[Deck] UW(x) Landstill

[Maëlig]

For Graveyard hate you will get lots of different answears, since there is not a real consensus. My advice is the following:
Since you run Cunning Wish 1 Trap should be set. After that you sould know how many spaces you want to dedicate. These places should be split between Crypt and Relic. If there is a lot of Loam in your meta I'd go Relic > Crypt. If it is solely for Dredge i think Crypt is better. But I would never use only one, always mix them up. However this is my own opinion, several others will tell you otherwise, you just have to test what works best for you.

Yes the key is to diversify the hate. Atm I play 1 trap, 1 extirpate and 1 crypt. Against dredge I side in 1 crypt and 1 tutor which adds 2 more GY-hate slots to the 3 wishes and is gg if you manage to get academy ruins going.

[Felidae]

@Dal: As I said the cut to 3 BS would only make sense if you had nothing left to cut, with your Ruins as a 22th land you can easily keep the 4th BS (but I'd still cut 2 Helixes for a Basic/ 3rd EE).

@Fred: Greetz to the finish, its sad that you lost against Eva Green , what cards did you run in your SB? (I'd like to see a Preacher in there :D )

[FredMaster]

@Fred: Greetz to the finish, its sad that you lost against Eva Green , what cards did you run in your SB? (I'd like to see a Preacher in there :D )
Yeah the matches vs. Eva Green were really not satisfying. I remember that he had tons of pressure in game one (he also ran Dark Confidants).
In game 2 he had at least 2 Wastelands + 4 Sinkholes (Yes, all 4 of them) which screwed the crap out of me.

If was actually feeling good about my sideboard though. It looked like this:
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Ravenous Trap
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Negate
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Path to Exile

It's sad that I wasn't able to test my take on graveyard hate but on the other hand it's good since Dredge still wouldn't have been a good matchup.

[gamegeek2]

Has anyone considered running Baneslayer as SB hate vs. Zoo? I'd imagine they side out their paths in the matchup, leaving them stone-cold to a 5/5 flying first strike lifelink. It's kinda slow, but you have enough stuff to slow them down, especially post-board, that you should be fine.

[Mark Sun]

Has anyone considered running Baneslayer as SB hate vs. Zoo? I'd imagine they side out their paths in the matchup, leaving them stone-cold to a 5/5 flying first strike lifelink. It's kinda slow, but you have enough stuff to slow them down, especially post-board, that you should be fine.

I've had them keep PtE in to take out Factories before. BS seems really slow, since we don't really have *any* form of mana acceleration whatsoever. Assuming you are on the draw for g2, that's a lot of pressure to fend off for five turns to maybe drop a bomp. I would rather run more removal, or something easier on the curve, like Kitchen Finks.

[coraz86]

I've had them keep PtE in to take out Factories before. BS seems really slow, since we don't really have *any* form of mana acceleration whatsoever. Assuming you are on the draw for g2, that's a lot of pressure to fend off for five turns to maybe drop a bomp. I would rather run more removal, or something easier on the curve, like Kitchen Finks.

At that rate, if you're running UWB, would Vampire Nighthawk become an option? It's got lifelink, and it blocks and trades with Goyf/Tombstalker/Kird Apes/all kinds of dudes.

It seems to me that you'd want the life immediately from a 187 like Finks in burn-heavy matchups, but I wondered if anybody knew otherwise well enough to say.

[Mark Sun]

At that rate, if you're running UWB, would Vampire Nighthawk become an option? It's got lifelink, and it blocks and trades with Goyf/Tombstalker/Kird Apes/all kinds of dudes.

It seems to me that you'd want the life immediately from a 187 like Finks in burn-heavy matchups, but I wondered if anybody knew otherwise well enough to say.

Eh, :b: is your third color, so I would say no. My UWb manabase only had 1x Sea, 1x Scrub, and 1x Swamp, so with double-:b: that's a pretty awkward requirement to fill and you'd have to retweak the manabase to accomodate. Nighthawk might be interesting if klaus's Speedstill list is still being played, though, no word on that in a while.

[Reagens]

Is Zoo really that much a problem?
If they are not running price of progress you should be fine anyway.

Explosives is absolutely murder for them and when you resolve an elspeth they need to spend at least 2 burn spells to kill it giving you enormous CA. Post-board they have very little relevant SB options while you gain acces to life gain.

I agree with Morbid that any spell with double black is not an option with the current manabase. Baneslayer is waaaaaay to slow and even when they side out path game 2 it'll be back game 3 if they see you playing baneslayer thus reducing it's effectiveness too much...

Finks is definetly an option if burn is a big metagame presence.

[paK0]

Why looking for Zoo stuff?

3 Pte is really flexible, they are good against Zoo, Dredge, any kind of Tribal and most other creature based strategies. There are hardly any other cards that do this for 1cc at instant speed. With this said I would board 2-3 other Lifegain mechanics to support the aggro matchup. Since Zoo is the most dominant, Kitchen Finks are fine for me. If they would tend more towards Goyfsligh/Burn I think Pulse is the way to go.

[RogueMTG]

So I played Landstill again at the latest Vestal tournament this past weekend, I ended up going 4-0-3, which landed me in 9th place of 78 on tie-breakers.

List:
4x Flooded Strand
3x Polluted Delta
4x Tundra
1x Underground Sea
1x Scrubland
2x Island
2x Plains
4x Mishra's Factory
2x Wasteland

2x Humility
2x DoJ
2x Elspeth

1x Wrath of God
1x Day of Judgement
3x Engineered Explosives
4x Swords to Plowshares

4x Brainstorm
3x Standstill
3x Top
2x Fact or Fiction

4x Force of Will
3x Counterspell
3x Spell Snare

Sideboard:
1x Echoing Truth
3x Meddling Mage
3x Path
3x Extirpate
1x Llawan
3x Negate
1x Crucible of Worlds

Mini-Report:

My memory is not the best, I didn't take any notes this time around, but I'll try and be as accurate as possible...

Round 1, Pro Bant, 2-1 (1-0):
Game 1: I'm not sure what he's playing but last time it was Reanimator, I keep a hand with some counters and lands. It becomes obvious he is not playing reanimator when he starts with a Forest -> hierarch. I swords the mana-dude and we enter into card advantage race that is eventually won by top finding Wrath and then Elsepth when we both have no cards in hand.

Game 2: I take a gamble on a powerful hand with Top & Removal, but get wrecked early by a wasteland cutting me off of double white, I take too long to stabilize and die to beats.

Game 3: No deck can deal with Progenitus quite like Landstill can.

Round 2, Countertop NO-Bant, 2-0 (2-0):
Game 1: He gets off to a solid start, landing dudes and protecting them, I fall to single digit life, but eventually I sweep all his dudes and Counter Balance with an EE to stabilize. He finds a dude and a Natural Order, but I have the Wrath and Elspeth takes the game.

Game 2: I keep a hand with three outs to Progenitus and lands. Llawan gets forced, Humility sticks.

Round 3, Crazy Horizon Canopy/Knight of the Reliquary/Crucible of Worlds/Stifle & Waste Dave Price Shenanigans, 1-1-1 (2-0-1):
Game 1: He Forces my turn 1 Top, but I have a second in hand which lets me sabiliize through his Stifle/Waste but I'm on low life. I manage to find and land a Humility with Force back up, it shortly takes the game.
Game 2: He has a super early Wastelock with crucible, I slow roll a fetch and try to get out of it with an EE @ 3, but he has the stifle. This game drags as I manage to get all of my Basics and a Top into play, but it's hard to resolve bombs through Daze & Spell Pierce on only 4 lands, he eventually takes it.
Game 3: I have a hand filled with removal but no counter magic he has a turn 3 wastelock that hurts my game significantly. I kill his guys until time is called, we never get to finish but he would most likely would have taken it.

Round 4, More crazy Winter Orb/Relic Barrier Shenanigans, 1-1-1 (2-0-2):
Game 1: I'm not sure what he's up to, he has a port tapping down one of my lands for the first few turns, eventually he plays a Relic Barrier, which lets me untap and drop an Elspeth. She goes all the way, even through 2 Propagandas, with Top hitting me land every turn.

Game 2: This game is much much long than the first, winter orb comes out early and slows us both down hard. Eventually he finds and has mana for a Relic Barrier, not thinking I said "Sure," filtered through my hand, looked at my untapped Island and Spell Snare in hand (chilling next to a now uncastable Elspeth and DoJ, *facepalm.* I proceed to do nothing for 30 minutes until he finds a way to kill me. We do fight over an EE at 2, but he wins the counter war.

Game 3: Much like game 2 except he doesn't have the Relic Barrier, we obviously never get even close to finishing.

Now that I got those pesky Draws out of the way early, it's time to win-out! ... right?

Round 5, Ugb Countertop with Stifle/Waste, 2-1 (3-0-2):

I know why I'm in the 2 draw bracket, I play Landstill, sometimes I'm awful at it, and I faced freaking Winter Orb.dec. This kid is here because he plays so slowly you're better off waiting for the Earth to be engulfed by the Sun than for him to make a play decision.

Game 1: I'm pretty shaken after the two Draws, they were long matches and I haven't had a break at all in the last two hours. I make an abundance of play mistakes this game, 2 for 1 myself a couple times, it just doesn't look pretty.

While sideboarding I took a deep breath and just told myself to relax and wake the fuck up.

Game 2: With my will re-steeled, my tight play comes back. I have all the answers for his threats and Counterbalance, he doesn't have any for my Humility + Factories + Decree.

Game 3: Much like game 2 but Elspeth shows up early, he can't come back from a defensive position.

Round 6, Quackenbush with GW Survival, 2-0 (4-0-2):

Game 1: I already pretty much never lose to Survival, Survival without blue is kind of a cakewalk. I kill all of his dudes (including Progenitus) and don't let survival resolve. Humility + Decree just ends the game.

Game 2: See game one, except it is way more drawn out. At one point he hardcasts Iona, to which I respond with a hardcast Force of Will.

There are two people in the 14 point bracked, me and Dave Price, but we already played so we both got paired down against 13 pointers, any draws would mean drawing out of the Top-8, so it's Win and In time.

Round 7, Nick with Canadian Thresh, 1-1-1 (4-0-3):

I really think this matchup is in our favor, I'm feeling confident to start the first game.

Game 1: I have an early Top that is just hits me land turn after turn, but stifle's and counters keep nailing my EE's to get rid of his Mongoose. Eventually I managed to kill it on 9 life. But I have to tap-out to do so, I'm holding 3 counterspell in hand and just need to untap to seal the deal. He's at a healthy life but only has two cards left. He draws for the turn. Bolt... bolt... bolt. Frown-town, way to peel like a champ.

Game 2: This is similar to the first except I don't get burned out. He just doesn't have enough ways to kill me, and has to go 3/4 for 1 on my threats with Spell Pierce and Daze's. Decree for 8 dudes, Swing, Decree for 8 more dudes, swing, takes the game.

Game 3: We have 7 minutes left for game 3, I shuffle up quickly, he Pile shuffle/Riffle shuffle/pile shuffles, mulls down to 4, shuffling the same each time, after what felt like 7 minutes went by, we start.

He lays a tropic, I take a gamble on it being his only land... and him not having stifle, and waste it turn 1. It works, but he rips a fetch off the top. I land a Top and double Factories, I start beating in for 3 / 4 a turn. I try an Elspeth turn 5 but it gets hit by Pierce, I probably should have waited another turn to play around it, obviously wasn't thinking clearly here, just wanted to Kill kill kill.

Time gets called with him on single digit life, I reduce it to 3 or so in turns but just can't kill him even though I have a strangle hold over the board and in cards. Given another turn or two my freshly plucked Decree would have most likely stolen the game, match, and a Top 8 slot. Alas it was not to be and the one other 15 Pointer snuck in ahead of me into 8th place on Tie-Breakers.

But I get a Foil Wasteland and a groovy play-mat for my troubles, I call it a good day and head out for Food.

[Mark Sun]

Still an awesome job, Ben.

Basically, you went 4-0-1 to the more popular stuff and 0-0-2 with the obscure rogue decks, look at it that way, haha.

CounterTop got a lot more annoying with Progenitus in the mix, and I guess before Sunday I'm going to need to find a slot for Humility in the MD somewhere. Sigh, and right when I thought 2WW sweepers were a thing of the past :tongue:

[Tinefol]

I've lost the last GPT Madrid in the finals, losing to Merfolk (also lost to Merfolk in the swiss). Played UWb Wish version.
Its so horrible of a match up, and no, Plagues don't really help.

[RogueMTG]

Still an awesome job, Ben.

Basically, you went 4-0-1 to the more popular stuff and 0-0-2 with the obscure rogue decks, look at it that way, haha.

CounterTop got a lot more annoying with Progenitus in the mix, and I guess before Sunday I'm going to need to find a slot for Humility in the MD somewhere. Sigh, and right when I thought 2WW sweepers were a thing of the past :tongue:

Ha, thanks! :cool:

Humility has definitely been solid for me. I'm not sure if I'm going to keep it at 2x in the Main Deck, as I did miss not having a Crucible in the Main, but if I do take out one I'm certainly putting the second in the Side.

Lately it seems as though if you want to win regularly, you need to be slamming down Iona's (reanimator/survival/ichorid) or Progenitus's (countertop, survival, dream halls), or have plentiful answers for each.

Speaking of Iona, I playtested the reanimator matchup against Eli for a couple hours the other day... the ratio was simply awful, something like 80/20 in their favor, even post board.

After discussing it I'm considering a few changes that could potentially aid the matchup, I may end up doing some of them, all of them or none of them, let me know what you all think, keep in mind this is all theoretical and in relation to my current list on the previous page:

- Removing MM/Canonist/Negate from the sideboard for 4x Counterbalance. CB I think can be a more versitle answer to more things in general. It has the potential to lock out reanimator/canadian thresh, and it solves the random mono-red burn if you ever run into it (worth thinking about when looking ahead to something big like the StarCity series in VA.). I will assuredly miss the 2/2 beater against combo though, so we'll have to see how this works out.

- Removing my beloved foily signed Fact or Fictions for new Jace. I'm really not convinced here yet, but I'm willing to try. It's a maindeck non-white answer to Iona which can certainly complicate things for them, and unanswered he will probably just win the control mirror. I haven't been thrilled with FoF lately. My deck does not have any main deck recursion to make splits difficult for them and picking between answers you need right now, and threats you will definitely need later, always sucks. Something to replace them, still give me CA and still is pitchable to FoW seems solid. Whether or not instant versus sorcery turns out to be a major factor remains to be seen.

- Dropping the black splash for +1 Island and +1 Karakas, and removing Extirpates for other Graveyard hate. This does make EE much worse, but CB does that already; and so far I haven't missed Vindicate. If I did add Karakas I'd probably find myself testing V-Clique and Venser in the board.

We'll see where the discussion/testing goes, but this is whats on my mind at the moment.

Edit: @Tinefol: Yeah... people should really just stop playing Merfolk... please?

And speaking of Merfolk & the Star City series, Merfolk has been pretty popular at these things. Anyone taking Landstill is going to need a solid plan to at least bring the matchup to 50/50 if they can. What that plan is I wish I knew. I think I'm 1-4 or so all time against Merfolk with Landstill in tournaments.

[FoolofaTook]

Does Sensei's Divining Top put Landstill over the safe limit of time to finish matches? Reading the report above I was stuck by two things: first that at least one of the draws, against Canadian Threshold, seemed like a really unlikely event, and second that it sounded like playing the deck was exhausting due to the number of matches that ran long. Game 2 in particular of the match against Dave Price sounds like a game in which without top it just goes over quickly in the opponent's favor leaving plenty of time for game 3, instead of going through a long drawn-out loss that then leads to a draw in the round.

[RogueMTG]

Thats a valid question, one I was certainly asking myself as I sat in 9th place with 3 draws.

I really think it ends up winning more games than it loses or draws. Against both Winter Orb and Canadian Thresh I made awful misplays that resulted in draws intstead of Wins. I also need to be more conciously aware of the time limits and I think as I log more play time with the deck I'll end up getting faster. I had trouble ending games in a timely fashion without top when I first picked up the deck. Having top as a 3 of is a recent addition for me, so it will take some adjusting, but I still think it's the right call.

[FoolofaTook]

Thats a valid question, one I was certainly asking myself as I sat in 9th place with 3 draws.

I really think it ends up winning more games than it loses or draws. Against both Winter Orb and Canadian Thresh I made awful misplays that resulted in draws intstead of Wins. I also need to be more conciously aware of the time limits and I think as I log more play time with the deck I'll end up getting faster. I had trouble ending games in a timely fashion without top when I first picked up the deck. Having top as a 3 of is a recent addition for me, so it will take some adjusting, but I still think it's the right call.

If you were to get in a similar situation in a game 2 again like the Dave Price match, where you had won game 1 and were now facing a long drawn out battle from a position of slight disadvantage due the early crucible-waste lock, would you be more likely to throw in the towel early on the game, knowing that top would let you survive longer than you usually would but that victory was very uncertain and that a draw in the match was the likely outcome?

[rsaunder]

What do you guys think about diabolic edict? It solves a lot of the major problems facing these builds, namely iona and progenitus. And honestly, other than zoo and perhaps merfolk, what other decks land more than one big threat? Even with those two, we have other removal to compliment the edicts.

I haven't tested it at all, but it sounds damned good for the current meta.

@ Rogue: I've also been thinking along the lines of the new Jace in place of FOF. Before I dismissed it as weak removal, weak draw, and a weak kill condition. Now that combo's looking better and better.

[RogueMTG]

If you were to get in a similar situation in a game 2 again like the Dave Price match, where you had won game 1 and were now facing a long drawn out battle from a position of slight disadvantage due the early crucible-waste lock, would you be more likely to throw in the towel early on the game, knowing that top would let you survive longer than you usually would but that victory was very uncertain and that a draw in the match was the likely outcome?

I don't think that Top is the problem in this situation, but more recognizing when it's futile to continue and that you should move on to game 3. A big part of playing Landstill is being able to just take over the game even if you seem very poorly positioned.

I probably should have scooped game 2 when my EE @ 3 got stopped and I was out of an reasonable means to get a third colored mana source to try again. But there was still a chance (however small) that I could pull runner runner Humility/Elspeth at any point and have it all stick and I didn't want to let the game go. Would I do things differently in the future? It kind of depends, lessons learned and all that, it goes along with needing to be more conscious of the time.

I made the same mistake game 2 against Winter Orb, it was all but futile, but I held on, and the cost was a draw instead of a potential win.


What do you guys think about diabolic edict? It solves a lot of the major problems facing these builds, namely iona and progenitus. And honestly, other than zoo and perhaps merfolk, what other decks land more than one big threat? Even with those two, we have other removal to compliment the edicts.

I haven't tested it at all, but it sounds damned good for the current meta.

@ Rogue: I've also been thinking along the lines of the new Jace in place of FOF. Before I dismissed it as weak removal, weak draw, and a weak kill condition. Now that combo's looking better and better.
I was in the same camp regarding Jace until yesterday or so, I have a couple in the mail now and will be trying them out.

I do think Edict is worth looking at, non-white, non-targeting removal seems awesome.

The problem is deciding where it should go, does it replace Path to Exile? It will be weaker against Merfolk & other tribal decks where you really wanted to hit the lords, but it may be better in the overall meta.

[Tea]

Does this deck need Mishra's Factory at all? For Standstill, all you need is an empty board.
You could run a 4c manabase with basics. Just a thought.

Isn't 3 Elspeth/DoJ enough?

[Mark Sun]

Humility has definitely been solid for me. I'm not sure if I'm going to keep it at 2x in the Main Deck, as I did miss not having a Crucible in the Main, but if I do take out one I'm certainly putting the second in the Side.

Lately it seems as though if you want to win regularly, you need to be slamming down Iona's (reanimator/survival/ichorid) or Progenitus's (countertop, survival, dream halls), or have plentiful answers for each.

Speaking of Iona, I playtested the reanimator matchup against Eli for a couple hours the other day... the ratio was simply awful, something like 80/20 in their favor, even post board.

This last part is incredibly depressing. I had a snow day off from school today, so I figured I'd retool for Sunday. The problem is, I haven't tested against Reanimator at all, and I'm actually just inclined to concede the matchup if it's that bad. Before you read below, is this the wise thing to do before I mutilate this deck?

Anyhow... I do like Karakas no matter what, I recommended Karakas & Tolaria West a while ago (I think Karakas as a 1-of is awkward, especially if it is your only out against Iona in certain cases. I hate Tolaria West but it is EE #4, and so forth). For fitting in Humility. I'm playing with gustha's list from a couple of pages back. The first thing I needed was to make some room. Someone verify if my logic makes sense here. My original draw suite was:

3 SDT
3 BS
3 Standstill
3 Jace 1.0

I can't get the new Jace in time (plus, I just spent a lot of $$ to get the parts for UW Tempo, that's the backup plan if Sunday is ugly), but I can make a new spot if I go -3 Jace, +2 FoF. I'm used to having FoF anyways, so this is fine here. I'm not happy about it eating up mana, as the original reason I liked this deck was because of its potential to have a smoother mana curve (less "bombs" @ 4cc, but more utility in the lesser slots). I also had 2 flex spots that were filled with 2 Forbid.

From the board, we move +1 Firespout (to fill Jace slot #3), and +2 Humility in the Forbid slots. Here's where it gets ugly. I still need something for the combo matchup. My original plan was somewhat dependent on Forbid, acting as hard counter #5-6 (or #9-10, as Spell Snare is situational). What can I do here?

The list now looks like:

// Lands
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
3 [R] Volcanic Island
4 [R] Tundra
1 [LEG] Karakas
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
2 [UNH] Island
2 [UNH] Plains
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
3 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn

// Spells
3 [SHM] Firespout
2 [FNM] Fact or Fiction
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
3 [OD] Standstill
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [ALA] Ajani Vengeant
2 [CFX] Path to Exile
3 [MM] Brainstorm
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [TE] Humility
1 [SC] Decree of Justice

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [U] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
SB: 2 [FNM] Aura of Silence
SB: 4 [CS] Counterbalance
SB: 1 ???


Is 3x Firespout overkill? Would finally like to consider Lightning Helix, after dodging the card for ages. I'd like more than 6 available 2cc cards for Counterbalance in the Zoo matchup if possible (1 active Counterbalance vs. a possible 3 Counterbalance + 3 Standstill. Helix would make it 8 cards and nice removal / recovery from burn).Feedback would be appreciated, I liked how the old list perform(ed), but now I'm a little worried all of the sudden about Progenitus & Reanimator. :eek:

[Citrus-God]

Does this deck need Mishra's Factory at all? For Standstill, all you need is an empty board.
You could run a 4c manabase with basics. Just a thought.

Isn't 3 Elspeth/DoJ enough?

It's a tool for trading against Nactls, as well as killing basically every Lordless Merfolk and Mutavaults. Also, Factories turn Standstills played by Merfolk players onto a AEther Vial-less board a mistake for them if the Landstill player also runs Wasteland.

[RogueMTG]

Is 3x Firespout overkill? Would finally like to consider Lightning Helix, after dodging the card for ages. I'd like more than 6 available 2cc cards for Counterbalance in the Zoo matchup if possible (1 active Counterbalance vs. a possible 3 Counterbalance + 3 Standstill. Helix would make it 8 cards and nice removal / recovery from burn).Feedback would be appreciated, I liked how the old list perform(ed), but now I'm a little worried all of the sudden about Progenitus & Reanimator. :eek:

Just giving up on reanimator and hoping for the best is probably a meta call, but I know around here there are about 5-6 people that have been playing it regularly. Keep in mind those results were with my list at the time, the only things I really had to bring in were Extirpates & an Echoing Truth.

Top/Brainstorm are your best cards in the matchup (really any matchup...), you tend to have to float your answers on top of your deck so they don't get wrecked by duress/thoughtsieze, and then draw with top into them when the time is right. Post board if you have hate on the table don't forget about Show and Tell, try to set up for dropping a Humility off of it.


I'll be honest I've never tried the red splash, so I wouldn't know how good or bad Firespout is. At first glance it promises to be solid in a Tribal heavy meta, but it looks awful versus Iona/Progenitus decks.

I can tell you your blue count is looking alittle low for Force, I think I count 16? You could do -1 Firespout +1 Brainstorm/Standstill, and maybe move the 'spout to the side? (or squeeze in a Forbid).

With your 6 MD Swords effects it might be cool to optimize for the turn 1 Swords your dude, turn 2 Standstill play.

[Mark Sun]

Yeah, my blue count dropped way low with -2 Forbid, +2 Humility. Sigh... I was all excited for this weekend, but now I'm nervous (and you won't like me when I'm nervous... :eek:).

Luckily, the snow day yesterday also opened up tonight for me, so I can play at a weekly tourney and let you guys know how it goes. The players there will probably all be present on Sunday, and the metagame will be pretty healthy (ie., representative of the current Legacy metagame). That, or I can just pray that I do well in the earlier rounds on Sunday and that Reanimator starts off in the 0-X bracket. That MD Capsize is looking better and better, tbh.

[RogueMTG]

I'm sure you'll be fine, good luck!

[gustha]

@Morbid-: sorry guy I didn't reply to your post but I've been very busy. I'll answer here, and this is my current list. The changes reflect the last top8 of the league, with 2 merfolk 2 zoo (unbelievable...they should exclude each other!) 2 dephts (BG and UB) 1 Probant and I still don't recall the last. Maybe it's not properly a field to play landstill, but UWr (provided I don't screw with 24 lands in 60 cards, which happens indeed very often...) has a playable/positive merfolk MU, and playable/positive zoo MU. I don't like so much humility, true it's good paired with firespout, but firespout is good on its own, I'd rather have more path to exile.


// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
3 [R] Volcanic Island
4 [R] Tundra
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory
3 [UNH] Island
2 [UNH] Plains
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
2 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn

// Spells
2 [SHM] Firespout
3 [M10] Jace Beleren
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [OD] Standstill
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [ALA] Ajani Vengeant
3 [CFX] Path to Exile
4 [MM] Brainstorm
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
2 [FNM] Counterspell

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [U] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [IN] Dismantling Blow
SB: 2 [FNM] Aura of Silence
SB: 4 [CS] Counterbalance
SB: 2 [SHM] Faerie Macabre

Faerie macabre is here to try to mess with ichorid and reanimator, capsize/wipe away proved good in lots of cases, but they always arrive a turn too late and I want something effective as soon as possible. Turns good vs bant survival too, and lots of other things. 5 gy hate slots aren't too much, :frown:

BTW I was trying to tune a similar list with tarmogoyf MD (helps vs ichorid, combo - as a clock -, renimator - to race iona - etc.) with a transformational side to countertop (RWM's, counterbalances, grips/trygon). I'm sure it will help vs aggressive decks (non-merfolk), tempo thresh, zoo, aggroloam, anda against the ones already mentioned. Anyone interested to test in their spare time and share suggestions please send me a PM, I'm very full to follow the topic, sadly.

[Mark Sun]

So I installed the changes, -3 Jace, +2 FoF +1 Capsize, and also went -2 Forbid +2 Humility, effectively nuking my Combo matchup, but being more solid against bigger dudes, Progenitus, etc. I also did the Tolaria West/Karakas thing, which is pretty tacky. Played at a weekly tournament in Columbus last night (inaugural one), going 3-1 with the list beating Merfolk, Pox, and Aggro Loam, losing to B/R Goblins.

Quick notes: the Merfolk list wasn't optimized (no Wastelands, wtf?) so, when it comes down to who can win under a Vial-less Standstill, I wound up drawing three, winning the CA battle and taking it home pretty quickly. Post-board I didn't see any of the seven cards I boarded in, but a Humility slows the bleeding down enough for me to Firespout (countered), then Firespout again. Jitte was still lethal under Humility and reminded me of why I was hesitant to add it in to begin with. 5/5's with Jitte > board.

Pox was an awkward matchup, SDT is a card advantage whore, which made for a nice game to stabilize. Extirpate really hurt post board, and he took PtE & Factory in g2 (I lost), then StP & Scalding Tarn (yeah, I was confused too over that one). Relic was MVP out of the board, and when he went all in (thinking removal was clear), he made a Tomb of Urami token, which I promptly Transmuted Tolaria West --> Karakas.

B/R Goblins was a blowout against me, so we won't go into that. Just never drew Humility or Firespout. Was pretty ugly. Loam destroyed me g1, but g2 I was able to stabilize with Relic + Firespout = wipe Goyf & a fresh KotR. G3 I went from blind Counterbalance hellbent against a 5/6 Goyf to drawing another CB, taking 5, drawing Ajani to tap Goyf down, and then flipping a Standstill to counter Bob. Still need to test the matchup a little more, since I doubt that sequence will occur again.


@ gustha: Zomg 43 Factories, :eek:

Is 13 draw spells too much? I really dig the Faerie Macabre in the board, free and uncounterable GY hate. I thought about putting some in the UWb list I played in October of last year, but could never find the slots. I might retool again before Sunday and those might find their way into the board. No Crucible? I sided in Crucible last night all four matches, so I'm glad it was in the board. I didn't draw it g2 versus Loam and it was K-Grip'ed g3, but still. I like the idea of a green splash for Goyfs and whatnot, will have to see if I have funding for such a deck, Goyfs & Trops right now would murder me, or I could not eat for a month.

[RogueMTG]

...
Pox was an awkward matchup, SDT is a card advantage whore, which made for a nice game to stabilize. Extirpate really hurt post board, and he took PtE & Factory in g2 (I lost), then StP & Scalding Tarn (yeah, I was confused too over that one). Relic was MVP out of the board, and when he went all in (thinking removal was clear), he made a Tomb of Urami token, which I promptly Transmuted Tolaria West --> Karakas.
...


Aside from the hilariously random owning of Tomb of Urami, how did the Karakas/Tolaria West package feel? Is it something you're going to try again or probably not?

Was T-West ever randomly useful other than being a slow wastelandable Island?

[mossivo1986]

Aside from the hilariously random owning of Tomb of Urami, how did the Karakas/Tolaria West package feel? Is it something you're going to try again or probably not?

Was T-West ever randomly useful other than being a slow wastelandable Island?

When the format was slower Tolaria west was much more viable then it is currently in most models of landstill. Generally speaking ee or ruins are what you get, but obviously dustbowl and mishra's arn't too far off the calender. Just depends on the matchup and the game state.

[Mark Sun]

Aside from the hilariously random owning of Tomb of Urami, how did the Karakas/Tolaria West package feel? Is it something you're going to try again or probably not?

Was T-West ever randomly useful other than being a slow wastelandable Island?

As mossive said, it was more viable when it was slow. When I don't have the thing in my opener, I'm usually fine. It works pretty well as an uncounterable tutor. That said, this is still tentative. The applications are few for Karakas, I tried to list some out on the Salvation discussion thread, basically:

1. Iona. The one reason it's in here.

2. Gaddock Teeg. Not that bad now that I've gone from WoG --> Firespout, but protecting him under a CB/Top generally means game over. This at least gives it a chance.

3. Marit Lage token. Self explanatory, same deal with the Urami token, which indeed was my "living the dream" moment for the night.

And of course the conditional:

4. Progenitus under Humility

5. Kira to take off her first trigger shield.


And of course, add in 6. Urami token if you really must. The reaction around the table was better.

I liked the package though, I ran one way back here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?9280-%5BDeck%5D-UW%28x%29-Landstill&p=394910&viewfull=1#post394910) (horrible list/horrible play from me, but just saying), and it was able to get Lands/EE/the lone Tormod's Crypt. If I feel like Loam is something I'm less likely to see Sunday, then the package will go in. If not, it'll just be another Factory and Plains to help the mana base a little. So many nonbasics last night. Yikes.

[Hitman82]

This is the list I'm playing right now and why:

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
2 Firespout
2 Humilty
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Decree of Justice
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

3 Island
3 Plains
3 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
4 Flooded Strand
1 Arid Mesa
1 Scalding Tarn
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins

Before I played UGW, I almost exclusively played Landstill. I have a great deal of experience with the deck and quit playing it because it's actually not very good against the aggro-control decks if the pilots know how to play Magic. However, since Tarmagoyfs are so high right now, I sold them and am back to playing Landstill.

First things first, Legacy is a creature dominated format. Almost all the best decks win through creature beats. Compare the creatures/win conditions in other decks to Landstill's and we're terribly behind the curve. Our win conditions are very inefficient comparatively speaking and don't quickly win the game. I'm sure many of you will disagree with me but it's true. When every deck is playing Tarmagoyf and we're playing Elspeth and Decree of Justice or whatever lame endgame card we play, you have to admit that we're terribly outmatched in that department both mana-wise and power-wise. Because our win conditions can't stand alone, we have to play cards that make our win conditions better than the other win conditions in the format. I think it's absolutely incorrect to play less than two Humility. Humility is the only card that singlehandedly transforms our terrible win conditions into the best win conditions in the format. We simply outclass every other creature when we have Humility in play with any of our win conditions. It slows the beats down to such a degree that we can come from behind to develop our resources and translate them into card advantage through insane card drawing and/or board sweeping effects. The format revolves around the assumption that they can play undercosted monsters and quickly end a game before late game inevitability catches up with them and they're largely right.

Second, I think Wrath of God is obsolete. While it does handle Progenitus, so does Humility at the same cost. However, Humility provides an effect that allows us to have the upper hand on board almost all the time. Wrath of God just wipes a board temporarily for a buttload of mana. With cards like Daze and Spell Pierce out there, we can't play Wrath of God effectively. We're either taking too much damage before it resolves or it doesn't even resolve at all. The double white casting cost is prohibitive against Wasteland decks, too. Stifle can prevent us from getting basics when we need them and with Elspeth and Humility in the deck, another double white spell is too much.

Third, six "Swords" are a must right now. Merfolk simply outclasses us. With every deck pushing the envelope on aggression, we have to have the tools to deal with the threats now because if we accumulate too much damage, our options will be severely cut down by the mid-game. We can't afford to take an extra beat to wait a turn to pop the Explosives to get value out of it or use Firespout to two or three-for-one. If we're cornered into using the cards that develop us card advantage for one-for-ones, we're probably dead because we're running so inefficiently.

Fourth, the reason so many people go to time with Landstill is because we generally play so few real win conditions. Sometimes we just don't see them in a game until late in the game. That means we can't make a single mistake with out win conditions or we lose because we probably won't see another one in time. It's great and all to say, "Just don't make a mistake" but the truth of the matter is most Legacy players aren't nearly as good at Magic as they think they are and make several mistakes a game let alone a match. I've needed to play five real win conditions in order to not consistently have a problem with time. We should be designing our decks to be as busted as we can. My philosophy is to just play as many busted cards as I can and form a deck around them. Which leads me to my last point.

Jace is not good enough outside the control mirror. Granted, he's just fine when your hand is stuffed with removal to protect him or you have an early Elspeth, which is more of a problem for your opponent than Jace. However, paying three mana to only get one card now is way too slow and doesn't dig nearly deep enough for what you're paying for it. For three mana, you should be digging three cards deep. Thirst for Knowledge is probably better than Jace, especially if you play three Explosives and two Academy Ruins. If you're playing Top and Standstill and Brainstorm, why do you need Jace instead of something a lot better? Top, Standstill and Brainstorm are enough to get you what you need in the early game. Cards like Fact or Fiction and even Cunning Wish can be back-breaking. Why not play those instead? It's better to dig five deep than one deep or to tutor for exactly what you need when you need it than to draw one card for three mana.

Obviously, I'm weak to Ichorid/Reanimator and Combo with this mainboard so the sideboard addresses those matchups. However, this deck is extremely good at beating aggressive creature decks, which is what the format is largely like right now.

[Tinefol]

Except that it isn't. Should actually be okay against Zoo and all other random agressive decks, but would still lose to Merfolk.

[i_need_the_extra_turns]

@hitman

I like your list and your arguments.



First things first, Legacy is a creature dominated format. Almost all the best decks win through creature beats. Compare the creatures/win conditions in other decks to Landstill's and we're terribly behind the curve. Our win conditions are very inefficient comparatively speaking and don't quickly win the game. I'm sure many of you will disagree with me but it's true. When every deck is playing Tarmagoyf and we're playing Elspeth and Decree of Justice or whatever lame endgame card we play, you have to admit that we're terribly outmatched in that department both mana-wise and power-wise. Because our win conditions can't stand alone, we have to play cards that make our win conditions better than the other win conditions in the format. I think it's absolutely incorrect to play less than two Humility. Humility is the only card that singlehandedly transforms our terrible win conditions into the best win conditions in the format. We simply outclass every other creature when we have Humility in play with any of our win conditions. It slows the beats down to such a degree that we can come from behind to develop our resources and translate them into card advantage through insane card drawing and/or board sweeping effects. The format revolves around the assumption that they can play undercosted monsters and quickly end a game before late game inevitability catches up with them and they're largely right.

True, Humility is just a bomb and I would never go below 2. Humility just gives us sustainability compared to wrath.



Second, I think Wrath of God is obsolete. While it does handle Progenitus, so does Humility at the same cost. However, Humility provides an effect that allows us to have the upper hand on board almost all the time. Wrath of God just wipes a board temporarily for a buttload of mana. With cards like Daze and Spell Pierce out there, we can't play Wrath of God effectively. We're either taking too much damage before it resolves or it doesn't even resolve at all. The double white casting cost is prohibitive against Wasteland decks, too. Stifle can prevent us from getting basics when we need them and with Elspeth and Humility in the deck, another double white spell is too much.


Well, I will try Firespout for exact these arguments. But you have to fetch red and double white now. Before the black splash was only for EE or the board.




Third, six "Swords" are a must right now. Merfolk simply outclasses us. With every deck pushing the envelope on aggression, we have to have the tools to deal with the threats now because if we accumulate too much damage, our options will be severely cut down by the mid-game. We can't afford to take an extra beat to wait a turn to pop the Explosives to get value out of it or use Firespout to two or three-for-one. If we're cornered into using the cards that develop us card advantage for one-for-ones, we're probably dead because we're running so inefficiently.


That is the way to go!!!


4 or 5 win conditions....hm.. Im fine with 4 but I understand your point.
And yes, Jace is awful.


I have some questions on your list:

1. Why 3 Wastelands and no CoW? Maybe we can reduce the landcount to 23 and go to 1-2 Wastelands.
2. Fact or Fiction or Top? In a fast metagame, top seems the best choice.

[GoldenCid]

@hitman


I have some questions on your list:

1. Why 3 Wastelands and no CoW? Maybe we can reduce the landcount to 23 and go to 1-2 Wastelands.
2. Fact or Fiction or Top? In a fast metagame, top seems the best choice.

23 lands isn't poor??

FoF, in my experience showed to be "agressive" it goes for the answer and is out of chalice range. But top + BS + fetch sound good too.


1 [ALA] Ajani Vengeant


How did it work?? Is nice onother win cond??

[Mark Sun]

How did it work?? Is nice onother win cond??

Well, yet to be determined how effective it really is, but as a 1-of, it was fine. I'll let you guys know after tomorrow :tongue:

Basically, it:

-Shines in control mirror, disrupting part of your opponent's mana source (or God forbid I see the mirror on Sunday, another Factory, etc). If it reaches Ultimate... yeah.

-Kind of a "Meekstone" effect on an opposing creature, say, Goyf.

-Uncounterable Lightning Helix when you need it.


Again, it remains to be seen how effective it can be through X rounds, but it's more of a utility card, imo, than a win condition.

[GoldenCid]

I like ajani V in a non wish version mostly because it's ife source. I found that wish to pulse of the fields saves matches and i don't want to loose the life gain cutting wishes for ajani. I mention wishes because is the only card i could cut the another is FOF but...i'm not sure. Maybe an 1 FoF, 1 AV, 2 Wish configuration could be good.
On the other hand Red splash doesn't give us great wish targets except pyroblast or REB that i'm not sure if they are such a card to wish for them.

[Mark Sun]

I split Top 4 at the Meandeck Open today, going 4-1-1 in the Swiss and winning in the first pairing of Top 8. A quick summary:

Round 1: Win 2-0 against terri-bad Goblins.
Round 2: Lose 0-2 against Merfolk (never drew a single Firespout or red Blast, looks like this matchup will still be a monkey on my back)
Round 3: Win 2-1 against ANT.
Round 4: Win 2-0 against Zoo.
Round 5: Win 2-1 against Zoo.
Round 6: ID in to the Top 8.

Top 8: Win 2-1 against Pox.


Lots of schoolwork to do tonight, so a report will be up sometime tomorrow. Decklist is up here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16596-Meandeck-Open-RESULTS%21-Feb-21-2010%21-Top-8-Decklists-and-Metagame-Breakdown) at least.


Edit: I like procrastinating. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16602-%5BColumbus-OH%5D-UWr-Landstill-Splits-T4-of-Meandeck-Open)

[gustha]

Mark, what a nice list :p

I'd change those 2 humilities all the time with 2 counterspells, and I'm still trying to fit in jace to up the cc3 count for counterbalance, so that I can fully abuse of it even in the stax/stacker/enchantress Mu, not only vs combo/zoo/burn/dreadstill/mirror. I'm testing the tolaria -> karakas tech and... it's tecchish :) It does mess up a little the manabase, but it's worth having a uncounterable answer to iona (Or, as we call her in Italy, Iona la Porcona or Iona la Troiona, that is to say that big b****), which also vanishes Marit Lage and gaddock as well. Pretty narrow indeed, but still worth.
Surprised you lost to merfolk with 3 helixes (2 humilities) 6 swords 3 rebs 3 firespout 3 EE... O.O

[Misplayer]

Mark, what a nice list :p

I'd change those 2 humilities all the time with 2 counterspells, and I'm still trying to fit in jace to up the cc3 count for counterbalance, so that I can fully abuse of it even in the stax/stacker/enchantress Mu, not only vs combo/zoo/burn/dreadstill/mirror. I'm testing the tolaria -> karakas tech and... it's tecchish :) It does mess up a little the manabase, but it's worth having a uncounterable answer to iona (Or, as we call her in Italy, Iona la Porcona or Iona la Troiona, that is to say that big b****), which also vanishes Marit Lage and gaddock as well. Pretty narrow indeed, but still worth.
Surprised you lost to merfolk with 3 helixes (2 humilities) 6 swords 3 rebs 3 firespout 3 EE... O.O

If you're curving out your deck for CB so it's effective in more than just the standard combo/burn/whatever matchups, why not play it maindeck?

[gustha]

I would then just play dreadstill/countertop/whatever... And I still like EE more than counterbalance... Also, I'm not force to adapt the curve maindeck so I can have all my tools, while post-side I can balance the curve as better as the Mu requires, so that every Mu has is "personal" curve (more 0-1 for ant, more 0-1-2 for burn and the like, more 3-4 cc for enchantress/staxx etc.)

[Mark Sun]

Mark, what a nice list :p

I'd change those 2 humilities all the time with 2 counterspells, and I'm still trying to fit in jace to up the cc3 count for counterbalance, so that I can fully abuse of it even in the stax/stacker/enchantress Mu, not only vs combo/zoo/burn/dreadstill/mirror. I'm testing the tolaria -> karakas tech and... it's tecchish :) It does mess up a little the manabase, but it's worth having a uncounterable answer to iona (Or, as we call her in Italy, Iona la Porcona or Iona la Troiona, that is to say that big b****), which also vanishes Marit Lage and gaddock as well. Pretty narrow indeed, but still worth.
Surprised you lost to merfolk with 3 helixes (2 humilities) 6 swords 3 rebs 3 firespout 3 EE... O.O

Haha, it would have helped to draw the Firespouts/REB :frown:

I wasn't happy about that post-matchup, but you really can't do much about it. I also probably tried to play much too aggressively (understandable with 11 spot removal + 3 sweeps) against the deck, and like an idiot I kept the Standstills in there to apply pressure (major punt there, as I am used to 3x Decree in the main). Turns out he just had another slow rolling draw, and it really screwed me.

I agree with what you said about Humility --> Counterspell. Maybe, MAYBE Humility to the SB, but yeah, I wasn't too impressed with it yesterday in the Swiss (saved my ass against Abyssal Persecutor wtfpox though), and I even boarded it out against Zoo all 5 games I played against them. Much appreciation for the list :tongue:

[klaus]

I've cut Humility a while ago and never looked back.
If I were to play it again it'd get a MD slot, though, cause people tend to board in Grips etc. G2, diminishing it's value.
Konsultant once even suggested boarding it out against green decks.

[Mark Sun]

I've cut Humility a while ago and never looked back.
If I were to play it again it'd get a MD slot, though, cause people tend to board in Grips etc. G2, diminishing it's value.
Konsultant once even suggested boarding it out against green decks.

I can agree with that, I talked to Geoff a while ago and he did talk about how you lose a small percentage of your matchups. I suppose a good example was losing to Merfolk with Humility on the board g1, that was embarassing and Humility does very little in that matchup to begin with. But I understand your logic for g2, it was just a suggestion against the decks that this list isn't tuned to beat well without a little help. I myself agree that the existence of Krosan Grip makes Humility lose a lot of its value after g1, and I boarded them out against Zoo and I don't regret the decision.

[rsaunder]

I can agree with that, I talked to Geoff a while ago and he did talk about how you lose a small percentage of your matchups. I suppose a good example was losing to Merfolk with Humility on the board g1, that was embarassing and Humility does very little in that matchup to begin with. But I understand your logic for g2, it was just a suggestion against the decks that this list isn't tuned to beat well without a little help. I myself agree that the existence of Krosan Grip makes Humility lose a lot of its value after g1, and I boarded them out against Zoo and I don't regret the decision.

I've been doing the same for a while, and thus why I'm not super into humility. It's hard to destroy a sorcery.

I think a build I had some success with a month or so ago packed 2/2 humility/wrath and then boarded out humility against the format g2/3 for spot removal. If they're boarding in grips, they gotta take out some speed to do it, generally speaking.

[Reagens]

Although I agree with the opinions above I still play a single copy of humility MD because it is so hard for some decks (G1) to deal with. It also stops CiP effects and that's something that is very important to me (especially against gobs).
It goes out against decks playing green though.

[arebennian]

I think if you are going to play Humility you have to play Decree. In your match against Merfolk Morbid, you would then have X more outs after it resolved, rather than just looking for firespout.

I don't know what you pull out, but Humility + Decree just go together.

[Pelikanudo]

Hello, after some testings I'm coming up with the following list:

1 Tropical Island
3 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Tolaria West
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins
2 Wasteland

4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Engineered Explosives
2 Wrath of God
2 Humility
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Decree of Justice
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Cunning Wish
// Sideboard:
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Dismantle Blow
SB: 1 Pulse of the Fields
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Diabolic edict
SB: 2 Meddling Mage
SB: 1 Ravenous Trap
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus

My explanations:

You all boys will ask and tropical for? for the fourth colour, which makes EE even more broken and now we can destroy elspeth, ajanis,etc. , I substituted it by the E.Dragon, but I'm not sure about it. here I need suggestions

The more I play EE the more I like it so I'll play 4, the ritgh number, why you boys play vindicate, EE is better, EE helps us vs vials, turns 1 from zoos and handle those c.b which is what I mainly want.

I'd like to play 2nd Decree but preferred to play the 4th EE in this slot I'm not convinced, but I' do not expect to face too many landstill in the GP and if so my EE will face their planeswalker...

I'm also thinking in cutting the 2 wraths, one may be substituted instead the 4th EE and leaving the slot for decree intact, and the other by ? Nevinirral/new Jace/ senseis/Oblivion stone.... do not know, althoutgh I prefer to keep those wraths... in here I need suggestions too.

I'm also thinking in replacing the 2 wastelands by 1tropical 1 D.Bowl and leave the E.Dragon slot suggestions about this?


about certain match ups I fear to face Dream halls can some one tell me which card will name with mage? Ultimatum maybe?


well I need your suggestions.

[Felidae]

As promised I'm able to give a better analysis about the UWg Goyfstill (decklist can be found on page 188).
Unfortunatly i missed my train to our weekly tourney (yeah i don't own a driving licence), but two weeks filled with testing with my mates and on MWS (if can call this "testing") gave me a better view over the positiv and negativ sides of the deck.

We tested against the most common decks in our current meta (wich include LED-Dredge, Merfolk, Goblins, Zoo, ANT, Team America, Canadian *****, 43 Lands, Aggro Loam, Bant (with / without NO) and Survival (Bant or "Oldschool").
I also tested more or less on MWS against Dreamhalls, Random.dec, Dreadstill, Staxx and NLU.

So I like to start with a short view over the Tier 1 decks:
Led-Dredge:
Game 1: Normaly it looks a bit better then regular Landstill, Spell Pierce is great against early cantrips and Goyf can grow really fast. If we are lucky enough to draw 3-4 of our Sword effects we might get there, but G1 is still in favour of the Dredgeplayer (did anyone expect something else?).
Postboard: We have 5 Relics/Crypts, together with 8 Swordeffects. Kitchenfinks worked out pretty well,too.
Even if we can't handle an resolved Iona (except for winning the damagerace), G2 is more or less in our favour (I keep the term more or less, because we all know what stupid kind of things Dredge is able to do ;) ).

Merfolk (or Enemy No1):
Game 1: Now is the time where our Goyfs shine, if we keep them away from 3 Lords he can outclass nearly everone of them. Turn 1 Vial with Daze backup is still a problem, same goes for the overwhelming forces of 12 Lords, all in all the first game is a bit in favour for the Merfolk player, but we are close behind ;).
Postboard: Now we got more Paths and Grips, they might add Submerge, wich can be anoying, but it seems to be even up to positiv for us after the board (or maybe I'm just increadibly lucky with my hands).

Goblins:
Game 1: Goyf can stall most of there dudes and 6 Swords do the rest, the Turn 1 Vial is painfull again (I miss the EE, if I only could find some space : / ) and Incinerators are able to kill bigger Goyfs, yet we gain some time do to the great staller, to cstabalize the board.
Postboard: Same as Merfolk, adding more Paths and Finks / Grips seal the deal.

Aggro Loam: If we can prevent them from an explosiv start with Spell Snare / Pierce we can mostly stabalize. Goyfs stall each other and 6 Swords seem to be enough against KotR / Terravor. If we get our lonly LftL we can be sure to win.
Postboard: Massiv graveyard hate together with spotremoval and Grips for Assault / Chalices look pretty amazing ;).

ANT:
Game 1: Even with a faster clock and 3 Spellpierces we don't have a great game 1, if we don't draw the nuts and them draw crap for a couple of turns.
Postboard: Ethersworn Canonist is just awesome, even if you can be sure that we will be bounced at your eot sometimes. I also like Kitchenfinks, as they simply mean more preassure on the field and an extra spell for the combo turn.

Canadian *****:
Game 1: I miss the Explosiv again, but Mishra and Goyf can stall early Mongose and other Goyfs (if we have some counter for their postcombat burn). LftL shines again if you can keep wasting their lands.
Postboard: Relics keep them small while we actually really don't need to care about our own Goyfs (Mishra/ Eslpeh can win on thier own, as they usually do).

Zoo:
Game 1: Even if the lose of Explosiv have certainly weaken the matchup we have acces to the great staller aka Goyf, who can comped with their entire board (well maybe not with KftR).
Postboard: Kitchenfinks, more Paths and some Relics are the key to our victory.

I'll come to the Tier 2 decks later ;).

Sorry for the rush and short explanation, but the deck doesn't feel really different from "ordinary" Landstill, the fact that I personally like the most.

cheers

Felidae

PS.: As allways I like to point out that this is only my personal view/experience, I might me completely wrong and you are are free to tell me if you think so ;).

[Fossil4182]

Is there a reason not to play The Tabernacle At Pendrell Vale in the deck? It seems as though it would be helpful by locking their mana down, thereby denying them options. It would also appear to slow creature based decks.

I could see issues with "missing" a land drop in a deck that needs to maximize its resource use each turn. However, the benefits of Tabernacle may out weigh the possible set backs. Any thoughts?

[Shawn]

It doesn't tap for mana. This is a deck that wants to hit it's first four land drops, preferably five or six. You also can't abuse it like Stax or Lands, as you don't have Armageddon or repeatable Wastelands. More often then not it will have little impact on the game, since many decks run large enough individual threats that they can afford to upkeep the Tabernacle.

[Pelikanudo]

Hello, after some testings I'm coming up with the following list:

1 Tropical Island
3 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Tolaria West
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins
2 Wasteland

4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Engineered Explosives
2 Wrath of God
2 Humility
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Decree of Justice
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Cunning Wish
// Sideboard:
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Dismantle Blow
SB: 1 Pulse of the Fields
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Diabolic edict
SB: 2 Meddling Mage
SB: 1 Ravenous Trap
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus

My explanations:

You all boys will ask and tropical for? for the fourth colour, which makes EE even more broken and now we can destroy elspeth, ajanis,etc. , I substituted it by the E.Dragon, but I'm not sure about it. here I need suggestions

The more I play EE the more I like it so I'll play 4, the ritgh number, why you boys play vindicate, EE is better, EE helps us vs vials, turns 1 from zoos and handle those c.b which is what I mainly want.

I'd like to play 2nd Decree but preferred to play the 4th EE in this slot I'm not convinced, but I' do not expect to face too many landstill in the GP and if so my EE will face their planeswalker...

I'm also thinking in cutting the 2 wraths, one may be substituted instead the 4th EE and leaving the slot for decree intact, and the other by ? Nevinirral/new Jace/ senseis/Oblivion stone.... do not know, althoutgh I prefer to keep those wraths... in here I need suggestions too.

I'm also thinking in replacing the 2 wastelands by 1tropical 1 D.Bowl and leave the E.Dragon slot suggestions about this?


about certain match ups I fear to face Dream halls can some one tell me which card will name with mage? Ultimatum maybe?


well I need your suggestions.

Can someone help me with this althoutgh it's via private messages¡¡¡
Thanks

[PhillyCheeseSteak]

Hey guys, I have been a longtime lurker on these boards but never posted. This deck is by far my favourite and a couple weeks ago here in Ontario we had 2 legacy tourneys in one weekend. The first had 35 people and my landstill deck won the Mox!! Woot woot and the 2nd had 48 people with my deck making the Top 8 then losing to Merfolk. The field was relatively well represented seeing all the major decks and then some fun randoms as well. The point was that I wanted to share my decklist and then receive some thoughts/feedback regarding it. A few notes on the deck...I built this using all the ideas I saw/read and have used in the past (I haven't used Landstill in Legacy in a long time) and I just procured the Moat so I definitely wanted to play it! :) Also, there were times when Moat resolved and the opponent literally had no Game 1 answer to it. BOOYAH! Ideas on improving the merfolk matchup would be great because that is one of the most difficult.

With no further ado...

2 Engineered Explosives
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Counterspell
4 Standstill
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Cunning Wish
1 Moat
1 Humility
2 Wrath of God
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
4 Force of Will
2 Decree of Justice
1 Academy Ruins
1 Wasteland
1 Dust Bowl
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Polluted Delta
1 Tolaria West
2 Island
2 Plains

SB:
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Extirpate
1 Ravenous Trap
2 Path to Exile
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Dismantling Blow
1 Mindbreak Trap
3 Spell Snare
1 Crucible of Worlds

Hopefully I will be on here regularly from now on. And thanks in advance for the advice.

[Felidae]

First of all gz to your finish.

There are some smaller parts in your list I don't like at all, wich are mainly the single E.Tutor and the lonly Top. Even if "random" might be the wrong word it looks like you could better play a 3rd Explosiv instead of the Tutor (even if he provides a faster way to get Moat / Humility online) and Top might be Eternal Dragon, Path or even FoF.
I'd play a 2nd Humility over Moat every time, but as it is your personal preference you should definitely keep it.
With a Crucible in your mainboard a 2nd or even a 3rd Wasteland (instead of Dustbowl/Mishra) looks worthwhile.

I suppose that the Spell Snares in your Sideboard are actually Spell Pierces?

cheers

Felidae_

[Reagens]

This is the list where I went 94th place in Madrid with.

Match ups were

3* merfolk
2* painter servant
1* dreadstill
1* rock loam
2* zoo
2* ant
1* ichorid
1* faeries
1*combo elves


The list:

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Wrath of God
3 Decree of Justice
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Eternal Dragon
3 Vindicate
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
3 Fact or Fiction
1 Humility
3 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
2 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland


3 engineered plague
4 extirpate
4 Ethersworn canonist
3 Kitchen finks
1 Ajani gold-mane

Special thanks to Morbid- for some very sound last minute advice, to Steven from benelegacy (we almost never agree, but he has some very interesting views on the deck), and team MCG for testing.

I will write a little report when I have time & motivation. The experience was very exhausting :). I also don't have notes so it'll be a very sketchy report.

[rsaunder]

Congrats on the finish!

I know a little while back both Rogue and myself expressed an interest in playtesting Jace M. again, and I've done a little work with him. All in all, I'm impressed. I don't know if he's earned 2 slots in my build, but I think at this point a 1/1 split with FoF is in order. What I've noticed it that his bounce is pretty solid with standstill, and very relevant since not many decks but goblins can keep more than one threat on the table against us and he forces overextending. I've had some success trying to "lock" opponents out of the games by scrying them every turn, which has been marginallay successful. It's better against decks like reanimator or merfolk where they need certain cards instead of decks like zoo where they have a decent chance of drawing gas even with the top gas card gone. I'm not sure it's a better strategy than shooting yourself with it or the brainstorm looking for an elspeth, but his ultimate grows quickly and I've gotten a few wins with it, which FEELS good. My one issue right now is that I'm not sure if he's better than an Ajani Vengent or even Els#3.

Thoughts? Experiences?

[Mark Sun]

@ Reagens,

Very impressive! You were a Day 2'er, I had hopes when I saw 4 LS lists in the 237 :smile:. I am glad to see some success from LS in this new year. Will there be a tournament report for us?

rsaunder, about Jace 2.0, I recommended the UWr List I played for a friend and he swapped -2 FoF for +2 Jace 2.0, and I am told it worked very well for him. You're correct in saying that the scry ability is diminished with threat density/library manipulation, but he was able to use the Ultimate more than a few times with protection from board sweepers and removal. I know you and I are part of the discussion on MTGS about Reanimator hate, and Jace seems to be a pretty good answer (better than my janky Tolaria West / Karakas tech, anyways) instead of my idea of using Curfew out of the board.

Unfortunately, I'm trying to build TES on a student's budget so it will be a while until I own my own pair of Jaces. I originally planned to play at SCG Indy, but it happens to be the Sunday right before Finals Week at Ohio State, so I probably won't be attending (sadly, Spring Quarter finals and graduation take place the first week of June, which is the SCG Philly Open... fml). Reanimator is popular right now and I was hoping to run the gauntlet with it, but oh well.

[Reagens]

I'll see what I can remember from Madrid.

Round 1-3: bye

Round 4: Ichorid

Game 1: Great. My first nightmare match-up of the day :(. Game 1 I can stall just long enough to resolve humility. I have to play every dirty trick in the book (wasting my own animated factory among others) but eventually manage to win the game after I countered 3 hardcast golgari-grave-troll.
Game 2: The game swings back and forth after I slow him down with extirpate on his first and only dredge outlet. My 2 engineered plague get the axe (second one was deliberate since I was holding humility as well). I resolve a canonist as well and I can start some damage. Eventually the ground gets clogged and I wil be facing lethal next turn. He has a nacromoeba as well, so I can't fly in for the necessary damage with canonist (I had Elspeth). Eventually I play humility, setting everybody on the ground, I give canonist +3/+3 and flying for lethal damage.

Round 5: Merfolk
(I think against 1 of the Rossini's)

Game 1: merfolk does what it does best I think.
Game 2: I am force to break standstill twice and at a certain point he discards a lord of atlantis which cost him the game (I killed the other one in his hand).
Game 3: He has to mull to 4 or 5 and has no lands.When he does get the lands he's to far behind.

Round 6: Saito ANT.

Game 1&2: this wasn't even close. I got the snot beaten out of me. Very bad match-up.

Round 7: Merfolk

Again? I can’t believe my luck . I don’t remember much, but I was VERY happy with kitchen finks.

Round 8:
Painter/servant. After a protracted game 1 I lose.
Game 2 sees me staring at painter and grindstone extirpated, but since he can red blast every relevant spell I see, he kills me anyway.

Round 9: Faeries
2-1
Engineered plague saves the day twice after I lost game 1 to a turn 2 bitterblossom. Beats from kitchen finks helped as well.

Day 2:

Round 1:
Merfolk. AGAIN!!! I curse my luck yet again and get going. Game 1 Merfolk does what is is supposed to to and game 2 I just can’t keep up with his tempo.

Round 2:
Painter/servant
I win game 1 on humility (I know painter still ‘paints’ everything, but my opponent scoops anyway)
Game 2: at a certain point he has painter in play. I play eot FoF with him having 1 red open. Predictably he has red blast (FoF was bait anyway). I extirpate his FoW to make sure vindicate resolves in my turn and I extirpate painter as well.

Round 3:
Rock loam something with loam, FoW, intuition, crop rotation and many other strange choices.
Game 1: it is too difficult to get grips with the deck and I lose when he sets up a loam engine
Game 2: I win 5 minutes before time is called with some lucky draws and barely hanging in. He stalled for the entire game 2 (enough to matter, not enough to call a judge)
Game 3: I decide a draw is the maximum for me and as such I decide to employ his own tactic. He is probably 1 attack phase short of killing me. I feel very little sympathy for him since he did it to himself.

Round 4:
Zoo:
Game 1&2: I just see too much removal and have enough CA to matter. Game 2 I play around his (very obvious) PoP

Round 5:
Combo elves:
Game 1: I win barely but it’s a win nonetheless.
Game 2: I have plagues and I was sandbagging my humility for his krosan grips he never boarded in)

Round 6: Dreadstill
Game 1: I have the perfect hand with 2 explosives and other shenanigans and still get beaten after killing his first 3(!!) dreadnoughts because I drew lands for 7 turns and not 1 was an answer to his relentless factory. What a frustrating thing.
Game 2: Once again I am screwed over when I am under blood moon and getting bludgeoned by a trinket mage and I topdecked 5 lands in a row (yes I pile shuffle after EVERY game). One of the most frustrating moments in my magic career ever 

Round 7: ANT
Very strange.
Game 1 my opponent is completely exhausted and ad nauseams himself to death when he could have stopped and killed me anyway.
Game 2 he loses yet again because of his own decisions, instead of my great magic skills…

Round 8: Zoo
Game 1&2: He has al lot of tempo and I have nothing and I see even less (I had to mull).

[RogueMTG]

Congrats on the finish!

I know a little while back both Rogue and myself expressed an interest in playtesting Jace M. again, and I've done a little work with him. All in all, I'm impressed. I don't know if he's earned 2 slots in my build, but I think at this point a 1/1 split with FoF is in order. What I've noticed it that his bounce is pretty solid with standstill, and very relevant since not many decks but goblins can keep more than one threat on the table against us and he forces overextending. I've had some success trying to "lock" opponents out of the games by scrying them every turn, which has been marginallay successful. It's better against decks like reanimator or merfolk where they need certain cards instead of decks like zoo where they have a decent chance of drawing gas even with the top gas card gone. I'm not sure it's a better strategy than shooting yourself with it or the brainstorm looking for an elspeth, but his ultimate grows quickly and I've gotten a few wins with it, which FEELS good. My one issue right now is that I'm not sure if he's better than an Ajani Vengent or even Els#3.

Thoughts? Experiences?

I've played with Jace 2.0 a little bit, deffinitely performed his anti-Iona role well. I have swapped him with 2x FoF for now. Was hoping to get a lot of playing in last weekend, but my planned trip to Star City was unfortunately foiled by rediculous amounts of snow and Eli getting the flu. I'll try and offer some more insight once I've had a little more time with it.

Congratz to Philly and Reagens on their respective finishes.

@Reagens: Way to take it to Ichorid!

I love the simplicity of your sideboard, I think I've been over thinking things a lot.

[NicefaceLOL]

I recently played this deck at the SCG 5K after not being able to borrow anything else. I had never played it before but it was alot of fun. I would like to make a newer updated list though I am unsure where to start. This is the list I played.

Artifacts
2 Crucible Of Worlds
2 Engineered Explosives

Enchantments
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Standstill

Instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Fact Or Fiction
4 Force Of Will
4 Swords To Plowshares

Planeswalkers
1 Jace, The Mind Sculptor

Sorceries
1 Crime / Punishment
1 Decree Of Justice

Basic Lands
1 Island

Lands
4 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Nantuko Monastery
1 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland

Sideboard:
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Engineered Plague
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Krosan Grip

Nantuko Monastery was awful almost every time I played it, either I didn't have w/g or I didn't have threshold. I will be cutting it for some other manland. Jace was amazing all day. I only ulted him 4 times, but whenever I cast him I was able to almost immediately take control of the game. I recommend trying him out if you haven't. Four deed, Two EE and One Crime/Punishment was way too many. I would want to cut those down. The DoJ was a stifle, but I wanted one extra win condition. I only cycled it once though it was helpful.

These were my matchups at the 5K
Rnd 1 Merfolk 2-1
I lost game two due to getting greedy and playing two EP.

Rnd 2 Zoo 2-0

Rnd 3 Merfolk 1-2

Rnd 4 Zoo 2-0

Rnd 5 Belcher 2-1

Rnd 6 Probant 2-1

Rnd 7 Zoo with Treetop Village 1-2

Rnd 8 Enchantress 1-0

Rnd 9 Reanimator 2-1


I was also wondering the reason behind dropping the colors down. I only had problems activating Monastery

[RogueMTG]

...

I was also wondering the reason behind dropping the colors down. I only had problems activating Monastery

There is another thread for 4c Landstill, you might be better off posting this there.

All the same, your list looks ultra greedy. I have trouble believing you were able to reliably cast anything with nine lands that don't produce colored mana in a four color deck.

Playing UW with a splash allows us to have a resilient, reliable manabase with a good number of basics so that we can avoid getting blown out by Wasteland and Blood Moon type effects.

[Reagens]

Playing UW with a splash allows us to have a resilient, reliable manabase with a good number of basics so that we can avoid getting blown out by Wasteland and Blood Moon type effects.

Even the 3 colors manabase is borderline I think.
3-color landstill can withstand wasteland, stifle or vindicate but not a combination of. Recurring wasteland is a problem in itself when left unchecked.

Losses to merfolk can be largely attributed to the fact that you are not able to go to 4 mana in a timely fashion. As such their dazes, cursecatchers and other annoying things are practically impossible to get over. Post-board they probably play spell pierce for even further annoyance. This is why I chose Kitchen finks on the side (the fact that it is also good against Zoo is another bonus) and is also why I managed to go 2-1 against merfolk in matches.

[rsaunder]

@ Reanimator matchup: I think Faerie Macabere is the right answer to an increase in popularity. Uncounterable, undisenchantable, unduressable, instant speed pinpoint graveyard hate sounds pretty good right now.

[Antonius]

here's a list i've been brainstorming on. Technically, it's a countertop deck, but I figured I would post it here because it is, in many ways, an evolution of Landstill. It features all of the same bombs and synergies, just not the iconic card-draw spell:

3 Mishra's Factory
4 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
5 Island
5 Plains

2 Elspeth
2 Humility
2 Jace Beleren

3 Top

4 Swords
3 Journey to Nowhere

4 Brainstorm
4 Counterbalance
4 Force
4 Spell Snare
3 Propaganda
2 Repeal

--Board
4 Pithing Needle
4 Relic of Progenitus
2 Wrath of God
3 Krosan Grip

I have Journey to Nowhere instead of Path to Exile because it's 2cc better fills out the curve to make counterbalance more effective. I'm not sure if I'm going to keep repeals--I only like them because they can trip. Propaganda isn't final either--it could be switched out for Crucibles. And if I run crucible, then I'd probably dump a tundra or a basic for some dust bowls. The needles in the SB are primarily for Vial and Wasteland.

[gustha]

The list isn't that bad, though in some ways I don't think counterbalance belongs to the maindeck of landstill. However:
-i don't get the point in playing humility anymore. It's dead in many Mu's, dead in g2 after grip, too slow vs merfolk etc. I'd rather have doj or even wrath... I think that propaganda isn't that useful either, you don't run a mana denial plan to significatively take the advantage out of it, I'd rather use firespout which is nuts (I believe it's almost mandatory) in the fast aggro meta, helps vs ichorid as well (though ofc propaganda here is better), and comboes with humility.
-repeal: counterspell are just that better. If you wish to have bounce MD, you'd better run cunning wish, or simply try jace2.0 in the slots of old jace.
-journey to nowhere: path gets hit by cb. This gets hit by cb, stifle, grip, EE, spell snare...
-no standstill = no draw power (besides jace) + less 2cc's for CB.

i'd run:
3 Elspeth
3 Jace Beleren/cunning wish

4 Top
3 Brainstorm

4 Swords
2 Path to Exile
3 Firespout

4 Counterbalance
4 Force
4 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell

cc1: 17 (a little high)
cc2: 7 (a little low, but JtN is crap...)
cc3: 6 (good)
eventually you can substitute pat to exhile with helix, to raise the 2cc's. Still, you miss some big threath like dreadnought or goyf or whatever, but firespout should be able to shut off tribal and zoo. sb needle is not needed: EE is just that better against vial (and firespout is ofc THAT better vs tribal), and you just don't have to fear wasteland with 10 BASICS Plus needle is useless in many other cases.
3 reb
3 aura of silence (nuts vs ant too)
3 relic
2 faerie macabre
3 Kitchen Finks
1 jace the mind sculptor

(or obviously another if you choose to run wish again)

[Antonius]

I disagree on Humility. IMO, the 4cc bombs like Humility, Elspeth, Moat (sometimes), DoJ and Fact are the only reasons left to play landstill, and of those cards, Humility and Elspeth are clearly the most powerful. There is no card that even comes close to humility's power when it comes to stomping on a certain strategy (in this case, creasture-based aggro) couple that with the fact that it combos with two other pivotal cards in your deck (elspeth, Manlands) and I think it is essential. The only matchup where it should be relevant, but could sometimes backfire is Aggro Loam, and that's because Crusher gets +1/+1 counters put on it. Part of the reason I thought of running Propaganda main is because its power compounds greatly with Humility.

[gustha]

IMO, the 4cc bombs like Humility, Elspeth, Moat (sometimes), DoJ and Fact are the only reasons left to play landstillOf all these, I think the only reason left is Elspeth... Firespout in the fastened meta is superior to humility, and wrath is superior to humility in any case, being able to actually solve problems and not just to stall until you (hopefully) find a solution. The fact is, we need cards that do well on its own, not just in synergy with other cards, because sometimes we don't get the time to draw out all of our synergyes. And that's precisely the case of humility. All in all, nowadys I see it as the worst card in landstill, being good only vs zoo preside and ofc goblins, MU's that already are playable to favorable for us. Humility is irrelevant vs aggroloam, irrelevant vs reanimator (they just discard it before you can actually cast it, or just counter/bounce it), irrelevant vs dreadstill (we should have an edge on this MU already), totally useless vs aggrocontrol (we should beat them as well, exception made for countertop progenitus maube), clunky vs merfolk, too slow vs ichorid...Ofc good vs zoo and gobbos, but here firespout >>> humility, as it is in many other cases. Propaganda as well is good only IF humility is out, but I'm starting to see too many IF's in your reasoning... (Also note firespout >>> propaganda: it works on its own, doesn't need other cards to work).

[Antonius]

I wouldn't say that Humility is irrelevant vs AggroLoam... it nullifies 8 of their beaters (goyf, vore) and, most importantly, Nullifies Confidant. This leaves them to rely on a Crusher, which must have grown before Humility came into play to be relevant. If you can get Humility in before they start growing a Crusher (not that hard), then the only path to victory they have left is Seismic Assault, and you can shut that down by using CB to lock Loam--or by just countering Assault. How is Humility irrelevant vs Dreadstill? Or any other Aggro-Control deck? Last time I checked, they all relied upon creatures to win.

Also, all these matchups where Humility is supposedly irrelevant are matchups where Firespout is irrelevant! Firespout will very, very rarely kill a Goyf a Vore or a Crusher. It will never kill a Dreadnought or a War Monk, or a Tombstalker or a Progenitus. Hell, you probably cant even kill a Trygon or a Clique unless you're splashing green.

As for Merfolk/Zoo/Goblins-- all of these decks have ways of recovering, in some cases very, very quickly (ringleader, Sylvan Library, Standstill will almost always be in Merfolk's favor) from sweeper effects. Alternatively, they can play around them by trying to slow roll you and exhaust your spot removal. There is no recovering from Humility. Either your remove it or you lose.
Goblins have no answer, except maybe Anarchy, Zoo could get grip after boarding and Merfolk have Echoing truth--but you have answers to those answers in the from of 3cc Counterbalance (grip, most everything) and/or Force (everything else)

As for Firespout vs Propagada--Firespout is better. I just started off with Propaganda in my list because I was afraid I might not have enough blue cards for Force. But I'll dump JTN for Mana Leak. As for repeal--I think maindeck bounce is really good against decks like Zoo, sometimes merfolk, because it helps you stall against 1cc threats like Nacatl or Vial. Repeal's built in cantrip makes it especially good at this role. Its flexible casting cost also makes it really good at removing an opposing counterbalance.

my new list:

3 Mishra's Factory
4 Flooded Strand
1 Arid Mesa
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
5 Island
4 Plains
1 Mountain

2 Elspeth
2 Humility
2 Jace Beleren

3 Top

4 Swords
3 Firespout

4 Brainstorm
4 Counterbalance
4 Force
4 Spell Snare
3 Mana Leak
2 Repeal

[gustha]

It's not true. Humility does not nullify a thing. Firespout does. Wrath does. Decree does, in some ways. Vindicate does. Swords/path do. EE do. And so on. All of aggroloam's beaters are in the range of EE... I think you have to worry much about LD than beaters, provided you can counter/get rid of chalice. Incidentally, 2/3 AL creatures fall under spell snare (confi & goyf). Humility is nearly irrelevant, post-sb is worse vs. grip; beaters post-sb are kept at bay by relic, no need for humility. And aggroloam have so many other ways to be annoying. Humility is irrelevant vs dreadstill and I always board it out. The reason is simple: if they want to beat us they must play the control deck i.e. first resolve counterbalance. If they can't, then we face a more or less crappy deck with 8 creatures that fall under EE/path/stp = more or less 11-12 removals for 8 creatures, some of which recurrable with ruins. Goyf is kept at bay by elspeth, no need to waste counters/removals on him, we can concentrate on nought (only 4, and more stifle on our fetches the less for nought). No need for humility. Irrelevenat because redundant vs any aggrocontrol deck: we should win vs bant and the like, period. Mirror: dead. Enchantress: almost dead.

The claim that firespout is irrelevant in all these Mu's you mentioned is silly. Post-sb vs loam use relics and then firespout and you have pretty much the same effect of perish. Vs dreadstill you have more removals than his creatures, side spout out for rebs which own counterbalance which is your only concern against dreadstill. Vs bant bring in rebs too, I hear they help vs clique and trygon and RWM as well, without need of humility. And still they kill exalted guys. Standstill owns this deck, but you don't run the best card of thearchetype, so what? The basic principle here is the same: you have more answers than their threats, keep the counters for order and that's all. And hell, if you're stupid enough not to save a stp for an upcoming Tombstalker, then you should revisit your playstile. I really don't get the point in wasting removals on non-flying creatures when elspeth keeps the ground stalled on its own. So arguments vs spout here really aren't strong, reb pretty much covers its supposed irrelevance in some MU (and it's a wrath effect, so ofc it should be more or less dead in controllish mu's, but the same is true for humility, and more true if I may say).

Marfolk/zoo/goblins have ways to recover very quicly. Yes and not. They have ways to recover quick after a 4cc wrath, or 5cc in the case of merfolk, but by that turn you could already be dead. They can't recover very fast from a 3cc wrath, plus spout dodges grip and gaddock which is HUGE! If they play slow they simply lose, becose they lose tempo. You resolve elspeth and trade 1/1, 2-3/1 with spout and EE, and they're out of the game (unless they finish you with burn spells). Mind that vs merfolk you are boarding in 3+ additional swords as well (namely: reb). Goblins have no answer to firespout as well, and firespout comes down a turn before: also, requires less specific mana and so it's far more relevant having firespout vs humility under port/waste attack. Firespout vs humility in zoo: simply >>>; you realy prefer having a weak solution on the board or actually trhow to hell all opposing creatures? Well, no doubt I prefer the 2nd, I don't give targets to grip (so +2-3 dead cards in my opponent's deck, and there's always CB) and I don't have to waste a removal or a counter on gaddock, for his little to no problem since it block only fow, which incidentally I sometimes side out (tx Citrus for the hint). Resutl: firespout >>> humility in tribal/zoo MU.

JtN for mana leak. Don't. Use paths. Counterspell are not suited for an aggro meta, removals are.

Side note: just try not to use humility. Test, and you'll see you can do well without that card, it's not necessary not even cool anymore.

[Hitman82]

Wow. If you don't get that Humility is awesome in Landstill, I don't get why you play the deck. Elspeth sucks. She's only good when something like Humility is in play. Decree sucks. It's so mana-intensive that it's more unrealistic to depend on that then Humility. Decree only becomes good when Humility is out. Manlands suck because Wasteland is everywhere and so is Swords. Humility makes your manlands better than every creature your opponent casts. Landstill is such an awkward deck, it needs to play something as overwhelming to the board state as Humility. I have literally never lost a game once Humility resolved against a creature-based deck. I'm not even exaggerating. The only problem with Humility is that it costs four. Firespout obviously gains value when Humility is out, as well.

While we're on the topic, Wrath is not better than Humility. Humility singlehandedly takes a deck with the worst win conditions in the format and makes them the best. Wrath just temporarily clears the board. If you have any idea how to play Magic, Humility pretty much does the same thing as Wrath of God while continuing to make your win conditions better. Firespout isn't even better than Wrath of God, it's just cheaper. The reason I run Firespout is because it's largely for the same decks Wrath of God is for and has excellent synergy with Humility which is better than both. Who cares about Krosan Grip or whatever removal they may bring in for it? You stopped playing sideboard cards that improved matchups, too? It's only a one-for-one trade. Who cares?

[FoolofaTook]

@ Reanimator matchup: I think Faerie Macabere is the right answer to an increase in popularity. Uncounterable, undisenchantable, unduressable, instant speed pinpoint graveyard hate sounds pretty good right now.

Yes, this. Faerie Macabre is a great graveyard hate answer in this meta. I'm playing 2x Faerie Macabre, 1x Tormod's Crypt and 1x Relic of Progenitus as my GY hate suite at the moment.

[gustha]

Wow. If you don't get that Humility is awesome in Landstill, I don't get why you play the deck.
Elspeth? Standstil? TOOOOOOONS OF REMOVALS which s why the deck is so good vs aggressive and aggrocontrol decks?!? Non just for humility, otherwise play MWC it's better.

Elspeth sucks. She's only good when something like Humility is in play. Decree sucks. It's so mana-intensive that it's more unrealistic to depend on that then Humility. Decree only becomes good when Humility is out. Manlands suck because Wasteland is everywhere and so is Swords. Humility makes your manlands better than every creature your opponent casts. Landstill is such an awkward deck, it needs to play something as overwhelming to the board state as Humility. I have literally never lost a game once Humility resolved against a creature-based deck. I'm not even exaggerating. The only problem with Humility is that it costs four. Firespout obviously gains value when Humility is out, as well. If you state that Elspeth sucks and decree is only good with humility out, then it's probably you that need to ask yourself if you got any idea of how to play landstill. The latter is capabe to make you abuse of early standstills which is your main draw engine, the former keeps the board forcing opponents to overextend and that's when your x:1 removals have a chance and a sense to work. Humility is no token-producer, no wincondition, no better board keeper than elspeth. If you're able to lose a game with Elspeth in play either you were too far behind and in any case you would've lost, or maybe you have built the deck uncorrectly, or maybe you have done some play mistakes.. You state that you never lost a game with humility out vs a creature based deck. Well man, we need to win matches, non just games.

However, I'm not stating that humility is crap. It's still a bomb, if taken in itself. I do love that card and it's not without complain I left it aside. But a card can be good on its own, and then completely unusable in the format. That's because she MUST stick on the board for it to actually do something;against faster aggros, either it comes down to late, or post sb gets gripped away (1:1 trade? say it to a progenitus on the other side of the field!); against aggocontrol decks, you should be able to win with or without humility, elspeth wins alone (if you're not able, then change deck). and so on. It's not that humility is crap, it's that the meta is too fast for it to become relevant, and that you should simply win creature-based decks without humility, because elspeth has so much synergyes with the rest of the deck that you totally neglect, and furthermore the deck is designed to have a positive aggro MU, whether you play humility or not. Also:
- delaying a problem is not resolving a problem.
- a card that does not improve the merfolk MU is sensless.

I say: try to focus on elspeth and play without humility. The sensation of "easy win" with humility may be just a sign of its redundancy. However, I find silly that anyone is actually trying to discredit Elspeth nowadays...


While we're on the topic, Wrath is not better than Humility. Humility singlehandedly takes a deck with the worst win conditions in the format and makes them the best. Wrath just temporarily clears the board. If you have any idea how to play Magic, Humility pretty much does the same thing as Wrath of God while continuing to make your win conditions better. Firespout isn't even better than Wrath of God, it's just cheaper. The reason I run Firespout is because it's largely for the same decks Wrath of God is for and has excellent synergy with Humility which is better than both. Who cares about Krosan Grip or whatever removal they may bring in for it? You stopped playing sideboard cards that improved matchups, too? It's only a one-for-one trade. Who cares?If you are just able to read, Humility and Wrath of God DON'T pretty much do the same thing. The only sensed comparison is between Humility and Elspeth, and no doubt my choice will go to Elspeth in the everfastening meta. But I don't bother if you play humility again. If you'd just take the pain to play without humility, you'll see that you lose little to no synergyes and save 2 slots. We don't need hyper-redundancy, redundancy is just fine. But please don't say bullshits like Elspeth is crap and decree is crap...

EDIT#1: Also, I don't mean to be the best landstill player of the world. This cannot be. But at least, if people better than me and you at playing landstill more or less don't play humility anymore, than you should ask yourself: "can it be the case that I am absolutely and without any doubt right ont this matter"? Not to say you're wrong, just to be less "sure".

EDIT#2: I think my side of the querelle can be expressed as such: you certainly can play humility, but if you test without, you'll discover that you don't need to play humility.

[RogueMTG]

Alright, as someone who has been playing landstill for a while now with moderate success in the current meta, (Top 8'd Jupiter Games 170+ Lotus tournament, multiple top 16s/9th places in 70-80 mans) I have to say that Humility is far and away the best card in the deck, I have not lost a game that Humility resolved. It wins games nothing else can and synergizes with every win condition in the deck. "Zomg they can Krosan Grip it!" just isn't enough reason to not play it.

Can you win games without it? Of course... Landstill is not a one trick pony. You can also win games without Standstill, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be in the deck.

Firespout blows against Natural Order decks that have become really popular around here, and as you said the deck is already designed to beat creature decks so what do you need it for? Firespout is basically pre-boarding against weenie tribal decks, and god awful against everything else.

Humillity just wins against all of the decks to beat except Merfolk (although I have beaten merfolk with Humility before) but you're probably losing to them anyway.

[i_need_the_extra_turns]

@gustha

Sorry when I have to say this, but you are completly wrong on the humility topic. Generally I agree with Hitman, but I still think Decree is a great card on its own and the perfect finisher for this deck (and I think Hitman would agree on this). There are some cases when you can cycle the Decree only for somthing like 3 and not for >8. In these cases, the Decree would still be game breaking while a Humility is in play.

Hitman wrote:
"Manlands suck because Wasteland is everywhere and so is Swords. Humility makes your manlands better than every creature your opponent casts."
For me this is a very strong argument.
Overall Humility synergizes perfectly with the deck (manlands, decree, elspeth).

"I have literally never lost a game once Humility resolved against a creature-based deck."
As I memory: I lost ONE game in 5 years playing landstill with Humility in play (vs creature based decks). This seems strong for me. And it wasnt just a win-more-card.


First gustha, you compare Humility with elspeth and wrath/firespout but we mention to play them ALL. So what cards would you play in the Humility slot, so we can compare them? I have posted my last list a few pages ago.

You wrote: "and wrath is superior to humility in any case, being able to actually solve problems and not just to stall until you (hopefully) find a solution."

This obviously wrong and I dont want to explicate this in detail but Humility says: Your opponent cant win with creatures, where Wrath says what it written on the card.

"All in all, nowadys I see it as the worst card in landstill"
Well, for me its one of the best.

You try to analyse some matchups in detail.

"Irrelevenat because redundant vs any aggrocontrol deck: we should win vs bant and the like, period."
Well aggrocontrol just scoops when humility enters play. It is relevant. All you have to do is, just resolve it.
There are aggro-control matches were you cant just trade 1 for 1 with your instant removal because
a) they play to many creatures (and firespout does nothing vs goyf, stalker, clique, war monk etc.)
b) they play balance ->shuts down your removal
c) survival
d) u could not resolve a standstill. Which is not very uncommon because you give them nearly no other targets for their spell snares.
c) they have the nice threshold-nuts-draw

So why do we have such a great aggro control matchup? Because they have only 4 Forces for our bombs like Elspeth AND Humility.
In the dreadstill matchup are you right, Explosives handle them.

Overall Humility is great in these matchups:
Aggro control (especially vs bant survival. I mean without Humility how do you want to handle survival? Sure you can counter it, but it can happen that a Survival resolves when you play against Survival and you scoop.)
Aggro loam
reanimator
gobbos
all creature based decks.....

Humility is weak against:
Merfolk
Mirror (oh yeah^^)
Combo
Burn
Enchantress (Well you are right, but they can still shut down their Arg. Enchantress)



Humility is no token-producer, no wincondition, no better board keeper than elspeth. If you're able to lose a game with Elspeth in play either you were too far behind and in any case you would've lost, or maybe you have built the deck uncorrectly, or maybe you have done some play mistakes..

I mean comparing elspeth with Humility makes no sense since we play them both and they fulfill different roles (elspeth is a win condition, Humility something rather like a Wrath) but lets ingore this for a moment:

First scenario: Opponent has a random (big) creature in game and lets say 2 creature removal in hand (which is not very uncommon as we dont play creatures)

Now you can play either Elspeth or Humility:
Elspeth: Is dead after 2 rounds but saves you several lifes.
Humility: You loose 2 life through attacker. Opponent has a major problem.

Second scenario: Opponent has 2 or more creatures in play or one flying creature.
Elspeth: dies. Saves you life.
Humility: You can stall the game like forever. Opponent has a major problem.

Third scenario: Clear board.
Elspeth: Beatdown plan.
Humility: Stalling.




However, I'm not stating that humility is crap. It's still a bomb, if taken in itself. I do love that card and it's not without complain I left it aside. But a card can be good on its own, and then completely unusable in the format.

Humility is still a bomb in the actual meta, because creature based strategies havent changed (a exception would be merfolk ). It shines also vs bant survival which is getting more popular.



That's because she MUST stick on the board for it to actually do something

Yes, right.^^



;against faster aggros, either it comes down to late,

What is faster aggro, zoo or goyf sligh or gobbos? Vs zoo and goyf sligh the burn is the problem. Vs. gobbos Humility is the best card in your deck.



or post sb gets gripped away

Oh, then you play it wrong.



It's not that humility is crap, it's that the meta is too fast for it to become relevant, and that you should simply win creature-based decks without humility, because elspeth has so much synergyes with the rest of the deck that you totally neglect, and furthermore the deck is designed to have a positive aggro MU, whether you play humility or not.

Yes the meta is getting faster, therefor you have to increase the number of instant removal in my opinion.
I dont aggree that you simply win creature based decks. Well you are well equipped but its often not that easy.
With Humility and elspeth you have a 80% or higher matchup vs for example ugw balance thresh. I guess its lower without humility, but dont know as I play Humility.



Also:
- delaying a problem is not resolving a problem.
- a card that does not improve the merfolk MU is sensless.

Sorry but delaying solves here the problem. As I mentioned I nearly always win with Humility in play, because it reduces their clock from lets say 2 turns to something like 10 turns...
Yes, Humility doesnt shine against merfolk but elspeth is also not very nice. So elspeth is sensless? This would be your conclusion? Doesnt seem very solid that the merfolk matchup is all that matters. Merfolk is just a meta game deck, that is on its own a crap deck.



I say: try to focus on elspeth and play without humility. The sensation of "easy win" with humility may be just a sign of its redundancy. However, I find silly that anyone is actually trying to discredit Elspeth nowadays...

Humility is not redundant, its game breaking.
And come on, nobody discredit elspeth. We all play her.


EDIT: Another point:
When you dont play Humility, I think there is no reason to dont play goyf.

[gustha]

I think all of your arguments simply prove my points, instead of the contrary as you think. Then klaus, citrus, geoff and the like play landstill wrongly or just don't know how to play landstill because they don't play humility? I think this is not the case, maybe they are more good at playing the deck because they can win without. ("And come on, nobody discredit elspeth. We all play her." Incidentally, dear i_need_extra_turns, Hitman stated in his post that elspeth and decree both suck without humility, statement that is completely false and denotates either a comment made just for the sake of saying something or an absent testing of the deck without humility - and I hope tertium non datur.)

However, please stop talking theory without grounds.
1. try to play without humility and then speak, at least: you would maybe reconsider humility as a merely nice-to-have. And just try to read every single line I write, not just the ones that seem useful for your points: I still consider humility as gamebreaking! The fact that it is redundant in landstil, nowadays (I played it before and I loved it and still love it, I even wrote it, so your counter-arguments here are just hot air...), this fact does not mean that the card is crap, and if you don't see the difference it's not a problem of playing magic.
2. All in all, you forgot where the discussion started: antonius proposed list! his list wants to abuse cb lock to generate virtual CA, doesn't use standstill to generate real CA, and doesn't have EE or another form of mass removal. By the time he can set up cb lock and cast humility playing around dazes, he's just too far behind. That's when the discussion started. So please would you all mind to stop making abstract theory (I really don't care what you think of humility in abstract) and contextualize the role of humility in antonius' suggested list? Thanks.

EDIT: this is to say that you have mistaken: I was not talking on theoretical grounds, in fact I have some list with humility still in, though I'm not playing it atm in the lists I bring to tournaments! I was questioning humility in antoniu's list, with MD CB, and that's not the same ground!

[Hitman82]

Gustha, let me explain a little better. When I say Elspeth sucks, it's because she costs four in a format dominated by two drops. She only makes a 1/1 token every turn and, if you're not under pressure, pumps a token. I say Decree sucks for the same reason. It's too mana intensive in relation to the rest of the field's threats. You can't compare Elspeth and Tarmagoyf threat-wise. There's no comparison. These are simply endgame finishers. All I was saying is Legacy is a creature dominated format. Why wouldn't you play a card that challenges most all the preconceived notions of the format? Not only does it weaken your opponent's plan but very much strengthens your own plan at the same time. The reason I can feel confident playing Firespout in my new list is because I play Humility. If I didn't, I wouldn't play Firespout either. If you don't play Humility, you should be playing three Wrath of Gods.

And really, we're not that weak to Merfolk unless you walk into their Dazes. Game two gets worse when they bring in Spell Pierce but you're bringing in cards too. I think a lot of Landstill players fail to beat yet another creature based deck that's slower than Zoo because they make too many mistakes.

Lastly, Gustha, I use to not play Humility. These aren't bunk theoretical grounds I'm talking about. The fact of the matter is, Humility singlehandedly makes your deck strategically superior. There's no reason not to play a card that beats the ever-living crap out of the most popular archetypes in the format. I use to play Cunning Wish too but I thought it sucked and was unnecessary, much like you think Humility is. I'm not one of those players who thinks I can make my deck have game to everything in every matchup, though. I don't think playing Cunning Wish does that anyway. I've tried a lot of things and Humility is by far the best. I wasn't trying to pick a fight with you so don't take offense at what I said. I'm not a subtle person so take that for what it's worth.

[klaus]

Just won a small local tournament (26) with this:
„UWR LS 2010“
draw/filter:
3 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
2 Jace Beleren -------------------------------------------------will be Mindsculptor, soonish, I guess.
3 Sensei’s Divining Top

stall/win cons:
2 Kitchen Finks--------------------------------------------------------------meta choice, wouldn't have gotten there without them
2 Elspeth, Knight’s Errant
1 Ajani Vengeant-------------------------------------------------MVP
1 Vedalken Shackles

creature hate:
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
2 Firespout
3 Engineered Explosives
[1 Vedalken Shackles]
[2 Kitchen Finks - oftentimes acts as pseudo-removal]

counter suite:
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell

mana base
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Tundra
1 Plateau
1 Volcanic Island
1 Mountain
2 Plains
2 Island
4 Mishra’s Factory
1 AcademyRuins

SB:
4 Relic of Progenitus
3 Counterbalance
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Dismantling Blow (I like it better than Aura of S. due to the presence of Pridemage)
2 Firespout
1 Jace Beleren (will be Mindsculptor)
---

Round 1: RBG Goblins - Firespout>Wrath
Round 2: Pro Bant - Firespout wasn't too bad here. (Hierarch, Pridemage, Arbor) - anyway, I play more than enough removal
Round 3: Glimpse Elves: - Firespout>Wrath
Round 4: Dredge - G2 Finks beatdown ftw :cool:, G3: Relics (Also: Firespout>Wrath)
Round 5: Supreme Blue - triple Planeswalkers get there. (yeah, Wrath>Firespout)

Some explanations:
Yeah, I don't play Humility/Wrath and there are several reasons for that - here are a few:
- the creature hate suite has been working just fine for me.
- I cut Wraths a while ago because most of the time it simply traded 1-1
- which is why the mana investment->profit ratio just seemed skewed.
- I run Firespout because it handles swarm aggro, zoo and the likes formidably, while decks packing goyfy guys get handled with 6 stps, 3 EEs, Elspeth and Ajani. (I'm aware of the fact that CB poses a more severe threat to this list than to the more conventional lists)
- Note: the cheap removal approach will only work with jace (and vice versa) because it requires a rather steady stream of extra-cards - while Jace needs constant protection, with Wrath being a sub-optimal solution here
- wrath/humility also simply feel a bit too slow atm
---

[gustha]

Gustha, let me explain a little better. When I say Elspeth sucks, it's because she costs four in a format dominated by two drops. She only makes a 1/1 token every turn and, if you're not under pressure, pumps a token. I say Decree sucks for the same reason. It's too mana intensive in relation to the rest of the field's threats. You can't compare Elspeth and Tarmagoyf threat-wise. There's no comparison. These are simply endgame finishers. That's not true. Elspeth and decree are primarly board keepers... the format is dominated by creatures as ever has been since magic is born (that's why control and combo deck exist, to beat the living hell out of creature-based decks), but the math in playing landstill remains the same: opponent does not overextend or he gets punished by our mass removals. elspeth keeps the board and forces opponents to overextend till they get punished by our mass removals against swarm aggro and against aggrocontrol it's basically a time walk every turn and this is even more true thanks to exalted mechanic, which punishes opponent's creatures which attack alone. So the math remains: either the opponent attacks with a bunch of creature and I can handle it with spot removals and infinite chumblockers (which, at some point, become indestructible: whooooa nice thing!) or he overextends and fall under the range of my mass removals, being advantageous because they can x:1 the opponent. When the opponent is out of gas, finishes creatures and so on, that's the time to race: elspeth turns to wincondition! This is a thing humility can't do. And I say you can keep the board without humility too. Though, ofc, humility + elspeth = game over!

Lastly, Gustha, I use to not play Humility. These aren't bunk theoretical grounds I'm talking about. The fact of the matter is, Humility singlehandedly makes your deck strategically superior. There's no reason not to play a card that beats the ever-living crap out of the most popular archetypes in the format.Again, I don't doubt that this is true! I can subscribe this sentence all my life. But the fact is, THERE ARE reasons not to play a card that beats etc. etc. Being slow in the current meta is one of them. Being absolutely no more relevant than Elspeth (if you look at her the right way and play her correctly: she does not need to depend on humility to be BROKEN!) in the 98% of the cases it's another one, and so on. From my point of view, in a time when landstill can't cover the whole field as once, I must be more selective on cards I really need in order to win, and Humility is not one of those. Though absolutely gamebreaking, she's not able to win the game by itself (you still need wincondition!), and this lack of versatility is enough to keep her out of my current lists. You see, there really are reasons, which I consider relevant, not to play humility.

I wasn't trying to pick a fight with you so don't take offense at what I said.I wasn't either, so forgive me if it sounded so. However, the starting point of the discussion was: is humility good in the list Antonius proposed? I suggested that wrath would have done better, because by the time he can set up the cb lock he might be too far behind or humility to be effective...

@klaus: nice! I was considering KF in the main too, I tested jace 2.0 and found it quite good, but needed a cc3 card for counterbalance maindeck (especially for the rock MU). KF seems like the perfect choice. Not sure on the shackles, but with KF in the 3rd firespout is not strictly needed. How does it work jace 2.0 for you? Which ability do you use more often?

[i_need_the_extra_turns]

@ gustha
To summarize your points:
1. Although Humility beats, we dont need it. Elspeth does the job on its own.
2. Humility is no win-condition.

And to respond to your starting point: "Is humility good in the list Antonius proposed?"
I think you can be right that wrath would be the better choice but I also think - and let me say this as gently as i can - Antonius list (the older one) is not a optimal list. I see many landstill list on the internet (especially on other forums) which I think are not a good choice or outdated. And I dont want to discuss this on detail because the arguments have already been said several times. So it comes for me to the following question:
Should we play Humility? Referring to one of the following lists:

Hitman:
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
2 Firespout
2 Humilty
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Decree of Justice
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

3 Island
3 Plains
3 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
4 Flooded Strand
1 Arid Mesa
1 Scalding Tarn
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins

My list
UWr
23 Lands

4x FoW
3x Counterspell
3x Spell snare

4x Standstill
4x Brainstorm
2x SDT

4x Swords
2x Path to exile
3x explosives
2x Firespout

2x Elspeth
2x Humility
2x Decree


I think yes, we should play this.

Second Part follows.


EDIT: Second Part

Referring to your arguments, gustha.

Ad 2: -
-We play the same finisher, which are normally 2 Elspeth 2 Decree and Manlands. (Someone play 3 decree or ajani etc, but these are the major finisher)
- Humility doesnt need to be a win condition because we already play the same win conditions and when we resolve humility we win. So this isnt an argument for me.

Ad 1:
Well, I really like Elspeth and I think she perfectly fits in the deck, but there are matchups where we need Humility. For example DTB Bant survival. Elspeth sucks against a resolved survival.
And gustha your plan looks nice to force an overextend from the opponent and then wipe the board. But Firespout doesnt kill goyf or flyers. Lets say your Opponent has a board of 2 Tarmos or a board of 1 Tarmo and a rhox war monk. Here you will miss wrath.

The questions should be: Are there better cards for the Humility slot in Landstill?
I havnt found them. The card that comes this very close would be Fact or Fiction for me.


@Klaus and gustha

You say Humility is too clunky or too slow in the current meta. Klaus list looks like ultimate walker with standstill instead of ancestral vision (which is crap compared to standstill as we all know) and is even more clunky that the lists I have posted. He plays three cc4 cards in addition to elspeth. This would be too slow for me. Jace 1.0 was always very bad in Landstill and when I compare Jace 2.0 with Humility, no question what would I pick.

[GoldenCid]

Wtih increment of combo fame...isn't this list too anti - cretures?? Swords + Path + EE + Firespout + Humility = wowowoowow.



For example DTB Bant survival. Elspeth sucks against a resolved survival.
.

Why exactly??

[Hitman82]

Landstill is traditionally bad against combo game one. Unless you played cheaper countermagic or Counterbalance, your matchup isn't going to noticabely improve. Because the majority of decks in Legacy are creature-centric, we opt to prepare for them in the mainboard and address dredge and combo out of the board. If you expect a lot of combo, don't play Landstill because you'll be sacrificing the majority of your matchups to address a fair number of combo decks.

Elspeth sucks against Bant Survival, specifically, because they name white when they get an Iona into play and you can't race their 7/7 with your (at best) 4/4.

[Mark Sun]

So, with how this quarter at school is working out, I've decided to play at the SCG 5K in Indianapolis tomorrow. Unfortunately, I haven't tested or played a whole lot since the last Meandeck Open (a good 3 weeks), so I will not only be rusty, but my list will (have to) be the same. I couldn't borrow Jace 2.0 in time, so I will be running with FoF and hoping for the best. I'm not worried about Zoo, I'm not worried about ANT (matchup is like 33/67 anyways, find a Counterbalance and pray). I am worried about Reanimator/Merfolk.

My performance at the Meandeck versus Merfolk was absolutely horrid, and while I can throw a little bit of the blame at g2 with not drawing any hate, that doesn't excuse my poor boarding plan. List for reference:


// Lands
4 [R] Tundra
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
3 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [U] Volcanic Island
2 [MR] Plains (1)
2 [7E] Island (2)
1 [P2] Mountain (3)
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
1 [LG] Karakas

// Spells
3 [CST] Brainstorm
2 [SHM] Firespout
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 [ALA] Ajani Vengeant
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [FNM] Fact or Fiction
3 [OD] Standstill
2 [TE] Humility
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
1 [CFX] Path to Exile
3 [REW] Lightning Helix

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 2 [FNM] Aura of Silence
SB: 4 [CS] Counterbalance
SB: 2 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [U] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [IA] Pyroblast


How would you guys board against Merfolk? Reanimator? I have both plans drawn up, but I may not be using the correct method of thinking in either matchup. And for the record, changes I was going to implement if I could in time:

MD:
-2 FoF
-1 Dust Bowl
-1 Tolaria West
-1 Karakas

+2 Jace 2.0
+3 Wasteland


SB:
-1 Firespout
-2 Aura of Silence

+1 Wrath of God (I might still do this anyways)
+2 Dismantling Blow



Any feedback would be appreciated. I still think that Humility is useful at the moment, especially versus NO-Pro, Reanimator if you can stick it (one list at the last 5K ran zero bounce spells in the main), Zoo (although demonstrated by many including myself it is not needed g2 & g3). I will take my chances and have 2 in the main against for this one. It also helps freak pairings against random-dudes.dec, etc. Regarding the discussion, I'm sure that once my exams are over I could join in on it, Luca makes an excellent point in stating that Humility is dead in the versatility department. There are certain matchups that I regret having it, but it's difficult to cover every one of your matchups well.

One of my goals when I have the free time is to find a Humility-less list that I'm comfortable with. Still 4cc, still slow, and still not a win condition. I'll never, ever, play this list without Elspeth, btw.

[Felidae]

I guess I'd board the 3 REB's and the 3rd Firespout against Merfolk, cutting 1-3 Standstills and 1-3 Forces (not sure about the correct number).
Against Reanimator I'd board the Relics/Faeries 4 CB's and 2 REB's, cutting the Explosives,Lightning Helix,Firespout,1 Path, 1 Ajani,1 StP.

Just my oppinion of course, good luck at the SCG 5K.

Edit.:

I'm not sure if this idea is great, stupid or just not worked out yet, but what do you guys think about this decklist?

Mana (23)
3x Tundra
3x Volcanic Island
2x Island
1x Plains
4x Flooded Strand
2x Saclding Tarn
4x Mishras Factory
3x Wasteland
1x Academy Ruins

Removal (8)
4x StP
2x Explosiv
2x Firespout

Draw (10)
4x Standstill
3x Brainstorm
3x Top

Wincondition (6)
2x Elspeth
2x Decree
2x Dreadnought

Disruption (14)
4x FoW
3x Spell Snare
3x Spell Pierce
4x Stifle

SB:
4x Counterbalance
3x REB
2x Relic
2x Crypt
2x Firespout
2x Path

The basic idea should be self explained. I'm not quite sure about certain things:
-8 removal spells might be to low to handle aggro
-Spell Pierce, Counterspell or even Counterbalance ? or maybe +1 Spell Snare and +2 Maindeck removal?
-is Dreadnought a possible way to add another wincondition to the early/mid/late game?

I'm looking forward to you guys :D.

[Mark Sun]

Well, epic fail from me today...

I installed the changes that I mentioned in my previous post. Started an abysmal 1-3 and knowing I was out of contention for T16 I sucked it up and finished 5-3 on the day before leaving for home after Round 8. A breakdown for anyone who is interested (obviously not tournament report worthy):

R1: NO-Pro. This round played out wonderfully for me, with a correct initial read of what I thought was Bant with Natural Order. He never had enough mana to stick a guy for NO, and I locked things up with Elspeth/Jace, prompting two concessions when Jace was @ 12 & 11 loyalty, respectively. A solid win to start the day. (2-0 games, 1-0 matches)

R2: BitterStandstill. This is against my buddy Will from home, which was sort of a freak pairing (what are the odds?). Unfortunately for me, shit hit the fan here. He chains all four of his Standstills game 1, and I couldn't keep up. Game 2 he boards in 3 Extirpate, hitting Force & Factory, and the mana issues didn't end there, and I wasn't able to get WW for Elspeth until much too late, Tombstalker hits the board and as I spin Top frantically for an StP, I hit Land, Land, SDT, Spell Snare, Land. Fml. (2-2 games, 1-1 matches)

R3: Bant Aggro with Elspeth. Still mana screwed. Not sure what was wrong with this list today, but pile shuffling and regular shuffling did nothing. I open the game with fetchland, Island, Top. Go Tundra --> Top, and fail to find a red source despite holding Firespout, Helix, Helix. Awkward loss. Game 2 is much of the same, until I get Elspeth out, and it looks like I can finally stabilize... until he plays his own, wiping out mine, and then finding another one. Flying Qasali Pridemage get there. (2-4 games, 1-2 matches)

R4: ANT. I'm fairly disgusted at this point, as I know that I can only make T16 with a shot in hell if I win out. So, I sit down across from my opponent and he goes Misty --> Underground Sea. I didn't even need to wait for the play. Duress, take Force, g2. Board in Counterbalance, take a risky hand with Tundra, Plains, but 2 FoW, 2 Spell Snare, but Elspeth, and didn't hit the third land until much too late. He decided to slow roll me. Worst. Feeling. Ever. (2-6 games, 1-3 matches)


So really, I almost decided to drop here, but one of my friends is 3-1 at this point, and I said fuck it and stayed in (not getting a ride home any time soon). I check my deck really quickly to make sure I even had Volcanic Islands. :rolleyes:

R5: TES. What are the odds? I didn't think I'd see one at this point, I mull to 6 and open with Plains, Mountain, StP, Helix, Firespout, Top. He plays Duress on his turn and takes Firespout. I spin SDT at the upkeep, see something like Explosives, X, X, he EtW's for 12 on his turn. I blow EE, and he doesn't recover. G2 I StP his first turn Xantid Swarm, and he doesn't draw another Land. By the time it's relevant, Factory has him beat pretty low and I have CB/Top in play. (4-6 games, 2-3 matches)

R6: Dredge. Dredge does what Dredge does g1. g2 I bring Macabres, Relics, and REB. Basically played "defend the Relic" for g2, as he decided to slow roll, but Relic into another Relic is pretty good against Dredge I hear, and we are off to g3. He decides to slow roll again and chooses to draw. I open with 2 Faerie Macabre. Jace actually joins the party for this one, and I get a rare moment where I pull off the ultimate against him. (6-7 games, 3-3 matches)

R7: Zoo. Finally. Matchup that I have been praying for... seems to be like clockwork. Firespout takes care of his early Wild Nacatl and Loam Lion, StP for bigger dudes. He eventually burns me down pretty low, but I find a Top, and Helix, Helix, Ajani (he eats it), but find Elspeth and start attacking for 4 each turn. I find Jace with Top, and start to Fateseal. He draws about 3-4 lands as Soldier Token gets there. g2 is similar, I land an early CB/Top and he seems to have not drawn any of his Krosan Grips. He has a hand full of 1-2 drops when he starts throwing things into Counterbalance. I hit almost everything except for Qasali... which eats an StP (no mana open to kill CB!). Elspeth and the lone Jace (boarded out copy #2) hold hands and skip to victory as he hits another long string of lands and 1cc cards for the rest of the game. (8-7 games, 4-3 matches)

R8: Zoo. Whee. This one was the dark variant, and ran Thoctar instead of KotR. Obviously, Thoctar is a little more resilient to Firespout, which made for an awkward g1 when I had in mind my usual plan of StP Goyf/bigger dude & Firespout little ones. I only get 1 StP effect in this matchup, and unfortunately it doesn't do anything, as he plays 2 more Thoctars. Really wish I had a Decree to stall, tbh. Anyhow, g2 and g3 I actually have access to a single WoG while I do an alternate boarding plan of -4 FoW, -2 Humility, -1 Jace 2.0 for +4 CB, +2 Dismantling Blow, +1 WoG (Relic doesn't seem to do anything here, and having an answer to Choke that can't be Needle'd is pretty good. I don't know the Dark Zoo list very well). WoG does its job here, helping wipe out the big guys like Thoctars/Goyfs while I am able to StP --> next turn Standstill both games, and each one ends with Elspeth on the table with ~10 loyalty and a 4/4 flying Soldier Token swinging every turn. g3 I do not draw CB/Top at all in this game, just Brainstorm & fetches, but I manage to get the trifecta of Planeswalkers into play, and to end the night, I do Jace's ultimate one last time... he put 4 cards in his library, Land, Krosan Grip, Krosan Grip, Krosan Grip. Rough.


So I end the night 10-8 games, 5-3 matches. It is obviously not my brightest moment. (EDIT: 56th out of 264 participants. Shudder.)


Comments: Humility did nothing, but it was probably because I didn't run into a matchup where it was relevant (Reanimator, Survival, etc). I'm really thinking about taking these out for a support spell like +2 Spell Pierce (would have been nice to have today). I also loved Jace 2.0, he is indeed insane, but since this is my first tournament with him, I can't tell if he is win-more/makes me careless and apply less pressure/whatever. Still need to test more. Because I'm poor as hell and can't afford my own Jace 2.0's (borrowed for the tournament), in the future I might still have to go with Fact or Fiction. All right, that's about it. Final tomorrow, so obviously things can be discussed a little later :tongue:

[Tinefol]

Actually Humility does nothing against Reanimator. It can't be reasonably cast before they get Iona out and what are the odds of SnTelling it? They board in their bounce anyway. It also is unnecessary against Survival, where you are so upperhand, that its like overkill.

Where it really shines is Goblins match up, but I guess goblins are rarely played now. Good against Bant, but I'd just prefer WoG here. Also your only reasonable chance of winning Dredge game1, if you manage to slow them down (doesn't work, usually). Overall, I'd just run more WoGs.

[GoldenCid]

After some time of WWk launch...has anybody been interested or even tested celestial colonnade??

And considering iona and reanimator...propaganda??

[Arsenal]

Because I'm poor as hell and can't afford my own Jace 2.0's (borrowed for the tournament), in the future I might still have to go with Fact or Fiction.

Cost considerations aside, it seems like Jace 2.0 > Fact or Fiction. You trade in the raw power of FoF in order to have more utility and a win condition rolled into one card. Thoughts on Jace 2.0 vs. Fact or Fiction in Landstill shells?

[Mark Sun]

Actually Humility does nothing against Reanimator. It can't be reasonably cast before they get Iona out and what are the odds of SnTelling it? They board in their bounce anyway. It also is unnecessary against Survival, where you are so upperhand, that its like overkill.

Where it really shines is Goblins match up, but I guess goblins are rarely played now. Good against Bant, but I'd just prefer WoG here. Also your only reasonable chance of winning Dredge game1, if you manage to slow them down (doesn't work, usually). Overall, I'd just run more WoGs.

I would agree with you about Goblins, but playing in Ohio, you're bound to run into the Jonathan Benson Mono-R build somewhere (including the Meandeck Opens I generally play in). That list just T2'ed the Indy 5K. I do like WoG better for everything else, though. Against Reanimator the match is ugly enough anyways, but not a whole lot (besides Faerie Macabre, but of course you mentioned SnT) works against them. Until I find something else that can keep me alive against them, I don't know what to do. I do agree with you that it may be an answer that comes to late. After this tournament, without Karakas in the mana base I didn't feel too wonderful. Would have liked to have had an additional out than only Jace.



After some time of WWk launch...has anybody been interested or even tested celestial colonnade??

And considering iona and reanimator...propaganda??

I didn't like Colonnade when it was first spoiled and I still can't get behind it. CiPT, takes 3UW to activate (but vigilance), seems like it's a huge investment for every turn you use it. To me it's the same deal as Tolaria West. Seems great in the mid-late game as a topdeck, pretty terrible if it's in your opening hand in a light-land situation.



Cost considerations aside, it seems like Jace 2.0 > Fact or Fiction. You trade in the raw power of FoF in order to have more utility and a win condition rolled into one card. Thoughts on Jace 2.0 vs. Fact or Fiction in Landstill shells?

He was damn powerful. I need to test him more, since like I said I can't decide if he is win-more or not. He did seal up (literally) some games quickly, and allows you to sandbag cards in your hand as you apply Elspeth beats, for example.


I suppose I'll post some of my general comments/thoughts, as between my exam prep (2 and a final report in the past two days), I've had time to brainstorm (pun intended) a little bit more.


- Previous to the whole Reanimator debacle I stated on here that I believed that UWr Landstill was the best splash for Landstill. That's because I cited the decks to beat, and most frequently occurring, as Zoo, Merfolk, CounterTop, and ANT. Right now, we're looking at Reanimator becoming more popular and making noise, as well as Lands.dec pushing the same popularity. Aggro Loam, by the way, has always been a difficult matchup for me. So, per this information, the value in-game of Extirpate, in my opinion, has increased somewhat. Black gives access to Edict, Innocent Blood, whatever we need to get around Iona. I looked up the answers in RU... it's ugly.

- Even with 24 non-CiPT Lands and 3 SDT/3 BS, I found myself with mana issues at the 5K. It could be just horrible luck, but I also had a moment to reflect on the curve overall. There are 7 4cc cards in the MD. Granted that ~2-3+ are sided out depending on the matchup in general, I'm not completely worried about it, but I feel like the MD needs to have a better curve. That said, when I had 1-2 bombs on the table, things got pretty bad for the opponent, and thus I believe this deck can still keep its punishing late-game characteristic.

- Before the 5K, when I thought I couldn't get Jace, I considered some of the following changes, which may or may not agree with everyone here. First off: -2 Humility, +2 Spell Pierce. I agonized over finding something to replace Humility in this list, cutting the total 4cc bomb list down to five. A 1cc piece of countermagic seemed like the perfect fit here, basically serving as another piece of a counter-war, and stopping an early play that Spell Snare (or something you don't want to waste FoW on) couldn't. Another SB tech that I thought about was Envelope (U, counter target Sorcery), which seems to have a lot of applications in the metagame right now.

- I also considered, due to the nature of speeding the deck up a little, at the time -2 FoF +2 Impulse. My teammate Media314r8 on here and I had a chat regarding the usefulness of FoF versus someone with experience creating the piles, and I agreed with him that often times you're getting 1-2 cards max from it if they do it correctly. Knowing that my personal goal is to play amongst the best crowd that I possibly can, this seems to be a likely scenario I would run into. Impulse allows you to dig 4 deep, but doesn't help when you want 2 of the cards you see. However, it does allow you to dig for a specific answer a lot better, and in junction with SDT, etc, you have an ability to clear the top 3, get a fresh 3, giving you 7-deep access to your library. It's somewhat of a weird idea.


Anyhow, open to thoughts on all of this, of course. Let me know how you guys feel about it.

[Tinefol]

Personally, before I start running useless lategame stuff like Spell Pierce, I'd run maindeck gravehate: Relics. They always at least cantrip, hose a ton of decks and can be cast off any land. And probably fits into metagame.

I've stopped playing the deck a month ago though. Last tournament in my area featured 4 Reanimator decks and 4 Ichorid decks. Not a good field for Landstill. The last tournament I played with the deck, I've run the Black splash, because of extirpate and plague (and guess what, plague did nothing against merfolk I lost to).

As for tools to fight Iona maindeck in UWr, I think its possible without switching the splash. You have to run Tolaria West+Karakas, you have to run 2 Jace 2.0, and you have to run ~3 Cunning Wishes for Bounce. I also think, that Wish is a way to go for UWr versions. I've tried testing UWb with black removal maindeck - and it sucked. Deck becomes so unstable against Wasteland, I'd advise against it.

As for lands problems, its there. I've cut my colorless sources to 4 (Mishra's), also I'd probably run PTE and EE4 instead of Helixes due to mana problems. Makes deck a little more stable.

[GoldenCid]

and you have to run ~3 Cunning Wishes for Bounce. I also think, that Wish is a way to go for UWr versions. I've tried testing UWb with black removal maindeck - and it sucked.


Wish is a good option for iona. Go for doom blade and that's it or wipe away if don't run black.

Here's my list:

// Lands
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [R] Tundra
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
2 [TE] Wasteland
2 [RAV] Island (1)
3 [CS] Snow-Covered Plains
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ZEN] Swamp (4)
1 [R] Underground Sea

// Spells
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 [OD] Standstill
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [6E] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [TE] Humility
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
2 [6E] Wrath of God
1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
2 [SOK] Sensei's divining top
1 [SC] Decree of Justice
3 [JU] Cunning wish

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [FNM] Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Doom blade / Slaughter pact
SB: 3 [ARB] Meddling Mage
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 Echoing thruth
SB: 1 Return to dust
SB: 1 Path to exile (Really necesary??)
SB: 1 Pulse of the fields


EDIT: My bad! I just realize taht i posted the wrong list without wish!!
DB / SP will f*** Iona if they name white. Echoing thruth likes me against dredge (Ravenous trap does too) and belcher and TES. I'm not really sure if meddling mage is really necesary in 3x in this configuration together with extirpate. I was thinking on pithing needle to stop dangerous artifacts (vial, jitte, belcher and so on) on run 2 Counterbalance to replace its places against combo. Off course if i run balance i must add 1 additional top to my list...should i??

[Hitman82]

- I also considered, due to the nature of speeding the deck up a little, at the time -2 FoF +2 Impulse. My teammate Media314r8 on here and I had a chat regarding the usefulness of FoF versus someone with experience creating the piles, and I agreed with him that often times you're getting 1-2 cards max from it if they do it correctly. Knowing that my personal goal is to play amongst the best crowd that I possibly can, this seems to be a likely scenario I would run into. Impulse allows you to dig 4 deep, but doesn't help when you want 2 of the cards you see. However, it does allow you to dig for a specific answer a lot better, and in junction with SDT, etc, you have an ability to clear the top 3, get a fresh 3, giving you 7-deep access to your library. It's somewhat of a weird idea.

Fact or Fiction is your endgame card. It doesn't matter if you only get two cards from it because it's the two cards you want/need. It digs five deep and punishes ignorance. It almost always gets what you need and if it doesn't, it cleared the way for your Brainstorm to find what you need.

Rergarding the number of four-drops, it doesn't necessarily matter if you have six-seven if you have enough ways to interact in the early turns where you're not in control. To me, the reason to play Landstill is the four-drops Fact or Fiction and Humility.


I've stopped playing the deck a month ago though. Last tournament in my area featured 4 Reanimator decks and 4 Ichorid decks. Not a good field for Landstill. The last tournament I played with the deck, I've run the Black splash, because of extirpate and plague (and guess what, plague did nothing against merfolk I lost to).

Too true. Landstill seems particularly bad right now with combo and reanimator in larger numbers. The problem with Landstill is that it's a fair deck in an unfair format. The more fair the format becomes, the better Landstill becomes. When people are sending hordes of zombies at you on the third or fourth turn or you're getting stormed out on the second turn or you can't play white spells anymore somewhere in between the second and fourth turn, Landstill is just outclassed. When people attack with creatures, Landstill's more than strong enough.

[rsaunder]

Just split 1/2 in a small tournament with a redic. competitive meta. Pretty much fully powered decks and I thought I'd give my $.02 on the matchups I faced.

Round one: Cynthia with Merfolk

She starts slow without a vial, and I make a manabase. I counter a standstill, rip 2 factories and drop one of my own. 7 STP effects wins this matchup preboard. Factory beats go the distance with some help from Ajani.

Game two goes slow. She keeps shooting down my factories and I dont get an elspeth for forever. REB keeps things in check and I was holing a firespout as insurance the whole time. They cant hit your duals for fear of factories, which is nifty. I hit Ajani's ultimate twice and won with Jace M.'s ultimate.

Round 2: Kyle with Bant Survival

I don't remember what exactly got me game one, I think it was like 3 goyfs after he resolved a survival and I'd kept Iona out of play. UGLY.

Game two I counter lots of survivals but he eventually sticks one. I EE it before much harm can be done and an elspeth goes the distance with Ajani killing all his threats and doing the last 3 damage.

Game three took forever. He opened three survivals and I countered two, then on turn 4 he gets an iona naming white. I mised my one Jace to bounce it and stalled out with ajani and Jace M. stalling the board. I made the play error of tapping out to hard force (no other way to cast it) a force of will on my EE@2, when he had pridemage in play. I had been beating him with factories and soldiers the whole time, and he'd kept me off of ultimates. I end up doing the last 6 damage through an army of creatures with a mutavault given wings by elspeth and +1/+1 from a factory. Mutavault being a factory worker absolutely won me this game and thus this match.

Round 3: GBR slivers with another Kyle

Game one and two were similar, this was one of the weaker decks there and he had admittedly lucksacked into my bracket. 7 STP effects and planeswalkers go the distance both games, with Ajani and Els being MVP's.

Round 4 (Finals round 1) : Ben with 43land.dec

Ugh.

Game one he does his thing, keeping me tapped down with 3 ports.

Game two I build up a manabase despite 3 more ports (!) and get 2 loams with a macabre. I resolve a meddling mage on loam soon after and he goes to great lengths (intuition=>tolaria west=>barbarian ring) to kill it. I get an elspeth and a Jace. M on the board and start building jace counters and keeping him off business while countering his tutors and eventually hit another MM. I stupidly let him get academy ruins and he almost gets me in a slaverlock, but I beat him out with indestructable elspeth tokens and factories getting through his factories and 3 maze of iths.

Game 3 I counter some loams and drop an early mage on loam, all the while countering tutors. I hardcast DoJ for one, which he soon found a maze for, but it did some damage. I again manage to get a mutavault pumped by factories to go the distance against his factories.

Split (small) prizes with Eric who probably would have rolled me with MBaggro control.

-Meddling mage wins your tough matchups, save ichorid
-Faerie Macabre was lovely
-You don't really need sweepers main (I probably didn't need 5 in the board)
-Ajani IS that good
-Jace is totally relevant and very good.
-I never resolved a relevant humility

4 STP
3 EE
3 P2E
1 Ajani
2 Humility

4 Bstorm
2 SDT
4 Standstill
1 Jace M.

4 FOW
3 Sp. S
3 SC

2 Els
1 DoJ (<=good call)

4 Factory
1 Mutavault
4 Strand
1 Mesa
1 S. tarn
4 Tundra
1 Plateau
1 Volc
3 Island
3 Plains

SB:
3 Firespout (<= meh)
2 WoG (<= great, oddly)
2 REB (<= mad good)
2 MM (<= MVP)
4 Macabre
2 Negate (<= mad good)

I wouldn't change the MB. The SB, if I could do it again now I'd go -1 firespout, +1 MM. I'd like to find room for one more even, but I'm not sure what to cut or if 4 is needed.

Cheers!

[melie]

@ rsaunder;


I never resolved a relevant humility

I wouldn't change the MB.

Why wouldn't you change the Humilities maindeck with WoG's? I also like Humility, just wanted to know your opinion.

I'm running this list atm with pretty good succes;

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Island
3 Plains
1 Scrubland
1 Underground Sea
4 Mishra's Factory

3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Engineered Explosives

1 Vindicate

3 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
3 Brainstorm
1 Jace, the Mindsculptor

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Path to Exile
2 Humility
3 Elspeth, Knight Errant

SB
4 Counterbalance
3 Meddling Mage
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Extirpate
2 Relic of Progenitus

Idea is to play anti creature maindeck and have a very combo/graveyard orientated sideboard. Against most combo decks you can board in almost your entire board. Even kitchen Finks are better than most cards in your maindeck cause of the beatdown aspect they bring alongside the Meddling Mages.
Things I'm not sure about;
- 3 Elspeth (best card in the deck. Period), maybe 1 DoJ is better but I personally find this card uber uber slow in the current meta. Or maybe Jace nr2?
- 4 Standstill. Maybe 1 of them can be Jace nr2, Brainstorm nr 4 (probably not with 3 SdT's) or Counterspell / Spell Snare nr 4.

Any idea's?

[rsaunder]

@ rsaunder;

Why wouldn't you change the Humilities maindeck with WoG's? I also like Humility, just wanted to know your opinion.

They're so strong on paper now, really, and only good game one. I really want something in the MB to drop early on that'll protect me from Iona and Progenitus for the rest of the game, since I don't have any good way to remove it. I'm not sure how overrated that is, and I definitely need to test it more and I would really like a better answer, but for the time being this is looking solid.

Does anyone have like a list of cards made that can deal with Iona on white, Inkwell, or progenitus? There has to be a good non-white catch all out there.

[melie]

Does anyone have like a list of cards made that can deal with Iona on white, Inkwell, or progenitus? There has to be a good non-white catch all out there.

After testing I found Guilded Drake is mvp. After that you have Nevinyrral’s Disk (to slow) and the random black sac spells (have to get black on the first 2 turns or they don't do anything. Also not that great against Progenitus if they stick another guy).


EDIT:: I know realise it targets.. Fail by me. Tested it with sharpie on land proxie and actually thought it didn't target..

[FredMaster]

When Gilded Drake enters the battlefield, exchange control of Gilded Drake and up to one target creature an opponent controls.

So yeah it's not only "not that great" against Progenitus. It does nothing. Same goes for Inkwell and other Shroud-dudes.

[rsaunder]

Drake doesn't hit Inkwell or Prog because it's targeted. Or am I mistaken?

Even if you get Iona with it, you're still largely shut off and they can combat it better than you can, so drake seems weak.

EDIT: Guess who beat me to it...

[melie]

When Gilded Drake enters the battlefield, exchange control of Gilded Drake and up to one target creature an opponent controls.

So yeah it's not only "not that great" against Progenitus. It does nothing. Same goes for Inkwell and other Shroud-dudes.

Wow.. Epic fail on my part.. That's the problem with thinking you know what a card does + sharpie on land proxies..

Juxtapose on the other hand doesn't target but costs 4 so probably to slow.
I think black sac removal is still the way to go. Only problem is the commitment to black in the early turns + that it sends them to the graveyard, ready to be recurred once again. Maybe Ensnaring Bridge for stalling? It doesn't stop Iona's effect but might give you time to set up your mana base for your black sac removal / Jace 2.0 / Nev's Disk.
Also Porphyry Nodes is pretty good against anything not "Iona naming white" (same goes for Tariff, but much more narrow). The Nodes are not to bad against many other decks either, it only is incredibly un synergistic with Elspeth/DoJ...

But actually I'm not that afraid of Progenitus. The Natural Order doesn't come in the first few turns of the game and after that you'll be able to either counter it or stick a WoG/Humility (a 1/1 Progenitus is THE ultimate Humility imho :)) Against reanimator normal graveyard hate seems pretty good. The Show and Tell back up plan has the same weaknesses as Natural Order against us so a good anti graveyard SB should get you a long way I think. Also Karakas stays very techie.

[HPB_Eggo]

I've been toying around a lot with Landstill the past two weeks, and I think this list is very strong in the current meta.

UWr Landstill
4 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Tundra
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Plains
2 Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
1 Academy Ruins
1 Tolaria West

4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Standstill
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Force of Will
4 Spell Pierce

3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Path to Exile
1 Ajani Vengeant

3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Humility
1 Engineered Explosives

SB:
4 Lightning Helix
3 Counterbalance
3 Meddling Mage
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Aura of Silence


----

One reason I like this list is that it replaces Elspeth with Thopter Foundry and Sword of the Meek. Elspeth is a great card. However, I think Thopter Foundry is better, even with the drawback of requiring a second card to work properly. Elspeth will not come down and win you the game against Zoo when you are at three life halfway through the game. Thopter Foundry will. Elspeth can't race Progenitus. Thopter Foundry can. Elspeth can't be recurred if you're forced to discard it. Thopter Foundry can be.

There's a lot of other places where it's better, but I think, at the very least, you should all test it.

Most importantly, though, it can be fetched with Enlightened Tutor. Tutor also makes the deck a lot more consistent. Running six Standstill is good, as you can punish people for not putting a threat on the table turn one or two many more games than you could otherwise. If they're playing out threats, it turns into a win condition, removal, or board control. Either way, you're okay with seeing it.

Running six Swords is really good, especially when you can grab Standstill as consistently as this deck will. The four lightning Helixes are also really good. With ten pieces of spot removal, there is no need to play any sweepers, as sweepers themselves are only good against a few decks as is.

Only running FoW and Spell Pierce has worked very well for me. With six swords and the eventual lifegain from Foundry, you shouldn't have to worry about countering many, if any, creatures. Yes, Spell Pierce can be terrible in the late-game, but we already win the late-game, so I don't see where that matters. Also, Ajani can make Spell Pierce relevant in the mid- and late-game, as well, although that doesn't happen often enough to be very relevant.

In short, find some time to test Enlightened Tutor and Thopter Foundry/Sword of the Meek in place of Elspeth and a few other cards. It works or, at least, it has worked for me.

[melie]

I've been tinkering around with Thop Foundry for a while also but found it a bit to gimmicky. The reasons you give to play it don't bother me that much. Against Zoo Finks and a crap load of removal seems to be enough for me and Progenitus doesn't bother me all that much to be honest. Not saying I totally don't like it but I'm just not that big a fan (anymore) of a tutor list. The problem arises when they destroy/counter the bullet you fetch. This sets you back so much in time and card disadvantage it's not pretty. I see your list can recur with the Ruins but this is also very very time consuming.
Also, why play Crucible and no wasteland? If I would play this list I would take out 1 Cruc and 1 Shackles for 2 extre EE. Also 17 blue count is a little on the low side fo rmy taste.

[klaus]

I've been tinkering around with Thop Foundry for a while also but found it a bit to gimmicky. The reasons you give to play it don't bother me that much. Against Zoo Finks and a crap load of removal seems to be enough for me and Progenitus doesn't bother me all that much to be honest. Not saying I totally don't like it but I'm just not that big a fan (anymore) of a tutor list. The problem arises when they destroy/counter the bullet you fetch. This sets you back so much in time and card disadvantage it's not pretty. I see your list can recur with the Ruins but this is also very very time consuming.
Also, why play Crucible and no wasteland? If I would play this list I would take out 1 Cruc and 1 Shackles for 2 extre EE. Also 17 blue count is a little on the low side fo rmy taste.
+1

I really like me some 6 STPs myself, but make sure you go 4 STP/2PtE.
I'd probably also go:
-1 Humility, -1 Foundry, -1 ET
+2 Firespout +1 EE

[HPB_Eggo]

I've been tinkering around with Thop Foundry for a while also but found it a bit to gimmicky. The reasons you give to play it don't bother me that much. Against Zoo Finks and a crap load of removal seems to be enough for me and Progenitus doesn't bother me all that much to be honest. Not saying I totally don't like it but I'm just not that big a fan (anymore) of a tutor list.

If you are running tutors, it is better than Elspeth. I'm not going to assert anything more than that. It's hardly something everyone should run out and include in their decks, but it is worth testing.


Also, why play Crucible and no wasteland?

Crucible, Humility, Tolaria West, and Shackles are flex slots. They keep getting switched in and out for a lot of different things.


Also 17 blue count is a little on the low side for my taste.

The blue count is 19, as Foundry is blue. I'd like it to be twenty, and during some rotations of the flex slot, it is, but 19 does work.


I really like me some 6 STPs myself, but make sure you go 4 STP/2PtE.

I can see where you're coming from, but I have a tendency to get screwed by Meddling Mage. Mostly the meta I play in.


I'd probably also go:
-1 Humility, -1 Foundry, -1 ET
+2 Firespout +1 EE

Humility is good. It's not ridiculously broken or anything, but it is good. Of the four cards currently in the flex slots, it is the one I'd be least likely to cut.

I've never liked Firespout, but I could certainly see dropping something for a second EE.

[rsaunder]

Humility lets a deck that otherwise plays a fair game in an unfair format play an unfair game. Right now, since no one runs MB 4cc enchantment removal and creatures are getting bigger and less dense, it seems silly not to run them. They're not necessarily in with the sacred 7 removal slots (4 STP, 3EE), but they're just solid at the moment.

[Teuras]

I was helping a friend brainstorm on one of the Isochron Scepter decks. He ended up going Mono-White. But it wasn't until I saw the Top 6 Landstill (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=31859) build from 13.4 Indianapolis 5K that it hit me that Isochron Scepter could work quite well in a Landstill build.

I made some personal preference changes to the deck by adding more Planeswalkers (I just love playing those Jaces). We did a few hours of testing yesterday with a friend through MWS against different decks. Against most decks its just game over when I resolved a Scepter with Orim's Chant. Even a Scepter with Counterspell gave a lot of time to work on defences as the opponent has to be able to try and cast two spells to be able to resolve one of them (only to run into a Swords or Counterspell from hand).

We didn't test with Sideboard yet, but I'm toying around with boarding the Scepters out against Green decks (Zoo etc) who board in Krosan Grips. I also briefly tested a Cunning Wish version but found it to be a bit "clunky/slow". Of course you get more options to put under Scepter that way.

UWr ScepterStill

2 Island
2 Plains
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
1 Dust Bowl
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
1 Academy Ruins

2 Jace, the Mindsculptor
2 Elspeth, the Knight-Errant
1 Ajani Vengeant

4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Isochron Scepter
2 Orim's Chant
2 Fire/Ice

Its nice to get some new ideas for Landstill (like the ThoperStill ^^).

[rsaunder]

What matchups does something like that engine improve? The copies still get hit by CB and Iona, you lose access to mass removal and spell snare and are stuck with quite a few mediocre instants MB (fire//ice and chant). Also, the copies don't get around your own standstills. There really isn't much synergy to be had here.

[Shawn]

There really isn't much synergy to be had here.

Does that really matter, though? If you have Chant on a stick, you don't need to draw 3 cards. If you have removal, machine gun their board then cast Ancestral. If you have a Counterspell, clear the board, cast Standstill and draw three, then counter whatever they played.

[RogueMTG]

I've always liked scepter, recurring your spells is obviously powerful, and it's possible there is a deck out there that it would really fit into, but I don't think Landstill is that deck.

On top of the obvious lack of synergy with Landstill's general strategy, it opens you up to getting 2 for 1nd, it's an absolutely dead card in top-deck mode, and it encourages playing other bad cards.

[Mark Sun]

Yeah, so, I got absolutely massacred today at GYGO at Michigan, playing my UWr build and finishing an abysmal 0-3-1, the worst record that I have finished in any tournament. Long time to reflect on the way home as my friend was passed out in the car. First of all, spending 14 hours & wasting $40 in gas and entry will do that to you.

Way too many Jotun Grunts, Rhox War Monks, Trygon Predators today to make Firespout close to effective. I found myself having to do alternate boarding plans to not have dead draws, and SDT spun like a pro, giving me 14 lands total in one of the games for my ass-raping in R2. No Wrath, no Humility at all against NO-Pro in R3. Also, I'm losing now to even bad Merfolk decks for some reason, I don't know what's going on. Slightly frustrated with the deck right now, it just seems like it's trying to do too much right now and I find so many 2-of's here, and 1-of's here. Playing again tomorrow at a slightly less hostile metagame, which I'm going to revive the black splash for (should be no Reanimator, to my knowledge, so it could be safe). Maybe it will get better results.

I did, however, get to meet various Sourcers, including Hitman82, which was cool. If anyone is playing the red splash, how has it been treating you?

[Mark Sun]

Yeah, so, I got absolutely massacred today at GYGO at Michigan, playing my UWr build and finishing an abysmal 0-3-1, the worst record that I have finished in any tournament. Long time to reflect on the way home as my friend was passed out in the car. First of all, spending 14 hours & wasting $40 in gas and entry will do that to you.

Way too many Jotun Grunts, Rhox War Monks, Trygon Predators today to make Firespout close to effective. I found myself having to do alternate boarding plans to not have dead draws, and SDT spun like a pro, giving me 14 lands total in one of the games for my ass-raping in R2. No Wrath, no Humility at all against NO-Pro in R3. Also, I'm losing now to even bad Merfolk decks for some reason, I don't know what's going on. Slightly frustrated with the deck right now, it just seems like it's trying to do too much right now and I find so many 2-of's here, and 1-of's here. Playing again tomorrow at a slightly less hostile metagame, which I'm going to revive the black splash for (should be no Reanimator, to my knowledge, so it could be safe). Maybe it will get better results.

I did, however, get to meet various Sourcers, including Hitman82, which was cool. If anyone is playing the red splash, how has it been treating you?

[GoldenCid]

You are not alone. I had terrible troubles this weekend, with my UWb build:

Without counterbalance

R1: Pro bant 1-0. 1-0-0.
R2: Merfolks 1-0. 2-0-0
R3: Pox 0-1. 2-0-1.
R4: Burn 2-1. 3-0-1

With counterbalance

R1: White stax 1-1. 0-1-0
R2: Brown stax 0-2. 0-1-1
R3: Dreadstill 2-0. 1-1-1
R4: Goblins 1-2. 1-1-2.

Colour screw was almost ever present.

[1mpulse]

Yeah, so, I got absolutely massacred today at GYGO at Michigan, playing my UWr build and finishing an abysmal 0-3-1, the worst record that I have finished in any tournament. Long time to reflect on the way home as my friend was passed out in the car. First of all, spending 14 hours & wasting $40 in gas and entry will do that to you.

Lol, welcome to GYGO, where almost every player is btter than your averge player.

[mossivo1986]

I think it had more to deal with the current meta and landstills position in it rather then average player skill of a tournament. Landstill's roll in the current meta is basicly non-exhistent because there are creature based decks that basicly act the same way in which landstill tries to control the game, but simply put more aggressive and alot more efficient.

To prove my point Mark Sun who just did shitty at gygo also top8'd the mean deck open in the last month or so. I on the other hand finished 2-3 drop at the meandeck open when I went, but top4'd the last time I played at gygo.

[RogueMTG]

I think it had more to deal with the current meta and landstills position in it rather then average player skill of a tournament. Landstill's roll in the current meta is basicly non-exhistent because there are creature based decks that basicly act the same way in which landstill tries to control the game, but simply put more aggressive and alot more efficient.

To prove my point Mark Sun who just did shitty at gygo also top8'd the mean deck open in the last month or so. I on the other hand finished 2-3 drop at the meandeck open when I went, but top4'd the last time I played at gygo.

OR, it could be, you know, this:



...Way too many Jotun Grunts, Rhox War Monks, Trygon Predators today to make Firespout close to effective...

You should be crushing any decks that play Grunts, War Monks or Predators.

But I don't play Firespout, so maybe that has something to do with it. <3 Wrath.

[mossivo1986]

That probobly has alittle to do with it. I imagine 2 main deck slots were a big part of the reason he finished 0-3-1 or something of that nature.

[Mark Sun]

@ 1mpulse: Joel is correct; my previous statement was not to be taken as any type of insult towards the play skill of the group at GYGO; I've been there before and I have played at that store before, and there are a lot of people that I know are good players. I am by no means the best player in the world and wouldn't say something asinine like that.

1 Ajani V, 2 Firespout, 3 Helix main was a terrible choice to bring to that tournament, as each of those cards became incredibly narrow against that field. There were a lot of times where they would play a Grunt or War Monk, and I would have a Helix in my hand, and so forth. Humilty hardly stuck post-board, as I was forced to keep those in, and as I expected, those bit the dust pretty quickly. Generally, more StP effects, less cute bullshit for the next attempt. I am okay with cutting Firespouts for Wraths and Helixes for StP effects, that will rape the Counterbalance plan which can be ditched in the SB. Lots of renovating to do.

Wraths and Counterspells this time, as I agreed with Paul (Hitman82), the format is too random right now to fully rely on Spell Snare and FS. Btw, Jace 2.0 was probably one of the reasons that I didn't pan out as I hoped. He was in the MD for Iona protection (along with Karakas), but now that I've had a chance to play a second tournament with him, this guy probably isn't worth it. Jace 2.0 will never replace FoF, which I missed dearly. Those who have tested him, feel free to let us know your thoughts on him, but I would not recommend him to people who want to make cuts to include him in their lists. I'd rather punt the Reanimator matchup each time with my lonely Karakas, then have to miss out digging 5 cards deep when I desperately need it. Outside of that, he's strictly win-more (not to mentioned completely cold to CounterTop anyways, SDT > Fateseal).

[mossivo1986]

If you play my old list you will literally eat bant lists alive.

[Mark Sun]

If you play my old list you will literally eat bant lists alive.

I might, sexy, just for you :tongue:

Still like that list, although I probably only have a slightly outdated one on MWS.

[Hitman82]

While I believe Landstill should be designed with a mainboard for dominating creature decks, if you want to play a version that's more versatile and less dominating against creature decks, here's what I would play.

4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
2 Cunning Wish
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Wrath of God
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Decree of Justice
1 Crucible of Worlds

3 Island
3 Plains
3 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins

3 Planar Void
4 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Curfew
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Extirpate
1 Dismantling Blow
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Chalice of the Void

Morbid - I strongly disagree that Tolaria West and Karakas is worth running. Unless you're doing something else early in the game to get you to the point where you have Karakas, you're just going to get blown out with your two singletons somewhere in your deck. That's no kind of reliable strategy and it will cost you in other matchups, like Goblins, where they play mana denial and you have Karakas or Tolaria West in your hand. Just have your few outs to Reanimator in the Wish board and call it a day. Reanimator sucks and it'll lose popularity soon, especially with the prices increasing all the time. Landstill's just a dog to Reanimator, oh well. I'd rather win the infinite Zoo and Merfolk matchups around than the sparse Reanimator ones here and there. The format revolves around the Zoo-Counterbalance-Merfolk dynamic. Those are the decks you should worry about. Except for Merfolk, this list is still good against those decks. If you play my red version, it's good against all three, but you're down on red right now. Ajani, Lightning Helix and anything else red isn't worth playing. Firespout is amazing right now though and is definitely worth playing. Red can give you some sideboard options like R.E.B. but I really doubt you would ever need that with this deck. I can't actually think of a deck I want R.E.B. against beside Merfolk but you already win that match with my red splash version. For me, the difficulty in deciding which splash to play is whether you want a stronger mainboard or stronger sideboard. I always choose a stronger mainboard. Black offers you some awesome sideboard cards, namely Planar Void, but Red offers you a practical win against most of the format (Zoo and Merfolk). That's my opinion; take it for what it's worth.

For reference, my red version is:

4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Humility
2 Firespout
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Decree of Justice
1 Crucible of Worlds

3 Island
3 Plains
3 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
4 Flooded Strand
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins

Remember that even though Reanimator and Storm are popular right now there was only one copy of each deck at GYGO. See what I mean? Even if the deck is good, you don't necessarily have to prepare for it because it will be a minority to decks like Counterbalance, Zoo and Merfolk which there were several of each of those at GYGO. I still suggest the red splash right not unless Merfolk starts getting replaced by Storm, Dredge or Reanimator, in which case you shouldn't be playing Landstill anymore anyway.

[mossivo1986]

Like Paul said,
You dont have to prepare for every deck at a tournament, because you are going to dodge match-ups. Some match-ups you are a dog to. Dredge, reanimator, tes, etc. etc. but what you can improve on is making sure your good matchups are fantastic ones and addressing the clearly bad ones out of the board. Thats all that landstill CAN and SHOULD do. Landstill is a fair deck. It doesn't use unfair cards really besides perhaps for Humility which costs 4 making it reasonably a fair card.

[rsaunder]

@Morbid: Jace 2.0 has a massive learning curve, which I've learned that hard way a few times. Your example is a tad obvious though, you should NOT be fate sealing them if they're in anything but topdeck mode. Otherwise it's better not to look at him as a kill condition and brainstorm every turn and get some massive CA. That's generally the best strategy when you dont need his bounce. In fact, my jaces rarely get bigger than 3. I just bumped up to two and am very happy with the choice. He's such a bomb: better where FOF is amazing and proactive where you need it. As an iona answer he's fine, but I think I'd still run him without that threat at this point.

Karakas and Tolaria west is absolute jank man. Like... eww. So convoluted and hurts your manabase with 2 weak lands for such a small problem. You're better off just boarding more heavily, which is about where I am for the reanimator matchup.

@Firespout: I haven't needed it much. Keeping it MB imo is just pre-boarding against aggro, much like keeping a couple negates MB could be a good call sometimes. With 7 STP effects MB and Ajani I haven't had ANY trouble with merfolk or zoo.

[mossivo1986]

I dont understand how Jace 2.0 could possibly have a massive learning curve. Cast, unsommon, bs.bs.bs.bs.bs.bs. etc. unsummon again if you need to wait till it dies and win through pure attrition through jace.

[Coetzee]

What sort of MD+SB would you recommend for a meta that looks someting like tihis:

Bant Survival
Eva Green
Meat Hooks
Merfolk
Reanimator
Faeries
Zoo
Green Chalice aggro

Just started to to do some minor testing with a list close to the one Morbid posted a few pages back, so far i have beaten Zoo a couple of times quite easily but Eva Green just crushed me.

[rsaunder]

I dont understand how Jace 2.0 could possibly have a massive learning curve. Cast, unsommon, bs.bs.bs.bs.bs.bs. etc. unsummon again if you need to wait till it dies and win through pure attrition through jace.

Well fine, that's it 90% of the time. In some matchups and at some times the fate seal trick is deadly, you just have to know when to use it.

Coetzee: Humility and P2E would ruin most of that meta coupled with EE.

[klaus]

A friend of mine recently won a local tourney with a rather interesting list that I wanna share with you (no Elspeth's, no Counterspells, no Humilities, no Paths to Exile, and well no "real" Standstills). I'm not down with all his choices but I find the deck pretty innovative and will test a bastardized version in the near future.
Sure, it does have some weak spots - its combo MU is far from being brilliant and non basic hate.dec can be an issue but beyond that I find it to be a decent meta deck that can just plow through certain fields (Aggro (barring Zoo, maybe), Aggro control and Control).

"CAB - Jace Control"

3 Jace the Mindsculptor
4 Brainstorm
2 Cunning Wish
2 Forbid ------------------------------------------------------------------------- should probably be CS
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Firespout
4 Maze of Ith ------------------------------------------- probably the most confusing choice - I actually never ever considered Maze and even if I did play it I'd never go up to 4! Those are land 25-29 though, so he really uses them as uncounterable creature hate.
4 Treasure Hunt -------------------------------------------------- could easily be Standstill - he was really happy with it though. I'd try to find some room for 1-2 Tops to improve the odds of 1 for 3ing.
1 The Abyss -------------------------------------------------------------------------- I kind of like that choice.
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Engineered Explosives ----------------------------------------------------------------------- I'd probably cut 1 for an Enlightened Tutor

3 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Plateau
1 Tropical Island ---------------------------------- was employed merely to enhance Firespout (it's not like you need EE@ 5..)
2 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins

Sideboard:
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Enlightened Tutor
3 Extirpate
1 Forbid
1 Pulse of the Fields
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Spell Pierce
1 Wing Shards
1 Wrath of God

---
Feel free to rip that shaz apart.
---
Edit: So this is what I'd it adjust to:

3 Jace the Mindsculptor
2 Ajani Vengeant
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Path to Exile
3 Firespout
3 Maze of Ith
3 Treasure Hunt
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 The Abyss
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Plateau
1 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins

Sideboard:
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Spell Pierce
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Krosan Grip ---------------------- I know there's just 1 Tropical in the MD, but most of the MUs you'd side Grip in don't play Wasteland anyway (CounterTop, Enchantress, Faerie Stompy, Control etc..)

[johanessen]

That list is plenty of suboptimal card choices.

[Elf_Ascetic]

I've played with The Abyss for a time, but it's really not suited for an agressive metagame with Zoo, Goblins, Merfolk and Quasali Pridemage. I see no more reason to play The Abyss over Humilty, Moat or Wrath of God. I doubt that Treasure Hunt is better then standstill. It's an interesting list however, thanks for sharing.Your version is much better, but my points are still valid.

Thereby, Elspeth > Jace 2.0 > Ajani Vengeant.

[klaus]

@ Coetzee:

UWr Landstill appears to be pretty good for your meta. The 2 superb cards that the red splash gives you are Firespout and REB - let's take a look:

Bant Survival:
Firespout is actually mediocre, not killing Goyf and Warmonk sucks. However, it does hit Hierarchs, Teegs, Pridemages as well as Kira, Cliques and Sprites (if you add a singleton Tropical, which I'm currently testing)

Eva Green:
Wrath>Firespout, due to Tombstalker and Goyf.
REB is useless, but 7 STP effects and a lowered curve should make this MU quite winnable.

Meat Hooks, Merfolk:
both, Firespout and REB are awesome here.

Reanimator:
Firespout is useless, but turn 1 REB disruption will be very helpful (Carefulstudy, Mystical Tutor, Show'n'Tell)

Faeries:
REB is very cool here, Firespout can be cool if you have that Tropical and they don't waste it right away.


Zoo:
Firespout > Wrath - quick removal is crucial in this MU

Green Chalice aggro:
This MU is very unpredictable: they can turn 1 Spawnwrithe you - slam down Chalice or Trini turn 1 and just destroy you, or the game might go back and forth and then out of nowhere they 'll just N. Order ftw.
Obviously REB is useless, but Firespout will do its job (hitting Spawnwrithes, Beast tokens, Elephant tokens, Spiritguides etc..).
---
Edit: there's a sample draft on page 192 - it would need adjusting though, since your meta does not seem to be combo-infested. Meaning it's make sense to cut 2 Tops and 3 SB CBs. Those slots should be occupied by more creature hate - your meta actually screams for humility I could see you adding 1-2 to the MD and an additional Firespout and 1 Path to the SB.

[arebennian]

Gideon Jura 3ww
Planeswalker - Gideon Mythic Rare
[+2]: During target opponent's next turn, creatures that player controls attack Gideon Jura if able.
[-2]: Destroy target tapped creature.
[0]: Until end of turn, Gideon Jura becomes a 6/6 Human Soldier creature that's still a planeswalker. Prevent all damage that would be dealt to him this turn.
Starting Loyalty = 6
Illus. Aleksi Briclot #21/248



Thoughts on this guy in a Landstill shell...
Better/worse than Elspeth?
Replacement or in addition to?

[daPaule]

Gideon Jura 3ww
Planeswalker - Gideon Mythic Rare
[+2]: During target opponent's next turn, creatures that player controls attack Gideon Jura if able.
[-2]: Destroy target tapped creature.
[0]: Until end of turn, Gideon Jura becomes a 6/6 Human Soldier creature that's still a planeswalker. Prevent all damage that would be dealt to him this turn.
Starting Loyalty = 6
Illus. Aleksi Briclot #21/248



Thoughts on this guy in a Landstill shell...
Better/worse than Elspeth?
Replacement or in addition to?

I don't see any use of it, it's an extremely overcosted Fog or Death Stroke unless the last ability for [0] should be "Until the beginning of your next turn" or "you can use this ability everytime you could play an instant".
Using the first one will result in him (her ?) dying, the 2nd is Death Stroke whereas you could play wrath and kill all opposing creatures for even 1 mana less and the 3rd exalted angel at least has evasion ;-)
So it's a combination of 3 cards in one, may thin the maindeck, but none of the three are played anyway.

[ultimoman]

I think Gideon could have his uses but it depends on the build. I'll have to test him and see.

On another note, it seems more players are not using Cunning Wish anymore (A. Goldmane as well). Is it just not up to par anymore in the meta?

Sorry I'm a bit out of the loop, my computer was down for awhile.

[Julian23]

I'm counting the days till Marius Hausmann (wasteland) posts his UWb "Landstill Revolutions" list he's most recently started crashing tournaments with.

[ultimoman]

Recent notes through playtesting:

1. DoJ doesn't seem as good as it used to be. Its too slow in today's meta. I still feel its worth using but for most I don't think 3 of is a good idea. 2 is pushing it even but can be alright. 1 is fine, at least for me.

2. Mishra's Factory...also is not what it used to be. Perhaps its because of the power creep but its just not performing up to expectations anymore. I usually have to pay mana just to have it chump block and die, or just get hit with a swords, path, etc. Most often though it just gets hit with a Waste and they continue to beat face with their own man-lands or something else. Its too vulnerable and not strong enough from what I'm seeing.

This could all just be bad luck but it happens often and seems to be happening more and more. Anyone else dealing with this? I'm tempted to just take out the Factories and throw in more Wastelands. Example: If I play Standstill its because I have board position with a Factory or two, but then they end up dropping 1 or more manlands to make things difficult. A Wasteland or two soon follows and then I have to break my own Standstill in order to survive temporarily. Same scenario but I have Wastelands out. I destroy their manlands and their Wastelands are rendered useless (besides against duals of course but that can be dealt with at times). An opposing DoJ can be a problem then, but thats rather rare. With Landstill no longer being listed as a DtB, seeing DoJ cycled on the other side of the table is even rarer and there are ways around that.
Basically I'm thinking of going up to 3 or 4 Wastelands by taking out the Factories, or at least take out 2 out of the 3. This would be for more defensive purposes of course and could help a decent amount I think. I very rarely get the chance to have out both Standstill and the Factories to deal decent damage, if any. They end up getting wasted (literally) or outnumbered by other man-lands.

Hope my post isn't confusing! Just some things I've noticed throughout alot of testing. Thoughts?

[Felidae]

I don't get a part of yoir point: You mentioned that you're gonna cut DoJ down to 1 because it seems to slow in the current Meta, on the other hand you have to break your own Standstill due to enemys Manlands. If you'd run 2 or even 3 DoJ's (3 seems to much but 2 should be fine) it should improve your game under a Standstill.
I personally run a 3/3 Split between Factory and Wasteland and it worked fine so far, I can't really imagine to cut down the Factorys to 2 or even 1.

@ Julian23: Is there a reason why Wasteland has quite playing Ur Dreadstill?

[Sinkhole]

Hallo

After a long break from Mtg and Legacy, I`ve decieded that it`s time for a comeback. I came up to running Landstill with the R-Splash, because my local meta will be Aggro at most (Meerfolks, Zoo, Eva Green, Goblins) and it`s the only deck I could build with my current card pool :tongue:. So i think Landstill isn`t the worst choice. It would be great if some of the experienced landstill players could give me some feedback on my following list.

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare

4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Path to Exile
2 Wrath of God (maybe Firespout I`m not sure)
2 Enginereed Explosives
1 Humility

4 Standstill
2 Cunning Wish
1 Sensei`s Divining Top
1 Crucible of Worlds

2 Elspeth
1 Ajani Vengeant
1 Decree of Justice

4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
4 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Mishra`s Factory
1 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
2 Island
2 Plains

I`m not sure how the sideboard should look exactly, but I think, I throw a lot of combo and reanimate hate in, for dealing with them. And should I cut down the land count from 24 to 23 and adding a Sword, Explosives or Top? Thanks for your answers and sorry for my bad English!

[ultimoman]

@ Felidae: Thats a good point you make, heres my explanation. I use 3 Standstill and have been using 2 DoJ in the deck. Its not often when I have an active Standstill out with a DoJ in my hand, along with enough mana to make it useful (at least 5 mana for cycling). 5 mana is the minimum needed to at least trade with a lone manland. Often times DoJ just sat in my hand because I didn't have enough to make it worthwhile or just didn't have iot when needed. I'd play it when I had no other choice and hopefully I was able to at least trade with them, but then they proceed to beat with another. 2 DoJ wasn't enough to consistently draw it when I needed it and 3 would likely be too much in today's faster environment. 1 is obviously not enough to draw it early but still often does a good job when cast and its not sitting in my hand waiting for lands. When it works, DoJ is an insanely powerful card and very useful for a finisher, but I cut it to 1 at least temporarily to see how things work.

A 3/3 split between Factory and Wasteland is interesting and would certainly work as well I imagine, but I'd fear that I would have too many colorless sources (I also use 1 Academy Ruins). Has that been alright for you?

[Felidae]

I guess it will depend on your Version. If you run Uwb with black only as a source to set EE@3 and for some SB stuff it should be no problem (being able to fetch for some Basics at the beginning to avoid Wasteland) 6-8 off colourd sources might work. Uwr looks a bit tougher.

[Zhukai]

Hey everyone! I've been working on my own version of UW Landstill and was hoping to get some feedback. This is my list at the moment:

4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
5 Plains
4 Island
1 Academy Ruins
1 Mutavault

1 Wrath of God
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Path to Exile
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Humility

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Standstill
1 Elspeth
1 Ajani Goldmane
3 Decree of Justice
1 Eternal Dragon

I do not use Wastelands because legacy is very underdeveloped in my area and I do not have any Mishra's Factories (yet). Feel free to tear this list apart. :)

[rsaunder]

19 land is about 4 less than you should be playing. I'm amazed you hit your 4 drops, really ever. The ajani should probably be an elspeth, and 3 doj looks heavy. Also, your cb curve looks super low, like you have a tiny chance of hitting anything other than 1cc. Any particular reason you're running that over another counter package?

[Zhukai]

First off, thanks for the tips. I've never played a deck quite like this one so it's kind of foreign to me. Anyway, I'm a fan of the CounterTop engine because players in my area have no idea how to deal with it. It pretty much means gg because they are afraid of having anything countered and play the draw-go game while I build my board up. It does seem kind of clunky though, any suggestions for a stronger counter package? My meta mostly consists of elves, goblins, zoo, and various rogue aggro decks.

[Felidae]

For an aggro heavy meta like yours I'd play more cheap board sweapers like Firespout to deal with small stuff. Besides your 8 StP effects you should have no problem to deal with any kind of aggro.
Ajani seems out of place in your list, the same goes for the CB. All of the major decks you mentioned (Goblins/Elves/Zoo) have acces to Krosan Grip post board and I guess they will figure out that it is a blast against CB and Humility pretty soon.
An allternativ would be 3-4 copys of Spell Snare, wich can easily hit various targets in your meta, such as Goyf, Qasali Pridemages, 2cc Elves like Priest and Co. ,Magma Jet, we could go on forever.
As mentioned above 19 lands are far to less for a deck like landstill where you want to hit your first 4-5 landdrops in order to play such devasting spells like Humility or Elspeth (or cycle DoJ for a good amount of token).
I could imagine to run 2-3 Kitchen Finks in your deck, in order to recover from an early blow, another way would be a Cunning Wish for Pulse of the Fields, Ajani is to clunky to be as effectiv as it should be.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Hey, random idea: for a version of this deck that doesn't run any actual creature cards (as in "card type- creature"), I was wondering if it might work to include 2-4x Polymorph and 1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=103210&stc=1&d=1269384672)? It's not quite as cheap as playing Natural Order for Progenitus, since you need an extra :1: for the man-land activation, but it seems like you could use it as an "oops, I win" that would actually be pretty powerful, and it would reduce the need to play all your matches to time. :wink:

There's also the added bonus that if this actually works out, there's no shortage of Polymorphs floating around out there, so it will stay cheap. Lol.

[klaus]

@ Dukedemonkn1ght:

I tried Polymorph, going into the Wish slot, when Progenitus got spoiled. I added 2-3 Bitterblossom (which acted kinda nicely both as stall and kill enabler) and cut Academy Ruins and Dustbowl for 2 additional Mutavaults - that alongside Elspeth and Factory was actually enough to support Polymorph, which I ran as a 2-of +1 Mystical Tutor.
Now Emrakul is definitely stronger than Progenitus, so I see where you're coming from.
But both "danger of cool things" and "win-more" applies here unfortunately.
The CMC 4 slots are packed with cards that don't need further investments to be able to win (read: Elspeth, Jace 2.0).
I'd probably change my mind if either Polymorph cost 2U or it'd give Emrakul haste, but since neither is the case, it's kinda meh to sacrifice 4 slots, make some more sub-optimal card choices and butcher the mana base.

[Seandb]

Hello everyone. I'm putting together my first landstill deck and looking for some constructive feedback. Any obvious changes that you would suggest? thanks!

3 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
3 Cunning Wish
2 Decree of Justice
2 Fact or Fiction
4 FOW
3 Spell Snare
4 STP
2 Wrath of God
1 Humility
4 Standstill
3 E.Explosives
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

1 Academy Ruins
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
2 Flooded Strand
2 Marsh Flats
1 Polluted Delta
2 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea

SB
4 Meddling Mage
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Extirpate
1 Path to Exile
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Negate
1 Runed Halo
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Relic of Progenitus

[deadlock]

I like the idea of having a way which enables the deck to win in a frame of like 2 turns, but instead of using Polymorph i opt to use Proteus Staff. Staff can be tutored, costs one less and doesnt 2-1 you immediately. As a little sideeffect, Emrakul protects you against Painter decks!

First the list, then the explanation:

Emkrakul Control:

// Lands (22)
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [MM] Dust Bowl (debatable)
2 [ZEN] Island
3 [B] Tundra
3 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
2 [B] Volcanic Island
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [ZEN] Plains
1 [ZEN] Mountain

// Draw and Search (13)
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Standstill
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [MI] Enlightened Tutor

// Permission (11)
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [DIS] Spell Snare

// Removal (9)
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
2 [RAV] Lightning Helix
2 [SHM] Firespout
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives

// Win (4)
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 [MR] Proteus Staff
1 [ROE?] Emrakul

// Utility (1)
1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds

Notes:
- Why Uwr instead of Uwb: I think that red is a stronger, third colour for a control deck like this currently. Firespout is the superior Wrath in most cases. It fits also better in the manacurve, which is lower than the traditional Landstill curve. Therefore i added 22 land instead of the usual 23. Lightning Helix may look odd, but i added it for a couple of reasons, it removes many creatures and is life-gain in one spell, also it is cmc2 for CB. Which leads me to the next point.
- Why CB: In my opinion it is better to ask, why NOT? It provides another way to gain card advantage, it hoses combo and Aggro-Control. Especially the former gave LS some trouble in the past, so i thought it is a good fit. With Emrakul in the picture you dont have to stabilize the board indefinitly, but you can be fine with something slipping through and then just go for the throat with Staff.
- Crucible: It strengthens the Tutor-toolbox approach and lets you reccur a manland if you want to use Staff, but have no creature to sacc. Also it gives you a reliable way to make landdrops to hardcast Emrakul at some point :cool: Could be moved to the board too.
- Number of Removal spells: Would be nice to have the third Firespout, Lightning Helix and the second EE. Would this be overkill or is it needed?

More notes to come, but for now i want to ask for opinions if something like this could be viable. The exact numbers need some testing. Please keep in mind that the blue count is a bit of concern, if you are tempted to propose e.g. 3 CB / 3 Standstill.

[GoldenCid]

nice idea!! Any experience from mws test??

[Zhukai]

So I added 4 more lands (2 plains, 2 island) into my list removing the counterbalances and I wasn't too thrilled with how it played. As important as those first 4 land drops are it seemed like they were taking away spots that could be used for more utility spells. Has anyone else had this problem?

[Pelikanudo]

I' ve seen this deck by Marius Haussman and I'd like to test this exactly list in order to improve it because in my opinion THIS list is the correct approach to play landstill I mean with c.balance main and thopter/sword.
here is the link
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=34444
if anybody in here is M.Haussman please let me know in order to know how exactly side vs the different decks in the meta, I'd like to be part of your testing group regarding to this deck.

Let's put up to the Tier 1 decks the landstill¡¡¡

[sadface]

That list is missing four cards. I'm guessing Swords to Plowshares..?

[Pelikanudo]

you're ritgh, in this tournament there is a exactly build in this sae top 8 from the same team with the 4 swords.

[Felidae]

@Pelikanundo: Marius Hausmann is "Wasteland" on this forum.
@ sadface: It seems so, the 8th places plays the same list including 4 StP's.
@Zhukai: Your list don't need anymore Basics, you should try and add the missing 4 Mishras Factory's. Also 7 counters seems to low, try and add
3 -4 Spell Snares (cards you can cut are 1-2 Tops/1 Decree and maybe one Path).

[Master Shake]

This is a bit of a break from what everyone has been discussing in the last few posts, but I wanted to share my list of Landstill that I have been doing very well with recently:

// Lands
4 Flooded Strand
2 Plains
1 Underground Sea
4 Tundra
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Wasteland
1 Scrubland
1 Karakas
1 Tolaria West
1 Academy Ruins
3 Island

// Spells
1 Humility
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Decree of Justice
2 Fact or Fiction
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
1 Moat
3 Cunning Wish
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Wrath of God
4 Counterspell
3 Standstill
4 Force of Will
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Path to Exile
3 Brainstorm
1 Spell Snare

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Path to Exile
SB: 1 Diabolic Edict
SB: 1 Ravenous Trap
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 1 Return to Dust
SB: 1 Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 3 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Negate
SB: 1 Echoing Truth

(There should probably be a Tormod's Crypt in my SB.)

The first thing to say about the deck is that I've been playing something close to this list for over a year, and when playing any deck, and especially a control deck, experience is a key factor to success. A lot of my wins come from my knowledge of the metagame and being able to play my this deck better than my opponent is able to play his deck.

I've been having a lot of success with Decree of Justice and really every card that everyone said is really bad right now. I tired playing with Firespout for a while, but I learned something - Firespout is not Wrath of God. I'm currently only running one Wrath, but I would really like to find the room for a second because Wrath is amazing - Firespout is only really good against Zoo.

Against Dredge I'm X-1 in the last 20 or so matches that I've played. Dredge decks without LED are entirely too slow to beat me before Cunning Wish comes on line. I have the same X-1ish match record against Counterbalance decks as well, only the sample size is much larger in this case. The case has generally been - if my opponent is using Tarmogoyf, I'm probably going to win. Yes, even against Zoo.

Speaking of Zoo, a lot of people in this thread have been talking about how difficult it is, I don't find this to be the case. Game 1 the plan is to get clear early beats and then hide behind a Moat; the entire game devolves into me keeping their Pridemages out of play. This is the same thing that happens against Counter-Top decks, Survival (And Survival Bant decks) And really anything that has Pridemage, decks that attack and don't have access to that cat just go to game 2 when Moat comes down.

I can still hit rough patches against Merfolk but in my testing I'd like to say I've done better than 50% win, but I'm willing to say that I'm around 50%. I've considered adding a third Path to the board to bring in against them. I remember what Geoff said about sideboarding against Merfolk a number of months ago, but I don't think I can afford to board out FoW against that deck.

My other really bad match is Renaimator, I've made the modifications needed to bring the win ratio up enough, but its still really a lot more luck based than I would care for.

While discussing combo, ANT is awful for me Game 1, but I've had excellent success with Cannonist, it wins tons of games and never lets them in. I'd like to look for room for a 4th, but I'm more concerned with trying to seal the deal on Merfolk without using something like Preacher.

43 Lands is generally favorable but often goes to 3 games. I find Aggro loam to be very favorable as well.

Tempo-thresh is really bad, but who plays that anymore?



As far as critiques go, I am looking for something to really cripple Merfolk and if anyone can suggest something that can help with the wishboard, that would be appreciated as well.

[GoldenCid]

I' ve seen this deck by Marius Haussman and I'd like to test this exactly list in order to improve it because in my opinion THIS list is the correct approach to play landstill I mean with c.balance main and thopter/sword.
here is the link
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=34444
if anybody in here is M.Haussman please let me know in order to know how exactly side vs the different decks in the meta, I'd like to be part of your testing group regarding to this deck.

Let's put up to the Tier 1 decks the landstill¡¡¡

It's great, i was suprised of seeing the thopter combo. The sideboarding it's strange thought. Spell pierce is for combo right?? Canonist wouldn't be better??

[Maëlig]

Anyone else thinking about the new consume the meek for the wishboard? It doesn't solve the Iona issue, but a tutorable pseudo-wrath affect still seems pretty sexy to me.

[GoldenCid]

It doesn't solve the Iona issue, but a tutorable pseudo-wrath affect still seems pretty sexy to me.

Really?? It includes black / white removal...so...1 iona can name 1 colour!

On the other side: 4 top, 4CB is really needed???

[Felidae]

Being able to wish for a pseudo Wrath seems good, but 5cc including BB are unplayable in my eyes.
It can't handle Iona because it only kills creatures with cc3 or lower.

[GoldenCid]

Being able to wish for a pseudo Wrath seems good, but 5cc including BB are unplayable in my eyes.
It can't handle Iona because it only kills creatures with cc3 or lower.

Oh...you reffer to the instant coming with RoE. I felt a bit confused with your comment.
Marius' list has a good chance in form of edict considering iona. I don't know if edit is the best choice, maybe...doom blade or snuff out works better when more creatures are in play...

Another thing i've noticed is that cmc=3 for counter-top is almost missing here except for o-ring. Can this be solved with the addittion of 1 crucible of worlds??
One more, marius omitted massive removal except for just 1 EE...what impresions do you have about this?? Isn't wrath needed??

[Reagens]

I think if Iona is such a big deal in your meta, you should probably look into diabolic edict or something likewise.

The reason is simple. Most decks using Iona (like reanimator) will only have Iona in play so edict is sufficient. The advantage of edict is that it hits 'shroud' creatures just as well (since an early inkwell can be devestating as well). Additionally it hits progenitus, nimble mongoose and perhaps other troublesome creatures as well.

If you're not playing a wishboard you could use chainer's edict since that has flashback, although I value instant higher then sorcery + flashback.

Doom blade is tagetted and conditional (non-black) and snuff-out is too dangerous because of the lifeloss (Landstill too often trades life points early game to set-up control mid/late game).

I agree with Felidae that CC5 BB is too much for the manabase to cope with. It can be difficult at times to get the much more needed WW or UU let alone BB in addition to those. I would play nevynneral's disk (with enlightened tutor in the board) before I would consider consume the meek. Although both options have very little appeal to me. Disk is at least more versatile then consume the meek and can be active on the same turn.

[Maëlig]

Most decks using Iona (like reanimator) will only have Iona in play so edict is sufficient.
That's a big assumption. Although it's generally true about reanimator, it's often not the case against survival builds.

If you're looking for a way to hit shroud creatures in addition to Iona, why not play curfew? It costs 1 less, it's not off-color and it's significantly better against reanimator (you opponent will have to discard the creature again before reanimating it).

[Reagens]

That's a big assumption. Although it's generally true about reanimator, it's often not the case against survival builds.

If you're looking for a way to hit shroud creatures in addition to Iona, why not play curfew? It costs 1 less, it's not off-color and it's significantly better against reanimator (you opponent will have to discard the creature again before reanimating it).

When survival has an active survival and was able toput Iona into play (probably through retainers). You are probably losing anyway.

Curfew is a very narrow answer whereas edict can be useful in several different match-ups and that's why I suggested edict above anything else.
The fact that edict is useful against shroud creatures is an added advantage and not a reason in itself to play the card. I have 3 wrath effects in my main deck to deal with such creatures but I can imagine having some edicts can be useful from time to time to keep an early-game critter of the board.

[coraz86]

You could, you know, play Karakas. Much funnier when they drop Iona, you drop Standstill, they're all 'sweet, I have Iona and I get to draw three when you answer her,' and then you drop Karakas and enjoy their frowny faces.

You could even maindeck Karakas if you're running any number of Tolaria West, though I'm not sure I'd recommend that.

[Maëlig]

When survival has an active survival and was able toput Iona into play (probably through retainers). You are probably losing anyway.
Once again that's quite an assumption you're making. If you're refering to the CA gap that's likely to occur with squee-recursion then we can either keep up with it, get rid of squee (eg by wishing for extirpate), or simply get rid of SotF. I've won quite a few games where my opponent had an active SotF at some point in the game.


Curfew is a very narrow answer whereas edict can be useful in several different match-ups and that's why I suggested edict above anything else.
The fact that edict is useful against shroud creatures is an added advantage and not a reason in itself to play the card. I have 3 wrath effects in my main deck to deal with such creatures but I can imagine having some edicts can be useful from time to time to keep an early-game critter of the board.
I was suggesting it as a wishboard option (sorry if that wasn't clear, but I was assuming that's what we were discussing), so the question isn't so much whether edict is more versatile than curfew, but whether it would be better in a specific context, ie one where you would want to wish for it (so basically Iona or shroud creatures, unless you can think of something else). I think it is, if you're still running PtE as a more classic form of spot removal (which you should imo).


You could, you know, play Karakas.
That would certainly be the best option, unfortunately it's not as easily tutorable as an instant.

[GoldenCid]

Yeah...but what to cmc=3 lack and counter - top??


I have 3 wrath effects in my main deck to deal with such creatures

But thopter list doesn't run anything except humility and EE as masive removal.
I started running wrath but then i changed then for vindicate to get up the cmc = 3.

[Reagens]

I was suggesting it as a wishboard option (sorry if that wasn't clear, but I was assuming that's what we were discussing), so the question isn't so much whether edict is more versatile than curfew, but whether it would be better in a specific context, ie one where you would want to wish for it (so basically Iona or shroud creatures, unless you can think of something else). I think it is, if you're still running PtE as a more classic form of spot removal (which you should imo).



Even if you are running a wishboard having versatile cards that can answer more then one specific threat seems preferable to a very narrow answer that serves only very few situations. I can't imagine that the deck has that much space in it's sideboard.


Yeah...but what to cmc=3 lack and counter - top??

Is blocking CC3 that important for the deck? If you can consistently block spells at CC1&2 in legacy you are doing pretty good anyway. If you really think you need it, you have oblivion ring + 2 enlightened tutors. Considering that you are also running 4 top, 4 brainstorm and some fetchlands it shouldn't be too difficult to get the ring in your top 3 cards. Substituting mass removal (wrath) for vindicate seems like a weak solution by the way. If you let everything revolve aroung counter/top resolving I'd suggest playing a 'pure' counter-top deck instead of a hybrid like Marius' list.

Why are you looking at Marius' list anyway? Granted. It should have a decent game 1 against a lot of decks in the field where classic Landstill might have problems finishing the game and it is definetly better against combo. But it seems so vulnerable to all kinds of common hate (krosan grip, extirpate, crypt, pithing needle). You can't possibly expect counter-top to protect you from all those things.

[HPB_Eggo]

But it seems so vulnerable to all kinds of common hate (krosan grip, extirpate, crypt, pithing needle).

Crypt simply doesn't matter, so long as you play correctly. Extirpate and Leyline are the only GY hate cards you really don't want to see.

Beyond that, though, Grip and Needle are definitely problems.

[Maëlig]

Even if you are running a wishboard having versatile cards that can answer more then one specific threat seems preferable to a very narrow answer that serves only very few situations. I can't imagine that the deck has that much space in it's sideboard.
You fail to remember that most lists still run a wishable PtE. Ask yourself : in what situations would you want to wish for edict rather than PtE and in which curfew wouldn't be a better option? I don't see many, but I can think of quite a few where curfew would be better.

@ thopter lists : I still don't get why you would run that combo rather than painter-stone (à la Quinn) and just win. Could someone clear this up for me?

[Reagens]

You fail to remember that most lists still run a wishable PtE. Ask yourself : in what situations would you want to wish for edict rather than PtE and in which curfew wouldn't be a better option? I don't see many, but I can think of quite a few where curfew would be better.


When you don't have room for both.




@ thopter lists : I still don't get why you would run that combo rather than painter-stone (à la Quinn) and just win. Could someone clear this up for me?


Painter-grindstone would make all the creature removal your opponent is sitting on game 1 (because of a lack of other targets) relevant. You wouldn't want that.
On the other hand I don't see why there should be any combo of any sorts at all in Landstill.

[Felidae]

Beside the Thopter / Sword combo (wich take only 3 Slots and could be replaced wich another Elspeth and or DoJ) we should focus on the 4 Balances/Tops wich make Hausmanns list unique (or at least let's say unusual).
I personaly don't like the hole idea at all, the list looks so susceptible against other CB decks without much improvement the the deck at all.

[Maëlig]

When you don't have room for both.
Wait, so you're saying you would run edict as the only wishable removal in your SB? That's madness, I'd rather run only PtE and be naked against iona or leviathan than not having a spot-removal option.


Painter-grindstone would make all the creature removal your opponent is sitting on game 1 (because of a lack of other targets) relevant. You wouldn't want that.
Point taken. That being said, most of the time you combo-off in the late game under the protection of CB and counters, so it's a moot point imo.

[GoldenCid]

Why are you looking at Marius' list anyway? Granted. It should have a decent game 1 against a lot of decks in the field where classic Landstill might have problems finishing the game and it is definetly better against combo. But it seems so vulnerable to all kinds of common hate (krosan grip, extirpate, crypt, pithing needle). You can't possibly expect counter-top to protect you from all those things.

Why not?? Yeah, krosan, extirpate, needle, are terible cards...for thopter combo!! But we also have elspeth and mishra's for the win. The combo is a complement for aggresiveness here and not an archetype!

And by the way...for getting rid from some threatens a flip could be tested. In my case i'll try postboard (off course when i consider that it's appropiate): -1 meek -2 thopter +1 E. dragon +1Decree of justice + 1 crucible of worlds.

Thoughts?

[Reagens]

Wait, so you're saying you would run edict as the only wishable removal in your SB? That's madness, I'd rather run only PtE and be naked against iona or leviathan than not having a spot-removal option.
.

I actually run no wishboard whatsoever because I need the space for my SB cards and because wish usually takes 2 turns to set up. IF I would use a wishboard I would want silver bullets for a number of situations that my MD can't handle and that have a game breaking effect. Since I run 4 Stp a Pte would have very little added value. Edict on the other hand could solve some problems that my MD can't handle.



Point taken. That being said, most of the time you combo-off in the late game under the protection of CB and counters, so it's a moot point imo
.

Seems like you are in complete control anyway when you reach that stage. Apparently you have problems actually winning some games even though you have a counter-top hardlock. Adding a combo instead of utilizing kill conditions that are good on their own (DoJ, E.Dragon, Elspeth) barely looks as an ideal solution then...




Why not?? Yeah, krosan, extirpate, needle, are terible cards...for thopter combo!! But we also have elspeth and mishra's for the win. The combo is a complement for aggresiveness here and not an archetype!

And by the way...for getting rid from some threatens a flip could be tested. In my case i'll try postboard (off course when i consider that it's appropiate): -1 meek -2 thopter +1 E. dragon +1Decree of justice + 1 crucible of worlds.

Thoughts?

Because in a metagame where there is an abundance of either GY based strategies (Loam, Lands and Reanimator) and answers to counter-top (mostly krosan grip) I don't see why you would play a strategy that relies both on your graveyard and your ability to keep artifacts/enchantments into play. Landstill is by design a deck that wants to get to the late game and win with CC4bombs that generate CA (wrath, elspeth, Fact of Fiction). Adding a combo has very little synergy with the deck in general.

Your idea for a transformational sideboard seems cute, but it will cost you a lot of SB space that you would rather spend on your bad matchups instead of trying to dodge their hate. I would much rather have an eternal dragon, DoJ or crucible which are good on their own then having to wait for the thopter combo...

[Maëlig]

I actually run no wishboard whatsoever because I need the space for my SB cards and because wish usually takes 2 turns to set up. IF I would use a wishboard I would want silver bullets for a number of situations that my MD can't handle and that have a game breaking effect. Since I run 4 Stp a Pte would have very little added value. Edict on the other hand could solve some problems that my MD can't handle.
You're looking at it from a wrong perspective. The idea behing running cunning wish isn't solely to provide answers to situations your MD can't handle, most of the time it's just to have some added flexibility : you should see it as an overcosted but extremely versatile answer, which is exactly what you want in the late game. So once again, not running some form of sport-removal (ie not edict) in your wishboard is pure madness imo.



Seems like you are in complete control anyway when you reach that stage. Apparently you have problems actually winning some games even though you have a counter-top hardlock. Adding a combo instead of utilizing kill conditions that are good on their own (DoJ, E.Dragon, Elspeth) barely looks as an ideal solution then...
Wait, I didn't say you should run a combo kill in landstill at all. I'm just saying that IF you were to put a combo in the deck, painter-stone is probably better than thopter. Here's an argument for running a combo-kill though : in an ideal situation you can take your time to kill your opponent once you are in complete control, but in practice time matters and you might need to win before the end of the round. Also, these combo pieces are the only tutorable kills you have (DoJ, dragon and elspeth are all very good but you can't tutor for them).

[ultimoman]

What does everyone think about this list:

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=34525

It uses Isochron in the main, and Descendant of Kiyomaro and Disk in the side. Interesting choices, but I'm not sure I'm sold on Isochron (at least not 3 of them). Theres just too much hate for it these days, even in game 1.

[GoldenCid]

Paiter - stone combo is not as good as thopter here. Thopter relies on artifacts and no creatures. On the other side i see a mistaken conception here, to include a combo is not playing a combo deck. So if there's krosan...what?? They side it in for crash humility, CB on so on. And needle, extirptate, are all the common hate we are used to. The combo does not inpairs the ability of winning of the deck. For the contrary it makes it more aggresive.

[Mark Sun]

What does everyone think about this list:

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=34525

It uses Isochron in the main, and Descendant of Kiyomaro and Disk in the side. Interesting choices, but I'm not sure I'm sold on Isochron (at least not 3 of them). Theres just too much hate for it these days, even in game 1.

Actually I believe Joel (mossivo1986) and I discussed on the phone some of his early iterations of Landstill, and Descendant was one of the choices. My friend played against that guy at Indy, btw, seems fine but commented after that the guy sided out the Isochron's in g2 and g3 because of his Pridemages, etc. I mean, is it really worth it for potential 2-for-1's?

[Reagens]

I think descendant is a very interesting SB choice in general for landstill although I prefer kitchen finks for now because the life gain is not conditional (minor point) and finks is very useful as a blocker against both gobs and merfolk.
I tested a version of landstill with scepter a while back and the fact that you can get 2-for-1'd quite often wat too detrimental. It reminds me of the article 'the danger of cool things'.



Paiter - stone combo is not as good as thopter here. Thopter relies on artifacts and no creatures. On the other side i see a mistaken conception here, to include a combo is not playing a combo deck. So if there's krosan...what?? They side it in for crash humility, CB on so on. And needle, extirptate, are all the common hate we are used to. The combo does not inpairs the ability of winning of the deck. For the contrary it makes it more aggresive.

Why do you want the deck to be more aggresive? And when in the game? Do you feel that even if you get into the mid/late game you are still losing too much games? What matchups do you seek to improve by using thopter/sword?

Personally I don't want to be dependant on any enchantments/artifacts. There is too much hate for it and I would be rather casting spells that are good all the time (wrath, decree,...) instead of enchantments/artifacts that make you either VERY dependent on them (humility) or require you to invest too much sources (counter/top, thopter/sword). And in the case of thopter/sword it's even worse since you need to have both to have a reasonable effect for your investment.
As a last point. I want my opponents to board badly against me. I noticed a while back that even though I had no enchantments/artifacts played in game 1. 95% of my opponents boarded grip or something similar against me game 2 because they are expecting enchantments. I prefer those slots to be dead for them. Quite a few of my opponents also board gy hate against me. Which is fine again, because in my list I only run 1 solitary E. Dragon. It is a strength of my deck that graveyard hatred, enchantment/artifact hatred and creature removal are all very situational against me and thus leaves them with quite some useless cards against my deck. In your case you are hoping to overwhelm them with artifacts/enchantments but I doubt this is a very consistent strategy.

[GoldenCid]

Once more...we are not dependant on we are complemented with.
In my experience what i've seen with thopterstill is that we have de agresiveness of a strong synergy with the heavy protection typical of landstill.
Yeah, maybe we loose son recurses compare with traditional landstill in form of wishes but with edict, the lifegaining of the combo and the tutors to o-ring and explosives to regulate artifacts and enchants we have a good deck here. I'm not seeing better or worse than the classic but a good deck for sure.

[Mark Sun]

because in my list I only run 1 solitary E. Dragon.

I am all of the sudden really interested :smile:

Care to elaborate?

I've honestly considered testing Thopter/Sword combo in Landstill (bonus - DoJ tokens + Sword = profit?), to see if there is any merit from running it, just haven't had time. Haven't played this deck since the end of last month, though.

[GoldenCid]

I am all of the sudden really interested :smile:

Care to elaborate?

I've honestly considered testing Thopter/Sword combo in Landstill (bonus - DoJ tokens + Sword = profit?), to see if there is any merit from running it, just haven't had time. Haven't played this deck since the end of last month, though.

Tested both versions (but no thopter together DoJ). And both has it's streghts and weakness.
Thopter: if you set the combo, you can gain much life and time to get sources or just win. So we have 3 form to win: Elspeth, thopter and mishra's. However, the introduction of meek thopter cost the removal of some nice sources such as, crucile, DoJ and explosives. This leds to a diminised ability to deal with permanents.

Classical: For me the advantage of this version is that we have a big deal of recourses to manage permanents. In contrast it's slower than thopter version.

For references and comments i post my two versions:

Thopterstill


/ Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [A] Underground Sea
2 [R] Tundra
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
3 [5E] Plains (1)
2 [U] Swamp (3)
3 [U] Island (2)
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins

// Spells
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 [OD] Standstill
1 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
2 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
2 [TE] Diabolic Edict
2 [ARB] Thopter Foundry
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [TE] Humility
1 [FUT] Sword of the Meek
2 [6E] Wrath of God

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [TE] Perish
SB: 3 [8E] Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [ARB] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [TE] Propaganda


Classical

// Lands
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [R] Tundra
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
2 [TE] Wasteland
2 [RAV] Island (1)
3 [CS] Snow-Covered Plains
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ZEN] Swamp (4)
1 [R] Underground Sea
1 [DK] Maze of Ith

// Spells
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 [OD] Standstill
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [TE] Humility
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
2 [6E] Wrath of God
1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
1 [SC] Decree of Justice
3 [JU] Cunning Wish
3 [IN] Fact or Fiction
3 [MM] Counterspell

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [FNM] Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 3 [M10] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [BD] Diabolic Edict
SB: 1 [TSP] Return to Dust
SB: 1 [M10] Doom Blade

[rsaunder]

This seems terrible: like it weakens the core of the deck while providing a clock not much faster than elspeth. Does anyone have any numbers or results to back this up at all or is this just "on paper speculation?"

[Oceanus]

However, the introduction of meek thopter cost the removal of some nice sources such as, crucile, DoJ and explosives. This leds to a diminised ability to deal with permanents.

I couldn't afford to cut Explosives, albeit you do run tutors. It just feels like the deck is getting watered down...perhaps akin to what rsaunder is getting at re: "weakens the core of the deck". An explosives @1 from the opening hand can be game breaking.

[RogueMTG]

This seems terrible: like it weakens the core of the deck while providing a clock not much faster than elspeth. Does anyone have any numbers or results to back this up at all or is this just "on paper speculation?"

I've toyed with the idea, but in the end gave up on it. It doesn't really help solve any of Landstill's problem matchups.

[GoldenCid]

So...discard thopterstill?
What do you think on my classical list?? I'll add a jace the mindsculptor, what owuld you cut for him???

And do you think it's worthly cut a MoI for a 3rd EE and playing with 23 lands??

[RogueMTG]

So...discard thopterstill?
What do you think on my classical list?? I'll add a jace the mindsculptor, what owuld you cut for him???

I've dropped Fact or Fiction for Jace. He's just so much more versatile. He can affect the board, gives you CA without giving your opponent any information, and is a maindeck out to Iona on white.

I used to say I didn't want to play Jace because if I was spending 4 mana on my own turn I should be winning the game. After actually testing him, Jace meets that requirement.

[GoldenCid]

I'll run 1 jace plus 2 fof plus 3 CW...i think that's versatile!

2 FoF or 2 SDT??

And-...does it worth cut a MoI for a 3rd EE and play with 23 lands??

Remember that i'd run:

2 Elspeth
1 Jace
2 Wrath
1 Humility
2 FoF

[rsaunder]

I'll run 1 jace plus 2 fof plus 3 CW...i think that's versatile!

2 FoF or 2 SDT??

How many 4cc's are you running? I'm running SDT's to smooth out my curve and draws: they fulfill similar roles late game but very different roles early game (FoF pitches to force and SDT does something relevant).

And agreed 100% with Rouge on Jace 2.0. He's amazing.

[GoldenCid]

I edited my post

[rsaunder]

6 4cc spells is honestly a tad... low. You can certainly get away with running FoF.

[GoldenCid]

sO...you recommend fof o sdt??

[rsaunder]

I run SDT, but I also run quite a few more planeswalkers than you do, and need the early game filtering.

[Felidae]

Has Maze of Ith added any decent feature to the deck without a way to tutor it up (like Tolaria West)?
My current list looks somehow like your current build with some minor tweaks:

3x Flooded
1x Marsh Flats
2x Polluted Delta
3x Tundra
1x Scrubland
1x Underground Sea
2x Island
2x Plains
1x Swamp
4x Mishras Factory
2x Wasteland
1x Academy Ruins

4x Swords to Plowshare
3x Path to Exile <- can be changed into Diabolic Edic if the meta is full of reanimator
3x Engineered Explosiv
1x Wrath of God

4x Force of Will
3x Spell Snare
3x Counter Spell

4x Brainstorm
4x Standstill
2x Fact or Fiction
2x Cunning Wish

2x Elspeth
2x Decree of Justice

SB:
1x Pulse of the Fields
1x Extirpate
1x Curfew
1x Path to Exile / Diabolic Edict
1x Return to Dust/ DIsmantling Blow
2x Faerie Macabre
2x Relic of Progenitus
1x Tormnond's Crypt
1x Ravenous Trap
3x Ethersworm Canonist
1x Crucible of the Worlds

I allways felt that 3 Wishes are to much, considering that you don't need your wishboard in every situation.
Just like your list I tried to design the maindeck to beat any kind creature based decks with the ability trought my sideboard to change the deck to fight combo, reanimator or dredge.
Any ideas how to improve the list ?

Cheers

[GoldenCid]

I'd add echoing truth in your wishboard, it helps to kill dredge's and belcher's tokens...and...1 additional wish should be fine.

[RogueMTG]

Has Maze of Ith added any decent feature to the deck without a way to tutor it up (like Tolaria West)?
...

No, Maze of Ith is bad in Landstill because you need your lands + landdrops to make mana really badly.

[rsaunder]

Imo, wish boards should be as small as possible. E. truth really doesnt handle any problems that EE doesn't handle and this guy's poor SB has been bastardized with all sorts of unnecessarty slots already. I mean:

1x Pulse of the Fields === good
1x Extirpate ===reason to run wish
1x Curfew ==== totally unnecessary with Edict
1x Path to Exile / Diabolic Edict ============ Just run edict.
1x Return to Dust/ DIsmantling Blow ===== wasted slot
2x Faerie Macabre ===== never going to see enough of a 2-of to make a difference
2x Relic of Progenitus ===and vvv
1x Tormnond's Crypt ==== consolidate your hate. 4 Macabre, 2 crypt = you beat reanimator and ichorid
1x Ravenous Trap ==== this is almost never useful... how many times do you really see ichorid? And have this make a difference where extirpate doesn't?
3x Ethersworm Canonist === I prefer counters and MM, but if you're only worried about storm (which judging by the rest of your board is not the case) he's good
1x Crucible of the Worlds ==== weaksauce with only 2 wastelands
0x enlightened tutor ==== this is the second best reason to run wish
0x counterspell-type-cards ==== ????

So I'd run... your MB -1 Path, +1 humility, because it wins games and 7 STP MB is totally unnecessary and:

1 e. tutor
1 Extirpate
1 Pulse (maybe)
1 Edict
1 P2E
3 Negate // MM// Cannonist (I'd go with negate, boarding in counters is such a good strategy against combo and reanimator, but cannonist would be better strictly against combo)
4 Macabre
2 Crypt/relic
1 Crucible

I'd probably also find a way to fit 2 Jace 2.0's in MB. They're such a house against the format right now.

[JamieW89]

I tested UWb landstill a bit on MWS and I'm loving this deck so far. Humility and Elspeth are some of the best cards I've played yet.
Things I'm not really certain about are:
- Karakas/Ruins/T.West: They've all helped me win games, but sometimes I'd have preferred a 3rd Wasteland and maybe 2 Basics.
- Combo Mathup: ANT seems pretty hard.
- Win Condition: Alot of people seem to run DoJ as well (or even combo's such as Thopter). Is it wrong to just run 3 Elspeth? (Ofcourse 4 factories are a decent wincon, especially under a humility, as well)
- Ench/Arti hate (Grip, Pridemage even): Somehow I encountered very little while testing (mainly tested preboard though :\) but being so dependant on enchantments and artifacts (Humility mainly but also Top & Crucible) might be weak in a meta with alot of Ench/Arti hate? (Humility won the majority of the games it lands though, because it's just so good)
- Counters: Is 9 counters too few and is 17 blue count enough for FoW?

// Land: 23
1 Plains
1 Island
4 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Underground Sea
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Academy Ruins
1 Tolaria West

// CA & CQ: 11
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Sensei's Divining Top

// Removal & Boardcontrol: 14
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Humility
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Vindicate
2 Crucible of Worlds

// Counters: 9
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare

// Win: 3
3 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

// Sideboard: 15
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Extirpate
3 Engineered Plague
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Hydroblast

[Wargoos]

1 e. tutor
1 Extirpate
1 Pulse (maybe)
1 Edict
1 P2E
3 Negate // MM// Cannonist (I'd go with negate, boarding in counters is such a good strategy against combo and reanimator, but cannonist would be better strictly against combo)
4 Macabre
2 Crypt/relic
1 Crucible

I'd probably also find a way to fit 2 Jace 2.0's in MB. They're such a house against the format right now.
Would you mind to share your md list also, please?

[rsaunder]

Would you mind to share your md list also, please?

I don't run wish, personally since I like having a SB, but this is my current list. Forgive me for the abbreviations:

4 STP
3 EE
2 WoG
2 Humility

4 Fow
3 CS
2 Spell Snare (could be pierce in the right meta)

4 Brainstorm
3 SDT
3 Standstill

2 Crucible
2 Elspeth
2 Jace 2.0
1 Ajani Vengent

4 Strand
1 Mesa
1 Tarn
4 Tundra
1 Volc
1 Plateau
3 Island
2 Plains
3 Mighra's
3 Waste

SB:
4 Macabre
2 Crypt
3 MM
2 Negate
2 REB
2 Firespout

[Shawn]

I don't run wish, personally since I like having a SB,

Wish doesn't wreck your board. It only needs to take up three slots out of the board: removal (Path/Edict), Pulse of the Fields, and a Disenchant effect. (Tutor, Dismantling Blow, or Return to Dust) Extirpate can simply take the place of one of the graveyard hate pieces in the board.

[Reagens]

Things I'm not really certain about are:
- Karakas/Ruins/T.West: They've all helped me win games, but sometimes I'd have preferred a 3rd Wasteland and maybe 2 Basics.


I would value consistency over flexibility here. Both manabases are fine but the ones including tolaria west cave a little quicker to dedicated hate (waste + stifle,…). If very few decks pressure your manabase in your metagame and you have an abundance of reanimator and such it’s a decent option.



- Combo Mathup: ANT seems pretty hard.


It is. This needs to be answered by your sideboard. Pre-side is a cakewalk for ANT since you have very little pressure and eventually run out of counters for their chant/discard effects. You can sometimes win through multiple counters + factory pressure.


- Win Condition: Alot of people seem to run DoJ as well (or even combo's such as Thopter). Is it wrong to just run 3 Elspeth? (Ofcourse 4 factories are a decent wincon, especially under a humility, as well)


I would not consider it to be ‘wrong’, Elspeth is a very strong card but I’d prefer not to be too dependant on it. Hence I run 3 DoJ and 1 Elspeth. You really shouldn’t underestimate DoJ. It serves many functions whereas Elspeth is a better win condition but a lot less flexible.



- Ench/Arti hate (Grip, Pridemage even): Somehow I encountered very little while testing (mainly tested preboard though :\) but being so dependant on enchantments and artifacts (Humility mainly but also Top & Crucible) might be weak in a meta with alot of Ench/Arti hate? (Humility won the majority of the games it lands though, because it's just so good)


This point has been made several times. There are people that are convinced that you can run your opponent out of answers for your art/ench and others (like me) who think they are a liability best to be avoided. The power of humility can be truly amazing but is too unreliable postboard. I did run it for a while though and was quite happy with it under certain circumstances.



- Counters: Is 9 counters too few and is 17 blue count enough for FoW?


I think you blue count is high enough but perhaps a bit on the light side. When boarding out blue cards I think you’ll need to side out forces as well (since you will have difficulty supporting it consistently). Personally I run 19 blue spells.
You have enough counters, but that really depends on your metagame (I run 1 spell snare extra)

Your list seems very one sided to me which is not necessarily a bad thing (you could easily call it focused as well). But you REALLY need either Elspeth or Humility to stick and preferably both which I presume will be difficult (not to mention slow) at times.
I’d be very interested to hear which match-ups go well for you and which don’t. Did you do tests with the SB as well on MWS? How did that go?

[rsaunder]

Wish doesn't wreck your board. It only needs to take up three slots out of the board: removal (Path/Edict), Pulse of the Fields, and a Disenchant effect. (Tutor, Dismantling Blow, or Return to Dust) Extirpate can simply take the place of one of the graveyard hate pieces in the board.

That's 3 less slots that I get to board in in the majority of my games. Board space is tight as it is, and I don't like cutting it shorter running narrow cards to wish for.

And before someone goes on and says that I just don't know how to play it or haven't tested it, I T8'd Vestal with a wish-build, losing to Bryant in T8. I've just moved away from wish, it's too much of a crutch when it boils right down to it, and you don't need it.

[RogueMTG]

I tested UWb landstill a bit on MWS and I'm loving this deck so far. Humility and Elspeth are some of the best cards I've played yet.
Things I'm not really certain about are:
- Karakas/Ruins/T.West: They've all helped me win games, but sometimes I'd have preferred a 3rd Wasteland and maybe 2 Basics.
- Combo Mathup: ANT seems pretty hard.
- Win Condition: Alot of people seem to run DoJ as well (or even combo's such as Thopter). Is it wrong to just run 3 Elspeth? (Ofcourse 4 factories are a decent wincon, especially under a humility, as well)
- Ench/Arti hate (Grip, Pridemage even): Somehow I encountered very little while testing (mainly tested preboard though :\) but being so dependant on enchantments and artifacts (Humility mainly but also Top & Crucible) might be weak in a meta with alot of Ench/Arti hate? (Humility won the majority of the games it lands though, because it's just so good)
- Counters: Is 9 counters too few and is 17 blue count enough for FoW?

...<list>...


Unless your meta is infested with reanimator, (in which case you should probably be playing something esle) with your MD I would do this:

-Karakas/T.West/Ruins
+Island/Plains/Wasteland
Reasoning: You need double blue and double white in every game in order to win, this helps you stabilize a lot. Also you're running 2x MD crucible, you should have at least 3 wastes to make use of them.

-1 Humility
+1 Wrath of God
Reasoning: 3x Humility is too much, and multiple copies are dead cards. Sometimes you just need to blow stuff up, especially for the times when you can't reliably keep Humility around. (Such as post board against green decks.)

-1 Elsepth
+1 Decree of Justice
Reasoning: DoJ is really the only real trump we have over other decks that play man-lands/wastes under Standstill. It has the ability to do things Elspeth can't (like ambush attackers). Plus it's not dead when you already have an Elsepth out like another Elspeth would be.

-1 Standstill
+1 Jace, The Mindsculptor
Reasoning: For one thing, Jace is an absolute beating (Maindeck out to Iona, insane CA turn after turn, and a win condition in a pinch). Also there are some matchups where Standstill can be a serious liability, whereas Jace should pretty much always have value.

Some answers:
IMO the 9 MD counters are fine. ATM I'm down to 8.

17 Blue cards you can mostly get away with, I feel much more comfortable with 18, but if there isn't room there isn't room.

Disenchant hate: It's out there, but Humility does protect itself against everything that isn't Grip. (Pridemage/Trygon). Some people don't bring it in, some do, honestly you're not totally reliant on your artifacts/enchantments either way. Just because everyone that plays white runs Swords to Plowshares doesn't mean people are going to stop playing Tarmogoyf. Just because everyone playing green packs 2x Krosan Grip in the SB doesn't justify not playing Humility.

Edit: (Suffice to say, I haven't lost a match because my Humility got Gripped. It's a useful tool, not a crutch.)

[DragoFireheart]

What caused Landstill to be pushed out of the Tier 1 category? Where all the aggro decks too much for it to handle?

[Reagens]

Looking at the DTB section should give you an idea.

ANT is big and is a very difficult match-up without 4-5 dedicated slots in the SB. Because you very often lose game 1 they have 2 chance of dodging your hate or just go nuts before your hate goes online.

Merfolk is an absolute beating.

Ichorid, Goblins and Loam are difficult as well.

The fact that counter/top decks are practicaly a walk-over is not enough anymore.

It's still a strong deck in the right metagame with the right pilot though.

@RogueMTG

I can follow everything you say execpt your argument for humility.
The problem with humility is that WHEN humility is destroyed/bounced that you will likely face lethal beatings. Also, when you only have humility late game it is still a possibility that you will be beaten to death with 1/1 tokens. Especially when you are running 2 or less WoG to complement your humility.
The plow argument is false as a plowed 'goyf will mostly not cost you the game while a bounced/gripped humility could very easily mean you're facing lethal next turn.
Also humility can be answered 1 for 1. There is no CA involved. Wrath on the other hand can set your opponent seriously back on cards.
Humility can be very strong in certain circumstances but if you rely too much on it, it will start to cost you games because your opponent got the answer at the right time. Seeing the amount of play SDT and fetchland gets this should not even be too difficult for even non-blue decks.

[RogueMTG]

What caused Landstill to be pushed out of the Tier 1 category? Where all the aggro decks too much for it to handle?

A couple of things probably. Aggro decks are certainly not one of them.

Merfolk can be a rough matchup depending on your build. People generally viewed it as a horrible matchup and abandoned the deck due to Merfolk's popularity.

Less people playing the deck means less chances of Top8s. With that and the "rebirth" of 43Lands and Reanimator ATM you can be looking at a new and hostile metagame. But Landstill is extremely versatile. And honestly it's a meta-game deck, IMO it'll just take time to find the proper adjustments for the current meta before it can come back. In the past couple tournaments it's performed pretty consistently across several pilots (Me/Rsaunder/Warden) Somewhere around: X-2/X-1-2/X-0-3. Often finishing just outside of the top-8 (Top16/24). It just needs that little something more to push it back into the next level. (Or, you know, better pilots xD.)




@RogueMTG

I can follow everything you say execpt your argument for humility.
The problem with humility is that WHEN humility is destroyed/bounced that you will likely face lethal beatings. Also, when you only have humility late game it is still a possibility that you will be beaten to death with 1/1 tokens. Especially when you are running 2 or less WoG to complement your humility.
The plow argument is false as a plowed 'goyf will mostly not cost you the game while a bounced/gripped humility could very easily mean you're facing lethal next turn.
Also humility can be answered 1 for 1. There is no CA involved. Wrath on the other hand can set your opponent seriously back on cards.
Humility can be very strong in certain circumstances but if you rely too much on it, it will start to cost you games because your opponent got the answer at the right time. Seeing the amount of play SDT and fetchland gets this should not even be too difficult for even non-blue decks.

IMO, If you've let the game get to the point where you have no cards are facing down an army of lethal dudes, and are banking on your Humility to get you there, you're doing it wrong and you would have lost a long time ago without it anyway. Humility is there as a tool to buy you a little time to answer their dudes without being substantially pressured and craft your hand/board until you're in a position that you really can't lose. Like I said, it's not a crutch it's a tool. I plow/path guys all the time even when Humility is out (just in case).

The only point where Humility is a 1 for 1 is if the same turn you cast it, they immediately Grip it, in which case you played into it. It's too good not to play, in some matchups it's an "I win" card, and really it's the only way you can play unfairly.

They have to spend turns Brainstorming/Toping/Fetching to answer it in order to even have a chance at getting you (all the while you are doing the same thing, except to just lock them out). They're not blowing up the Humility FTW, they are blowing it up so that they can be allowed to play Magic. That's value enough for me.

[GoldenCid]

Well...i did the mine with thopterstill! Gone 2-1-1 last weekend.

Just brief notes:

Pro:

-You can recover a game in an instant and turn it completely in your favour by comboing.
-I has a good percentage of the control of classical landstill with the chance of accelerating the victories.
- I got some 2-0!
- The life gaining in the mb make us less dependant on wish.

Troubles:

-The permanent control is poor compared with classical. Some critters on table make you waste a tutor to EE or O-ring.
-Covers very bad the cmc=3 with counter-top. Really cmc=3 awful cards come into play.
- I miss the lack of mana base disruption. My 2 wastelands in CL, solve some troubles refferred to the mana base / manlands controled by my opo.


Considering the draw engine and the mana base, i didn't feel major difference.

Comments?

[Vervamon]

Hi guys,

I have not posted in here for ages, but wanted to let you know that the GP Lyon (May, 7th / 8th) had a Legacy side event of 144 players on Sunday with numerous Landstills in the field. I, playing a very classic U/W Landstill list, did finish 11th after 8 rounds of Swiss and had to face two other Landstill players. Two friends of mine were playing a Thopter Foundry / Sword of the Meek Landstill variant, and another friend told me he had seen several other players with the deck as well.

Not sure if it is indicative of any trend, but Landstill was definitely NOT a marginal deck at the event. The Bazaar of Moxen tournament, to be held this week-end in Annecy, should confirm whether this was just a fad, of if the deck truly is regaining popularity.

[Omega]

Oh my, I haven't played in magic for months. three sets came out, don't even know how the meta shifted. Yet, i feel like landstill is the only deck for me :O

any suggestion. Two colors, three colors? Black or red? (No idea what my meta will be, I've been out for months...)

Going back to 'threshold' like deck is tempting, but i want to resist. Must resist.

[god_campbell]

I have been playing the red splash and likeing it, firesprout is great, and comes down one turn faster then WOG and it's important when playing vs daze and such.

[Tinefol]

Personally I find 4c build to be a better contender in this metagame, on a basis of Pernicious Deed being awesome, and having 3 color answers to Iona maindeck.

[rayaj]

Doesn't it seem that innocent blood may prove a better out to iona? It can come down on turn one whereas a swing to the face has to be taken if edict is used. Besides that it doesn't seem to have much of an effect on us considering the fact that when we do control creatures they're often soldier tokens. I understand edict is instant speed, but the utility seems relevant.

I personally am not a fan of the red splash because then you don't have a quick answer to iona on white. But if reanimator isn't much of a factor for you and goblins/merfolk/zoo are then go for the red splash. I like the red splash if you don't mind getting generally hosed by reanimator.

[Omega]

Actually, I faced 2 iona in my small tournament. I haven't played in ages, so the surprise was even bigger. Iona naming white, gg.

That sais, Reanimator completely owned me... Sure, the new jace (everyone kept talking about it) would have helped. But the iona thing was on the table very quick (first turn entomb, second turn exhume with FOW backup...)

Then I thought about karakas. Then, I heard it skyrocked... So that isn't an option.

The red helped me crush the aggro deck. Fire sprout and Lighting helix give me alot of time. WOG seem just too slow

[Hanni]

I haven't posted in the Landstill thread in a long time, even though Landstill is still my favorite deck (and I still think it's the strongest deck in the format).

It saddens me how much the deck has lost interest. It's also unfortunate to see that there is still no one packing maindeck Counterbalance.

I'm trying an experimental decklist right now that I have high hopes for, just figured I'd post the decklist to see what others thought:

U/W/b Kaejur Control
Counterbalance Landstill

/ Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [U] Tundra
1 [B] Underground Sea
1 [B] Scrubland
4 [7E] Island (3)
2 [P3] Plains (2)
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)

// Spells
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 [IA] Brainstorm
2 [OD] Standstill
2 [OD] Predict
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [ST] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
3 [BRB] Wrath of God
2 [JGC] Vindicate

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [JGC] Vindicate
SB: 4 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 4 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage

A few quick things:

I used to roll with U/W with Oblivion Rings, which is still a valid approach. Currently, I'm using a black splash for Vindicates instead.

Counterbalance maindeck is insanely powerful, and with a curve that works beautifully to support it, I cannot understand why no one uses it.

Jace 2.0 is at the same power level as Elspeth, and replaces the 2 DoJ's I used to run. It's versatility is great, obviously the power is there, and it's a strong win condition. It also has amazing synergies with Counterbalance.

I've long had a love/hate relationship with Standstill, and have been considering ways to remove them for a very long time, to no success. Now with Jace, I'm attempting a 2/2 split with Predict. Standstill is still too good to remove completely, but only 2 clogs me up less and gives me less dead cards against decks like Merfolk. 2 Predict is easily supported with 4 Brainstorm, 4 Top, and 2 Jace. I haven't gotten much testing with this configuration yet but I have high hopes.

Everything else is fairly standard.

[GoldenCid]

I really missed wasteland when i didn't use it!

[Spur Grappler]

@ hanni

Your list is quite interesting, but I have a few questions.

First, why do you play Counterspell over Spell Snare? Isn't CB in your list the card that has the purpose that Counterspell has in the standard build (having a solution to pretty much everything in the mid and late game)? Spell Snare seems to be a better choice in this slot because of its speed and its cost. Of course Spell Snare doesn't work that well with CB, but have you considered or tested it? Maybe a split could be an option too.

Second, is Predict really a strong enough card drawer in Landstill? It gets you one extra card for two mana which is of course not bad, but a card like FoF gets you more cards or a card you really need. Maybe FoF would be to high for your curve, but I don't think that Predict fits in this Deck. It's better in decks like Threshold or Fish that don't have the mana base for FoF.

Third, what is the point of playing Vindicate in the Sideboard? Of course it is definately a good card in this deck, but why having it in the board too? Its flexibility makes it a good card. So you could board it in against pretty much every deck except combo maybe. I mean, destroying a land for 1BW is pretty bad, destroying a creature or an artifact or an enchantment for that cost too. Just the fact that you have the option to use it as a solution for many problems makes it playable. My point is that this card is a great maindeck choice because of its versatility, but in the sideboard you want to have more spezialized cards like PtE or MM.

Fourth, you say that CB works "beautifully" with the decks mana curve. I doubt this. You have a really lot of lands (23), quite a lot 4cc (7) and only a few 3cc (2). It should still be enough to get CB to work, but it's really not that strong as it is in other decks.

Spur Grappler

[GoldenCid]

I play a 3/3 split of CB and spell snare and it's cool...

[Burr]

hey whats up guys, just got back into mtg and am going to play in a tourny this thursday. I run UWb wish and just want to know what to name vs ichorid with meddling mage? or what should i name against any combo decks with meddling mage? i was never good at the match up

[HPB_Eggo]

For Ichorid, generally Cabal Therapy followed by Dread Return. You should be able to counter the Return without Mage, but Therapy can be annoying as hell.

For ANT, go with Ad Nauseam, especially since everyone seems to be running Saito's list nowadays. If you're looking at a Doomsday or IGG list and they're at low life, you might consider those as well.

For Belcher, go with Empty the Warrens, followed by Belcher, cause you can counter the Belcher a lot easier than the warrens.

For Enchantress, it depends on what point the game is at. If you're dropping it turn two, name Argothian or Presence. Later on, one of Sigil, Mesa, Words of War, or Replenish, rather heavily dependent on your hand and how the game has turned out so far.

That, I think, is all the decent combo decks, and I'm fairly sure those are the right things to name. Feel free to correct me, people.

[Burr]

thanks a lot for the input, really appreciate it.

[damionblackgear]

Vs Enchantress in the late game name replenish first. if they can't recur the win conditions it gets easier. Replenish --> Words --> Sigil. there last out is decking you... Good luck with that.

[Vacrix]

Hanni's list looks pretty dam good. I like how Landstill moved toward Planeswalkers as wincons instead of the old school Decree of Justice.

However, I have a hypothetical question for the Landstill players. I keep asking myself this question whenever I enter the Landstill thread so I figured I would finally ask it. If Mana Drain were unbanned, would you revert back to Decree as the win con? Given that Mana Drain is just a better counterspell, I'd imagine that it would be played instead of counterspell rather than a supplement to counterspell. I know most mana costs in Legacy are low (hence the dominance of CB in the control scene) but Mana Drain can also counter some pretty high CC stuff like Ad Nausuem, Natural Order, Force of Will, etc. Mana Drain allows you to sink all of your mana into something that wins the game quickly. If you get into a counterwar over something, you could have 3 4/4 angels on turn 3 if you Mana Drain a FoW --> Decree.

Or maybe the deck would develop differently?

[Hanni]

If Mana Drain were legal, we'd be running Gifts Ungiven.


First, why do you play Counterspell over Spell Snare? Isn't CB in your list the card that has the purpose that Counterspell has in the standard build (having a solution to pretty much everything in the mid and late game)? Spell Snare seems to be a better choice in this slot because of its speed and its cost. Of course Spell Snare doesn't work that well with CB, but have you considered or tested it? Maybe a split could be an option too.

Counterspell is 2cc and Spell Snare is 1cc primarily. Other than that, Spell Snare is narrow and Counterspell can answer more spells.


Second, is Predict really a strong enough card drawer in Landstill? It gets you one extra card for two mana which is of course not bad, but a card like FoF gets you more cards or a card you really need. Maybe FoF would be to high for your curve, but I don't think that Predict fits in this Deck. It's better in decks like Threshold or Fish that don't have the mana base for FoF.


FoF is 4cc and I need a 2cc spell there for Counterbalance. I've been unsatisfied with Standstill for a long time and that's why I've decided to test Predict out. The change from Standstill to Predict is still in the testing stages so I won't make any comments yet.


Third, what is the point of playing Vindicate in the Sideboard? Of course it is definately a good card in this deck, but why having it in the board too? Its flexibility makes it a good card. So you could board it in against pretty much every deck except combo maybe. I mean, destroying a land for 1BW is pretty bad, destroying a creature or an artifact or an enchantment for that cost too. Just the fact that you have the option to use it as a solution for many problems makes it playable. My point is that this card is a great maindeck choice because of its versatility, but in the sideboard you want to have more spezialized cards like PtE or MM.

Incase 2 MD Vindicates isn't enough and I want to play games 2 and 3 with 3 or 4 of them. What more specialized cards would I bring in when I need to handle more problematic spells like Survival or something? There's other options of course, like Engineered Explosives, but they would essentially be doing the same thing. So what's the point of not running more Vindicates, or at least some other artifact/enchantment answers? I already run PtE and MM in the sideboard...


Fourth, you say that CB works "beautifully" with the decks mana curve. I doubt this. You have a really lot of lands (23), quite a lot 4cc (7) and only a few 3cc (2). It should still be enough to get CB to work, but it's really not that strong as it is in other decks.

It does work beautifully. Once CounterTop is online, I almost always answer 1cc and 2cc spells. I'm unable to effectively answer 3cc like other CounterTop decks, but I can instead effectively answer 4cc spells. While that may not be quite as good, I'm also running other answers like Vindicate and Counterspell to handle the 3cc spells that CounterTop doesn't. My deck doesn't use CounterTop as a crutch, it uses it as just another control tool I have at my disposal in addition to everything else, which just so happens to create card advantage for every spell countered after the first, in a deck that relies on card advantages to win (usually).

Don't compare CounterTop in other decks to CounterTop in Landstill. That's the mistake people always make and why no one appreciates MD Counterbalance in Landstill.

[Vacrix]

If Mana Drain were legal, we'd be running Gifts Ungiven.
Why? Which 4 would you choose? I'm intrigued.

Predict looks ok. Its nice when your opponent is playing Doomsday or Mystical Tutor/Enlightened Tutor. Otherwise, I'd imagine it would be weaker than Standstill. It seems really bad if you are going to name something and then choose your opponent. Your opponent can SDT in response, BS in response or even Fetch in response.

[Hanni]

Why? Which 4 would you choose? I'm intrigued.

Predict looks ok. Its nice when your opponent is playing Doomsday or Mystical Tutor/Enlightened Tutor. Otherwise, I'd imagine it would be weaker than Standstill. It seems really bad if you are going to name something and then choose your opponent. Your opponent can SDT in response, BS in response or even Fetch in response.

Take a look at Vintage. We can't grab Yawgmoth's Will, but there are still a ton of broken piles that a Gifts can singlehandedly get. I think there is some sort of Depths/Hexmage pile that can turn into a game win, among others.

What my point is, if they unbanned a card like Mana Drain, the deck would be capable of running I-win cards like Gifts. Regardless, they won't take Mana Drain off the banned list because it is way too rediculous.

---

Predict is weaker than Standstill in that it only draws you 2 cards instead of 3, but that is made up for by Predict being more castable more often. Standstill can only be dropped on a clean board. If the opponent has aggro in play, it's dead in hand until the board is cleared. What if I need my draw spell to work before the board is clear, i.e I need to draw spells to clear the board? If my opponent runs manlands/Wastelands/Vials, my Standstills are completely dead for that entire matchup.

Standstill only helps when you're in a good or stable position, but doesn't pull you out of lousy ones.

Predict has 10 cards to work with. 4 Brainstorm, 4 Top, 2 Jace. The first 4 are only 1 time effects, so it would have to be properly timed. The last 6 are constant-use effects. What that means is, once I put a Top in play, all of my Predicts will be draw 2's for the rest of the game. With Jace, I can use the fateseal ability to ramp counters and still draw 2 with Predict, or I could simply use the Brainstorm ability and use Predict to dump the worst card in the graveyard while I draw 2.

I would never cast Predict unless I was capable of drawing 2 from it, unless:

I was in such a desperate situation where I simply needed an answer that I didn't have right away, or I lost the game.

Otherwise, it just sits in hand dead until I can get a draw 2 from it. However, Standstill is still going to sit in hand dead more frequently, and for longer durations.

---

To be honest, I was considering going to 3 Predict, cutting the 2 Standstills in the testing version of my deck, and going up to 3 Vindicates. I'm not really sure about this though, and so I want to continue to test the 2/2 split of Predict/Standstill.

[konsultant]

Predict is weaker than Standstill in that it only draws you 2 cards instead of 3, but that is made up for by Predict being more castable more often. Standstill can only be dropped on a clean board. If the opponent has aggro in play, it's dead in hand until the board is cleared. What if I need my draw spell to work before the board is clear, i.e I need to draw spells to clear the board? If my opponent runs manlands/Wastelands/Vials, my Standstills are completely dead for that entire matchup.

Standstill only helps when you're in a good or stable position, but doesn't pull you out of lousy ones.


That is only true in your case because of the absence of Decree. In fact most of the lists posted in this thread recently have seemed so far away from what the fundamentals of Landstill were I would almost make the argument that they should not be in the Landstill thread. Then again perhaps you made that argument for me when you suggested cutting Standstills for Predicts.

The list you have posted looks good as a three color control deck BUT at the point in your developing of the list Standstill becomes a weak card you are no longer playing Landstill you are playing a control deck that happens to be running Standstill because most of the card advantage draw cards in the format are to mana intense to be useful in Legacy.

The ENTIRE point of Landstill as a deck concept is that you can play Standstill at nearly anytime during the match up because you will be able to win the game without breaking Standstill where your opponent cannot allowing you access to a 2 Mana Ancestral that is legal in Legacy and we are allowed to run 4 of.

I apologize for injecting the history lesson but when I come looking for this thread and it isn't even in the deck to beat forum yet clearly Landstill should be able to beat the entire deck to beat forum consistently I have to wonder what the hell has happened. With cross hate for Reanimate hitting Landstills worst match ups IMO Ichorid and Loam Decks, I am wondering why results are not getting put up with this deck anymore.

This is merely speculation but what I am seeing in alot of lists is succumbing to playing cards that are fun and not playing cards that win games. I am also seeing a huge shift away from Landstill as a concept whitch IMO is a primary reason for the general lack of success that seems to be occurring. I'm sure people are winning with the deck but as I scanned through the last few pages I failed to see anybody posting a list after winning an large event with it. Sure playing the new Jace is cool but Fact or Fiction is a far stronger card in any match up I can think of where Standstill could be difficult to cast. Typically anything where Standstill is hard to cast runs Vial and several threats, the same threats that prevent you from casting Standstill will destroy Jace. A huge part of why Landstill worked so well was because of the hybrid on draw spells between FOF and Standstill and how in any match up atleast one or the other is incredibly strong. Without resolving card advantage Landstill is an absolutly aweful deck as you choke up on excessive lands and can have difficulty finding the appropriate cards you require to deal with threats at hand in the time you have, in short Landstill is an absolutly aweful deck when it comes to just blind top decks. Sure you can get lucky rips but without genuine card quantity advantage you will not consistently win with Landstill.

[pater]

The ENTIRE point of Landstill as a deck concept is that you can play Standstill at nearly anytime during the match up because you will be able to win the game without breaking Standstill where your opponent cannot allowing you access to a 2 Mana Ancestral that is legal in Legacy and we are allowed to run 4 of.

Looking over this thread the past couple days, I have to agree with konsultant. Landstill was my deck of choice years ago, and coming back to the game I was surprised to see this deck pushed out of the DtB forum.

The original point of Landstill was always to drop the Standstill on a clean board while still hitting with factories (or Mutavaults, or dare I say, Faerie Conclave) and if anyone had a problem, pop SS to find the FoW you need. Counterbalance seems like a really good fit into the deck, and I would almost say Tops should be MD even without CB, but they shouldn't take away from the concept of the deck. Over time I hope to rebuild a Landstill deck and I would toy with the idea of including 2 CBs and 3 Tops, but the rest of the decklist can't be built AROUND them, they're a handy utility.

I also understand your argument for when you need acceleration and SS is stuck in your hand being useless, but Predicts shouldn't replace Standstill for that reason. The deck should still have Brainstorm/Top/Jace/sometimes FoF to find answers, then once the board is under control again, drop Standstill, rinse, repeat.

Also, have I been reading correctly that Landstill decks now run Horizon Canopy/Crubible? There's another draw engine.

[JamieW89]

I played my first tourney with Landstill (with a suboptimal list) monday and went 4-3. Beating Bant Aggro, Bant CounterTop, Merfolk & Reanimate but losing to Merfolk, something UW Tempo-ish & the Mirror. I'm positive that if I was a better pilot and my deck was a bit better that I could have made top-8 (although I'd have probably faced ANT more, as they dominated the higher tables).
I changed my list, and was looking for some advice about it. The dutch meta is alot of Goblins/Merfolk/ANT and the rest of the field differs. Top tables are dominated by ANT, low tables by merfolk. There's CounterTop, Bant Aggro, The Rock, LandStill, Tempo *****, Dredge, Reanimate, Zoo and more mixed in as well.
The list I am currently testing:

Lands: (23)
4 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
2 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland

Card Advantage & Quality: (11)
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei Divining Top

Counters: (9)
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare

Removal/Board-Control: (13)
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Vindicate
2 Humility
2 Wrath of God

Win Conditions: (4)
3 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Decree of Justice

Sideboard: (15)
4 Engineered Plague (Merfolk/Goblin)
4 Ethersworn Canonist (ANT)
4 Leyline of the Void (Dredge)
3 Diabolic Edict (Reanimate, Dreadstill etc.)


Some points I'm not positive about:
- Are wastelands good without crucible? I pretty much need UUWW(B) asap.. (I'd replace it with Dust Bowl/Tolaria West/Academy Ruins probably)
- Standstill is often not that great due to vial and stuff. Is going back to 3 Standstill better? And should I replace it with a FoF to keep the blue count and the draw count up?
- Should I run a FoF instead of a Top or something as well?
- If I had a Moat would I run it over humility? Or might a 1/1 split be best? Or would you run a different number than 2 of these cards?
- Is 3:2 Counterspell/Spell Snare the proper ratio in this?
- Leyline is good against Dredge and maybe usable against Loam. These are hard matchups, but not that common. Is it worth 4 slots in the sb? Is hardly being able to hardcast it a reason not to play it?
- Are 4 win-conditions enough/too much? And is 3 Elspeth/1 Decree good? I recently added the 1 Decree and I like it so far.
- Would more spot-removal instead of mass removal be better (PtE) with alot of merfolk/goblin?
- Would Extirpates (and maybe 1 Crucible) in the side be better than for example Edicts?

Might edit in some more questions later ^^

[mossivo1986]

Theres no question that the redundancy in landstill has drifted away from folks Geoff. I would go so far as to say that alot of good pilots have dropped landstill as of late because they were sick of meta-gaming with players who have not in fact played the format or understand the logistics of the arch-type. Not everyone, but some.

[pater]

- Are wastelands good without crucible? I pretty much need UUWW(B) asap..

Wastelands are ALWAYS good, but I think running 1 Crubible MD wouldn't be a bad idea. It always works well with Wasteland/Factories.

Maybe instead of 2 Humility you could split 1/1 with Moat, but that's a meta decision.

I would drop 1 Elspeth and 1 EE for 2 PtE, but I'm a fan of 1cc spot-removal (and you have Vindicate). That still leaves you 4 mass removal and 3 win condition (which should be plenty).

[GoldenCid]

I love vindicates. Now that i got 1 Jace 2.0 + 1 Karakas to deal with iona, i think that i cut probably my wishes for 2 vindicates + 1 Stanstill.
I hope to have enought blue cards to set on fow.

[Burr]

How strong do you guys think spell snare is still? I run a 3/3 split between spell snare and counterspell but am thinking about cutting the spell snares going back to 4 counter spell and adding 2 FoF. I run 2 wrath, 3 EE, 2 humility, 4 StP, along with 2 Cunning wish, So i think my board control is pretty strong. How do you guys feel about spell snares lately? I'm starting to feel like I am more inclined to counter spells i normally wouldn't because they are cc2 and that is all spell snare can counter.

[GoldenCid]

How strong do you guys think spell snare is still? I run a 3/3 split between spell snare and counterspell but am thinking about cutting the spell snares going back to 4 counter spell and adding 2 FoF. I run 2 wrath, 3 EE, 2 humility, 4 StP, along with 2 Cunning wish, So i think my board control is pretty strong. How do you guys feel about spell snares lately? I'm starting to feel like I am more inclined to counter spells i normally wouldn't because they are cc2 and that is all spell snare can counter.

It's indeed strong. I run 3 copies. It's a good second turn (1st of yours) full counter. And in many matches could be determinant. It's not necesary to list up what it counters...
Off course in a late game could be a worse topdeck than counterspell.

[Burr]

It's indeed strong. I run 3 copies. It's a good second turn (1st of yours) full counter. And in many matches could be determinant. It's not necesary to list up what it counters...
Off course in a late game could be a worse topdeck than counterspell.

yeah its good on your opponents second turn when you're on the draw, but what can be such a threat that you can't handle with your board control? And of course, you always have force of will. I think 4 FoW and 4 Counterspell should be a good enough counter suite and am prolly going to go ahead and cut my 3 spell snare for +1 CS and +2 FoF. Spell snare can be weak late game while FoF shines mid and late game.

Although can anyone comment if spell snare improves the merfolk/goblin matchup? I haven't played enough of these match ups to fully know.

[Felidae]

Spell Snare can handle turn 2 Exhume against reanimator (even with 2 lands Snare is still Daze prooft), Turn 2/3 Standstill after the previous Vial (maybe I just have bad luck but this happens a lot against me), Chalice @1 and of course Cabal Ritual/ Infernal Tutor (I actually can't see a way to fight ANT game 1 with only 8 counters (even if ANT isn't a good matchup at all if you aren't running CB/Top).

And yes Snare really helps against Merfolk, stopping Lords, Standstills and Silvergil Adepts (basicly their hole card advantage).
I'm not quite surea about Goblins, it depends heavily on their build (i.e. how many Thorn of Amethyst they run in there boards and how many Warren Instigator in there main (running Spell Snare with only 4 Valid targets isn't that great if you have a shitload of removals).

[Hanni]

@ Konsultant:

Times have changed. The format has seen the printing of new and better cards since its original 2005 days.

Threshold, aside from the tempo variants that still run Mongoose, no longer run "threshold" creatures. Of course they were eventually renamed to "CounterTop," although that still doesn't really clarify much since there are so many different spin-off's of U/G/x Goyf + Counterbalance.

The same holds true for Landstill. Decree is just not at the power level of the format anymore. For 4 mana with Decree, you get a 1/1 token that cantrips. That same 4 mana can get you Elspeth. Spending 8+ mana on a win condition just isn't format-breaking these days.

The entire point of Landstill was to play a blue based control deck with an effecient creature removal package. At that time, white was the best splash color, and I still feel that way. The deck had many synergies within itself, like it's ability to Wrath of God while still having creatures via Mishra Factory, to break the symmetry. Or Humility + Factory, Decree + Standstill, etc. The obvious namesake was using Standstill as a draw engine, because 2 mana to draw 3 cards is broken.

The problem nowadays is alot of those cards, like Humility and Decree, are just not powerful enough for their mana cost anymore.

Maybe decks like the one I posted to belong into a new thread. Months back I was actually going to make a primer and new thread for Counterbalance Landstill, but then kinda stopped playing Magic for a while. However, that does not change the fact that for control decks to continue to compete at the top tier in the format, they cannot stay the exact same as they were in 2005. The deck must evolve as every other archtype does with new sets printed and new shifts in the metagame.

Either way, I always feel like I'm beating a dead horse when I post my deck in this thread. I thought maybe this time it would jumpstart a seemingly dead thread, but I guess it's still the same. I'll just have to wait for a Counterbalance/Planeswalker Control thread to get made and then post there.

[Omega]

@Hanni : While I agree that the format has evolved, I still believe Landstill has a place in this format. So far, I believe red splash is the way to go. You get firespout that is 1 turn faster than WOG and solves some aggro problem.

Let's take a look at the DTB
Merfolk, goblin, zoo : All three of these MU gets a boost from more mass removal (in the form of firespout). I'm pretty sure we can hit the 50-50 (and even favorable) with the correct number of removal.

Countertop : I imagine that Landstill still *beat CB deck. NO/Progenitus can be handled via counterspells, WOG, Humility

Survival deck : Limited tournament play suggest that it is not a negative match for us. Counter their survival and the deck is basically a CBish deck.

Ant, reanimator (seems to be more and more popular...) are big problem for us. SB should help us...



so, correct me if I am wrong, but it appears Landstill still has somewhat decent match against most of the top decks. While I agree that our current lists may not be optimal, I feel that going red to get that very positive MU against aggro is a good bet. Without red, I fear that the deck is just having a hard time against combo AND aggro. With red, its having a hard time but only against Combo.


EDIT @ Hanni again :
I am still not convinced by CB/Top. I actually believe that most of the format evolved and can play around it now. However, unlike some more traditional list, I've opted for Sensei's divining top MD. That card is absolutely insane and allows us to abuse Standstill even more. (Blind standstill can backfire from time to time)

[Phoenix]

I agree about the red splash for firespout. At the moment i'm testing the following list:

4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Plains
2 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins
1 Tolaria West

4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Standstill
2 Fact or Fiction

3 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Path to Exile
3 Firespout
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Humility

2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Decree of Justice
1 Crucible of Worlds

Side
3 Meddling Mage
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
1 Firespout
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Ravenous Trap/Faerie Macabre

I still think it needs something more; the main problems are a poor game against reanimator (tried a Karakas main but it was too random) and no outs at all against planetswalker.

Previously i used black so i had diabolic edict and vindicate, but using firespout instead of wog gives you a better game against zoo, goblin and merfolk.. I'm trying to find a better balance, going UWbr makes your manabase too fragile; in this case red would be the 4th colour, used only for firespout, supported only by 2 volcanics. That makes you weak against non-basic hate from goblins, merfolks, etc (and so the decks against which you need firespout).

[RogueMTG]

.."Landstill doesn't look like landstill anymore"...>

I can buy your take on most of that. Pushing Landstill in a direction to optimize Standstill (what a concept!) has enormous potential. And if you're not using/abusing Standstill, you're really not playing Landstill.

Although, it would be really hard to convince me to go back to running FoF instead of Jace. Jace really is that good, games you can't resolve Jace in you weren't resolving FoF in either. He is both virtual and real card advantage, and another way to close the game if it comes to that.

I'm going to try publicly rebuilding my list by walking through my thought processes, anyone feel free to promote or destroy any ideas and the final list:

UWx Landstill, Matchup Perspective
Keep in mind this is all from my experience, yours my differ:

The portion of the metagame that Landstill dominates is Countertop, Bant, Zoo, Survival, and random jank people show up with.

Match-ups that are about even are Goblins, Tempo Decks (though tempo can be extremely player dependent), and other board control decks (Planeswalkers/4c Landstill).

The problem matchups, and what I'm concerned with the most, are Merfolk, Reanimator, Ichorid, Combo, and Lands/Loam decks.

Splash or no? R or B?

Just UW: Improved stability, great against Tempo/Blood Moons/Waste-lock. Sacrifices raw power level/options in the board. In my opinion it's worth it to splash.

Red Splash: I haven't gone this route personally yet, but players that splash red claim to dominate Merfolk with REB and Firespout, but in order to find room they often drop WoG which I feel is a poor decision with all of the Progeniti/Inkwells running around.

Black Splash: Splashing black gives you access to Vindicate, Edict, and Extirpate. The only real draw-back in my opinion is that you're not as strong against Merfolk as the Red splash.


Main Deck
I personally prefer the black splash, with that in mind, this is how I would build the maindeck. Trying to optimize for Standstill, and to dominate the decks we're supposed to:

Lands (23):
4 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
2 Island
2 Plains
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland

Draw/Filtering (10):
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
2 Sensei's Divining Top

Counters (10):
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare

Removal (11):
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Wrath of God
1 Day of Judgment

Win/Tech (5):
2 Decree of Justice
1 Humility
1 Jace 2.0
1 Elsepth

Some general maindeck comments:

The 1ofs... ideally you want to be playing Standstill's, and you want to be doing it early, the 1-ofs are all 4 drop late-game bombs you slam after they have blown your Standstill. Would I rather be playing 2 Humility, 2 Jace, 2 Elspeth? Yes. Is that viable? Probably not. You don't want to get a hand clogged up with 4-drops that laugh at you as you die stuck on 3 lands.

The counter package... I'm still torn between 4/3/3 or just going 4 Force/4 Counterspell, running all hard counters and opening up an additional slot for a Crucible or dubs of a Planeswalker. But I think if you want to get greedy with Standstill, Snare is probably more helpful.

The manabase... is super greedy, but that's the way I like it. For more stability you can cut a Mishra's for a Basic, or cut the Wastelands entirely for 2 basics and a Mutavault.

Sideboard

Now the major issue I see is that in order for the problem match-ups (and there is a lot of them) to become winnable/even we have to board a ton of hate. That's not to say I haven't won game 1's against Merfolk or TES or what have you, but it can be rough. We could pre-board against some of these if we expect them in any kind of serious numbers, but then you're significantly decreasing your ability to dominate the decks you are supposed to dominate.

If we had 20 slots in the board I think Landstill could be a serious force, unfortunately we have to try and squeeze as much overlap into 15 slots as we can.


Merfolk: Merfolk has always plagued me personally, I even lost a match to Merfolk when they started a game down for mis-registering their deck, so it's clear my strategy here has to change. I'm going to take Konsultant's suggestion on this one, it eats up more space in my board, but I think Preacher gets the nod. This doesn't support my "overlap" suggestion, but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do, it's not like you're NOT going to run into Merfolk at any kind of real event.

Combo: IMO Combo is handled pretty well by boarding in counters and hate-bears. I really haven't had any problems with ANT, TES or Belcher post-board.

Reanimator: This is a biggy, I've had huge problems with this matchup, even post board. The best answers I've found have been to bring in more counters and GY hate. Specifically I like Faerie Macabre, it's just too good against Exhume. Admittedly it is sub-par against Ichorid, but where I am Reanimator is way way more popular.

Ichorid: This is not played a lot here, but I would really prefer Crypt, Relic, or something like Leyline to Extirpate or Faerie.

Lands/Loam: Obviously the goal is to shut-down Life from the Loam. Meddling Mage + Extirpate do a decent job. Without the hate this matchup is really a blow-out in their favor.


So with all this in mind, I think I would make the SB look like this:

3 Preacher (Merfolk)
3 Meddling Mage (Lands/Ichorid/Reanimator/Combo)
3 Extirpate (Lands/Ichorid/Reanimator)
3 Faerie Macabre (Lands/Ichorid/Reanimator)
3 Spell Pierce (Reanimator/Ichorid/Combo)


If I'm way off on any of this let me know, at the moment it looks good to me, and I'm going to be putting it to the test.

[Mark Sun]

I'll be at the 5K this weekend sporting a sexy triplet of Preachers.

The one thing I've been resilient to using is Meddling Mage, and as an outsider it gets the nod for Philly. I've actually never used the card before, even when Planeshift was in Standard. But you're right, Ben, Meddling Mage on Life from the Loam, Tendrils of Agony, Show and Tell, (wtf do you name for Ichorid? Breakthrough? Dread Return?) seems really godo right now against our worst matchups. Excuse me for being a newbie on the MM vs. Dredge part.

I had 3 Negate in the SB, really not that much better than Spell Pierce? What about Engineered Plague?


Edit: I currently have something like the following

4 GY Hate (Macabre/Crypt/Relic/etc)
4 Engineered Plague
3 Meddling Mage
3 Negate
1 Path to Exile


Need to find spots for Preachers.

[Phoenix]

Do you really need black lands with that list? You only need them for extirpate; I understand why you may prefer it to Tormod's Crypt, Relic of progenitus or Ravenous Trap. However i would feel more confortable going:
-2 black lands
+2 red lands
-3 preacher
+3 firespout
-3 extirpate
+3 Tormod's Crypt/Relic of progenitus/Ravenous Trap


Red Splash: I haven't gone this route personally yet, but players that splash red claim to dominate Merfolk with REB and Firespout, but in order to find room they often drop WoG which I feel is a poor decision with all of the Progeniti/Inkwells running around.

Black Splash: Splashing black gives you access to Vindicate, Edict, and Extirpate. The only real draw-back in my opinion is that you're not as strong against Merfolk as the Red splash.

Keeping your maindeck and adding firespout to the side should give you enough against Progenitus, leviatan AND merfolk from what you say.

[RogueMTG]

I'll be at the 5K this weekend sporting a sexy triplet of Preachers.

The one thing I've been resilient to using is Meddling Mage, and as an outsider it gets the nod for Philly. I've actually never used the card before, even when Planeshift was in Standard. But you're right, Ben, Meddling Mage on Life from the Loam, Tendrils of Agony, Show and Tell, (wtf do you name for Ichorid? Breakthrough? Dread Return?) seems really godo right now against our worst matchups. Excuse me for being a newbie on the MM vs. Dredge part.

I had 3 Negate in the SB, really not that much better than Spell Pierce? What about Engineered Plague?


Edit: I want to run something like:

4 GY Hate
4 Engineered Plague
3 Meddling Mage
3 Negate
1 Path to Exile


Need to find spots for Preachers.

Man I wish I could make it down to Philly D:. Alas, we just moved last weekend and still have a crap ton of work to do. Maybe I'll say screw it and road trip down for the legacy on Sunday... xD. We'll see.

Against Ichorid I would probably name Cabal Therapy, maybe DR if I was in a tight spot. It varies a lot in every matchup depending on the situation you're in. The card can be a beast if you're familiar with the format, play it like Therapy, only name what beats you.

Negate is fine, I like negate, but I really wanted the faster 1-mana counter against Reanimator + Combo decks, if I had another slot I might roll with a 2/2 split. If you foresee yourself playing a lot of other control decks/mirror matches, Negate will shine.

The problem with Plague is that it's fighting with Preacher for space, and you usually need 2 copies out for it to be really effective. It's better against Goblins as Preacher wouldn't come in against them, but it's probably not as good against Merfolk, though I don't have enough experience with either to say for sure.



Do you really need black lands with that list? You only need them for extirpate; I understand why you may prefer it to Tormod's Crypt, Relic of progenitus or Ravenous Trap. However i would feel more confortable going:
-2 black lands
+2 red lands
-3 preacher
+3 firespout
-3 extirpate
+3 Tormod's Crypt/Relic of progenitus/Ravenous Trap



Keeping your maindeck and adding firespout to the side should give you enough against Progenitus, leviatan AND merfolk from what you say.

It's a possibility, my MD really only has the splash for EE @ 3 which can be relevant.

I'll try that out, it comes down to two points:

Is 3x Meddling Mage and come conditional GY Hate good enough against Lands?
Is Firespout really better than Preacher?

[Mark Sun]

Do it! Road trip! I was so pissed when you and rsaunder both said you guys couldn't make it down, I never venture out of a 4-5 hour range, haha.

That is actually the same dilema I had for Preacher, btw, you hit what I was thinking on the head. Preacher is effective against Merfolk, but not Goblins, and vice versa. I've never stuck an EPlague against Merfolk when it mattered. I'll see if I can test out Spell Pierce before this weekend, no promises on that one, haha. Revised SB:

4 GY Hate
3 Preacher
3 Meddling Mage
3 Spell Pierce
2 Path to Exile (or SP #4, I'm sure 75% sure SP #4 might be the right call for Philly).


The reason I ask is because I dropped the black splash a while ago, but it seems like the right call in this metagame, with Lands, Reanimator, etc. Also, I'm actually running Decree in this version, I got crushed by Merfolk last time for lack of cards to board in and not enough flexibility under Standstill.

[Phoenix]

It's a possibility, my MD really only has the splash for EE @ 3 which can be relevant.

I'll try that out, it comes down to two points:

Is 3x Meddling Mage and come conditional GY Hate good enough against Lands?
Is Firespout really better than Preacher?

Regarding EE@3 red or black makes no difference, btw.

I don't really have a lot of experience against lands, however it's still 9 cards against them; firespout is not only against merfolk but goblins, zoo, other weenies, matchups where you wouldn't side preacher in. And in my meta i see a lot more of them than lands.. It's probably only a question of metagame and personal taste.. :) And btw i should still test more to come up with a tuned list..

[RogueMTG]

Do it! Road trip! I was so pissed when you and rsaunder both said you guys couldn't make it down, I never venture out of a 4-5 hour range, haha.

That is actually the same dilema I had for Preacher, btw, you hit what I was thinking on the head. Preacher is effective against Merfolk, but not Goblins, and vice versa. I've never stuck an EPlague against Merfolk when it mattered. I'll see if I can test out Spell Pierce before this weekend, no promises on that one, haha. Revised SB:

4 GY Hate
3 Preacher
3 Meddling Mage
3 Spell Pierce
2 Path to Exile (or SP #4, I'm sure 75% sure SP #4 might be the right call for Philly).


The reason I ask is because I dropped the black splash a while ago, but it seems like the right call in this metagame, with Lands, Reanimator, etc. Also, I'm actually running Decree in this version, I got crushed by Merfolk last time for lack of cards to board in and not enough flexibility under Standstill.

Ha, we'll see. I'll run it by the lady tonight.

You hit it there w/Merfolk. We need a plan, and Decree can help a lot. I've seen some Merfolk players not board out Standstill's against Landstill, Decree can really punish them for that.




Regarding EE@3 red or black makes no difference, btw.


Well yeah, was just saying that aside from EE, the maindeck is UW so the splash color wouldn't make a difference.



I don't really have a lot of experience against lands, however it's still 9 cards against them; firespout is not only against merfolk but goblins, zoo, other weenies, matchups where you wouldn't side preacher in. And in my meta i see a lot more of them than lands.. It's probably only a question of metagame and personal taste.. :) And btw i should still test more to come up with a tuned list..

Clearly it's more versatile, but I'm more concerned with whats strictly better against Merfolk, I think that'll take me some testing to determine.

[Omega]

With red, I actually believe that you can get a removal bag in the like of :

2 firespout
2 wog/humility
4 stp
3 ee
2 fire/ice (F/I don't have PTE weakness of giving land to opponent, and can something get 2 target for the price of 1, and pitches to FOW)

13 cards are spent on removal. (i usually play about 13+ removal and cut countermagics)
Against aggro, just destroy them until they run out of gas, and beat them with Elspeth. (BTW, elspeth really shines against aggro, we all know that. You force them to overextend, which in turn open them to mass removal!). I believe my MU is close to positive against Merfolk before SB. After, i believe its positive. That's a huge bonus right there. Also, with a package like this, I'm usually capable of beating fast aggro and random aggro.

@RogueMTG
Fighting against Reanimator is hard, I will concede this. However Jace 2.0 and Cunning wish seem to have worked for me before SB (I have 1 bounce as wish target in my sb). Granted, the first game is still very negative, I believe having some outs is not a bad idea. Karakas is another option we can try. It can replace one of the plain (I usually play 2-3 plains)
with black, you seem to gain from your SB some tools to fight against reanimate. I believe you have an advantage over me. However, REB are not to be ignored. They are cheap counters that can hit their cantrips (bs, mystical tutor, careful study and all their counterspells).



Heavy control is practically dead in my meta, so i am not scared of Planeswalker. Besides, that's when my counters are useful. A random 4th color land could solve the planeswalker issue

[Felidae]

If you are going to play the red splash you can easily run REB's instead of Spell Pierce in your Board (+ : more hate Against Merfolk, helps against Reanimator or Ant. - : Doesn't really help against non-bluebased combos, isn't as good as Spell Pierce against Ichorid).
I'm currently running:
3 REB
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Meddling Mage
2 Firespout
2 Negate <- Not sure if Spell Pierce is worth this slot

[pater]

I'm not quite surea about Goblins, it depends heavily on their build (i.e. how many Thorn of Amethyst they run in there boards and how many Warren Instigator in there main (running Spell Snare with only 4 Valid targets isn't that great if you have a shitload of removals).

Piledriver, Weirding, Stingscourger, and post-SB Tinkerer too. Unless you have StP, you'd better counter the Piledriver, and unless you want a Lackey hitting you, countering Weirding or scourger T2 is almost a must.

I'm on the fence about Snare too, I'd probably run 2 or 3 main and use 'em for FoW if nothing else, then side 'em if they're useless.

[RogueMTG]

Piledriver, Weirding, Stingscourger, and post-SB Tinkerer too. Unless you have StP, you'd better counter the Piledriver, and unless you want a Lackey hitting you, countering Weirding or scourger T2 is almost a must.

I'm on the fence about Snare too, I'd probably run 2 or 3 main and use 'em for FoW if nothing else, then side 'em if they're useless.

Um...*head scratch* Warren Wierding and Stingscourger don't really do anything to us. I guess Weirding would be annoying if they swung with Lackey and you activated a Factory to block, but if this is turn 2 and you just activated Factory you aren't going to have U up to Spell Snare it anyway...

If you really are dying for a target for snare against gobos, post-board Price of Progress can wreck you if you don't consider it. Generally speaking though Spell Snare is not very good against Goblins.

Snare has been a pretty "meh" card for me these days, it's extremely match-up dependent, so sometimes it's just dead. In the past few tournaments I've played I ran 4 Force/4 Counterspell as my MD counter package cutting Snare completely and I didn't really miss it too much. Probably would have helped against Merfolk though.

Having only hard counters did feel pretty good, but the UU cost could sometimes be a hindrance, I'm still debating going back to a 3/3 split or not.

[konsultant]

@ Konsultant:

Times have changed. The format has seen the printing of new and better cards since its original 2005 days.

Threshold, aside from the tempo variants that still run Mongoose, no longer run "threshold" creatures. Of course they were eventually renamed to "CounterTop," although that still doesn't really clarify much since there are so many different spin-off's of U/G/x Goyf + Counterbalance.

The same holds true for Landstill. Decree is just not at the power level of the format anymore. For 4 mana with Decree, you get a 1/1 token that cantrips. That same 4 mana can get you Elspeth. Spending 8+ mana on a win condition just isn't format-breaking these days.

The entire point of Landstill was to play a blue based control deck with an effecient creature removal package. At that time, white was the best splash color, and I still feel that way. The deck had many synergies within itself, like it's ability to Wrath of God while still having creatures via Mishra Factory, to break the symmetry. Or Humility + Factory, Decree + Standstill, etc. The obvious namesake was using Standstill as a draw engine, because 2 mana to draw 3 cards is broken.

The problem nowadays is alot of those cards, like Humility and Decree, are just not powerful enough for their mana cost anymore.

Maybe decks like the one I posted to belong into a new thread. Months back I was actually going to make a primer and new thread for Counterbalance Landstill, but then kinda stopped playing Magic for a while. However, that does not change the fact that for control decks to continue to compete at the top tier in the format, they cannot stay the exact same as they were in 2005. The deck must evolve as every other archtype does with new sets printed and new shifts in the metagame.

Either way, I always feel like I'm beating a dead horse when I post my deck in this thread. I thought maybe this time it would jumpstart a seemingly dead thread, but I guess it's still the same. I'll just have to wait for a Counterbalance/Planeswalker Control thread to get made and then post there.

@Hanni. I do not discredit your list nor did I say that it was not a solid list. I am glad you see my primary point was that this may no longer be the correct thread to post it in. My second point may have missed though. Yes the deck has evolved from what it's original conception was as obvioulsy every deck has to. My point was INSTEAD of evolving LANDSTILL as a theory what I am seeing is people evolving it into a 3 color control deck. The difference may seem small but in actuality it is huge. The primary goal behind Landstill is to win through card advantage that is typically generated off of Standstills. Your rule of thumb, make sure you don't lose the game, next make sure you draw alot more cards then your opponent and lastly if the list is built correctly you will win through inevitablility.

Here is where things went wrong IMO. When Standstill was becoming a liability instead of making Standstill better and playing cards that would allow Standstill to be cast no matter what, instead the focus became cramming in additional counters and attrition based removal and losing sight on the critical importance of card advantage.

For example, Merfolk becomes a very popular deck. This is a problem for us because Standstill is difficult to play, they have wastes, vials, lords and mutavaults. While everyone was cramming in plagues and humility and moat even though most builds at the time were green with grip in sb and boarding out standstills unable to figure out why they were losing I instead focused on card advantage and sb Preachers and Path's and most definetly left all my standstills in the deck. Any Merfolk player that had the unfortunate luck of running into my build at that time absolutly boarded out standstill against me because between decree (card advantage mid-late game) and Preacher (retarded card advantage against decks with no outs for him) the standstills became a l;iability to the merfolk player and were a win con for me like they should be. If I am packing large amounts of hate for Ichorid i'll even leave standstill in against them and that is really the only match up where standstill is truly a weak card. That match up is also the reason I went to the 3-3 split with fof.

Yes Counterbalance can generate card advantage but it is an entirely differnent type of card advantage and can be ansered after resolution unlike standstill. (I will safely say I have not seen seal of cleansing in years and you should be able to stop pridemage)

[gustha]

Uhm. Reanimator? Ant? Aggroloam? (Thopter combo, bu that's less a concern). I may agree with all of your points, and in fact I almost entirely do. But it seems to me that ichorid is not the only Mu in which standstill is a weak card. And alternatively, those decks dominated and still dominate the format (first merfolk, then ant, then reanimator, and so on, at least here in italy).

[Shawn]

Standstill is amazing against Aggro Loam, I would never board it out against them. They have few threats, and I haven't come into a situation where it wasn't a draw 3 unless they had Seismic Assault on board. I also wouldn't take it out against Storm.

[gustha]

I don't take them out against storm either, while against loam I'm more concerned on wastelock, but I usually keep 1-2 copies in. I would have better said: "landstill is weak". The concept (sorry if I did't explained it well it's a bit late here ^^) is that the format has seen increasing popularity and dominance of decks which are terrible Mu's for landstill, all mixed up together. Merfolk, and reanimator, and ant and such all require specific focus when building landstill; this would not be a bad thing if one knows how to build accordingly. This sunday merfolk? Red splash, got it. This sunday ant? Better not playing landstill... But we came to a point when EVERY tournament we have to face merfolk AND reanimator AND ant... landstill as a philosophy, it seems to me, can't cover such a wide area. And that's why people shifted away towards 3c control I think, more than evolving landstill, as konsultant said, and I believe this is true. Or simply put the deck aside. (And, as in my case, couldn't find another deck to enjoy the "inevitability" feeling which landstill gives and almost quit playing magic, putting the blame on his girlfriend instead of admitting the truth to himslef ^^)

[rockout]

If it makes you guys feel better I still call my control deck landstill for the nostalgia factor. It doesn't run decree or vindicate or wish for that matter but it continues to run standstill and mishra's just with a better matchups against the format running red to combat all the annoying stuff.

[konsultant]

Uhm. Reanimator? Ant? Aggroloam? (Thopter combo, bu that's less a concern). I may agree with all of your points, and in fact I almost entirely do. But it seems to me that ichorid is not the only Mu in which standstill is a weak card. And alternatively, those decks dominated and still dominate the format (first merfolk, then ant, then reanimator, and so on, at least here in italy).

I thank you completely for demonstrating my point right here. Whereas you are concerned about not being able to cast Standstill in match up's I consider all to be favorable granted they take careful play and some preparation in deck building, Standstill should be your ace in the hole against all of them. Both Reanimate and Ant have zero card quantity advantage meaning the cards from a single Standstill (assuming your list is well designed) are more likely than not going to be more than you need to stop them from winning. Would I tap out turn two to drop a Standstill against either of them, probably not but I would def drop it turn 4 or the most likely answer the turn after they try and go off. Here is the thing, they are combo decks and you are GOING TO HAVE TO stop them from comboing or you will lose. They are going to try and do something at some point in the game. If you can stop them and drop Standstillt the turn after I can pretty much say unless you are retarded you should probably win the game. If you don't have them in the deck you are trying to out top deck a combo deck with a much better card quality engine than Landstill has and you will probably lose. If I have any wisdom at all to impart from my years with developing this deck it would be this: You absolutly must resolve card advantage against your opponent inorder to CONSISTENTLY win, you cannot rely on top decks with Landstill as our excessive land count while absolutly needed is a hindrence when it comes down to statistics and the top deck race. That same high land count is also critical as it reduces the number of mulligans we may be forced to make contributing once again to card quantity advantage

Consider this, If you feel Standstill is not playable against a certain deck focus on exactly what circumstances prevent you from playing Standstill. The trick is to then determine a way to play Standstill WHILE those same circumstances that were preventing you from playing it before ARE still in play. Im gonna use my Merfolk example again as it was fairly recent and I think I may have single handedly doubled the value of Preachers from 2$ to $4 by being creative.

My problem was UG Merfolk, need to play Standstills but they have Vial, Goyf, Mutavault, Lord of Atlantis, Wasteland, 8 daze effects plus Force on top of the usual relevant horde creatures from any aggro deck. I isolated my focus, Vial would as always need to be stopped via Force or Explosives as Humility was to weak due to Grip in the SB plus opposing counter magic. All Force's and EE were thus saved unless I would lose the game otherwise for the single purpose of stopping Vial. Lord of Atlantis would need to not be allowed in play as Mutavaults would be unblockable and Standstill would be very risky to play. Add Path to SB and save all single mana targeting removal (STP,PTE) would be saved for Lord as it is the most reliable given their counter package being mainly mana denial based. By removing Vial and Lord from the overall equation I am now focusing on Goyf, Mutavault, Waste and Counter Magic. All factors that can be a hindrence to dropping Standstill but definetly not factors that would make me not want to have Standstill in the deck. After isolating the problem it becomes clear, find a card that can disrupt their general horde of creatures while producing card advantage on my side. Factor in their mana disruption and so the Ideal answer should be white as basic plains are a must against Merfolk as it cast all of my removal spells. Factor in their lack of creature removal and your answer becomes very clear Preacher. Granted I have played the game since Unlimited and Arabian Nights were on store shelves and am familiar with such older cards but my point is still there. Instead of siding out Standstills for the almost guarenteed loss I made Standstill a strong card and exploited their weakness. Preacher has actually turned out to be very strong against any aggo deck that does not run removal and has been a huge help against Affinity whitch is a match up I refuse to dedicate cards to.



I am making all of these points because I truly believe Landstill as a theory is not a dead or outdated concept. I believe it is time for some creativity. It is time to stop changing 1-3 slots here or there or switching one attrition removal spell for a different attrition removal spell. I am working on some things and if I get results from them then I shall post them. I compliment those that have tried a red splash and have actually made some overhauls to the deck although I personally do not feel that red is needed but I would say it is a step in the correct direction to try new concepts.