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wccx
03-25-2008, 01:06 PM
This in an idea that I have had for a while, but never wanted to post because I wanted to hide it. I realized that was dumb and it was better to get suggestions and really get more serious with it.

The idea came from always liking rock decks in extended. The main problem was rock decks were not flexible enough. This was changed when Gifts Ungiven was put in to help give the deck more answers. I have attempted to make a legacy-competive deck off this stradegy.

Here is the decklist

/ Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [B] Bayou
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
4 [IN] Swamp (3)
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [RAV] Forest (3)
1 [B] Tropical Island
1 [4E] Island (1)
1 [U] Underground Sea
1 [TE] Wasteland
1 [UL] Treetop Village

// Creatures
2 [ON] Ravenous Baloth
4 [CHK] Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 [FD] Eternal Witness
4 [7E] Birds of Paradise
1 [JU] Genesis
1 [AP] Spiritmonger
1 [LRW] Shriekmaw

// Spells
1 [RAV] Putrefy
4 [7E] Duress
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [CHK] Gifts Ungiven
1 [JU] Cabal Therapy
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [LRW] Thoughtseize
1 [ON] Smother
1 [PLC] Extirpate
1 [PLC] Damnation

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [LRW] Shriekmaw
SB: 2 [ON] Smother
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [PLC] Damnation
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 [CHK] Cranial Extraction
SB: 1 [US] Arcane Laboratory

First unlike in extended, I kept in to 3 colors mainly in fear of wasteland and blood moon effects. Also it allows for important coloress lands:

Card Choices:
Lands:
Duals,fetches,basics- polluted dellta can fetch many important lands in your deck, allows you to work under Bob. basic island is for delta and Ste search etc. still trying out different fetch to dual ratios, but I don't feel windswept heath or bloodstained mire are needed right now.

Wasteland: As a 1 of for gifts, can get rid of any problem land like Maze of Ith, recurison lands like Academy ruins etc. Don't want more because of the three colors already.

treetop village: only one because of wasteland concerns and come inot play tapped. can go all the way if need though.

Volrath's stronghold: gives you a backup plan other than Witness/Genesis recurison, great with shriekmaw against thresh.

Creatures:
4 Bop: provides all colors and accelration, both important to the deck
Sakura Tribe Elder: provides speed bump against aggro. and accel/color fixing
3 Witness: great with gifts piles and good source of card advanatge. allows for late game locks. 4 is too many because they are bad in the early game.
1 Shrikemaw: new additon, great against tarmogoyfs, good in gifts piles, great with stronghold recursion, and not a bad attacker
3 Baloth: Great against burn decks, good blocker and solid attacker
1 Genesis: sets up great late game positon, not bad hardcast, great syngergy with gifts and witness
1 Spirtmonger: Very underrated imo. ends game quick, impossible to kill besides STP, wins against any creature stall.

Other Spells
Discard package: important to help force through your gifts, thoughtseize for goblins, 1 theprary to set up genesis.
mass removal: 4 deed because it is the best card in the deck, gets rid of everything, same with explosives. Dammation is good against goblins and great against dragon stompy. having 3 of these is good for gifts package.
smother/puefry: good cheap flexible removal along with shriekmaw sets up well for gifts
1 Expirate: helps win long games against similar decks, this spot is always iffy though.
1 Life from the Loam: sets up for recurison with wasteland and stronghold, great with Gifts, and good when you are manascrewed.

Sideboard:
4 Leyline: for dredge, breakfast, I always consider switching this though
4 Chalice: for storm combo/belcher best preemptive option, good for burn decks
1 Arcane Lab: for gifts piles in game 2, can be switched
1 Shirkemaw, 2 smother, 1 dammation extra removal for goblins and dragon stompy
1 expirate/cranial extraction: for some combo and other control decks

Matchups: This is based off of a good amount of testing on Magic league and mws.

Threshold: Maybe the reason to play this deck. the matchup is pretty good in your favor. You have many outs to CB + top, discard early to get through counters and plenty of removal for limited threats. They can sometimes just outempo you with goyf and counterspells but usually this is not the case.

Storm combo/Belcher: This is close, but I would put it in combos favor. If they don't go off on turn 1. you usually will win. But sometimes they will just win without you playing a spell

Dragon Stompy: Pretty good in your favor, you can play around their blood moon effects, and you have removal for their problem creatures. they might just have the god draw in turn 1 sphere into dragon turn 2, but you should be ok.

Goblins: This is closer than thresh because of Goblin Lackey, but I would still put it in yuor favor. Vial isn't the concern since it can be destroyed easily, their mana denial is bad against for the most part. Innocent Blood is a good card if you are afraid of goblins. If you win the die roll, you should win the match imo.

I will add mroe to this if people want me to, but this was just a general rundown of the deck. Hope you can help me with this deck and thank you for reading!

Hanni
03-26-2008, 02:16 AM
I've been seeing alot of decks lately that have been trying to mimic DAT (most likely not intentionally) and they all seem to be weaker versions. I'm not trying to stifle innovation in the least... but let me explain to you what I see wrong with this deck so far:

You run a large toolbox of cards that are typically narrow in function... without Gifts, your deck for the most part is not going to work very well, or at least nowhere near as well as it is supposed to work. So basically, your relying your deck upon 1 card (Gifts), which you have 4 of... and you have no additional draw, cantrip, library manipulation, or anything to find it.

I also see dysnergy bewteen some of your card choices... BoP is a great accel into Gifts, but what if you have Deed instead of Gifts and you need to use it? Yea, it's helping speed up using the Deed, but its still setting you back in mana production.

I also don't understand some of your card choices... why are you running 2 Ravenous Baloth, yet 0 Tarmogoyf? Tarmogoyf should be an automatic 4-of.

I addressed this before in another other similar thread, http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8967 ... if you are running Loam, you really should be running Cephalid Coliseum. Not only does it put Genesis (and Wonder, which I see your list is lacking) in the yard for you, it also generates very strong card quality and card advantage with Loam. I realize that you plan on utilizing Genesis + Witness instead... I'd still recommend fitting in Cephalid Coliseum, though.

I see other things as well... but for the most, the stuff I just addressed are my biggest concerns. The most important thing I am addressing is... what happens when you don't draw Gifts? That's the biggest reason why I think this deck is weaker than the DAT Thresh deck I've been working on... that deck can play entire games without ever drawing into any engine pieces and still play out effectively. It's kinda like Survival decks... those that are reliant on Survival tend to not do as well as those that aren't reliant on it.

Again, I'm not trying to burn down your deck idea or stifle innovation... I'm simply trying to help you build on the deck. Obviously, the DAT Thresh approach is not necessarily the best, or even funnest, way to build and play this sort of deck... for example, it may be better to pack more discard, like the way you are, rather than running FoW and Daze.

Anyways, good luck with your approach. I hope you consider some of the suggestions I've made... (like, please add Tarmogoyf, maybe even Sensei's Divining Top too).

(Oh, and if you're curious about the DAT Thresh decklist, there's a link to it in my sig)

Tog
03-26-2008, 02:58 AM
I'm a Survival player at heart. I love green card advantage engines. Thus, I loved playing Gifts Rock in Extended when it was viable. Hell, I even tried porting it over to Legacy. However, I just found that Survival did everything better. Most importantly, the Survival & Squee engine takes up less mana with the Genesis engine to fall back upon. Gifts Rock is an extremely mana hungry deck and Daze punishes your already mana intensive plays. If you've played Survival before, could you list some of the advantages Gifts Rock has above Survival variants?

~Tog

Hanni
03-26-2008, 03:28 AM
Gifts Rock is an extremely mana hungry deck and Daze punishes your already mana intensive plays?


My deck isn't Gifts Rock and his deck doesn't run Daze. So I am confused by what you mean.

My deck doesn't even run Gifts, it runs Intuition. I really didn't want to hijack wccx's thread by discussing DAT Thresh, but I'll answer your question.

I simply want to say that the reason I run Daze is because the deck is basically UGb Threshold but it removes CounterTop and some other elements in order to add board control elements and mid-late game engines. My deck is a hybrid deck. It is an aggro/control deck that shifts into (board) control mode mid-late game if necessary. This deck (Gifts Rock), on the other hand, isn't aggro/control, it's just (board) control.


However, I just found that Survival did everything better. Most importantly, the Survival & Squee engine takes up less mana with the Genesis engine to fall back upon.

If you've played Survival before, could you list some of the advantages Gifts Rock has above Survival variants?

Well, the problem with Survival is that it really isn't any more cost efficient. It costs 1G to play and then G to pitch the first guy and then G to pitch Squee to grab another guy. That's 1GGG to get the engine started. If you want to grab Genesis and pitch him, that's another GG.

With Intuition, you're paying 2U to grab Loam, Genesis, and Coliseum. After that, you are paying 1G to use Loam to grab Coliseum, then the land drop of Coliseum plus a U to use it to discard Genesis. So for 1GU + land drop, you're setting up the Genesis engine in DAT Thresh.

So I'm not really seeing a huge difference in mana costs, if any at all.

Then you want to know about the advatages and disadvantages...

With Survival, you are prone to enchantment hate, Pithing Needle, and graveyard hate (Extirpate specifically), whereas DAT Thresh is prone to graveyard hate (Extirpate specifically)... which is not to say that other cards don't affect DAT Thresh, just that those are what shut down the decks engine(s).

Survival typically plays out like a G/R/b Beats deck when it doesn't see Survival. DAT Thresh plays out like U/G/b Thresh when it doesn't see Intuition.

Survival utilizes black based disruption in Duress, Thoughtseize, and/or Cabal Therapy. DAT Thresh utilizes blue countermagic and discard in the form of Force, Daze, and Cabal Therapy (which could be Duress or Thoughtseize depending on preference).

Both decks should have adequate aggro, control, and aggro/control matchups, whereas I think DAT Thresh has the superior combo matchup.

Another thing that I like about DAT Thresh is that it utilizes board control elements in Deed maindeck with Explosives SB, whereas Survival can't really afford to play cards like Deed, or at least it cannot do so nearly as efficiently as DAT Thresh can.

Finally, I find DAT Thresh far more consistent than Survival since it runs 8 cantrips.

However, it all ends up as a personal preference. Obviously, Survival is a strong deck. It continues to place at events. My personal playstyle prefers DAT Thresh, which I also find to be a strong deck. However, no one plays it so it doesn't place at events.

On a final note, I have this misconception in my mind that blue is the strongest color in the format, and thusly I don't see a reason to not play blue. Plus blue is my favorite color in magic... I don't enjoy playing without Brainstorm and FoW.

I hope this answers your question(s).

Tog
03-26-2008, 04:15 AM
Well, the problem with Survival is that it really isn't any more cost efficient. It costs 1G to play and then G to pitch the first guy and then G to pitch Squee to grab another guy. That's 1GGG to get the engine started. If you want to grab Genesis and pitch him, that's another GG.

With Intuition, you're paying 2U to grab Loam, Genesis, and Coliseum. After that, you are paying 1G to use Loam to grab Coliseum, then the land drop of Coliseum plus a U to use it to discard Genesis. So for 1GU + land drop, you're setting up the Genesis engine in DAT Thresh.

So I'm not really seeing a huge difference in mana costs, if any at all.


Thanks for your quick response. I don't want to hijack the thread either so I'll keep it brief. Setting up Genesis might not take a lot of mana, but utilizing the engine does. Necroing up a dead creature itself usually takes up a whole turn early game and you need a large mana source to make a play and Genesis the same turn. It has been my experience that generating card advantage from the Survival based engine to be faster. For me, Gifts appeal lies in the variety of non-creature spells they can utilize.


My deck isn't Gifts Rock and his deck doesn't run Daze. So I am confused by what you mean.


As far as the Daze comment, it was directed toward wccx's list which runs Gifts Ungiven. I was just noting that playing around Daze can be problematic with the 4 cc spell in Gifts Ungiven, coupled with Genesis's mana thirst if the engine gets set up.

~Tog

Hanni
03-26-2008, 04:25 AM
Setting up Genesis might not take a lot of mana, but utilizing the engine does. Necroing up a dead creature itself usually takes up a whole turn early game and you need a large mana source to make a play and Genesis the same turn. It has been my experience that generating card advantage from the Survival based engine to be faster. For me, Gifts appeal lies in the variety of non-creature spells they can utilize.


With the control the deck applies, and Loam to make sure the deck is making land drops every turn when it isn't utilizing Coliseum, paying 2G for Genesis and then replaying a guy isn't a problem... remember that the majority of my creature base is 1cc and 2cc. My deck doesn't win by putting tons and tons of creatures into play anyway... if the game gets to the point where it's utilizing the engine, it wins by controlling the game state. A flying (via Wonder) Goyf can win the game in a few turns on his lonesome... a Tog can win the game in 1 turn. I don't really need 10 creatures in play to swing through a ground stalemate... plus, I have Deed to clear the way so that my 1 or 2 guys can go the distance, too (without the need for Wonder).

Basically, Survival is more aggro while DAT Thresh is more control.

Now, concerning the early game... by the time either the Genesis engine (or the Loam + Coliseum engine) in DAT Thresh is online, or by the time the Survival engine in Survival is online, its usually the midgame anyway, so it doesn't really matter... plus in DAT Thresh, it plays out like Threshold in the early game (and shouldn't need a recur engine). I can't think of many matchups where I need the Genesis engine online that early.

diffy
03-26-2008, 07:19 AM
You might want to have a look at this (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8226) thread for some inspiration - especially the Veteran Explorer tech is pretty good as it boosts you for nearly no investment and doesn't have dissynergy with your own sweepers (Pernicious Deed). Also, the effect is often one-sided as your opponents don't play many basics or can't use the excess mana as well as you can.

Here's my newest take on the archetype:



/// Maindeck (60 cards)

// Lands (23 + 1)
1 Maze of Ith (http://magiccards.info/dk/en/114.html)
1 Academy Ruins (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/269.html)
1 Volrath's Stronghold (http://magiccards.info/sh/en/137.html)
1 Wasteland (http://magiccards.info/tp/en/340.html)
1 Cephalid Coliseum (http://magiccards.info/od/en/317.html)
2 Forest (http://magiccards.info/apac1/en/1.html)
2 Snow-Covered Forest (http://magiccards.info/ia/en/347.html)
2 Swamp (http://magiccards.info/apac1/en/5.html)
1 Snow-Covered Swamp (http://magiccards.info/ia/en/351.html)
1 Island (http://magiccards.info/apac3/en/2.html)
2 Bayou (http://magiccards.info/be/en/279.html)
1 Tropical Island (http://magiccards.info/be/en/299.html)
4 Polluted Delta (http://magiccards.info/on/en/321.html)
2 Windswept Heath (http://magiccards.info/on/en/328.html)
1 Wooded Foothills (http://magiccards.info/on/en/330.html)

// Beaters (5)
4 Tarmogoyf (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/153.html)
1 Gigapede (http://magiccards.info/on/en/264.html)

// Stuff (10)
4 Cabal Therapy (http://magiccards.info/fnmp/en/60.html)
4 Veteran Explorer (http://magiccards.info/wl/en/86.html)
2 Garruk Wildspeaker (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/213.html)

// Engine (7)
1 Life from the Loam (http://magiccards.info/rav/en/172.html)
1 Regrowth (http://magiccards.info/be/en/123.html)
2 Eternal Witness (http://magiccards.info/5dn/en/86.html)
3 Gifts Ungiven (http://magiccards.info/chk/en/62.html)

// Removal (14+1)
4 Pernicious Deed (http://magiccards.info/ap/en/114.html)
2 Engineered Explosives (http://magiccards.info/5dn/en/118.html)
2 Innocent Blood (http://magiccards.info/od/en/145.html)
2 Ghastly Demise (http://magiccards.info/od/en/139.html)
2 Shriekmaw (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/139.html)
1 Chainer's Edict (http://magiccards.info/tr/en/57.html)
1 Damnation (http://magiccards.info/pc/en/85.html)

/// Sideboard (15 cards)
1 Darkheart Sliver (http://magiccards.info/pc/en/155.html)
1 Offalsnout (http://magiccards.info/mt/en/71.html)
1 Maze of Ith (http://magiccards.info/dk/en/114.html)
1 Life from the Loam (http://magiccards.info/rav/en/172.html)
1 Crucible of Worlds (http://magiccards.info/5dn/en/114.html)
1 Viridian Zealot (http://magiccards.info/ds/en/90.html)
2 Krosan Grip (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/202.html)
4 Engineered Plague (http://magiccards.info/ul/en/51.html)
3 Extirpate (http://magiccards.info/pc/en/71.html)


The deck plays out more like a BG control or Rockish deck when you don't have Gifts. The build is extremely streamlined with very few cards that aren't good when you don't have Gifts.
Also, the plenty of Basic Lands helps a great deal against all those decks that are currently preying on the metagame (Blood Moon, Back to Basics etc.).
The Blue-splash is only a very limited one for the 3 Gifts Ungiven which makes your deck run much smoother if compared to other variants like DAT: you don't need Gifts/Blue, it's just awesome if you have it.
Also, no Genesis is included because Volrath's Stronghold does the same thing in nine cases out of ten without costing you a slot. That you skip a draw is irrelevant mostly because you have more mana available during your turn (you can use Stronghold in the eot) and because the loss of a draw is compensated by the fact that you draw what you need in the current situation which creates virtual card advantage on its own.

The Blue-splash could be enlarged a little for additional Brainstorms though.

FredMaster
03-26-2008, 11:07 AM
What about replacing one Grip with a Trygon Predator in Sb? Helps you while playing Gifts, comes back with Stronghold and fists Staxx.

Hanni
03-26-2008, 01:54 PM
The Blue-splash is only a very limited one for the 3 Gifts Ungiven which makes your deck run much smoother

I'd still run 4 Gifts, not 3. Even if using a second Gifts is worthless to you, you can still use extras as Coliseum discard fodder if nothing else... and seeing Gifts at least once a game is obviously strong. Without any additional cantrip, dig, library manipulation, draw, etc to find it, I'd highly recommend running the full 4.


especially the Veteran Explorer tech is pretty good

In the more controllish slower version utilizing Gifts, I'd recommend Veteran Explorer over Birds of Paradise because it doesn't have dissynergy with Deed. Good call.


Also, no Genesis is included because Volrath's Stronghold does the same thing in nine cases out of ten without costing you a slot. That you skip a draw is irrelevant mostly because you have more mana available during your turn (you can use Stronghold in the eot) and because the loss of a draw is compensated by the fact that you draw what you need in the current situation which creates virtual card advantage on its own.


Well, it's not really virtual card advantage... it's card parity, since putting a card on top doesn't do anything but create card quality. With Genesis, you get the guy and still get the draw for a turn. I really dislike Volrath's Stronghold (or rather, I really like Genesis)... but with Gifts, it may be better in certain piles than Genesis is, so I don't know.


The Blue-splash could be enlarged a little for additional Brainstorms though.

I highly recommend that.

wccx
03-26-2008, 03:15 PM
Thank you everyone for the feedback

Hanni: the two cards that I will add for sure is CC and Top. Both will help the deck's card quality.
I looked at your decklist and even though there are simliarites, your deck seems more aggro control with moongose and tog, while I expect this deck to play the long game. I have been debating over Goyfs, but I have liked Baloth against the burn decks which I have played more than a few times. I am not saying you are wrong for liking goyfs in this deck but right now I still like Baloths.
The Veteran Explorer looks good, and it might replace Birds in the deck, but I have not ested the card yet.
As far as needing Gifts, I have tried to build the deck almost to make sure you live until yuo find a Gifts, with removal for aggro and discard for combo. I don't mind if I don't play a Gifts until turn 5-6, as long as I have stablized the game through my other cards.

Tog: Some advanatges to Gifts are it can only be discarded or countered, while Survival can be hit with Krosan Grip/Pithing Needle. Also you can't run deed, which makes Survival more vunerable to creature swarms or certain decks like Enchantress. Survival is still a very good CA engine though, it is partly personal preference.

Fredmaster: I didn't have any Grips but I am making room for at least one Preadator in the board, maybe more.

Any more feedback is apperciated.