[Deck] Dreadnought Affinity (AfFOWnity 2008)

[Lukas Preuss]

Newest list (September 4th, 2008):

// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [MR] Seat of the Synod
4 [MR] Vault of Whispers
4 [B] Underground Sea

// Creatures
4 [DS] Arcbound Ravager
4 [5E] Ornithopter
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 [FUT] Epochrasite
3 [DS] Arcbound Worker

// Spells
4 [FD] Cranial Plating
4 [VI] Vision Charm
4 [SC] Stifle
3 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [MR] Thoughtcast
3 [MR] Chrome Mox

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [FNM] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [A] Winter Orb
SB: 4 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void

Notable inclusions: Aether Vial, Dark Confidant and Epochrasite.

----------

Over a year ago, Rafael Truchado won the Open Legacy Madrid in Spain with a new twist on Affinity – AfFOWnity. The deck combined the explosiveness of Affinity with a few disruption cards like Force of Will and Chalice of the Void. Doug Lynn wrote about the deck in his first „European Developments“ article and for a short while, AfFOWnity was all the hype. Then Flash happened, and after it was gone, Tarmogoyf was the new undisputed king of Legacy (next to Jack Elgin of course). AfFOWnity was forgotten.

Then Wizards removed the errata on Phyrexian Dreadnought in July, making it work with cards like Trickbind and Stifle. Of course, designers all aroung the work started to break this new combo, and the Dreadstill deck is one of these decks that succesfully make use of the trampling 12/12 creature. One card that has been strangely overlooked by designers is Vision Charm. Surely, in a normal deck, it is much more narrow than Stifle or Trickbind, simply because it has no other useage as to phase out a Dreadnought, whereas the other two cards can actually counter triggered and activated abilities. But I quickly noticed the awesome synergy Vision Charm has with the whole Affinity archetype. Soon I started working on a new list of AfFOWnity that uses the Dreadnought combo:


#aYb.Dreadnought Affinity 2008 (Warning: outdated list)

// Lands
4 [MR] Seat of the Synod
4 [DS] Darksteel Citadel
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [PT] Island (4)

// Creatures
4 [AQ] Ornithopter
4 [MR] Frogmite
4 [DS] Arcbound Ravager
4 [DS] Arcbound Worker
4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought

// Spells
4 [FD] Cranial Plating
4 [MR] Thoughtcast
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [VI] Vision Charm

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [4E] Winter Orb
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 [10E] Pithing Needle


This list is actually very straight forward. It doesn't run any quirky one- or two-offs, it just wants to win as quick as posible while keeping the opponent from his resources and disrupting him. Let me just say that this deck is an awesome pile of synergy... most cards fulfill more than one role. And its ability to switch roles makes it very hard to play against. Your opponent just doesn't know if he will get overrun by an affinity army, or a 12/12 dreadnought. Is it good to counter the Cranial Plating? In addition to that, the deck runs a strong mana denial suite and some control elements (mainly FoW). Chalice of the Void has been moved to the board, simply because Dreadnought is much more broken and because the manabase no longer supports Ancient Tomb. Against combo, you bring Chalice in again. But let's look at the card by card analysis, before I go into details.

The manabase:
The 8 artifact lands are self explainatory. You need mana and artifacts to use the Affinity mechanic. These are an auto-include.
4 Wasteland: Combine these with Stifle (which is one of the strongest cards in the deck because of its multiple purposes) and you have a very strong mana denial plan. This deck is much faster than UGr Thrash, and runs the same mana denial. Go figure.Also, you only need one colored mana anyways, so Wasteland is rarely a hinderance to your own gameplan.
4 basic Islands: Well, you do need blue mana and Seat of the Synod is not enough. This is imune to Blood Moon and Wasteland, so it is a solid choice (note that the newest list runs Underground Sea to support the black splash).
3 Chrome Mox: You run 16 colored cards... enough to run Chrome Mox. Lately, Chrome Mox has been cut to three copies in favor of Aether Vial.
3 Aether Vial: You could run a 4/2 split between this and Chrome Mox as well, but I prefer the 3/3 split. Aether Vial is a great card, not only does it work as a mana fixer and is just sick against any form of Control and Conterbalance, it also combos with Dreadnought and Epochrasite. Awesome!

The creatures:
4 Ornithopter, 4 Frogmite, 4 Arcbound Ravager and 4 Arcbound Worker: This is the standard Affinity creature suite... Nothing surprising here, Myr Enforcer isn't run, because he is just a little too expensive (you only run 8 artifact lands while you need at least 12 to support him). Combined with Cranial Plating, these creatures can be a real pain in the ass for an unprepared opponent.
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought: The card that makes this build of Affinity special. With 8 cards that combo with it, you can reliably cast it when you draw it. If this hits the table and the opponent doesn't have a way to remove it, this spells GG. Even if you don't have Stifle or Vision Charm, you can still cast it to pump Ravager. The nice thing about this deck is that it doesn't rely on Dreadnought to win the game. Dreadnought just complements its game plan perfectly and makes this build of Affinity even more broken.
4 Dark Confidant: This is one of the best creatures in the game and a house in this deck... if the opponent isn't able to handle him, the card advantage will most likely be enough to win the game... Affinity is fast enough to make use of every extra card you draw. Also, even with Thoughtcast in the maindeck, the average mana cost isn't much higher than 1. Also this draw engine can carry Cranial Plating, which makes it a lethal thread, as well.
3 Epochrasite: Combos well with Aether Vial and the sac abilities of Ravager. Also, it laughs at Pernicious Deed, Nevinral's Disk and any other card that might be devastating otherwise.

Equipment:
4 Cranial Plating: Also standard in every build of Affinity. This wins just as many games as Dreadnought does, because it turns every creature into a dangerous threat.

The Blue (and black) Cards:
4 Stifle: The most versatily card in the deck. Wasteland+Stifle is a combo, Dreadnought+Stifle is a combo and it is an excellent card against storm combo, opposing Pernicious Deeds, etc.
4 Vision Charm: This not only combos with Dreadnought (obvious), but it has the ability to protect every permanent you run (including the vulnerable Dreadnough itself) from removal. Swords on my Ravager? Okay, cast Vision Charm in response and it phases out. Additionaly, if a creature is equiped by Cranial Plating and phases out, the Plating phases out, as well. This is a excellent way to protect both permanents (for example against Pernisious Deed or Engineered Explosives). Of course, the Charm has other uses as well. Occasionally, you can use it as mana denial if you turn his lands into useless basic lands of some type during his upkeep, but the Phasing ability is normally the most important.
4 Force of Will: Your main protection spell. You run 16 blue cards and this is enough to support FoW. Of course, if you have FoW, Chrome Mox and another blue card in hand, feel free to imprint it... but FoW makes your combo matchup much better and often suprises an unprepared opponent when you counter his key spell. Lately, FoW has been cut due to the card disadvantage.
4 Thoughtcast: Best draw spell for Affinity, makes sure that you don't run out of gas after you dropped your hand on the table.
Cabal Therapy: This is another potential disruption card for the deck. The high creature count makes sure that you can reliably use its flashback ability (this makes it stronger than Thoughtseize in this deck).


Sideboard:
This is off course especially for my meta, feel free to change some cards in the sideboard if you feel this is appropiate. But I think it is quite good as it is if you're playing in a competitive meta.
4 Tormod's Crypt: Ichorid is the most prevalent combo deck in my meta, this ensures the auto-win against them. Also, Life from the Loam is becoming more popular again, this helps to shut off their engine.
3 Winter Orb: This is the card against control. Together with Wasteland and Stifle, you can often keep them off their mana long enough to win. 3 is enough, because multiple don't really help you and if one hits the table, it is usually enough. You also have FoW to force it through opposing Countermagic.
4 Chalice of the Void: The card against storm combo and Belcher. Together with Stifle and FoW, this should win you the game without any problems.
4 Pithing Needle: Your answer to Pernicious Deed, Engineered Explosives, Manlands, Nevinyrall's Disk, Umezawa's Jitte, Survival of the Fittest, Charbelcher, whatever. A very good card to bring in against many decks.

Also possible cards for the Sideboard:
Umezawa's Jitte: Nice if you play in an aggro meta.
Spell Snare: If Counterbalance is a problem for you.
Etc.


Matchups:

UGR Threshold: This is a favorable matchup. If Dreadnought hits the table, they have close to no way removing it. Also, your mana denial plan is very good against most decks that rely on a somewhat shaky manabase... you can often keep them off green mana to slow them down long enough to win with Affinity beats.

UGW Threshold: Somewhat similar to UGR Threshold, but they run Swords to Plowshares, which is actually relevant removal against Dreadnought. If you have Both Stifle and Vision Charm in hand, Stifle the Dreadnought and use the Charm to protect it from removal. This is also, where your Affinity beatdown plan shines. You can also bait their removal with Arcbound Ravager, etc.

UGB Threshold: This is quite similar to UGW Threshold... watch out for their removal and kill them in the meantime.

UW Landstill: Quite good actually. You can often keep them off their white mana long enough win the game... after that you bring in 4 Needle and 3 Winter Orb.

UGB Landstill: Anything that runs Pernicious Deed in the maindeck is a bad matchup. Try to save your Stifles to counter the Deed activation... and try to win as fast as possible.

UBW Landstill: Lately, I playtested against UBW Landstill a lot. The games went something like 70% in my favor, but this has to be because I got lucky with the mana denial... I'm sure the matchup is much more like 50%. But the fact remains that Wasteland and Stifle, backed by a fast clock win the match. Also, they don't run Deed!

Belcher: A good matchup. Even if you don't have the Force of Will in your opening hand in game 1, you bring in Chalice of the Void and Needle after boarding and together with FoW and Stifle, this is enough to crush them.

TES: Worse than Belcher, but not unfavorable. Force their key spells and Stifle their storm. Bring in Chalice and try to win as fast as possible, before they can play around that.

Eva Green (BG Suicide): Game 1 is quite favorable, watch out for their Snuff Outs, but you should be able to hit them hard with Plated creatures and Ravager. Their hand destruction isn't very strong against you and you run indestructible lands and Chrome Mox. It gets worse if they board Pernicious Deed, but the matchup is still far from unwinnable.

Goblins: I actually haven't tested against this, because it is nearly unplayed in my meta. From what I know, this wasn't a very good matchup for the original AfFOWnity. With Dreadnought, this gets better, but you have to watch out for Goblin Tinkerer and Tin Street Hooligan. Still, a turn 1 or two Dreadnought should be enough to race them.

Its the Fear: Of course, this is a bad matchup, because of Pernicious Deed. But you mana denial can easily steal you a game or two. During tournaments, I played against ITF quite often lately (its become quite popular in Germany) and I often disrupted the opponent enough to win the game before I even knew what he was playing (only saw something like Tropical Island, Fetchlands, maybe Goyf). Afterwards I always felt really lucky... but it proves the point that Wasteland and Stifle can occasionaly just win the game against Control, even if you had no business winning those matches.


As you can see, this is actually a very solid deck. So I decided to bring it to two different tournaments this weekend. On Saturday I played at a small 14-man tournament (played Spell Snare over Needle in the board) in Düsseldorf, and on Sunday I brought it to the monthly Legacy event in Iserlohn (52 participants). I took third place in Düsseldorf and tenth place in Iserlohn (missing the T8 through tiebreakers).


Small report:

Düsseldorf:
Round 1 against UG Madness
During game 1 I cast a second turn Dreadnought with FoW backup. He can't do anything (casts Rootwalla or Mongrel) and we quickly go to game 2.
Here I have some mad Affinity beats with Ravager, Arcbound Worker and Frogmite. I put a lot of pressure on him and finally a Phyrexian Dreadnought seals the deal.
2-0

Round 2 against UW Landstill
During game 1 he is mana screwed and I Stifle his fetchland to keep it that way. A Ornithopter with Cranial Plating and a Frogmite go all the way.
In game 2, it's my turn to not hit any land drops and he takes advantage of this. I quickly scoop it up to him and proceed to game 3.
Game 3, I lay down a Winter Orb and have a Force of Will for his own. Then I cast Dreadnought, which he didn't expect and kill him shortly. I even had the Vision Charm to protect Dreadnought from Swords to Plowshares, but this wasn't even necessary.
2-1

Round 3 against Eva Green
This is the moment I hate myself for not playing Pithing Needle. Game 1 is easy for me. I put pressure on him with some early creatures which he manages to handle. Finally, I topdeck Dreadnought and it goes all the way. I win.
Game 2 and 3 are ugly. He has Jitte, Deed, etc. This finally convinced me to play Needle in Iserlohn the next day.
1-2

Round 4 against 2-Land Belcher
I keep a nice hand, but he combos of turn 1 and kills me. Too bad, but even without Pithing Needle, I shut be able to win this.
Game 2, I start with Chalice for 0 and Force his Belcher. I kill him a few turns later with some critters.
Game 3, I disrupt him in the early game. At some point he manages to play Empty the Warrens for ten tokens, but he makes a mistakes with his blockers, so I'm able to do some Affinity combat tricks and win.
2-1

With a record of 3-1, I am third place and win some boosters. Afterwards I eat a disgusting sandwich at the train station (called a „Humus Pocket“) and feel sick for the rest of the day. The Humus incident is actually pretty hilarious, and quite a number of people make fun of it with their decknames at the Iserlohn tournament... :)

Speaking of which, the next day I switch the Spell Snares in the board to Pithing Needles and the tournament begins on time at 11am.

Iserlohn:

Round 1 against Faerie Stompy
He plays a second turn Serendib Efreet, I play a second turn Phyrexian Dreadnought. He equips his Efreet with SoFI, and swings for some damage, I equip my Dreadnought with Cranial Plating and win turn 3 (he took some damage from his Ancient Tomb). Good times.
Game 2, I dump my hand on the table and start beating face with my Affinity beaters. He casts Trinisphere to prevent me from casting Dreadnought (which now effectivly costs 6 mana). I think about phasing out his Trinisphere at the end of his turn to cast Dreadnought, but then I just win the next turn without it.
2-0

Round 2 against Ichorid
Nice. He does some dredging, while I attack for some damage. Finally he has three bridges in the graveyard and is ready to combo off the next turn. I cast Dreadnought, he goes: „Stifle?“. And I'm like: „Nope.“. He looks at me with a blank face and I say: „I remove your bridges.“ He's like: „Oh... damn!“. Two turns later, I win the game.
Game 2 I bring in Tormod's Crypt and have the absolute mad Ravager, Ravager, Ravager, Chrome Mox, Blue card, Land, Tormod's Crypt hand. He can't do much to win against that.
2-0

Round 3 against Survival
Wasteland and Stifle keep him off his mana and I force his Survival. I win through some Affinity beats.
Game 2 he draws Krosan Grips, Engineered Explosives and Swords to Plowshares like mad and even gets them back through Eternal Witness. I lose horribly.
Game 3, I manage to cast an early Dreadnought. I force his Swords to Plowshares, and phase it out to protect it against another one. He still manages to get rid of it and stabilises. The game drags on for long and in the end, he wins. Well, this happens.
1-2

Round 4 against Loam Assault Aggro with Terravore
Game 1 I have some early creatures, but he manages to use Burning Wish to get Shattering Spree and clears my board. He gets Seismic Assault out and kills me in a few turns.
Game 2 I cast Dreadnought on turn 2. I hit for 12 and he topdecks Maze of Ith. Too bad for him that I topdeck Wasteland. I win.
The third game actually drags on for quite some time. I use Crypt to remove his graveyard at some point to stop his Life from the Loam engine but he is able to use his Maze of Ith to untap my Ravager all the time. At some point, Ravager carries three Cranial platings and is lethal, when I topdeck Stifle. He activates his Maze, I Stifle it. He discards all his lands through Seismic Assault to destroy Ravager, but I sac all my permanents to make it grow. It's exactly enough to win the game.
2-1

Round 5 against UBW Cunning Wish Landstill
I quickly get him down to 5 life when he casts Cunning Wish -> Pulse of the Field. He manages to stabilise and casts Humility. Shortly afterwards, I scoop it up.
The second game drags on forever, because I constantly put pressure on him and Winter Orb keeps him from using his lands. He always has solutions for my creatures, though and at some point I draw like 5 or 6 lands, which gives him enough time to nuke the board and win. Oh well, you can't win everything. :)
0-2

Round 6 against Dreadstill/Dreadnought Control
I kind of know what he is playing, but not exactly, so I stifle his fetchland. He is screwed after that and I manage to win shortly with a bunch of creatures and Cranial Plating.
Game 2, he casts Counterbalance on turn 2, I test it with Ornithopter. He reveals a Counterspell on top of his library and I cast Dreadnought+Stifle. He doesn't find an answer and loses.
2-0

4-2, tenth place.




So, third place out of 14 and tenth place out of 53. This is actually quite a good performance and shows that the deck is capable of being quite good in the metagame. It combines the explosiveness of Affinity and Dreadnought with Mana denial and Counterbackup, which leads to a very powerful package. The ability to switch roles makes it flexible, as well.

Try it out, you won't be disappointed. :)
I'm sure there is still room for improvement, eventhough the deck itself might be close to optimal. Any suggestions on how to further improve it are very much appreciated, of course!



P.S. My spell check function doesn't seem to work. If you find anything I should correct, just write me a PM.

[Holo_rip]

it may be just me but still...
did you already had problem with force or mox ?
cause well, for both you need a blue card, and maybe sometime you can be screwed and loose game due to that.
have you test a bit against dragon stompy too ?

Though, great deck, gonna test it today !
will post what i think can be improved, but it is a very solid base.

Holo.

edit :
some guys on MWS say that oracle text have change, and that we can't stifle dreadnought CIP effect, true or false ?

[YuanTi]

edit :
some guys on MWS say that oracle text have change, and that we can't stifle dreadnought CIP effect, true or false ?

False.

Tell them they're a week late.

This deck looks pretty good. I'll give it a test spin, and see how it goes. AFoWnity is better in the meta than regular Affinity, and with Dreadnought this easily could be better still.

[Zach Tartell]

edit :
some guys on MWS say that oracle text have change, and that we can't stifle dreadnought CIP effect, true or false ?

Make 'em a NOOB token, broseph. It works.

Solid write up. I actually don't think that 4 Dreadnought is too much here. Do you miss enforcer ever?

[BreathWeapon]

Dreadnought is cool and all, but how does cutting the deck's primary bomb in Chalice of the Void improve the match ups where Affownity was lacking? It seems like you weakened the combo and aggro-control match ups for a vulnerable threat that can't even be cast reliably due to U restraints and the pitch demands from Force of Will and Chrome Mox.

I'd be all over Ancient Tomb and Trinket Mage, just having 4 dreadnoughts doesn't make the 8 card investment of Stifle and Vision Charm that appealing.

[Ch@os]

Uh, and how does this deck protect his main-winoption? With 4 "Force" and some "Vision Charm"? I think this is not enough.

[raharu]

With the Mana-Denial plan brought to the forefront, why don't you play the Pithing Needles (or at least somenumber of them) in the main? Also, I don't think that the Chrome Moxen are the best idea either. Perhaps you could play Blinkmoth Nexuses in those slots? (although I would rather have more islands if your metagame s infested with Moon/ Back to Basics/ wastelock nonsense)

[Holo_rip]

With the Mana-Denial plan brought to the forefront, why don't you play the Pithing Needles (or at least somenumber of them) in the main? Also, I don't think that the Chrome Moxen are the best idea either. Perhaps you could play Blinkmoth Nexuses in those slots? (although I would rather have more islands if your metagame s infested with Moon/ Back to Basics/ wastelock nonsense)

in the moxen slot, i've think of this :

Springleaf Drum

seem good to me, can use creature when they have summon sickness and all. but one thing that annoy me is his casting cost of 1 =/

Holo.

[cRUMMYdUMMY]

Like Holo asked, is Chrome Mox worth running over Springleaf Drum considering the card disadvantage?

Is 4 Dreadnoughts too many? I can't imagine that it would be considering you have 8 ways to get them into play.


Uh, and how does this deck protect his main-winoption? With 4 "Force" and some "Vision Charm"? I think this is not enough.

This is Affinity, he can win through Dreadnought/Ravager/Plating. Any one of the three is good enough.

[Mister Agent]

I actually love the deck Lukas it seems pretty awesome.

I have an question for you I was wondering if this deck could incorporate the counterbalance + sensei's top or is that just win more?

Other then that there isn't really that much you can do with the mainboard although the sideboard could be tinkered with depending on meta. Considering you probably could fit in four propogandas in the board for the goblin match as well.

I should really try out this deck and playing with dreadnought in an affinity deck could really make affinity in general go over the top. Dreadnought is like the tarmogoyf for affinity.

[YuanTi]

in the moxen slot, i've think of this :

Springleaf Drum

seem good to me, can use creature when they have summon sickness and all. but one thing that annoy me is his casting cost of 1 =/

Holo.

Definitely better than the mox IMO, as it takes the pressure off having a blue card in hand, which does not always happen.


I have an question for you I was wondering if this deck could incorporate the counterbalance + sensei's top or is that just win more?

With only 12 sources of blue mana its not nearly reliable enough to get it out. This deck really wants to be taking an aggro role, and just uses FoW to stop itself from dying to combo.


Other then that there isn't really that much you can do with the mainboard although the sideboard could be tinkered with depending on meta. Considering you probably could fit in four propogandas in the board for the goblin match as well.

Propaganda, Chill, Crypt, Winter Orb, Chalice, Needle and BEB seem to be the most obvious choices for the board.

One question I've got is whether Darksteel Citadel could be swapped for Vault of Whispers for that Disciple of the vault dork. That, or Great Furnace for Fling, which is great with 'nought when you haven't a Stifle/Charm.

[Mister Agent]

Yeah I thought the counterbalance + top wouldn't work that well in here initially but just wanted to point that out to lukas since I have seen some pretty good stiflenought decks play with countertop.

Chill isn't really that good against goblins I have seen compotent goblin players play around chill with ease. But BEB is of course pretty good against everything that has red. But you have to remember since this is an wide-range format especially where lukas is playing making your board dedicated for the goblin matchup isn't a good plan at all.

[YuanTi]

Chill is a personal favourite of mine that I probably should stop suggesting. :p

Unlike the most common Stiflenaught deck (Dreadstill) this deck is always after an explosive start, and so Counterbalance will usually be a dead card here.

[Mister Agent]

Chill is a personal favourite of mine that I probably should stop suggesting. :p

Unlike the most common Stiflenaught deck (Dreadstill) this deck is always after an explosive start, and so Counterbalance will usually be a dead card here.

Yeah well it really depends on where you want to go with the deck but just wanted to throw that out there since Lukas usually plays against every landstill deck imaginable. Landstill is a popular deck in germany. In other words, countertop might be of some importance in his meta since that combo can be successful against landstill. However, I am sure Lukas will make the necassary adjustments to make his affinity deck as strong as it can be in his meta.

Oh by the way I like chill alot too it has always been one of my favorite cards as well.

[Rood]

I have to agree with you guys, Chill is a beating like no other. With Husher coming out soon though, I think it may be wiser to go with BEB.

[Lukas Preuss]

Well, thank you for your criticism and your suggestions.


did you already had problem with force or mox ?
cause well, for both you need a blue card, and maybe sometime you can be screwed and loose game due to that.
Yes, I'm well aware of this argument and it has been discussed ever since AfFOWnity first started to T8 in Spain. Actually, 16 blue cards is enough to support both Chrome Mox and FoW. During my tournaments, I never had a situation where I was manascrewed because of this. It doesn't take away from the consitancy of the deck. Of course, this is not Threshold, where you always have FoW and a blue card... this deck has a much better aggro role than Threshold, so having to rely on major counterbackup isn't necessary. Try it out and let me know what you think... I am convinced that 16 blue cards is enough to run both Chrome Mox and FoW effectively in this deck.


have you test a bit against dragon stompy too ?
I haven't tested much against Dragon Stompy, but I wouldn't think that it is such a bad matchup. As far as I know, Dragon Stompy's main strenghth is the Blood Moon package and Blood Moon isn't an issue for this deck for quite a few reasons:
- Artifact lands are still artifacts under Blood Moon, so this has no influence on the Affinity mechanic
- You run 4 Basic Islands and 4 Chrome Mox... enough mana sources to ensure one blue mana
- You never need more than one blue mana anyways.

Other than that, you're creatures are just as big as theirs and if Dreadnought resolves, they have a hard time with it. I assume that this matchup isn't very favorable due to their ability to set Chalice at one (and two) very fast, but it is far from unwinnable.


Do you miss enforcer ever?
No, I cut it pretty early and never looked back. Dreadnought is a much better creature and in this deck, you can cast it much more often than you can cast the Enforcer. Enforcer is only good if you have a huge number of artifacts on the table (at which point you should already be winning). Dreadnought is very good on it's own and comes out much faster than enforcer.


Dreadnought is cool and all, but how does cutting the deck's primary bomb in Chalice of the Void improve the match ups where Affownity was lacking? It seems like you weakened the combo and aggro-control match ups for a vulnerable threat that can't even be cast reliably due to U restraints and the pitch demands from Force of Will and Chrome Mox.
Well, there's a very wrong assumption. You can cast Dreadnought as reliable as it gets. I never had a problem with a dead Dreadnought in my hand... You don't even have to hesitate to throw away you first Vision Charm/Stifle into a Chrome Mox, because you will still be able to put enough pressure on the opponent to draw into another combo piece to cast Dreadnought. And please, you don't have to focus primarely on that 12/12 creature. Often you just cast Chrome Mox, Land, Ornithopter, and then beat face with Cranial Plating. This is Affinity after all... Dreadnought just gives the deck another truly impressive and strong creature.

And the Combo and Aggro-Control matchups are not weakened. Chalice isn't as strong as it used to be and I'd happily play Dreadnought over it any time. Just remember that an unanswered Dreadnought means gg in a very short time. And even if they are able to handle it, you have enough Affinity to win the game.


With the Mana-Denial plan brought to the forefront, why don't you play the Pithing Needles (or at least somenumber of them) in the main? Also, I don't think that the Chrome Moxen are the best idea either. Perhaps you could play Blinkmoth Nexuses in those slots?
Using Pithing Needle as a mana denial card is actually not such a good plan... it seldom works and in many matchps, I'd rather have an offensive card than a defensive card that could possibly help the mana denial plan. Remember, you often just need to screw the opponent for a turn or two to win from the speed advantage.
Chrome Mox is very important for speeding up the deck and being immune to the opponent's Wasteland. You have 4 Chrome Mox, 4 indestructible lands and 4 basic islands. You have a very save mana base. Also, Blinkmoth Nexus doesn't produce blue mana... you need the 12 blue mana sources you're running to consistantly support the Dreadnought combo and Thoughtcast.


in the moxen slot, i've think of this :

Springleaf Drum
Thanks for the suggestion, but this is actually not a very good idea. This deck is different from the other builds of Affinity that can make use of Springleaf drum. First of all, they use it as a mana fixer, whereas this deck only needs blue mana. This deck doesn't run as many creatures as traditional Affinity, and its creatures are much better. I would never want to tap Ravager, Dreadnought, etc. to make mana. I want to put pressure on my opponent. And Chrome Mox does this by speeding the deck up by a full turn. This was important in the old builds of AfFOWnity and it gets even more important with the more aggressive plan this deck is running. During testing, I actually had a turn two win with this deck (possible but just as unlikely as the Dragon Stompy turn 2 win*)... Chrome Mox is insane acceleration. The card disadvantage isn't actually that bad - you often have enough blue combo cards to pitch one to Chrome Mox and Thoughtcast works almost like Ancestral Recall in this deck.

*It went like this: I am on the draw and keep a hand of: Chrome Mox, artifact Land, blue card, Vision Charm, Dreadnought, Frogmite/Ornithopter/any cheap artifact, Cranial Plating.
I draw another artifact land and play Chrome Mox, Land, Dreadnought, Vision Charm.
On my second turn, I draw just another cheap artifact (I think it was another Chrome Mox) and play Land, Plating, the Frogmite and the last artifact from my hand. I now have 7 artifacts on the table. I equip Plating to Dreadnought and swing for 19 damage. This was enough to finish my opponent off.


I have an question for you I was wondering if this deck could incorporate the counterbalance + sensei's top or is that just win more?
I tested this for a few games, but it is impossible to squeeze Counterbalance into this deck... you're very light on mana and only able to support cards with a single blue mana in the casting cost. UU is impossible for this deck to reliably accomplish. Also, the Counterbalance engine is probably too slow for this deck.


One question I've got is whether Darksteel Citadel could be swapped for Vault of Whispers for that Disciple of the vault dork. That, or Great Furnace for Fling, which is great with 'nought when you haven't a Stifle/Charm.
Well, you *could* do that, sure. But I don't recommend it. Disciple of the Vault is certainly a very strong card and Fling comboes well with Dreadnought (also not as good as Vision Charm and Stifle), but you'd have to take out one of the blue cards in the deck (don't really want to run less artifacts in Affinity). And the blue cards are 1. needed to reliably cast Chrome Mox for useful mana and 2. better then those two alternatives.


I hope I was able to answer all your questions!

[AngryTroll]

If you phase out a Ravager with a bunch of counters on it, does it return to play with them still on it?

I really like the look of the deck. The low blue card count is a little alarming with both Mox and Force, but if you say that it's high enough, I'll at least test it.

Putting Stifle-Naught into a deck that doesn't rely on it as the main win condition is pretty impressive. Your must counter/Swords spells are Ravager, Plating, and Dreadnaught/Stifle/Vision Charm. You also run the mana disruption of two color Thresh, with a much faster clock to back it up.

When do you board Chalice of the Void? Do you board out Charm-Naught and board in Chalice against some decks?

[KillemallCFH]

I've been testing this deck on MWS a bit, and I have a few thoughts.

First, and I know this has been mentioned many times already, I do feel the blue count is a little low. I'll keep testing as is though; maybe it is just due to bad luck or play mistakes that I feel that way.

Second, and I'm sure you've already considered/tested it, but how do you feel about Vial? I know you don't need the color fixing like 3c Vial Affinity but it makes one-land hands more keepable, allows for combat tricks, and gives you another way to get Dreadnought into play. I don't really think there is any space for it, but I'd figure I'd mention it anyways.

[xsockmonkeyx]

If you phase out a Ravager with a bunch of counters on it, does it return to play with them still on it?




Phased-out cards "remember" their past histories and will return to play in the same state. They "remember" any counters they had on them, any choices made when they first came into play, whether they were flipped when they left play, and whether they were tapped or untapped when they left play. They also "remember" who controlled them when they phased out, although they may phase in under the control of a different player if a control effect with limited duration has expired.

I think that's current.

[Lego]

Remember that Chrome Mox can act as a "mana" without imprinting a card. It's not like Mox Diamond.

Also, the original build ran Somber Hoverguard as a flier and a blue card. Did you test him at all? If you're finding the blue count too light, he might be okay in the Ornithopter slot. I have no idea though... I haven't played Affinity in Legacy Fling-Atog back in the day :)

[Lukas Preuss]

If you phase out a Ravager with a bunch of counters on it, does it return to play with them still on it?
Yes, it does... Seriously, Phasing your own creatures doesn't have a downside (except for not having anything to block your opponent's creatures until your next turn). It's as if Phasing was made for Affinity... ;)


When do you board Chalice of the Void? Do you board out Charm-Naught and board in Chalice against some decks?
I usually only board Chalice against combo (TES, SI, Belcher) to counter their 0 cc spells (when I do that, I tend to take out some number of Ornithopters, because you don't actually need evasion against combo and it will get countered by Chalice if you draw it later). I have been taking out the Dreadnought combo against decks with a lot of spotremoval sometimes, but since Dreadnought is usually a superb threat with a relatively low investement (one card), it's the best creature you have.


First, and I know this has been mentioned many times already, I do feel the blue count is a little low. I'll keep testing as is though; maybe it is just due to bad luck or play mistakes that I feel that way.
As L_A_M mentiones, you don't always need a blue card to cast Chrome Mox. If you have something like: Land, Chrome Mox, Chrome Mox, Ornithopter, Arcbound Worker, Frogmite, Cranial Plating in your opening hand, you can still cast most of it on your first turn, even if you don't draw into another land or a blue card. And as soon as you draw into a blue card or a land (very likely), Cranial Plating hits play and you have a very impressive board. Chrome Mox is almost never dead, with a blue card, it speeds up the deck, without one it is still good as it enables Affinity fast, puts a counter on Arcbound Ravager or gives Cranial Plating +1.


Also, the original build ran Somber Hoverguard as a flier and a blue card. Did you test him at all? If you're finding the blue count too light, he might be okay in the Ornithopter slot.
A good suggestion. I have already tried Somber Hoverguard in that slot, but it is actually very hard to add more blue cards to the deck, without weakening the Affinity mechanic. This is important, and I thin this needs to be understood since the low blue count has been the most criticised aspect about the decklist.
In the Vial Affinity thread, Eldariel made a very important point when he explained that running Goyf in Affinity is dangerous since you don't want to go under 40 artifacts in that deck. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=210235&postcount=408)
He is right that you need around 40 artifacts to keep the deck running smoothly. Well, Dreadnought Affinity runs only 36 artifacts right now (partly because the mono colored manabase runs basic Islands and Wastelands, whereas standard Affnity runs more artifact lands). You actually can't afford to cut more artifacts to fit in some more blue cards. This would'nt make the deck more consistent, on the contrary, it would function less optimal. No matter how you did it. Of course, you could cut lands, but this wouldn't be a smart move to be less mana screwed, would it? :)

[Nihil Credo]

If the card itself didn't blow so much, Sarcomite Myr would be great to pad both the artifact and the Blue count.

A less janky way to pad up the deck's engines (Affinity/FoW) could be replacing the Wasteland with four artifact lands, and then fitting the Hoverguards in. I bet you'd be giving up too much power, but having not played the deck I can't be sure of it.

[adrieng]

I didn't tested the deck but once on mws i played against a similar build but with a red splash for fling.
Fling seems to be awesome both with affinity(cranial plating) and with dreadnought .The man ; on the other side was not playing vision charm.

[Bane of the Living]

If the card itself didn't blow so much, Sarcomite Myr would be great to pad both the artifact and the Blue count.

A less janky way to pad up the deck's engines (Affinity/FoW) could be replacing the Wasteland with four artifact lands, and then fitting the Hoverguards in. I bet you'd be giving up too much power, but having not played the deck I can't be sure of it.

Ive tested this guy when I was running AfFOWnity and surprisingly he wasnt awfull. He's not exactly a Ravager or Nought of a threat but he's what you needed him to be. A blue card for Force, a blue card for Mox and it helps you keep affinity in the deck. It flyings with Plating on it and it replaces itself when it dies.

[Le Grand Macabre]

The Deck works impressively! In the tests i made it seemed much more stronger than the old AfFoWnity.

[ssilver]

Problems I have found, is getting two lands, which this deck really wants. Testing against other MWS decks (not optimal, but good for gold-fishing nonetheless) I usually find myself wishing that wasteland was another artifact land, and I can't pop it unless I have another land to drop.

[Lukas Preuss]

Ive tested this guy when I was running AfFOWnity and surprisingly he wasnt awfull. He's not exactly a Ravager or Nought of a threat but he's what you needed him to be. A blue card for Force, a blue card for Mox and it helps you keep affinity in the deck. It flyings with Plating on it and it replaces itself when it dies.
Well, Sarcomite Myr is an interesting idea, but I think, it is hard to support it in this build of AfFOWnity. The original list ran Ancient Tomb, which made it much more possible to cast the Myr. With this list, you only run 16 lands, and as people pointed out already, the mana base is quite tight as it is. I don't think you can afford to run a 3cc creature without changes in the manabase. I'd be glad to get more suggestions from you, though. I know you put a lot of work into AfFOWnity last year.


Problems I have found, is getting two lands, which this deck really wants. Testing against other MWS decks (not optimal, but good for gold-fishing nonetheless) I usually find myself wishing that wasteland was another artifact land, and I can't pop it unless I have another land to drop.
Yes, Wasteland sometimes has to act as a manasource instead of a land destruction method. This doesn't make it a bad card, though. Think of it as just a colorless land (which isn't a huge drawback, because you only need one blue mana anyway) with a very useful ability that can be used in most cases. But be careful not to screw yourself with Wasteland. :)


Anyways, I have not been able to do further testing, because the university has been keeping me busy for the past few days. I will try to get more results on matchups such as Dragon Stompy asap.

[Clark Kant]

Affinity decks have long ran Fling due the ability to deal massive lethal damage with it with Ravager and Cranial Plating.

Fling also combos with Dreadnought to deal 12 points of damage.

I'm wondering if it might be worth it to play red in this deck like traditional affinity builds, and play Fling in place of some, or all of either Stifle or Vision Charm.

This involves replacing Wastelands with Ancient Den, but that was something you guys were already considering to beef up the affinity mechanic.

[Sims]

I played the deck to a rather unimpressive 1-2-1 at the tournament in Hadley on the 19th... Here were some things I noted along the day:

The deck felt like it needed some form of removal, so I took to running Echoing Truth in the board. This helped in quite a few games that I didn't have any real way of getting dangerous permanents off the board, ala Chalice for 1, which hurts this deck. That reminds me.... Dragon Stompy matchup is veryyyy swingy... If they get an early Trini or Chali at 1 that you can't stop, it makes it difficult to keep pushing in. Chalice also set at 2 to stop bounce effects from the board also hurts. However, being able to stifle chrome mox imprints and then waste away 2 mana lands is great for keeping them down, but again, if you can't stop the early Trini/Chalice it makes the matchup a very hard uphill battle. One of my losses on the day was to Dragon Stompy, but on the other hand I won the very next round against Dragon Stompy... So yeah, Swingy Match is Swingy.

The second loss was to BGW Rock-styled deck... The reasons behind this should be obvious when you learn that the deck ran Hierarch, Deed, Crime/Punishment, STP, and Deed. Needles can stem off some of that tide, but unfortunately it's also an uphill battle to get past all the sweepers.

The draw was to Matt P, our own Peter_Rotten, who was playing a modified UGW Thresh list..... And yeah, I don't know how it happened either. Game 2 seriously took like 35 minutes.

Fun time, even being in the not doing so hot bracket, and I know there were misplays on my part. But all in all was still a great and fun day.

[Sharp]

I have recently started playing this deck and made a few tweaks to it to add fling to the deck as a form of removal. I replaced the wastelands with Great Furnace as I found from playtesting that I was reluctant to pop my wastelands with the small mana count in the deck. Also I replaced the Islands with Volcanic Island to help aid Fling.

The low amount of blue cards to activate FOW did not seem like a large problem as I usually had a Stifle or Vision Charm floating in my hand. Also an imprinted Chrome Mox helped when a Wasteland hit the board. I was criticized that Blood Moon would be an issue but I have not really had trouble with the card as it did not hit the board fast enough to have a large impact on the nonbasic lands.

The Fling adds needed removal to the deck and it still ran very smoothly with either a Dreadnought or Ravager fling for the final blow or as a source of large creature removal.

[Sims]

Fling is all well and good, but I really am not hip to the idea of having to throw my workers and froggies at other creatures as removal.... I'd rather be throwing those critters, more importantly a tapped 'nought or ravager, at the opponents head to win the game.

If you are playing into a different color, there are probably better removal options to consider along with getting decent sideboard options from said splash color, than going with red for just fling.

[Clark Kant]

You only use it as removal when you are absolutely desperate and would otherwise lose the game without dealing with a threat.

Most of the time, you use Fling as a finishing blow comboing with either Dreadnought, Ravager, or the equipped guy.

It also means that you have can get away with devoting less than eight slots of this deck to Stifle and Vision Charm which can be janky without a Dreadnought in hand.

[Sims]

Stifle is almost never dead, and vision charm actually isn't really that bad. I've never used it's mill mode, but phasing out a critter that's about to get STP'd or bolted to save it helped in a match as did stifling chrome mox triggers and fetchlands.

Even just using Echoing Truth as a temporary removal spell that pitches to chrome/force in your primary color helps enough to swing games. But if you wanna splash in for fling, feel free.


Edit: Also, I just wanted to say, that if you're going to splash I think white or black would be better colors. Black gives you solid removal as well as Disciple of the Vault for an added threat that really needs to be countered or it'll go all the way with life loss associated with Ravager. White gives you Swords to Plowshares, access to Meddling Mage, or even O.Ring for those harder to remove permanents. I think those options are stronger than fling basically just as a finisher.

[Jsang]

One question about this deck confuse me while piloting this deck. When I use Vision Charm to phrase out Dreadnought when it just comes into play, do I need to sac my own creatures? I think I need as the dreadnought trigger ability will resolve and the option for sac the dreadnought will be no longer available.

If we still need to sac creature(s) for the dreadnought, though not as many as originally required , the combo is not good enough.

[Sharp]

With the new set coming out black seems like a real good color to add to this deck because of the new card Rite of Consumption. It is not as good as fling as it is a sorcery and it has less targets, but it does allow you to have a crappy fling and Disiple of the Vault in the deck.

[Sims]

One question about this deck confuse me while piloting this deck. When I use Vision Charm to phrase out Dreadnought when it just comes into play, do I need to sac my own creatures? I think I need as the dreadnought trigger ability will resolve and the option for sac the dreadnought will be no longer available.

If we still need to sac creature(s) for the dreadnought, though not as many as originally required , the combo is not good enough.


Ability goes on the stack, you vision charm the nought, charm resolves and nought phases, you chose the "sac dreadnought" option when it's ability resolves, and since dreadnought is no longer 'in play' you don't have to sacrifice anything.

[odabella]

But only this 'Virtual Judge' on StarCityGames.com makes me feel unconfident about this issue:


Q: If I play Phyrexian Dreadnought and then, while the triggered ability is on the stack, play Vision Charm, making Phyrexian Dreadnought phase out, what would happen with the triggered ability?

A: It will still resolve, and you will have to sacrifice creatures with a combined power of 12 or greater if you have them, or at least sacrifice as much as possible. The fact that the Dreadnought is not in play does not matter, other than the fact that you will not, and cannot, sacrifice the Dreadnought, even if you cannot sacrifice enough creatures.


Is there a part of the rules or an official statement I can refer to if I have to argue with a player or a judge?

[Bahamuth]

But only this 'Virtual Judge' on StarCityGames.com makes me feel unconfident about this issue:



Is there a part of the rules or an official statement I can refer to if I have to argue with a player or a judge?

I'm pretty sure this judge is wrong. With the ability on the stack, the Dreadnought is removed from play. Then the ability resolves, and you get to choose to either sacrifice enough creatures, or to let the Dreadnought die. If you choose the latter, the Dreadnought should die, but since it isn't in play, it won't and nothing happens.

[Nihil Credo]

When Phyrexian Dreadnought comes into play, sacrifice it unless you sacrifice any number of creatures with total power 12 or greater.

The 'default' option is to sacrifice the Dreadnought. You can't be forced to sacrifice 12 power worth of creatures.

Moreover, there's no option to sacrifice less than 12 power.

[Sims]

But only this 'Virtual Judge' on StarCityGames.com makes me feel unconfident about this issue:



Is there a part of the rules or an official statement I can refer to if I have to argue with a player or a judge?


Yeah, We can get Anusien or Akki to actually lay down the official ruling from the Comp rules to clarify... But there are so many things wrong with that statement on VirtualJudge. Sacrificing less than 12 is not even an option, it's either the 'nought or 12 power. With the 'nought phased out, opting not to sacrifice 12 power worth of critters would trigger for the 'nought to be sacrificed, but since it's not in play anymore, the ability "fizzles" so to speak. But we can post this down in the rules section or try and get Akki or Anusien's attention for the rules post.

[odabella]

Ok, to get sure I just have posted it in the Rules section.:wink:

[Shriekmaw]

I've recently looked into this list and it seems like a very good consistent deck to take into a big tournament.

I was wondering if Arcbound Worker is strickly better in a deck like this rather than Somber Hoverguard. The hoverguard seems like a better choice which also gives you another blue card to pitch to force and mox.

The only change I've made to the main deck is adding hoverguard for arcbound worker. Let me know what some of the others think about this deck.

Take Care.

[Sims]

I don't really like that move simply because your artifact count is low (for affinity) as it is. When I played this in Hadley last month, there was literally no occasions where I would have gotten a Hoverguard out early (especially without Worker as a cheap artifact for Affinity count) as opposed to having at least a 1/1 there to soak up a block or fuel a Plating/thopter. The little guy may only be a 1/1, but the fact that he is an artifact and has modular really makes him a pretty hefty mainstay. Perhaps not strictly better than Hoverguard, but I don't think Somber and Worker in this case are exclusive to one another.... If I were to add Hoverguards I'd try to find room elsewhere, I really don't think Worker's slot is the best fit.

[Lukas Preuss]

I agree with CA on this topic... the artifact count of this deck is exceptionally low for an Affinity deck. It is really difficult to cut artifacts and still keep the Affinity mechanic strong. That`s one of the problems this deck has - the delicate balance between its blue cards and its artifacts... you need at least 16 blue cards to support FoW and Chrome Mox and you need at least 36 artifacts for Affinity. You can`t really afford to cut either one without seriously affecting the deck.

Also, just for the record: Yes, you can use Vision Charm top put Dreadnought into the game...

Edit: I agree that Arcbound Worker is one of the weakest cards in the maindeck, though. In game 2&3 I usually board some number of them out to bring in other artifacts like Pithing Needle or Tormod`s Crypt.

[Shriekmaw]

I was wondering if anyone has played this deck recentely and could give a more updated analysis of the current matchups in the legacy meta game.

I would really appreciate it, because I think this deck is very explosive and a blast to play since I'm a big fan of Affinity in general.

Thanks.

[Vacrix]

i think that trinket mage would be an excellent choice here. it allows you to fetch out the dreadnought when u want to win, and it lets you fetch out the pithing needle to deal with your biggest problems, being EE, deed, etc. pithing needle is mvp against alot of shit like survival and rock variants with deed. you will have trouble against those if u cant find a fast needle.

i think that breathweapon mentioned alot earlier that ancient tombs mite be a good idea. it would help u support mage via, island, ancient tomb, mage, or chrome mox, ancient tomb, mage, on turn 2. i think that having that extra 2 mite also help to support myr enforcer possibly? maybe.. and ancient tombs/city of traitors mite also allow for variants with mainboard chalice or something casted at 1, or something.. that hurts your game a little but it completely rapes others and shouldnt be overlooked as possibly 'too hibiting' to your own game. you can win through a chalice 1.


i think that vision charm is cool. i think that the mana denial aspect of the game is going to be overlooked by players who havent played the match up before. however, maybe a variant can be tested with a crucible/wasteland lock. to embrace the mana denial aspect of the deck even more so.

[Vacrix]

i had a couple more ideas for this..

i feel like dark steel citadel is begging to be replaced. its only good against wasteland locks, and adding to the artifact count for affinty/plating. i think that you could run tree of tales in its place, which could function as a splash for tarmogofy's, and then run trops instead of islands. tarmogoyf is always strong, and would be a nice beater in addition to the affinity beats and the dreadnought. it also keeps the artifact land count at the same place for affinty/plating. but if u want more land distruption, then rishidan port might be a nice choice.

also, i know its random, but quicksilver fountain is a nice land distruption card. mite work nicely against aggro, and you can put them on your own lands too cause you have artifact lands and such.


also, has thoughtcast ever been better than a brainstorm or a ponder? i think that one of those is a much stronger choice over the thoughtcast. especially if you are trying to recover from a deed or EE.

and if this deck would appreciate the addition of phyrexian walker + plating. more 0 mana critters are always acceptable in this. maybe run over arcbound worker??


and i think that this deck could work in a possible counter top SB or even a erayo board. but i dont think its necessary since you dont have a problem with those match-ups.

i really like this deck...

[Bane of the Living]

This deck has a great goblins matchup. Just thought Id point that out to anyone trolling through the thread still. I did alot of testing against it and went like 15-3.

You clog up the ground with cheap bots while a Dreadnought essembles itself and beats for the win usually. The tutorable artifact destruction wasn't a problem since you have so many threats anyways, let alone Vision Charm. Wort was the only thing I was having issues with. I don't have removal for it. Thoughts?

[Sims]

This deck has a great goblins matchup. Just thought Id point that out to anyone trolling through the thread still. I did alot of testing against it and went like 15-3.

You clog up the ground with cheap bots while a Dreadnought essembles itself and beats for the win usually. The tutorable artifact destruction wasn't a problem since you have so many threats anyways, let alone Vision Charm. Wort was the only thing I was having issues with. I don't have removal for it. Thoughts?


Without wanting to splash into a color, I had been running Echoing Truth in the sideboard as a temporary solution to cards like Wort, as with E.o.T bounce, you get two turns before she becomes active. It's not a great solution, but buying time I think is the best that can be done without splash colors.... That is unless you wanna run Psionic Blast as removal.

[Mordenkaynen]

Well, a narrow choice to get rid of Wort is blue el. blast. But it's tooooo narrow while aggro matches are good. Hehe it improves imperial servant match) which can be bad. Does it counter only the first copy of Spree or all of them?

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Only the first, all the copies are effectively seperate spells.

[Natthew]

A stifle, however, could work like a counterspell against a spree's replicate. Perhaps this could be a case for adding trickbind?
EDIT: Is pithing needle maindeck for spree a bad idea? What are the the other removal spells we need to worry about?

[Scampi]

Hi all!

First of all: this is a great deck. Props to Lukas for testing this and posting here with explanation. Now I have been playing affinity for some years (started testing with it just before GP Lille 2004 where I got day 2), and already tried several builds. This build is the more fun though!

Last weekend, I took it to a local tournament (30 players). I played the list Lukas posted card for card and here were my results:

Round 1 vs. Goblins with splash green and black: 1-2. When pairings were up, I knew I was in for a hard time because I had to play Tist. He is the 2007 Belgian Legacy Champ and legacy pretty much is his life. A good player but also very correct and friendly.
Game 1 I quickly cast a 'Nought and he is unable to race that (duuh, who does)
Game 2: I mull to 5 and his card advantage is too much (damn you lackey!)
Game 3: Very close, but my deck choses not to cooperate and his Krosan Grips and Tin-street hooligans are too much for me in the end

0-1

Round 2 vs Loam with Seismic Assault: I lose 1-2 again, I can't remember what went wrong, he just seems to pull everything. Strangely, this is the first time I play vs. Loam and I didn't know very well how to react against it. This probably cost me the game...

0-2 (and out of top 8 reach)

Round 3 vs. Elves!
Game 1: I cast soms critters, he casts some trick-elves. I play vision charm in his upkeep to make all forests plains and I do it again the turn afterwards. Meanwhile, Plating hits play and that's game. Fun times!
Game 2: I cast 'Nought turn 2 , Pithing needle on a trick elve turn 3 and that was that

1-2

Round 4 vs. TES combo
Game 1: He plays, eerm, nothing (this nothing includes: no lands), I win quickly
Game 2: I have 2x Force of Will with the necessary blue cards to stop any shenanigans. He eventually can cast diminishing returns to give all players 7 cards back and i got 2x Chalice which I cast on 0 and 1. He scoops immediately as he cannot win afterwards

2-2

Round 5 vs. DreadStill with black splash
Game 1: he can cast Nought and I can't, I lose
Game 2: I can play around a Top+counterbalance by Needle the top, and play a Nought afterwards
Game 3: I won because of the mana denial plan, I stifle a fetchland and wasteland an underground sea

3-2

17 of august there is a larger tournament which I will attend. However I would like to point out some things:

1) I am not too sure about the Chrome Mox, I just don't know. Hard to replace it, but not something you want to draw later in the game.
2) Mulligans: I took alot of them. On the upside: you CAN and MUST mulligan alot but vs. Gobos or other aggro decks: you will have a hard time. Somehow the mana base is a little bit shabby. However, I understand the delicate balance between artifacts and blue cards is not just be changed easily...
3) Arcbound Worker? Not sure what to think about him, sometimes he is very good, but sometimes not. I probably will get flamed for this, but maybe 2 copies could be replaced by Top? I'd rather play Top turn 1 (artifact that won't get killed easily as Worker), I can put my redundant mana in it, digs deep (for whatever you need: mana, blue card for you force, 'Nought...), can be sacced to Ravager whilst drawing a card, ... I dunno, I have to test this.
3) In my local meta: I didn't see ANY artifact hate. This means: No null rods or energy flux (or kataki, but who would play that anyway?), only some pernicious deeds and krosan grips. I think therefor that a regular affinity build with Dark Confidant and Thoughseize (!!) would be very viable in my local meta. I am only referring to my meta of course... But just for the record and a little off-topic, here is the list that could be played:

4x Ornithopter
4x Arcbound Worker
4x Arcbound Ravager
4x Frogmite
4x Disciple of the Vault
3x Atog
3x Dark Confidant

4x Cranial Plating
4x Aether Vial
4x Thoughtseize
3x Chromatic Star
2x Fling

4x Vault of Whispers
4x Great Furnace
4x Darksteel Citadel
2x Glimmervoid
3x Blinkmoth Nexus

Sideboard options could be: Tormod's, Needle, Extirpate (!), Engineered Plague, Sphere of Resistance...

Let me know what you think (especially about the top)

[nitewolf9]

A stifle, however, could work like a counterspell against a spree's replicate. Perhaps this could be a case for adding trickbind?
EDIT: Is pithing needle maindeck for spree a bad idea? What are the the other removal spells we need to worry about?

Spree's replicate is an additional cost, not an activated/triggered ability. So it can't be stifled or needled.

[Nihil Credo]

Spree's replicate is an additional cost, not an activated/triggered ability. So it can't be stifled or needled.
It's an additional cost, but it produces a triggered ability, which can be Stifled (but not Needled).

[Metaknight]

Edit: I agree that Arcbound Worker is one of the weakest cards in the maindeck, though. In game 2&3 I usually board some number of them out to bring in other artifacts like Pithing Needle or Tormod`s Crypt.

one word...Roterothopter

[Scampi]

one word...Roterothopter

?????

[Metaknight]

?????

what don't you understand? he wants a one drop thats an artifact thats stronger than Worker, and Roterothopter is it. It's another thopter that can pump, so it doesn't need the plating to attack, seems good to me, and the loss of moduler isn't that big of a deal.

[Scampi]

Ok, I'll do it again... ????

In this deck, if you can afford to pay 2 mana to even pump it up once, I will assure you that you will lose.
Modular is a big deal... it has amazing synergy with Ravager.

If you don't want to play the workers, you can better play needle or even Sensei's top.

[Lothian]

I'm pretty sure this judge is wrong. With the ability on the stack, the Dreadnought is removed from play. Then the ability resolves, and you get to choose to either sacrifice enough creatures, or to let the Dreadnought die. If you choose the latter, the Dreadnought should die, but since it isn't in play, it won't and nothing happens.

The problem here is you are trying to play a Vision Charm on a card (DreadNought) which is not yet in play.

How do you plan to target an artifact not yet in play?

[kicks_422]

It is in play. You put the comes into play ability on the stack.

[Lothian]

Ok ok, just read literature about it

So basically, what was totally unthinkable in Mirage Block when it got released, is now possible.

I guess Magic is that kind of game where bending rules is the game essence

I understand better why the Nought is getting more expensive than tarmo itself lately...

That way, we got so many more chances to get it on the map turn1.

That's pretty nasty alright !

[Scampi]

I made it to top 8 with the deck (26 participants), only change was -2x Arcbound Worker into +2 Sensei's Divining top

All my losses were due to play mistakes (hey, I am not a very good player), e.g. Stifling a Mishra's Factory with my opponent having a gazilion mana open to reactivate it again

AND Pithing Needle on Mishra's Factory with my opponent having an engineered explosives in 'yard and Academy Ruins in play. Bummer!

But I can say that the deck is good but not über-easy to play. You have tough choices to make especially for the blue cards: what to sacrifice to Force, what to put under Mox, do we put anything under mox at all, etc...

Vision Charm rules so much, I already did some sick things with it:
during upkeep turning all his mountains into plains feeling like a Time Walk. Or Top shows me nothing? 4 top cards of my library to 'yard...

But I guess there is nothing like phasing out an Ensnaring Bridge with a Plated Dreadnought in play, swinging for 28 , staying at 1 life and moving to top 8 :tongue:

[Lukas Preuss]

Alright, you guys. I have been working on this deck quite a lot lately because I wanted to take it to the German Legacy Champs on August 31st. I did some changes to the decklist, playtested a lot, but then I got really sick the week before the tournament and wasn't able to go on sunday. That sucked because last year I wasn't able to go either, but I guess shit happens.

By the way, does anybody know when and where this year's Dutch Legacy Champs are?

Anyway, here's the new decklist and some explanations. The biggest change might be that I cut FoW for Dark Confidant:

// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [MR] Seat of the Synod
4 [MR] Vault of Whispers
4 [B] Underground Sea

// Creatures
4 [DS] Arcbound Ravager
4 [5E] Ornithopter
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 [FUT] Epochrasite
3 [DS] Arcbound Worker

// Spells
4 [FD] Cranial Plating
4 [VI] Vision Charm
4 [SC] Stifle
3 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [MR] Thoughtcast
3 [MR] Chrome Mox

You could run a 3/3 or a 4/2 split between Aether Vial and Chrome Mox... I prefer the 3/3 split, but I guess this is personal preference to some degree as well as your metagame.

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [FNM] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [A] Winter Orb
SB: 4 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void


One of the deck's biggest weaknesses was card disadvantage. Thoughtcast isn't enough card advantage to justify both Chrome Mox and FoW and because of that, mass removal was devastating for the deck (of course it still is to some degree, but we will come to this later). Also, FoW couldn't be used reliably because of all the card disadvantage... and really there are only a few threats that you really need to take care of. I than chose to cut FoW and Thoughtcast for Confidant and Cabal Therapy. Even though this was strong, I noticed that this makes Chrome Mox rather weak, because you really need blue mana for Stifle and Vision Charm. Aether Vial works as a mana fixer for Dark Confidant (and also as another card that combos well with Dreadnought), but 8 blue sources wasn't enough for Stifle and Vision Charm. So I went and cut Therapy (even though it was kind of strong) for even more card advantage and added Thoughtcast again. Chrome Mox now has approximately ¾ chance of being a blue mana source, which is much better. Also, the card advantage of Confidant and Thoughtcast is sick!
After Aether Vial proved itself to be really good, I cut Frogmite for Epochrasite because of the synergy with Vial and Dark Confidant.
I'm pretty sure that this decklist is really strong right now... it is not Affownity anymore but a much stronger Dreadnought Affinity list. But the absence of FoW isn't all that bad... the few cards that you desperately need to handle because they really make you lose (Deed, Disk) can be handled by Stifle (and Pithing Needle postboard), as well.

I think I will edit the newest list into the opening post, as well as some new matchup analysis (Landstill, It's the Fear).

Any questions regarding the changes?

[Skeggi]

By the way, does anybody know when and where this year's Dutch Legacy Champs are?


wat? NK Legacy
Waar? IJsselhallen te Zwolle
Wanneer? 16 November
Prijzen? Richard kennende boosters en mooie judge foils
Kosten? ga er vanuit van pakembeet 10 euros
Rondes? afhankelijk van opkomst

Wat = What; NK (Nederlands Kampioenschappen; Dutch Championship)
Waar = Where; location: IJsselhallen, town: Zwolle
Wanneer = When
Prijzen = Prize Support (free translation); boosters and judge foils, but nothing is set in stone yet afaik
Kosten = Entree Fee (free translation); about 10 Euro, also, not certain yet.
Rondes = Rounds; depending on how many are coming.

Source: BeneLegacy Forum (http://forum.benelegacy.nl/viewtopic.php?t=926)

[Rush]

No Disciple? Why?

[Scampi]

Any questions regarding the changes?

Impressed, at first glance this looks very strong. I was a heavy defender of Dark Confidant in affinity two years ago. And seeing there is not much hate in my current meta, I was toying the idea to get back to a standard list with Confidant, thoughtseize, atog and fling. Now I have a better challenge, your list! The only thing is that I am not sure of 4x Dark Confidant. I always tried to cut one in previous versions...
And thoughtcast+confidant is a bit weird imo, 5 damage seems a lot to me...
Will do some testing with the deck, but will take some time,please let us know your tournament results with the deck!

*Edit: Not convinced with test results so far, I have too many dead cards from time to time eg epochrasite...

[4eak]

While I've already posted this in Vial Affinity, and I don't wish to be redundant or spamming, I think the following card definitely deserves mention in an affinity deck thread that actually uses (or has been known to use) FoW.

Master of Etherium - 2U - */*
Artifact Creature - Vedalken Wizard

Master of Etherium's power and toughness are each equal to the number of artifacts you control.
Other artifact creatures you control get +1/+1.

peace,
4eak

[Scampi]

Here is what I would play next time:

4x Ornithopter
4x Arcbound Worker
4x Arcbound Ravager
4x Frogmite
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
2x Somber Hoverguard

4x Chrome Mox
4x Cranial Plating
4x Vision Charm
4x Stifle
4x Thoughtcast
2x Sensei's Divining Top

4x Darksteel Citadel
4x Seat of the Synod
4x Wasteland
4x Island

Okay, so when you cut FoW, you should be less influenced by card disadvantage. But obviously you cut 4 blue cards as eventual Mox-targets, so I suggest putting 2x Somber Hoverguard in: great at putting underneath mox turn 1 and also a good finisher.
For the other 2 slots I prefer Top: I know I must be about the only affinity player at planet earth to do this but you must try and love it...This has won me so many games and saved me from mulligans a gazilion time. I do board them out mostly after game 1.

Any feedback on this attempt would be great.

[Lukas Preuss]

Master of Etherium - 2U - */*
Artifact Creature - Vedalken Wizard

Master of Etherium's power and toughness are each equal to the number of artifacts you control.
Other artifact creatures you control get +1/+1.


Wow, this looks awesome. I think this will be the primary Affinity build to make use of this card, simply because it doesn't only fit perfectly into the Affinity part of the deck, but because it allows you to run another blue card without lowering your artifact count... I think I will have to rework the mono blue shell of the deck again!

[4eak]

While I prefer Vial Affinity, I do enjoy trying out other variations.

For those interested in keeping Dreadnought in AfFOWnity, then I'd try this out:


Creatures: 20
4x Arcbound Worker
4x Arcbound Ravager
4x Frogmite
4x Master of Etherium
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought

Other Artifacts: 9
3x Cranial Plating
3x Aether Vial
3x Springleaf Drum

The Blue: 13 *(17 w/MoE)
4x Force of Will
4x Thoughtcast
4x Stifle
1x Vision Charm

Lands: 18
4x Vault of Whispers
4x Seat of the Synod
2x Darksteel Citadel
4x Glimmervoid
4x Island


In my experience, MoE is plenty of fattness, enough so that we shouldn't bastardize the mainboard for Dreadnought. I think AfFOWnity should look a lot more like:


Creatures: 23
4x Arcbound Worker
4x Arcbound Ravager
4x Frogmite
4x Disciple of the Vault
4x Master of Etherium
3x Somber Hoverguard

Other Artifacts: 9
3x Cranial Plating
3x Aether Vial
3x Springleaf Drum

The Blue: 10 *(17 w/MoE+SHGuard)
4x Force of Will
4x Thoughtcast
2x Misdirection

Lands: 18
4x Vault of Whispers
4x Seat of the Synod
4x Darksteel Citadel
4x Glimmervoid
2x Wasteland

I'll quickly discuss some of the more difficult choices:

Somber Hoverguard -- He isn't amazing, but he is cheap enough, he flies, and he's blue. He is the last blue card I put in the deck.

Disciple of the Vault -- If you can play him, then you should. He fills a very important niche. He wins games all by himself and he's an essential part of the combo aspect of this deck. He also punishes control.

Cranial Plating -- only 3 because it is so mana intensive and suffers from diminishing returns in multiples. This was a tough cut, but this deck has to make them if it wants to play FoW.

Vial/Drum -- 3/3 split has tested very well with MoE.

Misdirection -- seems questionable, but this is really FoW 5-6 (with 7-8 in the sideboard). It wins counterwars and it eats StP. I'll test further having 4x MisD in the main and let you know. This is solid protection for MoE.

Wasteland -- I prefer it to Nexus in this deck.


peace,
4eak

[Scampi]

Wow, MoE really is a bomb, even better then I suspected...
I will try some different builds out

@4eak: I see you cut ornithopters for the MoE, my first thought was to cut the frogmites for these, any opinion on this?

another thing to consider: is it worth cutting the wastelands for let's say Vault of Whispers? After all, MoE is 3 mana, and more artifacts is always better...

[4eak]

I see you cut ornithopters for the MoE, my first thought was to cut the frogmites for these, any opinion on this?

My first thoughts:

Frogmite has a body that does damage. Like Arcbound Worker, he is part of the core of the deck. Frogmite is aggressive. Ornithopter isn't as necessary; it acts mostly as acceleration with a nice evasion finish possibility. AfFOWnity is working towards becoming an aggro-control deck, and Ornithopter doesn't play as pivotal a role as it does in the exclusively aggro-combo versions of affinity.

But, hey, try it out! =)


is it worth cutting the wastelands for let's say Vault of Whispers?

Well, I am already playing Vault of Whispers in both lists. Great Furnace/Tree of Tales seem like great choices in place of Wasteland.

I am, primarily, unconcerned with a 3rd color in the deck because the list is already extremely blue heavy. It should grab mostly blue or artifact cards from the sideboard. Wasteland just seemed like a better choice at the time because it was further disruptive. That doesn't mean Wasteland is a better choice than artifact lands though, especially in a deck that is gasping for more artifacts. I think you are right.

How about:

-1 Glimmervoid
-2 Wasteland
+3 Great Furnace or Tree of Tales


peace,
4eak

[Scampi]

You are probably right about the Thopters, will switch them...but I'll take the workers out ofc. Stupid I had'nt thought of that... weakest creature and post-board you might play Chalice for 1 against certain decks (sligh and elves only comes to mind). So that comes in handy whilst Thopter is 1 less mana, has evasion and stops lackey...

What I don't like about your first list is that there is Springleaf drum, which I believe is more a mana fixer. So I would leave Chrome mox in it. Not sure about aether vial, but I think we don't run enough creatures to abuse it enough, and after it reached 3 counters, you can't use it to put other creatures into play.
I would definitely play 4x Vision Charm! Protecting 'Nought, MoE, or whatever is just great! I can't tell you how many vision charms I played on a goblin player in his upkeep to keep him from red mana, it feels like a time walk every time (okay, slightly exaggerated I admit)
If we insert Frogmite, I would take out wastelands and put Vault of Whispers instead (turn 1 worker, turn 2 Ravager and froggy, turn 3 etherium swing for 7 could be considered a "reasonable" opener :tongue: ). Here is the new list then:

4x Ornithopter
4x Arcbound Ravager
4x Frogmite
4x Master of Etherium
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought

3x Chrome Mox
4x Stifle
4x Vision Charm
4x Force of Will
4x Thoughtcast
4x Cranial Plating

4x Darksteel Citadel
4x Seat of the Synod
4x Vault of Whispers
4x Island
1x Blinkmoth Nexus

This should work out pretty well imo, only thing that bothers me is the mana base. I am not sure if this can work on only 17 land + 4 moxes, perhaps:

+1 Great Furnace
-1 Cranial Plating (because most of our critters are big on there own and don't have flying)

or:

+1 Island
-1 Cranial Plating

or even:

+4 Wasteland
-1 Vault of Whispers
-1 Blinkmoth Nexus
-1 FoW
-1 Cranial Plating

[Scampi]

I tested this deck yesterday (as above post) vs. my friend who is a superior GoyfSligh player.

Results were pretty stunning: pre-board: 6-0 (which is due to 'Nought and MoE, too big to handle for sligh)
post-board: 2-2 (2 times he won was because he was able to cast 2 out of 3 tin-street hooligans)

Looks very promising so far!

[Maagler]

I tested this deck yesterday (as above post) vs. my friend who is a superior GoyfSligh player.

Results were pretty stunning: pre-board: 6-0 (which is due to 'Nought and MoE, too big to handle for sligh)
post-board: 2-2 (2 times he won was because he was able to cast 2 out of 3 tin-street hooligans)

Looks very promising so far!

I'm surprised he couldn't kill you with price of progress, but I can see how he would have problems with a resolved dreadnought.

[Scampi]

I'm surprised he couldn't kill you with price of progress, but I can see how he would have problems with a resolved dreadnought.

Price of Progress is indeed a great threat, but not if you have a Ravager out, you just sac enough lands to be reasonable... with this manabase, you most likely have 2 artifact lands and 1 island in play, so max. damage would be 4. And then there is always FoW, you probably want to counter PoP or perhaps Tarmogoyf

[Maagler]

Price of Progress is indeed a great threat, but not if you have a Ravager out, you just sac enough lands to be reasonable... with this manabase, you most likely have 2 artifact lands and 1 island in play, so max. damage would be 4. And then there is always FoW, you probably want to counter PoP or perhaps Tarmogoyf

makes sense, forgot about Ravager.

Question:
I used to play FOWaffinity when it first came out, and I found one of its greatest attributes was the city of traitors/ancient tomb first turn into a chalice. Now I have not played the deck in a while and it looks to have morphed into something totally different altogether, but why was that dropped from the mana base? Is there no more room for it or was it deemed obsolete?

anyways the reason i was asking is because i love the dreadnought combo, and if no one is expecting affinity then it can be a great glass canon, so i might try to pick up the deck again since i have mostly all of the cards.

[Scampi]

makes sense, forgot about Ravager.

Question:
I used to play FOWaffinity when it first came out, and I found one of its greatest attributes was the city of traitors/ancient tomb first turn into a chalice. Now I have not played the deck in a while and it looks to have morphed into something totally different altogether, but why was that dropped from the mana base? Is there no more room for it or was it deemed obsolete?

anyways the reason i was asking is because i love the dreadnought combo, and if no one is expecting affinity then it can be a great glass canon, so i might try to pick up the deck again since i have mostly all of the cards.

The problem is that combining the dreadnought engine ('Nought+stifle+vision charm) with Chalice for 1 isn't working too well... We still put chalice in the board vs. combo (on 0) and on a rare occasion on 1.

This deck seems like a great choice in the right meta, like mine, which totally isn't prepared for Affinity.

[Scampi]

Tested against UW control yesterday with the toolbox: FOW, counterspell, top, swords, counterbalance and as win condition show and tell for the 11/11 trampler.

I got hammered big time, and even didn't find an answer post-board (chalice for 1? might be ok). I think wastelands are needed in matchups like this, so I will add them again. Here is the new list:

4x Ornithopter
4x Arcbound Ravager
4x Frogmite
4x Master of Etherium
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought

4x Chrome Mox
4x Cranial Plating
4x Force of Will
4x Thoughtcast
4x Stifle
4x Vision Charm

4x Island
4x Seat of the Synod
4x Darksteel Citadel
4x Wasteland

I also played vs. Belcher combo, which is a walk in the park especially post-board (Needles, stifle, force,...)

[Reaver027]

wow my first post and i have lurking around these boards for months :D

so what do you think about Etherium Sculptor and Ethersworn Canonist.

i like the sculptor but i dont know if he got a place in this deck. the only card i can think of taking out for him would be frogmite. but i am not so sure if that would be a good idea. he would help on our blue spells but then again adds another spell that requires blue to cast.

the canonist seems to be a good sideboard card. would have to run the white artifact lands to support him tho. might be a bit risky to play this with only 4 white mana sources.

dont got the time to playtest these cards atm. university takes too mich time right now.

btw scampi i am thinking about running the same deck you posted there. cept that i still use vaults over wasteland. will have to do some testing once i got mor etime again. if someone got the time i would love to see some test results on the canonista nd teh sculptor.

[Captain Hammer]

This deck really ought to get more serious consideration.

With the addition of Master of Epitherium, and influx of other blue artifact creatures with potential, supporting Force of Will is a cake walk.

Plus that incredibly synergic answer to combo (Rule of Law on an artifact 2/2).

This deck, now more than ever before, has what it takes to be a tier one aggro control deck both in legacy and extended.

P.S: I still think Dreadnought/Stifle warrant inclusion. Dreadnought also works with Bonesplitter, Vial, and can even just feed both Ravager and Disciple. But space is getting tight. Epocrasite might be just flat out better, since it doesn't require any set up, is resilient enough to survive multiple Wrath and Deed effects versus landstill, trumps Factory and saccing it can also feed stuff.

With all the immensely large creatures the deck now plays, rocket boots (Lightning Greaves) might have a home.

A Greaves on either a MoE or Dreadnought just played means you can beat face one turn earlier, and they're now immune to targeted removal.

[lupus_g]

sorry for the question, what do you mean when yau say that dreadnought works with vial?
For as i know the comes into play ability triggers even with vial, so it still needs stifle/vision to work.
Or am I wrong?

[Bahamuth]

sorry for the question, what do you mean when yau say that dreadnought works with vial?
For as i know the comes into play ability triggers even with vial, so it still needs stifle/vision to work.
Or am I wrong?

Play Dreadnought, in respone Vial in another Dreadnought. The second one triggers. Sac the first, and one Dreadnought survives.

[Hanni]

Dread Master

// Lands
8 [P3] Island (3)
4 [MR] Seat of the Synod
4 [MR] Vault of Whispers

// Creatures
4 [9E] Master of Etherium
4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 [DS] Arcbound Worker
4 [DS] Arcbound Ravager
4 [FUT] Epochrasite

// Spells
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [VI] Vision Charm
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [FD] Cranial Plating
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 4 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle

I like how Master of Etherium enables FoW in blue Affinity. 20 blue spells is perfect for FoW, so now you have a very strong game against combo and your own combo element via Dreadnought can be further protected. I also like how Etherium pumps Worker/Ravager/Epochrasite while being a massively large threat himself. Epochrasite can trade with Goyf now, and Worker becomes a solid 1cc 2/2. Between Stifle/Nought, Ravager, Etherium, and Cranial, the deck has 16 bombs that the opponent needs to answer.

I think the concept is very strong.

Epochrasite > Frogmite > Ornithopter, IMO. Ornithopter is junk without Cranial or Etherium, and Frogmite is a bit small at 2/2 and doesn't strengthen the deck against mass removal effects like Epochrasite does.

I prefer Ponder over Thoughtcast because it can be used turn 1 more consistently, enabling better turn 2-3 plays. It digs deeper, therefore providing more protection via FoW's and assembles the Stifle/Nought combo faster.

[Waikiki]

imo your artifact count is a bit low and I would change the vault for ancient den. And maybe add some tundra's

This way you can play the 2/2 rule of law artifact creature in your sb cause imo your combo matchup is way from good.

[Hanni]

Running Tundra and Ancient Den for Ethersworn Canonist in the sideboard could be good, probably in the Jitte spots. I'm sure this is a metagame call though... plain Islands with Jitte is good against nonbasic hate and aggro, Ethersworn is good against combo.

I don't understand what you mean about the artifact count, though. The deck runs 0 actual Affinity cards and has 32 artifacts in total. If you mean my artifact creature count is too low (for Etherium), there really isn't much that can be done. The deck can't really fit any more creatures because it needs the blue count for FoW and wants Ponder to increase consistency.

[Scampi]

Running Tundra and Ancient Den for Ethersworn Canonist in the sideboard could be good, probably in the Jitte spots. I'm sure this is a metagame call though... plain Islands with Jitte is good against nonbasic hate and aggro, Ethersworn is good against combo.

I don't understand what you mean about the artifact count, though. The deck runs 0 actual Affinity cards and has 32 artifacts in total. If you mean my artifact creature count is too low (for Etherium), there really isn't much that can be done. The deck can't really fit any more creatures because it needs the blue count for FoW and wants Ponder to increase consistency.

I would lower the amount of basic islands in favor some Darksteel Citadels. There are more cards in your deck that rely on artifacts (MoE, Ravager, Plating).
I am not a fan of ponder, thoughtcast is the nuts and not only because it digs, but mostly to provide you with FoW-fodder and general card advantage. As Lukas Preuss states: this deck is very susceptable to card disadvantage. FoW, Chrome mox and 'Nought are 2 for 1's so you need to compensate this somewhere. Thoughtcast is perfect in doing so!

[Hanni]

Without shuffle effects, Top is garbage, and lowers the blue spell count. Ponder is much faster than Top early game, which helps make the deck more explosive.

I think my current maindeck is pretty streamlined, with Ponder being questionable over Thoughtcast, and that's about it. Dropping 4 Island for 4 Darksteel Citadel reduces the blue mana source count too low to reliably cast blue spells, IMO.

[Scampi]

[QUOTE=Hanni;277070]Without shuffle effects, Top is garbage, and lowers the blue spell count. Ponder is much faster than Top early game, which helps make the deck more explosive. QUOTE]

I still would change Ponder to Thoughtcast, and I am not a big fan of Epochrasite either. Way too conditionally imo,doesn't mean you deck isn't solid though, we are talking about details...

[AngryTroll]

Hanni, your list is interesting, but where'd all the lands go? You are running 16 land, 0 Wastes, and 0 Chrome Moxen. I understand cutting Waste, but even Thresh with 8 cantrips and Top runs 17 or 18 land.

Vial and Ponder alone can't make up for that few land. I'd be much happier running Thoughtcast over Ponder, but in that list, you don't have any choice.

I'm also not convinced that Epochrasite > Frogmite > Ornithopter. Thopter is great with Cranial Plating and Ravager, and now gets better with Master or Etherium. With only Ravager making Worker anything more than a 1/1 for 1, I'd be tempted to say that Ornithopter is better. With Master of Etherium, Worker is a 2/2 for 1 with a Modular, but Ornithopter is a 1/3 flyer for 0.

The synergy between Waste, Stifle, and the beats was always appealing to me about the deck. Should it really be dropped? Maybe it should, but I'd at least like to hear an argument as to why it is the right call.

[Daze]

I agree with everything AngryTroll said. Just as I decided to build the deck, MoE was spoiled, and now I have to think my list all over again -.-.
The most important question I'd like to ask is

-Do we really want to play FoW?

The Lukas Preuss' latest list works quite nice, and he himself said



One of the deck's biggest weaknesses was card disadvantage. Thoughtcast isn't enough card advantage to justify both Chrome Mox and FoW and because of that, mass removal was devastating for the deck (of course it still is to some degree, but we will come to this later). Also, FoW couldn't be used reliably because of all the card disadvantage... and really there are only a few threats that you really need to take care of.

You list has neither Toughcast nor Confidant, so I guess card disadvantage could really become a problem. All the other blue aggroish decks I can think of have better draw "engines" than us- Merfolk has Standstill or Ancestral Vision, Faerie Stompy has Mulldrifter and SoFI, Fish had Confidants. Thus I'm not sure if we don't run out of gas too fast.
And as Lukas said, there aren't that many threats we actually want to handle.
Combo comes to mind, Mass Removal (although we are actually not that bad at handeling it with Epochrasite, Stifle or Vial+Plating), what else?

I also think that Confidant deserves a spot in every affinity-less affinity list because he really is a serious threat, but maybe that's just me.

[Scampi]

To be honest, I am seriously thinking about taking Truchado's original list and switching Myr Enforcer with Master of Etherium. The list now has a serious beater, more blue spells, and a pump effect. That should only make it better right?

[Reaver027]

should make it better - yes.
but you now have more blue cards and still only 8 (4 of them being the mox and you cant imprint the master on it) blue mana sources.
i would still switch out the cloud of faeries for stifle (that card is just too good imho) and the tombs for islands. perhaps switch the jitte for a 4th wasteland ?

[Scampi]

should make it better - yes.
but you now have more blue cards and still only 8 (4 of them being the mox and you cant imprint the master on it) blue mana sources.
i would still switch out the cloud of faeries for stifle (that card is just too good imho) and the tombs for islands. perhaps switch the jitte for a 4th wasteland ?

Daaamn, i forgot you can't imprint the master....
in playtest I must have done that wrong a gazilion times!!

I feel so stupid...

[Knikola]

Hello, I've grown very interested in affinity lately. I think Master of Etherium has a lot of potential in this deck, as well as Salvage Titan..

Lands
4 Wasteland
4 Seat of the Synod
4 islands
4 Darksteel Citidel
16
Creatures
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Ornithopter
4 Salvage Titan
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Master of Etherium/Epochrasite
20

Spells
3 Cranial Plating
3 Vision Charm
4 Stifle
4 Thoughtcast
3 Chrome Mox
4 Force of Will
3 Aether Vial
24


I am caught between using one of the two creatures posted above. Perhaps I'll test this soon. As for Salvage Titan, I think I'd like a 6/4 first turn. That might sound awkward :tongue:

[lupus_g]

Hi to everybody, i'd like to have a hint.
I'm going to play a big tournament (more than 100 people) in a few days and i want to play this deck.
So far i've tested Lukas Preuss updated list (online on MWS):

Lands
4 Wasteland
4 Seat of the Synod
4 underground sea
4 vault of whispers

Creatures
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Ornithopter
3 arcbound worker
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Epochrasite
4 dark confidant

Spells
4 Cranial Plating
4 Vision Charm
4 Stifle
4 Thoughtcast
3 Chrome Mox
3 Aether Vial

Side
4 cabal therapy
3 pithing needle
3 tormod's crypt
3 misdirection
2 jitte

It's been quite good and the card advantage you get is insane. Dreadnought is just awesome, brings so many gg, even if it gets answered most of the times. But sometimes i feel like the deck lacks some board 'thickness'. I mean, most of our creatures are really unimpressive, and epoch is very situational.

So i've tried swapping black with green (+4 tree of tales +4 tropical -4 vault
-4 sea -4 confidant +4 TARMOGOYF). This has been made noticing how big opposing tarmos tend to become. Haven't tested much yet but from the few games i've performed i think i like it. With green u open the sb to cards like seal of primordium/other ench-artifact hate but we lose therapy, that is just insane int the deck.

So what would you play in an unknown meta?

EDIT: i won't be able to get neither Master of Etherium nor FoW for the tourney, wich anyway would require more testing and adjustments i don't have time to accomplish.

[evilchen]

so FoW is out of the FoWinty? :/! damn i missed that

[Willoe]

No it isn't, FoW rocks your socks in Affinity.

I'd like to point out that I think that monoblue with NO salvage Titan is the way to go. I don't want to post a decklist because I don't have one, but I playtested a bit without Vision Charm, but with Æther Vial. You still have enough cards for FoW, namely twenty:

4 FoW
4 Master of Etherium
4 Stifle
4 Thoughtcast
4 Somber Hoverguard

What I like about Somber Hoverguard is that we badly need flying creatures to support Plating. Ornithopter and Somber is enough. I also think that eighteen lands should be used, here's my theoretical mana base:

4 Seat of the Synod
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Ancient Den
5 Island
1 Glimmervoid

Five mana-sources, since I'm planning to use four Ethersworn Canonist in the sideboard. It's pretty good, after all. I just don't know if a 5-4, a 4-4 or a 4-3 split between white mana sources and Etherworn is best, has somebodt tested that?

[MoonDark]

Hi, I like your idea quite a bit.

I got some questions though...

1) How do you plan to support Dreadnought ? Just with Vial and Stifle ? . I mean for the vial thing to work you need to have 2x Dreadnought in hand and in resp sacrifice one to the other puting it in play with vial .

The problem with this is that you need to keep a Vial with one counter.

2) Is master of etherium really that cool ??? Have you tested well with it ??

The thing about vision charm is that it works against for example Swords to Plowshares , protecting your dreadnought and MoE with no problem at all.

I have also tested chrome mox and I don't think it's worth to run.

[evilchen]

No it isn't, FoW rocks your socks in Affinity.


I though its out because too much card disadvantage in a deck playing cards without end :O!? correct me if iam wrong, what does the creator/creators say?

[AngryTroll]

I played with the standard list for a while (Pre-Master of Etherium) and always felt like Force and Mox were the weakest cards in the deck. Both forced you to mess with the colored count, both were card disadvantage, but both could be pretty good in the right situations.

Force, with only Stifle to back it up, always felt a little underwhelming. I understand that it only counters the really game breaking spells like Deed, but it always felt out of place in such an aggro deck without some more counters to back it up or a better draw engine to find it more reliably.

I tried a list with 4 Stifles, 3 Flings, and 2 Vision Charms just to see what it felt like, and I actually liked it better (and this still didn't have MoE in it) that the older list. I felt like Fling was always solid with Dreadnaught and Plating, and I didn't have awkward situations with Force and Mox. I mean, really, what do you pitch to either? Another Force? Half of your 2 card combo? Thoughtcast? I never had a cantrip or extra Counterbalance to pitch, like Threshold-I always really, really wanted to cast the card I had to Imprint to generate a blue mana to make my hand work. The list was rough, and there's a ton of great spells for those Fling Spots (more Vision Charms, but if you don't need the blue count, Fling is awesome with Dreadnaught; Disciples; Masters of Etherium), but the list felt...smoother this way.

[MoonDark]

You could really post a list with red :) .

[NecroYawgmoth]

I really like Lukas' new list...

...but I think Master of Etherium is missing somehow...

...otherwise the list looks very good, just to mention that Confidant + Thoughtcast is not that good (5 life is very hard)

...and I don't like the Chrome Mox for the same reason as FoW...What do you want to imprint/pitch

any thoughts???

YawG

[MoonDark]

I don't like the chrome mox at all. I liked FoW though...

[gnat]

I'm testing the following decklist at the moment:

// Lands
4 [MR] Ancient Den
4 [MR] Seat of the Synod
4 [DS] Darksteel Citadel
2 [SHM] Island (4)
3 [TE] Wasteland
3 [R] Tundra

// Creatures
4 [SOA] Master of Etherium
4 [MR] Ornithopter
4 [DS] Arcbound Ravager
4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 [MR] Frogmite
2 [MR] Somber Hoverguard

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [FD] Cranial Plating
4 [MR] Thoughtcast
4 [SC] Stifle
3 [VI] Vision Charm

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 4 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [SOA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt


I don't play chrome mox, so i had to include enough U-lands. the tundra's are there to better support the canonist.
I dropped frogmite to a total of 3; the reason behind this, is that this build of affinity isn't that explosive and even a turn 2 frogmite is not really a certitude...
Somber Hoverguard gives us 6 flyers for cranial and also a total of 21 U spells for FOW.

One thing that keeps me thinking: are 35 artifacts enough?

[Omega]

i must admit i havent tested master yet. How is he doing in Affinity? Should i get some foil one? :)

Robert

[MoonDark]

I haven't tested him a lot either. But from what I've seen, it's a powerful creature and can support FoW, so I think that at least in Afownity , it deserves testing.

[gnat]

most of the time, it's a very good topdeck; which is useful as the decks runs out of gas fairly often.

[MoonDark]

Hey guys, I have been trying to play FoW , and I'm not really liking it very much, the 2x1 really hurts quite a bit .

What have you guys tested so far ?

[NecroYawgmoth]

I don't know about FoW and Master...

...but I know that I have played Affinity a lot in the past..., and you hate carddisadvantage cuz you are an Aggrodeck, an fast aggrodeck what is on Turn 3-4 in Topdeckmode... and you want carddraw not carddisadvantage... so if you are holding 2 cards in hand, your opponent will know it's FoW+Pitch, don't you think so???

...next Point... what card do you want to pitch?
FoW has no Backup, you lose Carddraw, an gamewinning creature, or your Dreadnougth options...

Deed can be stifled, so there is no need of FoW imo...

Master of Etherium looks very Powerful to me... It's like Ravager or Plating a must-counter/must-handle or your opponent will lose quickly...

The best thing is Dreadnought is a must-hanle too, so this deck has an overkill of aggro, what definitely is more than your opponent has answers to...

YawG

[MoonDark]

According to my testing, the fow is not needed. Too much discard. MoE could be solid thought... But in think in need to give the fellow more testing. If you need more disruption I would recommend running 4x needle main. Or at least test that.

What do you think about needle???

[NecroYawgmoth]

Needle is good, FoW not...
Needle is an artifact also...

YawG

[Omega]

Affinity "biggest" weakness is probably Landstill and its Pernicious deed and Combo right?

Pithing needle can answer the first one but is rarely relevant against combo,

Stifle however, answer both first and storm engine, buying you time to kill opponent before he can gather the necessary cards again. However, latest combo list run protection spell. Plus, Affinity is aggro. Keeping a blue mana open isnt very good...

what do you guys think?

Robert

[MoonDark]

Well, the thing about the needle is that. It's an artifact, can also eliminate some man-lands. Kill Grind-Stone ( in case you need it ) , kill deed, powderkeg, Explosives... it's pretty decent.

I think you guys should test the thing too :)

[jericohs@cottage]

Excuse me, I know this will sound completely rediculous but has anyone thought of including Ad Nauseam in Thoughtcast's spot. For years Affinity players have been upset on how the deck simply runs out of gas so quickly.

Well i've been doing some thinking and has anyone thought about how Ad Nauseam and Affinity are highly synergistic. In fact, it might outweigh the loss of life to flipping a Myr Enforcer, etc. Plus, you would likely play those cards for free anyways right after dropping (hmmm, i'd imagine) 5-8 cards drawn from AdN???

Just a thought.


I'm testing the following decklist at the moment:

// Lands
4 [MR] Ancient Den
4 [MR] Seat of the Synod
4 [DS] Darksteel Citadel
2 [SHM] Island (4)
3 [TE] Wasteland
3 [R] Tundra

// Creatures
4 [SOA] Master of Etherium
4 [MR] Ornithopter
4 [DS] Arcbound Ravager
4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 [MR] Frogmite
2 [MR] Somber Hoverguard

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [FD] Cranial Plating
4 [MR] Thoughtcast
4 [SC] Stifle
3 [VI] Vision Charm

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 4 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [SOA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt


I don't play chrome mox, so i had to include enough U-lands. the tundra's are there to better support the canonist.
I dropped frogmite to a total of 3; the reason behind this, is that this build of affinity isn't that explosive and even a turn 2 frogmite is not really a certitude...
Somber Hoverguard gives us 6 flyers for cranial and also a total of 21 U spells for FOW.

One thing that keeps me thinking: are 35 artifacts enough?

I thought that you could effectively drop turn one frogmites with a stock list... :wink: The way you have changed the deck around your right though. Your likely going to drop frogmite on turn 3. Plus, don't you think that Phyrexian Dred. is just a win more card? I'd rather spend my stifle on a fetchland than play it to get a big dum fatty into play? I mean your ornithopter or ravager can potentially be that big on turn 2 anyhow, right?

[pingveno]

I don't really like Ad Nauseum for 2 reasons. 1. It costs 5 mana. 2. There are many many many more efficient draw spells out there that fit the theme and strategy of the deck better. You want to be winning by turn 5, and given the prevalence of both deed and wasteland how often do you get 5 mana, 2 of them being black. That is the reason thoughtcast is good, usually a one mana draw spell. Also, Master of Etherium is a powerhouse, regularly a 5/5 for 3 that only gets bigger. It makes another 4 threats that your opponent needs to deal with or you win. By my count that brings it to, 4 ravagers, 4 plating, 4 dreadnaughts, and 4 masters. That is over 1/4 the deck, not bad.

[Reaver027]

i took my deck to day to a 23 player legacy tourney in my local shop.

my list was this:

Lands
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Island

Creatures
4 Master of Etherium
4 Ornithopter
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Frogmite

Spells
4 Force of Will
4 Cranial Plating
4 Thoughtcast
4 Stifle
4 Vision Charm
4 Chrome Mox

Sideboard
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Echoing Truth
3 Spell Snare

Well first of all what decks i faced.
-first round was a strange faerie/survival deck. went 2-0 since my opponent was mana screwed and flooded in two games.
-second round was against a R/g/w sligh deck. i was killed in both games with multiple price of progress. made a critical mistake in the second game forgetting to stifle a fetch land. after that the game was lost.
-third round was vs springtide. first game he got the combo going but was not able to find the finisher and i was able to beat for the win. he was at 1 life when he started the combo. second game wa much easier. sided out naughts and sided in chalice. a chalice at 1 won me the game.
-fourth round was vs painter servent combo. game 1 i was able to vision charm his servent when he was trying to go off and kill him next turn. second game i just lost cause i was not able to stop the combo. third game i was able to hit him for 14 damage with a master equipped with crabial on turn 4. after that i had him dead very fast.
-round five was vs a dredge deck that was leading the tourney at that time.
first game i was able to just beat him to death fast enough. second game was very close but with a ravager with 8 marks and a master both equipped with cranial plating finally got me the win when i was at 3 life.

so i ended up second in the tourney just right behind the sligh dck that beat me in round 2.

my mvps were master, visison charm, stifle, cranial and force.
master was just so good. when he lands he is already bigger than tarmo.

cards that were not so stellar. chrome mox was kind of poor. i played him multiple times without imprinting to just get the additional artefact. so i will look for a replacement for that.

i was also testing vaults of whispers for the fast equip of cranial. but i never used it.

so yeah the card that i am looking into replacing atm would be chrome mox. not sure how i want to replace it.

well yeah thats it for the moment :D

[Slayer001]

instead of vault of whispers I play Wasteland, its not artifact land but its too good in my current meta to leave out.
And I play springleaf drum instead of Chrome mox, AEther Vial could be an option also but haven't tested that yet. The drums do their work good for now

going to test the master now and see what he adds to the deck :)
But what to take out hmm :confused:

[Reaver027]

i am not sure vial is a good option in my list at least .
all my different creatures got different mana costs. ranging from 0 to 4.
but it is at least worth the try and testing.
springleaf drum could be an option and deserves some testing on my side.

i was thinking about playing glimmervoid in the place of islands and adding ancient den and furnance to the deck. so i can play blast and cannonist in the side.

wastelands would also be a nice addition. but i hate to lose artifact lands for it.
but also worth testing.

considering what to take out for teh master. since i dont know your list its hard to help on that part. but if you play enforcers. drop them for the master. the master is just so much more. he is our goyf with a lord ability for just 1 mana more. and he gets bigger than a goyf fast. if he had evasion he would be imba.

[MoonDark]

Think about the vial, it could be excellent because it dodges the counter balance...

If you want other zero costing cards, check your meta well... welding jar, tormods crypt , needle main ( I run 4 )....

Etc.

[Slayer001]

the decklist i run is

Lands
4 Wasteland
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Island
2 Blinkmoth Nexus

Creatures
4 Arcbound Worker (will take this out for the master)
4 Ornithopter
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Frogmite

Spells
4 Force of Will
4 Cranial Plating
4 Thoughtcast
4 Stifle
4 Vision Charm
2 Springleaf Drum

Sideboard
4 Winter Orb
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Pithing Needle

If you would play vial, with vial you can also cheat a nought in play, that is if you have 2 in hand :)

[Reaver027]

well its me again.

last weekend i was playing basicly the same list i posted last page but replaced chrome mox with vial. i was playing really bad magic so i wont post a full report.
only one match was good. remaining 4 i made one mistake after the other or was mana screwed.

vial was much better than mox so i gues these will be permament in my deck now. but i am not sure if i want 4. i think 3 might be better. and i think i will also drop one vision charm and perhaps even 1 plating for now. and will test with 2 or 3 more lands to avoid the mana screw a little. think i might test wastelands or just more islands. a bit more blue mana could not hurt.

any thoughts on these changes?

oh btw i finally got my sibebaord the way i wanted (wasnt completed when i played):
3 Needles
4 Crypts
4 Chalice
4 Echoing

[Jon Stewart]

IMO, this deck makes more sense now than ever before. There's a ton more awesome blue artifacts, so you don't have to play useless cards like Ornithopter and can instead play actually good cards like Master of Epitherium etc.

Dreadnought + Stifle + Vision Charm is awesome.

Your opponent will use their artifact destruction on other artifacts, they won't expect this. Stifle is great at LD which goes great with the deck, you can also use it on opponents smokestack etc to avoid saccing stuff. Vision Charm protects all of your artifacts from removal by phasing them out for a turn.

[XiaN]

And if you are in your KeyTurn, it may also work as a "timewalk". Simply turn all their lands into a basicland type they don't need.

The second mode also works as tutor denial and may force them to put the top onto the library, so that you can dodge spells through the counterbalance.

I really like the charm and don't forget the "convert lands" mode. Sealed a lot of games for me.

[johanessen]

Lands
4 Wasteland
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Darksteel Citadel
3 Island
3 Blinkmoth Nexus

Creatures
4 Arcbound Worker
4 Ornithopter
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Master of Etherium

Spells
3 Standstill
4 Cranial Plating
4 Thoughtcast
4 Stifle
3 Vision Charm
4 Aether Vial


What about that? Gaining the power of standstill with vial and manlands seems good enough to play over fow. we can let fow out to sideboard against combo or some mu's we could need