[Deck] UW(x) Landstill

[NQN]

My answer: Wish->Pulse, sometimes Ajani, mostly 1 CoP:Red +the tutor frm the wishboard.
Btw, are you srsly referring to a mono red burn deck with ball lightning and Fork? You will most likely never face that in rL... Your removal does more are the common RG sligh lists.

[whiteshepherdman]

Well Red sligh i mean. Goyf sligh is a piece of cake but red sligh with forks and plenty of burns, plus the unexpected ball lightnings can be annoying. I guess for you since you play wish, pulse is a decent plan but yes COP: Red. Mossivo was right though, 3 COP is too much. Maybe 2 in the spell snare slots? Though i like spell snare against CB and their goyfs

[mossivo1986]

Counterbalance wins the burn matchup as well as the zoo matchup.

[whiteshepherdman]

Thats true but we may still face burn decks so we should prepare for it right? with 3 vindicates main, 2 disks, and 3 EE i think cb isn't as great of a threat as burn is to me

[mossivo1986]

All i'm saying is that I think you should consider testing without vindicate in the maindeck and with counterbalance in the side. Using wish allows you to answer more threats and be universally better against a larger portion of the format.

I think this is the best advice I can help you with. Hope it helps
-Moss

[Hanni]

Goyf sligh is a piece of cake


think cb isn't as great of a threat as burn is to me

Wtf are you on?

[whiteshepherdman]

sligh is a lot harder to play against than goyf sligh, ball lightning> tarmogoyf against landstill. vindicate/ EE/ disk kills cb

Counterspell: UU
Force of Will: 5cc or blue card
spell snare: U

against fireblast--> fork ---> fork--> lightning bolt ---> ball lightning

hardly seems fair

I like mossivo's idea with CB although im not so sure since we have a lot of 4 drops and fewer 2-3 drops to hit their things

[Hanni]

I didn't mean that as a personal attack. I just don't understand your reasoning.

Goyf Sligh is just as bad as burn. The difference is that your StP's have value. Every other removal spell besides Path is not very good though, because they cost too much mana. They don't use creatures to win the game by themselves, just as extra damage producers. Which will, more often than not, do their intended job.

Otherwise, I know with my own personal Goyf Sligh list, there are 27 burn spells aimed to your dome.

CounterTop shuts Burn completely down, minus the few spells it misses here and there (Rift Bolt, Fireblast). Shuts down Goyf Sligh, too.

[rsaunder]

So I just T8'd the Jupiter Games event with a list I'm sure is going to be up in not too long. I think I'm going to make some fairly drastic changes in the list after today, largely following up on suspicions that I'd had since long before the tournament (wish being more of a crutch than anything else, among others). A real tournament report may be coming if anyone's interested enough in hearing about it. Let me know.

Without posting a lengthy list and tournament report (since I started drinking before I started typing, mostly) I'd just like to mention a few things:

1.) I played terribly and probably shouldn't have T8'd.
2.) P2E is a house. I think 3 in addition to 4 STP probably ought to be run in any aggro-esque meta (see: all of them).
3.) Cunning Wish underperformed all day
4.) The singleton tropical island for wish => kgrip was oddly solid
5.) Dust bowl was amazing every time I saw it.
6.) So was academy ruins.
7.) CB out of the board is good, but very skill intensive. More than I had to work with, in fact. I think 3 out of the board is still good but Geoff pointed out how I could have used it far better and I noticed a few times after the fact that I had made a mistake with it out. It's hard to get used to in Landstill, so practice up!
8.) Extirpate won me a match. I ran 3 because I was expecting a lot of ichorid and extirpate on belcher won me my second round.
9.) I miss FoF

Love,
-Chris

[Citrus-God]

So I just T8'd the Jupiter Games event with a list I'm sure is going to be up in not too long. I think I'm going to make some fairly drastic changes in the list after today, largely following up on suspicions that I'd had since long before the tournament (wish being more of a crutch than anything else, among others). A real tournament report may be coming if anyone's interested enough in hearing about it. Let me know.

Without posting a lengthy list and tournament report (since I started drinking before I started typing, mostly) I'd just like to mention a few things:

1.) I played terribly and probably shouldn't have T8'd.
2.) P2E is a house. I think 3 in addition to 4 STP probably ought to be run in any aggro-esque meta (see: all of them).
3.) Cunning Wish underperformed all day
4.) The singleton tropical island for wish => kgrip was oddly solid
5.) Dust bowl was amazing every time I saw it.
6.) So was academy ruins.
7.) CB out of the board is good, but very skill intensive. More than I had to work with, in fact. I think 3 out of the board is still good but Geoff pointed out how I could have used it far better and I noticed a few times after the fact that I had made a mistake with it out. It's hard to get used to in Landstill, so practice up!
8.) Extirpate won me a match. I ran 3 because I was expecting a lot of ichorid and extirpate on belcher won me my second round.
9.) I miss FoF

Love,
-Chris

Just let me point this out, but Wish is only good if your sideboard is designed around it. Whether it be a classic 3 Negate, 3 Spell Snare + 5 toolbox cards or a super redundant sideboard like

1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Path to Exile
1 Wing Shards
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Counterspell
1 Spell Snare
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Fracturing Gust
2 Krosan Grip
1 Tsabo's Decree
1 Extirpate
3 Negate

But since nobody else but me plays like that and boards Wish targets in for redundancy sake, I wont further on how Wish boards are the shit and all, mainly because I'm still testing it. But if I were to play with Wish boards at all, it will be like that.

But the problem I have is incorporating both SDT/Counterbalance with Cunning Wish. From just testing, I believe you need to pick one or the other. Last time I tested Counterbalance, it's been very promising. For my later builds I will be tampering with, I will be testing Counterbalance. I believe it will free up a lot of space in the sideboard and maindeck. I think a rough sketch of what I'm thinking about using is


// Mana 25
2 Eternal Dragon
1 Academy Ruins
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Windswept Heath
4 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Forest
2 Plains
2 Island


// Spells 36
3 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
2 Fact or Fiction
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Wrath of God
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Decree of Justice
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant


// Sideboard 15
4 Counterbalance
2 Hydroblast
2 Blue Elemental Blast
4 TARMOGOYF!!!!
3 Krosan Grip


So that's a test build so far. It's a fairly standard build, but who knows, it might be better with the addition of Top in the maindeck. Although, I might test something similar to Hanni's build with maindeck Vindicate instead of those awful Oblivion Rings (his deck is sweet, but ORing is just such a shitty card).

[Omega]

PAth to Exile in a very aggro meta could be good (see Zoo, Goyf Sligh and Merfolk/elfes). Most of those decks can run out of gas fairly easily.

That said, in a diverse Meta with Canadian, NO/CB/top.deck, aggro, combo, control (I felt my tournament today was very diverse), you are better off with a 4 STP 2-3 Wrath of God 2-3 EE

Cunning wish is definately one of the most powerful tool, in my opinion. Unfortunately, we only have 15 slots to abuse it. But you will never have 15 instant cards in the sb, almost never.

Currently :
1 tormod's crypt, 2 Relic of Progenitus : Ichorid mainly, but they arent played much. PRobably the weakest card in my SB.
1 Extirpate : Can randomly win the game. Wasteland on TRopical island, extirpate Tropical, and there, Canadian can't win anymore!
1 Pulse of the Fields : MVP all day against aggro, burn. Once you can stabilize, your cands advantage should win the game. (Most aggro, burn deck work on top deck. You have the advantage in topdeck with alot of cards that can generate huge CA)
1 Dismantling blow : Today, it wasn'T wished alot. But it is always useful.
2 Negate : Turning Cunning wish into counterspell is good
2 ajani goldmane : Zoo and aggro and burn being somewhat bad MU, I felet those 2 planeswalkers were needed. Plus, in the mirror, they can come in handy.
3 meddling mage : Combo. Its either MM or CB. I feel CB isn't the right choice, but we need to test it more
1 path to exile : Can be useful when you need a quick removal
1 wrath of god. I play 2 MD. I need 1 more for aggro

[gustha]

Vampire Hexmage BB
Creature - Vampire Shaman Uncommon(!!!)
First strike
Sacrifice Vampire Hexmage: Remove all counters from target permanent.
_________________________________________________________
Killing Elspeth for BB is a good thing... (not ofc for UWb landstill...) Another thing to snare?

[Citrus-God]

Vampire Hexmage BB
Creature - Vampire Shaman Uncommon(!!!)
First strike
Sacrifice Vampire Hexmage: Remove all counters from target permanent.
_________________________________________________________
Killing Elspeth for BB is a good thing... (not ofc for UWb landstill...) Another thing to snare?

I dont think Planeswalkers use counters... Loyalty is a completely different thing altogether, I think.

[jazzykat]

But they're loyalty counters?

[Jak]

I dont think Planeswalkers use counters... Loyalty is a completely different thing altogether, I think.

Nah, they're Loyalty Counters. This is what someone (MaRo?) said would be the creature that sacs to destroy 'walkers.

[rsaunder]

Here’s a brief write up of yesterday, because I had a few people get in touch with me and request one (thanks guys!)
The list:
1 humility
2 WoG
3 EE
4 STP
3 SS
2 CS
4 FOW
3 SDT
3 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
1 Jace
2 Wish
2 Decree
2 Els
1 P2E
4 Strand
2 Delta
4 tundra
1 sea
1 scrub
1 trop
3 Plains
2 Island
3 factory
1 dust bowl
1 academy ruins
1 tolaria west
SB:
3 extirpate
3 Plague
3 CB
2 P2E
1 Kgrip
1 E. tutor
1 negate
1 pulse

First things first, a few explanations:
@1x Trop: Besides the SB Kgrip, I wanted a way to kill planeswalkers. That’s really it, I went wish=>grip once to blow up a CB but that was really it.

@1x P2E: I was expecting agro and merfolk, as well as dredge (with its recent success) so bumping this MB gave me room to up the exirprate count post-board.

@3x Extirpate: I wanted something that would work in a few matchups, and this was a good wish target against control and got sided in against combo. So I upped the count. This won me a game against combo, but didn’t do anything else all day. I think having the hate not involve a splash color is fairly important.
@24 Lands: I don’t know why, but I expected thrash. Meh, poor metagaming. I sided out tolaria west quite a few times.
@3/2 Basic Split: I didn’t have the land slots to run 3/3, and I mostly want to run off of 1 island and 2 plains. Therefore, plains are more important (and harder to fetch).

@SB CB: The jury’s still out.

Before I begin, I’d like to say a sincere “I’m sorry” for not remembering ANYONE’S names. I’m terrible with them, that’s all there is to it. Much love to all of my opponents.
Round 1: ThatkidyouHate with 5c CB control-thing
I hate playing this guy round one. I’ve lost twice not to magus of the moon, but at least I know what to expect. Game one went the way I wanted it to, I kept threats off the board and Elspeth got there. Game 2 I made an amazing number of play errors including forgetting I blew up his counterbalance and paid 6 mana into an EE@2. That’s a product of being hella out of practice and not paying attention, more than anything. I stabilize at one or two life thanks to ruins+EE and a fat decree gets there.

2-0 (1-0)
Round 2: Some nice dude with SI/Belcher
Before game 1 we discuss what we’re playing and he talks through his bluff. I have a good idea what he’s playing before we start. I keep a hand with a spell snare and some hate and think “okay, I’ll draw a FOW soon or stick UU for counterspell.” Turn 4 rolls around and he tries to cast a belcher. I brainstorm having drawn at through at least 18/20 cards and don’t see the FOW. Game 2!
Game 2 I get lucky and land a CB which blindflips at 1 before I really take control of the game. I understand that had I not gotten that flip, I’da been toast.
Game 3 I board in P2E’s for his xantid swarms and it works well. This game went more smoothly with less lucksacking involved. I extirpate his belcher that had been countered, which is the top card of his library. He scoops soon after.

4-1 (2-0)

Round 3: Another nice dude playing Ug merfolk with MB needles

Game 1 I open land, top. He goes land, needle. Must be nice… I see my 1-of P2E which scares him and I keep him out of the game. Elspeth gets there.
Game 2 goes about the same, I had to dig for a bit to get a kill, but when it gets there, it gets there.

6-1 (3-0)
Round 4 against Bryant
He knows my decklist card-for-card, I know his. He’s scared of CB out of the board, I’m scared of storm combo. Game 1 I get duressed/silenced into oblivion. Game 2 he duresses out my CB after mulling to 5 and then just outright wins. F*ck.

6-3 (3-1)
Round 5 against another nice dude playing Zoo.

I pull game 1 out of my ass at about 2 life. Game 2 goes to him, I got a bad land draw and saw not enough spot removal. Vexing shusher’s some good against me. Game 3 I made a play error not forcing a goyf and it cost me the game. Sorry about being a bad sport about this one man, that’s not me. Much love.

7-5 (3-2)

Round 6 against yet another nice dude running what seemed to be Eva green with deeds.

Game 1 I spell eat a hymn turn 1 but keep a couple lands and a couple counters. I snare his turn 2 sinkhole and then resolve a standstill. I keep his threats off the board and that’s the game. Game 2 I brainstorm into a FoW to handle his turn 2 sinkhole and then counter the rest of his disruption. A fat decree goes the distance. Really nice guy, I hope he did well in the side event!
9-5 (4-2)
I was game to split the T8 straight up, since I knew I’d be playing Bryant, but alas, such was not to be. I lost game 1 (surprise!). Game 2, I mull down and go turn 1 top, turn 2 CB. Bryant manages to go off without 1cc spells and almost kills himself on an AdN. He flips at 1 life and sees a chrome mox which gets him the win. Must be nice…
After the fact, Geoff came and talked to me about how I could have played CB better. I should have let Silence resolve and just relied on CB+top, I might have won that game.

All in all, I had a great day and got a lot of practice and experience, met some nice people, and even made about $50 on the day even taking in to account gas and food. I walked away with 3 altered FBB seas (traded for non-inked FBB seas), 4 jap foil DCI P2E’s, another foil duress, and $20.

Props: Eli for holding yet another awesome tournament
Bryant for solid play all day
all of my opponents for being super nice
Landstill for being good enough to T8 despite my errors

Slops: Quack for not making T8 with me
Bryant. Dammit.
Not splitting T8
Play errors

Peace!
-chris

[Hanni]

I've never really been a fan of Cunning Wish. If you say they were underperforming for you all day, I'd recommend dropping them for 1 Brainstorm and 1 Top.

And fit the 4th Counterbalance in the sideboard somehow, you really want the max 4 for so many matchups.

[rsaunder]

I've never really been a fan of Cunning Wish. If you say they were underperforming for you all day, I'd recommend dropping them for 1 Brainstorm and 1 Top.

And fit the 4th Counterbalance in the sideboard somehow, you really want the max 4 for so many matchups.
I hate to say I'm gonna cut a top after this, but I'm gonna cut a top. Real car advantage is where it's at, and I'm pretty convinced that FoF is the way to go. I may very well add in another top as draw spell #11. Here's what I'm going to be working with now:

4 Stp
3 WoG
2 EE
3 Vindicate
3 SS
3 CS
4 FoW
3 Standstill
2 SDT
3 BS
2 FoF
2 Elspeth
2 Decree
1 E. Dragon
3 Delta
3 Strand
4 Tundra
1 sea
1 scrub
1 swamp
2 island
2 plains
3 Factory
3 [utilityland]wasteland/3 set
SB:
3 Relic
3 Plague
3 P2E
4 CB
2 Pulse
1 Top (card #16 to work with CB, This may get fit in MB or SB somewhere, not sure yet)

EDIT: I think for the 3 utility land slots, it might be 2x Dust bowl, 1x Academy ruins
EDIT#2: -2 [Relic/Plague/CB], +1 top, +1 E. tutor might be an interesting switch

[Ranarion]

Last week i played against someone with a GBW-Rock build. Preboard I won every game without any problems. But after sideboarding he played Choke and Extirpate and now HE won every single game.
My list was:
Lands (23):
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
4 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
3 Island
2 Plains
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins
1 Dust Bowl

Spells (37):
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Wrath of God
2 Humility
3 Spell Snare
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Brainstorm
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Standstill
2 Jace Beleren
2 Decree of Justice
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Sideboard(15):
3 Negate
3 Meddling Mage
2 Path to Exile
4 Relic of Progenitus
3 Counterbalance

I only boarded -2 Humility and +2 PtE.
How do you play against these cards (especially Choke which ruined every game for me)? Or am I the only one who has problems with this card?

[Citrus-God]

I hate to say I'm gonna cut a top after this, but I'm gonna cut a top. Real car advantage is where it's at, and I'm pretty convinced that FoF is the way to go. I may very well add in another top as draw spell #11. Here's what I'm going to be working with now:

4 Stp
3 WoG
2 EE
3 Vindicate
3 SS
3 CS
4 FoW
3 Standstill
2 SDT
3 BS
2 FoF
2 Elspeth
2 Decree
1 E. Dragon
3 Delta
3 Strand
4 Tundra
1 sea
1 scrub
1 swamp
2 island
2 plains
3 Factory
3 [utilityland]wasteland/3 set
SB:
3 Relic
3 Plague
3 P2E
4 CB
2 Pulse
1 Top (card #16 to work with CB, This may get fit in MB or SB somewhere, not sure yet)

EDIT: I think for the 3 utility land slots, it might be 2x Dust bowl, 1x Academy ruins
EDIT#2: -2 [Relic/Plague/CB], +1 top, +1 E. tutor might be an interesting switch

Dont run Dust Bowl, they suck against Merfolk.

Dont run Relic of Progenitus, there are definitely better SB options out there. Like, you could run a 4th Plague, or run Perish to fend off Thresh and Survival. Heck, even CoP: Red is beneficial in this slot: especially with all the Shushers and Grips running around, PoP is going to hit you hard in the face.

[gustha]

Dont run Dust Bowl, they suck against Merfolk.

Dont run Relic of Progenitus, there are definitely better SB options out there. Like, you could run a 4th Plague, or run Perish to fend off Thresh and Survival. Heck, even CoP: Red is beneficial in this slot: especially with all the Shushers and Grips running around, PoP is going to hit you hard in the face.
And how is one supposed to manage gy.decks without gy hate?

[Hanni]

I dropped my Relics out of the board for Path to Exile. 8 StP effects for Ichorid's (and Narcomoeba's) slows them down a ton. I also bring in Meddling Mage, to name Cabal Therapy, which also slows them down a ton.

PtE and Mage are good against other matchups as well, where Relic only ever comes in against Ichorid. There are no other graveyard strategies that require Relic. Counterbalance > Relic against Aggro Loam, for example.

[dal9ll]

:really:

Off the top of my head, some things Relic is a good SB card against:
-Ichorid (as previously stated)
-anything with Goyf
-anything with IGG
-Ceph Breakfast
-dredge.dec
-Cabal Therapy/other Flashback cards
-Unearth (Hellspark Elemental?)
-the newly unbanned Entomb
-recursion effects like Academy Ruins, Volrath's Stronghold, Crucible of Worlds
-the list goes on.

Anyway I think its foolish to not run ANY gy hate in the SB. I mean, theres PLENTY of effective anti-GY hate in Legacy, not to mention the myriad of gy.decks there are in Legacy right now. Why not run anti-gy hate unless you NEVER ever face gy.decks?

And my god, Im getting pretty dern sick of hearing so much about Counterbalance.

[gustha]

Depending on what build I play (classic UWx landstill, uwb speedstill, UWr) I board in relic in the mirror match, against ant, combo in general (if playing sculler), black based (to avoid extirpate), aggroloam (not sure if cb is far superior here), stax, astral slide, survival,and obviously ichorid. If I run black I also run 3/4 sb plagues and 5/7 MD stp effects (i play no wrath), no cb and no MM (if not playing classic UWx), and I never felt relic was not needed. The same is true for UWr with sb cb. How do you guys feel without gy hate?

[Citrus-God]

And how is one supposed to manage gy.decks without gy hate?

Counterbalance.

And if you're concerned about Ichorid, you're better off just losing that round rather than just dedicating sideboard slots for it. Also, I agree with Hanni, Path to Exiles are alright against Ichorid as well..

Also, tech against Ichorid: Wasteland + Factory to remove bridges is sweet tech. Just sayin'.

[rsaunder]

The most important slot for CB to hit in the combo matchup is 1cc, and relic fills that while helping by shutting off IGG. It even cantrips in that matchup if it's gonna be useless which is something you can't say for STP or other removal which may or may not be useful. IN THEORY it should work, but it's been less than a day since I made the switch and I haven't had time to test it. Just out of curiosity though, why is everyone debating this now? Moss has run relics in every list since forever.

@Citrus: It's not going to be a great matchup but if you can run other things in addition to the STP/whatever effects you're relying on while complimenting other matchups, why not?

[Hanni]

In my testing, 0cc was always the best spot for CB to hit, which is rather cool when you run lots of lands (23 in my build).

[rsaunder]

In my testing, 0cc was always the best spot for CB to hit, which is rather cool when you run lots of lands (23 in my build).

Well... right, but other than that you can't expect to hit 2cc consistently so if you can shut off 1cc and 0cc with SDT+CB you're in damn good shape.

[Citrus-God]

The most important slot for CB to hit in the combo matchup is 1cc, and relic fills that while helping by shutting off IGG. It even cantrips in that matchup if it's gonna be useless which is something you can't say for STP or other removal which may or may not be useful. IN THEORY it should work, but it's been less than a day since I made the switch and I haven't had time to test it. Just out of curiosity though, why is everyone debating this now? Moss has run relics in every list since forever.

Yes, but if you hit 0cc or 2cc, you should also be in good shape in that match up.

Also, I understand Relic being good and all, but it's nothing short of amazing for most match ups. When you could board something better in, you board in Relic.


@Citrus: It's not going to be a great matchup but if you can run other things in addition to the STP/whatever effects you're relying on while complimenting other matchups, why not?

Because there are greater concerns, like Zoo boarding in Chokes, PoPs, Shushers. Like, if you're concerned with Aggro Loam, why would you board Relics in when you could board in BEB? BEB is also amazing against Zoo and Goblins.

If you're concerned about Ichorid.... I say just rely on tight play to get yourself out of that match up.

[Hanni]

Relic is cool in the fact that it can come in for dead cards in matchups where Relic can at least be a cantrip. Otherwise, there's no graveyard strategies besides Ichorid that I bring it in against. Counterbalance shuts down Loam much more effectively. Against Goyf's, I'd sooner board in Path to Exile. Against Survival, I'd bring in extra Oblivion Rings (or Vindicate if I was in black). Seriously, the only matchup Relic is worth bringing in for as graveyard hate is Ichorid, where we have more versatile options to bring in vs them (again, I bring in Path to Exile and Meddling Mage). But hey, that's just my perception on the issue.

[Elf_Ascetic]

Ok, I played two tournaments lately. One went 2-1-3, what would be 5-1 if the rounds were 2 hours.. This drawstreak inspired me to make the deck faster, with Wastelands and a third Elspeth. I played this list to a 5-1-1 finish (ID in the last round) yesterday. 85 people showed up, so it was a pretty big tournament.

4 Strand
2 Delta
4 Tundra
1 Sea
1 Scrubland
2 Island
2 Plains
4 Factory
3 Wasteland

4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
2 Wish
2 Top

4 Force of Will
3 CS
3 SSnare

4 StP
3 EE
2 WoG
1 Moat

1 Dragon
1 Decree
3 Elspeth
2 Jace

SB
3 Relic
3 Path to Exile
4 Engineered Plague
1 Return to Dust
1 Pulse
1 Extirpate
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Crucible of Worlds

Brief write-up:
R1: 2-0 against Agroloam, managed to manascrew him G1, G2 the Relics did all the work. G1 very funny board: 5 land and an Elspeth against completely nothing.
R2: 2-0 against ANT. Yes, it IS possible.
R3: 0-2 against ANT. Teammate, better player, the matchup as it should be.
R4: 2-0 against Angel stax. Again, manascrewed him G1, and rode to victory on the back of an Elspeth in game 2.
R5: 2-0 against GW Creature.deck. Fairly easy, Elspeth was great, as ever.
R6: 2-0 against Dreadstill. Elspeth > Dreadstilll, nuff said.
R7: ID against Goblins.
Q: 0-2 against Goblins. Played standstill over 1 fanatic, and had to break it, two turns too late. Playerror. Game two, I gambled on the following hand: Plague, Moat, Counterspell, Elspeth, Crucible and 2 lands. He duressed Plague away, and I never reached WW. Luckely for him, because he had no answers to a Moat.

Cards of the day: double Jace, triple Elspeth and triple Wasteland. Better than I thought they would be!

For now, I wouldn't change a thing to either Main- or Sideboard, though I'll be testing some CB Landstill. Questions? Shoot!

[Ectoplasm]

Congrats :D Looks like a pretty solid list, except for the fact I'd play -1 factory +1 ruins. I still don't like the CB/top approach but meh :/

Also, on relic, don't forget it bends canadian thresh over and violates it since it keeps all their 'threats' 1/1 and 0/1

[Hanni]

I still don't like the CB/top approach but meh :/

I could write a detailed explanation why I think it's perfect in Landstill and why I think it's so powerful. At the end of the day though, those that are willing to run it will and those that won't, well, won't.


Also, on relic, don't forget it bends canadian thresh over and violates it since it keeps all their 'threats' 1/1 and 0/1

My U/W Counterbalance Landstill list already bends Canadian Thresh over. I never brought Relic in for this matchup. However, I've not tested this matchup with other versions of Landstill, so it may be the case that those versions don't, and that Relic is house against them. I honestly don't know.

[rsaunder]

Relic is cool in the fact that it can come in for dead cards in matchups where Relic can at least be a cantrip. Otherwise, there's no graveyard strategies besides Ichorid that I bring it in against. Counterbalance shuts down Loam much more effectively. Against Goyf's, I'd sooner board in Path to Exile. Against Survival, I'd bring in extra Oblivion Rings (or Vindicate if I was in black). Seriously, the only matchup Relic is worth bringing in for as graveyard hate is Ichorid, where we have more versatile options to bring in vs them (again, I bring in Path to Exile and Meddling Mage). But hey, that's just my perception on the issue.

Just out of curiosity, what does mage chant against ichorid? I wouldn't think to bring them in.

EDIT: Also, I've never been worried about the tempo thresh matchup. It takes some tight play early on, but you play enough land to make their wastes not hurt too much and SDT helps with land drops. It's not an auto-win, but it's definitely favorable.

[Ectoplasm]

It's not only good against c. thresh, it's also a house vs any sligh/zoo list with lavamancers since it both shrinks goyfs and makes their mancers worthless, loam for obvious reasons and more random shit as well.

I run 2 in my side, personally, and I've always been glad to have it around :)

[Hanni]

Just out of curiosity, what does mage chant against ichorid? I wouldn't think to bring them in.

I replace dead cards with them. They chant Cabal Therapy, so they lose a sac outlet for Zombie tokens (slowing them down) and also so they can't rape my hand. They also sit on the table preventing Ichorid's from swinging in for fear of losing their Bridges. It's not the best option, but since they're already in my board and they do slow them down, I bring them in.


It's not only good against c. thresh, it's also a house vs any sligh/zoo list with lavamancers since it both shrinks goyfs and makes their mancers worthless, loam for obvious reasons and more random shit as well.


I'd rather have Counterbalance for Goyf Sligh and Path to Exile for Zoo.

[Citrus-God]

Why would you board Relics in? It doesnt do anything against Burn, just good against Mancers (which are weak against you) and Goyf (which everything in your deck kills).

[whiteshepherdman]

Since i'm not running top my gut feeling tells me its better that i run cop red over cb against sligh, plus its helpful against goblins too

[NQN]

that may be true, but in fact it isn´t since you just have to run top(best card etc.). sorry dude :cry:

[rsaunder]

I've got a few minutes in between class right now, so I thought I'd toss these ideas up for some brainstorming. I posted a list with vindicate and top a page or so back after my tournament report and I've been working with that a bit. I'm not 100% sold on vindicate, but I feel like that's completely a meta concern. Before I start with variants, I'm just going to toss up the base list I'll be working with, so I don't have to post multiple complete lists:

Base deck:
3 Spell Snare
4 FOW
2 counterspell
3 standstill
2 SDT
2 FoF
3 brainstorm
3 WoG
4 STP
2 EE
2 DoJ
2 Elspeth
23 land=55 slots spoken for

My first thought was simply a vindicate-still list, the above with

3 vindicate
1 SDT
1 Spell Snare

Probably geared more towards control and combo, because of vindicate. After playing last weekend though, I think in certain metagames (coughZOOcough) P2E disserves a couple MB slots. Thus, I've been working with this build geared more towords an aggro metagame:

2 P2E
1 EE
1 SDT
1 spell snare

My other thoughts involve what pieces of the MB are necessary to work with the SB, namely SDT. CB+Top is great combo hate when it gets online, but when it doesn't CB's useless by it's self. The combo player will bait it and as soon as you have a 3cc or something equally useless on top they'll go off. It's good, but it's not infallable. Even when it's out it takes some mana to keep up and doesn't provide a clock. I'm of the frame of mind that hate bears might make the cut over CB, just because of the clock they provide. Thus, SDT isn't an auto 3-of or an auto 2-of yet imo. Especially with the "aggro geared" removal package, the SB for a build like this is wide open, possibly fitting in 6+slots for combo hate if you expect to see a lot of it.

Before I have to go to sociology, I've been running this manabase:

3 strand
3 delta
4 tundra
1 sea
1 scrub
1 swamp
3 island
3 plains
4 factory

7 basics seems to be >format right now, and honestly factory's been the most consistently "worthwhile" colorless land in the deck. This is sort of an experimental manabase to work with the vindicate package, chances are that if I were to cut them, the swamp would go with. I really like how consistently I can pull basics so far and how the 4 factories are working, I haven't missed the utility lands all that much in any matchup aside from the occasional merfolk matchup where a dust bowl might have taken out 2+ mutavaults. Uncommon, but it's come up.

Anyway, I have class so I'll cut this off here. Thoughts?

[Shawn]

2 P2E

After seeing this (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=28038) deck in action at the GP, and doing some minor playtesting with it, I also want to squeeze in a pair of Paths to the main. I play two in the board and always seem to board them in. I've haven't come to a solid conclusion on what to cut from my list; I don't want any less than 3 Decree, 2 Elspeth, and 3 sweepers.


7 basics seems to be >format right now

I run seven as well. Here's my manabase:

4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
3 Island
3 Plains
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Wasteland

15 blue sources and 14 white. Seven basics have been fantastic for me. After Zendikar, I plan on playing 2 Marsh Flats and 1 Delta, since white producing lands are more important against decks that attack landstill's manabase, and I only play two Counterspells so UU is less relevant. When I've been playtesting recently I've had a bunch of situations where I looked at a Delta in mine hand and said "I wish this found a basic Plains". Also, I only play B spells in the board, which is why I only have two lands that produce B. I have a total of 9 black sources, which is usually what most people run.

Has anyone tested Ravenous Trap as a Cunning Wish target? I'm really intrigued by it:

Ravenous Trap
2:b::b:
Instant - Trap Uncommon
If an opponent had three or more cards put into his or her graveyard from anywhere this turn, you may pay 0 rather than pay Ravenous Trap's mana cost.
Exile all cards from target player's graveyard.

It seems better than Extirpate against Dredge and aggro loam, and it doesn't force you to fetch a land that produces B.

[Citrus-God]

Ravenous Trap is an amazing Wish target. Also, with the addition of Top, we can hide Ravenous Traps on Top of our library, protecting it from cards like Unmask and Cabal Therapy. Of course, we only need one. Running three wishes is more than enough to compensate for it against a deck like Ichorid. Also, not having to fetch a black source using a fetchland is another huge plus.

[RogueMTG]

I could write a detailed explanation why I think it's perfect in Landstill and why I think it's so powerful. At the end of the day though, those that are willing to run it will and those that won't, well, won't.
...

Honestly this would probably help me out a lot. I've just recently decided to pick up the deck and after reading huge chunks of this thread I'm still very on the fence about which direction to take my build.

Unfortunately I'm not sure there's a solid answer to: "Should I run: Vindicate, Cunning Wish, CB/Top, or some combination?" Aside from maybe trying each of them out.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but from my understanding most people either run CB in the side or they run Cunning Wish main, but not usually both, and CB main deck is a rarity?

[Hanni]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but from my understanding most people either run CB in the side or they run Cunning Wish main, but not usually both, and CB main deck is a rarity?

Correct.


Honestly this would probably help me out a lot.

I've actually been asked by someone to make a Primer for the deck, because it plays so much drastically from other Landstill lists, and it's matchup percentages are significantly different. Considering Ultimate Walker has its own thread, this seems justifiable. So if you can wait a little bit while I write up a Primer and post U/W Counterbalance Landstill as a new entity, you'll have a detailed explanation of the deck, as well as alot of other content to include.

I've been piloting the deck for about 6 months now, so I should have enough data to compile a solid Primer. The only issue is time; I'm a self contracted salesman for insurance and timeshare so I work alot. I hope to have the Primer up as soon as possible.

[Citrus-God]

Since i'm not running top my gut feeling tells me its better that i run cop red over cb against sligh, plus its helpful against goblins too

Also, just wanted to say, CoP: Red is getting shittier cuz Pridemages and Grips make it look like crap. That's one thing that makes Counterbalance better than CoP: Red.

[Hanni]

Everyone, please disregard the following post. This is a reply to Mossivo. The PM would not allow me to send more than 5000 characters and this is 13000 something characters long. Once Mossivo has read this and replied to me in PM, I will delete this post. I did not include quote tags in this post, so some of it will not make sense to you. Then again, it's not supposed to. Everyone but Mossivo, please disregard the following post.

I'll try to answer the personal questions and limit the deck related questions in this PM. I'll address in greater detail the deck related questions in my primer, which are good points that I'm glad you brought up. I will use those questions to strengthen the primer. If you have more of those, feel free to PM me those so I have more information to include in the primer.

To begin.

First off, I've played other decklists of Landstill as well. So I'm not limited in scope to only playing one version of Landstill. What I was getting at was that I've played the exact same maindeck for 6 months now, so it's not like I've only had 1 week playing it one way, then changing it to another way. I've got concrete playtesting results from that specific configuration, which was my point. If 6 months isn't enough time to develop something, then I don't know what is.

I personally talk over decks with members here on The Source as well. I was not discrediting you about Landstill, nor your teamates. However, you are discrediting me.

Just because you've used Counterbalance in the sideboard, or have tried it in the past, does not change the fact that you haven't used it in the shell I'm using it in. This may be a reason why your perception of it is slightly different than mine.

Why are you now attacking me on tournament results? I don't have the means to go to lots of tournaments to attempt to place. Regardless, I've seen horrible decklists (and this doesn't apply to just Landstill) make Top 8 and I've seen great decklists near the bottom of tournament ladders. This isn't always a direct representation of the decklist itself, but rather takes into account multiple other factors like pilot playskill, matchup pairings, so on and so forth. The more impacting statement a particular decklist can make, IMO, is making Top 8 (or close to the top in large tournaments), with horrible matchup pairings throughout the entire tournament. Again, there is still playskill involved even in that scenario, so basing it purely on the strength of the particular decklist is still difficult to determine simply off of tournament results.

The difference between experience and ideology does not have to directly corrolate to tournaments.

Ideology means someone thinks about something, writes it down on paper, and thinks it looks good on paper and should work out well in theory.

Experience means that the deck has been played against live opponent's over and over in ones spare time enough that common Tier 1 and Tier 2 matchups have been played. Especially when multiple different opponent's are being tested against with the same decks, so that it cannot be determined that certain matchups were won/lost because of the opponent's playskill. This does not need to be done solely through tournament play to be a real representation.

I can agree that developing better playskill is done by playing in high stakes settings like important tournaments, but actual deckbuilding is just as effectively done through extensive playtesting against a wide variety of opponent's using common Tier 1 and Tier 2 decklists over and over, tournament or not. When Landstill can consistently 2-0 matchups like Aggro Loam and Burn against various opponent's, it must be more than simply "I got lucky" or "my competition doesn't know what the hell they are doing." Think in terms of sports for a second; playtesting is to practice as tournaments are to the game. You don't get better at the sport only when playing in the game, you get better at the sport by going to lots of practices.

I don't care if you think I'm making a Landstill look alike or not. If it has manlands and it has Standstill, it's a Landstill variant. Not all posted variants are any good, but don't simply dismiss something just because you don't want to accept radical change.

Now we have the deck related questions, which I'll try to keep limited for now:

Yes, those matchups are improved. So are many other matchups.

I fail to see how Merfolk now becomes punted, considering I do very well against Merfolk. Counterbalance itself doesn't hit two of their lords and Wakethrasher if they run it, but it hits everything else. The only foil is Vial, which is typically a must counter or must O Ring preboard, and of course postboard there are more answers. I'll address this matchup more in the primer.

Goblins preboard is not improved by Counterbalance. There are a few targets for it, but for the most part they are bundled up at the 3cc spot. However, the U/W manabase that I run makes up for my deficencies in many of the matchups where Counterbalance isn't so hot, like Goblins and Dragon Stompy, which does in fact improve those matchups. Again, Vial is something you want to answer quickly. Otherwise, the deck has enough removal and Decree/Elspeth to handle Goblins. Not so hot preboard, sure, but postboard with BEB and PtE it's a serious beating. More on this matchup in the primer too.

I 100% disagree with you about Threshold. I rape Threshold. Countless amount of times does this happen.

Tempo Thresh is improved by the U/W manabase and their low threat density is met by a large number of removal spells. If they don't tempo you early, you win by being the control deck. Considering that I run a more stable manabase and 4 Brainstorm/Top, I'm able to reach enough land to play through their Stifles/Wastes/Dazes. Counterbalance is huge here because if I resolve CounterTop, that's typically game, barring them topdecking into a bounce spell (since they cannot cast cantrips). More on this matcup later, as I'll go over it more.

(Factory and WoG answer Goose, btw)

CounterTop Thresh is again, a beating. This deck runs cards out of their CB range, where most of their cards are in my CB range. CounterTop is able to be played through and I also run answers to it. They play a slower game and I have a stronger control suite. The biggest bomb they have against me is CounterTop, and I'm fighting fire with fire. If they resolve a CounterTop, it makes the matchup harder for me; if I resolve a CounterTop, it's usually game. Postboard they have Grips, I have O Rings, which sure, Grip is better. But alot of times even they do Grip my Counterbalance, they are too far out of the game to come back. I generate far more card advantage than they do. I won't go into this in any more detail than that because that's already too long of an answer; you'll get more in the primer.

I never said Dreadstill was simply an oops deck, I said that it has a disruptable I-win combo. It makes use of Counterbalance well because it protects the combo, but does not mean without it that it's not disruptable and that other decks don't have just as much to gain from running Counterbalance. I'll address this deck (Dreadstill) more later.

Decks like Thresh and Dreadstill don't run Counterspell because they curve out early and don't intend on hitting enough land drops or sitting back to be able to have UU open to cast Counterspell. That's why Daze is good here. Flip this around for a moment; if Daze is so good in those decks, why don't we run it? Exactly. Landstill a control deck and they are aggro/control. We are able to leave UU open to counter things, we play draw go when the board is clear. They don't. Don't try to compare why Counterspell is good/bad in Landstill to why it's good/bad in Threshold; that's comparing apples to oranges, not apples to apples. That is absolutely a piss pour argument.

You can compare my Counterspell to Thresh's Tarmogoyf all you want. Landstill is designed as a reactive deck, not a proactive one. That's why we have Counterspell for that Goyf, but that's also why we have Swords to Plowshares for that Goyf. They play threats, we counter with answers. Generally, we have more answers than they have threats, and that's why it's an effective strategy. One of the major reasons this works is because, a) we run more answers than they play threats, and b) we have enough card advantage to power through their answers to our answers. Without Counterbalance they play a 1-for-1 game while we have multiple avenues to get 2-for-1 (or greater) trades.

Spell Snare can cause tempo loss, sure. It's going to do the same thing to other Landstill lists too. You're acting like my dependance on 2cc is dramatically higher than everyone else. If you play 4 Standstill 3 Counterspell, you're running 5 less 2cc spells. The question of how much tempo I lose is relevant to the gamestate. Considering that the way Threshold wins (CounterTop aside) is through creatures, and that none of my creature removal is 2cc, I don't think the loss of tempo is quite that serious. I mean, if I Counterspell their Nimble Mongoose or Rhox War Monk and they Spell Snare me, you're Spell Snare (i.e Spell Snare run by you, Landstill player) wasn't doing shit anyways. At least my Counterbalance (if it's in play) can counter their Spell Snare on my Counterspell.

This deck is Landstill. Of course the aggro matchups are good matchups. If they are 1cc-2cc centric like Goyf Sligh and Zoo, Counterbalance is great. If they are Vial based Tribal, I bring in an assload of removal from the sideboard. If they are red based aggro, BEB is there; remember that my sideboard consists of 1 WoG, 2 ORing, 4 PtE, and 4 BEB. The only matchups where Counterbalance isn't optimal against is Vial Tribal (Merfolk and Goblins), where Vial is bad vs any Landstill list regardless, and Merfolk does in fact have many cards in the 1cc and 2cc range.

Again, I'm also running the U/W manabase and 4 Brainstorm/Top (to dig for land and removal) to make up for Counterbalances mediocre-ness against Vial Tribal preboard (I purposely designed the deck to counteract flaws in other ways).

I'm not overloaded as badly on 2cc drops as you think, to need to over-protect against Daze, and regardless, I fail to see how 2cc drops are worse than 3cc drops like Cunning Wish and Vindicate or 4cc drops like Elspeth and WoG. That particular argument vs Counterbalance Landstill is just as relevant against other Landstill lists. In fact, I often to wait till I have 3 mana to drop Counterbalance if I see my opponent is playing blue, and I use my mana on turn 2 to either hold open UU to play Counterspell or do whatever... Daze on turn 2 Standstill is just as relevant as Daze on turn 2 Counterbalance anyway. I'll be humble though, since this is all a comparison with your Spell Snares anyway; yes, my turn 2 Counterspell/Counterbalance can be Daze'd if I try to Counterspell Goyf or resolve Counterbalance, where your Spell Snare is unmolested. Luckily, I do run StP and FoW.

(Keep in mind that my Counterbalances are simply replacing your Spell Snares... and I truly believe that the tempo you create off of Spell Snare is not worth the power trade off from my Counterbalance. Also keep in mind that Spell Snare only effects 2cc spells, which Counterbalance also handles in 2cc spells as well as 0cc, 1cc, 4cc, and sometimes 3cc or 5cc. So you saying Counterbalance is bad vs Goblins is no different than me telling you that Spell Snare is bad vs Goblins)

I'm not much worried about EE. Recurring EE is a different story, and I'll agree with you that it can be very problematic. Not gonna argue about that, you're right. It blows up my Decree and Elspeth tokens, my Counterbalances, and my O Rings. I don't see recurring EE that often and usually it takes so long for that lock to get setup that I've CounterTop lock'd and/or won the game before that happens (in the case of CounterTop lock, I realize that EE removes it; I mean that I'm so far ahead by that point that even removing the CounterTop lock doesn't bring them back into the game). Factory (+ Elspeth if possible) is my means of beating recurring EE. Or simply O Ring'ing it early if the opponent can't cast and pop it right away and does drop it early (happens once in a great while). Again, I agree with you here.

How is Counterbalance not universal? It answers all spells 0cc, 1cc, and 2cc... it sometimes answers 3cc, 4cc, and 5cc spells. Your Spell Snares answer 2cc spells. Your Vindicates can meet my O Rings since they fill the same role, and I could just as easily splash black to replace them but I have my reasoning for why I prefer a more consistent U/W manabase.

If you want me to answer why my deck is better than Threshold or Dreadstill, when all I'm doing is replacing Spell Snare with Counterbalance, I'm going to ask you the same damn question. Do you really think you benefit more from the tempo of Spell Snare than I do from the power of Counterbalance? What makes Spell Snare better in Landstill than it does in Tempo Thresh and often in Dreadstill? Almost every single question you keep asking me is applicable to every other Landstill list, not just mine. Do you not see the falacy in most of your arguments against Counterbalance?

I completely disagree with you when you say that both Threshold and Dreadstill have more answers for a larger variety of decks than my Landstill. Landstill is a control deck, and rather than running aggro to play beatdown, runs more control to answer a larger variety of decks. Again, this comes down to being one of those arguments that you are making that applies not only to my version of Landstill, but all Landstill, and is a very idiotic question in the first place.

You're looking at this the wrong way maybe.

What we have are some very small differences.

I believe Top is the best card in the deck, so I run 4. You probably run less and some other draw instead.

I had to slightly tweak my curve to accomodate Counterbalance, so a few numbers (like Counterspell being a 4-of) are set to accomodate this. This is also the reason I run 4 Standstill rather than 3 Standstill 1 Jace.

You believe Spell Snare > Counterbalance, I 100% disagree. I feel that Counterbalance is a powerhouse of a card and offers to Landstill everything Landstill wants; card advantage, repeatable countermagic, and a card that carries you straight from the mid game to the late game (and occasionally even from the early game to the late game). You feel that Spell Snare is necessary for early tempo to survive you into the mid game where you feel that you have adequate enough control elements to make it to the late game.

You can keep coming at me with objections/rebuttals all day, I'll keep coming back at you. If you wanna help me rather than hinder me, just ask relevant questions about the deck itself, particularly about certain cards or matchups so that I can add more, better, detailed info to my primer.

Anyways, don't take any of my reply as a personal attack. Hopefully this can spawn positive and productive innovation. And please, if you get the time to be able to do so, play my decklist for a little bit, even if it's just on MWS. I've played the Spell Snare versions and other versions of Landstill, and I think it would make for better discussions between the two of us if you could playtest my list, even for just a miniscule amount of time, as well. I appreciate it. =]

Everyone, please disregard the following post. This is a reply to Mossivo. The PM would not allow me to send more than 5000 characters and this is 13000 something characters long. Once Mossivo has read this and replied to me in PM, I will delete this post. I did not include quote tags in this post, so some of it will not make sense to you. Then again, it's not supposed to. Everyone but Mossivo, please disregard the following post.

[whiteshepherdman]

wow i actually read the whole thing. I have to agree that i think counterbalance can be pretty good in the proper variant of landstill. Even though it's been the engine for aggro control i believe that it can also be a powerful control piece for a pure control deck like landstill. I don't think spell snare and counterbalance are comparable though. I feel that spell snare is situational and can be used well against decks like merfolk with key 2 drops, thus hindering their tempo. Counterbalance on the other hand feels like a piece in a puzzle that's there to finally lock out the opponent, with wraths and other spells doing what counterbalance does not.

I think that there's a lot of potential for both versions of landstill to do well. They're just variants that do things differently but in the end we just want to win

[Atog]

Hanni, if you make primer for your u-w landstill, could you write some sideboarding plans against decks you usually see = tier 1 / some tier 2 decks. Thanks! :)

[Hanni]

@ whiteshepherdman

Counterbalance and Spell Snare are comparable. The spot in the deck that both are run in are competing spots; you don't run both.

Both have advantages and disadvantages. What needs to be determined are the pros for each and the cons, and which one has more pros and less cons. This is easier said than actually applied.

The biggest factor to consider here is what matchups does each help, and which matchup does each not help. For a quick example, Counterbalance improves Aggro Loam and Goyf/Sligh Burn. Spell Snare improves Merfolk and Threshold. But Spell Snare improves Goyf Sligh/Burn too, and Counterbalance improves Threshold too. This is when it gets tricky. If they both improve the matchup, which one improves it more? What matchups are more important to be improved than others?

I feel like, between a 2/3 game set, that my Merfolk matchup is awesome. For that, I don't see why maindeck Counterbalance is so bad. I feel like, without Counterbalance maindeck, that my Aggro Loam matchup in a 2/3 set is horrible. +1 for Counterbalance. (This is only 1 such example out of hundreds of examples.)

These kind of distinctions are very in depth, and cover way too much playing field to explain in only a little detail.

What I do know, is that throughout my playtesting, I've found greater success in maindeck Counterbalance than anything else I've ever tried. I've found that U/W Counterbalance Landstill (specifically) has been the most consistent, most powerful deck I've ever played in Legacy. What mind boggles me is that no one, aside from Citrus-God aka Anti-American and very few others, has even acknowledged that the deck is even decent, let alone very strong. I keep hearing nothing but skepticism and negative feedback.

Hopefully when I finish the primer, which is like 5% done and is already 6 Word pages long, it'll be able to get some attention and some thorough feedback. Hopefully people start to actually playtest with it. I'm sure once they do, they'll realize that it is a contender, and get played some. I don't get to play in tournaments, so I can't put up results myself. Hopefully some people pilot it somewhere, and if they are halfway decent, I know it will place. Once that happens, I'll feel much better about my time investment with the deck. That's my goal, and I'm gonna see it through.


Hanni, if you make primer for your u-w landstill, could you write some sideboarding plans against decks you usually see = tier 1 / some tier 2 decks. Thanks! :)

I plan on including it all. Every last bit. If anyone has anything they want me to address in the primer, feel free to let me know. Negative/constructive criticism is very welcome at this point, since I want to address everything.

[Atog]

I plan on including it all. Every last bit. If anyone has anything they want me to address in the primer, feel free to let me know. Negative/constructive criticism is very welcome at this point, since I want to address everything.

That would be very nice. When i pick a new deck, there goes quite a bit time when i do right decisions when sideboarding against different decks. So that sideboard guide will be helpful. What is your bad matchups? I guess dredge before sideboarding and b-x decks what plays discard and manadenial? Goblins could be hard to handle if they get fast enought start too..

[Hanni]

The worst matchup is Dredge. They can play straight through everything I run and make a lethal 2/2 army. My spells are mostly worthless against them. I accept that it is a bad matchup. I don't even bother with graveyard hate in the sideboard, because it is literally the only matchup I bring graveyard hate in for. I typically bring in Path to Exile and Meddling Mage. My reasoning here is that Path to Exile + Swords to Plowshares answer Ichorid nicely (and Putrid Imp's and Narcomoeba's too). If they have no guys to get 2/2 tokens for, they can't get 2/2 tokens. Meddling Mage names Cabal Therapy so that they have no sac outlets to make 2/2 tokens and so they cannot rape my hand. They also put up a clock and can block to destroy bridges (or I can WoG them if I live long enough). Pray to god they get some slow draws or have to mulligan to 4, because this is the worst matchup.

B/x decks aren't horrible matchups, but they aren't excellent ones either. As a control deck, you value the cards in hand and your lands in play. It depends on what kind of B/x deck you're playing against. If it's control, I've found it to be a solid matchup. If it's aggro/control (Wasteland/Sinkhole/Vindicate/Stifle), you have to hope you don't fall into landscrew before you can answer their guys. If you make it past the early turns, you'll typically win because their disruption becomes less effective and you have access to the rest of your removal. CounterTop is strong here, removal obviously, and Elspeth is a bad ass. I'll list more about this when I can.

Goblins is rough preboard. You have limited answers to turn 1 Vials and Lackey's, and those are both very bad for us to not answer. Surviving the intital rush is mandatory but not always possible. If we make it to the late game, cards like Elspeth, Decree, and Wrath of God are very valuable. Countering any card advantage guys they have is very important; Ringleader, Wort, and even Matron. Keep your removal aimed on Piledriver's and mana cheaters (Frogtosser/Warchief) to slow them down. Not gonna sugar coat it, the matchup is difficult preboard. Winnable, but difficult. Postboard, with Counterbalance coming out for BEB, and 2 Standstills coming out for 2 Path to Exile, we have a total of 10 1cc spot removal spells. Makes the matchup very easy. I've been considering squeezing in Oblivion Rings instead of PtE to handle Vial, but I'm on the fence with. 10 1cc spot removal spells is so delicious that I've been finding great success with it.

Other than that, there's no glaring weaknesses. That's what makes the deck so great. You can 2-0 Aggro Loam. You can 2-0 Burn. You can 2-0 Goyf Sligh. You can 2-0 Zoo. You can 2-0 Threshold variants. You can 2-0 combo. All of these were previously not so good. Merfolk, between a 2/3 game set, I've done very well against, same goes for decks like Survival and Dragon Stompy. However, rather than make what some may be thinking as outlandish claims, I'd rather just explain everything in the primer all at one time so I don't exhaust all of my energy. It could take me some time to write it up, but I'm going to dedicate alot of spare time to it. I promise I won't disappoint.

[rsaunder]

Hanni, if I were you I'd edit out those parts of your earlier post that are in bold, it's worth reading and I feel like the discussion present would benefit the thread. Don't keep the best discussion to yourselves guys! Just keep it civil.

BTW, you're right about the slot that CB takes, I thought it was counterspell for so long, but it's definitely the Spell Snare slot. When I was debating the slots with myself I came to the same conclusion, though I do like spell snare for various reasons, I agree 100%.

[Citrus-God]

Hanni, if I were you I'd edit out those parts of your earlier post that are in bold, it's worth reading and I feel like the discussion present would benefit the thread. Don't keep the best discussion to yourselves guys! Just keep it civil.

I love how it said that it's directed towards everybody except Moss. Taco, Bardo and I were totally the ones to originally bring up the concept. Especially Bardo. But w/e.

[rsaunder]

I love how it said that it's directed towards everybody except Moss. Taco, Bardo and I were totally the ones to originally bring up the concept. Especially Bardo. But w/e.

Way back, with that like UWg build. It was an interesting deck, but it really died out for a while. Like the last year.

[Hanni]

I love how it said that it's directed towards everybody except Moss. Taco, Bardo and I were totally the ones to originally bring up the concept. Especially Bardo. But w/e.

It's directed towards Moss as a response to a PM he sent me, and I couldn't fit it in the PM because it was too long. I really wanted him to read it, so I posted it on here. The semi-flaming isn't a personal attack towards him, his beliefs, or even his viewpoints. I was simply responding in the same tone that the original PM's were sent to me in, and he also clearly stated that he meant no intentional flaming. I'm not angry, and I'm sure he's not angry.

_________________________________________________________________________
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I was rolling on Adderall last night/this morning and I had an epiphany. I was taking a break from writing the U/W Counterbalance Landstill primer and decided to playtest a new deck I just designed, a variation of U/G/b Intuition Loam. For reference, the decklist can be found here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=385634&postcount=1

I modeled the deck directly after my U/W Counterbalance Landstill deck, adding some elements of ITF and some elements of Aggro Loam. It plays a very similar gameplan, except it's more powerful and has more answers to stuff, but has less overall consistency and is alot slower.

Anyways, I know now why people are playing with Spell Snares, extra Path's in the main, and cutting Counterspells. It's because of your manabases (and your lowered count of Brainstorms/Tops).

I played 10 straight games against Canadian Thresh with the U/G/b Intuition Loam deck. I won 6 and lost 4, and the 6 that I won were so very close; many games I was at 3 or less life and would have died the next turn (a few games I was brought down to 1 life). The games I did lose were complete shut outs by my opponent.

Take this hypothetical scenario for a moment (which does occur quite frequently):

You're playing either 3c or 4c Landstill and your opponent is playing Canadian Thresh. Your opponent goes first and plays a Tropical Island and passes the turn. On your turn, you play a fetchland which is met by Stifle (you play the fetchland because all you have are nonbasic lands in hand, whether duals or colorless producers). You pass the turn, the opponent plays a Volcanic Island and casts Tarmogoyf, which you have no FoW for. On your turn, you play a Tundra and pass the turn. On your opponent's turn, he casts Ponder, and then Wastes your Tundra. In response, you StP the Goyf but StP is met by Daze. The opponent swings for 3, and passes the turn. The opponent is sitting on 3 lands and you're at 0. That WoG and EE in hand are useless to you right now, and your stumbling to assemble your manabase. Counterspell is worthless for you, let alone Counterbalance. By the time you stabilize the manabase, you're already dead.

NOW I see why people are increasing their amount of early tempo cards in their 3c and 4c lists. You simply cannot keep up with decks like Merfolk, Tempo Thresh, and probably even Goblins. Counterbalance will never work in a 3c or 4c list effectively against these strategies, at least not as well as Spell Snare or Path to Exile, so on and so forth.

I've tried 3c Counterbalance Landstill long ago, and just shifted to 2c through time without noticing it because it improved the deck. I didn't realize that the current metagame pressures were the reason why everyone disliked Counterbalance so much. I cannot believe I didn't see this before. It's the manabase! Worst part is, most of the 3c and 4c decks aren't even running the full 4 Brainstorm and 4 Top, which are essential for early manabase stabilization.

The U/W manabase allows the deck to run 4 Counterspells and 4 Counterbalances without nearly as much consequence. With 7 basics and only two color sources necessary to provide for, you shrug off this Stifle/Waste/Daze combination. You almost always have more than 1 basic in your opener, and with Brainstorm/Top to dig for more, you can play seemlessly through the first several turns of the game before needing to drop Factory, Tundra, or a fetchland. The ability to ramp up mana faster through manabase hate is why Counterspell works well for me, and why I have no problems getting early Counterbalances into play. Of course Spell Snare still hits these, but it's so much less of a blow when I can come back with StP, O Ring... hell, even WoG. My U/W manabase transitions me easily into the mid game, where I then take full control with CounterTop, WoG, Elspeth, so on and so forth. In 3c and 4c lists, you can't even get there without the aid of Spell Snare and often Path to Exile's in addition to Swords to Plowshares.

(I'm seriously having a breakthrough right now.)

The manabase strength doesn't even stop there. Against decks like Aggro Loam, Team America, and even other matchups, you cannot understand how much these matchups dramatically change by something as simple as running 2c rather than 3c. It's not even the number of basics, since many 3c lists do in fact run 4 basics. It's that fact that you don't need to try to assemble all 3 colors, sometimes double of a certain color, with nothing but basics. It's that fact that with only 4 basics of 3 different colors, you often have the wrong color basic in your opener for what you need and are heavily reliant on fetchlands to grab the right basics. Then, when you do have to play that Undeground Sea turn 2 or fetchland turn 3 so that you can play Vindicate on turn 3, they hit you with Wasteland or Stifle and your black source is gone again.

Landstill's biggest obstacle to overcome, as a control deck, is to make it to the mid-late game where it has enough lands and colored mana sources to cast its powerful cards, where it simply wins by overpowering and out-card-advantaging its opponent's. How can that even be accomplished when it's stumbling to build up it's manabase against the deck that attack it? No wonder U/W/r Walkerstill has become mildly successful; it's spells operate on a slightly lower curve!

I now see why the naysayers have hated Counterbalance in Landstill for so long. First it was the fact that the curve wasn't good enough; until decks like ITF and even new CounterTop Thresh dropped their curves down to around 12/12 1cc/2cc (which is what I also run). Then, the metagame shifted, and tempo manabase denial strategies started to tear through the metagame. After that, it became a matter of unplayability in the 3c and 4c lists.

So in summarization, the difference between 2c and 3c or 4c is two parts, a) total number of lands you can put into play early, and b) access to the correct color sources early.

I truly and honestly believe that, in this metagame, rather than run cards like Path to Exile and Spell Snare maindeck just to make it to the midgame, that the manabase should simply be U/W. Toss in Counterbalance, and no wonder [Counterbalance Landstill] works so well for me and not for others. Honestly, how many players saying no to Counterbalance actually tested my exact decklist, and how many playtested it in their 3c and 4c lists?

Anyway, I have a whole lot more to say about a whole lot more topics, but that's what Adderall does. If anyone wants to chat me up on yahoo messenger while I'm online before I go to work, it's fiendish_nature86

Let's talk Landstill!

[Omega]

I agree in most part with Hanni.

Most meta features deck like Canadian, Merfolk et Goblin/Zoo.
All are fast and most of them run mana disruption such as stifle, wasteland, rishadan port.

For a deck like Landstill to perform, obviously we need to get to 4+ mana as soon as possible. For that to work, I've always played 6+ basic lands deck. Obviously, when you are playing 3c, playing that many basics can hurt. That's why we need "mana fixer"

I play 4 brainstorm
3 sensei's divining top
1 crucible of worlds
1 eternal dragon

SDT is probably the best cards in the MU where you are getting disrupted.

COW and Eternal Dragon both serve to stabilize Manabase. I am still hesitating between 2 cow and 0 dragon, but I have found both to have their advantage. Most people disregard E.Dragon as a kill condition. But let me tell you that in the VERY late game, that guy can come in handy. Especially in the mirror match up or when both decks are in top-deck mode. E.Dragon usually wins me 1 game in every tournament (and I can't count the number of time where him fetching a plain saved my ass!)
Edragon costs 2 mana to get a plain
COW cost 3 mana to get you a land.
Cow can be destroyed.
Edragon can be stifled.

But I disgress. I wanted to know if Hanni could post his list, as it does seem interesting


Lets not forget CB also drastically improve Combo MU for LAndstill :) But I'm wondering if the loss of Black (Vindicate) could hurt the control mirror. And overall, Vindicates are usually very good at answering any threat. They can serve as a creature removal, planeswalker removal, or as a tempo gain by destroying lands of an opponnent already light on mana.

Robert

[Hanni]

U/W Counterbalance Landstill
Kaezurstill

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [U] Tundra
4 [7E] Island (3)
3 [P3] Plains (2)
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)

// Spells
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [ST] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
3 [REW] Wrath of God
2 [ALA] Oblivion Ring

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [REW] Wrath of God
SB: 2 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
SB: 4 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 4 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage

The 1 WoG in the sideboard could potentially be 1 Humility.

[RogueMTG]

Whats the argument for no Wasteland? That's the only thing that seems crazy out of place to me. I like to be better than other decks under an early Standstill, Wasteland is usually a big part of that.

All those 4's look like it should at least be consistent.

[Omega]

The first thing that struck me when considering your list is
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
3 [REW] Wrath of God
2 [ALA] Oblivion Ring

The lack of EE. I can understand that EE @ 2 can be pretty weak (you don't have access to a third colour). In my 3c landstill, EE is gold.

Most list run
4 stp
2-3 wog
2-3 EE
0-2 vindicate
0-1 humility.

for a total of about 10-12 removal md.
I feel your list might lack of answers to board. (Or at least, lack of versatility. Most, if not all your removals are aimed at creatures. O-Ring gives you some versatility, but that's it)

How do you feel about running 0 Wasteland?
Merfolk deck, imo, is one of my hardest MU.
You get an improvement in Mana base because of 2c (but my black is only a small splash).
You run more basics 7 vs my 6, but you run 8 fetches, vs my 6. Does this open a vulnerability to stifle and life loss?
You lose EE, so almost no answer to turn 1 Aether vial.

I think you said that it was a good MU for you. Am I correct? If so, how?

Linked to the fact that you run 0 wasteland, how good can you abuse Standstill in the MU where opponents have man land?
No fact or fiction? Is it because you want to keep the curve low?


Looking at your sideboard
SB: 1 [REW] Wrath of God
SB: 2 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
SB: 4 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 4 [b] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage

I see 7 more removal (and 4 more for red based deck). My guess are that WOG and PTE are best against aggro deck. While Oblivion ring is best in control and aggro/control.
You have 0 graveyard removal. Only Ichorid truly beats you because of that.


About your MU
Combo : I can see CB improving drastically your combo Match, maybe even positive pre-board. And even better post board.

Threshold deck : Landstill usually just win against Threshold.

Canadian thres : 2c gives you stability, but you have a lot of fetchland. Lack of EE make Mongoose even stronger. You have WOG, but all landstill have WOG. A resolved CB in this MU is generally game if you can stick it to play. I can see a slight improvement, but that is compensated by the loss of removal in the form of EE.

Merfolk : Lack of wasteland, and lack of EE to answer Vial seem to weaken your MU. I have never been able to test CB against Merfolk. They always have 1st turn Aether vial :O

Zoo : CB can be a very interesting tool against Zoo deck. Their curve is extremely low and can easily be shut down by CB + Top. However, they play MD Pridemage that can keep those CB of yours out of the game until you can find a sword to remove him. I can see an improvement in this game by CB.

Burn : Needless to say that maindeck CB can win you the game. But an addition of Cunning wish could be interesting to your list. You could always use the Pulse of the fields to recover from the red zone.


So overall, in my opinion :
-You lose EE, one of the most versatile tool in Landstill
-Your mana base is more stable than most lists, but you also increased the number of fetches.
-CB improves some MU.


Personally, I'd like to tweak your list (but don't have time at the moment to think about it). Here are some ideas, hoping they can help you.
-more removals
-secondary source of Card advantage in the form of Fact or fiction
-Versatility : Cunning wish?

[Hanni]

Wasteland does make Factory better under Standstill, but so does Decree. Wasteland and Decree are competing for the same spot. I prefer Decree because it cantrips, is an additional win condition rather than a supplement, and is basically an instant win if the game goes long. However, that is my preference. -2 DoJ +2 Wasteland is also acceptable.

The amount of 4-of's, especially with 4 Brainstorm/4 Top, make the deck rediculously consistent. That's what I've been saying about the deck all along.

EE is a great card, in other Landstill versions. It just doesn't do enough in mine. 2 colors means it's capping out at 2, which just doesn't answer enough anymore. With it's X manacost, it adds nothing to the Counterbalance curve. When popped for 2, it removes my own Counterbalances.

9 removal spells actually works out fine for me with 4 Brainstorm/4 Top since my chance of seeing removal is more like running 10 or 11 in comparison to lists that run 2 or 0 Top's and/or less than 4 Brainstorm. Also, Counterbalance's reusable countermagic power makes up for the lack of removal; you have enough removal to clear the board early and enough countermagic (especially with 4 Counterspell) to keep guys off the table mid-late.


How do you feel about running 0 Wasteland?
Merfolk deck, imo, is one of my hardest MU.
You get an improvement in Mana base because of 2c (but my black is only a small splash).
You run more basics 7 vs my 6, but you run 8 fetches, vs my 6. Does this open a vulnerability to stifle and life loss?
You lose EE, so almost no answer to turn 1 Aether vial.


Wasteland is plausible against Merfolk and Tempo Thresh heavy metagames, as a replacement for Decree of Justice, since it's an additional land drop.

Merfolk is not that hard of a matchup for me. Ichorid is by far my hardest one.

My 8 fetches to your 6 does open me up to Stifle more, but it's a necessary evil. I need the shuffle effects for Top. Considering I run 7 basics, consisting of only 2 colors, I rarely find myself worrying about my manabase. An occasionally Stifle here and there doesn't hurt, unless it's your first or second land drop of the game and the opponent gets a blazingly fast start. Luckily, vs Merfolk, they are not as fast as Canadian Threshold so you have time to stabilize if they do pop an early fetchland. However, I run 8 nonbasics, 4 being Factories... how many nonbasics do you run? If you run at least 10, all you're doing is trading my two additional weakness to Stifle lands to your two additional weakness to Wasteland lands. Life loss is mostly irrelevant.

I do lose EE, and it's ability to answer Vial on turn 2. O Ring answers it on turn 3 though (of course Cursecatcher and Daze withholding), so I'm only losing a little bit of tempo there. If I'm on the play and don't get hit/affected by Stifles/Wastes, the opponent only gets 1 counter on Vial before I'm potentially able to blow it up. Of course, that is ideal, and more often than not I'm waiting till 4 land drops to do so, but that's only accelerating them into a few extra critters, which one may have met my StP. Vial makes for fast midgame starts but can be slow during the opening; I have plenty of time to WoG before shit gets crazy. On contrast, I'm much more fearful of a Lackey opening vs Goblins if I don't have a turn 1 answer. Why? Because it's a much faster start.

My sideboard just depends. I bring in 2 O Ring for alot of matchups, including Aggro Loam, CounterTop Thresh, and others. The Path's come in against Zoo and Merfolk, and I may bring them in for Goblins and Goyf Sligh depending (I flop around on this). WoG comes in against CounterTop since 4cc is out of their CB range, and it also is used against decks like Survival Elves and other mass horde decks that I cannot easily 1-for-1 with StP and PtE. This could potentially be 1 Humility.

Ichorid is the only matchup I'd bring graveyard hate in for, so I don't run it. I drop 4 Counterbalance, 2 Decree of Justice, and 2 Oblivion Ring for 4 Path to Exile and 4 Meddling Mage. My reasoning there is two parts, a) StP/PtE keep them off of Putrid Imp's and Ichorid's, so they can't attack for damage, they can't sac them at EOT to Cabal Therapy, and they can't get Zombie tokens for sac'ing them regardless, and b) Meddling Mage names Cabal Therapy so they can't sac Narcomoeba's, getting Zombie tokens, and they can't rape my hand. If they can't put Zombie tokens into play or mount an offensive, they aren't killing me. Early FoW and possibly Counterspell can stop them from super accelerating into a turn 1 or 2 combo. WoG on my own Meddling Mage removes their bridges. If I can survive long enough to drop an Elspeth, chances are I won the matchup. Still, a bad matchup regardless. No point in boarding narrow sideboard for a matchup I rarely ever see. Keep in mind that when I say narrow, I don't mean that Relic cannot come in for other matchups, I mean that there are no other matchups where I actually want to bring Relic in for.


About your MU
Combo : I can see CB improving drastically your combo Match, maybe even positive pre-board. And even better post board.


Combo is one of my best matchups, preboard and postboard.


Threshold deck : Landstill usually just win against Threshold.


Not every build beats Threshold that easily. Luckily, this one does.


Canadian thres : 2c gives you stability, but you have a lot of fetchland. Lack of EE make Mongoose even stronger. You have WOG, but all landstill have WOG. A resolved CB in this MU is generally game if you can stick it to play. I can see a slight improvement, but that is compensated by the loss of removal in the form of EE.


I've yet to lose against Canadian Threshold as of yet. Sometimes they get me very low in life before I manage to stabilize, and I'm sure I'm bound to lose a game from time to time at some point, but so far I've always stabilized and dropped Elspeth or CounterTop ftw. My extra fetchlands =/= your extra nonbasics. Lack of EE makes Goose stronger, but they do run Stifle for that. I just try to block with Factory early on until I can unload a Wrath of God or an Elspeth. Usually early Mongooses stay 1/1 for a while so the clock isn't too threatening. By the time they get big, I can typically drop Elspeth or WoG. Other Landstill lists may run these cards too, but me being U/W makes it easier for me to ramp to 4-5 mana to get one of these cards to stick before I'm dead.


Merfolk : Lack of wasteland, and lack of EE to answer Vial seem to weaken your MU. I have never been able to test CB against Merfolk. They always have 1st turn Aether vial :O

Counterbalance is decent to mediocre against Merfolk depending on the situation. I lack EE to early Vial, but still have O Ring or simply just FoW. They are a rather slow aggro deck, and when their mana denial doesn't do as much as it needs to do, I can push through into the mid-late game and answer them before they kill me. CB sucks against them if they have Vial, but if they don't have Vial, CB is alright. If they don't have Vial and you resolve a WoG with a CounterTop on board (or you resolve a CounterTop afterwards), you can push them so far out of the game that they cannot come back and you win. So CB is not worthless here, just situational (rare to counter 3cc spells though). Islandwalk is a bitch, so keeping Lord of Atlantis off the table so that Elspeth and Decree tokens can block is a must. I don't have Wasteland, but I do have Decree... and again, in Merfolk heavy metagames, you can drop 2 Decree for 2 Wasteland. Postboard, you gain Path to Exile, which is a savage beating against them. I have lost a few games against Merfolk before, but I have never lost a 2/3 game set vs them yet.


Burn : Needless to say that maindeck CB can win you the game. But an addition of Cunning wish could be interesting to your list. You could always use the Pulse of the fields to recover from the red zone.


I 2-0 Burn all the time. Contrary to the normal use of Counterbalance (i.e not a crutch), it is in fact a crutch in this matchup. Resolving Counterbalance as soon as possible is what you want to dig for everytime. Once it's active, you win the game. Without it, you have to hope to stall through FoW and Counterspell until you can drop Elspeth and race with Elspeth + Factory. Postboard, you bring in both Blue Elemental Blast and Meddling Mage. -2 DoJ, -3 WoG, -2 O Ring, -1 StP, +4 BEB +4 Mage. You now have 15 1cc spells and 16 2cc spells to make Counterbalance blind reveals sick, FoW/Counterspell/Counterbalance/BEB turns them from a 4 turn clock into like a 10 turn clock (or a lockout), Mage can draw out removal (esentially causing them to waste their burn, making Meddling Mage read: UW: Gain 3 life), while it beats for 2, possibly shuts down a burn spell temporarily, and can be hit by your own StP in resp to gain 2 life (net of 5 if they Bolt'd it). Increasing the clock against "combo" is good, and you run an assload of blue spells to pitch to FoW. Sometimes you lose game 1, but I never lose a 2/3 set. Ever.


So overall, in my opinion :
-You lose EE, one of the most versatile tool in Landstill
-Your mana base is more stable than most lists, but you also increased the number of fetches.
-CB improves some MU.


Personally, I'd like to tweak your list (but don't have time at the moment to think about it). Here are some ideas, hoping they can help you.
-more removals
-secondary source of Card advantage in the form of Fact or fiction
-Versatility : Cunning wish?



I can live without EE. Vindicate too, for that matter.

8 fetches is pretty standard for me in just about any deck, especially if I'm running Top.

CB improves almost every matchup besides a select few, like Goblins, Dragon Stompy, and Ichorid. The degree to which it improves the matchup is typically different, but it improves some seriously negative matchups so drastically that I cannot for the life of me understand why no one runs Counterbalance maindeck (well, aside from it being horrible in 3c and 4c lists, of course).

I answered the more removals question.

Counterbalance is a secondary form of card advantage. WoG, Standstill, and even Elspeth and Decree of Justice do this as well. Fact or Fiction is a great card but it does not fit into the Counterbalance curve.

I hate Cunning Wish.

Keep the questions coming, I want more content for the primer.

[Bardo]

Way back, with that like UWg build. It was an interesting deck, but it really died out for a while. Like the last year.

I go between 23 and 24 lands, but all of my Landstill lists still run Counterbalance/Top (U/w, U/W/g and U/b/g). It's so damn good against against so much that gives Landstill a hard time (mainly, burn, storm and other fast decks that have spells clumped at 1-2 cmc; though it sucks vs. dredge), but I don't feel the need to post about it these days.

[Hanni]

I love how it said that it's directed towards everybody except Moss. Taco, Bardo and I were totally the ones to originally bring up the concept. Especially Bardo. But w/e.


Way back, with that like UWg build. It was an interesting deck, but it really died out for a while. Like the last year.

Anti-American, I remember that. Back when you suggested CounterTop in Threshold and no one would listen at first. You suggested it to me in UWb Fish and I wouldn't listen either, but that was only because UWb Fish was so mana hungry on playing creatures that it didn't really fit well. Of course, UWb Fish has been obsoleted for a long time anyway.

However, I do not remember you advocating it in Landstill. Not to say that you didn't, cause I'm sure you did, I just didn't keep up with the Landstill thread back then.

However, I thought me and Bardo both came up with the idea around the same time, quite a while back, where Bardo went UGb with Goyfs, and I went UWg for Grips side. Of course, that list back then was not as refined as this list now. That, and I wouldn't play 3c anymore.


I go between 23 and 24 lands, but all of my Landstill lists still run Counterbalance/Top (U/w, U/W/g and U/b/g). It's so damn good against against so much that gives Landstill a hard time (mainly, burn, storm and other fast decks that have spells clumped at 1-2 cmc; though it sucks vs. dredge), but I don't feel the need to post about it these days.

I remember you supporting my post when I posted the UWg Counterbalance version a long while back. You just don't actively post on this thread enough. ;)

So, you don't post and let me suffer the wrath of 95% of the Landstill thread? lol j/k

[rsaunder]

That build was a lot more aggressive though. Every build I saw (and tested) ran goyf and nantuko monastery. These bad boys got replaced by MD elspeth (for me at least) though, and she doesn't fit into the curve for CB as well. Right now I'm awfully happy with the build I'm running, with vindicates and spell snare MB. I'm making this choice because altering the curve to support CB MB to the point where it becomes an asset (i.e. 12+ 2-drops) messes so much with my current build; I'd have to lose vindicate and drop FoF, which I feel are two of the strongest options my build gives.

I do run CB in the board, but it serves a different purpose. It's there for burn (not zoo, generally) and combo. It comes in in other matchups as well, but not as a primary plan, more of a "well, if I get a 1-sided-chalice-at-one that'll be sweet, but my main plan is better since they'll be boarding grips." It's an interesting card to be sure, but for the time I'm keeping it in the board because I feel that gives me the strongest MB options.

[mossivo1986]

Playtesting comments/ legitimacy


I'm not questioning the legitimacy of your playtesting at all or the ammount of time so much. I'm questioning the legitimacy of your Results against matchups/ actual tournament results.

You keep mentioning how if you take out vial in the equation of said aggro matchup it becomes alot easier (if you force, etc.) Obviously if you take the single best anti-control card out of the equation then all of a sudden the matchups you face are going to substantially change. Now keep in mind that most match-ups that are played with vial are won and lost based on how well the opponent can either deal with vial or die from it. The reality? You have 2 oblivian ring and 4 force to stop it main deck and a post board where you add in 2 additional rings and a wrath. This isn't substantially changing any aggro match-up you face.

Also mentioned in here was D-Stompy. This deck is virtually an auto-bye for most landstill variants color intensive on the black splash or not. Dragon Stompy has been proven over and over again to be a glass-cannon so bringing it up really makes no sense or difference in regards to such a favorable match-up.


Discrediting you
The only reason I actually question your testing is because your playing cards that are generally just (fair) and actually very answerable. Cards like Oblivian ring and counterbalance when left unprotected are treated as soft locks and generally not fantastic answers. Only when counterbalance is diluted with an aggro control shell has it been proven to actually be successful. Even ITF is more an aggro control deck then a pure control deck. Also just to mention your ugb brainstorming is basically Team Canada made by Team Spod, most notably DIF. You should consider checking into that. I believe it's in the tournament report page of one of their last few tourneys.


Just because you've used Counterbalance in the sideboard, or have tried it in the past, does not change the fact that you haven't used it in the shell I'm using it in. This may be a reason why your perception of it is slightly different than mine.

No. The reason I don't agree with counterbalance in the main-deck is because its just an improvement on decks that normal counterbalance based control already beats. While it does improve some match-ups it also hozes so many more matchups where counterbalance really isn't an issue; and because your not nearly as consistent at hitting you numbers or answers as say threshhold is I think you really arn't seeing the real picture. Landstill is not as a whole cannot be as redundant as decks like threshhold or dreadstill are which makes counterbalance less good and more dependant on cards that actually do something. Making Oblivian ring less efficient and more just another 3 drop that doesnt do enough. This list goes on and on.

Also going this route you cut the second best removal in the format (EE) which is virtually the backbone of why land still wins so many of it's match-ups with semi inevitability with Academy Ruins. My perception may be different but i've played my fair share of counterbalance in the main decks of land-still before. I've also tested thresh models extensively and White splash thresh for future reference is my pet deck, which is why I just generally disagree with your testing information, as aggro control handles vial a lot better then control handles it and even in those match ups it causes stress for those decks that actually have the correct efficient answers.


Tournament results
because you have none. You've been testing this deck against the meta-game for six months yet you have few answers to common questions that are going to be stresses to the arch type as a whole. You have cut ee, upped the slow removal count: and yet because you run counterbalance: practically bleed that it does enough to rip the aggro match ups in this current meta to be a successful sub arch type. Well i'm sorry Mr. Magoo but i'm calling your bluff on this one. I've done the same testing as you with a much stronger aggressive game-plan oriented deck against the same aggro decks and i've come up short. I don't see how you with a much more reactive game and slightly less efficient are coming up with better results.


The difference between experience and ideology does not have to directly corrolate to tournaments.

No but actually testing against pilots who know their perspective decks at the top tables and winning against them versus sleev-ing up and battling over a kitchen/ local FNM table makes a world of difference. Include m.w.s testing in this kitchen table category.


When Landstill can consistently 2-0 matchups like Aggro Loam and Burn against various opponent's, it must be more than simply "I got lucky" or "my competition doesn't know what the hell they are doing."

Here in lies the problem. Aggro loam is favorable and burn is 40-50 % based on side-boarding and burn main deck differences. These match ups are roughly favorable anyways.


Think in terms of sports for a second; playtesting is to practice as tournaments are to the game. You don't get better at the sport only when playing in the game, you get better at the sport by going to lots of practices.
Tell this to Alan Iverson, (comedy drum roll pause)



I fail to see how Merfolk now becomes punted, considering I do very well against Merfolk. Counterbalance itself doesn't hit two of their lords and Wakethrasher if they run it, but it hits everything else. The only foil is Vial, which is typically a must counter or must O Ring preboard, and of course postboard there are more answers. I'll address this matchup more in the primer.

Remember these words for your upcomming testing. Don't forget what you said here.


Goblins preboard is not improved by Counterbalance. There are a few targets for it, but for the most part they are bundled up at the 3cc spot. However, the U/W manabase that I run makes up for my deficencies in many of the matchups where Counterbalance isn't so hot, like Goblins and Dragon Stompy, which does in fact improve those matchups.

fyi counterbalance should be sweet in the d stompy match up once resolved. Once you lock it on 3-4 your basicly winning. Though I would imagine your stompy matchup is still tough as you dont have ee for challice and you run more fetches the most people in the landstill thread.



Again, Vial is something you want to answer quickly. Otherwise, the deck has enough removal and Decree/Elspeth to handle Goblins.

Thats the point, it doesn't consistently. Especially with the newest additions to the goblin arsenol, namely chieften and quite possible instigator. These cards are going to make it rediculously tough to handle goblins along with siege gang and ringleader. Ringleader used to be the real backbone in the deck, but no longer.


I 100% disagree with you about Threshold. I rape Threshold. Countless amount of times does this happen.

Tempo Thresh is improved by the U/W manabase and their low threat density is met by a large number of removal spells.

fyi tempo thresh is largely a favorable match up already. Also you keep mentioning this simply amazing manabase that you run of 2 additional fetches and 2 less duals with 0 land disruption and 1 additional island. This isn't more stable. It's possibly statistically more efficient but you forget that stifle is a major part of this format is blue and most of it is blue aggro control decks which most good ones happen to pack stifle. This is actually the entire reason why decks don't go nuts on the fetches anymore (besides perhaps zoo) Keep in mind that you also are still susceptible to wasteland as you run 8 non-basics so your deffinately not anywhere near out of the water, you just changed your poisons. Personally i'd rather lose a land to wasteland then to stifle, but thats just me :)


Decks like Thresh and Dreadstill don't run Counterspell because they curve out early and don't intend on hitting enough land drops or sitting back to be able to have UU open to cast Counterspell.

No but they plan on playing counterbalance and rhox? How does this make any sense at all?


That's why Daze is good here. Flip this around for a moment; if Daze is so good in those decks, why don't we run it?

because those decks are made to combat the other aggro control decks and combo decks much better then we can. Daze is universally not a counter for landstill because the idea of landstill is not that daze isn't a control card (it was played in Tog and remains one of the best tempo hozers in the game.) It's because the core of landstill forces it to not miss land drops. This is why cards that reduce the chances of you missing land-drops are amazing in landstill. It's not that your winning games on the back of counterbalance. It's that counterbalance is allowing you additional time to stall out games until you hit the later game. While that is exceptional in matchups that don't have a primary focus such as aggro loam or even pikula, or rock, in landstill the primary focus is to make it to turn four. Once you make it to turn four and hit your fourth land drop the game is substantially in your favor against a good portion of the current format. Against other decks like burn or combo this is not true and this is why im saying its a sideboard card. Its good in some matchups but its not relivent enough against the majority of the format (which ive tested against.)


Don't try to compare why Counterspell is good/bad in Landstill to why it's good/bad in Threshold; that's comparing apples to oranges, not apples to apples. That is absolutely a piss pour argument.

White thresh older (2-3 months) ran a single highlander counter spell so it's not exactly apples to oranges and the same principle philosophy belongs to the control shell of both decks. Stop the opponent from doing crazy shit and procede to do what your deck does best, ala control. It's more like aggressive strategy versus reactive strategy. And at the end of the day I guess you could say my play is more aggresive then yours and I don't need to play a counter wall with 15 counters and 2 threats. FYI your threats arn't inevitable like they were back when MUC was good, and the format knows it. Which makes your attempt at overcontrolling the format/matchups even more awkward.


You can compare my Counterspell to Thresh's Tarmogoyf all you want. Landstill is designed as a reactive deck, not a proactive one.

Which is why traditional designs failed and the deck practicly died. Thank god someone got some common sense to update the damn thing. Otherwise we'd all be playing countertop thresh. O wait, most of us already do.


That's why we have Counterspell for that Goyf, but that's also why we have Swords to Plowshares for that Goyf.

no we play stp because its the best removal spell in the format, we don't play goyf because we can't abuse it like a control shell can with even more redundancy than we can possibly contribute to said idea of a perfect 75.


Counter argument
Im not even going to get into this. Im just going to say that I personally believe that if threshhold gets counterbalance rolling, its better then if you can do it. Your answers are few, and you dont run EE.

Also this 2cc argument. you run 4 counterspell 4 standstill and 4 counterbalance. Thats 12 2cc spells. I run 5, sometimes less but generally 5. Don't tell me your not substantially more resiliant to spell snare or daze. your hardly ever going to play a matchup where you dont play against mix of daze snare stifle and wasteland, some matchups run all of those cards, and all of those cards give you problems. also just nuetralize force because they run it as well so the chances are approximately equal.



I fail to see how 2cc drops are worse than 3cc drops like Cunning Wish and Vindicate or 4cc drops like Elspeth and WoG.
Gustha do you mind answering this for me. I've been responding for 2 hours now and im just trying to get through this.

Ill answer the rest of this when i have more time.

-Moss

[rockout]

Oh my god get to the point. Both of you.

[Shawn]

You're playing either 3c or 4c Landstill and your opponent is playing Canadian Thresh. Your opponent goes first and plays a Tropical Island and passes the turn. On your turn, you play a fetchland which is met by Stifle (you play the fetchland because all you have are nonbasic lands in hand, whether duals or colorless producers).


Why are you using your fetch on your turn one, on the draw against tempo thresh? If you have no play, don't crack it. If you are playing a list with Tops and want to cast Top turn one use another land, so you don't get blown out by a Stifle and you still have the fetch for possible reshuffles. They will rarely tap out on their second turn for Goyf if all you did turn one was fetchland, pass. If they do, that gives you a window for activating fetches and casting Swords without fear of Stifle and Daze on your next turn. Also, turn one Brainstorm is terrible most of the time.


Honestly, how many players saying no to Counterbalance actually tested my exact decklist, and how many playtested it in their 3c and 4c lists?

I had a list very similar to yours which I threw together after I saw your list waayy back in this thread, but I had Explosives in it. It was ok, but a resolved Aether Vial made me want to throw my deck across the room, since I only had three ways to kill it. It blanked so many cards in my deck and put me way too far behind.

Hanni, do you really need the 4 Mage in the board when you have eight hard-counters to deal with random stuff? (Armageddon from stax, for example)

[Hanni]

Why are you using your fetch on your turn one, on the draw against tempo thresh? If you have no play, don't crack it. If you are playing a list with Tops and want to cast Top turn one use another land, so you don't get blown out by a Stifle and you still have the fetch for possible reshuffles. They will rarely tap out on their second turn for Goyf if all you did turn one was fetchland, pass. If they do, that gives you a window for activating fetches and casting Swords without fear of Stifle and Daze on your next turn. Also, turn one Brainstorm is terrible most of the time.

It was just a hypothetical example of the tempo they generate vs us, not what the actual optimal play would have been in that situation. I came up with those plays off the top of my head, since tempo generation by them was similar to that in my small test sample with my UGb Intuition Loam deck vs Canadian Thresh. I'm not accounting bluffing Daze or anything like that into this scenario, just pointing out the power level of Canadian Thresh (and like variants, ala Merfolk) against a 3c control decks manabase and spell curve.


I had a list very similar to yours which I threw together after I saw your list waayy back in this thread, but I had Explosives in it. It was ok, but a resolved Aether Vial made me want to throw my deck across the room, since I only had three ways to kill it. It blanked so many cards in my deck and put me way too far behind.

Hanni, do you really need the 4 Mage in the board when you have eight hard-counters to deal with random stuff? (Armageddon from stax, for example)

The lack of answers to Vial with my deck isn't really as bad as it seems. How many answers is everyone else running, 2 EE and 2 Vindicate? EE is obviously a little better against Vial than O Ring is, but it's not ZOMGZ better, and Vindicates WB manacost seems like it would be difficult to cast to blow up Vial against Wastes/Ports or Wastes/Stifles/Dazes (and possibly Cursecatcher's). I like O Ring in my deck, and I think being 2c + O Ring > the loss of EE and Vindicate, but hey, that's just me. But then again, I wouldn't advise running Counterbalance in anything other than 2c, so it's a trade of power: would you accept a slightly weaker removal package for a more stable manabase and the awesomesauce that is Counterbalance?

Vial is a fairly big problem to deal with, since it nullifies much of our countermagic (when they aren't hardcasting any guys). As far as mana ramp, it takes them a few turns for them to get going, so I actually prefer to see Vial starts over something like an unanswered Lackey start (where they often race you before you can stabilize). It means I have enough time to dig (for WoG) & ramp (mana) for WoG, whether that's through Stifle/Waste/Daze (and possibly Cursecatcher) or Waste/Port. If they ramp Vial and unload a bunch of guys, you're going to take some damage but more often than not, not lethal. Once you WoG, you buy yourself alot of time to find more removal or drop an Elspeth, from my experience. Vial is a problem, but by no means is a resolved Vial, that goes unanswered, game over. At least not from my "illegitimate" experience.

Mage answers alot of randomness, despite the irony in that. Predicted randomness anyway... what I mean is, decks that you know about, but matchups you wouldn't expect Mage to come in for.

Mage comes in against Burn, Ichorid, and Combo to name the most popular matchups I bring him in against. I've already stated why and how I bring them in for Ichorid like 3 times in the last 2 pages so I won't repeat it, and I just mentioned Burn too, but I left combo out. That should be a no brainer, but basically it adds an additional clock (this point is relevant) while temporarily and additionally disrupting their gameplan so they simply cannot do shit against you. Being blue and 2cc makes him a very relevant sideboard card to bring in against some other matchups as well, because of the importance of blue spells to pitch to FoW, and additional 2cc spells for the Counterbalance curve (like Burn and Combo, Goyf Sligh, etc).

Also, against certain key spells, Mage can be useful. For example, doing what CounterTop can do against Aggro Loam by naming Loam, though I don't board Mage in because they run alot of removal and I plan on casting WoG as often as I need to. Bad example maybe, but you get the point.

Relentless Rats? I have Meddling Mage! lol...

It's also strong against opposing Control decks; typically, my mass removal is bad against them, so I board out WoG's, and they almost always have a few spells I'd really like to not see played. He's not as great as Gaddock Teeg against Control, but wait... Teeg shuts us down anyway. Plus his little 2/2 clock, combined with Factories, do add up.

@ Mossivo

I really wanted to reply to your post tonight, but it's probably going to take me like 3 hours so I'll have to wait till tomorrow. I definitely appreciate you engaging me in detailed conversation about this. I promise it will be worth your time to do so. Thanks again.

[Citrus-God]

Anti-American, I remember that. Back when you suggested CounterTop in Threshold and no one would listen at first. You suggested it to me in UWb Fish and I wouldn't listen either, but that was only because UWb Fish was so mana hungry on playing creatures that it didn't really fit well. Of course, UWb Fish has been obsoleted for a long time anyway.

Yeah.... so did Threshold. Have you seen how many people took Mongeese out of CB Thresh?


However, I do not remember you advocating it in Landstill. Not to say that you didn't, cause I'm sure you did, I just didn't keep up with the Landstill thread back then.

I've been advocating for them in the sideboard. Still, post board games are 66% of a game. Having Counterbalance just helps.


However, I thought me and Bardo both came up with the idea around the same time, quite a while back, where Bardo went UGb with Goyfs, and I went UWg for Grips side. Of course, that list back then was not as refined as this list now. That, and I wouldn't play 3c anymore.


It's still an alright list. Having access to Krosan Grips is still a strong option for the deck to have.


I remember you supporting my post when I posted the UWg Counterbalance version a long while back. You just don't actively post on this thread enough. ;)

I still posted. :)


So, you don't post and let me suffer the wrath of 95% of the Landstill thread? lol j/k

You don't need to read the Landstill thread if you know and tested long Landstill long enough.

[thefreakaccident]

I have to jump right on in with this conversation about counterbalance landstill...



The addition of counterbalance totally changes how the deck plays compared to other landstill decks...

I'll go over a few key differences about how the deck can play, as well as how different the MUs are...


1. Sensei's divining top...

This card allows us to go into overdrive control mode... when you finally run your opponent out of gas, you get to either draw the lands you want OR the control you want when you need it... It also makes a resolved standstill much more dangerous for an opponent (making landdrops until they break it is unbelievable)... Also... i have had situations where (against another control deck) I was able to force them into breaking my standstill and picking what i got to draw from it (fetch + top).

2.

With the simplicity of the deck (running 4 counterspell, 4 force of will, AND counterbalance), you run so much countermagic, even the best of opponents wont be able to resolve the cards they want to past turns 3-4... because you not only have the soft lock of counterbalance, you also have 8 hard counters (thresh only runs 4).... this puts you waaay ahead of anyone who wants to fight a counter war.

3.

Counterbalance itself:

Helps in several horrible MUs:

1. burn/zoo
- Being able to shut them down with one card and actually stabilizing is a pure miracle for regualr landstill (either running wish MD... or simply losing because of the burn)... this card makes the MU Imposible to win FOR THEM... it changes a horrible MU into a fantastic MU... Anyways... lets move on to some others:

2. combo
-lets be totally honest... regular landstill gets pooped on by quicker combo every day... even the early countermagic only prevents the inevitable in this MU... BUT what if you had a card to lock them entirely out of the game, and therefore put them into an unwinnable situation... IF ONLY there were a card out there... OH YEAH! Counterbalance. This and some cards in the board can allow you so much hate towards a combo deck, it becomes their worst nightmare.

3. Agro loam
- A good agro loam pilot walks over a good landstill pilot any day of the week... whether its just their ability to rape the landbase (wasteland/loam or just devastating dreams)... or they just spit out a crapton of threats/ get a lot of CA (loam/dark confidant/crusher)... Landstill can only do so much against the recursive nature of the deck (witness sometimes, stronghold and loam primarily... also the wish board can get annoying)...

COUNTERBALANCE and top both change this MU... allowing you to dig more than traditional landstill builds (top) to find solutions, or shutting down a large portion of their cards (counterbalance @2), and then allowing you to find ways to deal with the few and far in between threats... This MU is actually much different than it was for regular landstill.

I wont even talk about what this card does to the mirror... its sad really.

There are a few more decks I could list, but i think you guys probably get the point.


Honestly... I was skeptical of his list too... until he convinced me to actually try it.

This is the best deck in the format, you just need to learn how to play it, and test it for yourselves... and you will see that we speak the truth.

[chysn]

I put CounterTop in my Landstill build a while ago. Eventually, I tried Predict in place of Standstill, and I really like it.

You almost always know what's coming next, thanks to Brainstorm, Counterbalance, Top (and even Academy Ruins). You net one card with Predict instead of two, but you're still digging three cards deep, and it's easy to dump redundant Tops and Counterbalances from the top of the library.

Also, you can play Predict in an unfavorable board position, or at the end of an opponent's turn. And sometimes you'll take an opponent's Enlightened Tutor by surprise.

[DragoFireheart]

Why NOW are people starting to talk about Counter-Top in a Landstill deck? Why not before? What has changed since a year ago?

I would have figured most decks would have implemented Counter-Top if they were running blue.

[chysn]

I would have figured most decks would have implemented Counter-Top if they were running blue.

Well, it's seven or eight slots, so there's a certain amount of commitment there that might not be appropriate for everything with blue. For example, CounterTop would dilute Merfolk's game plan.

Personally, I don't see CounterTop as belonging in Landstill. Don't get me wrong, it can be successful and fun to play; but I think that once you have both Counterbalance and Sensei's Divining Top, then Predict becomes marginally better than Standstill, and then it's no longer a Landstill deck.

[rsaunder]

I think people are exaggerating countertop's power in landstill, especially against combo. Against them it's a 2-card combo, which doesn't provide a hard lock, especially post-board. By it's self, CB's really not that powerful. The more I work with the incarnation of the deck I'm playing, the more I'm starting to feel Geoff's style would shine. I'm not ready to run less than 2 top, but I'm going to be doing some work with hate-bears out of the board and see how the clock affects the AdN matchup.

[Jason]

I'm not ready to run less than 2 top, but I'm going to be doing some work with hate-bears out of the board and see how the clock affects the AdN matchup.

I'm not the best combo player as I've just started getting into it, but I know I am much more annoyed by Meddling Mage on Tendrils than anything else. It is possible to play around Counterbalance+Top. Leading out with a Silence/Chant, I hope you have to flip Top to counter it. If you do, I can cast a bunch of Rituals in response and have enough mana to just win. With Meddling Mage online, I have to answer it before I can win and it makes how I win much more specific (as Ad-Nauseum is less good after taking some blows to the face).

That's just my personal feeling on the Counterbalance argument for the combo match-up.

[Nidd]

I think MM on ToA is worse than Gaddock Teeg. Seriously, I can kill you with either EtW or with ToA. A MM on ToA alone doesn't solve the problem. Teeg solves both. but then again, you would need a MM on Burning Wish, to lock the combo player completely out of the game.
But even then, some people will tutor up for their Grapeshot or a bounce.

[rsaunder]

I think MM on ToA is worse than Gaddock Teeg. Seriously, I can kill you with either EtW or with ToA. A MM on ToA alone doesn't solve the problem. Teeg solves both. but then again, you would need a MM on Burning Wish, to lock the combo player completely out of the game.
But even then, some people will tutor up for their Grapeshot or a bounce.Teeg sounds like a terrible idea in a deck where it shuts off the strongest parts of its draw engine, some of the counter suite, and EE. Not many people splash green either. If I were going the hate-bear route it would probably be with 3 Earthsworn cannonist and 3 MM.

[Hanni]

I run CB/Top MD, MM SB, so I get the best of both worlds.

Mossivo, I'll be responding to your last post in just a few minutes.

[Hanni]

OMFG, I just spent 2 hours typing out a reply to Mossivo, and when I clicked on post, it came out with 0 words. WTF?!

Don't tell me I have to write that whole thing out again...

EDIT: Well, this post isn't as detailed as it was the first time, but since this is the second time I had to reply to it, I took alot of shortcuts on my responses.

First, I want to post what I think is your latest list, Mossivo, so that I have something to cross-reference to:

4 flooded strand
2 Marsh Flats
4 Tundra
1 und sea
1 scrub
3 island
3 plains
3 mishra
1 dustbowl
1 academy ruins

4 force
4 snare
2 c.s

3 top
3 standstill
3 brainstorm

4 stp
3 ee
2 wrath
1 humility
1 path
1 disk

3 decree
2 elspeth

2 cunning wish

sb:
1 pulse
1 pate
1 ray of dist
1 e tutor
2 path
2 relic
3 EP
3 CB
1 cow


I'm not questioning the legitimacy of your playtesting at all or the ammount of time so much. I'm questioning the legitimacy of your Results against matchups/ actual tournament results.

I don’t have tournament results because I cannot play in tournaments. If this is a problem for you, there is nothing that I can do.


You keep mentioning how if you take out vial in the equation of said aggro matchup it becomes alot easier (if you force, etc.) Obviously if you take the single best anti-control card out of the equation then all of a sudden the matchups you face are going to substantially change. Now keep in mind that most match-ups that are played with vial are won and lost based on how well the opponent can either deal with vial or die from it. The reality? You have 2 oblivian ring and 4 force to stop it main deck and a post board where you add in 2 additional rings and a wrath. This isn't substantially changing any aggro match-up you face.

Also mentioned in here was D-Stompy. This deck is virtually an auto-bye for most landstill variants color intensive on the black splash or not. Dragon Stompy has been proven over and over again to be a glass-cannon so bringing it up really makes no sense or difference in regards to such a favorable match-up.

Most of the time when I lose to Goblins, it’s because I didn’t have an answer to turn 1 Lackey and they raced me. The other times that I lose are when they Matron/Ringleader/Wort into card advantage so that they overpower my Wrath of God’s. I’m not worried about the mana ramp on Vial; the only reason why it’s a problem for me is cause it shuts off some of my countermagic (they will still hardcast stuff) and Standstill. I run 2 Oblivion Ring, you run 3 EE. Not a signifcant difference, IMO.

Postboard, you’re all wrong. I gain 4 Blue Elemental Blast and 2 Path to Exile, giving me a total of 10 1cc spot removal spells, and my Goblins matchup becomes considerably better. They can’t keep a guy in play, I drop Elspeth, I win.

I still fail to see you how you have a significantly better Goblins matchup than me. You probably have a better game one because of Humility/Decree, but postboard, your Plagues are going to be difficult to cast through their Waste/Port when you only run 6 fetchlands and 2 dual lands that produce black, with less than 4/4 Brainstorm/Top to dig.

Maybe Dragon Stompy is an autoloss for you, but not for me. I care little about their Moon effects since I can kill Magus and even with the enchantment on board, I can still play through it. They run Chalice/Trini as their only other disruption, and a bunch of big guys that I run a ton of removal for. Preboard is probably 50/50… if they get a nuts draw I lose, if they don’t, I win. Postboard, the matchup gets a lot better.


The only reason I actually question your testing is because your playing cards that are generally just (fair) and actually very answerable. Cards like Oblivian ring and counterbalance when left unprotected are treated as soft locks and generally not fantastic answers. Only when counterbalance is diluted with an aggro control shell has it been proven to actually be successful. Even ITF is more an aggro control deck then a pure control deck. Also just to mention your ugb brainstorming is basically Team Canada made by Team Spod, most notably DIF. You should consider checking into that. I believe it's in the tournament report page of one of their last few tourneys.

How are my cards any less fair or any less answerable than yours? How are my answers any less fantastic than yours? Just because control decks don’t have tournament results to prove that they work with Counterbalance doesn’t mean they don’t, it means not enough (if anyone) is playing them for results to be proven. Why would a slow control card [Counterbalance] be good in aggro/control [Threshold] but not good in a slow control deck [Landstill]? None of the reasons you've given me make any sense. ITF is more of an aggro/control deck than we are? Come on now. That deck is slow as hell, Goyf or not. We’re more aggro/control than they are with 4 Factory and 2 Elspeth, if anything.


No. The reason I don't agree with counterbalance in the main-deck is because its just an improvement on decks that normal counterbalance based control already beats. While it does improve some match-ups it also hozes so many more matchups where counterbalance really isn't an issue; and because your not nearly as consistent at hitting you numbers or answers as say threshhold is I think you really arn't seeing the real picture. Landstill is not as a whole cannot be as redundant as decks like threshhold or dreadstill are which makes counterbalance less good and more dependant on cards that actually do something. Making Oblivian ring less efficient and more just another 3 drop that doesnt do enough. This list goes on and on.

Also going this route you cut the second best removal in the format (EE) which is virtually the backbone of why land still wins so many of it's match-ups with semi inevitability with Academy Ruins. My perception may be different but i've played my fair share of counterbalance in the main decks of land-still before. I've also tested thresh models extensively and White splash thresh for future reference is my pet deck, which is why I just generally disagree with your testing information, as aggro control handles vial a lot better then control handles it and even in those match ups it causes stress for those decks that actually have the correct efficient answers.

So running Counterbalance improves matchups against decks that Counterbalance beats? Huh?

So running Counterbalance improves some matchups and hoses some other ones? Isn’t that what I’ve been saying? I don’t understand what you’re getting at.

How am I any less consistent or redundant than Threshold? They run 4 extra cantrips, I run 4 Standstills. I’m also running a ton of 4-of’s, all of which do something similar to the other cards I’m running, like having 12 countermagic spells and 9 removal spells. You’re not making any sense. I don’t even get the last part of your paragraph, either.

I disagree with you. I don’t think that EE is the second best removal spell in the format. Also, if you’re winning a lot of matchups with RuinsEE lock, you might be doing something wrong. You run 1 Ruins and absolutely no way to tutor for it. You should be winning most games before this lock occurs. Both RuinsEE lock and CounterTop lock are both disruptable, but I’d rather win with a CounterTop lock than a RuinsEE lock.

White Threshold does answer Vial better, with Qasali Pridemage and/or Trygon Predator maindeck. So what you are saying is that Vial alone makes Counterbalance obsolete in every deck besides white Threshold? I disagree.


because you have none. You've been testing this deck against the meta-game for six months yet you have few answers to common questions that are going to be stresses to the arch type as a whole. You have cut ee, upped the slow removal count: and yet because you run counterbalance: practically bleed that it does enough to rip the aggro match ups in this current meta to be a successful sub arch type. Well i'm sorry Mr. Magoo but i'm calling your bluff on this one. I've done the same testing as you with a much stronger aggressive game-plan oriented deck against the same aggro decks and i've come up short. I don't see how you with a much more reactive
game and slightly less efficient are coming up with better results.

I don’t have tournament results because I cannot play in tournaments. If this matters that much to you, and tosses so much of my credibility out of the window for you, why are you bothering to play this objection/rebuttal process with me then?

I’ve cut EE and upped the slow removal? How is EE not slow removal? Oblivion Ring =/= EE. You run Nevinyrral’s Disk, how is that not slow removal? The only thing I see is 1 extra Path to Exile main in your deck in comparison to mine.

The metagame has become more of an aggro metagame lately, isn’t that supposed to be a good thing for us? Last time I checked, Landstill has a great aggro matchup.

Counterbalance does tear a lot of aggro matchups apart. Zoo and Goyf Sligh are directly affected. Tempo Thresh and CounterTop Thresh are also affected. The only matchups that are not significantly affected are the Vial based ones, and even against Merfolk, Counterbalance is still mediocre.

Regardless, I have a retarded amount of removal in my sideboard to bring in for games 2 and 3 against aggro.


No but actually testing against pilots who know their perspective decks at the top tables and winning against them versus sleev-ing up and battling over a kitchen/ local FNM table makes a world of difference. Include m.w.s testing in this kitchen table category.
Quote:
When Landstill can consistently 2-0 matchups like Aggro Loam and Burn against various opponent's, it must be more than simply "I got lucky" or "my competition doesn't know what the hell they are doing."
Here in lies the problem. Aggro loam is favorable and burn is 40-50 % based on side-boarding and burn main deck differences. These match ups are roughly favorable anyways.

If you think Aggro Loam is favorable, then I question your legitimacy. Aggro Loam is a horrible matchup for Landstill. I realize you run 3 CB/3 Top postboard to improve this, but even then, I don’t see you winning a 2/3 set against Aggro Loam more than you lose to it without running CB/Top in the main.

Against Burn, the only way you’re winning game one is if you draw into one of your two Cunning Wish’s and cast a Pulse before they kill you. Not only is that not going to happen often enough, you’re also going to have to get Pulse off before your dead. I’m not seeing you winning many g1’s against Burn. In games 2/3, you have 3 CB/Top, but even then, that’s still a crutch for you, and I don’t see you winning a 2/3 set more often than you lose a 2/3 set. The same goes for Goyf Sligh.


fyi counterbalance should be sweet in the d stompy match up once resolved. Once you lock it on 3-4 your basicly winning. Though I would imagine your stompy matchup is still tough as you dont have ee for challice and you run more fetches the most people in the landstill thread.

There are only 7 4cc spells for Counterbalance, so it’s difficult to get one on top. It’s not an ideal card here… but like almost every matchup, Counterbalance is never completely dead and has at least some use (i.e at least Mediocre against almost every matchup).

I don’t have EE for Chalice but I do have Oblivion Ring. I might run more fetchlands, but I also run more basics. I’m not really worried about their Moon effects.


fyi tempo thresh is largely a favorable match up already. Also you keep mentioning this simply amazing manabase that you run of 2 additional fetches and 2 less duals with 0 land disruption and 1 additional island. This isn't more stable. It's possibly statistically more efficient but you forget that stifle is a major part of this format is blue and most of it is blue aggro control decks which most good ones happen to pack stifle. This is actually the entire reason why decks don't go nuts on the fetches anymore (besides perhaps zoo) Keep in mind that you also are still susceptible to wasteland as you run 8 non-basics so your deffinately not anywhere near out of the water, you just changed your poisons. Personally i'd rather lose a land to wasteland then to stifle, but thats just me :)

I run 2 extra fetchlands but I run 1 extra basic, 1 less colorless land, and 2 less dual lands. I also run 1 extra Brainstorm and 1 extra Top. I may give up more susceptibility to Stifle, which may generate more tempo for them than more vulnerability to Wasteland, but that’s just a necessary evil. 8 fetchlands has more synergy with my Brainstorm/Top to not run them because a few decks run Stifle. Not all Landstill decks are running 6 basics like you are, anyway.


No but they plan on playing counterbalance and rhox? How does this make any sense at all?

What I meant was that Thresh wants to constantly curve out early, playing creatures, Counterbalance, and cantrips. They don’t want to hold UU open to cast Counterspell. That’s why they run Daze instead of Counterspell.


because those decks are made to combat the other aggro control decks and combo decks much better then we can. Daze is universally not a counter for landstill because the idea of landstill is not that daze isn't a control card (it was played in Tog and remains one of the best tempo hozers in the game.) It's because the core of landstill forces it to not miss land drops. This is why cards that reduce the chances of you missing land-drops are amazing in landstill. It's not that your winning games on the back of counterbalance. It's that counterbalance is allowing you additional time to stall out games until you hit the later game. While that is exceptional in matchups that don't have a primary focus such as aggro loam or even pikula, or rock, in landstill the primary focus is to make it to turn four. Once you make it to turn four and hit your fourth land drop the game is substantially in your favor against a good portion of the current format. Against other decks like burn or combo this is not true and this is why im saying its a sideboard card. Its good in some matchups but its not relivent enough against the majority of the format (which ive tested against.)

White thresh older (2-3 months) ran a single highlander counter spell so it's not exactly apples to oranges and the same principle philosophy belongs to the control shell of both decks. Stop the opponent from doing crazy shit and procede to do what your deck does best, ala control. It's more like aggressive strategy versus reactive strategy. And at the end of the day I guess you could say my play is more aggresive then yours and I don't need to play a counter wall with 15 counters and 2 threats. FYI your threats arn't inevitable like they were back when MUC was good, and the format knows it. Which makes your attempt at overcontrolling the format/matchups even more awkward.

I agree, aggro/control has a better combo matchup. They have extra early disruption with Daze (for the turn 1 combo’s), and a faster clock. That doesn’t mean we don’t have a good combo matchup.

You missed my point. I never said we should run Daze. You were saying that Counterspell was bad in Landstill by comparing Counterspell in Threshold, so I flipped the argument around and asked why we don’t run Daze since Threshold does.

I actually do win games on the back of Counterbalance. Sometimes I win with CounterTop lock, other games I win because I put them so far behind that they can’t come back.

Turn 4, or rather 4 lands in play, is our sweet spot, I agree. That doesn’t mean we automatically win every game that we get that far in, though.


no we play stp because its the best removal spell in the format, we don't play goyf because we can't abuse it like a control shell can with even more redundancy than we can possibly contribute to said idea of a perfect 75.

You missed my point again. I never said we should play Goyf. I was explaining why you cannot compare Threshold’s Goyf’s to our Counterspells.


Im not even going to get into this. Im just going to say that I personally believe that if threshhold gets counterbalance rolling, its better then if you can do it. Your answers are few, and you dont run EE.

Also this 2cc argument. you run 4 counterspell 4 standstill and 4 counterbalance. Thats 12 2cc spells. I run 5, sometimes less but generally 5. Don't tell me your not substantially more resiliant to spell snare or daze. your hardly ever going to play a matchup where you dont play against mix of daze snare stifle and wasteland, some matchups run all of those cards, and all of those cards give you problems. also just nuetralize force because they run it as well so the chances are approximately equal.

How does Threshold use CounterTop better than I do? Most Threshold lists these days are using a similar 1cc/2cc curve, and how do they have more answers than me because I don’t run EE? I don’t understand what you mean.

I didn’t know what your decklist looked like when I made that 2cc comparison. So you run 5 2cc spells, with 3 EE’s that can potentially be 2cc. So yes, I am more susceptible to Spell Snare. I fail to see how that makes me any more susceptible to Daze than you are, though.

[rsaunder]

OMFG, I just spent 2 hours typing out a reply to Mossivo, and when I clicked on post, it came out with 0 words. WTF?!

Don't tell me I have to write that whole thing out again...When you're going that long dude, at least save it to your clipboard. If not write it on a word document.

[Omega]

I just wanted to point out that MM naming Tendrils is always key. If you can force them to combo with Empty the Warrens, you can come out of this victorious. Landstill, in most list, runs mass removals in the form of EE and WOG. It should be too hard to answer ETW. On the other hand, a lethal TOA cannot be prevented after it occurs

Robert

[Ectoplasm]

What's up with everybody naming ToA with meddling mage? What's there to prevent them from just getting a bounce after going wild with AN and casting tendrils after?
I'd rather put it on duress, followed by chant followed by sandbagging all my counters while curbstomping him with 2/2 mages.

[Hanni]

I tend to name their tutors, like Infernal Tutor, Mystical Tutor or Burning Wish. Shutting down tutors works well in 2 ways. First, it prevents them from using the tutor to combo, making it harder to go off. Second, it defeats the purpose for them to use a tutor to find a bounce/removal spell for it. It's just another annoyance to their combo'ing, which buys you time, until you can establish more control, or simply win the game with aggro beats.

That's just how I play it, though. I have both MM and CBT postboard vs combo, so I'm already at overkill.

[Ranarion]

Hanni, have you considered Jace as carddraw? With 4 Top, 4 BS and 8 fetchlands he should be better than Fact or Fiction. In addition his manacosts of 3 are not too bad for Counterbalance (you said the cc of Fact or Fiction were a reason not to play this card in your build). I played him for a long time in Landstill and against some decks he was a very good win condition (against AngelStax for example) which saved me many games. Or is that additional card draw really not needed?

[Ectoplasm]

I have both MM and CBT postboard vs combo, so I'm already at overkill.

I ran 4x MM, 2x runed halo and 3x ethersworn canonist for a while which was fun :)

[Hanni]

Hanni, have you considered Jace as carddraw? With 4 Top, 4 BS and 8 fetchlands he should be better than Fact or Fiction. In addition his manacosts of 3 are not too bad for Counterbalance (you said the cc of Fact or Fiction were a reason not to play this card in your build). I played him for a long time in Landstill and against some decks he was a very good win condition (against AngelStax for example) which saved me many games. Or is that additional card draw really not needed?

I did consider running Jace in my sideboad a while back, to bring in to replace Standstill against decks like Dreadstill and Merfolk. In the end, I just didn't feel it was worth it. You don't really wanna lower your 2cc curve against Dreadstill, so your typically bringing in Meddling Mage in place of Standstill. Still decent against Merfolk, but that makes it so narrow that there are better sideboard options (like Path to Exile).

With so few 3cc spells in the deck, adding 1 more doesn't give the deck a consistent enough 3 drop slot for Counterbalance, so it's not even worth it as far as the Counterbalance curve goes.

I suppose you could drop 1 Standstill for 1 Jace in the maindeck, especially if you plan on playing Vial heavy metagames, so I suppose it's worth testing. Typically though, Counterbalance already generates enough card advantage alonside everything else that it's not really needed.


I ran 4x MM, 2x runed halo and 3x ethersworn canonist for a while which was fun :)

That just seems like redundant/narrow overkill though. With CBT/Mage, you've got versatile answers to more than just combo. Runed Halo is versatile too, but I couldn't see myself bringing in Ethersworn for any other matchup besides combo.

[Ectoplasm]

That's why I don't run it anymore, but it was fun whenever it faced combo :D

[shaneswa]

I dont think that we will have to devote too much sb to combo here in the near future. With the rule changes in m10 and mindbreak trap in zen. It seems to me that wizards has just hosed combo.

[mossivo1986]

Thats not true and The track is only TRULY usefull if you already have the answer for chant and or duress.

[Shawn]

What's up with everybody naming ToA with meddling mage? What's there to prevent them from just getting a bounce after going wild with AN and casting tendrils after?


I do this for several reasons when I'm playing against TES:

Naming Tendrils means they will almost always have to answer it before going off. If you name a tutor, they still will have six other ways to find Tendrils, and they could also cantrip into it or draw into it. I can't counter Tendrils, but I can stop the tutors. I have eight counters main, and after sideboard I have ten that can counter Burning Wish, (Blue Blasts) and nine that can counter Mystical Tutor (Extirpate). I'd rather not take my chances and name a card they might not have in hand and not necessarily need to win instead of naming their win-condition.

I feel naming Ad Nauseum is unnecessary, since and early Meddling Mage and just a single Mishra's Factory can weaken it tremendously. This plus counter-magic and Wastelands can put them under a lot of pressure and force them to go off before they want to. Also, since Mage attacking weakens ADN it decreases the chances of them drawing enough cards to make Grapeshot lethal.


I don't think game one is very good against TES, but if you mulligan aggressively games two and three it's very winnable.

[mossivo1986]

Updated list:


// Lands
1 [B] Underground Sea
1 [B] Scrubland
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [B] Tundra
3 [GUR] Island
3 [GUR] Plains
3 [JGC] Mishra's Factory
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
1 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
1 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant

// Spells
3 [SC] Decree of Justice
1 [TE] Humility
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
3 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [OD] Standstill
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [B] Wrath of God
1 [B] Nevinyrral's Disk
2 [FNM] Counterspell
1 [CFX] Path to Exile

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [CS] Counterbalance
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
SB: 1 [OD] Ray of Distortion
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague

[Ectoplasm]

Only 2 black producing lands and only 2 ways to fetch them? What about 3-2-1 strand/flats/delta? Less randomness.

I'm using 3-2-1 at least and I run 2 black duals and a basic swamp.

[Elf_Ascetic]

Only 2 black producing lands and only 2 ways to fetch them? What about 3-2-1 strand/flats/delta? Less randomness.

I'm using 3-2-1 at least and I run 2 black duals and a basic swamp.

Are you aware that Strand gets Sea and Scrubland? I agree on Moss' colored manabase.

Moss, did you test with 3 Elspeths? You should try it, so far it has been great for me. (I run 3 Elspeth and 1 Decree, netto gaining 1 slot).

[NQN]

Since Elspeth rarely(read:never) dies, is three really necessary?
I only have 2 signed-simchin, please don´t go up to three :D

[Mark Sun]

Since Elspeth rarely(read:never) dies, is three really necessary?
I only have 2 signed-simchin, please don´t go up to three :D

I have been good with running 2. Not sure what the new Hexmage will do to Planeswalkers (and other related counter-based permanents) though.

[rsaunder]

I have been good with running 2. Not sure what the new Hexmage will do to Planeswalkers (and other related counter-based permanents) though.

I won't be worried about that 'till Zoo stops being played. Hexmage requires a very devoted black manabase and aggro-control shell, which means a bye for zoo every time it gets played. Goblins is getting a power boost, so Zoo will gain popularity in order to combat it. Black disruption.dec loses to both of these options, and even the next deck in the cycle (combo gaining popularity to combat aggro) isn't an easy matchup for decks like that. if it does, run a list with 4x spell snare and maybe divert in the SB. Alongside SDT, this deck is brutal against black aggro-control. We might lose one or two elspeths in the random match we should win anyway, but I really don't see it being a problem.

Still, I'll never change the 2/2 els./DoJ split. It's been too consistantly amazing.

[Ectoplasm]

Are you aware that Strand gets Sea and Scrubland? I agree on Moss' colored manabase.

Moss, did you test with 3 Elspeths? You should try it, so far it has been great for me. (I run 3 Elspeth and 1 Decree, netto gaining 1 slot).

Of course :tongue:
Guess I got a bit confused by the lack of a basic swamp there even though I even noted it :rolleyes:

[mossivo1986]

Yes I tested 3 Elspeth, Knight-Errant. I am choosing to run he 3rd Decree of Justice for a multitude of reasons. Not only is it superior to virtually every other card in the mirror (outside of direct hate IE: Telemin's performance, which I obviously wouldn't do under the current metagame.) While I agree that the 3rd Elspeth, Knight-Errant is a good choice I think a variety of match ups come down to using Decree in the mid-game.

As far as my Land is concerned this is probobly the most refined and safe I've fealt in a long time. After testing Marsh Flats and picking up a copy IRL I feel like if your not running equal portions with Delta you should consider it in white heavy versions.

[paK0]

U/W Counterbalance Landstill
Kaezurstill

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [U] Tundra
4 [7E] Island (3)
3 [P3] Plains (2)
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)

// Spells
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [ST] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
3 [REW] Wrath of God
2 [ALA] Oblivion Ring

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [REW] Wrath of God
SB: 2 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
SB: 4 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 4 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage

The 1 WoG in the sideboard could potentially be 1 Humility.

Most recent list?
From all the 2-colour stuff ive seen so far this semms like the most solid.

Whats the reason for no Eternal Dragon, you just don't like him or is it something more in-depht?

Did you ever feel like you have too much counter?
8 Hardcounter + 4 Balance seem a lot to me, I didn't test (I guess you did) but at first glance I'd cut 1 or two counterspells for something else.

The list seems to be really straightforward, I actually like it, but did you miss some tech cards at some point?

€dit:
1 more question:
I have no experience with the MU, how does this deck against Dragon Stompy and Chalice Aggro?

[rockout]

I have no experience with the MU, how does this deck against Dragon Stompy and Chalice Aggro?

Pray to draw your 2 of O Ring.

[FoulQ]

Speaking from a dragon stompy player's angle, the matchup is probably slightly in your favor. The more colors you play, the worse it gets (obv). Just remember that our primary goal is to moon your face.

[Ranarion]

The real threats in this MU are the Chalices. When you play seven basic lands you don't need to care about Bloodmoon (sometimes you have to counter the Magus because you cannot block him with a factory). And even if they can resolve a Chalice at 1 they need to play a beater quickly too (which they can't do consistently because the deck ist inconsistent as hell). But you can use your Wrath for one creature and still gain some cardadvantage. After a few turns they don't have any cards in their hand and when you reach this point it is hard to loose. I played this MU a dozen times before Elspeth were tournament legal and she mades the MU even better. Even if Hanni's version plays no Engineered Explosives which are very good against Dragonstompy (kill their moxen and Chalices) I think it's a better MU for you than for the DS-player.
I can't imagine how they could beat you without Chalice 1. And they don't play any carddraw to find their Chalices.

[Citrus-God]

Just so everybody knows, Dragon Stompy tends to win if it has an ultra-explosive opening, otherwise it just loses. If it doesnt fuck you over or present efficient problems to you in the first 2-3 Turns, Dragon Stompy just loses. Also, in order for DS is able to do this is fan open a good grip or mull into oblivion. Giving Landstill 1-2 Turns is awful, because they'll get enough cards to wail on you. Also, now that Landstill is running Spell Snare, if they're on the Play, you're extra screwed when you play Chalice. If you play anything else, they can probably find ways to work around it. Also, your match up here gets better with Moon effects if they dont run Eternal Dragon. Just remember that the best openings for this deck is def Blood Moon or something bat shit insane.

[NQN]

To sum up: You rarely will loose more than 1 game (due to nutzdraw) per match. On top of that, DS is merely played => Absolutely no reason to be afraid:smile:

[mossivo1986]

Why are we talking about dragon stompy?

Let's continue on with matchups that are actually relivent to the meta-game at hand. Heck i'd even settle for a question on testing against dream halls. :)


Anyways after some extensive testing and My team-mate Gustah:
sb:
-2 Relic
-1 Path
+1 Counterbalance
+1 Engineered Plague
+1 Blue Elemental blast


So the side should look like this
1 Pulse
1 Path
1 Extirpate
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ray of Distortion
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Crucible of worlds
4 Counterbalance
4 Engineered Plague

[Mark Sun]

<snip>

No GY hate at all?

Is Ray of Distortion really that effective?

[gustha]

No GY hate, you're right.
We wanted to follow Hanni's and Citrus-God's suggestion that GY hate is really not needed when you have the combination of the cb top engine, 6 to 8 stp effects, and possibily some meddling mage :tongue:

@ray of distortion: is always good to have a disenchant effect ready-to-use. Evades cb? Check. Reusable? Check. Don't think it needs more explanations. Not running wish nor vindicate in the list below, I prefer a d. blow MD.
Here's what I'm going to play sunday. Don't blame me, I've been busy with exams and I've got 0 or near testing, I just wanted to go straight UW-x control. I post the entire list only to look at the sideboard (some choices are not auto-explanatory), just because it is more or less a wish version without wish and wishboard (and so some considerations on the sb are close to those of moss). Let's jump to the sb:

// Lands
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [UNH] Plains
4 [UNH] Island
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [U] Tundra
1 [R] Underground Sea
1 [R] Scrubland
1 [MM] Dust Bowl

// Spells
3 [ALA] Elspeth Knight-Errant
2 [M10] Jace Beleren
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [5E] Nevinyrral's Disk
3 [OD] Standstill
2 [CFX] Path to Exile
3 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [4E] Counterspell
2 [TE] Humility
1 [IN] Dismantling Blow

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [M10] Jace Beleren
SB: 2 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 4 [CS] Counterbalance
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [ARB] Meddling Mage
SB: 1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds

1 jace: maybe it's just overkill against dreadstill and landstill (3 elspeth 2 jace md, 1 crucible 4 counterbalance sb, + mage in the mirror match). Don't really know.

2 path: having a total of 8 stp effects post-sb amuses me!

4 counterbalance: want to try this out (@Hanni/Citrus/Wasteland: I put down some considerations on the MU's I bring cb in but I feel I need more insights. Any other considerations on this topic would be appreciated, feel free to PM me :smile: ). 4 is the right number, even in the mirror match (the more snareable things, the more probability to resolve at least one of them).

3 Engineered plague: I can consider the 4th, but 8 stp + 2 humility +3 EE should be enough, considering that snare is quite good against merfolks, and will probably become good against goblins due to insitigator costing 2. 3 is fine atm.

4 Meddling mage: good to pair with cb in lots of Mu, from combo to burn to the mirror, to ichorid, to aggroloam, to stax...Welcome back after long, MM.

1 Crucible: again, not sure on this, I just feel it's more a dead card than not.

I certainly miss vindicate, but I think i'll have no time to complain in straight 8 swiss rounds (I hope!) :smile:

[Atog]

4 Meddling mage: good to pair with cb in lots of Mu, from combo to burn to the mirror, to ichorid, to aggroloam, to stax...Welcome back after long, MM.


What you name against loam and in mirror? Against loam if we get countertop online, and 2cc top of deck that is almost gg. Do we name Burning wish or Lftl if we don't have countertop going?

[gustha]

What you name against loam and in mirror? Against loam if we get countertop online, and 2cc top of deck that is almost gg. Do we name Burning wish or Lftl if we don't have countertop going?

It obviously depend on the game situation. Against the mirror we can name crucible, elspeth or wincons (assumed we have already them in play), EE or other ways they have to get rid of a resolved counterbalance. Much more useful to stall o steal a counter, though. Against Loam it buys some time to get countertop online. I name seismic assault, krosan grip or worm harvest if they had the time to wish for it, sometimes maesltrom pulse. The rest should be managed by countertop and stp. Loam only if I don't see countertop.

[Atog]

It obviously depend on the game situation. Against the mirror we can name crucible, elspeth or wincons (assumed we have already them in play), EE or other ways they have to get rid of a resolved counterbalance. Much more useful to stall o steal a counter, though. Against Loam it buys some time to get countertop online. I name seismic assault, krosan grip or worm harvest if they had the time to wish for it, sometimes maesltrom pulse. The rest should be managed by countertop and stp. Loam only if I don't see countertop.

Thanks for clarification. Do you side out standstills in mirror or leave some in? Just thought if you side in 4x MM and crucible(?), do you side out wraths and standstill or couple?

[Mark Sun]

No GY hate, you're right.
We wanted to follow Hanni's and Citrus-God's suggestion that GY hate is really not needed when you have the combination of the cb top engine, 6 to 8 stp effects, and possibily some meddling mage :tongue:

@ray of distortion: is always good to have a disenchant effect ready-to-use. Evades cb? Check. Reusable? Check. Don't think it needs more explanations. Not running wish nor vindicate in the list below, I prefer a d. blow MD.

Makes good sense. Thanks for clearing things up, gustha. I figured Ray was for that, but whether it was practical for the :4::w::w: cost was more or less my question, haha.

[Citrus-God]

// Lands
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [UNH] Plains
4 [UNH] Island
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [U] Tundra
1 [R] Underground Sea
1 [R] Scrubland
1 [MM] Dust Bowl

// Spells
3 [ALA] Elspeth Knight-Errant
2 [M10] Jace Beleren
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [5E] Nevinyrral's Disk
3 [OD] Standstill
2 [CFX] Path to Exile
3 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [4E] Counterspell
2 [TE] Humility
1 [IN] Dismantling Blow

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [M10] Jace Beleren
SB: 2 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 4 [CS] Counterbalance
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [ARB] Meddling Mage
SB: 1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds

Your sideboard doesnt need Meddling Mages. I think you should replace the MMs with better cards that combat other match ups. Perhaps Negate? Negate would hypothetically do a lot more against decks like Aggro Loam or Landstill, compared to that of MM.

I also suggest you run Wastelands in the maindeck, in place of a Factory, Bowl and a Dismantling Blow. Definitely an underrated card. Especially in the mirror and against Dreadstill. I think that this card is what helps you most under Standstill. Also, against Merfolk, this is the card that keeps you alive in the midgame when Mutavaults start getting nutty.

I also question Humilities and Disks too... Like, chances are, you will board these cards out often. Why not bring WoG back? You will definitely keep them in maindeck more often than not. How about

-2 Humility
-1 Disk
-1 EE

+2 WoG
+2 Vindicate


1 jace: maybe it's just overkill against dreadstill and landstill (3 elspeth 2 jace md, 1 crucible 4 counterbalance sb, + mage in the mirror match). Don't really know.

Two Jace is more than enough. Against Dreadstill and Landstill, you're better off running other cards, like say, more CoWs.... however, CoWs are only good if you run maindeck Wastelands.

4
counterbalance: want to try this out (@Hanni/Citrus/Wasteland: I put down some considerations on the MU's I bring cb in but I feel I need more insights. Any other considerations on this topic would be appreciated, feel free to PM me :smile: ). 4 is the right number, even in the mirror match (the more snareable things, the more probability to resolve at least one of them).

Dropping these bad boys in the mirror is brutal. You have no idea how butt hurt the opponent gets trying to remove these. Casting EE is slightly harder for them is harder too.


4 Meddling mage: good to pair with cb in lots of Mu, from combo to burn to the mirror, to ichorid, to aggroloam, to stax...Welcome back after long, MM.

You know, now that I think about it, with Counterbalance, Runed Halo is a lot better than MM in almost all scenarios against those decks you want to work on. Runed Halos keep you protected from Therapies and Ichorids, keeps you protected from Vores and keeps you protected from PoP and other Zoo goodies. Also, you can board Halos in against Tempo Thresh.


1 Crucible: again, not sure on this, I just feel it's more a dead card than not.

Yes, and no. CoWs are really good against Merfolk (if you run Wasteland and they run mana denial).

[whiteshepherdman]

I've been playing runed halo instead of cop:red since its too narrow and runed halo has helped me considerably against my sligh and tempo thresh matchup. Do you guys think there's anything i should tweak in my sb to make our more difficult matchups stronger?

1 Eternal Dragon
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Nevinyrral’s Disk
3 Standstill
3 Vindicate
3 Wrath of God
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Decree of Justice
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Fact or Fiction
2 Wasteland
3 Mishra’s Factory
1 Academy Ruins
1 Tolaria West
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Underground Sea
2 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp

sideboard:
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 negate
3 path to exile
2 Blue elemental blast
2 spell snare
2 runed halo

[Hanni]

To whoever I said I run into problems against Chalice @ 1:

I run 12 1cc spells. That's not a little bit. Against the decks that run Chalice, 1cc spells rarely matter. Dragon Stompy is a solid matchup.

Postboard, 4 Oblivion Rings easily answer what they need to answer.


4 counterbalance: want to try this out (@Hanni/Citrus/Wasteland: I put down some considerations on the MU's I bring cb in but I feel I need more insights. Any other considerations on this topic would be appreciated, feel free to PM me ). 4 is the right number, even in the mirror match (the more snareable things, the more probability to resolve at least one of them).

Honestly, Counterbalance has a use in just about every matchup. Some matchups it has less uses (like Goblins), but it's never a dead card. That's why I play CounterTop maindeck.

However, as far as the matchups it's best against:

Goyf Sligh
Burn
Combo (almost all forms)

Zoo
Aggro Loam
Threshold variants

Mirror
Control variants

Plenty more, but those are some basics. Like I said, it's never dead against anything, highly effective against most decks, mediocre against a few, and bad against... nothing?

If you want more info about it, just PM me. I'd love to help you playtest so you can understand why I believe Counterbalance maindeck is beyond amazing.


Your sideboard doesnt need Meddling Mages.

Meddling Mage is a great sideboard card. It answers alot of different shit and provides a 2cc 2/2 clock. It's blue so it pitches to FoW and maintains the 2cc curve for Counterbalance. Why do you think Meddling Mage isn't needed?


I've been playing runed halo instead of cop:red since its too narrow and runed halo has helped me considerably against my sligh and tempo thresh matchup. Do you guys think there's anything i should tweak in my sb to make our more difficult matchups stronger?

Countertop > Runed Halo. CounterTop > CoP: Red. Seriously.

[NQN]

"You know, now that I think about it, with Counterbalance, Runed Halo is a lot better than MM in almost all scenarios against those decks you want to work on. Runed Halos keep you protected from Therapies and Ichorids, keeps you protected from Vores and keeps you protected from PoP and other Zoo goodies. Also, you can board Halos in against Tempo Thresh."

Why do you think so? Now that we can finally protect him and therefor aren´t forced to first name the removalspell, why is halo better NOW?

[Ectoplasm]

I hate how this thread has degraded from healthy discussion to people trying to prove their deck is the best :(

[gustha]

Without any intention of flame (seriously), but sincerely, I think what degrades threads in advanced sections are mono-line posts with nothing to say about the discussions that are already running, or have something new to point out.
That said, I think no one wants to use the thread as a way to prove its version of landstill is the best: those who are already famous or skilled pilots/deckbuilders don't give a shit about more credit (and are happy if no one at tournaments plays their same list, if that's so strong); those who are not are just trying to improve. As far as Hanni or counterbalance landstill is concerned (I intended that your critic was headed to that), I don't think he's trying to prove his list is far superior to everybody's, he's just trying to answer the critics that has been moved towards his approach, and he is completely justified to do it, even more as he doesn't seem to do it in an arrogant way.

As for counterbalance, it's not the first time I pay it in the sb, but last time I tested it (4 cb +3 mm +2 halo) was not at all satisfied, but maybe there was an overall problem of deckbuilding (that was before path to exile being printed). I have always considered it a sb card and, while I see that hanni's approach have some good points to spend, I still think EE is the best removal suite I can use (EE conflicts with cb, I prefer md EE, so follows sb cb). After the tournamente I'd surely have some testing with md cb, and I'm waiting for the primer :tongue: Cb top is one of the strongest control suits in legacy, and I don't see a reason to inhibit its accesibility to one of the best control decks in legacy (which, incidentally, is able to generate CA on its own which is instead the weak point of decks like, e.g., dreadstill).

As far as it concerns runed halo, I express the same doubts as NQN and Hanni. I think MM is better than halo in this sb, just because counterbalance is good at protecting MM from removals, so it provides him a longer life than usual. Sure, Halo protects me from progenitus (as far as I can save halo from grip, ofc), and ichorids, while mage can chant therapies as well and stp's deal with ichorid. I don't know if tomorrow i'm going to play the 4/3/2 split again, it seems to me that the runed halo slot is pretty much covered by MM on one hand, and path to exile on the other. Still the room of jace to fill...

[Hanni]

"You know, now that I think about it, with Counterbalance, Runed Halo is a lot better than MM in almost all scenarios against those decks you want to work on.

It's not blue to pitch to Force of Will, and it's not a 2/2 to provide a clock. That's why Meddling Mage is a better option, IMO.

Meddling Mage vs Ichorid names Cabal Therapy first and foremost, thenDread Return, to keep them off of sac outlets. 8 StP effects keep them off of Imps, so they have 0 sac outlets. Then, you start hitting Ichorid's, so they have no beats, and no sac outlets. Then, Narcomoeba's are a 1/1 flyer, which are easily raced by Elspeth and/or 2/2 beats.


I hate how this thread has degraded from healthy discussion to people trying to prove their deck is the best :(

I'm not trying to prove a damn thing. If people don't like the hard work I put in to making Counterbalance work in Landstill, and making it a beast, then do what you do. If you do actually get around to testing the decklist I posted (U/W Counterbalace Landstill), then maybe you'd understand why I'm so adamant about it. I truly believe that U/W Counterbalance Landstill is the best deck in the format.

@ Gustha

I very much appreciate the kind words you have for me. When I first started posting my radical idea, I was black sheeped by the majority of the Landstill community. Now, people are starting to come around, an are slowly accepting it by adding it to their sideboards. I project that it will be maindecked by a large majority within the next 6 months. It just takes time for these kind of radical ideas to actually become reality.

[NQN]

Allright, I´ll give them a try in my SB and tell you what I`m thinking ab out them. Until now, Im everything but convinced, but maybe...

[Tinefol]

If I'd play C/B Landstill, I would consider running a maindeck mini tutorboard with 2-3 enlightened tutors.
You can grab top for cc1, standstill for cc2, crucible/o-ring for cc3, moat/humility for cc4, and future sight for cc5 (is nuts with top). Makes C/B worthwhile even if you don't have a top out yet.
And as you start running that and C/B, Predict becomes no worse than Standstill itself. If you drop Standstill, then its logical to drop Mishra's aswell, lower land count somewhat and play it like U/W Countertop Elspeth Control.

P.S. Just pondering, it is not by any means tested, although I've seen Enlightened Tutor + C/B + Landstill shell on deckcheck somewhere and PV & Zwi played that as well.

[whiteshepherdman]

hey guys, what would you consider to be landstill's most difficult matchups? apart from dredge

[rsaunder]

hey guys, what would you consider to be landstill's most difficult matchups? apart from dredge

Aggro loam or storm combo depending on the build

[Ectoplasm]

Combo, mostly because of your lack of pressure which gives them free reign to get all the duresses/chants they want and combo off without trouble.

Apart from that I'd say every matchup is pretty winnable, heck, combo and ichorid are hard but winnable as well, some hard ones are burn/sligh and merfolk can be a pain if they get the nuts.

[whiteshepherdman]

ah mmk thanks for the help guys

[Genericcactus]

With Zoo, Merfolk, and Countertop variants being the most popular decks in the format right now, it makes sense to me to drop the black splash and play red. Plague isn't as good against Merfolk as Firespout, which also shines in the Zoo matchup. The red splash also allows for REB in the board, which is good against both Merfolk and Countertop.

Here is the list I am considering running at the 5k.

UWr Landstill

4x Standstill
4x FoW
4x Brainstorm
3x Counterspell
3x Spell Snare
3x Fact or Fiction

4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Humility
3x Firespout
3x EE

2x Decree of Justice
2x Elspeth

4x Tundra
2x Volcanic Island
1x Plateau
4x Flooded Strand
2x Scalding Tarn
2x Island
2x Plains
4x Mishra’s Factory
1x Dust Bowl

Sb:
3x Hydroblast
3x Relic
3x Pulse of the Fields
3x Pyroblast
3x Meddling Mage

Pulse in the board makes Zoo an auto-win, and saves us against burn, goyf-sligh, and gobbos. I'm not sure about Meddling Mage, but it's this list's best option against storm. The uses of the blasts and relic is pretty obvious. Thoughts? Suggestions?

[johanessen]

I don't consider Ichorid a bad mu. We cast swords on their Ichorids, countermagic to first draw spells, engineered explosives against tokens and cunning wish->extirpate (or the new trap if you don't run black). Post board Relics helps.

I think Merfolk or combo (supposing you don't play countertop) are the worst mu's

[rockout]

Have you ever actually played the ichorid mu? The plan is good in theory but sometimes you don't see the hate or they therapy it out of your hand or the first spell they cast is ancient grudge on your t1 relic. I board in 10 cards against and its still annyoing. Granted I can beat it but its still one of our toughest matchups and we'll lose about 70% of g1s.

[Tinefol]

Decent Ichorid players would eat us alive. Its no better than storm combo preboard and requires quite a few sideboard cards (though they are of broad use). Relic/Extirpate/MM/Plagues/Humility are all decent against Ichorid and may change the experience. Unlike Ichorid, Storm combo requires specific hate and unless you put many of it, it is still going to suck.

[gustha]

Little report for my 7th place at master of geddon II (Padua), 135 players, with a list I put up in a couple of days, and tested barely nothing! :tongue:
Plus I hate siding out, and so I tend to build decks more skill intensive MD and with a plain sb, while with this list is the contrary. :confused: So here it is, a wish-less vindicate-less wrath-less ... -less landstill:

// Lands
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 Plains
4 [UNH] Island
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [U] Tundra
1 [R] Underground Sea
1 [R] Scrubland
1 [MM] Dust Bowl

// Spells
3 [ALA] Elspeth Knight-Errant
2 [M10] Jace Beleren
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [5E] Nevinyrral's Disk (MVP!!!)
3 [OD] Standstill
2 [CFX] Path to Exile
3 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [4E] Counterspell
2 [TE] Humility
1 [IN] Dismantling Blow (MVP!!!)

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 4 [CS] Counterbalance
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [ARB] Meddling Mage
SB: 1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
SB: 1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor

Round1: Campigottto Sandro with blue enchantress.
g1. wow, not an easy MU to start with. My notes say I fetch a couple of times and I forced something, but I go in recursion with disk at t4, I think there's no need for further explanations, I didn't need to show my EE's and dism. blow.
g2. he starts too fast, I tried to get disk online once more, but he sees all of his orings, no way for me...
g3. land go for me, land go for him, mage on argothian enchantress for me (he had one in hand and drew one), followes by another mage on oring (which he draws!). T4 elspeth and I raced him with flying mages. He tries energy field but I show him dismantling blow and he concedes.
Side: +4 cb +4 mm +1 etutor (I lost the paper with the correct siding, if I find him I'll update, sorry! :cry: ).
2-1
1-0-0

Round2: ??? with reanimator
g1: he starts a bit slow with a force of mine to slow him down, hits a counterspell and obviously scoops to t4 humility with force backup and a couple of mishra's on the table.
g2: I see too much counters and flying mishras put a 4 turn clock
2-0
2-0-0

Round 3: carlo gnesotto aka jegger with ad nauseam
g1: wow, another difficult MU... plus jegger is one of the best ant players in italy (see here (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/16892_Unlocking_Legacy_An_Ad_NauseamThreshold_Matchup_Analysis.html)). I opened hand with double blue, double force, snare, standstill, counterspell. Yummi! I bashed him with factories till he reached 6 life, but then all my counters can't stop all his silence/orim's chant.
g2. bashed him with/mage factories till 6, but a reb on a mage and game errors decided the game. I eot tutored counterbalance, he goes orim in my upkeep. I should've force the orim, play cb, and pass, but I let the orim resolve and he wiped away my mage (on tendrils), then combed off. I bluffed double forced by paying 5 my only force, but I shoul've payed the alternative cost of fow and save the mana for the snare to counter his infernal tutor for igg. I've been stupid, I paid for that.
0-2
2-1-0

Round4: ??? (sorry, in that lost paper there were the complete names...) with dragon stompy.
No brainer, extremely favorable MU.
2-0
3-1-0.

Round 5: Filo ?!? with Wg stax.
g1: a friend whisper in my ear that my opponent is playing "a deck with ancient tomb". I start relaxed with lots of lands thinking of DS, play top pass and being punched hard by a chalice @1. I drop EE@0 and standstill, and he play armageddon, which I cannot respond to. I then draw tons of lands and keep his crucible off the table, resolve elspeth and win, countering all of his things and taking his only knight of reliquary to the path of exile...
g2: he locks too fast and 2 unresponded armageddon does the (fast) game.
g3: +1 crucible +3 mm +3 cb -4 snare -3 standstill -1 humility. I start well with basics and top + jace. He resolves smokestak and I resolve counterbalance. He charges stack up to 2, then casts the 2nd smokestack... I flip... elspeth! wooow, that wasa good flip! The turn after I resolved elspeth ftw, while he got killed by its own smokestack.
2-1
4-1-0

Round 6: andrea ?!? with ugr fish
g1: screw, very short game. the second and the third are a bit long, but snare > reb and elspeth wins alone.
2-1
5-1-0

Round 7: miani davide aka boucha with RGw sligh.
g1: he starts to burn e to 6 in a few time. I cast a standstill and waste him with dust bowl, lol!
g2: counterbalance missed all the flips... :cry: ([u]side note: i'd really like to find 1/2 slots for the 4th brainstom and/or the 4th top, many times I wished to see more). EE and mishra did the rest.
2-0
6-1-0

Round 8: scattolin fabio with baseruption
ID

Top8: stefano venturini aka mostro with iona reanimator
g1: lol! he reanimates iona naming white and i draw nevinyrral's disk with jace, lol! when he is able to reanimate iona again he's at 3 with 2 elspeth soldiers watching him.
g2/3 I made some play errors, sigh! I could've maybe won, but heh, it's good anyway.

Props:
-ace and soldan,for organizing legacy event that gather so many people
-to the beautiful girls in the room... man, playing magic is good, playing magic with girls is more good! (playing magic with girls and a beer is even more good, but it's just too much for 8-turns with landstill :laugh: )
-the fans, that kept my brain cool for 9 turns!
-to fabio marchesi, my mascotte!
-to elspeth, a real warrior on the battledield, but now good even on the top of the deck, lol! :laugh:
-to manzoteam#1 and #2, that supported me and waited me (the car was mine, so my way or the highway! :smile: )
-to nevinyrral's disk and dismantling blow, supertech!

Slops:
-to the 2 players who, with the judge at their side, asked the opponent to roll a dice to decide the winner of the match... must be retarded! :rolleyes:

[Hanni]

Congrats on your finish, gustha.

This just goes to show that even without cards like Wish, Vindicate, and WoG, that Landstill is still a beast. Truly my favorite deck in the format.

Gustha, it seems like in almost all of your matchups, you either brought in Counterbalance, or bringing in Counterbalance would have helped you. Do you think that maybe maindeck Counterbalance would have improved your performance at this tournament (given your pairings)?

Also, if you're going to run Counterbalance anywhere in your 75 (you should probably run 4), you should run 4 Top's maindeck. First of all, Top is the best spell in the deck. It singlehandly wins you games, and there is no other card in the entire deck that I want to see in my opening hand against every single matchup besides Top. Multiple Top's shuffle eachother away, so that's a non issue. Also, if you want maximum effectiveness from Counterbalance in the matchups where you truly rely on it as a crutch (like against RGw Naya Sligh), running 4 Brainstorm is a good idea.

How did Dismantling Blow fair for you? I'm not really a fan, since it is somewhat narrow in scope. I think I'd rather play Oblivion Ring in that spot, honestly.

How was the lack of WoG for you? I know against any deck that I see aggro, WoG is my favorite spell to have. Unlike EE, it answers every single creature on the table, regardless of cc.

Again, congrats on your finish. I've been advocating doing away with Cunning Wish for a while, and this tournament result seems like a great start at proving my point.

[gustha]

First of all, thanks.

Proving that landstill can do well without wish, or vindicate, or wrath was not obviously my main goal, but I can say it was my secondary (the first being winning the tournament, ofc :wink: ). Let's say it was a bet: having discarded wrath and wish, it remains to prove that landstill can do well even without vindicate. For this, I thank klaus for the suggestion of dismantling blow in the experience of UWr landstill, which I brought here in UWb. The card may seem situational in respect of vindicate, but:
-there's always an artifact/enchantment we want to break, and the rest is pretty much covered by many other things;
-it's instant;
-fill the same cc for counterbalance, and profits of the weak point of counterbalance in aggrocontrol decks;
-the kicker is quite useful, and top makes it great;
-is not a permanent, so doesn't conflict with EE;
-great in addition to disk, the real guest star of the deck.

Given my pairings, I think MD counterbalance would have helped much, in fact I brought it in almost every round, and would've helped me to 2-0 decks I 2-1'd, and maybe win the MU against ant, though the real MVP card of the day were, in order, Meddling mage and disk ex aequo, followed by dismantling blow. But my pairings don't give a good picture of the meta, which was full of goblin, landstill, enchantress, bant, merfolk, baseruption/canadian threshold, zoo. The list was more tuned vs aggro/tribal, but I didn't face one. That said, the meta could have been fair good for md counterbalance, and I think it would have improved some MU's and especially ant/reanimator, which I faced 3 times in 8 rounds.

It's long I don't feel the lack of wog, because spell snare keeps me alive just till I reach 4/5 lands, and that's were you can play every combination of EE/disk/stp/path/humility+elspeth to control the board no matter what the opponent plays. Basicallly with elspeth out you don't care to clear the board, but just to leave one single attacker on the other side of the field (without flying or trample :laugh: ). Plus EE is not only good vs creatures, but means another 3 answers to opposing counterbalances. And it diversifies the calls of pithing needle: you needle my ee? i have disk. You needle disk? you don't needle elspeth. You needle elspeth? Well, you are god! And I have dismantling blow! :) I won a match by eot tutoring snare to destroy double needle on elspeth and mishra, and that was pretty satisfying.

To sum up:
-yes, md counterbalance would've been a good choice. I'll maybe consider the switch for the championship's final (the tournament with the top24 players of the league), due to the fact that I'm expecting lots of combo-decks... or maybe I'll just play ant myself, lol! :cool:
-4th brainstorm and 4th top are really needed, or at least the 4th top really is. I've almost never seen brainstorm (3 or 4 in all the tournament!), but so many times I had a blind counterbalance out and flipped only lands, and wished I had another top, even if I sided in enlightenend tutor (MVP, it would be really great in your list). 4 is the right number to play, but then I don't know what to cut: not a land (24 has proven to be really solid, especially with all the denial I saw, and the manabase was tuned correctly), not a blue card (I don't want to go under 18), not the 3rd elspeth, nor the 2nd humility, nor disk, not a stp effects... Well, I'll think more on this and appreciate suggestions.
-during ant/reanimator MU, I wished I had some extirpate ready-to-hand...

[Hanni]

Given my pairings, I think MD counterbalance would have helped much, in fact I brought it in almost every round

I don't believe that is because of your personal pairings, but because it is great against almost every deck in the format. There are only a select few matchups where it isn't good, and those alone aren't worth running a card you keep bringing in against every matchup.

CounterTop is great against Zoo and Goyf Sligh aggro, fair against Merfolk when they don't have Vial in play, and lackluster vs Goblins. The few decks out there that run a large concentration of 3cc spells make it a little mediocre, and I only run 7 4cc spells to answer the bigger cc decks like Stax, it's somewhat slow against Ichorid, but overall, it's just a great answer to the entire metagame as a whole. The fact that it drastically improves some seriously bad matchups like Burn and Aggro Loam should be reason enough to run it in the maindeck.


It's long I don't feel the lack of wog

I suppose because of everything else you run, it works for you to not run it, but I just find it to be the most effecient means of mass creature removal available. For that reason, I would not want to go without it. Against some things, EE simply doesn't answer, and against others, Nevinyrral's Disk is rather slow. Both of them destroy my own Counterbalances, which is the primary reason why I don't like those cards with maindeck Counterbalance (but of course, you weren't running maindeck Counterbalance, so that changes the fundamentals a bit).


4th brainstorm and 4th top are really needed, or at least the 4th top really is.

4 Top should be a mandatory spell for every single Landstill list, regardless of the build. It's seriously the best spell in the deck.


but then I don't know what to cut: not a land (24 has proven to be really solid, especially with all the denial I saw, and the manabase was tuned correctly

You ran a 3c manabase with Ruins and Bowl. I wouldn't want to cut below 24 lands either. I run a 2c manabase without Ruins and Bowl, so 23 works out perfectly for me.

[ultimoman]

I notice that nobody seems to use Ravenous Trap in the sideboard, is it because we're just not that worried about graveyards anymore or is it not worth the space for the Ichorid matchup?

I'm surprised that Shackles isn't being used more as well. I have found it often to be gg against most aggro decks, its seemly great provided you have the islands for it.

[Mark Sun]

I notice that nobody seems to use Ravenous Trap in the sideboard, is it because we're just not that worried about graveyards anymore or is it not worth the space for the Ichorid matchup?

I'm surprised that Shackles isn't being used more as well. I have found it often to be gg against most aggro decks, its seemly great provided you have the islands for it.

It's definitely a Wishable target, imo. However, the card is pretty narrow itself, and like gustha said, with 6/8 STP effects (MD/Post-board) + Countertop with the possible addition of Medding Mage and others create plenty of problems for Ichorid players. That said, are you safe from a Cabal Therapy raping your hand? No, but no player is.

I had Shackles in the SB (with ET) for a long time, and didn't do so hot with it. Little slow to get out, and Grip-able.

[VonDoom]

With Zoo, Merfolk, and Countertop variants being the most popular decks in the format right now, it makes sense to me to drop the black splash and play red. Plague isn't as good against Merfolk as Firespout, which also shines in the Zoo matchup. The red splash also allows for REB in the board, which is good against both Merfolk and Countertop.

Here is the list I am considering running at the 5k.

UWr Landstill

4x Standstill
4x FoW
4x Brainstorm
3x Counterspell
3x Spell Snare
3x Fact or Fiction

4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Humility
3x Firespout
3x EE

2x Decree of Justice
2x Elspeth

4x Tundra
2x Volcanic Island
1x Plateau
4x Flooded Strand
2x Scalding Tarn
2x Island
2x Plains
4x Mishra’s Factory
1x Dust Bowl

Sb:
3x Hydroblast
3x Relic
3x Pulse of the Fields
3x Pyroblast
3x Meddling Mage

Pulse in the board makes Zoo an auto-win, and saves us against burn, goyf-sligh, and gobbos. I'm not sure about Meddling Mage, but it's this list's best option against storm. The uses of the blasts and relic is pretty obvious. Thoughts? Suggestions?

I changed Black to Red just some weeks ago.
And i top4ed in the first (really small) tourney (34 ppl) I partecipated.

Your list seems tough, but I think too radical.
Probably you win g1 against merfolks, zoo, creatures in generally
But probably you lose g1 in mirror matches and against WStax, having no more time to play g3.
You don't recycle nothing, no CoTW, no Ruins

Landstill is good because we have 50-50 against quite everyone, i think you are 70-30 against aggros and 30-70 against the rest.

But I like a lot your sb strategy :wink:
22 lands are too few imho, and 6 fetches are too many!!!!

Against ANT you've 9 dead cards, +3 "maybesometimesuseful" cards in mainboard
In g2, you have maximum 6 cards to side in

[mossivo1986]

I disagree with running 6 blasts in a sideboard and firespout in my testing was god awefull against most of the format. In theory its good but when you actually test it, you really want better overall answers.

Also to note: Spell Pierce is THE NUTS. It needs to be tested more thoroughly. It stops EVERYTHING we fear! Snare would be the split or replacement slot probobly, though we could consider counterspell.

[whiteshepherdman]

I think spell pierce would be a good replacement for if you run 3 negates in your SB, It's great against ichorid and storm decks that are limited by their mana resources.

[mossivo1986]

the argument isnt about low mana sources. its about the utility of the spell.

spell pierce for the cost is a one mana answer to vial/ trinisphere/hymn/ and a larger variety of answers that will inevitably get u into the later game. to be short this is landstills abswe all for shenanigans.

fyi its a mainboard card and not a sideboard answer.

[whiteshepherdman]

No. You don't get the point that i was making in my suggestion. All that I am saying is that it will work against ichorid and storm since they don't have the extra mana needed to pay for spell pierce.


I never said that it wouldn't be a good answer against any other threats, you just jumped to that conclusion.


All that I was suggesting when i mentioned negates in the sideboard was that they might not be necessary anymore since spell pierce could do their job just as well.


fyi if you've got spell pierce, and you're staring at creatures... you're still gonna be staring at creatures.

[mossivo1986]

i do get ur points. all im saying is that pierce answers problem cards in the early game that our md can't normally handle specifically vial. it also handles cb which makes the midgame much easier for us as it does w snare.

[Tinefol]

Spell Pierce indeed stops the single most troublesome early game spell there is - Aether Vial. Also 1cc discard, Trinisphere, opposing top, sometimes chalice. And to the less extent - Survival, opposing Standstill, Hymn, Counterbalance, although Spell Snare is heaps better there.

Personally, most of the games I lose, are when I get overwhelmed in the first 3 turns of the game. That gives us the general deck construction idea - survive the early game and overpower opponent later with 4cc bombs. The question is, can we really afford to run a conditional early game spell? Because It's going to suck later on. Don't we already have enough non-conditional means to 'stall' untill 4cc?

So, lets consider the early game options we already run:
StP -obviously. Nobody is going to cut these
Additional spot removal in form of PtE, F/I, Smother etc. To be sure. You don't always get StP in your opener, but when you run 6+ swords, its easy.
Spell Snare: hands down the best early game counter. Stops all kinds of problematic spells, Goyf, CB, Survival, Lords of Atlantis, Confidant, Hymn, Sinkhole etc. Much like StP, still solid later on. If I'm to run Spell Pierce, it isn't in this slot. Probably in the slot of additional spot removal.
Explosives: too versatile to cut it down to such a narrow and conditional spell.

Possible earlygame S/B cards:
Pithing Needle: has a lot of uses, fixes vial problem, but overally too narrow and 'clunky'. But I'd probably rate it higher than Spell Pierce and I don't play it.
Pyroclasm: solid against swarm strategies. And really, Firespout sucks, 3cc DOES make difference. If you want to run Firespout, run Wrath instead.

So here comes the problem, not only we have to evaluate how good Spell Pierce is, we have to find a room for it in the deck. I just don't happen to have that room. At least for now I consider other spells I run better than it.

[Genericcactus]

I changed Black to Red just some weeks ago.
And i top4ed in the first (really small) tourney (34 ppl) I partecipated.

Your list seems tough, but I think too radical.
Probably you win g1 against merfolks, zoo, creatures in generally
But probably you lose g1 in mirror matches and against WStax, having no more time to play g3.
You don't recycle nothing, no CoTW, no Ruins

Landstill is good because we have 50-50 against quite everyone, i think you are 70-30 against aggros and 30-70 against the rest.

But I like a lot your sb strategy :wink:
22 lands are too few imho, and 6 fetches are too many!!!!

Against ANT you've 9 dead cards, +3 "maybesometimesuseful" cards in mainboard
In g2, you have maximum 6 cards to side in

There should be 23 lands. I'll probably cut a FoF for an Academy Ruins.

Admittedly, this deck is skewed to beat aggro, but Zoo and Merfolk are among the most played decks right now. With this build, I don't see how I lose to them. Also, Goblins is going to rise in popularity with Warren Instigator. Whether the new Goblins decks will actually be good or not is yet to be seen, but I anticipate them in higher numbers.

So, what matchups are going to be worse? Sure, the landstill mirror won't be great. However, Landstill isn't that widely played, and I'd rather make that matchup worse than continue to lose to the most played decks. Wstax barely exists at all and that deck is pretty terrible anyways. Ichorid is always bad, but Relics in the board plus EE, Humility, and Firespout should make it at least winnable. I guess the real question comes down to if this list can beat countertop. With the minimal testing I have done, I still deem that matchup to be favorable with this list. EE deals with their entire deck, Spell Snare helps a lot, FoF wins in the mid/late game, and sticking an Elspeth or Humility is an auto-win. Firespout isn't great, but the ability to bring in Pyroblasts is pretty nice.

The black splash is probably stronger in a more balanced metagame. The versatility of Vindicate is certainly useful. However, with aggro dominating the format, black just seems ineffective.

What's your red list like? How is your board strategy different than mine?

[Tinefol]

Some more points about Spell Pierce.

It only answers vial or any 1cc spell 50% if the time - only if you're on the play. If you're on the draw, they've already cast it. For the answer to Vial be any viable, it should be possible to use it after Vial hit play. The only worthy cards I can think of are Disenchant and Pithing Needle. And like I've said both are of a broad use, but a bit too narrow. Let me explain the contradiction here: what I mean, is that while they would have a target almost every game, the number of targets we'd really want to use it for is narrow. E. g. you can stop Grim lavamancer with Needle, or Pernicious Deed with Disenchant, but why wouldn't you play some better spells instead.

[Citrus-God]

Based on the way we're talking about Spell Pierce and how "effective" it may be in the maindeck, why arent we talking about Disrupting Shoal instead? [/end sarcasm]

Seriously, the point of Landstill is to have an inevitably good late game by running cards that have quality late game, such as Swords to Plowshares, Spell Snare, Force of Will and EE to an extent.

This is also why we dont run cards like Force Spike... and instead, run cards like Path to Exile+Swords to Plowshares, Force of Will and such.

If you truly want to answer cards like Vial, just run more EE. Really, that's all there is to it.

[Ectoplasm]

Dropping a preemptive EE@1 when on the play vs goblins/merfolk is almost always a good idea :)

[mossivo1986]

Based on the way we're talking about Spell Pierce and how "effective" it may be in the maindeck, why arent we talking about Disrupting Shoal instead? [/end sarcasm]

Seriously, the point of Landstill is to have an inevitably good late game by running cards that have quality late game, such as Swords to Plowshares, Spell Snare, Force of Will and EE to an extent.

This is also why we dont run cards like Force Spike... and instead, run cards like Path to Exile+Swords to Plowshares, Force of Will and such.

If you truly want to answer cards like Vial, just run more EE. Really, that's all there is to it.

Citrus we both know theres no way for landstill to have inevitability over the entire format. It's simply too big and the variety of decks make it litterally impossible to play the (right 75).

My only reasoning behind pierce is that it does everything snare does in the early game (completely freeing your mid-game to win) which is when Land still should want to be finishing games between t8-12. Pierce allows you room between t1-3 against the problematic situations that snare doesn't resolve. Its better then snare against combo, burn for the most part, vial obviously, roughly the same against loam (besides for DD) and as a general principle completely fucks opposing plains walkers ee's. etc. Now if your seeing spell stutter sprite then perhaps it's not feasible, but honestly I think it should be given a shot.

Snare is phenomenal but there are tons of problems that pierce also addresses that snare doesn't accept. I'm just asking to see if anyone has tested it and if its actually worth it. Also pierce counters stifle.

[gustha]

That pierce counters stifle is the main reason I'll advocate for playing pierce. Ofc pierce is only good on the play, but does not snare has the same limitations? you know I'm not fond on "modal" spells (which let the opponent a second chance), but this spell spierce is really great on most of what snare already counters, except for bob and goyf which, indeed, are fair good targets. I don't think one can substitute the other, but a split may be considered, as it would be a MD answer to decks lilke ant and ichorid, due to their lack of mana resources...Would spell pierce not have been restricted to noncreature spells, it would have been phaenomenical...

[VonDoom]

There should be 23 lands. I'll probably cut a FoF for an Academy Ruins.

Admittedly, this deck is skewed to beat aggro, but Zoo and Merfolk are among the most played decks right now. With this build, I don't see how I lose to them. Also, Goblins is going to rise in popularity with Warren Instigator. Whether the new Goblins decks will actually be good or not is yet to be seen, but I anticipate them in higher numbers.

So, what matchups are going to be worse? Sure, the landstill mirror won't be great. However, Landstill isn't that widely played, and I'd rather make that matchup worse than continue to lose to the most played decks. Wstax barely exists at all and that deck is pretty terrible anyways. Ichorid is always bad, but Relics in the board plus EE, Humility, and Firespout should make it at least winnable. I guess the real question comes down to if this list can beat countertop. With the minimal testing I have done, I still deem that matchup to be favorable with this list. EE deals with their entire deck, Spell Snare helps a lot, FoF wins in the mid/late game, and sticking an Elspeth or Humility is an auto-win. Firespout isn't great, but the ability to bring in Pyroblasts is pretty nice.

The black splash is probably stronger in a more balanced metagame. The versatility of Vindicate is certainly useful. However, with aggro dominating the format, black just seems ineffective.

What's your red list like? How is your board strategy different than mine?

Here it is :smile:

4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
2 Island
2 Plains
3 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau

4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Spell snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Enlightened Tutor

1 Humility
3 Standstill

1 Decree of Justice
1 Wrath of God

1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus (now i'm testing tormod)

1 Jace Beleren
1 Elspeth
1 Ajani Vengeant

SIDE
4 Meddling Mage
2 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Lightning Helix
1 Humility
1 Runed Halo
2 Seal of Cleansing
1 CoP:Red


my SB strategy is

burn
in everything except humility and seals

aggros
in humility and helixes, if r/g zoo, cop:red is welcome too

Ichorid
in everything except cop:red and seals

stax
in seals

mirror
in creatures and helixes

combos
in creatures and halo

Has i said, i prefer to play a more "balanced" list, also because agaisnt some decks, you will play g3, against others (mirror and stax) you'll barely play g2. Due to that it's extremely important to win g1 agaisnt these, while against others you can also lose g1....

the fact behind our list is probably the metagame

in last tourney (35 players), some weeks ago I met
1 bant, 2 wstax, 2 nassif-style, 2 merfolks, 1 survivalcombo

at Ovino in Milan (more than 250 players), in early september, i met
1 bant, 1 mirror, 1 aggro, 1 stax, 1 merfolk, 1 survivalcombo

As you can see, in my block there are some people playing stax.....

[whiteshepherdman]

I think in your build gustha where you run more than 4 stp effects dropping spell snares for pierces would be worth testing. The logic of this is that pierce protects you from early game obstacles like stifle, chalice. You wouldn't really need snares since you have so many creature removals already and cb gets hit by pierce as well.

[Citrus-God]

Citrus we both know theres no way for landstill to have inevitability over the entire format. It's simply too big and the variety of decks make it litterally impossible to play the (right 75).

Obviously... but this is just a technicality at this point: we all know Landstill has dead cards against control and combo, and is mostly designed against Aggro or creature type decks. Against control, you will only lose against a true control deck (but those dont exist because of Aggro), and your only chance of winning against combo if you dont have CB in the maindeck is to board addition counters in. Keep in mind though, they slow down post board to keep up with your disruption, so that gives Negate and Spell Snares validity.


My only reasoning behind pierce is that it does everything snare does in the early game (completely freeing your mid-game to win) which is when Land still should want to be finishing games between t8-12.

Then why are we not running Force Spike?


Its better then snare against combo

Sure, but only against Ichorid, ANT and TES


burn for the most part

With the rise of Zoo, Burn seems like an awfully bad choice in terms of consistency. Especially with Counterbalance in the metagame.


vial obviously

I dont think you want to board such narrow spells (or play maindeck for that matter) against decks with AEther Vial. Like, Spell Pierce is only good against Cephalid Breakfast.... we thrash that deck regardless. Against Merfolk, we want to concentrate on the board, which means the better and more obvious solution here is to run more S2P effects.


roughly the same against loam (besides for DD)

They run so many lands, the point of casting such a spell against them is nullified after Turn 3.


and as a general principle completely fucks opposing plains walkers

Wouldnt Negate do the same thing? I mean, assuming if you will crash into opposing Planeswalkers, Negate would seem to be the more sensible counter to run. Against the mirror, Negate will be better. Against Monogreen Stompy, Negate will be better. Against Stax, Negate operates under Chalice for 1 and can effectively counter better a Spell Pierce can under three mana assuming they opened with a 3Sphere and they ramp tons of mana up for the first 3-4 turns. Sure, you can counter 3Spheres if you're on the play, but chances are, you will have to pull a Stax and "mull into oblivion" just to get a FoW or a Spell Pierce in your opening hand, or else Spell Pierce loses it's value.


ee's.

If people cast EE against you, chances are, they casting it for Zero. If it's to wipe a Planeswalker off a board, chances are, they'll leave 2 mana open to detonate it so that they dont walk into your EEs, which they can use to activate EE and inevitable tap the two mana for your Spell Pierce. If you do get them to tap out and proceed to drop your own EE, congratz, you've spent 2 cards to get rid of 1. Negate, easily turns this into a 1 for 1.


Now if your seeing spell stutter sprite then perhaps it's not feasible, but honestly I think it should be given a shot.

I did not say Spellstutter Sprite, I said Disrupting Shoal. Also, the Germans (Kimberly) have used it before in Landstill, and with success (until the printing of Goyf).


Snare is phenomenal but there are tons of problems that pierce also addresses that snare doesn't accept. I'm just asking to see if anyone has tested it and if its actually worth it.

I dont see why you cant just board in cards that actually take care of the problems, or just learn how to play around shit.... Like, if you're scared of Vial, why cant you just play more EEs or play Vindicates/Mortify? Or better yet, you could run Annul! That counters Back to Basics, SDT, Counterbalance, AEther Vial, Chalice of the Void, Smokestacks, Powder Keg,Trinisphere, Jittes, Shackles, CoW, EE, LED, Moxes, Petals, the list goes on. Oh, and it counters Arcbound Ravager, Cranial Platings and Master of Etheriums... it tears Affinity to bits, basically.


Also pierce counters stifle.

You can... you know, play around or bait Stifle. Or better yet... cut down on your fetchlands. Like, thankfully, magic is a game with hidden information, which means you obviously also have the option (especially in this deck) to play in a way where you can persuade your opponent that you're fucking crippled when you're perfectly fine in reality. Like, if you need to cast EE to wipe that Vial off the board, just play in a way where you're deprived of a color and just force them to Stifle your fetch and then proceed to cast and crack EE.

Honestly, I never had a problem with Stifle... mainly because I only run 4 fetchlands and 2 Dragons. Also, casting Dragon eot on their turn is brutal, it forces them to decide whether to color screw you or let you have your way.

[Hanni]

4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
2 Island
2 Plains
2 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau

4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Spell snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Enlightened Tutor

1 Humility
4 Standstill

3 Wrath of God

4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Engineered Explosives

2 Elspeth
1 Ajani Vengeant

SIDE
4 Counterbalance
4 Meddling Mage
4 Firespout
3 Oblivion Ring


That's what I'd do.

[gustha]

I'd rather have rebs and path to exile in the sb instead of firespout... 3 wrath seems enough...

[Mantis]

Citrus we both know theres no way for landstill to have inevitability over the entire format. It's simply too big and the variety of decks make it litterally impossible to play the (right 75).

I always thought Landstill was designed to have inevitability over the entire format, it is the reason to play the deck. I doubt there is any matchup where Landstill wants to play the aggro role, besides a control mirror maybe. I honestly can't think of any deck where Landstill doesn't have inevetiability against, but perhaps you can enlighten me.

[Bahamuth]

I always thought Landstill was designed to have inevitability over the entire format, it is the reason to play the deck. I doubt there is any matchup where Landstill wants to play the aggro role, besides a control mirror maybe. I honestly can't think of any deck where Landstill doesn't have inevetiability against, but perhaps you can enlighten me.

Landstill wants to play aggro against most decent combo decks. They have a better late game than you in this matchup.

[mossivo1986]

I always thought Landstill was designed to have inevitability over the entire format, it is the reason to play the deck. I doubt there is any matchup where Landstill wants to play the aggro role, besides a control mirror maybe. I honestly can't think of any deck where Landstill doesn't have inevetiability against, but perhaps you can enlighten me.

[Citrus-God]

Landstill wants to play aggro against most decent combo decks. They have a better late game than you in this matchup.

I think you're thinking of Solidarity. Against ANT and TES, a good Landstill player will do well if he plays his counters wisely. That means knowing how far 2 soldier tokens and a Factory can go while having a gripload of counters.

Btw, try not to let SDT resolve post board against ANT.

[Mantis]

Cant really decide which deck you are talking about to answer my question but I bet it plays Tarmogoyf 4 times.

[Bahamuth]

I think you're thinking of Solidarity. Against ANT and TES, a good Landstill player will do well if he plays his counters wisely. That means knowing how far 2 soldier tokens and a Factory can go while having a gripload of counters.

Btw, try not to let SDT resolve post board against ANT.

This doesn't change the fact that Landstill is the aggro deck here. It's generally bad for the Landstill player to even play Standstill against ANT, as they will draw into better stuff than you in this matchup.

Playing your counters wisely means countering as many Chants as possible, and countering any early Tops. If ANT resolves Top, you're going to lose anyway, unless you play like 3 Factories the first 3 turns and beat them hard enough so they can't shape a hand that wins through counters. This is highly unlikely though.

[ultimoman]

I've been liking Spell Pierce alot, so far I'm testing it as a replacement for Spell Snare. Its nice that it also stops an early LED, Duress, or Thoughtseize as well. It still needs more testing but so far its pretty good.
I've been liking maindeck Crucible since it has its uses in plenty of matchups but I could see the logic for it being in the sideboard.
DoJ has been a bit underwhelming lately, perhaps its just bad luck but its been too slow for what it does.
And yet another point; I'd love to fit in some maindeck Path like some others are doing so I'll do some testing and see what I can take out. I could go back down to 23 lands but that could cause some problems.

[Citrus-God]

This doesn't change the fact that Landstill is the aggro deck here. It's generally bad for the Landstill player to even play Standstill against ANT, as they will draw into better stuff than you in this matchup.

I definitely dont mind playing a Standstill against them as long as I'm not playing it over a resolved SDT. Other than that, if they shape their hand, I'll be shaping mine too.

And no, Landstill is the control deck in that match up. If I had Morphling in play on Turn 2, then yes, I would be the Aggro deck using counters to cancel interaction. But, I dont. I'm going to beat down with Factories and Soldier tokens, which means I'm playing control because the point of control is to make an attempt to force the opposing deck to interact with you, which implies countering Chant effects. If Chant resolves, you must be an awful Landstill player. If Chant doesnt resolve, then you still have game because now they're forced to interact with you still.

I know what you're trying to get at, but saying Landstill should be aggro in this match up isnt the best way to describe what you're to say.


Playing your counters wisely means countering as many Chants as possible, and countering any early Tops.

Not always. Spell Snares cant counter any of those, so those disrupt the opponent by countering Infernal Tutors. Everything else is either wiped off the board via EE or you should saccing Wastelands to slow them down.


If ANT resolves Top, you're going to lose anyway, unless you play like 3 Factories the first 3 turns and beat them hard enough so they can't shape a hand that wins through counters. This is highly unlikely though.

That's a must counter, definitely.

[paK0]

Jamie Wakefield:
A week or two ago I said I would explain why the French Regionals MGA decks were not really aggro decks at all.

Ghazban Ogre is Beatdown.

Sakura-Tribe Elder, Birds of Paradise and Eternal Witness are not Beatdown or even Aggro. They are Green control.

Forest go.
Forest, play a 1/1, sac him to go get another Forest, is not beatdown.
-
Forest, Ghazban, Go.
Forest, Rancor, Rancor, pitch a card for Bounty, attack for nine on turn 2 is BEATDOWN.


Well, i think its similar, just because you might attack earlier than in other MUs you are still not taking the aggro role. I think of it more as an opportunity strike (and a necessary one at that).

As far as I remember the article that put up the aggro/control statement did not include combo decks. So naming a role would be really difficut.

[Mantis]

Let me stop you right there as you are mixing things up. Bahamuth wasn't referring to terminology as Jamie Wakefield did in your example, Jamie had a problem with the name of the deck. Bahamuth is talking about the Mike Flores classic: 'Who is the beatdown?' and even cut and dry control decks can play the aggro role according to his theory. To clarify further: every sane Legacy player would call Vial Goblins an aggro deck, but if it plays against Zoo, you actually play the control role (bare extremely slow draws on Zoo's part and fast draws on Goblins part).

[paK0]

The quote was kinda meant as a joke^^

Well, the thing is that Flores is talking about similar decks (I guess you could say decks with the same goldfish) and that is clearly not the situation here.

Aggro Decks wanna put a clock that the opponent can't handle.

Control Decks wanna grind them out (not pleased with this wording, but I fail to find a better one) and win long term.


So imo the definition does not fit here, since the Combo deck has the faster clock, but still it is in the Landstill players desire to apply some early pressure.


I can see where everyone i comeing from but it just doesn't feel right to me to assign roles to decks that live by not letting/wanting your opponent to interact.

[Citrus-God]

So imo the definition does not fit here, since the Combo deck has the faster clock, but still it is in the Landstill players desire to apply some early pressure.

Exactly my point. Also, ANT has a faster fundamental turn compared to Landstill. So in a lot of match ups, Landstill tends to be control. In fact, the only time I've ever went aggro with Landstill is on Turn 4.


I can see where everyone i comeing from but it just doesn't feel right to me to assign roles to decks that live by not letting/wanting your opponent to interact.

I think it's wrong to assign roles in general. I did say some things regarding that, but here's my theory on magic in general, magic theory is 50% bullshit.

[konsultant]

but here's my theory on magic in general, magic theory is 50% bullshit.

I'd say magic theory is 90% Bullshit and 10% coincidence. The assumption that something shouldn't happen during a game or that somebody shouldn't have drawn all 4 of something good against you or that your deck shouldn't lose to a particular deck is all nothing but a loser's excuse. Grouping decks into categories like aggro and then losing when your opposing aggro deck casts something "that shouldn't be in there" because you assumed you knew their list means you deserved to lose.

[Citrus-God]

I'd say magic theory is 90% Bullshit and 10% coincidence. The assumption that something shouldn't happen during a game or that somebody shouldn't have drawn all 4 of something good against you or that your deck shouldn't lose to a particular deck is all nothing but a loser's excuse. Grouping decks into categories like aggro and then losing when your opposing aggro deck casts something "that shouldn't be in there" because you assumed you knew their list means you deserved to lose.

I'd say the most relevant one nowadays is still Who's the Beatdown, but it's still not that great of a reference because the article assumes that all decks are 2-dimensional and that they can only approach aggro or control.

So why cant you guys get with it? The nature of ANT is to be aggressive and the nature of Landstill is to play control. However, the possibility of switching gears and playing that role not because you have to, but because it's a different way to approach the deck should also not be ruled out, but that doesnt mean it's a defined role those decks are suppose to take.

I've played many games where I've assumed the role of beatdown against decks like Aggro Loam, Merfolk, Zoo and Survival... not because I want to, but because I've gotten to the point where I've opened myself an opportunity to become the beatdown. Get what I'm saying here? Shitty example, I definitely know where Flores was getting at, but his conclusion was shitty. So Flores said that in the Sligh mirror, whoever has the most removal wins this match up. Does that mean control role wins the game? Well, he said that, but not really. Sligh mirrors tend to be fucking volatile, and the winner of the game naturally goes to the one with the most Cursed Scrolls in play. But what he should have said is that by playing control elements, you've can stall into the point in which you use your control elements to leverage you into a point in the game where you have enough mana and bombs to become the beatdown. Another example is the combo mirror: whoever has the most disruption truly does win this match up, but only if they have the right mana and bombs to follow up. This is why TPS vs. Grim Long match up goes to TPS, not because took the control role, but because it used the disruption to allow it to follow up. Also why Grim Long and TES run protection, otherwise there would be no point in playing those decks if they auto-lose without protection. Why Slaver is better than Keeper? Slaver has better bombs to follow up with, has better (and more explosive) mana and better ways to find it's control elements. Or for example, Meandeck Gifts vs. Slaver. Does Gifts play control? What about beatdown? MDGifts plays neither, but it wants to win... even if you're playing not to lose, the point of playing like that is to find an opportunity to win. All decks want to be aggro at heart, but it's getting to that position where it can afford to do so with inevitability.

[Bardo]

The match in question is between White Weenie vs. Sligh (not the Sligh mirror).

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/3692.html

[paK0]

Well, i think the oppinons range wide because beatdown is not clearly defined.

Flores just talks about a situation where the faster deck should make the first move (creatures!), referring to this deck as beatdown.

Well, if we look at the DTB every deck leave aside ANT wins through turning creatures sideways, so just because you attack at some point does not put you in the beatdown role. At no point does the article adress combo matchups.

Another point why this article is no longer 100% viable is beacause a lot of decks can play both roles in any given matchup. Half of the decks around can get an opening grip like:
Tarmo, Tarmo, FoW, Fow, BS, Land, Land

If you feel like an opponent has a fishy draw then it might be correct to try to overwhelm him, even if the decks primary objective is to assemble Counter/Top.


I still think everyone should know about this article, it hels alot to know it, but basically everyone with playing experience should know that the given roles depend on more than just the decklists.

[Citrus-God]

Well, i think the oppinons range wide because beatdown is not clearly defined.

The deck that has the coherent plan to win (planning to not lose does not count). But another thing that makes this philosophy skewed is that by playing beatdown, you're also in a way, controlling the opponent. Whatever you do, forces them to react in a certain way because of your nature to take the "lead" in a game. May sound trivial to even mention this, but this is why Red Deck Wins back in old extended ran Ports, Wastelands and Pillage. It knows that decks like Tog and Scepter Chant win by setting up it's mana, therefore allowing it to gain flexibility, but because of it's nature to want to set up it's mana, Red Deck Wins (which had a pretty mediocre threat base at the time) runs disruption to make up for it, because it's a step ahead of the nature of both decks and tendencies that it runs land destruction to stay ahead of decks like Tog and Chant. Get what I'm saying? Because RDW forces Control decks which already in nature wants to set up it's mana base, it dismantles it's mana base by running land destruction. Also why Fish runs Null Rod against Drain decks.


Flores just talks about a situation where the faster deck should make the first move (creatures!), referring to this deck as beatdown.

He also discussed inevitability as well. For example, Sui Black vs. Sligh. Sui Black is forced to be control because Sligh has more removal for it's threats. That and it's harder for Sui Black to goldfish the way it does. IMO, dont see Sui Black as the beatdown, but rather, the deck that inevitably loses in this match up based on the era and pool at the time.


Well, if we look at the DTB every deck leave aside ANT wins through turning creatures sideways, so just because you attack at some point does not put you in the beatdown role. At no point does the article adress combo matchups.

Most combo decks, with the exception of combo-control decks and Solidarity, at at heart, beatdown decks. Those, are beatdown decks that indirectly win because the metagame has set up ways to combat aggro decks. That, and aggro decks tend to naturally be created to win in that fashion compared to that of control decks.


Another point why this article is no longer 100% viable is beacause a lot of decks can play both roles in any given matchup. Half of the decks around can get an opening grip like:
Tarmo, Tarmo, FoW, Fow, BS, Land, Land

The introduction of Goyf allowed every deck to play Aggressively when allowed to. Before, it was whenever the hell Threshold had... Threshold.


If you feel like an opponent has a fishy draw then it might be correct to try to overwhelm him, even if the decks primary objective is to assemble Counter/Top.

I think the best way to beat those decks is to dismantle Counterbalance from the deck. A quick Spell Snare followed up by a Wish for Extirpate can easily net you the game.



I still think everyone should know about this article, it hels alot to know it, but basically everyone with playing experience should know that the given roles depend on more than just the decklists.

I disagree. In order to know this format, I firmly believe that at this point, Menendian's theoretical philosophies on old Vintage has more of a profound effect on how I view Legacy in general.

[mossivo1986]

snore, i won a mox saphire this weekend. report later wheb i have more time.

[paK0]

The deck that has the coherent plan to win (planning to not lose does not count).

Most combo decks, with the exception of combo-control decks and Solidarity, at at heart, beatdown decks.


You refer to Beatdown as the act of attacking, but I think the more fitting definition is to place it in the role the deck is playing.

Goblins vs Landstill is Beatdown
Goblins vs Zoo is something else

If someone says beatdown I think of decks like Zoo or Goyfsligh. Landstill can perform the act of beatdown, but it never is the Beatdown deck.





The introduction of Goyf allowed every deck to play Aggressively when allowed to. Before, it was whenever the hell Threshold had... Threshold.



Again you are referring to the act, i think the best definition would be:
The deck that can set up the faster clock via non combo is the beatdown.

The only problem I have with this is that it would place burn in this category, where i feel thet beatdown should be done with creatures.






I disagree. In order to know this format, I firmly believe that at this point, Menendian's theoretical philosophies on old Vintage has more of a profound effect on how I view Legacy in general.

Link pls =).
I did not say this is the format defining article, but it can be usefull nontheless

[Rico Suave]

Magic theory is not bullshit. Maybe your personal experience of the theory is.

But for anyone who succeeds, they will tell you that the written theory articles are just a way of putting abstract concepts that win games into words that other people can try to understand for themselves.

"Who's the beatdown" is more than just how to play deck X against deck Y. A lot of it depends on the individual circumstances and the specific cards drawn. You just can't be stupid in taking the theory down to the practical applications inside each and every game.

All this talk about Landstill becoming beatdown against combo is stupid. The *only* way to beat combo with Landstill is to obtain control. They will test you, and your grip will both weaken and strengthen over the course of a match, but at no point does "beatdown" ever become a factor. There is a difference between a control win condition (you're not going to deck them, right?) and playing the role of beatdown.

[GGoober]

I need advice on a suspected field of Zoo, Countertop, Canadian Thresh, Lands, combo i.e. the new Legacy metagame.

I'm not sure if 4c Landstill will do better than UWb Landstill in this meta. Pernicious Deed seems to be huge write now in blowing up almost anything on the board in this meta (Zoo,Thresh,Dreadstill all have many non-creature and creature targets with cmc 4 or less).

For reference, here's my 4c Landstill list. It's still mainly UW(x) with x being double color.

There's a short report in the UBgw Landstill thread.

4 Mishra's Factory
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Academy Ruins

1 Eternal Dragon (61st card)
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Decree of Justice
1 Life from the Loam
4 Brainstorm
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Standstill
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
2 Spell Snares
2 Cunning Wish
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Fact or Fiction
1 Humility
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant


Sideboard:
1 Krosan Grip
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Path to Exile
1 Intuition
2 Extirpate
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Pithing Needle
3 Negates

I just feel that the replacement of Wrath with Deeds gave this deck a much favorable matchup against the general field.

[whiteshepherdman]

How has spell pierce been for you guys in testing?

[gustha]

I need advice on a suspected field of Zoo, Countertop, Canadian Thresh, Lands, combo i.e. the new Legacy metagame.
I'd suggest that Hanni's counterbalance landstill would be a good choice in a meta like this...with maybe some sb relics instead of path to exile which, though good, seem a little less useful than relic in a meta like this.

[mossivo1986]

Report As Promised:

Enjoy! (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=391270#post391270)

[Shawn]

@ Crz87:Why are you playing a 2nd Marsh Flats over a 4th Flooded Strand? Flats can't find Tropical Island or basic Island and Strand finds these and the same lands you can grab with Flats.

The past two tournaments I've run Disks instead of the usual WoG/Humility package. They function similar to Deed in Wub landstill and have been fine for me. I agree Deed is the most powerful sweeper available but I don't like straining my manabase for a card that has two off-color mana symbols in the mana cost.

@Moss: Congrats on the finish.

Michigan for loosing on the road.:smile:

[rsaunder]

Report As Promised:

Enjoy! (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=391270#post391270)

Only four rounds of swiss? How many players were there?

[NQN]

Wtf? You have like the best TO´s over there o0 Maximum 16 Players and there´s a Blue Mox for the winner? Thats sick :/

[Tinefol]

What I get for top2ing 18 players tournament there is merely 11 packs xD

But Mox is о_О

[mossivo1986]

ill remember not to post my reports anymore.

[Ectoplasm]

Nah don't :D At least it's more fun to read than 20 decklists on each page. It was a bit on the short side (I dunno about any of you guys but I like the random shit that people tend to put in there) but then again you can't have it all, congratz anyway.

[rsaunder]

ill remember not to post my reports anymore.

I asked a legitimate question, and I think that your buildup (won a mox this weekend!) made us think you'd plowed through 6+ rounds of swiss.

Don't stop posting reports. They all help out :)

[Reagens]

I played a tournament as well recently using more or less the last list from Konsultant.
I went 4-1-1 into top8 and split the finals.

My issue is the following:
Although in the beginning (like a lot of people) I was a fan of extirpate I soon found it to be a very bad card. But since I needed some extra gy hatred I included them in the sideboard as a 2-of (together with 2 relics). Despite my doubts they were amazing.
Extirpate won me the semi's against enchantress (on replenish) which is a very bad match-up otherwise.
I think that the meta in the past was prepared for extirpate (with burning wish and other answers running rampant) but that there is a distinct possibility of winning games in (at least my) metagame.
Has anyone tested this recently in a non-wish landstill build? What was the conclusion?

A second issue:

although I pack 3 wrath of god, 4 engineered plague (side) and 2 disk to combat tribal decks I found myself in deep trouble against goblins.
Are there additional tools that can be recommended? I see a distinct possibility for humility since both builds had no acces to green and thus no answer. Although I feel since a lot of decks pack green for krosan grip there is probably not enough room in the SB for it?
Any thoughts on that?

For reference my SB

4 plague
2 extirpate
3 orim's chant
1 crucible of worlds
2 ajani gold-mane
1 pulse of the fields
2 relic of progenitus


I chose extirpate to combat combo as well by the way.
Ajani feels better then alternatives against zoo/burn but three is too many thus 1 pulse. I was expecting a lot of zoo/burn and so 3 slots seemed warranted. (In the end I encountered none)
Crucible is quite random but allows me in very long games against decks with wastelock to build up enough mana.

The one match I lost was against RBG homebrew (demigod of revenge did me in). I ended up beating it in a very close match in the quarters...

[quicksilver]

ill remember not to post my reports anymore.

Did you really get offended over what was posted? That's not even offensive by real life standards, no matter internet standards.

[rockout]

I guess Joel doesn't understand that 4 rounds plus split to top 4 for a mox sapphire is pretty retarded in terms of east coast standards.

[Mark Sun]

I played a tournament as well recently using more or less the last list from Konsultant.
I went 4-1-1 into top8 and split the finals.

My issue is the following:
Although in the beginning (like a lot of people) I was a fan of extirpate I soon found it to be a very bad card. But since I needed some extra gy hatred I included them in the sideboard as a 2-of (together with 2 relics). Despite my doubts they were amazing.
Extirpate won me the semi's against enchantress (on replenish) which is a very bad match-up otherwise.
I think that the meta in the past was prepared for extirpate (with burning wish and other answers running rampant) but that there is a distinct possibility of winning games in (at least my) metagame.
Has anyone tested this recently in a non-wish landstill build? What was the conclusion?

A second issue:

although I pack 3 wrath of god, 4 engineered plague (side) and 2 disk to combat tribal decks I found myself in deep trouble against goblins.
Are there additional tools that can be recommended? I see a distinct possibility for humility since both builds had no acces to green and thus no answer. Although I feel since a lot of decks pack green for krosan grip there is probably not enough room in the SB for it?
Any thoughts on that?

For reference my SB

4 plague
2 extirpate
3 orim's chant
1 crucible of worlds
2 ajani gold-mane
1 pulse of the fields
2 relic of progenitus


I chose extirpate to combat combo as well by the way.
Ajani feels better then alternatives against zoo/burn but three is too many thus 1 pulse. I was expecting a lot of zoo/burn and so 3 slots seemed warranted. (In the end I encountered none)
Crucible is quite random but allows me in very long games against decks with wastelock to build up enough mana.

The one match I lost was against RBG homebrew (demigod of revenge did me in). I ended up beating it in a very close match in the quarters...

I actually reverted to Konsultant's 61 a while back, which I can pilot a lot better, imo. Top-still (mossivo1986's) list was great to play when I added CB in the SB, but for some reason I never had the success I wanted with it. The main thing I loved about that deck was the ET toolbox... kinda miss that but hey, what can you do?

I think 3 Path to Exile is pretty crucial in the SB for Goblins (and aggro in general, all agree?), as increasing your chances of drawing a 1cc removal spell to answer a Lackey is huge if you can't Force (or are holding Force back for something else). How was running 4 Plague? I think 3 was an okay number for me. The last time I ran Konsultant's 61, I played at a shop my friends and I go to br/tri-weekly.

Started 1-2, losing to Mono-Red Goblins in g3 (Elspeth final'ed 1/1 Soldiers staring down a horde of goblins, and then a SGC hits the board. Next card was FoW. :mad: ). I ask about the Plagues because that's the game where I had 3 and didn't see any. I didn't let Lackey get damage in, however, with StP/PtE/EE.

I also lost to Doomsday combo, which brings me to your Chants in the SB. I am thinking about trying those out against Combo the next time we play. Can always get the guy to go below 10 with Factories/DoJ, just not anymore. Could be good as a response to their own Chants. I wound up ending that night 1-3, scooping to my friend with Enchantress so he could play in T4. That said, we still played it out, and to comment on what you said: from playing against my friend and looking at most lists, I see what? 2? 3 Replenishes? If you save your counters for Replenishes, City of Solitude, and let EE take care of the 2cc cards like Argothian Enchantress, Sterling Grove (gives shroud... :rolleyes:), you should be in good shape. I'm not saying it was favorable, but I think I had pretty good board position the whole time through. Postboard, -4 StP -3 Standstill, +2 Spell Snare +3 Negate +2 Relic of Progenitus suited the deck a lot better.

<Took out the part of the GY, add later> I will say though, I think you need +1 CoW, and take out the Ajani's. I haven't played with them in a long time.

The SB I ran that night was:


2 Spell Snare
3 Negate
3 EP
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Path to Exile

Pretty generic, I have yet to try out Preacher against Merfolk (reasons (1) I've been ripped on MOTL for trying to get them, and (2) I haven't seen Merfolk in a while) though.

[mossivo1986]

I asked a legitimate question, and I think that your buildup (won a mox this weekend!) made us think you'd plowed through 6+ rounds of swiss.

Don't stop posting reports. They all help out :)

I wont its just aggrivating to have everyone talk shit about a prize and not look at how solid the list was/ performance etc.

[ultimoman]

Great job on the results Moss!


How has spell pierce been for you guys in testing?

Its been nice but I'm still undecided. Its great against Storm, discard in the early game, and helps a ton in counterwars, and even burn sometimes. After all that though, the meta might just be too aggro heavy at the moment but more testing is needed.

[i_need_the_extra_turns]

I just feel that the replacement of Wrath with Deeds gave this deck a much favorable matchup against the general field.

4c landstill is on the paper the best deck, but the manabase is often shaky.

I would like to discuss sideboard's and the connected strategy.

Sideboard:


For ref. Mossivo's sb
1 path
1 pulse
1 extirpate
1 e tutor
1 Beb
1 ray of distortion
4 counterbalance
4 EP
1 cow


1. How was the balance in your experience? Can u give some more details (read your comment in the report).

2. 4 EP seems a lot. Is it just a meta game call?


My current sb
2 path
1 e tutor
2 beb
4 balance
2 EP
1 pulse
2 extirpate
1 return to dust


I think balance in the board is the right way to go. On the other hand most decks (with G) will bring in their grips for their spot removal anyway.

What is with the lack of gy removal? I just cutted it - god damn ichorid, screw you!


Sideboarding



The most games will be played after boarding; so the strategy seems to be important.
I always know what I want to see in game 2, but I often dont know what to take out.
So have a look on the matchups.

For reference my mb (60):

4 Flooded
4 flooded strand
2 delta
3 tundra
1 sea
1 scrub
2 plains
3 island
4 mishra
2 wasteland
1 ruins

4 force
3 snare
3 cs
3 bs
4 standstill
3 top
4 stp
2 ee
2 wog
2 humility
2 decree
2 elspeth
2 wish
1 cow



1. Thresh

1a) UGW balance
IN: -
OUT:-
What would I expect?:They will definitly bring in Grips and maybe Teeg, B2B...
Comment:This matchup is just a bye. As a option u can bring in random Extirpate or Path for your 2 cunning wishs, when u prefer a more directly game but wish still offers these options.
When your are playing maindeck CoW I would cut it for path/extirpate.
I guess thats also your sb'ing plan mossivo.

1b) UGR Tempo
IN: 2 Path?
OUT: 2 Cunning Wish ?
What would I expect?:They will definitly bring in Grips and REB, maybe Spell pierce.
Comment:Here we have several options. First the wishes go out, because they are just too slow vs. their LD plan and we gain additional spot removal. Also nice cards to bring in are E. tutor (on CoW for example) and random extirpate for their grips, but I dont know what to cut.



2. Tribal

2a) Gobbo
IN: Your Plagues, BEB, Path, E. Tutor
OUT: Spell snares, Cunning Wish, 2 Standstill
What would I expect?:They will definitly bring in Grips, maybe REB,
Earwig Squad.
Comment:We just drop a plague/humility. So we want to improve that outs with the E. Tutor.

2b) Merfolk
IN: Your Plagues, Path, E. Tutor, 1 Extirpate
OUT: 4 Standstill, 2 Wish
What would I expect?:Splash or no splash merfolk list?
Comment:Standstill is obviously crap, so the Plagues come in.
What are here the other options? What's up with the spell snares in this matchup?


3. Aggro

3a) Zoo
IN: 4 Balance, 1 Path
OUT: 4 Standstill, CoW
What would I expect?:They can bring in the full hate in form of grips, teeg, winter orb, armageddon, REB etc.
Comment:Not an easy matchup and I'm not sure with the boarding. Here I would board the balance because otherwise the burn will kill you. Keep the wishes in to max. the outs for the Pulse.



greetz

[Gibsonmac]

4c
Sideboard:




My current sb
2 path
1 e tutor
2 beb
4 balance
2 EP
1 pulse
2 extirpate
1 return to dust


I think balance in the board is the right way to go. On the other hand most decks (with G) will bring in their grips for their spot removal anyway.

What is with the lack of gy removal? I just cutted it - god damn ichorid, screw you!


Sideboarding




3a) Zoo
IN: 4 Balance, 1 Path
OUT: 4 Standstill, CoW
What would I expect?:They can bring in the full hate in form of grips, teeg, winter orb, armageddon, REB etc.
Comment:Not an easy matchup and I'm not sure with the boarding. Here I would board the balance because otherwise the burn will kill you. Keep the wishes in to max. the outs for the Pulse.



greetz

Dude, pretty sure Balance is on the banned list

[rsaunder]

Dude, pretty sure Balance is on the banned list

He's referring to counterbalance. It's shorthand, but generally CB or balance (if referring to legacy or any deck with more than one of the card in question) will mean counterbalance.

[GGoober]

I didn't want to share a list that I've been working on but in order to prevent myself from noobing out due to my disillusioned beliefs, I wish to seek the help of our Landstill community here before I make any rash changes. PT Austin's going to be great with 20 duals 1st place, and 20 foil shocks 2nd place, so I want to take a deck that I'm comfortable for a spin (too bad my Welderstone Survival (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14540)deck isn't that great against a Zoo-ish/Dredge meta). Here's the list I'm deciding on for PT Austin. I'm expecting lots of Dredge, Zoo, Countertop, no Stax except for Brian, no Imperial Painter except for drew, and no Aggro Loam except for David. I'm imagining that a certain amount of combo/ANT and Dark Depths will be played.

With regards to the meta, and getting really sick on not drawing lands with 3 Top and 4 Brainstorm, I upped the 61st card as the 24th land drop. I feel that the following addition has strengthened the deck, at least in the suspected meta mentioned above.

4 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Island
2 Plains
4 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Scrubland
1 Underground Sea
1 Acadey Ruins
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Dust Bowl

0cc
3 Engineered Explosives

1cc
4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Path to Exile
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Spell Snare

2cc
4 Standstill
4 Tarmogoyf

3cc
2 Cunning Wish

4cc
2 Wrath of God
2 Elspeth

5cc
4 Force of Will


SB:
1 Path to Exile
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Krosan Grip
2 Extirpate
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Negate
4 Counterbalance


What I like about the list above from my experience playing Landstill:

- It still has the main shell of aggro removal: 2 Wrath, 4 Swords, 3 EE. There's no Disk/Humility and that takes a huge blow but 4 Goyfs sometimes make up for that.
- Elspeth/Factory beats is a tough win-condition to deal with
- 4 Standstill. I still like 4 Standstill and they're great on the play. I play 3 SS while on the draw.
- I was tweaking a Wishless list, but I love the flexibility and power of Wish to get out of any trouble.
- Spell Snare > Counterspell in the current meta. Counterspell is far too slow and is terrible on the draw. UU is sometimes too strainous if you need to StP off a tundra on turn 2 or resolve a counterspell Daze free. Snare is great in top-still and allows you to spin top and cash in for Snare if needed.

So Goyf over which cards?
From the classic list, I opted to cut 2 Counterspell and 1 Disk/Humility and another flex slot for 4 Goyfs. My basic philosophy is:

- Goyf is just that good. In testing today, he won a couple of games by turn 5 all by himself, and in a deck that runs Snares/FOW/StP, you can keep him safe.
- More importantly, Goyf's role in this deck is unlike Thresh and aggro.dec. Goyf is the best wall against opposing Goyfs, and that's one big reason why I included him. I sometimes lose randomly by not drawing removal, and opponents just stringing creatures while I'm forced to take damage. Goyf is now a wall for me to start digging into answers.
- Goyf improves the goblin/tribal matchup (not that we need it, but it's another out to turn 1 lackey while on the play). It gives a chance in game 1 to race Dredge (Thresh has a good game 1 chance against dredge compared to the rest of the field because Dredge makes goyf automatically 5/6 on turn 2).
- Goyf is now an inherent clock against combo, and greatly improves the iffy matchup.

Regarding the SB and MD Goyfs, the transformational SB now allows me to play some weak aggro Thresh-ish build with:
3 SDT
4 Brainstorm
4 CB
4 Goyf
4 StP

It's almost like UGW Countertop but without the creatures. CB is great against Zoo/Burn, and the added Goyf adds to the defense to make it a very winnable matchup. Countertop + Goyf will now consistently win combo the way Thresh does, and finally, my 2cc drop is increased against combo for Countertop with the added Negates + Goyf + Standstill + Counterbalance. Countertop against Canadian Thresh is also better now and for that specific matchup, I would side out Wraths and higher cc spells (Cunning Wish/Wrath) for relics + Countertop. One problem I had with Countertop in Landstill post board is that it absolutely sucks. There's hardly any 2cc spells to flip and many flips are dead even with top in play

3 Negates are good against the Stax/Mirror/combo mirror. Countertop + Negates + Extirpate + higher 2cc count should give no problem against combo. Extirpate is usually brought in against Loam/Ichorid MD. I play 2 Pates and board out Wish against Ichorid since it's too slow. Relic + Pate should also be great against Loam/Ichorid. I'm a fan of Extirpate, in response to Reagen's post: Extirpate is great when you can get rid of the remaining 3 Goyfs/Tombstalkers in opposing decks. Against the control mirror, it gives an edge in counterwars. I usually find myself boarding in Extirpates against decks with either recursion or bombs that are hard to deal with. I know from experience Extirpate against Dreadstill is a beating if you can EE Dreadnought and Pate it away so that they have to go with Factory + Trinket Mage beats. Against Canadian Thresh, Pating Goyf is also big.

I need some opinions for the list above. It's really strong at the moment, and I think it's ideal in the meta I described. I just hate Landstill crapping out hands since it's such a consistent deck, and I hope this move makes it more resilient and avoids drawing random jank.


FYI: My original Goyf-still list was: -1 Path, -1 Standstill + 2 Decrees. I love the Decrees but I really wanted more removal for the lack of counterspell. Decree seemed a little slow with the lack of Counterspell that were replaced by Goyfs. I'm not sure with this list that the 4th Standstill will be best, and the 5th StP/Path in the MD would supplement it better than 2 Decrees. Another option would be to run 2 EEs instead of 3, and play out 2 Decrees with only 3 Standstill or maybe squeeze in an ETutor MD to act as a silver bullet for the 3rd Standstill/2nd EE. Advice on how to do the Path/4th Standstill/2 Decrees in the MD would be greatly appreciated.

[Serbitar]

A question about the above list: Do you like Extirpate enough to be black just for that? You could go (SB: -2 Extirpate, +1 Relic, +1 Ravenous Trap (or something)) and cut black for a much better manabase.
Other than that I kind of like the list!

[wolfstorm]

I should totally spite you and play my all foil(that can be) stax deck and lend out my imperial painter to someone for PT Austin.. lol...

Anyways the list looks solid though I would consider running a Ravenous trap in the sideboard for a cunning wish target against Dredge. Also wouldn't Tormod's crypt be better than relic of progenitus with academy ruins & goyf?

I'm also a huge fan of decree of justice in landstill.. can help buy time mid-game, makes standstill stronger, and is amazing late-game.

[GGoober]

Good points. I didn't mind the black for just Extirpate. I'm playing 2 less basics, and since the only suspecting LD decks that are going to be popular is Canadian Thresh, in which Landstill already has a favorable MU, I'm not too worried about wastelocking out.

I used to play black for EP, Vindicate and Pate, but it seems that cutting Vindicate makes black overall a weak color if you're not playing EP. I decided on Goyf to solve the aggro matches instead of EP. Goyf is as flexible as EP against aggro but it's a turn faster, and it's actually good against Eva/Thresh/Zoo whereas EP is good against tribal. My main incentive to cut EP was that it was a tad bit slow and with the popularity of Zoo over tribal (maybe except merfolks), EP seems weak for me. I've tested it against Dredge. It's still too slow since I need to keep mana open on turn 3 to either counter or swords to slow Ichorid down.

I would think of Ravenous Trap and free an entire color. Not sure how often setting EE@4 is going to occur against the mirror or losing Extirpate to the mirror and Dredge is going to matter. I really like Extirpate above crpyt/relic against Dredge since you can easily Pate Ichorid or Bridges or Dread Returns depending on what you have in hand and tempo the hell out of Ichorid with StP on Narcs and Ichorids. Extirpate destroys Loam much better than Trap does. I'm so far satisfied with the 2 black. I never really use the black unless Pate comes in, and in most matches where it comes in, I won't have a risk of losing my lands (dredge/mirror) except for aggro loam which isn't played much in the USA.

I'll bring the Decrees and test it on the way. I've played with and without Decrees and I'm going for decrees. It speeds up games and chumps and swings, does everything for the deck. I'm just not sure whether it's good in THIS list since I just made and tweaked it up. I'll probably go back to Decrees (they're secret tech against Ichorid too if you survive to turn 4 to chump and destroy bridges :D:D:D).

Another question, do people prefer to play 3 Negates + 1 Grip or more Grips and less negates for the green splash? I like Negates better since it is more flexible in the overall meta (mirror/combo/stax) whereas grip is good against certain kinds of deck (Survival/Stax). Negate requires you to be re-active whereas Grip plays the pro-active game. I'm just going to pray that my Stax/Countertop matches involve me drawing EE/Counters so I can try not to rely too much on Grips and side in Negates instead. Would people play a 2/2 split of Negate/Grips or 3/1 split in today's current meta?

[NQN]

I wont its just aggrivating to have everyone talk shit about a prize and not look at how solid the list was/ performance etc.

The list was as usual, the performance as well (At least you told us that you always go x-1). The report was written in morse-style. What do you expect?

[i_need_the_extra_turns]

In my opinion Tarmogoyf is awful in Landstill.
First point, playing landstill means u made the meta game call to shut off opponent spot removal. So nearly every legacy deck has at least 4 dead cards vs landstill. This means ~10% of their business spells are dead => its like they start with a mulligan on 6 every first game. Legacy is still a creature format, not like vintage.
I know there were landstill decks packing goyf or tombstalker (referring 4c vorosh), but those decks play differently and dont belong to uwb LS.
In landstill we play already the best finishers (Elspeth, Decree !!!). Sure u can play a creature as a finisher but 1. its not necessary (see the point best finisher...) and 2. I would rather play a creature with evasion than goyf. Every legacy deck expect goyf and need to deal with it AND its not that hard to deal with goyf.

So what would be the function of goyf? Lets have a closer look at your points.



My basic philosophy is:

1. Goyf is just that good. In testing today, he won a couple of games by turn 5 all by himself, and in a deck that runs Snares/FOW/StP, you can keep him safe.
2. More importantly, Goyf's role in this deck is unlike Thresh and aggro.dec. Goyf is the best wall against opposing Goyfs, and that's one big reason why I included him. I sometimes lose randomly by not drawing removal, and opponents just stringing creatures while I'm forced to take damage. Goyf is now a wall for me to start digging into answers.
3. Goyf improves the goblin/tribal matchup (not that we need it, but it's another out to turn 1 lackey while on the play). It gives a chance in game 1 to race Dredge (Thresh has a good game 1 chance against dredge compared to the rest of the field because Dredge makes goyf automatically 5/6 on turn 2).
4. Goyf is now an inherent clock against combo, and greatly improves the iffy matchup.

1. Sure it has beated the opponent to 0, but was this really the point which won u the game? Give more details, but I would say: NO.
"You can keep him safe with Snares/FOW/StP" What? Seriously?
Snare doesnt counter Swords! And you really want to FOW a removal spell on your Goyf? Really? In a situation in which you cant win this turn? Misplay.
When you play a goyf the opponent will destroy him and you will say: "Sure, resolves." I mean we are the control deck. We dont have to win turn 5 or what. We dont want to protect a irrelevant creature, because its not our game plan.
And I dont see the point with "swords protects your goyf".

2. Goyf is a wall, right. "I sometimes lose randomly by not drawing removal, and opponents just stringing creatures while I'm forced to take damage."
Well, in that case, why you dont play additional removal??? When you play a blocker like goyf it just turns on the opponents removal and in the end you have nothing. Additional removal would be much better.

3. You can play Goyf out of the board, which can be really nice.

4. Here you are right. ->3.


Lets look at the cards you cutted for goyf. I will just refer to Humility.
Because Legacy is still a creature format: Humility > Format. It is really that simple. I mean Landstill has beside Combo one of the best first games in the format. I cant even imagine Landstill without Humility. It just fits so perfectly in Landstill like maybe no other card. You just drop it and win. It wins every tribal/aggro/aggro control match at random.

Some other points on your list.
- 4 Standstill. Agree. I know some people play only 3 but I would never go below 4 for some reasons.
- Your manabase looks shaky (the tropical islands, less basics). With this manabase I would play 4c landstill with deeds.

[rsaunder]

Has anyone given any thoughts to Burning Wish recently? I was batting around ways to make a CB curve work (for the MB) and Wish seems to be the best 2cc spell that makes it work. I don't like the sorcery speed theme for a control deck, but some of the options (wish => firespout) sounds pretty solid. I don't know if CB is the direction to take this, but it's how I ran with it at first:

4 CB mana curve: 12/12/0/6/4
3 CS
4 Fow
3 SDT
3 Standstill
3 brainstorm
2 B. Wish
4 STP
3 EE
2 WoG/4cc removal
2 P2E
2 Els
2 DoJ

6 fetch
6 Duals
7 basics
4 Factory


Just a thought, I mean you could even put in a green source or two and go wish=>LftL which would be MEAN. Any thoughts on this, guys? I'm just looking to brainstorm right now.

[GGoober]

I refer to the meta I'm suspecting (Zoo,Dredge,combo,tribal gobs/folks).


@Humility:
Pin-point removal is always great, and in my list, I'm down with -1 Humility, -1 flex slot, -2 counterspell. That's true that in some sense I've lost the power of Humility but it's not hard for me to play it anyway. I've won on the back of Humility many games, but plenty of them involve me stabilizing against 1-3 creatures instead of swarms (since wrath/EE deals with swarm well). I decided to take out Humility for Goyfs based on the fact that I recognize that Landstill has a favorable game 1 against any aggro (Zoo, Thresh, tribal) even without Humility. Goyf does bait removal and makes them have less dead cards, but seriously, do you ever get your Factory to attack without a Standstill? I don't since in Game 1, people have their removals unused and all aiming at your landdrop that beats. Your argument that you win every aggro game with Humility is true, but looking carefully at the classic Landstill list, we tend to win aggro matches anyway without it (2 Wrath, 3 EE, 4 StP, Counters, Decree, Elspeth -> aggro goes WTF???). I'm risking 1 card in my favorable matchups to improve my weaker matches game 1.

@Removal against Goyf:
Actually, removal against my Goyf is another reason why I like Goyf in the deck. To some degree, if they don't have removal or if I countered their removal, I can start winning the game. If I countered a removal and drew a Standstill, that's great. If they did resolve a removal, then in the suspecting field that runs Path/StP (only really relevant removals that can kill a big goyf, bolts count but that means it's 2 bolts less to your face), I would have gained life equivalent to 2 Pulses of the Fields for free (most time when I wished for Pulse, I never gain above 12 life), which is enough to put you back on the clock to control the game, or if they Pathed Goyf, that's even better to get Wrath/Elspeth online faster.

@manabase:
I've played 4 Basics (2 Islands, 2 Plains) with 4 BS and 3 Tops previously and never really had trouble. Currently, I'm dropping down to 3 Basics, which maybe pushing it but I'm keeping my 2 Plains against Moon to resolve my game winning spells. Other than that, I've dropped the black dual count by 1, and I'm playing the 24th land so the mana isn't an issue. There were times where I wanted to fetch G/W but I refuse to play Savannah due to balance in the board. I've only missed playing Goyf 1 out of 12 games yesterday and the only reason was I was playing against Eva with the nuts draw. You just have to keep that Trop when you want to play Goyf and don't open yourself to wastes. Sometimes I like baiting wastes with trops to get Tundras safely across and win with WW. Also, in response to my meta-choices, only Canadian Thresh is loving my manabase, but that matchup should be a by anyway. And I've considered the unstability of the manabase against Zoo, which is infact irrelevant, and its weakness to Canadian Thresh is replaced by dropping higher converted mana cost cards (Wrath/Humility/Disk) for lower cards (Goyfs). Wrath/Humility/Disk becomes pretty dead against Canandian Thresh and only EE,StP,Snares,FOWs are relevant cards in game 1. Therefore replacing these high cc cards with Goyfs gives me a good shot against the field of aggro/Zoo/tempo thresh.

@Goyfs SB:
You suggested putting Goyfs in the board, which I intended to do initially, but after thought, Goyf MD would give Landstill a better game 1 against its weaker matches: Dredge,combo specifically, and even against Stax. Why do I need removal pre-board when I'm already set in winning my aggro-matches anyway? My goal with this is to secure higher game 1 wins, be it on the draw or play.

@Loss of removal/counters:
With my previous list, the added removal becomes dead cards against the mirror, combo and Dredge. Goyf greatly improves these 3 matchups, which I deem to be the weakest Landstill matches game 1 (we have 50-50. 60-40 post board depending on whether we know how to play this deck).


All in all, I'm not saying that Goyf in Landstill is viable, but I'm referring for advice in that specific meta, that this is a good choice, and I'm not in any way advocating Goyf in Landstill, I'm asking for advice for my tourney that's coming on Saturday. I'm convinced that this is a good choice for such a meta, but I would like feedback on it, and not whether Goyf is good in Landstill. I think he's bad, but I think in today's meta, he's a decent call especially if you run counterbalances in the SB with 3 Top main, making a quasi transformational SB plan to a slower countertop decklist.

[ultimoman]

I'll bring the Decrees and test it on the way. I've played with and without Decrees and I'm going for decrees. It speeds up games and chumps and swings, does everything for the deck. I'm just not sure whether it's good in THIS list since I just made and tweaked it up. I'll probably go back to Decrees (they're secret tech against Ichorid too if you survive to turn 4 to chump and destroy bridges :D:D:D).

I've been liking DoJ less these days. I find that its been too slow, at least as a 3 of; even as a 2 of I'm thinking it may be a little much. I may go back up to 2 but I just don't like it early game.

[wolfstorm]

I was just saying the singleton trap in the board can sometimes end games with cunning wish and then removing there whole GY. like they dredge then play then you remove the entire yard right after, seems strong and just having that option is always nice game 1.

Also in Austin from what I've seen there's only two people here that ever play combo, me and my friend and I've recently given up the arch type since everyone loves counter top & force of will here. Then again everyone I know seems to own the entire card pool for legacy and could just play whatever the hell they want :/...

Feel free to step by battleforge games(http://battleforgegames.com/) at 7 PM btw after the PT for our weekly legacy, if your with Drew hes been there a couple of times.

[GGoober]

That's awesome. I am buddies with Drew at Asgards. We'll see if we can hit a Legacy weekend there. I see that it's on a Friday, which clashes with the PT Legacy event. Maybe a Saturday/Sunday or late at night would be good? I'll probably end up doing 2 Extirpates and 1 Trap in the SB and board in the Extirpates and leave Trap in the SB.

Anyway, thanks for the insight on Austin's meta. I know the last time at Waco, there were many decks, and I remember seeing one dreadstill.

I think I'll stick with the 2 decrees and find a slot for the single Path in the MD. I'm already at a low 17 blue count for my deck so I can't really cut anything much except for Decrees or the 4th Goyf.

[Reagens]

I think 3 Path to Exile is pretty crucial in the SB for Goblins (and aggro in general, all agree?), as increasing your chances of drawing a 1cc removal spell to answer a Lackey is huge if you can't Force (or are holding Force back for something else). How was running 4 Plague? I think 3 was an okay number for me. The last time I ran Konsultant's 61, I played at a shop my friends and I go to br/tri-weekly.

Started 1-2, losing to Mono-Red Goblins in g3 (Elspeth final'ed 1/1 Soldiers staring down a horde of goblins, and then a SGC hits the board. Next card was FoW. :mad: ). I ask about the Plagues because that's the game where I had 3 and didn't see any. I didn't let Lackey get damage in, however, with StP/PtE/EE.

I also lost to Doomsday combo, which brings me to your Chants in the SB. I am thinking about trying those out against Combo the next time we play. Can always get the guy to go below 10 with Factories/DoJ, just not anymore. Could be good as a response to their own Chants. I wound up ending that night 1-3, scooping to my friend with Enchantress so he could play in T4. That said, we still played it out, and to comment on what you said: from playing against my friend and looking at most lists, I see what? 2? 3 Replenishes? If you save your counters for Replenishes, City of Solitude, and let EE take care of the 2cc cards like Argothian Enchantress, Sterling Grove (gives shroud... :rolleyes:), you should be in good shape. I'm not saying it was favorable, but I think I had pretty good board position the whole time through. Postboard, -4 StP -3 Standstill, +2 Spell Snare +3 Negate +2 Relic of Progenitus suited the deck a lot better.

<Took out the part of the GY, add later> I will say though, I think you need +1 CoW, and take out the Ajani's. I haven't played with them in a long time.

The SB I ran that night was:


2 Spell Snare
3 Negate
3 EP
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Path to Exile

Pretty generic, I have yet to try out Preacher against Merfolk (reasons (1) I've been ripped on MOTL for trying to get them, and (2) I haven't seen Merfolk in a while) though.

Engineered plague: Since there is a lot of tribal in my area I think 4 is warranted. I won my games on double plague (1 is not very useful). So I'd recommend 4 because eventually you want double plague to lock them out of the game. Path is useful against lackey but doesn't solve the problem that you are eventually outdrawn (ringleader, matron,...) by them.

Chant is a very cheap anti combo card which can be useful against other decks as well (I used it against enchantress to time walk them).

Extirpate is in because it is (or can be) both an answer to gy dependant decks (intuition control, loam variants, recurring decks) and provides additional hate against combo (fetch-tendrils no longer has acces to burning wish thus a well timed extirpate can seal the game.

I feel I need 5 anti-combo slots and those fit nicely.

Enchantress. I played quite a few times against the deck and felt that although the games are very long the advantage lies with enchantress. In the past I always tried to stop the engine by keeping enchantress and enchantress like effects off the table. This was VERY unsuccesful. This time my main targets were karmic justice, replenish, words of war, hoofprints of the stag and city of solitude. In a very long game 1 I managed to counter six of such spells and maybe vindicated another. In other words I was very lucky to take game 1 but I stand by the strategy for now. Game 2 I had more and more effective tools at my disposal, but it was very close again. Explosives is a very circumstancial answer that has too many loopholes (enchantress is at 2 while presence is at 3, with active karmic justice it becomes even worse...)
The only sure way of beating the deck is getting elspeth's ultimate and lock the game out with disk. I won that 2nd game by quite litteraly decking my opponent.

Ajani definetly deserves some credit, since it helps you stabilise against burn or decks packing some burn. At the very least it gets 5 damage aimed at its head which is just as well. (and you still gained 2 live).
Sometimes the threat of an avatar token can disrupt your opponent's strategies as well (thus giving you more time).

I personally never miss wish all that much. It's too mana intensive and takes up a lot of SB space. The fact that it's blue is another con (being vulnerable to red blasts etc).

On the very hot debate of CB or not it is my opinion that for the same reason that counterbalance doesn't work AGAINST you, it will not work FOR you. Assuming that you are running a version like mine (well maybe not quite 'mine') with CC ranging from 1-5. I think it would be very difficult to consistently have the right cards on top of your library to disrupt your opponent. It would become mana intensive and it also obliges you to run SDT which I find not that useful in landstill.

Crucible of Worlds came in the place of Liliana Vess which was too difficult to cast for me. It's a very flexible slot that allows you to have an out against recurring wasteland among other things. Depending on the shifts of the metagame I can see this slot change from time to time. It also allows you to set-up a wastelock of your own in some situations. Probably I would run something extra to disrupt tribal next tournament.

[Mark Sun]

<Snip about EPlague>

Chant is a very cheap anti combo card which can be useful against other decks as well (I used it against enchantress to time walk them).

Gotcha on the EPlague. I can agree with what you're saying about Chant, it's annoying as piss to get Chanted about 4 times and watch them go off. Currently, I'm afraid it's too narrow to warrant 2-3 slots in the SB for (even if you can use it against Enchantress, etc, for a non-optimal effect). I have a tourney to play on the 25th, and I'm trying to design the best SB I can. The one thing I wonder is the GY hate I need, which brings me to...


Extirpate is in because it is (or can be) both an answer to gy dependant decks (intuition control, loam variants, recurring decks) and provides additional hate against combo (fetch-tendrils no longer has acces to burning wish thus a well timed extirpate can seal the game.

I feel I need 5 anti-combo slots and those fit nicely.

I never liked Extirpate, but I know its potential. Might give it another shot for an unprepared meta, but I know running 0 Wish --> how many times am I gonna see it? Gah. I hate Loam. So much :mad: Hard to deal with that matchup, I think my brain just decides to bitch out and before I know it, it's 0-2 already.



Enchantress. I played quite a few times against the deck and felt that although the games are very long the advantage lies with enchantress. In the past I always tried to stop the engine by keeping enchantress and enchantress like effects off the table. This was VERY unsuccesful. This time my main targets were karmic justice, replenish, words of war, hoofprints of the stag and city of solitude. In a very long game 1 I managed to counter six of such spells and maybe vindicated another. In other words I was very lucky to take game 1 but I stand by the strategy for now. Game 2 I had more and more effective tools at my disposal, but it was very close again. Explosives is a very circumstancial answer that has too many loopholes (enchantress is at 2 while presence is at 3, with active karmic justice it becomes even worse...)
The only sure way of beating the deck is getting elspeth's ultimate and lock the game out with disk. I won that 2nd game by quite litteraly decking my opponent.

That last part you said I definitely agree with. Elspeth gives this deck the inevitability, and when you fend off annoying shit like O-Rings, getting Disk online is great. I haven't seen a Hoofprints in a while in one of those lists... hmm. Post-board is definitely better, I don't really consider cards like Words of War and Hoofprints must-counters, though. Just the rest of that list. Gaining 2 more blue cards to pitch to FoW + using Relics to keep Replenishes at bay also helps.


<Snip about Ajani>

I personally never miss wish all that much. It's too mana intensive and takes up a lot of SB space. The fact that it's blue is another con (being vulnerable to red blasts etc).

I guess so with Ajani, I started cutting the unimportant Planeswalkers, because they get their faces beat in (Jace + Ajani quit hanging out after a while). I don't miss Wish at all, actually. It was fine when I ran the Top-version with CW, but meh. I like Konsultant's 61 a little better. On a random note, I do like 3x FoF (speaking of the curve), though. Pitch one early to FoW, use the rest in the mid-late game. Been doing great for me. I actually like going FoF a little better, the old list when I had to side out Standstills, I always felt a little bare in the draw department.


On the very hot debate of CB or not it is my opinion that for the same reason that counterbalance doesn't work AGAINST you, it will not work FOR you. Assuming that you are running a version like mine (well maybe not quite 'mine') with CC ranging from 1-5. I think it would be very difficult to consistently have the right cards on top of your library to disrupt your opponent. It would become mana intensive and it also obliges you to run SDT which I find not that useful in landstill.

<Snip about Crucible of Worlds>

SDT is a wonderful card in Landstill, my only bitching that comes with it is the whole repitition deal. When I get 2+ SDT either in play and/or in my hand, they were "sort-of" a dead card. Still useful, but you wanted to shuffle them out of the way so you could dig more, etc. When I tested SDT + CB, I thought it was pretty good, just not my style. Threw CB's in the SB randomly at a weekly tourney, definitely saved my hide against Belcher at the v er least. :tongue: No comment on CoW in LS, it's a great card.

[mossivo1986]

A couple of questions have been asked about why I run counterbalance in the side.

Answer (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=392305&postcount=6)

The idea behind it is consistency. in these matchups you side in

+4 cb
+1 reb
+1 tutor
(+1 pate against tes and ant. If they tutor for nauseam you pate m.tutor on their upkeep forcing them to shuffle their library nullifying that win route and saving you additional time to draw a relivent answer. It usually buys you atleast two turns.)

4 ep is universally good against the likes of ichorid, tribal, and even belcher if your feeling like siding it in against wrath and the like.

[Reagens]

@Mossivo

Thanks for the link. I see where you are coming from now. I try following the thread as best as I can but a kind reminder is always useful. Although I won't test it myself (because landstill is barely represented in my meta) I'll keep it in mind for when the meta shifts enough to warrant it.

@Morbid

I had my doubts on chant as well but a good ANT player will always disrupt you prior to setting up the kill. Which means that if you have counterspell and negate you'll need four mana to counter twice which is a lot. I also found out that having a turn 1 disruption spell is crucial as well.
Something is didn't get to test is chanting after they resolved a ad nauseam. The objective would be to get the back to 7 cards and hopefully hold them off from there, which should be easier since they are already at low life most probably and you know what they have in their hand.


In the meanwhile I'm considering humility again. The time that everybody packed 4 krosan grip in their side has passed (in my impression) and that opens up some possibilities I guess.
Should I run humility again it would possibly mean that I would play 3 plague instead of 4 (they essentially fulfil the same purpose and both double plague or plague + humility are a lock)

I tested against natural order + counterbalance yesterday and got a kicking. Which is odd. Games I lost were due to counterbalance followed by order. Which worried me is that none of my answers where sufficient. My opponent always seemed to have the answer at 3 or 4 on top of his library. What answers could be available?

[Citrus-God]

This was going to be a secret project, but I missed my last tournament by going to work instead. Figures. :(

Anyways, here's a list that is very simple, but it's also amazing because it can trash basically the whole metagame. These very simple additions has made more impact on the deck than Black and Green ever have. I've been beating decks I have absolutely not business beating. I've been tearing up decks as if I'm on auto-pilot by playing with these cards. It's truly insanity. I've been wrecking the mirror, Merfolk, Tempo Thresh, Counterbalance/Top, Zoo, and many others. Especially ANT.... like... that deck just gets kicked in the balls hard against me. It's standard for Landstill to generally do well against the whole meta so effectively, but these changes have made this deck feel as if every match up I play is literally a bye. Here's what I have so far


// Mana 25
1 Eternal Dragon
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
4 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
1 Mountain
3 Plains
3 Island


// Spells 36
3 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
2 Fact or Fiction
3 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Cunning Wish
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Wrath of God
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Decree of Justice
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant


// Sideboard 15
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Fracturing Gust
1 Starstorm
1 Engineered Explosives (can be Price of Progress if you expect 43 land)
3 Negate
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
3 Path to Exile

So am I fucking with you? I would love to say so too, but no I'm not. Red is fucking vital and fucking amazing. Wishing for Starstorm against Zoo? Umm... yeah? A fucking Wish is always able to fucking answer a common threat and at the same time kick ass? Oh fuck yeah! But Starstorm isn't the reason to splash Red, unfortunately. I would love to talk about REB.


To be honest, I have never had issues with my mana base. I've ran 4 Basic Lands in my deck for a long time, and it's rarely a game loss for me because of a Stifle or because of a Wasteland... no... those game losses were because of my opponents boarding in Red Elemental Blasts against me. Fucking bastards know what the fucking goods are. Luckily, I like to play fire with fire (I know, right?). By playing my own fucking REBs, I've essentially wrecked Merfolk seeing as I have extra Path to Exiles and they destroy Back to Basics, and some way to protect myself against Tempo Thresh and CounterbalanceTop. Also, REBing Ponders, BS and MTutors against combo is a huge tempo boost, as it can let you set up your mana and your counterwall.


But I will say one thing for sure though, Cunning Wish in this deck might be unnecessary. A better idea which I also fully endorse, is to replace the maindeck wishes with SDTs and pack a set of Counterbalances in the sideboard.

[klaus]

Giving UWR LS models a spin has become attractive ever since Ultimate Walker made its appearance.

I might have posted the build below earlier in this thread (don't remember).
Anyway here's my take on that thang:

"Insert deck name here"

4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
2 Elspeth, Knight’s Errant
2 Jace Beleren
1 Ajani Vengeant (I urge you to test this monster, Citrus)
1 Dismantling Blow (anyway some Disenchant effect/ could be EE #4, I guess)
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Firespout
2 Lightning Helix
1 Vedalken Shackles
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Sensei’s Divining Top

3/4 Flooded Strand
2/3 Scalding Tarn
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Mountain
3 Island
2 Plains
4 Mishra’s Factory
1 Dustbowl
1 Academy Ruins

[61]

4 Counterbalance
1 Lightning Helix
1 Firespout
2 Jace Beleren
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
1 Dismantling Blow
3 Relic of Progenitus
--

@ Citrus:
CB is sooper-dooper - go for it. The only 11 problems I see are your non-blue lands ;-)

[Bardo]

I really like Klaus' list. Not sure about the DBlow and the 2-of Firespout and Helices, but the rest of the list looks superb, down to the 4 CB in the board. My gut says:

-2 Lightning Helix
-1 Dismantling Blow
-1 ? (Shackles, 1 Jace, Snare)

+ 4 Counterbalance

But, that's me. I'll not dwell on it (since we've beaten this point to fucking death), but CB in Landstill makes its bad matches (combo, burn) decent, its meh matches fair and its good matches great. I can see Lightning Helix making the burn match better, but the other cards are pretty random.

Also, Ajani is fucking bonkers. I won a foil one a couple of weeks ago, tested him out for giggles, and yeah, nutty.

I'm going to sleeve this puppy up and see how it goes.

At first blush, the curve seems a bit slow. The curve above 2:

3: 5
4: 6
5: 1 (counting Shackles as a 5)

Edit - And Cunning Wish for Starstorm vs. Zoo? Really? You're going to spend URR5 to kill their dudes? I have a hard time seeing that as a viable play in a real game.

[klaus]

I really like Klaus' list. Not sure about the DBlow and the 2-of Firespout and Helices, but the rest of the list looks superb, down to the 4 CB in the board. My gut says:
-2 Lightning Helix
-1 Dismantling Blow
-1 ? (Shackles, 1 Jace, Snare)

+ 4 Counterbalance


Helixes and Firespouts (read: cheaper Wraths) obviously occupy a chunk of the creature hate slots. Of course the amount of hate is meta-dependant, but I'd crap my pants every game relying on EEs and STPs as my only removal.
I can see that the life gain aspect of Helix gets diminished by the inclusion of 4 MD CBs - and I won't go into depth on the MD CB again; just wanna point out its major flaw in non-Goyf builds: CB and Standstill, Jace, Ajani and the counter suite instantaneously become useless, once a critter actually sticks - I just wanna be on the safe side having more outs to such scenarios.
But yeah, those Helixes are debatable nonetheless.
So is D. Blow, in a way - it really is a lategame card. And it's not as good as Grip.
However, even though it may seem like a minor bonus, I've pseudo-killed my own Top actually more than once to draw those 2 kicker cards (oh wait! does it even work like that?? It's been a while and something tells me I've looked it up and figured it doesn't.. meh someone enlighten me please).
---
Cheers.

[Ectoplasm]

If you mean that you blow your top (sweet jesus) and make it flee to the top of your deck in response to nab the two cards, I'm afraid the spell will fizzle because all of its targets will be gone the moment it tries to resolve, thus it gets countered.

[gustha]

I really like Klaus' list. Not sure about the DBlow and the 2-of Firespout and Helices, but the rest of the list looks superb, down to the 4 CB in the board. My gut says:

-2 Lightning Helix
-1 Dismantling Blow
-1 ? (Shackles, 1 Jace, Snare)

+ 4 Counterbalance

But, that's me. I'll not dwell on it (since we've beaten this point to fucking death), but CB in Landstill makes its bad matches (combo, burn) decent, its meh matches fair and its good matches great. I can see Lightning Helix making the burn match better, but the other cards are pretty random.
First of all, I'm glad there's basic mountain on the lists (too fucking important, without crucible). If I were to fit in CB md, I'd probably go
-2 Lightning Helix
-1 Standstill
-1 Spell Snare

And I'll make d.blow a metaslot (b. blow, firespout being the 2 contenders). Incidentally, disantling blow is a really strong card, and rarely (nearly ever) dead. And BTW, if you activate top and then destroy it in resp you draw, but if you destroy it and then switch it on top, the spell will fizzle ofc. :laugh: Blowing our own top to draw 2 saved my life twice, it's good too when you see crap and no fetches, buys some time.
I'd personally try to sneak in a forbid. I've tested it so far and liked it much, because it makes sense of the dead cards we have in some MU (e.g. firespout against combo/mirror), and is obviously too good with academy ruins.

@citrus: I'd probably go -1 plains +1 island, especially if you plan to add sb counterbalance.

[konsultant]

I made top 8 of a 42 man event yesterday with the new list I have been working on. This list should be in the top 8 lists thread. Sorry I don't quite know how to link to another page but if somebody that does know how would do it that would be cool.

I had two losses for the day, I lost one round in the swiss to the ultimate walker list that ended up winning the event and I lost in top 8 to merfolk deck that I beat earlier that day in the swiss. I beat 40 lightning bolt burn, 2x merfolk, UWB landstill in the swiss with a loss to Ultimate Walker and an id round 6.

[Citrus-God]

Edit - And Cunning Wish for Starstorm vs. Zoo? Really? You're going to spend URR5 to kill their dudes? I have a hard time seeing that as a viable play in a real game.

It's not so much for Wishing as it is for boarding. In testing, I've wished for it a lot though. Besides that, it's not like I'm going to pay 8 mana in a single turn just to Starstorm the board. There's a reason why Cunning Wish is an Instant and why it's one of the most powerful Wishes. But also, to be a bit of a mind fuck, yeah, it is a viable play in a game. Especially post board. I board Starstorm in and the opponent will just REB it blindly when they think they have control of the board.
I've wished for it against Merfolk too. Spending 7-8 mana to wipe the board clean is awesome.

But let's get to the main point, like I said, the real deal here isn't Cunning Wish, it's Red Elemental Blast. Cunning Wish can leave. SDT has just been a better deck card in general.

@Gustha: I was just thinking that! Although, probably a little bit more "blue" heavy and still find ways to find White. Thinking -1 Plains, -1 Island, +1 Flooded Strand, +1 Volcanic Island (it's just that good).

@klaus: Counterbalance has been superb. I might even throw Firesprouts in the board too for faster decks. Right now, my SB is

2 REB
2 Pyroblast
4 Counterbalance
2 Firesprout
2 Path to Exile
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant (one in the maindeck)
1 Ajani Vengeant (also one in the maindeck)

I've cut Negates from the sideboard since I already have Counterbalance. Firesprouts are great so far.

[RogueMTG]

So on Saturday I took UWb Landstill to a tournament for the first time. (Jupiter Games, Legacy for a set of revised)

Here's the List, with a mini-report to follow, any and all advice/criticism is certainly welcomed:

Lands (23)
3x Wasteland
3x Factory
1x Academy Ruins
3x Flooded Strand
3x Polluted Delta
4x Tundra
1x Underground Sea
1x Scrubland
2x Island
1x Plains
1x Swamp

Win (5)
2x Elspeth
2x DoJ
1x Eternal Dragon

Draw (12)
2x Top
4x Brainstorm
4x Standstill
2x FoF

Control (20)
2x EE
2x WoG
2x Vindicate
4x StoP
4x FoW
3x Counterspell
3x Spellsnare
60 Total

Sideboard (15)
2x Crucible of Worlds
2x Ajani Goldmane
1x Jace
2x Hydroblast
1x BEB
2x Relic of Prog.
1x Path
4x Meddling Mage

Report:
Round 1: G/B Rockish Control (Dark Rits/Hymns/Tarmogoyfs/Tombstalkers, etc):

Game 1: He nails me with a bunch of discard and I lose all my counters, but I still manage to find some removal for his early beats and drop an Elspeth. Eventually he lands a Haunting Echos and pulls half of my deck into the RFG zone, and he follows it up with a Tarm. Unfortunately for him Elspeth gets to ultimate +1 loyalty, and he can't win through a wall of indestructable 1/1s backed up with a Standstill. 4/4 flying 1/1s go the distance.

Side: -2 Wog -1 Top, +2 Crucible +1 Path

Game 2: I have some brainstorm + top action to get me through the early hand disruption, eventually I just out control him and win with another Elspeth lifting a Factory.

Result: Win 2-0 (1-0)

Round 2: Ultimate Walker

Game 1: This whole game was very back and forth, Standstills helped keep me on par with his Ancestral Visions. He lands an Ajani V. and keeps my Factory tapped. I manage to dispatch the Ajani with a Vindicate, and eventually I manage to win a fight over Elspeth and get some damage going with a token. Unfortunately he manages to land a protected Elspeth to destroy my Elspeth. He then lands a Crucible and has Wastelock online with Academy Ruins back up. I Vindicate his Crucible which he lets resolve after some thought, I then drop an Academy Ruins of my own, Ledgendarying out his. All of this back and forth attempting to gain control of the game lasts for 47 Minutes. Eventually I land Eternal Dragon and bring the beats, he Wraths, I return him on my upkeep. Hold the fort for a turn with Factories, at this point I'm really close to Decking. I cast Dragon again, one more hit will end the game. I haven't see a Swords from him all game, i'm almost certain he has the answer, on my turn I swing, he attempts a swords, I counter, he counters, I counter back, he concedes. 3 more swords were in the last 6-10 cards of his deck. I had 3 cards left at the end of the game.

We SB irrelevant cards and shuffle up for game 2, but obviously time gets called before anyone dies and I win the match 1-0-1.

Result: Win 1-0-1 (2-0).

Round 3: TES, Bryant Cook

Game 1: He goes nuts turn 1 and makes 14 Goblins, I don't have Force or EE.

Side: -4 Swords, -2 WoG, -2 Standstill -2 Vindicate, +4 MM +2 Hydro +1 BEB +1 Ajani +2 Relic.

Game 2: He mulls a bunch and I end up drawing both of my left in Standstills, them and Wastelands help lock him out while I beat him with Factories.

Game 3: It's my turn to Mull to 5 and get lucky enough to top deck 2 or 3 blue producing lands in a row and land a Relic and a Meddling Mage. I start to bring the beats with a Mage and a Factory, I land Ajani and gain some life. Top ensures I have the counters when he attempts to go off.

Result: Win 2-1 (3-0)

At this point I'm feeling pretty good. I won some potentially unfavorable matchups and I just need one more win in the next two rounds to be able to Draw into the top 8.

Round 4: Ultimate Walker.. again ugh.

Game 1: I don't know what he's playing, and I keep a hand thats low on permission but high on control elements. He gets a fast Wastelock and blows me out.

Side: -2 WoG, -1 Swords, -1 Spellsnare, -1 Standstill, +2 Crucible, +2 Relic, +1 Jace.

Game 2: I net standstills into standstills and get some Crucible action of my own going. Eventually I think I manage a protected Elspeth, and I end the game with a Decree for 5 dudes when he's at 3.

Game 3: This game in a bit closer, but he eventually suspends and resolves 3x Ancestral Visions, and a top. I just can't keep up with the card Advantage.

Result: Loss 1-2 (3-1)

Oh well, I can still come back, just need to win the next round and I'll be in.

I check the next rounds pairings, fingers crossed for something non-control to play against. Imagine my disappointment when I see Geoff's (Konsultant I think) name next to mine on the sheet.

Round 5: UWb Landstill Mirror, blech.

Not much to say about this match, I'm a landstill noob and he's Geoff, I get pwned.

Loss 0-2. (3-2)

Definitely not the match up I wanted to play for a top 8 chance.


Round 6: Affinity

He tells me he left his good deck at home and was forced to play affinity D:.

There was 8 people all over 12 points so the top 8 was pretty much locked. Now we're just playing for top 16.

Game 1: He bursts out of the gates and I die.

Side: -1 Top + 1 Path.

Game 2: I get my control on and Win, killing or countering everything.

Game 3: We almost decide to Draw for shits and giggles, probably should have as it would have most likely put us both in the top 16. Oh well, we play it out, and I nearly manage to stabilize control at 1 life, I stupidly tap my Mishra's Factory for a Top activation exclaim "..damn I'm terrible at magic", and lose.

Result: Lose 1-2 (3-3)

I end up in 17th place, spend some more money in Eli's store, and head out for dinner.

[Mark Sun]

So, as the Meandeck Open (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14916) gets a little closer, I'm starting to think about tailoring a SB plan for this tourney. I'm trying to speculate on how many people will be trying "fun and new" stuff at the tourney versus the usual Tier X decks that will be played.

I've mentioned before that I'm running Geoff's old 61, which fits my playstyle a little better. My SB right now is:




2 Spell Snare
3 Negate
3 EP
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Path to Exile

And that was just a couple of weeks ago, about a week after Zendikar was released. I'm thinking about tweaking the GY hate +1-2 here, tbh. Dredge is obviously very alive, Entomb Hulk is available. I'm also thinking about running Extirpate again (:rolleyes:) in the board.

Regardless, the meta is still probably going to be close to this: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14799

What do you guys think? I'm probably going to scout + audible, depending on what I see when I arrive there in the morning.

[mossivo1986]

im strongly considering the mean deck open as well morbid. ill let you know if im going give me a call sometime this week and we can discuss shit.

[gustha]

Here's my take on the topic:

// Lands (24)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
2 [R] Volcanic Island
4 [R] Tundra
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
3 [UNH] Island
2 [UNH] Plains
1 [UNH] Mountain
1 [MM] Dust Bowl

// Spells (37)
3 [SHM] Firespout
1 [IN] Dismantling Blow
2 [M10] Jace Beleren
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
1 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
2 [ALA] Elspeth Knight-Errant
3 [OD] Standstill
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [ALA] Ajani Vengeant
1 [EX] Forbid
1 [CFX] Path to Exile
4 [MM] Brainstorm

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [IN] Dismantling Blow
SB: 1 [M10] Jace Beleren
SB: 2 [RAV] Lightning Helix
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [CS] Counterbalance
SB: 3 [U] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds

Notes:
1. Want to find room for top#4 ot sstill#4.
2. Forbid: too much of a good card. Counterspell? Check. Not snareable? Check. Reusable? Check. Gives sense to dead cards? Check. Synergystic with ruins? Check.
3. I miss decree.
4. I'm considering a 3-2-1 split with the fetches (strand-tarn-mesa).
5. SB crucible is a open and debatable slot. relics too can be Mmages.
6. I'd play 3 elspeth if I could.
7. Enlightented tutor is becoming one of my favourit cards again. Especially good here, since we can fetch cards to cover the 1-3 curve (humility could fit the cc4 curve as well). Thoughts?

Just a side note on citrus' list. Very solid, and better supports counterbalance than mine. Its higher cc4 count makes it better against decks like stax and enchantress, for example, while I think my list has its weak points exacly in this direction.

[Mark Sun]

im strongly considering the mean deck open as well morbid. ill let you know if im going give me a call sometime this week and we can discuss shit.

Sounds sexy, I PM'ed you. There's a 50% chance I have to go home on Friday, but I'll be back in Columbus Satuday afternoon at the latest.

[Reagens]

I made top 8 of a 42 man event yesterday with the new list I have been working on. This list should be in the top 8 lists thread. Sorry I don't quite know how to link to another page but if somebody that does know how would do it that would be cool.

I had two losses for the day, I lost one round in the swiss to the ultimate walker list that ended up winning the event and I lost in top 8 to merfolk deck that I beat earlier that day in the swiss. I beat 40 lightning bolt burn, 2x merfolk, UWB landstill in the swiss with a loss to Ultimate Walker and an id round 6.

I looked at your list and have a few questions.

Why only one Elspeth? I know you have never been fond of her, but isn't having 1 too random?

Do you miss disk? I really dislike it's slowness, but on the other hand I love the fact that you can blow it up in your opponent's turn or preferavly at the end of his turn (sometimes to give you enough time to build up a board position). Does this have something to do with the prevalence of Merfolk in your meta?

Why cut academy ruins? Too slow?

Why the one crucible in the side? For which match-ups?

How on earth did you win the burn match-ups? You must have drawn all you counters or something...

[Citrus-God]

I looked at your list and have a few questions.

I'm sure I can answer these questions as well.


Why only one Elspeth? I know you have never been fond of her, but isn't having 1 too random?

Diversifying win conditions. I know he likes Elspeth now, but he might go back to running two copies of her. Who knows.


Do you miss disk? I really dislike it's slowness, but on the other hand I love the fact that you can blow it up in your opponent's turn or preferavly at the end of his turn (sometimes to give you enough time to build up a board position). Does this have something to do with the prevalence of Merfolk in your meta?

I think it has more to do with Disk being a bad card in general. I don't see why we went back to running if after we discussed why the card was bad in Landstill a long time ago.


Why cut academy ruins? Too slow?


Not because it's slow, but because it's a colorless source.


Why the one crucible in the side? For which match-ups?
Merfolk, Tempo Thresh, Aggro Loam, mirror, Ultimate Planeswalker...


How on earth did you win the burn match-ups? You must have drawn all you counters or something...

Post-board, he runs 13 Counters. I dont see why he wouldnt.

[Reagens]

I think it has more to do with Disk being a bad card in general. I don't see why we went back to running if after we discussed why the card was bad in Landstill a long time ago.


First of all, thanks for your answer.
I don't remember ever seeing the discussion between you and Konsultant as to why disk is bad. Or more pointedly why it seemed good at first and was cut later on.

Burn:

Ok. 13 counters should do it in your opinion. I never tested that but I think white answers are better since they can't be red blasted... But it serves it's purpose against combo as well I suppose.

@Crucible of worlds:

Like Elspeth this seems awfully random. Is this because of lack of SB space or is it only useful in the very long games?

[J.V.]

How on earth did you win the burn match-ups? You must have drawn all you counters or something...

Obviously, you have never met Geoff Mother-Fucking Smelski!

[mossivo1986]

Citrus Disk kicks ass. It wasnt bad in 05 and it got dropped because the meta changed and we lost mana drain. Now the meta is slow and apart from ant and tes we basicly own every other matchups with disk.

also to the guy who doesnt know. There is a reason his team is called Left Field. .

[Bahamuth]

Now the meta is slow and apart from ant and tes we basicly own every other matchups with disk.



What? Two of the most popular decks are Merfolk and Zoo, with Goblins on the rise because of Instigator. How can you call the meta slow?

[ultimoman]

Disk has usually been great for me. It just saved me in another match against Countertop.

I have to say it is interesting to see E. Dragon being used again.

[jazzykat]

Obviously, you have never met Geoff Mother-Fucking Smelski!

I've never even met the guy but +1. Eyes down for the master.

[LostButSeeking]

@Crucible of worlds:
this seems awfully random. Is this because of lack of SB space or is it only useful in the very long games?

Cruicible is useful in very long games, but it's also useful in other matchups as well. If you play against, say, tempo thresh, and you drop this bad boy after two wastes and two stifled fetches . . . well, it's a good feeling. And that happens in a lot of matchups--merfolk, loam and rock variants, plus any control-on-control matchups you care to name. However, against a lot of things--like combo or burn--it's worse than dead. This is one of those metagame call sideboard things, but personally, I love my cruicibles.

[Ectoplasm]

On the subject of Disk, I recently cut mine from my list because it just sucked ass most of the time so that's +1 for the 'boo for disk' camp.

I must say it felt good completely wiping stax/enchantress' board with it but who the hell plays those decks nowadays?

[mossivo1986]

landstill with disk has a fair game against all of the decks you mentioned behemoth. atleast my model does. the worst of those obviously being zoo but that matchup is very winnable post board.

while u all may disagree with disk the pure fact is that it gives u inevitability in every single matchup in the format besides for tes where its sided out along with path and stills. blast can also come in depending on if its tes or ant.

[rockout]

I've never even met the guy but +1. Eyes down for the master.

Geoff told me a story during GP Chicago of beating burn g1 by just willing it to be. Needless to say he won that round and his opponent cried in the bathroom for hours when Geoff told him he had no hate out of the board. True story.

[Citrus-God]

Citrus Disk kicks ass. It wasnt bad in 05 and it got dropped because the meta changed and we lost mana drain.

We played Disk successfully when Mana Drain got banned. It became bad because every deck we played against, we gave those decks answers against Disk. Goblins had Disenchant and Tinkerer, Thresh had Naturalize and Pithing needles, Solidarity just won, and so on. In favor of Disk, we ran Akroma's Vengeance, which is definitely a better card. It's a lot like why Geoff doesn't play Humilities in the maindeck.


Now the meta is slow and apart from ant and tes we basicly own every other matchups with disk.

To be honest, we dont own every other deck with Disk, but with Elspeth. The reason why Disk even became a decent card at all is because of Elspeth.

[whiteshepherdman]

Could anyone explain the Geoff's singleton counterspell and fourth wrath of god in the side? If we really wanted more control in the mirror match we would side in negate first before counterspell in my oppinion. What matches would a counterspell and 3 negates be more useful than 4 negates in the side instead?
Also, isn't 4 wrath of gods just overkill? If we really wanted more sweepers for the control match why not use a singleton disk instead in the sideboard?

[ultimoman]

Could anyone explain the Geoff's singleton counterspell and fourth wrath of god in the side? If we really wanted more control in the mirror match we would side in negate first before counterspell in my oppinion. What matches would a counterspell and 3 negates be more useful than 4 negates in the side instead?
Also, isn't 4 wrath of gods just overkill? If we really wanted more sweepers for the control match why not use a singleton disk instead in the sideboard?

Team Left Field perhaps. As for the Wrath instead of Disk (for Geoff at least), see some above perhaps.

Heres a question for the Wish users concerning the Mirror: What do you Extirpate in the mirror match? Their counters, E.E., or their few win cons?

[whiteshepherdman]

name decree of justice

Since its a win condition that could give them an advantage over you more than elspeth. I've tested a lot of the mirror and multiple soldiers from decree under standstill is a lot better than an elspeth pumping out 1 creature a turn. The 5 or more 1/1s you make at the end of turn would be able overrun and kill their elspeth since elspeth can only make so many 1/1 blockers to save itself

[Mark Sun]

On the subject of Disk, I recently cut mine from my list because it just sucked ass most of the time so that's +1 for the 'boo for disk' camp.

I must say it felt good completely wiping stax/enchantress' board with it but who the hell plays those decks nowadays?

Haha, I'm expecting a few of said decks on the floor this Sunday. :tongue:

I don't think I want to cut Disk under any circumstances unless I scout and all I see is TES/ANT and the like.

[Citrus-God]

Team Left Field perhaps. As for the Wrath instead of Disk (for Geoff at least), see some above perhaps.

Just to put this on the line also, Geoff cut Disk from the deck in his later builds after that whole 4 WoG, 3 Disk thing everybody else at the time was into. I used to hate Vengeance back then, and I hated Disk as well. I would've thrown in 1-2 more Day of Judgements had those been printed back then. But Elspeth is just better in general really. Really, run Elspeth. If you hit her Ultimate, she doesnt die to Vindicates or EE.



Heres a question for the Wish users concerning the Mirror: What do you Extirpate in the mirror match? Their counters, E.E., or their few win cons?

It depends on the situation, your hand, your board in correlation with your opponent's board and what you read their hand as. I've won games against the mirror because I made a play of Turn 2 Wasteland on Factory, Extirpate. All I had to do from there was play under Standstill better than them.

I also won another time against the mirror by going for their Counterspells. That plan isn't so good anymore because every Landstill build has 3 Negates in the sideboard. Extirpating DoJ is a good idea. Elspeth... hardly ever resolved against me, really. Especially with a Standstill down, most good players would just let go of Elspeth. So if you have Extirpates in the deck, I say just board them in. Chances are, boarded in Extirpates will be much better than having to Wish for it. Especially if it has Split Second. My advice here is don't cast it on DoJ until Standstill breaks. Blocking their soldier tokens with your own can get you by much better than just Extirpating their DoJs anyway.

If you had to cast Wish, Wish for cards that actually answer problems. Perhaps Return to Dust or Krosan Grip for their CoWs? Maybe even Wish for card advantage like FoF which can easily get you by even better.

However, in this match up, I always board Wishes out. The only times I board them back in is when the opposing Landstill player knows that I play under Standstill better than they do, because then, I have less Standstills to deal with.


Could anyone explain the Geoff's singleton counterspell and fourth wrath of god in the side?

WoG is just kinda a card we board in for match ups where WoG is just a good card. I used to have 4 WoGs in the board until I started running Tsabo's Decree as a Wish target.

Counterspell is just for games where we need more of a late game in general. Sometimes he'll just board out FoWs so having Counterspell has a hard counter in place of FoW helps as well.


If we really wanted more control in the mirror match we would side in negate first before counterspell in my oppinion. What matches would a counterspell and 3 negates be more useful than 4 negates in the side instead?

Against, it wont really matter, but a 4th Counterspell can definitely do a lot more than a 4th Negate.


Also, isn't 4 wrath of gods just overkill?

5 WoGs would be overkill. You only need 4 reset buttons. 3 is nice, but the deck lacks library manipulation, and FoF can make 4-1 splits. So having extra WoGs in the deck helps.


If we really wanted more sweepers for the control match why not use a singleton disk instead in the sideboard?

Cuz Disk is conditional because of the CIPT. I've talked to DIF about Disk before. If you're facing down multiple threats, it's definitely better to just wipe those off the board now. There are match ups where timing and resolution of WoG matters. CounterTop, Tempo Thresh, Merfolk, Zoo... same deal.

[Atog]

..But Elspeth is just better in general really. Really, run Elspeth. If you hit her Ultimate, she doesnt die to Vindicates or EE...


She actually dies to removal.




-8: For the rest of the game, artifacts, creatures, enchantments, and lands you control are indestructible.



So she doesn't protect her self from removal :/

Have anyone trying Hanni's build in tournaments? If so, what was your record?

[mossivo1986]

1. d.i.f. hasn't touched landstill since december of last year. i know i kept close contact with him. everytime i talked with him it was always about how white thresh just wins more consistently because it runs better cards.

now i took his last list and tuned the shit out of it. tuned it so much that at gp chicago i was running over lists that didn't even involve the strategy i was attemting to remove from the populous (graveyard abuse) i also played the archtype with a much more proactive strategy then anything anyone else has been piloting that i've personally seen. throughout all of this i realized that d.i.f's theory although a solid strategy was wrong for the mid-west american meta as a whole. this is around when i started talking to geoff even though i strongly disagreed with his style of redundancy over utility. heck i even worked with geoff initially on a build with more utility. but it obviously was not in the cards.

it is only when gustah told me to run disk as a 1 of for utility and i later understould with his crazy italian ass that it was the inevitability that elspeth achieves with disk (or academy ruins) that truly just nullifies a majority of the decks in this current format. this ranges from stax to merfolk and honestly the model im current
y piloting feels like im playing more of an itf build with a better landbase and better answers to the overall format.i owe gustah and michael alot of respect when it comes to the sheer ammount of time and testing thats gone into team awesomes wish still.

also side note. pating ee is the approach i prefer. its simple and it leaves them unprotected against ur decrees.

my model may not be as redundant as geoffs but i personally feel like i have a much wider reach then his deck does. the only thing id like to see happen in my version is a highlander slot for iona/ dredge decks and im not even sure thats at all neccesary. i could easily pull 1 cb out of the board and switch it with a relic but i think thats a bad choice.

[mossivo1986]

all im going to say about hanni is the dude is over in every other thread as well trying to mix decks around. check out his white splash thresh list which features such heavy hitters as elspeth and w.o.g.

[whiteshepherdman]

Anyways, apart from criticizing other players, I think we should explore more into the red splashes that Citrus and a few others have been discussing. With the success of Ultimate walker for example that runs cards like red elemental blast and ajani vengeant i was wondering if us landstill players could also abuse that power in a finely tuned red splash deck. In the mirror, burns would be great against opposing planeswalkers and as if i remember mossivo said once "REB> format". It seems just as viable as a black splash in which case we splash to tap into the power of vindicate and extirpate

[Citrus-God]

1. d.i.f. hasn't touched landstill since december of last year. i know i kept close contact with him. everytime i talked with him it was always about how white thresh just wins more consistently because it runs better cards.

I have too. This was when he first introduced Disk into his old list. I was asking him for advice on whether I should run Disk in a Thresh heavy metagame. He told me to cut it.


now i took his last list and tuned the shit out of it. tuned it so much that at gp chicago i was running over lists that didn't even involve the strategy i was attemting to remove from the populous (graveyard abuse) i also played the archtype with a much more proactive strategy then anything anyone else has been piloting that i've personally seen. throughout all of this i realized that d.i.f's theory although a solid strategy was wrong for the mid-west american meta as a whole. this is around when i started talking to geoff even though i strongly disagreed with his style of redundancy over utility.


It's been known that DIF plays it more as a control deck. But at the same time, I think it's less about Theory and more about DIF just not caring about playing Landstill in general really. He did essentially turn Landstill into more of a proactive deck later on, and it's hard to pin him down as a person who generally approaches Landstill as more of a control deck compared to that of a Control-Aggro deck.

Geoff has been using the Control-Aggro approach for as long as I know of him playing 3 DoJs in the maindeck. But if you look at Geoff's build, some cards are essentially in the Cunning Wish slot, but it's not Cunning Wish. Yes, I'm referring to EE and especially Vindicate. For Wish to work, you need to answer a certain situation. For Vindicate to work, it also depends on the situation. Sometimes you even point Vindicate at Lands, and that sure as hell isn't working within his redundancy code. In fact, that sort of contradicts it. But again, Geoff is an amazing technical player. He knows when to step off his auto-pilot approach to the deck and just turn it into a real deck.

Also, I think for your style, talking to Geoff has been the better choice. You play your deck proactively, but Geoff plays it fucking aggressively. The word aggressive is rarely used to describe Landstill, but whenever I talk to him about how to play certain decks, he's always turned me on to how DoJ should be approached. It's quite genius. As for the rest, your deck has been redundant for the most part, and every card can be Tutored. So all in all, your deck is essentially a redundant deck with ways to tutor up some utility. You sure as hell aren't playing an outdated underpowered Keeper with 18 singleton utility cards.


heck i even worked with geoff initially on a build with more utility. but it obviously was not in the cards.

So have I. In fact, I even have a sideboard entirely dedicated to Cunning Wish pre-board and post-board.


it is only when gustah told me to run disk as a 1 of for utility and i later understould with his crazy italian ass that it was the inevitability that elspeth achieves with disk (or academy ruins) that truly just nullifies a majority of the decks in this current format. this ranges from stax to merfolk and honestly the model im current

That sounds so unnecessary. Why can't you just win with Elspeth? In fact, Humility sounds a lot more attractive against Merfolk compared to Disk.


my model may not be as redundant as geoffs but i personally feel like i have a much wider reach then his deck does. the only thing id like to see happen in my version is a highlander slot for iona/ dredge decks and im not even sure thats at all neccesary. i could easily pull 1 cb out of the board and switch it with a relic but i think thats a bad choice.

If you saw the Sideboard for my UGWB build, it has 8 singletons with 3 Negates and 2 Grips in addition to those singleton Instants.

And your deck is redundant for the most part. Have you seen how the only singletons you have are Humility and Disk? They essentially serve the same purpose, but Humility is just better.


Anyways, apart from criticizing other players,

It's not criticizing, it's exploring why players like certain cards. I sure as hell wouldn't give up on the Fact or Fiction debate (if it ever popped up again).


I think we should explore more into the red splashes that Citrus and a few others have been discussing. With the success of Ultimate walker for example that runs cards like red elemental blast and ajani vengeant i was wondering if us landstill players could also abuse that power in a finely tuned red splash deck. In the mirror, burns would be great against opposing planeswalkers and as if i remember mossivo said once "REB> format". It seems just as viable as a black splash in which case we splash to tap into the power of vindicate and extirpate

I fully agree with discussing the possibilities of Sideboard REBs as well as the addition of maindeck Ajani Vengeants. Especially the SBed REBs. Red Elemental Blast > format

[mossivo1986]

your probobly right about me talking to geoff being better for me. simply because i figured out that i was getting away with murder in alot of situations where i should have just been cold to said matchup.

and yes the 3rd decree was absolutely the right call but it wasnt because i fealt like one needed to use them more aggresively. it was because the first one (generally) feels like s 5_6 mana tempo play. it didn't and doesn't so much stand as a win condition the first time around.

ill talk to you in private messege about dif but not like this.

[Citrus-God]

and yes the 3rd decree was absolutely the right call but it wasnt because i fealt like one needed to use them more aggresively. it was because the first one (generally) feels like s 5_6 mana tempo play. it didn't and doesn't so much stand as a win condition the first time around.

It depends on what match up you want to see DoJs in. Against Merfolk or Zoo, I tend to use it like you said, a Tempo Card. But because I run 3 copies total, like why you started running 3 copies I know that I will eventually top deck into a DoJ and proceed to hard cast it when the opposing aggro deck is under exhaust. But depends on how fast and how well I can exhaust those decks, the first copy will eventually be the winning copy. They shine even more post-board. I had Zoo decks in testing Fireblasting one of my Angels and hoping to topdeck a burn card so that Mancer + bolt can kill my other Angel or else he'll die next turn.

Against decks like Aggro Loam or Survival, I tend to like hardcasting DoJs early because they have very little answers to flying 4/4s. Especially if you run FoWs and Spell Snares to stop Survivals and Wishes from resolving.

[Reagens]

Cruicible is useful in very long games, but it's also useful in other matchups as well...

I wasn't saying crucible was a bad card. I was asking why there was only one copy in the 75. This intrigues me and like the singleton Elspeth seems very random.

@Disk issue:

If I understand correctly, Disk is more or less in the same slot as WoG (and possibly humility for those who run it)?
If so I think I'll stick with disk. In my experience it is more useful to be able to blow up their board an their end of turn step to set up something in your own following turn (threat + standstill, ...).
WoG is not nearly as useful as I hoped against goblins because it's not instant and a well-timed warchief can ruin your day. Disk on the other hand costs you a turn you very seldomly have.
In the end (and in my meta) it's the flexibility (being able to hit artifacts/enchantments et al) and the colorlessness that makes me choose 2 disk in my 75.

@Citrus concerning hardcasting DoJ.

Thanks for the explanation on that one. I always felt unsure when/how to use decree in the late game. I think I err to much on the safe side instead of just going beatdown late game...
Is that also what is meant my Konsultant playin aggressive? Tapping out midgame (or so) for 2-3 angel tokens? Is 2 tokens enough against decks without sweepers (supposing you have no protection)?

[Citrus-God]

@Citrus concerning hardcasting DoJ.

Thanks for the explanation on that one. I always felt unsure when/how to use decree in the late game. I think I err to much on the safe side instead of just going beatdown late game...

It depends on the situation. Most of the times when I do go for the Angel beat down, I tend to have FoW in my hand or two untapped lands for (or bluffing) Counterspell.



Is that also what is meant my Konsultant playin aggressive? Tapping out midgame (or so) for 2-3 angel tokens? Is 2 tokens enough against decks without sweepers (supposing you have no protection)?

Not exactly tapping out, but definitely planned assault. Sometimes he'll hold FoW in his hand or he'll leave a land or two untapped holding up a Spell Snare or Counterspell. Usually keeping mana open when you feel that you should go for the throat is helpful, especially against Aggro Loam or Survival. Thankfully, Spell Snare counters Burning Wish, Survivals and Devastating Dreams.

[Misplayer]

Not to derail the current discussion because I find it very interesting, but this past week I ran up against a BWG Rock-ish deck with Confidant, Tombstalker, Finks, Goyf, Vindicate, Deed, Wasteland, etc. I found the matchup to be almost impossible. While I could answer his threats for quite some time, he had an equally easy time answering mine (note: he is a very, very good player). He held Vindicate for Elspeth, he played Deed proactively to keep my Factories/Decrees in check, he sat on Wasteland for the same reason and he ran his threats out one at a time so I had to go 1-for-1 on each of his creatures. Because he had multiple answers to all of my threats, I was NEVER able to apply any pressure and he eventually won a war of attrition. I brought in 4 Path and 4 Counterbalance and it didn't help game 2 (although I never saw CB). I was also behind on cards for most of the game. Whenever I resolved a Standstill he'd play Hymn into it. This was definitely a time when I missed Fact or Fiction, because the match played like a control mirror. How do I win this matchup? (FYI - I was playing a Cunning Wish build without Vindicate)

[whiteshepherdman]

I'd side in 3 paths, 2 relics and a crucible and pull out my wraths and EEs. They have relatively average amounts of threats that we can deal with them one at a time. what bothers me are when stronghold and eternal witness gets online... which is why i run relics and paths. I've also tried Geoff's new sb of 1 of counterspell as the 4th counterspell in game two. I side out a force in game 2 for that 4th counterspell and it really seems like the right play. They don't have a really explosives turn 1 so the card advantage you get from counterspell over force of will will help you later if they get their graveyard recursion online.

[Ectoplasm]

I honestly don't think Rock should be a real problem, especially if they're not running loam, since you have all the CA you need to answer everything in a long game which it will most likely become and stuff like Elspeth or Jace truly shines since they can stick around for ages.

[RogueMTG]

I honestly don't think Rock should be a real problem, especially if they're not running loam, since you have all the CA you need to answer everything in a long game which it will most likely become and stuff like Elspeth or Jace truly shines since they can stick around for ages.

Planeswalkers are indeed pretty good here.

I'm sorry if it's been mentioned before (I didn't see it), but has anyone ever considered playing with Gifts Ungiven in Landstill? Is FoF just better?

Gifts for something like > Crucible, Ruins, EE, Reconstruction/Regrowth/Grim Discovery. Seems pretty solid.