[Deck] UW(x) Landstill [Archive] - Page 18

wolfstorm

09-09-2010, 07:31 PM

I gave her the hands down immediately, but I am rethinking her spot again in UWx landstill.

Trends that I observed with Elspeth 1.0 when playing landstill:
1) Great staller against aggro/goyfs. If you're faced against 1 creature, you can keep chumping and digging for answers. However, when faced against 2 or more creatures, she becomes a couple of Fogs as your opponents whittle her down.
2) Wins games (FAST, +3/+3 flying is one of the best)
3) Ultimate is relevant but only used about 10% in most games. I usually just race with +3/+3. Landstill doesn't have a ton of time in most matchups anyway.

Comparing with Elspeth 2.0 on the numbered points:
1) E2.0 is perhaps an even better staller, generating 3 creatures to chump. Her +2 ability can net you some life to stabilize, but it's not too synergistic with factories (involves tapping mana to activate, and sometimes you may need to leave mana untapped. However, noting that E2.0 is 5cmc, by then you should be able to free some mana to use her +2 ability). The only issue with E2.0 is that if you want to ramp her loyalty, you're not getting much by playing landstill even with Factories. You really want to use her -2 first to stabilize a board position, and start stabilizing your life total with her +2 to make it beneficial. Unless you're planning on blowing the board or really need 2-4 life, her first ability is not strong in Landstill until after her -2 has been used. This is the only design flaw I see her if she's played in Landstill.
2) Wins games SLOW. 1/1 soldiers aint too good compared to 4/4 flying ones or 5/5 flying factories. Also NOTE that since it's a -2 ability to generate tokens, you can't spam it unlike E1.0 where you just keep spamming 1/1s or flying attackers. E2.0 will be a more dominant board generator while E1.0 is a more aggresive card. However, three 1/1 soldiers is perhaps much more relevant in most situations in Landstill when faced against aggro, just 1 activation of this will buy about 2-3 turns, and this is huge for a control deck to stabilize.
3) Ultimate is much more relevant in Landstill than E1.0's. Re-usable disk is huge. Not to mention that unlike Disk, she cannot be gripped so she presents a big threat. Either your opponents overextends into counterspell-removal to kill her or they stall with their board, in both situations you win more.

From a brief analysis, we can see how much more defensive a card E2.0 is compared to E1.0, and personally I think this is the selling point of the card in Landstill. Landstill usually requires a defensive strategy before gaining a position to win. For 1 mana more, E2.0 covers much more defense than E1.0. I personally think this is a worthy consideration in Landstill. I personally think the split 3 Jace2.0 and 2 Elspeth 2.0 is great on the curve. Perhaps the 4cc,5cc bombs will be something like:

3 Jace 2.0
2 4cc bombs (FoF/Humility/WoG)
2 Elsepth 2.0

The nice thing about 2.0 is that she fits as a flex slot for traditional slots of Decree and WoG/Disk. I feel that she's a hybrid utility card of Decree + WoG mixed together. The power of Planeswalkers in Landstill is their plethora of abilities that gives the deck additional 'interaction' advantage. Many times a Landstill player can win on the back of a Planeswalker even at a board/card disadvantage because the planeswalker creates more interaction for the landstill players. Instead of just the opponents interacting with the landstill player's hands/life/board, they are now forced to dedicate their resources to answering the planeswalker, and since these planeswalkers dont die easy, it buys time for the Landstill player to set up strategies against those decks. E2.0 to me is potential move towards diversifying strategy interaction and minimizing redundant card slots (she combines effects of E1.0/Decree/Disk all in 1 card).

The important trend to note for which Planeswalkers make it into Landstill are:
1) relevant abilities that defend the player (Elspeth has 1/1 soldiers, Jace 2.0 has bounce or BS into removal/answers, Ajani has Helix and Icy ability)
2) Ultimates that gains a huge board advantage or win games (Elsepth 1.0 not too relevant since it requires another card to abuse this advantage, Ajani ggnub, Jace 2.0 ggfnub)
3) Ease of casting (cmc): E1.0, J2.0, Ajani are all 4cmc. J1.0 was solely played in older lists because it came down much faster.

E2.0 has the strong points for being a contender based on 1), 2). The only issue is 3). However, if we honestly ask ourselves, how many times have we almost won a game on turn 20 but failed in the end because we still did not stabilize? I feel E2.0 not only gives good board position to stabilize with her -2, but she restores the important hp boost with a 2-6pt life gain (on average) from her +2, and her ultimate just resets the board and we all know how resetting the board favors a victory for the landstill player. Her ultimate also hits anything: Artifacts, planeswalkers, enchantments, so it's an answer against any deck in Legacy: enchantress/stax/countertop/progenitus/emrakul etc. I just see her as a WoG on a Planeswalker with two very relevant abilities in the strategies of LAndstill.

Another thing to note that E2.0's ultimate is not cool with J2.0 but her -2 ability really makes her J2.0's best friend.

Elspeth 2.0 actually races faster than Elspeth 1.0 on a clear board btw. -2 +2 -2 -2 = 1 turn faster than 1.0

GoldenCid

09-11-2010, 06:22 PM

Leaving a side, for a while, Elspeth 2.0: Has anybody tested Ghastly Demise as a 2 off? It would be in replace of PtE. I dislike the land drop that it gives to oponent. Off course i'm talking about the UWb version.

Felidae

09-12-2010, 05:24 AM

There are a couple of things that I really don't like about Demise:
-it doesn't target Tombstalker
-it requires black, a manasource that you usually don't have acces to, in the early
-it requires at least 5 cards in the yard to take out an early Tarmogoyf

I dislike the landdrop of PtE, too, but as a 2off it is still better then Demise in my eyes.
Actually I'd rather consider to play Diabolic Edict and a second USea befor I'm going to play Demise.

GGoober

09-13-2010, 11:06 AM

Took top 4 (4-0-1) split draw into Top 8 and split Top 4 at my local meta.

List I played:
4 Strand
2 Delta
1 Swamp (Should have been a scrubland against choke)
2 Plains
2 Island
2 Seas
3 Tundra
3 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
4 Factory

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
2 Cunning Wish
2 Isochron Scepter

1 ETutor
2 Chant
4 Counterspell
4 FoW
4 StP
3 EE
1 Humility
1 Crucible
2 Elspeth
3 Jace

SB:
3 EPlague
3 Extirpate
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Dismantling Blow
3 Negate (Super solid choice against control/enchantress/combo if you play the scepter build)
1 ETutor
1 Path
cant rmb last slot

Can't rmb all my matchups but I know all my game-1s were CRAZY!

Match 1: Jeff with Eva Green
I hate suicide/Land-D decks and eva really does a good job hurting landstill. Jeff's one of the best players in our group so this one's tough. He leads off with a ritual into a janky 1BB 4/4 that gets killed by Elspeth token. Surprisingly that dude gets in there like our classic Negator against control as he disrupts my hand and manabase. I stabilize maintaining card parity at about 5 life when I dropped Humility. We proceed to go card for card: his creatures my removal until I rip a Jace. Being a good player, Jeff sandbags his cards and drops 3 creatures turn after turn, putting the pressure. The following situation over the next ?10 turns were:

He drops 2 creatures (3 creatures on board), I remove a creature, drop Standstill bounce with Jace, maintaining 1 creature with me having a Factory to block (He had wasted 3 Factories so if he drew the 4th Waste for Factory I'd be dead any moment). This series of play repeats itself twice as I chain into Standstill + Removal. So Jace + 1 removal + 1 Standstill won me the game, stabilizing me at 1 health. It was funny I had to hard cast FoW on Gatekeepers twice just so that he only has 1 creature on board. He did draw too many lands so I was lucky he was not applying as much pressure as Eva could

Game 2: -1 Counterspell, -4 Standstill, +3 Negate, +1Path, +1ETutor
My mistake in my sideboarding was: should have kept at least 1 Standstill in. I forgot how I deboarded and Etutor turn 1 for a Standstill but could not find any, so I picked up an EE, that you know was obviously discarded later. That damned 1BB 4/4 got in there again...

Game 3: went to time since game 1 was epic and took forever. Jeff blames me for the draw I blame him for not killing me Game 1!

Match 2: Jon with Enchantress
Why do I get paired against the most annoying matchups that take 2 hours?

Game 1: Epic game. I won't describe every detail but it involves me decking the Enchantress. Towards the end, he could win with Words of War which I counterspelled. He replenishes and I cunnign-wish->Extirpate on Words of War: Hot! He has a couple of Angel tokens that can kill me but I have two EE and a Chant on a stick (I can't target him since he has Leyline of Sanctity in play but I can still kick to fog). He had a Solitary Confinement out and 2 cards in library and 7 cards in hand. I forgot that he won't deck in awhile. So to play safe, I EEed for 3 to get rid of the Confinement, and he died over 2 turns to decking.

Game 2: He mulled to a risky 1 non-basic and leads it off with a Utopia Sprawl. Wasteland hits the land and he was without lands for 3 turns. Jace + Elspeth + Standstill curved out on me and gg.

Match 3: Aggro Loam
Supposedly a tough matchup but for some reason he's playing quite a subpar list. He REBs my Standstill and I get annoyed. Who plays REB maindeck in aggro loam with Chalices??? Who plays REB in aggro loam??

Anyway, he gets the loam going over turns not putting out any threats so I was very happy. As much as I hate the loam engine ongoing, I hate it more when there's a threat on board. He tells me that he does not have goyfs in deck so I'm relieved that it's going to be much favorable for me.

Both game 1/2s involve Jace coming in and winning the game, obviously I'm smart enough to keep FoW reserved on Seismic Assault and not waste them on creatures like a noob control player.

Match 4: Drew with Imperial Recruiter
Game 1: Drewlius on the IR thread on the Source, one of the important figures on tweaking and perfecting the deck, always a pleasure to play against a good friend, and to fight against the hated Blood Moons. He resolved Magus and Blood Mooon. Sweet, and obviously my EEs don't get drawn so this game starts getting epic from here.

The highlight was me ripping a Scepter off the top of my deck like a champ (I had Chant in hand) and 1 basic plains. So I scepter-chanted him out. NOW: This is where you should not concede a matchup even if it seems loseable. Drew did not concede where others would and proceeded to naturally grind me with the grindstone in play (I got the Chant-lock right before he could play Painter after recruiting it). So naturally grinding me, he hits my EEs in my yard :( I have not seen StP at all this game and one grindstone grinded 12 blue cards, leaving me with 4 cards left in the library. Knowing what's left in my deck, I still had a brief hope before losing. It was tough as hell to play under moon since my only hope on surviving is to get my Ruins/EE recursion going so I won't deck myself but Ruins was locked under both Blood Moon and Magus.

I thought for awhile and figured I had an out. I just have to hope that he doesn't have REB against my Wish, which he didn't. So the plan goes:
1) Crucible returning basic Island from Graveyard
2) play Island Cunning Wish->Dismantling Blow hit Blood Moon
3) StP Magus, start recurring EE@1 and not die to decking
4) Drew scoops.

Epic game 1 again, obviously took a god-damn long time

Game 2: He got the moon going again, but Scepter is just that good against Moon.
I got a StP on a Scepter, but he had quite the nutty hand. He plays around Scepter on StP and has double blast in hand to blast the Scepter and have enough mana to grind me with Painter in play.

I let the Painter resolve since I have 2 FoW (no blue cards in hand). If he paints blue, I will have 2 FoW counters in hand pitching Factory and Ruins in hand while having StP/Scepter on board to deal with the Painter. He attempts to blast my Scepter, I FoWed, he blast, I FoWed, and I won this. Was a tight matchup and surprisingly I functioned with entirely colorless mana that game against a good Imperial Painter draw. This is where Scepter would have helped a tough matchup where classical Landstill has to battle through Blood Moons with much more effort.

Match 5: Jeremy with Bant Aggro and we drew into Top8.
I think this is quite a favorable matchup for me but I wanted to do some trading :D

Match 6 (Top 8): Jeff with Eva again:
Why do I have to play against Sinkhole/Waste/Hymn again? Ugh

Game 1: 1BB 4/4 attempts to resolve, I plow it cause I hate him now. His disruption got in there and roflstomped me bad.

Game 2: I won this but can't rmb why, probably just from stabilizing and with Jace.

Game 3: 3 Standstills MD because it's just that good at stabilizing.
This game was a very close one too. I can't rmb too much but that annoying 1BB 4/4 sticks in play as I removed/countered the more troublesome threats (Tstalkers, hippie, goyfs). He hymns in an attempt to discard my Elspeth and I rip lands like pro against his Land-D and hymn misses Elspeth. Elspeth comes in, stalls the game, he draws worse than me since he's not playing blue and I won it after using Elspeth's ultimate and getting in with 6/6 flying factory (double factory to pump).

Top 4: We split Top 4 (Me: UWb Scepterstill, Jeremy: Bant Aggro, ugh can't rmb the other two decks).

Highlights:
- 61 cards as always cause I'm a noob (but really, the 24th land as 61st card has really smoothed my land draws).
- 1 Etutor acting as 5th Standstill, 4th EE, 2nd Humilty, 2nd Crucible, 3rd Scepter. Has been solid maindeck but I would hate to have 2 Etutor MD. Although in a lot of tougher matchups e.g. combo/enchantress I boarded the 2nd ETutor MD and it's important. ETutor MD is not too ideal due to card disadvantage but in matchups where you need the speed to get the relevant items (EE, Scepter), this is where it shines.
- Last week I lost to reanimator after going 4-0 undefeated into top4, made me realize how important Humility was. Also, I had some tough time with no WoG/Humility MD. It's not really needed anymore but I think Humility still steals a ton of games.
- When Elspeth 2 comes out, I will be testing her heavily. Out of most matchups I played, I feel that her 5cmc is still justifiable except against the Suicide decks packing WAY too much Land-D. Stifle is not a huge problem since I can play arond it, but not sinkholes. Many times I was wishing Elspeth 1 dropped more than 1 token so that I can have more room for strategies. When you can only chump 1 Goyf at a time, there is a huge risk of your opponents drawing a 2nd creature and just sealing the game. I was lucky enough that this didn't happen to me too often. I feel the main selling point of playing E2.0 in Landstill is that she holds herself and yourself well without any secondary cards. Elspeth 1 is superior if you can pair her up with a card e.g. StP/Disk/Wrath/Humility, but without any of these, she is weak in stabilizing with her 1/1 soldier. E2.0 will not only buy 3 turns worth of E1.0's 1/1 soliders, she will also stabilize about 4-6 life in the process. All this is huge, and her ultimate is the main reason why I would play her. I'm excited to test her, and I think she'll be in a much more defensive and controllish-Landstill build. Although I am working on a personal control deck that may turn out to fit my playstyle a little more. Not sure yet though, I have yet to find a control deck that fits my playstyle that's better than Landstill.

P.S.
How do I convince a stubborn friend that Landstill has a favorable matchup against Countertop? And I'm not talking about aggro Countertop (Bant, NO). Talking about the Countertop that runs like 6-8 win-conditions (Goyf, Jace, Cliques). It's obvious for us since their creature win-cons are dead to our massive removal, and EE takes care of Countertop easily. With such a deck not applying much pressure, I don't see how it's not a favorable MU for us. The Bant/NO Countertop might be problematic though. It's just one of those friends who have the false believe that Countertop is THE best deck in Legacy. As far as I know, this is not Standard with any best deck. This is an awesome format with lots of diversity in Top8, sometimes janky homebrew decks that eventualy become established decks.

ChiiMagic

09-13-2010, 11:58 AM

Crz87,
Nice report. Scepter SMASHES blood moon and company.
As for your question about how to convince your friend. You can either beat the hell out of the countertop junk with EEs, OR you can just.let him keep thinking that way and prey on his deck in tournaments. Either way, have fun with your scepters!

GGoober

09-13-2010, 12:58 PM

Yeah out of perhaps 20 games I played, Scepter was bad in 1-2 of them (i.e. having nothing to imprint). Even imprinting Brainstorm on a Scepter felt good, netting a good card every turn until it is removed.

I personally find aggro loam and eva-greenish decks the most difficult matchups with this decklist.

Do you feel that Scepterstill warrants its own thread? I think the bulk of the deck is still landstill-based so it should belong here, but I feel that only a few people are playing it and it's not deserving enough attention despite being successful in the meta at the moment (from your results and my own personal small tourneys 10-20 people) and seems to be pretty strong 50-50 against game1s in the metafield.

You might want to start a thread and primer if you feel it needs attention and recognition of a different form of Landstill. I'm at least an advocate of it, although I might not play it if I find a more comfortable shell. There are some complaints with the playstyle of the deck that I dislike (i.e. sometimes having to rely on Scepter-Chant to stabilize because those slots can be filled with other bombs that solve certain problems, but I do attest that Scepter-Chant solves those problem just as well, but in a more delaying-strategy than a solve-the-problem-not-the-symptoms manner).

ChiiMagic

09-13-2010, 05:24 PM

Eh, I would probably say that it doesn't deserve its own thread because I consider it a Landstill deck above all else. During certain swings in the metagame I have certainly considered just swapping out Scepters, Chants, and Fire/Ice, for more traditional Landstill elements and cutting red for black, like you've done. I think it's just a Landstill deck with an unexpected package unlike the usual angle of Humility and WOG and such.
Which brings me to my next point: the ridiculous numbers everybody I know put up with the deck, yet so few people seem willing to pick it up. It's never really bothered me because it always allowed me to run under the radar and encounter little to no hate because of it. It's just an interesting observation my friends and I have laughed about for the past few years while we clean up local tourneys with the deck. It's probably just differing play styles that keep people away from the deck just like it's my play style that makes me want to desire to play this and next to nothing else. (I'll be honest though, I've picked up Doomsday from time to time for the surprise factor.)

abraxas

09-13-2010, 05:40 PM

Which brings me to my next point: the ridiculous numbers everybody I know put up with the deck, yet so few people seem willing to pick it up. It's never really bothered me because it always allowed me to run under the radar and encounter little to no hate because of it. It's just an interesting observation my friends and I have laughed about for the past few years while we clean up local tourneys with the deck. It's probably just differing play styles that keep people away from the deck just like it's my play style that makes me want to desire to play this and next to nothing else. (I'll be honest though, I've picked up Doomsday from time to time for the surprise factor.)

I don't play U/W/x Landstill but U/B/g Landstill, but regardless I've experienced the same reactions since I built it last month: People surprised I didn't pick up one of the many aggro or combo decks that are more popular, and asking "Why do you want to play THAT deck?" in that cocky tone of voice. Since no one plays Landstill really, there's no presence in Top 8's relative to the amount of T8's you see by other decks. Yet it is insanely strong with only a few bad match ups that aren't too terrible.

The number of people who like to goldfish or play dudes hoping to win, far outnumber the amount of people who enjoy playing reactive style decks that enjoy the long game.

GGoober

09-13-2010, 06:49 PM

Yupp I agree, Landstill has fallen off the radar and the common people who don't engage in these decks scream out "Countertop is the best deck in the format", and I chuckle to myself.

I do agree that Countertop is the best performing deck in terms of matchups against various forms of decks. It is also much easier to play than other decks. Countertop is stressful but playing it correctly ain't too hard. Decks without the benefit of such win-easy games strategies e.g. Landstill (control deck that doesn't rely on a win-engine like Countertop) has a much higher learning curve.

It's not for me to say that Landstill is a tough deck to master, that's just the bare facts. From underperforming with the deck months/years ago to recently doing well, all I can say is that I have finally understood the important elements of control: Not everything needs to be FoW'd, countered, removed etc. Everything in a pure control deck without cheap-wins (countertop lol) involves a lot of futuresight and planning, knowing the matchup and opponents, weighing the costs and benefits on letting certain spells resolved to be dealt with later, roughly calculating the chances you draw into future answers/removals. Each decision costs you. Some decisions are pretty straightfoward: plow that lackey, EE a board of 1/1s, but others involve a much tougher choice.

I think the main barrier currently to playing Landstill is the fact that it's a tough deck to master, and there isn't really a good netdeck list out there. The UBg versions have somewhat streamlined, while the UWx versions are still in the fluid zone. Personally I find the fluidity of UWx a big attraction. I have been appealed by UBg to test out the raw power of Pernicious Deed and 4 Jace, but I feel that all in all, playing UWx build tends to teach me a lot more about control in the format. These lessons also tend to let me experiment some form of personal control decks (most of them being failures, still trying hard to work a 27 land Maze + Mox diamond control deck in, not working out but a list seems to be brewing up with Elspeth 2).

And in all honesty, Landstill is a great deck in today's format. We are no longer plagued by once-popular suicide decks, and most decks have slowed down by 0.5-1turn, making Counterspell much more relevant and powerful than before. The slowing down of combo by 0.5-1 turn also gives the deck a much more favorable position in a big meta. I used to be scared of bringing Landstill in my local tourney due to combo game 1 and having yet the risk to lose game 2/3 since it is just not as fast as countertop decks packing Dazes. However the format slowing down just that little is a huge boost to this deck, and its diversity of answers and strong 50/50 matchup really makes it a competitive choice for tournaments. The only issue holding back is: "Why do I have to play Landstill, a steep learning curve deck, when I can play other decks that easily place well without that much effort?"

And the control players that do play Landstill know why they play the deck: when played correctly, you shore up most 50/50 matchups to at least 60/40. And you would also probably say "Because creatures suck and I like the challenge to stabilize, and dominate with sheer card and board advantage, and crush your dreams when you thought you would win by hitting me down to 1 life, or close to decking me"

lol

HAVE HEART

09-13-2010, 07:43 PM

The reason Landstill is not played more (in my opinion) is because there are some hands/series of draws that will just not win against certain matchups/lines of play. Since it is the most reactive deck in the format, digging for answers is a must, but sometimes the answer is not found on top. I will be playing Landstill in every tournament I take seriously for the foreseeable future, but I also understand why others are not playing it. Sometimes it is just nice to force your opponent to "have it," and when they do not, that is a free win. Landstill pretty much does not have that going for it.

Shawn

09-13-2010, 10:40 PM

@cr87

Congrats on the top 8! However, I disagree with your boarding plan against Eva Green, however:

Game 2: -1 Counterspell, -4 Standstill, +3 Negate, +1Path, +1ETutor

Why not take out Wish instead of Standstill if you are bringing in Path and Enlightened Tutor? Wish is extremely slow against them and only has one decent target after your boarding plans in the form of Diabolic Edict. Dismantling Blow can answer Choke if they play it, but 3+3 mana is hard to get against Choke, and even harder with their Sinkholes and Wastelands.

Also, Standstill is insane against them, as they generally play out a single threat at a time and they generally don't come down in the at the first few turns of the game, (they want to be playing discard or LD at this phase) so turn two or three Standstill is very achievable.

Edit - Also, Sensei's Divining Top is absurd against Suicide decks if you run into a lot of them.

GGoober

09-14-2010, 02:50 AM

Yupp I did board out wishes obviously, it's way too slow and nothing much to hate. I actually brought in +3 Negate, -1 Counterspell due to the UU being tough against them.

In the past I ran the 2 Top configuration and that really did best against Suicide decks, but since I'm not expecting much suicide decks (only 1 deck in my meta, and in general suicide won't be too popular in today's meta, i'm playing without tops).

@Have Heart: you hit the heart of the problem: Landstill just doesn't have the oops I win factor. However, I tend to disagree. I believe that all the 4cc bombs in Landstill are an oops-I-win factor. Ever since the printing of Planeswalker, Landstill has a win-condition that is hard to remove outside of Maelstrom Pulse/Vindicate. It doesn't win instantly, but it does win over turns combined with card/board advantage. The difference between landstill's ggfactor and other decks is that ours is not instantaneous, and requires many turns to set up and secure, but once secured, it serves the same purposes as any other ggfactor .e.g NO-Prog, Countertop etc. Jace 2.0's printing has been a tremendous resource and win-condition boost for the deck. We don't have a fast and easy ggfactor compared to other decks, but we still have the win-conditions that are at the same time a resource against your opponent's resources. But you hit the heart of the problem very well. I just wanted to point out from our perspective that we do have a similar win-condition, just that it is developed over a series of many turns and interactions.

JamieW89

09-14-2010, 09:23 PM

I started thinking a bit about my deck after not playing almost the entire summer. I really loved the Ubg deck which seems to be more popular now. However I feel its matchup against vengevine madness isn't too great, and that seems to be the hot deck atm. Because of this I'll just stick to my UWb version. I'm going to try running wish in it though, it's cute :3

My current set-up:

Maindeck: 60

// Card Advantage & Quality: 9
4x Brainstorm
3x Standstill
2x Sensei’s Divining Top

// Removal & Board-Control: 10
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Path to Exile
2x Engineered Explosives
1x Humility
2x Vindicate

// Counters: 10
4x Force of Will
3x Spell Snare
3x Counterspell

// Win Conditions: 4
2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

// Multipurpose: 3
2x Cunning Wish
1x Enlightened Tutor

// Lands: 24
4x Tundra
1x Underground Sea
1x Scrubland
2x Plains
2x Island
4x Flooded Strand
3x Polluted Delta
4x Mishra’s Factory
3x Wasteland

Sideboard: 15
4x Leyline of the Void
3x Engineered Plague
3x Extirpate
1x Enlightened Tutor
1x Pulse of the Fields
1x Tsabo’s Decree
1x Blue Elemental Blast
1x Diabolic Edict
-

The things I'm not quite sure about are:

Mainboard:
- Only 3 Standstills.
- Top.
- Jace.
- E.Tutor targets. Should I try to get a Moat and split 1/1 with humility? Should I run 1/2 humility?
- Cunning Wish. Play 0,2,3?
- 24th Land. I used to play 23, which do you think is right? Possible a trop for Krosan Grip side & EE for 4?

Sideboard:
- Number of Wish/non-Wish Slots.
- The wishboard. I think this can be improved a bit still.

Mark Sun

09-15-2010, 12:11 AM

JamieW89

09-15-2010, 01:50 AM

3 Brainstorm can be played but only if your deck is highly redundant. I would probably not do it in your build. 2 SDT, 2 Wish are cards that help you set up and are not able for use immediately. I don't think this deck can function as well without Fact or Fiction. Some people prefer multiple Jaces, I haven't tested that but I guess it apparently worked for UGB players.

That said, I don't think Jace, TMS is necessarily a replacement for Decree of Justice, I still run 3 DoJ and I haven't looked back. Your only source of pure card advantage outside of the singleton Jace is 3 Standstill, and having 3 Decree as a safety blanket for when you drop it does help. It also is another win condition.

I don't think your philosophy on Cunning Wish is necessarily correct, having less cards to board in will decrease your win percentage in a number of matchups post-board to begin with. Having a "catch all" is not as effective sometimes as having the ability to sideboard well with the correct selection. When I played with Cunning Wish a long time ago, I had only 4 wish targets:

Enlightened Tutor
Pulse of the Fields
Ray of Distortion/Return to Dust
Extirpate

Usually that is enough, I had an actual sideboard that consisted of Path to Exiles, Negates, etc. Obviously those can be wished for as well. Some food for thought.

Game-1 often takes a while as well, causing sideboarded games to be of lesser importance than with slow decks.
I don't really want to play too many cards with 4+ manacost. I have 2 Elspeth, 1 Jace, 2 WoG, 2 Humility = 7 atm. FoF & DoJ are also 4+ and I don't really want to cut any of those other cards except maybe for 1 humility because of the wishable E.Tutor. Speaking of which, should I drop a humility for the 4th brainstorm, which I guess would be better to have after all (also increasing blue count to 20).
The only thing I wouldn't mind having an extra normal sb card against is storm, but without mystical that matchup has improved a bit, and I don't really want to cut any wish cards (I actually want to play more :P). Some of the cards are also sided in as singletons sometimes, if that matters.

ChiiMagic

09-15-2010, 11:26 AM

The numbers of this list seem to be really questionable. Your only 4 ofs are FOW and STP and your draw suite doesn't seem strong enough to allow you to dig for what you might need at the time.
I would NEVER play less than 4 Brainstorms, and I feel like your 4 drop slot is a little heavy with those 7. I'm probably speaking from my bias against Humility, but I'd cut both of those suckers.

GGoober

09-15-2010, 11:41 AM

Hi Jamie, choosing card slots for UWb Landstill is a pain indeed and I always end up wasting 1-3 hours on the last 3 slots depending on meta, but a few notes:

4 Brainstorm always. I used to buy the 3 Brainstorm + 2 Top configuration but when you start getting to understand the purpose of Brainstorm in a control deck, it's not to be used freely. Save your Brainstorms ONLY when you need to use it e.g. (dig answers when you don't have answers in hand, set up land drops). Many players in my group enjoy Brainstorming turn 1 which I feel is a weak play since the power of Brainstorm becomes stronger as the game goes on and players' cards decreases. Therefore 4 copies of Brainstorm is a must.

I debate on 3-4 Standstills and despite issues where it cannot be cast favorably sometimes, I stil go with 4. Why? This is what I noticed in Landstill. You lose most of the time because you don't end up stabilizing, you trade cards 1-1 until your opponent wins the top-decking or drawing mode and you don't have enough raw card advantage. However, 4 Standstill is weak if your maindeck isn't tuned to use it. I say 3 i the best amount in a general deck now, but I would go with 4, tune your deck to support it (more paths, decrees, wastelands) etc.

WoG is pretty relevant now although I'm a fan of Humility over WoG for decks with 2 Elspeth and enough removal. In Cunning WIsh builds especially, I forgo Wrath since you can Wish->Etutor->Humility or Wish->Pulse to gain back some life. I would cut WoG for the 3rd Vindicate and 3rd EE. 3 EE IS A MUST!! I cannot stress how this card stabilizes games and sweeps a board of creatures/non-creatures to put you in a favorable position. It's huge against Zoo, Merfolks, Goblins somewhat and is the thing that puts you over the top of Countertop (no pun intended).

3 Spell Snare, 3 Counterspel is a nice configuration although I prefer 4 Counterspell. UU is sometimes an issue (I run 8 cololress in 24 lands so it's an issue sometimes against wastelands). The main reason I play 4 CS is because I play 2 Scepters in my deck now.

3 Jace if you can squeeze it in. Every game that I saw him, I tend to win or put my opponents in a tough situation. Jace with sweepers is a great combo provided you hit up to 4 lands safely. A reason why I like Crucible maindeck these days. It really screws up tempo deck strategies. Hitting 3 mana isn't too hard against them unless they're packing Sinkholes Vindicates but who plays those decks anyway these days? We are having more mid-range slower aggro decks focused on 2cmc and 3cmc than we used to in the past. 2 Crucible has been amazing for me. It's a card and board advantage engine, returning lands from yard so netting a card in your hand if you can play a land from your yard every turn, also it sets up wastelocks and stills some games. It's hilarious to note that against aggro loam, if you get Crucible online and have the counter on their Maelstrom pulse, you are the one dominating them with land destruction since Crucible > Loam due to the free cost of returning lands.

Either way the list looks good, only issue I have is: 4 Brainstorm, at least 2 Jace, cut Wrath/Vindicate don't play both, probably cut Wrath. In your list I actually would like to go, -2 WoG, +1 Vindicate +1 ETutor (which acts as a pseudo 4th Standstill, 3rd EE, 3rd Humility). Also find room for the 3rd EE, it's the best card outside of planeswalker and FoW in Landstill.

JamieW89

09-15-2010, 11:45 AM

Nice post crz87 :)
So cutting both wraths for 1 Etutor & 1 Jace. Cutting the second humility for brainstorm, with a tutor main as well. Guess I can give that a shot.
What do you think about the sb? Cut 3 wish targets for Spell Pierces or something?

GGoober

09-15-2010, 01:13 PM

Sounds like a good change, but make sure to test it against your meta. Card slots are flexible according to meta for this deck, meta-tuning is what breaks and makes the deck work, shoving your mostly 50-50 matchups to 55-45 or better.

Your SB:
4x Leyline of the Void
3x Engineered Plague
1x Extirpate
1x Enlightened Tutor
1x Pulse of the Fields
1x Tsabo’s Decree
1x Ravenous Trap
1x Mindbreak Trap
1x Blue Elemental Blast
1x Diabolic Edict

My SB for UWb Wishstill
3 EPlague
3 Extirpate
1 ETutor
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Diabolic Edict
3 Negate
1 Dismantling Blow
2 Flex slots (BEB, more GYhate, Perish etc, Path)

I think Leyline is a little subpar in the deck. When I build landstill, I want my SB to be as diversified as I can. The big selling point to playing UWb instead of other UWx list is perhaps strictly due to Extirpate. If you noticed, the more popular UGb Wishstill lists are all packing 3-4 Extirpates. Extirpate used to be discussed to be a weak main-deck card, but I have really liked it so far. Unlike Crypt/Leyline/Relic, Extirpate is not a dead card against non-GY based decks. I usually board in Extirpate against mid-range decks, control decks as well. Extirpating when your opponents Brainstorm or Top/cash-Top is quite brutal. Personally, I'm just a fan of this card in certain matchups (GY, control, mid-ranged). The ability to Peek at your opponent's hand is quite crucial to determine the next turns of play.

Negate v.s. Spell Pierce is a matter of preference and meta-gaming. If you're worried about vials/survival/stax/combo, go with pierces since it's faster. After playing with the Scepterstill builds, I personally like Negates better since 2 Chant MD serves to answer bulk of the troublesome matchups (combo) so post-board Negates on Scepter makes for the 4-7 hard counters in the deck. Even without scepter, I still prefer negate, but pierce wins in faster metagames.

If you're playing Wish, you definitely want an artifact/enchantment removal target. I like Dismantling Blow since it's the most easily casted under a bloodmoon and the kicker is nice (draw 2 cards) though not usually used. I have lost games due to not having a Grip effect in the wishboard. I'm not a fan of Tsabo's Decree. You should have a good shot against tribal postboard with EPlauges so Tsabo's really a 5B win-more card IMO. I never played it, it's brutal tech though. I tested the cute wish targets of Ravenous Trap/Mindbreak etc but I realized I just don't need them. Mindbreak Trap especially is usually a wasted slot in the SB since against combo, I never want to keep wishes in (too slow) and I board out wishes and go for a straightforward more-counterspell, more-extirpate approach.

For my SB strategy, again stressing the redundancy of dead cards and having the SB slots be as flexible as possible, I board accordingly:

tribal: +3 EPlague, +1Edict, +1Path
control: +3Negate (wow), +3 Extirpate
combo: +3Negate, +3Extirpate (although Meddling Mage is usually much stronger than Negate since you want pro-active solutions to combo instead of reactive ones due to them playing Chant)
aggro-loam: +2Extirpate (keep one in wishboard), +1 Path
Dredge/vengevines: +3 Extirpate (this hits vengevines hard! Also against Dredge, just pate their Bridges, plow ichorids, FoW Dread Return, EE Zombies and play a more tricky control game)
stax/enchantress: 3 Negates, 3 Extirpates (good against Wasteland/crucible/replenish)

As you can see, Extirpate is quite the solid choice for black-builds. For a control deck, hitting multiple copies of a spell that you don't want to see increases your net answers in future turns. Although the only drawback is that sometimes they don't have the target in the yard. However, since I mentioned that Extirpate really shines against control, mid-range decks and these decks are the ones taking more turns, you get more chances to see cards in the yard for targets. Extirpate is still decent against combo due to the ability to mess up Brainstorm/Top piles, and hitting their Rituals/LEDs when they go: Ritual AdNauseam, potentially weakening their post AdNauseam draws. A more deep analysis on the combo player's play with Extirpate would be to observe their manabase and see how they play their spells. Example:

Turn 1: He duresses your only FoW/counter
Turn 2: He leads with a Ritual, you rip Extirpate.
You analyze his play by assuming he's going off with Ad Nauseam since he feels he is protected after taking your FoW and would most likely go Ritual Ritual Ad Nauseam. This is a good time to Extirpate the first ritual after priority is passed to you.

This is an example of a less-obvious use of Extirpate that can win games, there's obviously a lot more small situations, all very specific depending on what's in the yard, but this is a good example of an opponent dumping a spell and making a legal and relevant target in the yard for Extirpate to be used. I have been wrecked by Extirpate when using Brainstorm, and it is a strong reason to play Extirpate against control, mid-range decks as well, since reshuffling their 2-card knowledge provides a little more advantage as well.

ChiiMagic

09-15-2010, 08:34 PM

Turn 1: He duresses your only FoW/counter
Turn 2: He leads with a Ritual, you rip Extirpate.
You analyze his play by assuming he's going off with Ad Nauseam since he feels he is protected after taking your FoW and would most likely go Ritual Ritual Ad Nauseam. This is a good time to Extirpate the first ritual after priority is passed to you.

You're not going to be able to Extirpate anything relevent here if I'm understanding what you're saying correctly. So let me be more clear.
Turn 1: Irrelevent
Turn 2 Opponent: Dark Ritual. Dark Ritual. Ad Nauseam.
In this scenario, after the first Dark Ritual resolves he gets priority back. He will cast the other Dark Ritual and then the priority is yours again, but apparently all you can do is Extirpate when there is BB and a Dark Ritual on the stack with an Ad Naseam in the grip which means you're probably dead.

GGoober

09-21-2010, 04:51 PM

Has anyone tested Peacekeeper? 2W 1/1 During upkeep pay :1W: or sacrifice Peacekeeper. Creatures cannot attack.

After reading Atog Lord's UBw Dreadstill report, I feel that Peacekeeper is akin to old lists running Preacher as tech. Peacekeeper would probably win much slower but it is a hard lock on the following decks:

- Merfolks
- SnT/Reanimator
- Dredge
- Bant Aggro packing only StP as removal (counter it)

Out of these few matchups, Merfolks/SnT/Dredge are perhaps the more troublesome matchup out of Landstill's aggro matchup (we handle Zoo fine, gobs depends if they waste/port us to death).

I think I will be testing him, but so far Scepter-Chant acts as a pseudo Peacekeeper but requiring casting spells that can be counterbalanced. This is more out there for the people not running Scepter-Chants in their Landstill lists. Seemed like that tech did very well for Atog Lord (14-1-0) and shored up his bad matchups (merfolks).

Similar to his strategy, we go UWb with W for Peacekeeper owning the above mentioned aggro matchups, and B for Perish/EPlagues on Gobs and Zoo/Bant matchups. As such, just fine-tune your deck to beat the other matchups (Countertop/Control/Combo out of which Landstill already has favorable matchups aside from combo).

Peacekeeper has a drawback that you cannot win as well though, unlike Dreadstill which can quickly win with a Dreadnought after Peacekeeper. However from Atog Lord's report, it seemed that he is mostly winning with Peacekeeper + Jace lock. And since I have myself up'd the Jace count to 3, I think he's a strong inclusion (cheap yet more powerful option to moat).

Last week I made Top8 at my local tourney. Lost to Hypergenesis (Him Terrastadon, Me Humility, it gets blowned up as verified by cdr on the rulings here. I didn't drop Humility to hope to cast it later, but Terrastadon nukes my WW, and I don't draw WW in the next 2 turns). I died to the classic flaw of Humility: "Grip alpha strike with Teeg + Goyf + Predator eating my Scepter". I definitely made some mistakes but it taught me the power and fragility of Humility. It seriously shuts down a ton of decks, but any decks packing green, you cannot rely on the option.

The same issue applies to Moat. Moat/Humility is in general a stronger choice over WoG since its effect applies continously, but there is a risk on losing the game once this is dealt. WoG is certainly viable but I like the static permanent removal choices over it. Humility/Moat are prone to Grips, which costs you the game since you cannot counter Grip. Peacekeeper on the other hand is a creature (that is untouched in the aggro matchups mentioned above) and cannot be gripped or killed by split second (only split second card played in Legacy mainly is grip/wipe away), in addition, most aggro decks tend to side out creature removal against you, so in a field of unsuspecting players not prepared against a less-popular Landstill deck, this tech may steal some wins.

I'm going to be testing Peacekeeper over Humility in the SB option, knowing it'll give me the straight win against UG, UB, Mono-U Merfolks, SnT/Reanimator and sealing most aggro games where opponents do not run heavy removal, or board out removals against Landstill. Although Preacher is as strong an answer, although against Reanimator/Progenitus/Inkwell/Shroud it fails. It is brutal against any other aggro decks with light removal though.

@Chii yeah he has priority there, I guess if he's careless and passes it back to me, or if he played a different spell, I can sneak that Extirpate in :P

ChiiMagic

09-21-2010, 07:23 PM

RogueMTG

09-21-2010, 07:47 PM

Yeah dude, I think Peacekeep is pretty sick. I got to nab all of them from my local store for 55cents each. Its 100% an upgrade over Firespout in the Merfolk matchup which was needed. I haven't gotten to test him out just because of a lack of tournaments but I definitely plan to play him.

Typically the claim of something being 100% better than something else comes AFTER thorough testing with results to compare against previous results... but I must say your approach of making sweeping unproven generalizations is, if nothing else, to the point.

Peacekeeper was brought up months ago on salvation, and AFTER testing, the determination was that he was terrible, almost strictly worse than Preacher (who, you know, lets you WIN THE GAME) against Merfolk.

Seriously think about it, letting Keeper die and then alpha striking with 1/1 creature tokens seems pretty far fetched... and the "pray my Jace resolves" plan is dangerous on multiple levels...

On a side note, I haven't dropped a match against the 'folk since adding Preacher to my board, so maybe I'm biased.

lorddotm

09-21-2010, 07:53 PM

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Sensei’s Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Path to Exile
4 Force of Will
4 Standstill
4 Counterspell
2 Firespout
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Decree of Justice

4 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
4 Mishra’s Factory
3 Wasteland
3 Island
2 Plains

I haven't come up with a sideboard, but what do you think?

Mark Sun

09-21-2010, 09:11 PM

<Stuff about Peacekeeper>

The other thing I'd like to add is that it isn't necessarily a hard lock against anything, notice for example how Merfolk, Reanimator/SnT, and Dredge have access to bounce spells. Not sure about Bant Aggro, as there are many forms of it, but let me say that when we start devoting resources to protect our win conditions, it creatures a very fragile situation and you don't want to be progressing into that position from the beginning of the game.

<List>

Why 4 Ponder? What does 4 Ponder / 2 SDT give you that 3-4 SDT + 2-3 Business cards don't?

I think we need to restructure this thread a little bit, to be honest. I was speaking with a former MTG player from the glory days of The Drain, and he mentioned that the productivity of the discussion highly increases when a standardized core of a deck is established as much as possible, and the flex spots are discussed more in detail. This way, we don't focus on reiterating what's been said multiple times already. Personally I think the core of the deck can be as high as 45+ cards, with the remaining 15 tailored for the surrounding metagame. I have tried Ponder before and that's not what you want to be doing with this deck.

lorddotm

09-21-2010, 11:12 PM

I saw someone comment about how this deck needs certain answers, I feel that Ponder does that very well. Especially since we don't run very man fetchlands.

Then again, I play mostly combo, so I have no idea what the in's and out's of this deck are. Aren't multiple tops terrible?

Shawn

09-21-2010, 11:39 PM

I played a couple of Ponders not too long after they came out. Top fills this role better, as it's better in the early game against mana denial, since it can find multiple landsl and better in the late game because you can use it repeatably. Ponder is blue and pitches to Force, but you can make lists with sufficient blue cards and Tops so it's not a problem.

Then again, I play mostly combo, so I have no idea what the in's and out's of this deck are. Aren't multiple tops terrible?

No, they are pretty easy to get rid of if you play 7 or so shuffle effects. Fetchlands turn uneeded Tops into pseudo-Impulses. Also, it's nice to draw into additional Tops in blue matchups in case they counter or Grip one. I played at the Minnesota 5k without Tops after running a playset at the STL one, and I definitely regretted not having at least a pair in the list. Landstill needs some sort of manipulation other than Brainstorm, whether it's Top, Loam, Crucible or Dragon to give it "deck velocity" to survive late game top decks.

ChiiMagic

09-22-2010, 12:38 AM

Peacekeeper was brought up months ago on salvation, and AFTER testing, the determination was that he was terrible, almost strictly worse than Preacher (who, you know, lets you WIN THE GAME) against Merfolk.
On a side note, I haven't dropped a match against the 'folk since adding Preacher to my board, so maybe I'm biased.

I have absolutely NO idea why you would think Preacher > Peacekeeper. They are identical in cost and in P/T so its only their abilities that we can be disagreeing on. Why is gain control of your opponents worst creature better than creatures can't attack? I'll worry about how I'm going to win the game after I've dealt with not losing the game first. I don't understand how Preacher, you know, wins you the game by commandeering a Cursecatcher while you get islandwalked by a few lords, but I'm sure you've tested Landstill more than I have, so I'll just take your word for it.
Moving along...

I think we need to restructure this thread a little bit, to be honest. I was speaking with a former MTG player from the glory days of The Drain, and he mentioned that the productivity of the discussion highly increases when a standardized core of a deck is established as much as possible, and the flex spots are discussed more in detail. This way, we don't focus on reiterating what's been said multiple times already. Personally I think the core of the deck can be as high as 45+ cards, with the remaining 15 tailored for the surrounding metagame. I have tried Ponder before and that's not what you want to be doing with this deck.

I'll start this off then I suppose. Here's a list of cards that I think cannot be omitted from any UW Landstill deck while still being able to be called that.
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Swords to Plowshares
3-4 Counterspell
3-4 Mishra's Factory
4 Flooded Strand
2 Blue Fetches

This is only like half of a deck, but I feel like any other card I can think of, I know some people would say it is not a MUST. I feel that Elspeth and Jace, TMS are musts with the current state of the format, but I can respect other people's decisions to not include them. I guess we could start to discuss what other cards everybody else feels are musts.

GGoober

09-22-2010, 03:13 PM

Preacher > Peacekeeper in Merfolks is true to some extent. I didn't disacknowledge preacher and in fact I mentioned that Preacher maybe better than Peacekeeper specifically to Merfolks since you have a non-grippable Shackles effect.

But take note that althouh Preacher can win you games, Preacher only wins you games if the board positions that are still somewhat favorable for you e.g. 3 creatures out, Preacher wins games, anything more, Preacher sucks. Peacekeeper IGNORES board position, and is strictly better from an overall situation. It's the same reason why I am not giving the axe on Elspeth 2.0 since despite the fact that Elspeth 2.0 costs :1: more, she is strictly better from an overall situation and much better in ugly board positions than Elspeth 1.0.

Peacekeeper does not care if your opponents board position. It is a little safer than Humility in all honesty since a Grip has split second that you cannot deal with and you lose games but nothing kills Peacekeeper at split-second speed that is Legacy playable except Wipe Away but that kills ANYTHING (preacher/peacekeeper/Humility/Moat) so Wipe Away isn't a good argument in our scenario. Reanimator/SnT has bounce and Bant etc has StP, but Peacekeeper still shines in those matchups where opponents aren't playing Gobs/Zoo (aka little removal aggro decks). If they have bounce/removal, you just sandbag counters and win on the back of Jace. Unlike Preacher, Peacekeeper can just ignore the board whereas Preacher still requires you to play carefully and keep the board under control, not to mention Jitte being a huge problem against Preacher.

Also, Peacekeeper is very strong against Survival Madness. I feel that it is overall the stronger card. Preacher also costs WW, which might be an issue against Wasteland/Merfolks. I don't advertise a card without strong reasons. Atog Lord's UWb Dreadstill report sums up the strengths of Peacekeeper in Dreadstill, and in all honesty, he is perhaps even stronger in Landstill that packs an even more diverse Maindeck, making him a stronger as a sideboard/supplement card.

About Landstill's core:
4 Force of Will
3-4 Brainstorm
3-4 Standstill
4 Swords to Plowshares
0-4 Counterspells
3-4 Mishra's Factory
0-3 Wasteland
0-2 Elspeth 1.0
0-3 Jace 2.0
0-3 Decree
0-2 Top
3-4 EE

What I mentioned above is a collection of lists that run a common combination of cards above, although I think with today's choices/meta, the following below is what really makes Landstill Landstill:
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Swords
3-4 Counterspells
4 Mishra's Factory
2-3 Jace
3-4 EE
flex slots

These are the things that you cannot deter from. Any major change would shift it towards either non-Standstill approaches, Speedstill (more snares/Vindicates). Flex slots are always tuned to the meta, and this is what makes this deck appeal to people playing it, i.e. the ability to adapt and tweak for a meta.

Comment on 3v4 Standstills
For people running 3 Standstills, and buy the argument "Standstill is no longer good in the format": You are not playing an optimal deck running 4 Standstills. Aether Vials and all that do suck, but if you suspect such a meta, pack more EEs etc and plan out your plays so you resolve Standstills. I as on the verge on agreeing that Landstill's Standstill is no longer viable, but after more practice and maturity, I begin to understand that making such a statement is simply an excuse for not being able to design and pilot the deck well.

I tried the Top-Predict approach. It's cute and nice, but I think the draw is even more conditional than Standstill, and requires you to setup for Top/Brainstorm Predict which takes more effort than going for an UNCONDITIONAL turn 2 Standstill when the deck is designed correctly.

It's really hard for me to defend Standstill v.s. Predict because my friends don't play Landstill and only bitch about Standstills when I chain them and then make all the arguements that Predict > Standstill because it's not a situational draw. There's a reason why chaining Standstills feels overwhelming because it's 3 friggin cards per Standstill. Have you felt overwhelmed when an opponent 'chains' Predicts/Brainstorms? I don't think so but you feel overwhelmed when someone chains a second Standstill. 3 Predicts (each attempt to drawing 2 cards being conditional) nets 6 cards, which amounts to two resolved Standstills.

Let's assume that Predict isn't all that situation (which it really is and a mana-intensive draw with Top + topping + Predict), drawing 3 cards off Standstill and 2 cards off Predict is a HUGE deal for a control deck. The only benefit that Predict has over Standstill is that it's run in a shell with Counterbalance, so seemingly it seems more powerful when evaluating the card but the truth is its unsituational card advantage is only positively felt because it's in a shell that is netting pseudo card advantage. WotC has yet to print a card that trumps Standstill's card drawing power, not to mention the synergy it has in a control deck.

Making landdrops and sculpting a hand under standstill for 0-3 turns is also crucial for Landstill players to slow the game down a little. This is part of the strategy and big advantages to playing Standstill. If your opponent doesn't crack it, you set yourself up for more lands and cards. If they crack it early, you're in a good position again. Now, there are cases where Standstill does suck, but even Predict/Top is too slow (or draws 1 card) against Turn 1 Aether Vial Turn 2 standstill against Merfolks and other fast decks.

I'm nagging a ton, but that's an argument why 4 Standstill is completely viable in today's meta, and just wanted to dispell a myth. But if the meta is infested with vials, obviously play 3 Standstills. But even against Merfolks/Gobs, if I'm on the play I would play 4 standstills. On the draw that's a different issue. And if you're that worried about vial decks, then just pack more MD Paths. Your fear of not resolving standstill corresponds 1-1 to the dominance of vial decks, and to beat those decks, just metagame accordingly. That's what the flex slots are for in the deck anyway.

GGoober

09-22-2010, 03:34 PM

And an observation to Landstill:

Landstill is all about card advantage and stabilizing early game. Every extra card you can draw is a resource for a deck that doesn't has a 'cheaty' win-condition e.g. Countertop, Natural Order, Show and Tell.

Every card in the deck should play out synergistically and emphasize the point above. Every card needs to fulfill roles that x-1s opponents.

E.g.
- WoG x-1 although there are better options like EE.
- Planeswalkers (esp Jace 2) are good examples on how 1 card translates into more card/board/interaction advantage for the Landstill player
- Crucible is an old-school huge card advantage engine netting 1 card a turn when you have lands in your yard
- Isochron Scepter when resolved is another card advantage engine
- Cunning Wish gives flexibility
- Vindicate/StP 1-1s, but these are needed for obvious reasons.
- Standstill nets 3 cards.

Basically in the early game, you are doing the following:
- FoWing spells (you lose 1-2)
- Counterspell/StP (1-1)
- EE (maybe 2-1)

Landstill's challenge is to learn how to do 1-1 trades (sometimes 1-2 from FoW) intelligently and accurately while keeping in mind the options that the deck will draw and try to stabilize against the decks that have stronger early games/win-conditions.

During the process of stabilizing, cards like Brainstorm/Standstill will give you future options, refill your hand. And when the turn comes to resolving the card advantage cards listed above, namely planeswalker, this is where you will start gaining huge advantage over turns and simply win because of that. The reason why Standstill (and hopefully you see my point why 4 is a good number if you can aim for that in a meta) is stil strong is because of this very fact. You need to recouperate the resources that you exchanged against decks and keep yourself fueled defensively until resolving the engines that net you more card/interaction advantage. At that point you will start to win games.

Many decks are really designed to play against other decks e.g. I build a legacy deck keeping in mind Gobs/Merfolks/Countertop/Combo, but who builds a deck keeping Landstill in mind? This is one of the hidden strengths of the deck, being under the radar. Just as ChiiMagic pointed out, ScepterChant being under the radar will steal you some games. Given that most decks are now preparing against Jace 2.0, still nothing much can be done DIRECTLY against him outside of REBs. And you on the other hand as a Landstill player, is sculpting the deck that keeps him alive, knowing that he keeps your hand and your game alive.

Recognizing the weaknesses and strengths of LAndstill, you can begin to understand why certain cards can play well e.g. Peacekeeper argument.
- Weaknesses: stabilizing early game, often losing card/interaction advantage since you are dealing with decks that are usually very strong in the early game.
- Strengths: accessing card/interaction advantage engines e.g. Planeswalker/Crucible/Scepter/Standstill that give you a stronger mid-end game.

Peacekeeper will shine in mostly offsetting the weaknesses of the deck. He will single-handedly buy you turns just as Humility would (Except that not even 1/1 can attack), giving you time to hit the Strengths of the deck, and start winnign from there. Preacher does the same as well, but I think Preacher is weaker on the Weakness aspects of the deck, but is stronger on the Strengths of the deck. So his inclusion over Peacekeeper has to deal with how the deck itself was designed.

E.g. Peacekeeper's main lock is to win through Jace 2.0 since your creatures cannot attack as well, although you can setup an army of 1/1s from Elspeth 1.0. So playing 3 Jace maybe needed to support Peacekeepers in the SB if you plan on not going to time. Interestingly, Peacekeeper is quite absurd and synergistic with Elspeth 2.0. Net some tokens under him, then blow him up with her ultimate and swing in, perhaps leaving enough loyalty for another disk activation

Felidae

09-22-2010, 05:40 PM

Comparing Peacekeeper and Preacher isn't very fair, as both are heading for opposite strategies.
Preacher forces your opponent to overextend the board in order to pass through him (or they'll get chump blockt by their own fellows). As you mentiont early trading x-1 with a card like Wrath or Explosiv is the nuts and Preacher basicly drives your opponent directly to this point.

Peacekeeper on the other hand is great if you want to freeze the game in general, however creating a board state where only 2-3 cards in your deck can win doesn't seem to great. What I do like about Peacekeeper is that you can decide if he'll stay on board or leave, being able to set up a small army via Decree or Elspeth. Yet I don't like the fact that he's incredible slow, which isn't exactly promoting for a deck that is rather slow (assuming that your opponent can just outstall you, as you need several turns to find Jace, find couter to protect him, set him at 13, use his ulti and then wait 7-8 more turns for them to die. I know this is a normal way to win with Jace, but if your opponent can't win anymore there are only 2 possible things to do: surrender or stalling).

Speaking about the Merfolk MU, I'm looking forward to test Llawan in the spot of my 2 Preachers once more, as more and more lists including 2-3 Kiras have shown up in my meta recently.

GGoober

09-23-2010, 03:06 PM

I think Llawan is more narrow than Peacekeeper if it's just for Merfolks so Peacekeeper seems more natural to be tested over Llawan. I realized that having a static WoG/Humility effect that does not die to Grip is quite huge. It will basically put your Merfolks/Bant matchups in a favored position (bant is usually not a big problem) but there are NO/SnT decks with Green packing grips that still ruin Humility.

Anyway, the list that I've been working on 2 years ago, finally got some form. It's still definitely inferior to Landstill but this is a new 'Greedier' approach to Landstill, I call it Greedstill lol. Any input on N&D would be appreciated. It's my personal project that I've worked and scraped over the years since Mox Diamond in control usually leads to 'Ugh Mox Diamond sucks, should be more business spell' v.s. 'Mox Diamond turn 1 Bob/Chalice@1/Loam is broken, I want to try it with Standstill!'

Here's a sample list:
Lands: 23 (26 with +3 Maze of Ith)
1 Academy Ruins
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
3 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest

Creature control: 10
3 Maze of Ith
3 EE
4 StP

Acceleration: 5
4 Mox Diamond
1 Life from the Loam

Card advantage: 15
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
2 Scroll Rack
2 Cunning Wish
3 Jace

Counters: 8
4 FoW
4 Counterspell

SB:
3 Meddling Mage
3 Spell Pierce
2 Krosan Grip
1 ETutor
1 Intuition
2 BEB
3 Tormod's Crypt

ChiiMagic

09-23-2010, 05:29 PM

You need a Tolaria West in this sucker. Loam + Tolaria West is a pretty sick tutor engine for your EEs and utility lands.

GGoober

09-23-2010, 05:47 PM

O_O Forgot that Loam returns TWest to hand, too used to playing Crucible and disliking TWest because not much synergy with Crucible lol.

DragoFireheart

10-03-2010, 11:31 AM

melie

10-03-2010, 02:42 PM

Elspeth Tiriel

Will she see play in this version of Landstill? There's an entire topic on her in the Format & Article Discussion, but I'd like to talk about her role specifically in this deck.

She does a number of things to help Landstill as she can generate more tokens than Elspeth 1 (generates 1.5 if rotating between token and life gain effects). Her life gain ability is good for helping use stabilize after taking a beating from creature decks. Her Ultimate is useful for blowing up numerous things that would be an issue for this deck.

Thoughts?

There has allready somewhat of a discussion a few pages back (around 212 I think).
I don't really think she is going to be better than Elspeth, Knight Errant;

- First of, there is the cost. 4 and 5 mana is a BIG difference.
- Also, her protection ability is a - one while Els 1.0 has a +. This is actually a very big deal against all decks playing burn.
- Her + ability is completely useless 99% of the time on the turn she comes in. Ok, you can set up a Nevinyrall's disc but this can be disrupted much more easily than an actual disc, costs more and nobody is playing Disc anyways so I don't see why this can be brought on as a valid argument to play her.
- Doesn't have the +3/+3 flying beatdown option.

+ Her minus ability is very very impressive. On 2 turns she makes as much tokens as Els 1.0 in 6. Only problem is that you can only do this 2 times without using her +2 ability and this makes her kind of cluncky. Life gain isn't that relevant in Legacy imo except against red decks of course..
+ Ability to Disc can sometimes be relevant. Personally I do think it's a little to slow and easy to disrupt against the decks it would matter the most.
+ Awesome with Humility
+ I think she might be a complete game ending spell in DoJ builds.

All in all it just comes down to testing. I think a very standard use of her could be;
Play on turn 5 or turn six against Wasteland, Stifle, Daze, ...
Make 3 tokens,
Gain x life,
Make 3 tokens,
Gain x life,
When you have enough tokens to make him overextend, + another time and Disc away everything, ...
etc, ...
On paper this doesn't look bad imo. Only problem is that I think the life gain doesn't do much against a lot of decks and the red decks just burn her down when you make the first 3 tokens. Using the + abiilty when she enters does literally nothing in our deck because you'll have to spent even more mana to animate your factories.

Sooo.. I'm going to test her in a version with DoJ and Humilty to see what happens but overall I think she is a little to expensive. But like I said, I think this definately is a card that could be very good after extensive testing (and in the correct shell with DoJ and Humility).

GGoober

10-04-2010, 11:50 AM

This week, I brought an experimental version of Landstill in my metagame and I think the deck has quite some potential.

I've made some interesting experiments with the deck, adding 2 Maze of Ith as 'creature-removal' non land spots with 2 Intuition. Once I get a Crucible out (2 maindeck), Intuition grabs EE/Ruins/Maze/Wasteland and sets up an engine there. If I have either Scepter/instants in my hand, I can Intuition out instants/scepter etc. I spent about 1 hour debating if Loam Intuition > Crucible Intuition but I fell in favor of Crucible Intuition (takes no mana which is important in a control deck) and doesn't force me to play green, which sucks in control decks. Black/red is so much stronger as a splash color. Loam Intuition however opens the option for Forbid + Tolaria West shenanigans but those engines are too mana-intensive and 'countertop'-style for my tastes.

//Lands: 23
4 Strand
2 Delta
2 Plains
2 Island
3 Tundra
1 Scrubland
2 Underground Sea
4 Factory
2 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins

// Card-advantage/tutors: 17
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
2 Isochron Scepter
2 Intuition
2 Crucible
3 Jace 2.0

//Board-control: 11
2 Maze of Ith
3 EE
4 StP
2 Elspeth 2.0

//Permission: 10
2 Orim's Chant
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

I personally enjoyed playing this so far even though it was my first time playing this list. Eventually I might cut the Chants (I still like Scepter + anything in the deck even without Chants) but I feel that those Chants have seriously improved Landstill's game-1 matchups against any matchups (enchantress/combo/control/no-Grip aggro game1s). I really need to squeeze the 4th EE. It's too good and I felt myself wanting EE in my opening hand all day long. Ideally I want to drop 2 Chants and fit in the 4th EE and 24th land but Chant has just saved my ass too many times lol.

I'm not sure if Scepters fit this decklist well since Elspeth 2.0 blows it up eventually, but in testing, when the Scepters stick, I'm winning anyway, so there isn't a need to use Elspeth's ultimate. With the recursion in the deck (easily setup with Crucible/Intuition/lands) Scepter can be recasted again after the ultimate. But so far I have not run into this issue i.e. either Elspeth/Jace/Scepter has been dealt with before I get the duo/trio out. However, I think that if the above list cut 2 Scepters and 2 Chants for 2 Decree, 1 EE and 1 Path, it could be very strong against aggro but weakening the non-aggro matchup.

Elspeth 2.0 testing is interesting so far. I like and dislike her. Her mana isn't too much of a problem surprisingly, the main problem is her loyalty being at 2 after using the -2, which in certain scenarios make her very prone to flyers/island walkers. But her ultimate has been quite impressive. At least in my deck, I can chant a turn and blow the board up. If I get my Peacekeepers, she's going to be pretty strong against Merfolks/Emrakuls and non-Zoo/Goblin decks. Her +2 is very underwhelming but sometimes even 2 life gains you enough room to stabilize. The biggest problem I have with her is that you always want to use her -2 first (this occurs most often) and that puts her in a risky position against flyers/islandwalkers and burn (burn is not too much a problem) and she needs another 2 turns to blow up. But situations where you can drop her off and +2 immediately, she is really really powerful.

Against Stax/Stompy/Enchantress, Elsepth 2.0 will be far more relevant in these matchups. Elspeth 1.0 still holds the defense at a faster speed, but I think her application is best against aggro or against control. Elspeth 2.0 is a much better overall card against various decks, so depending on your maindeck, you want to fit E1.0 or E2.0 in depending on what your deck needs. My meta has 1/3 decks comprised of Reanimator/Show&Tell/Emrakuls/Progenitus/Enchantress so E2.0 is much more relevant in my games. I support E2.0 with this new decklist (Mazes for early defense and strengthening standstills) by providing more early game cushion and letting her resolve into her ultimate. Maze + 3 soliders + factories hold any non-flyers/island-walkers off well.

Antonius

10-08-2010, 11:30 PM

I'm not sure if this build qualifies as Landstill (I call it Tezzeret the Hater), but here is a new list that I've invented and am tuning. I think it's pretty damn powerful:

4 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
2 Tundra
1 Trop
1 Savannah
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Seat of the Synod

4 Mishra's Factory
2 Nantuko Monastery
1 Celestial Colonnade
4 Maze of Ith

1 Academy Ruins
1 Riftstone Portal
2 Lonely Sandbar

4 Mox Diamond
4 Pithing Needle
1 Damping Matrix

4 Standstill

2 Wrath of God
1 Life from the Loam

4 Counterspell
4 Swords
2 Intuition

1 Jace Beleren
1 Ajani Goldmane
1 Gideon Jura
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
1 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Tezzeret the Seeker

MD Pithing Needle might seem strange, but I assure you, it's powerful. Every top tier deck in the meta, with the exception of combo, can have their game plan severely compromised by a needle or two. Moreover, Needle on Wasteland (the correct play, like 80% of the time) makes many of the hardest match-ups cake walks. Once they are unable to disrupt your mana, there's nothing they can do to stop you from clogging the board with man lands then blowing them out with planeswalkers. Needle hits Vial, thus making Standstill a really good card again.
Vs 4c CB, needle on Top screws them sideways, since they rely on Top to not only lock the game, but fix their draws and get mana. And once you pull ahead in mana/manland development, then they're never going to touch you with goyf and its inevitable that you'll get a second needle to negate their Jace.

The wide spread on planeswalkers is so that opposing Needles never completely cripple win cons. Imo, Tezz is the best, because he wins so quickly but Ajani has been surprisingly good bc of his synergy with manlands.

median

10-09-2010, 01:23 AM

Just wondering, whats a worse match for landstill these days (any variant), Ichorid or Lands!?

Felidae

10-09-2010, 04:06 AM

Your chances to beat both of this decks depends on your Sideboard and on some Maindeck slots. If you run a list with Wish and Extirpate/Trap in your board you might have a chance against Lands, as you can remove their LftL and win via Jace (at least until the point where they got a recurring Mind Slaver online). Against Ichorid you can Extirpate their Bridges and just throw pointremoval against Ichorid, however this is by far an even worse MU, as Ichorids is faster then Lands. Another option would be a turn 4 Humility, but let's face it: this will only happen in magic christmas land.
However this can only be said preboard, as each Sideboard usually contains several cards against both of these Decks, including Relic, Crypt, Meddling Mage or Trap.
I'd recommand to concede g1 as fast as possible (that means that you should know at which point of the game you've lost, even if you still have 20 life or something like this), if you aren't playing Wish or Maindeck gravehate.
Personally I don't think that one of this Decks can be classified as "our worst MU", as it all depends on the 75 cards you run.

Antonius

10-09-2010, 04:21 AM

as Lands, I've beat landstill after they extirpated loam on turn 4. I used Celestial Colonnade to crush their walkers and crush them.

Felidae

10-09-2010, 07:31 AM

Congratz, but the Deck has 4-6 Swords to prevent this from happening.

Antonius

10-09-2010, 01:18 PM

Congratz, but the Deck has 4-6 Swords to prevent this from happening.

its called wasteland and port, dude.

lorddotm

10-09-2010, 01:22 PM

congratz, but the deck has 4-6 swords to prevent this from happening.

its called wasteland and port, dude.

duh!

Felidae

10-09-2010, 01:47 PM

Touché dude ;). Guess you did a pretty damn good job if you managed to srew him out of white mana sources without Loam (hey if he got to cast a planeswalker it is even funnier).
The lack of a fast clock can give you enough time to slowly set up your board, however a board state where you got a Celestial Colonnade + 5 Mana to use it and your opponent has a planeswalker but not enough white mana sources or Wastelands to break through Port.... the world isn't fair.

Antonius

10-09-2010, 02:07 PM

Teown

10-10-2010, 07:54 PM

Hi, first, scuse me if my english ixs not really good but I'll write as better as i can. I play 3 years ago landstill decks, always UWx and trying many splashes and versions, im working in a different variant of the deck, that have nice things, I called it tutor landstill because play with somes enlightned tutors and depend alot on it, this is the list:

1 Tolaria West
3 Island
2 Plains
4 Tundra
1 Academy Ruins
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Wasteland

2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Humility
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives

3 Enlightened Tutor
3 Standstill
4 Brainstorm

3 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will

// Sideboard:
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Day of Judgment
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Aura of Silence
SB: 3 Negate
SB: 3 Extirpate

As you can see, i put it thopter-SoM combination, this is awesome vs agro decks if u can put it in game in early game and can be a life-generator that improves burn pairings more easy in g1. In my meta there are a lot of stifle.decks and enlightned-> crucible works really nice these days. In permission slots i put it 3 snares, but im not really sure about it or spell pierce, but i think that if i not have a WoG in MD for beat agro decks, i think is better snare because eat tarmos, confidants, etc etc..., same case in SB, im not sure about negate vs spell pierce, other think about im not sure is wasteland slot vs basic land, crucible + wasteland is strong lock but in other case and playing in early turns for put thopter on game, colorless lands or turn lose its difficult, but with a tolaria in deck, is same as have 2 wastelands if i need it with crucible. SB slots is the biggest doubt i have, i need 10 more slots!! pithing neddle, sacred ground, tsabo web, tormod's crypt, oblivion ring (oponent's Jaces for example), other engineered plage, porphyry nodes, more ethersworn canonist, or, as you think, more and more nice slots. I try many versions as Wafo-tapa or cunning landstills and i see this nice list too, thanks for reading and waiting for opinions.

melie

10-11-2010, 04:55 AM

@ Teown;
I've played with Enlightened Tutor lists for years but don't anymore. The reason is the extreme card disadvantage you get when you wish for something, play it and then it gets Krosan Grip'ed. Now you've spent 2 cards for nothing and you can't do anything about it cause of the split second. The other problem is that your sideboard is very weak against Disenchant effects cause all of the 1's. When they destroy the 1 of answer you have searched for, you're out of sideboarded cards for the rest of the game.
The last and most obvious thing is that topdecking E-Tutor sucks.. When I did play it, I also played 2 Sensei's Divining Tops because at least you then can search => flip top and immediatly have the card you searched for. But like I said, I don't play E-Tutor anymore, I now play a Wafo-Tapa like list where every draw is a bussiness spell or a land.
So, while I do like Thopter Foundry as a concept, I don't like E-Tutor in Landstill and I don't think Thopter is playable at all without it.

Teown

10-11-2010, 02:58 PM

And what you think about tezzeret? I think that 5cc its too slow for a thopter lock. I know that e.tutor is a big card dissadvantage but gives versatility to deck, working this afternoon on deck i decide to implement 2-3 SdTop for tutor-draw, i really like thopter in landstill but i recognise is hard to optimize this lock on this deck. Any more ideas? In my meta i need versatility more than stability of wafo-tapa versions. Other things that i think about is put 3-4 cbalance for de more powerfull tutors but i dont like this enchant too much...

melie

10-12-2010, 09:06 AM

Well, I just don't think Thopter Foundry has a good home in Landstill. The combo also just isn't as powerfull as it was in extended. Legacy has A LOT more countermagic than Extended. Also you can't depend on Academy Ruins for recusion in a format dominated by Wasteland. Also, Legacy decks tend to play a lot of graveyard hate and this can really be a problem. My personal thought about a Landstill deck is that it should be as resilient and reduntant as possible and having a 2 card combo that doesn't do anything without both pieces in play doesn't fit that bill all to well.
If you want to play Thopter Foundry I would go outside of the Landstill shell to a deck with a lower curve and CounterBalance like this list => http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=37482 but this isn't a Standstill list anymore.

jazzykat

10-12-2010, 09:28 AM

I realize that this isn't quite the right place to talk about another of my strange experiments but do you guys feel that ensnaring bridge is fast enough to keep you from not dieing to all of the creatures of legacy? I realize they can draw Krosan grip but many successful decks (merfolk (only standstill+adept), Vengeviness, zoo) don't play much/any draw manipulation. You can still kill with JaceTM, scepter/burn, or decking them.

Tinefol

10-12-2010, 09:38 AM

Bridge means that you should keep your hand small. The deck aims to have the hand full of cards. Especially when you're winning.

jazzykat

10-12-2010, 10:09 AM

Bridge means that you should keep your hand small. The deck aims to have the hand full of cards. Especially when you're winning.

Maybe this is the wrong thread then but using permanents like planeswalkers, bridge itself, counter/top, maybe Isochron Scepter (I know LOLZ newb GTFO...), humility, and perhaps ratchet bomb, would make your hand a bit smaller.

GGoober

10-12-2010, 10:25 AM

Why is Isochron Scepter newb? It's putting up its results for the pilots playing it. It;s just noe popular, and at my area, it's been good. Just under the radar and a good strategy.

For a control deck, having card pool is critical to decision so it prolly will not work, granted it is stronger in Countertop decks where you can rely on Top to basically have '3 cards-knowledge' and maintain a smaller hand size without suffering. I rather run Peacekeepers in the sideboard as a Bridge effect, cannot be gripped, and not conditional at all (Except paying 1W)

Catitas

10-20-2010, 05:51 PM

yo dudes...

does anyone know if wafo made a report about his gp columbus performance? if anyone know please tell me, im a bit curious about his list (heard he was playing TITHES)

thanxs

JamieW89

10-21-2010, 08:16 PM

Has anyone attempted running both Spell Pierce & Spell Snare, by cutting Counterspell? This makes your manabase slightly better as you don't need UU before turn-4 anymore.
My meta mainly consists of Goblins, Merfolk, TES, Vengevival and (both UWb and BUG) Landstill.

I also have a few general questions about my list:

Maindeck: 60

Card Advantage & Quality: 10
4x Brainstorm
3x Standstill
2x Sensei’s Divining Top
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Removal & Board-Control: 16
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Path to Exile
2x Vindicate
3x Engineered Explosives
1x Wrath of God
1x Day of Judgment
2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2x Humility

Counters: 10
4x Force of Will
3x Spell Pierce / Counterspell
3x Spell Snare / Counterspell

Lands: 24
4x Tundra
1x Underground Sea
1x Scrubland
2x Plains
2x Island
4x Flooded Strand
2x Polluted Delta
1x Marsh Flats / Swamp
4x Mishra’s Factory
3x Wasteland

Sideboard: 15
3x Ethersworn Canonist
3x Engineered Plague
3x Kitchen Finks
3x Extirpate
2x Pithing Needle
1x Telemin Performance

Sideboarding Plans:

Merfolk: (8)
-8 ???
+3 Engineered Plague
+3 Kitchen Finks
+2 Pithing Needle

Goblins: (8)
-8 ???
+3 Engineered Plague
+3 Kitchen Finks
+2 Pithing Needle

Vengevival: (8)
-8 ???
+3 Ethersworn Canonist
+3 Extirpate
+2 Pithing Needle

Landstill: (6)
-6 ???
+1 Telemin Performance
+3 Extirpate
+2 Pithing Needle

TES: (7-9)
-7/9 ???
+3 Ethersworn Canonist
+3 Extirpate
+1 Telemin Performance
+2 Pithing Needle (for Shelldock?)

_____________________________________________

tl;dr Questions:
- Cut Counterspell to run both Spell Snare and Spell Pierce?
- Should I run a basic swamp or 7th fetch as 24th Land?
- What would you side out (or side in differently) in the 5 matchups posted (Goblins, Merfolk, TES, Vengevival, Landstill)?
- What do you think about the Kitchen Finks slots for anti-aggro next to plagues? Should I run something else instead?
- Would you change anything else in the SB, with the above meta in mind.
- If you cut Counterspell would you replace Jace by a Decree to eliminate UU entirely (altering your manabase towards a little more white mana as well), or maybe +1 FoF, +1 Decree, -1 Jace, -1 ???

rayaj

10-22-2010, 02:10 PM

Mark Sun

10-22-2010, 02:13 PM

Counterspell is a must and in my opinion in this deck snare is better than pierce because creatures are the bigger problem. I liked 6 fetches well enough personally and the ability to get EE to 3 for sure is useful. Finks is pretty much mvp against zoo and other aggro decks.

Just my two cents.

I feel like the noncreature stuff is the bigger problem... this deck has plenty of answers to creature based options.

I would run Spell Snare for a different reason, perhaps Survival being the hottest deck at the moment would influence that. Something like:

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
2-3 Counterspell

whiteshepherdman

10-25-2010, 09:54 PM

Where is konsultant and all of the landstill old timers, we need their expertise in this changing metagame

arcboundravager2

10-26-2010, 01:32 PM

mr. morbid throwing his two cents in on his old love. i think that a of snare may be justified in todays meta and spell pierces may deserve a spot somewhere in the 75

ChiiMagic

10-26-2010, 05:35 PM

I don't think Spell Pierce is needed anywhere in the deck. You're not playing some sort of tempo deck where a 1 mana manaleak for spells is extremely profitable.
Now Spell Snare is a whole different story because the ability to stop Survival, Goyf, Counterbalance, Pridemage, etc., is a game winning proposition. I still play 4 Counterspells and no Snares or Pierces because my deck has 3 EE, 4 STP to allow a little more slack with the resolution of the above spells because I can always remove them cheaply.
That being said, it's my opinion that neither of those spells are needed, but I wouldn't fault anyone for playing Spell Snare because it does have it's applications, even though it may feel unnecessary to me.

rancOr_

10-27-2010, 02:14 AM

With vengevine survival being the most hyped deck around i'm running even 4spell snare and lowered the cs to 2..
There is just no place for spell pierce,how good it may be(I play it in BUG-landstill) but switched UWx mainly because of vengevine-survival.

DragoFireheart

10-27-2010, 09:21 AM

What is wrong with Spell Pierce? Most of the nasty stuff is non-creature spells like Survival of the Fittest and [card]Aether Vial[/cards] or other counterspells (that aren't Daze. If you counter a daze with a Spell Snare or a Spell Pierce, stop playing magic now).

Tinefol

10-27-2010, 09:38 AM

Spell Pierce is conditional. It can be useful in mid game, but most of the time only if you run the mana denial, which this deck lagerly doesn't.
You don't want to have or topdeck useless cards. SP is more often than not dead mid game already. Snare always hits what it is supposed to hit. Ok SP stops Survival just as fine on turn2. But on turn 3 they're likely to have a mana-dork + lands, which is enough to pay 2 in addition. Snare hits it just fine.

SP is at high use in decks that provide mana denial and high pressure, which requires immedate actions from opponent, not letting him slow roll his answers, having enough mana to pay for conditional counters. Which is why it is good in Merfolk, and generally, in tempo decks. Landstill isn't one of them.

GGoober

10-27-2010, 10:32 AM

As Tinefol mentioned above, and similarly as ChiiMagic indirectly implied with why he still plays Counterspell over Spell Snare. Landstill is a slow deck. It does not set up fast soft locks or win conditions like Counterbalance, SnT, Survival, Tempo Thresh etc. Your cards in the deck have to do a lot, and by a lot, we mean that it has to be as diverse and flexible yet answer threats firmly.

Spell Pierce is a great card in Legacy, but in Landstill where the deck is slow and seeks to slow roll into turns 4-7 before it starts winning, Spell Pierce is not relevant most of the time when the deck is facing to stabilize against creatures. The only situation where I see Spell Pierce being relevant are the Enchantress/Combo/Stax matchup, but only as a supplement card to Counterspell/EE etc. It definitely helps the combo matchup, which is STILL a bad matchup for Landstill.

A thing to note about Landstill is that you don't have to counter everything. It all depends on your deck design. If you run Wish/EE/Academy Ruins/Intuition in any combination, or even additional creature removal such as Path/Fire//Ice/Edicts in any combination, you can afford to let certain creatures slip past. I would even go ahead and say that if you're on the play and playing against Vengevival, you can occassionally allow Survival to slip past then blow it up with EE and still be fine. It depends on the deck you're playing against and the situation. Often times, playing against Zoo/tribal decks, I would intentionally let creatures slip by, take about 5-8 points of damage before blowing the whole field with a single EE just to make the most out of the card. This strategy, again, is only possible if you design your deck to deal with the initial backlash of damage e.g. Cunning Wish with Pulse or a super win-condition/lock that is inevitable e.g. StP on Scepter or Scepter-Chant or Recurring EEs etc.

@ChiiMagic: Any updates to your list? Are Peacekeepers working out for you? Are the Descendants in the SB stronger than other lifegaining cards e.g. Pulse of the fields? I've stopped playing Scepter-Chant for awhile to experiment with personal 'landstill' lists. In particular, are you still playing 2 Chants 2 Fire//Ice 2 Crucibles main? I'll follow up with that when I have more results. Designing outside the core of Landstill is pretty tough considering the deck has a historic success with certain collections of cards. But I'm always willing to test new things.

thefreakaccident

10-30-2010, 12:03 AM

Here's a 4c list I've been tinkering around with... It uses the punishing fire/burnwillows combo in conjunction with humility.

lands//25
4 tundra
1 tropical island
2 volcanic island
4 grove of the burnwillows
1 plateau
4 flooded strand
1 island
1 tolarua west
1 plains
4 mishra's factory
2 polluted delta

creature control//13
2 humility
3 engineered explosives
4 swords to plowshares
4 punishing fires

spells//22
4 brainstorm
3 jace, the mind sculpter
4 standstill
1 life from the loam
4 force of will
3 counterspell
3 spell snare

The deck has been testing really good against agro in general, but sometimes too many wastelands can spell total disaster... Anybody have any suggestions about making the manabase reliable?

Mana Drain

10-30-2010, 01:36 AM

@thefreakaccident

Could a Grove and the Tolaria West be turned into fetches? I'm thinking turn them into Scalding Tarns along with the 2 Deltas. If somebody sides in Needles against you they're going to be naming EE or Jace or Factory, not a fetch. 1 Grove triggers all your Fires, so the rest just become more non-Islands/non-Plains. West is just slow and you have plenty of redundancy in the deck. The full 8 fetch help with mana consistency, wasteland defence, and power up Loam, BS, and Jace.

How has the list farred against Fish? CB?

Also, nice list. Interesting engine (Punishing Fire). Just hope you have 2-3 Firespout in the board, correct?

klaus

10-30-2010, 08:53 AM

nice list, freakaccident.
here's what I'd do about your manabase:

4 flooded strand
2 Scalding Tarn (Delta doesn't fetch Plateau)
1 Windswept Heath ------------- Yes. Heath. It fetches every land in your deck barring Basic Island and Volc, but most importantly, other than Tarn/ Rainforest, it gets you: Basic Plains. Heath>Mesa cause the latter won't get you Tropical Island.

4 tundra
1 plateau
1 tropical island
1 volcanic island -------------- I went down to 5 red sources because you won't be able to efficiently do the combo trick before turn 10 or so. At that point you should control 2 red sources anyway. Also added a fetchland, so I lowered the virtual red count by merely 1, from 13 to 12, which is plenty, considering you have just 4 red spells in the MD.

2 island-------------------- the second Island is mandatory. I'd even consider adding a third.
1 plains

3 grove of the burnwillows ------------------see Volcanic explanation
4 mishra's factory
---
So these are 24 mana sources, leaving you one flex slot, which could be filled with Academy Ruins, Basic Island or the 8th fetchland (Tarn).
---
Also, here's a SB approach for an open meta:

3 Firespout
3 Spell Pierce
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Krosan Grip (you will mostly need it against non-wasteland decks: CB.dec, Enchantress, Affinity_2.0, so that singleton Trop is fine)
4 Faerie Macabre --------------debatable choice, but since Relic is a nono..
1 Flex Slot, possibly a lifegainer. Pulse of the Fields looks entertaining with Groves.

---
EDIT: I'm almost certain, that 25th land should be Sensei's Divining Top! It will find you land if you need it AND make it easier to assemble the combo.
Also 24 land looks rock solid, considering there's a Loam somewhere in there too.

thefreakaccident

10-30-2010, 04:13 PM

So, here's the list with everyones suggestions:

lands//25
4 tundra
1 tropical island
2 volcanic island
3 grove of the burnwillows
1 plateau
4 flooded strand
2 island
1 plains
4 mishra's factory
2 scalding tarn
1 arid mesa

creature control//13
2 humility
3 engineered explosives
4 swords to plowshares
4 punishing fires

spells//22
4 brainstorm
3 jace, the mind sculpter
4 standstill
1 life from the loam
4 force of will
3 counterspell
3 spell snare

sideboard//
3 krosan grip
3 firespout
4 spell pierce/blasts
5 graveyard hate, some mix of crypts/macabres... I wouldn't run relic b/c of the fires/loam.

The Folk matchup has been great, as the fires combo generally shuts them down by itself... Sometimes your forced to slow roll b/c of their mutas, but as long as you sit back and press your advantage you will win. The lists that run 1-2 ports in addition to wasteland hurt a lot though, especially if they draw 2-3 wastes relatively early.

Big zoo can be troublesome as the punishing fires combo sometimes doesn't kill their large creatures, but the zoo lists with stepp lynx and such can be easily shut down with well timed removal... The lists running KotR + waste can sometimes screw over the engine and just win right out if you can't land a humility... So I'd say that the zoo MU kind of depends on their list and the draws of both players.

Counterbalance decks vary a lot nowadays...

If they try to win with a bunch of dudes (i.e. heirarch/goyf/whathaveyou) then you're just fine, but if they try to win with jace you either draw fire/willows or lose, as you have nothing to attack with besides factories (which will get sword's 99/100 times)... You can sacrifice your own jace to kill theirs but it is extremely painful as a player to have to do that.

Try your best to get the counterbalance/top lock off the table, as the deck becomes far more resilient with it down.

konsultant

10-30-2010, 05:30 PM

Where is konsultant and all of the landstill old timers, we need their expertise in this changing metagame

Alas I am just running Vengevines. I've won/split in finals pretty much every week at my local for the last 3 months with Vengevines. It's of course a drastically different build than I see anyone else playing but it's been working well enough for me.

There are 4 glaring problems for Landstill right now;

1. The prevalence of Wasteland, the card is pretty much the most played card in Legacy and no matter how well a mana base is designed Landstill will always be a multicolor control deck and Wasteland will always have the potential to steal games from Landstill. Running a surplus of basics can help and hinder you as it dodge's Wasteland but forces you to draw all the colors you need with less duals/fetch's. If you increase the land count it creates more mana flooding hands and does nothing to help the tempo loss of being hit by Wasteland while they have a man in play.

2. Spell Pierce. This card was the nail in the coffin for me; it is difficult but not impossable to play around Daze from the tempo decks but Spell Pierce is pretty much a hard counter for 1 mana vs Landstill for the first 5-8 turns whitch is where we either lose the game or stablize.

3. The general speed and power level of the cards in the format, we can lose with out ever having a turn vs multiple different combo decks. 2 and 3 mana creatures in the format kill us in 2-5 hits putting a ton of pressure on us to stop every single creature as fast as possable eliminating our ability to gain card advantage or atleast tempo through cards like Wrath of God.

4. Most of all our "combo" of manlands and Standstills is just not that powerful anymore. People don't run crappy red/green beat down decks anymore. Every experienced Legacy player is very experienced playing vs Landstill, they know all of our tricks. It makes it nearly impossable to outplay opponents. The fact that Merfolk steals our "combo" and does it better than Landstill really hurts us. Merfolk is beatable but requires a very dedicated plan and numerous sllots dedicated to creature removal that are nearly worthless in alot of other match ups.

All this adds up to one thing; it is nearly impossable to consistently win in Legacy. Too many things nead to fall perfectly into place for Landstill to win each game. Yes Landstill can beat any deck in the format but it can also lose to every single deck in the format. Landstill has no auto wins anymore. Anything you want to beat requires dedicated side boarding and with only 15 slots vs the entire field of competitive Legacy you just don't have the room to beat every deck anymore. So all it takes is one bad match up and one round of bad luck and you are out. Landstill's tools are just very outdated and are not versatile enough for what is in Legacy right now. Like I said you can beat any individual match up you want all day long with proper side boarding but finding that key pile of cards that will take down everything just doesn't seem possable anymore. Everything I have tried for the last several months that seemed like it was capable of winning would have huge issues vs the tempo decks in the format.

In my case atleast I just built a more consistent, faster deck with considerably more options where my opponents don't know every card in my deck when we sit down.

Mana Drain

10-30-2010, 06:40 PM

Well thought out and detailed explanation of Landstill in the current metagame.

Konsultant, I agree with the points you make regarding threats to Landstills existence, but don't believe they make the deck Tier 2 or worse.

1) Wasteland is by far the most run card in the format, you are very correct, and every single competitive deck runs non-basics. This is not new, and waste has been a threat for longer than Legacy has been in existence. Losing a land drop is bad news, but most landstill lists run 23-24 land, plus 4 BS, many run 2 Tops, some run Crucible and some run Loam. This is in addition to a modified mana-curve putting more emphasis on early game stabilization rather than late-game dominance. Most importantly, Waste is only scary when backed up by a fast clock. And contrary to popular belief, it is not always backed up by T2 Vengevine, multiple Merfolk, or an army of Tarmogoyfs/Nimble Mongeese. If you're running the common UWx, then you have 8 fetch, and atleast 3 Tundra to supply your white mana for Swords/Path. It only takes 1 red for a Firespout sweep. Also, not cracking your fetches when unnecessary is a big part of playing against wasteland. My personal build only runs 4 Jace for the 4+ mana slot, so getting to 3-4 (for Daze protection, my own Spell Pierce/Spell Snare mana) is all I need to function under a clock. If the Madness/Merfolk/Tempo deck gets their nut draw, chances are you lose just like any other blue deck, regardless of your 60.

2) Spell Pierce is a double-edged sword. While it is generally a hard counter against us, it is generally a hard counter against other decks engines also. I used to hate running it when my meta was slower, but now that I fight a lot of Tempo/Madness/Merfolk and a smigin of Combo, I love it. It is a beating against you, but also a beating against Survival, Aether Vial, opposing Standstills, other planeswalkers, etc. It's just a new addition to the metagame and the deck must adapt, improvise, and overcome like it has in years past.

3) Path was printed a couple sets ago, and it's like Swords 5-7. Really good at hitting Knights, Goofy, Vines and being a generally good piece of cheap spot removal that is on-color. Spell Pierce is also in the format, and it hurts Combo about *infinity* times worse than it does us. Spell Snare is amazing right now, and counters Survival, Goofy, Pridmage, CB, Confidant, blah, blah, blah. Seriously, there is no shortage of great 1 mana spells right now. In using them, you lose some late-game power, but gain a tremendous amount of early-game interactivity. We must adapt.

4) The manland-Standstill trick is definitely not as cool as it used to be, but standstill is still a great draw engine against Zoo, CB, Combo, GW Survival and pretty much anything that isn't Merfolk or Goblins. Mishra's Factory is at an all-time high in awesomeness, protecting Jace and Life for a followed up sweeper is bad-ass. Trading with Wild Nacatl, Vines, and a million other small dudes is great. If anything, opponents will almost always waste your Factory instead of a dual, which I'm perfectly fine with.

It's hard out there for Landstill, but not impossible. You do need to dedicate a lot of SB hate to the most common and dangerous matchups i.e. Merfolk, Madness, Combo, and U-based Tempo strategies. EE is still a great and versatile answer, especially when backed up by 6-7 Sword effects and Firespout to give you the time to use it. Jace is one of the top 5 cards in the format, and single-handedly answers the age-old problem of winning in a 40 minute round. To anybody who is not running at least 2, please reconsider. Firespout is an amazing sweeper still, killing everything in Madness, everything in Merfolk (if you let Merfolk get 3 lords out against you, the problem is you, not the deck), the little dudes in Zoo, and a host of other random dudes. In fact, it kills everything relevant in the format, sans Goofy, Knight, and flyers (duh) unless you splash green.

Cards like Counterspell and Eternal Dragon I agree are slow and outdated for the current meta, but there are plenty of options in our colors for a control deck to adapt. For reference, here is my current UWrg Landstill list that I have been playing with. Very similar to my Ubgw Deedstill list in the other thread (Also a valid metagame option!). Thus far I can say that with my sideboard, I have enjoyed success against UG Madness, multiple variants of Merfolk, Storm-based Combo, and have helped even the odds with Tempo decks like Faeries and Canadian Thresh.

"JaceStill"

4 Strand
3 Tarn
1 Mesa
4 Tundra
3 Volcanic
1 Tropical
1 Island
1 Plains
4 Factory
1 Ruins

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
4 Jace, the Baddest Mother-Fucker Around
4 Swords
2 Path
2 Firespout
4 Engineered Explosives
3 Spell Snare
3 Spell Pierce
3 Sensei's Machine of Unequaled Card-Quality

Sideboard

1 Path
2 Firespout
3 Peacekeeper (results in more Scoops than T1 Chalice of the Void)
2 Krosan Grip
3 Pithing Needle (Highly underrated)
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Spell Pierce

The 3rd Top becomes an Island from time to time, but otherwise, the list is my mainstay. The Zoo matchup has been sacrificed for better game against the previously mentioned Tier 1 archtypes. It all comes down to adapting the control deck to deal with the major threats in the metagame.
Some effectiveness is lost against other matchups, but this is natural and necessary for survival in a competitive environment. You have to decide which decks you want to focus on beating based on prevalence.

Also, good luck with Vengevines! I played UG Madness for about 2 months and gave the deck up due to a rise in hate from my local area. May many T2 Vengevine hands be given to you comrade!

galeng

10-31-2010, 04:50 PM

4 Jace, the Baddest Mother-Fucker Around

3 Sensei's Machine of Unequaled Card-Quality

Potential (new)unhinged card namings imo.

Felidae

10-31-2010, 06:51 PM

I played at the GP Bochum Legacy Event today and got a rather disapointing 27th place out of 192 players.

R1: 1-1 vs Zoo
R2: 1-2 vs NO Bant (well I lost G1 to the Deckcheck...)
R3: 2-0 vs Show'nTell Emrakul.dec
R4: 2-1 vs Thopter Combo
R5: 2-0 vs Survival Zoo
R6: 2-0 vs Zoo
R7: 0-2 vs Goblins
R8: 2-1 vs Aggro Loam
5-2-1

I played a slightly modified version of my usual UWb LS, with Peacekeeper in the Sideboard against Vengevine Survival, dunno if it is worth the slots, as I couldn't test them at all.

A short report will follow tomorrow, as I'm jsut to tired right now.

GGoober

11-01-2010, 10:55 AM

I've been working on PFires in control lists for the past few months. Still tweaking to optimize but I think the below list is an innovative take on solving certain problematic matchups landstill faces: Merfolks, Combo, Zoo. Scepter-chant was a great innovation off-radar list that has served me well, but I'm experimenting with this list (I call it the Punisher).

It's still a landstill list (aka 3-4 Standstill, 4 Planeswalker, counters/removals, no creatures). The basic idea was to play PFires + Groves, a combo that is used as a simple removal spell on Bob/Hierarch/Fish/Gobs early game, but builds up into an inevitable win-condition and stabilizing card against aggro and control decks. Then the next strategy was to answer the non-aggro matchup, hence including in Counterbalance, Top + counterbalance naturally went in, and Top is still a solid card in Landstill. A lot of times, Top isn't justified and played and I think Top is bad in Landstill without Counterbalance because it is not serving another purpose (with Counterbalance) and could have been a more useful slot instead of a slow card, but with Counterbalance, we do solve a number of issues the deck faces: combo/burn etc.

Notes: Intuition seems weak occasionally, but after real-life testing, it's been very powerful. The ability to go EOT Intuition -> 3 Counterbalance and set up your lock after that is great, or Intuition for various lands/punishing fire when crucible is out or grab Punishing Fires when you have a Grove in play is quite devastating, or the classic Ruins/EE/Crucible depending on what you have in hand/play. It could be replaced with more business spell like Humility though on the other hand.

Here's a 4c list I've been tinkering around with... It uses the punishing fire/burnwillows combo in conjunction with humility.

lands//25
4 tundra
1 tropical island
2 volcanic island
4 grove of the burnwillows
1 plateau
4 flooded strand
1 island
1 tolarua west
1 plains
4 mishra's factory
2 polluted delta

creature control//13
2 humility
3 engineered explosives
4 swords to plowshares
4 punishing fires

spells//22
4 brainstorm
3 jace, the mind sculpter
4 standstill
1 life from the loam
4 force of will
3 counterspell
3 spell snare

The deck has been testing really good against agro in general, but sometimes too many wastelands can spell total disaster... Anybody have any suggestions about making the manabase reliable?

The list I top2'd at my local tourney (small showing ~ 10-12 people, and I got a bye in match 1 so it's not too representative of what the deck is capable of at this point)

lands//23
3 tundra
2 volcanic island
2 grove of the burnwillows
1 plateau
4 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
3 island
1 plains
4 mishra's factory
1 Academy Ruins

creature control//10
1 engineered explosives
4 swords to plowshares
3 punishing fires
2 Firespout

spells//28
4 brainstorm
2 jace, the mind sculpter
2 Elspeth Knight Errant
3 standstill
2 Crucible
4 force of will
3 counterspell
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Intuition

SB:
3 Peacekeeper
3 Relic
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 EE
2 Ray of Revelation
3 Spell Pierce
2 Pithing Needle

Match 1: Bye
Match 2: Goblins (PFires + StP + Firespout = no chance)
Match 3: TES (lost game 1, won game 2, lost game 3. I can't imagine fighting TES with chants without Counterbalance or Scepter-Chant, they're way too resilient these days)
Match 4: Aggro Loam (lost in two. Decks with Waste RECURSION are still horrible, never saw my relics game 2, had 1 crypt but wasn't enough, also never saw my Counterbalances)
Match 5 (Top 4): TES (won game 1 closely, blind flipped 1cmc spell FTW after going through counterwars v.s. Chant v.s. Dark Ritual on stack trying to brainstorm 1cmc on top of library when he's at 2 life, lost game 2, won game 3 with Counterbalance + Jace + Top + Crucible).
Match 6: Aggro-Loam (same player, we agreed to draw, I gladly accept lol)

2 Aggro-Loam, 2 TES... I doubt a traditional shell could have even won much games in this tourney. Man I hate Aggro-Loam.

I'm still a strong believer of Landstill despite all the doomsayings that the deck isn't well-positioned. I think despite the tremendous speed of Vengevival, Landstill still has answers to it. I'm currently playing Ray of Revelation in the SB and they are a turn faster, and can answer up to 2x2=4 Survivals, being fetchable by Intuition helps too. My thoughts for Landstill looking at the meta:

1) Wasteland is everywhere. I was running 2-3 basics and that just DID NOT work. You need about 4 to survive. You simply cannot afford to miss 2 land drop, getting wasted one time is still recoverable but if they luck-sack 2 wastes, which they always do for some reason you're in bad shape.

2) Freak, I tried Loam in Landstill but if G is not part of your tri-color, but is a splashed 4th color, it is dangerous to play Loam for two reasons: You aren't abusing Loam as well as decks like Lands/Aggro-loam so Loam actually mills away important cards. Against decks with Wastelands, if G is not your tri-color but your fourth, you'll run into more situations where fetching UG will hurt you more. Granted you have 4 Groves, but the Groves are actually bad lands in the early game. You want UW and UR lands to setup for couunterspell's UU. This is my experience. I realy want to play Loam over Crucible but I just can't. Loam frees up one more maindeck slot which is invaluable but at the moment it creates more stability issues. I am a strong advocate of Cruciblesx2. I've used to play and cut them off and put them in, but I'm convinced this is the sole card that wins alot of matchups. If you analyzed Landstill's performance, you'll notice that you lose when you miss a critical land-drop or get wasted. Crucible will make sure that you will keep landdrops and nullify wasteland.dec based strategy. In my build, Crucible + Top + Fetch becomes an inevitable card advantage engine (drawing '2 cards' everyturn i.e. make sure you don't draw lands). With Counterbalance in play, you are digging 6 cards deep per spell your opponent casts. Crucible is also much easier to cast and doesn't require you to keep tapping out to recycle lands (one big problem with Loam). Note that Loam is better in Countertop decks than Landstill since Countertop can afford to tap out while Landstill can't (we don't have Countertop). But even with Counterbalance in my list, Crucible is far outperforming Loam. It's free, no mana needed to activate, and it sits there and negates strategy, recycles Factories/Fetches, get tons of mana, win the resource war and stabilize.

3) Firespout is terrible in my list. With Punishing Fire, you are winning your tribal matchups. PFire won't do much against Zoo until the mid-game when you are able to start using it twice per target. Firespout is still good, but aside from Tribal Aggro taken care by PFires, it is still fairly weak aagainst newer Zoo lists (bigger creatures), Knights, Goyfs, Aggro-Loam duds. I'm taking the x2 Firespout out for +1 EE and +1 Top. The EEs will be more useful against big knights/crushers/goyfs yet be able to answer Survival/Counterbalance/Enchantress/artifacts. That was something I learned from seeing Firespout either being a useless card or a win-more card (since if you have access to a single PFires + Groves, you're in good shape).

4) The combo matchup is greatly improved with my new list. Landstill simply cannot beat TES even postboard if it does not run Counterbalance or Scepter-Chant. TES will just duress/Chant off and since you don't run Daze, you don't have enough counters-mana-available ratio to counter a critical turn. You need to Counterbalance or Chant them in this matchup. The burn/Zoo matchup is improved with Countertop. The weak matchups are now: Aggro-Loam. On paper it shoudl be improved since counterbalance locks Loam out, but Aggro-Loam is solid in answers: Pulse/EE. It's a tough matchup. 3-4 Relic SB should help but I didn't see them at all. I think aggro-loam can only be hated out with a UWb build so I'm just going to ignore this matchup, ugh not to mention them using Worm Harvest against you...

@Felidae: Hope to hear your report soon! We havne't had some discussions/report so we would all like to know how the deck is faring in specific-said meta.

PascalF

11-01-2010, 12:47 PM

On the 24th I won a small tournament (23 players) with the following List,
beating an Eldrazi tribal deck, Sligh, UBr Dreadnought-Counterbalance, U/G Vengevine Survival and Reanimator.

Lands 25
2 Island
2 Plains

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta

1 Savannah
1 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea

4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland

Spells
2 Humility
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill

3 Engineered Explosives
2 Pernicious Deed
4 Swords to Plowshares

3 Spell Snare
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

Sideboard
3 Peacekeeper
3 Extirpate
3 Meddling Mage
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Krosan Grip
2 Spell Pierce

I got the Idea of a light splash for deed etc from Christoper Waltons 10th place list at the SCG Open Nashville.

Maindeck:
The Wastelands weren`t amazing, but they weren`t bad either.
Still, I`m going to test a list with academy ruins and 2 other Lands instead.

Spell Snare was good, but spell pierce came in against most opponents.
I think either one is a defensible maindeck choice.

SB:

I never brought the meddling mages in.

Spell pierce came in against Sligh, UBR Dreadnought, Survival and Reanimator.

Extirpate came in against Survival and Reanimator.

Peacekeeper came in against Survival and UBR Dreadnought (not sure if that
was the right call, but I didn`t see any removal from him)

Krosan Grip came in against UBR Dreadnought.

Relic came in against Reanimator, but I never drew it.

GGoober

11-01-2010, 02:42 PM

I like the list, looks like a beating, 2 deeds seems strong and also able to EE@4 when needed gives some flexibility. 25 lands make sense for not playing with Crucible/Loam. Was 7 colorless a problem giving awkward mana problems? I'm on the edge of cutting Wasteland despite running Crucible since I really hate seeing hands with 2 colorless + 1 colored sources. I feel that Humility and/or Peacekeeper is a little weird though. Shoudn't Humility answer the matchups where Peacekeeper can aside from risk getting gripped? Humility + Peacekeeper in the same deck might lead to multiple draws but I guess that's what you want against those matchups i.e. draw as many Humility/Peacekeeper as you can. I think Peacekeeper is going to be very good for awhile and then become less powerful when people convert their Grips to Wipe Aways, but I'm not sure if the meta is shifting there yet (Wiping away countertop does nothing so Grip might still be around).

PascalF

11-01-2010, 04:43 PM

@Manabase:
The Manabase held up nicely, though I was careful with my fetches/brainstorms/mulligans.
The maindeck is almost completly U/W and you can cast deed and just leave
it on the board, so it should be fine.
But obviously I didn`t play against extremly heavy mana disruption.

@Humility/Peacekeeper:
The Deck/SB is weighted somewhat against the Vengevine Survival matchup since
I expected them to be out in force.
Against Survival having both is somewhat redundant, but Peacekeeper is much
stronger against merfolk. It only needs 1 basic plains, it costs 1 mana less
and it doesn`t get hit by spell pierce. This way you minimize the
effect of their mana disruption.

@wipe away:
Imho the card won`t be as popular as Grip for two reasons:
1)It`s not as splashable.
2)It doesn`t permanently answer the Card. If they bounce the Peacekeeper
they have to kill you right there/have a counterspell in addition or else
they`re back to square one.

Just like with Grip you can´t really do anything about it, except play around it
(keep killing their creatures even while the lock is up/win before they can recover)
or possibly board in meddling mage.
Sometimes it will just wreck you no matter which permanent you`re playing.

The Treefolk Master

11-01-2010, 05:12 PM

I got the Idea of a light splash for deed etc from Christoper Waltons 10th place list at the SCG Open Nashville.

His list ran Moat, are you not running it because you don't have any or for any other reasons?

Felidae

11-01-2010, 05:54 PM

So here is my report of try and error / rise and fall at the GP Bochum:

Lets start with the list:
As usual I expected a lot of Merfolk (as it is a very popular deck all around the area), Zoo (the obvious counterpart for Fish) and Survival Decks in any variation. While playtesting various UWb / UWr versions I looked a couple of pages back and found the discussion about Peacekeeper vs Preacher. At that time I didn't liked him, comapred to my beloved Preachers, however after testing him against Vengevine Survival and Merfolk I really started to like this guy, at least in said MU's.
The next thing I looked at was my Sideboard and therefor the splash. As I expected an open Meta I wanted a tool that can handle everything, from creature to planeswalker over to lands, well you can guess about wich card I talk.
So I decided to play the following Board:
2 Peacekeeper
2 Vindicate
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormnonds Crypt
2 Negate
3 Hydroblast
3 Meddling Mage

All there was left, the maindeck...
The biggest issue for this field would probably be the manabase, as there are so many tempo decks that can easiely hurt us via Stifle or Wasteland, so I wanted a strong, yet simple manabase that is able to recover from some Wastelands. As the core of my deck is allways UW I kept the splash colors at a minimum.

I came up with this:
4 Island
2 Plains
4 Tundra
1 Glavier Fortress
1 Scrubland
1 Underground Sea
4 Flooded Strand
4 Mishras Factory
2 Wasteland
1 Eternal Dragon

For the remaining 36/37 cards I kept it simple, using the typical UW stuff and 4cc bombs.

4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
1 Fact or Fiction

4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare

4 Swords to Plowshare
1 Path to Exile
1 Wrath of God
1 Day of Judgement
2 Humility
3 Engineered Explosives

2 Jace, the Mindsculptor
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
2 Decree of Justice
1 Crucible of Worlds

So without further ado, lets start with the report:

Round 1: Zoo
Game 1: I lose the dieroll and he leads with Taiga and Nacatle, after one swing for 3 he pass the turn so I sword the cat eot to play my Standstill on my turn, however he has 2 Bolts in response, burning me down to 10 life. In his turn he casts a KotR, but I have the Path. In his next turn he goes for another Cat and I let it resolve, being able to cast Elspeth in my round. He also casts an Chainlightning wich I let resolve, as I didn't want to waste my Force for it. So I cast Elspeth in my turn and start to vomid out token. We struggle for a while, as my token chump his cat while his other creatures die to point removal. After some turns he's at 5 life with only 1 card left in his hand, however he has a Libary in play that can provide him with 1 more card. I have a Force, a Brainstorm and a Factory left in my hand. I pass the turn, he draws 1 cards, going down to 1 and goes for it: Fireblast -> Brainstorm into Humility, Island and Standstill, so I had two opptions here: Force it and hope that he didn't draw enough burn to finish me off or let it resolve and hold Force for his next spell. I decide to Force it, as he still had a Taiga left, wich means that a PoP would kill him as well. So he just goes for Fireblast nr.2 followed by PoP, nice mister.

Game 2: I start with Plains, he goes for the raging Ape, wich eats a Sword. His turn 2 Goyf meet a Spell Snare and I'm able to resolve Crucible, hoping that he has the Grip so I can resolve my Humility without so much pressure. He apparently didn't saw a reason to play Grip and lay down 2 guys, who die to a Wrath next turn. As my 4th land was Wasteland that could screw his entire manabase he decided that it would now be a good idea to grip my Crucible, clearing the path for Humility. I foolowed that up with a FoF for Elspeth, Decree and Standstill, which let him forfeit soon after.

Game 3: With only 10 minutes left we start into the last game (guess we wasted to much time trashtalking) and neither of us could find any pressure, so we part with a draw.

0-0-1

Round 2: NO Bant
Game 1: I missed 3 Explosives in my Decklist so I get a gamelose. To explain the missing EE's: I didn't know that they had prepaired sheets for the decklist, so I scribbled it downt in the last seconds during the seedings.

Game 2: I lead with Island, followed up with another, as I'd only saw a Fetchland on his Side. He played a Tropical and a Top in his turn, making it pretty ovious to guess wich deck he was piloting. On my turn 3 I played a Standstill and he fetched eot for a Dryad Arbor, so I knew that he was running NO. After 1 swing the poor Dryad died to a Wasteland and after dropping Mishra the next turn he broke the Standstill with a Brainstorm, forcing me to discard a PtE. He then goes for Counterbalance, wich met Spell Snare and Tarmogoyf, who met StP.
On my turn I try to lure out his Force with Jace (as I got Elspeth and Humility left), however he doesn't seem to have a force so I start to fadeseel. In his next turn he goes for Hierach and Warmonk, with only 1 card left in his hand. Humility and Elspeth won the game 2 turns later.

Game 3: I would love to tell an epic story, but I simply didn't found my 4th land and died to a Kotr and a Pridemage.

0-1-1

At this moment I was very frustrated, to lose against a Bantdeck while my mates all got a 2-0 start. So I decided to give my best to win everything from now on, however I stopped taking notes, as I didn't expect to write a report anymore.

Round 3: Show and Tell Emrakul.dec

Game 1: After I saw only lands (Usea and Trop) plus Brainstorms from him in the early turns I set him on BUG LS, however after he tried to resolve a Limdouls Vault I knew that he was running some sort of combo. His Mosswort Bridge next turn made it clear. However I was able to resolve Elspeth and attack with flying Fatorys, as he had decide to take my Humility with his Thougtseize. on His last turn he goes for the Nought and I pathed it in respomse to the Bridge.
Game 2: Meddling Mage on Dreadnought and Meddling Mage on Show and Tell just won this one.

1-1-1

Round 4: Thopter Combo

Game 1: We had a decent fight over his Jace and CB, however his top kept filtering into buisness for him and with 4 life left he finaly assembeld the combo.

Game 2: Yet again we fought over some cards like Elspeth or Jace, but somehow I sneaked my Crucible into play and set up the Wastelock. A couple of flying soldiers won this game.

Game3: My opponents starts to play really slowly and I didn't knew if I should call a Judge over or not, but I decided to politly ask him if he could play a bit faster, like in the last games, and he really speeded his play up, wich didn't helped him to deal with Jace, even as he tried everything, from Pithing Needle to Explosiv on 4.

2-1-1

Round 5: Survival Zoo

Game1: Again we trashtalk during the hole game, and I start to notice a pattern: whenever Stefan Czolk (spirit of the wretch) is sitting next to me (like in R1) I somehow get sucked into this hole trashtalking theme, dunno why.
So back to the game:
Game 1: Humility seems to be a good call against a Zoo deck with a lot creatures and less burn. Oh and DoJ is awesome, too.

Game2: Humility is just that good, and Elspeth isn't bad, either.

3-1-1

Round 6: Zoo

Game1: He leads with Taiga into Nacatle so I look into my hand, filled with cheap removal and a Standstill to benefit from and empty board, nice. His Nacatle eats a Sword , however with my freshly drawn Wrath I decide to let him resolve an Ape to trade x for 1. He falled for it as he played a Goyf and another Ape in his next turn. At the now empy board I throw my Standstill and DoJ for a couple of tokens. He isn't able to recover.

Game2: If Zoo hasn't got a turn 1 dude you are quite positiv to win the game.

4-1-1

So we had 2 Rounds left and a 6-1-1 record would ensure me Top 16 (meaning at least a Display Futuresight).

Round 7: RB Goblins:

Game1: I kept a rather slow hand and he just steamrolls me with annoying Goblins.

Game2: We fought a decent fight, however his Vial kept chaining Ringleaders who also kept digging for mor Ringleaders. At one point I made a crucial mistake wich cost me the game: He had Vial at 5 and I knew that he had a SGC in his hand (due to Ringleader), his other cards on the board are a Matron, a Ringleader, a Warchief and a Chieftain. I have Elspeth and 6 tokens (thanks to DoJ) and Explosiv at 3 and a Sword for his SGC in my hand. As he used his Vial I should have respond with cracking the Explosiv, however I missed it, and he throws himself and 2 Goblins at my head, leaving me with 7 life. Elspeth reaches the ultimate and a second copy lands down, so I felt pretty confortable. He rippes his second SGC off the top, Extirpates away my last StP's and leaving me with 1 Hydroblast, 2 Wraths and 2 Humilitys to deal with his SGC, as he could kill me the next turn. I draw Brainstorm, and find: Flooded Strand, Island , Standstill. So SGC throws 4 tokens at my head and I die.

4-2-1

Round 8: RG Loam

Game 1: Mulligan to 4 as I never saw a single land. He leads with Mox Diamond, Taiga and Goyf, so I know what he was playing. As I didn't play anything else except a lonely Factory I scoop after he played his first Wasteland.

Game 2: MM on Loam + Elspeth won the game.

Game 3: He leads with Chalice 1 and 2 Mox Diamons, while I just looked at the Explosiv in my hand. He goes for Loam but I had a Relic, ready to remove his yard. After a Meddling Mage shut his Loam down once more and a Crucible + Wasteland are threating his Manabse he scoopes it up.

5-2-1

so I end up on 27th place, winning 6 packs of SOM.

pros:
- awesome tourney
- my mates for letting me borrow Jace and Usea
- meeting LSV, Saito, Kibler and a couple more
- almost recovering from 0-1-1 start
slops:
- no time to get my Meddling Mages signed by Mr. Möller (why do you had to close after the last round of the tourney =/ )
- losing against the Deckcheck
- losing against Goblins
- not much place for every player, our chaires did allways touch each other

cheers

Felidae

GGoober

11-02-2010, 12:20 PM

Nice report Felidae, pity the game loss due to the EE in SB costed a match!

I have some questions because I have been running Decrees in and out but in most situations I decide to not play with them. It strongly supports standstill but I feel that sometimes it's a little slow in stabilizing. It's always awesome when followed up with Elspeth (even better with Elspeth 2 although Elspeth 1 is still stronger because she wins faster and grows bigger). I'm just wondering if you are using Decrees to win or to stabilize in most situations.

Did Peacekeeper do anything for you during the tourney? I am running 3 but have not boarded them in yet since I haven't faced Merfolks/Emrakul/NOGenitus in awhile. Yeah losing to Goblins is sadface especially with all those Hydroblast, makes you think of how powerful Extirpate is right now in Goblins against the meta (Survival) and still be useful against control, at least when I played against black decks, Extirpate on StP was quite painful e.g. against Eva's big dudes.

How did you find WoG/Day? Do you think if you played UWr you'd play Wrath over Firespout? I think Firespout has been weak for me in testing and I would prefer WoG over it. I have an issue with EDragon, mainly addressed from "What if EDragon is Card-X". If you marked EDragon as Card-X where X is the 24th land, or any other spell, do you find yourself just cycling EDragon to grab a land? Or are there usually enough lands in your hand where EDragon is just grabbing extra lands i.e. EDragon could have been a business spell Card-X? Or are you recurring EDragons in your game where he comes back to win-games? (I used to play Edragons and Humility, but found the late-game disynergy to be not worth it). I'm interested in your opinions, basically if you marked EDragon as a mystery card X, what situations does card X functions that you desire most of the time: a land drop? a win-condition that previously fixes your mana? a business spell?

Iron Buddha

11-02-2010, 02:59 PM

Mana Drain

11-03-2010, 02:44 AM

Maybe you are interested in the opinion of a random person:
Decree of Justice is a win-condition first. It is without a doubt the best win-condition you have in your deck. However, Decree of justice will never act as your stabilizing center piece, but merely as a supplement to your stabilizing center-piece. Humility and Vedalken Shackles are stabilizing center pieces; these are the cards that stop Zoo and Goblins. (5 dudes from your DoJ can hardly stop Zoo.) But one card (Humility, etc.) can't stop a whole deck, so it needs DoJ as a supplement. What makes DoJ so great is that as a supplement to your major board-control pieces it is even better than the major board-control piece itself. (2x Humility is much weaker than 1x Humility + 1x DoJ; 2x Vedalken Shackles is not as flexible as 1x Vedalken Shackles + 1x DoJ, as you are dependent on your opponent). It's the extreme flexibility that makes DoJ so great as a supplementary board-control-piece. It is flexible, because of the following reasons:
- it's reliable (it gets around Path to Exile),
- it helps you find the bomb (by drawing a card)
- it can go offensive (it has evasion + it deals quite a lot of damage)
- it plays defensively (much better than a single creature like Tarmogoyf)

I completely disagree with this. DoJ is a win-more, lose-slower card that is only optimal when a Standstill in play. If you have Standstill out and you're playing this deck, chances are that you are winning as it is. All the points you make for DoJ are only applicable in the lategame, when we should be winning anyway, not the early game, where we are struggling to stablize. At 4-5 mana, it is a cantriping fog. Otherwise, it takes 7-8 mana to make DoJ worthwhile, and is easily thwarted/played around by Merfolk, Vengevine, or any deck with Firespout/EE. Jace/Espeth both cost 4 and will make you lose-less and win-soon if unanswered. And they come down 2-3 Turns faster, thus making an actual IMPACT on the gamestate, not just sitting in your hand staring back at you. Both of them are also just better and easier to combo with Standstill.

Shackles is cool in the Goblins match, and against other control-ish decks (if you can get it to resolve/survive). Everywhere else, it's way to slow, and way to easy to ignore/destroy. Merfolk doesn't care, Zoo is too fast and equiped with Pridemage, Vengevine is too fast/doesn't care, and some decks like Aggro-Loam run dudes to big to steal. So in all our tough matchups, it is weak. Plus, your manabase has to be adjusted to accommodate it.

Humility is very badass, but kinda slow and heavy white. Without mutilating you manabase with multiple Plains, it is very difficult to cast against Wasteland decks. Plus, dodging Daze and Spell Pierce, harsh man. It can just end the game, but is often too late or too hard to get to resolve to make an impact against the faster aggro decks.

Felidae

11-03-2010, 09:51 AM

DoJ was allways an amazing card for me, as you are certainly going to win, even if you only use it to stabilize /clear the board (if Humility is in play) the board or chump a singelton Goyf / KotR for some turns. Being able to stabilize is usual the first step to our victory and therefor I'd say that DoJ is a wincondition at any time.
If we are comparing the lategame impact o both Jace and Elspeth or DoJ at turn 5+ then we can assume that DoJ gets stronger every turn and needles to say that if killed countless Jaces with Decree tokens.

I'd not board in Peacekeeper a singleton time, as I'd never got the chance to play the MU's where he matters (i.e. Folk or Survival), however he's ben a solid card during my testing so far, yet I hope that they'll gain some tourney experience soon.

I'd usually mark E.Dragon as my 24th land, beating other control decks and acting as a tutor for black mana if I need it. However if I draw him with 7+ mana and without a Humility in play he gets castet quite freequently. I can understand why many people thing that he's outdated and weak compared to Crucible, however he has proven himself enough in the past to earn a solid place in my list.
As we discussed E.Dragon and Crucible befor I don't want to sum up everything again.

If I played UWr then I'd play WoG in there, too, but Firespout would probably earn 2 Sideboard slots. Firespout was a great card at the beginning, but the meta has evolved to a point where Merfolk can slam down multiple lords in 1 turn and Zoo is used to play around the card and also runs KotR's and Goyfs. Humility + Firespout might be a solid board sweeper, however WoG provides this in a single card.

konsultant

11-03-2010, 11:08 AM

Konsultant, I agree with the points you make regarding threats to Landstills existence, but don't believe they make the deck Tier 2 or worse.

1) Wasteland is by far the most run card in the format, you are very correct, and every single competitive deck runs non-basics. This is not new, and waste has been a threat for longer than Legacy has been in existence. Losing a land drop is bad news, but most landstill lists run 23-24 land, plus 4 BS, many run 2 Tops, some run Crucible and some run Loam. This is in addition to a modified mana-curve putting more emphasis on early game stabilization rather than late-game dominance. Most importantly, Waste is only scary when backed up by a fast clock. And contrary to popular belief, it is not always backed up by T2 Vengevine, multiple Merfolk, or an army of Tarmogoyfs/Nimble Mongeese. If you're running the common UWx, then you have 8 fetch, and atleast 3 Tundra to supply your white mana for Swords/Path. It only takes 1 red for a Firespout sweep. Also, not cracking your fetches when unnecessary is a big part of playing against wasteland. My personal build only runs 4 Jace for the 4+ mana slot, so getting to 3-4 (for Daze protection, my own Spell Pierce/Spell Snare mana) is all I need to function under a clock. If the Madness/Merfolk/Tempo deck gets their nut draw, chances are you lose just like any other blue deck, regardless of your 60.

2) Spell Pierce is a double-edged sword. While it is generally a hard counter against us, it is generally a hard counter against other decks engines also. I used to hate running it when my meta was slower, but now that I fight a lot of Tempo/Madness/Merfolk and a smigin of Combo, I love it. It is a beating against you, but also a beating against Survival, Aether Vial, opposing Standstills, other planeswalkers, etc. It's just a new addition to the metagame and the deck must adapt, improvise, and overcome like it has in years past.

3) Path was printed a couple sets ago, and it's like Swords 5-7. Really good at hitting Knights, Goofy, Vines and being a generally good piece of cheap spot removal that is on-color. Spell Pierce is also in the format, and it hurts Combo about *infinity* times worse than it does us. Spell Snare is amazing right now, and counters Survival, Goofy, Pridmage, CB, Confidant, blah, blah, blah. Seriously, there is no shortage of great 1 mana spells right now. In using them, you lose some late-game power, but gain a tremendous amount of early-game interactivity. We must adapt.

4) The manland-Standstill trick is definitely not as cool as it used to be, but standstill is still a great draw engine against Zoo, CB, Combo, GW Survival and pretty much anything that isn't Merfolk or Goblins. Mishra's Factory is at an all-time high in awesomeness, protecting Jace and Life for a followed up sweeper is bad-ass. Trading with Wild Nacatl, Vines, and a million other small dudes is great. If anything, opponents will almost always waste your Factory instead of a dual, which I'm perfectly fine with.

It's hard out there for Landstill, but not impossible. You do need to dedicate a lot of SB hate to the most common and dangerous matchups i.e. Merfolk, Madness, Combo, and U-based Tempo strategies. EE is still a great and versatile answer, especially when backed up by 6-7 Sword effects and Firespout to give you the time to use it. Jace is one of the top 5 cards in the format, and single-handedly answers the age-old problem of winning in a 40 minute round. To anybody who is not running at least 2, please reconsider. Firespout is an amazing sweeper still, killing everything in Madness, everything in Merfolk (if you let Merfolk get 3 lords out against you, the problem is you, not the deck), the little dudes in Zoo, and a host of other random dudes. In fact, it kills everything relevant in the format, sans Goofy, Knight, and flyers (duh) unless you splash green.

Cards like Counterspell and Eternal Dragon I agree are slow and outdated for the current meta, but there are plenty of options in our colors for a control deck to adapt. For reference, here is my current UWrg Landstill list that I have been playing with. Very similar to my Ubgw Deedstill list in the other thread (Also a valid metagame option!). Thus far I can say that with my sideboard, I have enjoyed success against UG Madness, multiple variants of Merfolk, Storm-based Combo, and have helped even the odds with Tempo decks like Faeries and Canadian Thresh.
The 3rd Top becomes an Island from time to time, but otherwise, the list is my mainstay. The Zoo matchup has been sacrificed for better game against the previously mentioned Tier 1 archtypes. It all comes down to adapting the control deck to deal with the major threats in the metagame.
Some effectiveness is lost against other matchups, but this is natural and necessary for survival in a competitive environment. You have to decide which decks you want to focus on beating based on prevalence.

Also, good luck with Vengevines! I played UG Madness for about 2 months and gave the deck up due to a rise in hate from my local area. May many T2 Vengevine hands be given to you comrade!

It's not a question of what tier the deck falls in really, at least not for me. I play whatever will give me the most consistent wins against whatever I may play against. While I have sentimental atachment to Landstill, obviously since I still follow the thread, I'd much rather just win so I play whatever I think can do that best. I don't net deck and it's not about playing what the majority of Magic players feel is the best deck I just run what I feel gives me the best chances of being able to win vs what everybody else considers the best deck.

I am running a very competitive deck with a whopping 3 non basics in it that pretty much never see play because I don't have to have them to win. It is not at all impossable to build a deck that doesn't care about Wasteland its just an under done practice. It is however impossable to build a 3 color control deck that doesn't care about Wasteland atleast sometimes. I've toyed with everything but Tithe and Loam helped alot but weren't always enough. In the end this all just comes down to consistent wins and as such playing Landstill you are playing into the MD hate in the room running into Wastelands.

Spell Pierce can be a useful tool but we are playing a stalling game and even though it may only happen one game in the entire event you could very realistically lose to your opponent paying for a Spell Pierce. It's an inherint problem of trying to keep up with the format yet still having the late game to beat everything that's out there. Control was considerably stronger when the format was slower just by definition. Like I keep saying it's not that you can't win games with it but how many times will it fail you in a 7-8 round event where you need to win the first 6 rounds? These are all small factors that individually can be over come but they add up to individual game losses here or there and throw in a touch of bad luck or your opponents good luck and you find yourself x-2 taking home your top 16 prize. That's where I was for along time and I know I wasn't the only Landstill player getting those results.

I've won games with Path and I've also lost games with Path. I've excelled numerous players into the win with it. It's a great card but you almost can't cast it in the first 5-6 turns without potentially excelling your opponent out of your reach. The reverse tempo is a very serious drawback. Sure most games it will be just fine but the last event I played Landstill in I excelled my opponent into a turn 3 Natural Order with one mana up for a Spell Pierce that kept me out of yet another top 8.

I agree there is absolutely no problem with Standstill, the only reason it is weaker is because Factory doesn't kill most of the format like it used to so the board needs to be clear before you cast it more times than not which can slow down our draw engine. All just small contributions to things that we don't want to see. In this field it's a pretty safe bet people are either dropping men or have spell pierce in the first couple turns of the game.

I'm not saying you can't win with the deck at all, my point was more it's considerably easier to win with different decks in the current format. Landstill needs a new fast card advantage bomb of some kind to push it back on top, until that gets printed it won't be the house that it used to be.

The peacekeeper is techy, I actually run him in my Survival list as well. Just a friendly heads up I already run a Mangora and a Duplicant in my list for other reasons plus 4x STP. People tend to run odd card choices after seeing somebody play them so be aware some Survival players may have outs to Peacekeeper.

Iron Buddha

11-03-2010, 02:31 PM

Mana Drain

11-03-2010, 07:33 PM

You don't like Decree of Justice, because it lacks power. This is exactly, what I have said in my post. However, while Decree of Justice lacks power, it provides flexibility (see my post above for an explanation of the flexibility of Decree of Justice) In my opinion this is very valuable, but you seem to disagree here.

People don't like DoJ because it lacks power AND speed. It is really only a good card to see under a Standstill, and if Standstill is out, chances are you're already winning. It takes 7-8 mana to make 2 Angels or a decent team of guys. Until then, it's a 3 mana uncounterable draw spell.
Jace and Elspeth come down sooner, and can get you out of bad-spots easier. Eternal Dragon gets you land, and Factory is a versatile blocker and slow win-condition that just happens to add mana to your pool. DoJ is just too slow and too minuscule of an effect right now, and the guys you make will more then likely just chump-block, or eat a EE/Firespout/Deed/whatever.

GGoober

11-05-2010, 06:37 PM

This is out of point, but I found this statement on MTGS Landstill board pretty hilarious

"I also would like to note that when you play Humility against goblins giving them a land(Path to Exile) isn't as nearly as bad since Humility makes ringleaders and siege gang commanders pretty minimal against you. Also, if they K. Grip or Nature's Claim your Humility then the enchantment has done it's job."

Is it me or is there just so many things wrong with the statement?

- I think it is terribad to path gobs if that's your removal of choice. Gobs could use the land more than any aggro decks. It is risky to accelerate them to 3,4,5 mana into Matron/Warchief, Ringleader, Siege-gang. At least I don't think Landstill can handle it.

- I guess he feels this is fine because you play Humility, but that's assuming you can even resolve Humility against Gobs that run Wastelands/Ports, not to mention accelerating them to a Siege-Gang = 4 1/1s beating you with other dudes.

- If they K.Grip or Claim Humility then the enchantment has done its job. Well, it's only done the job if you follow up with a sweeper, otherwise I think the Enchantment killed you.. That's one of the problems I have with Humility. You can't rely on it to win-games. It buys you time, that's it. It's hell powerful card but the cost is great if you don't use it well, you lose games if you don't deal with the board after Humility hits.

I got a good laugh, but maybe I'm wrong on my evaluation, but source taken from MTGS Landstill thread lol. Also, people are throwing out way too many "<3" on the thread it's making my eyes bleed. Don't know why I went to post in the forum, never usually lurk there anyway although UW Landstill thread has been somewhat inactive recently. Guess the deck isn't as popular as it once was.

Felidae

11-05-2010, 07:46 PM

If you resolve Humility in g1 then it's pretty much game over for them (but serious, this statement might be true for any creature based deck without acces to any sort of enchantment removal pre board), however it's usual a good idea to look out for a Taiga, as not every Goblin deck is splashing green.
There are currently only 2 methods to avoid the Grip: 1. Boarding Humility out and bringing in more removal or 2. trying to lure their Grips out with Explosiv or Factorys.
On a side note: DoJ works damn well under Humility, but I don't want to start this discussion again.

PtE shouldn't be our removal of choice in the first place, we can even afford to give the Aggro Loam player 8+ life for each KotR or Terravore and still win the race, so why bothering about Path if we got our 4 copies of StP. I like PtE as an additional point revomal in situations where a singleton basic doesn't matter, i.e. in the mid- or lategame, but in the early it's usually a bigger advantage for our opponent (if we don't drop Standstill right after the Path).

Mana Drain

11-05-2010, 09:18 PM

PtE shouldn't be our removal of choice in the first place, we can even afford to give the Aggro Loam player 8+ life for each KotR or Terravore and still win the race, so why bothering about Path if we got our 4 copies of StP. I like PtE as an additional point revomal in situations where a singleton basic doesn't matter, i.e. in the mid- or lategame, but in the early it's usually a bigger advantage for our opponent (if we don't drop Standstill right after the Path).

Although I'm not quite clear on what the point of this statement is, it looks to me like you are trying to say to not run or reduce the number of Paths we run because it can potentially end up hurting us? And if so, you'd be correct, but this is a calculated risk of play Path. Running 1-2 MD is not a bad idea, as having extra spot removal for creatures hard to kill with Explosives or Firespout is a perfectly reasonable. Try to save them for creatures you REALLY need to remove and the drawback is far less significant. Path just requires conservative or "greedy" play to gain full advantage.
I personally run 2 MD to supplement 2 MD Firespouts. Plus 1 in the board for matchups against Zoo, Merfolk, WG, and VV Sur.

GGoober

11-06-2010, 03:35 AM

Path is good against certain decks. It's great against Merfolks but not good at all against Gobs unless Lackey is your worry, but with all those StP/EE/BEB, you should have no problem with Lackeys. I was mainly musing how he mentions path against Goblins is fine if you have Humility. Well if you have humility everything is fine barring you don't die when it gets gripped, but pathing Goblin is a terrible idea from experience, they're a weird aggro deck that actually could use landdrops, either to port you or play their expensive four-drops and 5-drops.

felidae: I've always missed Decree everytime I play a list without them, the card screams Landstill from every angle: Card draw, don't break Standstill, defensive position, offensive position. I love the card to bits, but my meta is unforgiving at the moment (tons of combo, at least 5 in 16 players play some form of combo or Emrakul/Progemitus deck). Otherwise I won't question decree much in general.

Also I had the funniest/coolest idea for Landstill (janky but it's kinda hilarious): Sun Titan in Landstill recur a Standstill while beating under one lol.

Felidae

11-06-2010, 06:01 AM

- I think it is terribad to path gobs if that's your removal of choice. Gobs could use the land more than any aggro decks. It is risky to accelerate them to 3,4,5 mana into Matron/Warchief, Ringleader, Siege-gang. At least I don't think Landstill can handle it.

@ Mana Drain: I was referring to this statement, as it seemed to me like he was talking about 4 Pte's in the maindeck, instead of StP's, sorry if I got this wrong.
@ Metalwalker: Can you imagine him attacking and therefor reecuring another one... somehow I got the feeling to scribble down a version with this guy and test in on MWS to be either totaly disapointed or suprised.

GGoober

11-06-2010, 12:53 PM

@ Metalwalker: Can you imagine him attacking and therefor reecuring another one... somehow I got the feeling to scribble down a version with this guy and test in on MWS to be either totaly disapointed or suprised.

Disappointed.

EDIT: In theory disappointed is what I meant to say, 4WW is not going to work out in Legacy, but you know what? I might test it in some jank build because who knew cards like Vengevine + Survival is so overpowering? I'm not saying Sun Titan + Standstill is nuts (since it still involves you having a good position but I just randomly saw the interaction and got one of those nerdgasm moments lol), but when I sat down and thought, "Hey our factories don't get StP'd when we're in control of the game and finally beating to win, so Sun Titan should survive as well?" until I realize that Factory and other cards serve more than just win-conditions for the deck lol. Just a thought, not a suggestion to the deck obviously :P He has vigilance to block too and recurs your lands/Crucible/EE@0 lol.

Mana Drain

11-06-2010, 05:12 PM

EDIT: In theory disappointed is what I meant to say, 4WW is not going to work out in Legacy, but you know what? I might test it in some jank build because who knew cards like Vengevine + Survival is so overpowering? I'm not saying Sun Titan + Standstill is nuts (since it still involves you having a good position but I just randomly saw the interaction and got one of those nerdgasm moments lol), but when I sat down and thought, "Hey our factories don't get StP'd when we're in control of the game and finally beating to win, so Sun Titan should survive as well?" until I realize that Factory and other cards serve more than just win-conditions for the deck lol. Just a thought, not a suggestion to the deck obviously :P He has vigilance to block too and recurs your lands/Crucible/EE@0 lol.

I think anybody who saw Vengevine and played Magic for more than 3 months knew the card was insane. Sun Titan is an AMAZING card in Standard, but just not impacting enough to help in Legacy. I can imagine very few non-winmore situations where he would realistically be better than Elspeth. Even Frost Titan can be pitched to Force if you really want a Titan in your deck.
The only targets he has to return are lands, Standstills, and EE's for 0, plus a few flex cards different players may run, and none of those are very appealing for 6. Also, remember that every deck that runs removal will have it stockpiled, as we run no creatures other than Factory. So, he will likely be "4WW, Sorcery, Return target irrelevant card from your graveyard to play. Target opponent discards a removal spell." PW's and cards like Shackles just have more of an impact, earlier in the game, and are harder to remove.

Plus, 6 mana. I mean really, this is Legacy guys, and this type of time and mana doesn't come easy. Remember the adage, if it costs more than 3 mana, it better win you the game or stop you from losing the game. If it costs 5 or more, it better be able to be played for free, or give you head when it comes into play.

JamieW89

11-08-2010, 09:18 PM

Hey, I'm planning to play this deck for the open dutch champs next weekend, and would like some comments/tips/SB plans on my current list.

The meta I'm predicting is:
Tier-1: Goblins, Tes, Vengevival
Tier-1.5: Landstill, Merfolk, Zoo
Tier-2: TT, CounterTop, The Rock

Maindeck: 60

Card Advantage & Quality: 9
4x Brainstorm
3x Standstill
2x Sensei’s Divining Top

Removal & Board-Control: 13
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Engineered Explosives
2x Path to Exile
2x Humility
1x Wrath of God
1x Day of Judgment

Counters: 10
4x Force of Will
3x Counterspell
3x Spell Snare

Win-Conditions: 4
2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands: 24
4x Tundra
1x Underground Sea
1x Scrubland
2x Plains
2x Island
1x Swamp
3x Flooded Strand
2x Polluted Delta
1x Marsh Flats
4x Mishra’s Factory
3x Wasteland

Sideboard: 15
4x Ethersworn Canonist
4x Engineered Plague
3x Extirpate
3x Pithing Needle
1x Telemin Performance

klaus

11-08-2010, 10:39 PM

mossivo1986

11-09-2010, 05:22 AM

You seem to be sold on Canonist. I'm not positive though whether that guy's really the best combo hate out there.

Klaus he is. Cannonist is the best option for directly hating general tendrills combo. Especially since the banning of MTutor.

Also, whats with the lack of 2x humility and or planar voids in peoples lists?

JamieW89

11-09-2010, 10:01 AM

@: JamieW89
Some thoughs:
You should consider Persih>Plague, since Goblins tend to run Grip plus 4 lords and Merfolk runs around 12-16? diminishing Plagues impact tremendously.
Perish would also have a much stronger impact against TT, Rock, Survival, Zoo and CT
It's true, your Merolk MU would suffer from that change, however serveral other MUs would be improved. Plus you'd really have to stick 2 Plagues in order to get profit.
---
You seem to be sold on Canonist. I'm not positive though whether that guy's really the best combo hate out there.
Meddling Mage is still a strong choice and Tidehollow Sculler is also neat, coming in against control, too.
4 "Extract" could be feasible too, complementing Extirpate nicely.
---
Also, I'd cut 1 Top in favor of the 4th Standstill, since you always want it against most decks after STPing their turn 1 dude.

---
just my 2 pence.

Most goblin lists here are mono red, and if they splash they're usually RB. So I think I'd prefer Plague for the goblins and merfolk matches, as I expect quite a few.
And canonist is sick, it's pretty much game if it comes down and it doesn't get hit by duress either.
Going back to 4 Standstill is an option though, as the amount of merfolk seems to be slightly decreasing. But I don't really want to go to a singular top. Would it be worth it to cut a PtE, or should I keep playing 6 StP's?

Mana Drain

11-09-2010, 11:01 AM

Klaus he is. Cannonist is the best option for directly hating general tendrills combo. Especially since the banning of MTutor.

Also, whats with the lack of 2x humility and or planar voids in peoples lists?

I agree with Cannonist as a SB option for Combo. Most Tendrils lists in Legacy don't run Thoughtseize as more than a 1/2-of, so they can't Duress it and it can't be blasted with REB/Pyroblast. Just watch out for end-step Wipe Away/Krosan Grip/Disfigure. Those decks expect something like Meddling Mage from us and usually pack some removal for it post-side. Also, even though she isn't as effective of Vengevine hate as she used to be, she's still worth siding in for the match, forcing them to find their singleton Memnite/Shield Sphere.

And canonist is sick, it's pretty much game if it comes down and it doesn't get hit by duress either.
Going back to 4 Standstill is an option though, as the amount of merfolk seems to be slightly decreasing. But I don't really want to go to a singular top. Would it be worth it to cut a PtE, or should I keep playing 6 StP's?

Jaimie, why not cut a DoJ for a Standstill? You're running 6 spells that cost 2WW, and that just seems way too many for any fast, developed metagame. You need more T1 and T2 plays, especially if Gobs and Merfolk are a big part of your meta. I mean really, how do you expect to cast those cards through Waste and Port from Gobs, and Waste, Cursecatcher, Daze, Spell Pierce, and of course Force from Merfolk. I see the 5 basics in your deck, but you're still running 7 colorless lands and only 6 fetch to fix your mana. Elspeth is a great PW and Humility is vulnerable, but game-breaking, so I understand running those 4. But the 2 WoG effects just seem unnecessary. If you really want sweepers, play red. Firespout is better than EPlague in just about every possible matchup, unless the goblin decks you face play few Chieftains. Still, Firespout is an easier to cast WoG against Tribal, Survival, and kills almost everything vs. Zoo. Plus, REB in the board is additional Combo, Merfolk, and Control hate.

My overall suggestion is lower the mana-curve a bit. Red splash is just an idea, but 6 2WW spells is just brutal on your mana capabilities. Seeing as how you're trying to cast these 4 mana spells, I would swap 3 Wastes for 1 Flooded Strand, 1 Polluted Delta, and an additional U Sea.
You're meta has 5 decks in the Tier 1/2 range that require fast, efficient answers, and it looks like your taking a deck with a T2 mana-curve to a developed Legacy tournament. Also, you only have 17 U-cards to support Force in the MD. Post-side, that number will more-than-likely decrease even further. Decks like UG Survival can get away with running 15-16 U. We're a control deck, and we REALLY need a consistent FoW to stop T1 Vial, T2 Survival, and online Force all the time against TES. Every u-card you add to the deck (like Standstill and more Jaces) increases your chances of having the "OH SHI-, FORCE THAT" out that saves the day, instead of it being a 5-mana Counterspell.

Good luck!

mossivo1986

11-09-2010, 03:27 PM

I agree with Cannonist as a SB option for Combo. Most Tendrils lists in Legacy don't run Thoughtseize as more than a 1/2-of, so they can't Duress it and it can't be blasted with REB/Pyroblast. Just watch out for end-step Wipe Away/Krosan Grip/Disfigure. Those decks expect something like Meddling Mage from us and usually pack some removal for it post-side. Also, even though she isn't as effective of Vengevine hate as she used to be, she's still worth siding in for the match, forcing them to find their singleton Memnite/Shield Sphere.

I think this is inherently the wrong way to play against vengevine survival. Your better off playing superior cards and keeping survival off the table.

When all else fails obviously humility is there to back a secondary plan. Or pleanty of stp effects, or extirpate in the wishboard if absolutely necessary.

Jaimie, why not cut a DoJ for a Standstill? You're running 6 spells that cost 2WW, and that just seems way too many for any fast, developed metagame. You need more T1 and T2 plays, especially if Gobs and Merfolk are a big part of your meta. I mean really, how do you expect to cast those cards through Waste and Port from Gobs, and Waste, Cursecatcher, Daze, Spell Pierce, and of course Force from Merfolk. I see the 5 basics in your deck, but you're still running 7 colorless lands and only 6 fetch to fix your mana. Elspeth is a great PW and Humility is vulnerable, but game-breaking, so I understand running those 4. But the 2 WoG effects just seem unnecessary.

If the inherent problem your facing is disruption on your mana base and spell pierce and daze, then why arn't you running a card that fixes this problem or atleast solves part of the disruption early, while mantaining the boardstate. My buddy hitman has discussed the merits of playing talisman of progress; and strangely enough, its excellent.

Also six 4cc spells in a landstill arctype is not uncommon. Although I must say there was a time in which I played landstill that I had the ultra low curve average of 2.17

Mana Drain

11-09-2010, 07:48 PM

I think this is inherently the wrong way to play against vengevine survival. Your better off playing superior cards and keeping survival off the table.

When all else fails obviously humility is there to back a secondary plan. Or pleanty of stp effects, or extirpate in the wishboard if absolutely necessary.

You do realize that the point of the paragraph was that Cannonist is an effective ANTI-COMBO card, correct? The part about VV is just a bonus.
I don't play Cannonist, because she's rather narrow, slow, and there are better cards for both matchups, like Pithing Needle, Nature's Claim, Peacekeeper, Spell Pierce, REB, etc. But if you were playing with Cannonist in the SB, would you not side it in for something weaker in your MD because it's the "inherently wrong way to play against VV Survival"? Even though it is UNARGUABLY effective at slowing down VV? That's the way your statement comes-off.

If the inherent problem your facing is disruption on your mana base and spell pierce and daze, then why arn't you running a card that fixes this problem or atleast solves part of the disruption early, while mantaining the boardstate. My buddy hitman has discussed the merits of playing talisman of progress; and strangely enough, its excellent.

Also six 4cc spells in a landstill arctype is not uncommon. Although I must say there was a time in which I played landstill that I had the ultra low curve average of 2.17

Six 4cc spells USED to be relatively common. But we're in the year 2010 now. The format has sped-up, with or without MT being banned. Merfolk is a Tier 1 deck now, not the dark-horse it used to be. VV Sur puts out fast, uncounterable damage with u-disruption to back it up. Goblins is still running 4 Waste/3-4 Port. Even The Rock is going to be discarding answers and blowing up our land while beating down with a Knight or Goyf. And the slower CB decks (where running high-cc spells was profitable for us) are a fraction as prevalent as they were a year ago.

If your metagame gives you the slack necessary to run many high-cc spells and random, inconsistent, and easily-killed stuff like Talisman of Progress, more power to you. But in a developed metagame, with many Tier 1/2 decks represented, you're big-mana spells will more than likely be: 1) Spell Pierced/Dazed, 2) Forced, 3) Thoughtsiezed, 4) Griped/Bounced, or 5) Sitting in your hand as multiple Vengevines/Merfolk/Goblins/Tarmogoyfs/Tombstalkers beat you to death.

Tinefol

11-09-2010, 08:25 PM

The problem is, if this deck doesn't run 4cc bombs, it falls apart. Landstill can not win if it isn't generating card advantage. There aren't many 1-2cc spells that generate card advantage, only Standstill (which, quite frankly, sucks in Vial infested meta). You're clearly not going to win if all you're doing is 1/1 trades (and 2 for 1 in case of FoW), simply because other decks run more threats and have less lands.

Running something like 12 stp effects IS NOT going to work, nope (even if you could).

Wrath of God is still a solid card that often wins games. In fact, I'd run it before I ever consider running JTMS. Yes, the curve has been lowered, and many decks require immediate answers, thus we are no longer running Akroma's Vengeances and Nevynirral's Disks. I myself run 4x stp 3pte 4x Snare for this very reason. But you really can't cut on the cards which provide CA and save your ass.

Anyways, the deck doesn't get into a lot of top8s nowadays, for the very reasons you described. However, if not for its 4cc cards, it would've sucked even more.

JamieW89

11-09-2010, 08:34 PM

Thanks for the insightful replies :)

My main concern with replacing the Wasteland and adding a 4th standstill is that it is somewhat contradictional. Wasteland does make standstill a stronger card.
No wastelands makes Standstill very weak against Merfolk and the mirror (unless I have a top out and they have nothing yet). Wasteland has also won me a fair few games. However after cutting Vindicate my LD option has become weaker and it is more often used to destroy manlands, ports, keeping an opponent off a color etc.
However, only 4 colorless lands would make my manabase more stable (I think alot of goblin players don't play ports here, just wastes).

WoG is a nice out, it's almost never a bad draw in the mid-late game. Maybe 1 is enough, but I'm not completely sure on this one either. I could even cut both, but I really like having it as an out to alot of bad situations.

As for Canonist, it's by far my favourite card against TES. This is a very hard matchup preboard, but doable postboard with the canonists. I side it in against VV if I can find stuff to side out as it's not bad in the matchup. The Extirpates and Needles go in first though, and I don't have that much to take out (what would you side out?).

I'm not really considering a red splash just for firespout, I think I'd rather ran no sweepers at all. Although EE on 4 is another advantage.

Mana Drain

11-09-2010, 09:43 PM

@Tinefol: I'm not saying you can't run big-mana spells, just not 8-10 of them. Do you see the difference? And 1for1ing' then dropping Standstill or Jace is a very solid strategy. So solid, it's what winning Landstill lists(few and far between) have been doing for a while. Of course you need to hit CA in Landstill to win, that's why we run cards like EE, Elspeth, Jace, and Standstill. But you can't expect "I'll just live to 4 mana and win with all my powerful cards!" either. Because you won't, or your stuff will get countered/discarded, barring bad draws on your opponents part. This isn't the format where all you had to fear is T1 Lacky, go. And every deck and their brother has cards for us, like Choke, B2B, Grip, Needle, etc.

And please, quote me on this: Jace is the best win-condition Landstill has ever had and most likely, ever will have. Seriously, if you've played Jace for more than 3 games, you know this already. Not including him in your list for reasons other than budget constraints, is most likely incorrect. Especially over WoG. Against decks where you actually WANT WoG, Firespout is it for 2R. Easier to cast mana-wise in color and quantity, and 98% of the time, just as effective. Big creatures are what we have Swords and Path for.

@Jamie: I've got news for you, Standstill is terrible against Merfolk no matter what. Why? Because they run 3-4 Mutas, 4 Waste, AND 4 Vial. This is just one of those matchups where Standstill is only nice to see when you need a card to pitch to Force. Please, don't drop Standstill against Folk, unless you have 2+Manlands and they have no Vial and no Manlands/Wastes. I've been punished for this same mistake many times, and it just comes from getting greedy when you no you shouldn't.

Regardless, I'm tired of arguing about the big spells, and you're going to run what you want to run regardless of my counterpoints. I do suggest running a Tropical Island in the MD. This is a klaus signature special that I've been using for many months, and it has been mostly positive. It allows EE at 4 and 2 Grip in the SB, which handle a lot of randomness and are just plain versatile cards. EE at 4 is especially important if you have other LS decks in your meta. Blowing up opposing Jaces and Elspeths is the difference between winning and losing this matchup, and is a great tool on your side. I would say try it for a wasteland, but you know where this is going...

mossivo1986

11-09-2010, 11:05 PM

Mana Drain were on the same logic. Although I don't see too many cards in landstills natural shell that I would take out for cannonist if it was an option.

I think your vastly underrating Talisman.

Six 4cc spells USED to be relatively common. But we're in the year 2010 now. The format has sped-up, with or without MT being banned. Merfolk is a Tier 1 deck now, not the dark-horse it used to be. VV Sur puts out fast, uncounterable damage with u-disruption to back it up. Goblins is still running 4 Waste/3-4 Port. Even The Rock is going to be discarding answers and blowing up our land while beating down with a Knight or Goyf.

Merfolk hasn't really changed in the landstill match-up minus running pierce instead of stifle, and another lord since I last played landstill. I think they used to run snare as well, but that was still in the development stages of the deck when snare was the sickness in the format. Goblins is goblins, and the matchup remains relatively the same as it used to be. When I last played landstill they had just succesfully figured out that chieften was a real card for the deck and that instigator wasn't where they wanted to go. The testing for these decks are about the same as they used to be. Still very aggressive decks that you need to be able to answer to have success in this format.

Now let me be clear, just because I stopped playing the deck in tournaments doesn't mean that I dropped the deck completely. I've been working with Mastershake and Pattrick, and Hitman82, and several other pilots on testing and integrating a solid landstill model into the metagame for a while. The format is not "faster" then it was when I left. It actually is slower for various reasons. Survival being the top deck in the format right now indicates that the format is in fact slower then it was in the days of cat zoo merfolk gobbos and combo. It is in fact slower as zoo is now having more success with "big Zoo" merfolk plays a lord that they invest mana into after they cast it, and are now splashing colors regularly (they weren't doing this really at all before)
and even countertop is running 4-5 colors pretty regularly (although not as much countertop has been seen outside of thopterfoundry combo)

the bottom line is this; Landstill is in good shape with the current format, no combo, really no dredge/ speed decks with price of progress IE cat zoo. All in all its a ripe format and time for landstill to clean up. Now we just have to devise a shell that actually works. Or just wait until Vengevine/ survival gets banned?

And the slower CB decks (where running high-cc spells was profitable for us) are a fraction as prevalent as they were a year ago.

If your metagame gives you the slack necessary to run many high-cc spells and random, inconsistent, and easily-killed stuff like Talisman of Progress, more power to you. But in a developed metagame, with many Tier 1/2 decks represented, you're big-mana spells will more than likely be: 1) Spell Pierced/Dazed, 2) Forced, 3) Thoughtsiezed, 4) Griped/Bounced, or 5) Sitting in your hand as multiple Vengevines/Merfolk/Goblins/Tarmogoyfs/Tombstalkers beat you to death.[/QUOTE]

Tinefol

11-10-2010, 03:55 AM

@Tinefol: I'm not saying you can't run big-mana spells, just not 8-10 of them. Do you see the difference?

You stated that even 6 4cc spells is about too much. Now its 8-10? Personally I run 7: 2Elspeth, 2WoG, 2 Humility and 1JTMS (I would've liked 3, but I can't afford to run nine 4cc cards). And JTMS is the card I'm going to cut, since it has the least impact on the board if i'm in a bad shape. Assume you face 3 creatures on opponent's end and you need an out. Would you want that out to be JTMS?

And 1for1ing' then dropping Standstill or Jace is a very solid strategy.

Except Standstill sucks. Its nearly unplayable in my meta of Vial and Wasteland. Its horrible, horrible against Merfolk and Dredge. Awful vs Goblins. It often sucks if you are going second. But that's much as we got.

So solid, it's what winning Landstill lists(few and far between) have been doing for a while. Of course you need to hit CA in Landstill to win, that's why we run cards like EE, Elspeth, Jace, and Standstill.

Somehow you don't consider Humility and WoG a card there?

But you can't expect "I'll just live to 4 mana and win with all my powerful cards!" either. Because you won't, or your stuff will get countered/discarded, barring bad draws on your opponents part. This isn't the format where all you had to fear is T1 Lacky, go. And every deck and their brother has cards for us, like Choke, B2B, Grip, Needle, etc.

I just don't see what you propose? Running less powerful cards so that you win less?

And please, quote me on this: Jace is the best win-condition Landstill has ever had and most likely, ever will have. Seriously, if you've played Jace for more than 3 games, you know this already. Not including him in your list for reasons other than budget constraints, is most likely incorrect. Especially over WoG. Against decks where you actually WANT WoG, Firespout is it for 2R. Easier to cast mana-wise in color and quantity, and 98% of the time, just as effective. Big creatures are what we have Swords and Path for.

I own Jaces, I've played with them and yet, they are not that good in UWx shell as they're in UBG(w) shell. And If I have a choice between WoG and Jace, I'm choosing WoG. You may think its incorrect, but in reality, WoG turns some games sideways (I've stated why before).

You propose Firespout. Clearly, IF I'm playing Spout, I'm playing more Jaces and no WoGs. But I don't want to play Firespout. Because it isn't even close to 98% of WoG effectivenes. I've played Spout a lot and clearly I didn't like for a bunch of reasons:
* it makes you run 3rd color extensively - putting constraints on your mana base and doesn't let you runn more basics
* it makes you commit in your splash color early. With UW I have the luxury of fetching all basics. With Spouts, I have to get Volcanic, which IS going to be wasted
* it sucks facing a bunch of big dudes like Goyf/KoTR. And sometimes you don't have enough STP effects. I have 7, mind you.
* it sucks against Merfolk. They either have a bunch of lords and don't care, or they waste your Volcanic and beat in. In fact, it even makes their S/B Blasts a real blasts.
* does nothing against Progenitus and Emrakul
* needs green to hit flyers - and that's relevant - coralhelm, tombstalker, blossom tokens, wondered crap, Clique, etc

mossivo1986

11-10-2010, 05:32 AM

I do think the idea of the off color fourth land is decent. I've seen it work. Chris (mastershake) Team Bad Guys has used it. Oh I so promo'd the team there <----- See it?

Chris has done extremely well with the 4c variant. Now do I believe Landstill should be running 2 grips off color in its side and firespouts main? Absolutely not. That sounds like the nightmare that I don't want to dream on. While I am fond of the "always running the better card" approach, I feel like your taking it to an extreme by promoting an even worse landbase then I had imagined to reasonably cast such spells.

As for Jace the Mind Sculpter. I still believe FOF is the stronger choice. I've tested it, you brainstorm once, maybe twice or return a guy, and then it dies from all the games i've seen. Now i'm not saying it's not excellent. Anything that allows Landstill to play draw go and win the game is clearly excellent. But your not accounting for

-Aggresive decks that give jace the middle finger.
-Combo that clearly doesn't care about your ultra slow counterbalance.
-Control, which as you said is going to run cards that inherently can take care of jace, IE playing their own jace, vindicate (not really appearing lately) and other such answers like EE, just running more countermagic then you. The list goes on. Now this can be said for a variety of cards, but in the control machup decree clearly has an advantage over jtms, and elspeth is usually a bit better once resolves in a critical gamestate.

Jace is a fine card, but no more then 2, usually a 1 of. I think it follows the same logic as FOF, and sometimes can take your third FOF slot in redundant models.

Tinefol. Most of the crap you mentioned that firespout doesn't answer is stuff that is high on the priority of stp and path anyways. Wog is clearly the superior card when it comes to people who want to have answers for the big picture, IE a GP setting. Firespout seems to be more of a defined metagame/ side in answer. And even then it feels like from all the people who talk about it peacekeeper just seems stronger.

Now as for lists, this is currently what im toying with for fun. I'd clearly like to state that im testing different utility packages and seeing if they work. So far so good, but I need to do additional testing against the format before I really am happy.

also note 2. Top will probobly not be making my cut.

// Lands
3 [4E] Mishra's Factory
3 [TE] Wasteland
2 [B] Island (2)
2 [B] Plains (1)
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [B] Scrubland
1 [B] Underground Sea
4 [B] Tundra
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ZEN] Marsh Flats

// Creatures
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [SC] Decree of Justice
3 [JU] Cunning Wish
4 [MM] Brainstorm
1 [CFX] Path to Exile
1 [B] Nevinyrral's Disk
1 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
3 [OD] Standstill
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [B] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [TE] Humility
2 [B] Wrath of God
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SC] Decree of Justice
SB: 1 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [MM] Counterspell
SB: 1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
SB: 3 [US] Planar Void
SB: 3 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap

I'd like to note that I couldnt find room for some of the natural selection that I usually choose IE FOF. Jace got the autoinclude because I needed a win condition and not extra card draw.

Missing 1 decree has been a pain, but I am told that it''s kind of bad in the meta right now.

GGoober

11-10-2010, 11:04 AM

@Moss: I think it's time for Disk to have a comeback. With all the permission/removal package, stalling the game into a Disk can be game-winning, although I feel that the list still needs 3 EE for sake of having a strong fight against Zoo/Gobs/Merfolks (vial mainly comes into mind). Maybe cut 2 tops for the 3rd EE and 2nd Decree? I've always played with/without 2 Tops, and I love them, but always felt that the list could do without them i.e. a list without top could do just as well except you don't get the security of having top especially when your opponents are Topping every turn.

I've been thinking of moving my Crucible to the SB and bring it in only against LD matchups. I've thought about Decree every now and then, but it always boils down to the 2nd-3rd Jace v.s. 2nd-3rd FoF. Recently, after looking at Jace v.s. Fact or Fiction, as much as I hate to say, the power level of FoF in Landstill outweighs Jace. Unlike Countertop, we can't slow roll and take things for granted, if we do we are severely punished. The deck doesn't have the engines like Countertop to lock people out. Landstill sometimes does that but more often it's a deck based on stabilizing, then capitalizing on huge card/board advantage. Cards that serve these purpose comes to my mind: Standstill v.s. Top, Decree v.s. Elspeth, Fact or Fiction v.s. Jace. We'll start noting that FoF, Standstill, Decree fits in a landstill theme much more than Top, Elspeth, Jace. However, Elspeth and Jace are making their way as MD'd 2-offs because they are simply strong cards in the format.

However, I am re-evaluating FoF in Landstill, and I personally think it's a mistake to drop them in the 75. I am playing with 2 FoF again. The card does much more for Landstill than Jace in a losing position and does more if not the same in a winning position. Take Walton's report (Mananation) for example. That single 'misplayed' EOTFOFYL still won him the game and because the card is so fucking broken, most opponents will do a 4-1 split of Jace v.s. 4 cards and you just pick up the 4 cards because it's 4-fucking cards that are good in your deck?? Also, Walton mentioned he had the Jace in hand, so it was really a 5 for 1 when he played FoF. No card in MTG gives that much advantage than FoF in landstill, although Landstill is usually the underdog in the format that is trying to beat the powerhouses out there.

I would like to hear more feedback about Walton's 4c Landstill. Somehow I feel that green for Deeds isn't justified although Green for Grips maybe especially in the Wishboard (I'm a fan of Ray of Revelation in green Landstill builds for the current meta i.e. countertop is unpopular deck now, and ray is faster against most threats Moon/B2B/Survival/Enchantresspwnage). I feel that Disk is old-tech but has the same speed/vulnerability as Deeds i.e. it gives the opponent 1 turn to react, but Disk is less mana-intensive, freeing up MORE mana the turn after when you activate, which is important to follow up with a threat or counterspell whereas Deeds you are short on mana for that turn. Disk can be recurred but that's an added bonus but I feel it is easier on the manabase without having to go into 4 colors.

@Anyone who doubts canonist, I think aside from Meddling Mage, she maybe the better answer against not only combo, but enchantress (problematic matchup).

IDEA:
Moss you mentioned Talisman in Landstill and I have been exploring that avenue in Landstill but have not tested it. Particularly I have been working with Mox Diamond/Crucible but they end up being terrible due to the wasted slots of Mox Diamond and putting a strain on land count in the deck. However, I recently was thinking about not Talisman, but Mind Stones in the deck. It speeds you up a turn (which is huge) but cantrips when needed later on. It taps for colorless but any deck with a solid manabase should not run into too many colored mana problems. The fact that it cantrips is why I feel it is stronger over Talisman. What do you think about the idea since I have not tested mana acceleration in Landstill, how many slots would you play and which slots would you play them in?

Mana Drain

11-10-2010, 12:01 PM

You stated that even 6 4cc spells is about too much. Now its 8-10? Personally I run 7: 2Elspeth, 2WoG, 2 Humility and 1JTMS (I would've liked 3, but I can't afford to run nine 4cc cards). And JTMS is the card I'm going to cut, since it has the least impact on the board if i'm in a bad shape. Assume you face 3 creatures on opponent's end and you need an out. Would you want that out to be JTMS?

Let me put it this way, I feel as 5 4cc+ spells is pushing it. I currently run 4 (4 JaceTMS), and am satisfied with my ability to cast him. I understand big-spell setups like 2 Elspeth, 1 Jace, 2 Humility, but it feels to me like the Humility does the same thing as WoG in you're setup. In fact, if running 2 Humility, Firespout looks to be at an all-time high for effectiveness, having mad synergy with Humility and being a turn faster. WoG and Humility take up the same spot in my opinion. At the 3 creatures statement, this is why I run firespout and 4 EE. If I let my opponent get out multiple Tombstalkers, Knights, Gofys, whatever big creatures they have, I should have mulled, drew terribly, or just made some major misplays.

Except Standstill sucks. Its nearly unplayable in my meta of Vial and Wasteland. Its horrible, horrible against Merfolk and Dredge. Awful vs Goblins. It often sucks if you are going second. But that's much as we got.

You know you don't need a manland out to cast Standstill right? Throw it down on an empty board and watch the game slow to a crawl, which is what we want. Most opponents will do everything in their power to stop you from drawing 3, and halt their gameplan as a result. Also, Standstills power increases exponentially if you run multiple Tops.

Somehow you don't consider Humility and WoG a card there?

I do consider them both as card advantage, but feel there are better cards to run that I feel have more impact on the game or allow me to win faster (a major concern when playing with 40 minute rounds). As I said earlier, Humility and WoG use the same slots in my deckbuilding. I find Humility to be the far stronger and harder to deal with card, but still find other cards to be more versatile and consistent.

I just don't see what you propose? Running less powerful cards so that you win less?

Running faster cards that allow you to take advantage of your CA spells quicker and stablilize sooner. My counter-point would be you running more powerful cards that you might not get to play so you die faster. Just because cheaper and easier to cast spells exist, doesn't mean they are less effective or powerful. You'll be looking pretty stupid when you tap out on T4 to cast your WoG and I tap my Island to Spell Pierce it, then swing in for some pain next turn with my creature deck (Merfolk, VV Sur). If you wait until T5/T6 to cast your big-spells to avoid Pierce/Daze, that's just more damage your opponents creatures put on you. Meanwhile I'll be resolving my Firespout on T4 with Spell Pierces of my own as protection.

I own Jaces, I've played with them and yet, they are not that good in UWx shell as they're in UBG(w) shell. And If I have a choice between WoG and Jace, I'm choosing WoG. You may think its incorrect, but in reality, WoG turns some games sideways (I've stated why before).
(list of reasons)

I'll go through your points one by one:
*Third color extensively? I run 3 Volcs MD, to support my 2 Firespout MD, along with 1 Firespout and 3 REBs SB and I have NO problem getting my red. I hope you don't consider 3 lands "extensive" commitment to a color?
*Actually, I don't use my fetches until I need to. Saving them to find whatever color you need is a relevant tactic when playing this deck. When I need to fetch red for FS, I just do. Otherwise, they sit on the table, ready to provide a shuffle for Top/BS, safe from Waste, and effectively tap for any color of mana I need them to. And do you know what Volcanic Island is when you don't need red? Non-basic Island that pumps EE. Seriously, decks can only run 4 Wasteland, and more than likely, won't draw all 3-4 of them in the first 5 turns. If they waste a Volc, I have 8 fetches and 2 other Volcs to help.
*I lol'd at this one: Firespout sucks against Merfolk? Really? Now you're just trolling. I've stated this before and I'll state this again: if you let Merfolk get 3 lords out without Pathing/StPing/EEing/countering one them, you should have mulled the hand, have TERRIBLE luck, or you really don't have the skill necessary to play LS. Otherwise, Firespout is a 3 mana WoG vs. Merfolk.
*You're correct that it doesn't do anything against Prog or Spaghetti Monster. This is an acceptable risk that I take when playing Firespout. I accept a much better Tribal and Zoo matchup, to have a weaker Pro-Bant and SnT matchup, which are less common in a fast metagame. If you're meta has both of these decks in substantial quantities, WoG/Humility may be a solid choice. Also, both of those creatures only come out with the aid of a spell, and I run Spell Pierce because I hear it is pretty good against non-creature spells.
*Another reason I run singleton Tropical Island. And no, it doesn't significantly weaken the manabase to Wasteland. Also, saving Swords/StP for things Firespout can't pick up helps, and is another part of solid control play and planning ahead.

@ Moss: While Planar Void is simply amazing vs. Loam decks and Dredge, I find Extirpate to be more versatile and useful in a wide variety of matchups, while still being effective grave-hate. I don't know your SB strategy, so maybe you keep the wishes in against grave-decks, but if not, I would change 2 Voids to Extirpates. It still neuters Loam decks and is somewhat effective vs. Dredge, but straight kills VV Sur and is a great surprise for the mirror and TES/Storm. Nailing Force or a Win-Con from opposing LS decks is huge, and seeing what they have in hand/deck is also a bonus. Against TES, blowing up a DRitual and seeing what they have in store for you allows you to make adjustments to your gameplan, and may just nab something out of their hand. Maybe just personal preference I guess. Also, I'm glad to see Eternal Dragon still being played. Forcing opponents to keep in StP, guaranteeing land-drops, creating shuffles, and being an inevitable win-condition is pretty good I hear.

mossivo1986

11-10-2010, 04:25 PM

@ Moss: While Planar Void is simply amazing vs. Loam decks and Dredge, I find Extirpate to be more versatile and useful in a wide variety of matchups, while still being effective grave-hate. I don't know your SB strategy, so maybe you keep the wishes in against grave-decks, but if not, I would change 2 Voids to Extirpates. It still neuters Loam decks and is somewhat effective vs. Dredge, but straight kills VV Sur and is a great surprise for the mirror and TES/Storm. Nailing Force or a Win-Con from opposing LS decks is huge, and seeing what they have in hand/deck is also a bonus. Against TES, blowing up a DRitual and seeing what they have in store for you allows you to make adjustments to your gameplan, and may just nab something out of their hand. Maybe just personal preference I guess. Also, I'm glad to see Eternal Dragon still being played. Forcing opponents to keep in StP, guaranteeing land-drops, creating shuffles, and being an inevitable win-condition is pretty good I hear.[/QUOTE]

void handles the nonsense I care about. Nuetoring the deck that im already bringing in cards for and have maindecked cards for doesn't seem like a good idea. Changing my graveyard hate to additionally fight it seems like a bad idea as well. I don't feel like pate is good enough to handle the graveyard slot.

Void handles EVERYTHING. Hitman asked me if I had ever cast void against canadian thresh, and I said no; then proceded to die laughing as their 8 win conditions just sit there like zoo animals.

Combo is addressed just fine with Cannonists. Sure they may be running grip, wipe away. But the inherent problem is that if they bother running those cards against you then clearly they are having problems in more areas then just dealing with cannnonist. On the other side of things IF they get to B wish for an answer it was dead anyways. You still run an equivelent four, followed by a clock, with standstill and top? This should be enough pressure to keep them at bay. Frankly im more worried about mass goblin tokens or the god hand then if they can actuallly try to be interactive with me. Pate is alright against combo, but void still has warrant in more bad matchups.

Dragon is actually kind of bad right now but im overextending my colorless sources in this list so I feel its necessary. it is the 61st card.

Dragon is typically better in legacy formats where stifle is a big deal. I actually wish that was the case right now!

JamieW89

11-10-2010, 05:09 PM

Compared to my earlier UWb list I could also drop black and add red. I'd run 2 Firespouts main instead of WoGs and 1 side (or should I run 4 divided over main and sb?). I'd play 2 volcanics which all of my 7 fetches can get. I'd still be running wastelands.
I'd play Peacekeepers in the side, which is a nice out to VV and Merfolk. But people play a fair bit of goblins. Should I add 2 Blue Blasts side?

I'd be running this sb:
4x Canonist
3-4x Peacekeeper
3x Needle
2-3 Blue Blast
1x Fspout
1x Telemin Performance

Or do you think a 4c version is better? With Extirpate and Plague side, but no black main. You can get EE@4 and some nice sb cards, but you go down to only 4-5 colorless so your standstill is slightly worse. I'd run 1 Sea, 1 Scrubland and 2 Volcanics (4 Strand, 3 Delta as fetches). Red would be used for 2:1 Firespouts and EE@4 and nothing else.

A sideboard would be about this: (Or should I play peacekeepers in this as well?)
4x Canonist
3x Plague
3x Extirpate
3x Needle
1x Fspout
1x Telemin Performance

mossivo1986

11-10-2010, 07:21 PM

ivanpei

11-10-2010, 07:21 PM

I tried to keep my nose out of this but there's too much self defending in here. This is a good deck in the venge-survival meta. If I were playing this deck, I would play six 4 cc TOPS. That would be 2 humility, 2 Jace, 2 Elspeth. WOGs are very very slow nowadays. They never come down when it matters from my experience. Manadrain and all the people splashing red for firespout are correct. You want your curve to be more spread out. After board, the REBs will win you the blue mirror as well. Also, no black for extirpate postboard is fine. Just deal with survival and plow/path venges and you are golden. I hate canonist in landstill. I much prefer meddling mage. Mage is not as good vs storm, but you should have a fair MU against storm anyway and its not THAT bad of a MU, meddling mage can name survival and thats the most important point today.

JamieW89

11-10-2010, 07:43 PM

why r u running telemin performance in the board? It's terrible.

Because it wins the mirror (and TES if they play no creatures).
I also board it in against show & tell.

IRT ivan:
Yeah, I think I want to add red for the FSpouts. I don't like the REB's though, I feel like my singleton Telemin Performance gives me a nice I WIN button in the mirror and I prefer plagues for the goblins & merfolk as I'm splashing black for Extirpate and EE@4 anyways.

My list would be about:
Maindeck: 60

Card Advantage & Quality: 9
4x Brainstorm
3x Standstill
2x Sensei’s Divining Top

Removal & Board-Control: 13
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Engineered Explosives
2x Path to Exile
2x Humility
2x Firespout

Counters: 10
4x Force of Will
3x Counterspell
3x Spell Snare

Win-Conditions: 4
2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands: 24
4x Tundra
2x Volcanic Island
1x Underground Sea
1x Scrubland
2x Plains
2x Island
4x Flooded Strand
3x Polluted Delta
4x Mishra’s Factory
1x Academy Ruins

Sideboard: 15
4x Ethersworn Canonist
3x Engineered Plague
3x Extirpate
3x Pithing Needle
1x Firespout
1x Telemin Performance

PS: Are there any spoiler/hide tags on these forums? Would be nice to put the decklist in spoiler tags so they don't take so much space.

yutang

11-10-2010, 09:19 PM

kiblast

11-11-2010, 09:02 PM

I'm switching to this build, coming from UWBG landstill.
One thing i notice is the lack of ''solid'' mass removal other than EE (wich is not so ''mass'').
Is WoG really SO slow ? i mean, firespout is great, but can't kill goyf and blah blah...(you already know what i mean)
I tried 3 spout maindeck, but i'm feeling it too narrow most of the times.

Also, i notice that most of you play only 3x artifact haters in sb. Personally i would never go under 4 (either extirpate or Tormod's or relic) what do you think?

mossivo1986

11-12-2010, 12:35 AM

Mana Drain

11-12-2010, 10:55 AM

it just depends on your flavor, and what you feel is strong for your meta. go with redundancy and then expand your horizon's.

This. As consistent and strong as you can build the deck, at the end of the day, if you don't know the metagame (or have a reasonable gauge on what others are playing), you're going to have a hard time winning. Kiblast, people who splash red generally do so because Tribal/Zoo/VV Sur is a big part of their metagame, and red gives you Firespout and REBs. Firespout DOES suck against Bant, Dreadstill, CB, Tarmogoyf.dec, etc. And it's even worse when you draw multiples of them with no targets. But this is just a risk of playing Firespout and if your meta lacks fast-aggro decks, Humility/WoG are probably better choices. If u-control (other LS, CB, etc.) is big in your meta or grave-decks are big, splash black. Vindicate, Extirpate, Planar Void, and Duress are all excellent cards for slower matchups.

And depending on what your MD choices are, you don't necessarily need 4 slots in the SB for gy-hate. If you run 3+ EE, Vindicates, 2+ Sweepers, you can generally get away with 3, either Extirpate or Planar Void. Barring straight nut-draws, Dredge isn't as bad of a matchup as people make it out to be.

ChiiMagic

11-12-2010, 12:42 PM

Jamie, that is a similar list to my UWR Landstill, except I run Wastelands and Stifles for mana disruption which opens me back up for mana disruption. What do you think of the following?

Manabase:
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Arid Mesa
1 Plains
2 Islands
1 Academy Ruins

Card Advantage/Quality:
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
1 Crucible of Worlds

Spot Removal:
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Lightning Bolt

Counters:
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Stifle or Spell Pierce (undecided)

Sweepers/Board wipes:
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
3 Firespout
1 Humility
3 Engineered Explosives

Wincons:
2 Elspeth
2 Jace TMS

Sideboard:
3 Seal of Cleansing
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pithing Needle
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Mindbreak Trap

This deck is really reminiscent of what I used to play before I stumbled upon the magnificence that is Isochron Scepter.
Regarding your manabase, there 100% should be 4 flooded strands and 2 other fetches, instead of the 3/3 split you currently have in your fetchlands. Flooded strand will get you every colored land in your deck, whereas the two fetches you have in there have to exclude one of your basics. This isn't a huge hole in your deck though, just a tiny fixable point. Instead of playing 2 Islands, I run 1 Island, I Plains, and 1 Tolaria West in my UWR Isochron Scepter build and have NEVER regretted it. The Tolaria West is SO good in a variety of circumstances like fetching EEs, Wastelands, Factories, and is a Thoughtseize proof Tormod's Crypt post board if you run them like I do.
Hope that helps.
Also, I'm glad to see all the renewed discussion in this thread. Keep it coming all.

Muradin

11-13-2010, 06:37 AM

Played UWr Landstill to a 5-0 record in a local tournament winning a BB Badlands.

2-0 Elf Survival
2-1 UB Merfolk
2-0 Dark Horizons
2-0 Zoo
2-0 UBG Tempo Threshold

The deck is amazing and very strong in the current metagame. With 4 Spell Snare and Humility Vengevine matchups are favorable for Landstill. The red splash is strong for giving you Lightning Helix and Pyroblast from the board, which makes Merfolk slightly positive as well.

My list was pretty standard with 4 Spell snare, 2 Decree, 1 Elspeth, 1 Humility, 24 Lands and a pretty good sideboard. All credits for it go to Marius Hausmann (Wasteland)

mossivo1986

11-13-2010, 07:13 AM

This. As consistent and strong as you can build the deck, at the end of the day, if you don't know the metagame (or have a reasonable gauge on what others are playing), you're going to have a hard time winning.

I agree. If you don't know your meta, then you shouldn't be playing Landstill; as it's primarily a Metagame deck. You don't take landstill into unknown metas and expect to have good results consistently, as you don't know what to expect. This is why redundant decks have such great success across the board. This always seems to follow suit with combo and aggressive decks, which in short terms means the following: If you are running landstill in a predicted aggresive meta (IE mefolk, goblins, cat zoo etc.) then firespout is quite obviously going to be a more acceptable approach. However most Legacy metagames with 15 plus players are starting to develope a wide aray of archtypes. this is why fundamentally Landstill shouldn't run limited removal, or removal that is swingy 50 percent of the time. Landstill deals with certainties; not maybes.

Kiblast, people who splash red generally do so because Tribal/Zoo/VV Sur is a big part of their metagame, and red gives you Firespout and REBs.

I agree that these cards can be useful post board.

Draener once mentioned to me that if you both side out the same number of cards, and your matchup is really mediocre to bad; how does your matchup improve? Now there are exceptions to this rule of thumb obviously, but this is why more universal cards are just better. Sure you side in your blasts, your firespouts, and different forms of board control; but are you really prepared for an opponent who sides in red blasts and choke? or Teeg for CB lock? In my experience i'd rather 1. Play better cards or 2. Play a more aggressive deck.

Firespout DOES suck against Bant, Dreadstill, CB, Tarmogoyf.dec, etc. And it's even worse when you draw multiples of them with no targets. But this is just a risk of playing Firespout and if your meta lacks fast-aggro decks, Humility/WoG are probably better choices. If u-control (other LS, CB, etc.) is big in your meta or grave-decks are big, splash black. Vindicate, Extirpate, Planar Void, and Duress are all excellent cards for slower matchups.

I'm not going to nitpick specific card choices in regards to a controllish metagame. Other then perhaps Jupiter (and I dont even know if thats still flooded with Landstill) I don't know of many metas that a flooded with Control decks. Almost every metagame ive played in for the last year and a half is pretty mid-range/ aggresive.

And depending on what your MD choices are, you don't necessarily need 4 slots in the SB for gy-hate. If you run 3+ EE, Vindicates, 2+ Sweepers, you can generally get away with 3, either Extirpate or Planar Void. Barring straight nut-draws, Dredge isn't as bad of a matchup as people make it out to be.

It depends on game-plan mostly. A strong dredge player will roll landstill pretty consistently. It's very difficult to fight a deck that doesn't want to be interacted with, and for a deck with almost no clock and no creatures, thats very easy for dredge to assume its combo plan. Granted if you see the hate you see it, but don't knock on dredge.

GoldenCid

11-13-2010, 04:29 PM

mossivo1986

11-15-2010, 05:14 AM

Does anyone know what Jupiter Landstill lists are looking like these days? I can't find results for that location anywhere.

Mark Sun

11-15-2010, 10:21 PM

Does anyone know what Jupiter Landstill lists are looking like these days? I can't find results for that location anywhere.

I know that the Top 8 list this past weekend was BUG and not UWx. To be honest, I haven't seen UWx played at any event recently.

The list you came up with is interesting, but not interesting enough to pry me away from playing Survival at the moment. The results I've had with Survival are more positive than what I think Landstill could do in this metagame. Even against what I played against at Vestal this past weekend, in only one matchup would I have liked to play Landstill (Survival Elves), and that's still a long stretch. Just not worth it right now, in my opinion. Too much flex needed to adjust to any metagame, one wrong card choice and you find yourself dropping early.

Mana Drain

11-16-2010, 10:54 AM

I know that the Top 8 list this past weekend was BUG and not UWx. To be honest, I haven't seen UWx played at any event recently.

The list you came up with is interesting, but not interesting enough to pry me away from playing Survival at the moment. The results I've had with Survival are more positive than what I think Landstill could do in this metagame. Even against what I played against at Vestal this past weekend, in only one matchup would I have liked to play Landstill (Survival Elves), and that's still a long stretch. Just not worth it right now, in my opinion. Too much flex needed to adjust to any metagame, one wrong card choice and you find yourself dropping early.

I think pretty much everyone who has played this deck for a while now is feeling similar. This deck can definitely beat Survival, but in order to do so you have to skew your card choices so much that you end up having a far weaker matchup against decks you should be beating (CB, Rock, Bant).
In all honesty, after getting stomped by Goblins AND ProBantx2 (I did manage to beat 2 UG VVSurs though), I'm putting this deck away, at least until December 20th. It's just to hard to try and catch the three biggest decks right now (TES, Gx Sur, Folk), and not lose to everything else. Deedstill just has better game against the Survival and Merfolk decks naturally and doesn't need to bend-over backwards to beat them, keeping their game against all the other stuff in the format.
But to anyone who is a masochist and wants to keep going with UWx, I'd say black splash is probably better than red *RIGHT NOW*. Extirpate, Perish, and Engineered Plague are extremely useful right now, and Spell Pierce is a fine substitute for REB/Pyroblast. You're matchup against Folk is slightly worse, but you have a much better chance against just about everything else.

Mark Sun

11-16-2010, 04:54 PM

But to anyone who is a masochist and wants to keep going with UWx, I'd say black splash is probably better than red *RIGHT NOW*. Extirpate, Perish, and Engineered Plague are extremely useful right now, and Spell Pierce is a fine substitute for REB/Pyroblast. You're matchup against Folk is slightly worse, but you have a much better chance against just about everything else.

I agree here, which I guess helps reiterate both of our points for this situation. If you happen to stuff your board full of (what I would think is the right quantity of) the following:

4 Engineered Plague
3 Perish/Nature's Ruin
3 Extirpate

You really only have 5 slots open. I generally like to increase the number of StP/PtE effects for the aggro matchups, and in this case it would be crucial to have something more against Merfolk than Engineered Plague. When you start thinking along this line of thought, you come to a point where the sideboard just becomes dysfunctional against everything else. No room for Negates, barely space left for GY hate, etc.

Tinefol

11-16-2010, 06:16 PM

This is essentially a biggest problem with control decks right now - you can't squeeze answers for everything. You can tune to beat every deck, but all your other match ups are going to suck.

Non-control decks get away by presenting their own threats. Who cares about being unable to answer the opponent, if you're attacking for 16 with Vines, or Tendrilsing him to death. Or beating with a bunch of lords or 10/10 KoTR, etc. We don't have that luxury. Not until WoTC prints something ridiculous.

GGoober

11-17-2010, 10:30 PM

This is the list that I have fine-tuned looking at today's meta. I think it has strong matchup against Vengevival, KotR.decs, and has a slower 50/50 matchup amongst Merfolks and boasts a decent matchup against combo.

UWb Scepterstill:
Lands: 24
1 Academy Ruins
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Wasteland
3 Island
2 Plains
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
4 Flooded Strand
2 Marsh Flats
1 Polluted Delta

3 Engineered Explosives
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile

4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
2 Cunning Wish

2 Isochron Scepter
2 Orim's Chant
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
2 Jace the Mindsculptor
1 Fact of Fiction
1 Humility
1 Crucible of Worlds

SB:
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Path to Exile
3 Extirpate
3 Negate
1 Orim's Chant
3 Peacekeeper
2 Ethersworn Canonist

Highlights:
- 6StP effect MD should give a good matchup against most aggro field (Bant, Zoo, Gobs, Merfolks). Combined with 3 EE, and drawing a Scepter to imprint either StP/Path/Chant will steal game 1s unexpectedly. I would suggest -1 Path, -1 Crucible, -1 FoF, +3 Spell Snare if you meta has a ton of Survival. I run my package because my meta doesn't play Survival. We see a lot of tribal/KotR/Bant.

- Counterpackage MD is weak: 4 Counterspell, 4 FoW. Aside from combo blowing you out game 1, you still have 2 Chants to surprise-fizzle so game 1 is not entirely a blowout. Lists with Spell Snare wouldn't do as well against combo than lists with Chants. Chant has more applications to many more matchups but Spell Snare is quite critical today.

Postboard:
Combo: +3 Negate, +2 Ethersworn Canonist, +1 ETutor, +3 Extirpate, -Humility/Wishes etc
Enchantress: +3 Negate, +2 Ethersworn Canonist, +1 ETutor, +3 Extirpate
Survival: +3 Extirpate, +1 Chant, +3 Peacekeeper +1 Path
Dredge: +3 Extirpate, +1 Chant, +3 Peacekeeper (wow gg lol)
Stax/stompy: +3 Negate, +1 Chant maybe
control: +3 Negate, keep wishes in
Countertop: you should win it easily
Tribal: +1 Path, +1 Chant, +3 Peacekeeper against Merfolks (dont board Peacekeeper against gobs).
If you suspect heavy Grips boarded in, board out Scepters and put in Peacekeepers etc. It all depends on the deck you're playing against.

I was having problems with just 4StP MD against Merfolks, so hopefully the 6 StP effect is sufficient enough to stabilize and get Chant/Peacekeeper lock before winning.

Just a list and thought to throw out for people interested. I've been testing Scepter Chant for about 2 months after Knappstill's success. I don't have as much experience as Knapp, but it's definitely a strong list that isn't widely played. It has its own strength but demands a different approach to control. The only advice that I can give is: The deck isn't a ScepterChant deck. It plays as a control deck, all decisions/strategies should be made from a control-standpoint and not from a ScepterChant standpoint. If you're bent on setting up ScepterChant, you've lost most of the games due to bad mentality.

GGoober

11-17-2010, 10:30 PM

This is the list that I have fine-tuned looking at today's meta. I think it has strong matchup against Vengevival, KotR.decs, and has a slower 50/50 matchup amongst Merfolks and boasts a decent matchup against combo.

UWb Scepterstill:
Lands: 24
1 Academy Ruins
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Wasteland
3 Island
2 Plains
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
4 Flooded Strand
2 Marsh Flats
1 Polluted Delta

3 Engineered Explosives
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile

4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
2 Cunning Wish

2 Isochron Scepter
2 Orim's Chant
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
2 Jace the Mindsculptor
1 Fact of Fiction
1 Humility
1 Crucible of Worlds

SB:
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Path to Exile
3 Extirpate
3 Negate
1 Orim's Chant
3 Peacekeeper
2 Ethersworn Canonist

Highlights:
- 6StP effect MD should give a good matchup against most aggro field (Bant, Zoo, Gobs, Merfolks). Combined with 3 EE, and drawing a Scepter to imprint either StP/Path/Chant will steal game 1s unexpectedly. I would suggest -1 Path, -1 Crucible, -1 FoF, +3 Spell Snare if you meta has a ton of Survival. I run my package because my meta doesn't play Survival. We see a lot of tribal/KotR/Bant.

- Counterpackage MD is weak: 4 Counterspell, 4 FoW. Aside from combo blowing you out game 1, you still have 2 Chants to surprise-fizzle so game 1 is not entirely a blowout. Lists with Spell Snare wouldn't do as well against combo than lists with Chants. Chant has more applications to many more matchups but Spell Snare is quite critical today.

Postboard:
Combo: +3 Negate, +2 Ethersworn Canonist, +1 ETutor, +3 Extirpate, -Humility/Wishes etc
Enchantress: +3 Negate, +2 Ethersworn Canonist, +1 ETutor, +3 Extirpate
Survival: +3 Extirpate, +1 Chant, +3 Peacekeeper +1 Path
Dredge: +3 Extirpate, +1 Chant, +3 Peacekeeper (wow gg lol)
Stax/stompy: +3 Negate, +1 Chant maybe
control: +3 Negate, keep wishes in
Countertop: you should win it easily
Em
Tribal: +1 Path, +1 Chant, +3 Peacekeeper against Merfolks (dont board Peacekeeper against gobs).
If you suspect heavy Grips boarded in, board out Scepters and put in Peacekeepers etc. It all depends on the deck you're playing against.

I was having problems with just 4StP MD against Merfolks, so hopefully the 6 StP effect is sufficient enough to stabilize and get Chant/Peacekeeper lock before winning.

Just a list and thought to throw out for people interested. I've been testing Scepter Chant for about 2 months after Knappstill's success. I don't have as much experience as Knapp, but it's definitely a strong list that isn't widely played. It has its own strength but demands a different approach to control. The only advice that I can give is: The deck isn't a ScepterChant deck. It plays as a control deck, all decisions/strategies should be made from a control-standpoint and not from a ScepterChant standpoint. If you're bent on setting up ScepterChant, you've lost most of the games due to bad mentality.

GGoober

11-17-2010, 10:30 PM

This is the list that I have fine-tuned looking at today's meta. I think it has strong matchup against Vengevival, KotR.decs, and has a slower 50/50 matchup amongst Merfolks and boasts a decent matchup against combo.

UWb Scepterstill:
Lands: 24
1 Academy Ruins
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Wasteland
3 Island
2 Plains
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
4 Flooded Strand
2 Marsh Flats
1 Polluted Delta

3 Engineered Explosives
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile

4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
2 Cunning Wish

2 Isochron Scepter
2 Orim's Chant
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
2 Jace the Mindsculptor
1 Fact of Fiction
1 Humility
1 Crucible of Worlds

SB:
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Path to Exile
3 Extirpate
3 Negate
1 Orim's Chant
3 Peacekeeper
2 Ethersworn Canonist

Highlights:
- 6StP effect MD should give a good matchup against most aggro field (Bant, Zoo, Gobs, Merfolks). Combined with 3 EE, and drawing a Scepter to imprint either StP/Path/Chant will steal game 1s unexpectedly. I would suggest -1 Path, -1 Crucible, -1 FoF, +3 Spell Snare if you meta has a ton of Survival. I run my package because my meta doesn't play Survival. We see a lot of tribal/KotR/Bant.

- Counterpackage MD is weak: 4 Counterspell, 4 FoW. Aside from combo blowing you out game 1, you still have 2 Chants to surprise-fizzle so game 1 is not entirely a blowout. Lists with Spell Snare wouldn't do as well against combo than lists with Chants. Chant has more applications to many more matchups but Spell Snare is quite critical today.

Postboard:
Combo: +3 Negate, +2 Ethersworn Canonist, +1 ETutor, +3 Extirpate, -Humility/Wishes etc
Enchantress: +3 Negate, +2 Ethersworn Canonist, +1 ETutor, +3 Extirpate
Survival: +3 Extirpate, +1 Chant, +3 Peacekeeper +1 Path
Dredge: +3 Extirpate, +1 Chant, +3 Peacekeeper (wow gg lol)
Stax/stompy: +3 Negate, +1 Chant maybe
control: +3 Negate, keep wishes in
Countertop: you should win it easily
Emrakul/Progenitus: +1 Chant, +3 Peacekeeper
Tribal: +1 Path, +1 Chant, +3 Peacekeeper against Merfolks (dont board Peacekeeper against gobs).
If you suspect heavy Grips boarded in, board out Scepters and put in Peacekeepers etc. It all depends on the deck you're playing against.

I was having problems with just 4StP MD against Merfolks, so hopefully the 6 StP effect is sufficient enough to stabilize and get Chant/Peacekeeper lock before winning.

Just a list and thought to throw out for people interested. I've been testing Scepter Chant for about 2 months after Knappstill's success. I don't have as much experience as Knapp, but it's definitely a strong list that isn't widely played. It has its own strength but demands a different approach to control. The only advice that I can give is: The deck isn't a ScepterChant deck. It plays as a control deck, all decisions/strategies should be made from a control-standpoint and not from a ScepterChant standpoint. If you're bent on setting up ScepterChant, you've lost most of the games due to bad mentality.

Mana Drain

11-18-2010, 12:39 PM

Metalwalker, your Goblins match looks pretty rough. All you have to side in is a Path and a Chant and pray you get the Scepter-lock, against a deck running 4 Vials and 8 pieces of land-hate. Humility will do you some good, but you only run 1 not Tops to dig for it. I really think you need a sweeper in the board like WoG or more Humility. If you DON'T get the Scepter-lock, you will get overrun by their CA engines, and StP effects (no matter how good they are) just won't cut it against Ringleader and Matron. Some type of sweeper-Esq effect is really necessary to deal with their late-game.
I only point this out due commonality of the matchup in most developed metagames. If yours has no Goblins then the list looks pretty solid.

GGoober

11-18-2010, 01:41 PM

I personally find Merfolks to be tougher than Goblins with my list. My meta has about 2 Gobs + 2 Merfolks weekly with gobs recently disappearing. I don't find the matchup that tough because unlike Merfolks, my factories are actually useful whereas in Merfolks they just Islandwalk and Coralhelm beats the crap out of Legacy.

When playing against gobs, I keep StP/Path on Lackey, Allow Matron to resolve, and save my counters for Ringleaders. I do have a Humility MD that is fetched with Cunning Wish (so the effective number is 3 if Cunning Wish is solely used to fetch EE/Humility). From experience, these tribal matchups get very tough when they keep waste landing you AND having Vial. If they have either strategy, you can usually recover but when they slap on Waste + Vial, it becomes very unfair. I've upped my basic count to 5 (3 island, 2 Plains) because I'm really tired of losing my lands to Wastelands. It's worked quite well so far. I don't expect Gobs to be huge, and if they do get popular again, 3 Peacekeeper can be swapped out for 3 Plagues. I'm liking Peacekeeper although in the above list, you have a Peacekeeper effect with a Scepterchant.

I would really like to squeeze 2 Top or 2 Spell Snares in but the only cards that I can possibly cut are:
- Crucible
- Humility
- 2 Fact or Fiction
- 2 Orim's Chant (I've thought about this and I will probably do this, ScepterChant isn't the deal in Landstill, it's really Scepter that's the strongest card in Scepterstill).

I am reluctant to cut Fact or Fiction. It's true that I'm leaning back to more than 6+ 4cmc spells again (I usually run 4-5) but Fact or Fiction is an old card that has not received attention after Jace's penetration into Legacy. After testing it and re-evaluating it, FoF is as strong as Jace (in 1 turn, it is much stronger and much more cost-efficient than Jace giving speedier answers and almost guaranteed wins, however, where games are required to drag out, Jace is more cost-efficient and powerful.

I'm wondering what are people's opinion of FoF. I know it's usually slower against combo etc, but the philosophy I had was:
A resolved Fact or Fiction usually wins games (almost always, it's just whether you can get to resolve it)
A resolved Jace usually wins games (almost always, it's just whether you can get to resolve it).

FoF grabs the cards immediately and setup for future turns, just as Jace would. FoF is more concerned with the immediate state of the game where Jace seeks to create inevitability. When you play BOTH FoF and Jace, you get a balance of having answers fast immediately, or setting up with a win-con with Jace, not to mention if your FoF piles have some form of Planeswalker, you would be getting quite a lot of resource by making the decisions tough on your opponents. Basically, if games get to the point where you can cast Jace/Elspeth, Fact or Fiction is relevant in winning games. It's a funny odd feeling, because I feel tremendous power when Jace sticks, but when a FoF resolves, I feel that I've won the game. And the feeling isn't a feeling, it actually wins games. I think it's time to beat an old dead FoF-horse again lol.

Mana Drain

11-18-2010, 08:22 PM

Chants are probably the weakest cards in the deck. If you're going to run Scepter, I think you should back it up with the most consistent and versatile cards possible, and Chant is neither consistent or versatile. I fully support removing it for 2 Tops (or Spell Snare, if you so choose).

I personally feel that Jace is control's Survival/Ad Nauseaum/Dreadnought/Tarmogoyf. He's the card that your opponents don't want to see and have to answer quickly. When he hits the table he says "Hey dude, if you don't remove me, you die in 6 turns. And even if you do remove me, I'll mess up your draws, Brainstorm every turn, or just unsummon your dudes away."
He's a draw engine, a stall piece, a disruption piece, and a fast (important!) win condition. A side bonus is not having to worry about SnT Emrakul/Dreadnought/Iona.

But if you choose to run multiple Jace's, you have to dedicate more slots to StP/Path/Firespout/etc. to protect him, which can be a downfall for people who like to play more counterspells rather than removal. It's all personal preference, but my testing has shown that 1for1ing you opponent as much as possible, then dropping a Jace with counter-backup to be a very solid gameplan. DISCLAIMER: This plan is significantly less solid against Canadian Thresh or any type of heavy Tempo deck.

fallenphoenix

11-24-2010, 09:29 AM

I went 4:2 with UW/r last weekend.

Played 24 lands, 2 Humility, 2 Jace, 2 Elspeth, 6 Swords, 3 Firespout, 1 Explosives. No Decree, Crucible, A. Ruins, Wasteland.

1:2 vs ANT
0:2 vs Merfolk
2:0 vs Slivers
2:0 vs Belcher
2:0 vs BG Dark Depths-Loam
2:0 vs UG/b Tempo-Thresh

In hindsight I'd probably cut an Elspeth for a Decree (though I've never lost a game once I had Elspeth on board) and definitely the Standstills for some real card draw.

With every deck having some amount of cheap beatsticks/Aether Vials/Manlands/Wastelands/etc. it's really hard to actually gain an advantage under Standstill. There were a bunch of occasions, when something like Compulsive Research would have easily put me way ahead and Standstill did not.

For example in my last match-up (where Standstill is a considerably good card!), I already dealt with two 'Goyf and a Mongoose, but my opponent had another 'Goyf ready. I only had 2 Factories and a Top vs his 5/6, so I topped, put Standstill (as the only relevant card) on top and played it on my turn.
Now this put me in a bit of a jeopardy, b/c I could block his Goyf with my 3/3s to kill it, but if he then had an instant it would pop my Standstill and grow his Goyf to a 6/7.
Luckily my opponent decided to force the Standstill and I found Path 3 cards down my library, so it turned out well for me, but only b/c my opponent blatantly misplayed.

GGoober

11-24-2010, 11:40 AM

Nice!

I like to quote this:

1:2 vs ANT
0:2 vs Merfolk

IMO, Combo + Merfolk + Aggro Loam are the true tough matchup for Landstill. Combo + Merfolk will always exist so unless Landstill addresses these issues, it will always remain a non DTB, not to mention having to fight through plenty of other viable tough matchups, but these 3 matchups are the toughest from my experience so far.

I'm convinced that Merfolk is a totally screwed up and retarded deck. The deck has WAY too many creatures yet packs up to 12 permission cards and 8 draw cards. It's gross and unfair. Last week, I went 2-1-0 with my UWb Scepterstill and plowed 9 Fish with Scepter (He was at 47 life). I Jace'd him though lol.

I feel that there are a lot of 'unconventional' tools that can be used to improve the above matchups. Countertop engine will solve the combo problem although you can take a traditional list with SB of 3 Negates/Pierces + 2-3 Canonist/Meddling Mage and have about a 50/50 post matchup. Merfolk would require either Peacekeeper (not so effective anymore after meta is adapting to it), more StP/REBs/Firespouts to beat it or Humility. Aggro Loam is by far the toughest matchup, it depends if they draw the nuts and lock you out a little with Chalice. The build my friend uses is very resilient, 3 EE, 3 Pulses MD, and it makes winning and stabilizing much slower.

Last week, I tested my UWb Scepterstill list without 2 Chants MD, picking 3 Spell Snares over it. The matchups went well but I didn't perform as well, mainly because I made play mistakes. I'm not convinced cutting 2 Chants MD is the right call because there were times where 2 Chants MD definitely steal games and you want to abuse the suprise factor in game 1 rather than board chants in games 2/3 where you opponents are preparing against Scepter. So in hindsight I'll revert back to 2 Chants main. The Snares have been great, although I'm not sure if 2 SDT over 2 Spell Snare would increase the overall effectiveness of the deck. You'll miss out on countering critical 2 cmc spells, but at the same time, you will have a lot more digging power into answers like EE.

Regardless, I am not too terrified against Merfolks with my UWb Scepterstill list. If you stick a Scepter with Path/StP (I was playing 4 StP, 2 Path) which was great, they cannot win unless they draw way too many creatures and tempo you by a counterspell on your Scepterd' StP. That happened quite a few times, and it goes to showing how sweepers are relevant against decks like Merfolks and pinpoint removal only go that far. They breed too fast. However, this has made me wonder if I should be playing 2 WoG again, because sticking a Scepter in play forces my opponents to overextend, and WoG becomes stronger. I'm still unsure what to do, but I'm confident with the power of Scepters in the list, because they do quite a lot game 1 at winning games.

I'll probably play Gobs next week, we had like 5 merfolk players last week...

Also, I was thinking of dropping Elspeth 2 of 1 Decree. I feel that Decree and FoF are the 'speedier' versions of Elspeth and Jace. Drawing multiple planeswalkers suck (you can argue you want multiples because they will answer them, but truth is, do you really want to tap out and play a Planeswalker to get it countered and lose because you tapped out? No, you want to play them when you have the position to protect it, therefore multiple planeswalkers in hand sucks). Decree gives about 3-5 activations of Elspeth when cycled, and gives a defensive position, FoF is Jace on drugs but cannot argubly replace Jace simply because Jace is powerful. I'm working and testing a list which has 1 Decree, 1 FoF as redundant slots for the 2nd Elspeth and 3rd Jace, and since both Decree/FoF fulfill the slots of Planeswalkers with the benefit of not being the multiple card-slots, I think this maybe worth a try. Just a suggestion out there, am I getting it entirely wrong or does that sound reasonable?

There are quite a number of times where I wished Elspeth was Elspeth 2/Decree of Justice (mainly wishing i had more chump blockers), and there were many times where I just needed to see more cards than a Jstorm. I guess running 2 SDT over FoF is argubly better since it digs constantly from the start of the game, but drawing cards off FoF and clearly shaff is too strong in the mid/lategame that matters.

Mana Drain

11-24-2010, 01:34 PM

GGoober

11-24-2010, 02:05 PM

fallenpheonix, why the cut in EEs? I realize it may be slow in a faster metagame, but would handle EtW from the Belcher and ANT deck, sweeps the board against MeatHooks, kills Mongoose in the Tempo deck, and is still of merit in the Fish match, where you can usually 2for1 or at the least blow up a vial. And that's just looking at the matchups you posted. EE has been run as a 3-of for years for a reason. It's damn useful, and easily the most versatile removal we have.

I understand the feelling that Standstill can be lackluster, but it's pretty much the best draw-spell U-control has at it's disposal. This is a sad statement to make, but more or less true. As soon as you take it out of the deck, it really alters how you play. You no longer get to be aggressive and slam one down on the second/third turn to slow the game to a crawl. It alters how opponents play against you, always trying to keep a threat on the board so they don't let you Ancestral for 2 mana. FoF is the only other conceivable draw spell that has any merit whatsoever, and while amazing, it changes the way the deck plays dramatically. It forces you to be far more cautious with removal and sponge more damage than is generally considered "comfortable". It's fine as a 1-2of *supplement* to Standstill, but taking Standstill out of the deck turns it into much more of a draw-go deck, instead of taking initiative and dropping threats like Jace/Humility/Elspeth/DoJ/whatever.

Metalwalker, if your meta is heavy in Merfolk, you probably should be playing red. Engineered Plague is not nearly as good against Merfolk as it is against Goblins, and Firespout is simply amazing against both. Red blasts in the board also make Merfolk a lot easier, in addition to being useful vs. any blue deck. But if you're going to stick with black, you definitely need 3-4 EPlague, in addition to 6-7 total sword effects between the MD and SB. Humility still does a number on Fish, and they don't run removal (generally). Just do everything in your power to keep LoA off the table, because he negates all of your Elspeths, DoJs and Factories. This is where the Swords/Paths/Blasts come into play.

Really, I think you should probably be playing Ugbx. It handles all of those matchups listed very effectively. Check that thread for ivanpei's list, as he has a pretty solid SB that metagames for Combo. Extirpate kills Loam, and you have Deeds, EEs, and Grips to remove any Chalices. Duress and MM's in the board significantly help the Combo match and are useful in a variety of matchups. Plagues, Paths, Deeds, and EEs hate on Fish decks. Never underestimate the power of Deed to just blow people out of the game.
It's better equipped to deal with a wider range of strategies than any of the UWx lists can be tuned to. Oh yeah, it also has a dramatically better VVSurvival matchup than UWx can ever claim to have, but who knows how long that matchup will be relevant.

I've been working on a non-Standstill based U-control deck for the last two weeks, and it's really difficult to find draw engines in Legacy. To any doubters who think that Standstill is not the best draw spell we have, try building a control deck without it. Jace is probably the best card advantage machine we'll ever have, but he's mostly used as a finisher, takes time to get online, and is always a the biggest target on the board, thus we need something to supplement him i.e. Standstill/FoF/etc. I should be posting the list I have in the N&D deck section in the near future, so we'll see where that goes.

Good luck everyone!

I'm aware that UWr > UWb against Merfolks, but I think Gobs > Merfolks if it is that Merfolk heavy :P

I've tested EPlague against tribal. It's a beating against Goblins but not so much against Merfolks. It usually requires you to cast it at 4 mana since they run Daze. Unlike Gobs, Folks run way too many lords that EPlague basically shrinks them so you don't die faster. UWb is not designed to beat Merfolks. It's mostly designed to beat the other aggro matchups and have a stronger control/combo matchup, which is what I'm fond of. I don't find Merfolks impossible to beat, but they're definitely the tougher aggro matchup.

Oh trust me, LoA is like Bob in Legacy when I play Landstill. He never sticks, I will never waste an StP on a Folk and always keep it for LoA, or at least always know that I have outs to LoA or it's game over. Just as the Merfolk player knows how to bait counter and removal, as the control player I know that they are doing just this, so I will always keep an emergency backup answer to LoA while trying to control the board with what else I have.

Regarding control lists, I've tried without Standstills but I think the power of Standstill in creatureless control decks is priceless. I personally think that as long as the meta isn't 50% or greater saturated with Merfolks, 3 Standstill is a solid choice for any control deck not runnign creatures as their main win condition. For instance, my Punisher deck is a Countertop PFires/Groves control deck that plays 3 Standstill. A lot of non-conventional Landstill/non-Landstill lists I make contain 3 Standstill. The reason being: If you're opting for a pure-control deck i.e. without Goyfs or creatures, then you are usually in a situation where you are trading counter/removal 1-1 on opponent's creatures, or using cards to save your ass. When the tide has died down, how do you win if you and your opponents are both in a state of similar card/board-parity? You play Standstill, which not only breaks the board parity in your favor (assuming you play manlands) but also it breaks card-parity by forcing them to crack it, and from there on, give you the winning position.

Good luck on the list and I hope to see it soon. I've put aside my Punisher list for now since the meta is no longer focused on tribal/Merfolks. PFires/Groves aint' too great when the meta is Survival dominant although I can tell you how awesome it is at pinging Hierarchs and pridemages and slowing those decks down while setting up for wins later on.

fallenphoenix

11-24-2010, 03:34 PM

I understand the feelling that Standstill can be lackluster, but it's pretty much the best draw-spell U-control has at it's disposal.

I also thought that it was the best draw spell in Legacy for quite some time. But recently it just never felt as unfair as before to drop a Standstill, except vs decks where the matchup is already pretty favorable (i.e. stupid Aggro, slower Aggro/Control).
Even when it was good, it wasn't much better than Compulsive Research, because I almost always had a spare land or dead cards in my hand.

why the cut in EEs?
You already named the reason, it's too slow.
Firespout does most of the jobs EE does, but it's waaayy more efficient in most situations. Actually, most of the threats nowadays are creatures or Survival of the Fittest. EE deals with neither of them efficiently enough. I still run one because it's flexible enough to occasionally be useful w/o being dead most of the time. But it's pretty close to being cut entirely.

Ahh, how I miss the days when Ruins+EE meant *GG* from most opponents :)

Felidae

11-25-2010, 06:31 AM

Actually the biggest threads for Landstill are Aethar Vial, Chalice of the Void, Surviival of the Fittest and Tendrils of Agony. Explosiv is perfect against at least 3 of them, considering that you can allways keep Survival of the table via Snare and then use EE to blow up their field of creatures with cc2 (wich are quite a lot in the UG build).

Aggro Loam ha never be a problem for me, as Meddling Mage can handle this deck pretty damn well plus you got the above mentioned Explosives and usualy enought basics to prevent recurring Wastelands from hurting you.

Currently I'm heading for Ur Dreadstill, as Landstill has lost to much power in my eyes to be as good as it was some moths ago, hopefully this will change post b/r.

fallenphoenix

11-25-2010, 11:22 AM

I must dissent.

- Chalice doesn't see any play around here (probably b/c the decks including it are so awful right now).

- Aether Vial is a valid threat and probably the one single card that explosives can handle adequatly.

- Survival is a big one, but you can't be serious about Explosives being good against it. Sure, EE can kill a Survival one turn 4 (turn 3 if you spend two turns on it), but that's a little bit too late and they get a bunch of free activations regardless. They get at least 2-3 cards out of it by dumping Genesis, Squee, Vengevine or whatever and getting Witness or Fauna Shaman to kick your butt once you blow up explosives.

- Tendrils? I wouldn't call that real a threat. That's like calling Lightning Bolt a threat because it can dome you.

All of the above (except Tendrils) are artifacts btw, so the "best" solution would actually be Disenchant? Not really, because you forgot about all these:

- Nacatl, Tarmogoyf, LoA, Coralhelm Commander, Knight of the Reliquary, Fauna Shaman, Vengevine, Dark Confidant, Grim Lavamancer, etc...

My guess would be, for every single Aether Vial or Survival I encounter, I see 6-7 of the above. And Swords/Path/Bolt/Fire/Firespout/Humility all are much more efficient and/or effective against them.

EE is an okay card b/c it's versatile, but far from awesome.

klaus

11-25-2010, 07:09 PM

EE is an okay card b/c it's versatile, but far from awesome.

EE is a mandatory 3-of, irrespective of metagames and shell variants, period.
It is far from not being awesome.

ChiiMagic

11-25-2010, 07:18 PM

EE is a mandatory 3-of, irrespective of metagames and shell variants, period.
It is far from not being awesome.

I couldn't agree more. Nothing short of a banning of EE could get me to stop playing it.

Felidae

11-26-2010, 07:38 AM

So Tendrils leads us to TES or ANT , I hope this was quite clear, sorry if you got this wrong (and even in this MU EE can kill a bunch of Goblin Token if they go for this option (and yes in this case it's 1 turn faster then Firespout). Explosiv can't really deal with a resolved Survival if it isn't allready in play, however if I look at the current UG VV Survival list then you can usually set up EE on 2 even if they don't have a Survival online, as the deck has only acces to Stifle to prevent EE (or waiting to have Survival +2 creatures in there hand to start the Engine, giving you all in all more time to dig for solutions). I don't say that Explosiv is a real answer against this deck, but it surely is a lot more versatil then Spout.

I can see that in a meta where Zoo, Merfolk and Survival are the dominant factor you might consider Firespout over Explosives, however this card provides an answer against nearly everything. Nacatle, Lavamancer, Kird Ape? check. LoA, Coralhelm, Silvergill Adept? check. Tarmogoyf and KotR (aka to big for Firespout)? check. Any non creature with cc0-3/4? check.

GGoober

11-26-2010, 11:55 AM

EE deals with turn 1 Vial, that's enough for it to warrant playing since Vial decks are your worst aggro matchups.

Opponent: turn 1 Vial
You: EE@1
Opponent: Drop a 2cmc Dude and sighs as you blow up his Vial and you plow EOT drop a Standstill

Or he could be a noob and vial in Lackey in response to the EE.

EE improves the weak matchups that are otherwise difficult to beat: Stax/Bloodmoon/Enchantress/Opposing EE/Chalice/Counterbalance.

I can't state how powerful it is against Chalices/Counterbalance since you can set it to funky cmcs with all the colorless mana sources you run.

Iron Buddha

11-26-2010, 12:39 PM

Aether Vial is the only card that forces you to run EE. But if you have other ways to deal with Aether Vial (Nevinyrral's Disk and Humility) then it's definitely not mandatory, because it's a bit slow. I personally run 0 mainboard, but 3 in my SB to deal with Pithing needle and it's one of the best weapons against Zoo and Merfolk.

fallenphoenix

11-26-2010, 06:54 PM

Opponent: turn 1 Vial
You: EE@1
Opponent: Drop a 2cmc Dude and sighs as you blow up his Vial and you plow EOT drop a Standstill

Unless you play some Moxen on the way, I don't see this happing.

More like:
Opp T1 - Island, Vial, go
You3 T1 - Land, EE@1, go
Opp T2 - "Oh, how nice, you're tapped out!" Island, Merfolk Lord, go
You3 T2 - Land, Blow up EE, go
Opp T3 - "Oh, how nice, you're tapped out!" Land, Merfolk Lord, Attack for 3, go
You3 T3 - "Oh crêpe!"

This isn't much better on the play, they still get a guy into play while you are busy handling their one-drop. And they have a gazillion cards that disrupt you, when you try to recover from that loss of tempo.

It's not that EE is a bad card, it's just too damn slow vs most decks that define my metagame (i.e. Survival, Merfolk, Zoo).
It does nothing vs a horde of Vengevines coming at you (Firespout is not much better but at least it does clear the board for a turn) and not enough vs the namesake card itself.
It is (imho) too slow vs Merfolk, especially it's just worse compared to Firespout as a sweeper.
It is okay vs Zoo, but again, Fiespout does get rid of most of their stuff and Swords/Spell Snares get the rest.
Yeah, it's better vs. tokens of all kinds, but that doesn't make that much of a difference.

However, that's just my experience and whatever works for you may be just fine.
But sitting there, saying something like "3 EEs is mandatory, period, no metagames apply!" is just pretty dumb? I mean, you could actually produce an argument. I know you can do better, klaus. :)

serendib

11-27-2010, 03:40 AM

Sorry guys don't want to be arrogant, but i cannot understand a couple of things:

why is people playing firespout over wrath ??? no reason to my view. is the reason merfolk and all his daze/catcher/pierce? So please run 4 peacekeeper side with 2/3 jace maindeck and stop crying about merfolk mach-up. PK is GG even with 100 vialsl and lords on board.

survival is the hot card at the moment right? what's the card that kill survival decks? OH yeah! the one in my deck!!! IT'S HUMILITY!
the issue is not to destroy survival's enchantment, but to survive with a couple of remouvals and counters until you drop humility.
... of course destroying it is good. but you want to destroy in order to drop humility still alive!

and here comes cunning wish: It should be 2X and mostly targetting enlightened tutor for humility. also pulse of the fields shoud be in 100%.

in this metegame control deck is the right choice... just need to understand what's important and what is not

the hot cards of landstill in this meta are to my view:

2 humility
4 peacekeeper side + jace main (which is good also vs survival deck...)
2 cunning wish mainboard (come on, don't tell me the metagame is fast !)... also to have 4 virtual humility

... i see people running just 1 of these 8 metagame cards ...
and of course complaining about merfolk speed and survival strength.

maybe i am wrong... what you think?

kiblast

11-27-2010, 07:38 AM

The Treefolk Master

11-27-2010, 07:49 AM

I'm running 1 Humility and 1 Moat, but my meta is completely full of Goblins, Zoo, Merfolk, and other random aggro decks. There is not so much survival.

I run 3 Peacekeeper in the sideboard.

I persnoally dislike Cunning Wish, found it too slow and clunky to be useful.

Just my two cents.

kiblast

11-27-2010, 08:38 AM

and here comes cunning wish: It should be 2X and mostly targetting enlightened tutor for humility.

running directly 3x enlightened seems a better idea, unless you don't want to tutor a tutor , wich gives basically access to your humility on turn 5 (turn 3 cunning wish, turn 4 enlightened, turn 5 draw and cast humility). If you think that answering even a subpar aggro deck on the 5th turn is good, probably you never played against goblins, merfolk, or Zoo. You can't always rely on Wog because you run 2 of them and they're not even tutorable. I think one should have instant access to his Humility / Moat at any time in the game, and within 1 turn maximum be able to cast it.Turn 4 Humility/ Moat VS turn 5 really, REALLY makes the difference and saves your ass.

serendib

11-27-2010, 11:22 AM

i would not run cunning toolbox when i can play enlightened tutor toolbox wich is much faster, much more useful pre and post sb, and generates insane card advantage when it fetches standstill.
I mean: land, go, force their threat, eot tutor a standstill, turn 2 standstill. To me this sounds broken.

so the situation at the end of your turn 2 is:

you have 2 lands in play + standstill + 2 cards in hand !!! 2 cards in hand!!! (and tapped out)
(what happened if opponent had daze on your stanstill ? I can tell you... you lost!)

while opponent has 6 cards but has not started his 2nd turn.

do you think that's broken??? I don't think so. opponent would draw (so he has 7 cards) and play somethink and make you draw 3. you rise to 5 cards tapped out. WOW.

cool play. but not that cool.

I would use card-disadvantage cards only for really broken plays. such as wish->tutor-> humility.
and wish doesn't allways be card disadvantage.

...humility on turn 5 (turn 3 cunning wish, turn 4 enlightened, turn 5 draw and cast humility)...

this is to my view a really poor play because you make your opponent understand what you want to do 2 turn after!
turn 4 cunning wish.

cunning wish is 1 turn slower than searching humility via enlightened tutor maindeck.
Sorry but landstill is not afraid of goblins.
landstill is afraid of merfolk and thus i run 4 peacekeeper side.
... zoo match up. cunning wish has pulse of the fields as target most of times vs zoo... don't you think pulse of the fields is a good target???

Mana Drain

11-27-2010, 01:31 PM

All right Serendib,

1) Humility is a great card. No arguing this. But it is not the be-all-end-all card you say it is. It's amazing vs. decks with a low threat density, but against Tribal and Zoo, it's yet another card that is irrelevant until AT LEAST turn 4, and that's under the assumption that you make all of your land drops, which is more difficult to do in practice than in theory. I completely support running 2, but don't expect it to just beat aggro. It reduces the damage, it doesn't stop it, and you need sweepers like Firespout or EE to blunt the assault. Against Zoo, 4 turns is plenty of time to put you in burn range. Against Gobs, you need to hit 4 lands including 2 white through Waste and Port, all while keeping Lackey and friends off the board. Against Folk, you trying to resole a *lol* 4 mana enchantment through Daze/Pierce/Waste/Stifle/Force while trying to not get overrun by Lords or blown out by their Standstill. Which leads me to my next point:

2) Against Zoo and Tribal, Firespout is the best card you can have in your hand in Legacy. 3 mana, sweep the board. 3 mana to buy you some time to lay down Humility or whatever. You cannot hope to survive fast aggro on the back of 4 mana bombs alone, because getting through land and mana hate is more difficult to do in real life. This is why people run Firespout. Against the decks it's not effective, you probably have a good matchup against anyway. I'm not trying to proselytize people to join the Church of Red, but really, the card is a completely viable metagame choice. There is no reason to hate on it.

3) PK. I have had amazing success with 3 in my board for months, but the card is not the "1337 hax" you seem to think it is. It's amazing against Merfolk (that aren't splashing a color), some VVSur builds, Dredge, and S&T Emrakul decks. Those are the only notable decks it's playable against, and these decks are preparing for it. Any Uw or Ub Merfolk build will have plenty of answers for it G2. UG Survival (which is the only variant that PK is good against) runs at least 2-4 ways to deal with her G2 and most are tutorable via Survival. Dredge and SnT decks she is still great against, but they will have answers to her like Echoing Truth, Chain of Vapor, counterspells, etc.

4) Cunning Wish is makes for a badass MD slot, but just skews your SB so much that you really have a weaker G2 against decks. You can build a SB with mostly all instants, but it's a lot harder to fit in REAL hate cards like Perish, Pithing Needle, Relic/Crypt (if no black), Firespout, PKs, additional PWs, Crucible, etc. It's an amazingly versatile card, but puts major constraints on your SB.

Don't take 4 mana for granted, if your metagame has any fast decks in it whatsoever. Wasteland is the most commonly run card in the format, and it makes 4 lands a lot harder to reach.

kiblast

11-27-2010, 02:46 PM

so the situation at the end of your turn 2 is:

you have 2 lands in play + standstill + 2 cards in hand !!! 2 cards in hand!!! (and tapped out)
(what happened if opponent had daze on your stanstill ? I can tell you... you lost!)

while opponent has 6 cards but has not started his 2nd turn.

do you think that's broken??? I don't think so. opponent would draw (so he has 7 cards) and play somethink and make you draw 3. you rise to 5 cards tapped out. WOW.

of course that example works in case you HAVE to force their threat (for example a lackey/vial), otherwise if they go land-go, eot tutor for landstill IS a great play indeed.

this is to my view a really poor play because you make your opponent understand what you want to do 2 turn after!
turn 4 cunning wish.

cunning wish is 1 turn slower than searching humility via enlightened tutor maindeck.
Sorry but landstill is not afraid of goblins.
landstill is afraid of merfolk and thus i run 4 peacekeeper side.
... zoo match up. cunning wish has pulse of the fields as target most of times vs zoo... don't you think pulse of the fields is a good target???

yeah turn 4 cunning! and turn 5 humility....that's exactly what i wrote, it doesnt matter if you cast cunning on 3rd or 4th turn. It matters that you cast Humility on 5TH turn! how do you handle goblin doing 20 damage on turn 3-4 if your humility hits the board on turn 5????
Pulse of the fields is a good target, but gaining 4 life against 1 nacatl 1 goyf and a couple of bolts (average 13 damage ) is something to laugh at....

kiblast

11-27-2010, 02:50 PM

4) Cunning Wish is makes for a badass MD slot, but just skews your SB so much that you really have a weaker G2 against decks. You can build a SB with mostly all instants, but it's a lot harder to fit in REAL hate cards like Perish, Pithing Needle, Relic/Crypt (if no black), Firespout, PKs, additional PWs, Crucible, etc. It's an amazingly versatile card, but puts major constraints on your SB.

that's exactly why i think enlightened is superior in your flex slots.

GoldenCid

11-29-2010, 08:53 PM

Hey guys!! I'm thinking on turning my UWb configuration to UWr that you sugest. Take a look to my list and if you can tell me the changes to make it red:

// Lands
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [R] Tundra
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
2 [TE] Wasteland
2 [RAV] Island (1)
2 [CS] Snow-Covered Plains
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [R] Underground Sea
1 [LG] Karakas

// Spells
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [TE] Humility
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives (*)
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
2 [6E] Wrath of God (*)
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 [SC] Decree of Justice (*)
3 [6E] Counterspell
2 [CFX] Path to Exile
1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [FNM] Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 2 [AP] Vindicate
SB: 1 [DK] Preacher
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle

Thiss gave me results but i'm trying to go back to this deck after a time and i think that zoo is a big thread for it!

(*): Where i think that change could be maken discounting that underground is replaced by volcanic black fetchs for red fetchs and so on!

Thx!!

Mana Drain

11-29-2010, 09:56 PM

Cid, using your list as the base, here is the list including red:

23-24 Lands
1 Ruins
4 Strand
3 Tarn
1 Arid Mesa (Fetching the basic plains is tech)
2 Tundra (I'm assuming only 2 due to card availability. If you have a playset, run 4)
2-3 Volcanic (if you have 3, run them)
1 Underground Sea (For Extirpate and EE at 4)
2 Island
2 Plains
4 Factory
2 Waste

4 BS
4 Standstill
4 Force
3 Snare
3 Counterspell
4 Swords
2-3 Firespout (if your meta has significant Aggro, run the 3 MD)
3 EE
2 Jace, Big Boss Man
2 Elspeth
2 Humility (This card does so much work, and has so much synergy with the deck, it's worth running 2 and pushing the curve a bit)
1 Crucible
0-2 whatever the meta warrents. If aggro heavy, these slots are the 3rd FS and a Path. If control or unknown, I would go with 2 Tops. It's ability to dig for whatever you need is invaluable in all but the fastest matchups.

SB
1-2 Path
2-3 Red blasts/Pyroblasts (depending on how blue the meta is or the prevalence of Merfolk)
3-4 Extirpate (the sole reason to run black right now. I personally feel 3 is enough)
2-3 Needle
0-1 Firespout (if you decide on only 2 MD)
X CoP:Red ( I assume you have a lot of Red running around. If so, see below)
2 Hydroblasts (if you have a lot of Red...)

(But really, the SB is completely thrown together out of nowhere. Post the matchups you most expect at your locals and we can give you a much better breakdown. Better yet, just wait until you get there and make it up on the spot depending on what you see. Landstill is mostly a meta deck after all.)

Good luck!

GoldenCid

11-30-2010, 06:12 PM

Thx mana drain for your comments. I like the list you propose except for that i, personally, prefer a UWx list: UWr or UWb not UWrb. I think that UWb version has more options for the side: Extirpate, Thoughtseize, Perish, Diabolic edit, vidicate and so on. But it's true that firespout can deal with fast aggro even better than EE and Red provides Pyroblast which could be crucial against merfolks.
If you ask me i like more the black version but i don't take the risk.
In the next days i have a big tournament in which i expect a veriated meta:

Survival (various versions)
Zoo
Any kind of combo: Storm, Dredge or even Helm / Leyline
Eva / Deadguy
Maybe merfolks...probably.

Indeed is unpredictable.

So Red or Black??

Edit: And how does the no wrath version deal with a progenitus?? countering natural order / hypergenesis??

fallenphoenix

12-01-2010, 02:39 AM

Edit: And how does the no wrath version deal with a progenitus?? countering natural order / hypergenesis??

That & Humility.

Mark Sun

12-01-2010, 09:44 AM

That & Humility.

I tried that once. Let me tell you, not a fun experience. Humility is a great card to have against that deck but it's too unstable of a way to deal with Progenitus. Why lists are not actually running a Wrath effect is beyond me.

ChiiMagic

12-01-2010, 12:47 PM

I tried that once. Let me tell you, not a fun experience. Humility is a great card to have against that deck but it's too unstable of a way to deal with Progenitus. Why lists are not actually running a Wrath effect is beyond me.
I've never included a wrath effect in any iteration of landstill I've ever built, and I never will. I feel like wrath along with humility are crutches that you certainly don't need, but I won't fault people for playing them. I've found that if you're playing correctly, you really shouldn't need WOG at all because if you allow yourself to get into a position where your opponent has 3+ uncontested creatures on the board, I would question what the hell you've been doing the entire time to let that happen. In regards to progenitus, it again comes down to how you're playing that will ultimately decide whether he'll ever touch the board. Against something like NOBant, I tend to either A) keep them off 2G, or 4 mana total or B) keep them off creatures. Ill go so far as to STP and EE Noble Hierarchs and those shitters because the only way that deck can actually beat you is via progenitus.

Felidae

12-01-2010, 03:05 PM

Keep them off creatures hardly works, as they can allways fetch for Dryad Arbor. I also don't get your impression about WoG, as a situation where the opponent has 3+ creatures on the board (and I'm not talking about 3 Vengevines here...) while we got the Wrath favors us pretty much. The idea behind Wrath is to creat a board possition where your opponent is forced to overextend in order to get x for 1 with it (however as for the current meta Firespout can almost do the same).
@ Kid:(btw I was playing the same maindeck , with a different manabase for several moths, guess its time for us to develop ;) ) I'd probably go for a version with 4 Spell Snares and a black splash, because without Goblins and just a few amount of Fish there is no real point in splashing Red (especially when there aren't any other blue based control decks to abuse Red Blast).
As for ways to deal with Progenitus without Wrath: Peacekeeper (I suppose that the usual NO Bant player sideds out his removal and Hypergenesis, SnT or Sneak Attack don't play any kind of removal at all).

ChiiMagic

12-01-2010, 03:34 PM

Felidae

12-01-2010, 03:49 PM

And so you could argue about Sword / Path against storm (while Wrath could technicly still kill a bunch of Goblins, even if I haven't seen then since a long time) or about Humility or Firespout, or... I mean c'mon if you are going to draw a Wrath if you don't need it then you can allways shuffle it back with Brainstorm / Jace.

Mana Drain

12-01-2010, 05:14 PM

This argument about sweepers is going nowhere, and neither side is really paying any attention to what the other side is playing.
Let's put it this way: If ProBant, SnT decks, or any "get big dude into play somehow" decks are prevalent in your meta, run Wrath. It is more versatile at killing off these huge men like Prog, Emrakul, etc. Period. No way to argue against this.

If your meta has a large Merfolk, Gobllins, or Zoo presence, Firespout is obviously superior. Sweeping a turn sooner with easier color requirements is just better against fast decks. Period. No way to argue against this.

Regardless of your metagame, Humility is a valid choice due to the powerlevel of the card. It's synergy with the deck is unreal and SIGNIFICANTLY decreases the power of any deck that relies on creatures to win. Just try not to clog up your 4 drop spot.

Honestly, if I was going to a GP tomorrow, I wouldn't pack less than 3 FS between the MD and SB. Otherwise, you're a bye to any competent Merfolk or Goblins pilot. And seeing as how both of those decks have been Tier 1 for some time, you really have to question your card choices vs. the metagame.

@ Kid:(btw I was playing the same maindeck , with a different manabase for several moths, guess its time for us to develop ;) ) I'd probably go for a version with 4 Spell Snares and a black splash, because without Goblins and just a few amount of Fish there is no real point in splashing Red (especially when there aren't any other blue based control decks to abuse Red Blast).
As for ways to deal with Progenitus without Wrath: Peacekeeper (I suppose that the usual NO Bant player sideds out his removal and Hypergenesis, SnT or Sneak Attack don't play any kind of removal at all).

This. If your meta is devoid of fast aggro other than Survival, black would be the superior splash. There are only 3 reasons to run black in control nowadays, but they are important reasons: 1) Extirpate 2) Perish 3) Engineered Plague. All three are solid cards in their respective matchups.
Just be warned, Engineered Plague is not going to single-handedly beat Merfolk. This is where a few PKs would be helpful. Also against the Survival matchups.
EDIT: Felidae pointed out Vindicate. It's a pretty solid piece of removal, and I feel it is more or less interchangeable with EE if playing in a slower metagame. Definitely a good SB or MD choice.

Felidae

12-02-2010, 08:22 AM

You forget to mention Vindicate, as this was my reason to splash black for quite some time, otherwise I can only agree.

GoldenCid

12-02-2010, 06:37 PM

You forget to mention Vindicate, as this was my reason to splash black for quite some time, otherwise I can only agree.

Vindicate is great! But im not sure if run it MD! Is this configuration of permanent manegment right??

2 EE
2 Vindicate
2 Jace TMS
2 Wrath
4 StP
2 PtE
1 Humility

Should i run 3 EE??

Mana Drain

12-02-2010, 07:30 PM

GoldenCid

12-02-2010, 09:06 PM

No, that is a pretty big removal suit as it is. Both cards (EE and Vindicate) are color and mana intensive, but they provide a lot of leeway in case dirty enchantments or artifacts resolve. Also, it's an out to a resolved PW, which this deck has problems with. That removal lineup looks pretty solid at handling anything that resolves, so no need for another unit of removal.

Glad to read that. Anyway i was referring of running 3 EE istead running 2 Vindicate. For example 3 EE + something.
But if you look solid (i look it so) it's ok for me.

kiblast

12-02-2010, 09:19 PM

ChiiMagic

12-03-2010, 04:06 PM

while tesying various builds/wincons, i noticed this as a possible finisher:

http://magicgameplan.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/celestial-colonnade.jpg

played as a 2x with maindeck enlightened tutor to have safe recursion with crucible, and maybe teferi's response to protect your manlands (6 total with mishra's) could be a nice wincon. what do you think?

My group and I looked into colonade when it first came out as a replacement for the 2 faerie conclaves that I currently have in my build. I wouldn't run it because I often found that being able to activate a manland within the first few turns of the game can be pretty critical to surviving an aggro rush or something, but I wouldn't discourage it completely. I would suggest you stick it in your deck and try it out. If you like how it plays out, let us know, because I've only tested it briefly.

kiblast

12-03-2010, 04:53 PM

currently Colonade it's in 2x in my build.
I have to say that UWx (UWb in my case) has a pretty good capacity to survive fast aggro plans, if you build a solid removal wall.
Currently my spot removals/mass removals slots are:

4x swords to plowshares (we all agree on these)
3x EE (arguably the best undercosted catch-all removal we can slap in this deck, 3x mandatory) fetchable with 3x enlightened
2x path to exile
2x wrath of god
1x humility (fetchable, too)

with these, combined with 3 spell snare, i have experienced a fairly good chance at beating swarming decks.
Colonade to me has proven very useful in closing games easily. Just 3-4 attacks in conjunction with one or two mishra's lets you win easily, after wiping their board.
The only downside is that you have to increase the number of lands in your deck..now i'm playing with 26 lands, and cutted off all other win cons, relying only on manlands.
I know this sounds pretty risky but i have experienced good results until now.

GGoober

12-03-2010, 04:58 PM

Chii, I haven't tested Conclave but from experiences losing Factories to survive an aggro rush, it's a pretty terrible feeling (losing that landdrop is quite sad), and a 2/1 Faerie hardly kills anything except tribal. Do you find yourself chump blocking to survive often?

If no, then I think Colonnade maybe better on paper (never tested it), since I personally use my Manlands to win-games late game (5+ mana out). I usually don't risk swinging with manlands early since I'll be either tapping out or risk losing my land to an stP or have to counter their StP wasting my counterspell and opening myself to an opposing goyfs.

I can see the strengths in Colonnade. I've played it in some Standard and although being quite expensive to activate, it was a great win-condition. I think its main selling point is that it is left untapped after attacking and fucking FLIES to eat Planeswalkers, or the flying is great at racing when you're in the mid-game. I personally see myself playing 2 Colonnades over 2 Faeries since I never ever want to block and lose my creatures unless I'm forced to survive (to which I'm already in a bad position unless I can topdeck Jace or Scepter). What's nice about Colonnade is that it provides a similar win-condition like the good old Eternal Dragon but doesn't cost a non-land card slot in deck design (although most people treat EDragon as a landdrop slot in their decks). Colonnade is also quite beastly under Humility O_O

I might test it out in a heavier UW list with minimal splash color. Keep us updated kiblast.

kiblast

12-03-2010, 05:40 PM

I can see the strengths in Colonnade. I've played it in some Standard and although being quite expensive to activate, it was a great win-condition. I think its main selling point is that it is left untapped after attacking and fucking FLIES to eat Planeswalkers, or the flying is great at racing when you're in the mid-game. I personally see myself playing 2 Colonnades over 2 Faeries since I never ever want to block and lose my creatures unless I'm forced to survive (to which I'm already in a bad position unless I can topdeck Jace or Scepter). What's nice about Colonnade is that it provides a similar win-condition like the good old Eternal Dragon but doesn't cost a non-land card slot in deck design (although most people treat EDragon as a landdrop slot in their decks). Colonnade is also quite beastly under Humility O_O

I might test it out in a heavier UW list with minimal splash color. Keep us updated kiblast.

Yeah Metalwarker, basically everything you said is true and describes perfectly why i'm running it. It is way more complete and resilient than Faerie Conclave, but it's used at the peak of its potential only in a very third-color light build. My build runs no black cards maindeck, so i can fetch only for U/W all the time, and then post side the black splash gets in...
Trust me, swinging for 4 flying damages, and then have him untapped to block again feels like omnipotence on the board; although this is achievable only on turn 11th-12th at least, but when you get there...it's quite beastly :)

ChiiMagic

12-03-2010, 06:55 PM

Chii, I haven't tested Conclave but from experiences losing Factories to survive an aggro rush, it's a pretty terrible feeling (losing that landdrop is quite sad), and a 2/1 Faerie hardly kills anything except tribal. Do you find yourself chump blocking to survive often?

Not too often, because with my build the mana is way more important to the game plan, but I vividly remember getting to trade my faerie conclave up for a Gaddock Teeg and Vendilion Clique on different occaisons. To be honest, I still haven't had an opportunity to play ANY legacy since GenCon worlds, so this huge surge in survival's popularity hasn't impacted me at all, and my deck is still geared for slightly older metagame. I might want to look into the prospect of the Colonade again, but I might want to wait until after the December banning to see how things shift if anything takes place.
Which brings me to my next point.do you guys think survival is going to get banned? And if so, how do you see the metagame shifting, and do you think a ban in survival would bring more players back to UW Landstill?

JamieW89

12-03-2010, 08:38 PM

I'm currently on this list:

// Main: 60
4x Brainstorm
3x Standstill
2x Top
2x Jace, TMS

4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Engineered Explosives
2x Firespout
2x Elspeth, KE
2x Pithing Needle

4x Force of Will
3x Spell Snare
2x Counterspell
1x Spell Pierce

4x Flooded Strand
3x Polluted Delta
4x Tundra
2x Volcanic Island
1x Underground Sea
1x Scrubland
2x Island
2x Plains
4x Mishra's Factory
1x Celestial Colonnade

// Side: 15
4x Ethersworn Canonist
3x Peacekeeper
3x Extirpate
2x Path to Exile
2x Perish
1x Firespout

Concerns:
My main issue with this list is that I don't have alot against control, which might be problematic.
The 2 Peedles main could also be paths, vindicates or something else.
I might replace the 4th Tundra with the 4th Delta as fetch is awesome in 4c.
I don't like top in quite a few matchups. I could cut it for the 4th standstill and something else.

mossivo1986

12-05-2010, 04:19 AM

JamieW89

I looked at your list and I really feel like it suffers from trying to be too cute. Land still is all about redundancy, and while a lot of times there are one ofs in the arch type they usually have a designed purpose specifically for meta game choices. Now as you didn't mention anything about your specific meta game i'm going to assume that you were thinking "slick tech bro" syndrome.

1x Celestial Colonnade
2x Pithing Needle (main)
1x Spell Pierce (main)
2 black duals with 3 pate in the board

1. Celestial Colonnade
This is legacy. Thats not going to be a difference maker. Unlike Monestary which costs two and thresh, this costs five and doesn't win you the game. Sure it's super sweet and gets around choke, but is that really what you had in mind as a win condition?

Clearly landstill "could" play this card, but I think the real question is does it "need to." Also Landstill hasn't had the ability to run CITPT lands since the format banned Mana Drain.

2. Pithing Needle
You didn't address what reasoning you had for even playing this card in the maindeck. Sure postboard its a fine card to side into specific matchups. I think clearly Path is the stronger answer preboard due to the immense aggro decks in this format that you would side it in against anyways. Simply put right now there are fewer times where you side path out then where you would side needle in.

3. Spell Pierce
Why is this in your deck? Your not a tempo oriented strategy IE canadian thresh, merfolk, bant, etc, and you don't run wasteland to make this at all effective. Cut it immediately. You run 4 cannonist post-board, so clearly your alittle combo heavy, but I think playing a 3rd counterspell is a much better option then wasting the slot on a tempo counter.

4. 2 Black Duals, 3 Extirpate.
This is just a "feeling" to me, but it feels wrong. Yes I know you have access to these duals through fetches, but then against firespout "feels" wrong to me in landstill right now as well.

0 Wasteland/ Dust bowl is clearly a mistake

GGoober

12-05-2010, 11:59 AM

0 Wasteland/ Dust bowl is clearly a mistake

Very true. I have been trying to cut Wastelands due to the colored requirements of the deck but I felt that not running at least 2 Wastelands costs me more games than the color screw. You need to be able to answer Manlands and opposing ports in the tougher matchups. Landstill will never preemptively waste opponent's lands, but when you need to (against combo, if you get wastelock), it becomes an option. But I say that 2 Wasteland should be a minimum.

@Needle: There's seldom dead targets just as there's seldom dead targets for Stifles and Extirpates, but here I agree with moss. The main thing why Extirpate is still a bad maindeck card despite the current meta is due to the couple of reasons why good cards like Needle are still bad in the MD:

- Needle/Pate win games by themselves. That's true. But without Needles/Pate, you should still be able to win the games that you could have won without them. Needle/Pate will cost games where they are irrelevant or become dead draws. So you have to weigh whether you are truly expecting a meta that requires Needle/Pate to win games. If you can alwready have a favorable game without Needle/Pate (e.g. against VV just pack more Paths/StP that are great against a ton of other decks), then move those to the SB.

However if the meta is so skewed like Standard affinity v.s. anti-affinity, then MD Annul becomes totally a viable option (referring to Nassif's anti-affinity UW Exalted Angel control deck). But at this point, Survival is dominant, but nowhere as threatening as Flash Hulk etc. In fact, Landstill is one of those decks that already have a better matchup against Survival than other decks even without too much changes to the older lists. We all agree that more swords is better, UWb is better, Humility is stronger than WoG against Vengevival.

JamieW89

12-05-2010, 07:48 PM

I actually do agree with you on the Peedles, they don't belong in the main. Now the question is what to replace them with? I'm considering Vindicates, Cunning Wishes and Path to Exiles mainly.
The wishes are a tad slow and take up extra SB slots (although I'd have the Path and Extirpate in there anyways), but offers some very nice versatility. It also ups the blue count, which is never a bad thing.
Vindicates are the swiss army knife of magic, but I don't like the WB in the manacost.
Paths are cheap removal and a great card in important matchups such as aggro and Vengevival.

The singleton Spell Pierce can counter vials, discard etc. T1 on the play. It might be a little random and the 4th Snare or 3rd CS is probably better in its place. I think I'd replace it with the 4th snare if I would.

I'm liking the deck without wastelands though. They often served as a colorless land for me, and without Vindicate I was winning less games on LD anyways. Ofcourse destroying a utility land is very good, but it color-screwed me more often than it won me a game by destroying a manland or the like.
Because of this I want to limit the colorless lands to 5. I played the 4 Factories and 1 Ruins before but ruins didn't really do that much for me either so I'm testing the Colonnade in its place now. I could also play 1 Dust Bowl or even 3 Factory/2 Waste.

I play 4 colors to be able to play Firespout (and to a lesser extent: EE on 4). It's better than WoG against goblins and miles better than WoG against merfolk. It's also on time against EtW tokens more often and it kills vengevines just as good (or bad really). This makes my manabase fairly unstable. I will probably go up to 8 fetches (and I'll actually drop the 4th Tundra to do so). So despite only having 2 red and 2 black duals I still have 10 cards in the deck which can be one of them. As noted before, this is a reason not to play wastelands, as I'd have to cut 2 lands (and colonnade) to make room for them. I don't like 5-6 fetch with 4 colors and I cannot go below 2 black/2 red/3 tundra either. And not playing basics is just something I don't like, even in this 4c shell.

Sideboard space is also an issue. I want to play quite a few cards.. Assuming I'm playing the list posted above with wishes, how would you arrange the sideboard?
I'm thinking about something like this:
4 Ethersworn Canonist (I love em, they make combo a good matchup in g2/3)
3 Peacekeeper (Great card against merfolk and quite a few other decks)
2 Perish (Against bant, elf and goyf decks that still exist somewhere)
2 Path to Exile (Good spot removal and wishable)
1 Pulse of the Fields (Best wishtarget evar)
1 Negate (Wishing for a counter is nice)
1 Extirpate (I could play more, but is there really a need?)
1 Enlightened Tutor (Finding humility/top/EE/standstill can be pretty nice) - Should I play 1 Moat/1 Humility if I do this?

This means I miss out on Needle (good against vials, survivals, wastelands and quite a bit more), plagues (which still ruin goblins and people actually play elves sometimes as well here) and quite a few other cards I'd like to squeeze in there.

kiblast

12-05-2010, 08:53 PM

1. Celestial Colonnade
This is legacy. Thats not going to be a difference maker. Unlike Monestary which costs two and thresh, this costs five and doesn't win you the game. Sure it's super sweet and gets around choke, but is that really what you had in mind as a win condition?

Clearly landstill "could" play this card, but I think the real question is does it "need to." Also Landstill hasn't had the ability to run CITPT lands since the format banned Mana Drain.

4. 2 Black Duals, 3 Extirpate.
This is just a "feeling" to me, but it feels wrong. Yes I know you have access to these duals through fetches, but then against firespout "feels" wrong to me in landstill right now as well.

0 Wasteland/ Dust bowl is clearly a mistake

1. I know this is legacy. But I've been testing celestial lately and it has proven to be quite strong, both as a board cotroller, and as a finisher. It blocks all those flying critters like Serra Avenger, Hypnotic specter and bitterblossom tokens. It removes planeswalkers by flying over the enemy lines.Wins games. I'm not saying that it should be THE win con, but has been impressive for me. I'm playing a very land heavy build with 26 lands, with the only win condition provided by manlands. On MWS (we all know that is not a very reliable testing device though) has proven to be reliable. I know it sounds absurd, but it's actually possible to win only through manlands...

4. I play the black splash. 2 black duals, 1 swamp, 4 polluteds. 3 Extirpate, 3 E-Plague and 2 Perish in sb. It works good. Instead of Firespout I maideck 2 Wrath of God, but I play 2 additional spot removal in the form of 2 Path to Exile.

One last thing: 3x Wasteland are mandatory imho.

Royal Ass.

12-06-2010, 03:16 PM

I was wondering if anyone has tried running Mimic Vat? I realize it doesn't have a lot of synergy with Swords, but would with Wrath and Standstill. Plus the deck feels like it needs a 3 drop in its mana curve. I just ordered a playset of Standstills on ebay and am looking forward to putting this deck together.

GGoober

12-06-2010, 04:46 PM

Vat will probably be alright in UGb landstill but I doubt even they would run it in place of other playables (Deeds, EE, more counters can never go wrong). UWx Landstill can't support Vat since you only get to Wrath once in a game if you're ever running wrath, everything else is EE, StP, and EE has a chance on blowing your vat up.

Mana Drain

12-07-2010, 02:40 AM

mossivo1986

12-07-2010, 05:24 PM

The deck already has a host of playable, proven cards that Vat really can't compete with. Vedalken Shackles, Crucible, Vindicate, Firespout, and to the unproven but still more effective, little Jace (don't knock him until you try him). More importantly, it takes 6 mana and a removal spell that isn't Swords to have any effect on the gamestate whatsoever.

Also, the lack of three drops in Landstill is partly due to it generally being the main "try-to-stabilize" turn, either by Swording a dude and leaving Counterspell up, countermana + Factory block, or Firespout sweep. This is generally followed by a PW/Moat/Humility/WoG, which have far more impact on the gamestate and is a series of plays which more than likely result in a win. All of the cards mentioned above are also great in the lategame in addition to being useful in the early game, whereas Vat just sits on the table until you draw Vindicate/WoG/Firespout/EE, while Goofy beats you mercilessly with his hideous arms (or whatever those things are).

Took the words out of my mouth, I completely agree with everything you just said.

I would also like to add that it is this specific reasoning which makes cards like Colonnade and such not only win/more, but just not useful comparatively to playing a safer manabase or playing a more redundant deck. I'm not downing you for talking about this card, because I think I mentioned it before when the land was spoiled; but after testing it quickly became clear that you'd rather play better cards.

Your examples of what collonade does "Serra Avenger, Hypnotic specter and bitterblossom tokens" arn't relivent. I take that back, killing opposing Mind sculpters matters, but how often is that really happening? But creatures, are not the reason to run a 5 drop manland that comes into play tapped. Not to mention that if you pay 5 mana to get your land removed its like the worst time walk ever.

mossivo1986

12-07-2010, 09:49 PM

I've been testing this model to some good results. I haven't played in sanctioned play with it yet, but I wouldn't at all be against it.

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [B] Island (2)
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
4 [B] Tundra
1 [B] Underground Sea
1 [B] Scrubland
3 [JGC] Mishra's Factory
3 [TE] Wasteland
3 [B] Plains (1)

// Creatures
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
3 [B] Counterspell
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
1 [TE] Humility
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [OD] Standstill
2 [IN] Fact or Fiction
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
2 [CFX] Path to Exile
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [B] Wrath of God

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [B] Counterspell
SB: 3 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 2 [US] Planar Void
SB: 2 [CFX] Path to Exile

I tried to give the board as many extra slots as I could while giving the deck the answers that it absolutely has. I think the md perhaps needs another humility. A third wish wouldn't hurt either. The counterspell in the board probobly needs to be a negate; it comes in against storm obviously. Planar void could probobly be 3, but I feel semi comfortable at 2 with all the testing ive done with dredge.

GGoober

12-12-2010, 01:12 PM

I took a spin with Landstill this week and did alright (missing Top 4 at my local tourney losing 2 games which were very close games)

Lands: 23
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins
3 Island
2 Plains

3 Engineered Explosives

4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares

3 Counterbalance
4 Counterspell
2 Isochron Scepter
3 Standstill

2 Cunning Wish
1 Crucible of Worlds

1 Humility
2 Jace
2 Elspeth

4 Force of Will

SB:
1 Path to Exile
1 ETutor
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Orim's Chant
3 Negates
3 Extirpate
3 Engineered Plague
2 Peacekeeper

The list was strong. It's a unconventional list running Top + Counterbalance + Scepter. I won't go too much into defending the card choices because this list was cooked up playing Countertop Landstill and Scepterstill Landstill over a period of 1 to 2 years.

The main highlights and strategic decisions in designing the deck are the following points:
1) I want to survive the early game.
My arsenal: 4 StP, 4 Force, 3 EE. I am losing 3 Spell Snares, but if my metagame demands it, I'll cut the wishes/wishboard and a Crucible to add in 3 Spell Snares. 3 Path could be another option but IMO it is inferior since the deck design takes into account of the need for more paths. The only situation I see more Paths relevant on turn 1 against decks in Legacy is: Goblins, which I already have a good matchup pre/postboard.

2) I want to maximize the power level of my cards i.e. every card I play has to be mana efficient for what it does
This dawned onto me one day (actually over 2 years) when playing the deck. Sweepers are quite critical in Landstill but my eventual opinion was: sweepers are only RELEVANT/critical depending on the meta and deck design. Landstill decks designing to sweep with Firespout/Wrath are designed to allow some threats to pass through, and force an opponent to overextend e.g. dropping Elspeth/Jace/Humility and then sealing a game with sweepers. Over years of playing, I realized that this concept was a fundamentally flawed one. Because in situations where you are setting up the game state to sweep, you have already won the game i.e. if you want your opponents to overextend, you already have won the game based on the strengths of your answers/cards. However, in situations where you lack the cards and your opponents have a crazy board, you lost. Part of the error comes with deck design. When you design a deck with sweepers, you are ultimately using the slots of sweepers over slots which could have been used to stop that situation from occuring. This lost could have been prevented if you chose a different deck design philosophy: "I do not want the board state to reach the situation where a sweeper is required to win games." And I cannot stress, at least from my personal experience/views, that the shift away from the 'sweeper' philosophy of Landstill to one that is based purely on looking at threat density v.s. answer has changed the way I view Landstill. It not only opens up more ideas to what I can play around with Landstill, but I think all in all, it's just a better philosophy. You do not want to create boardstates where you win games by sweeping, because when you fail to do so, you lose. You want to always play the control role, and never get anything out of hand. You do have 3 EEs to sweep, and they are good enough in most situations when you can get it at a two for 1. In addition, I think EE is the only true-deserving mini sweeper to be included in Landstill even if you perhaps want to go an entirely non-sweeping mentality. This is because of the flexibility of EE, and its ability to hit even non-creatures. And this flexibility is quite efficiently costed. EE is just truly beautiful in Landstill. I can never justify dropping to 2 EE (I tried) even when taking redundancy into deck design. Cards have to be dropped before the 3rd EE is considered to be dropped.

Cards that fall under this category in my decklist (lot of value for very low converted mana-cost) include:
- Brainstorm
- Swords to Plowshares
- Top
- Standstill
- Counterbalance
- Engineered Explosives
- Crucible
- Jace/Elspeth
- Humility
- Isochron Scepter

Cards that do not fall under this category (e.g. they are mostly 1-1) include:
- Force of Will (1-2 but seriously, it's just the best out there)
- Cunning Wish (it doesn't do too much, but is quite an important piece in an unknown meta).

You notice that in my list the overall curve of the deck has fallen tremendously. I used to run 2 FoF and 2 Crucibles, but I realized that running Tops did just as well in filtering relevant cards and maintaining landdrops, and is argubly sometimes more relevant than bombs like FoF/Crucible. The basis of the decklist fell on a single card: Isochron Scepter.

This card is quite underrated/undiscussed in Landstill. When I was playing Scepterstill basing off Chii's winning lists, there was one thing I noted. Scepterchant was quite potent game one, but the true culprit was Scepter itself. Scepter without Chant is very brutal, but it does the most important thing for Landstill: creating answers that do not require any card resources. If your Scepter resolves with StP/Counterspell, you will always be up 2 cards a turn (1 from answering your opponent's play, 1 from you not needing to spend the card since it was imprinted on Scepter). The only answers that hit Scepter game 1 are: EE, Pridemage, Vindicate, Pernicious Deeds, out of which Pridemage is most widely played, but you can always setup with a Plow before resolving Scepter. The power of Scepter becomes weaker in game 2/3 when they board in answers e.g. Grips/Trygons, but the whole story is: If they do not deal with Scepter in a turn, Scepter will simply become a 2 for 2 most of the time, and will continue to become a x for 2 until the opponent answers it.

Playing lists with/without Scepter made me realize that whenever I played Scepter, I had a better chance at winning games, mostly from
1) Opponents not being able to answer it and lose to it
2) Opponents answer it with a Force, to which I 2-1'd them, and eventually bring it back with Academy Ruins
3) I just generated way too much advantage with Scepter.

You can say all you want how Scepter is bad in Landstill, but this has been my approach taking a non-sweeper perspective of Landstill and into one that is focused on maintaining a non-sweeping game state. Scepter does quite important in that respect. Postboard, Scepter becomes stupid against control/combo decks when you add in 3 Extirpates, 3 Negates, some Chants.

Counterbalance made its way into my list because I am constantly dropping 2 Tops in and out of Landstill. Tops alone didn't really do much in Landstill despite still being incredibly awesome since it fixes draws/lands while at the same time being a mini card'draw' in the deck. The more I played, the more I wanted Tops but could not justify it in a list that didn't truly abuse Top. That is when I looked into Countertop again in Landstill. I dislike Countertop in Landstill but playing more games made me realize the strengths of Landstill over regular Coutnertop lists.

It was simple: Standstill. Countertop has no Standstill but Landstill has Standstill, in synergy with manlands, and the ability to play 4 Planeswalkers and argubly more answers. Now, the question becomes, is Countertop truly good with Standstills + manlands? Countertop is inherently a control deck, but the purest form of control is Landstill since Countertop v.s. Landstill has Landstill taking on the control role. Initially I dismissed Counterbalance in Landstill because it didn't do much for the deck, but the more I realized the shift of my sweeper mentality into a non-sweeper mentality, Counterbalance became a crucial piece in the puzzle. I needed a card, that could generate me advantage over turns if it resolves. You do blind flip Counterbalance once in awhile but you have 4 Brainstorms, 3 Tops, 2 Jace, and possibly 2 Scepter/Brainstorm to filter it. Your curve primarily focuses on 1/2, and will give some decent chances with blindflipping. Putting technicalities aside, Counterbalance has performed tremendously well in my list. One big reason was: I have a lot of things my opponents have to answer: Top, Counterbalance, Isochron Scepter, Planeswalkers. The amount of must-answers in my deck increases the chances of either my Countertop engine or Scepter-engine sticking in play.

Counterbalance + Standstill + Top also provides you with even more digging to flip for Counterbalance. You put CB/Standstill trigger on stack, and resolve according if you want to draw 3 first before flipping CB or flip CB before drawing. But the true power of Standstill was improved with the addition of Top. Top not only sets up a board state for Standstill (by digging for answers to clean the board before dropping Standstill), but a Top under Standstill just maximizes your gamestate if they do not crack the Standstill. You will always filter for lands or keep relevant cards in your hand under Standstill with Top. And when they finally cracked Standstill, you draw 3 , and dig 3 deeper with Top. All in all, once again, mana cost-efficiency for what the cards do are key in the philosophy of my card choices and deck design.

There are many games where dropping a Scepter early or Counterbalance early aids in setting up either engine. I think I'm drifting quite off-topic, but this was a list I wanted to share. I worked on it over 2 weeks, but the idea has been there unexplored for over 2 years. I'll probably never drop 2 Scepters off my list when I play Landstill, but I'm still testing configurations of 3 Top, 3 Counterbalance in my list, and testing if this supplments the overall goals of the deck. And to people thinking this deck needs 4 Top and 4 Counterbalance, please go to the Countertop thread. My list is not a Countertop list. It is a Landstill list that uses Countertop as an additional source of resource. And I feel 4 Top + 4 Counterbalance is a weak combination of cards since you are saying that you are solely relying on the back of Countertop to win games, which once again differentiates the differences between Landstill and Countertop (Landstill being the more diverse metagame true-control deck).

Antonius

12-17-2010, 08:31 AM

I've brainstormed up this list and look forward to testing it:

4 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Island
2 Plains
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island

2 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory

1 Academy Ruins

3 Jace, TMS

4 Standstill
1 Humility

1 Life from the Loam
3 Firespout

4 Engineered Explosives

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
2 Intuition
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Path to Exile

SB--

2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Sell Pierce
1 Firespout
2 Krosan Grip

The mainboard, for the most part, is pretty standard, with the big new inclusion being intuition + loam (something taken from the ubg playbook) and spout from the red splash. I really want to find room for MD Nature's Claims (soooo hot in the meta right now, such a good card) and maybe more removal in the from of lightning bolt or Fire/Ice. However, there's just not enough room. Only things that might be on the chopping block are an EE or two and Humility. If humility goes, then maybe i can cut the second basic plains, as the deck should run smoothly with 23 lands.

kiblast

12-19-2010, 05:59 AM

I had a small (very small) tournament here in my hometown yesterday with an UWb build (3x Enlightened Tutor, 2x Jace, and the rest is almost the standard list) and I realized one thing: you can't beat AggroLoam, unless they screw and we have a damn good hand.I had a 4 rounds swiss, ending 2-1-1 , with my only loss to AggroLoam after a single 48 minutes match. I end up loosing at semi-finals, 0-2 to the same AggroLoam. I'm currently running 3 Enlightened maindeck, with a little tutor box in the main and MU dedicated- box in sb.

My sb was:

2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Extirpate
2 Engineered Plague
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Pithing Needle
2 Spell Pierce
1 Energy Flux

If they menage to drop turn 1 Chalice at 1, we're basically screwed unless we hit an EE, wich is hard considering that we can't play Brainstorms and Tutor. Even post sb a single Chalice wrecks our entire hate, considering that our only hope is to topdeck a Crypt or transmute into one. I'm considering adding the 3rd-4th spell pierce in sb, so i can have some hope against fast Chalices and Loams. Buying tempo by countering their Loams is not so good, but sometimes you need to do it. I even thought adding a 4th spell snare in sb, considering that their key spells are at 2 cmc (Loam, Chalice at 1, 'Goyf, Confidant). Another option would be a singleton tutorable Karn, to eat his Moxes and Chalices.What do you think?

Felidae

12-19-2010, 06:40 AM

kiblast

12-19-2010, 07:08 AM

I have to admit that I'm still suprised that most of you consider Aggro Loam a real thread, as I never had any problems. My plan was usually to drop G1 as soon as they had Loam + Wasteland (pointless to fight here without a way to remove Loam) and them board in enought hate to smash them G2 /3 .
For reference my sideboard (stand Nov.2010)
3 Meddling Mage
2 Relic
1 Crypt
2 Preacher / Peacekeeper
2 Negate
2 Vindicate
3 Hydroblast

Would you mind sharing your list, as I'm curious about your Enlighted toolbox ( and where you got the place to squeez in 3 Tutors, as I'm allways deperatly looking for space in my list).

Here's my list:

md:

2 Flooded Strand
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Academy ruins
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Tundra
1 Tolaria West
3 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
1 Celestial Colonnade
1 Volcanic Island

3 Engineered Explosives
3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Spell snare
3 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Wrath of God
1 Humility
2 Path to Exile
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

sb:

2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Extirpate
2 Engineered Plague
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Pithing Needle
2 Spell Pierce
1 Energy Flux

I noticed that you use Meddling Mages in sb. Do you side them in against Loam? Calling Loam is really SO helpful considering that they have a lot of way to remove them (Pernicious and EE come to mind)?

GoldenCid

12-19-2010, 09:37 AM

In the last posts i noticed in the list you share that yuo're running just 1 PW for the win...elspeth or jace but not both? What is this due to??

Felidae

12-19-2010, 09:44 AM

kiblast

12-19-2010, 09:52 AM

Yeah, I side them in against nearly everthing, Loam,Lands, Enchantress, TES, Ichorid , Control ... the list goes on ;).
And yes calling Loam, Burning Wish or any kind of removal for him is damn helpfull (you do realize that we can handle their removal right?)

Yes, we can handle their removal, but only if we can keep them off from the whole Witness / loam / deck thinning with cycle and dredge / grave recursion. Wich is a difficult task to accomplish. Maybe with Meddling Mages in sb it gets easier, I'll test them for sure.

In the last posts i noticed in the list you share that yuo're running just 1 PW for the win...elspeth or jace but not both? What is this due to??

What list are you talking about? mine?

I'm testing 2 Jace as a single win con, and Colonnade as an added win con. I traded Eslpeth game breaking abilities with Enlightened tutor flexibility. I'm still studying the list, maybe I'll add the 3rd Jace / orsingleton Elspeth in the future, cutting some Tutors. I really don't know, the viable cards pool is just so big for Landstill, there are plenty of solutions to try.

The Treefolk Master

12-19-2010, 11:52 AM

Here's my list:

md:

2 Flooded Strand
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Academy ruins
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Tundra
1 Tolaria West
3 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
1 Celestial Colonnade
1 Volcanic Island

3 Engineered Explosives
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Spell snare
3 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Wrath of God
1 Humility
2 Path to Exile
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Am I blind, or there are no E. Tutors there? There are only 57 cards, I'm gessing you're missing 3 tutors.

kiblast

12-19-2010, 12:33 PM

Am I blind, or there are no E. Tutors there? There are only 57 cards, I'm gessing you're missing 3 tutors.

Fixed, ty.

lorddotm

12-19-2010, 02:27 PM

Mana Drain

12-19-2010, 02:57 PM

GGoober

12-20-2010, 11:53 AM

Metalworker, I disagree with your philosophy.

I do not find it hard to get to 4 lands, the problem has always been stabilizing, not surviving the early game. The main advantage of playing Landstill is you get to play powerful 4 drops like Wrath, Humility, Jace, and Elspeth. If you can spend your turns after 4 lands dropping bombs like that, you should win the game.

Then again, I haven't played this deck against Survival.

I don't disagree with my anti-philosophy either. I've always been playing seven 4-cmc spells in Landstill (2 WoG, 1 Humility, 4 Planeswalker) but in recent matches, I found that most of the time I've lost are either due to: mana-screw (via wastelands or missing a landdrop which sadly happens with 24 lands) or opponents curving out on you while you sit on a hand of 4cmc spells that do nothing.

I fully understand the ability to sweep at 4cmc with FoF and WoG. But the more I played, the more I realized that playing conservatively and always making sure the board isn't out of control is as good, if not better than playing with 4cmc cards. WoG will x-1, so will Humility, Planeswalkers. I've only cut WoG because 50% of the time it was a 2-1 or 1-1. I'd rather much run the 4th EE since EE has about a 50-60% chance in most games to catch 2-1s, while having the benefit on stopping earlier threats/vials. But I've opted for Isochron Scepters, still keeping he card-advantage x-1 philosophy in the deck. It has replaced WoG as the x-1 slot, but having the flexibility to imprint either counter/draw/removal depending on the matchup. Its power is boosted by the sideboard (negates, extirpate, chants, path), and funnily, it is always FoW-bait, which is great since you can still play the deck without Scepters.

I maybe wrong about my philosophy, but in my current meta of Fish/Gobs/Zoo/Knight of the Reliquary/Dark Horizons etc, 4cmc does nothing except doing a 2-1 at best, while risking me games since I can't hit 4 mana. My only 4cmc slots currently are 2 Elspeth, 2 Jace, 1 Humility, all of which i feel to fetch up much more value ((Planeswalkers generate so much advantage) and flexibility by not being dead in various different matchups. I'm taking a short break from the deck, but the loss of SotF is a good sign for Landstill to come back in a meta of Zoo/Gobs/Fish/Counterbalance. Just praying Aggro Loam doesn't come back, because it's one tough matchup, although I'm confident my new list has a better shot agains it (Wish, Countertop, Scepter-lock game 1, 4 basics).

Regarding the unbanning of Time Spiral: someone once mentioned using Time Reversal in Landstill. I don't think Landstill could get a boost from Time Spiral since it's inherently a win-more card i.e. the effect is symmetric in terms of card parity, and risking your opponent a fresh-7 means having to answer the 7 threats which translates that you already have a good board position to deal with 7 more opposing cards which translates to a win-moar strategy. I think Time Spiral is contradicting to Landstill's philosophy: in the late-game (6 mana), you want to bury your opponents in card/board/resource advantage, and Time Spiral only seeks to destroy this philosophy by giving opponents a chance to recouperate.

Am I correct on this easy analysis? Or am I missing something since someone mentionde Time Reversal in Landstill once and I never gave it much thought.

Hanni

12-20-2010, 04:17 PM

Just praying Aggro Loam doesn't come back, because it's one tough matchup

Until people realize just how good Counterbalance is in control decks. ;)

mossivo1986

12-20-2010, 04:27 PM

Until people realize just how good Counterbalance is in control decks. ;)

You don't need a soft lock in landstill. You are the soft lock.

Hanni

12-20-2010, 04:34 PM

You don't need a soft lock in landstill. You are the soft lock.

Counterbalance is more than just a soft lock. It's card advantage. It's domination over the stack, and ultimately, over the gamestate. You have the tools to clean the board, and then Counterbalance keeps the board clean after that. No recurring Loam's, no topdecked burn spells off the top ftw, so on, and so on.

Mana Drain

12-20-2010, 05:11 PM

You don't need a soft lock in landstill. You are the soft lock.

Really, this is about all that needs to be said about CB in Landstill. Counterbalance/Top is a great engine, but doesn't fit the nature of Landstill and would require a significant change in card choices, twisting the whole deck into a goyfless CB deck with Factories and a heavy curve on the 4 drop end. Basically, pick one: Standstill + Factory or CB/Top + other cards.

Besides, CB just doesn't do what the deck wants to do: Stabilize, drop a bomb, win. CB doesn't come online until T3 at best (I'm not counting random blind flippin'), doesn't affect the board at all, requires significant adjustment to the manacurve, and doesn't stop REAL threats like NO, turn 1 Vial/Lackey, other PW's, Show and Tell/Sneak Attack. It also leaves us more vulnerable to cards like Grip, Pridemage, Needle, etc.

On a completely unrelated note: SURVIVAL IS BANNED! THIS DECK IS COMPETITIVE AGAIN! HUZAAH!

A merry December 20th to all!

Mark Sun

12-20-2010, 05:26 PM

Besides, CB just doesn't do what the deck wants to do: Stabilize, drop a bomb, win. CB doesn't come online until T3 at best (I'm not counting random blind flippin'), doesn't affect the board at all, requires significant adjustment to the manacurve, and doesn't stop REAL threats like NO, turn 1 Vial/Lackey, other PW's, Show and Tell/Sneak Attack. It also leaves us more vulnerable to cards like Grip, Pridemage, Needle, etc.

On a completely unrelated note: SURVIVAL IS BANNED! THIS DECK IS COMPETITIVE AGAIN! HUZAAH!

A merry December 20th to all!

I agree, Counterbalance seems awful in this deck. Nice distribution of 1, 2, 3, and 4cc drops, making your flips inconsistent as all hell. That and most decks have gotten to the point where they deal with Counterbalance quite well anyways. I have advocated boarding out KGrip targets in most matchups anyways, the card advantage from them having to sit on dead cards in their hand is quite good. Butchering this deck to fit a Counterbalance lock seems silly. I think SDT is fine, I myself do not play it now, but I used to. I feel like we have had this discussion before.

About Survival, while GW and BGw builds suffer, it still won't stop the UG builds from still using Intuition to power out Vengevines. What that does for Landstill I'm not sure, but if Merfolk, for example, is allowed to rear its ugly head in the metagame again, I'm not sure if it's a safe time to play blue based control. Just my thoughts.

Hanni

12-20-2010, 05:36 PM

Really, this is about all that needs to be said about CB in Landstill. Counterbalance/Top is a great engine, but doesn't fit the nature of Landstill and would require a significant change in card choices, twisting the whole deck into a goyfless CB deck with Factories and a heavy curve on the 4 drop end. Basically, pick one: Standstill + Factory or CB/Top + other cards.

I agree that it twists the deck a bit.

I disagree that you would need a heavy curve on the 4 drop end.

Besides, CB just doesn't do what the deck wants to do: Stabilize, drop a bomb, win.

The problem with stabilize, drop bomb, and win: dropping a bomb doesn't always win. Counterbalance does help to stabilize, it just does it differently. The only bad matchup where its doesn't help stabilize effectively is against Merfolk, but that's only against a turn 1 Vial... otherwise, Counterbalance has plenty of targets.

CB doesn't come online until T3 at best (I'm not counting random blind flippin'), doesn't affect the board at all, requires significant adjustment to the manacurve, and doesn't stop REAL threats like NO, turn 1 Vial/Lackey, other PW's, Show and Tell/Sneak Attack. It also leaves us more vulnerable to cards like Grip, Pridemage, Needle, etc.

Counterbalance isn't meant to answer things on turn 1, it's meant to prevent further bleeding in the midgame. Just because you stabilized at low life against Zoo after turn 4 and then dropped an Elspeth doesn't mean you won.

Counterbalance does stop NO by revealing an Elspeth or Jace. In comparison though, how would that be any worse than having a Spell Snare against a NO? I agree that Counterbalance does nothing to stop turn 1 Lackey, that's what StP/PtE are for.

How does Counterbalance make you more vulnerable to Pithing Needle, if you're already running Top and other juicy targets in the first place? If anything, it can protect itself against a Needle should you resolve Counterbalance before they resolve Needle. The same can be said about Pridemage, since Counterbalance can protect itself from Pridemage and Pridemage still has targets like Mishra's Factory, Vedalken Shackles, etc. Against Krosan Grip, sure, you lose a UU enchantment to a 2G sorcery. I fail to see how that argument applies any differently to Counterbalance than to Humility, though.

Besides, I wasn't coming in here exclaiming for everyone to run Counterbalance. I tried that several times in years past, and got the same close minded response from the Landstill community before finally creating a new thread. All I was doing was commenting on what Metalwalker said about having a tough time against Aggro Loam.

Mana Drain

12-20-2010, 08:19 PM

Hanni

12-20-2010, 08:26 PM

But I'd like to see a modern (post Survival) version of CBStill. I'm a huge fan of CB, and would love to be proven wrong on it's viability in Landstill.

Unfortunately, I've been developing that archtype for years, and its evolution is no longer Landstill. The deck is still very reminiscent of Landstill, where it originated from, but it no longer runs manlands or Standstill. I'd post a decklist for reference, but its not really Landstill so I'll save the bandwidth. The link in my sig takes you to it, though.

Rune

12-20-2010, 08:42 PM

Some hybrids of Landstill and Counterthopters have been very successful in the past. I guess you don't need to play the Thopter combo, but you need to play Enlightened Tutors to make your Counterbalance not suck. ETutor is obviously also very good on its own. It's probably a meta dependent choice, but Counterbalance can definitely fix some common problems for Landstill, like Storm, Loam and marginal stuff, such as Burn (only a problem for lists with no Cunning Wish).

http://www.deckcheck.org/?x=8QRflGWV2M4iF31hlGRfiaN4bE75k9

I've played this list a lot in the past and I've found it to be very strong, but it was adjusted for the old ANT/Reanimator metagame, so it needs some fine tuning.

GGoober

12-21-2010, 10:41 AM

All right, I agree CB has merit, but I feel this merit is in the SB as a strong anti-combo/burn/whateverlow-curvedeck option, not as a MD engine. But I feel that the entire premise of playing Landstill is that you *don't* have an engine/combo that the deck relies on/plays for. You just build a "U/Wx goodstuff" deck and make use of some powerful synergies and take advantage of a metagame niche.

In order to play CB to positive result, you would undoubtedly have to alter the mana curve and card choices so that it would give you a consistent 1,2 drop reveal. BUT, as Landstill, we have to play cards on the upper-end of the curve that are extremely powerful and dramatically impact the gamestate, in order to secure a safe board position to win. Unfortunately, there are only a few other cards played by other decks that would be hit by our 4 drops (opposing Elspeths and Jaces, NO, and...Aluren?). In addition, our 3 drop curve (extremely important postboard), is low for a reason:
Turn 3 is the "start to stabilize" turn. It's when we start pulling the game around. Playables include Firespout, Vindicate, Crucible, and Shackles. Not much to choose from, and you would realistically only be able to play at most 4, which is kinda weak for a CB curve. Finally, Landstill WILL ALWAYS have to run AT THE LEAST, 23 lands. Most prefer 24. That's 23-24 cards in your deck that will only counter a Lotus Petal or a Lion Eye Diamond, and this is in addition to commonly accepted 2-3 EE MD. So, over one-third of your deck will stop absolutely nothing when flipped. Most CB variants compensate for lands with either Ponder, Hierarch, or a lower land count resulting in a lower over-all curve of the deck.

In conclusion, I don't feel that MD Counterbalance is going to be a solution to Landstills problems. I do feel that it is a great SB card, and have used it to positive results (ironically, I do believe I got it from an old post of yours Hanni, from way back) in the Storm matchup. But the problems I've encountered with Landstill and still don't have an answer to are 1) Lack of a consistent draw engine to supplement Standstill (possibly Predict) and 2) Decks who's main plan is "disrupt the mana, drop a big dumb dude" like New Horizons, The Rock, and sometimes Tempo Thresh.

But I'd like to see a modern (post Survival) version of CBStill. I'm a huge fan of CB, and would love to be proven wrong on it's viability in Landstill.

@ Morbid: I do like the idea of siding out Arts and Enchants against green to gain virtual CA. But unfortunately, my love affair with Top is just to strong for me to remove it under any circumstance.

EDIT: I don't know about everyone else, but I'm completely rebuilding my UWx Landstill. Without Survival, all we lost was a bad matchup, and I'm going to try and start anew without the consideration for the green menace.

My evolved list (pre Vengevival but is even better post-Vengevival since that deck was quite a beast to play against i.e. no play mistakes)

Lands: 23
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins
3 Island
2 Plains

3 Engineered Explosives

4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares

3 Counterbalance
4 Counterspell
2 Isochron Scepter
3 Standstill

2 Cunning Wish
1 Crucible of Worlds

1 Humility
2 Jace
2 Elspeth

4 Force of Will

SB:
1 Path to Exile
1 ETutor
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Orim's Chant
3 Negates
3 Extirpate
3 Engineered Plague
2 Peacekeeper

Splits for cmc:
1: 11 (plenty)
2: 12 (plenty)
3: 3 (little, post SB, EPlagues/Peacekeepers add to those matchups, combo/burn/zoo you only need 1-2cmc)
4: 5
5: 4

Don't get me started on the 3 Counterbalance + 3 Top v.s. 4 Counterbalance + 4 Top. The reason for 3/3 split is the approach of the deck i.e. I am not a countertop based deck and if I get the lock early that's a good thing, but I primarily play Counterbalance to seal my games up as Hanni pointed out the true purpose of Counterbalance. I rely on all my other tools to play a normal landstill deck, but Counterbalance gives me an additional advantage (even if blindflipping, I have good cmc ratios).

If you dislike the Scepters (probably because you don't intend to test them), you can opt for Path/Snares/WoG/FoF in those slots. You can drop down to 10 2-cmc spells and be fine.

This is the list that I have most success in because it vastly improves my weaker matchups: combo, burn/Zoo's burn, Enchantress and have a shot against aggro loam (still the worst matchup), and interestingly, Counterbalance is quite solid against merfolk once you've dealt with Vials and their LoA/Coralhelm.

2 weeks ago against combo, I had the following postboard:
4 Counterspell
3 Counterbalance/3 Top
4 Force
3 Negate
3 Extirpate
2 Isochron Scepter
1 Orim's Chant

Assembling either Scepter-Counterspell/Negate or Countertop locked combo out for good if they don't go off turn 1 (they can't really do that, and the statistical chances of them going turn 1 unprotected is lower than us drawing FoW in opening hand).

With the above list, I'm confident with my weak Enchantress matchup (a friend plays it commonly here and it's one of those depressing and tough-as-balls matchup like aggro-loam). Against Enchantress, I'll have quite a lot of answers:
4 Counterspell
3 Counterbalance/3 Top
4 Force
3 Negate
3 Extirpate
2 Isochron Scepter
1 Orim's Chant
1 ETutor
2 Wish
3 EE

But anyway, you asked for a list, this is my spin. I don't think Countertop is all that bad in Landstill. It's bad if you're thinking and implementing it wrong in the deck i.e. you should not see Countertop Landstill as a countertop deck. It's still fundamentally played as a Landstill deck but now you'll have Countertop wrapping up games, in the same manner/philosophy that Planeswalker/Scepter wrap up games by making the game inevitable. The reason why I like my new list/countertop list is because it not only fulfils that philosophy/purpose of winning the end-game, but it protects me in the early game too.

Mana Drain, like I said, if you're bent on dropping countertop on turn 2 without thinking about your opponent's strategy, then you're approaching countertop in the wrong light in the Landstill shell. I drop countertop early against certain decks but there are other decks that I'm mainly focused on board position and only drop Countertop when I know I'm ready i.e. I don't want to tap out for Countertop and end up losing because he played a threat I could no deal with e.g. SnT when I have counterspell available. Once again, this is not a countertop deck, if you're thinking of it as one then you're piloting it wrong. I can go on forever as to why I recently built this list, but I've mentioned some main points in the earlier paragraphs.

And I think the list is fine and decent because I've heard quite a lot of complaints on how annoying it is, and when you've built an annoying control deck, you're most likely doing a good job since you're denying your opponents any interactions and making the gamestate such that they cannot win :)

Mana Drain

12-21-2010, 12:25 PM

Metalwalker, I actually really like that list, although I myself would make a few changes for personal play reasons (I'm not a fan of Wish, but I understand that many people enjoy having an "answer anything" card). A heavy 2 drop curve is extremely beneficial for CB, and I really like the combination of Scepter, Standstill, and CB for their raw power and the fact they they cost 2. I'll try and build something similar (although I will always play red in every UWx variant I play), and give it a play through. Very interesting indeed.

Here's my sample list that I'll be playing on Sunday in a now completely unknown metagame, but I'll expect a lot of Tier 1 and metagame for it.

"Keep It Simple"

4 Strand
4 Tarn
4 Tundra
3 Volcanic
1 Trop
2 Island
1 Plains
4 Factory
1 Ruins (always on the verge of cutting it, but then I randomly win a match off the back of recurring EE)

4 BS
4 Force
4 Standstill
3 Jace
2 Elspeth
4 Swords
3 Firespout
3 EE
3 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
3 Tops

SB
2 Pyroblast
1 REB
3 Grip
2 Path
3 Relic
4 Counterbalance

This is about as simple as Landstill gets. Extremely consistent, extremely narrow-minded, extremely efficient. Just about my card for card list that I played over the summer before Survival fever took a foothold and strangled my meta. Although the SB is a complete test. I have no idea whether it will be jank, or gold. I'm really excited about the CB in the board, as it was successful in stopping combo and jank burn many months ago. I'll also try siding it in randomly against non-aggro as a surprise angle of attack, like in the mirror. I'm completely sold on Relic as my GY hate of choice because of it's versatility. It's indeed slower than Crypt, but it buys you enormous time against Tempo decks running Goofy, KotR, Mongoose, and Tombstalker for very little mana and no card loss. Grips are for the predictable rise in CB variants, although against everything else Nature's Claim is just leagues better than Grip. I get kinda worried about things like Choke from RG Goblins and The Rock, but I'm just going to stick with Grip as I'd rather lose to Choke than a deck which I should be beating anyways (CB).

Like I said, this is about as bare-bones and simple as it gets. No real tricks or gimmicks, just blue cards, removal, and land.

GGoober

12-21-2010, 02:00 PM

Your list is solid too :)

Only thing I might cut is -1 Top +1 Crucible. 3 Top is still solid, but 2 Top is good enough IMO. I've tried 3 Tops during the era where Eva and Sinkholes were everywhere and it was solid. A lot of control player forget how powerful Top is with conjunction with Standstill, pre/during/post-Standstill it's just insane. How's 4 color in your list? I feel that green is irrelevant 70% of the time when I'm playing 4-color or UWg builds. If it's a grip effect you're looking for, I think that ETutor->EE feels the slot better since you still have options to fetch something other than EE when you draw the boarded Tutor. I personally enjoy Dismantling Blow. It's usually just a 2W disenchant, but when you kick it, 40% of the time, it's quite a beating. Return to dust is another option that usually bypasses Countertop. Since the matchups you're boarding Grips are usually against Blood Moon/3SPhere/Chalice (no more survival! D:), i feel that the split-second of grip doesn't offer much, instead +2 cards from DBlow or 2 Revoke Existence in 1 cardd (Return to Dust) with the benefit of easily castable off WW is more valuable.

EDIT: NVM just saw your CB in the sideboard.

For my list, I think a shift to UWr is a viable choice atm. The only reason I still stick with UWb is due to the flexibility of Extirpate in GY-based deck or against control/combo. Crypt/Relic are more deadweight in an overall metagame so I still prefer Extirpates. Aside from Extirpate, Perish/Eplague are always good options although I think Firespout is in general superior than EPlague against tribal, but there are subtleties that I don't mention why I feel that EPlague is strong in my list. Since I'm running 2 Scepters, the chances of me having Scepter + StP is in general quite high in games, against Folks, if this sticks, they will never get to grow their creatures. It's harder to pull off than a straightforward Firespout, but all in all, UWb seems to offer a more balanced matchup in the aggro matchups.

Lastly, Wish always comes in and out for me. Currently I stick with it since aside from Crucible, there's not much 3cmc slots other than Vindicate (which I believe Wish > Vindicate in this slot) that feels this slot well. Shackles could be an option since I run 3 basic Islands, but I need to test it out. Wishes work great with Scepters in my list. I moved my Chants to the SB, and I think I like that decision than having 2 Chants MD (2 Chants MD is quite strong but sometimes creates awkward situations that it becomes a WW Fog). Wish has saved my ass in tight situations, grabbing an Extirpate against Countertop/Combo/Loam, and grabbing a needed Path which sometimes gets imprinted on a Scepter. There are a few games where I wished->Chant and just won game 1s. Chant deserves more credit than it looks. It's essentially a strong card against combo/control, and if you combine it with Scepter, it beats the crap out of aggro until they've drawn a out.

You can refer to John Knapp's (Chii) UWr list to get an idea on a UWr Scepterchant list. It's solid, and it was the starting point of my switch to playing with Scepters. And I only ever have issues with Scepter being a dead card 1/10 games. With 14 1-2cmc spells, I always have targets, not to mention all the Bstorming, Topping and Jstorming and Cunning Wish setting it up. It's always cool to see my opponents pale out when I play Scepter, and they FoW it and I 2-1 them. And when it sticks, I win, if it gets removed, then I get 1-2'd. Sad, but Landstill often has to 1-2 quite often e.g. FoW or playing WoG against 1 Tarmogoyf (I see this not as a 1-1 since 4cmc v.s. 2 cmc is a tempo loss for you).

TBH, the only time that would make me drop Scepters is if Pridemage gets overly popular in every deck again, or if Counterspell is too slow for the format, then I'll run out of imprinting cards. But as of now, Counterspell is fine in a format without MTutor and Survival i.e. speed has slowed down once again, and if folks and CBTop decks creep back in again, the format will slow a little more to make Landstill a viable competitor. It always has been, it was just not the easy deck to pilot and win games with. I keep making play mistakes, but I think all those mistakes have shaped how I view my lists and my metagame, and how I should prepare against them.

mossivo1986

12-21-2010, 03:52 PM

My evolved list

1. Your playing very little removal in this deck. Landstill is an archtype thats supposed to smash aggro. I really don't think this list presented could beat many of the aggro decks. Especially tribal swarm aggro decks. Even with plague in the board it's not enough. Your missing like 3-5 removal. It also appears that anything playing krosan grip rocks your socks. This is not a good starting point.

2. Your playing 3 EE in a deck with not only counterbalance, and sceptor as well. The cards have 0 synergy together; and thats something you;ll figure out by yourself with actual testing.

Question. Why are you playing maindeck counterbalance if your going to still board in sub par cards like negate? They answer the same thing..... Your improving a matchup youve already supposedly improved.

Don't get me started on the 3 Counterbalance + 3 Top v.s. 4 Counterbalance + 4 Top. The reason for 3/3 split is the approach of the deck i.e. I am not a countertop based deck and if I get the lock early that's a good thing, but I primarily play Counterbalance to seal my games up as Hanni pointed out the true purpose of Counterbalance.

Counterbalance can not work in a landstill shell because there is no way to apply pressure with the 2 pieces together. If you get a plainswalker online thats great; but consider that at that point if you've been able to apply that kind of pressure you could win with anything.

oh sick tech guys! have you seen Time Elemental! Its INSANE! It turns off celestial collonade (landstill mirror) and basicly everything from (Uw Tempo.) They just can't keep up! Get ready to see standstill on the banned list because of time elementa!

GGoober

12-21-2010, 05:45 PM

1. Your playing very little removal in this deck. Landstill is an archtype thats supposed to smash aggro. I really don't think this list presented could beat many of the aggro decks. Especially tribal swarm aggro decks. Even with plague in the board it's not enough. Your missing like 3-5 removal. It also appears that anything playing krosan grip rocks your socks. This is not a good starting point.

Removal-wise I have not much issues. The decks that I end up losing to are in fact the creature-light decks that run Daze/FoW while pressuring with Goyfs. In this situation, WoG would not have done much. I once in awhile go to 6StP MD, but that is a metagame call when I expect my metagame to run more threats. Gobs/Folks are popular in my meta, and I have close to zero issues with Gobs unless they get the Lackey + wasteland + Port + Vial, then there's nothing we can do about that. Merfolks beats me once in awhile but I find resolving WoG difficult in this matchup. I would opt for Firespout instead. Regardless, the last 2 Merfolks matchup that I played ended up with Peacekeeper beating the crap out of them while Countertop protects him and I Jace him out.

I'm satsified with my removal of:
4 StP
3 EE
1 Humility
2 Scepter (took the place of WoG)
2 Wish (my mid-game solution to either grab an emergency path or ETutor into EE/Scepter)

Since my list is focused on the early game, I don't run into the issue of having a difficult board to deal with with my 'lack' of removal. I trade my counters/removals as required and depending on my hand e.g. if I have removal in my hand, I'll counter, or let it slip through if my factories can deal with it while I take a couple of hits. With Scepter online (and most of the time it resolves unmolested game 1), I'll have close to +1 removal a turn, which translates into a +2 card advantage (-1 threat from his board, +1 for me no spending a card to deal with the threat).

2. Your playing 3 EE in a deck with not only counterbalance, and sceptor as well. The cards have 0 synergy together; and thats something you;ll figure out by yourself with actual testing.

I have been playing 3 EE with or without Counterbalance, with or without Scepter, with or without Crucible. I don't give a crap. If the situation demands me to EE, I will EE, and when I do, the position is favorable for me. I want to stress again, when I play the deck, I do not look at my decklist, I look at my deck, my hand, my future turns. Dropping Counterbalance turn 2 is usually not what I do, neither do I drop turn 2 Standstills. The meta has changed where these plays are becoming less ideal. I drop Standstills/Counterbalance only when the situation demands it or the decks that I'm playing against allows me to do so favorably in my position.

I've been playing with Scepters for over 5 months. I play 3 EE, do I blow my scepter up? Yes, sometimes I do, but when I do do it, I do it because I will win faster, or stabilize into a better position. Have you played the deck where you sacrificed your Elspeth to eventually win because they overextended? Dropping both Countertop and Scepter does this. I either:
1) Have control of the game (65% of the time when Scepter/countertop hits) so this is a good thing
2) They manage to play past the lock and I can't deal with the board (Scepter + StP deals with this but not Countertop) so I'll have to EE my board away. But the fact that they have gone through so many x-1s trying to get past the Scepter/Countertop lock means that by then, EE'ing away my Scepter/counterbalance is already worth it.

I see my cards by what they do. If my one card can buy me turns, or 2-4 cards from an opponent, I'm more than happy. The deck is all about advantage, and surviving into advantage. This is the essence of the deck, and it's why we play with a crappy card called Standstill, because it's a draw 3 in 1 card for 1U, for the same reason, if my countertop forces them to get a number of spells countered and eventually wasting a pridemage to deal with it, I'm more than happy that my 1 card has dealt with 3 cards.

Now, you might use my same logic on why I don't play more removal/sweepers like WoG, and this is where I mention again as I did earlier. That both WoG and countertop/Scepter fill the same philosophy. They are x-1 spells, and a control deck like Landstill is in need of these spells since you are always in the pressured position of being x-1'd. You need every advantage you can get. WoG is great when you sweep, but if it becomes a 2-1 or 1-1, it is worse than a 1-1 spell since being 4cmc is very bad when playing against most cards in Legacy. In fact, I would opt to play FoF more than WoG if I wanted to find such a 4cmc x-1 card.

Now, Scepter, countertop, Planeswalker, WoG, humility, FoF all have this philosophy: card-advantage, resource-advantage. You want to bury your opponents with these cards. Out of these, Planeswalkers and FoF are the best examples of this. FoF is the burst advantage in the list, while cards like Scepter and Countertop are build-up forms of advantage. They both have their advantages and disadvantages. Scepter/Countertop will come into play earlier if you assemble it, so it starts there, or it may get disrupted unlike FoF which cannot be disrupted outside of a counter. However, FoF/WoG are 4cmc, which in many games ARE relevant. It's a trade-off between whether you run lower cmc answers to higher ones, whether you prefer the instant advantage or incremental. Both have their cons/pros, but to say that one falls short in being a relevant piece to Landstill is failing to recognize the point that the replaced slots of FoF/WoG with Countertop/Scepter still serves the same fundamental purpose. It takes a different playstyle, mindset to implement the strategy, to which I have begun to play with a different playstyle. I still have all the traditional Landstill philosophies in me, and they are important lessons and skills and tools to use in the right meta.

I'm just not too willing to dismiss the reasons I'm arguing above.

Question. Why are you playing maindeck counterbalance if your going to still board in sub par cards like negate? They answer the same thing..... Your improving a matchup youve already supposedly improved.
Because just Counterbalance + FoW is not necessarily enough against combo/enchantress. We don't pack Daze nor pressure. I used to play Canonist and probably will continue to do so post-VV meta. But since I'm playing 2 Scepter, another 3 Negates to combo with Scepter while being hard counters against these matchups will more than likely give me an edge.

Counterbalance can not work in a landstill shell because there is no way to apply pressure with the 2 pieces together. If you get a plainswalker online thats great; but consider that at that point if you've been able to apply that kind of pressure you could win with anything.

And aside the fact that I'm running 4 Planeswalker + 4 factories, how have I cut my win-conditions outside of 2 Decree (which goes in and out of every lists). you only apply pressure when you have control of the game, irregardless if you played Countertop or not. The fundamental flaw and attributes to my loses are due to me being greedy and wanting to apply pressure when the time is wrong. We play Landstill, we are THE control deck in Legacy. To assume another role, a beatdown role is wrong. you have to always be in control, even whenapplying pressure.

oh sick tech guys! have you seen Time Elemental! Its INSANE! It turns off celestial collonade (landstill mirror) and basicly everything from (Uw Tempo.) They just can't keep up! Get ready to see standstill on the banned list because of time elementa!
I like my Sun Titan + Jace 1 under my Standstills tyvm

Rico Suave

12-21-2010, 06:18 PM

Once you start running Counterbalance, what is stopping you from just taking the next step and playing Dreadstill?

Hanni

12-21-2010, 06:32 PM

Once you start running Dreadstill, what is stopping you from just taking the next step and playing Merfolk?

Rico Suave

12-21-2010, 07:22 PM

Because Merfolk is worse!

GGoober

12-21-2010, 08:25 PM

Once you start running Counterbalance, what is stopping you from just taking the next step and playing Dreadstill?

Because Landstill beats Dreadstill :P EE/StP FtW.

But in all seriousness, I was analyzing the Dreadstill list and thinking about 3/3 Countertop split, and I was trying to see if there were any flaws on using Countertop in Landstill the way Dreadstill uses countertop i.e. I don't want to end up playing a wrong engine in the wrong deck. Apparently many people think it's wrong, perhaps it is, perhaps it's not but so far it's working fine. Need more testing to determine if I'm better with/without it.

mossivo1986

12-21-2010, 10:35 PM

Metalwalker

I don't buy that your matchups against aggro decks are that good based on 4 stp, some tutorable utility, and some utility artifact that you have to have a stp on anyways. It just doesn't make sense. You cant count things that cost you excess mana just to get them as straight up removal.

If you really think your matchups are that good then test with me on mws. im (S)Mossivo on mws, and you can reach me at mossivo1986 on aim most of the time. I'll gladly whip you around for a while.

Also if we're talking about dreadstill lets atleast admit that atleast dreadstill has a clock + counterbalance, and a better positioning in general metagames; especially national ones. Who cares if landstill beats dreadstill; the real question shouldnt be yeah well it looses to this; but how freuent do you expect to play against this. IE nobody plays landstill. Well except us? lol And to be honest I only test it because it was my first real legacy deck forever ago and I know the ins and outs.

Rico Suave

12-22-2010, 12:38 AM

Because Landstill beats Dreadstill :P EE/StP FtW.

But in all seriousness, I was analyzing the Dreadstill list and thinking about 3/3 Countertop split, and I was trying to see if there were any flaws on using Countertop in Landstill the way Dreadstill uses countertop i.e. I don't want to end up playing a wrong engine in the wrong deck. Apparently many people think it's wrong, perhaps it is, perhaps it's not but so far it's working fine. Need more testing to determine if I'm better with/without it.

You bring up the idea of not wanting to play the wrong engine in the wrong deck. Let me use this idea to explain where I'm coming from a bit more clearly, because I didn't exactly go into detail before.

There is a fundamental problem. All of the talk here is assuming that Landstill is the right deck, and then deciding whether CB/Top is the right or wrong engine.

I'm suggesting that CB/Top is the right engine, and from there it's a matter of Landstill being the right or wrong deck.

I know it's not a popular thing when someone walks into the Landstill thread and says "hey guys your deck sucks." By all means, play whatever deck you want and think whatever you want about it. I'm simply presenting an option that if you really want to play CB/Top, and you want to play it so badly that you stuff it into Landstill even if it doesn't really fit, then perhaps you are looking at the wrong deck.

So when these people say that CB/Top doesn't belong in Landstill, they might be right. But you know what? It's sort of like saying Survival doesn't fit in a Zoo deck - it just means the Zoo deck isn't worth playing.

Mana Drain

12-22-2010, 02:14 AM

IE nobody plays landstill. Well except us? lol And to be honest I only test it because it was my first real legacy deck forever ago and I know the ins and outs.

I think that people not putting the time into learning how to play true heavy control (Landstill) is a major factor in LS not seeing much play, in addition to incorrect metagame choices in cards. Landstill is never the best deck, ever. But it's never a terrible deck either, as we play 1) blue cards, which are always good and 2) a strong creature control plan, and seeing as how 90% of Legacy decks that plan on winning use creatures, this is also good. The printing of Jace has also given the deck a significant boost, but he's dangerous/inconvenient to as a draw engine sometimes, something that the deck could use an upgrade on.

And since we're being honest, I can say that I mainly play blue control because I just can't do a damn thing with aggro decks, I love countering spells, and the once a tournament control mirrors you get that just make Magic worth playing, not because it's the best strategy.

mossivo1986

12-22-2010, 06:34 AM

I think that people not putting the time into learning how to play true heavy control (Landstill) is a major factor in LS not seeing much play, in addition to incorrect metagame choices in cards.

While the first part I can somewhat agree on. The second part I don't understand at all.

Landstill is never the best deck, ever. But it's never a terrible deck either, as we play 1) blue cards, which are always good and 2) a strong creature control plan, and seeing as how 90% of Legacy decks that plan on winning use creatures, this is also good. The printing of Jace has also given the deck a significant boost, but he's dangerous/inconvenient to as a draw engine sometimes, something that the deck could use an upgrade on.

The Jace argument is debatable. Jace does not shore any matchup in legacy currently. Its no better then running a redundant draw spell that has the word instant next to it. Which is why FOF is the stronger choice. Sure you can use the well what happens if jace sticks argument, but thats the same argument one could say about what if fof resolves and your opponent makes a mistake in splitting, or what happens if you kantrip back to back fofs, etc.

The bottom line is Jace doesn't do anything that the deck couldn't do before, except give us a hidden win condition/ weak fof. That to me in redundant builds isnt worth playing or sacrificing to play.

And since we're being honest, I can say that I mainly play blue control because I just can't do a damn thing with aggro decks, I love countering spells, and the once a tournament control mirrors you get that just make Magic worth playing, not because it's the best strategy.

I like countering spells too. I also like playing KOTR. so sick.

GGoober

12-22-2010, 10:58 AM

You bring up the idea of not wanting to play the wrong engine in the wrong deck. Let me use this idea to explain where I'm coming from a bit more clearly, because I didn't exactly go into detail before.

There is a fundamental problem. All of the talk here is assuming that Landstill is the right deck, and then deciding whether CB/Top is the right or wrong engine.

I'm suggesting that CB/Top is the right engine, and from there it's a matter of Landstill being the right or wrong deck.

I know it's not a popular thing when someone walks into the Landstill thread and says "hey guys your deck sucks." By all means, play whatever deck you want and think whatever you want about it. I'm simply presenting an option that if you really want to play CB/Top, and you want to play it so badly that you stuff it into Landstill even if it doesn't really fit, then perhaps you are looking at the wrong deck.

So when these people say that CB/Top doesn't belong in Landstill, they might be right. But you know what? It's sort of like saying Survival doesn't fit in a Zoo deck - it just means the Zoo deck isn't worth playing.

Point taken definitely. Which is why I'm testing it. I worked my list I guess primarily from the Countertop/Dreadstill lists, and filled in the Goyf/Noughts with more control elements. Could be bad, but right now, I feel that a lot of people don't see the interaction/power of Standstill + Top, Standstill + Counterbalance with the latter being more rare since only Dreadstill really get to work with it on a regular basis. Standstill + Counterbalance activations can be stacked to give you an even greater chance at countering spells (although with both out in play, I'd assume you're winning anyway).

My older experiments with Countertop in Landstill were failures. I was running 4 Planeswalkers, 4/4 Countertop, 2 WoG, 1 Humility. As you figured, I had trouble with the early game when Countertop didn't come up. After 2 years (I believe?) I revisted the list after reading pages of this thread (I've read this entire thread quite a few times since it's the deck that I truly enjoy playing) and the recent pages of Dreadstill since the innovation of UWb Bob/Peacenought. There were a lot of things that I picked up. I fully acknowledge Dreadstill has much stronger matchups than Merfolks/Combo and various other deck with its ability to dump Dreadnoughts out of nowhere to win, but at the same time, the appeal of having the deck that faces the least hate and creating multiple dead cards for the opponents e.g. Landstill still trumps my personal reasons to play the deck. So when I recalled my old lists, looked at my newer lists, I tried to make up for the missing holes. Scepters so far has always filled that hole for me.

But I will be doing quite a lot more heavy testing and take your points that perhaps the engine is not meant to be in this deck/shell. The last 2 tourneys, I was extremely pleased with how the deck did, but perhaps it was due to metagaming success rather than the success of the decklist/engine/deck itself. More testing will tell. Currently my meta over weeks consists of: 1-2 Gobs/2-4 Merfolks/1 Scapeshift Lands/2-3 combo/1-2 UGx Threshish decks/1-3 Zoo decks/1 Emrakul deck/1-2 Enchantress/1 Stax/1-2 Aggro Loam/1 black-based aggro/disruption/1-2 Rock decks.

Out of all these decks, the new list has a good shot against everything except for Loam and Enchantress. Zoo is still 50/50 but is attributed to my light removal (4 StP, 3 EE, 2 Scepters). Although Dreadstill can steal wins against Zoo with Nought, I believe Dreadnought is usually the tough thing to resolve against Zoo (Path/Pridemage/Grips), so in that respect, if Dreadstill can beat Zoo without Dreadnought i.e. with just Countertop and StP/EE, I don't see why Landstill can't do so (this is in response to Moss's point that I run too little removal, I just feel that on top of my removal suite, running +2 more WoG is usually overkill in most metagames). However, if metagames were very aggro heavy, then opting for +2 sweepers would definitely be the right decision. Right now I don't think the field will be as what it used to be. I feel the meta is shifting towards CBTop, Merfolks, combo, Gobs again, of which we only need to trul worry about Merfolks and combo (sadly our weaker matchups), which is what I'm improving my list against.

Peacekeeper is nuts. Is she Teferi's mom? Because Teferi was a badass.

I came up with a function: zoo beats Landstill is a function of the number of Wild Nacatl drawn and the number of burn drawn
Zoo_beats_Landstill(n(Wild Nacatl),n(Burn))

This function can usually be generalized to Zoo_beats_Legacy lol.

Iron Buddha

12-22-2010, 11:14 AM

In my opinion Mossivo is right about FoF > Jace TMS. You have to activate Jace TMS twice in order to equal the effect of FoF and three times to surpass it. But FoF is already a hugely powerful effect, so no need for a bigger effect. Moreover, FoF is easier to resolve, as it is an instant and Jace is sorcery speed + Jace needs to survive a potential creature rush, or else it is just a really bad BS.

GGoober

12-22-2010, 11:21 AM

Yupp, having played both cards, FoF > Jace

BUT, Jace is relevant because it adds another +2 win-condition/win-density in the deck, while being able to act as a buffer to your life total where FoF could not do so. In terms of digging/drawing, FoF is more relevant than Jace in Landstill, and argubly FoF wins more games when resolved than Jace does. This I can testify, EOTFOFYL has always won me games 80-90% of the time. However, Jace becomes very relevant when you need to divert attention away from your life total, and incrementally setup to stabilize (e.g. 2 weeks ago, I resolved Jace in 2 games against Zoo. My sole intention was to buy myself some lifepoints. Jace got hit by Lightning Bolt + Helix (Helix countered) and a grim lavamancer activation. That saved me over 8 pts of damage. The funny thing was, the burn could have been aimed at my face, but if I brainstormed/fatesealed I would probably have won the game since if I untapped I had enough answers for his creatures and burn. There just wasn't enough mana to save Jace, who argubly saved me 8 frigging points of damage. Game 2 was similar, I think he saved me 9 points of damage.). FoF is much stronger in lists with sweepers and cards that answer multiple threats at once. If you don't run sweepers, FoF is very weak since your EOTFOF doesn't do much. Jace is stronger in incremental builds.

So I take back my statement "I would run FoF over WoG" in the earlier posts. You would have to run both, if you played FoF. I think the main reason why FoF isn't played is because most people tend to prefer the versatility of Jace as a buffer/win-con/card-draw over the raw power of FoF, and with the additional reason on not wanting to run WoG these days, FoF's power is diminished. I don't think it's fair to argue that Jace.Landstill > FoF + WoG.Landstill. I personally think the latter is more powerful, powerful bombs/cards, but sometimes, you just can't hit 4cmc in a 3-color build with the popularity of Knights/Merfolks/Wastelands these days. And once you shift to less 4cmc spells, you have to drop either FoF/WoG or a combination, and find that the lists don't perform as strong because their power/synergies are dependent on each other. This is where Jace fills in as a weaker hybrid slot of removal+defense+card draw.

Rico Suave

12-22-2010, 04:17 PM

the appeal of having the deck that faces the least hate and creating multiple dead cards for the opponents e.g. Landstill still trumps my personal reasons to play the deck.

People tend to get caught up in the idea that Landstill gains virtual card advantage by running no creatures, so the opponent is stuck with dead creature removal. What usually gets lost in this process is the fact that people board out all their dead creature removal against Landstill, so this advantage is gone after boarding, and furthermore there is no way to punish someone for running a light amount of creature removal.

Although Dreadstill can steal wins against Zoo with Nought, I believe Dreadnought is usually the tough thing to resolve against Zoo (Path/Pridemage/Grips), so in that respect, if Dreadstill can beat Zoo without Dreadnought i.e. with just Countertop and StP/EE, I don't see why Landstill can't do so

I find that against Zoo, more games are won by Stifle on a fetchland than Stifle on a Dreadnought. In fact I tend to board out X number of Dreadnoughts against Zoo while keeping all the Stifles. But the mana denial plan is only an afterthought for most Landstill decks.

Hanni

12-22-2010, 04:22 PM

People tend to get caught up in the idea that Landstill gains virtual card advantage by running no creatures, so the opponent is stuck with dead creature removal. What usually gets lost in this process is the fact that people board out all their dead creature removal against Landstill, so this advantage is gone after boarding, and furthermore there is no way to punish someone for running a light amount of creature removal.

People with that idea apparently don't understand that Mishra's Factory in fact IS a creature upon activation, and therefore the opponent's Swords to Plowshares and Lightning Bolts ARE relevant creature removal. Just sayin.

kiblast

12-22-2010, 04:29 PM

People with that idea apparently don't understand that Mishra's Factory in fact IS a creature upon activation, and therefore the opponent's Swords to Plowshares and Lightning Bolts ARE relevant creature removal. Just sayin.

...and it is mana denial, too. Bolt on a Factory is a very bad thing. Stp is tragic, because you can't even recover it with Crucible...

GGoober

12-22-2010, 04:39 PM

Yupp, which is why my Factories no longer swing until I have control of the game or reached a stable manabase. If they board out removal, it's one less counter I have to waste on my beloved Factories.

@Rico: which to my point, boarding out Dreadnoughts against Zoo does imply that the Zoo matchup sees some deadweight with Dreadnoughts, emphasizing my point why Landstill should be more favorable against Zoo since you have less deadweight in game 1. Stifle does slow down or if lucky, beat Zoo, but that's assuming the Zoo player is crippled from Stifle/Waste entirely, which isn't the case most of the time. I won't deny that just 1 stifle is enough to slow it down such that Dreadstill/Landstill can be in a good position, but note that drawing Stifles past turns 2 is again deadweight. What I attribute to beating Zoo isn't solely the use of Stifles. It helps, but since Dreadstill has answers (Counters, countertop), the stifle is in fact creating time to establish the lock/advantage to beat Zoo. Outside of a turn 1-2 Stifle, Stifles don't work well against Zoo except on a Pridemage aiming at your Countertop (but you should be winning if you have Countertop out against them right? :P)

GoldenCid

12-22-2010, 05:07 PM

Did anybody metion that jace can win games by himself???

Hanni

12-22-2010, 05:10 PM

Jace TMS is retardedly good, and those who think otherwise are only fooling themselves, Cid. No point in trying to convince people that don't want to be convinced.

kiblast

12-22-2010, 05:16 PM

Given the fact that FoF > Jace, (mind, I'm not judging whether this is true or not, as it is just a valid point of view from wich i'd like to start the reasonement) I'd like to know what 4cc bombs are you playing in a build that includes Fof. I'm sure that if you want to play Fof, you have to play 2x as 3x seems overkill and 1x is too situational. Against blind metagames I think i would go:

2x Fof
2x Jace, TMS
1x Humility / Elspeth
1x Wrath
1x Elspeth/ 3rd Jace

In a very aggro meta, like the one in wich i currently play, i'd go:

2x Fof
2x Jace, TMS
2x Wrath
1x Humility.

I love the fact that, in a random aggro meta, EOTFOF functions almost as an istant tutor for a WoG or Humility, saving your ass. As said by Metalwalker, Fof is not played anymore because people recently stopped packing sweepers like WoG.
Am I right if I say that I play in an heavy aggro meta ---> I need sweepers ---> I have to pack Fof ?

Fof+ Wog+ Decree Landstill is not necessarily inferior to modern 3 Jace. Landstill, but I figure an hybrid between the two builds should be better in any meta. Correct me if I'm wrong.

GoldenCid

12-22-2010, 05:25 PM

Running FOF and Jce togehter sound good, indeed. I was thinking about that for a long time, so i cut 2 vindicate and the decree to incluye 2 FOF:

4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Brainstorm
1 Humility
2 Wrath of God
4 Flooded Strand
2 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
2 Island
3 Plains
3 Polluted Delta
2 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Scrubland
2 Fact or Fiction
SB: 3 Chill
SB: 3 Extirpate
SB: 3 Perish
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 Pithing Needle

I think that with this configuration a resolved FoF is game...

Rico Suave

12-22-2010, 05:42 PM

@Rico: which to my point, boarding out Dreadnoughts against Zoo does imply that the Zoo matchup sees some deadweight with Dreadnoughts, emphasizing my point why Landstill should be more favorable against Zoo since you have less deadweight in game 1. Stifle does slow down or if lucky, beat Zoo, but that's assuming the Zoo player is crippled from Stifle/Waste entirely, which isn't the case most of the time. I won't deny that just 1 stifle is enough to slow it down such that Dreadstill/Landstill can be in a good position, but note that drawing Stifles past turns 2 is again deadweight. What I attribute to beating Zoo isn't solely the use of Stifles. It helps, but since Dreadstill has answers (Counters, countertop), the stifle is in fact creating time to establish the lock/advantage to beat Zoo. Outside of a turn 1-2 Stifle, Stifles don't work well against Zoo except on a Pridemage aiming at your Countertop (but you should be winning if you have Countertop out against them right? :P)

I am not going to go into too much detail, or why I feel you have a few misconceptions about this particular match, because the biggest problem here is that most Landstill players simply cannot give up the concept of a traditional Landstill deck. They will play it regardless of whether it is right or wrong to play it, and then make up excuses to justify this. And until people acknowledge this, there is little point arguing specifics.

Hanni

12-22-2010, 05:58 PM

I am not going to go into too much detail, or why I feel you have a few misconceptions about this particular match, because the biggest problem here is that most Landstill players simply cannot give up the concept of a traditional Landstill deck. They will play it regardless of whether it is right or wrong to play it, and then make up excuses to justify this. And until people acknowledge this, there is little point arguing specifics.

QFT. Main reason why discussing the evolution of control in the Landstill thread is like beating a dead horse. Unfortunately, the large majority of control players, or those who want to play control, go with Landstill.

It's unfortunate that more Landstill players aren't willing to try my U/W/b CounterTop Walker deck (or similar variations) instead of Landstill.

mossivo1986

12-22-2010, 06:14 PM

QFT. Main reason why discussing the evolution of control in the Landstill thread is like beating a dead horse. Unfortunately, the large majority of control players, or those who want to play control, go with Landstill.

It's unfortunate that more Landstill players aren't willing to try my U/W/b CounterTop Walker deck (or similar variations) instead of Landstill.

I lol'd. You can't just stereotype an archtype of players and say they don't know how to reinvent the wheel. Just because your not content with Landstill's redundant meta game style shell doesn't mean that other people face the same problems. In fact what generally happens here is some new guy comes in and asks questions in the middle of a heated discussion, and because we are all so super sweet we detract from the conversation instead of just telling him to read the thread.

Just for referance this is Hanni's UBw counter top walker deck

U/W/b WalkerTop

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
4 [R] Tundra
2 [R] Underground Sea
1 [R] Scrubland
5 [UNH] Island
2 [UNH] Plains
1 [NE] Kor Haven

// Spells
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Predict
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [IA] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
2 [CFX] Path to Exile
2 [AP] Vindicate
2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [FNM] Duress
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate

TE]People with that idea apparently don't understand that Mishra's Factory in fact IS a creature upon activation, and therefore the opponent's Swords to Plowshares and Lightning Bolts ARE relevant creature removal. Just sayin. [/QUOTE]

I lol'd again, Usually when you activate factory your 100% certain, or forced to activate it in the face of removal. It's risk reward; but if your activating it to win the game then clearly you have control of the game state and should be denying opponents spells while putting them on this "clock."

Jace TMS is retardedly good, and those who think otherwise are only fooling themselves, Cid. No point in trying to convince people that don't want to be convinced.

Will you ever answer my question? If Jace the mind sculpter is so good in landstill; what matchups does it shore up to prove that its a better replacement.

Hanni

12-22-2010, 06:30 PM

You can't just stereotype an archtype of players and say they don't know how to reinvent the wheel.

Why can't I? I see buttloads of discussion going on in this thread about classical versions of Landstill, with very little to no discussion elsewhere.

Just because your not content with Landstill's redundant meta game style shell doesn't mean that other people face the same problems. In fact what generally happens here is some new guy comes in and asks questions in the middle of a heated discussion, and because we are all so super sweet we detract from the conversation instead of just telling him to read the thread.

It has nothing to do with not being content. The metagame is constantly changing, getting faster and more powerful with every new set they release. Yet, for some reason, Landstill looks almost exactly the same as it did 4 years ago.

Usually when you activate factory your 100% certain, or forced to activate it in the face of removal. It's risk reward; but if your activating it to win the game then clearly you have control of the game state and should be denying opponents spells while putting them on this "clock."

How does that have anything to do with my response to the discussion? Someone said that they like how they render their opponent's creature removal dead by not running creatures, giving them virtual card advantage, but they run Mishra's Factory. It doesn't matter whether or not you can deny the opponent said removal spell or not. I wasn't talking about the effectiveness of Mishra's Factory, I think you misunderstood my point.

Will you ever answer my question? If Jace the mind sculpter is so good in landstill; what matchups does it shore up to prove that its a better replacement.

I've answered the question of how powerful Jace is numerous times. In fact, I've answered tons of questions that you've asked numerous times, and I just don't see the point in trying to convince you of anything anymore.

Still want an answer? Jace wins games. Just how Elspeth has the ability to come down and seal a game up, Jace does the same thing. If you look at him as a slow Fact or Fiction, you're looking at him wrong. If you need to draw cards, Jace can do that. If you have a Counterspell in hand but no creature removal and need to get that menacing Tombstalker off the board, Jace can do that. If you're currently in control of the gamestate (the board is clear) and you need to drop a wincon/win the game, Jace can do that.

Jace becomes alot more poweful with CounterTop too, since you can fateseal away anything that CounterTop can't answer. Then again, you have your million reasons why Counterbalance, the premier control spell in the format, sucks in control decks.

Anyway, to cut a short discussion short, keep playing old school Landstill. If it wins you games, that's great. I like to pop in this thread from time to time and toss around my opinions for those that may value them. You don't have to agree with anything I say, and you can rebuttle me until your face turns blue if you'd like. I'll still love you, Mossivo.

Rico Suave

12-22-2010, 06:37 PM

Will you ever answer my question? If Jace the mind sculpter is so good in landstill; what matchups does it shore up to prove that its a better replacement.

I find this rather amusing given your current sig.

I think this is a poor question, and I think a lot of people say this all the time. "What matchup does this card improve." With Jace? How about every match? But people will ask this question with every deck and every card on these forums. It's almost like people believe

X cards for aggro
Y cards for combo
Z cards for control

and voila! I can't lose to any of them! But whatever happened to simply playing a strategy that is inherently better than my opponent's strategy, and beating him that way?

But this is beside the point anyway. The question isn't what does Jace do for Landstill. The question is why am I not playing Jace in my blue control deck. This card is revolutionary, and blue decks should be built around Jace because it's just that good.

Mana Drain

12-22-2010, 10:52 PM

QFT. Main reason why discussing the evolution of control in the Landstill thread is like beating a dead horse. Unfortunately, the large majority of control players, or those who want to play control, go with Landstill.

It's unfortunate that more Landstill players aren't willing to try my U/W/b CounterTop Walker deck (or similar variations) instead of Landstill.

People innovate, but most innovation is full of fail. I for one agree that Counterbalance is probably the most viable control element in Legacy, but finding the proper "overall" strategy to fit it varies, depending on what you are trying to achieve. I've gone through a million different blue control decks featuring CB, Intuition, Gifts, Thopter Foundry, PW's, etc., and found maybe 4-5 rough lists that were worth pursuing.

On trying something new: Duh. Mankind isn't a fan of change, and he sticks with what works (or at least what he perceives works). Legacy players are still human.

I lol'd again, Usually when you activate factory your 100% certain, or forced to activate it in the face of removal. It's risk reward; but if your activating it to win the game then clearly you have control of the game state and should be denying opponents spells while putting them on this "clock."

...

Will you ever answer my question? If Jace the mind sculpter is so good in landstill; what matchups does it shore up to prove that its a better replacement.

I also never find myself activating Factory unless 1) shit is going south, and I need a blocker or 2) I want to win in 10 turns, because you obivously failed.

I think Rico Suave's answer above me answers the Jace statement perfectly. It's not that he shores up matchups, it's that he's The Goddamn Mindsculptor. He's so good, he's worth running, regardless of gameplan if you play control and play blue. His versatility and his ability to win the game in 6 turns while providing disruption is nothing short of amazing. Brainstorm doesn't shore up any bad matchups, but it's so fucking good that I'll run 4 in every blue deck possible. The same philosophy applies to Jace, albeit in smaller numbers.

BUT, I usually side him out against anything playing red, and against Merfolk. At the end of the day, he's 4 mana, and a blue card, who dies to Red Blasts, Bolts, and can be really hard to resolve against mana-denial. Though I suppose the same could be said about other 4 mana bombs that we run, he's probably best as a 2-of, with support from Elspeth and Moat/Humility/WoG/Firespout.

mossivo1986

12-23-2010, 01:28 AM

I don't really care to argue about something that menotinous either. I can't deny that it does end up in some of my lists as well, and probobly will continue to do so.

I am currently working on a very strong toolbox list that I have selected a jace and a fof as singletons, and I think this will really be the deciding factor. My idea landstill is a nassif 1-1-1 build with so much utility that your always drawing well or brainstorming sub par cards out, and then siding them out post board.

My main concern with Jace is that the matchups I really want her in are matchups that i'm already god damn rediculously favored in. This doesn't warrent playing her. In the control matchup where I probobly am second most likely to play her, I think elspeth is just that much stronger. The same really goes for top-fact or fiction argument. While I LOVE top, I find that I can never squeeze it in comfortably.

Clearly we all have strong opinions. I am not saying i'm right or wrong; but one of the elements of playing legacy for a long time is that you inherit a keen sense on how redundancy is soo much more important with large tournaments and such. This is where I think that classic Landstill list that everyone talks about really is stronger. In smaller tourneys clearly you can get away with murder. And I love it. Anyways I'll see you on Team Bad Guys Mana drain.

-Love MoSs-

kiblast

12-23-2010, 07:13 AM

I don't really care to argue about something that menotinous either. I can't deny that it does end up in some of my lists as well, and probobly will continue to do so.

I am currently working on a very strong toolbox list that I have selected a jace and a fof as singletons, and I think this will really be the deciding factor. My idea landstill is a nassif 1-1-1 build with so much utility that your always drawing well or brainstorming sub par cards out, and then siding them out post board.

I'd really like to see your toolbox set-up, and how do you plan to get different things at the right time. Fore example an Englightened T. toolbox is pretty simple, but I fail to see how could you set up a toolbox wich includes different singletons such as a planeswalker, artifacts ( at least Crucible comes to mind) and sorceries/ istants (Wog and Fof).

My main concern with Jace is that the matchups I really want her in are matchups that i'm already god damn rediculously favored in. This doesn't warrent playing her. In the control matchup where I probobly am second most likely to play her, I think elspeth is just that much stronger. The same really goes for top-fact or fiction argument. While I LOVE top, I find that I can never squeeze it in comfortably.

I realized that Jace is too strong to have it out even in unfavored MU. For example AggroLoam is an unfavored MU, and I still want to see him in lategame. Merfolk is a though one if you don't pack Firespout and I still want to see him. Surely Elspeth is that much stronger, but Elspeth doesn't protect herself and you by hiding the best cards/ answer your opponent will topdeck.So I still play him on a 2x regular basis. I agree with you regarding Top. As much as everyone like saying that you can't play Legacy control without playing Countertop, I feel that it doesn't fit UWx.

mossivo1986

12-23-2010, 03:28 PM

I'd really like to see your toolbox set-up, and how do you plan to get different things at the right time. Fore example an Englightened T. toolbox is pretty simple, but I fail to see how could you set up a toolbox wich includes different singletons such as a planeswalker, artifacts ( at least Crucible comes to mind) and sorceries/ istants (Wog and Fof).

I realized that Jace is too strong to have it out even in unfavored MU. For example AggroLoam is an unfavored MU, and I still want to see him in lategame. Merfolk is a though one if you don't pack Firespout and I still want to see him. Surely Elspeth is that much stronger, but Elspeth doesn't protect herself and you by hiding the best cards/ answer your opponent will topdeck.So I still play him on a 2x regular basis. I agree with you regarding Top. As much as everyone like saying that you can't play Legacy control without playing Countertop, I feel that it doesn't fit UWx.

I may give it up, but not just yet. I'm going to be doing some testing with it first.

kiblast

12-30-2010, 09:52 PM

Ok, now i'm testing 2 Fof, and I have to say that in UWx (I play UWb) they can be really, really beastly. Sometimes they just pitch to Will instead . With 24 lands i rarely miss the 4th landdrop, but I hate to see 4cc's sitting unused in my hand. So i was thinking if UWb could play Esper Charm instead of Fof. Esper is particularly interesting for its first ability, for example to have an O-Ringed Jace back on the battlefield. Even the instant discard effect could be interesting in some situation. I think we should give it a try.

ChiiMagic

12-30-2010, 10:38 PM

Hey all, just thought I'd share that I won another local tourney with my UWR-scepterstill (knappstill).
I'll exclude my list to save time, but I'm sure you can jump back a few pages and find it. So here's a mini report.
R1 U/G Natural Order
Game 1 I land a scepter and a chant in the face of Progenitus and some irrelevent creatures and he concedes.
Game 2 I stick a turn 4 Peacekeeper, and since he wasn't playing white, I figured he had no removal, so I let him get Progenitus and an army of shitters before I cast Jace TMS and kill him.
R2 Mono U Merfolk
Game 1He turn 1 drops vial, then standstill and lords me out.
Game 2 He has the same start, but I throw a Peacekeeper out on turn 4 with Island and Plains in play and he concedes.
Game 3 I end up losing through no fault of my opponents, but the cards weren't in it for me this game.
R3 I get paired against my friend who I had built the same 75 for, we're both 1-1 so we decide to play it out. I win in a quick 2 games with much more experience w the deck and the mirror.
R4 Zoo
Game 1 I deal with his rush of early dudes and land crucible + waste to take his red sources away before I get burned out, and Mishra's Factories do the clean up.
Game 2 I kept a hand with EE, 2STP, BEB, and lands. Needless to say I won.
R5 I'd with Natural Order Elves Survival
Top 8
I get paired against the doofus merfolk player from before, but he has other obligations and leaves. How nice?
Semifinals
I get paired against my friend from round 3 who managed to squeak in the top 8 at X-2. He just concedes this time lol. This top 8 is seeming to go pretty well.
Finals
My opponent asks me to split, but I've never gotten anywhere in life pussyfooting around and letting people have prizes they didn't deserve, so I decline. He's playing Canadian Thresh. He has no early action other than a Tarmogoyf around turn 6ish which gets STP. We just play draw go until I have enough mana to cast Orim's Chant, JaceTMS, Elspeth Knight-Errant, and kick them both up to 5 before passing the turn. He scooped soon after.
Game 2 He again kept a hand with no pressure at all, so I was free to sit back and play lands until I wanted to do something. I took some Trygon Predator beats eventually, held him under scepter-chant for a few turns, then landed a Jace and killed him.
I took home 4 minty FOW for my trouble. Happy new year's to everybody!

Mana Drain

12-31-2010, 01:00 PM

So i was thinking if UWb could play Esper Charm instead of Fof. Esper is particularly interesting for its first ability, for example to have an O-Ringed Jace back on the battlefield. Even the instant discard effect could be interesting in some situation. I think we should give it a try.

I dig this idea. 3 mana instant speed card draw, possible instant speed hand dump, and a 3cc CB removal spell. Although I can't think of many enchantments that see play now to remove. Sylvan Library, Choke, O-ring(?), and that's all I got. But still, 3 mana card advantage at instant speed could be could. Just a damn shame, the mana requirements...

EDIT: Working on a possible list with the charm...

Hanni

12-31-2010, 01:13 PM

but one of the elements of playing legacy for a long time is that you inherit a keen sense on how redundancy is soo much more important with large tournaments and such.

You can have redundancy without the classic shell, though.

I dig this idea. 3 mana instant speed card draw, possible instant speed hand dump, and a 3cc CB removal spell. Although I can't think of many enchantments that see play now to remove. Sylvan Library, Choke, O-ring(?), and that's all I got. But still, 3 mana card advantage at instant speed could be could. Just a damn shame, the mana requirements...

I like Esper Charm, I've seen it used to good effect. It's a bit restrictive in cost though.

For those running Top, seriously consider Predict. It costs 2 mana, instant speed, and is a virtual draw 3.

Felidae

01-01-2011, 10:57 AM

Regarding Esper Charm: I don't think that it can fit into the place of FoF, as it doesn't dig deep enought, compared to Fof, plus the mana required to cast this aren't ideal (do you really want either Scrubland or USea on the field by turn 3 /5 ?). As for the flexibility; do we really need more ways to beat one of our best mu's?

As for Landstill in general I believe that this year looks promising to us, the meta looks very friendly towards big fat 4cc bombs.

This will be the list I'm going to play , at least for the next months:

4 Tundra
1 Glacier Fortress
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Plateau
2 Island
2 Plains
4 Mishras Factory
2 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats

1 Eternal Dragon

4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Wrath of God
1 Day of Judgement
1 Humility
1 Enlighted Tutor
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
2 Decree of Justice

1 Crucible of Worlds

Side:
3 Meddling Mage
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormnonds Crypt
2 Vindicate
2 Negate
3 Hydroblast
2 Peacekeeper / Preacher

GGoober

01-03-2011, 03:43 PM

You can have redundancy without the classic shell, though.

I like Esper Charm, I've seen it used to good effect. It's a bit restrictive in cost though.

For those running Top, seriously consider Predict. It costs 2 mana, instant speed, and is a virtual draw 3.

Esper Charm won't cut it in a meta of Wastelands. I doubt you will hit UWB consistently on turn 3. If you want to draw spells past turn 3, then FoF is INFINITELYbetter. (dig 2 for UWB or dig 5 for 3U??). The disenchanting effect is decent, and the discard rarely useful (aka win-more scenarios).

And as good as Top + Predict it, people always fail to realize that Top + Standstill is even better (digs far more with less mana). Top before Standstill strengthes Standstill. The issue becomes the debate whether Standstill > Predict, but to not digress from the thread, the answer is yes because we are in the Landstill thread and whether you agree/disagree if Standstill is a good draw engine, that's for a topic in another thread.

Chii was the list the same list as your GenCon list with Faerie Conclaves? I've been picking up UWr Scepterstill over UWb now that the Vengevival craze has died down. I'm trying to tweak a list with 20 blue counts to support FoW while running Helix over Fire//Ice. Fire//Ice despite being a beast on Scepter, isn't doing much for me. Helix has been promising since it takes out 3/3s (i.e. Zoo and Lord'd Folks). This is highly critical for me. When I used Fire//Ice, I was usually using it as a burn in most situations (situations where I Ice'd I'm either winning more or hopelessly losing). Helix ensures that I keep the board under control since Bolt-damage takes out quite a lot of relevant target where Fire//Ice could not. Finally, Helix gives me more stability, 3 life point is quite critical, and if you stick it on a scepter, it's as overpowered as a Fire//Ice (kills faster and puts yuor life total to a very safe zone where you can start ignoring most things).

Anyway, I'm still tweaking the ratios of blue:non-blue and the removal/counter/draw slots for this build. Recently I've been thinking for the non-sweeping approaches of Landstill, you really need every card to maximize its effect, to me, Helix being able to bolt for 3 and gain 3 life has more value than Fire//Ice which either wins-more or does nothing if you're losing to Goyf/Knights. I could be wrong, but that's what I felt with Fire//Ice from testing. It definitely didn't clunk up FoW which Helix is currently doing...

Mana Drain

01-03-2011, 08:48 PM

Esper Charm won't cut it in a meta of Wastelands. I doubt you will hit UWB consistently on turn 3. If you want to draw spells past turn 3, then FoF is INFINITELYbetter. (dig 2 for UWB or dig 5 for 3U??). The disenchanting effect is decent, and the discard rarely useful (aka win-more scenarios).

After thinking about the mana requirements, I have to agree with this. Nailing CB is cool, but not cool enough to justify UWB.

And as good as Top + Predict it, people always fail to realize that Top + Standstill is even better (digs far more with less mana). Top before Standstill strengthes Standstill. The issue becomes the debate whether Standstill > Predict, but to not digress from the thread, the answer is yes because we are in the Landstill thread and whether you agree/disagree if Standstill is a good draw engine, that's for a topic in another thread.

I don't think Hanni is talking about removing Standstill. Really, it's pretty hard to argue against Standstill as being the best draw engine in blue control (sans Jace of course, but he's not reliable as a draw engine). Using 2-3 Predict in addition to your draw lineup while running 3+ Tops is reasonable. Card advantage is card advantage, and Landstill doesn't run any engine cards (like Intuition> recursion type of plays). Plus, 2 mana for situational card advantage is still 2 mana for card advantage. The situations when Predict is good are quite common.

Chii was the list the same list as your GenCon list with Faerie Conclaves? I've been picking up UWr Scepterstill over UWb now that the Vengevival craze has died down. I'm trying to tweak a list with 20 blue counts to support FoW while running Helix over Fire//Ice. Fire//Ice despite being a beast on Scepter, isn't doing much for me. Helix has been promising since it takes out 3/3s (i.e. Zoo and Lord'd Folks). This is highly critical for me. When I used Fire//Ice, I was usually using it as a burn in most situations (situations where I Ice'd I'm either winning more or hopelessly losing). Helix ensures that I keep the board under control since Bolt-damage takes out quite a lot of relevant target where Fire//Ice could not. Finally, Helix gives me more stability, 3 life point is quite critical, and if you stick it on a scepter, it's as overpowered as a Fire//Ice (kills faster and puts yuor life total to a very safe zone where you can start ignoring most things).

I'd be lying if I said I knew anything about Scepter combo's, but wouldn't Lightning Bolt work just as effectively, for R instead of RW? Against Wasteland, this is highly relevant. Is 3 life really worth the extra mana? On a Scepter Helix is obviously superior, but as a stand-alone card, Bolt looks to get the job done just fine. Also great against T1 Birds/Hierarch/Lackey/Nacatl. Just an idea.

Anyway, I'm still tweaking the ratios of blue:non-blue and the removal/counter/draw slots for this build. Recently I've been thinking for the non-sweeping approaches of Landstill, you really need every card to maximize its effect, to me, Helix being able to bolt for 3 and gain 3 life has more value than Fire//Ice which either wins-more or does nothing if you're losing to Goyf/Knights. I could be wrong, but that's what I felt with Fire//Ice from testing. It definitely didn't clunk up FoW which Helix is currently doing...

Extra Paths? I agree that KotR, Goyf, War Monk, and other fat men are much more threatening than things that Bolt/Helix can solve (sans Lackey/Nacatl). Path is way better in the mid-range matchup also, which is a weak point of Landstill (like The Rock, and Bant).
It doesn't stop the blue-count problem, but no blue card is ever going to substitute for effective spot removal. For what it's worth, I don't run any Wastelands in Landstill, so Path is always a top choice for me.

Hanni

01-03-2011, 09:12 PM

I don't think Hanni is talking about removing Standstill.

In this deck? No. I meant that before I started looking into Esper Charm, I'd be looking into Predict (for the builds with Top).

However, I'm still of the viewpoint that Landstill is a dying breed. Playing blue based control in Legacy without CounterTop is wrong, and once you start building the deck around CounterTop, Standstill + Factory is no longer good enough. My control deck was originally a Landstill deck and eventually evolved away from it.

Running Factory itself forces the deck into a weaker and less stable manabase (since the Factories alone are 4 nonbasic colorless sources, not counting any extra chaff like Wasteland, Academy Ruins, Tolaria West, etc). One of the most important aspects of a strong control deck is a stable manabase; being unable to cast bombs like Elspeth because of manabase problems is /fail.

Secondly, Standstill requires that the opponent has no pressure on the board, making Standstill a liability; it does nothing for you when you actually need it (when you're behind).

In classic Landstill, Standstill + Factory is fine, because the deck is focused around that interaction. In a CounterTop control deck, Predict becomes a superior draw engine.

Unfortunately, I seem to be only one of few that feel that way about control in the current format, but maybe that's why control has been a dying breed for some time. I think once people start to trend away from Landstill and more towards CounterTop based control decks, control will start doing a little better in the format. CounterTop control is just positioned much better. Don't get me wrong, Supreme Blue with 4 Goyf and 2 Clique has done consistently well, and it is also a CounterTop control deck, but I'm of the opinion that Elspeth/Jace and no creatures is the better route for control.

Mana Drain

01-03-2011, 11:33 PM

While I agree that Standstill has major problems, we also have to live in the real world and realize that CB has major problems too, and both of the problems are infact similar (Vial decks, for one).

However, I'm still of the viewpoint that Landstill is a dying breed. Playing blue based control in Legacy without CounterTop is wrong, and once you start building the deck around CounterTop, Standstill + Factory is no longer good enough. My control deck was originally a Landstill deck and eventually evolved away from it.

I think I've addressed this before, but again, playing CounterTop to maximum effectiveness requires building your entire curve around it.This is fine and dandy if you intend to be swinging with low-cost, efficient dudes, under the protection of CB. But trying to kill a swarm of goblins or fish requires cards on the upper end of the curve. In addition, the most powerful creature control cards with a lasting impact on the game available to control players are at 3-4 mana. I'm not saying that it's impossible to build a viable heavy control build with CB (trust me, it's not), but it does force the CB deck to make significant concessions to the curve.

Besides all of the above, I'm going to repeat that Standstill and CB both have the same problems: Fast draws and Vial decks that make both enchantments irrelevant. Control needs to find a way stop early game assualts, while still maintaining a solid, reliable lategame strategy that doesn't fold to pressure on the board (Standstill and CB both suck in this situation).

Running Factory itself forces the deck into a weaker and less stable manabase (since the Factories alone are 4 nonbasic colorless sources, not counting any extra chaff like Wasteland, Academy Ruins, Tolaria West, etc). One of the most important aspects of a strong control deck is a stable manabase; being unable to cast bombs like Elspeth because of manabase problems is /fail.

I couldn't agree more. Unfortunately, if you run Standstill, you either run Manlands or Vial. Since we're Landstill, we run manlands.

Secondly, Standstill requires that the opponent has no pressure on the board, making Standstill a liability; it does nothing for you when you actually need it (when you're behind).

This fact is undeniable. The idea of the deck is to never let your opponent get too far ahead without having a reset plan, and then drop a Standstill when the coast is clear and win. Sometimes this plan fails or is voided (Vial). When this happens, we tend to lose. It comes with playing the deck.

Unfortunately, I seem to be only one of few that feel that way about control in the current format, but maybe that's why control has been a dying breed for some time. I think once people start to trend away from Landstill and more towards CounterTop based control decks, control will start doing a little better in the format. CounterTop control is just positioned much better. Don't get me wrong, Supreme Blue with 4 Goyf and 2 Clique has done consistently well, and it is also a CounterTop control deck, but I'm of the opinion that Elspeth/Jace and no creatures is the better route for control.

Your thoughts on improving control are not the only ones. I for one will always love playing Landstill, because I love playing real control decks. Even Standard control decks are just aggro decks with a higher creature curve. Nobody plays decks that are devoid of creatures nowadays, unless you play combo. Landstill is that deck, and is really the last of it's kind in Magic. Rant over.

Also, I'll be dropping a primer (hopefully with the help of two other competent guys on the source) on a control deck in the next few days in the N&D forum. It's not new, but I feel it died way before it's time. So I hope to see you in it Hanni.

ChiiMagic

01-03-2011, 11:42 PM

Rico Suave

01-04-2011, 02:17 AM

Your thoughts on improving control are not the only ones. I for one will always love playing Landstill, because I love playing real control decks. Even Standard control decks are just aggro decks with a higher creature curve. Nobody plays decks that are devoid of creatures nowadays, unless you play combo. Landstill is that deck, and is really the last of it's kind in Magic. Rant over.

So what is a real control deck?

GGoober

01-04-2011, 03:12 AM

@Metalwalker
Yeah, it was the same as my GenCon list, except the SB was slightly different. I ran 4 Meddling Mage, 3 Tormod's Crypt, 1 REB, 2 BEB, 2 Descendant of Kiyomaro, 3 Peacekeeper.
As far as the thoughts about Lightning Helix/Bolt, I actually used to play Bolt in a very early iteration of the deck, but a simple 3 damage isn't worth the slot that it takes up. Helix however is pretty sweet, but I couldn't bring myself to replace F/I with it. Even when the Goyf's/KoTR are out, F/I can buy you a valuable turn by tapping them, or dealing with them permanently on a Scepter by locking them out. I think the versatility to be able to take out a pair of X/1's or tap a big guy/ draw a card, or even cause mana issues by tapping down your opponents lands off a scepter is more valuable than the life/damage of helix, but you're certainly not wrong for wanting the helix. It's definitely arguable, but I would stick with Fire/Ice.

Thanks for the feedback. The critical issue with Helix is not being blue, and involves a recombination of blue spells to support FoW comfortably, and the question becomes does reworking the other spells affect the overall deck? That's something I have to test out. I think my meta isn't too suited for Fire//Ice. I do believe the buying a turn to tap down a Goyf/KotR where Helix would not have accomplished much either but I usually try to avoid those scenarios or simply view the situation as a losing-end to re-evaluate deck design/choices. In the rare instances Helix does nail down a Knight/Goyf and has a better chance at doing so if postboarded Relics come in.

But my main move towards Helix is the stabilizing ability. I often find myself needing 25-30 life total in a control game to not die. This could be a combination of Pulse/Wish, or pseudo-life with Scepter putting some advantage/turns. I'm focused on a Zoo/Gob/Merfolk aggro meta (a few Bant players) and I think Fire//Ice could do well, but I'm thinking testing Helix aint bad since it would be able to hit most Folks if they ever get double Lord/Coralhelm (shit happens with that stupid deck). And if Fire//Ice or Helix is on a stick, I don't think you need to worry about a Knight when he is constantly doing 3 less damage (3 from healing Salve) while you're blasting his face or his other x/3 threats off.

Peacekeeper is a beast (everytime I resolved it, my opponents called me a douche and lost over turns, some friends even try to Jedi-mindtrick me by wasting my tapped Tundra under Peacekeeper in hopes that I forget to pay W for him), haven't tested Descendant, but on paper, he looks beastly: 3/5 Lifelink (gain 3 life) non-REB'ble RWM with a 5-toughness. Out of curiosity, isn't Ethersworn Canonist better against combo/enchantress in most situations? Meddling Mage doesn't do much against REB/Wishes but CAnonist slows them down, not to mention really hating out Enchantress and buying time.

@Mana Drain/Hanni: To me, Landstill is landstill. It could be THE REAL control deck, or it could be Dreadstill or a Countertop/Supreme Blue or Hanni's list. To me, what is a control deck is the correct metagame deck that seeks to control the game. In this respect, it's sometimes great to take Landstill (in a Countertop, tribal and aggro-heavy meta) for a spin, or grab Dreadstill (Merfolk, fast-decks, combo-heavy meta), or Countertop (combo, midrange aggro e.g. Bant/Rock/Loam, non-goblin meta).

There's a ton of things that come into mind when playing control, and all I can say, Landstill is fine the way it is. It's the pilot that fucks up. And there are plenty of capable Landstill players in the world (check Top8s), it's a deck that's underplayed, and doesn't have a cheating factor like most Legacy decks do. More importantly, since it's a metagame deck, it's not really comprised of a specific gameplan except on always assuming the control role in the matchup it plays, and this causes a lot of piloting or deck-designing mistakes that fundamentally lead to bad results.

Personally, after my success/failures with Landstill, I always learn valuable lessons e.g. I should not have played Landstill in this tourney/meta, or I made the wrong card choices, or I wasn't familiar with this matchup and played it wrong, or I got greedy and wanted to establish aggression (resolving Jace) when the time wasn't right. The true-reason why I enjoy Landstill is the lessons I learn from playing the deck, and coincidentally, the Landstill shell is highly tunable (UWB Wishstill, Speedstill, UWg, UWr, Scepterstill, lists with Countertop, lists with Crucible/no-Crucible/Humility/no-Humility, Sweeper v.s. non-sweeper approaches), and since it's a metagame deck, this ability to tune a deck to changes awards good decisions in deckbuilding and playing. That is personally most satisfying for me in MTG, and is the reason why I still play the deck despite some tears once in awhile where the deck completely craps out ;___;