[Deck] UW(x) Landstill

[kiblast]

Thanks for the feedback. The critical issue with Helix is not being blue, and involves a recombination of blue spells to support FoW comfortably, and the question becomes does reworking the other spells affect the overall deck? That's something I have to test out. I think my meta isn't too suited for Fire//Ice. I do believe the buying a turn to tap down a Goyf/KotR where Helix would not have accomplished much either but I usually try to avoid those scenarios or simply view the situation as a losing-end to re-evaluate deck design/choices. In the rare instances Helix does nail down a Knight/Goyf and has a better chance at doing so if postboarded Relics come in.

C'mon. We are not playing a tempo deck. Fire/Ice is amazing in decks where the ''Tap you blocker to Time Walk'' effect is worth, i.e. Canadian Threshold. In Landstill, you tap their KOTR, and then what? Beat with a 5/5 Mishra's factory ? Or you try to topdeck a StP? Both Fire/Ice and Lightning Helix seem bad in Landstill. Lightning bolt however could be useful consideering the presence in the format of Lackey. But again, I'd rather play PtE as 5th and 6th Stp instead. What would you remove to play F/I ? EE? I don't think so.


But my main move towards Helix is the stabilizing ability. I often find myself needing 25-30 life total in a control game to not die. This could be a combination of Pulse/Wish, or pseudo-life with Scepter putting some advantage/turns. I'm focused on a Zoo/Gob/Merfolk aggro meta (a few Bant players) and I think Fire//Ice could do well, but I'm thinking testing Helix aint bad since it would be able to hit most Folks if they ever get double Lord/Coralhelm (shit happens with that stupid deck). And if Fire//Ice or Helix is on a stick, I don't think you need to worry about a Knight when he is constantly doing 3 less damage (3 from healing Salve) while you're blasting his face or his other x/3 threats off.

I don't run gain life effects. I think that 20 life total is enough to win a legacy game. Except against Burn, but you have a sideboard, no? and against fast decks (such as Burn) any other decent Life gain tech (such as Cunning wish into Pulse) is slow as fuck. Helix is not so needed considering that it forces you to always have both secondary colours on board. If I'd play Helix as a life gain source, still I'd play Cunning Wish into Pulse, and even at that point, I'd rather not play Life gain at all, simply because I think that Cunning Wish is too slow.


Peacekeeper is a beast (everytime I resolved it, my opponents called me a douche and lost over turns, some friends even try to Jedi-mindtrick me by wasting my tapped Tundra under Peacekeeper in hopes that I forget to pay W for him), haven't tested Descendant, but on paper, he looks beastly: 3/5 Lifelink (gain 3 life) non-REB'ble RWM with a 5-toughness. Out of curiosity, isn't Ethersworn Canonist better against combo/enchantress in most situations? Meddling Mage doesn't do much against REB/Wishes but CAnonist slows them down, not to mention really hating out Enchantress and buying time.

Agree on Peacekeeper.
Probably he's siding Descendant against Burn/Sligh/ WR landfall sligh. I don't think it is really helpful against Combo/Enchantress. In fact, I fail to see how could you side it against Combo/Enchantress.


The true-reason why I enjoy Landstill is the lessons I learn from playing the deck, and coincidentally, the Landstill shell is highly tunable (UWB Wishstill, Speedstill, UWg, UWr, Scepterstill, lists with Countertop, lists with Crucible/no-Crucible/Humility/no-Humility, Sweeper v.s. non-sweeper approaches)

Speedstill? What's that?

[Rune]

Speedstill? What's that?

It's Landstill with 23 lands, 0-2 Counterspells (3-4 Snares) and Vindicates + PtEs instead instead of the traditional Wraths and Humility. Also plays Kitchen Finks sometimes

[Mana Drain]

So what is a real control deck?

Real control decks as in board control + counters + draw spells + ~4-6 finishers + land. I think Standard best illustrates what I'm talking about: From 1996 (Wiesman style control) to the last year or so when decks like 5c Control and UW control took over. These decks started playng more and more creatures either as good walls, utility creatures, or both. Now decks like modern UW control play 6-8 creatures, in addition to 2-5 PWs, use 7-10 counters and maybe 7-8 draw spells including Ponder. Controls best strategy in modern Standard is play creatures too, just bigger ones. I feel like this is what Legacy is coming to due to creature power-creep and Wizards considerably toning down blue.

Control decks are turning into aggro decks with more counters and removal.

[Hanni]

Didn't U/W Control from back in the day run Serra Angels?

I know Landstill used to run (and some still do) Eternal Dragon, and I consider Mishra's Factory to be a creature. So basically, U/W Control has always used a creature as their win condition, just some have better synergy than others (Factory + sweepers like WoG, etc).

If you want a creature-less control deck, my U/W/x CounterTop Walker runs 0 creatures. It's win conditions are 2/2/2 Elspeth/Jace/Shackles. If you don't mind running 4-6 creatures, Supreme Blue is likely the best out there right now (at least, based on tournament results).

[Mana Drain]

Wiesmans list didn't run 6 Serra Angels though, and he wouldn't have if he could. He only ran 2, and for a reason: because she was the best finisher after you had taken control, not because she beat all the aggro decks when she it hits play on T5.

Creatures have always been the kill condition of control decks, mainly because it's pretty difficult to actually win with a single non-creature spell. Eternal Dragon and Factory are only run because they serve as win-conditions once you have control of the game, while also being useful for producing mana or searching for land. UW control of 2009-2010 Standard ran 4 Baneslayer Angels, not to use as a post-control finisher, but because she is that good against aggro decks. And of course, she makes a fine finisher too. Sun Titan and Frost Titan serve much the same purpose: just being bad-ass cards who will pull you in from behind, while also conviently being 6/6 beaters or a 5/5 flyer.

I like the CounterWalker deck, and would be playing it if I didn't have a CB deck of my own on the front burner. I'm starting to think that Tarmogoyf really does belong in any deck that can produce green. Somebody, somewhere in the world, is brewing up UWg StandGoyfStill. And it's probably a beast.

[Rico Suave]

Wiesmans list didn't run 6 Serra Angels though, and he wouldn't have if he could. He only ran 2, and for a reason: because she was the best finisher after you had taken control, not because she beat all the aggro decks when she it hits play on T5.

So you don't think this applies to, say, Morphling?

[The Treefolk Master]

UWr Landstill won the Legacy Master at Magic League. This is the list:

1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
3 Island
2 Plains
4 Tundra
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Polluted Delta
2 Volcanic Island
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Humility
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Wrath of God
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Standstill
3 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm

Sideboard:

2 Path to Exile
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Humility
3 Peacekeeper
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Ethersworn Canonist

More info: http://magic-league.com/deck/66741/legacy_t15.html#Jacestill58781

[Mana Drain]

So you don't think this applies to, say, Morphling?

It does apply to Morphling, but again, Morphling was used more as a finisher, rather than a wall/"drop whenever because he's so good" creature. Most BBS/MUC lists only ran 2-3 Morphman, and dropping him when your opponent my have a counter or removal for him wasn't something players would risk. Under the most common and ideal conditions, you had a few counters in hand and 6-8 mana on the board when you would drop Morphling, making him a safe, reliable, 4 turn clock. The main point I'm trying to drive across is when decks start packing 4 Baneslayer, 2-3 Titans, 3-4 Wall of Omens, 2-3 Sea Gate Oracle, in addition to 2-5 PWs, you're just a bigger, slower aggro deck. It's just not the same anymore. But that's they way it is, so we gotta deal with it.

That list that won the ML tournament was certainly a good call from whoever piloted it. Nice 3x PKs in the board to shut out Loam, Folk, and Affinity.
Also, GOGO DEWDROP SPY!

[Rico Suave]

It does apply to Morphling, but again, Morphling was used more as a finisher, rather than a wall/"drop whenever because he's so good" creature. Most BBS/MUC lists only ran 2-3 Morphman, and dropping him when your opponent my have a counter or removal for him wasn't something players would risk. Under the most common and ideal conditions, you had a few counters in hand and 6-8 mana on the board when you would drop Morphling, making him a safe, reliable, 4 turn clock. The main point I'm trying to drive across is when decks start packing 4 Baneslayer, 2-3 Titans, 3-4 Wall of Omens, 2-3 Sea Gate Oracle, in addition to 2-5 PWs, you're just a bigger, slower aggro deck. It's just not the same anymore. But that's they way it is, so we gotta deal with it.

That list that won the ML tournament was certainly a good call from whoever piloted it. Nice 3x PKs in the board to shut out Loam, Folk, and Affinity.
Also, GOGO DEWDROP SPY!

I think you might have a few misconceptions.

http://www.magicdeckvortex.com/DDB/accelerated_blue_patrick_j_dec.htm

The description in that link says it all.

"This version of Blue Control differed from everything since Mana Vault had been legal in Standard for turn 2 Air Elementals... The goal here was to utilize Grim Monolith to exploits Blue's then-greatest strengths. Its best cards in-Block (excepting Windfall etc.) were not finesse counters but its raw muscle, namely Morphling, Treachery, and the bulk card drawing spells, which could themselves serve as finishers. Rather than worrying about holding back early game for Counterspell as Blue players may have historically done, PatrickJ.dec aficionados set up Grim Monolith early game in order to make their best cards faster and stronger. Racing with the third turn Morphling was a common game plan for this deck."

I can show you versions playing Masticores on top of Morphlings to simulate 6+ creature finishers too, but I think you get the point.

And what kind of control spawned after this? Dr. Teeth? Wake with their combo flavored kills? The Keiga tap out blue approach? Tron centered decks with their accelerated Sundering Titans? These were all prestigious control decks that packed a proactive game plan.

You think the Weissman style of play died out a year or so ago, I think it died out over a decade ago. Building an impenetrable wall of defense is simply not a winning strategy like it was in 94 and the game has moved beyond it a long time ago.

[GGoober]

TL DR; What I feel Rico is trying to say: To narrow your views on control to a certain strategy/playstyle is to miss the point of control entirely. If he does not mean this, I mean this.

In my opinion, a control deck is a deck that has a set of strategy that best answers the metagame. Inherently, a control deck is probably as anti-metagame a deck can ever be. Despite the fact that it has win-conditions e.g. Serra Angel/Masticore/Morphling/Jace 2/Factories, the bulk of the strategy is to still assume the control role before winning, that's the definition of control. And to assume the control role is to make metagame decisions, correct cards/strategies that nullify opponent's strategies/cards.

This is why I feel that to think of Landstill as THE CONTROL deck is wrong. I used to think in that light. When I think of control, I think of what tools can I use to best fight against the meta. Dreadstill has a set of strong tools that are strong against various matchups, but so does Landstill, Supreme Blue etc. Every deck is not impenetrable, there are weaknesses, there are strengths. Would Morphling be played in the Urza metagame if the metagame was different or other options were available? Why was Serra Angel played in Weismann's list? This is because for that particular metagame, Morphling/Serra Angel were the trump cards in the meta when combined with control elements e.g. StP/counterspell. After the board is under control, Serra Angel will beat the crap out of everything outside of a Shivan Dragon, which is dealt with StP/Counterspell. In the current Legacy metagame, to assume that a creatureless approach (Hanni's list) or a Dreadnought approach (Dreadstill) or a Landstill approach is the best answer to the metagame is entirely missing the point of control.

There is, however, an element of preference, sense of attachment, dislikes and likes for certain playstyles that drive into players into picking Landstill over Dreadstill over countertop over Stax etc. And I think this is one big reason why threads exists in the first place. Because a metagame is a metagame, there will be the best decks and anti-decks available, but other 'subpar' decks will still be discussed because of the inherent attachment, or the belief that these decks can be innovated and adapted to the meta. And this is the very reason I enjoy Landstill even if it is not ideally positioned in a meta. It's one of the few decks that has a ton of flex slots that can be changed to combat a meta, and is the reason why I tie it to be more of a control deck than other control variants. When you have a control deck that cannot shift to adapt, then it is a control deck efficient for a specific type of meta. One can argue Landstill sucks against most archetype so this is a moot point, but I don't believe the archetype Landstill sucks, I think it's mostly the pilot's mistake in card choices and play mistakes that account for its losses. At least I personally strongly believe that the archetype is strong, but a challenging one to master, and even more challenging one to build and pick the correct choice of cards that best answers the current threats. Since the deck has no 'cheating' wins, this decision of card choices become even more crucial to the success/failure of the deck.

I guess my post was even more TLDR than Rico's lol.

[klaus]

Somebody, somewhere in the world, is brewing up UWg StandGoyfStill. And it's probably a beast.

It's been done before and discarded.
Even StifleNought-StandGoyf.dec got rid of the fella.

[Mana Drain]

I've never said that other, less-heavy control decks with a more prominent/earlier plan of aggression (Dreadstill, CB Goyf, Standard Faeries) were bad choices or subpar. In fact, both decks are great control decks, but I don't find them nearly as fun or similar to play as decks like Landstill. Landstill plays just like BBS (Vintage), Draw-Go (Tempest), Masti/Morph era- blue control, Mirrodin-era MUC, and TSP-era Dralnu UB. All these decks played for the control roll, and did use effective big men to help stabilize and win, but most weren't running them with the plan of dropping them ASAP. Accelerated Blue was an exception to the rule, and completely different from other blue decks at the time. Though, I guess you are correct in that it did start the trend of a more aggressive blue deck rather than the reactive, counter-everything blue. Trying to build an "impenetrable wall" stopped happening after Sligh decks became known, and to some extent, Necro-decks. The goals for control for 11-12 years of Magic were: Stay alive, Stabilize, Win. Do this by any means necessary. In my opinion, the goals now are "play a few counters, kill a few dudes, drop Jace/BSA/Titan ASAP, Win." Regardless of what you think, I was just expressing my opinion on the last page that I don't find these modern control decks to play like control decks of years past, and this argument is taking the thread way the fuck off course (you know, talking about Landstill, and how to improve it).

Traditional control (Weissman) died a decade ago. Cool beans. That doesn't change the fact that were all in a Landstill thread, not a CB/Dreadstill thread, and talking about how the deck is dying/not viable. I hope somebody else out there thinks that this is a problem.

[Rico Suave]

The point is that Landstill follows this same path. Landstill isn't about establishing control anymore than T2 Control decks are. How often do you simply play an Elspeth or Jace then ride it to victory? This deck isn't a REAL control deck anymore than the Standard decks you have been criticizing.

[GGoober]

I don't really follow your last post Rico:


The point is that Landstill follows this same path. Landstill isn't about establishing control anymore than T2 Control decks are. How often do you simply play an Elspeth or Jace then ride it to victory? This deck isn't a REAL control deck anymore than the Standard decks you have been criticizing.


Then what is control? Dreadnought, BSA, Jace 2, Elspeth, Factories, Treachery, Morphling are simply objects, cards. Every phase in Magic has had its control decks, irregardless of the cards they play. Any matchup will have a control player v.s. an aggressor, even if it is a gob v.s. Zoo matchup. It is just that usually a deck like countertop/Landstill/Dreadstill likes to assume the control role because the strategy is based around that role. It has nothing to do with riding a Jace/Elspeth/Dreadnought/BSA/Squire to victory.

Certain control decks die out over time because its specific strategy is no longer viable e.g. Dreadstill died out for some time when Pridemage was printed and became the new hot creature alongside with Grips. Landstill died out when the meta was super combo heavy and flooded with Fish.

What is a REAL control deck to you then? (I'm kinda confused)

[jazzykat]

Been testing a lot vs this deck with many decks but am not finding to many things that beat it. What are the typical bad matchups goblins and Merfolk?

[Hanni]

goblins and Merfolk

The versions without Counterbalance?

Aggro Loam, Dragon Stompy, Goblins, Merfolk, Cat Sligh, Fast Zoo, Storm Combo.

There's others, but that's a long enough list already.

[kiblast]

The versions without Counterbalance?

Aggro Loam, Dragon Stompy, Goblins, Merfolk, Cat Sligh, Fast Zoo, Storm Combo.

There's others, but that's a long enough list already.

Loam can be defeated through Meddling mages and very tight playing. Merfolk is not a bad matchup, storm combo is not either , as I tend to run 4 Spell Pierce in side + 3 Meddling Mages. Dragon Stompy is not a deck anymore, or at least is not so played to justify its inclusion in the bad MU list. Goblins, Zoo and Cat zoo are hardly a good matchup but I would not call em an hard matchup. Hey, if those are ''bad MUs'' for us running mass sweepers, EE and 6 sword effect, what do they represent for the rest of the meta? Nightmare MUs??? / sarcasm.

[Hanni]

Loam can be defeated through Meddling mages and very tight playing. Merfolk is not a bad matchup, storm combo is not either , as I tend to run 4 Spell Pierce in side + 3 Meddling Mages. Dragon Stompy is not a deck anymore, or at least is not so played to justify its inclusion in the bad MU list. Goblins, Zoo and Cat zoo are hardly a good matchup but I would not call em an hard matchup. Hey, if those are ''bad MUs'' for us running mass sweepers, EE and 6 sword effect, what do they represent for the rest of the meta? Nightmare MUs??? / sarcasm.

I never said those matchups were unwinnable. He asked what some bad matchups were, so I listed some bad matchups. Also, you're off your rocker if you think Merfolk isn't a bad matchup.

Oh, and before somebody jumps on me and says that Merfolk and Goblins are just as bad for lists with Counterbalance, I know they are. If you look in that list though, there's several matchups that Counterbalance significantly improves.

[Rico Suave]

Landstill doesn't struggle so much because of specific matchups. It struggles more because of specific cards than it does matches. For example most people in this thread would say Zoo is a favorable match up, but I would say those people have never seen a Zoo player cast Price of Progress or Choke.

The other problem with Landstill is that it runs so many answers but not much of a proactive plan. The inherent problem with running a boatload of answers is that eventually you'll draw the wrong ones at the wrong time and your deck will self destruct. Or you can't possibly run enough answers to solve everything the metagame can throw at you.

Also, decks like Merfolk don't lose to the "1 for 1 them forever" plan.


I don't really follow your last post Rico:

Then what is control? Dreadnought, BSA, Jace 2, Elspeth, Factories, Treachery, Morphling are simply objects, cards. Every phase in Magic has had its control decks, irregardless of the cards they play. Any matchup will have a control player v.s. an aggressor, even if it is a gob v.s. Zoo matchup. It is just that usually a deck like countertop/Landstill/Dreadstill likes to assume the control role because the strategy is based around that role. It has nothing to do with riding a Jace/Elspeth/Dreadnought/BSA/Squire to victory.

Certain control decks die out over time because its specific strategy is no longer viable e.g. Dreadstill died out for some time when Pridemage was printed and became the new hot creature alongside with Grips. Landstill died out when the meta was super combo heavy and flooded with Fish.

What is a REAL control deck to you then? (I'm kinda confused)

Control is just a term we use to describe a kind of deck.

When one person wants to discuss MTG with another person, we use words like control instead of saying "well, he ran 2 Elspeth, 2 Jace, 3 Counterspells, 2 Path to Exile, a mix of Vindicate and Pernicious Deed..." or whatever. It's like when someone says they drive a truck, the point is communicated efficiently and quickly with a short word even if it's not totally descriptive of exactly what brand truck he drives.

So when this guy says he wants to play a REAL control deck, then says that the control decks in Standard aren't real control decks, I'm really confused. It's like an Affinity player saying that Goblins isn't a REAL aggro deck.

[GGoober]

The versions without Counterbalance?

Aggro Loam, Dragon Stompy, Goblins, Merfolk, Cat Sligh, Fast Zoo, Storm Combo.

There's others, but that's a long enough list already.

These are indeed the bad matchups.

But to be fair: Gobs + Fast Zoo is 50/50 and gobs is more like 60/40 postboard. And Counterbalance does nothing against Dragon STompy and Gobs.

Out of the above list however, Aggro Loam, Dragon Stompy, Cat Sligh are not commonly played, so the popular list that it boils down to are Merfolk, Storm Combo, and Zoo with Price of Progress. At the very least, my list that I tweak in my metagame HAS to take into account of Merfolks and Zoo, and 1-3 combo players. Counterbalance lists do help out in the Zoo/combo matchups but it weakens the other matchups such as Bant, GWx. Any deck packing GW usually makes Counterbalance not a worthwhile engine when considering Grips + Pridemage + counters/discard + fast clock. This is not to say that a counterbalance list will not do well, but I feel that a non-Counterbalance list trumps these GWx decks better than a Counterbalance list. It's a balance, but I'm inclined to say that Counterbalance.control has more power in the meta than one without one, but it doesn't necessarily means that it is a mistake not to play Counterbalance.

And Rico, that makes more sense now that you explained it lol.

[kiblast]

These are indeed the bad matchups.



Bad Mu's? Today I had a small tournament, 8 people for a Jace TMS. I went:

1st turn: 2-0 AggroLoam.
2nd Turn: 2-0 Storm Combo.
3rd Turn: ID with Goblins.
4th Turn: 1-1 with Zoo, not useful for T4 since he was at 3 points and could not pass to Top4 even winning, so he concedes. I lost 1st game because I mulliganed to 6, keeping an awful hand.

Semifinals: 1-1 Aggroloam, then opponent concedes after 75 minutes for 2 matches, he was tired and very hungry lol.I lost first match due to turn 1 chalice @1 and turn 2 chalice @ 0.
Final: 2-0 Storm Combo again.

Meddling Mage is THE SB card. Amazing against Loam and Storm, and very useful against plenty of decks. I was playing 3 Spell Pierce in SB, too. Ah, one last thing: in my opinion this deck should play 24lands including a singleton Celestial Colonnade, because wins games.

[GGoober]

What was your list? The most recent one you posted? I have no qualms with a singleton Colonnade. Dodges Choke, and is a win-condition not taking the slot of a non-land. Anything more than 1 or 2 will become highly debatable and possibly detrimental to the early game of the deck.


Semifinals: 1-1 Aggroloam, then opponent concedes after 75 minutes for 2 matches, he was tired and very hungry lol.I lost first match due to turn 1 chalice @1 and turn 2 chalice @ 0.

Aggro Loam is perhaps what I consider the toughest matchup. But it does't mean it's impossible. Being a deck that is dependent on their engine, if they don't draw and utilize it or if you lock them out with MM postboard they won't do well. also the matchup is in Landstill's favor by a slight amount but I still consider it a tough one simply because the games drag out for so long and they have a better game 1 against us. You're lucky he conceded because from my experience, loam v.s. landstill matchups go to time quite frequently :P

[Felidae]

I'm happy that you share my oppinion about Meddling Mage, as he's just a bomb against Combo, Lands, Dredge ,etc. etc. etc.
Also congratz on the finish, 8 player fighting for a Jace? Nice :).

[kiblast]

I'm happy that you share my oppinion about Meddling Mage, as he's just a bomb against Combo, Lands, Dredge ,etc. etc. etc.
Also congratz on the finish, 8 player fighting for a Jace? Nice :).

Yeah, only 1st place gets prize. 10 Euros x 8 people = 80 Euros, wich is the normal price for a Jace here. Pretty good deal.
Felidae, I have to thank you for suggesting it in SB. Truly amazing.


What was your list? The most recent one you posted? I have no qualms with a singleton Colonnade. Dodges Choke, and is a win-condition not taking the slot of a non-land. Anything more than 1 or 2 will become highly debatable and possibly detrimental to the early game of the deck.

Aggro Loam is perhaps what I consider the toughest matchup. But it does't mean it's impossible. Being a deck that is dependent on their engine, if they don't draw and utilize it or if you lock them out with MM postboard they won't do well. also the matchup is in Landstill's favor by a slight amount but I still consider it a tough one simply because the games drag out for so long and they have a better game 1 against us. You're lucky he conceded because from my experience, loam v.s. landstill matchups go to time quite frequently :P

I went 2-0 against Aggro Loam in the same tournament, first swiss round. I played pretty tightly and opened an amazing hand on the first game, something like Fow, Brainstorm, StP, Polluted, Flooded, Brainstorm, Crucible, there was no real struggle at all; second one I have to Fow a turn 1 Confidant and so I started with a little card disadvantage but I menaged to win thanks to Mages and EE recursion.

[Mana Drain]

I'm happy that you share my oppinion about Meddling Mage, as he's just a bomb against Combo, Lands, Dredge ,etc. etc. etc.
Also congratz on the finish, 8 player fighting for a Jace? Nice :).

Would you list what matchups you side MM in and what the the most important cards to name for each are? I get the duhs like Combo and Loam decks, but what other matchups are they used for? I was thinking of putting them in against Merfolk naming "Standstill", as I always board mine out against them.

[Felidae]

Dredge: Depends on the board state, but usually they are set on Cabal Therapy, as this protects Peacekeeper / Relics as well as taking away a sac outlet for the Bridges.
38 Lands: Loam, then EE or whatever removal they have (if you don't know then pick Intuition)
Aggro Loam: Loam, then Wish (if they use them) or Pulse/Dreams
Enchantress: Presence or Argothian , depends on the hand
UB DoomesdayEmrakul.dec: Doomesday (yeah its way to obvious)
Dreadstill (Urg): Depends on gamestate, REB , Balance or Top
Dreadstill (UWb) Balance / Top / Jace
Thopter (UWb): E.Tutor / Balance or part of the Combo
TES: Burning Wish / Infernal / IGG
Geddon Staxx: Armageddon / Ravages of War, O Ring and Crucible
UBG LS: Jace , Deed
UWx LS: depending on game state and hand
Sneackattack / SnT.dec. SnT then Sneack Attack (at least if you got the extra Hydroblast to deal with SA)
Dreamshalls: Ok now this one is again way to obvious... SnT then Halls (again Hydroblast can counter Conflux to keep them of there Wincondition)
Aluren: I guess you know it allready ;)
Reanimator:Reanimate, Exhume then SnT
Spanish Inquisition: Infernal, Belcher,Igg, Tendrils
Pox: Smallpox and Pox
Spring Tide / Solidarity: High Tide, Wish, nowaday also Time Spiral
Belcher: Wish , Belcher and Empty (again it depends on the game state)
MooswordBridge / Emrakul.Dec: SnT then Dreadnought

I'd thought about adding them against Standstill (to name Standstill or FoW), but as both Wrath and Explosiv tend tokill this guy to I kinda gave it up. Maybe he's worth testing again with Peacekeeper, at least if they start to run Echoing Truth again.

[kiblast]

What was your list? The most recent one you posted?

No. I cutted Enlightened Tutors, this is my current list:

4 Flooded Strand
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Academy ruins
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Tundra
1 Tolaria West
3 Wasteland
2 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
1 Celestial Colonnade

3 Engineered Explosives
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Spell snare
3 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Wrath of God
1 Humility
2 Path to Exile
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
2 Fact or Fiction

SB:

2 Extirpate
3 Spell Pierce
2 Ravenous Trap
3 Engineered Plague
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Meddling Mage

[Pippin]

Semifinals: 1-1 Aggroloam, then opponent concedes after 75 minutes for 2 matches, he was tired and very hungry lol.I lost first match due to turn 1 chalice @1 and turn 2 chalice @ 0.

With all due respect, but how did chalice at 0 affect in any way that game? It counters absolutely nothing.

From my experience, aggro loam is not a bad matchup for UWx landstill, but it depends on configuration of the deck. Postboard it gets easier since grave removal usually comes in, and lists that run something like cunning wish main don't even have problems in game 1.

Congrats on your finish, winning twice against storm combo as landstill is very good result.

[lorddotm]

With all due respect, but how did chalice at 0 affect in any way that game? It counters absolutely nothing.

From my experience, aggro loam is not a bad matchup for UWx landstill, but it depends on configuration of the deck. Postboard it gets easier since grave removal usually comes in, and lists that run something like cunning wish main don't even have problems in game 1.

Congrats on your finish, winning twice against storm combo as landstill is very good result.

It prevents EE from killing Chalice.

[Felidae]

It would counter Explosiv for 0 (in order to deal with Chalice), but due to the fact that we cann allways spend coloress mana for it and still set in at 0.... yeah its the wrong call.

[Tinefol]

Under Chalice at 0 and 1, you need to have at least two colorless lands to play EE @ 0. Depending on the build, Landstill generally has 4-6 colorless lands. Getting two is tough job against aggro loam.

[Felidae]

Hhm true, but I assume that those 8 lands in Kiks list might get the job done. However my first impession was indeed wrong, Chalice 0 is a fine play, even if it it still beatable with a good draw.

[kiblast]

Hhm true, but I assume that those 8 lands in Kiks list might get the job done. However my first impession was indeed wrong, Chalice 0 is a fine play, even if it it still beatable with a good draw.

It is a fine play indeed. Considering that he plays Wastelands and cycling lands, plus the deep digging power of Loam, it is easier for him to keep opponent out of certain color/colorless mana sources then for us to have two colorless in play at the same time to cast EE for 0, so he can safely develop his game.

By the way, I had a 60ish people tournament today and ended up with a rather disappointing 2-4. I realized that I can't beat Burn, wich is pretty sad, and heavy discard is really though. I am considering 4 Leyline of Sanctity in my sideboard, however playing Leylines is something I really hate (the entire ''Mull until you get one'' is ridicolous , even more ridicolous in a control deck like Landstill) and Spell pierces are not enough. What would you suggest?

[serendib]

I suggest 4X baneslayer angel. if you reach turn 6 to swing it it's gg.

[kiblast]

I suggest 4X baneslayer angel. if you reach turn 6 to swing it it's gg.

Mmmh. Serious suggestions anyone?

[Rune]

Maindeck tops + CB in sb. Makes it so that you can cut MM.

[serendib]

yes, it was serious.

you think you can kill burn with tokens and jace??? good luck !!! are you serious ???

I won games vs burn with a deck running just 4 fow, 3 counterspell, 4 esper charm and 4 baneslayer angels as the only usefulll cards in my deck vs burn.

otherwise use your leyline or COP:red .

[kiblast]

yes, it was serious.

you think you can kill burn with tokens and jace??? good luck !!! are you serious ???

I won games vs burn with a deck running just 4 fow, 3 counterspell, 4 esper charm and 4 baneslayer angels as the only usefulll cards in my deck vs burn.

otherwise use your leyline or COP:red .

Esper Charm has been discussed yet and while I like the card, it is very difficult to hit UWB on your 3rd turn, and after 3rd turn, Fof is better.Also I would never play it as a 4 of. Too mana intensive. I think reaching turn 6 against burn with only 4 Fow and 3 Counterspell is impossible.

FYI, I don't want to win against burn with tokens and jace, in fact I was looking for a suitable SB plan. Not something that hits the table on turn 5 and does something on turn 6.

[Nidd]

Esper Charm has been discussed yet and while I like the card, it is very difficult to hit UWB on your 3rd turn, and after 3rd turn, Fof is better.Also I would never play it as a 4 of. Too mana intensive. I think reaching turn 6 against burn with only 4 Fow and 3 Counterspell is impossible.

FYI, I don't want to win against burn with tokens and jace, in fact I was looking for a suitable SB plan. Not something that hits the table on turn 5 and does something on turn 6.
Leyline of Sanctity pretty much destroys burn. If that's the only MU you worry about, run 4.
It completely neuters their deck, except for their creatures, if they run any. And these should be handled by the rest of the deck pretty easily.

[LostButSeeking]

I loathe burn with every fiber of my being. That smug look a burn player gets when they beat you, that THEY beat your 60$ dual lands with nothing but their own PWNZR skills and 10c lightning bolts is something I NEVER want to see. My recommendation is Pulse of the Fields. It's nearly impossible for them to get through an active pulse of the field if you have a counterspell anywhere in the first four turns. Nidd's suggestion is also a good one.

[Hitman82]

By the way, I had a 60ish people tournament today and ended up with a rather disappointing 2-4. I realized that I can't beat Burn, wich is pretty sad, and heavy discard is really though. I am considering 4 Leyline of Sanctity in my sideboard, however playing Leylines is something I really hate (the entire ''Mull until you get one'' is ridicolous , even more ridicolous in a control deck like Landstill) and Spell pierces are not enough. What would you suggest?

Back when I played Landstill and there were Legacy events near me, I could not beat burn either. What I had to do was play Counterbalance with one Enlightened Tutor main and a C.O.P.:Red out of the board along with a mix of Blue Elemental Blast and Hydroblast. I'm not even exaggerating. The matchup is surprisingly terrible. That's all in addition to the 4 Force of Wills, 3 Counterspell, and 3 Spell Snare mainboard. However, when you board like this you're a definite favorite. Other than the C.O.P.:Red, the other cards aren't really dedicated for burn but universally good but also happen to crush Burn in conjunction with one another.


I loathe burn with every fiber of my being. That smug look a burn player gets when they beat you, that THEY beat your 60$ dual lands with nothing but their own PWNZR skills and 10c lightning bolts is something I NEVER want to see. My recommendation is Pulse of the Fields. It's nearly impossible for them to get through an active pulse of the field if you have a counterspell anywhere in the first four turns. Nidd's suggestion is also a good one.

I've tried this and it definitely wasn't good enough against an opponent with any sense. It's far too slow.

[Hanni]

Counterbalance smashes Burn.

[kiblast]

I'm going to test Leylines. Only thing that I dislike about them is that I need to mull into one, unless you want to cast them on turn 4 wich is a very slow plan.

[Barbwire]

Okay...I'm not going to be the guy that randomly jumps into a discussion and ask a completely random question....But I've read the past few pages (not all due to there being close to 230......and not all are relevant.) but here is my question, I'm having a horrible time with zoo right now and game 1 usually always ends in a lose for me, I'm playing a 4 color control build of Landstill and a decklist will be provided in a second, has anybody else already encountered this issue and has found a solution?

Here's my current MB:

Instants:

4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Brainstorm
4x Spell Snare
3x Counterspell
4x Force of Will
2x Fact or Fiction (Just added these today after reading the forum, not sure of there worth yet.)

Sorcery:
2x Life from the Loam
2x Innocent Blood

Enchantments:
4x Standstill
3x Pernicious Deed

Planeswalker:
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant (Also added today, haven't used in a real game yet.)
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands:
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2x Wasteland
3x Tropical Island
1x Scrubland
2x Underground Sea
2x Tundra
1x Island
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta

Sideboard:
2x Engineered Explosives
2x Arboria
3x Extirpate
1x Innocent Blood
1x Pernicious Deed
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Tormod's Crypt
3x Hydroblast

Thanks for looking at this and any critisism is welcome, I'm really tired of losing to zoo and other aggro :(

[ChiiMagic]

Okay...I'm not going to be the guy that randomly jumps into a discussion and ask a completely random question....But I've read the past few pages (not all due to there being close to 230......and not all are relevant.) but here is my question, I'm having a horrible time with zoo right now and game 1 usually always ends in a lose for me, I'm playing a 4 color control build of Landstill and a decklist will be provided in a second, has anybody else already encountered this issue and has found a solution?

Here's my current MB:

Instants:

4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Brainstorm
4x Spell Snare
3x Counterspell
4x Force of Will
2x Fact or Fiction (Just added these today after reading the forum, not sure of there worth yet.)

Sorcery:
2x Life from the Loam
2x Innocent Blood

Enchantments:
4x Standstill
3x Pernicious Deed

Planeswalker:
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant (Also added today, haven't used in a real game yet.)
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands:
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2x Wasteland
3x Tropical Island
1x Scrubland
2x Underground Sea
2x Tundra
1x Island
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta

Sideboard:
2x Engineered Explosives
2x Arboria
3x Extirpate
1x Innocent Blood
1x Pernicious Deed
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Tormod's Crypt
3x Hydroblast

Thanks for looking at this and any critisism is welcome, I'm really tired of losing to zoo and other aggro :(

Well I don't really have too much experience with 4 color Landstill builds save for a tournament or two, so I'm far from an expert but from what I'm looking at in your list, you shouldn't really be having a Zoo problem. With 4 STP, 2 Innocent Blood, and Pernicious Deed, along with Spell Snare and Elspeth, Zoo should not be giving you headaches. I wouldn't focus too much on tweaking that list as I would how you're playing the deck. I obviously don't know you, so I wouldn't say you're playing badly or anything, but if you say you're losing to Zoo with all those great cards against them I'd think maybe you're not approaching the matchup properly. Also, it's important to keep good hands when you're playing against Zoo because they can be pretty unforgiving. Any hand with those slow FOF and no early stabilizers like STP, Innocent Bloods, Spell Snare, need to be pitched back for a new grip. I know it took me a while to learn how to play against Zoo, and which cards were important. Maybe you just need to test the hell out of it until your matchup improves. Hope that helps.

[Barbwire]

Actually that makes alot of sense, I am still learning what a good hand to keep is or in what order to approach the hand. It may be that I'm approaching the situation wrong, thanks :)

[GGoober]

That list should beat Zoo. Like chii said, it's how you leverage your early game. An important thing about control is that you need to know the inside and outs of your deck e.g. the % chance you will draw card X or card Y. What is the potential of my hand to stabilize, answer threats before I draw card X or card Y. Which card is relevant for me in this matchup etc, which card do I need to protect to win me games etc.

Landstill's not a forgiving deck because it doesn't have cheat-wins e.g. Show and Tell/combo, neither does it have a fixed strategy. The game is seldom won with thinking "I'm going to hit him with Factories with counterspells in hand". It's always interactive and one mistake costs you.

Against Zoo, the advice I have to give you is: Think of your life total with a bare minimum of 10. If you fall to 10, you are going to be in a red zone, no matter what you think (unless you have Counterbalance or Pulse of the Fields etc). The reason why burn is a bad matchup for Landstill is without Counterbalance, the burn player only needs to invest in "R"-costing spells to whittle your life down fast while you need at least "UU" or pitching 2 cards to deal with a Lightning Bolt that might cost you the game. If your meta is burn heavy, run Countertop, or run lifegaining cards e.g. Pulse beats them if you survive to that point.

Back on topic, you have to view Zoo the same way as you view burn. It is not as bad a matchup as burn because you don't have dead cards (e.g. StP). However, in this matchup, you should not take 3/3, 2/3 lightly and let your life fall for granted. At the same time, you should not put yourself in a position where you use all your counters on creatures and end up dying to their burn. The balance is to try to snag 2 for 1s with sweepers/EE/Deeds without taking too much damage. you have to look at the board position, calculate ahead of time how much you are taking, always count how many cards they have in their hand i.e. do they have more burn/creatures? If they are not casting more dudes after you have plowed dudes, chances are they have burn. Debate if you want to counter that lightning bolt because the Fireblast/Price of Progress are the real threats.

As a safety guide, your life total can be at 2 against any aggro deck except Goblins/Merfolks/Zoo since Gobs can suddenly swing in with hasty piledrivers and Merfolks can win with a Lord of Atlantis and Zoo will just burn you to death. All matchups are different so see fit how to play them. Play and play and play. I've played this deck for 3 years now, still making mistakes, but that's how you learn. Also, just knowing your deck won't make you successful. You have to know all the decks out there, to truly get a grip of Landstill, so once in awhile, pilot another deck, learn those deck's tricks and inside-out.

Good luck!

[GGoober]

Posting my list that I am most likely to take this weekend if I convince myself not to play Dreadstalker (playtesting hasn't been too optimal for Dreadstalker. Jace kills that deck :/)

Lands: 23
1 Academy Ruins
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Celestial Colonnade
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
2 Plains
3 Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn

Removal: 9
2 EE
4 StP
3 Lightning Helix

Counters: 11
4 Counterspell
3 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will

Draw: 12
4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Standstill
2 Cunning Wish

Advantage: 6
2 Isochron Scepter
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Jace the Mindsculptor

Sideboard: 15
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Path to Exile
1 Mindbreak Trap (autolose to boseiju.scapeshift otherwise)
2 Orim's Chant
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Firespout
2 Peacekeeper
2 Negate

Blue Count: 23
Mana curve (countertop flips):
0cmc: 25
1cmc: 11
2cmc: 15
3cmc: 3
4cmc: 3
5cmc: 4


Common Postboard Analysis: (listing only relevant cards)


Gobs: -3 Counterbalance, -1 Top, -2 Cunning Wish, +1 Path, +3 Firespout, +2 Orim's Chant, +2 Peacekeeper
Removal:
2 EE
4 StP
1 Path
3 Helix
3 Firespout
1 ETutor/Chant -> Scepter

Counters:
4 Force
4 Counterspell


Merfolks: -1 Crucible, -3 Counterbalance, -3 Top, -2 Cunning Wish, +1 Path, +2 Peacekeeper, +3 Firespout, +2 Chant, +1Etutor
(yes with this setup, I am confident with 3 Standstills against Merfolks)
Removal:
2 EE
4 StP
1 Path
3 Helix
3 Firespout
2 Peacekeeper
1 ETutor/Chant -> Scepter

Counters:
4 Force
4 Counterspell


Zoo: -2 Cunning Wish, -1 Crucible, -1 Force, +3 Relic, +1 Path
Removal:
2 EE
4 StP
1 Path
3 Helix
1 ETutor/Chant -> Scepter
3 Relic (slowing down damage)

Counters:
4 Force
4 Counterspell
3 Counterbalance

Enchantress/combo/control/stax: -4 StP, +2 Negate, +2 Chant, +1 Etutor
updating the rest after lunch
Removal:
2 EE
3 Helix (can be boarded out for relic if needed)

Counters:
4 Force
4 Counterspell
3 Counterbalance
2 Negate
2 Chant
1 ETutor

I'm not too sold on Peacekeeper post Vengevine, but she is so brutal against Merfolks and Emrakul/Progenitals that I'm probably keeping her inside. She's quite decent against GWx decks, since you can protect her with counterbalance or counters against their swords and removals.

[kiblast]

aren't you a bit too light on 3cc? You already know how this cc is full of dangerous spells in legacy: Vindicate, Maestrom pulse, KotR just to name a few. 3rd wish maybe?

[GGoober]

Ki, yes that is the only iffyness that I've been bugged for hours. 3 cmc is a tad too little to make CB worthwhile MD. I thought about running 3 Top and CB in the sideboard and playing more Landstill with Tops MD and bring in CB when needed, but when weighing out, CB improves more matchup and is less dead MB than SB.

3 years back, this would have been a golden ratio of cmc for Countertop flips: 11:15:3 but in today's meta, 3cmc is becoming ever more and more important. However, I feel that Landstill is capable of fighting things at the 3cmc cost by way of the deck i.e. if you survived to turn 3, a lot of your spells become relevant e.g. Counterspell.

Regardless, the dangerous 3cmc that are popularly played in the meta can be summarized below:

Knight of the Reliquary (StP/Path)
Vindicate (Not too commonly played, Counterspell v.s. Vindicate is a fair statement)
Vendilion Clique (this is quite gg in response to my standstill lol)
Show and Tell (this is problematic)
Trinisphere (this is problematic, not too commonly played)
Enchantress.dec (this is problematic, a bad matchup)
Crucible of Worlds (problematic but not popularly played)
Merfolk Lords (SB firespout, Peacekeeper, Helix, StP etc)
Doomsday (not popularly played)
Krosan Grip (against my list, but this is postboard and my postboard 3cmc spells are increased)

My only concern is Show and Tell and Enchantress.dec. Any 3cmc creatures are dealt with removal. one way I can deal with the problem in my list is run 3 EE to catch the 3cmc that slip past. I am primarily playing CBTop for 0-2cmc spells, I am not too worried about 3cmc spells. The list of spells I have to worry from 0-2cmc are much larger and more relevant than the list mentioned above, not to mention this is my honest opinion of Legacy (everything is usually decided by turn 2, in terms of tempo development etc. I feel that by turn 2, the rough state of the game is decided, whether you have played something relevant that is going through or generating advantage, or if the control deck has secured some board position on turn 2. It's true you can recover past turn 2, but I feel majority of matches depend heavily on turn 2-3. In this manner, Counterbalance sucks because it sets up a lock past turn 3 in most situations, but counterbalance decks don't necessarily suck because they have other elements to control the early game).

Anyway, back to the list, is my analysis somewhat convincing? I do not need people to convince me it blows etc, but what I want to know is that after boarding, does my new postboard deck look capable enough to have more than a 50/50 matchup against the said deck? I'm personally convince the choice of SB and MD gives a good balance to skew postboard games to more than 50/50 for the matchups listed above.

On Helix: I know this is card talked about and not explored, but IMO I think it is quite relevant with the potential "old" meta of tribal/Zoo/Bant. Fire//Ice is another good option but personally I don't like it. I feel that not having a 1-1 spell against bulk of Zoo's creatures or Lorded' Merfolks is going to cost some games where they are needed. Helix can hit everything except for a Goyf/Knight/RWM (RWM is not a threat). It hits Gobs, Merfolks, Lorded Merfolksx1/, 2/3 Goyf, Kird Ape/Loam Lion, Nacatl, Lavamancer, Bob, Elves, 3/3 KotR. IMO 3 damage is very important over 2 damage on Fire. Chii will think otherwise but this is my opinion. fire//Ice wins on a scepter but so does Helix, putting you many turns ahead. You may ask why not Bolt at 1cmc, and the main reason is Helix does 2 things: stabilize and bolts. The RW casting cost isn't an argument against Helix because R is the off-color. In UW landstill, that W may as well be irrelevant, so the only issue becomes is a 2cmc burn better than a 1cmc bolt? IMO yes because Helix squeezes 2 effects in one card. But this is a testing phase. I feel that the ability to stabilize and remove threats, while being completely broken with a scepter is a card I want to test. At the very least, it's a 2cmc spell, not a 3cmc spell, which means that I can catch a lot of plays on turn 2 EOT, and not affecting my tempo as much as playing something more expensive.

I actually want to cut the wishes, but they give me the option to grab a Chant if I'm losing, and most importantly up the blue count to a comfortable 23 since I'm low on blue count by playing Helix.

[Rico Suave]

No, you're wrong about Merfolk. Reactive plans just do not beat Merfolk, even if you think Peacekeeper is the bees knees. If you want to beat decks like Merfolk, you *must* have a proactive, faster game plan than the one they are presenting. Sitting back and hoping to remove all their threats is a losing plan.

[Barbwire]

I see peacekeepers being ran in alot of sideboards..are they really that useful? seems to me they'll catch the first spot removal the opponent draws.
(My thought process is due to the incredible amount of zoo metagame in my area....local legacy tourny's end up being 60-75% zoo.)

Also, in response to Rico, I agree and disagree with your statement. The fact of the matter is the speed in which a good pilot, behind a merfolk or other aggro deck, puts a threat on the board is the same almost every game. That is the consistancy of the deck, as a control player it is not the task to keep the speed of the opposing player matched, just keep the speed in check and controlable. It's not a matter of removing all there threats, just the ones that matter, the ones that in late game the control deck will have a problem with after the control deck shoots for its win con.

[Mana Drain]

Barbwire, you only SB in PKs against decks with no removal (Merfolk, Dredge, SnT, etc.). You don't SB them in against Zoo, Goblins, etc. because those decks all pack answers to the PK.

I like the list Metalwalker, but I feel it needs moar REB/Pyroblast. They're just too good not to play, strengthening the Merfolk, Mirror, CB, and Combo matchups. Also, Pierce over Negate maybe? I've found that the extra mana is not worth the hard counter against decks where speed is most important. Good luck at your tournament!

[Rico Suave]

It's not a matter of removing all there threats, just the ones that matter, the ones that in late game the control deck will have a problem with after the control deck shoots for its win con.

That's the entire point, all of them matter due to the way in which Landstill wants to win.

[Barbwire]

Agreed, they all matter but only to a certain point.
In my case for instance, a T1 Nacatl is a pain, but the recursion of Factories provide me with mid to late game counter measures where as a 3/4 4/5 goyf needs immediate attention.

[Tom T]

Hey guys!

As a beginning Lanstill player I've been reading this thread for a while. As I read some questions popped up which I hope you can help me with.
1. On sites like Deckcheck.org there are Lanstill lists similar to the one below, but this thread seems to vary a lot with lists. This is quite confusing: why would you all go in different directions while the 'top8-lists' from deckcheck all look almost the same?

Furthermore, the primer doesn't have a matchup-analysis.
2. I wondered which decks UW(x) Landstill was good against?
3. What strategy should the Lanstill player pull of against Zoo, Goblins, Merfolk, AggroControl (as in New Horizons and Bant Control)

I'm sorry for my ignorance on the deck, but hope some of you can help me out.
Thanks in advance.


UWb Landstill by Michael Danis
Instants (19):
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Brainstorm

4x Force of Will
4x Counterspell
3x Spell Snare

Sorcery's (2):
2x Wrath of God

Enchantments and Artifacts (11):
4x Standstill
3x Engineered Explosives
2x Humility
2x Sensei's Divining Top

Planeswalker (5):
2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands (23):
2x Underground Sea
4x Tundra
2x Island
2x Plains
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Flooded Strand
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Glacial Fortress

Sideboard:
1x Ajani Goldmane
4x Leyline of Sanctity
3x Extirpate
3x Meddling Mage
4x Peacekeeper

[Rico Suave]

Agreed, they all matter but only to a certain point.
In my case for instance, a T1 Nacatl is a pain, but the recursion of Factories provide me with mid to late game counter measures where as a 3/4 4/5 goyf needs immediate attention.

Maybe I'm not being clear.

I am saying that this approach is a losing strategy against Merfolk, which also does not run Nacatl or in most cases Goyf either. It seems you might be thinking of something else.

[Barbwire]

Was interperting your point as an aggro front in general and just using Merfolk as an example..But it appears your specifically talking fish

[GGoober]

No, you're wrong about Merfolk. Reactive plans just do not beat Merfolk, even if you think Peacekeeper is the bees knees. If you want to beat decks like Merfolk, you *must* have a proactive, faster game plan than the one they are presenting. Sitting back and hoping to remove all their threats is a losing plan.

Rico, I 100% agree with this, maybe you are misinterpreing what I mean by Peacekeeper/Jace against Merfolks etc. Why do I 100% agree with you? Because that's how my games v.s. Merfolks went. Everytime I think I can fool around by dragging a turn, I end up being in a bad position. Merfolk is a deck where they are constantly putting out creatures (if they have a vial you're dead), and at every point, they can utilize standstill more than any deck to keep the pressure going.

I do not disagree with this statement at all, but in my experience, Scepterstill has one benefit that regular landstill lists don't. Merfolk just can't deal with Scepter if it sticks. If they run Echoing Truth, then too bad, but in most cases, ET gets countered and they lose to Scepter. Out of many games I played against Merfolks, I lost 50-60% of them because of the "reactive" gameplan you're talking about i.e. slowrolling and not wanting to win fast, and it is this very reason why Dreadstill has an edge against Merfolks since they can just go Stifle Nought counter enough disruption and win since Merfolks cannot deal with it. However, everytime Scepter imprints a removal, I have won about 80-90% of those games because I am netting 1 more card a turn with Scepter if they are playing a creature out a turn. Being Landstill has its disability in this respect, but the list I propose should be stronger than previous iterations I was running (UWb with EPlague which is too slow against Merfolks but awesome against Gobs. Not that UWb Scepterstill was a bad list, it was good in a Vengevine meta with Extirpates and is better against GWx decks but I think UWr is now argubly quite superior with the loss of Vengevines).

The recent matchups against Merfolks, I have been watching this incident on not letting my guard down, and apply pressure and try to win asap if possible (although that's quite oxymoronic for a Landstill deck to say 'win ASAP' lol), but the gameplay changes against Merfolks. Similarly, Gobs is a similar behavior. They don't run Counters and standstill, which somewhat helps, but if they chain Ringleaders or resolve one, chances are you are going to lose (Landstill has a much stronger gob matchup than Dreadstill though so the play decisions differ a little here e.g. Dreadstill can no longer go pro-active agaisnt gobs in most situations, and would have to be careful of having a plan B in case nought gets bounced/edicted)

@Mana Drain: Let me know what I can cut for 2 Jap FBB REBs. I know they're awesome, I should even have 1 in my sideboard since I'm running wish and could use a singleton-redundancy-SB, but so far I'm not sure which cards to cut to support REBs. Well, I could cut a Mindbreak Trap, but for my meta no way. Losing to Scapeshift is like losing to Primeval Titan in Legacy. I hate it.

I don't run Pierce because of 2x Chant in the SB. These effectively act as a Pierce or stronger (Chant in response to ritual or Burning Wish is almost equivalent to countering all spells on the stack). The only problem is it doesn't stop Duress which Pierce does. I run 2x Negate to have a total of 6 hard counters against the non-aggro decks. 6 hard counters also increases the chance on getting imprinted on Scepter, which then says they lose. While they are digging to find removal against Scepter, Countertop comes online, or I have enough counters in hand that it won't matter. I used to run 3 Negate 1 chant, although I think the 2-2 split is better since Chants are more useful in more matchups than Negates.

[Hanni]

Shackles is pretty savage against Merfolk, if you have enough Swords and Paths to get that far.

[GGoober]

@tom T: Your list is a classic 4cmc gas-list. Nothing wrong with it. And looks solid. To answer your question:

1. On sites like Deckcheck.org there are Lanstill lists similar to the one below, but this thread seems to vary a lot with lists. This is quite confusing: why would you all go in different directions while the 'top8-lists' from deckcheck all look almost the same?

Because Landstill is a metagame control deck. One does not pilot the 'best' Landstill list because there is non. In fact, a 'standard' Landstill list is either:
1) Have good matchups against decks x,y while losing horribly to other decks (e.g. classic Landstill beats aggro then dies to burn/combo)
2) Have good matchups across everything so becoming very tough to pilot correctly (e.g. IMO Countertop Landstill/Hanni's List, Chii's Scepterstill list). These are the non-normal non-classic lists that have quite a different selection of card choices.

Inherently, all these forms and choices are decisions made in response to the metagame. If there's more tribal around, then UWr Landstill is the better deck with REBs against Merfolks, Firespout killing a ton of crap. UWb is solid against slower Countertop meta with Bantish decks since UWr does nothing here (red does nothing big against these decks). If there's a ton of combo/burn, then the classic list just fails hard i.e. I remember trying so hard to beat burn, and I came to the conclusion it was about countering all burn, and drawing Pulse of the Fields. But instead of playing a classic list, if you just tweak some cards to incorporate Countertop it becomes much easier.

Now, if you disagree with my statement, just take a look at the very nature of Landstill. It has no fixed win-condition/gameplan. We say we win with Jace 2. But any deck can win with Jace 2. We beat with Factories, but so does Dreadstill. The deal with Landstill is: There's no fixed gameplan, it's inherently a control deck, and a control deck only does its best when metagamed. Unlike Dreadstill or Countertop, these decks actually have a gameplan e.g. winning with Dreadnought, or locking with Countertop. That's the reason why there's no universal best landstill list. In the same light, there's no universal best Dreadstill list, or Zoo list. It's all tweaked, but Landstill has a much higher degree of freedom when it comes to deck design, which explains the huge variants of cards played in various top8s, anything from Fact or Fiction, Decree, Crucible, Elspeth, Ajani, Jace 2, Eternal Dragons, Counterbalance, Scepter, etc



Furthermore, the primer doesn't have a matchup-analysis.
2. I wondered which decks UW(x) Landstill was good against?
Classic Landstill (e.g. your list): Aggro, Goblins, Bant, Countertop, Stax/Stompy (we have higher basic count and more lands compared against other control decks that rely on less basic/lands/more lower-cmc spells)

50/50 matchups: Zoo, Enchantress (this one is tough), combo
<50/50 matchups: Burn, Aggro Loam (this could be 50/50, depends if they draw the nuts)


3. What strategy should the Lanstill player pull of against Zoo, Goblins, Merfolk, AggroControl (as in New Horizons and Bant Control)

In that meta, UWr list would do well. Firespout kills Gobs/Merfolks. Run no less than 8 removal spell + 2-3 EEs, and things should be easy from there. Landstill inherently beats Aggro-control, that's its strength. However, against such a meta, I would not drop below 4 basics because all of these decks run either Wasteland or Price of Progress. Against Zoo/Gobs/Merfolk keep the board under control, EE the Vials, and stick a Planeswalker, against Bantish decks, play around Daze/Stifle, that way you don't lose tempo and you out-tempo them when they waste their turns holding back creatures. When they finally drop creatures, you have mana open to initiate counterspell/removal and you should win the counterwar since they have tapped out to play threats so you have more mana advantage. If that fails, you untap and play another removal spell or a Planeswalker that buys cards/time over turns.

[Mana Drain]

I personally would take out the Mindbreak Trap and 1 Orim's Chant for the 2 REB. I don't think you should be worring about Scapeshift.dec much UNLESS it's a significant metagame presence (like, multiple decks are playing the Scapeshift combo). Besides that, it's going to take 7 mana total to Wish for and cast MBT against a deck that plays Wastelands and possibly Ports. I think you should just ignore the matchup and hope to kill it with the GY hate/Chant lock. Also, while it's decent against combo, you've got CB, Negates, Counterspells, FoW, Jace, Wish for gas, and now REB to stop the cantrips. I think you'll be okay unless you REALLY are worried about combo.

-1 Chants because you'll still have the ability to Wish for it to Chant-lock people with Scepter, and you'll still be able to SB it in/Wish for it against Combo. Again, unless Combo is a significant metagame presence, I think you'll be fine with just 1 Chant.

I disagree with running the Negates over Pierce, but I understand your logic on them regardless. If you don't want to remove the Chant and MBT, then keep the board the way it is. There arent' any other reasonable cards to remove for REB other than Negates, which serve a similar, but less-focused purpose and are useful in more matchups. You do run Wish, so SB space is certainly at a premium.

[ChiiMagic]

Haha dude, why are people playing Scapeshift in your meta? I wouldn't worry about that at all, cut the Mindbreak Trap and just be more careful with your Wastelands. If you know the goof packing Scapeshifts is also packing Boseiju in a format mandated by Wastelands then make him pay for it. Sit on those Wastelands until you can tag Boseiju and counter those shitty Scapeshifts like you would any other garbage spell.

[GGoober]

The deck is 'garbage' but it's so garbage that I cannot beat it D:

It's our playgroup, we always have a Scapeshift player, and as funny as it sounds, it usually beats any deck that isn't combo. Against aggro it gets the Tabernacle and wastelock plan, against control it goes for Boseiju and you can't do anything about it (he only gets Boseiju out when he goes off usually). But the last time I did lock out the combo with Scepterchant since he never got to play Scapeshift so I guess I'll focus on that strategy.

I'll cut MBT and possibly another slot to make room for 2 REBs. I'll most likely be playing this list this weekend. I have all these cool decks that I want to try out (Blue stompy/affinity and Dreadstalker and Elves) but I really hate being on the aggression and really miss plowing dudes and countering spells lol.

[GGoober]

So this has been my mentality post-Survival ban:
1) I hate WotC for banning the only cool green card in MTG
2) metagames of Zoo/Gobs/Merfolks are INEVITABLE. With Survvial gone, Countertop resurges (combo in check by this as well), causing Merfolks to come in for free wins, causing Zoo and Gobs to convert to seafood diet, causing Gobs to have a tough time with Zoo, causing Zoo to have a tough time with Countertop, causing Countertop to be swimming with fishes and so on.
3) I have Gobs and Merfolks built so I was thinking which is the best deck of these to play (IMO Zoo is since it keeps both Gobs/Merfolks in check and can sometime steal wins against Countertop), but I thought to myself, why not play control that has a tough time with these matchups, but in general is favored except Merfolks. But once you tweak a list that can have not an abysmmal matchup against Merfolks, I think control is worth playing in such a meta. So with beating Merfolks primarily in mind,

The list I played this weekend:

Lands: 23
1 Academy Ruins
4 Factories
4 Strands
2 Tarns
1 Mesa
1 Plains
3 Islands
3 Tundras
3 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau

Draw/Filter: 12
4 Brainstorm
3 Top
3 Standstill
2 Cunning Wish

Removal: 11
2 EE
4 StP
3 Lightning Helix
2 Firespout

Counters: 10
3 Counterbalance
3 Counterspell
4 FoW

Wins: 5
2 Isochron Scepter
3 Jace

SB:
1 Path
1 ETutor
1 REB
1 BEB
3 Negate
2 Chants
1 Firespout
1 EE
1 Shackles
3 Relic

Not an exciting tournament due to a small showup (16 players) and the fact I got a bye round 2 (I actually wanted to play magic and playtest instead of trying to win).

Regardless, my matchups were: Mono-U Merfolks, Bye, 'Red Gate', UW Merfolks with Arbiter.

Brief notes (just to highlight the performance of the list iteself).

Match 1 Merfolks: He leads off with Vial which I force. I stabilized at 10 after a Firespout but he proceeds to draw into more threats. The main note I took down was: Mutavault is what makes Merfolks so good. Despite the fact that the deck has all these lords and coralhelm, Mutavault is quite key to the deck's success and aggression IMO. I missed having 2 wastelands.

Game 2 I kept a really strong hand of 2 EE, this is where I make the mistake of trying to catch x-1 with my EE. He leads off with Cursecatcher and then a mutavault silvergill next turn. My hand was 1 Helix, 2 EE. I decide that I can save my EE to sweep later since he revealed a Coralhelm with Silvergill. Now, since he did not draw his Island, he swung for 5 with Silvergill, Cursecatcher and Mutavault. This was unexpected for me since I was anticipating Coralhelm so I can sweep 2 permanents next turn. So I took an extra 5 damage. I decide that he will play Coralhelm next turn again, so I did not EE away his Silvergill. He did not draw Island again, and instead wastes my red so my Helix is now dead in hand. He comes in with the same 5. I decided not to Helix the Adept to catch another 2-1 next turn with EE while saving Helix on his Mutavault (since I play no wastelands). In the end, he never drew that 2nd Island, and I took 6 points of extra damage as a result of anticipating and trying to be greedy with my EE. But on hindsigh, it didn't seem right to spend 4 mana on EE just to kill 1 Adept. Once again, Mutavault is really really good. And Merfolks is really really good. The game scorned me because I drew 3 EEs before I finally died. Looking back, I think I played really bad tying to do my x-1 strategy while thinking that I will be fine, stabilizing. I deserved this lost, but at the time, I thiink my reasons were still somewhat justified.

Match 2: Bye, sad face.


Match 3: Red Gate with Bob, Hymn, Burn, Magus of the Moon, Demigods, Sinkhole, Wastelands
IMO this is not too favorable a matchup. Landstill doesnt like Moon, Discard, Wastelands, Sinkhole, and a resolved Bob, so here we go!
Game 1: He doesn't have enough discard but plays dudes. I have Firespout in hand. He goes Lavamancer, Magus. I willingly take beats because unlike Merfolks, he doesn't run counters so I can let him overextend without me being afraid. He believes he has me locked under Moon and drops Bob, so I untap and Firespout away Magus, Bob, Lavamancer. From there he tried to recover but I stuck a Counterspell on an Isochron FTW to lock him out while Jace kills him

Game 2: Resolved Jace and fatesealed him away.

Match 4: UW Merfolks with Arbiter
Game 1: We play the same Merfolks v.s. control game. I Firespout away his dudes and was at 10 life. Being Merfolks, he eventually ended up with a board of 2 Arbiters, 2 Cursecatcher and a Mutavault. I have Jace out and miscounted the maths (i.e. missing 1 mana to activate 2nd Factory to block, I facepalm myself 3 times), Jace dies, but I have EE in hand with Ruins in play so he has to swing in to put on the pressure but my two factories will be 3/3s to kill off 2 Arbiters and EE will lock him out (I had double FoW 2 blue cards in hand as well).

Here comes the part where I lose to 'Jedi-mind' tricks and myself for not knowing very basic magic rules.
He says "Declaring attackers", I said "Okay". He says "Moving to blocking phase", I say "Yeah sure" (I knew he was trying to trick me into not activating my Factories so I thought to myself I will go onto blocker phase and activate my factories to block him, just to make sure everything was correct). And we moved onto blocking phase, and I lose because according to the rules of the game, once you enter the blocking phase, you have to assign blockers immediately, and it is too late to activate your manlands to block. He swings for 10 and I lose even though it was quite obvious that the play was to block two 2/2s with your 3/3 factories.

Game 2: I kept an insanely strong hand: 2 Helix, 1 EE, 1 Firespout. I don't think I can lose this one. He resolves Arbiter, and Arbiter no. 2. I have a Fetchland and I cracked paying 2 for the Arbiter and he poitned out there's 2 in play. I facepalm again (I was getting all worked up in game 1 so I was rageplaying game 2 too quickly lol). I ended up stabilizing. I go for Helix on a stick, he fows. I keep the board under control with my 2nd Helix and StP: I'm at 4, he swings in for 4, I helix Reejery, climb back to 5, and then Brainstorm into another Helix and recurred Scepter with Ruins. We went to time, so Helix on a stick starts pinging him while his 2 Merfolks try to race Helix. I won!

So we were both 2-1-0 and we drew and ended up being 2-1-1, missing top 4 :P

PROS:
- I'm quite sold on Helix. I need more testing though, the lifegain is very relevant although it might not be if a list is designed in another manner
- 3 Jace felt right. I miss 2 Jace 2 Elspeth builds since I win games faster, but 3 Jace feels that I am in control most of the time. I don't have much experience with 3 Jace.control but I think I need to rework the card choices to see how they play in with each other.
- Top was great all the time. I think it's hard for me to drop below 2 Top in any control build.
- For the first time in my life, my sideboard flowed. Well I only played against Merfolks, but sideboarding was not difficult.
- And as always, Scepter just wins games. Scepter + Helix means that not only can you hit Lord'd tribaldudes, but you can aim them at 2/3, 3/3 Zoo dudes, or hit them if you pair it up with Relic. More importantly, 3 damage to planeswalker/players grants another win condition and the lifegain makes it seem like you're playing Exalted Angel against aggro.

CONS:
- Counterbalance was weak this weekend but that's simply because of the matchups: 2 Merfolks
- Wish was usually pitched to FoW or I had no need to use it
- I think Firespout isn't optimal(sorry to those who like it). Here's my reasoning. Firespout IMO only shines against tribal. It's quite decent against Zoo but is not reliable and is still a little slow. So if the main reason is used against tribal, I still think it's a weak card. Any competent tribal player will not overextend unless he's pressured to win in 1-2 turns (which is oxymoronic against a control deck since you are not pressured to win fast unless it's dreadstill). When a Goblin player keeps a Ringleader/Matron in hand and a Merfolk continues to draw gas and Mutavaults, Firespout acts as a quick answer to the current board position. It does not stop the future board position from developing. I'm not saying Firespout is bad against tribal, but I feel that in control lists that don't intend to win fast e.g. non-Dreadstill and non-combo/control lists, then Firespout will be a temporarily answer for the player to draw and try to establish board control. In most cases, this is not too difficult, but against competent opponents who know how to play against sweepers, tapping out to play a Firespout with them following up with Ringleader/Adept rebuilds their board again. There's a reason why I liked Punishing Fire without thinking too much about it. PFires is a card that is a recurring engine that continues to keep the board under control until answered. For the same reason, this is my love for Scepter because Scepter just locks games out with a Counterspell/StP (let's not bring in Chants).

Anyway, from playing, I think the main thing I'm goign to do is to take out the Counterbalances. I really enjoyed having them in matchups like Burn, combo, Loam but at the moment these decks aren't too popularly played (at least in my meta). I think my new list would look something like:

Lands: 23
1 Academy Ruins
2 Wasteland (hate mutavault)
4 Factories
4 Strands
2 Tarns
1 Plains
2 Islands
3 Tundras
3 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau

Draw/Filter: 11
4 Brainstorm
2 Top
3 Standstill
2 Cunning Wish (or the other option is cut these 2, add 1 ETutor MD + 4th Counterspell and I prefer this but blue count will be down to 20 and I lose the ability to wish for REB/BEB/Path/Chant/Negate which is still valuable IMO)

Removal: 11
3 EE
4 StP
3 Lightning Helix
1 Vedalken Shackles

Counters: 10
3 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell
4 FoW

Wins: 6
2 Isochron Scepter
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Jace

SB:
1 Path
1 ETutor
1 REB
1 BEB
3 Negate
2 Chants
3 Relic
3 Firespout (in the board makes much more sense IMO but these could be other slots e.g. Path although I'm not a fan of Path in control unless it's a last resort. I had to play FSpouts in the main for last week to have four 3cmc spells to flip for Counterbalance. I think Shackles main is still a lot stronger since it's as potent if not more powerful than Firespout when the board is slightly in control. firespout is definitely great when the board is out of control, but I rather always be in a slightly-uncontrolled board position than an out-of-control board position since the risks for the latter are higher and I'm fairly risk-averse when it comes to playing control and the philosophy to that is because control does not cheat as much as non-control decks so by being risk-avid, you tend to lose games because those decks can just draw something to blow you out. Once again, this depends on the control build, e.g. Dreadstill can afford to be less risk-averse because they can just go Stiflenought turn 2 on many decks and win games. Sometimes I wonder why I don't play that deck despite having all the pieces :P)

[kiblast]

What do you think of the new manland from MBS? Inkmoth nexus could provide a nice alternative win condition, even better if paired with Elspeth.

[Felidae]

For anyone who's to lazy to look the card up:

Land Rare
{T}: Add 1 to your mana pool.
1: Inkmoth Nexus becomes a 1/1 Blinkmoth artifact creature with flying and infect until end of turn. It's still a land.

Doesn't look to promising to me, infect is a bad mechanic if your deck isn't build around it + this card is weak in the defense.

[kiblast]

For anyone who's to lazy to look the card up:

Land Rare
{T}: Add 1 to your mana pool.
1: Inkmoth Nexus becomes a 1/1 Blinkmoth artifact creature with flying and infect until end of turn. It's still a land.

Doesn't look to promising to me, infect is a bad mechanic if your deck isn't build around it + this card is weak in the defense.

While testing, I noticed that it doesn't work well with Humility, as it doesn't take advantage of this global enchantment as Mishra's factory does. Maybe if the build is more concentrated on lands as a win condition, this land would provide a nice addition. I love it in conjuction with Elspeth for a very fast clock (3 turns, with no downsides from lifegain etc...)

On a different note,I've been testing a slightly tweaked version of the UWg Landstill piloted by Wafo-Tapa last year at the second place at the legacy event of Bazaar of Moxen (pretty much a classic Landstill list but without Wastelands, without Crucible and without Academy ruins). For your reference, this is the list I'm running: (with B splash instead of G splash):

//Lands
4x Flooded Strand (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Flooded+Strand)
3x Island (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Island)
3x Tundra (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Tundra)
4x Polluted Delta (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Polluted+Delta)
3x Plains (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Plains)
2x Underground Sea (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Underground+Sea)
4x Mishra's Factory (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Mishra%27s+Factory)

//Spells
3x Engineered Explosives (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Engineered+Explosives)
4x Swords to Plowshares (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Swords+to+Plowshares)
3x Spell Snare (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Spell+Snare)
4x Standstill (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Standstill)
4x Brainstorm (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Brainstorm)
4x Force of Will (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Force+of+Will)
4x Counterspell (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Counterspell)
1x Humility (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Humility)
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Jace%2C+the+Mind+Sculptor)
2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Elspeth%2C+Knight-Errant)
2x Wrath of God (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Wrath+of+God)
2x Fact or Fiction (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Fact+or+Fiction)
1x Story Circle (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Story+Circle)

//Sideboard
2x Tormod's Crypt (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Tormod%27s+Crypt)
3x Meddling Mage (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Meddling+Mage)
3x Engineered Plague (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Engineered+Plague)
3x Extirpate (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Extirpate)
4x Leyline of Sanctity (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Leyline+of+Sanctity)

It's amazing how an UWx shell can be tweaked and changed to an infinity of versions. Wafo-Tapa's version ran 2 Tops maindeck where I'm running 2 Fact or Fiction. I think that the raw power fo FoF should not be overlooked. After all, we are probably the best tuned deck to survive early game. After early game, let's say turn 4+, I don't want to topdeck good. I want to dig for bombs. I want my 4cc's hit the table. So i prefer Fof, wich also is good to find silver bullets such as Humility and Story Circle. I'm testing singleton Circle instead of an Humility and I'm satisfied with it. The only thing that I can complain about is that it doesn't have built in pro-qasali as Humility has. But having a maindeck out (even if singleton) to decks playing loads of Burn is a great thing. It is also golden against Goblins, maybe even better than Humility; and let me explain why:after you dropped Humility, the goblin player is going to drop 1/1's all the turns, while you need to find a finisher or a sweeper to keep the control of the game state. And you need it fastly, because in my eperience,I have lost games rushed by a horde of 1/1's while I was drawing only Counterspells and Standstills. Circle gives you an out in this rare case. Also is 3cc, wich is good against any Tribal deck packing land denial.

[Iron Buddha]

To those of you running Wrath of God: What do you think is the right number for WoG-effects?
3 WoG
2 WoG + 1 Humility
3 WoG + 1 Humility
(However, I'm very sure that I want only one Humility, because I fear Krosan grip too much.)

[kiblast]

To those of you running Wrath of God: What do you think is the right number for WoG-effects?
3 WoG
2 WoG + 1 Humility
3 WoG + 1 Humility
(However, I'm very sure that I want only one Humility, because I fear Krosan grip too much.)

I'm for 2 WoG + 1 Humility, although 3 Wog can be considered too. 3 Wog + 1 Humility seems overkill.

[GGoober]

Not that this will be played, but I think it is fairly decent as a Wish target:

White Sun's Zenith XWWW
Instant
Put X 2/2 Cat creature tokens onto the battlefield. Shuffle White Sun's Zenith into its owner's library.

The WWW is a problem, but aside from not drawing a card, this puts out quite a lot of P/T on the board for its mana cost at instant speed. I'm thinking of testing it in a Wishbuild. Still not a good card IMO to squeeze inside a tight 15 SB, but it's borderline playable. The question becomes: Does Landstill need a Wishable win-condition? Will that speed up games? Is this card flexible enough as both win-con/defense to justify its inclusion in the 15?

EDIT: It also shuffles back for future use (and Landstill gets a thinned library late-game usually :D)

[The Treefolk Master]

If I ever try it in a tournament, I'm pretty sure I'll get a game loss due to forgetting to take it out of the deck.

Not really sure on what verdict to give, seems somewhat weak compared to other finishers, and I don't run wish anyway, so I don't think it will see play.

[Iron Buddha]

As a mainboard card it's obviously really bad, I don't even need to test it (just compare it with Decree of Justice), but a wishable win-con is truly amazing...

[Felidae]

As you mentioned WWW kinda sucks plus we can't do cool tricks with Standstill. Also if playing Cunning Wish there are only a few amount of situations where I'd pick this card over pate, pulse etc.

Dunno if it still fits Landstill but I played a very odd list at my local tourney today:
3 Tundra (not owning a 4th copy of Tundra sucks)
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Scrubland
1 Steam Venst (not owning Volcanincs sucks also :( )
4 Strand
1 Delta
4 Mishra
5 Island
2 Plains

4 Brainstorm
4 Fow
3 Snare
3 Counterspell
3 Counterbalance
2 Top
4 StP
4 Standstill
3 DoJ
2 Elspeth
2 ORing
1 E.Tutor
3 Explosiv
1 Humility

Side
3 Meddling Mage
2 Path
2 Wrath
2 Negate
3 Hydroblast
2 Relic
1 Crypt

So this deck was tuned to beat our local meta, nothing more nothing less.
R1: GBW Junk
G1: Turn 1 Top, Turn 2 Balance, Turn 4 Elspeth turn 5 scoop
G2: This one was funny: His Hymn gets 2 lands, then he Vindicates both of my Islands and has 2 Wastelands in play for Mishra and Tundra. Sad Panda is sad.
G3:The usual stuff, I sword some of his guys, play some counter and cycle 2 Decrees for the win.

R2:UBR Dreadstill
G1: He gets Top while I get the Balance, his Noughts fall right into my removal and Elspeth won once more.
G2:His first Nought meets an O Ring, his second Path and his 3rd Explosiv, while I beat him down with tokens in the mean time.

R3: Zoo
G1: I can trade Explosiv 3 -1 and win via flying Mishras
G2:He burns me out on turn 5
G3: This was a very long game, as he got Libary, Goyf and Teeg while I got 2 Mishras , some tokens and an incredible amount of lands. At the end i got to path his Teed, counter the Fireblast, pop Explosiv for the board, drop Elspeth and keep drawing Forces for the next Turns. I did actually survive 5 turns on 1 life against a libary, sworting your own Mishras still does the trick.

R4: UWB Countertop Walker (sort of)
G1: His Balance meets my Snare while I'm able to stick my own into play, the rest is the usual control mirror stuff, oh and countering Elspeth with DoJ is awesome.
G2: My Deck shows that it really loves me, as I got everything that I needed to do the following: Drop Meddling Mage, counter Shackles ,O Ring Elspeth and blow away his Explosiv for 3 while he had only 1 Mana available.

4-0 feels pretty good, as I didn't thought that the deck would have any chances at all.

so long

cheers

[GGoober]

Felidae, what are your secrets to playing Landstill with 22 lands??

Seriously, I play 24 lands and I still get land-screwed every once in awhile (4 basics). Your list is interesting but I can see the reasons for Orings etc. They're actually really decent for an easy to cast 2W. They're another answer to Emrakul decks without being terrible in game 1 (most people don't have enchantment hate MD game 1).

I would personally cut the 3rd DoJ for the 3rd Top (especially with a land-light 22 lands, running 3 top over 3 DoJ would justify that a little more IMO).

Did you like Counterbalance in your matchups/testing? I'm still on the fence because I know it's super against a huge portion of the meta, but Countertop isn't best implemented in the Landstill shell, which I am still trying to fit them in smoothly in a correct shell for my meta.

[whiteshepherdman]

He has sensei's top+ fetches+ brainstorm: solves any land problems but i think you have a good point in suggesting the 3rd top over DoJ. But then he's running a lot of nice removal like o-ring explosives etc so that works too. + he mentioned it was a metagame tuned deck. As long as he doesn't run into wastelands and stifles the deck works fine

[ChiiMagic]

Nice little report. I'm always happy to hear about Landstill kicking ass. I have to agree though, you're a sicko for running only 22 lands. I can see how the low land count could have worked throughout 1 tourney bc of such a small sample size, but I would 100% recommend pushing that land count up by at least 1. Just my 2 cents.

[Felidae]

@Metalwalker: Actually I didn't saw this as a real Landstill deck (dunno how to call it), like I said it was a pure meta call, because usually we have zero Merfolk players and only 1 Goblin player, so I could cut the Wastelands for more basics. However I'd put the list together about 5 minutes befor the actual tourney started, so I didn't got any testing at all.
As for Balance; it sure was an awesome feeling playing it, but in terms of a spot in the classic Landstill shell I have to disagree, the hight amount of lands and 4cc spells with little to zero 3cc spells don't look so promesing in my eyes. I know you tuned your list with Wish and stuff but it still looks kinda odd, or maybe I'm just not used to see a CB deck with a high amount of 4cc bombs.
Then yet again I did only play 4 games with the deck :S.

@the rest:
As for any bigger tournement with 40+ people I'd play my usual UWx Landstill with 23 lands + Dragon, no question there ;).

[JimmyC27]

@Metalwalker: Have you tried 2x Fact or Fiction over 2x Top? Wasting mana on the Top always seems to interfere with me using Isochron mid-game. I thought about trying Fact or Fiction, because it's pitchable to FOW. Also, I saw you switched from Counterbalance to Spell Snare in your two lists. Have you tested Spell Snare much and, if so, how useful has it been?

Cheers,

Jimmy

[kiblast]

@Metalwalker: Have you tried 2x Fact or Fiction over 2x Top? Wasting mana on the Top always seems to interfere with me using Isochron mid-game. I thought about trying Fact or Fiction, because it's pitchable to FOW. Also, I saw you switched from Counterbalance to Spell Snare in your two lists. Have you tested Spell Snare much and, if so, how useful has it been?

Cheers,

Jimmy

Also Fact or Fiction gives an amazing tempo boost when looking for a Jace or a WoG. Considering that you can play it eot, it lets you look at 5 cards, and then the 6th from turn draw. Top normally takes 3 turns to look at those 6 cards, especially since you don't always have a fetchland/shuffle effect to shuffle blank draws. FoF is a powerful tool (maybe the most powerful excluding Jace) and should not be overlooked in any Landstill build. 95% of the times I menage to EotFoF I win.

Edit: Not to mention when you chain an EotFof into another Fof, or into a Brainstorm. Now that's digging.

[GGoober]

@Metalwalker: Have you tried 2x Fact or Fiction over 2x Top? Wasting mana on the Top always seems to interfere with me using Isochron mid-game. I thought about trying Fact or Fiction, because it's pitchable to FOW. Also, I saw you switched from Counterbalance to Spell Snare in your two lists. Have you tested Spell Snare much and, if so, how useful has it been?

Cheers,

Jimmy

For myself, I'm a HUGE fan of FoF, but I feel its power is only truly abused with builds running Sweepers e.g. Wrath/Decree/Humility.

My list has no sweepers (something that I've been evolving towards), so my FoF flips do draw me cards, but are nowhere as spetacular as FoF with Humility/WoG. If the meta permits, I will return back to a 4cmc traditional Landstill list, and definitely play FoF over Top. However, I feel the traditional model failing, and the only reason why it fails is: Wasteland. If you run a heavy UW list, you can work with a higher curve, but I feel that UWx builds have an advantage in more matchups than straight UW.

Then again, if your meta is heavy Zoo and no decks with wasteland, then go for the traditional list, run sweepers, run FoF and pwn everyone. FoF is quite crappy in the 'incremental' builds that I've been testing e.g. no sweepers, only pin-point removals. Imagine going FoF into a pile of 2 StP + counters and they have a couple of dudes on board. It stiill is broken, but it's not as amazing as delving into sweepers that win the game. I feel that Top is stronger in the 'incremental' builds, since you are always in need for a relevant card at the right time.

The current ratio of removal/counter that I'm satisfied with is:

3 EE
4 StP
3 Helix

4 Counterspell
4 FoW

3 Standstill

4 Brainstorm
2 Top
2 Scepter

3 Jace
2 Elspeth

3 flex slots (currently: 1 Shackles, 2 Cunning Wish, interchanging with 3 Spell Snares with Shackles/Crucible sometimes)

This is my basis of counter/removal for my 'incremental' build. It's strong against tribal, but still has some issues with Zoo when they go Cat Cat Cat on turn 2.

In all honesty, FoF is more powerful than Jace IMO. By this I mean that you resolve it you should win. But this statement is ONLY true if and only if your list is tuned to abuse its power. And what I mean by that is you can't pack FoF in any list and expect it to win games for you. Your deck has to be designed to power it to its fullest, when you do that, FoF is both faster than Jace and puts you back into position immediately whereas Jace can't. However, things arn't that perfect in real-life playing. Bulk of the time, FoF is countered or you don't stabilize before you can cast it. Once again, it all depends on the meta, and quite critically on your deck, and the number of wastelands out there.

[kiblast]

Frankly, Wasteland is not a problem for UWx if you can play around it.Now I'm running 7 basics only for the Wastelands and Stifles out there. We need to stabilize on 4-6 mana early in the game, I think that a nice amount of basics is really needed to accomplish this task. Play 6-7 basics (I even cutted a Tundra) and Wasteland is not a problem anymore.

[GGoober]

Yeah I don't see any problem with 7 basics, it's quite easy to play around Wastes with 7 basics :P

The wasteland issue can be avoided if you play a light x-splash, but sometimes I find myself needing more than 4-5 off-color if I run more than 5 cards pre/post SB with the splash color. I stopped running the 4th Tundra since 1-2 years ago, not really needed. I guess against some decks you can certainly play around Wastes, but most of the time, playing around Waste means losing the ability to develop normally, where other decks are developing normally i.e. a tempo loss. E.g. playing against Merfolks, I do play around Waste, but I always have to consider how much Tempo I lose by doing so. How many x-color spells do you play kiblast?

So far I have a total of 3 red spells MD, with another 3 in the SB

[Shawn]

Playing more basics generally doesn't help against Wasteland, against Landstill Wasteland will always have a target. Wasteland's effectiveness isn't dependent on the number of basics a deck has, it's the number of non-basics it runs. If you run too many basics, you open yourself up to mana-inconsistencies and mulligans. I fetch duals all the time against Wasteland, and some people, such as Wafo-Tapa, even went as far as adding a 5th Tundra (Glacial Fortress) to their lists with 8 fetches. Here is some reasoning behind it:

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/sweeping-ice-and-other-important-topics-magical-christmas-basic-land/#comment-70332


Posted by:David Price
The only time basics help against wasteland is when they are going to be casting more wastelands than you have nonbasics, which doesn't happen very often

CTRL+F for David Price's comment.

[kiblast]

Playing more basics generally doesn't help against Wasteland

Seems like you never experienced Loam. Loam engine is'nt a very good matchup for landstill and playing too many non basics sure doesn't help it. Also Goblin has 8 lands to mantain mana denial, and making his Wasteland more worth sure doesn't help. Play against Goblin with 2 Islands and 2 Plains on the battlefield and play against it with 4 Tundras on the battlefield. Remember that losing a Mishra is better than losing a U/W source when you're screwed...


Yeah I don't see any problem with 7 basics, it's quite easy to play around Wastes with 7 basics :P
How many x-color spells do you play kiblast?



In my ''Classical'' UWx build, I play no x colour spells maindeck, and 6 SB. In my Cunning Landstill build I run 3 Wishes, so basically 3 cards that can be x colour.

[Hanni]

Playing more basics generally doesn't help against Wasteland, against Landstill Wasteland will always have a target. Wasteland's effectiveness isn't dependent on the number of basics a deck has, it's the number of non-basics it runs. If you run too many basics, you open yourself up to mana-inconsistencies and mulligans. I fetch duals all the time against Wasteland, and some people, such as Wafo-Tapa, even went as far as adding a 5th Tundra (Glacial Fortress) to their lists with 8 fetches. Here is some reasoning behind it:

http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...#comment-70332


Posted by:David Price
The only time basics help against wasteland is when they are going to be casting more wastelands than you have nonbasics, which doesn't happen very often
CTRL+F for David Price's comment.


You've totally taken David Price's comment out of context. If you're playing aggro/control like New Horizons (which was what he was referring to), then yes. His spells require alot of colors, UU, GG, GW, etc. Duals instead of basics is absolutely better in a deck like that, or like Vial Bant, and his argument is completely valid there.

In a Control deck like Landstill, that is completely wrong. Control decks are not just worried about having adequate color sources, they are also worried about having an adequate total number of lands. If you run a very strong U/W manabase with a minor splash, and a ton of basics, you are much better positioned against Wasteland, because Wasteland won't slow you down an entire turn or turns from dropping bombs like Shackles, Jace 2.0, or whatever.

A deck like New Horizons or Vial Bant isn't worried about Wastelock either, because they play enough tempo, non-land manasources, etc. In Landstill, a Wastelock is literally gg usually.

The most important aspect of any control deck is a strong consistent manabase. You can quote me on that.

[GGoober]

You've totally taken David Price's comment out of context. If you're playing aggro/control like New Horizons (which was what he was referring to), then yes. His spells require alot of colors, UU, GG, GW, etc. Duals instead of basics is absolutely better in a deck like that, or like Vial Bant, and his argument is completely valid there.

In a Control deck like Landstill, that is completely wrong. Control decks are not just worried about having adequate color sources, they are also worried about having an adequate total number of lands. If you run a very strong U/W manabase with a minor splash, and a ton of basics, you are much better positioned against Wasteland, because Wasteland won't slow you down an entire turn or turns from dropping bombs like Shackles, Jace 2.0, or whatever.

A deck like New Horizons or Vial Bant isn't worried about Wastelock either, because they play enough tempo, non-land manasources, etc. In Landstill, a Wastelock is literally gg usually.

The most important aspect of any control deck is a strong consistent manabase. You can quote me on that.

Replied with Quote.

[Shawn]

Seems like you never experienced Loam

Of course you have problems with recurring Wastes with fewer basics, but:


Very few people actually play Loam, or Wastelock. We shouldn't be afraid of a deck that makes up such a small portion of the metagame.
You can still run four to five basics and beat them by casting your 4cc bombs. It's a difficult match-up but very beatable.



Play against Goblin with 2 Islands and 2 Plains on the battlefield and play against it with 4 Tundras on the battlefield.

I would would play against Goblins with 4x Tundra in play all day if I could. If they have double Waste, double Port, or Port and a Waste, I can still cast my UU and WW spells with Tundras. If they have a Port they can keep me off WW or UU if I only had a pair of Islands and a pair of Plains. Situationly I fetch basics, but they aren't preferred.

Let's say I'm playing against Goblins, post sideboard with Plagues, and I need to break my fetch to cast something:
Lands in play example:

Tundra, UW fetch, Mishra's Factory, Scrubland

I would most likely fetch a Tundra. If I have Island-Factory-Tundra-Scrubland in play, A Wasteland will either keep my off of WW or UU. If I fetch for a Plains, he can remove my lone U source.

If I have Tundra-Tundra-Factory-Scrubland, I will still have access to WW and at least U after a Wasteland. Situations like this show that it is correct to fetch duals in certain situations in the face of Wasteland.


If you're playing aggro/control like New Horizons (which was what he was referring to), then yes. His spells require alot of colors, UU, GG, GW, etc.

How is that any different than Landstill? We play spells that require UU, WW, and generally a splash color of red or black. We run even more colorless lands than they do, and more that only produce a single color. Running too many lands that only produce a single color will cause more mulligans; it happened to me in SCG Kansas City and has happened at many other tournaments. Konsultant said something similar a while back when he tried six or seven basics in a tournament, I can't find the link, though.


because Wasteland won't slow you down an entire turn or turns from dropping bombs like Shackles, Jace 2.0, or whatever.

Wasteland is going to kill a land against us and serve it's purpose, unless you draw all basics/all fetches hand, and the chances of that happening are slim. Double Waste will almost always be effective as well. We generally run over ten non-basics outside of fetches.


You've totally taken David Price's comment out of context. If you're playing aggro/control like New Horizons (which was what he was referring to), then yes.

He was talking about legacy decks in general (like the Survival example he gave), not just New Horizons.


(For reference: I play five basics in my current list, but I wouldn't recommend going much higher than that, and I wouldn't cut Tundra for more basics)

[JamieW89]

You're still running a decent number of non-basics (like 10-14?) so you'll usually end up needing to play one from your hand to even get adequate lands. I'd say there's no real reason to run much more than 4-5 basics, although I'd never run less than 4 either. You can function on 4 lands against loam as well anyways.

And I still agree on my post a few pages back stating you could just not run wasteland yourself. Even a UWbr list (red for Firespout, black for sb stuff) didn't get manascrewed that much and a plain UWb list with a solid 5 basics (2,2,1) felt even more stable.

I don't really play landstill atm, but FoF always felt weaker than Jace and Top for me. Top is your #1 card against storm combo, especially if they play without chants. It's also great against The Rock (Or Dark Horizons, however you want to call it) and other discard strategies.

[Felidae]

Running 4-5 is solid , as you are able to cast any spell in the deck with them while still being able to have acces to WW /UW / UU on turn 2-3.

Of course you have problems with recurring Wastes with fewer basics, but:

* Very few people actually play Loam, or Wastelock. We shouldn't be afraid of a deck that makes up such a small portion of the metagame.
* You can still run four to five basics and beat them by casting your 4cc bombs. It's a difficult match-up but very beatable.

Nothing more to add.

Oh and by the way: Did we actually discuss anything else in the past weeks then FoF vs. Jace vs Top ? It seems to me that most of us have a linear view on this topic (given by there own experience) so let's move ahead, instead of posting the same old arguments over and over again.

With that in mind I'd like to ask you about the following: Preacher vs Peacekeeper:
At the time where Survival was the DtB good old Peacekeeper did pretty well in protecting our ass from raging Vines, but now, where the meta shifts back to where it was 1 year ago, she did lose some of her power.
Comparing both Preacher and Peacekeeper isn't easy, as both fullfill a diverent role on the board, but lets give it a try:
Preacher: Allows you to steal a creature of an opponent's choice, creating a board state where he's either forced to overextend or resolves an allternativ win con (Jace for example). His great strengh is given by the fact that the average player will side his removal out against us, so we can safely ride them to victory (the same is true for Peacekeeper). He also allows us to keep 2-3 Standstill in the deck against Merfolk , which wouldn't be such a good choice without him.
Peacekeeper: Locks the game state down, up to a point where you either win via Jace or an large army of tokens. Usually requires at least one Plains in play, to survive a srew on white mana, and enough counter to resolve your own wincondition. Her problem is that she is very slow (keeping digging for counter and Jace / Elspeth + the amount of time you spend on both of them) and that Standstill isn't so strong on her side (at least until you did resolve a way to win the game).

Lets take a look at some MU's where both of them might come in and how they impact the game:

Merfolk
Preacher forces them to play out a LoA or and level 4 Commander, in order to get aorund this guy, while we can rely on cheap spotremoval to prevent this. The 16 lord list is a problem though, as Kira is a problem to deal with.
Peacekeeper will lock down the game, until they find some way to bounce him. Usually if they don't have a way to do so they are likely to stall a bit (at least if they are smart enough), making it troublesome to end 3 games in the given time.

Ichorid
Preacher doesn't really do anything here.
Peacekeeper is able to buy you some time, in order to find the grave hate, only recuring Darkblast can be tough to play against.

Team America
Oh I can't count how often I'd beat them with there own Tombstalker, so awesome ;).
Peacekeeper does basicly the same that he does against Merfolk, the only problem is that Sinkhole, Stifle and Wasteland can hurt you to a point where he dies in the upkeep.

fast Zoo
Neither of them do anything besides catching a removal or die as a chump blocker.

Big Zoo
If you are able to counter there removal those guys can be awesome, however Preacher gets my vote here, as it is to cruel to get stomped from there horde after they found another piece of removal when you are light on counter.

Bant
Swinging with Goyfs is neat.
As they tend to run Jace on there own you can't rely entirely on Peacekeeper, but lets face it; Bant was allways one of our best MU's, even without Peacekeeper or Preacher.

Aggro Elves
Preacher creates an endless army of chumb blockers.. sweet.
Peacekeeper does win the game, if they haven't got acces to Living Wish -> Masticore.

Combo Elves
Preacher is to slow , as they can give you any random elv and still combo out,
Again Peacekeeper is the nuts.

Sneak and Tell
Did you ever swing with a Emrakul ? It sure does feel awesome.
Both Woodfall Primus and Form of the Dragon can kill Peacekeeper (well the first one can technicly do it), but overall he's still a bomb in the MU (the only given prob. is that REB seems to work great on Jace).

... to be continued.

[kiblast]

Of course you have problems with recurring Wastes with fewer basics, but:


Very few people actually play Loam, or Wastelock. We shouldn't be afraid of a deck that makes up such a small portion of the metagame.
You can still run four to five basics and beat them by casting your 4cc bombs. It's a difficult match-up but very beatable.


I would would play against Goblins with 4x Tundra in play all day if I could. If they have double Waste, double Port, or Port and a Waste, I can still cast my UU and WW spells with Tundras. If they have a Port they can keep me off WW or UU if I only had a pair of Islands and a pair of Plains. Situationly I fetch basics, but they aren't preferred.

Let's say I'm playing against Goblins, post sideboard with Plagues, and I need to break my fetch to cast something:
Lands in play example:

Tundra, UW fetch, Mishra's Factory, Scrubland

I would most likely fetch a Tundra. If I have Island-Factory-Tundra-Scrubland in play, A Wasteland will either keep my off of WW or UU. If I fetch for a Plains, he can remove my lone U source.

If I have Tundra-Tundra-Factory-Scrubland, I will still have access to WW and at least U after a Wasteland. Situations like this show that it is correct to fetch duals in certain situations in the face of Wasteland.




Having 4 mana and being able to cast your UU and WW spells is of course good, but seems like you already stabilized your manabase to develop your gameplan properly. That's not the focus of what I'm saying. I'm saying that you need to be able to play against turn 1 vial and turn 2/3 Waste+Port, because against goblins, you can understand if the match will be a loss or a win within the first 3 turns, or even the first 2. Let's say your opponent goes mountain, Vial, go and you don't have Force. Then he drops Turn 2 Wasteland and Turn 3 Port, or Turn 2 and 3 double Wasteland. Clearly, if you dropped only basics and fetchlands in your first 2 turns you still have outs, but if you landed Tundra/Usea or double Tundra you are clearly drawing dead (Unless the goblin player has some awful draws)- Incidentally, the first turns are the ones where you start the stabilizing process and where a Wasteland and a Port are more efficient.
You can't tell me that playing more basics, and drawing basics instead of duals, is not awesome against 4 Ports and 4 Wastelands because in my humble opinion this is not true. Simply because your problem is not to reach that damn double W on your 4th turn, the problem is to reach 4 usable mana on your 4th turn against mana denial. I almost always fetch/land my Tundras only when I absolutely need that WW immediately.
Also, 4th tundra is redundant, I'd like to have a 6th/7th basic all day, or at least an utility land such as Tolaria West.

And, Loam can be a small part of the meta, but as a pure control deck you need to be able to have your outs against everything (or against as much decks as you can). Playing 4 basics and hoping that those will save your ass against Loam is a dream. It could even be non relevant ( despite I don't think so because Loam is maybe one of the most broken and abusable engines courrently available in legacy)
but it's a though MU for UWx and playing an insufficent amount of basics doesn't help it.
So:


Running 4-5 is solid , as you are able to cast any spell in the deck with them while still being able to have acces to WW /UW / UU on turn 2-3.



That's not always true.
I strongly believe that in a format where there are decks playing Stifle/Waste, Waste/port, or Loam/Waste, running less than 5-6 basics is suicide... you choose :).

[Shawn]

If they have first turn Vial, play fetches, then basics and don't crack the fetches unless you need to. That's how to play against mana-disruption of Wastes and Ports. Even with only four or five basics you can accomplish this. If they have double mana-disruption, it's annoying, but if you have enough colored sources in your list, you're able to work out of it most of the time. Mana-disruption is just as affective against lists with lots of basic lands, if not more since they have more lands that only produce a single color. That is why Ugb Landstill runs so few basics. If you Waste a Tropical Island or a Sea, they will find another. (However, this is different if you cut down on the number of colorless lands for basics in your UWx lists) Wasteland is going to hit a land regardless, so you need to minimize it's effectiveness by having as many colored sources of both colors in play. (sometimes you can safely fetch all basics, but this is very uncommon) Sometimes decks nut draw you with double Waste/Port. This happens, but it's not like we don't have the tools to interact with them, and you should have enough lands in your deck to play out of it most of the time.


And, Loam can be a small part of the meta, but as a pure control deck you need to be able to have your outs against everything (or against as much decks as you can).

You only need outs for cards you play against. For example Gerry T ran 0 graveyard removal in his Counterbalance deck in San Jose. Why? The chances of him playing against Dredge were very small because of his byes and the general lack the deck being played, so they were a waste of space.

In all of the large events I've been to in the past year, Loam hasn't been played by much more than ten people, out of about an average of slightly under two hundred. Why should I worry about that 5%?

[kiblast]

If they have first turn Vial, play fetches, then basics and don't crack the fetches unless you need to. That's how to play against mana-disruption of Wastes and Ports. Even with only four or five basics you can accomplish this. If they have double mana-disruption, it's annoying, but if you have enough colored sources in your list, you're able to work out of it most of the time. Mana-disruption is just as affective against lists with lots of basic lands, if not more since they have more lands that only produce a single color. That is why Ugb Landstill runs so few basics. If you Waste a Tropical Island or a Sea, they will find another. (However, this is different if you cut down on the number of colorless lands for basics in your UWx lists) Wasteland is going to hit a land regardless, so you need to minimize it's effectiveness by having as many colored sources of both colors in play. (sometimes you can safely fetch all basics, but this is very uncommon) Sometimes decks nut draw you with double Waste/Port. This happens, but it's not like we don't have the tools to interact with them, and you should have enough lands in your deck to play out of it most of the time.

If playing 4 basics against goblins works for you, it's ok. I feel more confortable playing a bigger number of basics.I almost always fetch basics only and stabilize nicely. But probably is only about your build and approach to the deck. I just feel that Landstill works better and is more reliable with 6-7 basics.


You only need outs for cards you play against. For example Gerry T ran 0 graveyard removal in his Counterbalance deck in San Jose. Why? The chances of him playing against Dredge were very small because of his byes and the general lack the deck being played, so they were a waste of space.

In all of the large events I've been to in the past year, Loam hasn't been played by much more than ten people, out of about an average of slightly under two hundred. Why should I worry about that 5%?

Of course. But I'm reasoning in a vacuum, I'm not metagaming. I think that even if small, Loam is here and in unknown metas coud be played, I mean you should be prepared to play against it. Then if in your meta/in the next big tournament you are going to play you already know that it is not played, that's fine.

[Felidae]

Played my strange list again:
R1: BUG threshold
G1: I'm able to stabilize on turn 6 with Humility, followed by Decree for the win.
G2: Finished on confortable 18 life, as I just got an answer for everything he throws at me.

R2: BUG threshold
G1: I land Humility on turn 5 (notice a pattern :S ?) and Elspeth took the lead soon after.
G2: I struggle for a while as he had a Needle for Mishra and Stifle for Explosive. After some turns his treshed Mongose got there, as Elspeth can't stop 2 of those guys.
G3:Welcome to turn X,lets take a look at the board: 2xTropical, 2x Usea,Wasteland,Misty Rainforest and a treshed Mongose vs Counterbalance, 5 Islands, Steamvents, 4 life and a hand containing Path, Sword, Wrath, Elspeth and Decree. Guess who won ---

R3: RGW Midrange Aggro
G1: Humility is just that good (and actually I'm quite good at drawing my 1offs I guees).
G2: A small amount of burn and some large dudes usually don't win against UWx control.

R4: MUD
G1:Sword some guys, blow Explosiv up, draw some cards... dunno what actually happend in this game.
G2: He did basicly kill himself with Tomb, flying tokens took the rest.

3-1 and a shitty 5th place :(.

Lessons learned:
-I'm good at drawing 1 off's (actually this also happens quite often when I play the usual UWx LS)
-Counterbalance is a fine card, but a strong 4cc core can easily win without it.
-Basics are fine, but 7 are way to much ( won't cut them for Wastelands though, still a meta call ).
-a 3rd Top would help, but I just love Decree so much. I'm going to spend some time testing if 3 Tops are worth the slot.

[Tinefol]

Because its tHreshold.

[Felidae]

Wow, i feel like an idiot now :D

[GGoober]

I don't get it, how did you spelled Threshold? lol

[Felidae]

Thats because I ninja edited the post, so you'll never find out :P. (well basicly I forgot the first h, yet I didn't know that threshold withouth h is a filthyword in the englisch language).

[Shawn]

Who is going to SCG Indianapolis? Some of us are most likely heading from Cedar Falls on Saturday. I will probably play Landstill or Supreme Blue.

[GGoober]

Thats because I ninja edited the post, so you'll never find out :P. (well basicly I forgot the first h, yet I didn't know that threshold withouth h is a filthyword in the englisch language).

Wow I did not know that Threshold without h is a filthy language. You learn something from MTG/Legacy everyday!

[Jak]

Wow I did not know that Threshold without h is a filthy language. You learn something from MTG/Legacy everyday!

It was done a while back to help people spell it correctly. A lot of non-English speaking people would make the same mistakes.

[The Treefolk Master]

Quote from Adam Barnello's article for CB (talking about Inkmoth Nexus):


This land may single handedly be the reason that Landstill becomes a viable deck again. With it alongside a few Blinkmoth Nexuses, the clock it represents is more significant than most of the comparable ones the deck has tried, and the Blinkmoth has the evasion required to be a reliable threat. If, for example, you hide behind a Moat, or behind a stream of tokens from Elspeth, you’ll have no issue with securing the few turns it would take to end the game efficiently. This should cut down on two major drawbacks (which are related) with playing pure control in Legacy – inability to close a game before losing control, and time (read: clock) management. I have high hopes for Inkmoth. I expect to see it become as much a staple as Mishra’s Factory.

Thoughts?

[GGoober]

I don't disagree with his statement. He makes valid points. But my thoughts on his issues:

1) Landstill/control decks have problems winning games in time.
This is deck design, and lists without Elspeth run into even more problems. Lists with both Elspeth and Decree tend to win games fast but suffer from lack of removal/permission from the slots taken up by Decree. All again, different lists work for different metas. He is referring to the more commonly played lists of Landstill with 2 Jace, 2 Elspeth, which I feel still win games comfortably within time unless they play Top, or get paired with bad matchups (matchups that go to time e.g. Loam, Stax, Enchantress).

Without Elspeth, Inkmouth still takes 10 turns to win, which argubly is as slow as Jace whereas Jace is securing wins. But he has a point that Inkmouth win games in the way Jace does, where Factories aren't since they're swinging on the ground.

2) His points are strengthened in builds playing Moat, i.e. Inkmouth is better in Moat builds than non-Moat builds.

The only issue I see with considering Inkmouth is:
Which lands are you replacing? Knowing Landstill's hideous ratio of colorless lands, you have to cut Wastelands/Ruins/Factories while maintaining a maximum of 7 colorless lands. One can cut Wasteland/Ruins and run 4 Factories/3 Inkmouth or a 3/4 split, or a 3/3/1 Inkmouth/Factory/Ruins split.

However if one is considering cutting Factories for Inkmouth, I think the choice is very debatable and I'm leaning that Factory is still better. Factory is critical in blocking 2/2s or trading with 3/3s (Zoo, Lord'd folks) whereas Inkmouth shrinks them -1/-1. Getting rid of a creature is much more important than shrinking dudes when playing control due to the fact you are evaluating every trade/decision based on card/board-position value. Factories can also grow to 4/4 and remove 3/3s where Inkmouth is unable to do so.

All in all, Factories are still better on the defensive, where Inkmouth is better on the offensive. Whether Landstill needs to go more offensive to win games in time, or lose its defensive position, is based on the choices of cards played in the deck. I'm personally inclined towards a 3/3/1 Factory/Inkmouth/Ruins split running 2 Crucible MD AND 1-2 Moats. I don't think Inkmouth will be as widely played in control lists as he claims (my opinion, I might be wrong) because to support Inkmouth in the format, you need to make it worthwhile, i.e. running Moat/Crucibles, otherwise it is a decent land that questions the selection of the manabase (a critical question).

Bulk of the time, control decks like Landstill have to focus on the control role. You only start beating when you are in a good position. In fact, the reason Landstill and other control decks go to time is this: It is difficult to stabilize with a control deck in Legacy. There are a lot of powerful strategies that make control difficult to establish in the format. It takes some time and deck design has a big role to do with it. One can argue that playing with Inkmouth will speed things up, but I strongly believe it will only speed up the post-control game up i.e. it'll speed up the game when you have established control. What I feel Landstill needs is a good set of strategy that establishes control faster in the early game (e.g. Countertop does that), so the post-control game can be comfortably won, with or without inkmouth. The bottleneck to the deck's speed isn't really the winning-phase, it's the control/stabilization phase.

Inkmouth is better on the offensive, but fails to establish the defensive/control position which bulk of the time the deck is required to do so. To me, factories are almost uncuttable, but if inkmouth were to be worked in a list, a 3/3/1 Factory/Inkmouth/Ruins list might be the best way in a 24 land build.

EDIT: Forgive my spelling for InkMOTH. Change all Inkmouths to Inkmoths...

[kiblast]

I don't disagree with his statement. He makes valid points. But my thoughts on his issues:

Inkmouth is better on the offensive, but fails to establish the defensive/control position which bulk of the time the deck is required to do so. To me, factories are almost uncuttable, but if inkmouth were to be worked in a list, a 3/3/1 Factory/Inkmouth/Ruins list might be the best way in a 24 land build.

.

I suggested Inkmoth a few pages back. Surely it represents a real clock for the opponent if we have an Elspeth on the table. But Metal is right when says that: fails to establish the defensive/control position. That's why Mishra is still superior. I tried Inkmoth in my build (classic 2/2 PW split) and unless you are in complete control it is useless. And when UWx is in complete control, even a Grizzly Bear could function as a valid win con; so, no use in my opinion for this cool land.

However, tomorrow I'm going to have a tournament, and this is the sideboard I'm testing:

1x Tormod's Crypt
3x Meddling Mage
3x Engineered Plague
3x Extirpate
1x Enlighened Tutor
2x Ivory Tower
2x Ethersworn Canonist

I like the idea of a lightly ''toolbox-like'' SB with only a singleton Tutor. The fact is that a lone Tutor functions like an added copy of the sideboarded card. For example, playing against burn, it is the 3rd Ivory Tower. Against ANT, represent the 3rd Canonist, against goblins the 4th E Plague. I choose Tormod's possibility to be transmuted over Relic cantrip effect. I hope Ivory tower is enough to stop Burn and Sligh, because I found Pulse of the Fields to be slow and I dislike Leyline as I don't want to mull into one.

[GGoober]

I'll test CiP: Red or Story Circle over Ivory Tower if you're worried about the burn matchup. Since youy're playing Ivory Tower, it seems that you are trying narrow hate against a meta of burn. CiP: Red will stomp them (where Ivory Tower dies to Sulfuric Vortex).

CiP: Red is also less dead against Gobs and Zoo, but all in all I feel that if your meta is that burn heavy, bad luck to you playing this deck :P

[Hanni]

I don't understand the point of running narrow answers in a deck that needs broad general answers. If Burn is a problem, run Counterbalance.

[kiblast]

I don't understand the point of running narrow answers in a deck that needs broad general answers. If Burn is a problem, run Counterbalance.

In your opinion is possible to effectively run Countertop as a side answer? Without changing the cc ratio of your deck?
Also I was running those Ivory Tower because I couldn't find my CoP: red and I refused to buy another set. By the way, they were useless as I ended 3-3 losing to New Horizon (1st game I screw without any Wasteland or Stifle, 2nd one I flood with 7 lands + 1 Wasted and 1 fetch stifled)
then losing to Merfolk (and I even play 6 StP effect+3 EE, Peacekeeper I'm going to get you) and TezzAffinity ( I hate Affinity, Affinity players and Tezzeret 2.0. First game he gets a turn 2 swinging equipped Frogmite for 10, then cast Tezz 2.0 and +1 him, turn 3 16 damages from Tezz. 2nd game I get raped by turn 2 4/4, 2/2 and 8/2 flyer. Of course I see 1 StP in 2 games. My opponent was a 12 years old kid that never asked me OK? after playing something. I think that Peacekeeper should shine in this MU too.)

[Felidae]

I guess Hanni wanted to say that we should all run Counterbalance in the maindeck (like he basicly said in any other of his last posts ).

As for Ivory Tower; well you really need it on the first 2-3 turns to get enought value out of it, so on paper it doesn't look very promising to me. If Burn really takes over your Meta then Hanni is absolutly right, because without Counterbalance we really have a hard time against them. Then again when did Burn ever took over a Legacy Metagame oO?

Losing to Affinity feels kinda odd (btw I know this pattern of playing, my friend does it, too. Throwing his entire hand on the table befor you can even think about countering something), because there threads aren't so scary compared to ours and after they played down there first hand they are stuck in topdeck mode.

[Hanni]

I guess Hanni wanted to say that we should all run Counterbalance in the maindeck (like he basicly said in any other of his last posts ).


I'm not saying everybody should play Counterbalance in the maindeck. I tried saying that before, but it eventually changes the deck into a deck that's not Landstill, so that's not what I was getting at in my post above. I meant running Counterbalance in the sideboard.


If Burn really takes over your Meta then Hanni is absolutly right, because without Counterbalance we really have a hard time against them. Then again when did Burn ever took over a Legacy Metagame oO?


Well, Counterbalance is a good sideboard option for Sligh and Fast Zoo, too. Plus it's great against Aggro Loam, 43 Lands, etc... making it a much more versatile sideboard option than Ivory Tower.

As far as Merfolk and Affinity is concerned, I've been doing well with 2 Vedalken Shackles in the maindeck and 2 Peackeeper in the sideboard.

[GGoober]

If you really hate burn affinity, I recommend CoP: Red, Katakis and Energy Flux in the SB. If you find Energy Flux/Kataki weak against Affinity, please let me know why because I need some insight on beating Kataki if they ever get played in my meta (when I play my stompy deck).

Kataki is going to be much more powerful than Energy Flux against Affinity since it's a turn faster and you don't want to risk a turn dying to affintiy.

[kiblast]

I understand the strenght of Countertop in sideboard and in maindeck and there are lots of reasons to run it. But, as every Countertop- based decks player would tell you, you have to build your whole deck around it so you can costantly flip the correct amount of cc1, cc2 and cc3 out of it. I think that my UWx build (wich is very close to the classical 4cc bombs build, as I run 2 Wog effects, 4 Planeswalker, 1 Humility and 2 FoF) can't menage to flip a nice ratio of 1-2-3 drops out of the Counterbalance. Now I'm running 8 4cc cards, plus 4 FoWs , and 27 cards with 0cc (counting 24 lands + 3 EE). This means that there are 39 cards out of the most used legacy mana curve, wich is 1 to 3 cc. And I don't even play a single 3cc drop! That's why I can't afford to play CounterTop, unless I radically change my build adding a combination of Vedalken Shackles, Crucible and maybe Esper Charm, and removing some 4cc cards, and playing less lands. That would lead to a non Landstill build and I'm not interested in it as I like the 8 4cc bombs build.

Affinity. Affinity is a rising deck, so probably It is worth to dedicate SB space to it (though I refuse to do so) the problem is that their gameplan is so fast that you are dead before trying to setup your answers. The only one wich sees to be viable, fast and effective is Kataki. But seiously, who's going to cut 3 slots for 1 MU? And what would you cut? Extirpates, Meddling Mages and Engineered plague are all cards that are more versatile and shine in more than 1 MU.Energy Flux is a bomb against them, and seems fast enough, but the problem is the same: 3 slots in side for one janky deck. I'd prefer running Peacekeeper who is worthwile in at least 2 Matchups: Affinity and Merfolk.

I could'nt play Cop: Red because I did'nt have at the time of the tournament, with no money left to buy some ^^, so I understand that Ivory is a sub par answer but that was all I had at the time I played in the tournament. I'll definitely get 4 of 'em for the sb as I tested them and they were really good, shining not only against Burn but against any deck playing at least 12 burn spells in it.


Maybe a Toolbox-like sb with a full 4 Enlightened Tutors would be better, as lets you play Canonist, Energy Flux, Engineered plague, Circle of Protection: Red, even Circle of Protection: Green if you feel you need it, Wheel of Sun and Moon, Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus as singletons, leaving enough space for 3 Meddling Mages or 3 Extirpates if you want.

[Hanni]

But, as every Countertop- based decks player would tell you, you have to build your whole deck around it so you can costantly flip the correct amount of cc1, cc2 and cc3 out of it. I think that my UWx build (wich is very close to the classical 4cc bombs build, as I run 2 Wog effects, 4 Planeswalker, 1 Humility and 2 FoF) can't menage to flip a nice ratio of 1-2-3 drops out of the Counterbalance. Now I'm running 8 4cc cards, plus 4 FoWs , and 27 cards with 0cc (counting 24 lands + 3 EE). This means that there are 39 cards out of the most used legacy mana curve, wich is 1 to 3 cc. And I don't even play a single 3cc drop!

In a more tempo oriented CounterTop deck, blind flips might be important, but in a control shell like Landstill, blind flipping isn't that important. You plan on getting to the deep lategame, and have a bunch of draw effects; you will almost always assemble CounterTop.

As a sideboard plan for Landstill decks, it doesn't matter what your curve is like maindeck. Against the matchups where you bring it in against, you can manipulate your curve with your sideboard (by cutting dead cards). For example, you don't care about countering 3cc spells against Burn. Between Standstill, Counterbalance, and Counterspell, you should already have enough 2cc spells postboard without bringing in some other 2cc spells. Between Swords, Brainstorm, and Top, you should have enough 1cc spells, etc. You only need 10 of each (1cc and 2cc) for CounterTop to do what it needs to do against the matchups you'd bring it in against.

It just seems silly to sideboard cards like Ivory Tower to address matchups like Burn when you can sideboard a card that's just as good against that matchup (arguably better), while being really good against other matchups too. Just my 2 cents.

[kiblast]

It just seems silly to sideboard cards like Ivory Tower to address matchups like Burn when you can sideboard a card that's just as good against that matchup (arguably better), while being really good against other matchups too. Just my 2 cents.

I've said in the last post that I understand how Ivory is sub par and I couldn't find any CoPs for my sb. What do you think is the correct amount of Tops and Counterbalance in SB? 3 and 3? or 4 and 4?

[Tao]

I like Countertop maindeck. Mostly because Sensei's Divining Top is so good in this deck. You have a lot of removal that is dead against one half of the Meta and a lot of matches where you don't want some of your control elements and just want to find as many Swords as possible. Top has simply been stellar for me and when you already play it you can get Counterbalance as a Bonus. It helps controlling the late game, sometimes just randomly wins and it increases the blue count for FoW that is often becoming dangerously low for me. Overall Counterbalance has been a worthy MD card for me.

But a card I really fell in love with in UW Landstill has been Trinket Mage. It does everything the deck wants: Finding Top when low on cards, finding Explosives against Swarms and finding Needle when you need to get rid of Vial for cheap Mana. It almost always gives you at least some kind of life, too, by chumping or going plowing. Being blue for FoW, being CMC 3 for CB is good and being a random dork that hits for 2 against Combo is nice, too. Post SB Trinket Mage, Crypt, go is also a great play.

I am also currently testing Enlightened Tutor plus Thopter-Combo in the deck and so far I like it.

[GGoober]

I know some people are probably pissed with the influx of Countertop in Landstill but I'm one open to such ideas (in fact tested a couple of builds).

But what I want to confirm here, is that people posting Countertop strategies in Landstill the Landstill thread, and I want the common ground that we are still playing Landstill (whether you play Countertop or not) as in the core cards of:

3 Standstill
4 Mishra's Factory
2-3 EEs

Amiritemates?!

I personally think Standstill is just too good to not play in a control-shell. Others will disagree, but even in the face of Vial/aggro etc, Standstill is still good. You just have to modify the decklists to support it in such a meta. There is no other spell that outdraws Standstill (predict is just as situational, Treasure Hunt needs a completely different deck shell and still only draws 1 business spell).

[Hanni]

Why do you need to draw cards though? Counterbalance costs the same mana as Standstill, is also a blue enchantment, and generates massive amount of card advantage too. However, rather than putting cards into hand, you effect the gamestate. It's also much less conditional, and has the potential to gain much more relevant card advantage.

[Jason]

But what I want to confirm here, is that people posting Countertop strategies in Landstill the Landstill thread, and I want the common ground that we are still playing Landstill (whether you play Countertop or not) as in the core cards of:

3 Standstill
4 Mishra's Factory
2-3 EEs

Amiritemates?!


I only play 2x Mishra's Factory because it taps for colorless mana. I'd rather play more colored sources to help me stabilize to a point where I can win with Jace 2.0, Elspeth or Decree. I also have a one-of Celestial Colonnade because it taps for both white and blue. The etb tapped only sucks when it is my second, third or fourth land drop. In all other instances, I have had no issue with the card having no use the first turn I play it. (and for the record, I'm not playing Counterbalance)

[GGoober]

@Hanni: Because Countertop will generate you advantage only when you have assembled it. In your list or countertop landstill, it is harder to establish Countertop than countertop decks and when you do intend to go in that direction, then the deck no longer becomes Landstil, and becomes a Countertop variant. Although most Countertop lists are starting to Planeswalkers (and this should had been the case if they're leaning towards a more controllish role than a traditional Nassif/Prosak Goyf/Clique/Sower role).

I think this maybe the very reason why Landstill isn't played as much as it once was. There's too much variance and new people or people looking to see developments into the deck ends up seeing metagame variants of decks.

I think we are currently having one of the most unorganized threads on the Source. At least BUG Jacestill has somewhat consolidated on card selection. Not that UWx Landstill being this variant is a bad thing, but I definitely think it contributes to detering people from following the thread or picking it up.

(And I'm waiting for someone outside the Landstill thread to come chime in how Landstill is not a good deck :P)

[Tao]

So my longer reply has been swallowed by the site. Crap. Summary:

Auto includes:
- BUG has a fixed list because they have not as many alternatives
- UWx spells in every deck: 4 FoW, 4 StoP, 4 BS, 2 Standstill, 2 Explosives. + 2 Factories as beaters
- I think that we should add 1 Academy Ruins to that list. Any objections?

Choices I like:
- Trinket Mage: his flexibility has been great for me, I wouldn't cut him anymore
- Jace TMS: good enough and should be imo played by every version. It is quite unlikely that you lose once you untap with it and at worst he is Healing Salve + Brainstorm/Unsummon
- Crucible: I can't understand how players can ever not play this card. Recurring Fetchlands gives insane value in long games and recurring Manlands is quite useful, too.

[GGoober]

The more I've been playing, the more I see the value of Trinket Mage. He's already been showing his value in Countertop lists. I just have to work out slots that work with im. not sure why people don't play Crucible either. Even without using Tops/Brainstorms, it's generating +1 card/land a turn and gives the deck the resiliency that it's most vulnerable to: Wasteland.

[Jason]

I am not overly impressed with Crucible a lot of times. Against opposing control, the card is insane; however, I nearly always play control and have played the control v. control matchup enough to know how to gain an edge in the match. Basically, I feel I don't need it to win control v. control. As for the other times it should be good - Merfolk, Goblins, Aggro Loam, other decks packing Wasteland - oftentimes, when I could cast it, I need the mana to get rid of an opposing threat (LoA, Lackey, Crusher) or I need the mana for a Counterspell to stop something stupid from hitting play. If the board position stabilizes, I find that I no longer need the Crucible and it just feels like win-more. If the board position doesn't stabilize, then Crucible wouldn't have helped me anyway. I don't disagree with the fact hitting land drops every turn and recurring manlands is really powerful; I have personally found it unnecessary.

[Tao]

So after more testing I came up with a list that I am satisfied with and that I would like to share at the end of the post. But card choices first:

-2 Wrath of God, 0 Humility, 0 Moat.
It was too often that I would Humility and then take 3-4 damage the next turn so I still have to spend removal spells for their creatures. Stoneforge Mystic/Equipment gains popularity atm and then Humility sucks even more and post board most decks have Grips. There were too many side effects.

Moat has a very high variance and in general UW Landstill wants no variance in the solid Tarmogoyf matchup. G1 it shines relatively often, but enough decks already play Pridemages and with Green Sun's Zenith that won't get better. Postboard most decks get a ton of Grips and then you have no idea where you are at with your Moat. Only against the tribal matchups Moat is good but nowhere else.

Wrath'ing them two for one has overall worked out best for me and sometimes you get much more out of it. And even if it is only a one for one isn't the end of the world. They won't hit you back. It helps a lot that I play Trinket Mage to take care of Aether Vials, otherwise Wrath would probably be worse.
Another big plus for Wrath is that one of the main reason to play Wrath/Moat/Humility is Progenitus and Progenitus decks always have Grip post board.

- 0 Standstill: I cut Standstill completely. It was by far not often enough good. Either they go Vial, or they play Factory.dec too or they are so fast (Affinity, Zoo, Dredge) that I only need Tempo, not cards.

- 3 Trinket Mage: I always feel impressed with this card. I gave the reasons for it last page. I'd like to add that Trinket Mage gives this otherwise very static deck a lot of much needed flexibility.

- 2 Crucible of Worlds: I think Crucible is worth it. I side it out against Aggro but depending on what kind of list you play it will also give you inevitability for the late game when combined with Academy Ruins in addition to the other good effects.

- 2 Preordain/Ponder: Which one? Play whatever you think is better. The discusson about this would be not productive and doesn't belong in this thread. But playing the two additional sorcery cantrips has helped my draws a lot.

- 2 Repeal: Another card that has helped me a lot to give the deck some flexibility. Gets Aether Vials, their 1 drop on the play, Counterbalances, Moxes, punishes them for keeping stuff back and is rarely dead.

- 2 Counterbalance: This is not a Countertop list, but when the games go long it will give you a lot of value.

- 1 Path to Exile: I felt that 4 Swords were not enough.

- 0 Counterspell: In my more main phase oriented list (E.Ex., Top, Trinket Mage, Jace, WoG) I almost never had time for that.

// Lands
4 [JGC] Flooded Strand
4 [SOM] Island (4)
2 [6E] Plains (3)
3 [JGC] Polluted Delta
4 [A] Tundra
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [TE] Wasteland
1 [R] Underground Sea
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)

// Creatures
3 [FD] Trinket Mage

// Spells
3 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [OV] Swords to Plowshares
2 [10E] Wrath of God
2 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
2 [GP] Repeal
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [10E] Pithing Needle
1 [CFX] Path to Exile
2 [CS] Counterbalance
2 Preordain / Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 3 [FNM] Kitchen Finks
SB: 2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 free slots (Extirpate, more PtE, more Finks, more Crypts, Meddling Mage, Canonist, 3rd Clique)

[GGoober]

I think a lot of people would eyeball and say that your list is unfocused, but I can see where you're headed. It seems very much like the decklist that GerryT and the recent 4c countertop builds are playing without Goyfs, although it's probably not as optimized.

In my personal opinion, I would rather cut 1 card and run the 3rd Couterbalance in your list. I do agree that Wrath is more relevant again given the huge surge of aggro decks, and Humility doesn't cut it unless you have other stabilization effects (you don't run Wish/life-gain so Humility blows here).

Since I have not tested your list (but I think I have plenty of experience with Landstill), I would personally go -2 Preordain/Ponder for +1 ETutor, +1 Counterbalance, and -1 Crucible + 1 Shackles. That singleton ETutor can function as your 2nd Crucible, 4th CB, 2nd Pithing Needle, 4th EE if you need to. Shackles is quite a beating against tribal these days and I'm picking it up again. Against Bant/GWx, your 5StP and 3 EE + 3 Jaces + 2 WoG should be more than enough, so Shackles can possibly solidify an all-round tribal and other non-Goyf matchup.

Looks solid though. I personally won't cut Standstill but I can see your hatred for the card :P I think after understanding the failures and successes of Landstill, I'm much better at utilizing Standstills. Things have changed where turn 2 Standstill is no longer as critical as before. You really only want to drop Standstill when you seal the game. When you see things from that perspective, you'll see that why I still play Standstills despite Vial.decs since I hardly drop them early if I can't put pressure under it. They'll just outdraw me and beat the crap out of me. But once you get a Planeswalker under it, it becomes very different. I say give Standstill another shot, because I don't really resolve Standstill early these days anymore, and it's not solely because of Vial.decks, it's just how I think you are no longer in the position to abuse it in the early games compared to the history of the deck.

[Tao]

That suggestion with E. Tutor sounds quite good. I started with E Tutors but always have the problem that I want to add things like Moat to increase its effectivity. So maybe 1 Tutor and no additional target can work out.
But I don't feel a need for a third Counterbalance, though. There are enough matchups in which it is bad (Merfolk, Goblins, Mox Opal Affinity) or mediocre. It is a nice tool to control the late game by not allowing Sword, Bolt or Brainstorm and countering dangerous 3 or 4-drops but not a necessity.

I don't hate Standstill, but after testing it I came to the conclusion that it is not worth playing in the current Meta. Like you said Standstill is too often not a good turn 2 play anymore. But in the later stages of the game, and especially if I get to untap with a Jace, it is already win more (unlike Counterbalance which can be the difference between win and lose).
Against Affinity, Goblins and Merfolk it is pure Force Fodder / Mulligan, against Zoo it is not reliable at all and against other control decks it doesn't do anything unless you already draw more lands than them.

On a side note, Crucible plus Jace is far more broken than Standstill plus Jace. Not that I would get it online too often and it is also win more, but I wanted to mention that when it works it is so sweet. Pretty much exactly like a free Ancestral every turn.

[kiblast]

Cutting Standstills?

http://journal.paul.querna.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/monopoly-go-to-jail-card.jpg

Seriously. Standstill is a difficult card to play with. If you find it useless it is probably because you need more and more testing with it. I menaged to stick early Standstills against every deck, from Goblin to Merfolk to Countertop. So its resiliency is not given by opponents deck, but rather from you knowledge of the timing in dropping it. Also lot of times I bluffed a Standstill and forced my opponent to play through it and let me draw 3 even if I knew his deck was better than mine under Standstill. It's a very complex card to play (and to play against) but I would never cut it. Also it is not true that is dead versus control and versus Zoo. That's my opinion...

[Jason]

Also lot of times I bluffed a Standstill and forced my opponent to play through it and let me draw 3 even if I knew his deck was better than mine under Standstill. It's a very complex card to play (and to play against)

Watching the SCG: Open from last weekend, a UBG Landstill player ran out a Standstill with a single Mishra's Factory staring down 2x Mother of Runes, even though the opponent was playing against a deck packing Wasteland. The line of play is clear: if the opponent doesn't have the Wasteland, he will be forced to break the Standstill in order to hope to apply enough pressure to be able to win the game. The opponent can't just play draw-go until he finds the Wasteland. And even if he does have the Wasteland, double Mom isn't an exceptionally fast clock; the landstill player has several turns to either find another Factory or simply sculpt his hand to the point where he nearly always wins the game. A lot of players wouldn't have cast Standstill in that spot. I was impressed when I saw it. All in all, Standstill is a very powerful card; it is also very complex.

[Tao]

I'm good, know how Standstill works and played this format and deck enough so lack of skill is not an issue.

With that out of the way I think it is undeniable that Standstill is inherently powerful but also inherently unreliable. If you have the time as well as the long-term advantage should no one play anything for a certain period of time then you can drop it, otherwise not. And in a Meta filled with decks to beat (Goblins, Merfolk, Ichorid, Mox Opal Affinity) and established decks (Landstill, Lands) it is bad against combined with the inherent unreliability in nearly every matchup I just don't think the effect when it works is powerful enough to justify having a dead card all the other times.

[Master Shake]

Guys, this thread is a mess.

I'm glad to see you're cutting Standstill for creatures and no one can see where Crucible is good.

It's hard to post any kind of response that isn't very akin to trolling, but there is so much wrong here. This is my list, piloted by my friend and teammate

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=36639

A few cards off of my list that took 10th in Nashville but with very much the same concept.

It stands to reason that you can't fit Counterspell in your deck that is tapping out for low value cards every turn. I don't see how you can really combat decks like merfolk, Goblins, opposing Countertop decks with an anemic control suite and such weak win conditions. This deck is only a temporary solution waiting for the opponent's inevitability to crush it.

Concerning cards like moat and Humility, they are exceptional against the tribal decks, also any other deck that really wants to play creatures or attack you. If you're concerned about the opponent being able to answer them you could do what I do - board them out. This is a great trick that has been passed down from control player to control player for years now. There is little better feeling than when the opponent flashes you a hand of Krosan Grips and you take your moat out of the sideboard.

I don't know how anyone can be playing this deck without Cunning Wish right now, All of the UBG players are playing it, the CAB Jace deck is playing it, it turns so many matches around with just a single card.

At least people have stopped discussing Firespout.

Also, make sure that your Explosives go to 4. And with Bant and counter-top decks coming back, Elspeth is going to be insaner than she already is.

Oh yeah, people still have no answer for Peacekeeper.

[Ajsmirnov]

The list ( http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=36639) looks like made to totally annihilate all the bad aggro or other tier-2 decks on it's way. And to just loose to all good decks, because of being to slow and having lots high costing cards. This might be because of no Wastelands in the metagame, I suppose...
[EDIT]Counted Wastelands - 16 for all top16 decks, counting 2 at that Standstill's list, ok.

*no offence, just don't like the decklist

[Master Shake]

The list ( http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=36639) looks like made to totally annihilate all the bad aggro or other tier-2 decks on it's way. And to just loose to all good decks, because of being to slow and having lots high costing cards. This might be because of no Wastelands in the metagame, I suppose...
[EDIT]Counted Wastelands - 16 for all top16 decks, counting 2 at that Standstill's list, ok.

*no offence, just don't like the decklist

Good is a relative term that you did not qualify. The deck had two losses in the 9 rounds - the mud deck that came in second and Dredge. Do those both qualify as good decks for you? Just post a reply when you feel like filling in the blank.

Also, with this being your first post in the thread, I was surprised to see that you didn't offer any sort of constructive argument. A Negative argument, which you proposed does nothing to further the conversation and is simply trolling. Was that your intention?

[Ajsmirnov]

I was going to say I don't like the deck, as I did. There are 232 pages of discussion about Landstill and many people agree that the deck like this is simply too slow for today's legacy.

And what matches you win? Yes, Dredge is good enough. MUD - we will know soon, MUD is new.

I can suggest you to test more casting costs light version, and do not rely on Moat you're siding out often. Also, is 3 Cunning wish ever good?

p.s.: 1sth post here doesn't mean I know nothing about the deck.

[GGoober]

p.s.: 1sth post here doesn't mean I know nothing about the deck.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, but performance means more than words. What MShake is sayingn if you have criticism/opinions, back them up with arguments. Shake's backed his list up with results, and what you feel is 'slow' is all relative to the metagame they were preparing against. IMO, Humility and Moat both shut out a ton of decks at the moment. The permission/removal suite seems to look good to stabilizing up to turn 4. (5 counterspells/snares, 5 StP/Path, on top of 3 EE and 4 Force).

[Felidae]

Ah it's good to see you back in this thread shake :).
Regarding your list (and comparing it to your last some pages back) I noticed that you've cut the 3rd DoJ and the Eternal Dragon, together with the Pate in the board, any suggestions about this?

[kiblast]

Concerning cards like moat and Humility, they are exceptional against the tribal decks, also any other deck that really wants to play creatures or attack you. If you're concerned about the opponent being able to answer them you could do what I do - board them out. This is a great trick that has been passed down from control player to control player for years now. There is little better feeling than when the opponent flashes you a hand of Krosan Grips and you take your moat out of the sideboard.

True.



I don't know how anyone can be playing this deck without Cunning Wish right now, All of the UBG players are playing it, the CAB Jace deck is playing it, it turns so many matches around with just a single card.

I tested Wish and didn't like it, I mean, sometimes it's broken but other times all it can do is pitching to will, probably I don't like the fact that it eats 8 slots of my sb. Also only CABJace and few variations of UWx run it.Landstill UBG (called Jace Landeed ) doesn't run it.



Also, make sure that your Explosives go to 4. And with Bant and counter-top decks coming back, Elspeth is going to be insaner than she already is.

I think 4 EE is overkill, and maybe a bit more of spot removal instead of the 4th one is better. But I guess it's all about your playstyle. Elspeth is already insane...



Oh yeah, people still have no answer for Peacekeeper.

True. The fact is that I can't find any...^^

[Ajsmirnov]

Some constructive critiques.

We all know that primary idea of the deck is to Sword/Counter 1st turn threat opponent has and play Standstill. In the list from Indy it doesn't work because of only 3 Standstills and even no Enlightened MB. 4th Standstill or Enlightened should be maindecked.

Then, against decks with creatures there are two kinds of lock - Humility+Elspeth, and Moat. All 1-ofs. Tutorable only after Cunning for Enlightened resolves, wich takes an impermissible amount of time and mana investment. We can spend 2 turns assembling and fail because of simple Spell Pierce, or Vindicate, or double Wasteland on white mana(6 fetches do not support an easy finding double plains).
...ok, we board out Moat/Humility against green or splashed green opponent. They have usless Grip in hand. Can this deck ever stop ex. Goblins without those enchantments?
Also Humility without Elspeth is very soft lock, esp with only 3 Mishras.
Isn't it better to change Decree for board sweppers, Wrath/Firespout? Decree without Crucible rly looks like Raise the Alarm+draw.

[Shawn]

Concerning cards like moat and Humility, they are exceptional against the tribal decks, also any other deck that really wants to play creatures or attack you.

True, the "classic" 4cc bombs Landstill shell is very viable. I played UWr at Indy and finished 4-3-1, but doing less than stellar was more my fault than the deck's.

My tie was against UG Show and Tell when he had two cards in his library as extra turns expired and no way to kill me. He spent a over minute on a Brainstorm earlier that match, I asked him to please make a decision, and it ended up being another 20 seconds until he finished resolving it-I was watching the big clock. I should have done something about that. I lost to the one High Tide player in the room I saw, game three I had three hate cards and a counter but he had triple Force. I played Jason Ford in round six, playing UB Ant. I was up a game because of tardiness and I mulligan to oblivion trying to find blue cards since I knew what he was playing. The next game I mulligan into a turn two Canonist. I am forced to play Standstill since I lose if he has a bounce spell. He casts Chain of Vapor targetting Canonist as a response. He untaps, Dark Rits (draws me into blue spell, Force), Cabal Rituals, and Grim Tutors. I Force, hoping he doesn't have another tutor, then he casts Petal, LED, Infernal-Nauseum-kill me. I punted into a draw round eight and conceded since neither of us would be able to make prize with a draw.

The deck is incredibly powerful, but the storm matchup needs some work, even with Canonists, REBs, 2 other storm hate, and Pierces side they have given me problems in tournaments and testing. My wins were against two Goblins (2-1 should have 2-0'd AJ Sacher, but I messed up a Jace brainstorm, 2-1), BWG Bob/Goyf/Knight (2-0), and Aggro Loam (2-0, I ran 0 Wish)



At least people have stopped discussing Firespout.

I do not like it maindeck at all, but I played them sideboard at Indy and they were fantastic all day, I would even go as far as adding a third. The Goblins matchup is ok without them, but it makes it basically unlosable, and it helps the Zoo and Merfolk matchups as well.


I don't know how anyone can be playing this deck without Cunning Wish right now, All of the UBG players are playing it, the CAB Jace deck is playing it, it turns so many matches around with just a single card.

I love Wish, but I find it too slow. Most of the time I was spending four mana for an expensive Path to Exile when I played it. I haven't missed it since, unless someone has Pithing Needled Explosives. I will have to try it again, the meta seems to have slowed down slightly, with the lack of Survival and the absence of Zoo.

I played a list with very similar numbers at the 4c slot as that one, 2 Humility, 1 Elspeth, 3 Jace, 2 Decree, 2 Wrath, 1 Fof. The Fof was in place of a 4th Standstill, which I was drawing too often against Vial decks in testing, and three Jace were amazing, I always wanted to have one in play.

[Master Shake]

Ah it's good to see you back in this thread shake :).
Regarding your list (and comparing it to your last some pages back) I noticed that you've cut the 3rd DoJ and the Eternal Dragon, together with the Pate in the board, any suggestions about this?

The night before we cut the dragon, we were concerned about the speed of the environment and didn't want the liability that Dragon can sometimes present, the more stable mana base was excellent and no one missed dragon all day. The 3rd Decree was a cut made a while back and while I sincerely do love that card, we needed to free a slot to combat other decks. With Bant and Rock Decks really slumping in numbers during Survival's time in the spotlight, we were not seeing as many favorable instances for the card, although we are all still very big fans of it. Two has been an excellent number as it still fills all the roles it did before, but we just can't be as liberal as we were being with the use of the card.

Concerning the Path in the board, it was mostly there for merfolk, and wasn't great against Goblins or too many other decks. merfolk has been largely taken care of thanks to Peacekeeper, so it seemed natural that one of the slots used to accommodate Peacekeeper would be a Path to Exile slot, we've all been pretty happy with this configuration.

The Firespout in the board turned out to be weak for most of us and was another last minute inclusion, it likely would have been better as Extirpate, but I wanted to be sure that we had Goblins covered. I'm still not sold on Extirpate in the current metagame, but we'll see what things look like.


I think 4 EE is overkill, and maybe a bit more of spot removal instead of the 4th one is better. But I guess it's all about your playstyle. Elspeth is already insane...

I meant to imply 4 Chrarge counters. Killing Planeswalkers is important.


We all know that primary idea of the deck is to Sword/Counter 1st turn threat opponent has and play Standstill. In the list from Indy it doesn't work because of only 3 Standstills and even no Enlightened MB. 4th Standstill or Enlightened should be maindecked.

This is a very linear approach to the deck, I am not entirely certain that we all know that or even that I know that is the main approach of the deck. The situation you've presented is a prime example of an opportunity to get full value out of Standstill, but I don't think that is the main goal of the deck. I feel that idea is to generate a lot of card advantage and quality over the course of the game and pair that with strong control elements to generate wins.


I love Wish, but I find it too slow. Most of the time I was spending four mana for an expensive Path to Exile when I played it. I haven't missed it since, unless someone has Pithing Needled Explosives. I will have to try it again, the meta seems to have slowed down slightly, with the lack of Survival and the absence of Zoo.

A lot of times if you're casting a 4 mana Path to Exile, maybe that should be a 4 mana Enlightened Tutor instead. Cunning Wish is an expensive card to play with and clearly isn't fast, but it makes it so that you're not forced to commit card slots to narrower things, such as additional copies of Path, which are dead against a good number of decks, or maindecked graveyard hate like the Baneslayer control deck does with Relic of Progenitus.


Then, against decks with creatures there are two kinds of lock - Humility+Elspeth, and Moat. All 1-ofs. Tutorable only after Cunning for Enlightened resolves, wich takes an impermissible amount of time and mana investment. We can spend 2 turns assembling and fail because of simple Spell Pierce, or Vindicate, or double Wasteland on white mana(6 fetches do not support an easy finding double plains).

If this sort of statement were true, that would imply that every deck is a bad match as every deck is either fast or packs some form of disruption. Bant and Rock style decks are incredibly favorable despite access to Wasteland, Spell Pierce, Thoughtseize and Vindicate. These cards are all good because they do more than just Wrath of God. Wrath will always just kill creatures, moat and Humility generate concessions. Sometimes Decree is only a Raise the Alarm + a draw, which is surprisingly good enough to dig a few cards deeper. However, it is the flexibility of cards like Decree of Justice and Cunning Wish that have proven themselves over and over again to me which keeps them in my deck. I will be the first to admit that on some levels it is a matter of play style, but I also feel that styles that can see the strength of those cards are playstyles well suited to playing Landstill.

Also, I've played decks with lower curves, even control decks. Despite better judgment I'm a big fan of the Counter-Top Thopter list with Future Sight. But this thread doesn't exist for the discussion of how to play that deck or a Counter-Top Deck with a Trinket mage package or other things, but rather for the discussion, critiquing and learning of Landstill, the old guard of Legacy control. While I did jut set the deck up there to be slammed by some cunning phrase talking about how it is the old guard, Landstill has sustained while the BUG, Speedstill, Dreadstill and Ultimate Walker variants have all flourished and faded, so there is clearly something to be said about the consistency and strength of the fundamentals of the deck, that is what I want to explore.

[Jason]

It stands to reason that you can't fit Counterspell in your deck that is tapping out for low value cards every turn. I don't see how you can really combat decks like merfolk, Goblins, opposing Countertop decks with an anemic control suite and such weak win conditions. This deck is only a temporary solution waiting for the opponent's inevitability to crush it.


I really like the 4x Counterspell in your list. I currently run 4x Spell Snare, 2x Counterspell and am going to try out a 3/3 split. I do like Spell Snare because there is a lot of people playing combo in the area, and I like the cheap counter to help me out. However, there is also a lot of decks with annoying planeswalkers and Spell Snare clearly does not counter opposing TMS. When I go to a larger event (an SCG Open) I'll definitely play more Counterspell for random nuisances that Spell Snare is just cold to.



Concerning cards like moat and Humility, they are exceptional against the tribal decks, also any other deck that really wants to play creatures or attack you. If you're concerned about the opponent being able to answer them you could do what I do - board them out. This is a great trick that has been passed down from control player to control player for years now. There is little better feeling than when the opponent flashes you a hand of Krosan Grips and you take your moat out of the sideboard.


Moat is a beating. Most decks can't win through it game 1. The same goes for Humility. I would never cut them from the main deck for fear the opponent is going to sideboard in K.Grip. I'll gladly go up 1-0 in the match every time. I can't agree more. This also brings up an important point: sideboarding with this deck is critical. Taking out the wrong card could cost you the game and possibly the match. Tonight, I was testing against a Sneak Attack deck and forgot to take out Spell Snare. It definitely lost me a game when I saw 3 of them.



Oh yeah, people still have no answer for Peacekeeper.

This is 100% true. People assume it's no longer relevant due to Survival being gone. The look on an opponent's face when you cast (or Show and Tell into play) Peacekeeper is priceless.

[GGoober]

Even if they had answers to Peacekeeper, it's not an answer with Split second, and that's where Counterspell/FoW come in to blank them out. The only good answers to Peacekeeper are cards like Cursed Scroll/Lavamancers/Zoos/Gobs, which you obviously don't board her in in those matchups.

Shake, in testing, did you guys play 1 Elspeth due to the situations on drawing 2 Elspeths? That happens to me quite frequently actually given the digging of the deck. She's still insanely powerful although I've been annoyed by seeing twin Elspeths during the course of games.

@4Counterspells: I live and die with with 4xCounterspells. During Survival era, it made sense to play 4 Spell Snares before Counterspells, but that era is over. We're back to the bomb-heavy 3cmc and 4cmc meta (Ringleader, Natural Order, Show and Tell, Knight of the Reliquary).

This is my latest list that has been treating me well (although Zoo just sometimes gets in there with burn before you can do anything).

Lands:
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
2 Island
2 Plains
1 Karakas

Board-control: 11
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Lightning Helix
1 Humility

Draw/tutors/cantrip: 12
4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
3 Cunning Wish
2 Fact or Fiction

Permission: 8
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

Win-condition: 6
2 Isochron Scepter
1 Crucible
2 Jace
1 Elspeth

SB:
1 REB
1 BEB
2 Path to Exile
2 Orim's Chant
2 Negate
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Etutor
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Flex slots (could be Firespout, Pithing Needle etc).

The list is still Scepterstill. Testing has shown that many times, on turn 4 (you want to play it turn 4 to at least use it once or Counterspell the removal they played on it), Scepter either gets FoW'd (you 2-1'd them) or it resolves with protection and you start 2-1'ing them every turn. Scepters turn your x4 Counterspell and x4 StP/x3Helix slots into much more when it's online. If it's countered, you have simply invested 2 mana in digging out a Counterspell/FoW from their hand, and you can recur Scepter later if you need to.

I went up to 3 Cunning Wish despite feeling the slowness of the spell. But this is compensated by the early removal suite (4 StP, 3 Helix). Path is an all-time star but I'm not amazed by it as of now in the meta of tribal/Zoo. Helix has been quite successful in testing, killing everything in tribal/merfolks without netting them a land for tempo development. More importantly, Helix essentially spells out 1 more turn. There are many games where I wished I had 25 life when playing Landstill in Legacy than 20. Some games are quite narrowly lost because of the 5-10 life buffer. Helix also allows me to cut Pulse of the Fields from the SB. Despite being a great card, Pulse only does one thing - gaining life. It is not removal. The beauty of Helix is that it both stabilizes and deals with a threat. When you put it on a Scepter, it's obviously unfair.

The maindeck otherwise is very similar to stock landstill lists, using Cunning Wish to fetch up ETutor -> Crucible/Humility/EE/Standstill when needed. Cunning Wish does a little more for this build fetching up REB/BEB/Path/Chant/Negate to be imprinted on Scepter if I ever draw one. The SB does not play Peacekeeper since it has a favorable MD against Merfolks (Helix are MVP here). If you resolve a Scepter with removal, it becomes almost impossible for them to win. Against Emrakul/Progenitus decks, Chant/Scepter becomes important here (more difficult to setup than Peacekeeper) but with a combination of Negates/REB/Chants all boarded in, your goal is to get Jace/Scepter online asap and control the game from there.

I've done quite a lot of testing with Scepter. If you have enough instants MD, it's seldom a dead card, and there are only 2-possible situations if you play it correctly: Play it turn 4 against decks with counters/Pridemage and it will either be FoW'd (which you should have a counter/fow ready) so it will be online, or you can 2-1 their FoW if you feel you no longer need Scepter because they ran out of cards and you would simply play a normal game with the removal in your hand. Against decks without counters/Pridemage, lock in Scepter as soon as turn 2, and things start getting very ugly. For myself, Scepter is like a planeswalker in the deck (casting 2cmc). You protect it you win the game, they don't deal with it, you win the game.

I've been taking a little break from this deck, and hopefully we get more insight from this thread than we had before. In the meantime, playing the aggressor in Legacy is quite fun when I no longer have to keep dealing with people's shit :P

[Beatusnox]

Hey Guys, First post on these forums.

I was turned onto Landstill over at the Official forums, and I keep seeing people refer others over here 'cause y'all know more so here I am lol. I've been tweaking this list for going on 3-4 months, and am relatively new to legacy, played casual for years and standard/extended, so If i start rambling like an idiot just tell me ^^


So when I was looking through decklists I liked I found another interaction in a deck that I though would be interesting splashed into the deck, and its the Counterbalance+Top Engine.

As a foreward, A thought I have had is putting In 1-2 Elspeths in place of Some Decrees

Counterstill:

Instant:
Counterspell x4
Force of Will x4
Swords to plowshares x4
Diabolic Edict x3
Brainstorm x3

Some explainations:
Counterspell and Force of Will are auto includes in my opinion, its hard to have a control deck without, well, control magic.
Swords to Plowshares and Diabolic Edict, Are here for removal, in my meta Sea Stompy, Goblins and Merfolks are very prolific so having a strong suit of removal main board seemed a must.
Brainstorm was at 4 at one point, But I started finding it more and more just being force fodder, Cutting it for some more streamlining at least in my testing seemed to work better. Other testing may have proved otherwise, its one of the tweaks I have made I am unsure of.

Sorcery:
Decree of Justice x3
Wrath of God x3

Some explainations:

Decree is a win condition, and can also be used to stabilize, Though more for my meta, there are a lot of homebrew weenie decks, and the ability to drop so many chump blockers with it and to win out with it when I cannot seem to find a wrath is good.
Wrath Board Sweep and Removal, as I said earlier I play in a meta with a lot of aggro decks, so sweepers just seem like a good include

Enchantment:
Standstill x4
Oblivion Ring x4
Counterbalance x3


Some explainations:
Standstill DUH lol
O-Ring Using it for removal, I know its not a definite answer, but this deck gets hurt really bad by a Chalice for 1 or two, as well as Aether Vial.
Counterbalance I dont really know to be honest, I liked the idea of Counter Balance and Top in the countertop lists I saw and wanted to try it in a package like this, So far local testing is working very well, but it is not too varied.

Artifacts:
Sensei's Diving Top x3


Some explainations:

Top helps with card quality and is kinda needed for the Counter Top Engine.

Lands:

Island x4
Plains x3
swamp x2

Mishra's Factory x4
Creeping Tar Pits x2
Celestial Colonnade x1
Tundra x2
Watery Grave x2 (these will be underground Seas if I can get them)
Reliquary tower x2

Some explainations:
Factory is a win condition, plain and simpe
Tar Pits In the early inception of the deck I was using them to actually win games, so far they are still fairly good for me, and are also a major reason for wanting to include Elspeth, going from a 3/2 unblockable to a 6/5 unblockable flier just seems good.
Celestial Colonnade has won me slow control matchups before, a 4/4 with flying and vigilance has helped tremendously, I do find it too costly but am unsure what to replace with.
Reliquary Tower funny enough I was finding myself in control and actually losing cards after standstill being broken due to having too many in hand. I havent had a chance to test with them too much though they seem to be working fairly well in the few games I have played.


Well thanks for looking at it guys.

[GGoober]

Guys, with the meta being the unholy trio of Gobs/Zoo/Merfolks (some Elves I guess), I was relooking into an ancient discussion on a card that was abandoned:

Starstorm

Against Gob, it's an instant WoG for 2RR. Against Merfolks with 1 Lord, it's a WoG for 2RR and is flexibly scaled later in the game. It's a semi wrath on Nacatl/Lavamancers/smaller goyfs for 3RR, and can probably kill anything if you make landdrops. Regardless, the key feature is it's wishable and INSTANT. Tsabo's Decree had been played in older lists to some success but I never tested that card out. It seems too mana intensive. Starstorm at 2RR which functions essentially as a WoG against certain decks at Instant speed seems not to shabby right now.

I'm looking forward to testing 2 in the SB for a 3Wish MD build. And postboard against the relevant matchups, the x2 starstorm will be moved maindeck against the tribal matchup.

The real drawback I see to Starstorm is requiring RR, so it only works for UWr builds that play 4 or more red sources in their decks. It so happens to work with my manabase configuration for my current list (a page earlier) since I play with x3 Helixes maindeck. In my current manabase configuration, I play 3 Volcanic Island, 1 Plateau, 3 Tundra, 2 Plains, 2 Island so my R/W split is pretty even (ideally I should only play 2 Volcanic Island, but I want to consistently cast Helix on turn 2/3 against relevant decks to buy tempo).

@Beautunox: Your list looks more like Countertop Walker, which you would probably get best discussion in that thread. Landstill usually finds it hard to support Countertop due to the configuration of removal/counters and the cmc-spread. If it does try to accomodate countertop, it will just look like Countertop Walker and less like Landstill. Regardless, some feedback on your manabase. Tarpit is good, perhaps in some testing, but I would not play him at all. Coming into play tapped is a drawback but more importantly, spending 3 mana and tapping him to attack is a huge resource/mana loss i.e. you have to have a ton of lands and have mana open in order to attack with him yet counter opposing threats. I guess you can use Countertop as your counter-engine, but by then, any manland irregardless will be good under Countertop. The main problem with Tarpit is the fact that he gets killed by much more removal: Bolt/Lavamancer. This will be huge tempo loss against the relevant matchups where you are tapping out. If you do want to play a Come-into-play tapped manland, Celestial Colonnade is the best out there, but even then, playing tapped-lands don't sound appealing to me in this format. Reliquary Tower is strictly a win-more card that does nothing. If you have more than 7 cards early to late game, you are in a winning position. Also, with Landstill, there is no reason to go above 7 cards. It's a deck that needs relevant cards, not a huge hand. For the same reason, if I have 4-6 cards, I actually don't want to use my Standstills or Brainstorms/Jace to overdraw into cards, overextend and tapping out to lose to spells my opponents play. I hope you understand what I'm saying by Reliquary Tower is a win-more card that really doesn't do anything.

[Beatusnox]

Guys, with the meta being the unholy trio of Gobs/Zoo/Merfolks (some Elves I guess), I was relooking into an ancient discussion on a card that was abandoned:

Starstorm

Against Gob, it's an instant WoG for 2RR. Against Merfolks with 1 Lord, it's a WoG for 2RR and is flexibly scaled later in the game. It's a semi wrath on Nacatl/Lavamancers/smaller goyfs for 3RR, and can probably kill anything if you make landdrops. Regardless, the key feature is it's wishable and INSTANT. Tsabo's Decree had been played in older lists to some success but I never tested that card out. It seems too mana intensive. Starstorm at 2RR which functions essentially as a WoG against certain decks at Instant speed seems not to shabby right now.

I'm looking forward to testing 2 in the SB for a 3Wish MD build. And postboard against the relevant matchups, the x2 starstorm will be moved maindeck against the tribal matchup.

The real drawback I see to Starstorm is requiring RR, so it only works for UWr builds that play 4 or more red sources in their decks. It so happens to work with my manabase configuration for my current list (a page earlier) since I play with x3 Helixes maindeck. In my current manabase configuration, I play 3 Volcanic Island, 1 Plateau, 3 Tundra, 2 Plains, 2 Island so my R/W split is pretty even (ideally I should only play 2 Volcanic Island, but I want to consistently cast Helix on turn 2/3 against relevant decks to buy tempo).

@Beautunox: Your list looks more like Countertop Walker, which you would probably get best discussion in that thread. Landstill usually finds it hard to support Countertop due to the configuration of removal/counters and the cmc-spread. If it does try to accomodate countertop, it will just look like Countertop Walker and less like Landstill. Regardless, some feedback on your manabase. Tarpit is good, perhaps in some testing, but I would not play him at all. Coming into play tapped is a drawback but more importantly, spending 3 mana and tapping him to attack is a huge resource/mana loss i.e. you have to have a ton of lands and have mana open in order to attack with him yet counter opposing threats. I guess you can use Countertop as your counter-engine, but by then, any manland irregardless will be good under Countertop. The main problem with Tarpit is the fact that he gets killed by much more removal: Bolt/Lavamancer. This will be huge tempo loss against the relevant matchups where you are tapping out. If you do want to play a Come-into-play tapped manland, Celestial Colonnade is the best out there, but even then, playing tapped-lands don't sound appealing to me in this format. Reliquary Tower is strictly a win-more card that does nothing. If you have more than 7 cards early to late game, you are in a winning position. Also, with Landstill, there is no reason to go above 7 cards. It's a deck that needs relevant cards, not a huge hand. For the same reason, if I have 4-6 cards, I actually don't want to use my Standstills or Brainstorms/Jace to overdraw into cards, overextend and tapping out to lose to spells my opponents play. I hope you understand what I'm saying by Reliquary Tower is a win-more card that really doesn't do anything.


I understand the tower it was a card that i was iffy on to begin with, if I drop the tops and counter balances what would I place instead of them? as well as the Tar-pits? I am getting to the point where I am running out of money so I am unsure of how well I will be able to get ahold of Seas for the pits, maybe two more graves? but that just seems like too many shock lands. I would like to keep the tops the more I think on it for card quality, but If I drop the 3 counter balance, I can have 3 Decree 2 elspeth, and maybe a baby jace?

Could I bring in pierces from the sideboard for the three slots and then put 3 more anti-hate cards in the side?

The tower I am thinking I will replace with basics. for now.

thanks for input guys. Trying to get this tuned to where I want it for April and May.

[Reagens]

starstorm is waaaaaaaaaay to color intensive.

I see no particular difference between 2RR for starstorm and 6 mana of which one is B.They do play spell pierce you know...
All tribal decks that is targetted by this card have wasteland (merfolk) or wasteland AND rishadan port (gobs)
I'd rather play firespout if you are really looking for a wrath effect against tribal (and I don't even like that much as well).
I tested a few times with tsabo's decree and I think it's win more. If you get to 6 mana against gobs/merfolk you're winning anyway.

Played a tournament this weekend with 48 people.
I played the list from Patrick Beccera with a few minor adjustments (no 4th color, black as a splash for EE@3)

First round 1-0 against counter/top. I had control through game 1 and he refused to give up so I played it out.
2nd Round: 2-1 against storm combo. Very lucky with game 2-3 always the canonist and he had to mull to 5 game 3 (I went to 6)
3rd round: 2-0 against aggro rock. Landstill has the CA that his deck lacks.
4th round: 2-0 against monoB something. Twice I had brainstorm to hide my standstill and win from there...
5th round ID
6th round ID

Quarters: Burn/ Don't know how he got in, but I desperatly needed to find cunning wish soon. I win game 1 and 3 because he refuses to burn my jace netting me tons of CA (but no cunning wish). Twice I won because I plowed a factory with elspeth boost.

Semis: I scoop to someone who was interested in the byes for BOM which could be won.

I was very happy with the deck (except for not finding cunning wish when I needed it the most) and I was even satisfied with the enlightened tutor in the SB (it gave me a wastelock against my first opponent).

[Jason]

Played UWr Landstill in a 21-person tournament yesterday. I went 2-1-2 and finished 12th. I was unlucky in the round I lost and one of the rounds I drew (I played poorly in the other draw; I don't know if playing better would have changed the outcome, but it may have)

Here is the list:
//Land (24)
2 Plains
2 Island
1 Academy Ruins
1 Arid Mesa
1 Celestial Colonnade
1 Dust Bowl
4 Flooded Strand
1 Karakas
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Plateau
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Tolaria West
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island

//Artifact (3)
3 Engineered Explosives

//Enchantment (6)
1 Humility
1 Moat
4 Standstill

//Instant (21)
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
1 Fact or Fiction
4 Force of Will
2 Path to Exile
3 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares

//Sorcery (3)
1 Decree of Justice
2 Wrath of God

//Planeswalker (3)
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

//Sideboard (15)
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Peacekeeper
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Jace Beleren
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Firespout
1 Tormod's Crypt

Round 1 - Robert playing URG Tempo Thresh (ish) with Crucible of Worlds (allegedly; I never saw it)

He won game 1 because we were both in top-deck mode. I drew 5 lands in a row. So did he, but 2 of his lands were Mishra's Factory... I ended the game with triple Standstill in hand. *sad face*

I won game 2. He played basic Island and went to Brainstorm at my end step, so I REBed it... I figured he would have: 1) played a dual land on turn one; 2) saved the Brainstorm for a fetchland. I was correct, as he didn't draw a land for many turns. I beat him down to 8 with a lone Mishra's Factory before he finds a Wasteland for it. As soon as he found a Scalding Tarn, he fetched out a Volcanic. I Tolaria West for Dust Bowl. He plays another Wasteland, but I play Colonnade, forcing him to use the Wasteland on that instead of the Dust Bowl. Karma. I find Vendilion Clique and win the ball meet.

We didn't have time to finish game 3.

0-0-1 (1-1-1 in games)

Round 2 - Jon playing BW Tempo

He wins game 1 on the back of turn 1 Vial. I land Humility but keep drawing nothing but land. He drops a Bitterblossom. I find a Moat and cast it. We play draw-go, with me drawing nothing but land, for about 5 turns. At this point I have ~30 cards left in library and have only seen 1 Force of Will, 2 Counterspell, 3 Swords to Plowshares, 2 Wrath of God, Humility, Moat, Fact or Fiction, 2 Brainstorm. That's it - the rest were all land. He Vindicates the Humility; I don't have a counter; I lose game 1.

I win game 2, despite him having turn 1 Vial and turn 4 and 5 Bitterblossom. I stick Humility and Moat, and his life lowers due to double Bitterblossom. I get EE recursion going, wipe his board, and win with Mishra's Factory.

I lose game 3. He again has turn 1 Vial. I have EE and Academy Ruins but he Extirpates my Explosives. A turn later, he Extirpates Force of Will. A couple turns later, he Extirpates Counterspell. I can't stop Vindicate anymore and I just lose.

0-1-1 (2-3-1 in games)

Round 3 - Heidi playing Elves! (w/ Natural Order into Progenitus)

I lose game 1. She went for turn 3 Natural Order, which I countered. I then kept her guys off the board with Wrath, Swords and EE but never found any business. Eventually, I forget to return EE to the top of my library when she has double Elvish Archdruid and an Imperious Perfect. I then proceed to lose to the swarm of guys.

I win game 2 thanks to turn 4 Moat, turn 5 Peacekeeper. She scoops.

We don't have time to finish game 3, although, I think I would have eventually won because I had turn 3 Peacekeeper.

0-1-2 (3-4-2 in games)

Round 4 - Ches playing Mono Red Goblins

Game 1 I win because he goes "Mountain-go" on turn 1. I eventually have a stale board and cast Jace (the first of the tournament!) and fateseal him out of the game (while poking him with Factory, of course)

Game 2 I lose because he has turn 1 Vial, so I have to fetch out a red dual for Firespout. I also need WW on turn 4 for Humility. Unfortunately, after I Firespout on turn 3, he casts Blood Moon. I have a basic Plains in play and an EE in hand but I never find one of my two basic Islands.

Game 3 I win. The situation was similar to game 2, except he didn't have Blood Moon. I eot Enlightened Tutor for Moat and cast it on turn 4. He jokes about having to burn me out with Siege Gang Commander. Still no Blood Moon for him, so I cast the Humility I had the whole game on turn 5.

1-1-2 (5-5-2 in games)

Round 5 - Neil playing UB ANT

Game 1 I land turn 2 Standstill. A turn 3 Mishra's Factory, followed by turn 6, cycle Decree of Justice for one guy, turns the clock on. When he eventually "goes for it" a few turns later, I reveal my 10 cards of 2x Force of Will, 2x Brainstorm, 2x Counterspell, Spell Snare, 3 irrelevant cards. Yeah. I got there.

Game 2 I kept a hand of 4 land, Ethersworn Canonist, Jace TMS, Swords to Plowshares. He did nothing on turn one and two. I cast Canonist on my turn 2. He scooped.

2-1-2 (7-5-2 in games)

What I liked:
*3 EE was great. I always wanted to see it.
*The Tolaria West package was great all day. Throughout the day, I T. Wested for EE, Dust Bowl and Academy Ruins. The Karakas never upset me either. The first opponent actually Wastelanded it because he was scared of Vendilion Clique shenanigans.
*3x Counterspell was solid. Spell Snare was getting boarded out... a lot.
*Vendilion Clique is amazing!
*The Enlightened Tutor in the sideboard is great at finding Moat, Humility and sideboard cards like Canonist and Tormod's Crypt.
*Decks are still unprepared to fight against Peacekeeper.

What I think could be improved/what annoyed me:
*The deck needs more TMS. I never saw one until I didn't really need it.
*I cycled Decree of Justice once during the whole tournament - it was against storm. I had it in hand during another game, but I was always trying to play catch-up. Had it been Elspeth, I would have rolled it out.
*I need more card advantage spells. I found myself boarding out Standstill (in some, if not all, numbers) most games. +1 Fact or Fiction is almost necessary.
*I still don't like Path to Exile. I don't like giving the opponent more land, especially if he has missed land drops.
*I don't have green mana to Firespout away Bitterblossom tokens.

Overall, I liked how the list played; I just need to make a few minor changes if I decide to play it in D.C. this weekend.

[Adan]

I went 5-1-1 with UWg Landstill yesterday.

I basically ripped off Wafo-Tapa's List that he piloted to a 3rd Place finish in Annecy during BoM and modified the SB a littlebit:

4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Day of Judgment
1 Wrath of God
2 Humility
4 Standstill
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Flooded Strand
1 Glacial Fortress
2 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Plains
2 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

SB: 4 Meddling Mage
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Spell Pierce
SB: 4 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Wrath of God

I kicked out the Faerie Macabres for real GY Hate and maxed out Meddling Mages because I was afraid of losing to combo. Well, combo is still a unfavorable matchup, but it's better than nothing.

Round 1 against Canadian Thresh: 2-1

Basiclands > Canadian Thresh. g2 I lost because he had a counter for everything I played plus Pyroblast for my backups. That sucked a bit. g1 was also a close one. I won though Fatesealing with Jace g1 and with Elspeth g3.

1-0-0

Round 2 against Death and Taxes : 2-1

g1 he casts an Armageddon with Crucible out. Sounds nice, but is absolutely self-humiliating when your opp has got Elspeth and Jace out. Nice play...
g2 he did exactly the same thing, but I only had Elspeth which he legend-ruled 2 Turns after. I then lost to a Serra Avenger carrying the swiss knife.
g3 I can't really remember what happened exactly, but I believe I won via Elspeth and a flying Soldier.

2-0-0

Round 3 against DDFT: 1-2

So I'm playing Christoph "Nemavera" Alsheimer (don't get his name wrong with the Alzheimer-disease, yo!). Even though he acts like he has no clue about his deck, I believe he's the best comboplayer here in Germany. So I guess I'll lose this one.

g1 was not really spectacular, a lot of dead cards clog up my hand and he eventually goes Chant -> a lot of spells -> Tendrils. Short and simple.
g2 I open with a Mishra and start beatdown from Turn 2 on. He doesn't do anything except peeking a lot inti his SDT, but he can't fight though all my counters that i colected with 2 Standstills (which he broke with cantrips to shape his hand).
g3 was also a close one, it went like g2. At the critical point where I had 2 Mishra's and he was on 4 life, it meant tha he had 1 turn left to kill me. The turn before he duressed my Counterspell and passed the turn and I tpdecked another CSpell, so I felt safe. He went Ritual, Ritual, Ritual, Rain of Filth which I all let resolve because I thought he would go for something like IT or Doomsday which I had 2 Spell Snares and a CSpell for.
But then...

"OMGSPAGHETTIMONSTERINMYFACEWTF*

2-1-0

Round 4 against Death and Taxes: 2-1

g1 And again another Death and Taxes. He doesn't really have anything impressive and I control him away with Jace & Elspeth after a Day of Judgement wiped the board clean.
g2 I get screwed by Wasteland and 2 Ghost Quarters (Ghost Quarter is really bad when he got 2 Leonin Arbiters out...). I'm able to get out of the pinch with an EE, but I eventually got myself killed after I dropped a Standstill with Mishra out vs. a lone Mother of Runes. He peeled another GQ from the top and I had to break my own Standstill. He had enough supply to kill me. I could still beat myself for dropping the Standstill.
g3 I can manage to get out of a pinch with a sweeper and fateseal him with Jace until I can ultimate him.

3-1-0

Round 5 against Goblins: 2-0

g1 I keep a strong hand and he goes Mountain -> Aether Vial. Fuck. I FoW. He then goes Land, Aether Vial. I FoW again. Then he drops a Lackey which I StoP. I rip a Standstill from the top, YESSS. He tried a few threats which I can counter or remove, then I drop an Elspeth against which he has to overextend. That was the point where Day of Judgement hit him hard. I drop big Jace atterwards and from that point on he only draws Mountains.

g2 goes pretty much like g1. I in the midgame he goes double Lackey with Warchief and attacks me. I let all the Lackey connect and destroy him with Wrath and an Elspeth afterwards.

4-1-0

Round 6 against Dreadstill: 2-1

g1 he snap keeps a 1 land hand and doesn't do anything until my Elspeth kills him. He had his 2nd landdrop in Turn 8 or something. Tht game was rather a unvoluntary donation.
g2 I lose because he managed to lock me out with Counterbalance and I never find green mana for my K.Grips.
g3 was extremely close, I got out of manaproblems and was able to deal with Mishra, 2 Trinkets and a Nought. By activating Top and exchanging it in response, I was able to deal with Nought and still have another removal on top to deal with it in case he can counter or stifle the EE. The Nought went down and he we were both in topdeckmode (with me having SDT). So when I replay SDT, he FoWs it. That means green light for my Elspeth I'll draw afterwards. It resolves and he just can't win against the flying soldier.

5-1-0

Round 6 against GW Pseudosurvival: 0-0

It's my honoable teammate Stefan "spiritofthewretch" Czolk. I still haven't managed to beat him once lifetime, but due to his hangover, we ID and secure our 2 SPOD-Top8s in the biggest Hassloch tournament so far.

5-1-1, Place 5 out of 65.

Thoughts:

- the green Splash was cool, K.Grip is totally underrated and was good all day long, especially against the Dreadstill-"mirror"
- this deck doesn't really need a red splash for Firespout, it's already good enough against any creature-based deck.
- the manabase is extremely good. It's not diluted by Wastelands (aka too many offcolor sources) and Wasteland was never a problem.
- Planeswalkers add a new dimension to Landstill, I'd never play without them ever again.

...and well, I just lost to a hardcast Emrakul which is kinda embarrising, but Landstill is still extremely solid (as it ever was actually).

[lilboggs675]

Ill probably play something like this at a weekly legacy event this week at Get your game on.
blue cards: 22
1cc: 15
2cc: 8
3cc: 3
4cc: 5
5cc: 4
3 counterspell
2 counterbalance
3 sensei's divining top
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 standstill
1 moat
1 humility
1 enlightened tutor
1 crucible of worlds
1 engineered explosives
1 pithing needle
2 trinket mage
1 elspeth knight errant
2 jace, the mind sculptor
4 brainstorm
4 force of will
2 spell snare
4 flooded strand
4 tundra
2 island
1 plains
3 wasteland
4 mishera's factory
1 volcanic island
4 scalding tarn
1 plateau
sideboard
4 etherworn canonist
2 firespout
2 red elemental blast
1 wrath of god
2 hydroblast
1 relic of progenitus
2 spell pierce
1 path to exile

[Arsenal]

In the UWr lists, do Elspeth and Jace 2.0 just push Ajani V. into unplayability? I mean, despite having red and white in his mana cost, he's a beast of a control card, often causing your opponent to move past a single-threat strategy, and walking right into your sweeper. Or he's a Lightning Helix on a stick. Or a one-sided Armageddon.

[Adan]

In the UWr lists, do Elspeth and Jace 2.0 just push Ajani V. into unplayability? I mean, despite having red and white in his mana cost, he's a beast of a control card, often causing your opponent to move past a single-threat strategy, and walking right into your sweeper.

So do Elspeth and Jace. Ajani's is simply not good enough since it's ability is too situational (I mean, the permanent must have been tapped before, whcih means that the creature you want to shut off must have attacked you at least once already. And that's significant if it's a big KotR.).

Being a Lightning Helix on a stick also doesn't really add anything to it, there's no chance you are ever going to burn out someone with that because you play Swords to Plowshares. It is only good against a few small creatures (and that's where Elspeth does the same thing, but less situational).

Jace is just bonkers, he basically makes it impossible for your opponent to topdeck himself out of a pinch and that ability is the most important one. Paired with his ultimate it's just ridiculous because at the same time he kills the opponent no matter how the lifetotals are etc. (which is also very important because - truth be told - Landstill has no clock).

And that's why Elspeth is also good again, it turns your Mishra into a 5/5 flyer which is... well, a clock.

All the planeswalkers but Ajani are able to definitely end the game within 6 turns, Ajani can't (well, actually Jace needs a few more turns, but since the opponent will simply use his crap as a library after the ultimate, nothing really can happen to you).

[GGoober]

g1 I keep a strong hand and he goes Mountain -> Aether Vial. Fuck. I FoW. He then goes Land, Aether Vial. I FoW again. Then he drops a Lackey which I StoP. I rip a Standstill from the top, YESSS. He tried a few threats which I can counter or remove, then I drop an Elspeth against which he has to overextend. That was the point where Day of Judgement hit him hard. I drop big Jace atterwards and from that point on he only draws Mountains.


This made my day. I love it when you show aggro players that they drawing the nuts =/= control drawing the nuts.

I like the solid straightforward list. The 4cmc bombs look really strong with the extra 3 Spell Snares. Was there a time you wanted to play with Wishes in the list? Or was 2 Tops good enough to not play with lists?

[Felidae]

Isn't this just the stockpile list that Wapo Tappa played@BOM?
Btw some things bother me: 4 Standstill paired with 0 Decrees and 0 Wastelands doesn't seem right, at least in my eye (didn't Wafo lost in the semi final against Dreadstill do to this?)

Good to see you and Czolk kicking some ass against and I can only cross my fingers to read an epic tour report once more (you know the one where Magic is only a side story :) ).

[Adan]

When Clemens was still active we used to play UWb Landstill with Cunning Wishes. But back at that time Zoo and Merfolk were not existent, so you could efford to play Cunning Wish. Beating the control mirror was also of great importance (and well, the black splash was mainly for 3 Extirpates) and Legacy was pretty random (well, it is still...), so Cunning Wishes were flexible enough for the metagame (especially because you could fetch Pule of the Fields to get yourself back into the game). But now Cunning Wish feels clunky. And I feel like I need a well-composed sideboard instead of a wishboard full of singleton wishtargets for the current metagame.

Sensei's Divining Top was great, it saved my ass about 4 times that day, fixing my mana and digging for bombs. It was also a good bait against Dreadstill to resolve my Elspeth which got me the game.

Decree is still playable, but Elspeth is simply the better card. Most of the time DoJ acted like a cantripping Fog whereas Elspeth really wins the game.
But I absolutely see your point about the lack of Wasteland, it might cost me a game in a future tournament because I will have a disadvantage when it comes to "who has more manlands?", but the manabase was the most stable Landstill-manabase I've ever played (well I did miss green mana for Grips sometimes, but I never had manaproblems except for g2 vs. Dreadstill which i got locked out by CBalance randomly anyway).

I agree that not having Wasteland can be bad vs one matchup or two, but the manabase is so stable that I'd rather bring that one into a big tournament than a base with Wastelands that can be dead and offcolor way more often.

And yes, Wafo-Tapa lost against Van Phanel because Van Phanel lucksacked 3 Mishra's IN A ROW from the top.

I mean, it can happen, but then it will be something you will go on tilt for 5 minutes and afterwards everything's cool again (except if you have lost against a random hardcast Emrakul).

[The Treefolk Master]

I mean, it can happen, but then it will be something you will go on tilt for 5 minutes and afterwards everything's cool again (except if you have lost against a random hardcast Emrakul).

That's nearly on the same level as loosing to Kodama of the North Tree...

[Felidae]

And yes, Wafo-Tapa lost against Van Phanel because Van Phanel lucksacked 3 Mishra's IN A ROW from the top.

But then again Phanel has 7 answers to his oppponent Mishras (4 Mishra +3 Wasteland) so eventually he will draw more of them :S.

Wafos manabase is indeed aswesome (I'm a big fan of Glacier Fortress as the 5th Tundra) and nearly unscrewable.

[Adan]

But then again Phanel has 7 answers to his oppponent Mishras (4 Mishra +3 Wasteland) so eventually he will draw more of them :S.

That is true. In theory, that is. I once had a match vs. Aggroloam with Canadian Thresh where I had 16 outs to immediately win the game, otherwise I'd lose. I drawed a Ponder instead which raised the odds, but I failed to find any of the outs. Since that day I knew: Fuck statistics and chances of probability!


Wafos manabase is indeed aswesome (I'm a big fan of Glacier Fortress as the 5th Tundra) and nearly unscrewable.

It IS unscrewable which is the reason I'd rather bring that base to a big tournament instead of some diluted manabase with 3 Wastelands or the TolariaWest-DustBowl-AcademyRuins toolbox (although I'm tickled to play the toolbox if i can get my hands on some Crucibles again, I don't have any for some reason...).

@ Treefolk Master:

Uhm. I know. Stop reminding me. :X

[GGoober]

Fuck statistics and chances of probability!

How do I draw 0-1 land hands (playing 23/24 lands) over 30% of games and win my die-rolls 30% of the time over a course of 3 years playing Landstill? I have no fucking idea.

Adan, did you find the 4th Standstill to beat more aggro games than being a dead card early game wishing it was something else? I think Tapo's main success with his build is:

"If you can't fuck my manabase, I'mma hit 4 mana and fuck the decks playing creatures". Seems to be a good philosophy given that most of the time I've lost in Landstill is being owned by Wastelands or missing land drops or having to mull my retarded 0-1 land hands 30% of the time.

Yes, going to QQ just a little more.

[Adan]

Adan, did you find the 4th Standstill to beat more aggro games than being a dead card early game wishing it was something else? I think Tapo's main success with his build is:

"If you can't fuck my manabase, I'mma hit 4 mana and fuck the decks playing creatures". Seems to be a good philosophy given that most of the time I've lost in Landstill is being owned by Wastelands or missing land drops or having to mull my retarded 0-1 land hands 30% of the time.

Actually not since Standstill allows you to be a bit more aggressive with your resources (see the scenario where I FoW'd 2 Aether Vials). In g2 I boarded out one for the 3rd Wrath-effect, though, but I like the card a lot. You just have to keep Vial off the table and everything's fine.

And well yes, the stability is the main benefit you get from neglecting Wastelands. And this stability will win you more games than Wastelands.

I actually dislike Wasteland in a build like that because it basically doesn't do anything but fighting off opposing manlands (and realistically there's just 1 matchup where that matters: Gayfolk). Landstill simply can't take advantage of the tempoadvantage Wasteland generates. Wasteland also lacks synergies in UWx Landstill because you don't play cards like Crucible, Life from the Loam, Stifle and/or Repeal.

[Master Shake]

I actually dislike Wasteland in a build like that because it basically doesn't do anything but fighting off opposing manlands (and realistically there's just 1 matchup where that matters: Gayfolk). Landstill simply can't take advantage of the tempoadvantage Wasteland generates. Wasteland also lacks synergies in UWx Landstill because you don't play cards like Crucible, Life from the Loam, Stifle and/or Repeal.

Who doesn't play Crucible in UWx? I believe those people are going about it incorrectly.

Also, Repeal is trash, you could make the same argument for Repeal in any instance buy just say "Remand" and it's still equally bad.

@Fildae How does playing one additional, unfetchable land make the mana unscrewable? I've seen his mana base and the lack of Waste effects is terrible. There was a time when Landstill didn't need to worry about opposing manabases, but this certainly isn't that time.

@Arsenal I've been looking back at Ajani in aggro heavy environments but I haven't quite tried him out again yet. He is best when paired with a couple of Wrath effects which is a style I'm not quite ready to go back to, but he certainly still has merit.

[Felidae]

It's not about the Fortress but rather about the straight forward base:
8 Fetch
6 Duals
1 pseudo Dual (Fortress is a solid card, sure you can't fetch it but then again you have 4 Tundras left..., also being Choke proofst seems fair enough in my eyes).
4 Basics
4 Factorys

Together with 2 Tops (no I don't like Tops in LS but let's not start to argue about this again..) this base can survive multiple Wastelands and still cast there 4cc bombs quite freequently.

Also you might have noticed that I was suggesting that he should run Wasteland, at least they haven't been a problem for me, so far.
For reference I'm currently running this:
4 Tundra
1 Fortress
1 USea
1 Scrubland
2 Island
2 Plains
4 Strand
2 Delta
4 Factory
2 Wasteland
1 E.Dragon
1 Crucible

[Adan]

Who doesn't play Crucible in UWx? I believe those people are going about it incorrectly.

It's simply not necessary to play Crucible since the manabase as such is already stable enough to survive against tempo-oriented decks. That leaves control-mirrors as the last matchup where you would want it and I have not played a control mirror for aeons (except for Supreme Blue, but I'm still undefeated even without Crucible iirc).


Also, Repeal is trash, you could make the same argument for Repeal in any instance buy just say "Remand" and it's still equally bad.

Repeal - Wasteland can handle a permanent by (color-)screwing the opponent
Repeal - Standstill is obv.
Repeal - Sensei's Divining Top has nice synergies and tricks

And furthermore Repeal helps you to get around Blood Moons or reset Aether Vials that might be dangerous otherwise. it's also nice to have against Counterbalances which seem to be going rampant in the states atm.
This is far more than Remand could do, yo.


@Fildae How does playing one additional, unfetchable land make the mana unscrewable? I've seen his mana base and the lack of Waste effects is terrible. There was a time when Landstill didn't need to worry about opposing manabases, but this certainly isn't that time.

Well, in what way does playing 2 Wastelands fix the problem of the opponent having a manabase? O_o

From what I observed last Hassloch, there are only Aether Vial- and Tempo-decks where this argument is rudimentary valid, the key point here is that these decks have about 8 cards that will hinder you from hitting 4 Mana:

Stifle-Waste (Gayfolk and Canadian Thresh)
Wasteland-Ports (Goblins)

I really don't see where I'd have the time to use a Wasteland to destroy an opposing land or tap 3 mana to play Crucible which is a card that has simply hasn't any great impact on the game except fixing your mana (which is basically the same thing SDT can do). Not to mention that Aether Vials and Stifle will render your Wastelands useless and you will simply be giving away a turn.

I THINK (because you basically didn't say anything) that your point is that Crucible is good against tempodecks. But we already have a card that is even cheaper and more efficient against tempodecks: Sensei's Divining Top.

But against any other deck it is way more easier and efficient to hinder your opponent from building up via permission instead of attacking the manabase (because that is something Landstill can't do properly and is contrary to the main gameplan of building up yourself and just win).
Screwing the opponent away with Crucible was okay in the past where you didn't want your opponent to be able to drop his bombs in case he topdecks any, but nowadays you have a card that prevents your opponent from topdecking: Jace.

[Hitman82]

I actually dislike Wasteland in a build like that because it basically doesn't do anything but fighting off opposing manlands (and realistically there's just 1 matchup where that matters: Gayfolk). Landstill simply can't take advantage of the tempoadvantage Wasteland generates. Wasteland also lacks synergies in UWx Landstill because you don't play cards like Crucible, Life from the Loam, Stifle and/or Repeal.

Quoted for truth. Wasteland in Landstill isn't worth the slots.


I've seen his mana base and the lack of Waste effects is terrible. There was a time when Landstill didn't need to worry about opposing manabases, but this certainly isn't that time.

Why. I don't see where you're coming from.

@Adan - Have you considered Exploration? I've found it hard to lose games once I hit six mana. It's getting to the mana before you're dead that can be hard to do.

[GGoober]

Crucible is good in Landstill but not a necessary must IMO. I've been playing 1-2 Crucibles in my lists for the recent year. It's great. But in Tapo's list, it's not needed. Top ensures you'll hit 4 mana with your stable manabase configuration.

Tapo's manabase demonstrates 1 thing: straightforward consistency into 4 lands on turn 4. It's not interested in hitting 4+ mana (but could use mana if it needs to). Most Landstill lists play Crucible because Wasteland is still a good card in landstill, but without crucible, either crucible/wasteland become weaker without the other. Tapo's philosophy from his decklist is clear: get to 4 mana on turn 4 (no later), drop a bomb and win.

The other successful recent landstill lists also have the same philosophy, but they will have harder time hitting 4 mana on turn 4 (Tapo's stability is really on playing x8 fetchlands with 2 Tops). But the recent landstill lists have an additional focus: I can recycle all my business spells (via academy Ruins or crucible or using Wish to grab a lot of relevant business). It's still a strong approach, so obviously it's willing to sacrifice the manabase stability for the end-game inevitability. Tapo's list doesn't have inevitability, but it plays so much 4cmc bombs and being able to hit 4mana with huge stability on turn 4, makes the deck feel like it's always going to establish control with a planeswalker.

[Misplayer]

With Wafo-Tapa's manabase: Why not split 2 Windswept Heath/2 Blue Fetch instead of 4x Misty Rainforest? Or at least 3/1? I would think you'd want more than 4 ways to fetch your basic Plains. Is there a reason for the current configuration that I'm not seeing?

[Neuad]

How can you say 1-2 Wastelands are wasted slots, when many a control matchup can be won by resolving Crucible with a waste? Or even just wasting say a 4 color CB list off X lands/color when they are trying to be to mana hungry?


Also, this is the best deck ever to play on MWS. Block with Factory under humility.

<Scrub> It dies also, it's a 1/1
<Me> Man-Lands retain power/toughness under humility due to layering
<System> Player Lost

Standstill also creates fun adventures.

[Adan]

How can you say 1-2 Wastelands are wasted slots, when many a control matchup can be won by resolving Crucible with a waste?

I think control matchups are decided by who has got the planeswalkers, not by the one who has got a Crucible. Crucible and/or Wasteland just add something to the resource-war but don't win the game. Elspeth simply wins and Jace can do both (resource-war & winning).


Or even just wasting say a 4 color CB list off X lands/color when they are trying to be to mana hungry?

4color CB plays White for Swords, Red for Firespout and Green for Goyfs. Do you care about any of these cards? Nope. So there's no need to attack the colors or the manabase. The only cards that are relevant are Counterbalance and Jace here. That's all. I mean sure, Wasteland is nice to have here, but not really necessary.

[GGoober]

How can you say 1-2 Wastelands are wasted slots, when many a control matchup can be won by resolving Crucible with a waste? Or even just wasting say a 4 color CB list off X lands/color when they are trying to be to mana hungry?


Also, this is the best deck ever to play on MWS. Block with Factory under humility.

<Scrub> It dies also, it's a 1/1
<Me> Man-Lands retain power/toughness under humility due to layering
<System> Player Lost

Standstill also creates fun adventures.

It's not really screwing out colors in CBTop where Wasteland is not as relevant. If you are pro-actively trying to nuke them UU manabase on turns 1-3, you will probably lose harder to CBTop. This is because of 2 simple fact:

1) CBTop has 4 Brainstorm/4 Top to dig. All they need is the 2nd blue, they will drop a 2cmc enchantment and screw you over. In fact, you want to develop your manabase asap, keeping colorless sources whenever possible to have a chance to blow out Counterbalance with the sunburst tricks with colorless lands (or paying double mana of the same color). The key issue is if you are wasting them early, you're setting yourself back more than they are, since they only need 2 lands to get the enchantment out, while you need about 3-4 lands to answer it (either with EE or Cunning Wish or Grips postboard)

2) Wastelock is mediocore at best against Countertop. It is hard to get Wastelock against Countertop assuming Counterbalance is usually going to come online in most games, if not they will try their best to get it online.

In other matchups, the true strength of wasteland is never in the early game. It's in the mid-late game, where you can afford land drops to start hitting your opponent's (this usually happens at least on turn 4, assuming you played Crucible turn 3). There are rare cases where early wastelands are useful, e.g. Zoo not playing anything on turn 1, then go for it, or against an opponent who mulled to 5 with no first turn play. The biggest reason to play wasteland is to make your standstills stronger, reducing the chances it becomes a dead card, against opposing mutavaults, factories etc.

[Shawn]

I played UWr Landstill twice this weekend, yesterday I played a Wish version at Monsters Den in Minneapolis going 4-2, getting 16th out of 57. Started off 0-2, losing to TES 0-2, then Merfolk 1-2 (probably punted game three). I beat Affinity 2-0, Imperial Painter 2-0, BG Infect 2-0, and Belcher 2-1.

I went 3-1 with a Wishless version today in Iowa City, getting second out of 16 or so. I beat Dredge (2-1), Rgb Aggro Loam with Burning Wish (2-1, once again I'm awful and messed up game two), ugrb 42 Lands (2-0) (!), and got crushed by my friend playing UG Turbo Drazi. (0-2, game one he had infinite turns and game two he "just" hardcasted Emrakrul when I had three Forces, three Counterspells and a blue card in my hand) I opened sick prize packs from today, which included Day of Judgment, foil Dark Tutelage, Fauna Shaman, small Jace, and Primeval Titan.

I may or may not write reports; we'll see. The deck felt good both days, but I still haven't come up with a sideboard I like against storm-I haven't come up with one I like that has sufficient hate bears without taking out too many cards for other matchups. I played a pair of Negates instead of Pierce today, which I liked. I turned a third Island into a Glacial Fortress since I drew the Island too many times in my opener, and it was fantastic.

[jbeleren]

I played UWrg Landstill with Cunning Wish yesterday at my lgs weekly legacy tournament. Went undefeated in games. I played against Merfolk, BUG tempo, some type of stompy deck, and Stax. I have to say that Peacekeeper is a must in the sideboard.

[Neuad]

J? Hah

[rignes]

I played UWrg Landstill with Cunning Wish yesterday at my lgs weekly legacy tournament. Went undefeated in games. I played against Merfolk, BUG tempo, some type of stompy deck, and Stax. I have to say that Peacekeeper is a must in the sideboard.
Very nice! Congrats on the tourney results.

I have a UW(x) Wish list myself that I've been working on. It did well playing a handful of games a few nights ago (not tournament) but it's untested in a real tournament.

Would you mind sharing your list?

[Neuad]

Played Master Shake/Patricks 76 from Indy. Well actually 73 because I didnt have access to a sea, so I pulled sea and Plat, and put in Scrub and Volcanic, and I replaced Spout with Extirpate. Extremely happy with the list as I learn control. Played in a 4 round local legacy tourney.

Round 1 - Mono Red Burn 0-2

Didnt draw enough counters, he played Sulfuric Vortex, I hated everybody in the room.

Round 2 - Enchantress 0-2

Didn't have the counter for his ORing on Aethersworn. Got Emrakuled. I hated life even more.

Round 3 - Goblins 2-1

Drew Moat and or Cunning Wish in game 1 and 3, locked him out. I was happy again.

Round 4 - Bye

Really fun deck to play.

[GGoober]

Took a spin on Tapo's list (changes marked in parenthesis) aka stable manabase = 4cmc bombs = win and had some great results with limited playtesting (total 20 games, 7 against SCG Zenith Zoo, 4 against Countertop, rest against Merfolks)

24 Lands: (-1 fetch, -1 Glacial Fortress, +1 Academy Ruins, +1 non-Tundra blue dual i.e. Volcs)
4 Strand
3 Misty
3 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
4 Tundra
2 Island
2 Plains
4 Factory
1 Academy Ruins

Draw: 11 (-1 Standstill, -1 Jace, +2 Cunning Wish)
4 Brainstorm
2 Top
3 Standstill
2 Cunning Wish

Removal: 10 (-1 Humility)
3 EE
4 StP
1 Humility
2 Wrath

Counters: 11
4 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
4 FoW

Bombs: 5 (-1 Jace, +1 Scepter)
2 Jace
2 Elspeth
1 Isochron Scepter (I'll play FoF over 3rd Jace in this list with plenty of 4cmc bombs, but Scepter singleton has been solid to sealing up games with StP/Counterspell)

SB:
3 Spell Pierce
2 Negate
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Starstorm (GG tribal)
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 ETutor
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Path
1 REB
1 BEB

List has been solid. Against combo/control/enchantress/stax, +3 Spell Pierce, +2 Negate and out removal has made the deck super dense in counters (16 total postboard)

Against tribal, board out Standstill/Jace/Wish according to Merfolks/Gobs matchup and add 1 maindeck Shackles/Starstorm/REB/BEB. Starstorm catches tribal off guard when it's MD'd. It's essentially a WoG at 2RR instant speed.

Against Zoo/Bant, Relic houses Zoo especially with the Knight+ Goyf + Lavamancer builds. If it's straightforward Zoo, keep Wishes in and 1 Path in the SB so you have option to grab ETutor for EE or Pulse of the Fields.

My list plays +1 non-Tundra blue dual over Tapo's Glacial Fortress or the 8th fetchland because of Shackles and the steeper red requirement with Starstorm. I'm not sure if red is worth the splash just for 1 REB/Starstorm, but I feel the MD is strong enough without needing Firespouts. If I need Firespouts, the red splash is more justified, but right now, I think it's mainly there for EE@3 and Starstorm against tribal.

[kiblast]

only 2 Wishes? you need to see them often, or is useless to waste 6-7 slots in your sb for cards you'll play rarely. Also tribal has a very fast clock, so if your plan is to wreck them through Starstorm, you need Wish by turn 3-4.

[GGoober]

I would actually play without Wishes, but I enjoy the versatility to fetch a Path/Negate/REB/BEB when needed. Tapo's list functions fully without Wishes due to having a lot more digging with Tops, and the density of 4cmc bombs/answers. I was going to play 2 FoF over 2 Wishes, but decided against it. Tapo's list is actually really good in the early game, the 3 Spell Snare is insanely good. Against tribal, if Vial is not in the picture, you can have a stable mid-game without WoG or Starstorm with Tapo's build. If they do get to the mid-game, maindeck WoG and Cunning Wish turn 3 into turn 4 Starstorm is still a mass sweeper x-1.

Regarding the SB, it is in fact not a dedicated Wishboard. The only cards dedicated to wishes are 1 Etutor and 1 Pulse.

3 Spell Pierce
2 Negate
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Starstorm (GG tribal)
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 ETutor
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Path
1 REB
1 BEB

Cards like Path/REB/BEB/Starstorm which seem to be wish targets are in fact non-wish targets. These are simply the best card against the matchups where they are most relevant e.g. Path v.s. Bant/New Horizons/Team America etc, REB v.s. Merfolks/Control/Countertop, BEB v.s. Goblins/Zoo/Burn, Starstorm v.s. Tribal. I do not put these cards because I want to wish for them. There's a plus to wish for them in game 1 against an unknown opponent, but the cards mentioned are the best card to board in against the matchups of concern.

[Adan]

I wouldn't play Starstorm in the SB. Your 4CC Bombs are: Humility, Elspeth, Wrath of God. All of then require WW. Playing 3 Volanics are basically like playing 3 additional Islands for the maindeck as such. I wouldn't dilute the manabase like that for Starstorm. I wouldn't even splash a card that has got twice the color in it's manacost (got this rule of thumb from drafting and limited iirc).

Since I also got wrecked by Nemavera, how would be a Mindbreak Trap in the SB? Combo really is a bad matchup and wou should have something against it in your wishboard (mind that I have no idea how good a Trap in the SB is, I just know that everything sucks on the same level against Chant-Effects. Can't help that I guess).

[GGoober]

Agreed on the Starstorm. It was testing phase. RR isn't hard on turn 4 with 4 lands producing R (the 3rd Volc was played also for reasons for making Shackles better). I'll let you guys know how that works out but there were some issues with getting RR on turn 4 but not too common.

Trap is pretty crappy without Wish. TES/Combo will usually lead with a Duress/Chant unless they are complete n00bs.

At that point, Mindbreak Trap is more dead than any combo hate card. Trap is only good if you are paying 2UU, or if they went off without Duress/Chant (which they deserve to lose).

Even Chant, which is still a bad card against combo compared to hard counter, is much better in most cases. When they Duress you, you can Force/Pierce/Negate the Duress and IIRC most combo player won't fight hard to resolve Duress i.e. the whole point of Duress was to bait counters and if they succeeded in getting it countered, that's one less counter to worry about. They will then try to play aruond that second or third counter in your hand. At this point, Chant is much better than Trap, because you can wait for them to ramp up rituals or Infernal Tutro, and Chant them in response. The same can be said for Mindbreak Trap, but sometimes the 3-spell condition is more narrow.

Regardless, 1 Mindbreak Trap SB with 2-3 Wishes maindeck is a great out against quite a number of narrow decks (Scapeshift with Boseiju, Emrakul being hardcasted, combo, control mirror, Solidarity!!!), but I'm personally not a fan of it. I prefer early game straightforward hard counters like Negate, although sometimes it's hard to fight combo when your spells cost at least 2cmc when they're going off on turn 2 with multiple protection, that's why 3 Pierce can sometimes be played in SB against heavier combo/control metagames to gain more advantage in the early game.

The best out against combo with redundant applications to other matchups is Canonist. I played 3 Canonist in heavier combo metas, and they were really solid. You force them to spend a turn digging an answer, next turn playing the answer (which you counter), they cannot Duress and bounce/kill CAnonist on the same turn. It gives you enough time to dig for more counters, or apply pressure to the point where Ad Nauseam becomes hard to cast under 10life.

[Patrick]

I have to disagree with Starstorm, getting double red in a blue/white control deck is not the main plan to follow. Double white for Wrath/Humility/Moat/Elspeth is a lot more feasible.

As for the confusion on Crucible, it is absolutely the most important card in the control mirror. Keeping your opponent off lands keeps your opponent from casting spells. If they make every land drop you stay with them, but each turn they miss a land you pull 1 more ahead. It's hard to make a move when you have 4 or 5 lands and your opponent has 12. Crucible also allows you to win the control matchup with your Factories with better consistency, as you can just ram them in, and if they get Plowed you can Wasteland them in response. If they get Plowed again you're ahead as long as you play 3 Factories. Crucible also lets you abuse Academy Ruins to your hearts content, and EE is also very important in the control mirror when you can recur it.

Storm: A lot of people are unhappy with the storm matchup. Here are my relevant cards:

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
1 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm

Sideboard:
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Negate
1 Mindbreak Trap


Canonist is very hard for them to beat if you can protect it with 1 or 2 counterspells. The Tutor comes in as it's actually better than having Canonist in your opening hand (response to Thoughtseize, Tutor for Canonist ulose). I like Negates because I play Wish, but they both come in against storm. Mindbreak Trap is there exclusively for Cunning Wish. It hits Storm decks, but it can also deal with an Emrakul that somebody is casting. It's also periodically good against decks where you need 1 more counterspell or you want to exile something. Our list is something like 8-0 against Ari Lax and his storm deck.

[GGoober]

Heading back to non-scepter approach for a change. Playing this list for next week (not this week due to Dallas)

Lands: 24
4 Stands
4 Misty
2 Island
2 Plains
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Volcanic Island
4 factories
1 Academy Ruins

Draw/tutors: 11
4 Brainstorm
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Standstill
2 Cunning Wish

Permission: 11
4 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will

Removal: 10
3 EE
4 StP
1 Humility
2 WoG

Planeswalker: 5
3 Jace
2 Elspeth

SB: 15
2 Perish
3 Engineered Plague
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Extirpate
3 Spell Pierce
1 Negate
1 Path
1 ETutor
1 Pulse of the Fields

The MD follows Tapo's model. I swapped the 4th Standstill and 2nd Humility for 2 Cunning Wish. Wishes are mainly for a more flexible game 1, and can be boarded out postboards against matchups that are faster.

This build has a dense out against various decks postboard:

Progenitus: +2 Perish + 2 WoG
GWx Junk/Bant/Zoo: +2 Perish + 2 WoG

Tribal Gobs/merfolks/Elves: +3 EPlague + 2 Wog (+2 Perish for Elves)

Combo: +3 Pierce + 1 Negate + 1 Extirpate = 16 permission cards.

Will update results next week while I continue to tweak this a little!

[Iron Buddha]

What is your opinion on md Path to Exile?

[Tivon]

chris scagnelli aka warden (of MTG Salvation) just top 8'd the SCG qualifier @ Jupiter tourney today with the following list:

Main Deck
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell
2 Cunning Wish
2 Humility
2 Wrath of God
2 Decree of Justice
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Jace, The Mind Sculptor

Land
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
4 Plains
4 Island
2 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
4 Mishra's Factory

Sideboard
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Back to Basics
1 Hibernation
2 Perish
3 Path to Exile
2 Negate
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Ruined Halo
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle

I personally would want at least one more tundra. and probably one less island (and another plains if I went up to 4 tundras) though it would weaken his back to basics in the board

[kiblast]

2 Humility and 2 Wrath of God seems overkill. Also Wish toolbox seems narrow. I mean, 2 Negate, 2 Tutors, 3 Path to Exile and 1 Hibernation? That's it? Forbid anyone? Diabolic Edict?
And Post board he brings in Tutor toolbox amiright? Well, 2 Enlightened are not enough to handle your toolbox. 1 Nihil Spellbomb and 2 Tutors is all you have against Dredge post board (in addition to MD solution such as EE)? Well, good luck.

[rsaunder]

He scouted one dredge deck, and that was all that showed up.


Excellent metagaming, not failure to prepare.

[GGoober]

This thread needs MOAR Landstill, like this:


http://i1186.photobucket.com/albums/z371/metalwalker/Landstill2.png


Landstill is still like my favorite Legacy deck. It has good matchups across many decks, but sometimes runs into awfully bad ones, depending on the decklist, one landstill pilot with his list can have an amazing matchup against something while another list would have a horrendous matchup against the same opponent. In the following list, the maindeck is designed to have good matchups against Bant NO, Zoo, Junk, Goblins, TES combo with less emphasis against Merfolks (still decent but not the primary goal of the deck since it's not worth bothering the Merfolks matchup when they're just being retarded with their cards.)

This has been the list that I've been testing to great success. Surprisingly, my Junk matchup has been a little more than 50:50 (used to be a matchup where it was problematic)

I've been loving the list so far. It's a list based off Wafo Tapa's stable mana configuration list. 1 Crucible is definitely needed because of how a lot of games end up turning out: Your factories in yard, they've answered 4 Planeswalkers, Crucible gets in there, or it's just a great card with Top/Jace by itself.

UWb Landstill
4/08/2011

24 Lands
4 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Plains
2 Island
3 Tundra
1 Scrubland
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins
1 Wasteland

11 Draw/Tutor
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
2 Cunning Wish

10 Removal
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Wrath of God
1 Humility


11 Permission
3 Spell Snare
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

5 Advantage
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
2 Jace, the Mindsculptor
1 Crucible of Worlds

15 Sideboard
2 Engineered Plague
2 Perish
2 Peacekeeper
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Extirpate
2 Negate
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Path to Exile
1 Enlightened Tutor

Postboard, you get a lot of good options with the current SB configuration:
+2 EPlague, with 2 WoG against Gobs/Elves/Thopters/Elspeth Soldiers/faster WoG against Belcher's EtW (don't bother with EPlague against Merfolks)
+2 Perish, with 2 WoG, 1 Humility against GWx, Green decks, Progenitus
+2 Peacekeeper, with 2 WoG, 1 Humility against Merfolks/Emrakul
+2 Negate, +2 Canonist, +1 Extirpate against combo/Stax/Enchantress
+2 Relic, +1 Extirpate on Dredge/Loam decks.

I would love to try cutting Wishes, and run +1 ETutor and +1 SDT instead. A lot of times, CWish is grabbing ETutor into SDT, so I'm quite inclined to say that I would love ot run 3 tops in this list. The fact that most mid-range decks (Countertop, Junk, and many other decks with Tops e.g. Meandeck MUD) goes to show how one player dominates the board when he has top while the other doesn't. I'll have to test it out but I've been finding myself Etutoring Top and winning more games than ETutoring for Standstills.

[god_campbell]

I def like your list Metal worker, and I must say that playmat is about the sexiest thing I have ever seen!

[klaus]

1 of those rainforests should be a marsh flats.
And those 2 negates and 1 canonist could be turned into 3 counterbalances (supported by e.t.) making your combo mu slightly better, well possibly, but those cbs are also golden against control.

[GGoober]

Yeah Klaus I agree with that change actually. I have been wanting to fit the 3rd Top in the MD so that SB choice would make sense. My current configuration is still +2 Negate, +2 Canonist, which I will cut down to +1 Negate, +3 Counterbalance. In the MD, I've been thinking of dropping the 3rd Counterspell for the 3rd Top (which should dig into more counterspells essentially when having an early Top).

And if people start asking: "why not play 3 Counterbalance MD when playing 3 Tops?" I'm going to say simply there's not enough space to make room for them. If they ask "but Countertop beats the format", and I will answer again that's not the case, but countertop is really good against matchups where it's really good at (as you pointed out Klaus, combo/burn/control etc). Its funny because quite a number of testings against countertop, they end up losing to hard counters and to a countered top. If it does resolve, it's really problematic, and you have to resolve EE (which actually takes some effort these days). But all in all, a maindeck of hard counters, sweepers, more dense removal works great in the current meta that Counterbalance is running into a little trouble.

It's funny because on paper, Counterbalance is ages better than Spell Snare when playing with Tops, but the situation itself isn't as simple. Counterbalance is not going to stop a Hymn with a blind flip (you play Counterbalance on turn 2). You will end up losing cards or a Goyf resolves, and if you don't have Top paired up, it does nothing except to have the potential to counter. The potential to counter shit is important, but at the same time, there's the potential it whiffs on a blind flip, and in those scenarios where the spell HAS to be countered, then Spell Snare functions better. I do like Countertop in Landstill, but I think this list has been a little more successful since it is faster.

Marsh Flats make sense, although I've tried that before. I usually want to fetch UU more than WW when playing this deck (Counterspells/Brainstorms/Snare etc). I never fetch my 2nd white unless I'm planning to drop an Elspeth/WoG which against most aggro decks actually don't happen on turn 4 (since I'm still controlling the board with other spells at that point).

@god_campbell thanks! And yes, this has been a pretty nice list. Snares and Tops are the reason why it's quite stable (Wafo Tapa ran 3 Snare, 2 Tops, 3 Jace, 2 Elspeth, 2 WoG, 2 Humility, 4 counterspell, 3 EE, 4 Standstill, 4 StP). I felt that the lone Crucible was much more powerful than the 3rd Jace (laugh you will but in games where it matters it's really good :) Jace is argubly quite bad in certain matchups e.g. Goblins/Merfolks, he's good in Merfolks only if you support him with something like peacekeeper/Moat).

[Shawn]

If you want your secondary fetch to be able to find basic Islands, at least run Polluted Delta. Rainforest can't find Scrubland, and the W+off color dual is one I fetch often in the face of mana disruption.

Slightly off topic: I won a GPT for RI with 4c WishStill a week before last Sunday. The report will hopefully be published within the next few days.

[hyc8028]

With more people playing more 3 cc and 4 cc bomb, why would landstill play spell snare instead of spell pierce?

[kiblast]

With more people playing more 3 cc and 4 cc bomb, why would landstill play spell snare instead of spell pierce?

Because Spell Snare is one of the best counter spells ever made, for landstill the classical choice is 4 Fow, 3-4 Counterspell and 3 Snare. I'd play Pierce instead of Snare only in Combo/Control warped metagames.

[god_campbell]

Ya, I really like Wafo's approach to landstill, and last summer I had a similar list that did me well in a few tourney, and I think it's high time I break that list out again me thinks.

On another note, with the GP coming up, perhaps it would be a good idea for everyone to turn their thoughts on tuning a list to fight the GP metagame? there is an outside shot Ill be able to make it, so Ill be happy to contribute.

[GoldenCid]

4 Counterspell


I liked your list very much! The only change i suggest is cutting 1 CS for 1 Path to exile! :)

[GGoober]

@Shawn: Mistys was no problem until I added 1 Scrubland (which I forgot to consider). Originally, I only ran 2 Underground Sea and Mistys, being able to bluff Bant on the play would be a slight plus. can't wait to see your report. It's sad the Landstill thread on the source is just dead. MTGS is quite lively there although I don't post there often.

@Hyc8028: You are absolutely correct with the format shifting from the once 1-2cmc centric metagame. That is answered with 4 Counterspells, not with 3 Spell Snares. If the format was 2 cmc heavy, I would be playing a 3/4 Counterspell/Snare mix instead. I've only tested limited games last Saturday (specifically Junk). Snare is great against them, it matches their plays on both the play and on the draw. If I were to think of various decks in the format, there's still a ton of cards that Snare hits:

- Countertop
- Bant/Junk/Zoo
- Merfolks (yes it still hits stuff even if Vial is in play, at least you offset their tempo by a turn)
- TES/ANT Tutors
- Chalice decks

@GoldenCid: What I realized that the 4th Counterspell is indeed a little unnecessary at times (well it's never a bad card, but would I prefer another slot in its place that's what I mean). I answer the 3-4cmc bomb-centric format with WoG/Humility, and I think I can afford to cut down on 1 Counterspell. However, I was planning to play the 3rd Top over the 4th Counterspell instead of a PtE. I haven't had too much trouble with aggro (Merfolk is the only exception which needs postboard help with Peacekeeper + Path). But I've been Cunning Wishing into ETutor Top many times to win games. Top is fantastic against mid-range or slower decks, and whichever deck gets a Top and the other person doesn't, the player with Top usually wins.

I'll have to test that configuration up sometime, but I'm going ahead with that build for this Saturday. I think last Saturday maybe a fluke I had a string of decent Junk runs. Maybe my FoWs get more power when I FoW placing on the FoW image on my mat, and when I put StP on the StP art and put Jace in the middle :P

UW(x) Landstill
4/11/2011

24 Lands
4 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Plains
2 Island
3 Tundra
1 Scrubland
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins
1 Wasteland

12 Draw/Tutor
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
2 Cunning Wish

10 Removal
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Wrath of God
1 Humility


10 Permission
3 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

5 Wincon/Advantage
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
2 Jace, the Mindsculptor
1 Crucible of Worlds


15 Sideboard
2 Engineered Plague
2 Perish
2 Peacekeeper
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Extirpate
1 Counterspell
3 Counterbalance
1 Enlightened Tutor



EDIT: I wanted to point out that Elspeth is a fucking beast. I love her more than Jace in this deck. Jace is good when you are in a winning or slightly advantageous position. Elspeth is good if you are in a winning or slightly advantageous position AND if you are in a bad position.

[klaus]

@Metalwalker:
That Marshflats is not neccessarily meant to fetch Plains #2 but increase the chance to be able to fetch Plains #1 after you having fetched for UU.

[GoldenCid]

Mmmm...that counterspell in the side looks awful...if it were pierce...ok but counterspell?

[GGoober]

It 'looks' awful but it's a Korean Counterspell :p

Jokes aside, it was originally 1 Negate, which 'looks' decent in wishbuilds. But with the pretty solid manabase, Counterspell would be better since I've cut down to 3 maindeck. I'll be taking this list for this saturday, bored of losing to Junk with Steel Stompy over and over again :P

Yeah Klaus, I got you there, I'll think about how my lines of play are, and whether I need the 5th fetchland for white (most likely). Thanks for the Counterbalance suggestion (and partially to my desire to play with 3 Tops based on previous testings that a lot of games boil down to Topwars i.e. whether my opponent or I have a Top in play). The CB is definitely what I was missing out since 3 Counterbalance is much stronger than 2 Canonist + 1 Negate in my originally list when their purpose were to deal with: combo/enchantress primarily, and Counterbalance has the added benefit to beat other random decks e.g. burn/control-mirrors.

A postoard CB list with the list posted above against combo/control/enchantress would look something like this:

UW(x) Landstill
4/11/2011

4 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Plains
2 Island
3 Tundra
1 Scrubland
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins
1 Wasteland

3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
2 Cunning Wish (3cmc slot, fetches Extirpate/ETutor when needed in this matchup)

2 Relic of Progenitus (could be stP/EE depending on combo/control matchup)
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Swords to Plowshares

3 Spell Snare
4 Counterspell
3 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will

2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
2 Jace, the Mindsculptor
1 Crucible of Worlds

0CMC: 26
1CMC: 14
2CMC: 10
3CMC: 3
4CMC: 8

Still a little low on the 2cmc curve (ideally 12+) but otherwise really solid transition against the matchup where Counterbalance matters (and no, Counterbalance isn't good in majority of matchups, at least not in a Landstill shell, but it's REALLY good against the matchups where it matters). Thanks for the tweak again! The last time I fiddled with Counterbalance was in the maindeck, liked it, but didn't like the playstyle, and didn't like playing Countertop against matchups where Landstill was just simply better i.e. aggro, so I abandoned it and somehow only forced myself to think of only playing Counterbalance in the maindeck or not, and didn't think of it as a sideboard slot.

[Shawn]

Report!

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20548-Legacy-GPT-%2A1st%2A-Iowa-City

(Two sentences were accidentally cut by the editors, the maindeck and part of the sideboard wasn't posted, and there are some letters capitalized that I didn't make that way in the submitted version, please ignore that)

[GGoober]

Nice report Shawn. I know you pilot the deck correctly but the manabase seems a little fragile (can't help since it's 4c Landstill with colorless sources). I know for most part knowing how to fetch lands at the right time is wasteland resistant, but you cannot avoid the hands where you draw no fetches and duals/factories, and the 4c manabase to support 3 deed looks a little unstable if such situations arise.

Anyway, good performance, my question for you and everyone reading is this:

How consistently can you cast Pernicious Deed on turn 3 with the current manabase? I am guessing it's tought to get Deed online turn 3 and would most probably come online on turn 4. At which turns were you popping Deeds? Do you usually play a turn 4 Deed popping it on turn 5 while using early counters/removal to stabilize?

The main point I'm raising is: UGb Jacestill has the benefit on supporting Deed with their natural manabase, while UWx has to go into effort to strain the manabase to play Deed. Deed is incredibly powerful so I have no objections to your list, the same way many UGb Jacestill lists are trying to squeeze 4 StP because it's StP andnothing beats StP. The point I'm trying to bring across is this: if most games involve you playing Deed on turn 4 or later and blowing it up later when the time is right, utilizing counters/removal to stabilize before you get deed online, can we explore the option for UWx landstill to play Nevinryal's Disk over Deed in UWx build? Disk was explored and played in the past for a few iterations, but was pushed out whe Zoo/Merfolk became more popular and were too fast for Disk. But the overall speed of Deed and Disk are fairly comparable (in UWx lists where manabases have some issues to support Deed, in UGb lists, Deed is unquestionably consistently faster than Disk, but in UWx I think it's not consistently faster than Disk given that Disk is colorless!)

The only benefit Deed has over Disk is it comes in a turn faster (which was my counterpoint that the UWx manabase runs into issue supporting a 4-color manabase while playing with manlands/wastelands/ruins). Deed has another benefit at being incredible late-game i.e. you play it and activate it on the same turn when you have mana.

However, I think Disk maybe a viable option to explore again in today's meta. Just like Wrath is good again in Landstill (a universal out to everything), Disk answers everything, including Affinity/Stax/Enchantress/Stompy etc. It's also a good answer to Show and Tell the same way Humility is: you SHow them your Disk and let them scoop it up. For the weekend I'm testing 1 Disk over the 2nd Wrath in the list I posted earlier. I'm not sure if I'm going to cut Cunning Wish yet, I've played with them for ages, but I'm not sure if -2 Cunning Wish, +1 ETutor, +3rd Jace gives the deck a lot more raw power than 2 Cunning Wish.

Thoughts?

[Shawn]

The manabase is more inconsistent than the UWx ones I run, I definitely admit that; with UWx I'm not afraid of mana disruption unless they nut draw you with multiple Wastes and Stifles, but the mana is sometimes a concern with 4c. The Scrubland is really handy as it allows W turn one, GB on t3, and WW on turn four if needed, but with only one WW spell in the main it doesn't come up that often. Wastelands, Sinkholes, and Vindicates are definitely much less scary than Stifles with that manabase, (and with the UW one as well) since against B/x decks I generally play out my fetches first, and don't crack them unless absolutely need to. Also, with a Wasteland they are setting themselves back a land as well, unlike Stifle. Against Wastes, I almost exclusively find duals with 4C, whereas I usually find duals with UW, but if I can find basics I will.

There were a few games I had to mulligan because of mana issues, but they were unkeepable anyway with the spells I had.

The order of playing out lands really depends on the hand, sometimes you need to bait out Wastelands with Tundras to protect your lands that allow you to cast Deed, and sometimes you have a hand with STP, EE, and some other spells so you can use Trops and Seas as bait.

I need to try out a list with Disk again, I won a small tournament last summer with Disks in my Landstill list, and I have them in the sideboard in my UW build. The manabase for UWx becomes even better when you cut some Wogs for Disk, as the need for WW on turn four is decreased. I will have to try it out again. I feel Deed is much more powerful, as it can become active the turn it's cast, and comes active turn four. Being able to Wish into Tutor into Deed and blow it up turn 5 is very nice, which isn't possible with Disk. However, Disk is also better against random stuff like Stifle, Tombstalker, Emrakrul, and annoying stuff like Blood Moon, and it doesn't strain the manabase nearly as much. The ability to have an untapped Disk or Deed on the board with Jace in play when they have 0 creatures is insanely powerful, as opposed to sorcery-based sweepers.

If I were to cut green, I'd remove the Trops and a Sea for a Tundra, and two more basics and another land-maybe a Glacial Fortress. Then, -3 Deed +2 Disk, and a singleton Elspeth or another EE. Ruins is an option with those changes, but I ran it in a version with 3 Disk, 3 EE and I didn't feel it was needed. Then again, if I were to run Wish, Disk is probably not necessary with a Fracturing Gust in the board.

[GGoober]

Yeah you got my point on the manabase. I've always liked Deed, but I don't have the balls or confidence like you and MasterShake to go about doing so. A lot of the resiliency in manabase in 4c Landstill is highly dependent on playskill i.e. knowing what to fetch, but outside of the skill level, there's that fundamental risk on just drawing the no-fetchlands and putting games in risks. It's like playing UWx landstill with Tapo-manabase but still drawing into hands with no-fetchlands and no-basics then your opponents go apeshit on the Wastelands. Shit happens, but it's all to reduce any chance your opponents get at attacking your manabase.

From your replies, I think I'll go ahead and test out Disk this weekend. What I was mainly trying to find out, since I have not done testing with Deeds outside of Ugb Landstill (have not tested 4c Landstill), is to find out from you who tested it, what were the turns you were usually resolving Deed and blowing it up. If the Deed is usually flipped on turn 5, I think Disk might be worth it, for similar reasons WoG was initially not played because Firespout was a mana cheaper and was able to answer the format at the time. However, with so many decks with so many different creatures: emrakul/progenitus/Junk/Gobs/Merfolks/Tombstalkers, Firespout has been outclassed recently. WoG is also much better now if you opt for a stronger manabase, which gives you some resiliency against decks that prey on weak manabases. I think the analogy of Disk v.s. Deed is similar to Firespout v.s. Wrath. Disk is fundamentally a turn slower, but it answers everything (and has recursion, but that's win-more).

I'll let you know how that testing goes. I don't agree with swapping 2 Wrath for 2 Disk. The speed still matters. In my maindeck, I've swapped out 2 WoG, 1 Humility to a 1/1/1 WoG/disk/Humility split with the 2nd WoG in the board. I would love a 2/1/1 split which I feel is superb (4 4cmc 'sweepers') but I have no space maindeck without cutting draw/counter/planeswalkers. Also I think 4 sweepers maybe a little too much making your game 1 weaker against non-aggro decks. Disk is a slower WoG (a little more flexible) but can be tutored and is great against the random matchups where WoG is dead. It's also very nice against Show and Tell :P

On another note, I always debate on wish v.s. wishless, but always end up playing wishbuilds. What are the main strengths of the wishless builds? Last night I browsed through multiple UWx lists on deckbase.net and other deck databases and notice that the recent placing top 4 lists do not play Wish. Am I too biased with the flexibility that Wish gives or can you reconfirm that my expectations of Wish in Landstill is strong. I always play with Wishbuilds (85% of the time) so I can't really comment on non-wish builds although they seem to be placing.

[RogueMTG]

On another note, I always debate on wish v.s. wishless, but always end up playing wishbuilds. What are the main strengths of the wishless builds? Last night I browsed through multiple UWx lists on deckbase.net and other deck databases and notice that the recent placing top 4 lists do not play Wish. Am I too biased with the flexibility that Wish gives or can you reconfirm that my expectations of Wish in Landstill is strong. I always play with Wishbuilds (85% of the time) so I can't really comment on non-wish builds although they seem to be placing.

It has been forever since I've posted, but this was interesting to me as I always end up playing wishless builds.

Mainly this was because of how slow Wish is, but apparently that has not been an issue for yourself?

The main strength of the non-wish builds is that they are able to pack a real sideboard.

[GGoober]

Wish is indeed a slow card, but you have to take into account the Wishbuilds usually run a heavier countersuite and early game spell to support the early game, that turns Wish from being a slow tutor, to being a powerful trump card when you've dealt the early game. I'm not sure what your Wishless build look like, but I've been on the fence in wonderin if I can just play with a straightforward Wishless build.

My only issue with Wish is: It is slow and worthless in matchups where it's, you know it, slow!! E.g. Combo, Goblins, Dredge are example where Wish is very weak. Everything else, Wish has been great, or maybe I've been deluded it's been great (since I've been primarily playing Wishbuilds). i guess one thing to note that I almost exclusively fetch Etutor and Extirpate, even much more than Path to Exile in my Wishbuild, which is why I was wondering if I should just swap the Wish for the ETutor maindeck and streamline the sideboard.

[Shawn]

I actually like the Wish version against Dredge and combo, if you run Rav and MB Trap side. Ravenous Trap is your only hope to win game one against Dredge, and coupled with other hate it makes games two and three much better compared to Wishless versions I've tested (3 Relics or Crypts by themselves are generally not enough to beat Dredge, and I hate wasting more space in the side). After side, I have 6 anti graveyard cards in the form of Extirpate, Relic, Tutor, and the three Wish into Ravenous Trap.

Wish into Mindbreak Trap is surprisingly effective against TES. TES generally doesn't combo off in the early turns against you for several reasons, the main one being they don't want to unless they nut draw you with a fast hand + protection; (and they don't need to go off early, because of our glacial clock) they don't want to go all in unprotected on something like Wish+LED or Infernal+LED. The matchup is still unfavorable if the storm player has any sort of intelligence, but MBT helps a lot.

People argue Wish cards take up slots from other cards, but if a couple of those cards were put in to fight those specific decks such as TES or Dredge, (let's say 2 Relics instead of 1 Relic, 1 Rav Trap, or 3 Canonist instead of 2 and a MBTrap) you're generally better off doing the split, since Wish allows you to run "more" copies of hate cards in the form of hate plus 2 or 3 Wish, while gaining access to them game one.

[GoldenCid]

I'd Love try Vindicate in the deck as a 2 of. Some time ago i'd tried it and i liked. Nowadays does it worth?

[GGoober]

@Shawn: I agree with you, because Wish has allowed me to beat a ton of decks when it resolves. However, being primarily a wishstill player, I'm trying to look outside the box and think if those wins were the illusions of "I win this tough matchup with wish, therefore Wish is good". The truth is, Wish is still fundamentally a turn behind decks like Dredge/combo. The wins created by Wish against those decks maybe giving a false sense of security against those decks when in fact Wish may not be ideal against those decks. Personally, I keep Wishes against TES/combo, but I still always feel fearful when I do, because even if I draw a hand of FoW, they can almost always go turn 1 Duress, turn 2 win if they need to. I feel that against matchups like Dredge/combo, Wish is good because we have other cards pairing it up to slow them down to turn 3. Did Wish really win those matchups for us? Or was it the card that was wished for winning those matchups? Would it have been better to just play a straightforward sideboard e.g. 2 or more copies of the spell you're wishing for, which technically removes the belief that Wish increases the chances you draw such a spell. I have no doubt Wish is great game 1. And I still like Wishbuilds, but I'm just trying to think whether Wish was mainly successful because opposing decks were fundamentally slower, which increases its power.

@Vindicate:
It's a great card and was successful. I think it'll continue to be successful but maybe not optimal unless you have a list that plays it optimally e.g. Speedstill (which in some sense plays like Tempo decks but without creatures lol).

I mean Vindicate is successful in Junk, but that doesn't translate to being as successful inLandstill. Fundamentally, you want to avoid tapping out on your turns unless you have mana open. Junk can afford tapping out because the nature of the deck is discard, and pick off anything on the board and win with creatures, but for Landstill, your main stability comes from countering spells, and at the right time sneak your win-condition and win.

Vindicate is just very flexible, and that's its biggest strength. Currently I'm dropping the 4th color in my UWx build and give up on fetching 4 colors against opposing Jaces. I figured that I'll let Factories do the work. If you play Vindicate, that's another big strength to hit Planeswalkers without playing 4 colors. I'll post a report after today's tourney, bringing the old Landstill back again. Hopefully I don't draw double factories in opening hand too often.

[GoldenCid]

Vindicate demands tapping as well as EE. That was my reasoning. Vindicates doesn't ask us a "fragile" mana base with a 4th color to deal with pw!
I'm not saying that EE is not needed off course.

[GGoober]

List I played yesterday, going 4-1 splitting top 4.

24 Lands:
1 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
2 Island
2 Plains

Draw/Tutors: 11
4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 ETutor
3 Standstill

Win Conditions: 6
3 Jace TMS
2 Elspeth
1 Crucible

Removal: 10
3 EE
4 StP
1 WoG
1 Humility
1 Nevinryall's Disk

Permission: 10
3 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

SB:
3 Counterbalance
2 Ethersworn Canonist (mainly to up the 2cmc to 11 count postboard v.s. decks where CB is needed)
2 Path to Exile
2 Perish
2 Peacekeeper
2 Extirpate
2 Relic of Progenitus

MATCH 1: Junk
Don't remember much but both games involve hitting land drops and winning with Elspeth. Game 2 he opened with Duress + Mox Diamond + Thoughtseize taking Spell Snare and Perish and I have double plow for 2 creatures. He had a SDT in play and after bouncing to play Vindicate Elspeth which I forced, I countered his SDT next turn and he loses to my SDT in play.

MATCH 2: NO Bant
Game 1: He keeps a counter-heavy hand and I put him on New Horizons (no early threats). I play around Daze/Stifle and hit 4 land drops, put a Jace down. He Natural Orders and I force and he pierce (I have 1 land untapped). NO resolves and he puts me on a 2 turn clock. Jace dug 8 cards with 2 fetchlands and a brainstorm for another 4 cards to grab a Humility winning the game.

Game 2: He cannot fight past double StP, WoG, Perish, Disk that I resolved accordingly. Elspeth seals it up

MATCH 3: Hypergenesis
Game 1: He turn 2 Hypergenesis in response to Standstill which I force, he has the force as well.
Game 2: I board in +3 Counterbalance, +2 Canonist, +2 Extirpate, +2 Peacekeeper, +2 Perish (all awesome against this deck), but he turn 2's me again. No FoW = lose. This matchup is always kinda 50-50, slightly in my favor game 2, but if they draw the nuts, you can't do much

MATCH 4: Meandeck MUD
Game 1: The start of the game was hilarious. I keep a mediocore hand but it had Spell Snare + Wasteland anticipating his Tomb->Monolith. He goes Ancient Tomb + Monolith, I snare it, then Waste his tomb next turn. He topdeck lands like a champ (City of Traitors/Great Furnace) and puts up a good fight. Turn 4 Jace is brutal against Meandeck MUD. We play out a pretty long game, ETutor -> Disk with some StP and he scoops it up.
Game 2: He mulls to 6, goes Ancient Tomb Monolith MW. Seems good. My hand is Counterspell, Land, Spell Snare and no StP. I didn't draw StP, he reveals with MW into Lodestone + Myr Battlesphere on turn 2. Seems good. Hit 4 lands, no WoG/Humility = GG
Game 3: I draw a hand of 2 Fetches, 1 Spell Snare, 2 StP, 1 Standstill, Brainstorm + stuff. I told him this hand is the nuts against him. He leads with monolith and I snare. Then drop Standstill, he cracks. Over the next 4 cards that I drew (including Standstill), I have a full set of StP. Jace comes down and he can't beat StP lol.

MATCH 5: don't remember this match at all

Split Top 4.

Comments: I do miss Wish because testing 4 games against combo yesterday, I realized that my opponents seldom go off turn 2 (since they want to go off protected). Wish does increase the blue count, and gives some flexibility, but at the same time, I did enjoy the slightly more straightforward SB.

2 Perish + 1 WoG + 1 Disk (i.e. 2 WoG effect) is simply amazing and dense against any decks playing green creatures.

I might want to up the Peacekeeper count to 3, as more dense outs to Merfolks and Show and Tell/Hypergenesis/NO decks.

Counterbalance SB against combo testing was neat. Definitely worthwhile for the fast combo matchup, and possible Enchantress/Sligh/Burn when that crops up. I never felt the need for it game 1, since my metagames (or the general metagame) is still primarily creature-based.

The lone Disk over the 2nd WoG was really nice in testing. Both games against Meandeck MUD it was the game-winning card, forcing them to be unable to play around it while nuking all their accelerants leaving them with just 1-2 lands in play. It's probably amazing against Affinity, and it was still decent against Bant when I played it. It's essentially a Deedfor color-tight UWx builds since you rarely can pop Deed on the same turn you play it, so passing the turn drawback applies for both. Disk has some benefit to kill ANYTHING (Emrakul/Progenitus), and has nice synergy with Ruins (this is win-more but there's the option and I used that option once against Meandeck MUD).

[kiblast]

Metalwalker, how about Oblivion Stone instead of Disk to wipe the entire board, taking opponent's planeswalkers too? After all, they both activate on turn 5, but at least Oblivion seems more reliable in late game where you have lots of lands in play, as you can activate the turn it comes into play; and for the same reason it seems better with Academy Ruins recursion, too.

Edit: if you are running Tutors, I'd really play a singleton Aura Flux in sb, it owns Enchantress pretty nicely.

[Adan]

Metalwalker, how about Oblivion Stone instead of Disk to wipe the entire board, taking opponent's planeswalkers too? After all, they both activate on turn 5, but at least Oblivion seems more reliable in late game where you have lots of lands in play, as you can activate the turn it comes into play; and for the same reason it seems better with Academy Ruins recursion, too.

Edit: if you are running Tutors, I'd really play a singleton Aura Flux in sb, it owns Enchantress pretty nicely.

Oblivion Stone sucks. You want to be able to sweep the board and then drop Standstill. Disk sweeps for 1 Mana, Oblivion Stone for 5, so chances are little that you will be able to drop Standstill afterwards AND have Counterspell-/SpellSnare-Mana open.

btw. I played the Wafo-List yesterday and barely made top8 with 4-2, losing against the top2 players (Springtide and UR Merfolk). I didn't really knew that Merfolk was such a bad matchup (although getting lucksacked away with 4 Wastelands and 3 Mutavault in both g1 and g2 was devastating for my blood pressure). And Sprintide... well, I was colorscrewed and wasn't able to find white mana with SDt to drop my 3 Meddling Mages, so I guess that was bad luck. The matchup is still not in my favor.

I guess I have to play Wastelands again and maybe neglect the 3rd color Splash for it. I'm not really sure anymore.

[GGoober]

Yeah Adan puts the point of Disk v.s. Ostone well. But to be fair, the only time I ever played OStone in Legacy was in MUC, and it still kinda sucked since it was way too mana intensive. The only problem with Oblivion Stone is that it's only better than Disk if you're not dying i.e. you can afford to play it turn 3, then activate it EOT when you need to. Usually, you are almost always forced to activate it on their attack step (legacy aggro decks want to kill you in general) so they can make their second main phase drops by playing out more spells. Disk comes down a turn slower so that's the drawback, but once it untaps, it blows the board for 1, giving you mana to either counter their spells or let you blow your own disk up on your own turn and setup with Planeswalkers/Standstill. Sometimes, mana efficiency is another factor to consider v.s. slower cards. The same way Deed is in general stronger than Disk, but the pro-side of Disk is that it's very mana efficient as a sweeper (a recurrable one and tutorable one too!)

Adan. I made some Wafo-list (only change was -3rd Jace, -2nd Humility +1 Cunning WIsh) with a SB of Peacekeeper and EPlagues against merfolks 3 weeks ago. I get roflpwned by the same Waste waste Mutavaultx100 with Lords + endless counterspells. They were not even netting cards with STandstills/adepts, but just drew into early counters, followed by multiple lords and 2 mutavaults in play. The deck is dumb and is the only deck in Legacy that pisses me off i.e. for some reason they always get the nut draws.. Anyway end of rant: 3 Peacekeeper does the job well. Tapo's manabase is amazing. I have kept the 8th fetch originally playing 7 but found that 8 fetchlands is crucial to beating Wastelands and fetching basics. You can play around Tempo decks stifle very well due to your high land count and you are never in a rush to crack your fetches against tempo decks most of the time (since they play like 8 threats and you play like 10 removals + Tops + Planeswalkers? lol)

And I don't understand the people who don't play Landstill saying it's wrong to play Standstill into a Noble Hierarch... I'll take 19 damage from Noble Hierarch all day under my Standstill. As long as I make my land drops I'm fine, and as long as I draw Factories under my STandstill before I die lol. There was once I was really forced to crack my Standstill after taking 12 damage from Hierarch, but I still did so EOT. Shit happens sometimes. Am I not supposed to lead Standstill against a Hierarch in most cases? (I know that the particular bant list did not play Wastelands MD but he had like 2 Arbors)

[ultimoman]

List I played yesterday, going 4-1 splitting top 4.
Win Conditions: 6
3 Jace TMS
2 Elspeth
1 Crucible

Nice list and good job on the finish!!

How was it using 3 Jace> Did you ever wish you had 2 and then something else such as FoF?

[GGoober]

Thanks! I used to play 5 win-conditions (2 Jace, 2 Elspeth, 1 Crucible) and 4 Factories.

I switched to 3 Jace when I was rethinking on the value of the 4th Counterspell v.s. the 3rd Jace. I would love to have 11 MD Permission against most decks game 1, but I felt that in the end, just drawing Jace and protecting him was going to win more games than the 4th Counterspell did. Of course, I've done testing with 2-3 Jaces and usually liked 2 Jaces. But I went online to check for winning lists (most lists played 3 Jace, 2 Elspeth), so I had to rethink again, whether it was easier to win games with Jace or the 11th Permission spell. I used to play 3 Jace, but cut the 3rd Jace for a Crucible. Now that the Crucible is one of the more important cards when games drag on, both as a win-condition to ensure you don't run out of Factories, but it's a crucial card in mid-range or control decks.

I'm happy with 3 Jaces for now, and I will continue to test/play with it. I love FoF, and even own 2 signed foil copies (very pretty signed card with TNielson's golden signature :D), but I'm not sure if FoF is more powerful over the 3rd Jace. Now that I'm playing quite a lot of sweepers, I might test out FoF again. FoF can also create those nightmare headaches where the opponent put a 1 Jace 4 card pile and you pick up the 4 cards only to cast the Jace in your hand :P

[Jason]

And I don't understand the people who don't play Landstill saying it's wrong to play Standstill into a Noble Hierarch... I'll take 19 damage from Noble Hierarch all day under my Standstill. As long as I make my land drops I'm fine, and as long as I draw Factories under my STandstill before I die lol. There was once I was really forced to crack my Standstill after taking 12 damage from Hierarch, but I still did so EOT. Shit happens sometimes. Am I not supposed to lead Standstill against a Hierarch in most cases? (I know that the particular bant list did not play Wastelands MD but he had like 2 Arbors)

I'd run out a turn two Standstill on the play against a turn 1 Noble Hierarch. On the draw, however, if the opponent didn't cast anything on turn 2, I wouldn't run out Standstill. You'll want to be untapped if they go for turn 3 Natural Order.

[a-slice-of-cake]

Here's the list I have from back when Survival was around, I'm looking to update it (I've been in a hiatus from Magic since then):

Land:
3 Island
2 Plains
4 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
2 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Karakas (aka Cool Iona/Emrakul, Bro.)
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta

Distinctly-not-land:
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
1 Spell Snare (this is a relic from the Survival metagame, may come out for a 4th Standstill or MD Enlightened Tutor)
4 Force of will
3 Cunning Wish
3 Standstill
2 Fact or Fiction
2 Wrath of God
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Humility
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Decree of Justice
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Eternal Dragon

Sideboard:
1 Extirpate
2 Path to Exile
1 Return to Dust
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Negate
1 Wing Shards
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Stifle
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Peacekeeper

[GGoober]

So kicking off with the Mental Misstep deal:

{PU} Instant
{PU} can be paid with either 2 life or U.
Counter target spell with cmc 1.

Now, granted that this gives Landstill a huge boost to our nemesis vial decks, it is still fairly limited in scope for the deck considering what Spell SNare is more capable of. In general, outside of Vial, Landstill is still primarily afraid of cards that are 2cmc: Goyf/Pridemage/Bob/Chalice@1 etc.

I do think that Landstill maybe forced to play this card, not as an out to Vial decks, but as an answer to opposing Vial decks that are most likely going to playing Mental Misstep themselves. Vial decks would be wanting to play this card, both as a safeguard against Misstep, but also against EE@1 and multiple other spells e.g. StP.

I'm not sure how things will turn out, but I can't help imagining and getting my mind blown away by how this spoiled card may change the mechanics on how we think about deck matchups. It's no longer as simple as FoWing the Vial or EE'ing the Vial. Also, I see Landstill getting weakened more by opposing Mental Misstep than benefiting from playing its own playset. Your StPs are no longer as safe as they were if opponents are playing this spell, and on your side paying 2 life is more costly than an aggro deck paying 2 life.

Thoughts? This card is really blowing me away. I might just play Tempo decks and not worry about how to deal with this crap :P

although shifting from Counterspell/Spell Snare split to Mental Misstep/Spell Snare suite gives the deck less flexibility, but a lot more fighting power in the early game. Maybe a 3/2/2 split of Mental Misstep/Snare/Counterspell would be good enough?

[Shawn]

I am very exciting about this card in Landstill. First and foremost it answers Vial, and does a nice job of skirting around Daze if you are on the play. It also happens to answer cards in matchups where Snare is weak, namely Goblins, Dredge, and some other matchups as well. I am much more concerned about Vial than I am a Goyf, Bob, or Counterbalance. Also, it hits Top, which is the better part of the CBTop lock against us.


(if you are afraid of Misstep hitting EE @ 1, just add another mana of the same color to the EE so the sunburst is the same, but the cmc=2)

[GGoober]

@Shawn, came back from a work meeting, and my mind was wandering around thinking of misstep in landstill, and I realized, I really don't feel 2cmc spells unless it's a Hymn. Everything else I fear 1cmc spells much more than 2cmc (most 2cmc bombs are creatures, which are answered by EE/StP).

The biggest strength of Snare was being able to have an efficient counter on the draw where Counterspell was weak. Misstep fulfills the same philosophy except it happens yet a turn earlier than Snare on 1cmc spells i.e. turn 0. Being able to catch Top/Vial/Nactl/Thoughtseize/Putrid Imp/Lackey on turn 0 is much more safer than catching Goyf/Bob/Counterbalance on turn 2 (given that you have more ways to get out of 2cmc spells than the 1 cmc spells listed).

I'll be dropping 3 Snares and probably test out 3-4 copies of this card. This will shore up a lot of valuable matchup, namely Dredge/Bant/Gobs (all have been decent but Dredge was still tough on the draw). What I'm REALLY terrified is Merfolks playing 4 Missteps. This will probably be an even harder matchup despite the fact that both Merfolks and Landstill will be packing missteps.

[serendib]

As control UWx decks player I'm more scared of mental mistep in my opponents' hands than how I would like it in my deck.because I don't like my StP to be countered.

vial decks are not a problem for UWx control decks....
If you play peacekeeper. peacekeeper stops merfolk and it is difficult to be countered (pierce and cathcer are useless vs peacekeeper).
If you don't play peacekeeper (4X) You'll lose often vs merfolk. If you play you'll wn evevry game you see it.
try to believe.

[Felidae]

Peacekeeper is great, no need to argue about this, but her big drawback is the fact that we can't use our drawengine (Standstill) efficient while he's in play (except of course if we have Jace allready besides him, but in this case we are allready far enough ahead). Comparing her to a card like Preacher, who is good with and wihtout a Standstill in play, she lacks that last bit of strengh.
I can agree 100% that, if he sticks, Merfolk has a hard time so kill him, however they can still you Pierce, Ciuse, Daze and FoW to stop the real gamewinners (i.e. Jace and Elspeth). And if they they are smart enough they can grind it out (somebody might call this lame or even go so far to call it stalling but if've seen players walking on the small edge of what is allowed and what isn't).

Again I love Peacekeeper (as much as I love Preacher), they are both powerfull and fun cards to play, but neither on them is superior to each other, as they both have there own playstyle and favorit MU's.

[serendib]

good points.

I play peacekeeper 3/4X sideoard in a UWB control deck which uses 4 baneslayer and 3 jace TMS as finishers and 4 esper charm as draw engine (even 50% of the time I make opponent discard. I usually side out 4 angels when I side in peacekeeper) so I have no experience in having problems with peacekeeper + standstill, but every times I dropped peacekeeper my opponent scooped few turns later and I didn't even needed to let jace in to the win.

The difference between peacekeeper and preacher (or merieke ri berit which I wouldn't play couse to karakas) is that the first one says "game over" for the opponent, while the second doesn't. it just helps greatly our game but it's not as "ultimate" as peacekeeper
(if in both case opponent does not kill our creature)

Do you guys think landstill will have more problems resolving a standstill if mental misstep gets popular?

my self I'm testing encreasing the Swiords to plowshares effects in my deck to avoid the problem.

list:
22 lands (8 fetchs 1 tundra 1 sea 1 scrubland 1 karakas 6 island 3 plains 1 swamp)
4 baneslayer
3 jace tms
2 glen elendra mage
4 brainstorm
3 ponder
4 esper charm
4 force of will
3 counterspell
4 swords to plowshares
3 engineered explosives
2 wrath of god
2 path to exile <--- new entry !
side:
3 peacekeeper
2 meddling mage
2 vendilion clique
2 back to basics
2 relic
1 extiirpate
1 elspeth KE
1 vindicate
1 envelop <-- to face all combo tutors natural order, show and tell and rock's spells (it's my counter n°8 but I have esper charm which is awesome vs combos)

I know my deck has few things in common to landstill. but I believe UWx control decks in general have to face very similar problems

[GGoober]

4 Baneslayer Angel with 22 lands??? O_O I have not tested your list but I'll say that even with that manabase you will be having a tough time resolving Baneslayers, not to mention multiple baneslayers being dead early. I personally like Baneslayer in Legacy but I feel that in a deck like Landstill, it's not worth fighting their removal with your countermagic, especially when you're burned low on countermagic in the early game.


Do you guys think landstill will have more problems resolving a standstill if mental misstep gets popular?

I originally thought that Misstep spells bad news for Landstil i.e. hits our StP etc. But after some deep thinking (spent about 2 hours brewing lists and reflecting the implication on Misstep for non-CBTop control decks in Legacy) and with some affirmation from Shawn, I am sold with Missteps being a huge boost to Landstill, rather than a bane.

The reasons are simple:
1) If everyone starts playing Missteps, then it is only more important to play Missteps to not lose to the tempo/advantage that oppossing missteps is generating.
2) If your opponent isn't playing Missteps e.g. Goblins and other deck-tight decks, then you wiill have a stronger FoW 5-8 when it comes to specifically countering 1cmc spells.
3) Misstep is tremendous against Vial decks. Sure say they Misstepp'd your Misstep, it's all fair, but Landstill will just simply fight the fight on beating vial like it has always done so in the past e.g. with EE. At least you know that's one less Misstep for your StP/Brainstorm.
4) Misstep tremendously boosts the power of Standstill on the play. You can now counter a 1cmc creature with Misstep and lead with a Standstill even if you don't have hands with StP, or if you do have StP, you can save that for post-standstill.
5) Misstep significantly boosts the Goblin, Dredge, Thoughtseize.dec, Top.dec matchups, which are historically 50-50 matchups at best preboard.
6) Landstill has always been a deck very vulnerable in the early game. The ability to play Missteps as an early game counter with minimal resources, countering some of the worst cards that tend to beat landstill decks (namely Thoughtseize/Duress, Lackey, Vial, Top) is a huge step to making the deck have a fighting power in the early game. I'm not listing those 1cmc spells for sake of listing. E.g. When an opponent Thoughtseizes a Landstill v.s. a Counterbalance player, the thoughtseize is going to kill the landstill player more than the Countertop player simply because cards mean a lot more to Landstill players than they mean to Countertop players, who rely on an engine that generates them pseudo card advantage whereas in Landstill we are more fragile to getting our best spell removed. Similarly, it is an uphill battle to fight against decks playing Top/Vial, because Landstill is fundamentally running specific answers, rather than a general set of answers as seen in other controllish decks e.g. Countertop/Junk etc.

I would say that the most relevant point are points 4) and 6). Every other point is dependent on whether opponents are playing Missteps, the nature of their decks etc. TLDR; Missteps gives you huge advantages over decks that don't play Missteps, while breaking even against decks that do pack Missteps. For Landstill, the additional benefit is making Standstill on the play much stronger than before.

[Shawn]

I took a very similar list to the one I took to the GPT to a small tourney today, getting first and walking away with $50 cash. I squeezed two Cliques in place of a Hydroblast and a Tsabo's Decree as I saw there was a bunch of combo there. I played against the following decks:

Elves! (2-1) Game one I drew a bunch of lands and counters after he amassed a horde, game two I had multiple sweepers and Humility, game three I kill a bunch of guys and resolve Jace after he mulliganed to five.

UW Landstill Counterbalance Walkers (2-0) Pretty simple, I drew out counters which enabled me to win the Jace war, countered some Tops, and set up Crucible+Waste both games. Clique was awesome here, allowing for a test spell EOT and allowed me to resolve Crucible or Jaces on my turn.

UG Cloudpost (2-1) Game one I Extirpated Cloudpost and was aggressive with counters on Crop Rotation, g2 I have some counters and Clique, but it reveals Eye of Ugin. G3 was similar to game one, but with Clique.

Enchantress (0-2) I had two Deeds game one, but one was O'Ringed and I couldn't activate the second for enough before he won because of a Suppression Field. G2 I had the Deed, but he had Replenish and I drew dead for a bunch of turns.

Enchantress (2-0) G1 I counter an Argothian, G2 I counter his first three spells, EE for one to cripple his mana, Spellbomb his yard away in response to Replenish counter two more spells, and kill him with Clique.

Bant Aggro (2-0) T2 Standstill resolved, I assembled Crucible. Jace bounces Knight and I EE away a Noble so he can't cast it for several turns and by that time I found a Counterspell. G2 I kill a bunch of guys, resolve Jace and win at a relatively high life total.

[klaus]

Misstep's true home might be Aggro decks, but here's an LS draft that uses a playset that I kinda fancy.

4 Standstill
4 BS
1 Top
3 Jace
1 Elspeth

4 STP
3 Path
2 Shackles
3 EE

4 CS
4 Mental M.
4 FOW

4 Strand
3 Delta
1 Mesa
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Plains
4 Factory
1 Academy Ruins

SB:
3 Firespout
2 Meddling Mage
1 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Aura of Silence
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Red Elemental Blast

[gustha]

Nobody cares that new phyrexia also has an instant speed vindicate that's green (i.e. one of the most played colors of the format, along with blue)?

I'm testing a similar list, klaus, but:

-3 path
-2 shackles
-1 EE
-1 CS

+3 beast within
+3 wrath of god
+1 top

SB:
1 top
3 cb
3 Meddling Mage
1 canonist
2 clique
2 finks
1 shackles
2 don't remember (but something vs merfolk, sure)

[Shawn]

If we are splashing a third color, why not just play Vindicate? I'd much rather have play Vindicate at Sorcery speed than give my opponents free Wild Nacatls.

[The Treefolk Master]

If we are splashing a third color, why not just play Vindicate? I'd much rather have play Vindicate at Sorcery speed than give my opponents free Wild Nacatls.

+1

[GoldenCid]

Not to mention that Beast Within makes our mana base more fragile...

[gustha]

my manabase is

3 island
2 plains
4 tundra
2 tropical
1 savannah
4 mishra
fetches

I really don't see it being fragile. Last pages of the thread contain only admiration for how stable wafo's.tapa-like manabase is, so your comment is a little pointless. (Also, sorry if I ask, but why wasting spaces with monoline comments like "+1" that absolutely lack of any constructive content to the thread?) Klaus and me are running this manabase since we played speedstill (and so before what has been know as WT manabase), manabase has always been our primary concern in landstill.


why not just play Vindicate? I'd much rather have play Vindicate at Sorcery speed than give my opponents free Wild Nacatls.
Then why don't we all play burning wish and are stuck playing cunning wishes, that makes us lose a turn and gives free time walk to opponent? (back in the thread there's mossivo's analisys on that, I think)


As for wild nacatls, since when a vanilla 3/3 is more difficult to answer than any other creature in the format? do you prefer facing a 5/6 tarmogoyf? or an active knight of the reliquary? recurring vendilion clique? active bob? mother of runes? qasali pridemage if you're going to drop something relevant like standstill? phyrexian dreadnought? (also note that cc3 spells will evade counterbalance more easily, since dreadstill will be packing lots of misstepps) iona on the board naming white? lord of atlantis? (assuming you misstepped vial)

As a creature removal, it has 4 advantages:
a) costs 3, so evades mental missteps, and, to a lesser concern, counterbalance (if you misstepped top)
b) can be used in combat phase at instant speed: acts as a time walk (you can protect your planeswalkers, and jace can bounce the token to exile next turn)
c) the 3/3 beast token is rarely relevant to landstill, i.e. more or less always less important than the threat we want to remove
d) does not fall under iona or chalice@1

But Beast within it's NOT only a creature removal. It's something standstill has wished for since it exists: an instant speed vindicate! With mental misstep countering early threats, we have some time to set up the manabase and we can curve better. Why destroying opposing jace on our turn wasting 3 mana, when we can just kill eot, then play our and bounce the token then proceed to win? Oppoents passses the turn with u/r/w open. Beast within the land, then wrath the next turn. Mental misstep top and beast within cb, jace the token and win.

You may object that's a waste of resources, I can respond that it depends, Beast within has pros and cons. I don't claim it to be god or something near, I clearly see its disadvantages. The question is: can we afford these disadvantages, to take full effect of its advantages?

As for pros and cons, i see it's pros being more valuable: if I have to give my opponent a vanilla 3/3 to have a vindicate effect that's light on my manabase and that I can cast any time in the game, giving me free time walks if it's used as a creature removal in combat, removing threats fairly easily, replacing them with a token i can chumblock with soldiers, or bounce with jace, or EE/wrath away, that acts as a permanent krosan grip to everything i need to grip away, as a sinkhole whenever I need to (acting as a counter if my opponent was open for pierce and I didn't have missteps), as a vindicate for opposing planeswalkers.... and i can fit all of these effects in my deck at instant speed and with a very light cost... why don't just try it?

And read: trying. I've not said there's not the possibility to dismiss beast within a simply not fitting in the deck. But without serious testing, how can you say the card is unplayable? For what I see, the card will be able to give new strength to landstill (a nearly dead archetype.. from the most part, as I read the topic, it seems that succes with this deck are limited most of all at local/medium metagames, and most of the most skilled landstill pilot turn to other decks - it's not subjective just track the percentage of posts per pages of the most active posters of the thread, and see how names changed after survival got banned). I may be wrong? Sure I could. At least I'm trying to test and being flexible, not just discard the card on paper for fear of a mere 3/3. (landstill can handle the most powerful creatures of the format, and we're scared of a mere 3/3?)

I can see this card being played as much as mental misstep, since that vanilla 3/3 is a little to no concern for most of the decks playing green: junk (kotr and goyf are bigger, and there's removal), GW maverick (strengthens wasteland plan), even zoo (getting rid of chalice/cb/exalted rhox war monk?). And all of these decks can now have access to a way to get rid of our primary wincondition against them (i.e. jace the fucking mind sculptor) at instant speed. Giving us a little 3/3 to face their goyfs and kotrs and progenitus and other hordes of similar beasts.

EDIT: lots of typos, I'm sorry. Now I gtg.

[Shawn]

Then why don't we all play burning wish and are stuck playing cunning wishes, that makes us lose a turn and gives free time walk to opponent? (back in the thread there's mossivo's analisys on that, I think)

Straw man?




This is Landstill. Your goal main goal is to stop the opponent from killing you. Beast Within does a terrible job of doing so; it causes you to waste additional resources on the 3/3 which could have been spent elsewhere. Vindicate being a sorcery is much less relevant than giving your opponent free cards. The only permanent we care about that can't be handled by STP, Path, Humility, or Wrath is JaceTMS, and it can be handled if you adjust the mana for EE at 4, play Cunning Wish and have REB side, play Vindicate, play Jace, or attacking via Decree or Elspeth tokens, not to mention countering it.

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

While I completely agree with Shawn on running removal that leaves a 3/3 around usually being bad (how close is Pongify to StP, exactly, which is basically the comparison between Vindicate and Beast Within), there are two things that make this card interesting:
- It's an instant. As such there is finally a Cunning Wish target that can kill all kinds of Planeswalkers that also covers the need for a Disenchant-effect at the same time.
- There's one argument for Beast Within that I find rather intriguing that gustha hasn't been making: It allows Landstill to become much more aggressive if the opportunity arises. If you keep removal/countermagic open and the opponent happens to draw a blank (or attacks with something that just dies to a 3/3 - kill my sixth land, block your Warchief seems pretty good) you get to turn one of your lands into a 3/3 at instant speed. This gives any deck running it the ability to suddenly go aggro-control should the opportunity/necessity arise (this is particularly sweet postboard when the opponent should have cut most of his removal or against combo where I would happily trade my third turn landdrop to start clocking without tapping out) and makes it far easier to get Standstill online (eot make a beast, then drop a Standstill).

Giving the opponent 3/3's also happens to have great synergy with Moat, just a thought.

[GGoober]

- There's one argument for Beast Within that I find rather intriguing that gustha hasn't been making: It allows Landstill to become much more aggressive if the opportunity arises. If you keep removal/countermagic open and the opponent happens to draw a blank (or attacks with something that just dies to a 3/3) you get to turn one of your lands into a 3/3 at instant speed. This gives any deck running it the ability to suddenly go aggro-control should the opportunity/necessity arise (this is particularly sweet postboard when the opponent should have cut most of his removal or against combo where I would happily trade my third turn landdrop to start clocking without tapping out).

Giving the opponent 3/3's also happens to have great synergy with Moat, just a thought.

While the card does give that opportunity to do this, I would never use the card in this manner in 99% of the situations I can think of, since I would rather have the card in my hand to answer an opposing winning strategy than waste as a (2G instant, destroy a land you control, put a 3/3 beast into play) unless of course my opponents are playing a really really crappy deck that I do not have to worry about wasting a 2G instant spell to make a 3/3 Beast token.

I've given Beast within some thought, and will probably go about testing it in UWg Wishstill. I don't think it is good in the maindeck at all, given that Landstill's maindeck is already very resilient to all decks except for 1) Merfolks, 2) Fast combo. Beast within does nothing for these 2 matchups, but for everything else, it has some value as a wishable Vindicate. The ONLY vibe I get from Beast Within right now that's deterring me from running it is:

1) UWg Landstill is inferior to UWb Landstill. This is my opinion. I feel that black offers way more in the postboard with/without Wishes. Extirpate is huge in control/combo, Perish is amazing against anything that tries to win with green creatures. It's one of the more unfair cards in the format (specifically against GW decks) right now. It allows goblins (which I tend to view as a crappy deck unless you connect Lackey, yeah I don't care about Vials in Goblins as much as I care about Vials in Merfolks, no offense Goblin players :P) to consistently beat their historically bad GWx matchups, all because of Perish

2) Beast Within can be a great card in Landstill, a great Wish target, but the most fundamental question remains: Does Landstill need Vindicate? I would argue that Landstill does not need Vindicate for most parts, but specific Landstill lists can benefit tremendously from Vindicate (namely Speedstill) or against a meta where vindicate shines. I feel that Beast Within will only benefit those variants, and provide very marginal benefits for most other Landstill lists.

3) Beast Within really doesn't improve the bad matchups of Landstill. I'll go ahead and say that I am very confident taking Landstill to a meta consisting of every deck out there and feel that I have a good chance, and the only bad matchups I fear are fast combo (which I now solve to some degree with Counterbalance in the SB and playing 3 Top maindeck), burn (Counterbalance in SB solves this too, and if it's prevalent, a single Pulse of the Fields and BEBs will beat burn easily), Enchantress (more EEs/Disk/UWg variants work best here), and Merfolks (UWr Landstill does best here but still has a hard time, and UWr is the weakest build most specific to a metagame with Merfolks). Beast Within doesn't solve these problematic matchups (maybe except Enchantress, which something like Harmonic Convergence does better).


TLDR;
Name me situations where Landstill desires a Vindicate effect that the maindeck cannot already handle. I strongly believe that no-Vindicate lists that most people are running these days are very capable of dealing with permanents. Vindicate does shine in some variants of Landstill that work best in the correct metagame (e.g. Speedstil developed by Klaus/Gustha), but aside from those lists which perform best in the right meta, Landstill really doesn't desire Vindicates these days. It's a great card, but most lists these days are very capable on handling permanents with EE (a little more mana intensive but has the potential to sweep).

[Shawn]

If we are concerned about non-Jace walkers and want to find a Wish target that kills them, why not play Rootgrapple? It costs more, but the decks that play walkers give you plenty of time to reach 5. Still, I don't feel a Wishable answer for something like Elspeth is necessary; non-Jace walkers doen't see enough play to warrant the slot.

[GGoober]

2G and 4G is a huge cost-difference, especially with Wishes, making it even slower. I'm not saying that Landstill needs to run an instant wish-solution to Planeswalker, in fact I was pointing out that aside from those targets (which are played so rarely in Legacy), there's really not been a need to play Vindicates these days unless your meta demands it (i.e. a meta where Speedstill functions best).

I wasn't advocating to run Beast Within as a Wish target, but I was definitely pointing out that Beast Within is more of a Wish/SB-slot rather than a maindeck slot. If it is a maindeck slot, then it's probably only going to work for very narrowly meta-gamed Landstill lists, to which Vindicate already does the job pretty well (since those Speedstill lists usually don't play Cunning Wishes, the sorcery v.s. instant debate isn't too huge, and in fact giving your opponents a 3/3 creature from Beast Within doesn't really tie in line with the playstyle of Speedstill at all, which is primarily a deck of 1 for 1s).

To your point, yes, there is no need to run a narrow Wish card that picks off Planeswalker/enchantment/artifact. Dismantling Blow is the best target that I can think of, which provides even greater benefit when you're in the late-game. How many times have I lost to Planeswalker with Landstil? Not too much becauuse aside from CBTop decks and some Junk decks, no one else play Planeswalkers, and Landstill is already quite capable on beating Junk/CBTop decks.

[Shawn]

Wish into Beast Within is only a turn faster than Wish into Rootgrapple, so it's not that much slower. (t3 Wish, t4 Beast as opposed to t3/4 Wish, t5 Rootgrapple).


How many times have I lost to Planeswalker with Landstil? Not too much becauuse aside from CBTop decks and some Junk decks, no one else play Planeswalkers, and Landstill is already quite capable on beating Junk/CBTop decks.

Exactly.

[Jason]

Beast Within is an awful Cunning Wish target. Have I proxied one into my sideboard? No. However, after testing against a slew of decks, I can say I am most regularly wishing for:
Enlightened Tutor
Pulse of the Fields
Extirpate/Surgical Extraction/Ravenous Trap/Mindbreak Trap
Blue/Red Elemental Blast (depending on what color(s) I'm playing)
Diabolic Edict/Path to Exile

Occasionally I wish for:
Dismantling Blow

Not once have I come to a situation where Dismantling Blow, Edict, Path, REB/BEB could not Vindicate whatever slipped through. I guess if my opponent cast Garruk and I didn't have a Counterspell and couldn't Cunning Wish for Negate, I'd be a little annoyed but in my testing, that situation comes up approximately zero percent of the time.

We obviously don't need Beast Within for creature removal (as it gives the opponent a creature)
We shouldn't need Beast Within for enchantment or artifact removal because EE and Cunning Wish into Return to Dust, Fracturing Gust, Dismantling Blow do the same thing.
So that leaves Planeswalkers... which few people run... so why would I want a card that is fringe playable?

[GGoober]

Shawn, being a turn slower is one thing, but don't forget that 2G v.s. 4G is still a big cost-bump, it's not really a turn slower, 2G is a turn faster + 2 more mana open on the earlier turn, or you can have the potential to cast both Wish and Beast Within on the same turn with 6 lands.

Regardless, I don't think Beast Within is the card that I'm concerned for Landstill. Mental Misstep on the other hand, is going to make me play this deck a lot more than I used to. I cannot stress how relevant this card is for a slow control deck like Landstill. You no longer have to look at the hands with FoW and worry about using FoW to a good opposing FoW bait (a good FoW bait by a competent opponent is a spell that HAS to be FoW'd but in fact he has another spell that is also FoW worthy).

I mean, it is relevant from so many angles that SPECIFICALLY hurt Landstill (I'm listing the most common plays that really set Landstill back, and MM is a card that solves these big setbacks very nicely)


Discard/Junk/TA: Misstep on Thoughtseize/Duress, which really sucks for Landstill when you get Duressed on the play/draw and don't really want to FoW.

Goblins: Vial + Lackey

Zoo: Nacatl, Lavamancer. I mean we now no longer have to FoW that Nacatl if we don't have an StP in hand! That's huge!! If Zoo does not get turn 1 Nacatl, the speed loss is at least 2 turns, which is tremendous for Landstill to gain control.

Tempo decks: You can play around Tempo decks all day long as long as you run a stable manabase. Tempo decks will be great utilizing Mental Missteps, but you will blank a lot of their strategies because unlike Countertop, Landstill isn't in a rush to assemble anything. It just wants to hit land drops, try its best to trade spells 1:1, and sweep for x:1

Combo: The very fact that your opponents have to play around both FoW + MM slows them down yet another turn. Most competent combo players will not go off unprotected against a deck that has 10+ hard counters and another +3-6 hard counters postboard. MM can now really hit a combo player's cantrip and reserve FoW for bombs. Landstill did not have the luxury to FoW cantrips unless you drew like a 2-3 FoW hand with additional counters/locks.

The only matchup that I am truly fearful now when MM is legal in Legacy is Merfolks. I feel that MM will be a huge boost to Landstill's ability to fight against bulk of the meta. But Merfolks will still be a problem, and Merfolks with MM is going to be a bigger problem. I think 3 Peacekeeper Postboard should still be able to fight decently, once again, as long as the manabase is stable.

[a-slice-of-cake]

I absolutely agree with you there, Metalwalker. MM is getting a lot of hype, but its two true homes are obvious: UWx Landstill and Tempo decks. That it gives us a hard counter early in the game, where we're typically weakest, is an amazing boon. And yeah, 3x Peacekeeper has been making my Fish matchup post-board rather good.

Beast Within just isn't going to cut it, IMO. It belongs in decks that don't care if their opponent has a 3/3, like Team America. We care quite a bit if they have a 3/3 unless we already have Humility or Moat out -- and if that's the case, we're already in a good position.

[GGoober]

Goblins thread is making me very happy. They are cutting Ringleaders to play MM and Force! (well, they're theory-crafting :))

[mossivo1986]

I don't think mm deserves a slot in landstill. Vial is the only reason to play it, and if your talking about combo breaker, pierce is just a better card out of the board. as for vial, yes its a problem, but its deffinately not the end of the world. Your sideboard should be addressing the vial matchups, mm is not going to transition you ahead of your opponent. and if its not in your opener its only going to set you behind with bad draws in the future, IE drawing more mm's.

as for beast; it seems very valuable. Stopping a jace with wish, as opposed to splashing a third or fourth color for a card like blast seems bad. This is a universal answer. a wish board with green could look something like this

1 e tutor
1 beast
1 pulse
1 path
1 seed spark, ray of distortion.return to dust
1 fracturing gust
1 new free extirpate
1 mindbreak trap
1 ravenous trap
1 negate
5 slots open. That seems fairly reasonable. As for a maindeck

24
4 flooded 1 misty 1 windswept
4 tundra 1 savannah 1 trop 1 plateau
3 island 2 plains
1 karakas
3 mishra
1 ruins
1 bowl

8
4 force
4 cs

11
4 stp
3 ee
2 wrath
1 humility
1 moat

10
4 bs
3 still
1 top
2 jace

3
1 elspeth
2 decree

4
3 wish
1 loam

This is really a rough picture. Add some more removal to the board in the form of path's, peacekeepers, and pierces and it looks pretty saucy to me.

[Jason]

Goblins thread is making me very happy. They are cutting Ringleaders to play MM and Force! (well, they're theory-crafting :))

I read this:


4 Standstill - Replaces ringleader


Now that I'm done laughing, I'm curious, though. How many of these types of whack scenarios are going to appear at the GP? I'm just curious what people think is going to be prevalent, in case my friend does indeed go (we can get playtesting in)

[mossivo1986]

Let time tell whats going to happen. People have been trying to break blue in goblins for a long time. It doesn't make it good. It just makes it.... well goblins. They still have less lords then folk, worse card quality then zoo, and all of them lose to tendrills combo, besides perhaps merfolk, which is arguable.


I forgot to put snare in that list. I would probobly drop the top for a snare.

[GGoober]

Moss I like the list, but it seems to me to be focused more on an aggro game one meta. Strong list overall. I myself have moved away from Decree and 3 Wish MD (I would still play 2 Wishes). Most of the time, I felt the 2nd Top is definitely much more invaluable than the 3rd Wish. The past few playtesting I've done have told me that when I survive to the mid-game where my opponents and I have been exchanging spells v.s. answers, whoever resolves Top will almost 90+% win the game right there. And many times, when both opponents and I are having only Top in play with no cards in hand, using the EE to blow the Top up forcing them to tap-draw and then following up with a Counterspell on Top wins the game as well. The evolution of including Top in mid-range deck is most exemplified with Junk (previously they did not play top) but ever since they had the Mox Diamond + Top + Bob engine, they were doing really well. Meandeck MUD is also almost useless without Tops i.e. I can plow a couple of dudes and win the game right there, but if they have Top, it becomes problematic.

Top is not just good early game, but late-game as well. I'm currently playing with 3 Tops which I'm not fond off (I prefer 2), but I'm accomodating for the 3 SB Counterbalance to aid in matchups like fast combo, Show and Tell and Spiral Tide. I've tested against Spiral Tide and it is almost impossible to win the game without postboard Meddling Mages/Canonist/Counterbalance.

This is the list I'm bringing today, will post results back.

UW(x) Landstill
4/13/2011

24 Lands
4 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Marsh Flats
2 Plains
2 Island
3 Tundra
1 Scrubland
2 Underground Sea
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins
1 Wasteland


11 Draw/Tutor
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
1 Enlightened Tutor

10 Removal
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Wrath of God
1 Humility
1 Nevinryal's Disk

10 Permission
3 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

6 Advantage
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
3 Jace, the Mindsculptor
1 Crucible of Worlds


15 Sideboard
2 Perish
3 Peacekeeper
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Extirpate
3 Meddling Mage
3 Counterbalance

Last few weeks of testing, singleton Disk was invaluable. It maybe a tad slow, but I think the speed is comparable to Deed with the bigger benefit of being entirely colorless (easier with the manabase) and freeing up mana when you're activating it, and being able to kill any cmc permanents sans Planeswalkers. The Meddling Mage is quite needed against combo decks as it complements the Counterbalance package well.

AGainst NoShow, 3 Peacekeepr + 3 Meddling Mage + counterbalance is pretty strong (Perish if needed). Just Counterbalance alone still faces a tough time against Spiral Tide but with MM, they are quite pressed from multiple angles. I used to run Canonist, but I think MM is more invaluable and flexible since it stops NoShow much better than Canonist.

As for MM, I'l get down to testing it when it's released. 4 MM would not be ideal in the MD, but I think 2-3 is great, because Landstill has a ton of outs to 1cmc spells without MM, but it definitely could use the MM because it's exactly these 1cmc spells if resolved tends to put Landstill in a terrible position (Vial/Lackey/Thoughtseize/Duress). If there's a deck other than Stompy that sucks and dies to Duress, it's Landstill (because fundamentally Landstill is built to win the late-game, so one Duress can cost us the early game when the early counters/removals are taken away)

[Royal Ass.]

I played Landstill today in the Qualifier.
This is actually only the second time I played in a legacy tournament. The first time was with a rogue deck at a recent Star City Open.
I literally threw the deck together for the first time today and didn't play test. It was only a 9 man tournament. We had 4 rounds of swiss with the top 4 breaking. I went 2-2-1 and made top 4. I won my semifinal round and then scooped in the finals because the guy was actually going to Rhode Island and I was tired from jet lag and also didn't want to play against goblins.

My matches went like this:

Round 1:
I went 2-0 against Affinity Tezz. This was literally my first time playing the deck and I made a million play mistakes but somehow managed to win. To be fair my opponent didn't seem to competent with his deck either. At one point he played 2 Mox Opals... Basically I was able to keep cranial playing and Tezz off the board to keep him in check.

Round 2.
I lost 0-2 to Merfolk. I lost the second game because I got greedy with fetching for duels and got completely shut down by back to basics. Didn't see that coming.

Round 3. I got a bye.

Round 4. I played against a BGW Stoneforge Sword deck and we drew from running out of time. My opponent had been 3-0 going into the round.

Semi- Well I got paired up with the guy playing the Stoneforge deck from the previous round... I won it in 3. He started going on tilt in the last game because he was pissed I didn't scoop to him cause he was going to Rd. Is. He was throwing a bit of a tantrum which was annoying and kind of immature, although I was playing with his Humility which he let me borrow, so I can't complain. He was also bitching about how his 2000+ rating was going to drop...
All 6 games I played with him were pretty close. Jace TMS and Day of Judgment were the MVPs as well as Spell Snare.

Here is the deck I ran.

Lands:
2 Island
2 Plains
4 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
4 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
1 City of Brass
2 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Karakas
=25

Planeswalkers
2 Jace, TMS
2 Elspeth TKE
=4

Counterspells
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare
=10

Card Draw
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
2 Sensei's Diving Top
1 Fact or Fiction
=11

Other Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Day of Judgment (didn't have WOG)
1 Decree of Justice
1 Crucible of Words
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Humility
=10

Total= 60

Sideboard
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Krosan Grip
1 Spell Pierce
1 Sower of Temptation
2 Pithing Needle
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Circle of Protection Red (only cause it's signed Beta!)

After playing the tournament I would probably take out the Decree of Justice and Fact or Fiction. They are too mana intense. I was used to playing the cards in Type 1 where I usually cast the off Mana Drain. Without Mana Drain I think these two cards are too clunky for Legacy. For 4 Mana I'd rather just cast a Jace or Eslpeth. Also the scenario where you cycle Degree under standstill never presented itself and doesn't seem like it justifies running the card.

I would probably up Spell Snare to 3 main.

For my sideboad I threw in the Tarmogoyfs as a back up plan if I didn't think the deck was working for me since I had never played it. I figured I could just go aggro. I actually sided them in several times and I kind of liked having the option, so I think I would include them again.

I only own one Engineered Explosives and never had the chance to actually play it so I don't know if it's any good but a lot of lists on this thread seem to have multiples. I never felt like I needed it all that much and was generally happy with Day of Judgment and Humility and Swords to take care of creatures.

Mishra's Factory was awesome especially against the Stoneforge deck. I would not run less than 4.

Crucible was also really good at times and I was happy to have a couple Wastelands to recur.

Overall I was very pleased with the deck and want to try running it at some more local tournaments. As an old school Type 1 player this is the closes thing I can get to feeling like the old days. It was great to dust off my old beat up revised Counterspells which I probably haven't played with since 1995. If only I could play with my Mana Drains.. Sigh..

So I got first and second place packs from the prize pull for a total of 14 packs. Notable pulls were a Sword of Feast and Famine, Blinkmoth Nexus, Green Sun Zenith, Mirran and Phyrexian Crusader and a few Go For The Throats.

[kiblast]

Yesterday I played a 50-ish players tournament. Record: a very disappointing 3-3. First thing that comes to mind is that, don't ask me why or how, and maybe it was just bad luck all day, this deck manascrews a lot. Manabase I was running:

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
3 Island
2 Plains
4 Factory
2 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins

Maindeck: I substantially netdecked Metalwalker's list, because I wanted to give a try to the Tops (since when I used to play UWx I didn't run them) and Disk. I only added one more sweeper because my meta is pretty Aggro oriented, so I played with 2 sweepers+ Humility. First thing I want to say is that Disk, in UWx, is fucking impressive. Disk/ Ruins is a weapon of mass destruction. And the Tops were very good all day, saving me from more manascrews and finding win cons and sweepers when needed.

3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
1 Enlightened Tutor
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Wrath of God
1 Humility
1 Nevinryal's Disk
1 Day of Judgement
1 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
3 Jace, the Mindsculptor
1 Crucible of Worlds

Side:

1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Path to Exile
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Energy Flux
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 E Plague
3 Counterbalance

I write very few lines because I can't remember details and don't take notes.
R1: 0-2 loss against Dredge. He goes off both games on turn 2. Apparently 3 pieces of Grave hate + 2 Tutors and 3 Tops to find them are not enough.
R2: 2-0 win against New Horizons. Probably the only Round where I properly do what Landstill should do.
R3: 1-2 loss against Combo Elf. G1 I stare at my Stp/ Stp/ Humility/ WoG hand with no white mana in play ( and I even started land, Top keeping a 2 lands hand); G2 I draw my lands, and of course won the game through WoG and double Plague ( Tutors were invaluable yesterday. I definitely love the singleton maindeck and one more in sb). G3 I open the following hand: Mishra, Mishra, Island, Brainstorm, Jace, Enlightened Tutor, Swords to Plowshares. I thought a lot about keeping or not, I kept, casted an useless Brainstorm, and I lost, remaining blocked at 3 mana (2 colorless 1 blue) with double Tutor in hand.
R4: 2-1 win against Burn ( played by a beautiful girl, if she played blue-based probably I would have fallen in love) I lose the first before I even fetch my first land, G2 and G3 Countertop+ 2 Enlightened Tutors to find the 2 pieces win the games.
R5: 1-0 win against Maverick. I menage to easily win G1, then G2 I stall the game with Humility+ Mishra's Factory and Top, looking for a win con. Time ends before I can find one.
R6: 2-0 loss against Enchantress. This has been the Mu where EE+ Disk+ Ruins has been really, really impressive. And my bad luck has been impressive, too.G1 he goes off turn 4 I think. G2 I Counter his Karmic Justice, then he tries to go off and beats for 16 with some angels during turn 4-6. I sweep the board through multiple Disks ( I think I cleared the board 4-5 times through Disks and EE's), but can't find double W to cast Elspeth, and neither I find a Jace to seal the game. I even started land, Top, but at my 20-25ish turn I still have one W mana. Canonist+Facories provides a nice race and I put him to 3 lifes. Then he casts Blood Moon while I'm tapped out ( could not put Disk on top in response) and I only have Canonist to beat face.He draws Words of War, kills Canonist and finishes me skipping a couple of draws.

All in all, has been great to play again UWx after 6 months of Jace Landeed and 1 month testing Dreadstill. I also like this build a lot, and adapted well to my meta with some tuning ( props Metalwalker). I will probably fit more SB grave hate instead of 2 PtE's. I will also probably cut an Island for a Scrubland. I'm still not completely sure about cutting another Wasteland for the Scrubland and playing Waste as a singleton, as at this point I'd rather don't play Wastelands at all and play, let's say, a Celestial Colonnade or a Kor Haven instead. Thoughts?

[kiblast]

( Double post)

[Royal Ass.]

If you can make it though the first portion of the article without stabbing your eyes out, there is a section discussion Landstill afterwords that might be an interesting read for most:
http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/mind-boggling-technology-wafo-gate-and-landstill/#comment-180112

[mossivo1986]

I'm glad to see landstill getting some review. I am not happy to see the information on it, is for the most part wrong. I like Kyle though.

[GGoober]

kiblast, good job man. I took UWb Landstill to a top 4 at a local tourney (small 12 man).

First, to answer your question on Wasteland. I am definitely certain Landstill needs 1-2 Waste effects in the 75 (or 76). This is not because it needs the Wastelands to win games, but rather, Wasteland provides a function for the deck to get out of situations where you can't get out of without the Wastelands. I've tested extensively 0-2 Wastelands in Landstill, and they each have their own benefits:

0 Wastelands: less colorless sources = strong ability to play double-colored spells like Counterspell, Jace, Elspeth at the RIGHT time.
1 Wastelands: since Landstill games go long, the Wastelands either become relevant with Crucible, or they are very important against hitting key lands e.g. Academy Ruins/Mutavaults etc. When you do draw them early with a non-land-light hand, they are a useful tool against many decks when on the play.
2 Wastelands: I feel 2 Wastelands for most parts is the right amount in Landstill. However, 2 Wastelands has color-screwed me much more than it has helped. It is important to note that color screwing isn't due to the fault on playing 2 Wastelands, but if you're playing lists with 4 Counterspell, 3 Jace, 2 Elspeth, 2 WoG, don't blame it on the 2 Wastelands for color-screw, blame it on yourself for playing too many double-colored spells. Since my list has primarily shifted to playing more double-colored spells, I feel that the most number of non-colored sources i can pack is 6, not 7 (1 Ruin, 1 Wasteland, 4 Factories).

I tried 1 Dustbowl in place of 1 wasteland and I don't like it. Being mana-efficient is much more important than recurring land-D. If you are recurring land-D in Landstill with Bowl, you are really winning since you basically can afford 4 mana a turn to nuke a land in the mid-late game. There are cases where it's not win-more but those cases are extremely rare and are usually classified as win-more strategies.

The list I played this week was:

24 Lands:
4 Strand
3 Misty
1 Marsh Flats (won't go below 8 fetches, it's extremely stable and powerful in a Top-build)
2 Island
2 Plains
3 Tundra
2 Sea
1 Scrub (3rd black source is highly recommended to support Perish against GWx decks packing Knights + wastelands)
4 Factories
1 Ruins
1 Wasteland

Cards: 11
4 Brainstorm
3 Top (best card in the deck, I used to play no-Top for bulk of my time with Landstill, but there's a reason why most mid-range control decks play 3 Tops e.g. Junk, Countertop etc. The person with Top is going to beat a person without Top as long as the game-state is going on in pace with Landstill)
3 Standstill
1 ETutor

Permission: 10 (dropping below 10 feels weak in my testings. You want at least 10 not just for early game stabilizing, but more importantly to ride your planeswalkers safely to victory)
3 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell
4 FoW

Removal: 10
3 EE
4 StP
1 Wog (I might drop the WoG for 2nd Disk or swap Humility for a Disk when MM is out giving the deck a stronger earlier game to push a turn later for a sweeper)
1 Humility
1 Disk

Advantage: 6
3 Jace
2 Elspeth
1 Crucible (sometimes this feels even stronger than a Planeswalker even if you're not recurring Wastelands/Factories i.e. if you have Top + Fetchland with Crucible, it's hard to lose)

SB: 15
3 Peacekeeper
2 Perish
1 Path
2 Extirpate
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Meddling Mage
3 Counterbalance

3 Meddling Mage + 3 Counterbalance with the maindeck package + 2 Extirpate has been tremendously stable and disruptive against combo. Pierce was great too, but it didn't solve some matchups in my own meta (Hypergenesis/Spiral Tide). Mage with Counterbalance is going to lock out Tide and Show players much better than a Pierce (which they will just play around, and since youre not putting opponents on a clock, Pierce is significantly weaker in Landstill than in Aggro control decks).

Mini report later when I have time. Merfolks is stupid, that's all I can say, and drawing my 3rd lands drop on the 9th turn with 2 land hand + Top was annoyiing as hell too, and that happened twice as well.

[GGoober]

Here is my list post NPH. I've been pretty satisfied with it before MM. To include 3 MM, I cut down on -1 WoG, -1 Spell Snare, -1 Jace from the original list and I end up with:

24 Lands
4 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Marsh Flats
2 Plains
2 Island
3 Tundra
1 Scrubland
2 Underground Sea
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins
1 Wasteland


11 Draw/Tutor
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
1 Etutor

9 Removal
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Humility
1 Nevinryal's Disk


12 Permission
3 Mental Misstep
2 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

5 Advantage
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
2 Jace, the Mindsculptor
1 Crucible of Worlds


15 Sideboard
2 Perish
3 Peacekeeper
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Extirpate
3 Meddling Mage
3 Counterbalance

12 Permssion spells (9 early game) seems pretty strong in the early game. This build is more focused against decks that plan to overwhelm you on turns 1-3. I felt that the 1-1-1 WoG/Disk/Humility split I played was pretty strong for the past few months so if the current configuration of 1-1 Disk/Humility with ETutor (I played ETutor in the earlier build as well) does not work out, I can just cut the ETutor for a WoG. However, I feel that with 3 MM, you shouldn't be in situations where you would have needed the 2nd sweeper effect, and I like how I don't have to play a singleton WoG that I can only draw into as an out.

I also like how with 12 Permission, you don't have to autolose against the non-aggro decks, since landstill playing against non-aggro decks game 1 implies that you have more than 10 dead cards lol. MM will change how I approach this deck in the early game i.e. I can treat MM as a creature removal spell against creature decks, or I can be more aggressive against decks with Brainstorm/Duresses when needed. I was really tempted to go up to 4 Standstill but I feel that would require me upping to +2 Path effect to fully abuse 4 Standstills with MM. I wasn't sure if I wanted to cut Spell Snare/Counterspells so depending on my meta, I could go -2 Spell Snare/Counterspell, +1 Path, +4th Standstill. Will be testing this list when NPH is out.

Cheers.

[a-slice-of-cake]

It seems like an even bigger question than the number of Wastelands or the colors of threats is whether you want to run Cunning Wish or not. I've never played Landstill without a Wish board and I've always loved it -- but of course, I don't know what it's like without. Can I get some opinions as to the merits of each?

[Burr]

Been thinking about my SB for a while for an upcoming tourny with an unknown meta, just want to get your guys' input on it (I run a pretty much standard UWb list with 2 cunning wish)

SB:
2x Meddling Mage
3x Peacekeeper
2x Path to Exile
2x Extirpate
2x Negate
1x Pulse of the Fields
1x Ravenous Trap
1x Enlightened Tutor
1x Dismantling Blow

Thinking about switching out the meddling mages for perish since theres been a lot of green critters running around and I fear Zoo. I've never playtested ethersworn canonist in place of meddling mage, how are they? I've yet to get my hands on them. But I'm thinking canonist is only good vs combo decks while meddling mage can randomly come in other matchups like lands (naming loam) or other control decks (counterbalance decks?). I'm not sure... it's been like a year since i've been into magic and recently got back into it.

[Omega]

Hey everyone,

tomorrow, there will be a big Legacy Tournament.

As always, I am expecting a lot of Merfolk and other aggro decks. What colour would be my best options (considering my limited card poo?)

I was thinking Red because it gives :
REB in the sideboard : can be useful against blue deck, and against merfolk as Sword 5-7
Firespout : Elves, Goblin, Merfolk, and other aggro. Comes 1 turn faster than a WOG
Meltdown ??? : I've seen a few affinity in the weekly tournament. Not sure how it will translate to tomorrow's tournament.

Any thoughts?

A second problem arises : I may or may not be able to play with Jace the Mindsculptor. I own exactly NONE. A friend said he will be able to lend me one. What are my options? Since I am already playing Enlightened tutor, is it safe to add a few more and play the Thopter+sword combo?
ty