[Deck] UW(x) Landstill

[rsaunder]

Wow, you're both wrong AND flaming me out. Nice two-for!


@Time: Yes, I'm sure I could have played faster sometimes, but that's not always the case. I can try to work on that, but sometimes in the uber-slow control variants when you go to game 3, it just happens. Like it happened twice to me that day; gaining 5-7 minutes through tighter play would not have given me time to finish game 3, it was just not that close to being done. Sometimes games take time to break and if your opponent wants to go to time, it'll happen.

@Goyf: He's the best goblin ever printed, the best beater ever printed, and some of the best removal ever printed. Yes, he's a lightning rod, but he also gives the deck the clock it needs to beat combo and stall against aggro-control and aggro. You already run creatures in the deck in manlands, which attract removal. He's just another target. If you opponent's playing all sorts of sorcery speed removal, by all means side him out, but in every single control deck I've ever played (save rifter maybe) he's just amazing. Playtest the card before you bash it, because I can tell you haven't.


@Wasteland: I could have sworn that you were one of the only people advocating the dust bowl switch in the thread while others were dimissing it as too slow/too clunky/I don't bother with nonbasic removal anymore. At this point I think you're looking for things to make fun of me for, which I don't appreciate.

@the other list:
I will not be ashamed of posting the list that split the top prize there, and Alix should not be ashamed of piloting it. Obviously the list worked and he played it well. There's little else to say here, because instead of even giving a reason why the deck is "bad" or whatever you see it as, you just decided to mock both the deck and us.

Good day, sir.

[mossivo1986]

Wow, you're both wrong AND flaming me out. Nice two-for!

flaming you out? Im dismissing your points as invalid and telling you like it is.... boy' :)



@Time: Yes, I'm sure I could have played faster sometimes, but that's not always the case. I can try to work on that, but sometimes in the uber-slow control variants when you go to game 3, it just happens. Like it happened twice to me that day; gaining 5-7 minutes through tighter play would not have given me time to finish game 3, it was just not that close to being done. Sometimes games take time to break and if your opponent wants to go to time, it'll happen.


"uber-slow control variants" I would think you were talking about u/w landstill that ran meloku, dragon, a set of mishras and 3 decree as its win conditions. If you want to talk about slow. THATS SLOW. Or how about 4c that I played for about a year, where you end up deeding away decree tokens "painfull".



and if your opponent wants to go to time, it'll happen.


Incorrect, if your opponent wants to go to time and your trying to play out a game, if he stalls you call a judge. If you honestly feel like your being robbed of slow play or might be, there is no harm in asking a judge to warn your opponent. Your not the jerk for trying to play out a game, and bottom line cheating is cheating. No matter how subliminal it may be.


@Goyf: He's the best goblin ever printed, the best beater ever printed, and some of the best removal ever printed. Yes, he's a lightning rod, but he also gives the deck the clock it needs to beat combo and stall against aggro-control and aggro. You already run creatures in the deck in manlands, which attract removal. He's just another target. If you opponent's playing all sorts of sorcery speed removal, by all means side him out, but in every single control deck I've ever played (save rifter maybe) he's just amazing. Playtest the card before you bash it, because I can tell you haven't.

best goblin ever printed?

*your right about beater part. There is nothing that compares to goyf as far as power curve

People who run goyf need to stop using the "it races combo" argument. Landstill traditionally has a great game against combo ANYWAYS so adding goyf is just giftwrapping it.

As for using goyf personally I have, and it ended up win more for me. I tested tacosnapes model a while back and I found goyf to be really not what I was looking for. It got shot down either immidiately, or the aggressive decks ate it with a combat trick "as they do" Bottom line I wasn't able to protect it the same way aggro decks can save theirs. In games where I won because of goyf, it was because my opponent muli'd to 5 and I had double goyf. Thats pretty straight forward to understand why one wins, right?



@Wasteland: I could have sworn that you were one of the only people advocating the dust bowl switch in the thread while others were dimissing it as too slow/too clunky/I don't bother with nonbasic removal anymore. At this point I think you're looking for things to make fun of me for, which I don't appreciate.

Meh don't like dustbowl then dont run it. Btw theres a tourney here in East lansing Michigan jan 16th I believe. Show up, and i'll see you in the archtype mirror :).

[rsaunder]

Considering the time consideration, I was running that sort of landstill. 4x factory, 2x decree, 1x dragon as kill. If this deck wasn't uber-slow, I don't know what is (stax).

I wasn't trying to say that Goyf could race combo. That's just...incorrect. It helps put pressure on alongside mishra's. Part of me disagrees about the "landstill always had a good combo matchup" bit, not because I've ever had any real trouble with combo when playing landstill, but because I've never lost a tournament game to landstill while playing combo. As the combo player, I think I would have hated to see goyf above almost anything else, as 8 counterspell effects can only keep a decent combo player off of the cards for so long. Oh, and it sucked to see counterbalance too. Coimbine the two and combo gets easy.

I would elongate this post, but I have to leave for montreal now. I'll see if I can get wi-fi tonight and finish up this post.

EDIT: Posting this from Canada. Can't remember what I was going to say. Buuuuut hi.

[konsultant]

I have some questions about side board strategy versus Aggro Loam, Survival, and Goblins. These are, for whatever reason, my least favorite match-ups. This is the deck list and sideboard I'm currently running:

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [UNH] Plains
3 [B] Tundra
3 [TE] Wasteland
2 [UNH] Island
2 [B] Tropical Island
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
1 [B] Savannah

// Creatures
2 [PR] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares
4 [FNM] Counterspell
4 [OD] Standstill
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [PT] Wrath of God
2 [FNM] Fact or Fiction
2 [TE] Humility
2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
2 [ALA] Elspeth Knight-Errant

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
SB: 3 [JGC] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [SHM] Runed Halo
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [B] Blue Elemental Blast

Aggro Loam: I usually go -2 Krosan Grip -2 Decree -2 Wrath +3 BEB +3 Relic because Wrath is just overcosted in the matchup when you are mainly getting a 1 for 1 kill. Do I really need Runed Halo when I have access to 7 one mana kill effects on some of their biggest creatures: (swords + relic for vore/goyf and beb + stp versus crusher) and also they can Wish for Reverent Silence to kill Humility and Runed Halo? I definitely fear choke so I'm thinking that dropping the Grips are a bad call, but I'd like some input.

Survival: I usually go -1 Tundra, -1 Decree -1 Eternal Dragon +3 Relic. Do I just board in Relic and the extra Krosan Grip? I like that Grip does give me an extra out to the brokenness that is Survival of the Fittest and Pithing Needle. I brought in Ajani against Survival at the Mana Leak and it just allowed me to win faster with Elspeth on the board.

Goblins: I usually go -2 Krosan Grip -1 Standstill +3 BEB. I think I need Runed Halo against Templar goblins because of the 4-of Siege Gang Commanders. I was told a while back that I do board in Runed Halo, but what do I take out? I like Ajani in this matchup because it allows me to gain life and play offense and defense with my factories at the same time. To board in Ajani, what do I board out? Secret tech I'm missing? I've tested goblins a bunch and still can't seem to get the sideboard strategy correct.

Any help and comments would be greatly appreciated.

I tend to take a different approach to sideboarding but this is what has been working for me atleast. One note first, if I was running that list I would change the Sb a touch -3 BEB, +2 Crucible and +1 Meddling Mage.

Aggro loam, -2 Grip, -2 Wrath, -2 Humility, +4 Mage, +2 Ajani. I haven't tested Elspeth in this match but if I had to guess I would still say that it is better than Crucible here. You are going to lose to the Loam more times than not, Go Aggro. Focus counter magic on keeping creatures out of play. Personally I name Dreams with Mage. Get Plainswalkers out and going as fast as possable, they have no way to remove them and Ajani ends the game very fast while still trumping thier creatures. If you focus all your counters and removal on keeping thier creatures out of play, being mindful of Dreams of course, you should be able to over power them. Also once a plainswalker comes down Dreams isn't a viable card for them to play anymore. Soldier tokens suck in this match but an Angel token or two will end things quickly. Don't give them anymore time to get the Loam engine going then you have to. I don't reccomend graveyard hate here, they are better equipped to fight graveyard removal then they are for the plainswalkers paired with Landstills removal package. Fetch out basics asap and mull subpar hands and this should be a very winnable match up.

I didn't ever test this build against Survival, in my build I focus on disrupting thier mana base with Wastelands and Vindicate's until Decree for angels or Ajani is online. Same general principle applies though, you aren't winning against these decks until you are going aggro on them, so set your deck up to get aggresive faster. Survival has alot more card advantage than Landstill and can be a very difficult match. Hoping for some luck doesn't hurt, without Survival they are just playing a bad aggro deck or if you can drop Humility and they don't draw Grip you can roll them. Crucible is a solid card to bring in here. The more you can deny them Mana the longer it will take for thier deck to become a real threat not to mention chump blocking Factories can buy you time to recover.

Goblins shouldn't be that hard of a match, board out the 2 Grips and bring in 2 Crucibles. Your build of only 2x Wrath is alittle risky especially since you don't have access to plague in the SB. Humility and Crucible are the MVP's here. You should be able to find them and hide behind them faster then they can draw Grips to get rid of them. Leave the Standstills in the deck, Aether Vial is the only card they have that would stop you from dropping Standstill so always save Explosives to deal with them and focus your counters on keeping Vial out of play. They have an incredible draw engine, crippling your own isn't going to help you win this match.

My SB strategies aren't always that popular but they have been working well for me in testing and actual tournament play.

[rockout]

@Konsultant: First of, thanks for the input.

Second, how does your Dragonstompy MU pan out without a BEB-effect? I know mulling to force for the initial turn 1 moon effect is good and dropping a fetch to get a plains/island on your following is better, but this decks just seems to roll to moon without atleast access to a basic and that is where BEB-effects are supposed to shine.

Your boarding strategy seems really good. No questions there.

It's really weird. As I re-read and re-read your post, I start to understand a lot better how the games pan out with those strategies. Funny that you mention Crucible because I was just discussing yesterday, with my teammates, how good crucible is again and should definitely be in the deck. I tried dropping the grips to the SB and running 2 crucibles main, but I felt the 2x Dragon + 2x Crucible was too much of a good thing. I also tested a 1x Dragon + 1x Crucible + 1x Runed Halo with an E. Tutor SB to fetch some more Humilities, EE, ... whatever, but unfortunately it didn't pan out as well as I'd hoped. Overall, I do think Crucible deserves a spot, but over BEB, I guess a x3 SB slot that's really only good against Gobos and DS can be dropped for a SB slot that helps against a larger range of decks.

Thanks and take care.

[konsultant]

@Konsultant: First of, thanks for the input.

Second, how does your Dragonstompy MU pan out without a BEB-effect? I know mulling to force for the initial turn 1 moon effect is good and dropping a fetch to get a plains/island on your following is better, but this decks just seems to roll to moon without atleast access to a basic and that is where BEB-effects are supposed to shine.

Your boarding strategy seems really good. No questions there.

It's really weird. As I re-read and re-read your post, I start to understand a lot better how the games pan out with those strategies. Funny that you mention Crucible because I was just discussing yesterday, with my teammates, how good crucible is again and should definitely be in the deck. I tried dropping the grips to the SB and running 2 crucibles main, but I felt the 2x Dragon + 2x Crucible was too much of a good thing. I also tested a 1x Dragon + 1x Crucible + 1x Runed Halo with an E. Tutor SB to fetch some more Humilities, EE, ... whatever, but unfortunately it didn't pan out as well as I'd hoped. Overall, I do think Crucible deserves a spot, but over BEB, I guess a x3 SB slot that's really only good against Gobos and DS can be dropped for a SB slot that helps against a larger range of decks.

Thanks and take care.

I'm running 5x Basics, 5x Fetchlands and 2x Dragons. I mull to basic lands rather than FOW, so far I am x-0 against DS in tournaments. Sometimes you just need to be alittle brave, they don't always have turn 1 Moon and a turn 2 Moon is alot easier to deal with. Don't be afraid to risk going to game 3, if you have a solid hand that doesn't have basics you may be better off chancing things if they haven't won a game yet.

I'd stick with the 2x Grip in the MD, I really enjoyed running my version of that list. In the end of my own testing I just came to the conclusion that UWb offered more for the entire Legacy format and I so I am running that build.

Glad to help.

[mossivo1986]

@Konsultant: First of, thanks for the input.

Second, how does your Dragonstompy MU pan out without a BEB-effect? I know mulling to force for the initial turn 1 moon effect is good and dropping a fetch to get a plains/island on your following is better, but this decks just seems to roll to moon without atleast access to a basic and that is where BEB-effects are supposed to shine.

Your boarding strategy seems really good. No questions there.

It's really weird. As I re-read and re-read your post, I start to understand a lot better how the games pan out with those strategies. Funny that you mention Crucible because I was just discussing yesterday, with my teammates, how good crucible is again and should definitely be in the deck. I tried dropping the grips to the SB and running 2 crucibles main, but I felt the 2x Dragon + 2x Crucible was too much of a good thing. I also tested a 1x Dragon + 1x Crucible + 1x Runed Halo with an E. Tutor SB to fetch some more Humilities, EE, ... whatever, but unfortunately it didn't pan out as well as I'd hoped. Overall, I do think Crucible deserves a spot, but over BEB, I guess a x3 SB slot that's really only good against Gobos and DS can be dropped for a SB slot that helps against a larger range of decks.

Thanks and take care.

I'm REALLY glad you brought this up. First off I would like to say the 4c mu vs dstompy is such a bitch for obvious reasons. On a second note the model dif plays you basicly force a challice have an ee in hand or are on the play and spell snare it and your fine. Other then that you shouldn't have problems with it. Also there are 3 plains 4 islands and 2-1 hydro-beb split post board.

My gosh I used to hate that matchup though.

Also to note, some good advice on the loam matchup. Like the other gentlemen said, dont sit back. Be VERY aggresive, and thats how you can win pre board. Post board you get an ajanji apparently and its like gg. but as for pre board thats what ive been told as well and it makes sense theoreticly. I still need to test the matchup more.

The matchup I still fear the most is 43 land, but I dont see it being winnable via landstill unless we ran bloodmoon pffft.

[ChiiMagic]

I have to agree. The 43 Land matchup is the one that I REALLY hate to look at opposite me, but I have been able to take wins out of it, most recently at the Legacy side event at worlds (I went 4-2 drop before the last round) I had to play it round 1. I have found that they key is to stick a Meddling Mage on LFTL early and they are pretty much dead in the water. I obviously got pounded game 1 because the recurring wastelands and Rishadan Ports hitting your lands is too much to deal with. However, game 2 I snuck in an early Meddling Mage and like the champ my opponent was, he did not assume that I would bring in Mages and did not bring in the Firebolt they are supposed to, so he tried to find a Barbarian Ring and threshold while I went Meddling Mage beatdown. Game 3 I landed another Mage and it slowed him down so much he couldn't find his Firebolt before I found another Mage to put on Firebolt. From there you can pretty much control the whole game and Wasteland + Crucible their whole board. Also, if you are using Tormod's Crypts like I am, or Relic of Progenitus as some other people prefer, they are also a beating against the Loam recursion.

[mossivo1986]

I have to agree. The 43 Land matchup is the one that I REALLY hate to look at opposite me, but I have been able to take wins out of it, most recently at the Legacy side event at worlds (I went 4-2 drop before the last round) I had to play it round 1. I have found that they key is to stick a Meddling Mage on LFTL early and they are pretty much dead in the water. I obviously got pounded game 1 because the recurring wastelands and Rishadan Ports hitting your lands is too much to deal with. However, game 2 I snuck in an early Meddling Mage and like the champ my opponent was, he did not assume that I would bring in Mages and did not bring in the Firebolt they are supposed to, so he tried to find a Barbarian Ring and threshold while I went Meddling Mage beatdown. Game 3 I landed another Mage and it slowed him down so much he couldn't find his Firebolt before I found another Mage to put on Firebolt. From there you can pretty much control the whole game and Wasteland + Crucible their whole board. Also, if you are using Tormod's Crypts like I am, or Relic of Progenitus as some other people prefer, they are also a beating against the Loam recursion.


Ive only ever beat 43 land with 4 color of all models, I got my LFTL before he got it, and at the time I was running wasteland as well. I laughed soo hard.

[Illissius]

I dunno. I've only played 43 lands vs Landstill once, and I was on the Lands side of the matchup. I got my Loams Extirpated, and then he had more removal than I had manlands and I just lost horribly. It was also painfully boring. YMMV.

[mossivo1986]

I dunno. I've only played 43 lands vs Landstill once, and I was on the Lands side of the matchup. I got my Loams Extirpated, and then he had more removal than I had manlands and I just lost horribly. It was also painfully boring. YMMV.

So since theres about a foot of snow on the ground I invite anyone for some playtesting today. My aim is mossivo1986. feel free to im me.

[rsaunder]

I've personally never won a match with landstill aginst 43land. I've pulled out games mostly due to bad luck on their part (manascrew of some sort) and due to getting wasteland+crucible online before they could do anything about it alongside graveyard removal. That was back when I was still running furnace though it would still certainly work with relic (waste, remove. next turn, recur waste and remove). All in all, a matchup I'm glad i don't see much of.

[mossivo1986]

I've personally never won a match with landstill aginst 43land. I've pulled out games mostly due to bad luck on their part (manascrew of some sort) and due to getting wasteland+crucible online before they could do anything about it alongside graveyard removal. That was back when I was still running furnace though it would still certainly work with relic (waste, remove. next turn, recur waste and remove). All in all, a matchup I'm glad i don't see much of.

yeah I agree, its too bad we dont have like an auto win in the sb like painters servent grindstone or something.

[mossivo1986]

whos going to gp chicago in march? We have to start talking about possible meta games and what not. Wheres taco snape and dif when I need them agh!!.

Anyways I have no idea what to expect.

some people are saying ichorid, but that doesn't make much sense to me at all with relic being soo good, but it does race TA and I think it can handle dreadstill as well.

[rockout]

Team America, Dreadstill, Thresh, Combo, Goyf Sligh, Goblins and Me playing Landstill.

[rsaunder]

I've been saying this everywhere: Ichorid will show up. It's easy to play and easily ported, which is important for a GP. Especially when it's in the midwest which is prime Vintage territory.

Also, I plan on attending.

[mossivo1986]

I've been saying this everywhere: Ichorid will show up. It's easy to play and easily ported, which is important for a GP. Especially when it's in the midwest which is prime Vintage territory.

Also, I plan on attending.

Ok so with that said I think these will be present.

Dreadstill
TA
RDW "Ive been seeing it piloted alot in michigan lately"
Goblins. The last major tourney I played in there were countless goblins.
Also something tells me that Dstompy is going to be played pretty heavily.

also if your right, I need to play against ichorid. Something tells me its going to be not a fun ride.

[rsaunder]

also if your right, I need to play against ichorid. Something tells me its going to be not a fun ride.
It's one of those matchups that might be better served by taking a loss and getting food. Having a deed/EE@0 prevents combo shennagins (wasting your own mishra's is pretty tech if you play waste), but ichorids themselvs are a bitch. Play relic, try to take out 1 or 2, STP them, basically remove the ichorids. It's not a fun matchup.

[rockout]

The way I see this GP is build a sideboard that fights every bad match-up you can think of. We'll obviously need Graveyard, Combo, LD, and Burn/Aggro.

Ajani and Plague = Burn/Aggro
Runed Halo and Meddling Mage = Combo
LD = You have to be running Crucible because Team America will show up in force.
Relic = Graveyard Hate that Cantrips

Do we need BEB effects or can we just pray to god we don't face burn more than once on day 1? Start brainstorming people. We should all be running enough basics and eternal dragons to get out from under DS moon effects.

[mossivo1986]

The way I see this GP is build a sideboard that fights every bad match-up you can think of. We'll obviously need Graveyard, Combo, LD, and Burn/Aggro.

Ajani and Plague = Burn/Aggro
Runed Halo and Meddling Mage = Combo
LD = You have to be running Crucible because Team America will show up in force.
Relic = Graveyard Hate that Cantrips

Do we need BEB effects or can we just pray to god we don't face burn more than once on day 1? Start brainstorming people. We should all be running enough basics and eternal dragons to get out from under DS moon effects.

keep in mind that we can go x-2 so lets do some testing guys. Im me mossivo1986 on aim

[rsaunder]

Okay, so are you guys thinking UW w/ wasteland+crucible, or perhaps something else? Green splash for Monestary+Grip+EE@3+LFtL? UWb sounds weak, for some reason.

I think burn's not gonna be huge, at least after round 3/4 since all of the scrubs will be dropping at that point. Besides, counterbalance wrecks them.

If I were running straight UW, I think I'd probably go 3xWaste+Crucible MB with a SB of:

4 BEB
2 Ajani
3 Meddling Mage
3 Runed Halo
3 Divert

That should be plenty nasty against red jank (zoo, gobbos, minimal burn), combo, and TA (divert is SVJ). The MB should be able to handle control variants.

[bigbear102]

Should Divert be Disrupt? It seems like Sinkhole would be the best target for Divert, and TA already can run on two lands, so it wouldn't be too huge to hit their land.

Disrupt seems like it would be useful in a lot more matchups also, countering more spells. It also gives you the cantrip effect even if they can pay for it which will put you farther ahead against aggro control like TA and stuff like burn.

[Hitman82]

I don't think Ichorid will be played in large numbers because Goblins should be out in force.

Landstill-esque decks will probably be floating around but the successful ones won't be regular builds because they're not versatile enough. Bardo's latest list looks like an excellent variant to bring to the GP because it doesn't have many terrible matchups. It looks like the best, versatile spells in Legacy thrown together in one deck. Control decks that don't savagely attack resources will be hard pressed to be relevant in a relatively wide open field. You would need to either be very generic and versatile across the board or just attack the mana so opponent's spells won't be able to be cast in the first place.

It should be safe to assume that Goblins, Threshold and various combo builds will form the majority of the GP metagame. Threshold is the most versatile and generally considered the best "control" deck in the format. Goblins is generally considered the best aggro deck. The new Elves lists could be strong and ANT will be played because of it's broken factor. While Landstill should beat these decks, the hard match-ups will be early on in the swiss where you face Burn, Goyf/Sligh and the like. If you're deck isn't versatile enough to get through the early matches, you could very well not even get to the good match-ups later on.

I think the real techy deck choices will be Magus of the Moon-based decks, like Painter and Dragon Stompy. They can just attack the mana and let you lose to your own deck construction. While they may not be objectively the strongest decks, they should fare well in a wide open field because they can largely ignore the idea of an unwinnable match-up due to the nature of their deck's primary goals. Mana superiority is better than card advantage and mana efficiency. If you can't cast your cards in the first place, who cares if you're playing great cards?

I would make my card choices based on these considerations. I think clunky, expensive cards will not be the best at the March GP. Ichorid should be blown out of the water in the early swiss and versatile, mana efficient decks with the above strategies in mind should come out on top at the end of the day.

As an aside, I don't expect Dreadstill to do well at the GP. I'm actually surprised it's done as well as it has. The deck is a two-for-one magnet. Dreadnought is trumped by E.E., Swords, Smother, Threads......fill in the blank and Factory is equally vulnerable to Pithing Needle, Wasteland, Back to Basics, Magus of the Moon, etc. I think Dreadstill is a niche deck that does well in a smaller, local setting, more akin to traditional Legacy tournaments. The GP shouldn't resemble that.

[mossivo1986]

Okay, so are you guys thinking UW w/ wasteland+crucible, or perhaps something else? Green splash for Monestary+Grip+EE@3+LFtL? UWb sounds weak, for some reason.

I think burn's not gonna be huge, at least after round 3/4 since all of the scrubs will be dropping at that point. Besides, counterbalance wrecks them.

If I were running straight UW, I think I'd probably go 3xWaste+Crucible MB with a SB of:

4 BEB
2 Ajani
3 Meddling Mage
3 Runed Halo
3 Divert


That should be plenty nasty against red jank (zoo, gobbos, minimal burn), combo, and TA (divert is SVJ). The MB should be able to handle control variants.

I'd probobly do it something like this:

// Lands
1 [JU] Nantuko Monastery
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [B] Tropical Island
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
4 [B] Tundra
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
2 [UNH] Plains
1 [UNH] Forest
4 [UNH] Island
1 [B] Savannah

// Creatures
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant

// Spells
2[6E] Enlightened Tutor
2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
4 [OD] Standstill
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
2 [B] Wrath of God
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
2 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [LRW] Ponder
4 [IA] Brainstorm
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
1 [TE] Humility
1 [chk] Sensei's devining top

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 2 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 2 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
SB: 1 [SHM] Runed Halo
SB: 2 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist





Should Divert be Disrupt? It seems like Sinkhole would be the best target for Divert, and TA already can run on two lands, so it wouldn't be too huge to hit their land.

Disrupt seems like it would be useful in a lot more matchups also, countering more spells. It also gives you the cantrip effect even if they can pay for it which will put you farther ahead against aggro control like TA and stuff like burn.


I dont know if disrupt is worth landstills time honestly. Spell snare fills disrupts slot pretty handily

[rockout]

Disrupt is counter unless they pay 1 mana. I'd rather run a blast effect or Divert over Disrupt. Divert changes a burn spell into a possible 2 for 1 for a singular blue mana. Divert also have the nice bluff effect similar to stifle where once your opponent sees it he'll have it in the back of his mind each turn when you leave one blue open.

All in all, I'd run Blue Elemental Blast. It's a counter and another targeted kill spell.

[Rood]

As an aside, I don't expect Dreadstill to do well at the GP. I'm actually surprised it's done as well as it has. The deck is a two-for-one magnet. Dreadnought is trumped by E.E., Swords, Smother, Threads......fill in the blank and Factory is equally vulnerable to Pithing Needle, Wasteland, Back to Basics, Magus of the Moon, etc. I think Dreadstill is a niche deck that does well in a smaller, local setting, more akin to traditional Legacy tournaments. The GP shouldn't resemble that.
Very surprising indeed. It's only won two of the biggest tournaments so far this year, but why should you expect it to do well at this right? If your oponent is playing Shatter Dreadstill can never win...2 for 1'd all day.

[mossivo1986]

hardy har har! I love the sarcasm.

Anyways uwb is the best choice for landstill both because of its resiliancy to stifle and wasteland and the ability to still mantain its control early enough in the game to stay in it.

The problem with the other versions 4 c 2 c ect, is their lack of window in the early game. you cant rely on having swords and force in every opening 7 so you need additional draw to get to these cards as well as your land drops ect. This is why Dif and others have preached ponder soo heavily. I wasn't a believer at first, but then again I didn't buy into dustbowl until the last tourney I played in where it basicly won me 3 matches "the mirror, dstompy, and ug tri." I urge you all to play ponder as it is amazing.

Also the wish board for pate and pulse make it win games more often then not. I'm sticking with uwb_wish_still and ill see you all in chicago :)

[ChiiMagic]

If people really start to pick up Team America in my area I think Teferi's Response would be the way to go. I live in a play in the Chicago metagame regularly, and have played Team America at least once in the last 3 tournaments that I've participated in, however I don't think it actually needs its own sideboard slot. I've been beating it pretty regularly with mediocre draws. It only has 8 threats in the deck, so the key is to nuke them as they come out, and their mana disruption will not get them there against a Landstill deck. Let them stifle your fetches and waste whatever the hell they want because we play extremely land heavy decks. STP the tombstalkers and let the Goyfs get mopped up by EE. The only time you should have to expend FOW or any permission should be to make sure your removal gets through. You NEED the STP on tombstalker to resolve, and the EE on goyf cannot be allowed to be stifled. i think if you guys try these approaches you'll have much more success against that deck.

[rockout]

I agree with you Chill. TA doesn't run enough threats and we run more than enough removal to deal. An obvious god draw of t1 thoughtseize, t2 sinkhole, t3 sinkhole/wasteland and drop tombstalker can make for tough times. But, most of the time it's not that bad to drop lands and answer the threats as they come.

[ChiiMagic]

Glad we're on the same page. For the GP I don't think I will really be changing my maindeck or SB at all, simply because I think I have found the correct amount of cards I want for any larger event. This is the same SB i ran when I top 8ed that legacy event at GP Indy, the one for like 40 duals or something if anyone remember that.

4 Meddling Mage
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Nevinyrral's Disk

The Meddling Mages are by far my favorite card to bring in the SB. i bring them in against a variety of decks, namely loam decks, belcher, high tide, ANT, but also against team america or any deck I like to call BG poop. Naming pernicious deed or tombstalker is pretty good after they board out their removal.
The Red Elemental Blasts are RIDICULOUS. I know many of you are not playing Red, but if you are there is no better feeling than blasting a FOW with a one mana spell.
The Blue Elemental Blasts are also amazing against goblins, loam, belcher, and random sly decks.
The crypts are REALLY good in the mirror. They help to break crucible fights, kill loam decks, ichorid, stax.
I run Engineered Explosives in the main, but sometimes they need to be backed up by something that cannot be stifled, so the Nevi Disk does a good job of breaking through counterbalances and killing gofys and mongoose, but most of all the selling point on disk for me was the rise of Dragon Stompy. No better way to spend a billion red mana than to cast Disk. Also, I run Academy Ruins in my deck, so all the aforementioned artifacts are up for recycling.

[rockout]

What color Landstill are you running? Uwr? Post your list.

[Citrus-God]

My general strategy against TA is to just keep their threats off the board. Post board, I just try and Extirpate one of their threats or I use Extirpates on Wasteland/Sinkhole early on so I can stabilize faster. I also board Runed Halos in against TA as well, just because it's more efficient than WoG.

[mossivo1986]

My general strategy against TA is to just keep their threats off the board. Post board, I just try and Extirpate one of their threats or I use Extirpates on Wasteland/Sinkhole early on so I can stabilize faster. I also board Runed Halos in against TA as well, just because it's more efficient than WoG.

and the fact that its amazing?

I can't see how TA wins pre board if you land humility. Runed halo on tombstalker has to be a sexy play as well.

[klaus]

and the fact that its amazing?
I can't see how TA wins pre board if you land humility. Runed halo on tombstalker has to be a sexy play as well.

This reasoning tends get obsoleted by the fact that the LS player will rarely get beyond 3 lands in play AND play around Daze and FOW to Force Humi through.

TA will remain an unfavorable MU, unless we decide to add more hate to the SB.
Yes. Runed Halo does rock and running 4 in your SB will make this MU about even, probably - I'm still hesitant to cut my good ol' Mages for them however, not gonna happen, I think.

[mossivo1986]

This reasoning tends get obsoleted by the fact that the LS player will rarely get beyond 3 lands in play AND play around Daze and FOW to Force Humi through.

TA will remain an unfavorable MU, unless we decide to add more hate to the SB.
Yes. Runed Halo does rock and running 4 in your SB will make this MU about even, probably - I'm still hesitant to cut my good ol' Mages for them however, not gonna happen, I think.

Interesting that you feel 3 land is the cut.

[DuKeLiO]

My version with 4 Stp, 4 Vindicates, 3 EE and 2 WoG does very well with or without side against Team America. The deck runs very few threaths, and if you stop them on the first turns, you will win the game easily. All you need against TA is chep removal.

[rockout]

Anyone have any ideas on Merfolk and testing against Merfolk. It's a pretty good deck in Standard and Block so I have a feeling it will show up at the GP, maybe not in force as say Thresh/Combo, but to the point where I might see it once. Really efficient, Islandwalkers, and a similar counter suite to us with manlands and standstill with aether vial. Their man lands don't match up to ours unless they have a pumper out (lord of atlantis/rejeerey.) I run plague out of the board so it shouldn't be too tough of a matchup, but wanted to make sure I mention it to everyone here and get some chatter about the MU.

2? or 1? Merfolk deck(s) made it to the top 8 at the Beta Duals up in NY a few weeks ago.

[mossivo1986]

Merlfolk as we spoke seems like one of those just pure bad matchups. theres virtually nothing I can think of you can do except for have plagues in your side or have a good matchup against them. The creatures are cheap enough that wrath doesnt matter. They have more counter magic then us and they have islandwalk, so even if we could block like thresh matchups it doesnt make a difference in this one. However with that said I dont think they can beat a challice set at 2 and I think they have autolosses more so then we do because of the current builds. I deffinately dont see how they beat aggro decks or any deck running a stax set up. Overall I wouldnt worry the chances we will face @ gp chicago.

[konsultant]

My version with 4 Stp, 4 Vindicates, 3 EE and 2 WoG does very well with or without side against Team America. The deck runs very few threaths, and if you stop them on the first turns, you will win the game easily. All you need against TA is chep removal.

This MU is one where the 4x Vindicate idea shines. I did lose to it at my last big event but it was more because I had an idiot moment and walked into a Stifle on a fetch that I could have avoided and 2x Dazes in the first three turns. Wrath really costs 5 against a deck packing Daze and this deck can keep you off 5 Mana for awhile. I can see how the UWg lists could have some trouble with it. Halo works great unless they Grip it or it gets Spell Snared. Personally I only board in Halo for game 3 if they get to it.


I'll be attending the Gp as well and I would expect to see alot of Blue Mana deniel decks all day long. Either Dreadstill, Team America or good old Tempo Thresh. I will be setting up my MD to crush these decks. They are easy decks to play and a good player unfamiliar to Legacy could easily do well with any of them. I'd also expect to see a large amount of Goblins, while the Combo decks will definetly be present I imagine more people will favor decks with alot more consistency. Once you get threw the first 5 or 6 rounds [assuming you are x-0] I'd be very surprised to run into any of the Combo or Loam decks. For the sake of as many rounds as this event is gonna be Goblins, Landstill, and Blue Mana Deniel decks are the strongest and most consistent in Legacy, when you start playing against other players capable of going x-0 I think you will see alot of them realize the importance of consistency in an event like this.

[FredMaster]

This MU is one where the 4x Vindicate idea shines. I did lose to it at my last big event but it was more because I had an idiot moment and walked into a Stifle on a fetch that I could have avoided and 2x Dazes in the first three turns.
I disagree. Imo you don't want to fetch, if you even want to fetch early, for duals. Vindicates has tough manacosts for a deck that wants a blue mana first turn and maybe a second one at the second turn.
Giving them numerous targets for their Stifles can't be the correct plan.
To me Vindicate is the alternative for the Wish and not primarily another StP.

And I have stumbled across TA during some tournaments lately again and I can only repeat myself:
I have no problems against the deck if it doesn't draw infinite LD.

[konsultant]

I disagree. Imo you don't want to fetch, if you even want to fetch early, for duals. Vindicates has tough manacosts for a deck that wants a blue mana first turn and maybe a second one at the second turn.
Giving them numerous targets for their Stifles can't be the correct plan.
To me Vindicate is the alternative for the Wish and not primarily another StP.

And I have stumbled across TA during some tournaments lately again and I can only repeat myself:
I have no problems against the deck if it doesn't draw infinite LD.

I kept a very risky hand of Polluted Delta as my only mana source and I was on the play, I did have 2x STP, Brainstorm and Fow with a FoF as a pitch card. I played the Delta and had to decide if I was more concerned about Stifle or Wasteland, I guessed against Stifle and passed the turn not wanting to fetch a basic or walk into Waste. I drew an irrelevent card for turn and decided to use the fetch to get an island to cast the Brainstorm, Stifle was cast and I responded with Fow whitch promptly got Dazed. It was situational and I made a guess that just turned out to be very wrong.

Against a creature based deck like this you can practically play the entire game without Blue mana, in fact I board out Counterspells in Favor of Crucible's. Atleast with the build I have I actually run a basic Swamp stopping Wasteland from denying me Black Mana. I do agree that Landstill should win this match up but Tombstalker can't be killed by EE whitch only leaves UWg builds with Wrath and STP to deal with them. Factor in thier discard and counter magic effects and IMHO the UWb builds running Vindicate have a signifigant advantage.

[Illissius]

Warning: The following idea does not follow the same design as orthodox UWx Landstill. If you suggest that it's inferior for this reason and that I modify it so that it does, I will narrow my eyes at you.

So I've been thinking about Jace Beleren. It's sort of like a perpetual Standstill, in that as long as you can keep controlling the board, you keep drawing cards. And drawing cards helps you control the board, so that's a pretty sweet positive feedback loop. And unlike Standstill, if you don't have control of the board, it at least cantrips, and usually draws some damage away. Furthermore some decks, like control decks, don't play many creatures in the first place, which means Jace is very good against them. So Jace Beleren seems like a pretty powerful card. To maximize its effectiveness, you need to maximize your ability to control the board, which you can do with either creatures or removal. Removal is more of a sure thing, so I decided to go that route. White and black have the most and best playable removal, and once I have all that removal, I might as well play actual Standstills as well, so that leads me to a build of UWB Landstill.

The first draft looks like this:

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Jace Beleren
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Innocent Blood
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Vindicate
2 Wrath of God
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Kor Haven
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
2 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 3 Duress
SB: 3 Extirpate
SB: 3 Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 3 Humility

The italicized cards are variable, I will get to them in a moment.

A core assumption of this build is that the Legacy metagame these days is chock full of decks which rely on a small number of (usually large) creatures to win. Examples are Dreadstill, Team America, Threshold, Aggro Loam, Goyf Sligh, and Faerie Stompy (to an extent). This deck is aimed squarely at those decks. If your metagame is different, play a different deck. The plan, therefore, is to use lots of spot removal to clear away the few creatures on the board, and then draw lots of cards with Jace and Standstill, which you use to continue keeping the board clear.

Other stuff:

- Instead of Innocent Blood, you could use Diabolic or Chainer's Edict or Smother or whatever (not, unfortunately, Runed Halo, because it doesn't protect Jace), and instead of Elspeth, you could use any number of other win conditions. I went with this combination because I like Innocent Blood because it's one mana cheaper, because Elspeth is what appears to be the least expensive win condition and can act as pseudo-removal by chump blocking a creature perpetually, and because Planeswalkers are good against control decks so having six of them sounds like a fine idea.

- Wrath of God could also be Humility, Moat, The Abyss, or, I suppose, the fourth copies of Vindicate and Explosives. I'm really not sure what to use here. Basically, while most decks will only throw one creature at you at a time, some of them will throw a lot more, so while Wrath will sometimes just be a really expensive spot removal spell, sometimes it will save your ass. (I don't want many of them, though, because having large amounts of spot removal does reduce its effectiveness. It's a safety net, nothing more.)

- Kor Haven is a mana-producing land which can also act as removal. You want as much removal as possible. Therefore, Kor Haven.

- Academy Ruins is a distinct possibility, but I went with another colored land instead. Up to you. With the amount of removal in the deck, recurring Explosives is less valuable.

- Only 22 lands, because the curve is fairly low and you draw lots of cards. This build doesn't rely on building up a large number of lands and then recurring Dragons and proclaiming huge Decrees, like other builds do. Nonetheless, this assumption might be mistaken, and would have to be tested.

- Thoughtseize and Duress in the sideboard are against combo decks and control decks. I don't know of other cards which are as good against both. (Maybe Meddling Mage, but I've never had much luck with that card.)

EDIT -- Actually, six slots is enough for 3+3 Counterbalance and Sensei's Divining Top. So that's another option. I really wanted to put some Tops maindeck, like, say, three, but 15 slots for drawing cards seemed excessive.

EDIT again -- Countertop also stops Loam and burn (see below). Who knew? So you could also go minus everything except Humility, plus 7-8 Countertop, and then 4-5 cards of your choice, likely Duress in my case.

- Extirpate is there to keep Loam decks from Wastelocking you. I don't know of another card which can do this as effectively. (Although, perhaps, Pithing Needle -- I will have to think on that.) If you can deny them their draw engine as well, that's merely a bonus, because Jace can usually outrun them either way. If you can keep out of Wastelock and counter things like Dreams or Assault, you'll have no trouble killing their handful of huge dudes and then them. Extirpate is not in here against Ichorid, because Ichorid hasn't been extremely popular lately. If you expect it, by all means sideboard some Relics or Crypts.

- Circle of Protection: Red is against burn. Ajani or Pulse are also options.

- Humility is against decks with creatures which do things, such as Goblins, Elves, and Survival.

[rsaunder]

I would expect that getting "Planeswalker Flooded" might be a problem for this deck. 6 is a lot, and, as you said the deck draws a lot of cards. I bet that you'll end up holding extra planeswalkers which turn into dead cards fairly regularly. Maybe a 3/2, 2/2, or 3/1 split?

[Illissius]

Why would extra Planeswalkers be dead cards? Granted, they suck if your opponent is dominating the board, but so does Standstill (as well as basically anything which isn't Balance or Wrath of God), yet most people play four. Jace at least cantrips in that situation and Elspeth stalls them. Multiple copies of Jace are just fine, because you can just remove the last counter from the first one and draw a card instead of adding two and both players drawing a card, and then play the second one and draw another card. Multiple copies of Elspeth are indeed useless if the first one lives, but with only two this shouldn't be a great concern. And I see no conflict between having one of each -- in fact, Elspeth gives you chump blockers while Jace supplies removal, so they help each other stick around.

[rsaunder]

Perhaps, I've gotten so used to keeping planeswalkers around almost indefinitely instead of killing them off. I suppose time and testing will tell.

[Illissius]

I've played Jace decks multiple times, so I can actually speak to this from experience; and I never minded drawing multiples, because every time I got to activate the -1 twice in one turn, it felt like cheating.

[KillemallCFH]

I've been playing Jace in Landstill for a while now and have always found him incredible. He does the same job as Standstill, but allows you to actually play spells, and instead of sucking in the mirror, is about the best card you can drop.

And yeah, multiple Jaces are amazing.

[Nihil Credo]

I'm intrigued by this design. Wouldn't it fit better in UGB rather than UWB, though? Garruk is far better than Elspeth, in my opinion. Plus a draw engine that lets you cast spells makes Tarmogoyf better (and, occasionally, a 7/8).

Doing a more-or-less straight swap we get this:

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Jace Beleren
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Diabolic Edict
3 Innocent Blood (questionable if you want Tarmogoyf. Maybe Ghastly Demise. Even in a Lackey-less meta you want some cheap stuff. Duh (http://magiccards.info/uh/en/52.html) would be so cool.)
2 Putrefy
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
2 Island
2 Swamp


I have a list that runs Stifle/Wasteland and Tombstalkers in addition to Garruk and Shriekmaw to maximize the "aggressive Landstill" approach - I liked it, but it sucks against Dreadstill and TA. This one looks like it could fix the issue.

[TeKo]

And yeah, multiple Jaces are amazing.
yay!1111


because every time I got to activate the -1 twice in one turn, it felt like cheating.
cause it was cheating?


If two or more planeswalkers that share a subtype are in play, they're all put into their owners' graveyards as a state-based effect.

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/TCG/Article.aspx?x=magic/planeswalkers/week4

[Nihil Credo]

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/TCG/Article.aspx?x=magic/planeswalkers/week4
Illissius meant activate a 1-counter Jace (killing it), then play another and immediately activate that one.

[Illissius]

Wouldn't it fit better in UGB rather than UWB, though?

Well, my thought process was from the direction of which colors give you the best spot removal, and that was clearly black and white (Swords is obvious, and Vindicate is also quite solid, unlike, in my opinion, Putrefy). Elspeth was the second to last card I decided upon; which win condition I ended up using was really not the focus. As for green, Deed is great, but it's at its best in a deck which relies on it to mop up the entire board, which is not this deck -- granted, Deed plus Jace is some nice synergy. And I explicitly didn't want to play Tarmogoyf (in the main deck), but that's partly due to my general perspective on Tarmogoyf in control decks, where it hasn't blown me away, and I know others have had different experiences. My very first experiment on this front was actually a deck which had Jace and Tarmogoyf to protect it, and most of the time what Tarmogoyf did was die, followed by Jace getting eaten by Factories or something. I've found that you either want to play lots of creatures or no creatures, and because I definitely want to play significant amounts of removal, which precludes the former, that leaves no creatures. (For the record, the other card I frequently considered for protecting Tarmogoyf with was Bitterblossom, which doesn't face quite the same difficulties.)

I think the best alternative to white might actually be more black. (Or, possibly, vice versa.) Maybe a small green splash for Deed, and then Goyf in the board for the decks he's good against -- small creature aggro and combo. (Which is more or less disjoint with the set of decks this one is aimed at, i.e. decks with small numbers of large creatures.)

EDIT -- 7/8 Tarmogoyfs were pretty cool. But it's more of a novelty than something of significant worth one should strive to obtain. Oh, and Bitterblossoms would give you 8/9 Tarmogoyfs. Awesome?

Another thing you could do is cut Standstills and Counterspells for Tops and Counterbalances, if you're of the view that Counterbalance is far and away the best card in the format and any deck which could play it and doesn't is worse because of it. (I think the best word for what I am about this is agnostic.) This does leave you dangerously low on the blue card count. I'm not sure if you would also want to cut Factories in this case, because they do at least block. (You could also, I guess, commit sacrilege against the Mana Gods by cutting Brainstorm instead of Standstill.) (If you cut Jace Beleren, that's not highly conducive to building a deck which maximally abuses Jace Beleren.)

[konsultant]

Have you taken a look at "TEC"? This list is getting to the point where it is incredibly similar to that deck. I know Nightmare was running it for quite awhile but he seems to have given up on the deck lately although I don't know his reasons. He was running the Goyfs and I agree that going more in the control route is probably a better call but perhaps there is some insight to be gained in looking through that thread.

[Illissius]

I remember that deck, but I don't remember it being too similar beyond both decks running Jace, and at one point, Standstills (sans manlands). TEC seems more like a precursor to ITF. This is just Landstill with Jace instead of Fact or whatever else, more spot removal instead of mass removal, and more spot removal instead of whatever other random stuff (Snares, Wishes, etc.). Though, of course, the angle of approach was different (let's build a deck to abuse Jace!), but that's where it ended up.

[konsultant]

Nightmare started out in the same boat from what I saw. He utilizes the Counter Top engine with an excessive amount of removal. He didn't run Elspeth, wasn't printed yet, but he ran Hoofprints and goyf as back up win conditions. He also opted for Meditate over Standstill due to Counterbalance partly because of the 3x mana slot and partially because he could get such a solid lock on the game once he stabalized, plus after actual tournament play Standstill turned out to be too much of a liability.

This seems like it is more a control deck that happens to have Factory and Standstill in it rather than an alternative version to Landstill. I've tried the simple switch of going from FoF to Jace and I agree that it isn't the best way to try and expoit Jace nor is it probably the best idea for current versions of Landstill. Your only strength that is playable with Standstill in play is the Factories, where Dreadstill go's for an aggresive combo style win this build seems to go more for a controling slower inevitable win through sheer card advantage. This is just my opinion but I wouldn't consider this or Dreadstill to actually be Landstill varients.

Jace is definetly just sitting there waiting for somebody to do something amazing with it but I honestly think Standstill would be more of a Liability than a boon for this deck. Yes if you are winning the game you can drop Standstill and reap the card advantage, hell i've even played against Goblins running Standstill before. The difference is that in Landstill if you play Standstill with the board clear or even sometimes with something small in play you can still expect to win under Standstill where your opponent cant. For example if you run into UW Landstill packing Decree your entire Standstill draw engine is cut off because you almost are never going to be able to safely play it. This is just my opinion but both TEC and ITF are solid control decks and they don't play Standstill for what appears to me as similar reasons that I wouldn't play it here.

[Illissius]

This seems like it is more a control deck that happens to have Factory and Standstill in it rather than an alternative version to Landstill.

You're entirely correct about this, of course. It's just that I didn't see how it was all that close to TEC, either, so in its current form it looked more like a Landstill variant to me, comparatively. I didn't get the same removal-centric (especially spot removal centric) and let's-abuse-Jace vibe from TEC, but I guess if you count Tarmogoyf as removal then it's closer.

I did wonder whether Standstill was the next best draw after Jace, but I figured it must be. After all, it's good in GBx Landstill, and they usually don't run Dragons or Decrees either, nor, often, many Wastelands or manlands besides Factories. But it's true that while Standstill is awesome in theory, it does turn to shit in practice against many of the actual decks in the metagame, so maybe something like Meditate (or even Fact) is worth a look. Or Top. The question, then, is what to do about the Factories. Keep running them? Why not? They do at least protect Jace from smaller guys, and chump for a turn against larger ones if necessary. (Not to mention turning opposing Standstills to shit in many cases.) Are there any lands besides Kor Haven which both produce mana and are worth a damn against large creatures (and don't cost infinite mana to activate, like that Azorius one)?

(Relatedly, if this is a control deck which happens to play Standstill but could just as easily not, should I start a new thread for it?)

[Concallesco]

http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/index.aspx?term=prevent&Field_Name=on&Field_Rules=on&Field_Type=on&setfilter=All%20sets&typefilter=Lands

There aren't, unless those threats happen to have shadow. The Kor Haven is actually a pretty brilliant find, considering that search. But I'd like to commend you on the build. It looks very interesting; I'm testing it out on MWS.

[konsultant]

You're entirely correct about this, of course. It's just that I didn't see how it was all that close to TEC, either, so in its current form it looked more like a Landstill variant to me, comparatively. I didn't get the same removal-centric (especially spot removal centric) and let's-abuse-Jace vibe from TEC, but I guess if you count Tarmogoyf as removal then it's closer.

I did wonder whether Standstill was the next best draw after Jace, but I figured it must be. After all, it's good in GBx Landstill, and they usually don't run Dragons or Decrees either, nor, often, many Wastelands or manlands besides Factories. But it's true that while Standstill is awesome in theory, it does turn to shit in practice against many of the actual decks in the metagame, so maybe something like Meditate (or even Fact) is worth a look. Or Top. The question, then, is what to do about the Factories. Keep running them? Why not? They do at least protect Jace from smaller guys, and chump for a turn against larger ones if necessary. (Not to mention turning opposing Standstills to shit in many cases.) Are there any lands besides Kor Haven which both produce mana and are worth a damn against large creatures (and don't cost infinite mana to activate, like that Azorius one)?

(Relatedly, if this is a control deck which happens to play Standstill but could just as easily not, should I start a new thread for it?)

I would definetly play the Factories, they are very solid in any control based and are invaluable against Goblins especially if you plan on trying to protect Plainswalkers. Wasteland is hit or miss, without Loam, Crucible or Standstill's it's hard to justify playing them unless you want to destroy opposing Factories. I would stick with the color choices giving you Vindicate whitch could substitute the Wastelands in most cases. I think the first and biggest question to ask is whether or not to run Counterbalance? If you are then you have the entire Legacy curve of 1-4 that you should be considering when making card choices. Perhaps a new thread based around a Jace control deck would yield you better results for deck ideas.

I don't know of any other lands that hinder creatures other than Maze of Ith or Tabernacle niether of whitch produce mana. Maze is incredible when paired with Wrath and Tabernacle could be good if paired with Crucible and Wastelands. A freind of mine ran a heavy land based deck with Mazes and Tabernacle that ran Crucible's and Exploration put into a control shell. He was running Belcher Severence as the primary win condition with Factories as his back up. He had alot of success with it and Jace seems like alot better win condition for that style deck than the Belcher combo was.

[thefreakaccident]

Does nobody run UWb anymore?

Comming back for a while, I wish to play that.

Here is the list I have sleeved up:

lands//23
4 mishra's factory
1 wasteland
1 tolaria west
4 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
4 tundra
1 scrubland
1 underground sea
3 island
2 plains

creatures//1
1 eternal dragon

spells//36
4 force of will
3 counterspell
2 spell snare

4 swords to plowshares
3 wrath of god
2 humility
3 engineered explosives
2 decree of justice

1 crucible of worlds
2 sensei's divining top
4 brainstorm
2 cunning wish
4 standstill


sideboard//
3 extirpate
4 meddling mage
1 dismantling blow
1 slaughter pact
1 enlightened tutor
2 pithing needle
3 runed halo

I know that Cwish is a little slow for the metagame, but my curve is slightly lower than the older lists, and it is decent utility for only two slots.

The sideboard is meh, but thatz b/c I don't know what my meta is anymore.

[Berzerked]

Seems fairly standard.

If you're going to run a singleton Wasteland, though, Dust Bowl is much better.

Also, I might drop a Wrath for Elspeth. Talk about an amazingly versatile wincon.

I don't play Top myself, though that seems to be a really player dependant choice. Instead I play another Spell Snare and an Academy Ruins, with a slightly different land configuration.

I also like to have Hydroblasts in the board, but obviously that's meta dependent.

[thefreakaccident]

The sensei's were originally a test slot, but they turned out pretty amazing for the deck, as it allows us to hit our landdrops always, helps w/ a crucible/fetch/dragon , and is good under SS.

I really like the addition.

You are right about dustbowl, I should try it.

I dunno about elseph, as I have never played him before... I will try him out though.

[Citrus-God]

Does nobody run UWb anymore?

Comming back for a while, I wish to play that.

Here is the list I have sleeved up:

lands//23
4 mishra's factory
1 wasteland
1 tolaria west
4 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
4 tundra
1 scrubland
1 underground sea
3 island
2 plains

creatures//1
1 eternal dragon

spells//36
4 force of will
3 counterspell
2 spell snare

4 swords to plowshares
3 wrath of god
2 humility
3 engineered explosives
2 decree of justice

1 crucible of worlds
2 sensei's divining top
4 brainstorm
2 cunning wish
4 standstill


sideboard//
3 extirpate
4 meddling mage
1 dismantling blow
1 slaughter pact
1 enlightened tutor
2 pithing needle
3 runed halo

I know that Cwish is a little slow for the metagame, but my curve is slightly lower than the older lists, and it is decent utility for only two slots.

The sideboard is meh, but thatz b/c I don't know what my meta is anymore.


From the maindeck

-1 Counterspell
-1 Humility

+1 Spell Snare
+1 Enlighten Tutor


SB:

-1 Slaughter Pact
-1 Dismantling Blow
-2 Pithing Needle
-4 Meddling Mage

+1 Return to Dust
+1 Sensei's Divining Top
+4 Counterbalance
+1 Circle of Protection: Red
+1 Tormod's Crypt


Counterbalance is amazing. I'm in the process of playing around with them; Goyfs in the maindeck or not, they're amazing regardless. Personally, I'd cut the Spell Snares in the maindeck for more 2cc cards.

[thefreakaccident]

So... made almost all those changes last second (couldn't get: dustbowl, the 3rd spellsnare, or return to dust)...


I played in my first local event in a long time tonight, getting first place, beating (i think in this order):

1. janky RG beatz
2. Reanimator
3. Countersliver
4. stasis (surprisingly good, as it beat both goblins, and 4c landstill, and tied w/ funkbrew b4 playing me for first).


I went 4-0 and got 20$ for my troubles.

I loved all of the newer additions (cb/top, and spell snare)... I think I may come back but am still unsure, as I am in the process of getting rid of almost all of my collection (sans my landstill deck).

[gustha]

Hi!
i've done some testing with my wish-less list (was discussed last month in this thread) and i felt really fine without wish (that is too slow for the present meta). Here's how my list looks like now:

UWb Landstill (Wishless) v1.0 by Luca Bozzato


// Lands
4 [U] Tundra
1 [A] Underground Sea
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [R] Scrubland
2 [UG] Plains
3 [UG] Island
1 [MM] Dust Bowl

// Creatures
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
4 [IA] Brainstorm
1 [SC] Decree of Justice
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
3 [A] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [TE] Humility
4 [OD] Standstill
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [LRW] Ponder
1 [IN] Fact or Fiction
1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
2 [A] Wrath of God
2 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [ALA] Elspeth Knight-Errant
1 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 3 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 1 [SHM] Runed Halo
SB: 1 [A] Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 1 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 1 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 1 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
SB: 1 [10E] Aura of Silence
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [DK] Tormod's Crypt

The sb is obv meta dependant, and the sensei's slot can be a o-ring for the occasion. I was really intrigued by the idea of inserting jace in this list, but there i've found some problems/hints.

1) where do I fit jace? ^^ In the list ilisius suggested, jace is another draw engine that substitutes fof or something other but not standstill. Could it be possible to totally eliminate standstill to make room for jace? especially for a deck that, like the one illisius posted, does not run decree. I'm now trying to run 4 still 2 jace (-1ponder-1fof), but i think it's possible to run 3 still 3 jace (completely changing still with jace would also de-value the power of etutor).

2) tolaria west is no more needed, but dust bowl/academy ruins are still tools we can't play without (oh, and jace works well under the recursion of ee/crypt). i could use this slot to improve tutor's toolbox, or some other stuff. it could be a:
-monovindicate
-3rd explo
-nevinyrral's disk
-3rd wrath
-monopithing needle (very useful g1 against lotta things)
-monoisochron scepter (snare, spell, swords)
-mono o-ring
-mono-runed halo

I don't really know which one is the best right now

3) My wincons are really many. jace is synergistic with elspeth and ajani (ithe only landstill i've been beaten by run 3 ajani 2 elspeth...ajani is really good with decree, but i run only 1 decree since my meta is full of landstill and i can't throw it out), really more than standstill.

4) there are interesting conflux card. path to exile is surely the first, and martial coup would have been interesting if it was an instant.

That's all for now, i'll wait for suggestions ^^

[Citrus-God]

1) where do I fit jace? ^^ In the list ilisius suggested, jace is another draw engine that substitutes fof or something other but not standstill. Could it be possible to totally eliminate standstill to make room for jace? especially for a deck that, like the one illisius posted, does not run decree. I'm now trying to run 4 still 2 jace (-1ponder-1fof), but i think it's possible to run 3 still 3 jace (completely changing still with jace would also de-value the power of etutor).

An option is to cut a Ponder for an FoF.


2) tolaria west is no more needed, but dust bowl/academy ruins are still tools we can't play without (oh, and jace works well under the recursion of ee/crypt). i could use this slot to improve tutor's toolbox, or some other stuff. it could be a:
-monovindicate
-3rd explo
-nevinyrral's disk
-3rd wrath
-monopithing needle (very useful g1 against lotta things)
-monoisochron scepter (snare, spell, swords)
-mono o-ring
-mono-runed halo

I don't really know which one is the best right now

Run a 3rd EE. EEs are really good.


3) My wincons are really many. jace is synergistic with elspeth and ajani (ithe only landstill i've been beaten by run 3 ajani 2 elspeth...ajani is really good with decree, but i run only 1 decree since my meta is full of landstill and i can't throw it out), really more than standstill.

Landstill mirrors are the reason why you should be running 2-3 DoJs. Not to mention DoJ gets around counters. Also, DoJs help win so many mirrors, it's absurd.


4) there are interesting conflux card. path to exile is surely the first, and martial coup would have been interesting if it was an instant.

It's probably a bad card to run in this sort of deck. Giving the opponent card advantage as well as a tempo boost isnt what you want to see. I especially dont want to be casting this card against an aggro deck like Vial Goblins.

[gustha]

1) nor ponder nor fof do satisfy me
2) 3rd EE is surely good, i run 3ee till last year. With tolaria gone, it's surely a good thing to do. Also needle is never a dead card.
3) elspeth replaces doj, that's too slow for my tastes. 2 doj are good if paired with 2-3 ajani. the slot of tolaria can be the 2nd doj, but it does not satisfy me, especially since planeswalkers are a better wincon (and EE@0 resolves others' doj). This morning i chose hoofsprint of the stag as the filler for tolaria slot. it's synergistic with lotta things.
4) path to exile didn't excite me too...i'm not telling it's a f**king good card for landstill, only that we might have some thoughts about it. doubts on martial coup already expressed. ^^

[Irish_Mafia]

Hey guys I'm looking to play landstill but just UW. Is it still viable?\

// Lands
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [10E] Island (3)
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
3 [4E] Plains (1)
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [U] Scrubland
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
4 [A] Tundra

// Creatures
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
4 [CST] Brainstorm
3 [IA] Counterspell
1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
3 [SC] Decree of Justice
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [TE] Humility
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [OV] Swords to Plowshares
3 [8E] Wrath of God

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
SB: 3 [R] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [SHM] Runed Halo

Its more of a brainstorm, I haven't tested it and would like your input if you have it. Thanks

[konsultant]

Hey guys I'm looking to play landstill but just UW. Is it still viable?\

// Lands
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [10E] Island (3)
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
3 [4E] Plains (1)
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [U] Scrubland
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
4 [A] Tundra

// Creatures
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
4 [CST] Brainstorm
3 [IA] Counterspell
1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
3 [SC] Decree of Justice
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [TE] Humility
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [OV] Swords to Plowshares
3 [8E] Wrath of God

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
SB: 3 [R] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [SHM] Runed Halo

Its more of a brainstorm, I haven't tested it and would like your input if you have it. Thanks

Engineered Explosive's can be fairly weak with only 2 colors but outside of that the deck looks viable. My list is primarily Blue/White with Black only for MD Vindicates and Plague in the SB. Without a 3rd Color I'd probably run some kind of Disenchant effect, Probably Dismantaling Blow in the SB. I see the 1x Scrubland so you may be able to get away with the EE but it seems abit risky to me. Perhaps add a Trop or something just to give you access to more reliable use from Explosives.

[rsaunder]

I loved running UW landstill with one MB trop to up the usefulness of EE. The manabase is beautifully stable (I only ever got screwed a few times, and they were fluke-y draws), and crucible is just broken in this format. Runed Halo from the board is also as amazing as one might think. I don't know if I'd run elspeths, though; Decree and E. Dragon are such good kill conditions. A couple of thoughts: if you rely on humility over wrath of god, you become very vulnerable to aggro decks running Kgrip post board, so I'd suggest no less than 3 Wrath effects with maybe one or two humility. Fact or fiction is amazing as well; the more you can do on your opponent's end step the better.

Tell me how you like spell snare in that build, I never got a chance to test it out.

Also, what do y'all think of the new swords? This deck seems like the sort that could really make use of 8 STP's, especially against Team America which plays 0 basics.

[konsultant]

Tell me how you like spell snare in that build, I never got a chance to test it out.

Also, what do y'all think of the new swords? This deck seems like the sort that could really make use of 8 STP's, especially against Team America which plays 0 basics.

I'm a pretty big fan of Spell Snare, it's a solid card against the majority of decks that give you trouble and the slower decks where it isn't as relevent are usually in your favor already.

The only real problem with the new swords is that STP is better for Landstill and it doesn't deal with Goose. I could see running 1-2 copies in builds that don't run Black or possably running it as a Wish target. Running any more than that would just make Goose worse for Landstill. The tempo disadvantage of the card can be a very big drawback, for instance using it on a turn one Lackey against Goblins while still getting rid of Lackey is good the extra Mana excell you give them is a pretty big drawback.

[Irish_Mafia]

I loved running UW landstill with one MB trop to up the usefulness of EE. The manabase is beautifully stable (I only ever got screwed a few times, and they were fluke-y draws), and crucible is just broken in this format. Runed Halo from the board is also as amazing as one might think. I don't know if I'd run elspeths, though; Decree and E. Dragon are such good kill conditions. A couple of thoughts: if you rely on humility over wrath of god, you become very vulnerable to aggro decks running Kgrip post board, so I'd suggest no less than 3 Wrath effects with maybe one or two humility. Fact or fiction is amazing as well; the more you can do on your opponent's end step the better.

Tell me how you like spell snare in that build, I never got a chance to test it out.

Also, what do y'all think of the new swords? This deck seems like the sort that could really make use of 8 STP's, especially against Team America which plays 0 basics.

What would you run in the 2 elspeth slots? I have 3 wrath effects. I might put FoF in those slots. Idk tho. And I will throw in a trop to then.

[mossivo1986]

Without posting anything too techy for anyone the basic layout for wrath is

with wish
x2 wrath
x1 humility

without
x3 wrath

:) simple sweet and fun.

Elspeth demands in landstill bare minimum 1 slot. Almost all the current builds run 2. Any less or any more is very debatable and good luck winning games as consistently and easily.

So far in testing with the current list I run uwb_wish_still in a group of 30 mws testers for gp chicago, im x-2. Testing against ugr dreadstill uw dreadstill mono blue control eva green gobbos ichorid, tes, and aggro loam. I haven't tested the mirror, but I know its a positive matchup.

So bottom line for anyone doubting wish. Most of my testing has been done post board so wish is still good after boarding, and it doesn't mess up your board like some people say. Bottom line if you dont run it you dont have the advantage and you sacrifice your aggro loam, ichorid, and anything using a graveyard or thrash type of deck around. Its simply rediculous to think that vindicate is actually better "rather then effecient" then wish.

[Irish_Mafia]

Without posting anything too techy for anyone the basic layout for wrath is

with wish
x2 wrath
x1 humility

without
x3 wrath

:) simple sweet and fun.

Elspeth demands in landstill bare minimum 1 slot. Almost all the current builds run 2. Any less or any more is very debatable and good luck winning games as consistently and easily.

So far in testing with the current list I run uwb_wish_still in a group of 30 mws testers for gp chicago, im x-2. Testing against ugr dreadstill uw dreadstill mono blue control eva green gobbos ichorid, tes, and aggro loam. I haven't tested the mirror, but I know its a positive matchup.

So bottom line for anyone doubting wish. Most of my testing has been done post board so wish is still good after boarding, and it doesn't mess up your board like some people say. Bottom line if you dont run it you dont have the advantage and you sacrifice your aggro loam, ichorid, and anything using a graveyard or thrash type of deck around. Its simply rediculous to think that vindicate is actually better "rather then effecient" then wish.

Post you list please?

[mossivo1986]

Post you list please?

When GP chicago rolls around you'll see it :)

[Shawn]

Bottom line if you dont run it you dont have the advantage and you sacrifice your aggro loam, ichorid, and anything using a graveyard or thrash type of deck around.

I have to disagree with Wish being key against thrash and ichorid. Against Ichorid pre-sideboard, they usually kill you before the deck reaches four mana to Wish+Extirpate, or they have annihilated your hand with Therapies and Unmask. Plus, one Extirpate isn't going to stop them with the variety of threats they have.

I haven't found Wish that exciting against tempo thresh over Vindicate, but Vindicate is mediocre in that matchup, too. The times I cast Wish into Extirpate I was already ahead, and it had no impact on the game. When I was even or behind I always would go for Wish into Enlightened Tutor or Pulse.

[konsultant]

Extirpate isn't need for Loam or Thrash and honestly i'd rather have Leyline or Crypt for Ichorid than Extirpate. Personally I have given up on Ichorid due to how many board slots it takes to increase my win percentages enough to be relevent in a match where I almost don't bother to play game 1. Ajani and Mage should be more than enough to beat Loam and are relevent in numerous other match ups. I don't know your exact list but Thrash should be a good match up with or without any SB options.

Vindicate is incredibly versatile as is Wish but Vindicate is considerably less of an investment than Wish and is a solid card against pretty much every deck I can think of outside of Ichorid. Wish with the appropriate board is an amazing card but it detracts from your SB capabilities whitch can limit your ability to board into a very redundent inevitable win against certain decks. Wish increases your potential in game one but doesn't offer as much for games 2 and 3. If they were to ban LED and Top I would drop the Vindicate's for Wish in a heartbeat. Until that happens imho Vindicate has more to offer against the whole field as far as increasing your win percentage's in match ups across the whole of Legacy.

[konsultant]

So I played the newest list I have been working on yesterday at the Mox Emerald event in Hadley with some great success. I went 7-0-2 with 2 intentional draws after going 4-0 in the swiss. I went 14-1 in games for the day.

The list of the day:

3x Brainstorm [not a mistake]
4x Standstill
2x Fact or Fiction
4x Force of Will
3x Counterspell
3x Spellsnare [I cut the 4th Brainstorm for the 3rd Spellsnare, MVP!!!!!]

4x STP
3x Wrath
3x Decree of Justice
2x Eternal Dragon

3x Vindicate

3x EE

4x Tundra
1x Underground Sea
1x Scrubland
2x Island
2x Plains
1x Swamp
3x Flooded Strand
3x Polluted Delta
3x Mishra's Factory
3x Wasteland

SB:
3x Runed Halo
4x Meddling Mage
2x Ajani Goldmane
2x Chainer's Edict [Fuck you Mongoose]
4x Engineered Plague

Deck did everything I wanted it to, the Ichorid match is horrible but it's possable to win with some luck. Outside of that the deck beats everything else pretty good. The missing Brainstorm was irrelevent as it is my primary pitch card to FOW anyway and the Spellsnares were amazing along with the Vindicates.

Round one vs Survival:
Kept Survival out of play both games and rode Dragons for the wins.

Round two vs Red Thresh:
LOL I love playing against Thresh with this build, it's about 95% in my favor. I killed everything he played and rode out soldier tokens for both wins.

Round three vs Sliver Survival with Vial:
Kept Vial out of play and he never drew Survival, Board in 4x E plague and 2x Edicts. Anything running creatures has an horrible match against this deck.

Round four vs Survival [Jaynel]:
Went Land Destruction against him with Vindicates and Wastelands for my wins game one and three. I kept a hand of Waste/Factory and Dragon game 2, his Thoughtsieze on Dragon turn one took me out of it and he went nuts with me having nothing to stop him.

ID rounds 5 and 6

Top 8 vs MUC:
Game one we go back and forth for along time but I eventually cycle a decree for ten tokens that he doesn't have an answer for. Game two he mulls to 5 on the play, I kept a subpar hand but I dropped a Mage on Shackles and rode him for the win.

Top 4 vs Jaynel again.
Game one takes forever but I swing for lethal damage with angel tokens when I have zero cards left in my Library and nothing but 3x Standstills in my hand. He made a couple mistakes that may have allowed me to win. Game two, have I mentioned how good LD is against Survival? He starts off with a fetch and Thoughtsieze. I respond on my turn with a Wasteland. We both kept low Mana Hands but I had a pair of Factories that I decide to go aggresive with on turn two and I take a really quick win.

Finals vs ANT:
Game one he either miscounts or just didn't count but he goes off and was one Storm shy of killing me due to his Pact of Negation on his own Dark Ritual. Game 2 I open 5x Counters and 2x Land, he does nothing early and rip into a Mage on Ad Nauseum and a Halo on Tendrils. He tried to do some stuff but couldn't deal with all the hate I had.

[rockout]

Dang Konsultant's Finish was more impressive than mine. I top 8ed at Hadley going 4-0-2 in swiss and losing to Jaynel GBrw Survival.

My decklist:

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [UNH] Plains
2 [UNH] Island
3 [B] Tundra
2 [B] Underground Sea
1 [B] Scrubland
3 [JGC] Mishra's Factory
3 [REW] Wasteland
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins

// Creatures
1 [PR] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [REW] Wrath of God
2 [ALA] Elspeth Knight-Errant - I still get laughed at for playing this card, but it gets there even against combo, read match write up.
1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds - MVP
2 [IN] Fact or Fiction - lawl give me four cards lawl
3 [JGC] Counterspell - Solid as always
2 [DIS] Spell Snare - As Geoff said MVP
3 [AP] Vindicate - Good everytime I saw it no lie.

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
SB: 3 [JGC] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [SHM] Runed Halo - Amazing all the time
SB: 2 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
SB: 3 [FNM] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus - Worthless

Round 1: Mighty Quinn Joseph B. 1-1-1
Game 1: I win by drawing all my counters and Elspeth.
Game 2: I have lethal on the board next turn holding double force, stp, and wrath with 5 mana untapped an he cats abeyance with 2 cards in hand. I'm thinking there is no way he can kill me this turn and I let the abeyance resolved and lost to painter + grindstone.
Game 3: I rip vindicate to stop him from swinging for lethal in turn 5 of extended time.

Round 2: Ur Dreadstill Matt Leblanc 2-0
Game 1: Turn 2 standstill with waste for his factory and two factory of my own. He gets stuck on 2 mana.
Game 2: Runed halo on dreadstill and Elspeth beats. Again he gets stuck on a few lands.

Round 3: F2K9 (Amazing deck) Tariq White (sp?) 1-1-1
I wish I saw crucible in this match for recurring wasteland on all his pretty non-basics.
Game 1: An epic 30+ min match that I win by tapping out to put Angels into play against his eternal dragon.
Game 2: He beats me with Tombstalker with 5 minutes left and I have no cards in hand.

Round 4: Boros Deck Wins w/ Scepter 2-0
Game 1: Mull to 5 with force, stp, snare, fetch counterspell. I keep he goes for turn 2 scepter that I snare and proceed to rip two lands off the top and a crucible to stabilize. Elspeth gets there with lots of little soldiers running around.
Game 2: I mull to 5 again with garbage. Luckily he has a slow start and I am able to stabilize behind crucible and rune halo on golbin legionaire and 2/2 haste flyer for 1RW. I swords my pumped mishra's factory off Elspeth to get out of burn range.

Round 5: Jesse UW Landstill mmmm DA MIRROR 1-0
Game 1: Epic Epic Match: I start with turn 2 standstill which gets snared and He plays a standstill on his following turn. I rip factory and beat. Lots of lands and recurring ee off academy ruins tries to solve the problem of counterbalance. Decree for 6 brings him to 7 that gets wrathed away. He decrees for 6 and I ee them away. I push through an Elspeth by forcing him to draw his 4 drop off the top of counterbalance with standstill. Many turns later I set off Elspeth's Ultimate. At one point I get rid of his crucible and he goes to ruins it back to the top but I had my academy ruins in play for 20+ turns and he only had his out for 2 turns. We just called it shit luck and sent both to the graveyard. He has 3 cards left in the deck and he rips his last out in decree of justice for 3x Angels. I have a token and elspeth and he's at 1 me 4. I up tap and rip ee to kill all his dudes (mine being indestrucible.)
Game 2: He leads with mishra and beats. I vindicate it. Drop Elspeth but time runs out.

Round 6: Bryant Cook TES 2-1
Game 1: I have double force, double brainstorm, snare, tundra, colorless source. A few turns in he chants me, I force, he goes off I force a lion's eye diamond and he plays another and tendrils me.
Game 2: I drop Mage naming tendrils turn 2 on the play. He combos and duress' a EE out of my hand. He burning wishes and He says, "what do I go for?" I say diminishing returns, he ETWs for 20 tokens. Me being at 19 life with a single block isn't going to cut it. I rip EE off the top like a champ and we go to game 3.
Game 2: He has a slow start and I drop Standstill with 5 mana, double force, double cs, snare, bs, bs. I fof at his end step nexting him 3 cards, which I get laughed at for, and he pyroblast my fof and I proceed to drop mage naming wish. I cs two ad nauseams and I go to beats. He casts shusher as a blocker at 5 life. I drop Elspeth and fly in for 5. "I'm going to lose to that awful card?"

Top 8:
Jaynel GBrw Survival: 2-0
I lose for the third time in a top 8 to survival. Relic is god awful.

Slops:
Mass & CT drivers not knowing how to drive in the snow
Scrubbing in the top 8 of another tournament.
Team Awesome not showing up in force.
Getting laughed at during the TES match - You never want to give the TES player three cards...?

Props:
Calzones at Primo Pizzeria near Hadley
Making top 8
Ripping cards all day thanks to my foil Riddle of Lightning
Kevin for getting married and holding a great tournament
Vindicate and Spell Snare being good enough to get there
Geoff for allowing me to steal his list ... sort of

[mossivo1986]

Dang Konsultant's Finish was more impressive than mine. I top 8ed at Hadley going 4-0-2 in swiss and losing to Jaynel GBrw Survival.
[Really long quote deleted - Bardo.]

Funny my testing of relic against survival has been amazing. Im going to look up the survival list. I just don't see how you loose when you have it. Other then that nice finish. You did well buddy. Now get back to GP TESTING!!!

[gustha]

I always follow the debates on landstill on the source, but in these days they're a little bit confusing 'cause there are so many interesting approaches to test. I'm still testing the list with e-tutor replacing c-wish, and I really find that something's missing, especially the disenchant effect. I really feel that vindicate's the card I want in my list, but i don't know where to fit it. Also, i've never used it and I think I'll need little indications about how it works (this may seem a noob question, but vindicate it's not in my playing mentality, I can do nothing 'bout that :laugh: ). I'm testing too the effect of the "planeswalker flood", as someone stated here, especially since here in italy people using landstill also run at least 2 PW. Vindicate it's a sorcery, still it is a more versatile card that c-wish.

This is the list i'm playing now:
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
1 [A] Underground Sea
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [R] Scrubland
3 [UG] Plains
3 [UG] Island
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
4 [A] Tundra
1 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
3 [LRW] Jace Beleren
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant

// Spells
4 [IA] Brainstorm
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
3 [A] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [TE] Humility
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
2 [A] Wrath of God
2 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [OD] Standstill
1 [U] Nevinyrral's Disk

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 3 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 1 [SHM] Runed Halo
SB: 1 [A] Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 1 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 1 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 1 [10E] Aura of Silence
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [OD] Aegis of Honor

Now I read those posts and i'm a bit confused:

1) where's humility gone?!? why it's no more in landstill?
2) the role of e-tutor is dim with vindicate?
3) 2 ajani: they're good with decree and elspeth. they're good against loam (while jace is not so good), and they're good with burn. are 2 fair enough to stopo burn? (e tutor+cop red+aegis of honor really shines here)
4) in a meta full of landstill and 3sh, is 3 mishra+3 wasteland good? (only 3 mishra?)
5) what fo you side for halo and in what MU? i've always used it only against combo (again: tutor+canonist+halo/mage really is worthless)
6) how's changed the MU against stompy?
7) 3 eng plague are of course too much for my meta, but that's not a problem of the list ^^
8) I need crucible

So, fusing all the positive inputs I got from this thread, I suggest a list as a draft:

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [B] Tundra
3 [TE] Wasteland
1 [R] Underground Sea
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [TSP] Swamp (1)
2 [MM] Plains (3)
2 [APL] Island (2)
1 [R] Scrubland

// Creatures
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
3 [LRW] Jace Beleren
3 [OD] Standstill
4 [MM] Brainstorm
2 [R] Wrath of God
3 [AP] Vindicate
4 [A] Swords to Plowshares
1 [A] Nevinyrral's Disk
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [A] Counterspell

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
SB: 3 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [SHM] Runed Halo

With jace providing a good draw engine paired with Standstill. The 3rd EE becomes a disk (mass destruction, and is also indestructible if the 3rd ability of elspeth resolves, since it's destruction is not a part of the cost of its ability but happens when the ability resolves). The side is just a draft: 3 ajani replace jace against burn-aggro loam. I think it's ok also against goblin-slivers. plague for decks like gobbo etc. tormod+relic for loam/icho. mage for burn icho combo. halo is a big question mark.

[rockout]

Humility is still amazing. Hands down it shuts off Survival, Goblins, Dstompy, and other creature decks, but being proactive with vindicate and being a little more aggressive allows matches to finish faster and clear their answers instead of all those creatures sitting on the board hiding under an enchantment. I'm still in the process of testing Humility and Vindicate.

Your list looks just fine. I like FoF instead of Jace but it boils down to preference. FoFing in response to a key spell that could break the game and you flip Force and four other cards, your opponent will usually go force and 4 cards netting you three cards and you force their spell anyway. I had it happen at least twice in my matches this past Saturday. One was force and 4 cards and one was stp and cs, snare, wrath, land. Ofcourse, I'll take the 4 cards 99.9% of the time. Like I said, personal preference.

Also, Rune Halo is so versatile in the side board. What match can't you board it in against? Combo? Tendrils, Chant. Survival? Goyf, Therapy, Duress. Goblins? Piledriver, Siege-Gang. Dreadstill? Dreadnaught, factory. Thresh? ... You get the point. You dont have to bring it in, but it tends to make my life a little easier in some of my tougher matches.

[MikeyFlowers]

I was Konsultant's round two opponent at Off the Wall yesterday and granted I'm a new player but he totally rolled me. I was running UGr Threshold without Top/Counterbalance or Stifle and didn't stand a chance.

If you're going to be playing Threshold against Konsultant Stifle would need to be in your deck... about 15 times. He uses the plainscycling/buyback of his Eternal Dragons to build up a huge manabase while you are locked under Standstill and Decree of Justice with counter support completely wasted me. Once you are locked under his Standstill let's say you draw your counter support and then try to land a creature, he pretty much always Standstill draws into his own counter support or creature hate (if he wasn't holding them already) and that's it. I got Goyfs and Magus of the Moon into play only to have them STP'd with counter backup instantly. With the build I had there was very little I could do against his deck. He was a cool guy though and even helped me to understand some of the rules better.

[gustha]

Moon thresh is not a horrible MU for landstill, my list (not the vindicate-one) run 6 basics and gets out of the reach of B2B, moon effects etc. even without dragon. And believe me, when he started recurring dragon, he had already won :smile:

Coming back to the original discussion. Yeah, fof is good to do in response to stgh., but jace is a constant draw engine (and works as a finisher as well, in some cases when you have the total control of the situation). And it works very well with e-tutor, since you can use it in your MP and then activate jace (and with SDT is amazingly good!).


Also, Rune Halo is so versatile in the side board. What match can't you board it in against? Combo? Tendrils, Chant. Survival? Goyf, Therapy, Duress. Goblins? Piledriver, Siege-Gang. Dreadstill? Dreadnaught, factory. Thresh? ... You get the point. You dont have to bring it in, but it tends to make my life a little easier in some of my tougher matches.

What are they? I really don't know what to side out against dreadstill to put halo in, especially since Vindicate is already working good on dreadnought and stp with goyf. And with gobbo it's the same (maybe jace's not working good and can be sided out, but for plague).


Humility is still amazing. Hands down it shuts off Survival, Goblins, Dstompy, and other creature decks, but being proactive with vindicate and being a little more aggressive allows matches to finish faster and clear their answers instead of all those creatures sitting on the board hiding under an enchantment. I'm still in the process of testing Humility and Vindicate.
I really can't find 2 slots to fit humility in. maybe could be a good sb card in 2x. (-1 halo -1 ajani?). I don't know, and I find halo/humility a little in contrast. The pros of this list with vindicate are...well, vindicate! the list seems more similar to the list I played two years ago, more solid, every card in 2-3x, even the sb. And jace seems a good addition to that old list, speeding up the deck really better that FoF, imho. It feels pretty stronger than the my current UWb, that's like a sieves...look at the side! The cons is that, without e-tutor, i feel a little "naked": it gives me what I want right when I want it (the god of topdeck doesn't protect me, you know...).And, without e-tutor, i hardly see a place for a singleton humility (and my list already has 61 card).
Well, i'm a little bit tired, I'll sleep on it...

[Irish_Mafia]

I really can't find 2 slots to fit humility in. maybe could be a good sb card in 2x. (-1 halo -1 ajani?). I don't know, and I find halo/humility a little in contrast. The pros of this list with vindicate are...well, vindicate! the list seems more similar to the list I played two years ago, more solid, every card in 2-3x, even the sb. And jace seems a good addition to that old list, speeding up the deck really better that FoF, imho. It feels pretty stronger than the my current UWb, that's like a sieves...look at the side! The cons is that, without e-tutor, i feel a little "naked": it gives me what I want right when I want it (the god of topdeck doesn't protect me, you know...).And, without e-tutor, i hardly see a place for a singleton humility (and my list already has 61 card).
Well, i'm a little bit tired, I'll sleep on it...

I play 2 humility MB, it is redic. against any deck with creatures. It makes you elspeth tokens, Mishra's Factory, Decree tokens all superior to any one else. It should be MB imo.

[mossivo1986]

With runed halo against dreadstill depending upon color configuration obv and gamestate you name:

#1 Naught. He's really the only way you truly lose in this matchup outside of horrible circumstances.

#2 mishra's factory. Their second avalible option, you can randomly get landstill'd by mishra's factorys under their own standstill while they use their wastelands a ability speed strip mines for yours on their turn. Though I've never been beaten like this it can happen.

#3 Tarmogoyf. Although this guy rarely ever gets this its still important to save your spells and runed on goyf is a solid play to make because you save your stps for naught and or mishra's.

Obviously there are different versions everywhere with this deck and alot of new threats are popping up. I've even heard of a version running u/b/g with tombstalker/ naught/ goyf. just wow, that would be fun to play answer or die type of magic that early.

[gustha]

I delayed my sleep a little bit... The fact is, I can't really undesrtand why boarding in 3 halo (siding out what?!? against dreadstill we can go without sb) while a single card, humilty, does a lot better and shuts down all creatures. @irishmafia: as you see, i run 1 MD, but only because there's e-tutor. The fact is that a list like this simply diminishes the power of humility. If we can get our hands on removals, there's no need of humility. We have
4 stp
3 vindicate
2/3 wrath
2/3 EE
0/1 Disk

For a total of 11/14 removal, 7 spot and 4/7 mass, 2/4 of which are recurrable with ruins. The only thing that rocks are tstalker and mishra, goyf and nought are easy to play around (EE would do for both). Humility is a good card, but it's not that good in a aggrocontrol meta, where we want fast answers and not silver bullets. I mean, i would have liked to play hoofsprint of the stag in UWb "tutor"-still, but i chose not to run it because of humility. It forces you to make choices to play around your own cards. Obv it shuts up every aggro (read: every aggro that does not run krosan grip). But (taking a look back at rockout being laughed for playing elspeth) it's not the bomb it was before the printing of elspeth. Elspeth is a better card because it's a wincon that doesn't require all the backup that humility requires. And, elspeth is also good because it makes the deck less dependent on humility: the card elspeth NEEDS to work is not humilty, but wrath of god. Humility could be a good 1x, easily tutorable when you need it, but many times i found myself putting it back on the top with brainstorm and fetch to shuffle it away. Of course, it shines against goblins, survival, slivers. But survival can be won with relic, the other two with plague. It's become a utility for our game plan, and is no more the necessary condition of our victory, as it was before time spiral/lorwyn. And I don't think that we need a singleton humility in this list, it will not suit imho.

@mossivo: what would you side out for 3 halo in the dreadstill MU? I don't really get it... maybe I of that could be a humility...

[Irish_Mafia]

@ Gustha If you notice my list i don't play black for vindicate (due to not having them or the black lands) so for right now i like humility.

[i_need_the_extra_turns]

So I played the newest list I have been working on yesterday at the Mox Emerald event in Hadley with some great success. I went 7-0-2 with 2 intentional draws after going 4-0 in the swiss. I went 14-1 in games for the day.

The list of the day:

3x Brainstorm [not a mistake]
4x Standstill
2x Fact or Fiction
4x Force of Will
3x Counterspell
3x Spellsnare [I cut the 4th Brainstorm for the 3rd Spellsnare, MVP!!!!!]

4x STP
3x Wrath
3x Decree of Justice
2x Eternal Dragon

3x Vindicate

3x EE

4x Tundra
1x Underground Sea
1x Scrubland
2x Island
2x Plains
1x Swamp
3x Flooded Strand
3x Polluted Delta
3x Mishra's Factory
3x Wasteland

SB:
3x Runed Halo
4x Meddling Mage
2x Ajani Goldmane
2x Chainer's Edict [Fuck you Mongoose]
4x Engineered Plague


Sorry konsultant, but I dont like your list - i rather think its awful.

First the manabase:
I would cut the swamp, it makes nothing.
Then u play 3 wasteland and no crucible (???). Are u playing a fast aggro deck, which can achieve a tempo advantage after wasting a opp' land and finish quickly?
Sure u can play vindicates but u just need the crucible for the lock.
Cut the wasteland's for one dustbowl and add the crucible not only for the lock - it helps u to ensure your landdrops and the CoW is often mvp in many matchups (tempo thresh ugr or ugb, team america).

Vindicate is absolutely awful in landstill. It cost 3 mana is a sorcery, it trades only 1for1 and before I forget it: its a sorcery and landstill wants to play at instant speed or when it plays something at sorcery speed it wants to totally smack the opponent.
U have already the explosives for stuff like that and the explosives is such versatile - it can blow away multiple targets...tokens etc.
I warmly recommand to play the 4th EE when u want to handle more artifacts or stuff.

Where is the humility? It is just too good. U HAVE to play two.

Well, I also suggest to play one or two elspeth - u can cut a decree and/or a E-dragon.

Where is the cunning wish? Also the wish can help u to handle stuff etc. and wish-> pulse or wish->extirpate is often MVP in matchups like burn, goyf slugh or loam.
The wish is also superior to the enlightened tutor. I just dont get it why people try the e.-tutor again. The enlightened tutor is card disadvantage - ok it can get u standstill which would negate this but the wish is the key card in some matchups as I mentioned above and it does the same as the enlightened tutor because u play the enlightened tutor in your sideboard. U can still play wish->enlightened tutor->humility for example.

This is all a regress in the development of landstill.
In todays meta I would try a single sensei to add consistency to your list.

[rockout]

@ i need the extra turns

Its a horrible list. Thats why he top 8'd.

That's why he won at Hadley against a great pool of players. Speaks volumes for the deck. I top 8ed the same tournament playing a similar build and vindicate was the cat's meow all day.

[i_need_the_extra_turns]

That's why he won at Hadley against a great pool of players. Speaks volumes for the deck. I top 8ed the same tournament playing a similar build and vindicate was the cat's meow all day.

Well, maybe he is a very good player :wink: .
I dont want to say that the deck is bad, landstill is still such a strong deck and many people underrate the power of standstill. But konsultant's list is not a very good landstill list. U can read the arguments above. It would take me 5 minutes brainstorming to post a list, that is in my opinion much stronger.

And that vindicate was a good choice/card in some situations for you does not mean that another build would have problems in those situations.

[electrolyze]

@Konsultant, I actually like your list:laugh:, and sunday I have a big tournament and i'm probably going to play landstill but it will my first tourney with that deck(even the first time i'm going to play landstill irl).

This is how my meta probably looks like:

dreadstill, team america, eva green, tes, goblins and loam decks will show up the most and beside that some random stuff.

Is that list good for my meta, because I really like to play vindicates in ls:wink: Or is that list special tuned for your meta?



greets, Electrolyze:cool:


ps. Congratz on your finish

[Citrus-God]

As I havent gotten to play with it is espeth a real game changer? Dif and I were talking about it in theory but I have not been able to play one as of yet.

It's good if you run Humilities. Play those, stall, land a Humility and make everything indestructible eventually. Elspeth is an amazing card, but the problem I personally have with her is the fact she costs 27 bucks.

[rockout]

It's good if you run Humilities. Play those, stall, land a Humility and make everything indestructible eventually. Elspeth is an amazing card, but the problem I personally have with her is the fact she costs 27 bucks.

Crack them in boosters by winning a draft the day before the tournament where Elspeth and legal and go to town like this guy.

[3duece]

Martial Coup - XWW
Sorcery (R)
Put X 1/1 white Soldier creature tokens into play. If X is 5 or greater, destroy all other creatures.

Anyone seen this? I know its no decree or elspeth but it seems strong, specifically with the wrath ability, under humility or not. I don't know, not bad as a one or two of. Thoughts?

[rockout]

Martial Coup - XWW
Sorcery (R)
Put X 1/1 white Soldier creature tokens into play. If X is 5 or greater, destroy all other creatures.

Anyone seen this? I know its no decree or elspeth but it seems strong, specifically with the wrath ability, under humility or not. I don't know, not bad as a one or two of. Thoughts?

I definitely think it's good, but it's nothing like instant, uncounterable soldiers in your face like decree.

[Misplayer]

I have a couple of questions about UWb Landstill, specifically the inclusion of Brainstorm. I'm not a big Landstill player so you'll have to bear with me. In lists like konsultant's, is it there mostly to keep the blue card count high enough to run Force of Will? I understand it's one of the most powerful cards in the format, but it seems like an E. Tutor package would be more synergistic with the deck and would allow for the inclusion of powerful 1-ofs such as Crucible or Humility (neither of which are apparently necessary, although rockout seemed to like his crucible). However, that cuts the non-Force blue card count down to 12 which seems way too low, and then you're pitching much more powerful cards like FoF/Standstill (cards that provide actual card advantage) or other counterspells. This combined with E. Tutor providing card disadvantage and I can see why Brainstorm gets a spot in the deck. If I'm way off in my assumption please let me know.

Secondly, on (non-Factory) win conditions, konsultant's list with 3x Decree and 2x Dragon and rockout's list with 2x Elspeth, 2x Decree and 1x Dragon both seem like a lot when this deck runs such powerful draw spells and doesn't need to see a win-con until the mid to late game. Are 4+ win-cons necessary to prevent massive amounts of drawn rounds? I apologize if this is the stuff you learn in Landstill kindergarten, but again, I'm not as familiar with the deck.

[Citrus-God]

I have a couple of questions about UWb Landstill, specifically the inclusion of Brainstorm. I'm not a big Landstill player so you'll have to bear with me. In lists like konsultant's, is it there mostly to keep the blue card count high enough to run Force of Will? I understand it's one of the most powerful cards in the format, but it seems like an E. Tutor package would be more synergistic with the deck and would allow for the inclusion of powerful 1-ofs such as Crucible or Humility (neither of which are apparently necessary, although rockout seemed to like his crucible). However, that cuts the non-Force blue card count down to 12 which seems way too low, and then you're pitching much more powerful cards like FoF/Standstill (cards that provide actual card advantage) or other counterspells. This combined with E. Tutor providing card disadvantage and I can see why Brainstorm gets a spot in the deck. If I'm way off in my assumption please let me know.

The concept of running Brainstorm is simple in this deck; you tend to cast Brainstorm when you're looking for a specific card, optimizing or hitting UU on Turn 2 to have Counterspell mana open (even for bluffing purposes). Yes, you can run more cards in place of Brainstorm like say 2 more Fact or Fictions or a playset of Spell Snares. The problem with this is that you won't be able to capitalize on your draw spells as well as you used to and you have to mulligan more hands.

The Blue count in Landstill has always been 18 Blue cards minimum. The reasoning for that is that you don't really cast FoW early game often unless it is against combo. Against Threshold or other random aggro decks, you tend to save FoW in your hand to help reinforce your board sweepers and removal. So personally, I wouldn't go any lower than that.

ETutor must be used in addition to Brainstorm, otherwise it just sucks. It's also a shuffle effect, so why would you exclude Brainstorm here?


Secondly, on (non-Factory) win conditions, konsultant's list with 3x Decree and 2x Dragon and rockout's list with 2x Elspeth, 2x Decree and 1x Dragon both seem like a lot when this deck runs such powerful draw spells and doesn't need to see a win-con until the mid to late game. Are 4+ win-cons necessary to prevent massive amounts of drawn rounds? I apologize if this is the stuff you learn in Landstill kindergarten, but again, I'm not as familiar with the deck.

Landstill actually finishes rounds quickly if you've practiced with your deck. You should be making quick and decisive decisions since many decisions tend to become quite intuitive. Rabid Wombat, many claimed, had the same problem simply because it's a control deck. All the good players played Wombat well within round time because they have experience with the deck. Good players should always be able to play Control well within the 50 min round limit.

As for the extra win conditions, it's just to diversify win conditions and control mechanics. Elspeth is basically a Bitterblossom that makes Humility indestructible as the game progresses. Why you're running her is because she's just synergistic and aggressive.


I have tested extensively with Elspeth, but I am saddened because Elspeths are 30 dollars. : (

[mossivo1986]

The concept of running Brainstorm is simple in this deck; you tend to cast Brainstorm when you're looking for a specific card, optimizing or hitting UU on Turn 2 to have Counterspell mana open (even for bluffing purposes). Yes, you can run more cards in place of Brainstorm like say 2 more Fact or Fictions or a playset of Spell Snares. The problem with this is that you won't be able to capitalize on your draw spells as well as you used to and you have to mulligan more hands.

The Blue count in Landstill has always been 18 Blue cards minimum. The reasoning for that is that you don't really cast FoW early game often unless it is against combo. Against Threshold or other random aggro decks, you tend to save FoW in your hand to help reinforce your board sweepers and removal. So personally, I wouldn't go any lower than that.

ETutor must be used in addition to Brainstorm, otherwise it just sucks. It's also a shuffle effect, so why would you exclude Brainstorm here?



Landstill actually finishes rounds quickly if you've practiced with your deck. You should be making quick and decisive decisions since many decisions tend to become quite intuitive. Rabid Wombat, many claimed, had the same problem simply because it's a control deck. All the good players played Wombat well within round time because they have experience with the deck. Good players should always be able to play Control well within the 50 min round limit.

As for the extra win conditions, it's just to diversify win conditions and control mechanics. Elspeth is basically a Bitterblossom that makes Humility indestructible as the game progresses. Why you're running her is because she's just synergistic and aggressive.


I have tested extensively with Elspeth, but I am saddened because Elspeths are 30 dollars. : (

So I guess that answer would be Library manipulation is something that landstill thrives on to control the early game and get into th late game where it has inevitability against most decks in this format.

Some newer builds are running a recent addition of ponder as it allows you to continuously dig and keep your library t3 in good shape. This is exceptionally usefull against decks with hymn or decks with top because it allows you to keep up with their card manipulation as well.

Though I do agree that elspeths final ability is relevant with humility I would say its more about making your factories/soldier tokens indestructable then humility per say. Now granted humility + elspeth is just wicked.

That said I did want to ask if people are more willing to sac at 8 or if they tend to go to 9 to keep her in play? I tend to go to 9 just to play carefully, but I don't know if theres a tempo difference. I also tend to make my tokens and be passive with them if my opponent has opposing mishra's or goyf or almost anything in play because for the most part I can wait them out and go inevitable like I said before.

Also has anyone tested relic in the main? My testing results of dif's list have been very successfull with it as goyf and tombstalker are a thriving part of the metagame right now.

thoughts? Feelings? Donations? j/k :)

-Joel.

[Irish_Mafia]

I could see how relic would be useful in the main, but the problem is what would you cut from the main for it. I mean you already have 3 wraths, EE, and humility to deal with those creatures.

[mossivo1986]

I could see how relic would be useful in the main, but the problem is what would you cut from the main for it. I mean you already have 3 wraths, EE, and humility to deal with those creatures.

Landstill is HIGHLY interchangable unlike some other decks in this format, and one of the key bonus's is that there really is no limit to where this deck can go. "see dreadstill." Bottom line if you want to metagame correctly then it can very well be the dtb at any tourney.

[Citrus-God]

That said I did want to ask if people are more willing to sac at 8 or if they tend to go to 9 to keep her in play? I tend to go to 9 just to play carefully, but I don't know if theres a tempo difference. I also tend to make my tokens and be passive with them if my opponent has opposing mishra's or goyf or almost anything in play because for the most part I can wait them out and go inevitable like I said before.



I wouldn't dismiss her first ability that much; I mean, she's a Bitterblossom for godsakes! Granted, that's not a reason to run Bitterblossom, but her 3rd ability is reason enough.

I tend to crack her on 8 when I have a DoJ or 2nd Humility in hand or if I'm facing Grips. It makes sense to crack her ASAP then.

[mossivo1986]

I wouldn't dismiss her first ability that much; I mean, she's a Bitterblossom for godsakes! Granted, that's not a reason to run Bitterblossom, but her 3rd ability is reason enough.

I tend to crack her on 8 when I have a DoJ or 2nd Humility in hand or if I'm facing Grips. It makes sense to crack her ASAP then.

I dont know if it's even worth it. The ends justify the means to me enough to keep her alive most of the time I would say. Especially against decks packing stifle. And alot of people out there playing random decks know that if they dont use their grips quick they just sit in their hand as dead cards as more then likely im not going to give up the prize after ive seen the bait in the previous game.

bottom line I totally agree with elspeth and all of my playtesting shows its amazing, but the question remains 1-2. Alot of lists ive seen run 1, but I do usually feel like 2 for the standard lists is a must.

[Citrus-God]

I dont know if it's even worth it. The ends justify the means to me enough to keep her alive most of the time I would say. Especially against decks packing stifle. And alot of people out there playing random decks know that if they dont use their grips quick they just sit in their hand as dead cards as more then likely im not going to give up the prize after ive seen the bait in the previous game.

It shouldn't matter really, because your Factories are indestructible then. Even if they do Stifle your DoJ, you still have more better creatures than they do.


bottom line I totally agree with elspeth and all of my playtesting shows its amazing, but the question remains 1-2. Alot of lists ive seen run 1, but I do usually feel like 2 for the standard lists is a must.

I playtested with 2 copies of Elspeth. She's amazing. Only problem is actually finding copies of her and having them be affordable. I refuse to spend 30 bucks on a magic card right now though. I already bought the staples, so yeah...

[Benie Bederios]

It shouldn't matter really, because your Factories are indestructible then. Even if they do Stifle your DoJ, you still have more better creatures than they do.


Didn't he mean someone Stifled Elspeth, when you remove eight of eight counters??

BB

[Citrus-God]

Didn't he mean someone Stifled Elspeth, when you remove eight of eight counters??

BB

I don't think you can Stifle Planeswalkers. I'm not completely sure of this atm, but if it does, then it really just comes down to what decks you play against. I can see myself moving up to 9 counters pre-board, but post-board, I might be more aggressive with Elspeth.

[GUnit]

You can absolutely stifle the activated abilities on planeswalkers.

[FredMaster]

You can absolutely stifle the activated abilities on planeswalkers.Therefore you can even Needle them :/

[rockout]

I would hope I wouldn't be a bad enough player to walk into a stifle on my ultimate activation.

I found a post about planeswalker's abilities being activated if you want to do a quick read.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10598&highlight=planeswalker

[thefreakaccident]

I don't understand why Konsultant's list does not include sensei's divining top...


The card has been my MVP every game I have played in the last two months.

It does everything this decks needs:

1. early landdrops
2. lategame push
3. plays under standstill amazingly


The card has been nutz, especially since it allows me to run a slightly lower land count (23 from 24, not big, but still), and it allows me to play the powerhouse of a card we know as counterbalance in the board.

Counterbalance usually comes in for humilities/Wogs against combo/burn, and it usually works out great as the curve lowers with its' inclusion... and it shuts them down (plus I also run runed halo for those MUs as well)...

Combo has been amazing for me postboard as of late.


I also want to discuss elseph...

I tested her for a couple of days, and I didn't like her too much... It felt like I was simply stallblocking with the tokens until I could get something else... she was great w/ humility, but that doesn't really matter as you usually just win with humility anyways.

I think that she is not worth the slot IMO, at least not for my metagame.

[Irish_Mafia]

I would rather bring in Runed Halo and Meddling mage over counterbalance. counterbalance is awesome but it requires top. Where as Halo or MM requires just one card to be effective.

Although top could be a good inclusion into the deck.

And as for elspeth, the card is amazing. It pumps out blockers if needed. and makes the mirror a joke. Not only if it gets to 8 you win but it makes factories and such able to deal a lot of damage. It is amazing under standstill. I am in love with the card.

[Team-Hero]

I would rather bring in Runed Halo and Meddling mage over counterbalance. counterbalance is awesome but it requires top. Where as Halo or MM requires just one card to be effective.

Is Meddling Mage better than Runed Halo in the side?
I'm just really scared of AngelStaX. Other than Sacred Ground, what else is good against them?

[electrolyze]

I'm going to play a pretty big tourney upcoming sunday with landstill,

Its my first time I play it, so I dont have that much expirience with the deck. Is this a good list:

4xbrainstorm
4xstandstill
2xfact or fiction

4xswords to plowshares
3xwrath of god
3xengineered explosives
2xhumility

3xdecree of justice
2xeternal dragon

4xforce of will
3xcounterspell
3xspell snare

4xtundra
1xunderground sea
1xscrubland
3xflooded strand
3xunderground sea
4xmishra's factory
3xwasteland
2xisland
2xplains

side:

2xajani, goldmane
3xmeddling mage
3xruned halo
3xrelic of progenitus
4xengineered plague

Altough I have a pretty random meta, I excpect this decks wil show up the most:

goblins, tes, dreadstill, aggroloam, counterbalance thresh and team america.

Is this a good build for this meta or not?

[mossivo1986]

I don't understand why Konsultant's list does not include sensei's divining top...


The card has been my MVP every game I have played in the last two months.

It does everything this decks needs:

1. early landdrops
2. lategame push
3. plays under standstill amazingly


The card has been nutz, especially since it allows me to run a slightly lower land count (23 from 24, not big, but still), and it allows me to play the powerhouse of a card we know as counterbalance in the board.

Counterbalance usually comes in for humilities/Wogs against combo/burn, and it usually works out great as the curve lowers with its' inclusion... and it shuts them down (plus I also run runed halo for those MUs as well)...

Combo has been amazing for me postboard as of late.


I also want to discuss elseph...

I tested her for a couple of days, and I didn't like her too much... It felt like I was simply stallblocking with the tokens until I could get something else... she was great w/ humility, but that doesn't really matter as you usually just win with humility anyways.

I think that she is not worth the slot IMO, at least not for my metagame.

Because it doesn't follow the thoery that you want to play landstill around. Namely the mana you spend sorting out your manipulation along with minus one card is mana better spend and a card better spent that can both cantrip and or get you something you need now vs something that costs you to use its 2nd ability."

[rockout]

@electrolyze: that list looks extremely good to combat that meta. You have 4 underground seas in your list with no main deck black you can just run more basics to beat the vase amount of non basic land in your meta

[TeKo]

I think 3 U Seas should be Deltas.

[mossivo1986]

I'm going to play a pretty big tourney upcoming sunday with landstill,

Its my first time I play it, so I dont have that much expirience with the deck. Is this a good list:

4xbrainstorm
4xstandstill
2xfact or fiction

4xswords to plowshares
3xwrath of god
3xengineered explosives
2xhumility

3xdecree of justice
2xeternal dragon

4xforce of will
3xcounterspell
3xspell snare

4xtundra
1xunderground sea
1xscrubland
3xflooded strand
3xunderground sea
4xmishra's factory
3xwasteland
2xisland
2xplains

side:

2xajani, goldmane
3xmeddling mage
3xruned halo
3xrelic of progenitus
4xengineered plague

Altough I have a pretty random meta, I excpect this decks wil show up the most:

goblins, tes, dreadstill, aggroloam, counterbalance thresh and team america.

Is this a good build for this meta or not?


take out the ep add in x3 hydro "1x blue emental blast, 2x hydro." also add in a fourth relic to the side.

To me your list looks very generic as far as it's approach, and lack of vindicate or cunning wish really leaves you wanting more. Also the lack of ruins or any utility lands is also going to leave you wanting more. At worst this is the landbase you probobly should be running.


// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [B] Tundra
1 [B] Underground Sea
1 [B] Scrubland
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
1 [TE] Wasteland
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
3 [9E] Plains (3)
4 [10E] Island (3)

This is if you don't like utility though. But honestly I would advise against playing wasteland period. If it were me this would be my land base for your deck.

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [B] Tundra
1 [B] Underground Sea
1 [B] Scrubland
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
3 [9E] Plains (3)
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
4 [10E] Island (3)

This gives you utility under standstill and also the ability to grab answers at will. Its a much more aggressive approach as dustbowl can win you games basicly alone, and academy ruins ee lock is just phenominal.

as far as your maindeck goes your not running cunning wish or vindicate or countertop which really hurts you preboard to lame shenanigans.

Cleaning up your deck is essential for a strong running machine.

Without making dramatic changes to your deck i would say cutt the access fat of this deck. I found 6 "fat" that could deffinately be cutt to make a smoother running more consistent curve as well as more powerfull options.

I took out
-1 counterspell
-1 Decree
-1 Standstill
-1 EE
-1 Fact or fiction
-1 Humility

Now you have some options with these cutts. You can -a- go tool boxish build and if you decide to do that I would STRONGLY reccomend Wish as a 2 of. If you shy away from wish you probobly could go with a more down to earth true 2 color model and run 4 standstills. As for my approach this is how I would go:

// Creatures
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
1[IA] Counterspell
2 [FNM] Fact or Fiction
1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
4 [OD] Standstill
1 [SHM] Runed Halo
1 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
1 [TE] Humility
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [8E] Wrath of God
4 [OV] Swords to Plowshares

As for the counterbase it goes against what I have been taught and believe in "+8 counters in landstill" but it was down to runed halo and 1 counterspell and counterspell won for the two color "basicly" model.

The list I've been playing for quite some time and have had alot of success with is Dif's experimental list.

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
3 [UNH] Plains
3 [UNH] Island
3 [JGC] Mishra's Factory
4 [B] Tundra
1 [B] Underground Sea
1 [B] Scrubland

// Creatures
3 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
1 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant

// Spells
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
3 [LRW] Ponder
3 [OD] Standstill
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
1 [IN] Fact or Fiction
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [10E] Wrath of God
1 [TE] Humility
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [SHM] Runed Halo
3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
2 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [SHM] Runed Halo
SB: 2 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 1 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
SB: 3 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
SB: 1 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Return to Dust
SB: 1 Relic of pro- blahblah "you get the point."

[electrolyze]

Thanks guys for the imput. Oh, and the 3 sea's supposed to be delta's indeed:laugh: But i changed it to 4 floodeds and 2 delta's since i dont run basic swamp and maindeck black cards.

I really know vindicate is good but i really wanted a 3th wog. I discovered that goblins can be really pitty so i guess that would be the same against elves and maybe random aggro decks too. And I wanted humility either, because I think loam decks can be hard sometimes too(if they go stronghold, genesis, witness etc. and recur the whole bunch.)

About the manabase,

I like ruins, dust bowl and that kind of things in the base, because i dont have that much expirience witht he deck I dont know what is better. Should I leave the 3 wastelands in the deck or should I add dust bowl and ruins?

I saw Konsultant's list running 3 wasteland but other lists dust bowl and ruins(and maybe tolaria west).

[mossivo1986]

It's really preferance and I prefer toolbox more then anything. I can tell you this much. I would NEVER go x3 wasteland with the current success i've had.

[gustha]

Running 3 wasteland (as usual in landstill before Dif suggested dust bowl last year, and then everybody runs dust bowl) has a purpose in konsultant's list. Dust bowl allows the deck to plan a more long-term game and to be less dependant on crucible of worlds. But i would never pair it with only 3 mishra... I've seen deck running 1 dust 1 waste 4 mishra 1 mutavault and that's fair better vs mirror. Anyway, dust bowl goes well in a deck which abuses of decree of justice and cantrips, and is more defensive then offensive since the cost it requires is pretty high. Landstill does no more run 3 waste because land destruction is no more a must for it (and, as already said, tends to make the deck too much dependant on crucible, and therefore crucible became an utility from the bomb it was before dust bowl). With vindicate, the deck finds a new support for land destruction (which hits basics as well as nonbasics) and tends to be more aggresive on the board. For this gameplan, dust bowl is less effective then 3 wastelands. I'm wondering the same things in these days, as I'm studyin the list I've suggested. I would go to 5-6 basics, but i can't cut the wastes simply because they naturally fit in a deck with vindicate, while dust bowl is antisynergystic. I'm also thinking about a compromise: 1 dust+1 waste. But if you run a deck with vindicate, and you test it, you'll feel that you want to go back to the way landstill was played two years ago, and especially in vintage, where land destruction/mana denial was its key for the victory. I'm not saying that waste is far better than dust bowl, but they are conceived for two different styles of play. You want to be more aggressive and run vindicate? 3 waste is what you need. You want a solid deck with many basics to have some advantage on decks that run LD like 3sh team gobbos? add lots of basics and run monodust (and academy ruins, for sure!), that's great!

These are the 2 versions i'm working on:

instant [18]
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares

sorcery [7]
2 Decree of Justice
3 Vindicate
2 Wrath of God

enchantment [3]
3 Standstill

artifact [4]
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Nevinyrral's Disk

land [24]
1 Academy Ruins
3 Flooded Strand
3 Island
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Plains
2 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
3 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland

planeswalker [5]
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Jace Beleren

61 card

SB: in progress. maybe:
1 tormod
2 ajani/humility/relic/halo
3 mage/eplague

The differences between the other are in fact very small, and the do regard the number of waste, the presence or absence of dragon and dust. Like this:

creature [1]
Eternal Dragon

land [24]
1 Academy Ruins
3 Flooded Strand
3 Island
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Plains
2 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
3 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Wasteland
1 Dust Bowl

I really like dragon, in this list is very efficient. The cut of the 4th tundra is still to be tested, but if I plan to play many basics this shouldn't be a problem. I need the basic swamp for vindicate, especially in matches like gobbo where cruci can be sided out. Still, i miss humility, but vindicate is really amazing...

[Citrus-God]

Running 3 wasteland (as usual in landstill before Dif suggested dust bowl last year, and then everybody runs dust bowl) has a purpose in konsultant's list. Dust bowl allows the deck to plan a more long-term game and to be less dependant on crucible of worlds. But i would never pair it with only 3 mishra... I've seen deck running 1 dust 1 waste 4 mishra 1 mutavault and that's fair better vs mirror. Anyway, dust bowl goes well in a deck which abuses of decree of justice and cantrips, and is more defensive then offensive since the cost it requires is pretty high. Landstill does no more run 3 waste because land destruction is no more a must for it (and, as already said, tends to make the deck too much dependant on crucible, and therefore crucible became an utility from the bomb it was before dust bowl). With vindicate, the deck finds a new support for land destruction (which hits basics as well as nonbasics) and tends to be more aggresive on the board. For this gameplan, dust bowl is less effective then 3 wastelands. I'm wondering the same things in these days, as I'm studyin the list I've suggested. I would go to 5-6 basics, but i can't cut the wastes simply because they naturally fit in a deck with vindicate, while dust bowl is antisynergystic. I'm also thinking about a compromise: 1 dust+1 waste. But if you run a deck with vindicate, and you test it, you'll feel that you want to go back to the way landstill was played two years ago, and especially in vintage, where land destruction/mana denial was its key for the victory. I'm not saying that waste is far better than dust bowl, but they are conceived for two different styles of play. You want to be more aggressive and run vindicate? 3 waste is what you need. You want a solid deck with many basics to have some advantage on decks that run LD like 3sh team gobbos? add lots of basics and run monodust (and academy ruins, for sure!), that's great!

For the record, I recommended Dust Bowl to DIF...

Also, I'd rather have 3 Wastelands against the mirror match and Dreadstill. They're just better for the manland/Standstill war. You also have a reason to keep Standstills post-board. Also, Extirpate + Wasteland on Mishra's Factory is a savage play. It's also crippling against Dreadstill.

Wastelands also do a better job at killing random shit like Rishadan Port against Vial Goblins or Tomb lands against Prison.

[Irish_Mafia]

I agree wastelands, are just faster. They help keeping TA off Double Black as well. And I have played games against them where dropping a sea, keeps them on land screw for many turns.

[electrolyze]

So, if you play vindicate you probably better can play wastelands? But if i dont play vindicate, dust bowl and ruins are better?

For what mu's are vindicate(+wasteland eventually) good?

And for what mu's is dust bowl better?

[gustha]

So, if you play vindicate you probably better can play wastelands? But if i dont play vindicate, dust bowl and ruins are better?

For what mu's are vindicate(+wasteland eventually) good?

And for what mu's is dust bowl better?

1. wasteland is not an eventuality with vindicate
2. ruins is not an option, but a MUST.

Answering to your question, I feel like the lis with windicate improves the MU against aggro-aggrocontrol in general, and slightly against ichori. burn is still a pain preboard. Also, is fairly good in mirror, and I haven't tested yet against combo. The bowl version = the tutor/wish version, which I think is more suited for slower or specifically aggro metas.

[thefreakaccident]

Because it doesn't follow the thoery that you want to play landstill around. Namely the mana you spend sorting out your manipulation along with minus one card is mana better spend and a card better spent that can both cantrip and or get you something you need now vs something that costs you to use its 2nd ability."

But isn't this a lategame based deck?

The way that I use the card might be a little different than you think I use it...


Usually we will not have a first turn play, which is where it may come in...

Most of the time, I will plop it down once I have dealt w/ their initial onslaught of cards/threats... it allows me to set-up a much stronger lategame against the mirror (getting much more CQ over time, especially w/ dragon&fetches)... it also allows me to not run out of answers against agro (digging in the mid-late gameif need be)... it also keeps my hand chaff free in a lot of MUs, allowing me to have a hand full of removal against agro, and a hand full of counters against combo; not to mention hitting ALL of my landdrops without fail.

The additional bonus of CB in the board allows me to shut down both burn (tough MU, it answers all their cards instead of just a few which is where beb lacks) and combo (they don't just bounce it and go off, or kill it w/ grapeshot like the mage sometimes).


I could be totally off-base, but these cards have been amazing for me in my metagame... I just cannot see why people would not want to play them.


Or perhaps they just have not considered it yet.

[Irish_Mafia]

Yes this is a late game deck, But the problem is getting to the game. Once that happens you should win

[mossivo1986]

1. wasteland is not an eventality with wasteland
2. ruins is not an option, but a MUST.

Answering to your question, I feel like the lis with windicate improves the MU against aggro-aggrocontrol in general, and slightly against ichori. burn is still a pain preboard. Also, is fairly good in mirror, and I haven't tested yet against combo. The bowl version = the tutor/wish version, which I think is more suited for slower or specifically aggro metas.

Depending upon what your talking about for a wish lists there is deffinately a strong difference in how different wish lists play. As an example the list Im playing now has a much stronger game against aggro control decks that run tombstalker/ tarmogoyf or anything graveyard base like ichorid or even survival because of maindeck relic's as well as vendilion clique on loam ect. You need to specify which type of wish still your refering too. My weaker game is against the pure control decks like mono blue control or decks that specificly hoze blue based control decks like merfolk.

As far as wasteland is concerned I cant possibly think of a reason to run 3 wasteland along with 4 mishras and an academy ruins. thats 8 colorless sources!!! Terrible mana fixing if you ask me. Your just begging to get hurt by running 23 lands with that kind of a base. Dustbowl is better in the mirror because it allows you to stay consistent with your colors as well as having multiple uses under standstill without the aid of crucible.

[gustha]

Depending upon what your talking about for a wish lists there is deffinately a strong difference in how different wish lists play. As an example the list Im playing now has a much stronger game against aggro control decks that run tombstalker/ tarmogoyf or anything graveyard base like ichorid or even survival because of maindeck relic's as well as vendilion clique on loam ect. You need to specify which type of wish still your refering too. My weaker game is against the pure control decks like mono blue control or decks that specificly hoze blue based control decks like merfolk.

As far as wasteland is concerned I cant possibly think of a reason to run 3 wasteland along with 4 mishras and an academy ruins. thats 8 colorless sources!!! Terrible mana fixing if you ask me. Your just begging to get hurt by running 23 lands with that kind of a base. Dustbowl is better in the mirror because it allows you to stay consistent with your colors as well as having multiple uses under standstill without the aid of crucible.

There's an error: i meant wastelnad is a must with vindicate, for the reasons explained above. Bust bowl obv is good in a list like cunningstill which uses to hide behind standstill (while vindicate-still is, for its nature, more aggressive on the board. That's also why I really like jace as 2nd PW). And no, i think that there's no different approach of cunningstill, you simply put 3 relics MD in a classic list, i really see no different approaches besides the sb has a little changed. imho there are now 3-4 different approaches:
1) cunningstill
2) "e-tutor"-still
3) cunning+e tutor
4) "vindicate"-still

You're simply trying to improve Mu against decks that abuses of grave and tarmo's and stalker's, not introducing a brand new branch of landstill, imho. I guess that if your meta were full of brainless aggro and there were no trace of grave.dec nor tarmo etc., you'll simply play the solid and slow cunning-list.

[mossivo1986]

There's an error: i meant wastelnad is a must with vindicate, for the reasons explained above. Bust bowl obv is good in a list like cunningstill which uses to hide behind standstill (while vindicate-still is, for its nature, more aggressive on the board..

You could have made that sound alot better then making wish still sound
like a deck that hides under standstill as thats pretty much what they all do. Just because vindicate-still runs 3x wasteland and a sorcery speed permanant disruptor doesnt make it any better at being aggresive then thw wish still variant that I run. In fact I beg to differ that the list I presented you with is actually much more aggresive in the red zone and has a better overall gameplan then vindicate-still has generally speaking. The trade is actually cost for efficiency "mana base for cost" if you will. I choose cost, some choose efficiency. Lets break it down simple style for you little soldier.

Vindicate still has to run additional black sources "more then 1 sea 1 scrubland" to make their vindicates playable upon drawing them. the reason wish still plays only 1-1 for black splits is because the splash is incredibly light and used for ee and/ or extirpate if you need it. It's a timing land if you will vs something you actually do need to obtain in the game. So while vindicate lists more then likely run 2-2 split and/or additional fetches they still weaken their mana base to obtain that third color splash. Now lets talk about this wasteland issue people keep bringing up

Not to mention the differences in colored mana sources versus non-colored mana source.

3 mishra
1 dust
1 ruins
1 tolaria west

vs
4 mishra
3x wasteland
1 ruins.

Notice something interesting here? How about that vindicate still complicates its mana base with count them 8 sources of colorless lands to suit their color intensive mana base that they already have. Now granted there will always be situations where wasteland is superior to dustbowl, but as a general principle I would take dustbowl in most of these situations simply because it doesn't require you to have additional copies or a completely wacky manabase. .[/QUOTE]



That's also why I really like jace as 2nd PW). And no, i think that there's no different approach of cunningstill, you simply put 3 relics MD in a classic list, i really see no different approaches besides the sb has a little changed. imho there are now 3-4 different approaches:
1) cunningstill
2) "e-tutor"-still
3) cunning+e tutor
4) "vindicate"-still.

lets talk about the 3-4 different approaches.

While we are at it why dont we add in versions that run replenish and opalescence as well. I mean were counting e tutor still whatever the hell that is. Oh thats the list you made up about 4 pages back. Right. Well as far as difference approaches are concerned I wouldnt count some homebrew you just randomly put together and called a solid list something to concieve as top tier without testing against a wider variety of opponents. If you'd REALLY like to know the different approaches that are concievable lets go back to the drawing board. Officially when you scan this thread you see 3 different approaches.

1. 3c Countertop still
2. 3c Vindicate still
3. 3c wish Still

Then you have four color models as well:

1. 4c_wish_still "deed LFTL humility variant"
2. 4c Tacosnape "his original version with 2 md krosan grip and diabolic edicts I believe"
3. 4c with goyf and tombstalker "recent adaption that placed. Similar to tacos list"
4. 4c counter top "I believe this is similar to TEC the epic control"



You're simply trying to improve Mu against decks that abuses of grave and tarmo's and stalker's, not introducing a brand new branch of landstill, imho. I guess that if your meta were full of brainless aggro and there were no trace of grave.dec nor tarmo etc., you'll simply play the solid and slow cunning-list.

So now that you've bashed this list twice and said how its "classic" but 3 md relics, lets prove you wrong again and show you how much different this list actually is then other lists.


Since we have already talked about the landbase theres no reason to post it.
Ill bold anything thats different then "classic" lists.

// Creatures
3 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
1 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant "its a 1 of not 2 in this list"

// Spells
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
3 [LRW] Ponder
3 [OD] Standstill "normal lists play 4"
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
1 [IN] Fact or Fiction "the last time this was played in wish still was in the board of the 4c versions when I first picked up this deck."

4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [10E] Wrath of God
1 [TE] Humility
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives "normally a 3 of"
1 [SHM] Runed Halo "normally not played in the md"
3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
2 [DIS] Spell Snare "normally a 3 of"

4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares

oh and also note a lack of counterspell. I hear optimal builds of landstill now a days dont run +8 counters.

This version is classic though as you know other then the 3 relics. right? "extreme sarcasm."

If you have any further comments about the list I run feel free to pm me and we can flame all night over pms. I will no longer be defending over the dtb forum. Thanx.

P.S. Please feel free to remove head from ass.

[rockout]

Yawn, play with what works. There are definitely differences between running cunning wish and not running cunning wish. If you want to run the best removal suite the format has to offer in vindicate, swords, ee, wrath then by all means. If you want to run the best search spell besides maybe intuition than run cunning wish. I prefer running more answers than "fat." Whatever deck you choose to run should fit your play style.

[Citrus-God]

Notice something interesting here? How about that vindicate still complicates its mana base with count them 8 sources of colorless lands to suit their color intensive mana base that they already have. Now granted there will always be situations where wasteland is superior to dustbowl, but as a general principle I would take dustbowl in most of these situations simply because it doesn't require you to have additional copies or a completely wacky manabase.

Notice how you win more mirror matches and random mana screws with 3 Wastelands? Also notice how you're arguing against great results from a great player with a great deck? Notice how you only use Wasteland to destroy random shit early game so that dropping a Standstill isn't a nuisance? Notice how you can keep Standstills in post-board? Notice how you don't have to run Academy Ruins? Notice how Geoff Smelski actually has a Sideboard?


As for your comment about how optimal lists of Landstill doesn't run 8 counters, this is not completely true at all. Geoff Smelski runs 8 hard counters, Rockout probably still run 8 hard counters, Tacosnape runs 8 card counters and I still run 8 hard counters.

P.S. You're condescending. Now you're just flaming Gustha. If he wants to be ignant, let him be ignant. If you think you're right, then it's his mistake for taking this approach to Landstill and making the mistake of not "listening" to you.

From what I've seen so far, Gustha has only questioned you, and you're just hostilely answering him with a huge amount of aggravation. The point of a forum is to debate, and you're just attacking him at this point. This doesn't take discussion anywhere, really.


P.P.S. Landstill has always been aggressive and in the "Red Zone." Haven't you ever casted a DoJ for 2 Angel tokens against RGSA or other random dorky decks? Have you ever boarded Counterbalance in just did a Dreadstill approach and just concentrate on disruption and getting Counterbalance active as you bash your opponent with Factories? Emphasizing your game plan more on the red zone against aggro is just a recipe for disaster. Landstill is at heart a UW Control deck. You should be using those board control elements to good use. And you can't make a broad claim that 4c Landstill isn't a UW Control deck, their game plan and principles are the same; control the board, chain draw and build up card advantage and quality, and win when convenient.

[thefreakaccident]

Notice how you win more mirror matches and random mana screws with 3 Wastelands? Also notice how you're arguing against great results from a great player with a great deck? Notice how you only use Wasteland to destroy random shit early game so that dropping a Standstill isn't a nuisance? Notice how you can keep Standstills in post-board? Notice how you don't have to run Academy Ruins? Notice how Geoff Smelski actually has a Sideboard?


As for your comment about how optimal lists of Landstill doesn't run 8 counters, this is not completely true at all. Geoff Smelski runs 8 hard counters, Rockout probably still run 8 hard counters, Tacosnape runs 8 card counters and I still run 8 hard counters.

P.S. You're a condescending. Now you're just flaming Gustha. If he wants to be ignant, let him be ignant. If you think you're right, then it's his mistake for taking this approach to Landstill and making the mistake of not "listening" to you.

From what I've seen so far, Gustha has only questioned you, and you're just hostilely answering him with a huge amount of aggravation. The point of a forum is to debate, and you're just attacking him at this point. This doesn't take discussion anywhere, really.


P.P.S. Landstill has always been aggressive and in the "Red Zone." Haven't you ever casted a DoJ for 2 Angel tokens against RGSA or other random dorky decks? Have you ever boarded Counterbalance in just did a Dreadstill approach and just concentrate on disruption and getting Counterbalance active as you bash your opponent with Factories? Emphasizing your game plan more on the red zone against aggro is just a recipe for disaster. Landstill is at heart a UW Control deck. You should be using those board control elements to good use. And you can't make a broad claim that 4c Landstill isn't a UW Control deck, their game plan and principles are the same; control the board, chain draw and build up card advantage and quality, and win when convenient.



I think we all need to calm down a little bit, as eeyone seems petty upset ight now...

Clique in landstill?

How does that wok out?

[gustha]

Premise: i'm absolutely calm, and I don't want to flame or other, just to answer politely but firmly. There's no really need to insult or whatever, in a civili and public discussion (that is the measure of one's intelligence).

Premise #2: I played cunningstill alot (it's 2 years, maybe, that i'm playing the same archetype), and I'm not saying I'm the master of landstill or anything else, but I quite know the deck (or a specific version of it, at least. Sure I forgot 3c countertop, I can be excused because I've never considered this possibility in my builds.).


Just because vindicate-still runs 3x wasteland and a sorcery speed permanant disruptor doesnt make it any better at being aggresive then the wish still variant that I run.

It does, it does. I quote everything rockout said and citrus-god too. There's a specific difference in a deck that runs a disruption pack where another deck has a draw engine. I'm not saying that vindicate-still has a lower clock than cunninstill or becomes an aggrocontrol deck with vindicate and wastelands (if is this that you deny), but simply that running a disruption pack in the place of a serch engine requires a different attitude towards the deck, where the player who chooses a massive disruption pack can certain be qualified as "more aggressive" then a player who chooses the search/tutor engine.


Vindicate still has to run additional black sources "more then 1 sea 1 scrubland" to make their vindicates playable upon drawing them. the reason wish still plays only 1-1 for black splits is because the splash is incredibly light and used for ee and/ or extirpate if you need it. It's a timing land if you will vs something you actually do need to obtain in the game. So while vindicate lists more then likely run 2-2 split and/or additional fetches they still weaken their mana base to obtain that third color splash.

This is not a must, this is an option. I'm not obliged to run the basic swamp, not even to play more than 1 sea/scrubland. It's simply matter of taste, I want the basic swamp, period. You run 3/6 LD pack. If an opponent worries to waste your sea/scrubland while he is under land destruction and has to play carefully with tight mana, he's a fool. We don't use vindicate as a tempo-tool as tempo-thresh uses wastes and stifle, so black can be used as it was before. Also, wastelands power up again the role of crucible, and this means mana stability. All these factors together are enough to eliminate the basic swamp, but I like to have it, so here it is. And, as you see below, i Hae 6-7 basics, fair enough I think.

land [24]
1 Academy Ruins
3 Flooded Strand
3 Island
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Plains
2 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
3 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland


Now lets talk about this wasteland issue people keep bringing up

Not to mention the differences in colored mana sources versus non-colored mana source.

3 mishra
1 dust
1 ruins
1 tolaria west

vs
4 mishra
3x wasteland
1 ruins.

Notice something interesting here? How about that vindicate still complicates its mana base with count them 8 sources of colorless lands to suit their color intensive mana base that they already have. Now granted there will always be situations where wasteland is superior to dustbowl, but as a general principle I would take dustbowl in most of these situations simply because it doesn't require you to have additional copies or a completely wacky manabase. .

Just for beginning, I run 3 mishra 3 waste 1 ruins, so 7 uncolored mana sources, just 1 more than you. I don't complicate my manabase, that is well fixed for now and is not so strange as you depict it. Surely there's the problem of that basic swamp, but that was discussed above. But you're obstinate to repeat that "in general blablabla". There's not a "general" situation in which you can compare bowl to waste, but only specific fields of application. Dust bowl can never be used as a tempo-tool, because it requires so much mana, while wasteland needs just herslef. Dust bowl without crucible is virtually everending (only virtually), waste is ready to use for the MU we don't have the time to go land recursion. Dust bowl is alone. Wasteland is supported by the more versatile disrupt engine of legacy.


Well as far as difference approaches are concerned I wouldnt count some homebrew you just randomly put together and called a solid list something to concieve as top tier without testing against a wider variety of opponents.

First of all, I have specified that mine was only a draft list, just go back and read the discussions, while "e-tutor"-still (it's just a label which distincts the tutor tool from that of wish) is a project well discussed and tested in other forums. I repeat: I'm not the master of anything, but I'm not the last dumbass. However, your objection is exactly what I could say to you. Your list can be solid and whatever, but you can't put up some changes to the classic list and pretend that you invented a new archetype.

// Creatures
3 [MOR] Vendilion Clique (what's this thing?!?)
1 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant "its a 1 of not 2 in this list" (if you play only 1 of that bomb, that doesn't mean you're a pro player)

// Spells
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
3 [LRW] Ponder (i've played ponder last year before dif's list, and was one of the first to put it in landstill and defend it in italy, since no one did give it a chance. then i also give it up for etutor. but it's not that great innovation...)
3 [OD] Standstill "normal lists play 4" (in italy it's about november we started to play with 3 to make rooms for planeswalkers)
2 [JU] Cunning Wish (always played 2)
1 [IN] Fact or Fiction "the last time this was played in wish still was in the board of the 4c versions when I first picked up this deck." (in italy, always MD and a copy sb in classic versions)

4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [10E] Wrath of God
1 [TE] Humility
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives "normally a 3 of" (we prefere a 2/1 split with a massive removal such as disk)
1 [SHM] Runed Halo "normally not played in the md" (good silver bullet, must be present ine very list running etutor)
3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus (metadependat?)
2 [DIS] Spell Snare "normally a 3 of" (spell snare is not normal, can be replaced with many thing and it's not canon. I put it in landstill since the beggining and was criticized a lot)

4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares


oh and also note a lack of counterspell. I hear optimal builds of landstill now a days dont run +8 counters.
Oh, and the fact you don't play counterspell does not mean this is a wonderful list either. Some people do not run counterspell, some people run mana leak, some people run counterspell. Game style and meta, most of all.


This version is classic though as you know other then the 3 relics. right? "extreme sarcasm." If you have any further comments about the list I run feel free to pm me and we can flame all night over pms. I will no longer be defending over the dtb forum. Thanx.
Yeah, I really feel this is just a classic version with some cut of really important things and some strange (but certain useful!) additions. And this does not mean this is a shit and you've never heard me saying it and I certainly do not think it. I surely don't like many things in that list, and in a meta like the north-italian one, full of landstills-thresholds-gobbos-burns I would never play a list like yours. This again does not mean that your list is completely useless nor do I think that. It reflects that landstill has to find some new tools to face the dominance of tarmogoyf ans stalkers and grave games in general in this legacy. This can be discussed. Solutions can be found. Pacifically and politely: this is a public forum. If you think that yours is the ultimate landstill deckbuild and no one has the right to criticize it, that's another matter. ButI think that you're an intelligent person and hope all of your post is due to a mere and human misunderstading.
I hope that discussion could follow with more serenity by now on.

[Resist_Temptation]

I would like to throw my two cents in here. and just try and defend poor clique in landstill. It really helps in certain situations and i actually run 2 of them in my current build. I really like howit plays out. the only problem i have with is and it is 100% due to my crazy topdecks is that just about every time i clique myself and draw the card it is always humility...But if i have a clique on the board it usually means i am either going for a win and have stabilized or i am using it to trade attackers. in both cases either humility wont be needed or my clique wont be around to be affected by humility.

The relics in the mainboard is a purely meta dependent choice. Relic does very well against team america, makes thresholds creatures just that much smaller. and it happens to work well against ichorid. and in the aggro loam matchup i am tempted to call relic removal. In my area there are quite a few loam decks and the relics in the main have really shown that they deserve to be there.

On the topic of wasteland and dust bowl. i have found that if i ran crucible in the main that i would rather run wasteland. but if i didnt run crucible i would want dust bowl. and it also can vary depending on the matchup. I also am working to try and fit in one ofeach. just to see if this helps at all...i have a feeling that this will just flop and i will be back to my indecisive ways.

[Shriekmaw]

Sorry konsultant, but I dont like your list - i rather think its awful.

First the manabase:
I would cut the swamp, it makes nothing.
Then u play 3 wasteland and no crucible (???). Are u playing a fast aggro deck, which can achieve a tempo advantage after wasting a opp' land and finish quickly?
Sure u can play vindicates but u just need the crucible for the lock.
Cut the wasteland's for one dustbowl and add the crucible not only for the lock - it helps u to ensure your landdrops and the CoW is often mvp in many matchups (tempo thresh ugr or ugb, team america).

Vindicate is absolutely awful in landstill. It cost 3 mana is a sorcery, it trades only 1for1 and before I forget it: its a sorcery and landstill wants to play at instant speed or when it plays something at sorcery speed it wants to totally smack the opponent.
U have already the explosives for stuff like that and the explosives is such versatile - it can blow away multiple targets...tokens etc.
I warmly recommand to play the 4th EE when u want to handle more artifacts or stuff.

Where is the humility? It is just too good. U HAVE to play two.

Well, I also suggest to play one or two elspeth - u can cut a decree and/or a E-dragon.

Where is the cunning wish? Also the wish can help u to handle stuff etc. and wish-> pulse or wish->extirpate is often MVP in matchups like burn, goyf slugh or loam.
The wish is also superior to the enlightened tutor. I just dont get it why people try the e.-tutor again. The enlightened tutor is card disadvantage - ok it can get u standstill which would negate this but the wish is the key card in some matchups as I mentioned above and it does the same as the enlightened tutor because u play the enlightened tutor in your sideboard. U can still play wish->enlightened tutor->humility for example.

This is all a regress in the development of landstill.
In todays meta I would try a single sensei to add consistency to your list.


I think the currently list that Geoff is running is pretty amazing. He is by far the best landstill player in legacy. He is always trying to tweak the deck as the metagame is consistenly changing.

The inclusion in the deck was when he added in vindicate b/c it solves so many problem that the deck can have. I wouldn't be hung up on it being a sorcery speed spell.

Also, playing cards like humility is really bad these days b/c of the existence of krosan grip which you can't answer. You have to transform your landstill list into one that deals with the kind of decks you might face.

If you don't like the list then don't play it, but you can't argue with the results its been posting.

[mossivo1986]

About Clique. Clique offers you a pretty abusive flyer in the red zone and most decks either remove it or die from it. I have yet to see vendilion get blocked without humility in play or something to that note. Not to mention the obvious that she has flash. Clique gives also gives you a look if you need it @ what your opponent is playing thus on your turn you can resolve crucial spells. That scenario happens constantly. One of the issues I have seen in landstill is that when you dont know what your opponent has you play much safer then you otherwise would. Which is both smart and numb at the same time. Vendilion clique helps ease your troubles in this way. This also goes in the same regard that the cute little ability finds nothing you want to remove from their hand at their eot step. Another strong ability is to target yourself and remove that lame wrath of god in the armaeddon stax matchup "just named a random matchup" allowing you to -a- get a threat and -b- filter your hand. At 3 mana for a substantial threat in aggro control/ control/ combo matchups it has been worth every mana of the investment. Vendilion can also be a problem if your opponent is running mogg fanatic or fire/ice it can hurt that investment slightly. The main focus though really is that

1. removes life from the loam from opponents hand and doesnt rfg so they can just get it back.

2. Forces opponent to make a key decision which if they choose wrongly opens them up on your turn so you can resolve key spells.

3. Removes specific combo pieces like ad nausium and the like.

4. If left unanswered is a 3/1 flyer and will finish opponents off quickly.

5. acts as a filter in some matchups which can be quite usefull if your looking for just 1 card.

As for relic I would just say that all haters feel free to look at the dtb section and get back with me. Yes I know that every deck will not show up at your local 20 man, or maybe not even all of them at chicago in march. But As far as planning for a large tourney and looking at what decks are performing extremely well I argue to say that well over half of the dtb section is hindered in some way or another wether it be vital or not by relic. We all know it cripples/ hinders aggro loam, ta, ichorid, thresh, survival. But theres decks that at worst it cantrips against a post board how much easier is it to sideboard when they are not incredible against. Yes its a tier choice. I am rolling my dice on the fact that md relics will be incredibly usefull for me.

[thefreakaccident]

I think the currently list that Geoff is running is pretty amazing. He is by far the best landstill player in legacy. He is always trying to tweak the deck as the metagame is consistenly changing.

The inclusion in the deck was when he added in vindicate b/c it solves so many problem that the deck can have. I wouldn't be hung up on it being a sorcery speed spell.

Also, playing cards like humility is really bad these days b/c of the existence of krosan grip which you can't answer. You have to transform your landstill list into one that deals with the kind of decks you might face.

If you don't like the list then don't play it, but you can't argue with the results its been posting.



I like the list... I just prefer the 'set-up' build with Cwish instead of the 'cates... Its' not a 'OMG this build is better' thing, its a playstyle preference, and I am comfortable with it... and I still win w/ it, so its' fine.


I would have to disagree on one thing however... I am the best landstill player in the game! Get it right!

I wish legacy was more alive in SD (only 1 small local left/no events)... I would still be winning every tournament I entered :frown:.

Oh well, perhaps I can travel this summer for a batcave event or something.

[konsultant]

Sorry konsultant, but I dont like your list - i rather think its awful.

First the manabase:
I would cut the swamp, it makes nothing.
Then u play 3 wasteland and no crucible (???). Are u playing a fast aggro deck, which can achieve a tempo advantage after wasting a opp' land and finish quickly?
Sure u can play vindicates but u just need the crucible for the lock.
Cut the wasteland's for one dustbowl and add the crucible not only for the lock - it helps u to ensure your landdrops and the CoW is often mvp in many matchups (tempo thresh ugr or ugb, team america).

Vindicate is absolutely awful in landstill. It cost 3 mana is a sorcery, it trades only 1for1 and before I forget it: its a sorcery and landstill wants to play at instant speed or when it plays something at sorcery speed it wants to totally smack the opponent.
U have already the explosives for stuff like that and the explosives is such versatile - it can blow away multiple targets...tokens etc.
I warmly recommand to play the 4th EE when u want to handle more artifacts or stuff.

Where is the humility? It is just too good. U HAVE to play two.

Well, I also suggest to play one or two elspeth - u can cut a decree and/or a E-dragon.

Where is the cunning wish? Also the wish can help u to handle stuff etc. and wish-> pulse or wish->extirpate is often MVP in matchups like burn, goyf slugh or loam.
The wish is also superior to the enlightened tutor. I just dont get it why people try the e.-tutor again. The enlightened tutor is card disadvantage - ok it can get u standstill which would negate this but the wish is the key card in some matchups as I mentioned above and it does the same as the enlightened tutor because u play the enlightened tutor in your sideboard. U can still play wish->enlightened tutor->humility for example.

This is all a regress in the development of landstill.
In todays meta I would try a single sensei to add consistency to your list.

Sorry for my delay in responding, I didn't realize the thread was exploding with posts again.

The Swamp: Are you kidding me? In a field where Mana Deniel is everywhere you don't see the importance of running basic's for the colors you play? I run 8 Fetch effects that almost always get the basics unless I have to get a dual. There are to many decks and way too many situations where the basic Swamp is critical for me to even start listing them. If you are playing Vindicate's my advice is play the 3x Delta and the Swamp.

The lack of Crucible: I play Ajani in place of Crucible, see my previous explanation of this for full details but in all of the match's where Crucible would have come in Ajani come's in instead. Ajani is also far more more versatile than Crucible and with the existence of Krosan Grip is in my opinion a far better call.

Mana Issue's? I guess you could defy statistic's and have problems dropping lands but it isn't happening to me.

Vindicate: I agree that the 3rd Vindicate could be a 4th EE but honestly EE is almost always a 1 for 1 and typically costs more Mana than EE. Vindicate will stay at 3 in my build because of the existance of Gaddock Teeg and it's capability to deal with opposing Plainswalker's or Lands. See my previous post about losing to Survival because a Teeg resolved and my STP's were Extirpated.

Humility: Really I have to play 2? I prefer not to walk into Krosan Grip for the loss but suit yourself.

Cut Dragon or Decree for Elspeth: No. I already see that it is very apparent we do not see eye to eye but no. That is my advice to everybody. See my very extensive post regarding Elspeth and Decree.

Wish or E Tutor: I don't run anything to tutor for other than Standstill in the MD and Halo in the SB, why again would i include this? I do miss Cunning Wish alot but after very extensive testing you see the list that I feel has the best results against all of Legacy. Wish regrettably is about a turn and a half too slow in my opinion. I strive for the highest level of consistency in my deck and that turn spent Wishing for anything did not in the end outway Vindicate. Not to mention the SB slots opened up by not running Wish have increased my match ups drastically against everything other than Ichorid. Since I don't ever "expect" to beat Ichorid with my build Wish is not the better call in my opinion.

Regress in Landstill? Seriously? Do you have any idea who I am? I have never been one to say I am some great player or any of that. I atribute my wins to not making mistakes and having good luck or not having terrible luck atleast, but that is a ridiculous statement. My lists start from the initial post of the first Landstill thread and continue from there. Excluding the 4 color deck whitch aren't present in this thread the majority of lists on here are derivitave's, either intentionally or not, of lists I have played and won tournaments with.

Single Sensei's Top for consistency? How the hell is one random ass Top going to add consistency to anything? I've already cut a Brainstorm due to what I consider it's subpar role in this deck. I would love to run 2-3 Top's in this deck but I would have to cut Brainstorm entirely and I feel that it would lower the Blue count too much. I don't think you wouldn't be able to cast FOW but I think the cards you would have to pitch instead of Brainstorm could very well cost you the game.

I don't mean to come off like i'm ranting in this post but the statements i'm responding too seem to entirely lack all logic. I typically have all the patience in the world and am more than willing to help other players, even new players who have never won with the deck yet but I don't know how else to respond.

[Citrus-God]

Single Sensei's Top for consistency? How the hell is one random ass Top going to add consistency to anything? I've already cut a Brainstorm due to what I consider it's subpar role in this deck. I would love to run 2-3 Top's in this deck but I would have to cut Brainstorm entirely and I feel that it would lower the Blue count too much. I don't think you wouldn't be able to cast FOW but I think the cards you would have to pitch instead of Brainstorm could very well cost you the game.

What's your recent list? You can PM me you like before or after an event if you like if you don't feel like posting your list in the thread atm.

I've cut a Brainstorm recently for a 3rd FoF. Fact or Fiction, is imo, the most underrated card in Landstill. I won't persuade people to play it because nobody listens to me. It's the shiz, really, but they seem to think making card advantage through Standstills and Brainstorms is enough. Like it even better when they side Standstills out.

At the moment, I'm tampering with the 4 Vindicate list but with a different Sideboard. My SB atm is

4 Counterbalance
3 SDT
3 Runed Halo
2 Ajani Goldmane
3 Extirpate


After some testing, running Counterbalance/Top might be the right move. I figured that my TES match up is getting much worse since their inclusion of Mystical Tutor and Chain of Vapor. I figured the solution is to run Counterbalance Top along with 3 Halos and 3 Extirpates to fight combo. Post-board against combo, it plays like Dreadstill without Dreadnought/Stifle. The game plans are the same though; concentrate on disrupting the opponent as you find Counterbalance/Top. You should be bashing with Factories every turn to make Ad Nauseam less playable after every attack step. My SB against combo is currently

-3 Wrath of God
-3 Decree of Justice
-2 Fact or Fiction
-2 Counterspell
-2 Swords to Plowshares
-1 Vindicate

+3 SDT
+4 Counterbalance
+3 Runed Halo
+3 Extirpate


The reason for keeping 3 Vindicates in is because LD is valuable against TES. Vindicate can also kill Moxes, Xantid Swarms and Vexing Shushers. So your line of play here is to drop Halo on Tendrils, then proceed to drop SDT and Counterbalance to protect Halo or just make a galore of card advantage.

Runed Halo > Meddling Mage mainly because I haven't played against ghetto Armageddon Stax yet. Runed Halo is also good against Team America, Dragon Stompy and Threshold-esque decks.

[konsultant]

Go back a couple of page's and you will find my current list.

I too was in the same argument favoring cutting the 4th Brainstorm for the 3rd FOF. To many people use Brainstorm as a crutch and cast it at the first opportunity, few people utilize the card with it's full power in the mid game. For anybody that plays the deck like I do 3 is more than enough for what you need out of Brainstorm.

I drop Mage on Ad Nauseum and Halo on Tendrils or possably Chant. The Vindicate's definetly stay in the deck, the LD is typically game winning against TES.

With the Chainer's Edict's in the SB I don't need to bring in Halo against anything other than Tendril's. It would still come in against more random stuff like Brainfreeze or sometime's against decks like Skie's that can't get rid of it. I've toyed with Chant over Halo but for the time being it will stay with Halo.

Mage is the critical part of my Loam match ups and is a potential card for any mirror match's I run into. The one drawback that bugs me is the less than overpowering mirror match with this build. So far I have been falling back on play skill in the mirror to take my wins and as of yet I am undefeated in the mirror but my other builds have had much stronger mirror strategies.

[Citrus-God]

I too was in the same argument favoring cutting the 4th Brainstorm for the 3rd FOF. To many people use Brainstorm as a crutch and cast it at the first opportunity, few people utilize the card with it's full power in the mid game. For anybody that plays the deck like I do 3 is more than enough for what you need out of Brainstorm.

I've played match-ups where I cast T1 Brainstorm to draw out Daze against Thrash. If I successfully cast it, I usually tend to try and follow up with a 2nd U-producing land on the table to bluff Counterspell mana. If they do Daze it, then I do the same anyways if I have a U-Land so that I can the opponent feel as though Dazing the BS is a mistake.

I also play T1 Brainstorm against combo so that I can come up with UU on Turn 2. I even make this play against Zoo and other Aggressive decks. Against control mirrors or Thresh, I wouldn't mind being stuck on one U source.


Midgame, Brainstorm is simply amazing. I hate how players never stockpile their Brainstorms, especially with a fetchland on the table. I only cast Brainstorms when I have dead cards in my hand, if I'm looking for a particular card for a particular situation or if I want to capitalize on my chained draw cards.

How do you usually play Brainstorm anyway?



I drop Mage on Ad Nauseum and Halo on Tendrils or possably Chant. The Vindicate's definetly stay in the deck, the LD is typically game winning against TES.

If seems slightly more difficult now because if you drop Mage on Ad Nauseam, then they'll just try and attempt to cast an LED/IGGy loop against you. If you employ this strategy, have you considered putting Duresses or the 4th Mage into your SB?



Mage is the critical part of my Loam match ups and is a potential card for any mirror match's I run into. The one drawback that bugs me is the less than overpowering mirror match with this build. So far I have been falling back on play skill in the mirror to take my wins and as of yet I am undefeated in the mirror but my other builds have had much stronger mirror strategies.

Game 2, you always have the Wasteland + Extirpate play. This makes 4 dead cards in their deck and 4 great cards for your deck. How would you board against the mirror with this build and how would you generally approach the match up post-board?

[konsultant]

I've played match-ups where I cast T1 Brainstorm to draw out Daze against Thrash. If I successfully cast it, I usually tend to try and follow up with a 2nd U-producing land on the table to bluff Counterspell mana. If they do Daze it, then I do the same anyways if I have a U-Land so that I can the opponent feel as though Dazing the BS is a mistake.

I also play T1 Brainstorm against combo so that I can come up with UU on Turn 2. I even make this play against Zoo and other Aggressive decks. Against control mirrors or Thresh, I wouldn't mind being stuck on one U source.


Midgame, Brainstorm is simply amazing. I hate how players never stockpile their Brainstorms, especially with a fetchland on the table. I only cast Brainstorms when I have dead cards in my hand, if I'm looking for a particular card for a particular situation or if I want to capitalize on my chained draw cards.

How do you usually play Brainstorm anyway?




If seems slightly more difficult now because if you drop Mage on Ad Nauseam, then they'll just try and attempt to cast an LED/IGGy loop against you. If you employ this strategy, have you considered putting Duresses or the 4th Mage into your SB?




Game 2, you always have the Wasteland + Extirpate play. This makes 4 dead cards in their deck and 4 great cards for your deck. How would you board against the mirror with this build and how would you generally approach the match up post-board?


I only cast Brainstorm when I need something or if I have cards irrelevent to my match, for example STP and Wrath against TES game one. Other than that I'll hold them for the entire game if I'm never behind. Typically there aren't irrelevent cards in the deck anymore so I don't have the need to replace anything in my hand.

I did try running 4x Duress actually but I wasn't pleased with the actual results. Sounded much better in theory, the problem is that Discard is an anti tempo effect being that you paid mana to do something that doesn't change the game state at all and your opponent while losing card quality is staying on par for card quantity and has zero tempo disruption on thier end. More or less it wasn't really worth it to tap the land and cast Duress, better off with Mage's and Halo's in my experience.

I don't play Extirpate or any Graveyard removal actually, thus the near impossable Ichorid match up. Too be honest though I didn't board in Yard hate against Aggro Loam to begin with so it didn't change anything in that strategy for me.

The mirror has to be one of the most complex match's in all of magic as far as i'm concerned. I can't really summerize but I mostly play a game of poker and try to outplay my opponent at every possable turn until the advantage is so far in my corner that they can't come back. It's far more important who you are playing in the mirror than what exact build they are running, as such your board strategy depends on what kind of player is player the deck more than what to do versus this list. I have the advantage of having a considerable amount of experience with the deck that tends to way heavily in my corner. In most of the mirrors I play I watch my opponents make mistakes and think to myself how I could have won if I were them. The only thing that can outway experience are the couple of relevent bombs in the mirror, ie Crucible or drawing all of your Decree's, but even drawing the nuts can be outplayed sometimes.

[Obfuscate Freely]

How can you guys sit here and jerk each other off over how awesome Brainstorm is, and how great you are at playing it, and still think it's acceptable to play less than four?

Brainstorm is probably the best card in the format, and it isn't even redundant. Put the full playset back into your decks, please.

[sengirvmpr]

I agree with Obfu freely, just play four. Also has anyone thought of SB chalice of the void? Chalice for one seems game over for ad tendrils since it destroys more than half their deck.

[gustha]

While citrus and consultant weel explained why they chose/are choosing to play 3 brainstorm instead of 4, why would it be better for you to play 4 instead of 3? simply because it's always been done so? We've never seen vendilion clique for example in landstill, nor vindicate. But both mossivo and konsultant gave very precise indications for their choices. Now one can agree or disagree, but with reasons, not simply for habit. The point they're questioning is that brainstorm should not be used any time we have an open U, and thus is not an early game card in itself but an amazing mid-late game card. (And it's confusing effect in that part of the game is really more powerful, i.e. when you cast a brainstorm in response to an opponent's key spell to convince him that you're looking for the answer you already got in your hand.) Thus, as for counterspell, say, 3 is the adequate number for a card that we want to play in a different stage of game than the initial turns. For my personal style of play, I prefer casting a t1 brainstorm in my opponent's first EOT, and then save the rest for other moments of the play. Especially, since I'm testing the list with jace, i often find of no use to waste them since I have a constant draw engine on the board, unless obviously i have real shit in hand and a fetch ready on the table. Cutting 1 for something would not be a crime for me too, especially because I am looking for the missing slot for a humility. The blue count on my list would go down to 19 (and less when I side out still/jace), that's still acceptable. But atm, I'm fine with the 4th brainstorm, even if it could be the 4th vindicate or another useful tool such as a monoruned halo.

[rockout]

I agree with Obfu freely, just play four. Also has anyone thought of SB chalice of the void? Chalice for one seems game over for ad tendrils since it destroys more than half their deck.

I know someone tested it a few pages back and said it was amazing against combo. I would quote it for you, but my post would get deleted. I think runed halo and meddling mage is enough to combat combo. You need sb slots that function against multiple decks. Chalice would only come in against combo and I guess mono-red burn while mage and halo can come in against any deck you want.

[Mantis]

Brainstorm is terrible first turn, I do not see why you would want to do that. If you are looking for a spell to play on your opponents first EOT try Opt. Brainstorm is awesome on turn 2 with a Fetchland though. I would not use Brainstorm without a shuffle effect unless the situation really requires me too, but it's not the optimal play by any means. If you prefer casting a Brainstorm in your opponents first EOT that means you are not getting the most out of your cards and you are not maximizing your resource managment. That said, Landstill is a deck that requires the pilot to carefully manage all of the resources as the deck is just not a deck that relies on broken plays. If you mess up small things like this, it will add up and you will find yourself losing almost every match.

[i_need_the_extra_turns]

Well, I want to mention one point to casting brainstorm end of first turn:
I often use this as a setup spell for a 2nd turn standstill, when I dont have a standstill in hand. It really works very fine for me.

[gustha]

First turn brainstorm simply helps me to plan the next 2-3 turns (first turns are the most critical) and see what I can get, and also helps me to set up the manabase for what comes after. Also, helps me to see if I can afford hiding behind my still on turn 2 especially if I know the deck my opponent runs has more factories than me (and usually he becomes the lord of topdeck under my own still). It's exactly the fact that I play 4x that allows me to "spend" one for the set up of the first turns. It's my classic opening move, like my first pawn moving, say. Opt doesn't do the same thing, really not, nor ponder. The other 3 brainstorms are saved and played carefully, that's why I said that, in fact, 4 brainstorm are not necessary. But i like to open like this. Obv, this is a reasoning on the play, if I'm on the draw i keep open for snare and counterspell, there's no need to say it. Against goblins i keep open for sword, etc etc etc. Yeah, I would like it were an instant duress, but you know...:laugh:

[Viscosity]

Brainstorm is terrible first turn, I do not see why you would want to do that. If you are looking for a spell to play on your opponents first EOT try Opt. Brainstorm is awesome on turn 2 with a Fetchland though. I would not use Brainstorm without a shuffle effect unless the situation really requires me too, but it's not the optimal play by any means. If you prefer casting a Brainstorm in your opponents first EOT that means you are not getting the most out of your cards and you are not maximizing your resource managment. That said, Landstill is a deck that requires the pilot to carefully manage all of the resources as the deck is just not a deck that relies on broken plays. If you mess up small things like this, it will add up and you will find yourself losing almost every match.

You're right the deck requires skill to play and that one should consider other options using brainstorm. But you are completely WRONG about brainstorm being bad first turn. If you had ever played landstill decks for any length of time, you would realize that first turn brainstorm is often the best play (period).

[mossivo1986]

You're right the deck requires skill to play and that one should consider other options using brainstorm. But you are completely WRONG about brainstorm being bad first turn. If you had ever played landstill decks for any length of time, you would realize that first turn brainstorm is often the best play (period).

Though I am noone to disagree with brainstorm/ ponder period I would argue that 2nd turn standstill break on your opponents turn is a much stronger play then 1st turn brainstorm :).

Or even a 4th turn rot opponents turn FOF 4-1 split where you take the four would be stronger :).

[Mantis]

You're right the deck requires skill to play and that one should consider other options using brainstorm. But you are completely WRONG about brainstorm being bad first turn. If you had ever played landstill decks for any length of time, you would realize that first turn brainstorm is often the best play (period).
You are just wasting your resources. Like I said in my post, sometimes you have to spend your Brainstorm turn 1 to hit your landdrop or you need to dig for FoW. Only advise I give is not to use your Brainstorm turn 1 because you always do, it's not always the right play and in fact is a mistake a lot of the time.

[matelml]

You're right the deck requires skill to play and that one should consider other options using brainstorm. But you are completely WRONG about brainstorm being bad first turn. If you had ever played landstill decks for any length of time, you would realize that first turn brainstorm is often the best play (period).
:rolleyes: :eyebrow: :eek:
Please explain why Brainstorm is best on the first turn. I don't understand. I always believed Brainstorm becomes better the longer you wait. On the first turn it basically says: put the top 3 cards in any order and draw a card. If you wait some time, you can shuffle away the worst 2 cards instead of one, with a bigger chance of being able to shuffle at all. Also, on the first turn there is a good chance you don't know what you are up against, which mans you have less info about which cards are weaker and stronger in your hand. Finally: later on you have more info about how many lands you want to keep in your hand and if you have redundant copies of functionally similar cards.

[Viscosity]

thought I let you UW fans know that it got first place last night in a very competitive meta. This was the first night I've played my new decklist and it has been consistently better than other landstills I've played with.

I finally got registered on this site. yeesh! Anyway, I've been playing magic since 6th grade, and I'm 26, so however long that is. Mostly just FNM with people who net deck legacy and play the best decks they can. I prefer to play control or ridiculous combo when that is available (pandanought, worldgorger, foodchain, etc.) Best playing result was 3rd in a 550 person extended PTQ.

I've been a fan of standstill since it came out. I remember immediately making a deck around it with manadrain, disk, standstill, cloud of faeries, mishra factory, faerie conclave, etc. It would normally place top 3 in local events.

I'm going to post my current deck list after Chicago GP. You'll see familiar cards, but the devil is in the details and the exact card counts. It is tuned to the net-deck meta and winning a lot of play-testing but needs more testing to expose unrealized weaknesses. I can’t decide if I will even play it in Chicago. LONG GAMES SUCK IN BIG EVENTS! Draws, tired brain, ugh. But I’d rather not play against it, so I won't post it until then.

Tournament report on the 20 person legacy event at Battleforge Games in Austin, (last night 1-16 - 4-round Swiss):

1) UW - Landstill
2) Its the Fear
3) Death and Taxes
4) Thresh
5) Its the Fear
6) Enchantress
7) Survival ? (<---- not sure about 7th and 8th)
8) Thresh ?

Interesting Meta last night. No goblins, no ichorid. And Death and Taxes trounced both good thresh decks.

Round One: 2-0 vs 4-Color Deedstill:
Game One: I protect an early Elspeth with a FoW and carry her to a quick win with some fat decrees.
Game Two: His counterspells stop my crucible, elspeth, and FoF. He casts FoF and I get scared. We get into top deck mode. He draws into edicts, swords, mass-removal. I draw into Decrees, standstills, FoF, stifles... and I win because edicts and swords are dead vs big decrees.

Round Two: "2 - 1" vs my brother playing Enchantress:
Game One: I counter his first enchantress. He drops enchantress' presence and city of solitude. I play Elspeth, he O-rings her. I play EE for 3. He plays Karmic Justice! I ended up popping EE and losing lands but I draw into academy ruins and more land for a recurring EE. I throw stifles at draw effects where I can and manage to slow him down enough that the flying soldier and mishra's factory get the job done.
Game Two: He does nothing first 2 turns. I play Meddling Mage on enchantress' presence. He plays 3rd turn Choke! I manage to squeeze out an elspeth under choke. And I immediately start swinging with a 5/5 flying mage and a factory. He has almost locked me down, if not for non-island land. This game is very close. The final turn, I play another Meddling mage on O-ring. He is at 1 life and draws an enchantresses presence, he can't play it so he scoops. We looked and saw that if he had been able to play that card, he would of drawn into the nuts, and would have stopped my threats and won the subsequent turn. The choke never left the board.

We report it as 2-1 since we share our collection and hate playing each other in tournaments.

Round Three: 1-1-1 vs It’s The Fear
Game One: like most games, this centers around Elspeth. We get into a long epic battle as he tries to kill my Elspeth with a Goyf and Etched Oracle. Because I play cards like decree and swords to help protect her, she ends up making everything invincible and winning the game with subsequent tokens.
Game Two: Another Epic fight. He manages to take down an Elspeth and establish a 3 card per turn draw engine with Etched Oracle. I scoop to hurry to third game.
Game 3: We go to time. At the final turn, I had cleared his board with EEs, dropped an Elspeth, had 3 soldiers in play from a decree, and a FoF to play. I considered the win locked-in. But a draw it was. He finished 2nd.

Round 4: 2 - 0 vs GU Survival w/ Thresh?- mongoose , goyf, witness etc.
Game One: I stifle a fetchland and waste two non-basics. Wrath of God and EE for 2 are the key players. FoF and big decrees seal it up. He is never able to really use Survival.
Game Two: He drops survival and starts playing threats. 2 mongoose and a goyf get Wrathed out. On a later turn, the top deck of the night allows me to play an EE and kill 2 goyfs and the survival. Mass soldier Decrees win. If this deck had a discard package I would've been scared.

So the actual games for the night went 8-1 (counting the draw as a win, which it would've been).

A couple comments... If it wasn't obvious, Elspeth is the bee's knees. She is an absolute bomb in the deck. Decree often wins the control match-up. EE is the most critical removal in the deck. A pithing needle on EE spells trouble, but most people make the mistake of naming Elspeth. So I guess 2 pithing needles is BIG trouble. A pithing needle turns out to be a must counter if you think they are going to name EE. Other untested weaknesses may include: ichorid, burn.deck, goblins, ANT. But this build is new for me, so I'll test those MUs this week.

In conclusion, I’ve played with dreadstill, 4c deedstill, UWr landstill, UWb landstill, UWg landstill. IMO: UW landstill is the most solid. I run a couple off color mana sources for EEs but that is all they do.

[Bardo]

I know someone tested it a few pages back and said it was amazing against combo. I would quote it for you, but my post would get deleted. I think runed halo and meddling mage is enough to combat combo. You need sb slots that function against multiple decks. Chalice would only come in against combo and I guess mono-red burn while mage and halo can come in against any deck you want.

I run 3-4 Chalices in my LS sideboard and they come in against more than combo and Burn. You can see a list that T8'd a 118 player tournament in Germany here (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=22662). (Thanks for the heads-up Agent Funk.) Chalices are also good against almost any kind of aggro-control deck (including Goyf Sligh), though I definitely like Chalices in U/b/g LS better since that deck doesn't run Swords to Plowshares.

MMage and Halo are probably just as good vs. storm combo, though they take up more slots.

[TeKo]

Viscosity: already posted your list?

[Viscosity]

:rolleyes: :eyebrow: :eek:
Please explain why Brainstorm is best on the first turn. I don't understand. I always believed Brainstorm becomes better the longer you wait. On the first turn it basically says: put the top 3 cards in any order and draw a card. If you wait some time, you can shuffle away the worst 2 cards instead of one, with a bigger chance of being able to shuffle at all. Also, on the first turn there is a good chance you don't know what you are up against, which mans you have less info about which cards are weaker and stronger in your hand. Finally: later on you have more info about how many lands you want to keep in your hand and if you have redundant copies of functionally similar cards.

edit: reading back through, want to make sure no misunderstandings. The original comment said that brainstorm was horrible first turn. I was saying that his statement is incorrect. And no one should believe that they should never play brainstorm on first turn. be sure not to miss the "often" in my statement.

I'm not saying you should cast it first turn in every situation. I'm saying it is OFTEN the best thing to do. I also agree that HYPOTHETICALLY, there are better uses for brainstorm. Like removing two bad cards. But in practice, it is often the best play given the cards you drew.

Here are some reasons..

1) DECK THINNING. it starts digging. One card deeper immediately, two cards deeper if you are able to fetchland out one bad card.
2) it does SOMETHING first turn to affect the game and actually get into cards that do things other than play with the top of the deck. I'll generally stifle a fetch / or sword a threat instead of brainstorm, but if no fetch was played, then cast it.
3) it allows the casting of standstill or EE for two on second turn
4) Later in the game, WHEN YOU DO KNOW what they are playing, you will use your subsequently drawn brainstorms to remove dead cards. If your deck has so many dead cards that you cant draw enough brainstorms, then you need to revise the deck.

Sure there are situations where holding the brainstorm is better. say you need white mana that you dont have, you may wait to be one card deeper, especially if you dont have a fetch in hand. Or perhaps you have 2 cards that you know are dead and a fetch in hand. Then wait.

In practice, I find brainstorm being cast on turn one to be the best choice well over 50% of the time. That also means it is the best choice to NOT play it over 40% of the time. Probably the most powerful reason to cast it is that you will draw another one later (for removal of dead cards), and casting first turn give you 10 cards to choose from for your turn two play.

[Viscosity]

Viscosity: already posted your list?

after chicago i will. Or maybe you can read it in the top 8 deck lists from the event. No just kidding :smile: . Like I said, I may not even play landstill, ad it is very likely i wont top 8, hahah

[Viscosity]

You are just wasting your resources. Like I said in my post, sometimes you have to spend your Brainstorm turn 1 to hit your landdrop or you need to dig for FoW. Only advise I give is not to use your Brainstorm turn 1 because you always do, it's not always the right play and in fact is a mistake a lot of the time.

I agree that it is a mistake a lot of the time. I think we agree on the uses of brainstorm. but you posted the statement "brainstorm turn one is terrible," and I can't agree with you there. Brainstorm is always good, pretty much however you use it. It is better than cycling!


Oh and I run 3 brainstorms.. Flame on.

[Citrus-God]

I created an experimental list without Brainstorms and it was amazing. The problem I had with the list was actually because I couldn't keep many opening hands. So I went back to Brainstorms. I cut a Brainstorm for a 3rd FoF because raw card advantage was what I needed.

Brainstorm on the first turn is strictly for set-up or Daze baiting so that you can resolve Standstill and/or make a land drop on your second turn.

[Mister Agent]

Against storm combo I'd rather run Chalice of the void. You can shut off substantially more resources with a 0 cc chalice as oppose to a 2 cc runed halo/meddling mage. Then you can just dismantle their other resources with wasteland and/or counterbalance(referring to Bardo's UWG List).

As for the runed halo and meddling mage combination. I find them effective since I see them as supplements that can fill in gaps for sour game ones.

[Viscosity]

I created an experimental list without Brainstorms and it was amazing. The problem I had with the list was actually because I couldn't keep many opening hands. So I went back to Brainstorms. I cut a Brainstorm for a 3rd FoF because raw card advantage was what I needed.

Brainstorm on the first turn is strictly for set-up or Daze baiting so that you can resolve Standstill and/or make a land drop on your second turn.

3rd FoF is exactly what I did too. I think you simply MUST run them though. Many situations such as being mana flooded turn a brainstorm into ancestral recall.

[mossivo1986]

Just fyi I top 8'd a local tourney going 3-2-1 losing to armageddon stax twice.

[rockout]

Tournament report please. How did you lose to staxs?

[raharu]

Tournament report please. How did you lose to staxs?
Very easily.

[rockout]

Very easily.

I was hoping for a more in depth response than what is written above. If they push through a t1 trinisphere followed by crucible + wasteland, then yes, you can lose easily. I would love a tournament report joel to see what happened. I don't consider it a terrible match up for landstill.

[raharu]

I was hoping for a more in depth response than what is written above. If they push through a t1 trinisphere followed by crucible + wasteland, then yes, you can lose easily. I would love a tournament report joel to see what happened. I don't consider it a terrible match up for landstill.
I've always thought that the match went something to the effect that Smokestack blows up lands, and Landstill doesn't play many other permanents outside of lands, so landstill doesn't really get to do much. At the very least, they have Crucible superiority. I've always thought it was a rather lopsided match in Staxx's favor, but I don't actually know that, and that thought is based on hearsay and bullshit theory, so :3

[mossivo1986]

First match I mull'd both starting hands to five and didn't see brainstorm/ ponder. I never broke through his first wave of lockdown pieces and it really effected my gameplan. Needless to say It was horrid. Counterspell is deffinately a must in that matchup.

In the t8 I played the same guy and even though my hands were better I still lost to a resolved armageddon after stax. This leads me to believe that the matchup is very dependant on you dropping repetitive forces with your opponent breaking your standstills or counterspelling the crap out of them. I never laid a meddling mage on stax or armageddon so that also REALLY effected my gameplan. Overall I can deffinately see how running vindicate/ wasteland would greatly improve this matchup, but outside of that its still going to be only 50-50. The real key as it seems to me is perniscious deed. I remember when I played 4c this matchup was hella easy, and I really never feared anything.

Overall I realized that the model I currently running needs additional blue sources as I just don't see enough. I think i'll be cutting the vendillion for an island again and moving on of the plains as a polluted delta "I think"

4 flooded
4 tundra
1 polluted delta
1 underground
1 scrubland
3 mishra
1 tolaria west
1 dustbowl
1 academy ruins
2 plains
4 island

That to me seems a we bit better on the base, but I think I need to do additional testing with the 1 runed halo in the main. Although it can be incredibly usefull it can also be a big pain as its still difficult to get rid of challice which CAN be a problem but on paper shouldnt be.

The other matches I played in the day were 4c aggro with tribal flames and gae's might with the regular package of burn and creatures. I 2-0'd that matchup with first hand being pretty insane and second hand getting all 3 halo's naming lightning bolt/ tribal flames/ lightning helix. There wasn't much he could do outside of krosan grip's and vindicates, but he only gripped my humility which was fine as the deck had more then enough disruption to keep him off balance.
fyi responding to jotun's grunt ability by stacking relic's second ability= P.I.M.P play.

I also fought 2 T.A. which using maindeck relic was deffinately the right choice. Also Runed halo was excellent as noted, and suprisingly I used dustbowl to some effect against both decks. all together I finished 4-1 against the 2 and I fealt very confidant with this model.

Also in the meta were 4c loam, gobos, life.dec, ww, suicide black, fae goodstuff control, and some other interesting decks.

Final thoughts:

Every time I go to this perticular tournament it doesn't REALLY matter what I bring as I face a matchup 3 round and 1st round of t8 its the same matchup as my 3rd round and its always pretty unfavorable hand wise.

last time it was burn "I didnt have ajani and I didnt see cunning wish."

This time it was arm stax "there were 2 copies of this deck at the tourney" and I didn't see blue sources/ force/ or meddling mage. Not to mention it would have been really nice to play a standstill :(.

So the modo of the night was

"when I see untapped blue sources/ more then one. I win, when I don't I lose."

Overall I had a good time and for 20$ each the prize support was truly shitty. getting rid of a set of sea drakes and a set of savannahs with over 20 people in attendance. Really depressing.

anyways ttyl

-Joel.

[Citrus-God]

I was hoping for a more in depth response than what is written above. If they push through a t1 trinisphere followed by crucible + wasteland, then yes, you can lose easily. I would love a tournament report joel to see what happened. I don't consider it a terrible match up for landstill.

There's also Armageddon. They recover much faster after an Armageddon compared to you.

[Omega]

the fact that stax decks are almost not played can be ignored when building a deck. However, if it is a local meta concern, i would go with Crucible. If you can get one down on turn three, you should survive their Geddon/Waste+crucible and smokestack

vindicate, deed are cards that can also answer STax
Robert

[mossivo1986]

the fact that stax decks are almost not played can be ignored when building a deck. However, if it is a local meta concern, i would go with Crucible. If you can get one down on turn three, you should survive their Geddon/Waste+crucible and smokestack

vindicate, deed are cards that can also answer STax
Robert

I was just thinking that instead of running the funky list I have been as of late that i'll switch to a more standardized list. The problem is that the armageddon stax players typicly don't bring the same thing twice, but its ok because I realisticly couldn't win that matchup with the list I had. But other then that I did pretty well, so I was happy.

[Viscosity]

I did a little more play testing. Won 3 - 0 vs stacks and 5 - 1 to vial-goblins.

The stacks games were a little scarier, but goblins was easy. I played around a first turn trinisphere 2 of 3 games. Elspeth > smokestack. EE > chalice. One thing i didn't face was Suppression Field. That is a common stacks sideboard card and is a HUGE problem.

[Ludwitch]

Hi all, I am pretty new to Legacy and I am thinking about putting together a Landstill list. I saw an interesting list somewhere and was wondering what you think about it, since I did not see anything like it here. The list includes Isochronscepter, Orim's Chant and Fire/Ice. Is this a viable option?

[rockout]

One thing i didn't face was Suppression Field. That is a common stacks sideboard card and is a HUGE problem.

I agree that Supression Field is a huge problem if it lands within turns 1-2.

@Ludwitch: The problem with Isochron Scepter decks is the deck doesn't function well on it's own. If you don't see a scepter, then your deck is just draw, counters and removal with possibly mishra's factory as your win condition. You tend to give up a lot of the versatility that a standard landstill build has in terms of wrath, elspeth, eternal dragon, standstill and so on for a chance, game 1, to lock out your opponent but with so many people running grip it seems like a lost deck to me.

[Viscosity]

Hi all, I am pretty new to Legacy and I am thinking about putting together a Landstill list. I saw an interesting list somewhere and was wondering what you think about it, since I did not see anything like it here. The list includes Isochronscepter, Orim's Chant and Fire/Ice. Is this a viable option?

Scepter can be decent in other decks. But i am not a fan in landstill. As mentioned, it is too weak to removal and results in card disadvantage. Additionally, landstill decks need to run mass removal in EE or deed, which both kill your own isochron.

In addition to the obvious card draw, landstill can create virtual card advantage by not playing permanents that can be targeted easily (standstill, elspeth, EE)

[ChiiMagic]

Ok, I designed the scepter landstill deck that the starcity article was about, and have piloted it to countless top 8's and tournament wins. The scepter strategy gives you soo many free wins game 1 and crushed the landstill mirror by providing devastating card advantage by letting you use all your spells as many times as you want. You guys are obviously being very closed minded and obviously haven't played with the deck at all. Scepter is great in landstill decks, even though it has no obvios synergy with standstill other than the latter being used to draw you into the scepters and spells. It is just a different win condition or board control element like your lists probably play Elpeths or humility. I say go for it if you're new to landstill, just be aware that this version of the deck is very hard to play well, and near impossible to play perfectly.
- John Knapp

[Viscosity]

Thanks for the reply John. How did you deal with smart UG thresh players running grip on the side. It seems to me, that against a good thresh player, the straight card disadvantage of grip vs scepter would be undesirable. Scepter is also weak vs counterbalance. I'm not saying it isn't good. I'm just trying to explore it completely. Just based on your experience, I'll play test it some more.

Do you ever board out the scepters? What other kill conditions do you run?

[ChiiMagic]

Honestly, against that matchup you don't really care whether your scepters stick or not. The entire match is about finding your EE and your academy ruins. If you can use your scepters to buy you time to do so then that's great, but your gameplan is not based around it. Against threshold I like to use the deck more so as a pure landstill deck and crush their mongoose with EE and STP their Tarmogoyfs. They can almost never beat EE + Academy ruins.
I agree that counterbalance can be a real thorn in your side, but once you find you EE or Nevinyrral's Disk, it CANNOT keep you down forever. You will eventually break of, and they will lose after that.
I'm glad you asked about boarding out scepters, because it happens more often than you would think by looking at the deck. Against counterbalance decks, you do want to board out at least 1 and some number of orims chants, because if they land counterbalance before your scepter they will trump you with it. But then it's easy to switch into a landstill strategy until you can remove it.
Thanks for being open about the deck, and definitely ask anymore questions you might want to. I'm just sitting in genetics lecture and would love to occupy my time with this instead. LOL.

[Viscosity]

I don't know what we'll see in Chicago, but with the amount of thresh and Its The Fear in my meta, I'm a little skeptical about running maindeck scepters. I realize they result in first game win against many decks, but any deck that loses to a a scetper/chant I would argue is a sub-par deck that should be beaten with the normal landstill plan (exception may be enchantress, which bends over to Orim's chant). I'm going to test the build to develop an opinion from experience.

You run Decrees right?

[ChiiMagic]

Nope, no decrees. If you want to look over the whole list, go to the starcity article by kevin bindwanger last week.

[swarm187]

I actually started building Landstill trying to encorporate Teferi/Chant lockdown, but you end up having to take too much out in order to fit the necessary pieces.

What's the general consensus for the splash here? Does green work better than red? Is black just as viable for hand disruption? If there's a current theory I would like to hear it. Obviously the differences in metagames will dictate alot of the answer, but I'd like to know if there's a generally accepted "best fit" for the third color.

[mossivo1986]

Im not trying to flame, but I don't see how isochron sceptor works in a meta full of,

stifle
krosan grip
counterspell
perniscious deed
Engineered explosives
force of will
daze
vindicate

ect. ect.

Now granted I understand how it COULD work, but if you look at what chant becomes if sceptor doesn't resolve its basicly a fog, which seems terrible regardless.

The other thing I would like to point out is that no stick "sceptor chant" was a solid deck in extended for a while because of the synergy with teferi and gigantic cunning wish board it ran, as well as the fact that the format is generally slower then that of legacys. The cards generally speaking are of a completely different power level. No sticks downfall however was that it cannot handle decks that can get around the chant effect "namely anything running grip".

That said im not trying to flame you I'm just making a strong argument of why it won't work.

Yes I do understand you may have numerous top 8's and I would like to see the metagame you played in ect, so if you could provide it would be incredibly insightfull.

thank you for your time
-Joel

[ChiiMagic]

I think we're having a misunderstanding about how the scepters are played and the role they fill. While I can agree that an orims chant without a scepter usually isn't the greatest, but it definitely has uses. Pushing a crucible through in the mirror match is crucial, casting it in response to a dreadnaught is funny, and randomly destroying ANT or belcher is awesome. Against many decks though, especially games 2,3, orims chant osntthe spell you want on you first stick. Something like counterspell or fire/ice are must answer situations. If they can answer those, recurring your sticks with academy ruins and slipping more devastating spells on them. Brainstorm on a scepter is ridiculous if you've ever seen it.
I really play in diverse metas all over the Midwest. The last really large tourney I played in before legacy worlds ( I went 5-2 drop before the last round) was the legacy side event at GP Indy where I came in like 5th out of like 120 or so. I play against Team America, Threshold, Goblins, 43Land, Landstill, Monowhite stax, Aggro Loam, Faerie Still, and pretty much anything you can think of.
-John

[Viscosity]

I'm going to step out of the Scepter discussion to talk about another problem I'm having... Merfolk.

Who here has experience against these new merfolk decks? What do you do to win? I've been doing some play testing and the match-up is strongly in Merfolk's favor.

I realize though, that Merfolk is the sort of deck that is built to beat the blue based control decks running around. And it does lose to things such as burn.deck and ichorid.

[gustha]

Basically it's the evil version of gobbo with fow. There are many version of merfolks, as I remember. Some play gobbo-style (but run mutavault instead of rishadan port, and that's pretty good for us): get your hands on basics, try to fow the 1st turn vial. Sword: lord of atlantis, merrow rejeerey. Save your counters for the t5 wrath (to avoid daze) and then it's reduced to topdeck, go on with EE+ruins. Obv if humility resolves you're in a good position: they generrally don't have bouncers MD (maybe just 1 rushing river), and monoU lists do not offer artifact/enchantment hate. They do run stifle so beware: some decks run phyrexian dreadnought too! (and some play goyf...) Post side should be easier depending on your sideboard, 3 engineered plague work very well ^^

[Viscosity]

the version I've been playing against is mono-blue with stifle, fow, daze, aether vial, standstill, etc. The problem I'm having is when they are on the play, I can't seem to get established before taking lethal damage. If they are on the play, it is hard to stop the first turn vial. Daze or FoW to match my own FoW and I pretty much lose to Aether Vial.

So far, I've only won when my hand had 2-3 swords and a wrath. The recurring EE is nice, but sort of slow.

I think I need to make room for the 3xplagues on the board.

Another problem is the fact that they play a first turn (forespike) critter and follow it up with wastes and muta-vault. All of which make playing a standstill an iffy situation. So far, when that deck plays its own standstills, I end up having to pop them, which totally blows.

I just wanted to add that cycling a decree in the face of a bunch of islandwalkers really sucks!

[rockout]

@Viscosity: If you can keep lord of atlantis off the board, you should have no problem dropping standstills. I would drop a standstill in the face of a 1/1 curse catcher because I don't fear 1 damage a turn with daze attached to it. If they play a standstill, then an optimal play is brainstorming at their end step to force them to draw 3 and discard three. It's not always the best play since you don't want to give the aggro deck 3 cards, but sometimes you need to tap out on your turn to play threats and bombs. Main thing: keep lord and vial off the board and you should win pretty easily. Don't forget that they run back to basics.

@Chiimagic: I have played scepter chant before and I don't think it's any better than a typical build of landstill. You take out a lot of your removal and add in an artifact that requires a lot of main deck slots to be good. For example, you have to run 3-4 chants, 3-4 scepters, 3-4 fire/ice, and maybe e tutor. I'm sure stealing a game 1 is fun from time to time but I know I would just drop an early ee @ 2 before I got scepter locked. Either way, I can see you swaying my judgment.

[raharu]

@rockout: Let me ask you two questions: A) have you read the Star City Games article over Scepter-Still? You might want to do that, because there are a few things that might clear up any fuzziness in your logic regarding the Scepter list. B) I won't say that Scepter landstill is better than a traditional UWx list, but is it worse? I don't think so. It has another resource base outside of the draw engine, Wraths, EEs, and Crucibles in Scepter that allow it to out-grind other decks (namely control) if you can keep the scepter for a while, and in game one it will most likely put you far ahead.

Also, in regards to the "yeah, Scepter-Chant takes some game ones, but K-Grip, etc" line of logic (in general), have you thought about the fact that most games don't get to finish Game 2? So, basically you're saying "yeah, it'll completely steal some games just on the back of Scepter-Chant, but... I still don't like it for not much reason." Does that sound right to you?

[Serbitar]

Don't know how fast you guys playing, but I have played a lot of game threes with Landstill. You absolutely want to be able to to this, because a lot a matchups would be nigh unwinnable preside.

Especially if you happen to land Scepter-Chant and your opponent has no outs whatsoever (read: you win by it) it will be a quick game 1.

[Citrus-God]

Im not trying to flame, but I don't see how isochron sceptor works in a meta full of,

stifle
krosan grip
counterspell
perniscious deed
Engineered explosives
force of will
daze
vindicate

ect. ect.

Different match-ups call for different imprints. Stifle and Krosan Grips are a valid argument here. Pernicious Deeds, EE and Vindicate shouldn't resolve if it's, let's say, a Control match up. Chances are, you will probably imprint a Counterspell here.

Daze and FoW aren't very unique; you have to deal with it no matter what.


Now granted I understand how it COULD work, but if you look at what chant becomes if sceptor doesn't resolve its basicly a fog, which seems terrible regardless.


Who said you had to play Chant?



The other thing I would like to point out is that no stick "sceptor chant" was a solid deck in extended for a while because of the synergy with teferi and gigantic cunning wish board it ran, as well as the fact that the format is generally slower then that of legacys. The cards generally speaking are of a completely different power level. No sticks downfall however was that it cannot handle decks that can get around the chant effect "namely anything running grip".

No-Stick got it's name by using Scepter to gain card advantage, not achieve the lock. Scepter Chant wants to achieve the lock.

Many players at the time saw the Chant as weak or unnecessary when an imprinted Fire // Ice or Counterspell can basically serve a similar purpose in the same match up; the difference obviously is that Counterspell on a stick can protect itself and Fire // Ice probably drew you a ton of cards before it got answered therefore helping you either break even or gain immense card advantage making the removal of stick not matter anymore. That purpose allows No Stick to be good post-board. So they packed Orim's Chant in the Sideboard instead as a Wish target to steal Game 1s.

[ChiiMagic]

The time constraint issue has really never been a problem for me, but I play really fast with the scepter version of the deck. Landing a scepter with a chant basically buys you enough time to kill, because it really takes away their ability to think about whatever moronic plays they would usually. From there on, the game usually is chant you; draw go; draw, hit with conclave, go; until their life hits zero. Just like when playing any other version of landstill, the amount of games you do not finish is entirely up to you, and your skill with the deck.

[Viscosity]

@rockout: Let me ask you two questions: A) have you read the Star City Games article over Scepter-Still? You might want to do that, because there are a few things that might clear up any fuzziness in your logic regarding the Scepter list. B) I won't say that Scepter landstill is better than a traditional UWx list, but is it worse? I don't think so. It has another resource base outside of the draw engine, Wraths, EEs, and Crucibles in Scepter that allow it to out-grind other decks (namely control) if you can keep the scepter for a while, and in game one it will most likely put you far ahead.

Also, in regards to the "yeah, Scepter-Chant takes some game ones, but K-Grip, etc" line of logic (in general), have you thought about the fact that most games don't get to finish Game 2? So, basically you're saying "yeah, it'll completely steal some games just on the back of Scepter-Chant, but... I still don't like it for not much reason." Does that sound right to you?

Theories are nice, but application is what matters. I could be totally wrong but I would argue that yes, it is worse. Too often have I played scepter and it turned into card disadvantage in the control mirror, plus loss of tempo.

I think the best and only real way to back that statement up would be to play scepter version and non-scepter version in back-to back testing against at least 10 unique meta-game decks.

Maybe I'll do that this weekend. If it is better, then I'll play scepter.

Kevin, who wrote that starcity article, will be at the tournament tonight. So I'll pester him about it tonight. Maybe I'll be lucky and we'll play each other ;)

[ChiiMagic]

Well obviously I'm going to argue that it is better in my opinion, simply because so many decks in the format are completely unprepared to deal with an Isochron Scepter on the board, no matter what card you imprint onto it. It is almost never card disadvantage if you play it properly. Game 1, there will be no way to effectively deal with a Scepter with Orim's Chant, or a Scepter with Counterspell on it. Both of these protect themselves from any cards that you may have in the main deck to deal with them. Games 2 and 3 your play obviously has to shift away from just dominating the game with a single Isochron scepter, and move toward controlling the game through straight up cards in your hand via standstill, to combat any scepter hate. If they bring in K grips for your Scepters, which they definitely will if they play green, then side 1-2 out and resolve a Standstill and smack them around with a Mishra's Factory. I think that the ability to shift game plans with this deck gives it a better game against the format than a traditional Landstill build where your only option is to try to slow the game down with annoying enchantments and STP's. It also allows you to make aggressive plays that have benefits in soooo many matchups. Isochron Scepter + Orim's Chant not only SCREWS ANT, Belcher, and combo, but it also serves as a Wrath of God effect in the sense that it completely nullifies all of the creatures on the board. I believe that the versatility, and the fact that a lot of people are completely unaware that this is a deck is a ridiculous advantage against the field, and a reason to play the deck. I do not want you to think that I am totally against traditional landstill decks, because I'm definitely not. I played them before I made the Scepter list, I even played around with them just when I wanted to change things up. But I always came back to the Scepter list because I had more favorable results with it. Also I ran it a few years back when I was a little younger and a little worse at Legacy at GP Columbus and crushed through day 1 with an X-2 record with only one bye. It has soo many good matches against the field, and even against crap rogue strategies. I would be hard pressed to play anything else at GP Chicago.

[HAVE HEART]

I have been testing UW Landstill and found that there does not exist that one power card where if it resolves, then I automatically win. It seems that even if I am in control, I can still punt the game away with poor play. Is this a typical Landstill experience or am I not seeing something?

[swarm187]

so,
does anyone playing a Isochron/Chant variation of this deck have an updated list? I'd like to see what you're taking out and what you're keeping to fit Scepters, Chants, and any other cards that fit that strategy.

personally, I love Scepter/Chant, but I wasn't thinking about it being viable in Legacy...at least not as much as it was in Extended. as I wrote before, I feel like you have to take too much out in order to fit the necessary Scepters and Chants. please, if someone has a list, post that stuff!

[Serbitar]

I have been testing UW Landstill and found that there does not exist that one power card where if it resolves, then I automatically win. It seems that even if I am in control, I can still punt the game away with poor play. Is this a typical Landstill experience or am I not seeing something?

I think this is not Landstill specific but hold true for any deck you will pick up. Poor play (and a good opponent) will always cause you game losses, no matter what card you resolved before. But cards that generally lead to you winning are obviously in Landstill, too. Like Standstill and Humility.

[mossivo1986]

I have been testing UW Landstill and found that there does not exist that one power card where if it resolves, then I automatically win. It seems that even if I am in control, I can still punt the game away with poor play. Is this a typical Landstill experience or am I not seeing something?

Personally I've found it awefully tough to lose games with humility/ and or elspeth on the table.

[ChiiMagic]

I'm gonna have to agree that it's pretty easy to punt when playing landstill. I play so much, that I can play at a very fast pace and make all the right decisions, but if you are unfamiliar with your list or make a small mistake, I think landstill is one of the most unforgiving decks in legacy.

[Citrus-God]

I'm gonna have to agree that it's pretty easy to punt when playing landstill. I play so much, that I can play at a very fast pace and make all the right decisions, but if you are unfamiliar with your list or make a small mistake, I think landstill is one of the most unforgiving decks in legacy.

Really? I remember back in the old UW Landstill days, people said it was one of the easiest decks to pilot at the time. Many even said it was an auto-pilot deck.

Personally, it doesn't make a difference for me, because I switch back and forth between auto-pilot and actually playing depending on my match-up, the player I'm facing and/or if I'm in the Top 8.

[NQN]

If you play it a lot, it´s easy. But especially the sideboard requires some training to switch the right stuff.

[mossivo1986]

Really? I remember back in the old UW Landstill days, people said it was one of the easiest decks to pilot at the time. Many even said it was an auto-pilot deck.

Personally, it doesn't make a difference for me, because I switch back and forth between auto-pilot and actually playing depending on my match-up, the player I'm facing and/or if I'm in the Top 8.

My play online tends to be better just because I can see all the math in front of me vs IRL where it takes alot more time to do a simple count of ones deck. Plus theres always some pressure that I put on myself in real life, but thats apart of not being apart of enough tournaments to get used to it.

[Viscosity]

Chii - You make some good points about the shifting of strategies. The most attractive being that the stick would handle rogue trash. I think one disconnect we are experiencing is that my landstill deck-list is unique. I can't think of another landstill variant posted on this site that I would play over the scepter list. I just like my version better ;)


I'm gonna have to agree that it's pretty easy to punt when playing landstill. I play so much, that I can play at a very fast pace and make all the right decisions, but if you are unfamiliar with your list or make a small mistake, I think landstill is one of the most unforgiving decks in legacy.

I agree. I find the trickiest part to be deciding what to FoW. Sometimes I have a foW and they play a threat. A lot of the time it is better to trust my deck will draw an answer than to blow my counter on a simply removed threat. Sometimes it works to hold the Force and draw into wrath/EE. Sometimes it doesn't.

I placed 4th last night because I made the royal mistake of being too greedy. It was vs Fairy stompy. I won first game easily. But second game he cast pithing needle. Instead of FoW pitching brainstorm, I decided to brainstorm to search for a different blue card and dig some more. I didn't hit a blue card so the needle got through, naming EE. I then draw into 2 EEs and he proceeded to kill me with a bunch of things that cost 3. I even had an academy (slaps self).

[rockout]

Back to Back top 8s with UWb landstill. I just feel like I can't lose when I can keep my opening 7 and not mull to 5 with a god awful hand. Report coming tomorrow.

[Hanni]

Why waste time playing Isochron Scepter when you can just run Counterbalance?

[Citrus-God]

Why waste time playing Isochron Scepter when you can just run Counterbalance?

Because Counterbalance/Top requires a specific set-up and doesn't answer the board. Also, Counterbalance as a card sucks in multiples. Scepter is always good in numbers.

[rockout]

Another Top 8 at the Grid Tournament on the 1/24/09 to compliment my top 8 at Hadley two weeks before.

// Lands
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [UNH] Plains
2 [UNH] Island
1 [UNH] Swamp
3 [B] Tundra
2 [B] Underground Sea
1 [B] Scrubland
3 [JGC] Mishra's Factory
3 [REW] Wasteland
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins

// Creatures
2 [PR] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
3 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [JGC] Counterspell
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [IN] Fact or Fiction
3 [AP] Vindicate - MVP
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
2 [ALA] Elspeth Knight-Errant
2 [DIS] Spell Snare is better than the format
2 [REW] Wrath of God

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [FNM] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [JGC] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [SHM] Runed Halo - rock solid
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus - amazing in multiples
SB: 2 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane - wins games
SB: 1 [TE] Humility - so worthless in the sb

Round 1: Dan Jordan TES 2-0
Game 1: Turn 1 he burning wishes for Empty the Warrens. I go factory go. Turn 2 drop standstill. I force a chant. He goes ETW for 12 tokens. I have ee in hand.
Board: -4 Swords -1 Standstill -Tundra in +3 Mage +3 Halo
Game 2: He mystical tutors for pyroblast. I mage pyroblast then stop multiple infernal tutors for who knows what and drop another mage for burning wish.

Round 2: Chris Aggro Loam 2-1
Game 1: He does what Aggro Loam does with a really long game of him being over 30 life for most of the game. He draws DD and we go to board.
Board: -2 Decree -1 Standstill -2 Wrath (1 for 1 is awful) +2 Ajani +3 Relic
Game 2: I have turn 1 relic. He plays goyf. I drop standstill and I eventually shrink him to a 0/1. He grips relic through the standstill and I see another relic. I kill a vore and go broken with planeswalkers.
Game 3: I drop Elspeth turn 4 with force back-up and see triple relic. I play relic into a chalice at 1 LOL. End of this game my hands was CS, BS, Force, EE, Vindicate, other random stuff.

Round 3: Steve Survival Elves 2-1 Solid Player
Game 1: I keep the best one lander ever and top a land into standstill. I drew a lot of counters and he has a slow hand. Elspeth wins it.
Board: -2 Wrath (Dumb idea) -1 Standstill -2 Decree +3 Relic +2 Ajani
Game 2: He goes broken off elf ringleader in multiples and I just go must be nice.
Board: -3 Relic +3 Plague (Why are these in the board? oh for tribal match ups gg rock.)
Game 3: I get lucky ee x 2 and plague/vindicate him down to one land while I drop an Ajani. I make a 28/28 token with force back up.

Round 4 and 5 I draw into top 8 finishing 4 on breakers.

I play Goyf Sligh.
Game 1: I see a lot of counters and ee's but he fireblasts me with a fanatic and me being at 5 life. I had force in hand, but just another ee.
Board: -2 Wrath -2 Decree -1 Eternal Dragon +2 Ajani +3 Halo
Game 2: I do the Geoff and vindicate lands and halo a figure. Ajani + Elspeth take it home.
Game 3: He mulls to 6. I see standstill, fof, fof, sea, factory, other stuff that wasn't going to get there, so I ship it and don't see anything. I mull to 5 with a decent hand of counters and academy ruins. I draw double swords off the top with academy ruins in hand. I see a sea and a tundra way too late. I lose to my own deck. Thanks LANDstill you suck.

Changes I should have made:
-1 Sea +1 Tundra I was almost always color screwed drawing sea instead of white.
-1 FOF +1 BS I love FOF, but I need to draw cards early if I am stuck on lands. I'm not sure if I'll end up doing this or not.
SB: Humility? What do I bring that in against? I needs to be something else. The 4th Vindicate would be nice.

Slops:
DJ for working
Scrubbing in the top 8 of back to back tourneys.
Getting lost for half an hour trying to get to a surprise party we were like 2 hours late for.
Pat forgetting Dragon stompy
Louis for getting accused of stealing a dreadnought and later having to play the same kid.
Mana Screw, how do you prepare for that?
Trying to hit on a drunk chick with some tigassbitties

Props:
Karl for another solid legacy tournament and having monthly tournaments.
Two of Team Awesome making top 8.
Ripping like a champ in 99% of my games
Beating 3 match ups I don't like playing.
Vindicating lands all day
Spell Snare being better than the format.
Making my home state proud.
Joe is dreamy and my hero

Congrats to the top 8 and hope to see you at the next tourney.

[Viscosity]

I notice you pull decrees for Ajani. I haven't played with Ajani yet. What deck types does he come in against. Can you expand a little on his weaknesses as a main deck card and when/why he comes in?

Thanks,
ian

[rockout]

I notice you pull decrees for Ajani. I haven't played with Ajani yet. What deck types does he come in against. Can you expand a little on his weaknesses as a main deck card and when/why he comes in?

Thanks,
ian

Well, Ajani comes in against burn and decks that can deal with decree tokens or decree angels but can't deal with a planeswalker. For instance, survival has no answer to a resolved planeswalker besides pushing through damage, same for aggro loam. It strengthens your match up when they have no answer to your threat. Plus, his ultimate is hilarious.

[thefreakaccident]

My triumph with outta date landstill builds continues:

I played in a small, non-sanctioned tournament of 8 people on Sunday...

Here is the list I used:

lands//23
4 tundra
1 scrubland
1 underground sea
4 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
1 wasteland
4 mishra's factory
3 island
2 plains
1 tolaria west

creatures//1
1 eternal dragon

spells//36
4 brainstorm
4 standstill
2 sensei's divining top
2 cunning wish
1 crucible of worlds

4 swords to plowshares
3 wrath of god
3 engineered explosives
2 humility

4 force of will
3 counterspell
2 spell snare

sideboard//
3 runed halo
3 counterbalance
1 sensei's divining top
1 tormod's crypt
3 extirpate
1 enlightened tutor
1 slaughter pact
1 dismantling blow
1 blue elemental blast


I went undefeated in 3 rounds... playing against Pikula, Zoo, and Finally TES...



Round 1: Bw 'I destroy permanents/discard cards/then bob to keep going'.dec
Game 1:
He plays duress instead of thoughtseize, but whatever...
He gets a great start of turn 1 duress (taking top), turn two sinkhole.

I play a brainstorm, Then get a few lands out so I can Cwish for E.Tutor... Normally, I would have fetched out a humility, but he was keeping me off of white, so I went for crucible... then sweeped with a top-decked wrath, then got control over the long run.

Game 2: I board out 1 humility (he runs only a few creatures), and shave a few numbers to get the CB/top lock for game 2...

I don't see the lock, but I get an early standstill and get enough lands that his LD doesn't matter... my life goes to 15, and then I gain control through my singleton humility (OMG lol), and a well-timed explosives for 2 (hitting a confidant and a shade).

Record 1-0-0


Round 2:

RG Zoo

Game 1: He plays a goyf, burns my dome several times, and I barely stabalize at 8 life (spell snare takes out POP)... I swords two of my factories after I wrath to get rid of his goyf, thius puts me at a safe 15 life...

I eventually stick a dragon and start swinging, he knows he cannot win the race, so he burns the dragon twice... I simply bring it back and it eventuall gives me the W.

Game 2: I take out 1 crucible, 2 humility, and a wrath for 3 counterbalance and 1 top...

I get a relatively early top, and assemble the lock pretty soon, and eventually get in there with 2-3 tokens while he's in the lock.


Record: 2-0-0

Round 3: TES, w/ Confidant's maindecked...

He is on the play and gets a first turn confidant off of a land and a mox.
I brainstorm to find swrods and get rid of him... he casts a chant, and I only have 2 counterspells as protection, but I can only cast one, so I counter the chant, and he passes the turn (apparently, he was bluffing to get a CS outta me), I land a top to find a spell snare... he duresses me to take my CS, then starts to combo, I then draw off of top to snare his tutor, then kill him softly.

Game 2: I board out: -2 humility, -3 wrath of god, -1 decree of justice, 2 cunning wish, 1 crucible of worlds, 1 dragon: board in--
+3 extirpate, +3 counterbalance, +1 sensei's divining top, +3 runed halo


Game 2, I get a monster of an opening hand with runed halo and engineered explosives, along with a Force... I get the halo, then counter a tutor (infernal) so I could extirpate it... he could only go for tokens, but I had the explosives just in case... My mishra's eventually get there.


So I ended up 3-0-0, and 6-0 in games, and got a few packs.


I really like the addition of CB/top in the sideboard for combo/burnesque decks, it really helps.

[Viscosity]

with E -dragon and factory as your only kills, weren't you bored to tears?

[thefreakaccident]

with E -dragon and factory as your only kills, weren't you bored to tears?

I was happy with the win...

Against combo, I like to not lose, winning can come later.

[rockout]

@freakaccident: Why do you only run 1 eternal dragon and a playset of factorys? Do you feel that your ability to race certain decks and put them under pressure when you have the board locked before they can draw into threats or find cards to answer your hate is much slower than at least a list with decree of justice? It definitely seems like it does.

[klaus]

I've been putting lots of thought and testing into a progressive LS build, lately.
[stressing the black splash, cutting Wrath and Humility etc..]
My first notable reward with it was a top8 finish at the Mercadiade, Hamburg, Germany (118 players).
Here's my REPORT (http://www.magickartenmarkt.de/TeamMKM/?cat=3), including an explanation of those not so common choices.
Discuss!

[rockout]

@Klaus: First off, congratulations on the finish. I love how everyone seems to quote Konsultant in their tournament reports on how to optimally side board and play various matches. Why did you board out a single vindicate in the goyf sligh match up? From my testing, keeping vindicate and going into LD mode when I can is the best strategy. That and stringing CA off multiple standstills.

Do you miss runed halo out of the board in some match ups? How was Tidehollow Sculler? I didn't notice if you boarded him in at all.

It looks like Jace took your Eternal dragon slot. I definitely am going to have to test that. I feel Eternal Dragon is just a little too clunky sometimes. Jace seemed to run really well in your build.

My general opinion is run the 4 blast effects and drop the scullers. Sculler isn't as good as meddling mage and you seemed to face a lot of aggro loam where blast effects are pretty good. Have you tested chainer's edict in the smother/edict slot. I know instant speed is tech, but CA later in the game is sometimes better. Also, the random one wrath out of the board doesn't seem worth it. You have more than enough removal to make a random wrath almost overkill.

Other than that, it looks pretty solid. It seems like a lot of builds are shifting away from counterspell and going with more spell snare action which is definitely better.

[raharu]

I've been putting lots of thought and testing into a progressive LS build, lately.
[stressing the black splash, cutting Wrath and Humility etc..]
My first notable reward with it was a top8 finish at the Mercadiade, Hamburg, Germany (118 players).
Here's my REPORT (http://www.magickartenmarkt.de/TeamMKM/?cat=3), including an explanation of those not so common choices.
Discuss!
That list looks completely baller, and the pseudo-transformational sideboard (Meddling Magi, Scullers -> Fish) is awesome. I really can't say there's anything about that list that seems weak. Maybe 2 Wraths in the sideboard just in case (Goblins, other Big Scary Aggro, maybe could help the Aggro Loam match), but aside from that, it looks great.


Do you miss runed halo out of the board in some match ups? How was Tidehollow Sculler? I didn't notice if you boarded him in at all.

He boarded them in quite a bit.

Would you think that Runed Halos would have helped at all? Naming Terravore is tech :3 Thoughts?

[rsaunder]

I've been putting lots of thought and testing into a progressive LS build, lately.
[stressing the black splash, cutting Wrath and Humility etc..]
My first notable reward with it was a top8 finish at the Mercadiade, Hamburg, Germany (118 players).
Here's my REPORT (http://www.magickartenmarkt.de/TeamMKM/?cat=3), including an explanation of those not so common choices.
Discuss!Well played, sir! I love the list and theory!

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

I may be off-base here, because I've never actually played with a Landstill deck, but I was wondering if anyone uses a green splash in this deck? The reason is the card Knight of the Reliquary, which is coming out in Conflux.

Here's a link: http://cdn1.libsyn.com/themagicsock/KnightoftheReliquaryPreviewTMSJan23.jpg?nvb=20090128095656&nva=20090129100656&t=05c6fa0906a7b210e6a34

I seem to remember seeing someone who ran green for Life from the Loam, and I was thinking that KotR could work pretty well in a Landstill deck, as long as there were enough cards to sac to him. KotR provides land tutoring, and this seems like a deck that could abuse that... Also, he doubles as a finisher, and seems to me like he could do this well enough to provide the main win condition for a UWg version of this deck...

Let me know if anyone has any thoughts about this. I'm prepared to believe I'm a little off-base, but I'm trying to find a good home to use that card in, so I thought I'd see what folks thought of it.:wink:

[Citrus-God]

I may be off-base here, because I've never actually played with a Landstill deck, but I was wondering if anyone uses a green splash in this deck? The reason is the card Knight of the Reliquary, which is coming out in Conflux.

Here's a link: http://cdn1.libsyn.com/themagicsock/KnightoftheReliquaryPreviewTMSJan23.jpg?nvb=20090128095656&nva=20090129100656&t=05c6fa0906a7b210e6a34

I seem to remember seeing someone who ran green for Life from the Loam, and I was thinking that KotR could work pretty well in a Landstill deck, as long as there were enough cards to sac to him. KotR provides land tutoring, and this seems like a deck that could abuse that... Also, he doubles as a finisher, and seems to me like he could do this well enough to provide the main win condition for a UWg version of this deck...

Let me know if anyone has any thoughts about this. I'm prepared to believe I'm a little off-base, but I'm trying to find a good home to use that card in, so I thought I'd see what folks thought of it.:wink:

My opinion is that you can't really run creatures in Landstill unless it's a late game win condition, mana source or a threat that ends the game in 3 turns/swings. So the only creatures I would ever consider for this deck are Exalted Angel, Tarmogoyf and Ajani Goldmane (Avatar token).

I wouldn't say that card is bad, but in Landstill, it is. In Landstill, having creatures in the deck is bad because it makes removal good against you. I have always found the point of Landstill to be able to make your part of your opponent's deck dead against yours. This is why removing Nevinyrral's Disk, Crucible of Worlds, and boarding out Humilities makes sense. But that's Artifact/Enchantment hate; creature is always in the maindeck as long as that deck is a non-combo deck.

So if you were to run Green, Tarmogoyf is the way to go. Nantuko Monastery, Krosan Grips and Pernicious Deed should also be heavily considered.

Although a good deck for the Knight would be Death and Taxes. Being able to Tutor up Wastelands, Dust Bowls, Outposts, Maze of Ith and Monasteries just seems really cool.

[klaus]

@rockout:

Why did you board out a single vindicate in the goyf sligh match up?
The only worthy target to hit would've been Vortex. Cutting down on BW spells allowed me to fetch for basic Islands with a smaller chance to get color screwed, while being less vulnerable to PoP.


Do you miss runed halo out of the board in some match ups? How was Tidehollow Sculler?
I didn't miss Halo a bit, even though I used to be a fan back in the day.
Sculler performs better against combo (Thoughtseize w/o lifeloss +clock!), better against control (Halo isn't too super here anyway) and he supports the fishy transformational plan that can catch an opponent off guard.
Also, don't forget that other than in the case of Halo, you actually get to see the opponent's hand, creating a neat synergy with following Mages.
As a matter of fact, Sculler is the addition I'm most fond of.


It looks like Jace took your Eternal dragon slot. I definitely am going to have to test that.
For me, Jace used to be subpar in too many games when I still ran the Wrath+Humility package. With all that spot removal though, he tends to win the game almost 50% of the time, if he sticks. I even considered the 3rd copy but dropped the idea for more speed.


Have you tested chainer's edict in the smother/edict slot.
Speed rules. Many games get decided by turn 3-4, which is the general theory behind Speedstill. This is why I'm hesitant to add cards that focus more on the lategame and are subpar in the early game.
I don't worry too much about the lategame anyway. Else wins if she sticks, period.
That being said, I might still try it as a random one off in one D. Edict slot. Heh.


Also, the random one wrath out of the board doesn't seem worth it. You have more than enough removal to make a random wrath almost overkill.
The "random" SB Wrath was a last minute decision. A friend informed me there were tons of Faeries, Merfolk at the Extended event the day before so I figured it might be worth the inclusion.
Being a one-off doesn't make it random however it's simply the dedicated creature hate slot #11.
-
Klaus
-

[rockout]

@Klaus: All solid points, thank you. I definitely understand wanting to be proactive with Sculler. It seems like a good plan. To the testing field I go. In my own list, I've been looking for a halo replacement and a eternal dragon replacement. What other match ups would you board in sculler? I know we have to be proactive against decks that have a better late game than list like survival and aggro loam. He also seems to house combo because once you know their hand there's a really good chance you can pull the W.

[Cenarius]

"I didn't miss Halo a bit, even though I used to be a fan back in the day.
Sculler performs better against combo (Thoughtseize w/o lifeloss +clock!), better against control (Halo isn't too super here anyway) and he supports the fishy transformational plan that can catch an opponent off guard. Also, don't forget that other than in the case of Halo, you actually get to see the opponent's hand, creating a neat synergy with following Mages."

Not really sure if your correct on this. Probably Runed Halo is as good as Runed Halo against control, because both can easily be taken away. Knowing your hand of your opponent maybe one reason to play Sculler and the synenergy with Meddling Mage might be good, I agree on that. But both cards can be taken away easily. Control will have enough cards to get rid of one of the two and destroy the other one.

Will you never get problems casting Sculler removing a card hoping that your opponent does not get a good topdeck? Your only counter having 0 mana is Force of Will.
Thoughtseize means that you have probably more mana open for counters cannot be removed to gain back the card and it's drawback does not really matter against ToA, because most of the times Storm 9-10 does not make a real difference.

It's just my opinion.

[Viscosity]

Klaus..

Your deck is close to my decklist in some respects. Even the card counts. Your counter package of 4 fow, 3 stifle, 2 Cs, is exactly what I use. The sideboard choices are also VERY similar. But looking it over, there are some big differences in strategy.

Do you ever miss crucible for the recurring wasteland?

Looking through it, it is clear that you are running Jace in place of where I use fact.. I have not yet really played much with Jace. So I want to ask a broad a question among Landstill players...

Jace or Fact ???? I'm kinda thinking Jace. I mean, its a planeswalker. And I agree with Klaus. Planeswalkers are BROKEN. Plus it costs one mana less. Any opinions? Jace may not be as good in my deck. I run city of traitors and mox diamond which drop elspeth and facts very quickly. The double blue on Jace could be an issue, as sometimes I struggle with counterspell.

Screw it, I'm going to post my decklist for discussion.

[rockout]

Klaus..

Your deck is close to my decklist in some respects. Even the card counts. Your counter package of 4 fow, 3 stifle, 2 Cs, is exactly what I use. The sideboard choices are also VERY similar. But looking it over, there are some big differences in strategy.

Do you ever miss crucible for the recurring wasteland?

Looking through it, it is clear that you are running Jace in place of where I use fact.. I have not yet really played much with Jace. So I want to ask a broad a question among Landstill players...

Jace or Fact ???? I'm kinda thinking Jace. I mean, its a planeswalker. And I agree with Klaus. Planeswalkers are BROKEN. Plus it costs one mana less. Any opinions? Jace may not be as good in my deck. I run city of traitors and mox diamond which drop elspeth and facts very quickly. The double blue on Jace could be an issue, as sometimes I struggle with counterspell.

Screw it, I'm going to post my decklist for discussion.

To be blatantly honest. I don't like Jace a whole lot. When I FoF, I want the answer right then and there. And FoFing in response to a spell is a good way to get 4 cards if you flip a force. I don't like my opponent to be able to kill my draw engine by killing Jace. However, like I said many pages ago, being comfortable with Jace is a playstyle choice. If you want to constantly draw cards versus draw them all at once, it's up to the player. One isn't necessarily better than the other.

[Viscosity]

The soup nazi says,"no deck for you!"

[Frid]

Why is jace better if you dont run humility?

Klaus will you add path to exile instead of diabolic edict or smother?

Why 2 elspeth? why is your purpose runing 2, win condition or protection?

[Viscosity]

Why is jace better if you dont run humility?

Klaus will you add path to exile instead of diabolic edict or smother?

Why 2 elspeth? why is your purpose runing 2, win condition or protection?

Perhaps it isn't better I haven't really thought about it much. I'll proxy Jace for my FoF and find out. I think FoF will win out though, in my build.

have you played with Elspeth? It it more than just a kill condition you hope to draw eventually. It is a bomb early game too. Elspeth is always good and once in play, the focus of your opponent is to remove it or die. I've even considered running 3. It serves as a very strong stabilizer and also as a kill condition. It is nice sometimes for landstill games not to last forever. Elspeth can be a control card, or a very fast clock. I often begin swinging in with a 5/5 flying mishra immediately. It is the most powerful single card in the deck and quite difficult to remove. Plus it is fun to play.

Just read Klaus and my tournament reports. They often read like this:

"My elspeth stays in play and carries to quick win."
"he manages to get his own elspeth into play, I lose"
"we spend the majority of the game focused around him trying to remove my Elspeth"

It wasn't until I played against Elspeth that I realized how annoying she is.

[klaus]

@Frid:
Path to Exile will be tested as a 2-of. Most likely in the Edict Slot. Who knows, I might replace the remaining D. Edict with a "Cruel" one.

@"Sculler":
To everyone who plays a heavy black splash: Test that dude. He's so good, he's almost maindeckable. You're correct when you say he's easily removable (at least in theory), but:
G2 your smart opponents will have boarded out most of their creature hate. AND: the only Artifacts they got to see G1 should be activated Factories and EE (even Grip sucks against those). Hell even IF they remove Sculler, they invested mana and a spell, while you may have beaten for 2 or more AND had them play with fewer cards in the meantime.
I don't defend that choice, because I feel I need to prove anything, it's just that I think he's heavily underrated. Heck. Mesmeric Fiend (http://magiccards.info/tr/en/69.html) saw serious Vintage play for a long time and he's 1/1!

@FoF VS Jace. Imo it doesn't depend on your play style at all, which one's better. It's a matter of the environment you play him in (deck configuration and meta).

[ChiiMagic]

In regards to Jace vs. FOF, it really depends on the build of your deck and what you are trying to accomplish. Like in my build, with the Scepters and Chants, FOF is strictly better because I'm usually looking for one card in the top 5, whereas it would take me several turns with Jace to find the other pair of my Scepter combo. I also like FOF due to the fact that it gives a test to you opponent, which they usually fail because they have no knowledge of your hand. FOFing in response to things gives your opponent the biggest chances to screw up the piles and to overload you with cards because they don't know you already have the answer you need.
However, I personally haven't tested with Jace, but I don't know how comfortable I would be with tapping out on turn 3 to draw one card. I agree with the post above that he is pretty dependent on the metagame you expect to see. I play in a very aggressive metagame with all sorts of crap aggro and Thresh that always sneak in a Mongoose turn 1 to kill a would be Jace. I will not say that he is incorrect because I haven't played with him, but I would just stick with what I am positive works, which is FOF.

[conboy31]

It wasn't until I played against Elspeth that I realized how annoying she is.

That is exactly what I noticed. My co-worker has been playing around with various landstill decks but by and large I still have been able to beat him by outplaying him. Whether it was baiting a cb flip, slow playing creatures with him quickly using wrath or even the mis-assessment of what is or is not overly relevant to counter.
However, now that he is playing with 2 Elspeth the decks power is minimizing his play mistakes. She protects herself and creates win conditions via an army or pumping a token up. Even making a factory fly with moat out and no blockers. When she lands on the table at first it seems annoying but that quickly evaporates into a threat with a tangible time line to be answered.

[Viscosity]

In regards to Jace vs. FOF, it really depends on the build of your deck and what you are trying to accomplish. Like in my build, with the Scepters and Chants, FOF is strictly better because I'm usually looking for one card in the top 5, whereas it would take me several turns with Jace to find the other pair of my Scepter combo. I also like FOF due to the fact that it gives a test to you opponent, which they usually fail because they have no knowledge of your hand. FOFing in response to things gives your opponent the biggest chances to screw up the piles and to overload you with cards because they don't know you already have the answer you need.
However, I personally haven't tested with Jace, but I don't know how comfortable I would be with tapping out on turn 3 to draw one card. I agree with the post above that he is pretty dependent on the metagame you expect to see. I play in a very aggressive metagame with all sorts of crap aggro and Thresh that always sneak in a Mongoose turn 1 to kill a would be Jace. I will not say that he is incorrect because I haven't played with him, but I would just stick with what I am positive works, which is FOF.

I did a lot of playtesting tonight and I can give another solid reason why I like FoF.... Counterbalance. I played a lot of games vs a deck similar to Its the Fear. He would drop CB and I'd let it hit. Then start playing into it with WoG, Elspeth, Decree, FoF. And eventually I'd drop an EE for 2 (spending 4 mana to do so). GG counterbalance.

[thefreakaccident]

I did a lot of playtesting tonight and I can give another solid reason why I like FoF.... Counterbalance. I played a lot of games vs a deck similar to Its the Fear. He would drop CB and I'd let it hit. Then start playing into it with WoG, Elspeth, Decree, FoF. And eventually I'd drop an EE for 2 (spending 4 mana to do so). GG counterbalance.

It is actually staggering how many people do not understand that you can manipulate EE in this fashion... I crush a lot of threshold players just b/c they cannot hit EE w/ cc of 3+ consistently.

[Frid]

Well i havent played elspeth yet thats true i have to give her a chance.

How is it suposed to be played? Agains aggro i would play her fast and start creating one or two creatures and try to race them with it + counters and removal. Agains control wait a bit more with a counter backup i supose.

I have tested a bit the vindicates and i love them, i never played them becouse i used to play UW cunning landstill with light B splash (extirpate and slaughter pact). I stopped playing it becouse i felt like i needed more non creature removal, that is when you miss pernicious, seems like vindicate is what the deck needed.

Can i ask why did you remove humility when you add vindicate? it was a card i wanted to see agains every aggro and aggro control matchup

[konsultant]

Can i ask why did you remove humility when you add vindicate? it was a card i wanted to see agains every aggro and aggro control matchup

The problem with Humility isn't that Humility isn't good enough, in fact i've won tournaments because of it, the problem is Krosan Grip. You can't afford to have Grip target's it give's anybody running Grip a huge advantage over you. I've even given up on Crucible whitch was a long time staple of mine just because of Krosan Grip. Crucible is still feasable but I wouldn't run it without Academy Ruins at this point.

It wasn't Vindicate that replaced Humility it was the Plainswalkers that replaced Humility. The Vindicate's replaced Disenchant/Wish as a more versatile removal spell.

Humility is still viable but I would run it in the SB and only board it in if you don't think your opponent has Grip. Perhaps if you go to game 3 I might try sneaking them in against Thresh.

[Irish_Mafia]

The problem with Humility isn't that Humility isn't good enough, in fact i've won tournaments because of it, the problem is Krosan Grip. You can't afford to have Grip target's it give's anybody running Grip a huge advantage over you. I've even given up on Crucible whitch was a long time staple of mine just because of Krosan Grip. Crucible is still feasable but I wouldn't run it without Academy Ruins at this point.

It wasn't Vindicate that replaced Humility it was the Plainswalkers that replaced Humility. The Vindicate's replaced Disenchant/Wish as a more versatile removal spell.

Humility is still viable but I would run it in the SB and only board it in if you don't think your opponent has Grip. Perhaps if you go to game 3 I might try sneaking them in against Thresh.

Can you post an updated list of your deck?

[konsultant]

Can you post an updated list of your deck?

I won the last 2 events I entered with the exact list that is posted a few pages back. Even with only losing one round in 2 events I have a couple tweaks in mind but I'm saving them for the GP.

[Viscosity]

The problem with Humility isn't that Humility isn't good enough, in fact i've won tournaments because of it, the problem is Krosan Grip. You can't afford to have Grip target's it give's anybody running Grip a huge advantage over you. I've even given up on Crucible whitch was a long time staple of mine just because of Krosan Grip. Crucible is still feasable but I wouldn't run it without Academy Ruins at this point.

It wasn't Vindicate that replaced Humility it was the Plainswalkers that replaced Humility. The Vindicate's replaced Disenchant/Wish as a more versatile removal spell.

Humility is still viable but I would run it in the SB and only board it in if you don't think your opponent has Grip. Perhaps if you go to game 3 I might try sneaking them in against Thresh.

That s exactly why I don't run Humility. A Gripped crucible is one thing, but a gripped humility means they now swing at you with their critters.. ouch! Humility is very strong against some matches, but you become dependent on it sticking in play. I'd much rather clear the board and spot remove subsequent threats. I also agree that vindicate is just better than cunning wish. I played a lot of cunning with LS and it is just too damn slow.

On the crucible; I love them. My deck has more synergy with crucible though, due to mox diamond, city of traitors, and academy. 2nd turn crucible is just good, especially with a wasteland...

They grip crucible -- I use academy to get it back. They must kill both academy and crucible at once, but often by the time that can be pulled off, I draw into another crucible, and pull academy back into play. Krosan grip has a hard time handling it.

[Viscosity]

It is actually staggering how many people do not understand that you can manipulate EE in this fashion... I crush a lot of threshold players just b/c they cannot hit EE w/ cc of 3+ consistently.

yes. I actually didn't even think about it until someone pointed it out in a tournament a while back. now it is my favorite removal. I find casting cost to be quite significant in the current meta. The ability to manipulate EEs casting cost while keeping the removal targets what you want, is VERY powerful. Plus the X makes you able to grab it with tolaria west, etc..

EE is extremely useful.

For anyone who didn't get it: if you cast EE using 2 blue, one white, and one colorless.. The converted casting cost is "4" but it blows up everything that costs "2". GG counterbalance

[rockout]

I won the last 2 events I entered with the exact list that is posted a few pages back. Even with only losing one round in 2 events I have a couple tweaks in mind but I'm saving them for the GP.

:-( >sniff< >sniff<

My tweak was running tombstalker as another win condition. Cats out of the bag.

[from Cairo]

My tweak was running tombstalker as another win condition. Cats out of the bag.

Does the deck really need more win conditions? I feel like with 3-4 Factory, 1-3 DoJ, 0-2 Eternal Dragon and 0-2 Elspeth, there's alot of good options that all add something in addition to being threats (ie the ability to produce mana, cycle when not needed as threats or in addition). I guess Espeth doesn't really do much other than be a threat, it can draw attention away from damaging the LS player though, I suppose people aiming burn at Tombstalker does this too though.

It would just seem like the more win cons you add to the deck the more it moves toward being agro-control, rather than a mid-late game, control deck.

[Mister Agent]

Ever since grip was printed I never seem to really like Humility all that much either. I mean aggro-control players can just time walk you right out of the game if they nail your Humility with Krosan Grip in response to you playing standstill. Especially when they already have active threats on the field. Humility is only a proactive sweeper when you have manlands and decree of justice at the forefront. Unfortunately, this proactive sweeper strategy via Humility is on a thin rope when Krosan Grip suddenly becomes involved.

You won't fall into the same trap as easily with Vindicates opening more avenues for you to play standstill. Vindicates is quite good against just about anything including aggro-control variants.

[Citrus-God]

You can always play Humilities maindeck and then board them out post board. Humilities are only in the maindeck to steal games, so boarding them out makes sense.

[rockout]

It's ok Bardo. I knew it was going to get deleted. I just had to go for it.

When I used to play Humility, I was too focused on sticking it then starting my game. I would dig, dig, dig solely to find and resolve Humility because it was the end all game breaker that I wanted. I remember going back to the drawing board when my Humility got EOT'd gripped with a dreadnought on the board. Now that I've played with vindicate, I can't see myself going back to Humility unless it's out of the board as a two of.

[mossivo1986]

I guess ive never had the krosan grip time walk problem. I usually solve the threats in play then play the soft lock on creatures if you will.

[from Cairo]

I guess ive never had the krosan grip time walk problem. I usually solve the threats in play then play the soft lock on creatures if you will.

Yea I tend to do the same with Humility. After resolution I still work on controlling the board as much as possible, Humility just makes controlling it alot easier, making DoJs into instant speed Wrath of Gods + cantrip, and with Factorys owning the red zone. It seems like a mistake to rely on it too much though, like to drop a Standstill if my opponent has Humilitied 1/1s and 2G available, post board that seems like asking for trouble.

Some of the match ups that its especially good against don't even have Krosan Grip, like Merfolk or Rb Goblins. Or like in Rgb Goblins, post board they have Engineered Plague in addition to Humility to worry about so that's 5-6 threats to deal with with 3-4 answers; and their draw engine sends their Grips to the bottom of the library, while mine will be getting them to hand.

I admit though that Humility may be a crutch of sorts that with more time playing the deck I will find its not really a card that's pulling its weight, but so far I've always been pleased with a UWb Humility build.

I'm playing Vindicate as well though, I agree that most of the time I was Wishing for a Disenchant effect, so Vindicate covers that and much more, it seems like a very good replacement.

[Viscosity]

Played a 4 round swiss legacy event tonight and split for first with UW landstill again.

Round one: Aggro Loam 2-1
Round two: Survival madness 2-0
Round three: Vial Goblins 2-1
Round four: Its The Fear - split for first (favor to my deck but we were tired)

Both losses were due to bad mana draws that I should have mulled. Live and learn. So far in the events, the deck has placed 1st, 4th, 1st. With the 4th place being directly related to player error.

[Genericcactus]

Ok guys, first time poster, but long time reader on this thread. I've been playing U/W or U/W/b Landstill for about 8 months now, and have competed in several small (15-20 ppl), but very competitive tourneys (NoVa crowd). I've done as best as third, and here is my current list.

Land:
4x Flooded Strand
2x Polluted delta
4x Tundra
1x Underground Sea
1x Scrubland
3x Island
2x Plains
1x Dustbowl
1x Tolaria West
1x Academy Ruins
4x Mishra's Factory

Body:
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
4x Standstill
4x Counterspell
3x Fact or Fiction
2x Humility
2x Wrath of God
2x Engineered Explosives
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Sensei's Diving Top

Win:
2x Decree of Justice
2x Elspeth, Knight Errant

Sideboard:
4x Counterbalance
4x Meddling Mage
3x Relic of Progenitus
2x Hydroblast
2x Engineered Plague

Card choices worth noting: I agree with a lot of the discussion in the 4-color Landstill forum about the strengths of running Top maindeck and CB in the board. As a first turn drop Top makes Standstill so much better. It ensures land drops, and along with fetches, helps your early draws. Counterbalance makes our best matchups worse and or worst matchups better. Sounds like it deserves a sideboard slot to me.

Questions: How good is Vindicate? Is it necessary to play Vindicate if I run Counter-Top? Is Wasteland just more powerful than Dust Bowl? If so, should I play Crucible?

Also, do you think that it is worth playing Divert in the sideboard? It destroys both Team America and ANT. It also helps against burn.

[Viscosity]

nice list!

I tested vindicate tonight and prefered to keep it out of MY deck. I love crucible.. I play two and it seems just right. I also like EE. If you raised the EE count to 3, and crucible to 2, you'd be seeing alot more recurring EEs.

As far as vinidicate to go with counterbalance, just think about what decks you put the Cb in against, do they have bombs that cost 3 or is it more about countering 1s and 2s?


Divert is nice. I played 2 on my board for a while. I don't think it deserves a slot though as it is very condtional, both on the decks that it playss against as well as pulling it off. You are diverting chant/duress right? because it does not work against tendrils.

[from Cairo]

Divert is nice. I played 2 on my board for a while. I don't think it deserves a slot though as it is very condtional, both on the decks that it playss against as well as pulling it off. You are diverting chant/duress right? because it does not work against tendrils.

Duress can't be diverted either, except in a game with 3+ people, its target opponent.

[raharu]

Duress can't be diverted either, except in a game with 3+ people, its target opponent.
Know that Thoughtseize can, though, and some combo builds will be playing it over Duress still (even ANT) because it can pull Hate-Bears.

[Genericcactus]

Divert is nice. I played 2 on my board for a while. I don't think it deserves a slot though as it is very condtional, both on the decks that it playss against as well as pulling it off. You are diverting chant/duress right? because it does not work against tendrils.


In the combo matchup I would hit Chant. Divert is also very good against Team America. Misdirecting a Thoughtseize or Sinkhole can pretty much be game over for them.

I board in Counterbalance against ANT, Burn, Goyf-Sligh, and Threshold. It almost single handedly fixes those match-ups without me having to devote space to cards that are more limited in scope (read: Ajani).

[Viscosity]

Duress can't be diverted either, except in a game with 3+ people, its target opponent.

good point :eek: . The divert is very MEh against ANT then. They can simply duress your FoW, cast AN, and win. I've used it on my board, and I had a couple spectacular plays with it, BUt I felt that spellsnare would of come in more often and been just as useful. And I don't even like spellsnare that much on my board.

Divert shines in the matchup vs black. Sinkhole or Hymn can be GG. also, it is useful in counter wars. I think that it is a reasonable choice and that each person should decide to use it or not depending on their meta.

I have trouble with the 15 card sideboard slots not being enough, haha. In fact, that is where my deck needs the most improvement. I'm leaning toward my third color being black. It was red for a while, but I'm liking the engineered plagues on my board right now; Merfolk, Gobby, Elf, Sliver, Ichorid.

The other option is using green for grip, arg! i can't figure out my board!

It changes daily...

What do you guys think of this list? I'm squeezing 2 tops into the MD.

Card----------------------Opponent Deck
3 Counterbalance----------combo, burn, loam, etc.
3 tormod's crypt-----------loam, ichorid, survival, etc.
3 Chalice------------------combo, burn, etc.
3 Meddling Mage-----------combo, loam, LOTS of DECKS
3 Krosan Grip--------------Counterbalance.deck, Pithing Needle, dreadnought, survival

[3duece]

I think that's a solid board. The only thing missing is blue blasts. Even in 3 color, blood moon effects can cripple you and being able to fetch an island with a blast in hand is very strong.