[Deck] UW(x) Landstill

[xfrt]

Just an FYI, go read the Ultimate Walker Primer.

Also Test Disk please.

Wow. You're fucking unbelivable.

You never win any bigger events (have you won anything at all?), but still you claim yourself beeing a landstill-god. Your opinion isn't worth more then anyone else (vendillion clique in landstill, lol), but still you're barking like a mad dog whenever someone comes with a different opinion then yours.

Stop beeing a dick, and go out in the sun. Maybe even meet some people irl, and you might learn how to behave.

Warning issued. No flaming, please. Attack the points, not the poster.

-PR.

[gustha]

It seems no one does care of what I just said. Maybe moss' behaviour can be at times rude and over-confident, but who the hell are you to criticize him in this harsh way? Peace, man. Also, if he behaves wrongly as you claim, what does justify yourself to behave worse than him, as you do by yelling out loud insults at his head in a public topic? This is why this thread has become a s**t. Moss is wrong? Fair good, there's the possibility. I don't share all of his opinion and at times (like this time) its manners, but I still respect him. But please, demonstrate that this is true by behaving better, not worse. You're just not saying anything intelligent, just fodder for the mods. It should be an implicit rule in the advanced section that if you don't have anything good to say for the sake of the archetype you should better not post anything. This is not to defend moss, that I think is wrong this time; but to say that, flaming, you're just as stupid as the guy you think is a dick (if not more). If you want to teach humbleness, be humble. Have problems? Use the PM's. No one is interested in your flaming. And this does apply to everyone, not only to you.

And incidentally, though at the beginning I opposed vendilion clique, the card makes sense in landstill. If you don't understand it, maybe you should study landstill a bit more, and read the thread more carefully.

[J.V.]

Recently I have been testing out a new version of Landstill, I haven't been happy with the Walker versions of Landstill do to the walkers often not being very effective in the early game and sometimes clogging up your hand. I also wanted a version of Landstill that could gain large amounts of Card Advantage without necessarily casting a Standstilll. I will post my (impressive) results with the following list in the morning as I am incredibly tired and don't feel like typing them up now, anyways without further ado, I present BobStill:
// Lands
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
2 [A] Island (2)
3 [A] Tundra
1 [A] Scrubland
1 [TE] Wasteland
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
2 [A] Plains (2)
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [A] Underground Sea
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [A] Swamp (1)

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
3 [OD] Standstill
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [A] Swords to Plowshares
3 [TE] Diabolic Edict
3 [CFX] Path to Exile
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [A] Counterspell

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [MOR] Negate
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 1 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 1 [A] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds

[gustha]

I'm really curious to read the results... On paper, (not talking about the manabase) I cannot understand why diabolc edict is better than, say, vindicate, and how 4 confidant is better than, say, 4 jace (no creature removal, no spell snare, immediate card availability, fair better in mirror matches, also nuts with top). Also, it seems a little low on wincons, since the primary winning plan seems mishra/bob beatdown, at times dragon. No elspeth, no decree, only 3 mishra and no maindeck crucible. You have plenty of removals, but are they enough to clear the board to victory in the aggro MU? Also, I count only 15 blue cards. This, on paper. I'll wait for you typing your results for further considerations :wink:

[Ectoplasm]

I'm really curious to read the results... On paper, (not talking about the manabase) I cannot understand why diabolc edict is better than, say, vindicate, and how 4 confidant is better than, say, 4 jace (no creature removal, no spell snare, immediate card availability, fair better in mirror matches, also nuts with top). Also, it seems a little low on wincons, since the primary winning plan seems mishra/bob beatdown, at times dragon. No elspeth, no decree, only 3 mishra and no maindeck crucible. You have plenty of removals, but are they enough to clear the board to victory in the aggro MU? Also, I count only 15 blue cards. This, on paper. I'll wait for you typing your results for further considerations :wink:

Well he obviously cut the decrees/wogs/elspeths to lower the amount of damage received from Bob which is a nice idea on paper, but like you I wonder if the 4 bobs make up for the lack of big draw such as FoF.

The question is: Is it easier to protect a jace from creatures trying to beat him up than it is to protect Bob from plows trying to send him farming?

[gustha]

Course it is. This is exactly the idea behind speedstill. Jace works well with tons of removal -> if jace works well, you draw tons of removal -> if you draw tons of removal, jace works well. And so on. Plus its blue, evades spell snare, attacking him is less damadge directed to our head and we have multiple copies to replace him with, just in case. Plus we don't need to cut our board control element/wincons, and vs mirror generates tons of CA (while bob gives the opponent a reason to not side out spot removals g2, and makes his EE's useful). Don't know, bob seems really underpowered in comparison, say, to both jace and fof. But that is, this is talking theoretically until JV posts his considerations to clear our doubts...

[jimirynk]

I have been playing Geoffs list from the last hadley torn. and I've been very impressed with the MD.

If you think the deck is to slow I advise you to test it, I even went 2-1 preboard testing vs. Led dredge.

I miss spell snar vs. PoP and tempthresh only, and I run 3 in the board.

FoF just better than top 4 Bs and 1 Eternal dragon assures your early land drops the same as top but isn't as slow and clunky.

Sry this is so poorly writen just woke up late night of testing dreadstill/landstill..

[mossivo1986]

Recently I have been testing out a new version of Landstill, I haven't been happy with the Walker versions of Landstill do to the walkers often not being very effective in the early game and sometimes clogging up your hand. I also wanted a version of Landstill that could gain large amounts of Card Advantage without necessarily casting a Standstilll. I will post my (impressive) results with the following list in the morning as I am incredibly tired and don't feel like typing them up now, anyways without further ado, I present BobStill:
// Lands
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
2 [A] Island (2)
3 [A] Tundra
1 [A] Scrubland
1 [TE] Wasteland
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
2 [A] Plains (2)
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [A] Underground Sea
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [A] Swamp (1)

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
3 [OD] Standstill
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [A] Swords to Plowshares
3 [TE] Diabolic Edict
3 [CFX] Path to Exile
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [A] Counterspell

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [MOR] Negate
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 1 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 1 [A] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds

I really like the idea but I think UGWB thresh might be just a better decision in the long run, but I don't know i've never tested that.

As far as XFRT is concerned: Post a list and move past the (Deckcheck) b.s. We both know that argument is pretty ridiculous.

[NQN]

Could someone explain me why it´s good to nullify the virtual CA you gain by NOT playing creatures and activating early mishras?

[rockout]

It causes your opponent to draw a fair amount of dead cards in the form of removal. The way I see it is the more dead cards your opponent has the higher the chance of you being able to buy yourself turns and have the answer for their threats when they come along.

Think of it this way: They draw stp, land, bob, land, smother, goyf, land...

They have 2 dead cards in the form of smother and stp where you most likely saw 1-2 removal spells for goyf/confidant or atleast a counter and probably saw 7-10 cards depending on what you draw. You just have to remember late game that your opponent has either been stock piling removal the entire game and your e dragon/mishra's will be sitting ducks or they just shuffled them away with brainstorm and you can beat with those sexy 2/2 men.

Edit: I didn't explain it very well. I will mod this post when I get back.

[gustha]

I think NQN has well in mind the advantage of the virtual CA we gain by NOT playing creatures and animate early mishra's. I think his question was headed to the list with bob. He asked (translated): "why would it ever be good to play bob (a creature) in landstill, knowing that doing this we nullify the virtual CA etc. etc. etc."? (NQN correct me, if I misunderstood.) I think this is the question we all are posing to JV's list, till he updates testing results...

[mossivo1986]

I think NQN has well in mind the advantage of the virtual CA we gain by NOT playing creatures and animate early mishra's. I think his question was headed to the list with bob. He asked (translated): "why would it ever be good to play bob (a creature) in landstill, knowing that doing this we nullify the virtual CA etc. etc. etc."? (NQN correct me, if I misunderstood.) I think this is the question we all are posing to JV's list, till he updates testing results...

This is why I said what I said about 4c thresh.

[J.V.]

Honestly I recently scrapped the Bobstill List, it was functioning similarly to "Speedstill" but after more testing I'd have to agree that Jace is just better since it leaves their Spot Removal Dead.

[mossivo1986]

Small update from before.


// Lands
1 [B] Underground Sea
1 [B] Scrubland
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [B] Tundra
3 [GUR] Island
3 [GUR] Plains
3 [JGC] Mishra's Factory
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
2 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 [LRW] Jace Beleren

// Spells
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
1 [TE] Humility
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
3 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [OD] Standstill
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [B] Wrath of God
1 [B] Nevinyrral's Disk
2 [FNM] Counterspell
1 [AP] Vindicate

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SC] Decree of Justice
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 2 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 3 [MOR] Negate
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds

[gustha]

This is why I said what I said about 4c thresh.
Yes, and I agreed with that, though I were curious to see why we could have replied to that sort of question NQN posed. But JV himslef recognised that jace is far better in the same slot, so no matter what, bob is far more good for 4c/ugb thresh.

@your list. It seems quite fine. 6 basics and 6 fetches is good, I'm trying to find room myself for the same number, but I don't want to cut a mishra since I don't run decree. I don't like that much the singleton vindicate (tested and played at some tournaments: not tutorable, definitely not worth a singleton slot but at least 2-3 to work correctly): isn't it better to run that 3rd decree MD instead, and leave a wishable disenchant effect SB? That slot may also be the 3rd elspeth. I think it deserves a test, for the reasons I already explained:
-best overall impact on gamestate than decree;
-we just never side a single copy out (maybe only against combo)
-just better in the mirror match
-seeing one every game is a must
-less investment for each copy to resolve and once resolved, proportionally
-playing disk, almost an assurance to combo with it
-doj takes time, elspeth pushes the game not giving the opponent the time to capitalize on the time you are buying.
I know it sounds a bit weird and I was skeptical too before testing, but eh man, the 3rd elspeth does great things.

@the sideaboard:
-do you feel well with only 2 relics to face ichorid/aggroloam?
-2 path: I atm run 1 path 1 vedalken shackles: i tested it and it's absolutely a bomb, plus it gives another wincon in the mirror. I think it's viable for you to run it, since you have sufficient MD removals to support the lack of the second wishable path.

BTW: nice quote :laugh:

[mossivo1986]

Gustha

I don't like that much the singleton vindicate (tested and played at some tournaments: not tutorable, definitely not worth a singleton slot but at least 2-3 to work correctly)


Here is the study. I did a lot of testing against Counter Top.

Back story: D.I.F and I were having a debate at precisely how good Land Still's match up against thresh actually is. On my side I argued that I had never lost a match in tournament play to any thresh variant and that I considered all 3 match ups to range from 60%-70% depending upon the variant. D.I.F's argument was not only was it not favorable, but that (White Splash) Thresh has Control of the Long game. The only Wild Card for Land Still being Decree of Justice (Part of the reason I'm so easy to play the 3rd copy in the sb.)

So D.I.F. has me play Adan. For all of you living under a bridge Adan is a S.P.O.D member as well and a long time poster in the source. His weapon of choice is currently Thresh Variants, though he's no noob to Land Still (See early posts on this thread.) Adan and I duked it out to a 2-2 split in the end. Now also keep in mind that this is when I was playing 1 relic in the MD and it was helpful.

Also to Note: Every time Adan got the lock he landed Teeg and proceeded to win the game. Games he didn't Stop me were games in which I landed relevant removal followed by CA then rinse and repeat as normal. The really interesting thing was that Relic was terrible against thresh for the most part. It really either landed was hit from the start, or just terrible overall. You basically never want to draw it as you'd rather have a more relivent removal spell. It doesn't save you any sort of real time as thresh picks right back up with their continuous shenanigans of kan-trips and small dudes that pack a punch.

It was through this testing that I decided R2D was simply too slow for it's initial purpose and also crap if your opponent has the lock in play. So I decided to be a bit more proactive.

-1 Vendillion
-1 Relic

+1 Snare
+1 Vindicate.

more protection against top, helps tremendously against planeswalkers and basicly a solid portion of the format. You can also really hurt a guy who misses a land drop on t2 by nailing him and going to t4 with him on 1-2 land. Also the third wish is simply too much and you do need some sort of efficieny in a deck running nev disk + Wish. Vindicate, Relic, E Tutor were my options.




: isn't it better to run that 3rd decree MD instead, and leave a wishable disenchant effect SB?

Not in my testing.


That slot may also be the 3rd elspeth. I think it deserves a test, for the reasons I already explained:
-best overall impact on gamestate than decree;
-we just never side a single copy out (maybe only against combo)
-just better in the mirror match
-seeing one every game is a must
-less investment for each copy to resolve and once resolved, proportionally
-playing disk, almost an assurance to combo with it
-doj takes time, elspeth pushes the game not giving the opponent the time to capitalize on the time you are buying.
I know it sounds a bit weird and I was skeptical too before testing, but eh man, the 3rd elspeth does great things.

I tested the 3rd elspeth and it simply wasn't as phenominal with Top. I see Elspeth Very consistently.

@the sideaboard:

-do you feel well with only 2 relics to face ichorid/aggroloam?

Aggro Loam yes, ichorid probobly not but I've beat ichorid on hand of 5.


-2 path: I atm run 1 path 1 vedalken shackles: i tested it and it's absolutely a bomb, plus it gives another wincon in the mirror.

True and True, I just prefer the EP instead. Theres no fourth EP slot in my board and shackles is a bit intense for my personal tastes. In my testing it was win more and often just added protection.
[QUOTE]

about the quote (Thanx u2).

Also I want to Test Bitter ordeal. I think it could be a possible answer to TES/ant. It completely hoe's them out and with a large enough grave storm you can just annihilate their backup plan as well. I dont know though much testing is needed but I think its worth it to try.

[gustha]

+1 Vindicate.

more protection against top, helps tremendously against planeswalkers and basicly a solid portion of the format. You can also really hurt a guy who misses a land drop on t2 by nailing him and going to t4 with him on 1-2 land. Also the third wish is simply too much and you do need some sort of efficiency in a deck running nev disk + Wish.
Precisely why you could run -1 counterspell +1 vindicate as well, in addiction to the other vindicate you already have. I'm testing intensively the hybrid list I put up recently (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=372956&postcount=2738) and starting to believe in it. Vindicate is strong, so strong that I see little reason not to up the count to 2 (maybe switching a tundra for a sea, or a plains for a swamp). From what I see, you have the room and the correct manabase to support it. Vindicate does a lot more than "just" deal with a resolved cb, but I think it's not necessary to tell you things you already know. It's just a suggestion, however.


I tested the 3rd elspeth and it simply wasn't as phenominal with Top. I see Elspeth Very consistently.
You have a point here, the 3 tops' engine is much better that the 2 tops', still the 3rd copy has some advantages in terms of costs reduced and combo frequency that I still prefer. It's not excluded that if I don't find room for the 3rd EE in my list (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=28469) (don't look at the sb, I changed it almost entirely), the 3rd elspeth is a good candidate to go out.


True and True, I just prefer the EP instead. Theres no fourth EP slot in my board and shackles is a bit intense for my personal tastes. In my testing it was win more and often just added protection.
It's an interesting point of view, since I left out the 4th EP for a shackles :tongue: But again, not having decree I feel I need more assurance especially in the mirror, plus it's good vs aggro in general not only tribals (and elemental for burn, and ofc ichorid), and I always play at least 1 path MD so I find the room for shackles very easily.


Also I want to Test Bitter ordeal. I think it could be a possible answer to TES/ant. It completely hoe's them out and with a large enough grave storm you can just annihilate their backup plan as well. I dont know though much testing is needed but I think its worth it to try.
Mmmm. Remember that grave storm works only with permanent put in the grave. Admitting to play it on t3 at sorcery speed (but we must dedicate at least 3 slots sb....true it may turn good in the mirror too), we must have 2-3 fetches to exile 3-4 cards. Don't know...Let me know the results of your testings. Cranial extraction?Extract? Too slow/too weak?

[mossivo1986]

Fuck didn't realize that. I haven't played with the mechanic before and the rules text on my mws is worded out so I didn't exactly think that through thoroughly.

Ok well going on with the (they don't have enough ways to win in their deck and exposing that weakness) there has to be a spell that has something like that relevance.

Hide/Seek is an option but not quite what we are looking for- though it does hoze tendrills and gain us 4 life against grapeshot kill. Is that relevant?

Also note: I wouldnt switch cs #2 for a vindicate. Though I do agree that vindicate is that good, I still do want to stop things from being casted.

Fuck just lost to dreadstill online
g1 double goyf double wasteland daze and force meets my 3 land hand where I dont see another land for 14 turns which I procede to die. I peeled 3 and I still didnt see a land. Worst mana pocket ever?

g2 we stay preboard and I make a risky call on t4 elspeth with crap on top 3 and force in hand. He dazes I force he brainstorms and forces my elspeth. Goyf eats me while I dig. I hit delta and with 2 tops on top and one in play I make the lethal decision to fetch away my top and grab sea with my last card in hand I play vindicate. He forces. Refer to quote. . . .

I guess that makes me XX-4 against dreadstill. How sad.

[ultimoman]

I just got my ass kicked over 2 games against Thresh. I wasn't getting enough lands and their Wastes/Stifles didn't help. I run 61 cards; 23 lands, with 3 Brainstorm, 2 Tops, and an E. Dragon. I've been thinking of adding another land but can't decide what to take out.

[GGoober]

I run 23 Lands with 1 EDragon as the 24th land in 61 cards. If you feel this isn't enough lands, just run 24 lands in 61 cards, and if that's not enough, do 24 lands in 60 cards, or just run 3Top/1Crucible in 60 cards, which is better. It depends on your meta.

[ultimoman]

After thinking more on it I could probably go:

-1 E.E.
-1 Island

+1 Crucible of Worlds
+1 Tolaria West

Land destruction won't be as bad and I can search for the other 2 Explosives with West if needed. I love 3 Explosives but there's not much else to take out, my blue count is already 18. That could be too slow though and Merfolk certainly wouldn't mind a slower E.E. I do use 2 Vindicate but am not sure going down to 1 is a good idea. Taking out the Dragon is an option as well I suppose, although finding lands is quite useful.

[Citrus-God]

I just got my ass kicked over 2 games against Thresh. I wasn't getting enough lands and their Wastes/Stifles didn't help. I run 61 cards; 23 lands, with 3 Brainstorm, 2 Tops, and an E. Dragon. I've been thinking of adding another land but can't decide what to take out.

Have you thought about maybe you should cut your fetchland count down and like run 25 mana sources?

[rsaunder]

Have you thought about maybe you should cut your fetchland count down and like run 25 mana sources?
What does your manabase look like?

I've been running the
6 fetch (4/2 strand/delta)
6 Basic (3/3 island plains)
6 Duals (4/1/1 for B splash)
3 Waste
3 Factory

manabase for most of my testing against tempo decks and I must say, with 2 tops MB it's never been a problem whatsoever. I mean against stuff like deadguy it gets a little rough sometimes, but that's supposed to happen. You have to be 43land.dec to avoid that.

EDIT: I also run either 1 crucible or 1 dragon in 60 cards. That does make a difference every now and then.

[NQN]

Allthough the idea is dismissed, I just wanted to thank gustha for "clearing up" my point ;) You did well!

@Jace: I´ve cutted Jace for 1 FoF again because it actually sucks against:
Goblins,Merrows,Goyfsligh which are the most common aggro decks and it isn´t even that good against the rest (except for control which is actually not played over here).

Edit: My manabase is: 6 basics, 6 fetchies, 6 duals, 5-ofcolour lands with 1 Dragon, 2 Tops and 3-4 BS. And even I get problems sometimes against Price/wastelock etc.

[konsultant]

Smelski just 2-1 merfolk by using preacher in his build.
He one game 2 on a mull to 5 with that card.

Lol I won that game at one life as well. Preacher has been very solid, i've beaten Merfolk the last three times I was paired against it.

I went 6-2 at Gencon, taking a lame 17th place out of 188 due to tie breakers. I don't know if it's just me but the prize support thier continue's to get worse every year. I'm fairly certain at 188 people it should have been 9 rounds but I could be wrong.

I also went 5-0-2 in the swiss of the Ancestral Recall event this past weekend, 65 people. I lost in top 8 to Ichorid whitch was also my second loss in round 7 at gencon.

This is with no real change's to my previously posted list. Anybody who wants to should be able to find my exact list from this past weekend in the top 8 decklists thread or the thread for the event in Vestal.

Really couldn't be any happier with the list but I am currently reviewing the Ichorid match up.

[dal9ll]

Hello fellow Landstillers!

Im brand-new to this the Source as a member (not so new as a lurker, lol) but Ive really been enjoying how helpful the threads and the contributions here have been. I’d like to get some opinions on this U/W Landstill deck of mine. I haven’t played it competitively yet but it generally seems to flow pretty well. Im just seeking to optimize it. Here’s the list:

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Wrath of God
2 Nevinyrrl’s Disk
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Humility
2 Decree of Justice

4 Wastleand
4 Flooded Strand
3 Faerie Conclave
4 Mishra’s Factory
1 Hallowed Fountain
5 Island
3 Plains

Sideboard:
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Pulse of the Fields
2 Stifle
2 Hydroblast
2 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Disenchant

I know Ive only got 2 Decrees and no Elspeth (she costs too much $$$$) but I run more Conclaves than most other Landstill decks I see out there. The Conclaves contribute well to my favorite play with this deck:

Turn 1: Land
Turn 2: Man-land, Standstill
Turn 3: beat face with Man-land under Standstill until opponent cracks

Any assistance is very much appreciated!!

Thanks

[NQN]

Read the past 10 pages-> Figure out what´s good and whats not(4 wasteland and conclaves f.e.) and the post again.
Thx :)

[Shawn]

Congrats on another top 8, Geoff. Why do you play Preacher over Vedalken Shackles? Is it because most decks will take out their removal against landstill game two, and usually bring in Krosan Grips? Also, what types of decks do you bring them in against?

[paK0]

Ok, i could use a little help here from people who have more of an idea of this deck than I do. I've played a budget version for quite some time, and i kinda like the deck so i really want to build a "real" one. I have a basic idea of the shell i wanna play, but i need some help/suggestions for the last slots and some opinions on the stuff already there:

I basically wanna stick to the Walker theme and i wanna maintain the red splash but I'm not sold on what exactly.

The second thing i need help with ist the metagame stuff, I know what is played, but I'm not too good at fine tuning, so i hope you can help me out =).

My meta looks like this:

Dominant: GoyfSligh, Merfolk
Others: CounterTop, Dread/Land/Walkerstill, BantSurvival, Goblins, some Stompys


Here is the list im more or less sold on, I still appreciate every kind of critism^^


// Lands

3 [US] Plains (4)

3 [APL] Island (3)

4 [ON] Flooded Strand

2 [ON] Polluted Delta

4 [R] Tundra

1 [U] Plateau

2 [U] Volcanic Island

2 [TE] Wasteland

3 [4E] Mishra's Factory



// Creatures

1 [SC] Eternal Dragon

2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant

1 [ALA] Ajani Vengeant



// Spells

3 [OD] Standstill

3 [DIS] Spell Snare

2 [MM] Counterspell

4 [MM] Brainstorm

4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares

2 [10E] Wrath of God

2 [FD] Engineered Explosives

2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top

1 [TE] Humility



// Sideboard

SB: 2 [LRW] Jace Beleren

SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus

SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt

SB: 3 [OV] Pyroblast

SB: 2 [10E] Crucible of Worlds

SB: 1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor






So, my thoughts are the following:

Since i splash red i could go for Lightning Helix, for Fire//Ice or a combination of Humility and some Pyroclasm stuff.

I could fit another Ajani.

I need a Draw engine (2 or 3 cards) I think either Jace or FoF. Jace is the normal choice, but can i run him in an aggro infested meta?

What about en E-Tutor package?

Cunning Wish + adjust sb?

Which Cardcounts should be upped?




Lots of questions, i hope someone can give me some answears^^.
Tnx in advance.

[Shugyosha]

My list I'm running for some time now looks similar pak0.

UWr Walkerstill (http://magic-decks.de/deck-1284-7fbe0c3566bfa23eebd431634dafdb6f-de.html)

Mainboard the 2 Path and 2 Walkers each are really good giving you alot of consistency. No Snares is just a test run. The 3 Spell Snare list cuts -1 CSpell and -2 FoF.

Clasms in the board were extremely good and are easily mainddeck material in tribal metagames. I would change +1 Clasm -1 Crypt in my board but leave the rest as it is. Although I don't board Finks in many matches they are definately very good against Zoo and Goblins.

[konsultant]

Congrats on another top 8, Geoff. Why do you play Preacher over Vedalken Shackles? Is it because most decks will take out their removal against landstill game two, and usually bring in Krosan Grips? Also, what types of decks do you bring them in against?

Several reasons actually. Primarily because Preacher runs off of white mana not Islands. With all of my removal being White, them running a very fast deck with Counter magic and Wastelands I want to be able to get the basic Plains in play as fast as possable and I need cards that are going to work with White Mana. Secondly yes Preacher does not get Krosan Gripped and since they run zero actual creature kill in Merfolk they have very few answers for him. Third is because he is far less of a mana investment, 3 mana once and he is online. I've tested Shackles and it's a turn slower because you are down an additional two mana the turn after you cast it plus Merfolk Reejery can untap it giving them thier creature back for one turn whitch can be enough to kill you. If they untap Preacher you meerly tap it again and say "ok?". Or atleast thats what I did the last time my opponent tried it on me.

Haven't tested him enough to tell you what match ups he is really relevent in and where you should leave him in the SB. I kinda just make that judgement call on fly when side boarding. I did bring him versus dreadstill in the top 8 of the 60 man prelim event at gencon and when I dropped him my opponent had boarded out all his answers that could have dealt with it and it was pretty game breaking.

[paK0]

@Shugyosha:

Tnx, that list looks like something to work with :D; i have some question though:

Why the stone? Disk seems stronger since it lets you Walkers live and costs less mana

2 FoF and 2 Jace seem a lot of draw together with the Standstill, is it fine or too much sometimes?

No love for Wrath of God?


I'll update my list after i do some testing, bt tnx already, guess that helped me^^


Just one thing, does anyone have a list with Lightning Helix?
Is seems like a real gamewinner in my meta =).

[Citrus-God]

What does your manabase look like?


2 Eternal Dragon

1 Academy Ruins
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
3 Island
3 Plains

[Shugyosha]

Why the stone? Disk seems stronger since it lets you Walkers live and costs less mana

2 FoF and 2 Jace seem a lot of draw together with the Standstill, is it fine or too much sometimes?

No love for Wrath of God?

Just one thing, does anyone have a list with Lightning Helix?
Is seems like a real gamewinner in my meta =).

Your argument for Disk is true but Stone on the other hand has the merit to kill planeswalkers (UWb has Vindicates for them). Walkers turn up in various decks here nowadays and other LS decks of course. With 6 Walkers I never had the problem with Stone or I had enough time to put a fate counter on it. The whole fate counter thing is also really good in the lategame but comes up rarely I admit.

Yeah FoF is nuts or shitty only, never in between or constant so that's why I might me going back to snares as I said earlier (-2 FoF -1 CSpell +3 Snares). Jace on the other hand is very good in a build with 6 Swords effects and usually draws a shitton of cards.

Wrath would be another cmc 4 card and it wasn't good against tribal decks (with mana denial) for me. A teammate plays the list with 2 Wrath however. I would rather maindeck Clasms or Firespout (there aren't many flyers to worry about).

I ran Fire/Ice in the beginning but cut it as it was clearly the worst card. Helix might be better but not pitchable and is difficult to cast early on when you want it but also want to fetch a stable manabase with UU and WW for CSpell and Elspeth/Humility.

[Mister Agent]

I definitely like the Preacher tech Geoff and it seemed to work for you rather well in your tournament experiences.

I got a chance to test preacher myself and I ended up boarding him in a good portion of my matches. I definitely have been impressed with him so far. He's pretty reliable especially when your other removal spells aren't taking care of business.

Also, Congrats on your finishes Geoff!

[dal9ll]

Here's a question:

Why do people run 1 Dust Bowl over Wasteland?

[ClearSkies]

Because Dust Bowl can turn your "extra" lands into Wastelands.

[dal9ll]

Is it overkill to run a Dust Bowl with, say, 2-3 Wasteland?

[Ectoplasm]

I really dislike the dustbowl since it's a liability in standstill-wars against say, merfolk, or another landstill deck since 1 well-aimed wasteland will just rape all the LD potential your deck had. But alot of people seem to like it so who am I to comment?

You could replace a wasteland with a dustbowl though, but IMO wasting landdrops without running crucible isn't a very good idea but meh :/

[Mark Sun]

I really dislike the dustbowl since it's a liability in standstill-wars against say, merfolk, or another landstill deck since 1 well-aimed wasteland will just rape all the LD potential your deck had. But alot of people seem to like it so who am I to comment?

You could replace a wasteland with a dustbowl though, but IMO wasting landdrops without running crucible isn't a very good idea but meh :/

Haha, I recently redid my mana base and went from Dust Bowl --> 2x Wasteland (playing around currently to make room for a third). I agree, in the mirror /// decks with Wasteland, it sometimes becomes very difficult to win the LD war. Merfolk definitely stands out, as unfavorable as it is having playing against Mutavaults under a Standstill.

[Maxe]

How ur manabase looks like if ur playing with 2 Vindicate and SB 1 Extirpate +3 Plague?

4 Tundra
1 USea (or better 2?)
1 Scrub
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Academy Ruins
3 Mishras (i dont know why only 3, why 4th is gone?)
2 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp (shouldnt this the 4th mishra or 3rd wasteland?)
2 Wasteland

1 Eternal Dragon

[Mark Sun]

How ur manabase looks like if ur playing with 2 Vindicate and SB 1 Extirpate +3 Plague?

4 Tundra
1 USea (or better 2?)
1 Scrub
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Academy Ruins
3 Mishras (i dont know why only 3, why 4th is gone?)
2 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp (shouldnt this the 4th mishra or 3rd wasteland?)
2 Wasteland

1 Eternal Dragon

Pretty much, I run 3/3 Strand and Delta for more consistency fetch-wise though. The basic swamp there is great in order to dodge Moon effects, so I believe it is correct to add it there.

[Jak]

// Lands
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
2 [U] Plains (3)
2 [MI] Island (2)
2 [U] Volcanic Island
2 [TE] Wasteland
4 [R] Tundra
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
1 [R] Plateau
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand

// Creatures
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
3 [B] Counterspell
3 [IN] Fact or Fiction
3 [B] Wrath of God
4 [MM] Brainstorm
1 [R] Nevinyrral's Disk
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 [OD] Standstill
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [ALA] Ajani Vengeant
4 [U] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AL] Force of Will

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [IN] Fact or Fiction
SB: 2 [SC] Decree of Justice
SB: 3 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 2 [TSP] Return to Dust
SB: 2 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
SB: 2 [MOR] Negate
SB: 3 [IA] Pyroblast

I may try adding 3 Cunning Wish since without Vindicate (which the normal UWx lists run), I feel he deck loses a bit of flexibility. However, Ajani is insane.

If I do add Wishes (which is difficult because of space), my board would end up being...

1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Return to Dust / Dismatling Blow
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Counterspell / Negate
4 Path to Exile
3 Pyroblast
2 Decree of Justice
2 Crucible of Worlds

If I do see a lot of aggro in my meta and if I ever play this, I might try and fit 3 Firespout and some Lightning Helix in or something.

[Wasteland]

My actual build, which i'm going to play in Milano:

//Lands
4x tundra
4x island
2x plains
4x flooded strand
2x polluted delta
4x mishra's factory
1x dustbowl
1x underground sea
1x scrubland

//Blue spells
4x brainstorm
3x spell snare
2x counterspell
2x cunning wish
4x standstill
4x force of will

//White spells
4x swords to plowshares
2x path to exile
2x wrath of god
1x decree of justice
1x humility
2x elspeth, knight errant

//Artifacts
3x engineered explosives
2x sensei's divining top
1x crucible of worlds

//Sideboard
3x blue elemental blast
3x counterbalance
1x path to exile
1x pulse of the fields
1x enlightened tutor
2x ray of distortion
1x engineered plague (only good vs elves / goblins together with humility, so 1 as tutor-target)
3x relic of progenitus

I know, that i do not have no fact or fiction, which can be a bomb but which are, in my opinion in the actual meta far too slow (considering zoo / merfolk...)
Further i don't know yet, wether i'll play the 2 Paths or add 2 Vindicates instead of them.

Greetz from Germany,
Marius Hausmann

[gustha]

My actual build, which i'm going to play in Milano:

//Lands
4x tundra
4x island (-1 island +1 academy ruins?)
2x plains
4x flooded strand
2x polluted delta
4x mishra's factory
1x dustbowl (if you are going to play vindicate, -1 bowl - 1 island + 2 wasteland can be a good thing, i think)
1x underground sea
1x scrubland

//Blue spells
4x brainstorm
3x spell snare
2x counterspell
2x cunning wish
4x standstill
4x force of will

//White spells
4x swords to plowshares
2x path to exile
2x wrath of god
1x decree of justice
1x humility
2x elspeth, knight errant

//Artifacts
3x engineered explosives
2x sensei's divining top
1x crucible of worlds

//Sideboard
3x blue elemental blast
3x counterbalance
1x path to exile
1x pulse of the fields
1x enlightened tutor
2x ray of distortion
1x engineered plague (only good vs elves / goblins together with humility, so 1 as tutor-target)
3x relic of progenitus


I know, that i do not have no fact or fiction, which can be a bomb but which are, in my opinion in the actual meta far too slow (considering zoo / merfolk...) I think fof is actually a bomb in an aggro meta, due to landstill having tons of board control elements, and I think fof is superior to top in an aggro meta because you do want the answers, and lots of answer all at once, so card advantage is more important than card quality. I'd go -1 top -1 standstill (not if the meta is very aggroish) to find room for 2 fof's.

Further i don't know yet, wether i'll play the 2 Paths or add 2 Vindicates instead of them Maybe you should play vindicate in the place of wrath, ihmo.:tongue: Regarding the sb, i don't like so much beb (negate is more versatile), and I'm asking how do you feel with counterbalance. I mean, to actually stop combo you'll need at least 3 tops md and 4 cb SB. Also, your list doesn't support the curve, lacks of cc2 (to support this lack, when I played cb I also played 3-4 MM and 2-3 runed halo SB). Ihmo it doesn't fit very well in your deck. I also do wonder why 2 disenchant effect with flashback (so 4 total) in the sb. Afraid of something? Engineered plague is not only good vs tribal (it is not good: it's nuts!), but also against ichorid (horror and illusion mainly) and vs random burn which runs elemental.
I hope you'll have a good time in Milano. I can't attend the tournament because of an exam. Sigh.

[Wasteland]

First of all: NOTHING beats Top - if i played a mirror, i would force an opponents top.
-1 Island +1 academy ruins allows the recursion, i know that, but make the solid manabase worse (only 14 blue sources then)
Wrath of God is again a Card i would never cut. It has cc4, evades C-balance, is a solution for EVERY creature (even Progenitus) and make often the necessary card-advantage. Another point is, that you need a board-sweeper against Goblins, Elves and other swarm-decks like white weenie, where vindicate does not enough. One more Problem with Vindicate is the need of black mana, which you often don't want to fetch (basic lands are tech...)
Counterbalance is the best answer to combo decks (tested it quite much), ecspecially with boarding the enlightened tutor too, which can fetch the missing lock-piece.
CC2 is low, you are right there, but against TES it's often even better to have a land on top of the library.
Blue Elemental Blast is in against Goblins / Zoo and does a great Job (for what you want to play negate)
Greetz, Marius

[gustha]

I've tested top long enough to know it's a good card, but that doesn't mean it's by all means the best card in every strategy and in every meta. Top is nuts against lots of deck, but if you are going in a really aggroish meta, CQ is maybe not sufficient. I'd rather have a singleton top to control the lategame, and 4 solid standstill with 1-2 fof's to control the midgame. (BTW, forcing an opponent top is sometimes a stupid thing, since most lists run at least 2, and academy ruins will bring it back however. The thing is different if we're talking of a t1 top and you don't have one in hand.)

@academy ruins: i really don't think cutting 1 island would devastate your manabase. With ruins you have only 6 nonbasics (you can easily cut a mishra if you want to remain 5 nonbasics), plus you have 6 fetches to access the right mana, plus your deck basically relies on 2 colours, the 3rd being a little splash, so I really don't see the problem in piloting a bicolour deck with "only" 14 blue mana fonts. For the sake of the deck, you could as well remove black and use red for firespout and not noticing the difference (also, gives access to reb in the sb). However, that -1 island +1 ruins would only improve you board control, without negative effects on the manabase. If you feel you need that 4th island, better cut 1 mishra (ruins is more important than the 4th mishra).

@wrath: nothing to say, if there is plenty of gobbos and weenies, than it's correct. Against merfolks and elves, all you need is to keep lords off the table and a well timed plague/firespout (red is also a good colour) for a wrath effect.

@beb: i don't want to board that thing against gobbos or zoo. Better 3 solid plague for the first (which turn handy for any other tribals, and ichorid, and sometimes burn), and wish for pulse in the case of zoo. And I don't obviously wanna play negate for these MU's. :laugh:

[ultimoman]

I use 2 Top and 1 Fact now, I'm considering adding another FoF but I don't think I'd take out a Top; they're just too good.

[Omega]

I have to agree that generally, against aggro deck, you would much rather have card advantage over card quality (since your deck is packed with about 12 removal+)
That said, a turn 1 Sensei'S divining top is ALWAYS a good play (unless maybe against deck with Daze). If possible, playing a 2-2 split of FOF and TOp can be a good idea. That's what I do.

[Ectoplasm]

failed 2-3-1 today
G1: Got blown out by countertop with gaddock teeg and rhox war monks/trygon predators/vendilion cliques to hit my vindicate
G2: Got stuck on lands vs merfolk twice
G3: Raped zoo, Ajani MVP
G4: Raped Dragon Stompy, Preacher MVP
G5: Got blown out against zoo, later he told me he played 21 burn spells
G6: 1-1 vs aggro-loam, Preacher MVP again

Verdict: Should have mulled against merfolk, shouldn't have boarded out counterspells vs the 2nd zoo player and I have no idea what I could have done to win the countertop match. In game 2 he played a V. Clique, saw 2x decree of justice in my hand, loses clique, plays gaddock, swings with gaddock while I have 5 mana and says 'hmmm or not' and turns him back, he said he 'was still touching it' which he wasn't but he insisted that he was, so in the end I gave in and he got to keep his teeg.

Aggro-loam wasn't as bad a matchup as I thought it would be.

Overall it wasn't a very good day, but meh it's the 2nd time I brought this deck to a real tourney and I have made some bad calls such as not mulling a 1-lander vs merfolk because I had 3 plows.

[Mister Agent]

My actual build, which i'm going to play in Milano:

//Lands
4x tundra
4x island
2x plains
4x flooded strand
2x polluted delta
4x mishra's factory
1x dustbowl
1x underground sea
1x scrubland

//Blue spells
4x brainstorm
3x spell snare
2x counterspell
2x cunning wish
4x standstill
4x force of will

//White spells
4x swords to plowshares
2x path to exile
2x wrath of god
1x decree of justice
1x humility
2x elspeth, knight errant

//Artifacts
3x engineered explosives
2x sensei's divining top
1x crucible of worlds

//Sideboard
3x blue elemental blast
3x counterbalance
1x path to exile
1x pulse of the fields
1x enlightened tutor
2x ray of distortion
1x engineered plague (only good vs elves / goblins together with humility, so 1 as tutor-target)
3x relic of progenitus

I know, that i do not have no fact or fiction, which can be a bomb but which are, in my opinion in the actual meta far too slow (considering zoo / merfolk...)
Further i don't know yet, wether i'll play the 2 Paths or add 2 Vindicates instead of them.

Greetz from Germany,
Marius Hausmann

Nice to see you post in the landstill thread again Marius.

I like the build, it seems fitting in the current environment. Reminds me of one of Citrus God's builds actually. I remember he had 4 counterbalance in the sideboard at one point in time and I believed he also ran cunning wish.

[mossivo1986]

Nice to see you post in the landstill thread again Marius.

I like the build, it seems fitting in the current environment. Reminds me of one of Citrus God's builds actually. I remember he had 4 counterbalance in the sideboard at one point in time and I believed he also ran cunning wish.

I honestly was suprised how close my list was close to marius's.

[Tinefol]

Finished 10th in 72 people tourney today, with 5-2-0 result. Not too bad, but one point short of top8. Played UWR Walkerstill.

M1: Progenitus Bant (no C/B top). G1 I get careless and despite that sucessfully race Progenitus from 26hp. Game2 is like a walk it should be. Nothing hits the table and sticks on his side.
M2: RGWSA. My opponent never had a chance game1, countered and removed/destroyed everything. Game 2 he gets mana screwed and Ajani seals the deal with ultimate.
M3: Tempo Thresh. Both games were quick, Goyf and Goose backed by 2-3 forces and dazes. The usual way you lose to Tempo Thresh.
M4: Tempo Thresh. Unlike the previous match I convincingly won both games, my opponent didn't have a single combat phase.
M5: Merfolk. G1 my opponent got mana flooded after initial stage, G2 I keep a slow hand and lose to double lord, G3 I get a ton of spot removal and he's never good.
M6: A fight for the top. I lose to Leyline/Helm of Obedience combo (the eventual winner of the tourney), along with my hands raped by a bunch of duress/thoughtseize/hymns. Never had any counters or standstill anyway - hard to fight discard this way. Probably should have mulled the second hand. Also I had nothing to side in, I just couldn't kill 4cc art/enchantment permanents anyhow, so that's also my sideboard building error. Should have added some 'disenchant' effects.
M7: Goblins, G1 - multiple sword and wrath effects, G2 I stabilise on 4 hits with Humility in play and active Pulse of the Fields.

Conclusions: I didn't properly build Sideboard.
1 [TE] Humility // Sided against RWGSA and Goblins. Won a game vs goblins, wasn't useful against RGWSA, only because I already dominated it.
1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds // Came in against Tempo Threshes and Merfolk. Never could resolve it.
2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus // Vs RGWSA and Tempo Treshes. I even used it once. Always handy.
3 [MOR] Negate // Bad choice, there was no combo or burn (every burn player scrubbed out early), never sided it in.
1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor // Along with Humility
2 [9E] Circle of Protection: Red
1 [OD] Aegis of Honor // Both never left the S/B
2 [CFX] Path to Exile // Probably should be maindecked. Almost always sided one or two
1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields // Came handy against second thresh and goblins.
1 [5E] Energy Flux // doh... Read COP:Red, very bad choice.

Does anybody have some useful links on articles on how to properly sideboard? xD

[Omega]

It depends alot on what you've got maindeck.
Assuming you keep a Wishstill list.

Negate/Spellsnare : Are needed if you expect to face Burn, Combo and Mirror control.

Pulse of the Field : Always a good card to have in the sideboard

Extirpate x1 : As a one-of, it could be interesting for fighting against Graveyard.deck, and Control mirror. It can always be an amusing wish target (Extirpate all your goyf, for example)

More mass removal : Wrath of God, Humility. I like to have a 3rd Wrath of God in my sideboard in case of meeting a heavy aggro meta.

Engineered Plague : If tribal aggro is a problem, this card can come in handy, although I do not like it personally.

Relic of Progenitus : Very useful against graveyard deck (Tempo ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh : It buys you alot of time against them if you can resolve one. No need to comment its use against ichorid). I like to have 2 in my sideboard. In certain match where you have a lot of dead cards, Relic can act as a cantrip.

Crucible in the Sideboard is a good idea. Very good in the mirror. Very good against deck like ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh (Because their manabase is fragile and can be destroyed by a recurring Wasteland lock. Also, it serves as a way to stabilize your manabase against them. You need to reach 4+ land to be efficient against Tempo ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh. Crucible help you achieve this. Maindeck, I like to have Crucible/Eternal Dragon for that purpose

1 Path to exile as a wish target is never bad.

What is your maindeck? Usually, a sideboard is used to improved your bad matchup, but it is also used to fix your maindeck

Robert

[Mister Agent]

I honestly was suprised how close my list was close to marius's.

How so? Your list doesn't run counterbalance in any of the 75. I don't mean to be a jerk but this seems like a difference that's worth mentioning.

[mossivo1986]

How so? Your list doesn't run counterbalance in any of the 75. I don't mean to be a jerk but this seems like a difference that's worth mentioning.

I would argue that point. He uses Counterbalance, while I was playing negate. The difference is so mute that it really shouldn't be a point of contention. A point of contention would be that his approach is based more about removing aggro (2 main path 0 vindicate) then actually handling the rest of the format (Just a difference.)

[Mister Agent]

I would argue that point. He uses Counterbalance, while I was playing negate. The difference is so mute that it really shouldn't be a point of contention. A point of contention would be that his approach is based more about removing aggro (2 main path 0 vindicate) then actually handling the rest of the format (Just a difference.)

There is still a difference though because counterbalance is obviously more effective against zoo and storm combo then negate would be in that regard.

Also, he's probably running paths because they are significantly easier to cast against the likes of merfolks and fetching for more plains gives you a chance to cast wrath of god. That said, I don't see how this would be much of a point of contention since obviously one of landstill's objectives is setting the board state back to zero anyway.

[Wasteland]

Changes i'll perhaps do are -1 Path +1 Jace (which seams to be alot better then Fact or Fiction to me cause it does CA PERMANENTLY (and is less expensive) - 5 cc1 Spot Removals should be enough (+1 in the Sideboard)
Further i'll give a single Preacher in the SB a chance (instead of the 2. Ray of Distortion) due to its coolness :cool:
And for the negates: They are simply to slow vs. ANT - the Problem vs. theese Decks is not the amount of countermagic you have but their speed - a turn 2 Counterbalance should simply win against a fast Ad Nauseam, often even without a Sensei's Top, cause cc1 and cc0 are exactly what you want on top of your library in this case.
Greetz, Marius

[Citrus-God]

Not to mention that Counterbalance thrashes Zoo...

[mossivo1986]

Ive been attempting to do more testing against ant but unfortunately Ive been so busy with school.

Good to see that CB does the trick. I'll make the switch (Thats what the slot was designed for.) As for the extra slot I think im going to test oblivian stone.

My sb should look something like this:

2 path
3 EP
3 CB
2 relic
1 COW
1 E tutor
1 Pulse
1 E pate
1 O stone (or 3rd relic. need to test)

as for the maindeck

6 duals
6 fetches 4-2 split
6 basics 3-3 isl-pla
3 mishra
1 dust
1 academy

3 bs
3 still
3 top
1 jace

4 stp
3 ee
2 wrath
1 humility

4 force
3 counterspell
3 spell snare

2 elspeth
2 Decree

2 wish
1 disk
1 vindicate

Overall +1 cs -1 spell snare


Team Awesome is very excited to see a landfall card worthy of playing with synergystic crucible in the md again!

[Wasteland]

4. Brainstorm seams much better for me then 3. Top... (in fact, i would NEVER EVER cut a Brainstorm, which is possibly the best blue card in Legacy together with Force of Will - even Smelski didi admit this and added the 4. BS again to his List)
Only 3 Standstills maybe are a correct Metagame-Choice.
In your SB i really do not know, whether you need the Plagues...
They are not good vs. Merfolk and only effektive vs. Goblins and Elves, while Elves should not be a Problem at all and Blue Blast is great against Goblins too (and against Zoo / Dragon Stompy / Burn / Belcher...). Perhaps i'm going to cut the 1 out of the SB too and add 1 Extirpate, which seams to be more versatile
Greetz, Marius

[Jak]

Why are people cutting Brainstorm down? I mean, after Konsultant runs 3, everyone decides to cut it down. He even said it was just for his specific list. I just find the card so ridiculous that cutting it down just seems to dumbfound me. The only thing I can come up with is that people want to run more cards than they can fit (another example is people running 61 cards) so they cut down on Brainstorm.

[Citrus-God]

4. Brainstorm seams much better for me then 3. Top... (in fact, i would NEVER EVER cut a Brainstorm, which is possibly the best blue card in Legacy together with Force of Will - even Smelski didi admit this and added the 4. BS again to his List)
Only 3 Standstills maybe are a correct Metagame-Choice.
In your SB i really do not know, whether you need the Plagues...
They are not good vs. Merfolk and only effektive vs. Goblins and Elves, while Elves should not be a Problem at all and Blue Blast is great against Goblins too (and against Zoo / Dragon Stompy / Burn / Belcher...). Perhaps i'm going to cut the 1 out of the SB too and add 1 Extirpate, which seams to be more versatile
Greetz, Marius

Maybe your Merfolk match up is mediocre because you don't run Wastelands in the maindeck. It's the rage against Mutavaults... especially under Standstill.

[Elf_Ascetic]

Why are people cutting Brainstorm down? I mean, after Konsultant runs 3, everyone decides to cut it down. He even said it was just for his specific list. I just find the card so ridiculous that cutting it down just seems to dumbfound me. The only thing I can come up with is that people want to run more cards than they can fit (another example is people running 61 cards) so they cut down on Brainstorm.

Yes, finally. Thank you. 4 brainstorm is excellent, and is has always been just excellent.


@ Plague: I'm disliking it. Against merfolk, it barely does anything. You need 2 of them to win, so it eats 4 SB slots. Same is true for Goblins. What are the thoughts of 3 Firespouts in those slots? worth losing 'pate? (cause you're dumping B for R)

[rsaunder]

Yes, finally. Thank you. 4 brainstorm is excellent, and is has always been just excellent.


@ Plague: I'm disliking it. Against merfolk, it barely does anything. You need 2 of them to win, so it eats 4 SB slots. Same is true for Goblins. What are the thoughts of 3 Firespouts in those slots? worth losing 'pate? (cause you're dumping B for R)

I mentioned this a while ago, and it was met with little love. I had been more interested in fitting in REB's though, firespout had just been a side thought.

[ultimoman]

The reason I like Negate over CB is that I feel our curve is too high and its likely better against the Mirror as well as Enchantress (although that's not a huge concern). Plus its nice to have a wishable spell for countering.
I'm not sold on O. Stone, I think its too slow but I could see how it'd be powerful in Landstill. What about Ajani Goldmane again? Alot of people were using him for awhile and he seems to be great for us.

I use 3 E. Plagues and I like them. Yeah it can be a little slow against Merfolk but its saved me many times against them.

[klaus]

Took my beloved Speedstill.dec to the "Sommer-Mercadiade", Hamburg-GER (~130 ppl), finishing 5-2-0, with my losses against 43Lands.dec (twice!).
No new findings, the list still performs quite consistently (Plagues were good), I'm still down for a change though.
...since the red splash got mentioned again: I'm currently testing a tuned Ultimate Walker variant with Standstills in the Visions slot, and I'm liking it so far. Though it definitely qualifies for the UW/x Landstill category, I guess the other Thread is more suitable for further discussion - I guess I'll just invite you guys over.

[Shawn]

What about Ajani Goldmane again? Alot of people were using him for awhile and he seems to be great for us.

Ajani is pretty good depending on what you expect to face. At a local tourney yesterday, (went 4-0 with wishstill) two of the rounds I played against burn and rwg sligh, where he is fantastic. I haven't really decided on whether or not to play those or Blue Blasts, since BEB cost a lot less to cast, and is better against goblins.

I ended up playing a build with 0 (0!) Wraths and Humility, and instead opted for three Nevinyrral's Disks. My other matchups were Ugw Natural Order thresh and BW confidant.

[ultimoman]

Maybe your Merfolk match up is mediocre because you don't run Wastelands in the maindeck. It's the rage against Mutavaults... especially under Standstill.

I use 1 Wasteland, CoW, and Tolaria West. I'm thinking of adding another Wasteland but don't want too many colorless sources.

[Tinefol]

@ Plague: I'm disliking it. Against merfolk, it barely does anything. You need 2 of them to win, so it eats 4 SB slots. Same is true for Goblins. What are the thoughts of 3 Firespouts in those slots? worth losing 'pate? (cause you're dumping B for R)

The same reason I dropped Black, because Plagues stopped working against merfolk (and they started maindecking Annul anyway), new goblins play lords and annoying 5/3 guys and Extirpate is useless, because Relic is just better and nobody plays Ichorid there anyway.

No, Firespout doesn't work against Merfolk. I've already tried that and discarded they idea. Not only it sucks with Curscecatcher online, it also gives them opportunity (fully justifiable) to bring in almost free counters in the form of Hydroblast. Fire//Ice works however, and more Paths along with STP certainly do too. Ajani, if it sticks is a beating

Firespout is good vs Goblins. Though humility is much better.

[mossivo1986]

@Jak and Wasteland

Since Smelski cut a brainstorm everyone did it.

First off: The reason Smelski cut 1 brainstorm and the reason I did were completely seperate reasonings. Though we do talk I do not hang on the (hypothetical) Geoff bandwagon.

My personal reasoning is this:

I've tested high kantrip counts in landstill. 3 and 4 ponders, 4 brainstorm, 2 top and through hours of testing I found that I prefered not playing ponder and instead playing top. Top then was set at 1, followed by 2, and eventually increased to 3 when I wanted to see it virtually every game.

The problem was this. Redundancy in kantrips. The way I want to play landstill is not to kantrip from one mana kantrip to the next in mutiple turns. It wastes mana, and although it can win you the game it can also spell disaster especially when your running lower on mana count after each one. Top in this case does the same filtering job as ponder/brainstorm (basicly) but offers redundancy far greater then either provide. To me Top is better then brainstorm. The only reason brainstorm remains in the deck is because of its filtering and protection against discard, otherwise i'd run 4 top and 8 fetches.

[mossivo1986]

@Wasteland

Only 3 Standstills maybe are a correct Metagame-Choice.

At this point I wouldn't go back to 4 still. 1 jace has been absolutely the card I want for that slot, and often proves amazing.


In your SB i really do not know, whether you need the Plagues...
They are not good vs. Merfolk and only effektive vs. Goblins and Elves.

Actually they're brutal against merfolk, 12 lords or not. If they run 12 lords then they don't run 4 stifle, and if they don't run stifle I rape them with EE all day long. Bottom I'm happy either way. EP is excellent against gobbos as well as ichorid and random elf matchups where you absolutely need to have it. If nothing else EP completely hozes the Tribal matchups long enough for you to get elspeth + disk online, which obviously gives you inevitability.


while Elves should not be a Problem at all

Depends on which elves your refering to, and obviously you can still boot a game or 2. Their spells are cheap enough and they can put enough pressure on an opponent that you can obviously have bad board positions. Also to note: depending on if your playing against elf survival, elf combo, or elf aggro is a huge difference in both playstyle and aggresion.



Blue Blast is great against Goblins too (and against Zoo / Dragon Stompy / Burn / Belcher...).

BEB is aweful against ANT and theres only soo many slots you have in your sb against the metagame to defend. I'm not going to use more then 3 slots in my sideboard dedicating counter magic to.

Overall other then the negate/counterbalance slot my model has been absolutely incredible at winning games. Obviously there are some that I can't pull out because of top failing or making a bad call on an opponents hand, but thats bound to happen every now and then.

[Jak]

@Jak and Wasteland


First off: The reason Smelski cut 1 brainstorm and the reason I did were completely seperate reasonings. Though we do talk I do not hang on the (hypothetical) Geoff bandwagon.

My personal reasoning is this:

I've tested high kantrip counts in landstill. 3 and 4 ponders, 4 brainstorm, 2 top and through hours of testing I found that I prefered not playing ponder and instead playing top. Top then was set at 1, followed by 2, and eventually increased to 3 when I wanted to see it virtually every game.

The problem was this. Redundancy in kantrips. The way I want to play landstill is not to kantrip from one mana kantrip to the next in mutiple turns. It wastes mana, and although it can win you the game it can also spell disaster especially when your running lower on mana count after each one. Top in this case does the same filtering job as ponder/brainstorm (basicly) but offers redundancy far greater then either provide. To me Top is better then brainstorm. The only reason brainstorm remains in the deck is because of its filtering and protection against discard, otherwise i'd run 4 top and 8 fetches.

Okay, I agree with this. I just don't understand how Brainstorm became an automatic 3-of all of the sudden. It still makes bad hands good, digs for needed cards, protects from Thoughtseize, etc.

The addition of Top does change things though.

[ultimoman]

I have to agree with Moss. I usually feel much better having a Top in my hand rather than Brainstorm. With Top out, I often end up just pitching Brainstorm to FoW. I'm using 2 Tops but have thought of going back up to 3.
As for Jace or FoF, both can be rather insane but in today's meta I think Jace may be a little too vulnerable but I'm still undecided there.
I finally brought my list down to 60 again after cutting a Vindicate, unfortunately I only have 1 now but that may be all thats needed.

[konsultant]

I definitely like the Preacher tech Geoff and it seemed to work for you rather well in your tournament experiences.

I got a chance to test preacher myself and I ended up boarding him in a good portion of my matches. I definitely have been impressed with him so far. He's pretty reliable especially when your other removal spells aren't taking care of business.

Also, Congrats on your finishes Geoff!

Yeah the Preacher's just keep on growing on me. They were a theoretical addition done with zero testing before thier debute but they have faired really well in actual events and in testing now that I have had the time to do some. Alot of people watched me on the live feed mull to five on the play after losing game 1 against Merfolk and still pull out a win on a 5 card hand because Preacher took down Merfolk. Been receiving alot of questions about him ever since.

Thanks the current list has been doing extremely well for me.

[Ectoplasm]

I took the preacher (3 of them to be exact) to a 51-man sunday and when he hit the board he was MVP, taking down aggroloam and dragon stompy like nothing. I really like him, and I love how every opponent I windmilled him on the table against frowned, took the card and spent a good 2 minutes reading it.

Too bad I punted that tourney but still.

I usually comment with 'if this was printed today it would be 2 lines of text at most'.

[Mark Sun]

I took the preacher (3 of them to be exact) to a 51-man sunday and when he hit the board he was MVP, taking down aggroloam and dragon stompy like nothing. I really like him, and I love how every opponent I windmilled him on the table against frowned, took the card and spent a good 2 minutes reading it.

Too bad I punted that tourney but still.

I usually comment with 'if this was printed today it would be 2 lines of text at most'.

Konsultant's and your comments on Preacher are enough for me to at least try them out. I have 3 on the way, but no idea what to cut in the SB for them.

I don't mind my current list but I would like to try out a second Humility and/or Moat as an experiment. Throwing Preachers on the list too I suppose. :rolleyes:

[Waikiki]

@konsultant. What is the current SB your using since you made room for 3 preachers ?

[Tea]

Probably you prefer top over BS, because your deck lacks redundancy. BS is an instant and it’s cheaper than top. However you only get one shot with BS; but if you have more redundancy, this would be enough.

[undone]

4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
1 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force of Will
1 Path to Exile
4 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Wrath of God
1 Humility
3 Standstill
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Engineered Explosives
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
2 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Academy Ruins
1 Dust Bowl
4 Flooded Strand
3 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Plains
2 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
4 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Wasteland
3 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

SB
4 Meddling Mage
3 Extirpate
3 Engineered Plague
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Ajani Goldmane

Found this list on deckcheck.net, I like it alot although its 61 cards and you dont have 2 wastes (2 wastes +1 dustbowl is equal to 4/4 factory/waste because they have to waste factory and dustbowls leaving you with one extra factory)I cant cut a colored source so whats the next worst card? is it the 3rd elspeth? I have been very happy with her but she may be the worst card in the deck.

[Ectoplasm]

Konsultant's and your comments on Preacher are enough for me to at least try them out. I have 3 on the way, but no idea what to cut in the SB for them.

I don't mind my current list but I would like to try out a second Humility and/or Moat as an experiment. Throwing Preachers on the list too I suppose. :rolleyes:

Since I don't run wishes those preachers are in my 'random creaturehate' slot which previously contained 3x PtE.

I like them because against swarm-aggro like merfolk and goblin you can just nab whatever when your opponent goes to combat, and he either doesn't attack at all or loses some creatures in the blocking-step, just keep those LoA's off the board and against something that runs huge dudes you can usually just pick and choose, and I don't see a V. Shackles grabbing a terravore (or a fat goyf for that matter) since I only run 7 islands, like most people do.

An added bonus is the fact that most people board out their spotremoval anyway and add krosan grip with the obvious exception being zoo/sligh where he often dies, but then at least he bought you a turn or more and functioned as a lightning rod, slowing the game down for you, even though I wouldn't call him optimal vs zoo I still think he has his uses there as well.

[NQN]

Allright, played a 12x man tournament saturday and failed horrible.
During the past tournaments I figured that goblins and merrows are on the raise while countertopgoyf isn´t played that much. I had to play against 1-2 tribal decks and 1-2 goyflslighs EVERY tournament I played in since ~bunch of months. What I rarely have to face is cbtop (maybe 1/20 opponents) and what I NEVER have to face are aggro Loam and ichorid.
With that knowledge my list for saturday looked like this:
// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [A] Underground Sea
1 [U] Scrubland
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
4 [B] Tundra
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
3 [A] Island (2)
3 [5E] Plains (1)
1 [MM] Dust Bowl

// Creatures
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
3 [OD] Standstill
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [AT] Swords to Plowshares
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [B] Counterspell
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
2 [TE] Humility
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
2 [A] Wrath of God
3 [5E] Brainstorm
1 [FNM] Fact or Fiction

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 4 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 1 [TSP] Return to Dust
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [IA] Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 4 [FNM] Engineered Plague
SB: 2 [M10] Ajani Goldmane

I wanted to beat goblins,merrows and goyflsligh more than anything else.
Long story short, these where my matches:
R1: AngelStompy 2-0 Easy.
R2: Aggro Loam 1-2 g1+3 he gets loam pretty fast and I can do nothin.
R3: Burn 2-1 CoP:Red wins both games.
R4: Dredge 0-2 -> Obv. Would´ve had a chance without horrible screw g2.
R5: Ugr Tempo 2-0 I get lucky in g1, just to defeat him even harder with a normal draw g2. One of the easiest matchups imho!
R6: Aggro Loam 0-2 Loam/Waste active in turn 2. Two times :(
Drop!

Well, I played Relics for long now and never had to use them. Tried to cut
->Epic Fail.

I´m going to stop playing landstill after 1 1/2 years now and start testing Next level Storm :)

[mossivo1986]

Tea
Probably you prefer top over BS, because your deck lacks redundancy. BS is an instant and it’s cheaper than top. However you only get one shot with BS; but if you have more redundancy, this would be enough.`

Like I said before I would argue that Top makes land still consistently more redundant then versions without top. It does slow you down by a turn, 1/2 a turn in the early stages of the game, but as the game proceeds top becomes better and eventually outshines other decks alone without any problems.

This is the primary reason to run 3x top. You want it consistently. To the point that it doesn't matter if you see another in the same game because your card quality has been good enough by this point that you can continue to filter through (Fetches, shuffle effects etc.)

The other thing is if your running redundant land still without a tool-box approach then of course your not going to have the same redundancy that a Geoff list would have. He's a very different kind of player then I am. I prefer options and the greatest diversity in my matches; where as Geoff prefers strict redundancy. It is therefore concluded that while I may not always draw the correct answer (where Geoff Might) I will have greater reach in different matches (Which is what I like).


To note: Top also defines my playstyle by allowing me to consistently see those toolbox cards more often (Dust Bowl, Academy Ruins, Jace, Humility, Disk, Etc.) It also allows me to not have to play a 3rd wish, (Something I really like.)

NQN

I´m going to stop playing landstill after 1 1/2 years now and start testing Next level Storm :)

Stop trying to be cute with your sideboard strategy and just play to win games. Ajani is old tech and not needed. Don't run 4 EP.

I do understand why your doing what you did with your deck, but if you just play a generalized board, i'm sure you wouldn't be having these problems.

Don't quit playing land still.

[NQN]

I play "generalized" sideboards for a long period now and I always played with 7-8 card sideboards because I always boarded the same cards...
I think I was a bit too radical this time, but even without Ajani(which I don´t consider old tech) I would´ve played that much tribal hate.
Sidenote: Had to face 3 goblins, 4 Goyflsighs and 3 merrows in 16 rounds of legacy with zero loam, zero dredge and zero CB in the bygone tourneys :(
Maybe this was just bad luck, maybe I´ve just gotten worse with landstill...dunno...What would a generalized SB look like?
4 Wishtargets
3 PtE
2 Plagues
3 Relics
3 Negates
?
I played that and never boarded Negate nor Relic at the PLGSTW(7 rounds,5-2).
I just feel that landstill has to fight at 15 different frontlines at the same time to be strong enough in my current metagame :( I really don´t want to give it up since it´s my pet deck but I feel like it can´t be helped...
In the past I always top8ed with it, no matter where I played. But atm I only get results like 5-2, 3-3,3-3 etc...its just meh...

`nuff cried,
gn8

[mossivo1986]

@ Citrus and Wasteland:

How do you sideboard against match-ups where you sideboard in counterbalance?

[Wasteland]

Well, Counterbalance is most useful against different Decks:
- Combo: Obviously -Wraths / -Humility etc. ...
- Burn: The same, but let in Swords cause of Lifegain and random hellsparl elementals (+ 2 blue blast the MU becomes excellent for Landstill)
- Loam: I will not board in Counterbalance due to the very few cc2 spells in the deck (3 relics and 2 blue blasts are enough to win against loam, which is mostly quite slow)
- Mirror: -Wraths / -Humility
- Dreadstill: probably the same
- white grow: still not clear whether i need c-balance, probably not, the MU is already suberb :cool:
Greetz, Marius

[dal9ll]

So right now Im at a loss to decide what direction to take my Landstill deck in. There’s the classic UW design, the UWb build, and the ever-popular Wishstill build, plus others. My list right now is just the classic UW build (I’ll probably splash black for Extirpate, E. Plague and maybe even Sen Triplets when I can afford the right duals for it). Ive also got the cards to make it a Wishstill deck but I don’t know if Im convinced that one approach to the Landstill build is strictly better than another. They all seem viable, no? This is what Ive got as of now:

4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare

4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
2 Fact or Fiction

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Wrath of God
2 Nevinyrrl’s Disk/Engineered Explosives
1 Humility
1 Preacher

2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Decree of Justice
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

3 Wastleand
4 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra’s Factory
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Island
4 Plains (working on getting some Tundras btw)

SB:
2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress (merfolk hate)
3 Relic of Progenitus (GY hate)
3 Negate (combo/control hate)
1 Pulse of the Fields (aggro/burn hate)
2 Path to Exile (more creature hate)
1 Return to Dust (art./enchant. hate)
3 Pithing Needle (should need no explanation)

There’s also a few things Im wondering about.

--Why are so many Landstill decks Im seeing around here only running 3 Standstill? I thought that was the decks token card… Is it just because of the prevalence of Merfolk decks?
-- The Crucible/Wasteland lock was one thing that made me fall in love with Landstill. However, Im seeing that pretty much everyone around here runs only 1 Crucible or none at all. Are our draw spells/Wishes w/ E. Tutor suppose to make Crucible appear more frequently? I run 2 because I absolutely want to see one every game.
--Why do so many around here hate on Faerie Conclave? Is it just because of the CIPT effect?
--Engineered Explosives seems a lot less powerful in the 2-color UW build. Am I wrong about this?

Thanks everyone!

[Elf_Ascetic]

--Why are so many Landstill decks Im seeing around here only running 3 Standstill? I thought that was the decks token card… Is it just because of the prevalence of Merfolk decks?
Among other, yes. Most Landstill list are weaker under standstill then the averge merfolklist. That is, if they don't resolve Vial. If they do, you're fucked anyway. Landstill doesn't want 4 dead cards against the most (?) popular deck. Same is true for Goblins. Top and Jace forfill the same role as standstill, but do a better job in those two matchups.


-- The Crucible/Wasteland lock was one thing that made me fall in love with Landstill. However, Im seeing that pretty much everyone around here runs only 1 Crucible or none at all. Are our draw spells/Wishes w/ E. Tutor suppose to make Crucible appear more frequently? I run 2 because I absolutely want to see one every game.
Yeah, we would want more crucible. However, there are 59 or 60 better cards. We get away with running only one because of Wish for Tutor. Theoreticaly, if needed, we're running 3.



--Why do so many around here hate on Faerie Conclave? Is it just because of the CIPT effect?


It's the CIPT effect, the nonbasicicness and the Tap for Blue only. More then four manlands aren't needed, and 4 Factory > Conclave.



--Engineered Explosives seems a lot less powerful in the 2-color UW build. Am I wrong about this?

Yes, you are. It's only slightly less powerful. The only thing you can't hit what a 3-colored list can hit is Hypnotic Specter, Merrow Reererereeree, Crucible and some other tribal creatures like Warchief and Imperious Perfect. However, 90%, if not more, EE is going to be set at 0, 1 or 2. EE is very, very strong, even in a UW list.

[Citrus-God]

@ Citrus and Wasteland:

How do you sideboard against match-ups where you sideboard in counterbalance?

I board them in against every deck except Not Quite Grow. That means I board them in against Dreadstill as well. Basically, they come in against every match up, but different cards get boarded out for them.

Against Aggro Loam, I board out the Wrath of Gods and Wishes. Against combo and the control mirror, Humilities and WoGs come out. Against Merfolk and Zoo, the Wishes and 2-4 FoWs come out for Pulse and Counterbalances and additional copies of Path to Exile.

[ultimoman]

For those using Counterbalance in the side, are you using 2 or 3 Tops? Most Landstill builds that use Top, use 2 of them, but is that enough for Counterbalance?

[konsultant]

@konsultant. What is the current SB your using since you made room for 3 preachers ?

It's in the top 8 thread from an event on 8/22. Sorry I don't know how to put links to different pages.

[J.V.]

Geoff's Board:
1 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Spell Snare
2 Preacher
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Path to Exile
3 Negate

[Citrus-God]

For those using Counterbalance in the side, are you using 2 or 3 Tops? Most Landstill builds that use Top, use 2 of them, but is that enough for Counterbalance?

When I tested a build with Tops, I have 3 in the maindeck and 4 Counterbalances in the sideboard. I think for the maindeck, I might throw in the 4th copy of Top. Just such a savage card. But lately, I've been playing Negate, it's really the way to go if you want to pack combo hate in the sideboard. It's a more consistent card to have compared to that of Counterbalance because it always counters something. With Counterbalance at times, your opponent probably boarded in ways to fight Counterbalance like how ANT at times boards in 4 REBs and 1-3 Krosan Grips. For example, against TES, on your 2nd Turn, if you attempt to drop a Counterbalance and it gets REB'd, you're in a bit of a pickle on your opponent gets his untap step. Whereas of you had Negate and your opponent attempts to combo off on his main phase, you probably slow your opponent down if he spends that one Red mana just to cast his REB to counter your negate. Keep in mind, this is his Turn 3, and he just wasted a mana on a 2c spell. Might not seem a lot, but on Turn 3, it's still pretty hard for a combo player to function well in that position.

[jimirynk]

How do you guys deal with the 1-2 knock out which is shusher into price in the zoo/goyf sly MU?
Is pulse your only plan of attack in this MU?
I don't run wish or pulse and I'm doing fine vs. zoo but shusher/price usually sings gg.

[Hanni]

U/W Manabase and StP/BEB, with my version.

[FoolofaTook]

Run enough basics so that you're not sitting there with 10 pts of damage staring at you when they go off?

Seriously, if I'm playing Zoo or Goyf Sligh or anything else that looks likely to be packing PoP I'm very careful how I deploy land as I'm getting setup. It's really not that hard to land an island and a couple of plains if that's what you think you need to do early on to avoid problems. I'll also keep a wasteland on the board if I'm sitting there with 2 or 3 duals just to make sure I can limit the damage if they go off all of a sudden.

Landstill should be able to run off of 5 mana without missing a beat. You can make three of those basics when you have to and suddenly you're not looking at an insta-loss when an uncounterable PoP comes through, even if they also have Fireblast backing it up and can make that good too.

[jimirynk]

I run 2 islands 2 plains and a swamp.
I am very away fetching for basics is the right play because I'm not fucking retarded.
But trying to survive and stabilize at as high as possible usually ends with 3 or 4 non-basics in play in the first 6-8 turn.
Idk if I really like CoP as a sb card because I usually like to play the offense as fast as possible to try to keep them off of shusher/PoP.
My board now is:
2BeB
3Negate
2PTE
2S.S
1Crypt
2E.P
3 flex spot

I want to test preacher or moat as a 2 of in the board vs. mefolk I'm leaning towards preacher due to the increase in Ug merfolk at resent torns.

[Hanni]

I just felt like posting this cause I had no else to talk to. I just played two matches on MWS. Yeah, I know, MWS... but hear me out. My first matchup was against Burn w/ MD Marauders and Lavamancers, SB Shusher. My second matchup was against RGb Aggro Loam. I 2-0'd Burn, 2-1'd Aggro Loam. 2 horrible matchups, won both of them. Made me feel like a pimp.

I must admit, both matchups were won with CounterTop.

Against Burn game 1, I landed Counterbalance but no Top, only countered 2 spells with it via Brainstorm and 1 blind reveal, but he was mana flooded and I raced him with Factory + Elspeth beats. Standstills are so amazing vs Burn, it kept chaining me into lands, Counterspells, and FoW's. Game 2, I early BEB'd his Shusher and proceeded to CounterTop lock him for an easy win.

Against Aggro Loam game 1, he didn't get his Loam engine online and I didn't get CounterTop online. He drops Chalice@1 and proceeds to drop a Goyf a turn for 2 turns. I O Ring the Chalice, StP a Goyf, I drop Top, he E Witness's Chalice and redrops it. I attempt to stabalize, finally do with Factory + Elspeth (making 1 token a turn). Eventually I drop a Standstill, he breaks it, I WoG, proceed to win. Game 2 was a horrible beating. I mulligan to 5, I'm stuck on a low land count, he Chalices@1, and beats me out quickly with Loam + Seismic Assault. Game 3, I drop a turn 1 Top to his turn 1 Chalice. I'm a little land light and he Wastes my Tundra, but Top does the dirty and digs me up some lands, and I O Ring the Chalice. StP meets his Goyf, and he doesn't draw another creature for awhile, while he does his Loam engine. I assemble CounterTop, keep a 2cc spell on top at all times, drop Elspeth, and slowly lock him out of the game and win via Elspeth's dirtyness.

Anyway, long story short, I decided to post that cause it made me feel awesome to go 2-0 against two of the worst matchups possible. I could see that happening in a tournament and then going on to dominate the rest of my matchups off of pure confidence.

Anyway, here's my list:

U/W KaezurStill (Counterbalance Landstill)

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [U] Tundra
4 [7E] Island (3)
3 [P3] Plains (2)
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)

// Spells
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [ST] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
3 [REW] Wrath of God
2 [ALA] Oblivion Ring

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [REW] Wrath of God
SB: 2 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
SB: 4 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus

The only mainstays of my SB are the BEB's, Mages, and O Rings. Other than that, the WoG and Relics can be whatever, I haven't done enough testing to figure that out.

Board plan for Burn was:
-3 WoG
-2 DoJ
-2 O Ring
-1 StP
+4 BEB
+4 Mage

Board plan for Aggro Loam was:
-2 DoJ
+2 O Ring

Anyway, most of my list is standardized minus the Counterbalances, which are the only real eyesore/controversy, which I tried to discuss way back when before my internet got shut off. Before tackling that issue, there are a few things I'd like to address.

The U/W Manabase is awesome. I've toyed around with splashes many times in the past, but staying strictly U/W solves so many issues with this deck. All sorts of bad matchups (like Aggro Loam) are improved by it, and I feel comfortable with only 23 lands with it (that, and the 4 Brainstorm/4 Top). I feel like all the spells I need are neatly contained in U/W, and while I loved Vindicate in UWb for a while, I feel like O Rings easily replace them given the smoother manabase and ease of casting. I know that UWb CunningStill gets big weapons with Black, but I feel that Top is the direct replacement for Cunning Wish. Which leads me to my next point.

I don't see why every list isn't running 4 Tops. Top is, hands down, the best card in the deck. There is only 1 card I want to see in every opening hand and have in play ASAP every single game. That is Top. Top wins games; the deck's already consistent shell makes Top's increased consistency turn the deck into a repetitive machine. I see the exact same cards I want to see every single game when I want to see them, and that's why I win. Multiple Top's shuffle themselves away, so it's not like it's even dead in multiples. Seriously, every list needs 4.

It also doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever to go below 4 Brainstorm, but I'm not gonna argue that animal.

Now, onto Counterbalance. Everyone says, "you don't have the curve to use Counterbalance, therefore it sucks in Landstill." Wrong. 12 2cc and 12 1cc spells is more than enough for its application in the deck. It's not used here the same way it is in Threshold. Threshold depends on its lock in games where it needs to go control and survive the late game. In here, it's not a crutch (except against a few certain matchups, like Burn and Aggro Loam). All it does is synergize with the fact I'm already running 4 Brainstorm/4 Top and give me additional control. I'm not worried about what blind CB can do for me. Countering even 1 spell with it is card parity, countering 2 is +1 CA. That's what this deck is about is CA, and given that this is a lategame deck, I almost always assembles CT at some point. I do mean that literally. Not only does it generate CA, it adds another level of control to the deck that a deck like Landstill absolutely loves: why the hell would the deck not run it? Don't give me the curve crap; the point isn't blind CB to save lives. With the current spell config, it is very simple to get 1cc and 2cc spells on top via Top and Brainstorm. It improves problematic matchups drastically, improves already good matchups, and only slightly weakens a very few matchups. I don't think I can explain any better why its so good... besides saying to simply playtest it before bashing it. I garuntee you'll see the same results I've been seeing.

Anyways, /rant.

[Misplayer]

@Hanni:

How is your Merfolk matchup? A turn 1 Vial looks almost impossible to overcome with your list. Also, I imagine that comfortably laying down a Standstill in that matchup is difficult to do as they have 4 Mutavault + 4 Wasteland to your 4 Factory + 2 DoJ.

Otherwise I'm digging the CB/Top Landstill.

[VonDoom]

Little OT

WHY ?!
WHY ?!

Why no more [DTB], but just [DTW] ???

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Hanni]

Merfolk is one of the few matchups that is not greatly improved by Counterbalance. It can still hit some of their stuff, but for the most part, I'd rather be packing more removal spells.

The matchup itself isn't that bad. If they land Vial it can get bad, though O Ring helps there a bit. Otherwise, their Wastes and Mutavaults against my Factories and Decrees is fairly similar, with them having the slight edge. However, they are a fairly slow aggro deck and I pack plenty of countermagic and removal for them. As long as you play around Daze and Cursecatcher effectively, it's not so bad. Preboard, the matchup could be a little rough if they get a solid draw. Postboard, I'd side out Standstills and 2 Counterbalances for the 2 O Rings, 1 WoG, and 3 Meddling Mage (for now). If the matchup is very popular and I struggle with it, I'd just cut some amount of Relics (as long as Ichorid isn't also popular) and add some Path to Exile or maybe even the new WoG effect (I don't remember what it's called).

I haven't had enough testing against Merfolk yet, though, to be honest.

Still though, for everything else that Counterbalance does improve, I don't mind it being hit or miss with a few matchups. And honestly, in alot of the matchups that CT doesn't improve, the UW manabase tends to improve (like vs Dragon Stompy, for example).

[NQN]

Why do all of you want to play Preacher all of a sudden? What if the opponents just drops a lord of atlantis or some irrelivent cursescratcher that he can "give" you without a problem? I´m sure that he isnt that bad but he´s only good against ONE deck while beeing horrible against the rest of the meta.
I just don´t understand it...

DTW instead of DTB: Told ya, LS has to strech too much nowadays to cover all matchups..

I tried to play Walkerstill yesterday and it was quite funny but that pile can NEVER be better than uwb ls since it just lacks removal for the bigger guys.
I even lost one game(not match) against urb extended madness cause he had 3 guys with power 3+ and 3 different cc :S

[Citrus-God]

Why do all of you want to play Preacher all of a sudden? What if the opponents just drops a lord of atlantis or some irrelivent cursescratcher that he can "give" you without a problem? I´m sure that he isnt that bad but he´s only good against ONE deck while beeing horrible against the rest of the meta.
I just don´t understand it...

Preacher is good against Aggro Loam as well... but other than those two decks, I really have no idea what else Preacher can be good against.

[Wasteland]

For the Mirror or against Dreadstill perhaps

[jimirynk]

Preacher can come in vs. goyf.dec also.
How many time has countertop ever agg'd you out with more than 2 creatures?
Game 2/3 nassif.dec usually sides out stp and brassman doesn't side in removal + they side out sower(maybe, I have kept it in before to flip for four)
Unless they side in firespout fearing a wrongly played decree.

[NQN]

In the mirror he´s no more than a 1/1 unless you´re playing against a retard.
Againts Dreadstill he´s also pretty bad since he will never steal a nought and most likely not eve a factory...And @jimirynk: Are you serious? You really want to board a 1/1 for 3 that dies to mostly every spell the deck plays and leaves you completly open for anything on turn 3(if played later, there should be no creatures anymore or you should already be dead).
Actually, I won against Loam yesterday at a small tourney with +3 relic +3 vendilion Clique<- they seem to be nutz if they come from the SB.
I believe they are the anti-control SB card I was looking for, since I´ve never liked them MD.

[ultimoman]

I'm still not sold on CB, I may need to make room for a 3rd top by taking out FoF but I'd hate to lower my blue count to 17. I could take out the lone Vindicate, but it just has so many uses.

On another note...

Mindbreak Trap
2UU
Instant - Trap

If an opponent casts 3 or more spells this turn, you may pay 0 rather than pay Mindbreak Trap's mana cost.
Exile any number of target spells.

Another answer for storm? They can still get around it but this could win a few matches against them, plus it can get rid of Volcanic Fallout if needed.

[GGoober]

Mindbreak Trap is good for a wish target against ANT/TES, but in all honesty and reminding myself not to hype up new "powerful" cards, you have to understand that Landstill's only reason why its matches against ANT/TES aren't super favorable is because of Chants. Countertop trumps ANT/TES since chant does nothing against the engine. If Chant resolves against us, FOW, Mindbreak Trap becomes useless.

So in asking yourself again whether Mindbreak Trap improves the ANT matches? I'd say yes if they don't run Chants or if you can counter multiple Chant/Silences, and no if they run Chant since it is useless and takes a slot.

After much thinking, Countertop in Landstill might be feasibly viable. It's a slower strategy and the lack of removal to fit the engine in is a drawback. The main reason why Countertop is bad in Landstill is the lack of 2cc spells to flip. You can potentially play 3 CB and 4 Spell Snare with 4 FOW and 3 Top. That is as far as I would go to squeeze it in. What would you cut? Countertop Landstill would be more focused on 3cc/1cc spells, and using Snares and EE to stop the 2cc spells from resolving. That would be my direction to Countertop Landstill

3-4 Counterbalance
3 Top
4 Spell Snare (this is absolutely needed to make up for the lack of 2cc).

[rsaunder]

I've sorta been working in the same direction with SB CB. It's the only reliable way I've found to beat up on the chant-heavy storm lists. Almost makes it a matchup I want to see, at least post board.

4 STP
3 EE
2 WOG
1 Humility (love this removal package)

3 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell
4 FOW (love this counter package too)

3 Brainstorm
3 SDT (upped to 3 for CB, would rather have #3 be a jace or FoF or something but it's necessary)
3 Standstill

2 DoJ
2 Elsbitch
2 Wish
1 Crucible of Worlds

4 Strand
2 Delta
4 tundra
1 sea
1 scrub
3 island
2 plains
2 waste
3 factory
1 tolaria west
1 academy ruins

SB:
3 CB
3 E. Plague
2 Relic
2 P2E
1 Negate (<= still wanted the hard counter off wish)
1 E. Tutor
1 FoF
1 Extirpate
1 Pulse of the Fields

The way I've been boarding gives me the 3 tops, 3 CB, 10 counterspell package with the 1/2 CMC looking like

1cc: 12
2cc: 10

Which is generally good enough alongside the brainstorms and super-heavy counter suite to handle combo. The only problem I have with the list is a lack of a heavy duty draw engine MB (jace or FoF) but that really hasn't seemed to affect actual matchup percentages at all against what I've tested against, mostly thresh, zoo, thrash, and combo. Given the lack, wish=>FoF becomes a necessary possibility and sees some play.

CB with the curve is also nice against zoo, makes the burn reach a lot less scary even without pulse.

@MB Crucible: Have you guys tried it recently? I've waste-locked thrash and zoo out of so many games just randomly pulling it and recurring ruins against thrash. I'm 100% happy thus far.

[jimirynk]

@jimirynk: Are you serious? You really want to board a 1/1 for 3 that dies to mostly every spell the deck plays and leaves you completly open for anything on turn 3(if played later, there should be no creatures anymore or you should already be dead).

[Snip. Full warning for flaming. - Bardo]

Game 2/3 nassif.dec usually sides out stp and brassman doesn't side in removal + they side out sower(maybe, I have kept it in before to flip for four)
Unless they side in firespout fearing a wrongly played decree.

Counter top won't agg out on you.

They won't play a goyf untill they answer it I.E needle or E.E.
2 goyfs dont help..

Catch my drift?

[Hanni]

After much thinking, Countertop in Landstill might be feasibly viable. It's a slower strategy and the lack of removal to fit the engine in is a drawback. The main reason why Countertop is bad in Landstill is the lack of 2cc spells to flip. You can potentially play 3 CB and 4 Spell Snare with 4 FOW and 3 Top. That is as far as I would go to squeeze it in. What would you cut? Countertop Landstill would be more focused on 3cc/1cc spells, and using Snares and EE to stop the 2cc spells from resolving. That would be my direction to Countertop Landstill

Feasbily vialble... I don't get why it's not standardized yet. I've had my deck designed for 4 months and just finally got the internet and still no one uses Counterbalance in Landstill.

12 2cc spells is a lack thereof? You don't run CB to blind flip people. You run a ton of other powerhouse stuff that you don't need that. Brainstorm becomes a Counterspell, and Top can lock out 2cc spells like Loam.

I see what the meta looks like, but you don't run Spell Snare alongside CB. You run either or; do you want the tempo of SN, or the power of CB? Choose one, not both.

I still feel like O Ring (or Vindicate if you run Black) is > EE. Just my opinion.

@ Rsaunder

You and me are pretty cool, we've had some long dicsussions before about decks. Let us be honest with eachother: your decklist is too spread out. You need to focus on something. So many non-4 of's. Lots of 2's and 3's, quite a bit of 1's. I've been an avid NON-Cunning Wish correspondant for a long time, and many will hate on me with this. Top is the direct replacement for card quality, and completely dominates it in all aspects, IMO. Top needs to be a 4-of in every Landstill list. After the tighten, after looking at good and bad matchups, after looking at possibilities... Counterbalance should be an obvious shoe-in.

I'm probably short-sighted and single-track-minded, but I've been raping everyone continuously with my list. I just wish at least a handful of people would try it and let me know the results.

Oh, and I just wanna toss the e-peen around real quick. Counterbalance was never dismissed from ITF, while ITF was considered a good deck (and I feel that it is). Has anyone ever seen their Counterbalance curve? It's similar or worse to 12/12 1cc/2cc. Wtf? I call shenanigans.

[rsaunder]

@ Rsaunder: [Well Though Out Stuff]I've considered vindicate over C. Wish as a catch all, but I've just been saved too many times by wish=>pulse or wish =>x to cut it at this point. I used to think of it as a crutch in certain matchups but with more and more thought on the subject I became more and more sure that it was a correct call that won games that I should not have won otherwise. It's not so much a crutch as a built-in silver bullet and utility slot that can win games or matches by it's self. I'm not opposed to trying out builds without it, but wish has proven it's self time and time again.

As for top, I agree it's excellent. I disagree though, that it's a 4-of. It's terrible in multiples game one (and arguably dead games 2/3 when CB is sided in) and I was reluctant to include copy#3 even, because 2 worked so well when counterbalance wasn't included. At this point though, I also disagree that my list is too spread out. It follows the same theory as Nassif's SB from the GP (highlander with redundant effects); 10 removal spells (counting humility), 10 counterspells, 9 draw/card quality, 25 mana, 4 kill conditions, and 2 catch-all answers. I appreciate how clean your list is, but I think the balance in my list at the moment is right. All of the effects are either redundant or complementary and all of the 1-ofs are tutorable through one method or another.

I hope none of this makes me less cool in your book, I'm kinda under the influence and probably shouldn't be posting in the DTB forum atm :eek:

[Hanni]

@ Rsaunder

Catch all is catch all. What all does it do for you? Pulse of the Fields is negated by CounterTop, which answers all that. The best reponse I see is CWish into Extirpate, since I clearly don't have that answer. Dredge is a bad mathcup for me MD. Is that common?

I completely agree with you on redunancy. It doesn't matter what you do. X of certain spell equals equivilants. It's the overall numbers that really count. However, I'm strongly opinionated that 4 Top is the way to go. After lots of playtesting and consideration, that's how I feel. In multiples, it shuffles itself away. I'll repeat what I said earlier: Top is, hands down, the best card in the deck. There is only 1 card I want to see in every opening hand and have in play ASAP every single game. That is Top. Top wins games; the deck's already consistent shell makes Top's increased consistency turn the deck into a repetitive machine. I see the exact same cards I want to see every single game when I want to see them, and that's why I win.

There's no less coolnesss, don't feel that way. I haven't been able to post in months. Just consider what I've said and don't dismiss it right away, particularly about Top and either MD or SB Counterbalance. I promise I would never steer anyone wrong. Not like I'm holding out secret tech; I don't get to play in big events. Top is the best card in the deck, hands down. No reason to not run Counterbalance if that's the case, which actually does improve sooooooo many matchups.

[mossivo1986]

Goodstuff land still guys.

Also

Hypothesis:
Counterbalance> Mindbreak Trap.

[rsaunder]

Fact:
In Landstill Counterbalance> Mindbreak Trap.
FYP. I think CB's the way that the deck HAS to go to compete now, since to combat Mindbreak combo's going to be packing even more chant effects to combat the aggro decks packing mindbreak. It's really unsafe for combo to go off against anything post-board now without a duress or chant effect first.


@Hanni: Of course, I consider every piece of advice I receive. I think though, where our builds differ is that you have CB main. Wish is a great game 1 card that fixes problem matchups while allowing greater utility in favorable ones. If I ran CB MB I'd consider going wish-less, but as it is right now I'm not ready to make that step.

[Hanni]

@Hanni: Of course, I consider every piece of advice I receive. I think though, where our builds differ is that you have CB main. Wish is a great game 1 card that fixes problem matchups while allowing greater utility in favorable ones. If I ran CB MB I'd consider going wish-less, but as it is right now I'm not ready to make that step.

The way I see it, Top does the same thing. Both CW and Top create card quality. Those are the purposes of them. CW gives versatility with the wishboard, Top does it with the MD. Obviously, CW is more pinpoint, but Top's effect is everlasting. CW can grab a few things not found in the MD: Extirpate being the biggest effect. Other than that, every answer is found in the MD. I find Top to be the better card, by far, and I think that both Top and CW compete for the same spot. Since I find Top to be lightyears better, I run 4 Top 0 CW. Just the way I feel, I guess. CB MD has nothing to do with it, though I think CB MD is the way to go due to the 4 Top's that I do run.

[NQN]

I tested CB main/sb and I was never really satisfied. Since we really lack pressure without Elspeth it´s not that hard for the opponent to resolve some stuff if we don´t have cc2-3 permanently on top. And it makes you even more vulnerable to grip postboard where I tend to take humilitys out.

[Misplayer]

@NQN:

I think you're missing the boat. As others have said, Counterbalance is not meant to be a hard-lock in Landstill like it is in "Thresh". Even if it's a one-sided Chalice of the Void for 1, it still improves many of your poor matchups. Landstill has the tools to answer whatever they're playing at CMC 2/3 even if you can't 'balance it.

[FoolofaTook]

How is Landstill with CounterTop not just going to turn into a slower and less nimble version of Dreadstill? You're using anywhere from 6 to 8 new permanents in the deck and something has to come out. That something is likely to be the majority of the removal that Landstill features. In turn that's going to make Landstill into a deck that doesn't do anything particularly impactful early on (except drop SDT or Counterbalance) and that also has many fewer ways to react to the opponent after the fact.

I'm looking at the discussion, and while I respect the people making the arguments and the arguments they are making, what it's boiling down to for me is the danger of cool things. In this case the addition of SDT as a stand-alone is now pushing people to morph the deck by adding Counterbalance also. I don't think the deck is getting better in the process, in fact I think it is losing some of the qualities that make it so good right now.

Here's the problem in a nutshell:

What Landstill does so well is to just drop land and prevent/react to the opponent's plays until it has reached critical mass on turn 4 to 7. At that point it grabs the opponent's plan, does one more flip to put it out of commission and then casts a 4cc spell and starts to win.

Counterbalance is going to come in for something else that makes the plan above work. It's going to lower removal to the point that things can begin to reliably slip through in the critical early midgame, and threats that were cast in the very early game will remain on the board when they should not.

Basically, the deck is going to look like a slower version of Dreadstill with no insta-win to cover up the fact that an opponent got a couple of significant assets landed early and they're sticking around.

This is just my opinion, but I think if the addition of SDT inevitably results in the inclusion of Counterbalance due to synergy then SDT is a bad idea. It may help the deck but CounterTop won't in the long run.

If you just want to put Counterbalance in the sideboard for the matches where it is clearly better then I think you need to ask yourself if the number of matches you have against those decks warrants taking up a fifth or more of the sideboard. Landstill has very good uses for the sideboard, more so than most other decks.

[ultimoman]

Chalice of the Void is also an option I would guess. Granted it can slow us down, it would still be better for us against the matches we'd board it in against. Storm and burn; and possibly Zoo but probably not since we'd need Swords. It works almost the same as Counterbalance but sacrifices versatility for a sure thing. Only problem is its not amazing against the mirror and some other matches.

[Ectoplasm]

I don't really like adding the countertop engine since it seems to detract from the redundancy that makes landstill good :)

[Hanni]

@ FoolofaTook

I posted my list a page or so back, if you want to look at that as a reference. What is the deck dropping significant amounts of to add Counterbalance? I run 9 removal spells in total, with 3 additional removal spells in my sideboard. Looking at most Landstill lists, that's very similar to what everyone else is running, so I fail to see your point. Essentially, what I'm dropping for Counterbalances are what most seem to be running as Spell Snares. There is no major loss of early game via retooling the deck to fit it; you lose a minor amount of early game without Spell Snare and replace it with a much more powerful effect in Counterbalance, which is good not only in the early game, but throughout the games entirety. Rather than act as a tempo tool, it acts as a card advantage engine.

I also don't understand how it slows the deck down. I clearly see the speed difference between Spell Snare and Counterbalance, sure, but it's not so major of a difference that the deck now becomes slow. It's a one-time 2 mana investment; after that, you're using Top (or Brainstorm) like you normally would. With 9 removal effects and FoW, anything that lands before CounterTop is in effect is answerable. I fail to see how a 4 card change to the maindeck makes such a drastic change for the rest of the Landstill shell, as far as redundancy and consistency goes. If anything, Top itself as a 4-of greatly improves that. Even Counterbalance adds to the redundancy by being a reusable Counterspell, which the last time I checked, is an important effect to the Landstill shell.

The deck doesn't need Dreadnought to cover it's ass for an insta-win. The deck has 9 removal spells. The point of Dreadstill is that removal is replaced with an I-win combo. I haven't replaced any removal. Once I clear the board, I either drop CounterTop or Elspeth and win the game.

What needs to be looked at moreso than these arguments are what actual matchups improve and which ones don't. Two of our worst matchups, Burn and Aggro Loam, are both won off the back of Counterbalance. It improves the Thresh/CounterTop match some, it improves the Zoo matchup some, it basically improves every matchup to some degree. The few matchups where it is not fantastic would be decks like Goblins, Merfolk, and Dragon Stompy, where it's still mildly useful... and funny enough, Spell Snare runs into the same issues against those matchups.

For reference, I'll repost my list. Use this to highlight what I'm sorely lacking from every other Landstill list by adding Counterbalance.

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [U] Tundra
4 [7E] Island (3)
3 [P3] Plains (2)
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)

// Spells
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [ST] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
3 [REW] Wrath of God
2 [ALA] Oblivion Ring

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [REW] Wrath of God
SB: 2 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
SB: 4 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus

Also, rather than discussing why it would or would not work, and for what reasons, it's also helpful to try something before knocking it. Sometimes, ideas in theory sound bad but end up being good and vice versa, and what something looks like on paper also does not dictate the actual strength of a deck. I've been playing this exact version for some time now and I very rarely lose with it, no bullshit. I'm not asking everyone to conform to it, I just hope that some of the community at least respects the fact that Counterbalance Landstill is in fact a great version of the deck.

[Ranarion]

@ FoolofaTook.

... Snip. Really Long Quote...

Maybe you answered it before... but why don't you play any Humilities? I really loved them against nearly every deck.

[Ectoplasm]

I'll start out by saying that your list *does* look solid, Hanni, just that I think you're building a different deck which shares some of the things that make landstill good.
Landstill, in my opinion, is about drawing alot of cards and answering your opponent's threats with those cards. Once you reach a certain point in the game, you're so far ahead of your opponent through x-for-1 plays and carddraw that he has no hopes of ever getting back into the game, simply because you've drawn so many all-purpose answers to whatever he might be up to (vindicate, EE, plow, counterspell) that he won't even be able to play.

What this list seems to be lacking, in my opinion, is first and foremost the 'big' carddraw which allows you to comfortably cruise into the endgame and just reload your hand and win from there, I'm talking about fact or fiction and jace mostly. The deck's redundancy allows you to dig 5 with a FoF or keep filling your hand with a jace and know you're getting any answers you'd ever need to keep your opponent out of the game.

This brings me to the second point: the answers. While CB/Top could be viewed as an answer by itself, once you get into the lategame, even when resolving multiple standstills, you're going to draw into shit you can't use (like extra tops/balances) instead of stuff you could, such as engineered explosives, disks etc.

It *does* look like a strong deck, simply because the 'drop standstill, cycle decree/play factories and stall til the cows come home' strategy is a good one and you're still playing the bombs that everybody knows and loves, but I personally gotta say I prefer just playing the answers instead of asking cb/top to handle the situation.

[Hanni]

Maybe you answered it before... but why don't you play any Humilities? I really loved them against nearly every deck.

I stopped running Humility a long time ago, before I even started using Counterbalance. It just wasn't doing it for me. Unlike WoG and other similar spells, Humility isn't an answer on its own. Even if you drop one against Goblins or Merfolk, they can still smack you in the face with several 1/1's. At the time I was still using it, I lost several matchups against aggro with Humility out cause I couldn't find an answer to the 1/1's. Of course, this was before Elspeth. I realize the power level of the card, it is in fact very powerful... I just didn't like the fact that it isn't a stand-alone answer like WoG and requires other spells to actually save your ass. Again, this was way back when, it is possible with my new configuration that it could be sensational. If anything though, I'd make it a SB card, not a MD one. I'm very content with my current removal package in the MD.

@ Ectoplasm

I agree with you that card advantage is a huge deal for Landstill, one of the most important strategies the deck uses. You have more answers than they have threats, therefore you win. I'm still packing card advantage. I tested FoF a long time ago and just wasn't satisfied with it. I'm not gonna go into huge detail why, since it's not a bad card. Jace on the other hand, I think is very solid, and in a different version I'd definitely run him.

For me, the deck has sufficient draw. Also, keep in mind that CounterTop itself actually is card advantage. If you counter 3 spells with Counterbalance, you're essentially looking at +2 CA.

Top itself is gold, while not creating actual CA, enables the deck to draw the cards that do. Of all the possible draw engines the deck could possibly have, Top is my favorite one.

Also, drawing extra Tops/Balances isn't as bad as you think. First of all, if you do have CounterTop assembled, you float CB on the top of library for your 2cc spell. Worst case scenario is that it ends up in your hand and you pitch it to FoW. Secondly, multiple Top's shuffle themselves away, if for whatever reason you do get two in hand/play (via a Fetchland). Also, don't forget that many opponent's will destroy either Counterbalance, Top, or both, if they can. Multiples are sometimes valuable for that reason.

Oh, and simply playing extra cards like Disk/EE is great, but those don't answer everything. By this, I mean Instants/Sorceries that hurt us, whether they be Life from the Loam or something else, where Counterbalance can act as a catch-all.

[FoolofaTook]

@Hanni - That's not a bad list but it is severely lacking in ways to remove non-creature permanents. You have two answers for those and both of them are grippable, leaving you potentially at a loss.

That list IS like a slower version of Dreadstill. It's much slower in fact, because it does not have Spell Snare and Daze to manage fast threats early on. It doesn't have any real answer to land-based recursion either. Academy Ruins is going to make it miserable.

I see what you're trying to do there. The question is whether the matchups that Counterbalance helps against, which are definitely there, were bad enough to justify opening up the kind of weakness that removing EE, Cunning Wish/Vindicate, Nevinyrral's Disk, and the overall concept of 10+ removal now creates.

That's a heavy hybrid list and I'm not sure it gets the best of both worlds.

BTW, it occurs to me in looking at it again that one of the big problems is that you're relying on removal, yet at a lower density than normal and with only slow ways to dig it out. It's really got elements of Ugw Threshold in it as well but minus the Ponders that make that work somewhat well. The archetype problem you'll run into is the one where you are loaded for bear on creature removal in the early game but the permanent you need to deal with is not a creature. That's where the cracks in the concept will come in because your dig for your O-rings is going to be slow and painful and probably not successful often enough.

[Hanni]

I will agree with you on the non-creature permanent thing. I tend to rely on my countermagic for those particular spells. Counterbalance can still help against unresolved non-creature permanents too, but yes, there are times when an early resolved Chalice@1 or something can be annoying. I tend to bring the 2 O Rings in from the SB quite often, usually for DoJ, but it does vary.

I wasn't saying that this deck isn't slower than Dreadstill, I know it is. However, you cannot directly compare the two. Dreadstill is more closely related to an aggro/control deck than a board control deck, and my deck is clearly not aggro/control. You need to compare how much slower it is to other Landstill decks, not Dreadstill. In that comparison, the speed difference is negligible.

I'm also not really worried about Academy Ruins. If they get recurring EE going, that's fine. There are ways to play around that... and if they are wasting their draw step each turn to try and stop Elspeth tokens, let 'em. Worst thing it does is neuter DoJ.

I run 9 removal spells. The average lists I've been seeing run 10. Not much difference there, at least to me. Plus I can just as easily toss more removal into my SB if needed. I mean honestly, we're only discussing 4 card spots here. Top's would be in there as a 4-of regardless, since it's the best spell in the deck. I'm not sacrificing large amounts of removal, large amounts of draw, etc to fit it. Like I've said, in comparison to many lists, Counterbalance in my deck is just a replacement for Spell Snare... not removal, and not draw.

Additionally, I prefer the stability of the U/W manabase. But just as easily, you could splash black and swap O Rings for Vindicates. I just choose stability and consistency over power.

[klaus]

@ CB:
I have tinkered with CB as a 4-of SB addition for a shell with 3 MD Tops (thanks for the inspiration, Marius).

CB was meant to improve the following MUs in particular: Combo, Burn, Control.
Those SB slots were formerly occupied by T. Scullers (improving the Control as well as the Combo MU).
After some testing, I have to say that CB not only is more versatile (also golden VS Burn), it is also better at fighting Combo (kinda obvious) and less vulnerable and still oftentimes more efficient VS Control than my still beloved Scullers, or any similar substitue, while boasting a more convenient casting cost.

That being said, I'm positive CB is not fit for MD material.
The main goal of my MD (read: G1s) is to have as many efficient answers to a maximum of relevant archetpyes, and also as few bad topdecks as possible. Unfortunately, about 50% of the decks that one faces in a diverse meta are not properly answered by Counterbalance: Against Aggro strategies (a big chunk of most metas) it can be a neat tool, but only AFTER you have aquired board control*, at which point it tends to be win more.
* Sadly, it's a bad topdeck before that.

[Hanni]

Against Aggro strategies (a big chunk of most metas) it can be a neat tool, but only AFTER you have aquired board control*, at which point it tends to be win more.
* Sadly, it's a bad topdeck before that.

How is that any different from, say, Spell Snare? Regardless, how is that relevant when Landstill tends to have a good aggro matchup anyway? Counterbalance is actually really good at improving the Goyf Sligh matchup, and while less attractive against Zoo, still pulls its weight. It definitely doesn't weaken the Zoo matchup, that's for sure. I can see it being arguable for both Goblins and Merfolk, which Counterbalance is mediocre against. The thing is that most decks do, in fact, fall into CB range. If they didn't, why would CounterTop be so successful in the other decks its played in?

I think it's more a matter of people not being used to it. Landstill has been around forever, and most lists haven't adapted the shell enough to use it. Yet when a new deck emerges, like ITF, Counterbalance is not argued about whether it's effective or not in a board control strategy. Counterbalance is a reusable Counterspell, which at some point, is going to advance the decks gameplan. Obviously it doesn't change the board state when the opponent has a few guys on the ground: that's what WoG is for. Does that mean we should drop Counterspell too?

The best reason to not run it that I've heard is the metagame: if you have alot of decks in the metagame that are either only minorly improved or not improved at all by it, then obviously don't run it. However, it does improve matchups against the majority of decks out there, with several of them being very bad matchups for us in the first place (like Aggro Loam).

Maybe going in the SB is the right call for some. Either way, it should be within the decks 75. I have yet to see a great enough reason why I wouldn't run it MD, though.

[mossivo1986]

As klaus mentioned Counterbalance comes in against the following:

Burn, Combo, Control

Apparently marius mentioned it comes in against zoo as well, which is going to take some testing to get used to.

[Hanni]

Those are very vague categories. Burn can be considered both traditional Burn and Goyf Sligh. Combo is, well, combo. But what do you consider as control? I just 2-1'd a Canadian Thresh list with both of my wins being with the CounterTop lock, which completely locked him out of the game. Do you consider that as control? What about Aggro Loam? The mirror? "Control" is a very vague description, IMO.

Counterbalance is great vs Zoo. Of course it's not going to do what WoG does if they already have a bunch of guys out. That's why we run WoG. What CounterTop does is prevent them from recovering or coming back once you've stabalized. The ability to defend against burn spells after your already in burn-out range is really helpful. Plus, CounterTop can be achieved as early as turn 3 (with mana open, that is), so it isn't necessarily a lategame lock. It's definitely not win more, and while it doesn't answer what's already on the board, it can prevent bad situations from getting worse.

However, I'll let the topic go. Hopefully I've sparked enough interest for at least a few people to test it and share their results. If SB CB is as far as it goes, that's fine. Personally, I think MD CB is the way to go.

[undone]

Q: vs tempo thresh how does counterbalance help the "goose, go" plan.
A: It tries to keep TT off balance by countering cantrips, largely irrelivant because as long as they have goose and can get to 7 it doesnt matter since they can randomly blow you out late game (even more so if they play clique.)

You want the real reason CB hasnt been as widely adopted?

EE between 0 and 3 + Acadamy ruins >>>>>>>>>>>> CB

Top can go as high as 3 but it slows the deck down, I would rather just play 2 or 1 + enlightened. EE is such a bomb right now, it also makes some matchups you have 0 game against (ichorid much?) very, very winnable. Other matchups very difficult with CB vs EE

Stompy varients
The MIRROR

Also THE card vs combo isnt trap, or CB, its orims chant and MM.

[klaus]

Also THE card vs combo isnt trap, or CB, its orims chant and MM.

I overheard some guys whispering that a few Combo decks might have adopted targeted discard to fight through counterspells and Chants and the likes [seriously: Chant=not so hawt]. And Meddling Mage, even if he actually was better VS Combo, is still way too narrow to play him any longer...

SB CB: I lovin it :)

[chokin]

MM? Really? Teeg is a metric fuckton scarier. Against ANT, almost never will a single Meddling Mage stop them.

Chant isn't bad. Unless they make you discard it.

[Hanni]

Meddling Mage is blue, which makes it more valuable, since not having a blue spell to pitch to FoW is important. That, and Teeg screws with your other spells, like Elspeth and FoW. That, and Mage is useful in other matchups like Burn. That, and it doesn't require a green splash and is in your primary colors.

Chant is narrow and is only good vs Storm combo. Since Storm isn't even a bad matchup, and since Storm is hardly played, Chant is a horrible SB option.

[Benie Bederios]

MM? Really? Teeg is a metric fuckton scarier. Against ANT, almost never will a single Meddling Mage stop them.

Chant isn't bad. Unless they make you discard it.

Teeg isn't a good combo with Force of Will...

At Hanni: Why don't you fit in CB in the 4C Landstill? I've been reading it and the curve of that deck is thanks to Pernicious Deed a little better. Just something I was wondering.

Benie

[Elf_Ascetic]

I spend some serious testing against ANT lately. For those who don't know, as a member of Team Nijmegen, I have the opportunity to test against some seriously skilled ANT pilots.

The list I used has 4 Fow, 3 SSnare, 3CS, 4 Brainstorm, 2 Top and 2 Jace. The rest is not relevant.

I tested preboard, and postboard with some sideboardslots devoted to combo. In those slot: Negate, Counterbalance (with a 3th Top), Meddling Mage and E Canonist. And of course, some Relics and Extirpate.

The matchups sucks. Really really sucks. 3 SB slots only improve the matchup 5%, from 10-90 to 15-85 or so. It really isn't worth it. If you want to win from ANT, either play another deck, or devote at least 9 cards to it.

Or off course, pray for a unskilled pilot.

I've given up against ANT, and just run some other good stuff instead (a 4th Plague, 3th Relic, 3th Path to Exile).

Ow, and against lists running doomsday, it's even worse. Dropping standstill means loosing, unless you have a 4th turn elspeth and 3 Force to survive that turn.

[NQN]

For me the main reason for playing LS was to beat the shit out of CBTop.deks.
A list with only 3 answers to a CB doesn´t do that imo because it´s harder for you to stick an early balance than it´s for them. Off course you can just randomly win games but I prefer to know I won´t loose, no matter what happens.
I can see CB in the SB, but as Ascetic mentioned you actually still won´t win 2/3 against Ant and stuff and loam will just board 3 grips (if they don´t already have some MD) and go ftw. My opinion, and I DID test CB MD.

[undone]

1) ANT is a tough matchup but its about 40/60 if your opponent is skilled and your of equal skill. Although there is one thing I would note, I run 4 Cspell and 4 snare and 4 FOW which helps some. You HAVE to mulligain aggressivly into a Cspell effect. I would also say chant is NEEDED if you want to consistentaly win the matchup. EE for 0 slows down 2x LED hands. Standstill is a force pitch till you have elspeth online.

2) MM does everything you want in this matchup, the best name is chant/silance, followed by duress if your playing chant. Once they cant disrupt you only counter businuss (IT, AdN, IGG exct)

If you want to win the ANT match play the following cards

MD
4 Snare
4 Force
4 Cspell

SB
4 MM
4 Chant
X extirpate (countering 1 chant followed by removing the rest+peeking thier hand is awsome actualy)

The truth is thier deck isnt scary once we remove chants/duresses after that its very easy imo.

Or you can do something someone showed me was funny as hell....

....

...

..

.

Board in crainal extraction. Many times opponents will wait to go off because you dont have a clock and such. Cast this card naming tendrils of agony. Extend hand they cant beat you any more (partialy because goblins cant kill you and tendrils will not help. If they are playing burning wish it doesnt work but it was funny the one time I saw it. Not that good but putting a T4 clock on them is ligit pressure (same as a dreadnaught actualy.)

[jazzykat]

Actually 1 hit from a dreadnaught makes it awfully hard to go off at a maximum of 8 life (usually less from fetches). You effectively put them on a 3 turn clock, and Dreadstill is a nightmare for AdNT anyway.

[FoolofaTook]

Teeg isn't a good combo with Force of Will...

At Hanni: Why don't you fit in CB in the 4C Landstill? I've been reading it and the curve of that deck is thanks to Pernicious Deed a little better. Just something I was wondering.

Benie

Counterbalance and Pernicious Deed don't mix well. Counterbalance and Engineered Explosives is much better.

[Hanni]

Counterbalance and Pernicious Deed don't mix well. Counterbalance and Engineered Explosives is much better.

That, and I would never play 4c Landstill. The manabase is atrocious.

[LostButSeeking]

Combo in my area doesn't involve ANT. I can't even remember the last time I was tendrilsed to death. It might have been aluren combo.

Anyway, Combo in my area is almost universally solidarity. I've played a couple of matches, pre and post-board, and have found the matchup to be winnable with a decent draw. I have three Meddling Mages in my sideboard (partially because the new flavor text is so AWESOME--sorry solidarity players, but you lack the will to oppose disorder.) I've found them to be good, but I'm never quite sure what to name when I play them. I usually name cunning wish, but I've also tried flash of insight, brain freeze, meditate, reset and once, when I was really sleep deprived, echoing truth. They can't remove it now! Wow!

Anyway, I was wondering if you thought MM was worth it if your combo matchup is usually going to be solidarity, and if so, what you name when you play it.

[rsaunder]

Anyway, I was wondering if you thought MM was worth it if your combo matchup is usually going to be solidarity, and if so, what you name when you play it.CB is better against solidarity, but honestly I named cunning wish or meditate when I was playing landstill when solidarity was big in the states.

The more thought and playtime I give counterbalance, the happier I am with it. It's absolutely nasty against all of the matchups we have trouble with. It saves so many slots over the 3 MM/3 Halo or even the 4 Chant/4 Mage SB listed below. 3 slots and burn rolls over, combo loses all of its scary tools, and Zoo loses half their threats and half their reach. Thresh takes a beating too.

I urge those who are still running other 2-drop combo hate out of the board to try CB.

[mossivo1986]

Counterbalance = :smile: Good! Edit: In the sb.

Also to note Zendikar Enemy Fetches = Big Deal for Legacy and thus (Landstill.)

More specificly Obsidian Flats. I'm super excited about this card and I really think anyone looking to optimize their land-bases needs to throw in the consideration of this card.

A simple breakdown in my fetch-lands will show you this

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta

Now to me obsidian flats completely replaces polluted delta or 1-1 splits it at the very least. I think the idea is that land-still wants 2 basic plains and 1 basic island by turn four and often times I end up with a flooded that I search for an island turn 1 with; then I end up sucking it with a t3 polluted delta to mess with my basic land drops. I really think the end result will look something like this.

Land 23:
4 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Underground sea
4 Flooded Strand
2 Obsidian Flats
3 Island
3 Plains
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins
1 Dust Bowl

[ssilver]

Hey Landstill I think I am the first to see this, so I get to state the obvious first:


Luminarch Acension 1w

Enchantment Rare

At the beginning of each opponent's end step, if you didn't lose life this turn, you may put a quest counter on Luminarch Ascension.

1{W}: Put a 4/4 white Angel creature token with flying onto the battlefield. Activate this ability only if Luminarch Ascension has four or more quest counters on it.




Sooooo.... looks fun doesn't it?

Plays well under standstill, with all of Landstills removal, and with Wog, and Elspeth who can block goyf until you get 4 counters. (as a sidenote it also makes dumb fog decks more playable :/ )

Thoughts?

[Hanni]

Relatively similar to Hoofprints, IMO. Both are solid cards, but I feel like Elspeth replaced them as win conditions, and the deck wasn't really hurting for any more.

However, it does appear testworthy, since once it hits 4 counters, you don't need to add any more. Plus the fact that it costs 1 less to activate. Might be a valuable addition. Also ups the 2cc count for Counterbalance (which matters to me MD, to some SB). Might actually be better in my build than Decree, since it adds to the 2cc spell count. Only problem is that Decree makes Standstills better.

The thing about Hoofprints though is that with Brainstorm, you can activate it the following turn. Or with double Top you can activate it once every two turns. Waiting 4+ turns to finally activate Acension may be too long. If you can go 4 turns without taking damage, you tend to be in a winning position anyway.

I dunno. Testworthy, at the very least.

EDIT: Oh shit, there's no restriction on how many times you can activate it in a turn? That could be disgusting.

[undone]

Card is actualy absurd. With a measly 6 mana you can kill a dreadnought and lose 0 anything. With mana you can put 20 flying points of power on the board.

That said this card is only absurd on turns 2-4 because otherwise it takes forever to set up. It also has the unfortunate side effect of dieing to disk and EE@2. Cards saving grace? It is able to be used at instant speed.

The first statement is only true in referance to EDH :P where the card is actualy busted.

Also I have a question for the lists running CB, why run CB when you could run EE+ disk. Disk and EE have acadamy ruins and dont punt to grip (well EE at least) while CB punts to EE, Grip, predator and basicaly every deck that has adjusted to CB.

[Misplayer]

I have a question for the Landstill community: how good is Engineered Explosives?

Personally, I've found it to be underwhelming lately. For me, it's been either a 1-for-1 (pay 6 mana to destroy Counterbalance), or a 1-for-2 (e.g. destroying LofA and Silvergill for 4 mana while still staring down Cursecatcher + Reej). Rarely have I used it in its strongest capacity: to take out opposing creatures AND enchantments/artifacts in a 2-for-1 or greater. I think good CounterTop players understand they can't over-extend into an EE with say Goyf, Bob and Counterbalance the same way good aggro players understand they can't dump all their men on the table into a Wrath.

What I'm trying to say, or ask rather, is how much would this deck lose if the EE slots were replaced by some combination of Vindicate and Wrath of God? EE is usually used to perform either the function of Vindicate (1-for-1 on a permanent, usually for way more mana), or the function of Wrath (x creatures-for-1, but less effective).

Obviously you're sacrificing versatility, but you pay for EE's versatility in casting plus activation cost. The rather significant mana investment of EE is a bitter pill for me to swallow, especially early game. Sure it's incredible late game, but your whole deck is incredible late game even without EE.

The other biggest strength of EE that I can think of is against tokens (EtW, Zombie tokens, and of course Decree tokens). Also, Ruins recursion is pretty ill, but that's achieved about once a tournament if you're lucky and really just increases your late-game inevitability, which the deck has anyway.

In summation: is EE still worth 3 slots? 2? 1?

EDIT:

Also I have a question for the lists running CB, why run CB when you could run EE+ disk. Disk and EE have acadamy ruins and dont punt to grip (well EE at least) while CB punts to EE, Grip, predator and basicaly every deck that has adjusted to CB.
CB is used to answer non-permanent spells, which EE and Disk do nothing against. Counterbalance in Landstill also does not really "punt" to EE, they have to cast it for 6 to be safe plus activate. If they want to invest 8 mana to destroy one card, I'm ok with that. That's when you cycle Decree on their ass.

[rsaunder]

I've never been a fan of disk, largely because I feel the niche it fills is already filled satisfactorily by other cards (EE, WoG, and Cunning Wish, humility as the super-powerful card to combo with Els). I also feel its exclusion makes playing counterbalance in any way more feasible given how efficent it is at eating counterbalances.

That being said, I would never go with a number of EE other than three. Especially in my new build it's a beating and a half. It recurrs, doesn't blow up things you don't want it to blow up, and most importantly can handle an early vial which is something the deck seriously can't handle without it. It's nuts against Zoo, thresh, and really everything else because the format relies on 1/2cc creatures to win. Cutting EE means a worse merfolks matchup, along with zoo, thresh, storm, CB.top.dec, and goblins matchups. And really just everything else.

For those of you that are running wish, what are your boards looking like right now? I really want to fit in either fracturing gust or R2D but I'm having trouble making a cut.

3 EPlague
3 CB
2 Relic
2 P2E
1 Negate
1 FoF
1 E. Tutor
1 Extirpate
1 Pulse

I guess the obvious choice would be cutting P2E#2 for R2D#1 but I was also interested in fitting in P2E#3 because I love playing 7 STP.dec against elves and merfolk post-board. Negate also seems out of place, but I want my wishes to also be hard counters, and to me that's definitely worth the slot. And of course it gets boarded in sometimes too. I know Moss, you don't like FoF out of the board but I'm still on the fence on it. I've been wishing for it less and less but for a while there I was pulling it every other game or so which makes me worry about cutting it. Especially since I don't play as much "real" card advantage as traditional lists MB, I think this slot might be a necessary evil.

[FoolofaTook]

EE is one of the cards that makes Landstill playable. Without it you wind up with too many permanents that slip through the cracks and too many situations where an early token dump on you is fatal because of the timing.

The ability to recur it if you're doing that is great but the main strength of EE is that it really is a catchall for the early permanents that would otherwise cause problems.

Nevinyrral's Disk is a decent sweeper and obviously there are themes that support it well in Landstill. That said, it is not a replacement for EE in most builds.

[Shawn]

For those of you that are running wish, what are your boards looking like right now?


Here's mine:

1 Pulse
1 Extirpate
1 Return to Dust/Dismantling Blow (I usually play Return to Dust, if I expect Teegs and Blood Moons, I'll play DBlow)
2 Path to Exile (I want to fit two of these main, since I seem to side them in every matchup)
2 Relic
1 Crypt (to fight Needle from Dredge, recurs with Ruins in the lists where I play it)
2 Engineered Plague
1 Hydroblast
1 Blue Blast
3 Meddling Mage


The last seven slots are flexible depending on the meta. If I'm running Humility main, I'll squeeze in an Enlightened Tutor. If I expect a lot of tribal, I'll play a Tsabo's Decee instead of adding a third Plague.

[Elf_Ascetic]

How does Tsaboo's work against Tribal? (and Merfolk in particular) Do you get enough time?

[Shawn]

It's a blowout against goblins and elves, since they have no way to stop it. However, it's just "ok" against merfolk, since their LD-package and the combination of Cursecatcher and Daze make it really slow. I haven't found stabilizing my mana too much of a problem against them, though, most of the time I run out of gas and get poked to death since I can't cast my Standstills due to Vials of Mutavaults or they've countered my FoFs. One advantage it does have over Plague is it kills all of their guys regardless of the number of Lords in play.

[mossivo1986]

Tsabo's Decree isn't the greatest thing ever. You don't stop mutavault from attacking you and honestly if you get it to resolve then your probobly already winning. It isn't reusable like disk and it doesn't offer you an inevitability like disk can with Elspeth's Final ability.

[Misplayer]

My current wishboard looks something like this:

4 Engineered Plague
3 Counterbalance
3 Path to Exile
2 Negate
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Extirpate
1 Return to Dust

Plagues + Extirpate + 7 StP effects give you a not terrible game against Ichorid without devoting grave hate. 7 Swords/Path + Extirpate help with Aggro-Loam too. Counterbalance is the best answer for combo/burn and is solid against Zoo as well. Negate/Extirpate for control mirror.

Ideally, each card in the sideboard improves 2+ matchups.

[Tinefol]

Seriously though, if you get to use Disk along with Elspeth's ultimate against Merfolk, you are probably should have won already with Elspeth alone. That argument is moot. Tsabo's Decree is less 'win more' here, though it's still too costly.

Generally speaking, I'll overview removal spells against Merfolk

StP. The best spell. Only stopped by Spellstutter Sprite if they play it. Unless Merfolk's in a very favorable situation, he's not going to spend FoW on this.
PtE. About the same, and drawback is almost neglible.
EE. Victim to Annul and/or Stifle, doesn't stop Mutavault. Still, your best shot at 2-for-1'ing them and it also can destroy Vial.
WoG. Weak. Doesn't stop Mutavault, requires double W, 4cc - weak to Daze AND Cursecatcher.
Firespout - see WoG, and it can be Hydroblasted.
Pyroclasm - better play something else. You cast this, they vial out second lord in response.
Red Blast - good, though it doesn't stop Mutavault and can be Hydroblasted.
Plague - seldom works. Not only it can be Annuled, it also sucks with a lord on table.
Fire/Ice - good. Allows some 2 for 1 exchanges, but you better also have StP in case they vial a lord.
Disk - a little better than Wrath, but so slow and can be easily Annuled/bounced.
Humility - somewhat better than disk, though it also can be Annuled or bounced for Alpha strike. Makes Plague good.
Wasteland - hits the bloody Mutavault. Never bad.
Pithing Needle - good. Stops dead Vial or Mutavault, whatever is your biggest concern there.

So out of 20 tournament matches I've found that the more you have swords & wastelands, the better you're in this match up. Other spells are weaker.

[mossivo1986]

[QUOTE=Tinefol;379866]Stuff that you said.QUOTE]
Actually if you resolve elspeth's ultimate it doesn't mean shit in the merfolk matchup usually. The same goes for landing an elspeth unless you've already resolved the boards situation, in which anything could hypatheticly win you the game.

Also to answer your merfolk testing theory
Merfolk Hate: (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=378646&postcount=2266)

obviously the more stp you see is better in an aggro matchup...

Wasteland on the other hand doesn't really count for shit other then grinding out their mutavaults. Which if your running wasteland you take another huge tempo disadvantage if they happen to stifle it.

[Ectoplasm]

Luckily merfolk hardly runs stifle anymore :)
I found merfs to be about a 50/50 matchup, sometimes they jizz all over your face and drop 80 men on the table and rape you before you can do anything, sometimes they're not as explosive and you can slow them to a crawl with EE/plows and start to play your own game instead.
It all depends on the first couple of turns and the disruption that comes with it, once you get the big stuff going you're probably going to win, outside of any surprise unblockable lord/vial in wakethrasher at EOT shenanigans that can catch you off-guard.

[rsaunder]

Luckily merfolk hardly runs stifle anymore :)
I found merfs to be about a 50/50 matchup, sometimes they jizz all over your face and drop 80 men on the table and rape you before you can do anything, sometimes they're not as explosive and you can slow them to a crawl with EE/plows and start to play your own game instead.
It all depends on the first couple of turns and the disruption that comes with it, once you get the big stuff going you're probably going to win, outside of any surprise unblockable lord/vial in wakethrasher at EOT shenanigans that can catch you off-guard.

I've found the best strategy, especially with the new builds not running stifle is to pre-emptively set an EE@1 to combat vial. That shuts off their draw (largely, you're better under standstill without vial to worry about) and makes your counterspells that much better. Vial is what wins and loses this matchup in my experience. And sticking a crucible kinda makes everything easier.

[Ectoplasm]

I've found the best strategy, especially with the new builds not running stifle is to pre-emptively set an EE@1 to combat vial.

I do this as well :) It's especially good when followed by a turn 2 standstill. Sometimes they daze/fow it, which is good as well since they either lose tempo or cards, often they just let it resolve in which case you're (usually) good since your deck is better under standstill, barring bad luck (wasteland streaks).

[rsaunder]

I do this as well :) It's especially good when followed by a turn 2 standstill. Sometimes they daze/fow it, which is good as well since they either lose tempo or cards, often they just let it resolve in which case you're (usually) good since your deck is better under standstill, barring bad luck (wasteland streaks).

First game I ever played against merfolk he ripped 3 wastelands and 2 mutavaults and made me break my own standstill. Must be nice.

Still won the game though, humility the turn after he got the draws was savage.

I'm not 100% satisfied with plague at the moment, has anyone extensively tested shackles? I don't want to run preacher against the neo-goblins that's bound to take the format by storm soon...

[Hanni]

Plagues + Extirpate + 7 StP effects give you a not terrible game against Ichorid without devoting grave hate.

That's a damn fine idea that I hadn't thought about. I was running 4 Relic in my board solely for the Ichorid matchup (I don't bring them in vs anything else), but Path seems like it would be very effective against them as well. If they don't have Ichorid's or Narcomoebas to sac to make tokens/Therapy, and they don't have Putrid Imp's to discard with, they can't really dredge effectively. Why should I run 4 of a sideboard card that's sole intention is 1 matchup that I rarely see (albeit my worst one), when I can run 4 of a sideboard card that's great against other decks too (like Merfolk).

Thanks.

From my deck I'm gonna go -4 Relic +4 Path to Exile, though I'm considering maybe 3 PtE, dropping the 1 WoG, and going 2 Humility/Moat. I'll have to playtest around with that.

[Benie Bederios]

First game I ever played against merfolk he ripped 3 wastelands and 2 mutavaults and made me break my own standstill. Must be nice.

Still won the game though, humility the turn after he got the draws was savage.

I'm not 100% satisfied with plague at the moment, has anyone extensively tested shackles? I don't want to run preacher against the neo-goblins that's bound to take the format by storm soon...

I removed the Plagues a while ago for 3 Path and a Shackle. A Shackle wins games against Merfolk by it self. The only card you have to worry about is Lord of Atlantis because of Island Walk. I haven't lost a match against Merfolk since. I have no reason to play just one Shackles though, it just feels good.

Benie

[Tinefol]

Actually if you resolve elspeth's ultimate it doesn't mean shit in the merfolk matchup usually. The same goes for landing an elspeth unless you've already resolved the boards situation, in which anything could hypatheticly win you the game.

What I mean, is that more often than not, if my Elspeth gets into ultimate range, I'm attacking for 4 or 5 every turn. Indeed there's no point using ultimate there - just bash for the win. There are times when she's on defense, but that's a relatively rare situation.


Also to answer your merfolk testing theory
Merfolk Hate: (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=378646&postcount=2266)

Wasteland on the other hand doesn't really count for shit other then grinding out their mutavaults. Which if your running wasteland you take another huge tempo disadvantage if they happen to stifle it.


Maindeck Annul (instead of Stifle, that gets run less and less) changes the experience.

[Citrus-God]

Wasteland on the other hand doesn't really count for shit other then grinding out their mutavaults. Which if your running wasteland you take another huge tempo disadvantage if they happen to stifle it.

You don't "Waste" their Mutavaults unless a Standstill is in play. Just saying... walking into Stifle is just kinda stupid... but you lure them out anyways by cracking fetchlands, so it doesnt make a difference whether a Stifle gets played or not: so the verdict here is that whatever you try to do, you're going to be fucked by Stifle no matter what. EE? They will definitely Stifle it if they can. Fetchlands? Obvious. Wastelands? Sometimes. DoJ cycles? From time to time, they might. I'm just saying, if you don't run Wastelands because of some irrational fear that they'll cast Stifle on you, you really need to work on not only learning how to play around Stifle but learn how to bait it out too. More often than not, saccing a Wasteland is one of the best ways to bait a Stifle out so you can drop and crack that EE for 2.

[memnarch]

As far as wishboards go what do you guys think about retaliate or even the odds? Also would you recommend using something like razormane masticore just to have a win condition to fetch with enlightened tutor? Teamed with academy ruins or jace he might be able to control some fatties.

[Misplayer]

I just want to publicly apologize for questioning EE. Played against 2 canadian thresh lists last night and I had completely forgotten about Mongoose. I've been thinking in terms of the Merfolk matchup too much lately.

Also, Counterbalance out of the board is extremely sexy in the Canadian Thresh matchup, especially because neither opponent saw it coming.

[gustha]

First game I ever played against merfolk he ripped 3 wastelands and 2 mutavaults and made me break my own standstill. Must be nice.

Still won the game though, humility the turn after he got the draws was savage.

I'm not 100% satisfied with plague at the moment, has anyone extensively tested shackles? I don't want to run preacher against the neo-goblins that's bound to take the format by storm soon...

I run 4 stp 3 path 3 vindicate 2 elspeth 1 shackles MD since june-july, and 4 plagues SB. This gives a nice shot on merfolks. However, speaking only of shackles, they were SB and I promoted them to the MD (thanks klaus for stating: "shackles is not a SB card", whatever you wanted to say with that :laugh: ) because it's too good against lots of deck, beginning with the mirror match and passing through bant (snaring only pridemage), thresh (saving EE@1 for mongeese), zoo, tribal, dreadstill, etc. Against merfolk, the only real things they can do is: a) needle shackles: one less need on explosives and eslpeth; b) untap it with rejereey: nice trick but they don't always have rejerey on the table. I won some games at 1 life only because I had shackles to protect myself with their own creatures. In the mirror match, shackles is good to open the way to elspeth without casting our ones or wasting vindicates; under standstill, is a must-break, more than simple wastelands; recurrs with ruins; we should run enough island to control even goyf and stalker (despite land disruption, of course...). The only things the can't potentially reach are mongoose and dreadnought, which can be both solved by EE@1. Moreover, it's a wincondition by itslef, as is elspeth: you wouldn't have to put both on the table, one is enough. The only downoside is that EE@3 is not so unfrequent, but heh, jace has the same problem too, does not recurr with ruins, and I play it as well! :tongue:
@plague: I don't know why people are disliking it. yes, if you run 2 it isn't worth the slots. But if you run 3/4, you should have at least one on the board, and this is what we need. We need pague just to slow the opponent down so we can take the pace. Against goblins is still a solid card, 2 is enoguh to kill them. Against elves, is a wrath effect no matter what. Against merfolk, the objection I continue to read is that the have too much lords... Well:
a) bring in more spot removal;
b) firespout is good: can be hydroblasted? sure, and hydroblast can be pyroblasted too, and lots of things; moreover: b1) if the bring in more countermeasures, they need to sacrifice a bit of explosiveness, which is good for us; b2) if we have firespout we are inclined to have rebs too, which are additional stp with no drawback;
c) they bring in annul: so what? see point b1).
d) they run 8-12 lords, but they have still 8-12 creatures which have toughness 1 (cathcer, silvergill, thrasher). We have lots of spot removal to deal with early lords, and EE@1 to get rid of vial. A singleton plague is enoguh to prevent them from casting a good half of their creatures until they can succesfully resolve and protect a lord... i don't call this a bad result...also, for point b1), if they lose some explosiveness, and they virtually don't have any draw engine, they are likely to slow down just the time we need to settle.

To sum up, merfolks is not an easy MU, but it's not unwinnable, and plague is still good because: needs answers (and that means a little less explosiveness), 1 is just good to slow them down, the rest of our board control should do. And shackles is one of the greatest tool here.

[rsaunder]

I can dig dropping the relics, though I'd still like to bump up to 2 extirpate at least if I thought I'd be seeing dredge more than once. As for plague, I guess you guys are right, I had a string of games last night though that scared the hell out of me. You know those ridiculous merfolk draws that seem to just keep coming and you can't stop? Must be nice. Anyhow, my prediction is that after the new edition, we will be seeing way less merfolk and elves because of the resurgence of goblins. Luckily we should be able to deal with instigators with our current MB.

For the Moment:

3 Plague
3 CB
3 P2E
1 Negate
1 R2D
1 Pulse
1 E. Tutor
1 FoF
1 Extirpate

My next thoughts are on an artifact in the board; I run 1 crucible MB right now but if I could fit it in the board I could be convinced to run a shackles somewhere. Or bump back up to 1 Jace MB, I've been missing the hard draw recently.

[gustha]

If your list is that posted on page 143, I'd maybe swap 2 waste for +1land+1bowl and stick crucible to the sb (instead of fof), thus finding room for shackles. (And i'd probably drop the decrees for +1 jace +1 something I don't know right now, but that's another question :tongue: ).

[Misplayer]

I have to disagree with cutting Decree of Justice. It's the best win condition in the deck. Elspeth is usually faster and more inevitable, but DoJ is often better because that you can cycle it under Standstill and through opposing countermagic. It's also much better on defense. The deck would lose too much versatility by cutting Decree and I, for one, would advise against it.

[rsaunder]

I have to disagree with cutting Decree of Justice. It's the best win condition in the deck. Elspeth is usually faster and more inevitable, but DoJ is often better because that you can cycle it under Standstill and through opposing countermagic. It's also much better on defense. The deck would lose too much versatility by cutting Decree and I, for one, would advise against it.

This. DoJ is one of the rare cards in the deck I cut in absolutely zero matchups. It's my late game bomb that digs and stalls at the same time, all at instant speed and uncounterable. Plus, it works with my draw engine. I'd never run more, or less, than two of these bad boys. Same with Elspeth.

Shackles is probably a better MB slot than crucible right now, but it still doesn't do it for me for whatever reason. I guess that's just going to have to be my meta slot and could swing wither way depending on whether or not I expect to see tribal aggo or countertop.dec/landstill all day. I still want another draw spell, but at the moment that's going to have to take a back seat to fitting in both of the 3cc artifacts somewhere between MB and SB.

The place I feel it's most likely to fit into my 75 right now is in place of P2E#3, and getting moved MB for crucible.

[gustha]

EE@0 then standstill, and bye to your doj. I don't understand why you guys continue to run doj + waste and then run 3 standstill. If you play doj, then by all means play 4 standstill, this is THE draw engine of the deck. However, I agree that doj is a strong card, but I'm fine to play without (if the meta is really controllish, though, doj is welcome!).
However...
http://www.wizards.com/mtg/images/tcg/products/zendikar/k39wm1w1y9_EN.jpg
Fetch go. Land go. eot fetch. Sure, and after fetch resolves, put 1/5 of your deck in the grave...Thoughts?

[Misplayer]

Think about how many times you'll draw that card and wish it was something else...

Milling your opponent contributes nothing to your game plan. If you're staring down an unfavorable board position, this card sucks. If you have a favorable board position, this card does absolutely nothing for you. It's a cute trick but not nearly good enough to replace any of the standard utility spells in Landstill.

[rsaunder]

Think about how many times you'll draw that card and wish it was something else...

Milling your opponent contributes nothing to your game plan. If you're staring down an unfavorable board position, this card sucks. If you have a favorable board position, this card does absolutely nothing for you. It's a cute trick but not nearly good enough to replace any of the standard utility spells in Landstill.

It doesn't even matter against us... It just makes crucible and academy ruins a little better. If aggro wants to waste a card milling me, they should feel free. All in all, interesting but I think useless.

And I WANT standstill#4. Badly. Probably over Jace, honestly.

[gustha]

It doesn't even matter against us... It just makes crucible and academy ruins a little better. If aggro wants to waste a card milling me, they should feel free. All in all, interesting but I think useless.

And I WANT standstill#4. Badly. Probably over Jace, honestly.

If this is yuor list:

4 STP
3 EE
2 WOG
1 Humility

3 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell
4 FOW

3 Brainstorm
3 SDT
3 Standstill

2 DoJ
2 Elsbitch
2 Wish
1 Crucible of Worlds

4 Strand
2 Delta
4 tundra
1 sea
1 scrub
3 island
2 plains
2 waste
3 factory
1 tolaria west
1 academy ruins

SB:
3 CB
3 E. Plague
2 Relic
2 P2E
1 Negate
1 E. Tutor
1 FoF
1 Extirpate
1 Pulse of the Fields
If I were you (and of course, I'm not :laugh: ), I'd play:
-1 crucible
+1 shackles
-1 tolaria west
+1 mishra's factory
-2 wasteland
+1 dust bowl
+1 other land (tolaria again? another plains? another dual?)
Or maybe going down to 23 lands (tolaria is more a spell, than a land, from my point of view) and find room for that 4th standstill/1 fof.
Sb you could go -1 pte (shackles acts as that missing path) and find a spot for a sb crucible, if you wish. and also take out 1 fof for, say, another counterbalance or another relic, or another plague (shouldn't be needed though). It's really hard to find spots in this list, it's seems solid enough. Or just saving that pte slot for shackles, so you could swap the 3cc artifacts in&out as the field requires. My point is that maybe, moving crucible sb, you can just adjust the manabase (+1 mishra +1 bowl) and find room for standstill in the slot of tolaria west. (The point is: do you really want tolaria in the place of the 4th standstill? because as far as I can see, this is the contended slot, I'd never remove anything else...)

[Misplayer]

rsaunder: if you make gustha's recommended manabase changes (with the "other land" being a Plains) then you'll have the manabase I've been using. Dust Bowl is nice because it let's you run 4 Factory while keeping your colorless land count at 6. Obviously you draw it less than multiple Wastelands, but you're only going from 2 to 1 anyway.

Your mainboard is only 4 cards off from mine too:
-1 EE, -1 Humility, +2 Vindicate
-1 Counterspell, +1 Brainstorm
-1 Crucible, +1 Standstill

I based mine off the list Wasteland (Marius) posted a few pages back (link (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=376035#post376035))

[rsaunder]

You're probably right, Tolaria is an awful land, but I hate to drop below 24 sources. 23+Crucible or 23+E. Dragon are both acceptable, but I don't want to drop either wasteland. I've won far too many games off of wasteland to cut them, they're way better under standstill than dust bowl and way better than mishra's factory quite a bit of the time. In fact, if I were to work on solidifying the manabase a little (i.e. freeing up a slot), I'd probably cut both ruins and TW for another wasteland and the free slot. This, I feel absolutely justifies MB crucible over shackles (thus they go into the board in place of P2E#3). Also, with the 3 top/3 brainstorm cantrip base, I feel even more comfortable cutting my worst land. So, after these tweaks:

1 humility
2 WoG
3 EE
4 STP
4 FoW
3 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
3 SDT
3 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
1 Jace/Standstill (Leaning towards standstill, it helps the CB curve)
2 DoJ
2 Els
2 Wish
1 Crucible (could be shackles is a specific meta)
2 Waste
3 Factory
4 Strand
2 Delta (one will probably be a b/w fetch eventually...maybe)
4 Tundra
1 Sea
1 Scrub
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Plains/Waste

SB:
3 CB
3 Plague
2 P2E
1 Negate
1 R2D
1 Extirpate
1 Shackles
1 Pulse
1 FoF
1 E. Tutor

I'll give the manabase you guys are suggesting a shot, probably with shackles MB in the crucible slot because that seems to be the common consensus, and if I'm not running wasteland, it makes all the sense in the world. I don't like the untutorable 1-of lands, especially when they're so situational to begin with, but we'll see how it runs both ways. As for the board, FoF and R2D will be my first cuts for more counterbalance/extirpate but right now I don't think either is necessary. Tim and testing will tell and thanks for the feedback!

Some more numbers: The MB curve looks like:

1cc: 13
2cc: 7 (minimum of 10 post-board in matchups where CB comes in)
3cc: 3
4cc: 7
5cc: 4

I like this, though the 4th CB could come in to up my 2cc count to 12 post board in the combo matchup.

[HPB_Eggo]

So, the following is my Landstill list, I think it's quite decent, overall. I would like any feedback that you all have, as I know for a fact a lot of you are better at playing this deck than I am.

4x Flooded Strand
2x Polluted Delta
4x Tundra
2x Island
2x Plains
2x Plateau
1x Volcanic Island
4x Mishra's Factory
1x Academy Ruins

3x Jace Beleren
2x Elspeth
2x Ajani Vengeant

4x Standstill
4x Force of Will
4x Counterspell
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Engineered Explosives
3x Wrath of God
3x Brainstorm
3x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Cunning Wish
1x Nevinyrral's Disk

SB:
1x Pulse of the Fields
1x Path to Exile
1x Lightning Helix
2x Negate
2x Firespout
3x Fire/Ice
4x Relic of Progenitus

One thing I know for sure is that I am unwilling to play Counterbalance, be it in the side or the main. I've always found it to be pointless for Landstill to play it. Yes, it provides CA. Yes, it makes the combo matchup even better than it already is. It has a lot of good things going for it, which is why it's a good card, and they have decks built around it.

The problem with playing it in Landstill is that we have no clock. Our opponents aren't pressured to find solutions to resolved threats, and this generally means they can play around Counterbalance without that much difficulty. Counterbalance is only really good when you can convince your opponent it's worth gambling that you don't have a one or two-drop in your top three cards to, for instance, get rid of a Tarmogoyf. Otherwise it's just another CA engine, one that can be played around and doesn't deal with resolved threats.

That being said, all other suggestions are welcome. Keep in mind that I'm expecting a rather aggro-heavy meta in my area, especially after Zendikar comes out.

[rockout]

Answer me one question: In what instance will you ever wish for lightning helix? Why not just run volcanic fallout instead of fire/ice plus its better and you don't have to worry about BEB,Daze,Force,Cursecatcher...

[gustha]

Helix is good, I can se it being path#3 and not a simple wishable 1-of. If he planned to gain some life, wish for pulse is certain far more good. Helix comes in in Mu's in which path comes in, it's basically as the first attack never succeded. So that slot could be path as well, but it's not completely wrong to have this split, though it may seem a little random at first sight.
The things that upset me, are:
-you use red, but not reb....
-you use red, but run firespout in the board, as well as a total of 5 wrath effects? isn't it a bit overkill?

[memnarch]

I have to agree with Hanni on this one I think countertop works wonders in UW Landstill. I ditched Cunning Wish and some bulk and went for the best cards. I matched against some ichord combo and did extremely well. That's one of the ones I was worried about. But recurring wastes then countertop set to one stops breakthroughs and many discard outlets. since there is no GB for deed, UW builds often can EE a specific number. Anyways EE can often be cheaper, like VS. Ichord and tokens. The reason for the seclusion of WOG is I thought its really not as fast as EE and EE and STP can sweep faster and not get dazed as easily. I also think Oblivion Rings are important in the current environment, Wizards is only printing more great plains walkers.


land 24
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
2 Plains
1 Island
1 Underground Sea
3 Faerie Conclave
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins


spells
2 Elspeth, Knight-errant
1 Decree of Justice
4 Brainstorm
4 FOW
4 STP
4 SDT
4 Counterspell
4 Counterbalance
2 Standstill
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Oblivian Ring
2 EE

side
4 Engineered Plague
4 Wheel of sun and Moon
3 Sphere of Resistance
4 Meddling Mage

[Tinefol]

So, the following is my Landstill list, I think it's quite decent, overall. I would like any feedback that you all have, as I know for a fact a lot of you are better at playing this deck than I am.

I play similar UWr Planeswalker still, and here's what:
by all means 2x Volcanic + 1x Plateau is better than 1x Volcanic + 2x Plateau. Simply because Deltas can't fetch Plateaus and you need more blue sources than white sources.

Personally, I run 2/2/2 PW split, and think 3xJace is overdo. Matter of taste probably. If you're in aggro heavy meta, you should play more targeted removal (be it F/I - it isn't S/B card or PtE) and Spell Snares. While you still can live on 4 swords with 4 'Wrath' effects (additional targeted removal is not absolutely necessary), without Snares its almost impossible. I just can't understand why people cut this card.
Also, guess 4x Counterspell is too many. There are a lot of permanents and mana hungry top, you often fetch for basic plains on turn2. Overall, it loses a great bit of effectiveness when you're tapped out. Most people play 3.

S/B looks rather bad. Where do you need 4 Relics? F/I is not really sideboard card.

[HPB_Eggo]

-you use red, but not reb....

That is something I had not thought about at all. I guess I'd better look into it.


-you use red, but run firespout in the board, as well as a total of 5 wrath effects? isn't it a bit overkill?

Possibly. I like never having a problem with swarms of creatures, though.


Also, guess 4x Counterspell is too many.

I like my hard counters, and the deck does a good job of taking care of things that resolve early.


S/B looks rather bad.

MY SB is always bad. However, I do absolutely need all four Relics. Fire/Ice is currently there because I tested it and liked it, but couldn't figure out what to cut for it.

[mossivo1986]

HPB_Eggo


That is something I had not thought about at all. I guess I'd better look into it.

How do you not think about R.E.B when you consider red as a splash in a control deck? Also the red tempo splash should probably go in the Ultimate Walker thread where that concept comes from. The fine people there can give you help and advice that we probably won't be able to help you with.


Possibly. I like never having a problem with swarms of creatures, though.

Saying this means you haven't tested that archtype well enough yet. The focus of that deck is it splashes red to not get hozed by the control decks and also plays red to be able to handle threats that the black splash can't handle as easy. This is the second reasoning why I think you should go to the Ultimate Walker thread.



I like my hard counters, and the deck does a good job of taking care of things that resolve early.


4 Counter spell is absolutely obsolete in land-still and isn't played in Ultimate Walker because the deck also attempts to get around playing cards with C.C. 2. Because of this Ultimate Walker plays Forbid (Or at least did last I knew.) All of this thirdly indicates that you need to further test against more of the meta-game.


MY SB is always bad.
Your sideboard should never be bad. It should always address specific problems that your main deck cannot handle.



However, I do absolutely need all four Relics.
Why? Does your meta-game have obscenely high graveyard based decks like ichorid, thrash. If so then completely understood, but if you just generally fear graveyard shenanigans relax.

[mossivo1986]

I have to agree with Hanni on this one I think countertop works wonders in UW Landstill. I ditched Cunning Wish and some bulk and went for the best cards. I matched against some ichord combo and did extremely well. That's one of the ones I was worried about. But recurring wastes then countertop set to one stops breakthroughs and many discard outlets. since there is no GB for deed, UW builds often can EE a specific number. Anyways EE can often be cheaper, like VS. Ichord and tokens. The reason for the seclusion of WOG is I thought its really not as fast as EE and EE and STP can sweep faster and not get dazed as easily. I also think Oblivion Rings are important in the current environment, Wizards is only printing more great plains walkers.


land 24
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
2 Plains
1 Island
1 Underground Sea
3 Faerie Conclave
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins


spells
2 Elspeth, Knight-errant
1 Decree of Justice
4 Brainstorm
4 FOW
4 STP
4 SDT
4 Counterspell
4 Counterbalance
2 Standstill
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Oblivian Ring
2 EE

side
4 Engineered Plague
4 Wheel of sun and Moon
3 Sphere of Resistance
4 Meddling Mage

This deck is aggro control overkill. This isn't 2005 it's 2009. The idea isn't to overkill the control match up, it's to beat the meta-game of aggro, aggro control, combo, and tempo decks.

Play test the zoo, thrash, and basically anything that puts you on a clock and I think your going to understand where I am coming from. You also might consider testing white splash thresh then coming back to land-still to get an idea of what your doing. But as for now your decks utility land mess, mixed with 4x counterbalance in the main-deck and 4x counter spell.

[HPB_Eggo]

How do you not think about R.E.B when you consider red as a splash in a control deck?

I'm really quite good at forgetting things, especially when I'm first trying another color in an old build.


Also the red tempo splash should probably go in the Ultimate Walker thread where that concept comes from.

Just because the deck splashes red does not make it Ultimate Walker.


Saying this means you haven't tested that archtype well enough yet. The focus of that deck is it splashes red to not get hozed by the control decks and also plays red to be able to handle threats that the black splash can't handle as easy.

That's simply not true. I've played UW Landstill forever(not including any part of forever longer than six years ago), and I'm trying the red splash specifically for Ajani Vengeant and Lightning Helix, to help shore up matches like Burn and Zoo. Firespout came in because it's good against Ichorid and Tribal, and Fire/Ice is something I'm still testing to see whether it's worth using.

In short, I didn't splash to hose control, although I could see where a lot of people would do that. REB/Pyroblast will probably end up replacing Negate and Fire/Ice in my SB, because they're good against a great number of decks, but that will be the extent of my use of red when it comes to attempting to "not get hozed by control decks."


4 Counter spell is absolutely obsolete in land-still and isn't played in Ultimate Walker because the deck also attempts to get around playing cards with C.C. 2. Because of this Ultimate Walker plays Forbid (Or at least did last I knew.) All of this thirdly indicates that you need to further test against more of the meta-game.

I'm going to just flat-out disagree with you here. Spell Snare does not do what Landstill needs it to do, i.e. be ready to counter anything we aren't prepared to deal with. Daze won't work later in the game, and Mana Leak is nearly as bad. Forbid costs three and it's buyback cost is prohibitive.

I've tested every replacement for Counterspell that has been suggested to me, and none of them fill the slot as well. My apologies if this doesn't fit into your view of the deck, but that's simply the way it's worked out for me.


Your sideboard should never be bad. It should always address specific problems that your main deck cannot handle.

Thank you for pointing this out. I think we can all agree that anyone who doesn't know this should be retaught how to play Magic...


Why? Does your meta-game have obscenely high graveyard based decks like ichorid, thrash. If so then completely understood, but if you just generally fear graveyard shenanigans relax.

There is an awful lot of Ichorid in my meta. It also helps a lot against Loam, which is around sometimes, and anything that runs 'goyf, i.e. a large portion of the good decks in the format.

[rsaunder]

Counterspell doesn't deserve 4 slots anymore. It's a mid-game permission spell, which is an absolutely critical role, but that means that 4 is the wrong number. I run 3 (as does Moss and everyone else, I think) alongside 3 spell snares. Even ultimate walker (which is what you're playing) runs spell snares because the whole effing format revolves around 2cc cards.

[Tinefol]

The inclusion of red and Ajani doesn't make the deck that other "Ultimate Walker". Or saying it the other way, being "Ultimate Walker" doesn't make it less Landstill. My deck is like 5 cards off UWb I used to run previously. Name it Ultimate Walker or Walkerstill, its still what this thread is about - UWx Landstill. Now that one with Ancestral Visions and Forbid is a different story.

[i_need_the_extra_turns]

This. DoJ is one of the rare cards in the deck I cut in absolutely zero matchups. It's my late game bomb that digs and stalls at the same time, all at instant speed and uncounterable. Plus, it works with my draw engine. I'd never run more, or less, than two of these bad boys. Same with Elspeth.


Exactly. DoJ is the perfect win condition for this deck. I only board it out, when I won the first game and I want to board in a specific sidboard card for this certain matchup.

And I would also never go below 2 Humility. The whole metagame fears this card and it is like a combo finish for this deck. U cant loose the game while humility is in game. And in the case it gets destroyed, it has given u the turns to win the game.



CoW

I play one maindeck CoW. I think u can cut it as a metagame call and play additional draw (FoF) or shackles but in 80% of the games I play CoW it gives me at least one additional land drop. And this fits perfectly in our game plan.



And I WANT standstill#4. Badly. Probably over Jace, honestly.

In my opinion u have to play 4. I want to see this card in 100% of my games. The really rare situations where this card has no impact (it pitches to force...) are nothing when u compare it to the great influence in the others.

greetz

[rsaunder]

In my opinion u have to play 4. I want to see this card in 100% of my games. The really rare situations where this card has no impact (it pitches to force...) are nothing when u compare it to the great influence in the others.

It sucks against merfolk where Jace shines. I'd probably run jace#1 over standstill#4 in the same metagame where I'd run Shackles over crucible.

[dal9ll]

What about Preacher over Shackles? What meta would be better to run him over the ol' cuffs?

[konsultant]

What about Preacher over Shackles? What meta would be better to run him over the ol' cuffs?

Preacher is an alternative to Shackle's focusing on the Merfolk match up due to their inability to remove Preacher unlike Shackles whitch can get hit by Grip. I have tested both and find Preacher to be far superior and have been running Preacher for awhile and have beaten the last 5 Merfolk decks i've faced.


The inclusion of red and Ajani doesn't make the deck that other "Ultimate Walker". Or saying it the other way, being "Ultimate Walker" doesn't make it less Landstill. My deck is like 5 cards off UWb I used to run previously. Name it Ultimate Walker or Walkerstill, its still what this thread is about - UWx Landstill. Now that one with Ancestral Visions and Forbid is a different story.

I agree as long as it's a UWx control deck that runs Standstill you are in the right thread.

[Roelke]

So I've been playing landstill for two tournaments now. In the first list I played Cunning wish but I mostly used it to wish for PTE, so I decided to play the PTE's maindeck the second time. Playing 6 1cc removal spells was quite nice and I really didn't miss the wishes (well, maybe once when my opponent got a volrath stronghold+witness going). I lost 2 games due to bad desicions; but overall the games went well. Actually only losing one match to ichorid. I didn't really expect the deck so I only played 2 crypts side.

There was one thing that bothered me during these two tournaments; the speed of the deck. Even though I only lost 1 round I managed to have 5(!!) draws over the course of 12 games. Most of those round I had one quick game and one long (30+ minutes) game. Then it was really hard to actually finish or play the third game. Next to that, of the 6 rounds I won, two where won with 1-0-1. I don't consider myself a slow player, but when either I or my opponent got a SDT out (or worse, both of us). Things tended to get really slow. But next to that I had some games where my opponent got rid of my kills fast so I needed a lot of time to stick one; even though I was in control the entire game.

So my question is; are there any ways; either by playing-style or playing more kills to speed up the deck a bit?

Ps. I run the usual 4 factory's, 2 decree's, 2 elspeths and a crucible.

[Citrus-God]

So I've been playing landstill for two tournaments now. In the first list I played Cunning wish but I mostly used it to wish for PTE, so I decided to play the PTE's maindeck the second time. Playing 6 1cc removal spells was quite nice and I really didn't miss the wishes (well, maybe once when my opponent got a volrath stronghold+witness going). I lost 2 games due to bad desicions; but overall the games went well. Actually only losing one match to ichorid. I didn't really expect the deck so I only played 2 crypts side.

There was one thing that bothered me during these two tournaments; the speed of the deck. Even though I only lost 1 round I managed to have 5(!!) draws over the course of 12 games. Most of those round I had one quick game and one long (30+ minutes) game. Then it was really hard to actually finish or play the third game. Next to that, of the 6 rounds I won, two where won with 1-0-1. I don't consider myself a slow player, but when either I or my opponent got a SDT out (or worse, both of us). Things tended to get really slow. But next to that I had some games where my opponent got rid of my kills fast so I needed a lot of time to stick one; even though I was in control the entire game.

So my question is; are there any ways; either by playing-style or playing more kills to speed up the deck a bit?

Ps. I run the usual 4 factory's, 2 decree's, 2 elspeths and a crucible.

With those win conditions you really shouldn't be going to time often. I'd say practice more and learn to play aggressively. If you want, you could add on a 3rd copy of DoJ or Elspeth to speed games up.

[Tinefol]

From my experience Top speeds up your games by filtering out less useful cards and giving you win conditions when you want them. I've got only 4 draws in recent 34 matches, where as without it was roughly 1 out of 3 or 4 matches. The wincons are 3 Factory, 2 Elspeth and 2 Ajani, no DoJ, but DoJ is a very good win condition.

Just play your win-cons at the right time, when your opponents are either exhausted or cannot disrupt it and end the game quickly. Sometimes you're better of being agressive, sometimes you just hold your Factory beats.

Playing fast with top requires some practice, a couple of tournaments and you'll speed up.

[Roelke]

I guess you're right that top somewhat speeds up. But if both players have a top in play that means you lose about ten to twenty seconds "topping" every turn, which sums up quite fast.I'll try to play somewhat more agressive next time (which is something I didn't really do). That should speed up at least some games.

[NQN]

That is the one fact about the deck that has ONLY got to do with practice.
I play the deck for a period of 1 1/2+ years and actually, I rarely need more than 30-35 minutes for a match. I´d say maybe I enter the turns in 1/10 rounds or so. You just have to practice the "standard moves" so that you have more time to think about the difficult situations. Thats pretty much everything about the myth I hear rather othen when playing: "I´d never pick up landstill, It´s sooo slow and I never have some time to eat/smoke/whatever".
Just practice, the deck gets faster itself then.
Top doesnt really help since he may get you the wincons faster, but therefor he needs a lot of time for "eot, top" or "resp,top".

EDIT: I often see People playing Elspeth and then going for token, go, token, go token, go. I believe that it´s very important to apply pressure as fast as possible and so I always build one man, and then swing for 4 every turn. Obvious it´s not always possible, but it should be most of the time.

[Romanus]

EDIT: I often see People playing Elspeth and then going for token, go, token, go token, go. I believe that it´s very important to apply pressure as fast as possible and so I always build one man, and then swing for 4 every turn. Obvious it´s not always possible, but it should be most of the time.


I do the same with Elspeth. Unless I need chumps, those 1/1's and sometimes a Factory start taking flying steroids asap.

[mossivo1986]

I believe it depends on

Overall gameplan (If you think you could lose out against a removal spell etc.
If you have a specific protection plan (Disk+Elspeth's final)
If you've got tempo and a beater on your side (Eot vendillion + mainphase elspeth pump is huge in the control mirror.)

[Svenyboy]

Hello @ all,
Yesterday I made the first place with this Landstill mix build in Frankfurt:

2 Jace Beleren
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Ajani Vengeant

2 Humility
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Cryptic Command
2 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Academy Ruins
4 Mishra's Factory

Board:
4 Relic of Progenitus
2 Hydroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Circle of Protection: Red
3 Ajani Goldmane


Cardchoice:

Jace Beleren: Carddraw and very good in the Hardcontrolmirror with mill ability.
Elspeth: Finisher like Uwx Landstill.
Ajani Vengeant: Best card in my build. Removal against Aggro, Manascrew and Armaggedon ability. Very important! Best play, Humilty and Ajani in game. Damage on each Creature and Elspeth finish then.

Humility: Important with Elspeth. No explenation...
Tutor: I play a lot of Artifacts and Enchantments. We need it to have a clearly game.
Top: Card Draw and manipulation.
CoW: Important for Fetchlander and Mishra's Factory. 1 is enough with the Tutor.

Brainstorm: No explanation...
Force of Will: No explanation...
Counterspell: Best Counter in Hardcontrol.
Cryptic Command: Very flexibly. Bounce, draw, tap or counter. No problem with 24 Lands and CoW. Very important. Tap Creature and Tokenfinish.
Spell Snare: Good against Aggro and Aggro Control.
StoP: Spotremoval. No explenation.

Board:
Gravehate.
Worst MU against Burn/GoyfSligh with Circle and Ajani.


Matchups:
Canadian Threshold:
Good Game! Nimble Mongoose and Tarmogoyf aren't a problem, food for Ajani V. The fast CoW helps against Wastelander and Stifle. Postboard with 4 Relic of Progenitus for -2 Jace B. and -2 Cryptic Command the same.
2:0

Dragon Stompy:
I lost the first game with Chalice 1 and Trinisphere. I had a baaaaad draw with Muligan 5 :b Postboard no Problem with Circle of Protection. Easy game.
2:1

Rock:
Discard was a problem. Elspeth, Ajani and Humility were always the targets. Counterspell and Cryptic Command to slow to counter Thoughtseize, hymn to T. and Duress. But Elspeth and Humilty made a good job and took the win after a very very difficult game.
2:1

GoyfSligh:
Burn + Critter. I lost in Turn 5 in the Preboard. Then the board made the job with 4 Circle of Protection, 4 Hydroblast and 3 Ajani. I am not sure but i think Jace, Cryptic Command, Ajani V. and Spell Snare got out the build.
2:1

Second Canadian Thresh:
I won the first game easy with Ajani :D The second game was horrible. A early game with 3 Wastelands and 2 Stifles was the gamekill, Midgame 2 goyfs. Very lucky Threshplayer. Game 3 was very slow, Threshplayer did nothing, counter 1 Ajani and 1 Eslpeth but the second Ajani resolved and raced my oppenent.
2:1


Yeah, that was the tournament. Sorry for the bad english. What do you think about this build. I hate the board, it was random ^^
Any idea for improvements?

Greets.

[mossivo1986]

Hello @ all,
Yesterday I made the first place with this Landstill mix build in Frankfurt:

2 Jace Beleren
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Ajani Vengeant

2 Humility
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Cryptic Command
2 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Academy Ruins
4 Mishra's Factory

Board:
4 Relic of Progenitus
2 Hydroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Circle of Protection: Red
3 Ajani Goldmane


Cardchoice:

Jace Beleren: Carddraw and very good in the Hardcontrolmirror with mill ability.
Elspeth: Finisher like Uwx Landstill.
Ajani Vengeant: Best card in my build. Removal against Aggro, Manascrew and Armaggedon ability. Very important! Best play, Humilty and Ajani in game. Damage on each Creature and Elspeth finish then.

Humility: Important with Elspeth. No explenation...
Tutor: I play a lot of Artifacts and Enchantments. We need it to have a clearly game.
Top: Card Draw and manipulation.
CoW: Important for Fetchlander and Mishra's Factory. 1 is enough with the Tutor.

Brainstorm: No explanation...
Force of Will: No explanation...
Counterspell: Best Counter in Hardcontrol.
Cryptic Command: Very flexibly. Bounce, draw, tap or counter. No problem with 24 Lands and CoW. Very important. Tap Creature and Tokenfinish.
Spell Snare: Good against Aggro and Aggro Control.
StoP: Spotremoval. No explenation.

Board:
Gravehate.
Worst MU against Burn/GoyfSligh with Circle and Ajani.


Matchups:
Canadian Threshold:
Good Game! Nimble Mongoose and Tarmogoyf aren't a problem, food for Ajani V. The fast CoW helps against Wastelander and Stifle. Postboard with 4 Relic of Progenitus for -2 Jace B. and -2 Cryptic Command the same.
2:0

Dragon Stompy:
I lost the first game with Chalice 1 and Trinisphere. I had a baaaaad draw with Muligan 5 :b Postboard no Problem with Circle of Protection. Easy game.
2:1

Rock:
Discard was a problem. Elspeth, Ajani and Humility were always the targets. Counterspell and Cryptic Command to slow to counter Thoughtseize, hymn to T. and Duress. But Elspeth and Humilty made a good job and took the win after a very very difficult game.
2:1

GoyfSligh:
Burn + Critter. I lost in Turn 5 in the Preboard. Then the board made the job with 4 Circle of Protection, 4 Hydroblast and 3 Ajani. I am not sure but i think Jace, Cryptic Command, Ajani V. and Spell Snare got out the build.
2:1

Second Canadian Thresh:
I won the first game easy with Ajani :D The second game was horrible. A early game with 3 Wastelands and 2 Stifles was the gamekill, Midgame 2 goyfs. Very lucky Threshplayer. Game 3 was very slow, Threshplayer did nothing, counter 1 Ajani and 1 Eslpeth but the second Ajani resolved and raced my oppenent.
2:1


Yeah, that was the tournament. Sorry for the bad english. What do you think about this build. I hate the board, it was random ^^
Any idea for improvements?

Greets.

you have 15 4 drops. You might consider dropping your curve a bit to meet the meta.

SO lets take a look at what you played against:
2x canadian thresh
1x rock
1x goyf sligh
1x D Stompy

So every deck you played against - of course rock was a red tempo strategy. This means that all 9 (count them) pieces of your hate worked (Nice scouting? or just nice pairings?)

[rockout]

Your name is bitchtoken? That's how you want to be known by your peers? How does that not sadden you like it saddens me?

What also makes me sad about your post is 4x Cryptic Command. :cry: If you could explain to us all how 4 cryptic command was during the day I'd appreciate, I'm hoping you will say they were worthless and not needed so we don't spend the next 20 pages discussing why we would be running cryptic command.

[Svenyboy]

Your name is bitchtoken? That's how you want to be known by your peers? How does that not sadden you like it saddens me?

What also makes me sad about your post is 4x Cryptic Command. :cry: If you could explain to us all how 4 cryptic command was during the day I'd appreciate, I'm hoping you will say they were worthless and not needed so we don't spend the next 20 pages discussing why we would be running cryptic command.

Sure. :)
Cryptic Command the answer of all. You can bounce his goyf, draw a card or tap all creatures to race with your tokens :b 4 mana was easy to cast and it was very very funny to see the faces of the players when i played cryptic command. :D

I say always the same: You don't win the tournament with your build but with your brain!


@ mossivo:
I can't understand what do you mean. Yeah, my pairings was ok. Goyf Sligh and Rock were hard but i won it. Canadian Thresh was easy. Yeah, the curve is to high but i think that's why this build is called HARDCONTROL.

[Wasteland]

I would prefer to say that you won the tournament with this build that has nothing to do with Landstill anymore because all of the good players were playing in Milano...
Are there really no explosives in your build? -.-
Run against Goblins / Merfolk / Elves or any mana-disrupting Sui-build and you will not win a single game with ur cc4 spells...
Greetz,
Marius

[Svenyboy]

I would prefer to say that you won the tournament with this build that has nothing to do with Landstill anymore because all of the good players were playing in Milano...
Are there really no explosives in your build? -.-
Run against Goblins / Merfolk / Elves or any mana-disrupting Sui-build and you will not win a single game with ur cc4 spells...
Greetz,
Marius

Maybe :b
There was all Legacyplayers like every month ^^ Countertop, Canadian Thresh, GoyfSligh, Zoo, DragonStompy, Merfolk, Landstill, ...
Normal lists with normal players ^^
Yeah, EE was a good Cardchoice. But Ajani made a good job too. Furthermore I play 4 StoP and a lot of Counters with Cryptic Command to tap all creatures and Humility. That was enough. But ok, maybe EE in board for merfolk and goblins.

[Tinefol]

Well, a couple of months ago this (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=25620) has almost won a Mox, beating Caplan in the top4. Should Goblin players really discuss the awesomeness of card choices in that deck?

A bit sarcastic, but this is my feeling for the above decklist. No explosives? Cryptic Command? Seriously?

[mossivo1986]

BitchToken

@ mossivo:
I can't understand what do you mean. Yeah, my pairings was ok. Goyf Sligh and Rock were hard but i won it. Canadian Thresh was easy. Yeah, the curve is to high but i think that's why this build is called HARDCONTROL.


2 Jace Beleren
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Ajani Vengeant

2 Humility
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Cryptic Command
2 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Academy Ruins
4 Mishra's Factory

Board:
4 Relic of Progenitus
2 Hydroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Circle of Protection: Red
3 Ajani Goldmane

wow you conceivably have a 15 card sideboard against thrash. ROFLCOPTER!

Your pairings were not just ok. They were f****** fantastic! Especially with your 9 card anti-Red sideboard!

Just a rhetorical question to put out there::really:


Who in they're right mind plays 4 C.O.P: Red in any format other then perhaps standard?

Don't deny it:tongue: . You had fantastic match-ups and a fantastic sideboard planned or unplanned against red which you faced 99.9% of the day.

Also to the Cryptic Command Comment. I hear R.E.B is the Tits:laugh: in this format. :smile:

[mossivo1986]

Well, a couple of months ago this (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=25620) has almost won a Mox, beating Caplan in the top4. Should Goblin players really discuss the awesomeness of card choices in that deck?

A bit sarcastic, but this is my feeling for the above decklist. No explosives? Cryptic Command? Seriously?

Also Tinefol is 100% correct. (I just wanted you to know I can agree with you:laugh:)

-Moss

[rsaunder]

Okay, that DEFINITELY doesn't belong in the landstill thread. No standstill and no removal besides STP.

That being said, I don't like cryptic command. I'd rather have a spell without the prohibitive UUU cost like FoF to dig for other bombs and answers than something so narrow.

Also, as moss said, NICE METAGAMING. Holy hell man, that's like boarding 4 tividar's crusade and playing goblins all day...

[dal9ll]

Well, a couple of months ago this (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=25620) has almost won a Mox, beating Caplan in the top4. Should Goblin players really discuss the awesomeness of card choices in that deck?

Word. What sticks out to me is no fetchlands, vials, and Price of Progress in the SB. Voracious Dragon is a fiend though.

[memnarch]

Thanks for the constructive criticism reply on my deck. It does well against aggro and also ichord combo. Thresh packing stifles can be a tough match. The problem I ran into is other types of combo. Like enchantress. Which kinda makes me want to run cunning wish again just so I can side this: Tempest of Light. Then I still have to fight Replenish so save a counter for that. The other type of aggro decks use tribes often and I have Engineered Plague for that. The reason I had 4 Counterspells is usually I use one or two for FOW fodder as well as the counterbalance, that and both cards are amazing but cunning wish would give me more options game one. So I could add three and take out an o-ring, counterspell and a crucible? I find it hard to justify running WOG now days.

edit: @rsaunder I thought running Spell Snares weren't necessary when running CB just because you can hit that number so frequently with CB out.

[Master Shake]

I would like to how how well Ajani Vengeant is really doing in builds. What match-ups does it improve? We've all ready established that just about any planeswalker is amazing against control, but he actaully seems weak in the control mirror - Unlike Elspeth he doesn't put tokens into play to protect himself and unlike Jace he doesn't really generate any card advantage unless you're killing a dark confidant. He can never kill a gofy unless Humility is on the table in which case Elspeth is most likely better.

Against Zoo Type decks, if they only have one creature I can see him shining, +1ing him every turn. But he cannot take down a goyf and the best thing he can hope to do is really draw a few burn spells, which is good.

Against threshold He's good against anything that isn't Mongoose.

Anyone who has been testing it in Landstill can you explain which match-ups he shines in and which he is lackluster in (Except the obvious Combo and Dredge.)

[HPB_Eggo]

I would like to how how well Ajani Vengeant is really doing in builds.

Ajani is good in a number of situations and, contrary to what you might think.

Firstly, he can sit on the board and tap a creature after it has attacked, and continue to do so indefinitely if you keep other threats off the table. This is very strong against decks that don't run a lot of threats, like Dreadstill and certain Countertop builds.

He can sit around and tap a land indefinitely. In this, he acts exactly like Wasteland. He makes your Standstills stronger by shutting down enemy manlands, and he can keep an opponent who is light on lands off an entire color, or off the double blue necessary to cast something like Counterspell.

He eventually is a one-sided Armageddon. This is amazing in the mirror, as your opponent will have few, if any, ways to deal with him after he resolves. Resolution of his ultimate should win you the game all by itself. If you can manage to do it against most other decks, the game is probably already over, but it can actually be the deciding factor in the mirror.

Finally, his minus ability is quite good. At the very least, he can act as a four-mana Lightning Helix, which is not a bad thing.

The matches I've found him really good in are the mirror, Dreadstill, Countertop, and any deck that is generally low on creature and/or land count. The matches where he really is nothing more than a 4-mana Lightning Helix are fast combo and fast aggro, i.e. ANT, Goblins, or Merfolk.


unlike Jace he doesn't really generate any card advantage

This particular part of your statement is manifestly untrue. While he may not generate actual CA in many situations, he will replace himself through the virtual CA gained by his +1, and his second and third abilities will often generate quite a bit of CA. So, while Jace may draw you into solutions, Ajani is often both a solution and CA, which is what makes him so good.

[gustha]

The matches I've found him really good in are the mirror, Dreadstill, Countertop, and any deck that is generally low on creature and/or land count. The matches where he really is nothing more than a 4-mana Lightning Helix are fast combo and fast aggro, i.e. ANT, Goblins, or MerfolkI want to act the devil's advocate in this case, though I'm also currently testing a UWr version, but your explanation of the role of ajani kinda seems to de-value him despite of your intentions. In your opinion, Ajani is nothing more than a winmore, just because it is good only against decks against which other things are also good (or even more good), say the 3rd jace, the 3rd elspeth, doj, or any other tool white has access to. So, anyone that has finished reading your apology of A. Vengeant is asking himslef: "So why run an offcolor card that is good only against matches we can won without him? Without splashing for a third color, we could just go straight UW control". The effort of reintroducing a red splash for landstill is intended to keep a good mirror MU (or even to improve it, read: reb) and to improve the aggro MU by means of cheaper mass removal than wrath (read: firespout), just to say it simply. It's not a simple metagame choice, the effort is to define a build that has the same power level of "classic" UWb versions. If ajani vengeant has nothing to say against aggro and he's only good in MU we would already win without him, then by no means he should be in this list, landstill doesn't need winmore. If vengeant is in UWr landstill, it maybe is a little more powerful against lotta decks and not only vs control ones, being a more versatile board control element in mid-late game than just a "4 mana helix".

[Tinefol]

Like it been said, Ajani is a beating against control, and there he actually gives the deck edge other than some otherwise unfavorable match ups. I'm talking about black based control decks like Pox and Train Wreck.

Previously they just could play a game of 'get many lands, play a ton of discard and stick a game-ending threat'. No more, because Ajani eats up at least one of their lands and his Loyalty points going to 7 make them overxtend and cast the threats early, not protected by discard. You kill them, he does the ultimate = win.

Ajani is a beating against aggro-control or decks with light amount of creatures. Have Goyf or Tombstalker tapped forever? I'm in. Oh, they drop another creature? Wrath the board, destroy their lands.

It's never bad against aggro. Like it been said, at worst, its Lightning Helix + Fog for next turn. Generally it is so much more than that. You don't drop it when there are two creatures on the board, unless they go lethal next turn. Drop him when where are no creatures, or just one creature on the board, which is quite common. Burn or "tap". Keep it there for another turn. Now if it has 5 and they either face armageddon soon, or lose two creatures. Either is fine by me. I almost never 'armageddon' against aggro though - they choose to cast creatures and have them burned. But they don't have unlimited supply of them, so he gets its +1 quite often to replenish the loyalty. So ton of CA and virtual CA there.

Ajani + Elspeth represent some serious tempo, much more than Elspeth does alone. I've successfully raced Survival with Survival on table. I've raced Progenitus player with him on 26 hits. This isn't winmore, I couldn't just do that with Elspeth alone.

Ajani (along with Wasteland/removal/Dust Bowl) punishes mana light hands with birds/hierarchs/mana elves. Happens quite often for me. This is where F/I shines too.

He's quite good against specific types of combo. The not so easy match up against Enchantress becomes fine if you drop him. Not only he provides the mana denial here, they scoop when you destroy their lands. Found it useful against Ichorid, where he let me win 2 very long games preboard, by 'tapping' out their DRed Troll, letting me assemble double Standstill combo to deck them.

Granted, its Helix against ANT most of the time, but other Plainswalkers are no better there.

[gustha]

Like it been said, Ajani is a beating against control, and there he actually gives the deck edge other than some otherwise unfavorable match ups. I'm talking about black based control decks like Pox and Train Wreck.

Previously they just could play a game of 'get many lands, play a ton of discard and stick a game-ending threat'. No more, because Ajani eats up at least one of their lands and his Loyalty points going to 7 make them overxtend and cast the threats early, not protected by discard. You kill them, he does the ultimate = win.

Ajani is a beating against aggro-control or decks with light amount of creatures. Have Goyf or Tombstalker tapped forever? I'm in. Oh, they drop another creature? Wrath the board, destroy their lands.

It's never bad against aggro. Like it been said, at worst, its Lightning Helix + Fog for next turn. Generally it is so much more than that. You don't drop it when there are two creatures on the board, unless they go lethal next turn. Drop him when where are no creatures, or just one creature on the board, which is quite common. Burn or "tap". Keep it there for another turn. Now if it has 5 and they either face armageddon soon, or lose two creatures. Either is fine by me. I almost never 'armageddon' against aggro though - they choose to cast creatures and have them burned. But they don't have unlimited supply of them, so he gets its +1 quite often to replenish the loyalty. So ton of CA and virtual CA there.

Ajani + Elspeth represent some serious tempo, much more than Elspeth does alone. I've successfully raced Survival with Survival on table. I've raced Progenitus player with him on 26 hits. This isn't winmore, I couldn't just do that with Elspeth alone.

Ajani (along with Wasteland/removal/Dust Bowl) punishes mana light hands with birds/hierarchs/mana elves. Happens quite often for me. This is where F/I shines too.

He's quite good against specific types of combo. The not so easy match up against Enchantress becomes fine if you drop him. Not only he provides the mana denial here, they scoop when you destroy their lands. Found it useful against Ichorid, where he let me win 2 very long games preboard, by 'tapping' out their DRed Troll, letting me assemble double Standstill combo to deck them.

Granted, its Helix against ANT most of the time, but other Plainswalkers are no better there.
Thanks Tinefol, this is what I call a good explanation of a cards. Though I'm curios to know how you beat a prog on the table :laugh:

[rockout]

I need a sideboard for a zoo/burn infested meta. I know there will be a lot of ichorid as well. I don't care so much about the ichorid. I play cunning wish. If you say counterbalance, I will block you.

[rsaunder]

If you say counterbalance, I will block you.Why do you say that? One-sided chalices at 1 are good against burn and zoo.

Other lifegain is the obvious answer, pulse and ajani. That, P2E, and relic should all be in.

[J.V.]

I've been testing this lately, I wanted more spot removal because of Merfolk and Zoo but I also wanted to Keep Jace in there and work in Crucible... this is the product of all that..
// Lands:24
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [B] Tundra
2 [B] Underground Sea
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [TE] Wasteland
1 [B] Swamp (1)
2 [B] Plains (2)
2 [B] Island (4)
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
1 [B] Scrubland
1 [MM] Dust Bowl

// Creatures:1
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells:35
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
3 [TE] Diabolic Edict
2 [CFX] Path to Exile
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [OD] Standstill
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [LOR] Jace Beleren
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
1 [IN] Fact or Fiction
1 [B] Wrath of God
1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds

// Sideboard:15
SB: 2 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
SB: 2 [MOR] Negate
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 1 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 2 [B] Blue Elemental Blast

[Citrus-God]

@J.V.

Based on the way you built that deck, which has a lot of spot removal, I think you should cut DoJ. The reasoning for this is that you dont have enough to restart the board and slow the game down deliberately for you to ramp up to 8-10 mana to fully use DoJ effectively. Obviously with that game plan, you should be dropping an Elspeth down and bashing face. Also, cut Dust Bowl: that card is old news with Mutavaults and opposing Factories running around. Run another Wasteland instead. In fact, run at least 3 Wastelands if you expect any Merfolk at all. Also, with that color set-up, you should definitely take advantage of this and run Vindicate. It's a very powerful all-purpose card. Also, consider running Chainer's Edict over Diabolic Edict. Most games where I cast those cards, it's either because it's very early in the game (in which you will usually tap out a lot), or I'm facing some stupid shroud creature that wants me to clear him off the board (in which tapping mana on your own turn wont matter that much), so anything else in between, Swords and Path handle the board better.

So:

-1 Tolaria West
-1 Dust Bowl
-2 Decree of Justice
-3 Diabolic Edict

+2 Wasteland
+1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
+2 Chainer's Edict
+2 Vindicate


And if you can squeeze in Garruk Wildspeaker as Planeswalker 5-6, that would definitely make the deck more boss. Obviously you're going to have to cut Black, but totally worth it as Garruk keeps your in the game against Aggro and Control way better than Ajani Vengeant.

[mossivo1986]

Update in testing:

4 flooded strand
2 Marsh Flats
4 Tundra
1 und sea
1 scrub
3 island
3 plains
3 mishra
1 dustbowl
1 academy ruins

4 force
4 snare
2 c.s

3 top
3 standstill
3 brainstorm

4 stp
3 ee
2 wrath
1 humility
1 path
1 disk

3 decree
2 elspeth

2 cunning wish

sb:
1 pulse
1 pate
1 ray of dist
1 e tutor
2 path
2 relic
3 EP
3 CB
1 cow

[Mystical_Jackass]

This Ior Ruin Expedition and Spell Pierce look hella gg.

[rockout]

Ior Ruin Expedition only draws us 2 cards and takes 3 turns to become active. It also sacriifces itself when you draw the 2 cards. Spell Pierce looks promising. Foil Commons should be really cheap.

[Ectoplasm]

Why run spell pierce over negate?

[mossivo1986]

Spell Pierce to me looks like Yet another tool for Tempo thresh to utilize.

[memnarch]

This Ior Ruin Expedition and Spell Pierce look hella gg.

Standstill > Ior Ruin Expedition. Spell pierce looks interesting. But Spell Snare is used in many builds for the 1CC and that gets goyf as well. I don't even use snare with Counterbalance. So not hella gg. The power level is up on this new set though.

@mossivo1986: No wasteland? Its so much quicker then Dustbowl. You need that many basics? You still have counters and ways of stopping B2B and Blood Moon, those matches still don't come up as frequently as Goblins and thresh though. Teamed up with Crucible people tend to want to scoop after that resolves. And also 3 Brainstorm? That card is much to good to only use 3 especially when its the type of card that helps you late or early game when your searching for land / answer. I do agree with 3 Standstill though that card has been treating me well, with enough man lands and wastes you can out wait most any deck.

Changes to my deck:
24 land

4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Plains
2 Islands
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Mutavault
1 Faerie Conclave
1 Underground Sea
1 Academy Ruins

2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

4 STP
4 Brainstorm
4 FOW
4 SDT
2 Counterspell
4 Counterbalance
3 Standstill
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Cunning Wish
1 Wrath of God

side:

4 Engineered Plague
2 Wheel of Sun and Moon
3 Sphere of Resistance
1 Tempest of Light
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Path to Exile
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Disenchant

[from Cairo]

This Ior Ruin Expedition and Spell Pierce look hella gg.

Ior Ruin Expedition looks like an Ancestral Visions that: costs more mana, can be Spell Snared, can be Krosan Grip'd, and draws you 1 less card.


@ Rockout looking for a SB card against alot of Zoo and Burn, has Kitchen Finks been considered? It's kind of slow, but it can trade with their smaller guys or fog a couple Goyf swings, while gaining you some life. It might prove to be worse than Ajani, but it more or less seems like it accomplishes the same thing, soaking up some combat damage and gaining a bit of life. And the 3cc slot is generally less crowded than the 4cc slot, as far as curving out, idk just an idea.

[Ectoplasm]

Anyway what's wrong with actually running Ajani? He's been hella solid for me at least, doubling as an annoying lifegain-slowdown that gets you into the game and a tag-team with decrees and elspeth.

Edit: By running I mean putting him in your sideboard.

[i_need_the_extra_turns]

Ior Ruin Expedition is obviously bad but Spell Pierce looks really great. I think it will be played in tempo thresh. I dont know if it deserves a spot in landstill. Maybe it can replace Counterspell...but otherwise I like the versatility of hard counters.

@memnarch
Interesting. I usually dont like balance in Landstill.
I dont like the o-rings in your build. How do they work in testing?
Would be wrath/standstill/Path the better choice?
And I think you should play 6 fetchies. F. Conclave and Mutavault are too much - you play 4 wastelands.

@mossivo
I dont get the point with Marsh Flats. You play no swamps and you cant fetch a basic island, which seems much more important for me than the basic plains. At least I would play 1 Marsh Flat and 1 Delta.
3 Mishras looks a little strange but you play 3 decree for the finish which is acceptable.

@Dust bowl
I played dust bowl for several months in my list but I will cut it again for 1/2 wastelands. On the paper it looks really nice when u can screw your opponent with only one land but practically I often see me that I cant tap out in my turn (holding a counter) just to waste a land and see my opponent top decking a land. Wastelands fits in this roll. I can waste the land and play EOT Cunning wish->Enlight. Tutor-> CoW for the screw.
Otherwise dust bowl has its power in the control mirror.

[memnarch]

I'm running into alot of mirror and use of Plainswalkers. The O-rings are great. Cheaper then Engineered Explosives and EE can't hit high CC Plainswalkers either. Only up to 3CC so Jace I can hit with EE in my deck. Also its just the versatility for 3 mana is worth it but late game there is the factor of the O-ring leaving play.

[gustha]

@mossivo
I dont get the point with Marsh Flats. You play no swamps and you cant fetch a basic island, which seems much more important for me than the basic plains. At least I would play 1 Marsh Flat and 1 Delta.
3 Mishras looks a little strange but you play 3 decree for the finish which is acceptable.Mossivo's counter package basically relies on a single blue to work, while nearly all wincondition, and most board control elements, requires double white to work (not to mention white is a good portion of his sb). In the earlier stages of the game, is far more important for his list to quickly achieve a single blue mana and at least 2 white mana, diminishing the amount of specific white in the deck for the mid-late game, where blue really begins to matter. Having 6 ways to access his specific white i the earlier game is an assurance against aggro and aggrocontrol, so I can see why he want flats instead of deltas (though I'd probably go for a 1/1 split myself, but that's to say that his choice does make sense). 3 mishra is not strange, it's a lot he plays 3 to reduce the amount of uncolored mana producer lands in the effort of stabilizing the manabase. Now with the 3rd decree I see that choice matter much more.

@Dust bowl
I played dust bowl for several months in my list but I will cut it again for 1/2 wastelands. On the paper it looks really nice when u can screw your opponent with only one land but practically I often see me that I cant tap out in my turn (holding a counter) just to waste a land and see my opponent top decking a land. Wastelands fits in this roll. I can waste the land and play EOT Cunning wish->Enlight. Tutor-> CoW for the screw.
Otherwise dust bowl has its power in the control mirror.Maybe because you are using bowl in the wrong way. You don't want to waste "A" land, a generic land. You want to waste MANlands, and that's all. Landstill, in this configuration, is no more a deck that does massive LD, nor it cares. It better focuses on board control. You can think of bowl as the 4th factory if you wish, better defensive than offensive. And now with the 3rd decree, again the choice makes much more sense. Plus bowl allows to play without crucible, which is a gained slot, while waste usually requires crucible to work fine, and it requires multiples to do well, while bowl needs only itslef. Against aggro, you do not really want to make land disruption: the rare case it happens, you would have already won as well (or tempo decks that lose tempo for random screw have already lost, let's put it this way). Certainly, it's happened that I screwed a slow aggroloam with bowl on t4 and some vindicate: it's satisfactory, but it's not the main goal of the deck. Better not focus on LD to profit of the random screw of others, better to stabilize our manabase and care of LD essentially in the control MU, for which Dbowl was designed for, as you well understood.

[Misplayer]

Changes to my deck:


Your manabase scares the crap out of me. 10 colorless lands out of 24? This is exacerbated by the fact that your build wants UU on turn 2 and WW shortly thereafter. Also, I would recommend more fetches to maximize Top's effectiveness.

@i_need_the_extra_turns:
I prefer Dust Bowl because it takes up fewer slots and let's you run 4x Factory. Wasteland is much more of a tempo card whereas Dust Bowl is more aligned with the control strategy of Landstill. My biggest concern is that it only takes one opposing Wasteland to eff up that gameplan, but then I guess they're not hitting your Factories/colored mana.

@mossivo:
That latest list is begging for a 4th Standstill now that you have 3 Decree and 3 Factory (which I would bump up to 4 as mentioned above). I agree with others on the 1/1 Delta/Flats split. Lastly, how much better has 1x Path been over 1x Vindicate? FWIW, I like the list a lot.

[mossivo1986]

My list:


4 flooded strand
2 Marsh Flats
4 Tundra
1 und sea
1 scrub
3 island
3 plains
3 mishra
1 dustbowl
1 academy ruins

4 force
4 snare
2 c.s

3 top
3 standstill
3 brainstorm

4 stp
3 ee
2 wrath
1 humility
1 path
1 disk

3 decree
2 elspeth

2 cunning wish

sb:
1 pulse
1 pate
1 ray of dist
1 e tutor
2 path
2 relic
3 EP
3 CB
1 cow

Misplayer: I'll look into testing the fourth standstill again. Its been a while since ive run four.

Gustha: Took the words out of my mouth.

Memnarch:

No wasteland? Its so much quicker then Dustbowl. You need that many basics? You still have counters and ways of stopping B2B and Blood Moon, those matches still don't come up as frequently as Goblins and thresh though. Teamed up with Crucible people tend to want to scoop after that resolves. And also 3 Brainstorm? That card is much to good to only use 3 especially when its the type of card that helps you late or early game when your searching for land / answer. I do agree with 3 Standstill though that card has been treating me well, with enough man lands and wastes you can out wait most any deck.

No I prefer Dustbowl above wasteland. Wasteland is (quicker) then dustbowl but dustbowl is a repititious effect without wasting an additional slot on COW while also preserving your landbase. Rockout and I actually just had a conversation on this. In order to run wasteland (x3) you need to have a landbase of 24 lands or 23 + E. Dragon. Wasteland acts as a utility spell more then an actual land so nine times out of ten your going to be mana hungry more and also making it difficult to achieve the famous four land goal of land still. When wasteland actually does act as a land you run the problems of non basic hate as it fundamentally makes your land drops weaker (forces you to fix your mana more with non-basic answers.)

Keep in mind that this one distinction (Wasteland versus Dustbowl) is a dramatic difference in how I personally play land still.

Playing basic lands is stronger then producing countermagic to handle non-basic land hate.

Also FYI: Good players don't scoop to COW unless theres no out and a wastelock ensures inevitability. Also Cow isn't exactly amazing in the goblins or thresh matchups (Unless its thrashthrashthrash)

The idea with Land Still shouldn't be about playing the waiting game.

Also more manlands doesnt translate into more wins. It does however mean that you are much more susceptible to waste/stifle hozing's.

[gustha]

Gustha: Took the words out of my mouth.You're welcome. But please put that 4th standstill into your list. It screams for it. :laugh: I see 3 viable options:

1) -1 top +1 jace: jace is absurd in the control mirror, and you virtually have no other way to generate CA when you side standstills out (i mean, real CA, not the virtual CA of counterbalance); not hurting with the sb cb.

2) -3 top +1 standstill +2 fof
Straight ol' style. Card quantity over card quality. The deck can support it, plus fof is always broken in the control MU. You should let out cb from the sb for the good ol' MM as well

3) -1 top +1 standstill
Simple. Linear. Not hurting with sb cb. Good with your other deck choices. Don't really need the second top with the 3rd decree.


Playing basic lands is stronger then producing countermagic to handle non-basic land hate.This time it's your turn to take the words out of my mouth.

[whiteshepherdman]

I'm having a hard time with straight red sligh at the moment. Does anyone know a good strategy of playing against them? I'm already playing 3x Blue blasts and 3 negates plus an extra explosives in my sb against them but even at 10 life my life total seems to be at risk. my current strategy is fetching for basics to avoid price of progress damage and to hold onto swords for ball lightnings but turn 4 wrath to clear the board always seems to slow. by turn 2 with EE set at 1 my life totals already down to 12-15. What are cards that you guys would side out for this match up? At the moment i side out 3 vindicates, 1 wraths and 3 fact or fiction, leaving in 2 elspeths, 2 wrath and 1 humility as my 4 drops.

My win conditions are 3 factories 2 elspeths, 1 E dragon, 2 decree of justice but it just seems too slow against their fast clock

[rockout]

Ball Lightning? You might want to save a BEB for ball lightning since you don't give them 6 life and be willing to swords your mishra's in response to lethal. I'd advise running either cunning wish for pulse, ajani, or cop: red. The great thing about landstill is its ability to swing huge odds into their favorite post board even more so than any other deck in the format. I've even resorted to ivory mask at times. An idea that is outside the normal realm is something that can throw your opponent off and allow your path to victory easier.

[gustha]

Also, if you're playing black and your opponent plays lots of elementals, bring in engineered plague too...better than wrath...
@rockout: you avatar is too cool!

[rockout]

Also, if you're playing black and your opponent plays lots of elementals, bring in engineered plague too...better than wrath...
@rockout: you avatar is too cool!

Yeah, that's a good point. Being able to shut off a total of 24 possible damage from 4 hellspark elementals plus their unearth is a solid reason to bring in plague. I forgot to mention that, I do the same thing.

[Ectoplasm]

Ball Lightning is an elemental too :)

[whiteshepherdman]

k thanks guys for all the help. At the moment I'm seeing if this sideboard works against my more difficult matchups

2 Crucible of the Worlds
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Circle of Protection Red
2 Ethersworn Cannonist
3 Path to Exile
1 Engineered Explosive
1 tormod's crypt

Thoughts on room for improvement? I've designed it mainly against landstill's more difficult matchups, Combo, Tribal, aggro, and Canadian thresh. I haven't tested against ichorid yet though

[whiteshepherdman]

The 3 slots im using for cop red could also be something else, runed halo for example

[whiteshepherdman]

To me I feel that Cannonist is a better answer to combo than Orim's chant because if you chant tendrils in response to their chant they'll just stall and go off protected next turn

[mossivo1986]

2 Crucible of the Worlds
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Circle of Protection Red
2 Ethersworn Cannonist
3 Path to Exile
1 Engineered Explosive
1 tormod's crypt


This sideboard is incredibly confused.

[whiteshepherdman]

This sideboard is incredibly confused.

why's that?

[mossivo1986]

why's that?


2 Crucible of the Worlds
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Circle of Protection Red
2 Ethersworn Cannonist
3 Path to Exile
1 Engineered Explosive
1 tormod's crypt

your running 1 tormod's crypt. Thats a total of ONE graveyard removal in your entire deck. Now if you run west (Im assuming you do) then you still are handing any graveyard deck a bye.

EE is kind of awkward especially if your running 3 in the main deck (You should be running three.)

cannonist is perfectly fine but if you run cop red and beb I really think your over comiting yourself. Take a look at my list a page or so back and run that. I think youll like its rdw matchup!

[whiteshepherdman]

your running 1 tormod's crypt. Thats a total of ONE graveyard removal in your entire deck. Now if you run west (Im assuming you do) then you still are handing any graveyard deck a bye.

EE is kind of awkward especially if your running 3 in the main deck (You should be running three.)

cannonist is perfectly fine but if you run cop red and beb I really think your over comiting yourself. Take a look at my list a page or so back and run that. I think youll like its rdw matchup!


2 Crucible of the Worlds
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Circle of Protection Red
2 Ethersworn Cannonist
3 Path to Exile
1 Engineered Explosive
1 tormod's crypt

hmmm let me try to explain my logic behind this and if i'm still overcommitting towards my red match ups i'll change things.

against Thrash i board in 2 crucibles 3 BEB and 1 EE (for 3 EE's total)
against Merfolk i board 3 path to exile
Goblins: 3 BEB, 3 COP red
FDDT: 2 Cannonist, 1 EE
TES: 3 BEB, 2 Cannonist, EE
Ichorid: Crypt, EE
Burn:3 COP Red, 3 BEB
Sligh: 3 COP Red, 3 BEB, 1 EE

So it does look like I'm throwing my Ichorid match up after all. i'll probably take out 1 cop for another tormod's or relic

[Ectoplasm]

What's wrong with actually running cards that are good in multiple matchups? Ditch the COP: Red and canonists and run Ajani and Engineered Plague instead, drop the blue blasts for negates?

That's what I'd do at least :) The cards you're running here are incredibly narrow and saying a COP: red works against both burn and sligh is kind of silly, as is saying canonist works against doomsday and TES (and don't forget ANT).

[whiteshepherdman]

The thing is, when you play red sligh and burn, half of your deck already doesn't matter to them game 1 cause they are just going to burn you to death. playing standstill a lot of the time is a mistake because its just going to give them a new hand. They have more burns than we have counters. I cast standstill only when i can turn 1 swords turn 2 standstill, or when the opponent has at least 2 or 3 cards more than me. In any case they just don't care if you counter their ball lightning or price of progress cause they'll just wait for more burn spells. In the late game, holding force, and negate sitting on 10 life i've still got the man kicked out of me by my little brother who after i counter his REB protected price, uses a forked fireblast and topdecks a lightning bolt to end the game. racing sligh in a damage battle is not going to turn out favorably. We play a ton of 4 drops, bombs but they hardly do anything unless you play humility which is awful in the mirror. Trust me, ive tried it too, my previous sb looked like this

2 Blue elemental blast
3 path to exile
3 negate
2 spell snare
2 crucible
1 EE
1 Relic
1 tormod's crypt

Now in this sb, the relevant cards which i could've used are EE, BEB, negate, path, spell snare, and Relic or tormods if you hate lavamancer or barbarian ring

My reasoning for COP red is that trading their spell with a counter is hardly fair imo. The deck thrives on unfair trades grabbing at least 2 creatures for 1 wrath, playing cyclers under standstill that give you better board position and maintaining card advantage

I'm not saying that my previous SB was perfect, its just that there needs to be a better answer for burn spells. negate hardly makes a difference. Ajani Goldmane would work but cop also works for me against goblins whereas i wouldn't side goldmane against goblins. I've also things like pulse of the fields but it isn't a foolproof solution. Since i don't play a wish list pulse isn't as useful, when i do run it, i have to commit too much mana resources into using it whereas goldmane would give me free lifegain. pulse is unreliable as they can always in response: proceed to burn your life totals away

My question: In your own sideboards, what would you use to stop the life loss from burn?