[Deck] UW(x) Landstill

[gustha]

It'a a bit difficult figuring out a board if we don't have the main ^^
If you sneak 2 tops MD i don't se any reason for chalice to remain. Cb+top already handles well with burn/combo. If you have black, 3x Eng Plague are good enough to deal with goblins/elves/merfolks/slivers. Also, if you have a mono-green-producer-land (fair enough if you have crucible and only grip with green), grip is a solid addiction. I guess you do not run vindicate MD, and the SB does not have a wishboard so I guess you don't play wish. Vindicate is far more versatile than grip, imho. Also, those 3 slots can be filled with ajani, runed halo, 2Diabolic Edict+1Meddling Mage, depending on the meta. Also, I think that 2 relic + 1 cript is the best split atm to deal with all grave games (i usually board in relic against threshold, and i've never boarded in crypt alone, before relic was printed...course there were few tomstalkers at that time...).

3 Counterbalance
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Engineered Plague
3 Meddling Mage
3 Open slots

Those 3 slot can be filled with:
+3 grip: add a little splash to improve especially threshold/dreadstill MU. It's the less satisfying option imho. Vindicate is far better.
+1 mage + 2 edict: a full set of mages is always good, and 2 edict adds some removal for the dreadstill and threshold MU
+1 mage +2 ajani: if you plan to face goyfsligh, burn, aggroloam
+3 runed halo: if the meta is full of combo.deck

Heck, this is a good side...if only i had room for 2 MD top :(


Here's the list I'm currently testing:

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [B] Tundra
3 [TE] Wasteland
1 [R] Underground Sea
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [TSP] Swamp (1)
1 [R] Scrubland
2 [APL] Plains (3)
3 [RAV] Island (4)

// Creatures
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 [LRW] Jace Beleren

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
1 [A] Nevinyrral's Disk
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
2 [R] Wrath of God
3 [OD] Standstill
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
3 [AP] Vindicate
4 [A] Swords to Plowshares
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [A] Counterspell

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
SB: 1 [A] Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 3 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [SHM] Runed Halo

I went back to 2 Doj because my meta is full of landstill, and this is a basic card :( However, when i side Ajani in i usually side doj out, so it's a card I would honestly replace, or go down to 1x. An option to fit the cb/top engine (which is fairly good to stop combo/burn, which are a big problem, and especially to deal with high tide that is a big pain too...) could be:
MD:
-1 Counterspell/-1 Doj
+1 SDT

SB:
-1 cop:red (we handle burn with cb/top)
-3 halo (we handle combo with cb/top)
+1 SDT
+3 CB

Thoughts and suggestion are welcome. Your 2 cents in advance.

[raharu]

good point :eek: . The divert is very MEh against ANT then. They can simply duress your FoW, cast AN, and win. I've used it on my board, and I had a couple spectacular plays with it, BUt I felt that spellsnare would of come in more often and been just as useful. And I don't even like spellsnare that much on my board.

Divert shines in the matchup vs black. Sinkhole or Hymn can be GG. also, it is useful in counter wars. I think that it is a reasonable choice and that each person should decide to use it or not depending on their meta.

I have trouble with the 15 card sideboard slots not being enough, haha. In fact, that is where my deck needs the most improvement. I'm leaning toward my third color being black. It was red for a while, but I'm liking the engineered plagues on my board right now; Merfolk, Gobby, Elf, Sliver, Ichorid.

The other option is using green for grip, arg! i can't figure out my board!

It changes daily...

What do you guys think of this list? I'm squeezing 2 tops into the MD.

Card----------------------Opponent Deck
3 Counterbalance----------combo, burn, loam, etc.
3 tormod's crypt-----------loam, ichorid, survival, etc.
3 Chalice------------------combo, burn, etc.
3 Meddling Mage-----------combo, loam, LOTS of DECKS
3 Krosan Grip--------------Counterbalance.deck, Pithing Needle, dreadnought, survival
I would consider removing the Chalices for another Mage, a third SDT in the 75, and another Counterbalance. Also, I've never been that keen on Krosan Grip, and I've found that playing black over green gives you more options and the ever-versatile and powerfully destructive Vindicate. When asked why I would consider playing Vindicate over K. Grip I answer with a question: "what do I need to blow up, outside of Counterbalance, where Split Second is needed or is going to make the match easier?" Scepter-chant, maybe, but that can be preempted with Pithing Needles and Explosives (amongst Countermagic and other options), and Vindicate is more a more versatile, maindeck playable card. Since it's very rare to see Counterbalance.dec to play enough 3cc cards to stop Vindicate, and because K. Grip has a very limited appeal in any other situations, Vindicate is a better card. Or at least the one I'd play. Green is a worse color than Black in general for Control, anyway, so not being boxed into it is nice.

[Viscosity]

Good points. I agree that chalices would be the first cards to go. I like the idea of a SDt, 4th mage, 4th Cb.

Vindicate might work, but it just doesn't play well in my main deck. I would mostly be interested in removing pithing needles with it (which come in after board) so perhaps vindicate deserves a Sb slot? another benefit of vindicate over grip is that it removes plainswalkers. Not much else does.

So this is a revised list:

4x Meddling Mage
4x Counterbalance
1x SDT
3x Tormod's Crypt
3x ??????????????

The color of the last card is totally optional in my mind. But the primary focus would be to effectively handle an opponent's pithing needle.

When an opponent plays pithing needle on EE, I have no other way out other than what this sideboard card is. EE itself will deal with their counterbalance.

So the question is: What is the best sideboard card to fill these 3 slots? Being able to put the card in for other situations is 2nd priority to the effectiveness of removing pithing needle. But versatility is not to be completely discounted. Ability to handle other landstill weaknesses would be a plus.

Some options:
3x Vindicate
3x Krosan Grip
3x serenity
3x disenchant
3x shattering spree

What about 3x Nevvy Disk? I know it costs 4, but is that bad? 4 means it can get through counterbalance easily. It isn't played much anymore, but sometimes that is also good. I'd probably pull out mox diamond, but the main deck city of traitors can get disk out faster. Disk not only removes the pithing needles and counterbalances, but also does the job that the EE would of done anyway. Obviously weak to grip and stifle. Any thoughts?

[Hanni]

I haven't done any testing with Elspeth, Ajani, or Jace Beleren... so I really cannot comment on those cards.

In a Landstill shell without Humility, I run 4 Mishra's Factory, 2 Eternal Dragon, and 2 Decree of Justice. This is quite possibly wrong, and I'll test the other win conditions at some point.

For reference though, this is what I'm running:

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [B] Tundra
1 [A] Tropical Island
1 [R] Savannah
4 [OD] Island (4)
2 [5E] Plains (3)
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)

// Creatures
2 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
4 [BD] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Standstill
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [R] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
3 [5E] Wrath of God
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [U] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus

I'm 100% positive that CounterTop needs to be run in Landstill. I've said this before and I'll say it again.

Humility is a crutch that I think the deck does not need anymore. The deck has plenty of answers for creatures, and CounterTop helps keep most things off the table once its active anyway.

The green splash could hypothetically become a black splash, and Krosan Grip could hypothetically be replaced with Vindicate. Not really sure about that one yet.

[Citrus-God]

Here's my current Counter-Top Landstill list. I would like to point out that the deck still plays like UW Control.

I firmly believe that Counterbalance is strictly a Sideboard card. It may come in just about every match up, but different cards get sided out. Reason why it's not in the maindeck because by doing so, your deck will lack focus and not draw the right balance of draw cards, CB pieces and Counters. Hence, Sideboard card.


// Mana 25
2 Eternal Dragon

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
3 Tundra
2 Plains
2 Island


// Spells 35
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Decree of Justice


// Sideboard 15
2 Chainer's Edict
3 Krosan Grip
4 Counterbalance
3 Meddling Mage
3 Runed Halo


I'll post boarding plans later.

[Viscosity]

Elspeth, Elspeth, Elspeth. :frown:

[gustha]

I think Jace over Fof wuold be better in countertop landstill, since it helps to dig faster the deck (using the -1 ability), and also to decrease the cb/top engine without losing its support. Instead of 3/4 sdt/cb we can run 2/3 sdt/cb with jace support. Also, i don't know if citrus list realy needs all those cb/top, with all those mass removals!!!
@viscosity: if you have no splash yet, or plan to make a little splash for 1 sb card, i think disk should be a MD option. Rember that it will be indestructible if the 3rd ability of elspeth resolves. Also, gets rid of mongoose, with a good counter support, and it's our b-plan if needle names EE (which for me isn't that problem, since i run vindicate MD). It is weak to grip (maindeck grip?!?), and stifle is not a problem since it destruction is not a part of the cost but of the resolution of its ability. Generally speaking, for example againt threshold, i cast it on t5-t6 to avoid daze and with a countersupport. The opponent then tries to play around it (and avoids to play creatures till he finds the way to manage with disk) and saves the stifles for his activation. The I start to waste and vindicate his lands, and cast wrath to pass over its stifles, so the board is clear and disk never thouched. If they respond to EE wrath vindicate waste then i activate disk, saving my counters for support. Disk really needs to be MD in at least 1 copy, it's really rediculous!
For the 3 slots filler i already said what i think: 3 eng plague miss in your sb, ihmo. The rest of the sb handles the rest fair well.

[Elfrago]

Elspeth, Elspeth, Elspeth. :frown:

Am I the only one who does'nt like the planeswalker? It's a great win-con, but if you draw her at the wrong time it's a dead card. Dragon and Decree can be cycled, Mishra's taps for mana when not needed.

And four mana at sorcery speed are too much for a card that merely optimizes standstill.

[Muradin]

I am also convinced that the plainswalkers are in general not as good as the other win options viable for Landstill. All the other cards that can eventually win the game do still have some other use besides doing so. Elspeth may be good in some certain situations but most of the time I feel like she either is win-more or nearly useless.

Of course she gives the impression that she was good and I was often told: "Look, I won with Elspeth, she is so broken." But that was in most cases that she ended games where the Landstill player had already managed to bury
his opponent under a lot of cardadvantage and the game would have ended in his favor quite soon anyway.

I see her as a nice T2 card, but in general the only reason to run her in legacy Landstill might be because she is actually really good in the Landstill mirror match.

[gustha]

It's a great win-con, but if you draw her at the wrong time it's a dead card.
I am also convinced that the plainswalkers are in general not as good as the other win options viable for Landstill(italics are mine)

The simple fact is that Humility (the card which was replaced by elspeth, not Doj as one may think - and that's a common error, which me myself have made as soon as elspeth was printed) is not, strictly speaking, a wincon, but a board control element and is also hatable in different manners. Elspeth (PW in general) is a control element that also acts as a wincon, is not a wincon in jerself: she requires the same counter support as humility to be cast, but PW are less hatable and require less support to work. It's like another player is playing at your side! Elspeth is at this point far better than humility, since the only things that can break her down are those things which our deck is designed to stop: sorcery-like hate (vindicate, oring), creatures (she protects herself while buying us time, we deal with the rest with our spot/mass removals). Is not that is seems broken, she is broken! Most of the deck have no answer to a resolved PW, so if they want to stop her (and they'll want! PWs revert the gear of the game!) they must lose tempo focusing solely on that PW, while a single grip can handle fairly with humility. And we now, basically a control player has to steal tempo from the opponent and gain tempo (that's the meaning of a mid-late game strategy). The fact that, combined with our massive board/stack control elements, elspeth helps LS to be more aggressive on the board, is not irrelevant too. Course PW needs a little mentality change to be played, but the deck, though changed in its shape, has lost nothing of his pure control ambition...

[Hanni]

My question is that, with CounterTop, and without Humility, how much better is Elspeth than Eternal Dragon and DoJ.

[gustha]

My question is that, with CounterTop, and without Humility, how much better is Elspeth than Eternal Dragon and DoJ.

As I just pointed out, the question is imho wrong in its bases: Elspeth acts better the role of humility, not of dragon nor Doj. As soon as it was printed, I made the same mistake and pull doj out of my list: a terrible error! If you do run countertop (which I agree with citrus should be a sb strategy) and feel that humility is unuseful, then you should feel nearly the same in regard to elspeth. If you dislike board control element and need wincondition, then probably cycling decree is much safer for you than casting a 4cc-sorcery-speed wincon. With the basic difference that Elspeth goes on creating soldiers and making cb/top indestructible (and this will happen nearly every game for you, since with cb/top engine you can get all of the threats away from elspeth for 4/5 turns), even after a EE@0 or after a wrath, while decree is a 2x and you have to play them carefully or as game breaker. (Not to mention that she is far better than dragon). I believe that a 1 Elspeth + 2 Doj split would be really solid in your list.

Going back to my list, this is the sb i'm currently playing
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
SB: 1 [A] Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 3 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [SHM] Runed Halo

The problem with this is that i never have that much luck to draw a couple of mage/halo against combo or burn :( I tried to sneak a sdt into my list (-1 counterspell, going down to 2 CS/ 3 snare) and manage to rearrange the board like this:

// Sideboard
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Engineered Plague
3 Meddling Mage
4 Counterbalance
2 Sensei's Divining Top (3 with the one MD)

Do you think that this configuration is better than the first? I have problems with halo/mage (they're 6 cards against combo, plus 2 ajani against burn), but i always find it easy for my opponents to play around them, unless obviously they draw a slow hand, which seem to happen few times :'( Cb/top is a wonderful engine against combo burn (if it comes down faster... cb in itslef doesn't gain us time...), but in this way I lose ajani that's wonderful in the aggro-loam MU.

[Citrus-God]

Elspeth is a good post-board card. It protects your Humilities and Runed Halos. This is something that is vital against a deck like Threshold. And yes, regardless of what most say, Threshold in the hands of a good player is a scary match up.

[Viscosity]

I think Jace over Fof wuold be better in countertop landstill, since it helps to dig faster the deck (using the -1 ability), and also to decrease the cb/top engine without losing its support. Instead of 3/4 sdt/cb we can run 2/3 sdt/cb with jace support. Also, i don't know if citrus list realy needs all those cb/top, with all those mass removals!!!
@viscosity: if you have no splash yet, or plan to make a little splash for 1 sb card, i think disk should be a MD option. Rember that it will be indestructible if the 3rd ability of elspeth resolves. Also, gets rid of mongoose, with a good counter support, and it's our b-plan if needle names EE (which for me isn't that problem, since i run vindicate MD). It is weak to grip (maindeck grip?!?), and stifle is not a problem since it destruction is not a part of the cost but of the resolution of its ability. Generally speaking, for example againt threshold, i cast it on t5-t6 to avoid daze and with a countersupport. The opponent then tries to play around it (and avoids to play creatures till he finds the way to manage with disk) and saves the stifles for his activation. The I start to waste and vindicate his lands, and cast wrath to pass over its stifles, so the board is clear and disk never thouched. If they respond to EE wrath vindicate waste then i activate disk, saving my counters for support. Disk really needs to be MD in at least 1 copy, it's really rediculous!
For the 3 slots filler i already said what i think: 3 eng plague miss in your sb, ihmo. The rest of the sb handles the rest fair well.

What decks are concerned with that you put in Plagues? I seem to have positive match ups against most tribal decks.

I played another tournament last night. I got 2nd due to tie breakers. My only loss was a 1-2 loss to thresh and I had some bad luck. The guy who got 1st played "Its the Goyf" (CB, top, goyf, loam, Bob), and I went 2-0 against him.

I went ahead and ran Krosan Grip on the side and not disk. The indestructible disk, although funny, is a "win more" condition. I've never lost after elspeth used her ultimate.

I knew there was some stax there last night, so my SB looked like this:

3 crypt
3 mage
4 counterbalance
1 top (2 main)
2 serenity
2 k. grip

I was VERY happy with the K. Grip and I find it more useful than vindicate against counterbalance. I also prefer instant speed spells. I'm going to think some more about MD disk - I don't think it is worth opening myself up to getting owned by K. Grip though. I didn't haev to play the BURN or ANT deck, so the CB/tops never came in. I've decided those are pretty much the only match-ups I bring them in for.

For those of you convinced that Elspeth isn't that great, I'm glad to hear it. That is less Elspeth the rest of us have to worry about. It is one of the most (if not THE most) powerful cards in the current landstill environment, and you all are being slow to realize that. I wouldn't play her without Decree in the deck as well. It is the decree protecting elspeth even further that causes most "scoops".

[Citrus-God]

I tested Nantuko Monastery again. It's killer good. I'll have explanations by tonight. K, bai

[gustha]

What decks are concerned with that you put in Plagues? I seem to have positive match ups against most tribal decks.

Goblins, countersliver (a horrible MU for me...my opponent always becomes god topdecking 4 out of his 4 cristalline sliver in 2 turns...), mefolks, elves (from aggro to combo). Yes, we do have positive Mu's against these decks, but plague SMASHES them down. And since gobbos and elves and recently even merfolks are a relevant part of the italian meta (for the aggro section, above, say, zoo), it's a card that i like to see in my sb.


I didn't haev to play the BURN or ANT deck, so the CB/tops never came in. I've decided those are pretty much the only match-ups I bring them in for.

That's exactly what i fear...Ajani is a solid card against aggroloam, it wins the game by itself... that's why i'd like to have him 2x in my sb. The cb/top engine is amazing against burn ando combo (maybe a little slow against combo, mais c'est la vie), but pulls ajani out and I'm a little disappointed with this. I have to test (after the exams :frown: )


For those of you convinced that Elspeth isn't that great, I'm glad to hear it. That is less Elspeth the rest of us have to worry about. It is one of the most (if not THE most) powerful cards in the current landstill environment, and you all are being slow to realize that.

Entirely quoted. Period. I'm glad to have recognized the power of this card before it reached 30$ and more! :tongue:

[klaus]

Please quit bashing on Elspeth just like that & start testing her (thoroughly).

I don't care if you don't like her afterwards, even though you prolly will, it's just that I hate people going "boo!" without having taken her for a couple of rides before.

[rockout]

For those of you convinced that Elspeth isn't that great, I'm glad to hear it. That is less Elspeth the rest of us have to worry about. It is one of the most (if not THE most) powerful cards in the current landstill environment, and you all are being slow to realize that. I wouldn't play her without Decree in the deck as well. It is the decree protecting elspeth even further that causes most "scoops".

First of, what he said. I'd rather you guys not play Elspeth. I ripped both of mine out of packs and wouldn't trade them for the world.

[Rehallek]

First of, what he said. I'd rather you guys not play Elspeth. I ripped both of mine out of packs and wouldn't trade them for the world.

Actually I got the second one youre playing in a trade Mike. But still Elspeth is savage. I've seen it in action. Difficult to deal with and makes tokens or pumps. A must answer card that is difficult to answer with current cards around.

[gieli0]

This is my UWr landstill deck but as you can see I can realy use some tips.

main
1x Crucible of Worlds
2x Engineered Explosives
1x Eternal Dragon
4x Standstill
2x Humility
2x Oblivion Ring
4x Brainstorm
4x Counterspell
2x Fact or Fiction
4x Force of Will
3x Spell Snare Instant
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Academy Ruins
1x Dust Bowl
3x Flooded Strand
3x Island
4x Mishra’s Factory
1x Mountain
2x Plains
2x Polluted Delta
4x Tundra
2x Volcanic Island
2x Decree of Justice
2x Wrath of God
side
4x Tormod’s Crypt
3x Runed Halo
3x Red Elemental Blast
2x Echoing Truth
3x Stifle Instant

I choose for the red splash to get my explosives on 3. Underground Sea's are also to expensive for me, I tried to stick to the old school UW landstill.

[mossivo1986]

This is my UWr landstill deck but as you can see I can realy use some tips.

main
1x Crucible of Worlds
2x Engineered Explosives
1x Eternal Dragon
4x Standstill
2x Humility
2x Oblivion Ring
4x Brainstorm
4x Counterspell
2x Fact or Fiction
4x Force of Will
3x Spell Snare Instant
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Academy Ruins
1x Dust Bowl
3x Flooded Strand
3x Island
4x Mishra’s Factory
1x Mountain
2x Plains
2x Polluted Delta
4x Tundra
2x Volcanic Island
2x Decree of Justice
2x Wrath of God
side
4x Tormod’s Crypt
3x Runed Halo
3x Red Elemental Blast
2x Echoing Truth
3x Stifle Instant

I choose for the red splash to get my explosives on 3. Underground Sea's are also to expensive for me, I tried to stick to the old school UW landstill.


you might consider running 2-1 splits of both blasts. It will save you from pates, and as a cheap generalizes answer its effective. Also stifle/ tormods crypt need to be removed in favor of relic. Theres also no reason for 1 md mountain. Unless you randomly draw it your not really helping yourself at all.

[from Cairo]

I'd agree with cutting the Mountain, probably for a Plateau (Allowing you access to a W/R source from Eternal Dragon and Flooded Strand). I'd cut a Polluted Delta for the 4th Flooded Strand as well, since there is no X/B lands you want to fetch, yet there are Basic Plains and ideally a Plateau that could offer more options. Otherwise your main deck is pretty close to what I'm using for UWb, only with 2 O Rings instead of 2 Vindicate, and your playing 1 E Dragon and 4th Counterspell in two spots that I have Tolaria West and a 3rd Engineered Explosives.

For the SB, I'd cut Tormod's Crypt, Stifle and Echoing Truth; for 3 Relics of Progenitus, 4 Meddling Mage, and 2 Firespout or Pyroclasm. I think the Relics work better at maintaining control of your opponents graveyard. Crypt can be devastating, but it's a 1 shot deal. An early Relic, especially if you are able to get a 2nd one going later, will usually lock graveyard strategies out. Assuming Stifle is boarded in for Combo matches, I'd personally rather have Meddling Mage. It pairs well with Runed Halo for giving you alot of threat density and usually will slow combo down digging for multiple answers that you can craft a strong hand to counter them, or sometimes just ride a Mage and Factory for a fast win, with Spell Snare and FoW providing back up. Pyroclasm seems like a good addition for agro matches, Goblins and such where you're otherwise sort of light on sweepers with only 2 Wrath of God.

[Frid]

I have tested relic on the SB and i didnt feel confortable with it, i mean vs ichorid is a bit slow and vs threshold i dont really board it it, maybe im doing it wrong.

How do you SB agains:

Goblins
Aggro loam
threshold

[rockout]

I like relic better versus a wider range of decks. I used to play crypt when Ichorid was everywhere and now that I have relic I don't really fear it all too much. I can bring in meddling mage, runed halo, and relic against ichorid. Also, a single relic shrinks goyf and kills vore and gets rid of their engine/loam against loam. Reusable against survival, if you choose to bring in gy hate. Does better things against the thresh match because of being reusable. Plus it cantrips. Landstill does love drawing cards. All around, I like it more than crypt.

[jazzykat]

@The UWr list: so you weaken your manabase for REB??? Why don't you try: Gainsay, Disrupt, Divert etc. and keep your manabase super tight otherwise get some more red in there to really use the color.

[Viscosity]

To the decklist above ^^

Oblivion ring is not a good choice when running EEs IMO. I often lose crucible to an EE, in your deck you'd lose crucible and your own O-ring. Ouch! If you feel you need the permanent removal, then get seas and run vindicate. Or drop 2 O-Ring for 1 wrath, and another EE.

[Viscosity]

A must answer card that is difficult to answer with current cards around.

exactly

And unlike most Plainswalkers, both her abilities ADD loyalty. So the ultimate is always on the horizon. Elspeth is not a "win more" car at all.

It is more like a "Hey, I was losing, and now this game is easy because of one card" card.

[Citrus-God]

exactly

And unlike most Plainswalkers, both her abilities ADD loyalty. So the ultimate is always on the horizon. Elspeth is not a "win more" car at all.

It is more like a "Hey, I was losing, and now this game is easy because of one card" card.

It's not win-more, but it's a card that prevents you from losing. It can't help you much from recovering from a losing position, but it helps you win topdeck wars and helps make trouble match-ups like Threshold easier, especially post-board.

[Serbitar]

How is threshhold a 'trouble-matchup' for Landstill? Don't we run more removal than they run threats? At least with UW(b) Landstill I don't remember loosing to Thresh

[Citrus-God]

How is threshhold a 'trouble-matchup' for Landstill? Don't we run more removal than they run threats? At least with UW(b) Landstill I don't remember loosing to Thresh

Then you've obviously never played post-board against Gaddock Teeg.

[rockout]

Also, some thresh builds run back to basics. Game 1 isn't that bad. They may sneak a game 1 win in every once in a while but it's the games 2 and 3 that can be brutal. Teeg + B2B can make a grown man wheep openly. True Story.

[Citrus-God]

Also, some thresh builds run back to basics. Game 1 isn't that bad. They may sneak a game 1 win in every once in a while but it's the games 2 and 3 that can be brutal. Teeg + B2B can make a grown man wheep openly. True Story.

And they board in Rhox War Monks and Jotun Grunts. Fun, isn't it?

[rockout]

And they board in Rhox War Monks and Jotun Grunts. Fun, isn't it?

Careful, the tears are forming. I think it's mainly the white splash citrus-god and I are commenting on and maybe 4C with teeg sb. I guess any thresh deck could run B2B, but mainly the white splash is the hardest match up of the 3 different color splash thresh decks.

Edit: 300th post nice

[Citrus-God]

Careful, the tears are forming. I think it's mainly the white splash citrus-god and I are commenting on and maybe 4C with teeg sb. I guess any thresh deck could run B2B, but mainly the white splash is the hardest match up of the 3 different color splash thresh decks.

Edit: 300th post nice

5c Thresh isn't fun either; they board in Teegs, REB and Rhox War Monks.

I've tested against 4c Thresh as well; Confidant is a bitch. Let that thing resolve on Turn 2, and the thing friggin' makes you lose that game. Spending a WoG on it doesn't help. Although this doesn't matter Game 1, it's quite deadly-post-board because of the presence of Grip.

[i_need_the_extra_turns]

Versus thresh I often board in 2 random extirpates for their grips etc. and it works very well for me.
It is really very easy to hate their grips. Sure teeg can be a bitch, but I see the tempo thresh matchup (ugb, ugr) more difficult than the slow ugw thresh with balance for example.
Well, B2Basics can also be difficult, but I won't fear their grips.^^

[e_hawk77]

This is the list i will be running tomorrow. At the monster den's 1.5 (MN).

1 Eternal Dragon
2 Decree of Justice

2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

4 Brainstorm
2 Cunning Wish
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Swords to Plowshares

2 Wrath of God

2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Engineered Explosives

3 Standstill
2 Back to Basics
2 Humility

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Tundra
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
6 Island
2 Plains

Sideboard
3 Dismantling Blow
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Meddling Mage
3 Tormad's Crypt
2 Hydroblast
1 Swords to Plowshares

I only run 3 Standstill due to the fact that i keep siding them out. Fact or Fiction felt like a better draw spell most of the time. The back to basics has never hurt me, as I am in control of when it goes down. And I can win throw Elspeth, Decree or Dragon.

I will give you a tourney report later tomorrow night or friday. Tell me what you think.

[Citrus-God]

Versus thresh I often board in 2 random extirpates for their grips etc. and it works very well for me.
It is really very easy to hate their grips. Sure teeg can be a bitch, but I see the tempo thresh matchup (ugb, ugr) more difficult than the slow ugw thresh with balance for example.
Well, B2Basics can also be difficult, but I won't fear their grips.^^

I often use leave Cunning Wishes in the Sideboard to combat the fear known as Krosan Grip. As much as I would love to resolve a Humility, sometimes they board in more threats than usual. Having a resolved Runed Halo isn't going to swing the match around. You could dig for a Cunning Wish to find another Humility via ETutor, but that means keeping Counterbalance and Teegs off the board. Personally, I'd say the best plan is to board in 3 Krosan Grips, 2 Chainer's Edict and a 3rd FoF in place of 2 Humilities, 3 Cunning Wish and 1 Brainstorm. My plan here is to keep the board clean of threats (War Monks, Enforcers, Mongeese and Goyfs) and Protection and card equity (Teegs, SDT, Counterbalance), meanwhile, I make a ridiculous amount of land drops and start chaining card advantage via FoF and Standstills. When I hit 9 lands, I will start hardcasting DoJs without mercy (assuming Goyfs or Enforcers aren't in play).

I personally believe that Tempo Thresh is my easiest match-up, due to their light threat density. I also run only 4 fetchlands. Doesn't matter much to me. Also, Stifling Eternal Dragons is a terrible play on their part; we should know how a small mistake like that can make me win this match up. This is also a match-up where I'm more amp to board in Extirpates against, mainly because their protection for their threats is awful. Extirpate also removes Wastelands, which is vital to their disruption plan.

@e-Hawk: Dude, is this Eric Hawkins? What's up, it's Melvin? You should cut a Dismantling Blow in the SB for a Return to Dust. This will for sure help your Stax MU. I think you should cut both your Polluted Deltas; being susceptible to Stifle sucks. Run another Basic Plains and another Basic Island to help with B2B and LD. Also, find room in your Sideboard for another Fact or Fiction, ETutor (To find CoW, B2B, and Humility) and another B2B. Those cards will go a long way.

[rockout]

@ehawk: What kind of meta are you in where you need 3 dismantling blows? The norm in a cunning wish side board is 1. 3/3 split of standstill and swords should be 4 and 4. I can understand the drop of 1 standstill for your 2nd wish/fof but how can you justify 3 swords and 1 in the board? You have to pay 3 to find it and 1 to cast it instead of a simple 1 mana remove a threat. It seems really awkward to me. Hopefully it will work out for you. I will be waiting for the tournament report.

[from Cairo]

Yea in the UW list I would cut B2B #2 and Crucible #2 for Standstill #4 and Swords #4. In places of the Swords on the board I'd add an Enlightened Tutor to give the option of wishing to pull up a silver bullet Enchantment.

[mercenarybdu]

I have tested relic on the SB and i didnt feel confortable with it, i mean vs ichorid is a bit slow and vs threshold i dont really board it it, maybe im doing it wrong.

How do you SB agains:

Goblins
Aggro loam
threshold

Relic is the best mass grave removal in a long time. I threw in a pair in my SB for the heck of dealing with grave oriented decks. In addition to that, it gives me a card in return after blowing up everything.

Then if I don't need to pull the trigger immediately, the tap ability helps in bleeding that players grave. Although you won't be able to pick the card with it, it does lessen the amounts.

If one can't afford Crypt, then the Relic is the next best thing that is available to boot around.

Against Goblins, it only works if they are running the Bidding tactic against you, other wise i wouldn't board it in at all.

Against the other two decks, it can burn the grave without a darn (just because most modern loam decks run stuff in the SB that prevent cards from targeting the grave).

All in all, i see you are using it wrong.

[i_need_the_extra_turns]

I often use leave Cunning Wishes in the Sideboard to combat the fear known as Krosan Grip. As much as I would love to resolve a Humility, sometimes they board in more threats than usual. Having a resolved Runed Halo isn't going to swing the match around. You could dig for a Cunning Wish to find another Humility via ETutor, but that means keeping Counterbalance and Teegs off the board. Personally, I'd say the best plan is to board in 3 Krosan Grips, 2 Chainer's Edict and a 3rd FoF in place of 2 Humilities, 3 Cunning Wish and 1 Brainstorm. My plan here is to keep the board clean of threats (War Monks, Enforcers, Mongeese and Goyfs) and Protection and card equity (Teegs, SDT, Counterbalance), meanwhile, I make a ridiculous amount of land drops and start chaining card advantage via FoF and Standstills. When I hit 9 lands, I will start hardcasting DoJs without mercy (assuming Goyfs or Enforcers aren't in play).


I dont think that this the correct boarding plan. Maybe we have to look at a concrete list, but I would never board out humility vs thresh, except I have a special boarding plan like goyfs come in. Humility totally wrecks thresh, and only because they have after boarding an out vs humility I would not put my humilities in my sideboard. Instead u can try to give them more targets than they can fight with their grips or just extirpate their grips.
Also I think, balance is not a big issue for landstill except they have the balance online AND a fast clock, which is for every deck a problematic situation. So I dont know if u need your grips.
Boarding additional spot removal in vs their teegs etc is correct.

[Viscosity]

Relic Vs Crypt:
First turn relic is very nice against anything. But you can't recur it with Academy Ruins or fetch it with Tolaria West, so I like crypt better.

Decklist with B2B main:
Just.. Why? I understand you run mass fetches and 8 basics. But what are you hoping to accomplish with so many non-basics as well? Seems like anti-synergy.

Wouldn't the fact that your deck is strong vs B2B and Moon be enough? Why play them in the main? What decks are you trying to beat with it? Some of landstill's hardest games are vs decks that play only basics of their own, so your main deck B2B just made you suck even more against those. Doesn't the crucible/wasteland plan work well enough against the non-basic decks?

[mossivo1986]

Relic Vs Crypt:
First turn relic is very nice against anything. But you can't recur it with Academy Ruins or fetch it with Tolaria West, so I like crypt better.


The idea behind relic is not that you need to break it immidiately. It's a card that you want to be annoying with. eot tap, eot tap, ect. The only time you want to break it is if per say against survival they have their graveyard manipulation set up at the end of your turn when they go off. You then procede to net your extra card, but often times what happens is people will lay it when they want to set it off, which I feel is a HUGE mistake. Just removing a card every turn shuts off or hinders alot of the decks in this format. Ta cries to relic, and 2 relics tapping is often gg alone without anything else. Against threshhold keeping their geese 1/1's isnt overly difficult when your removing a card per round, and keeping goyfs at a reasonable level even when sniping your own cards to lower its power level is very effective as well. Relic turns from being a one time mass removal spell to a stabilizer and almost a suito fog if you will. Also you mentioned that it doesn't have synergy with ruins. I disagree. If you play relic for it's first ability "consistent graveyard removal" and your opponent uses a disenchant type of effect, then just return it without activating the second ability. This allows your to continue your rain of graveyard terror!!! Now once in a while as I said before you will be forced to pop your relic and when you do you net cards, but on of the biggest mistakes I've made with playing relic is sacing them too early. I lost a mono blue control match to mantain card advantage and keep pace with mr. x4 stroke x3-4 fof I had to kantrip like crazy. Little did I know he was running the 7 drop sorcery out of shadowmoore that makes 5/5 flyers and has retrace. Thanx opening hand with two relics :(. Just pace yourself and you'll win more games just by seeing additional information. Don't overextend when you don't really need to. It's obviously a common rule that all magic players try to obide by.

[Viscosity]

^ Yeah that is all obvious.

I guess my point is that you should have at least ONE crypt on your board for the recursion and tutoring from Tolaria West. I'd never run a sideboard with only relic.

I suppose 2 relic and 1 crypt is the best balance.

[rockout]

^ Yeah that is all obvious.

I guess my point is that you should have at least ONE crypt on your board for the recursion and tutoring from Tolaria West. I'd never run a sideboard with only relic.

I suppose 2 relic and 1 crypt is the best balance.

Splitting up your gy hate isn't necessary if you aren't running tolaria west or you don't fear your gy hate getting needled. All in all, run relic. It's better.

[Citrus-God]

I dont think that this the correct boarding plan.

At least explain why this boarding plan is bad.


Maybe we have to look at a concrete list, but I would never board out humility vs thresh, except I have a special boarding plan like goyfs come in.

They board removal in for Game 3. If you board out your Goyfs, you're making cards they board against you good against you.


Humility totally wrecks thresh, and only because they have after boarding an out vs humility I would not put my humilities in my sideboard. Instead u can try to give them more targets than they can fight with their grips or just extirpate their grips.

What makes you think it's so easy to use a Humility as bait and Extirpate their Grips anyway? They'll overrun you with threats if you even attempt this plan. You play Humility around Turn 4. Wow, great play. EOT, Grip. Now they just move to attack step and drop Counterbalance on Main phase 2. Goes back to you, you want to Extirpate their Krosan Grips now? Do you want to attempt something so hopeless just so you can resolve a 2nd Humility? Especially when you only run 2 copies? Wait... you say you run Runed Halos too? Wait? Do I see the Thresh player ignoring Runed Halo because they also boarded in additional threats?

I won't claim my boarding plan is right, but in testing so far, it's the best that I've got. Yes, I've tried the approach of baiting Krosan Grips so I can Extirpate them. It's slow. If I want to Extirpate something, it's threats that matter; like Goyfs or Geese. Extirpating Krosan Grip and dropping 2 Runed Halos isn't going to stop Mystic Enforcer, Teegs and Rhox War Monks from killing you. If you drop another Humility, you've probably won like a few games and lost many games. If you do beat Thresh, you've beaten an inexperienced and bad Thresh player. Good Thresh players won't hand the games over to you that easily; they think ahead of you and know that you will end up executing some sub-par plan.


Boarding additional spot removal in vs their teegs etc is correct.

Counterbalance resolves. Boo... Now you need to board Krosan Grips of your own, just to remove Counterbalance and to keep Teeg from dominating the game.

[i_need_the_extra_turns]

At least explain why this boarding plan is bad.


They board removal in for Game 3. If you board out your Goyfs, you're making cards they board against you good against you.


Sure, they will board in again their removal in game 3 and you should board them out.



What makes you think it's so easy to use a Humility as bait and Extirpate their Grips anyway? They'll overrun you with threats if you even attempt this plan.

I won nearly 20 matches in tournament with this strategy.
When they will try to overrun u with threats, why is that a problem? U play sweepers.



You play Humility around Turn 4. Wow, great play. EOT, Grip. Now they just move to attack step and drop Counterbalance on Main phase 2.

That would be obviously a bad play from you. You shouldn't 100% rely on your humility, but its the perfect finisher. So you always have to clear their board.



Goes back to you, you want to Extirpate their Krosan Grips now? Do you want to attempt something so hopeless just so you can resolve a 2nd Humility? Especially when you only run 2 copies? Wait... you say you run Runed Halos too? Wait? Do I see the Thresh player ignoring Runed Halo because they also boarded in additional threats?

See above.

My problem with your boarding plan is that you board out a abolutely perfect threat against thresh just because they have after boarding an out against it.
It's like, "I don't play this card because they can counter it.." huihui.
With this argumentation why doesnt the thresh player board out their counterbalances? He knows that you board in grips and their balances die to grips... Its because balance is a good card and a nice threat that can hinder you and highly influence the game.

I haven't played against a thresh deck with that kind of boarding plan in a competitive environment.

[Smog]

I've playtested back and forth between a UW and UWb build and though I do not doubt the power of 3color EE, Vindicate, and E Plagues in the board, I think I'm leaning more towards the slightly more stable UW build. Any opinions are welcome. The only deck choices I'm leaning away from currently is implementing any kind of wishboarding. The two Jaces in the board are for the mirror / control match up.


// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [U] Tundra
3 [TE] Wasteland
2 [IA] Plains (1)
2 [IA] Island (2)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins

// Creatures
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [8E] Wrath of God
4 [OV] Swords to Plowshares
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [IA] Counterspell
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [CST] Brainstorm
2 [FNM] Fact or Fiction
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [10E] Crucible of Worlds

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [SHM] Runed Halo
SB: 2 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
SB: 2 [LRW] Jace Beleren


edit: I'm tentatively considering 2 humilities (coupled with the elspeth for theoretical indestructibility). I know that humility has been losing alot of popularity due to kgrip and other popular removal, but does anyone have any experience playing it with the newly (somewhat) popular elspy? I've always liked crucible but it (and wastelands now that I think about it) just seem clunky anymore.

[Citrus-God]

Sure, they will board in again their removal in game 3 and you should board them out.

Then your post-board game is slightly weakened.



I won nearly 20 matches in tournament with this strategy.
When they will try to overrun u with threats, why is that a problem? U play sweepers.

You play 3 sweepers. EE doesn't count, considering they have quite a diverse array of threats.



That would be obviously a bad play from you. You shouldn't 100% rely on your humility, but its the perfect finisher. So you always have to clear their board.

It's hard to consider Humility a finisher; it may end games, but this only applies Game 1. It's only for tempo advantage post-board, and at that point, you're better off playing non-permanent based removal.


My problem with your boarding plan is that you board out a abolutely perfect threat against thresh just because they have after boarding an out against it.

Do you see that you're using the word "absolute"? This means that to the Thresh player, through their subjective view, it's their ultimate bane. But the problem is that Humility isn't a threat... it's a Memory Lapse that makes you tap 4 mana.


It's like, "I don't play this card because they can counter it.." huihui.
With this argumentation why doesnt the thresh player board out their counterbalances? He knows that you board in grips and their balances die to grips... Its because balance is a good card and a nice threat that can hinder you and highly influence the game.

Because they actually have actual threats. Counterbalance just merely protects them. It also doesn't help your case that they will board Krosan Grips in against you. Krosan Grips answer Humility and protect Counterbalance from opposing Grips.

But the thing here is that Counterbalance influences the game better than Humility. Thresh can sculpt their hands earlier in the game compared to you, and they can still apply pressure efficiently without Counterbalance. Gaddock Teeg, REB, Thoughtseize, Rhox War Monk, Mystic Enforcer etc, etc... You can only win off small edges; like if they were mana screwed earlier in the game for 1- 2 turns, or if you make them board in dead cards like Krosan Grips against you. Which is why I board Humility out.


I haven't played against a thresh deck with that kind of boarding plan in a competitive environment.

It's a competitive environment; you can't stereotype that all Threshold decks with Counterbalance have the exact same strategies. I played in a metagame with lots of 43 Land and Vial Goblins one time, and I answered that meta by playing a Red splash in Landstill in addition to UWB, for 4 Pyroclasms and 4 Price of Progress.

But for sure, if they run UGW, and maybe even B, they'll board in Gaddock Teegs and/or Confidants.

[Viscosity]

SMOG:
Not a bad list. Personally, I'm not a fan of 4 x Spell Snare, and I LOVE 3 stifles. Stifling a first turn fetch is very good as it gives landstill some early tempo and allows the 4cc spells to be effectively faster.

You also run 2 crucible, which personally, I do like. But I would consider cutting one wasteland for a Tolaria West. Then cut one relic on the SB for one crypt.

Tolaria West can then be used to fetch: Academy Ruins, Wasteland, Mishra, EE, or Crypt. Also, you can transmute while standstill is in play. EG > go get a mishra or something.

I also prefer to run 3x decree as it more often allows me to throw a standstill out even if my opponent already played a threat. If you don't want to play mana acceleration (which I am a proponent of), then I'd change your deck like so. Without acceleration, I wouldn't add any more 4 drops like humility. Plus Decree is sooo good in the control mirror. Then again, I run mox diamond and city of traitors, so it is usually more powerful. So I dunno...

-2 spell snare
-1 Counterspell
-1 Wasteland
-1 Eternal Dragon

+ 3 Stifle
+ 1 Tolaria West
+ 1 Decree

SB:
-1 relic
+1 crypt

[Smog]

...

Thanks, I agree with most of your points. And I'm going to try a Tolaria West in place of a wasteland, as well as getting one tormods in for a single relic (a change I was considering anyway due to the recursion possibility with academy ruins) I also agree that stifle is very strong, particularly when you time walk away their fetch but I prefer my counters at 4. Play style I guess.

[rockout]

I have a question for all of you Landstill players: What do you board in against the mirror?

I was thinking: -4 Standstill -2 Decre // +4 Mage +2 Ajani
You mage naming vindicate or something else depending on your situation. Since you are boarding out Standstill you have to board out decree since it isn't nearly as good in the mirror as a planeswalker. I think the mirror is one of the match ups I have tested the least. I know from just playing the deck what is good and what is better, but a little discussion never hurt anyone.

[diffy]

Since you are boarding out Standstill you have to board out decree since it isn't nearly as good in the mirror as a planeswalker.

Don't board out Decree of Justice in the mirror - it's just that good. Take out Spell Snare or don't bring in Meddling Mages (which aren't what they used to be anyway, especially not against the Tempo Builds), take out Wrath of God or Humility or anything, but don't take out Decree of Justice... an uncounterable, instant-speed, threat is just that good, especially since most of your games are going to get quite drawn-out. Not as flashy as a Planeswalker but still damn good.

Edit: I found your list (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=308889&postcount=827).

With that particular build, I'd go:
+1 Crucible of Worlds
+2 Ajani Goldmane
-3 Standstill

If you want to get oldschool techy, roll with an additional
-1 Standstill
-2 Wrath of God
+3 Meddling Mage

[Citrus-God]

There are also old school Landstill players like me and Konsultant that leave our Standstills in. Only do this if you run 3x Wastelands in the maindeck though, otherwise you will not be able to efficiently sit behind your own Standstills.

DoJ: Never board out DoJ in the mirror or Dreadstill. Ever.

[rockout]

All solid points. Thanks guys.

One last question I offer to the landstill gods: How good is crucible and does it deserve 2 sb slots?

Before you flame me, I know crucible is good. However, when I used to 1/1 split of crucible and eternal dragon it won me games that I already won. It would come down turns 6-9 where not too many decks can beat landstill after the early game. Does it deserve those crucial sb slots? It would go in place of say relic #3 and mage #4.

[Smog]

I've completely taken out crucible and wasteland and used half of the slots to further stabalize my mana base and the rest for a wider counter suite. I'm sure other's think I'm nuts but I've had nothing but smoother games and more success since. Maybe it's just because I hate wasteland.

[rockout]

I've completely taken out crucible and wasteland and used half of the slots to further stabalize my mana base and the rest for a wider counter suite. I'm sure other's think I'm nuts but I've had nothing but smoother games and more success since. Maybe it's just because I hate wasteland.

I hate facing wasteland, but I love playing it. It helps to break your standstill battles in the mirror and other decks that run man lands. Being able to color screw someone can gain you a huge tempo advantage.

[konsultant]

There are also old school Landstill players like me and Konsultant that leave our Standstills in. Only do this if you run 3x Wastelands in the maindeck though, otherwise you will not be able to efficiently sit behind your own Standstills.

DoJ: Never board out DoJ in the mirror or Dreadstill. Ever.

Card advantage wins against everything even the mirror. I wouldn't take out Standstills unless you are playing against 43 Land or Ichorid. If you don't have the 3x Waste or 3x Decree then you should have more Plainswalkers than the builds that do play the Wastes and Decrees. I usually find the first person to draw off of a Standstill in the mirror will be the eventual winner.

[rockout]

Card advantage wins against everything even the mirror. I wouldn't take out Standstills unless you are playing against 43 Land or Ichorid. If you don't have the 3x Waste or 3x Decree then you should have more Plainswalkers than the builds that do play the Wastes and Decrees. I usually find the first person to draw off of a Standstill in the mirror will be the eventual winner.

Ofcourse that makes sense, someone is not going to break a standstill unless they are losing. And breaking a standstill just puts you that much further behind.

[FredMaster]

Oftentimes I board out Standstill against Decks with Vial and cheap critters, such as Merfolk, Goblins and Affinity. Standstill is not good enough against those I think. You will have to clean the board not just from creatures but also from their Vial till Standstill is somewhat okay.

[rockout]

@viscosity: I don't think you need 3 decrees to succesfully cast a standstill facing down a threat. I run 2 decrees and I throw standstill out all the time. I definitely feel 2 decrees is the lowest number a landstill deck should go. I'm really sure where I was going with this but I'm at work ill finish the thought at half time.

Edit: I guess is no landstill player should be afraid to ever drop a standstill in the face of a fairly small threat.

[Citrus-God]

Oftentimes I board out Standstill against Decks with Vial and cheap critters, such as Merfolk, Goblins and Affinity. Standstill is not good enough against those I think. You will have to clean the board not just from creatures but also from their Vial till Standstill is somewhat okay.

I leave Standstills in against Vial Goblins, Affinity and Merfolk.

[rockout]

I think it might have been konsultant that said in an earlier post: there is no need to neuter yourself in those match ups (that fred mentioned) . Just meaning you still need to draw cards to win those games and they won't always have t1 vial.

[Citrus-God]

I think it might have been konsultant that said in an earlier post: there is no need to neuter yourself in those match ups (that fred mentioned) . Just meaning you still need to draw cards to win those games and they won't always have t1 vial.

EE also makes AEther Vial look weak. If you board in BEB, the games are even more one-sided. The only card you should ever worry about is Price of Progress, but Goblin players havent picked up on that yet, which is good.

[Master Shake]

I've noticed a large number of the posts with lists have started using 2 Elspeths, I just recently stopped using two and cut back to one. I seldom want to see her in an opening hand, and never want to see two. What are your experiences with two Elspeths?

[rockout]

EE also makes AEther Vial look weak. If you board in BEB, the games are even more one-sided. The only card you should ever worry about is Price of Progress, but Goblin players havent picked up on that yet, which is good.

Thank god people haven't started running PoP. That card is a one sided savage beating on crack.


I've noticed a large number of the posts with lists have started using 2 Elspeths, I just recently stopped using two and cut back to one. I seldom want to see her in an opening hand, and never want to see two. What are your experiences with two Elspeths?

If you draw two, you play one, they somehow deal with it, which almost never happens, you play the second one and win the game. It's pretty simple.

[mossivo1986]

Thank god people haven't started running PoP. That card is a one sided savage beating on crack.



If you draw two, you play one, they somehow deal with it, which almost never happens, you play the second one and win the game. It's pretty simple.

In the mirror its also very difficult to beat an opposing elspeth let alone 2.

[Citrus-God]

In the mirror its also very difficult to beat an opposing elspeth let alone 2.

Indestructible soldier tokens is pretty raw.

[freakish777]

In the mirror its also very difficult to beat an opposing elspeth let alone 2.

How exactly were you planning on having 2 planeswalkers out with the same subtype?

[Jak]

He was talking about them getting rid of one and then having to get rid of another.

[rockout]

How exactly were you planning on having 2 planeswalkers out with the same subtype?

I obviously cheat :wink:

I'd like to shift the discussion towards match ups that we are not too happy to see sitting across from us. Every deck has their nemesis and deck that just gives you a lot of trouble. I guess I'll start by saying: merfolk i heard islandwalk + swarming + counters are good, dragon stompy for the random I win button in the form of t1 magus (sometimes), goblins just for being goblins, aggro loam game 1, survival for it's insane engine, burn for being homosexual.

As I've progressed as a player, I don't really fear too many match ups (there's a reason wizards gave us a 15 card sb), but you playtest the good and the bad. You have the strats down on how to beat a particular match up and sometimes it just does not get there. It happens to the best. O well.

Share your heart to heart with each other. I want to see tears! Blood sweat and Tears!

[Smog]

I'd love some tips for handling goblins both game one and post-board. I play straight UW so e. plague isn't an option. I really don't know what to do against them. Regardless of whether or not I can keep vial off the table, they just run me over, wrath of god or not.

[ChiiMagic]

BEB + STP to keep Goblin Lackey from hitting you turn 2 is imperative. After you stop that little shitter from dropping a friend or two into play, you should be ok. I've never really had trouble dealing with the deck after you survive the first few turns. Their only relevant spells after that are Goblin Ringleader, Seige Gang, and thats about it. Vial needs to get an EE dropped on it before they can use it to power in their above mentioned spells.
I have always had trouble with that piece of shit Burn deck. This is more of a rant on it than asking for tips on beating it, because I already know SBing in like 2 COP Red is more than enough to completely dispatch the deck, but I really don't want to waste the SB slots because it is so stupidly specific for a single awful deck.

[mossivo1986]

BEB + STP to keep Goblin Lackey from hitting you turn 2 is imperative. After you stop that little shitter from dropping a friend or two into play, you should be ok. I've never really had trouble dealing with the deck after you survive the first few turns. Their only relevant spells after that are Goblin Ringleader, Seige Gang, and thats about it. Vial needs to get an EE dropped on it before they can use it to power in their above mentioned spells.
I have always had trouble with that piece of shit Burn deck. This is more of a rant on it than asking for tips on beating it, because I already know SBing in like 2 COP Red is more than enough to completely dispatch the deck, but I really don't want to waste the SB slots because it is so stupidly specific for a single awful deck.

The list I saw of yours:


// Lands
4 [u] Tundra
3 [TE] Wasteland
2 [IA] Plains (1)
2 [IA] Island (2)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins

// Creatures
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [8E] Wrath of God
4 [OV] Swords to Plowshares
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [IA] Counterspell
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [CST] Brainstorm
2 [FNM] Fact or Fiction
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [10E] Crucible of Worlds

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [SHM] Runed Halo
SB: 2 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
SB: 2 [LRW] Jace Beleren

Looking at your landbase 21 lands is not enough. I personally run 22 and thats the bare I would EVER run in landstill, plus im running ponder as well as brainstorm.

If I were you I'd smooth your base down to something like this:


4x Flooded Strand
4x tundra
4x Plains
4x Island
3x wasteland
3x mishra
1x ruins

This gives you major consistency, and also makes it easy for you to trick it out if you want to.

-One key thing to remember is that you want 3 wrath unless your running vindicate or a 2-1 split with humility "wish version."

-You deffinately do not need 4x spell snare. You want to either go with a standard approach when it comes to the extra 2 slots "you should run 2-3 spell snare, deffinately not four." Or you can do some cute stuff with the extra slots given. I prefer to go more absolute in approach and maximize draw "ponder/ enlightened tutor" but basicly its whatever approach you really want.

-I would personally recommend cutting one of your crucibles as they are virtually dead top decks unless your already winning the game in most matches. Work more on maximizing your reach or creating unfavorable situations in some other way.

This is a very generalized approach to landstill, but it will help you understand the basic economics of the deck better.

23

4x Flooded Strand
4x tundra
4x Plains
4x Island
3x wasteland
3x mishra
1x ruins

4
// Creatures
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 [SC] Eternal Dragon

33
// Spells
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [8E] Wrath of God
4 [OV] Swords to Plowshares
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
2 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [IA] Counterspell
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [CST] Brainstorm
2 [FNM] Fact or Fiction
4 [AL] Force of Will
1[10E] Crucible of Worlds

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Meddling Mage
SB: 4 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Ajani Goldmane
SB: 3 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Runed Halo

This Should help your Goblins matchup quite a bit, though the true deffinition of playing a deck and winning a deck comes in how the pilot plays, but by general ruling you should handle goblins rather nicely with this build.

Remember that the only cards your REALLY afraid of are ringleader, Lackey. Stop those and you basicly win. Other then that good luck :)

[mossivo1986]

BEB + STP to keep Goblin Lackey from hitting you turn 2 is imperative. After you stop that little shitter from dropping a friend or two into play, you should be ok. I've never really had trouble dealing with the deck after you survive the first few turns. Their only relevant spells after that are Goblin Ringleader, Seige Gang, and thats about it. Vial needs to get an EE dropped on it before they can use it to power in their above mentioned spells.
I have always had trouble with that piece of shit Burn deck. This is more of a rant on it than asking for tips on beating it, because I already know SBing in like 2 COP Red is more than enough to completely dispatch the deck, but I really don't want to waste the SB slots because it is so stupidly specific for a single awful deck.


Get to four mana counter anything that starts with pri and ends with ogress and you should be straight. Cast ajani= win game. With the freed up mana don't be foolish and if you do tap out make sure you have force in hand and a comfotable life. The key is staying out of 8 life range. Thats dangerous territory.

[Misplayer]

I got wrecked by Goyf Sligh twice today but did not have Ajani out of the side. In 4 games I "stabilized" at <10 life every time which was easily within burn range. Other than 2x Ajani and 4x BEB I'm not sure what else I can do than take my lumps against it.

On a more positive note, those were my only losses all day (same deck both times) and I came in 2nd at a local tournament.

[ChiiMagic]

Ok, so I haven't tried him out at all, but do you guys board Ajani in matchups other than burn? Like my entire issue is that I do not want to waste SB slots on a single matchup, rather than a strategy. I still run the board that was on Starcity, because that is the SB that has performed the best for me in the largest tournaments.
4 REB
4 BEB
4 Meddling Mage
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
2 Tormod's Crypt
REB literally comes in against any deck playing blue. BEB comes in against Goblins, random zoo, Dragon Stompy, and Burn. Meddling Mage comes in against so many strategies besides the obvious matches of combo. Disk rapes Threshold, Dragon Stompy, Enchantress, Stax, and anything I can't get EE with. Tormod's Crypts dominate the mirror, Dredge, and all the Loam decks.
I like to have my bases covered, so I have been floating the idea of using Ajani, but only if he has more uses than the burn match.

[Citrus-God]

I'd love some tips for handling goblins both game one and post-board. I play straight UW so e. plague isn't an option. I really don't know what to do against them. Regardless of whether or not I can keep vial off the table, they just run me over, wrath of god or not.

It depends on your build. Most builds I play with run 3 EE at least. On the play, I tend to play EE as an opener and try to keep Vial off the table. Just answer their opening threats like Lackey and/or Vial and then try and chain draw when convenient.

Running maindeck Wastelands is good here. You should aggressively use them to destroy Rishadan Ports or throw them at random lands if you feel that they're tight on mana.

Running Humility and Cunning Wish helps too. Cunning Wish fetches ETutor => Humility to win the pre-board game.

Another way to end the game is to stall until you hit 8 mana. From there, you hardcast DoJs and try and take the game down aggressively. I've been in the practice of aggressive use of DoJ pre-board and post-board.

Cards to consider boarding in are BEB, Circle of Protection: Red, Enlighten Tutor if you run Cunning Wish, Ajani Goldmane and Crucible of Worlds.


You should post your build so I have some material to work with so that you can have a good game against Vial Goblins with a minimal amount of slots being filled to fight Vial Goblins. Also, list the other decks in you metagame and what decks you're concerned with against that metagame.

[Smog]

I know that the general concensus is that Path to Exhile is just bad Swords to Plowshares, but has anyone considered running both? Maybe not 4 of each, but possibly 4 StP, 2PtE? I find that, though wrath is amazing, alot of times some early game pressure (and an eventual game loss) could have been prevented by a singleton removal turn one or two.

I'm not endorsing the idea in anyway, just throwing it out there.

[Citrus-God]

I know that the general concensus is that Path to Exhile is just bad Swords to Plowshares, but has anyone considered running both? Maybe not 4 of each, but possibly 4 StP, 2PtE? I find that, though wrath is amazing, alot of times some early game pressure (and an eventual game loss) could have been prevented by a singleton removal turn one or two.

I'm not endorsing the idea in anyway, just throwing it out there.

It's a good Cunning Wish target.

[mossivo1986]

It's a good Cunning Wish target.


Ex. A

SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
SB: 1 [SHM] Runed Halo
SB: 1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
SB: 1 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 1 [CNF] Path to Exile
SB: 3 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [IN] Dismantling Blow

If you'll notice I split it 1-1-1 with hydro and BEB. So far testing hasn't made any spectacular differences, but with the loss of the third beb I would like to add a second ajani, Im thinking about dropping the 4th relic or 2nd runed halo from the board and replacing it with ajani.

[Misplayer]

@Citrus-God,
I've been testing out your 4c build with CB out of the side posted a few pages back. On paper it really looks like a house. Have you experienced any mana base issues, and along those same lines, are the 4 basics really worth risking color-screw now and then? Also, do you think squeezing in 1-2 Vindicates would put too much strain on an already shaky mana base, or are they just not needed when you have Deed? Lastly, have you thought about Monestary in place of 1 Factory? I've been testing your list with the following changes (which may or may not be good):

-1 Brainstorm
-1 Decree of Justice (because I only own 2, I know this is probably wrong)
-1 Mishra's Factory
-2 Island
-2 Plains

+2 Vindicate
+1 Nantuko Monestary
+1 Polluted Delta
+1 Underground Sea/Polluted Delta
+1 Tropical Island
+1 Tundra

I'm hesitant about the Vindicates because they lose some power without Wasteland. Everything else I'm pretty comfortable with, but I haven't tested against potent non-basic hate (Dragon Stompy, MUC, Thrash/TA to a lesser extent). How much will basic Island/Plains help in these matchups?

[konsultant]

Just some words of warning for my fellow Landstill players, be prepared to deal with Natural Order for Progenitus at the GP. I have some rough drafts of this deck and they are all really hard to beat. This could easily be a spoiler deck at the GP.

[ChiiMagic]

I probably wouldn't really worry about that crapper of a deck too much. I definitely agree that random morons will show up with it, but I don't see it as a real threat that is gonna make me change even 1 SB slot.
Wrath of God definitely kills Progenitals, as does Nevinyrral's Disk, Innocent Blood, any kind of Edict, and simply counterspells should keep his fat ass off the table if you don't have your sweeper or Edict ready. If you are playing none of these cards for some reason, then I would recommend making some changes to your build, but for everyone else, I wouldn't get worked up over yet another hyped up abortion of a deck.

[rockout]

Just some words of warning for my fellow Landstill players, be prepared to deal with Natural Order for Progenitus at the GP. I have some rough drafts of this deck and they are all really hard to beat. This could easily be a spoiler deck at the GP.

Lots of discard with survival.dec back up and natural order to boot? I guess I have another deck to test for the GP. ugh.

Edit: I just realized you can runed halo naming progenitus or mage naming natural order. It can definitely can something that might catch us off guard and steal a game, but I think I'll make the necessary notes and keep it in the back of the head.

[b4r0n]

Yeah, I think that was a joke. Of all the decks in this format, Landstill has the most answers to Natural Order for Progenitus:

Counterspell/Force the Natural Order
Wrath or Humility after the Natural Order resolves
Runed Halo (on Progenitus) and/or Meddling Mage (on Natural Order) post board

[Viscosity]

^ Right.

I've been doing lots of testing against progenitus decks (loam, thresh, survival). Does it win? Yes, sometimes. But so far, the natural order combo weakens the decks vs landstill. The inherent card disadvantage and weakness to countermagic and WoG makes it pretty much suck.

[rockout]

Well, I figured I should at least cover all my bases. I'll be honest I'm getting sick of play testing and just need the gp to be tomorrow.

[Jaynel]

Yeah, I think that was a joke. Of all the decks in this format, Landstill has the most answers to Natural Order for Progenitus:

Counterspell/Force the Natural Order
Wrath or Humility after the Natural Order resolves
Runed Halo (on Progenitus) and/or Meddling Mage (on Natural Order) post board


In addition, proactively "countering" Natural Order by keeping the mana guys off the table with Swords and EE works well.

[konsultant]

I totally agree Landstill has the best game against the deck in the entire format. Here is my point, there isn't a standard list or idea for this deck yet. You aren't going to have the advantage of knowing what your opponent may or may not be playing unlike the rest of the decks in Legacy. Anybody playing this combo is going to have a strategy for control and you aren't going to know for certain what it is until you see it. This is similar to Flash, everybody knows there is a combo but nobody knows what the best shell of it is yet. In 2 days of testing and rough drafts I have already thrown a list together that consistently beats everything in legacy other than Landstill and is par with the faster combo, Tendrils and Ichorid. Just be wary you never know what crap they are running in these decks and not walking into anything is going to be the key to winning these match's. I'd reccomend running a Perish or 2 in the SB just to seal up this match. Perish is still entirely relevent against a number of other decks in legacy and is an easy replacement for the Edict's in the SB of my list.

[Nihil Credo]

I agree with konsultant's general point, have no opinion on Progenitus beating everything but Landstill (because I haven't tried it yet), and disagree that Landstill players should board Perish since Retribution of the Meek is slightly better (lose: killing Elves and Mongeese; gain: killing Dreadnought, Tombstalker, Crushers, Affinity guys, and all sorts of less common dudes, while being in your main colours).

[Citrus-God]

I agree with konsultant's general point, have no opinion on Progenitus beating everything but Landstill (because I haven't tried it yet), and disagree that Landstill players should board Perish since Retribution of the Meek is slightly better (lose: killing Elves and Mongeese; gain: killing Dreadnought, Tombstalker, Crushers, Affinity guys, and all sorts of less common dudes, while being in your main colours).

Perish kills and gets around Teeg.

[Viscosity]

bleh.

[Ch@os]

First turn stifling a fetch land is still the best play for a landstill deck.

nope

[rockout]

nope
I lol'd

There really is no optimal first turn play for landstill, you kind of give up an amazingly optimal first turn to have, arguably, the best late game of any deck in the format:

1. You can lay EE for 0 or 1 to deter stuff you know you don't want to see on their turn 1.
2. You can swords something.
3. Keep mana for snare.
4. Keep mana for brainstorm to fend off discard
5. Ponder if you are running it, some do, most don't.

[Viscosity]

nope

well obviously, that is my opinion. And yours is yours. Personally, I like a one mana instant sink hole before they can tap for mana... So if sinkhole cost one blue, and said "you play play this spell on a land as it comes into play". Destroy that land and the land's owner loses one life. Do you think there would be a deck that didn't play four?

The tempo gain is ridiculous and the deck makes up for it with follow-up card draw.

For example. Last night I play a fetch + mox first turn. He plays fetch, he attempts to fetch, I stifle. Then I take my turn, I play a wasteland and and standstill.

So I have 3 mana, a standstill, a waste. And he has Nothing in play.. seems preeeeeeeeeeetty good. Plus crucible in my hand. Game was over before it started.


I lol'd

1. You can lay EE for 0 or 1 to deter stuff you know you don't want to see on their turn 1.
2. You can swords something.
3. Keep mana for snare.
4. Keep mana for brainstorm to fend off discard
5. Ponder if you are running it, some do, most don't.

EE for one is great. And I often play it.

If you are on the play and they play a fetch land. Stifle is better than all of your options. You don't need swords, or EE, or snare if they don't have mana to play a spell. Then on the following turn, you are dropping a 2nd land to their none...

Obviously the deck is reactionary, you have one mana and wait to see what they do. If they happen to walk a fetchland into your stifle, then that is what you should do. STIFLE it.

Landstill has a great late/mid game. An early stifle is basically a tempo time-walk, getting you closer to late game. Getting you more land drops while your opponent is another turn behind.

I guess I'm going to have to stop posting on this forum... And just keep winning magic tournaments with my sub-optimal decks and strategies..

[Genericcactus]

The tempo gain is ridiculous and the deck makes up for it with follow-up card draw.

There is no reason to gain early tempo in Landstill. This is not tempo thresh or Team America, we can't take advantage of this early tempo, unless we can then drop a standstill, avoiding a daze. But as soon as standstill comes down, and it doesn't break for (on average) 3 turns, don't you lose all the tempo you had? Is it worth playing a card that provides tempo we can't consistently take advantage of and then is basically dead the rest of the game? Isn't Spell Snare MUCH better in this slot? Or even more Counterspells? Or Top?

[Viscosity]

There is no reason to gain early tempo in Landstill.

I disagree strongly. Every deck should be interactive from turn one. Standard landstill decks lose because they play one land per turn and lose to decks that simply out tempo them



This is not tempo thresh or Team America, we can't take advantage of this early tempo, unless we can then drop a standstill, avoiding a daze. But as soon as standstill comes down, and it doesn't break for (on average) 3 turns, don't you lose all the tempo you had?

No. You are ahead on land drops, empowering the game breakers (FoF, Elspeth, Decree) Also, you were able to get the standstill in, free from counter and daze. If they wait three turns for you to drop more land, you are closer to winning.



Is it worth playing a card that provides tempo we can't consistently take advantage of and then is basically dead the rest of the game? Isn't Spell Snare MUCH better in this slot? Or even more Counterspells? Or Top?

Yes it is worth playing because it is not dead. In my particular list, I've experimented with more tops. It isn't as good. I'm generally using all mana available to recur EEs, cast Decree, FoF, Etc. One top is great, 2 is totally dead. Much more so than stifle. Plus the blue card count is as low as it can be to power FoW. Spell snare is a viable option. But I don't like it as much. It actually ends up being dead more often than stifle. I stifle fetches, stifle ringleaders/matrons. Stifle Deed or EE. Stifle does get pitched to FoW of course. But just having the ability for the early Stifle/fetch makes it more powerful than spellsnare, IMO.

Playing the tempo game dramatically improves match-ups against thresh. I often "out tempo" tempo thresh decks. In fact, the game example above was thresh. The main point is that you stop your opponent from out tempo-ing YOU and shutting you out. By the time they play significant threats, you are in 4+ mana spells like WoG , FoF , elspeth, or big decrees.

[NQN]

You always assume that the best case will happen. Let´s for example say your opponent starts with Tropical->Ponder->Usea->Confidant/Survival/random cc2 Powerhouse.
In this case Snare is just the best answer you can have. Snare somehow gives you tempo too because it negates their turn 2. I can´t understand how one can EVER play Stifle>Snare in "our" current metagame.

[Viscosity]

I assume nothing. I play in two events per week (for the last 12 years) and playtest in between. My statements are from playing the game, not waxing philosophical on a board. :wink:

Spell snare is totally viable. It just has not performed as well as stifle in my standstill build. It might be better in other builds, I wouldn't know. I run 9 cards that remove bob/goyf, not including 6 counters (which I would likely not use on 2 drop creatures).

[Viscosity]

You list just doesn't make sense to me.

That's really not surprising. You make a lot of assumptions without actually testing anything. The comments you've made about card interactions are laughable to anyone who has actually played with (or against) the deck you are "analyzing".

When I posted the deck, I stated that I was interested in feedback from people who tested the deck. Not simply read the list and grasped at straws, which you do repeatedly.

I removed the list to reduce chances of running up against it in Chicago. I'd much rather play against your version. So please, keep promoting that.

[gustha]

HI!
I came back after a full period of exams and a 61 people toyrney yesterday. Meta has really anything, from Thresh to stompy / stax, many goblins and elves from aggro to combo), lots of landstill of course, aggro loam, plenty of combo (high tide, belcher, AdnT), and the new yugioh deck (that with progrenitals, that top8ed), ichorid also. Finished 13th, stopped with stupid burn (keldon marauders, mogg fanatic, rift bolt and all those stupid things) on ROUND 5!!! how the hell a deck like this in a meta like that could be round 5 at table 6?!? g1 obviously lost, g2 my counterbalances were in the last 10 cards of the deck, i didn't see any with top on the board and 5 fetches to shuffle away the crap... there's no glory in losing like this, but I was obviously even angry with the ugly match with the player at table 2 the round before, who played aggroloam very sowly (i was nearly sleeping...). g1 lasted 40 minutes, he attacks for lethal with worm tokens while I was swearing cause i din't see any EE with jace on the board (so 2 cards per turn for ten turns!!! = 20 cards!!!); g2 finished at turns with me bashing with factories and he at 4 life. Had elspeth come down the turn before, could have won. No mirror match this time. This the list I played:

// Lands
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [B] Tundra
3 [TE] Wasteland
1 [R] Underground Sea
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [TSP] Swamp (1)
1 [R] Scrubland
2 [APL] Plains (3)
3 [RAV] Island (4)

// Creatures
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 [LRW] Jace Beleren

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
1 [A] Nevinyrral's Disk
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
2 [R] Wrath of God
3 [OD] Standstill
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
3 [AP] Vindicate
4 [A] Swords to Plowshares
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [A] Counterspell
1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
SB: 4 [CS] Counterbalance

The deck worked very well and did everything i wanted to to. Still, in some MU's i felt like I really loved having FoF instead of jace, but the CA it makes is rediculous. Aso, I'm not yet convinced on the 3/3 split between standstill and jace, maybe a 4/2 split would be bettere (but: a) i don't want to think at jace simply replacing fof; b) 2x jace forces me to use more often its +2 ability). Vindicate proved itself the good card it is, and simply makes dstompy MU (if you manage to get your basics and some removal in the first turns) almost a auto-win. Doj almost useless...

Round1: goblins 2-0
Favorable MU, but he played Rgb so threats in sideboard. G2 he opens a slow hand with cabal naming EE, but i played plague. he casts ringleader but sees lackey taiga taiga badlands, cast another and sees lackey lackey (with plague in game, lol!) and 2 lands. Then he needed g for krosan, but i go in waste/vindicate mode on his lands to secure my win.
1-0

Round2: elfstaff 2-1
My team-mate. G1 I kept a godhand, but then draw lands lands lands...g3 he goes the same, and 3 plagues gave me enough time to bash him with mishra and elspeth.
2-0

Round 3: dragonstompy 2-1
g1 i had nohing but kept anyway, and i lost in five turns. g2 and g3 were a cakewalk... thanx to my fow and removal, he goes topdeck mode in 2-3 turns. Disk always won the game, with the 3rd ability of elspeth. g3 he cast chalice@3 (and I drew in order: crucible, vindicate, jace, jace :cry: ) and needle naming disk. EE@ got rid of chalice, vindicate of needle and disk of the rest!
3-0

Round 4: aggroloam 0-1
g1 was the crap above. g2 i resolved 2 relics and a tormod, and I can't figure out how he managed to resist however... a jund charm on my graveyard, in reponse to my crucible, kept me away from WW to cast elspeth until the last additional turn.
3-1

Round 5: stupid burn 0-2
No (further) comments
3-2

Round 6: belcher 2-0
Another not particulary difficult MU. g2 mishra and mage (naming ETW) bashed him to death. I cast 3 standstill and never see a fow. But he can't risk with my 10 cards hands... the only relevant draws he made was xantid swarm (that got STP), a land and LED / chrome (which got respectively wasted and EE'd).

Next week hope i can play and do a better result, even if I'm not dissatisfied with this one. 2'00 a.m., better go to sleep.

[mossivo1986]

That's really not surprising. You make a lot of assumptions without actually testing anything. The comments you've made about card interactions are laughable to anyone who has actually played with (or against) the deck you are "analyzing".

When I posted the deck, I stated that I was interested in feedback from people who tested the deck. Not simply read the list and grasped at straws, which you do repeatedly.

I removed the list to reduce chances of running up against it in Chicago. I'd much rather play against your version. So please, keep promoting that.

IIs the list your refering to the one that looks like a combination of stax manabase with landstill configuration? If so I wouldn't fear running up against it, as I don't think anyone in their right mind is going to play something they have less then a month to test.

Rockout may not know the ins and outs to your list, but he is a very experianced landstill player and though he may nag like a whore it is imperitive that you both understand that your both completely different players.

vis you apparently like to sacrifice efficiency for explosiveness. Rockout you like to have answers over raw power/ manipulation.

[rockout]

I personally enjoy playing a 60 card pile of good cards. I'm sorry they just mesh well together somehow. Raw power? WTF?

Tournament report from the Grid tournament:

// Lands
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [UNH] Plains
2 [UNH] Island
1 [UNH] Swamp
3 [B] Tundra
2 [B] Underground Sea
1 [B] Scrubland
3 [JGC] Mishra's Factory
3 [REW] Wasteland - marry me please
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins - didn't use it once

// Creatures
2 [PR] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
3 [JGC] Counterspell - second worst card in the deck
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [AP] Vindicate - amazing the best card
2 [SC] Decree of Justice - I cycled decree twice all day and both times were on turn 3 to find my fourth mana for wrath
2 [ALA] Elspeth Knight-Errant
2 [IN] Fact or Fiction - 2nd best card in the deck
2 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [REW] Wrath of God - worst card in the deck

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [JGC] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [FNM] Engineered Plague - good
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane - amazing
SB: 2 [TE] Perish - eh
SB: 2 [SHM] Runed Halo

Round 1: Pat Kellaher - My teammate - TES 1-2
Game 1: He chants me I CS and don't force wish cuz he has 5 cards in hand He goes dark rit cabal lotus petal x 3 tendrils. play mistake hoorah
Game 2: He AD at 3 life.
Game 3: I keep the nuts hand of force, bs, ee, fetch, cs, and other. I bs into the rest of my mages and don't see a 2nd land until he goes off with a chant protected igg loop.

Round 2: Brent Gilmore - MUC 1-1-1 Nice Guy
Game 1: It ends with all my ee's and vindicates in the gy with 10+ lands unable to untap due to a b2b. Skybreaker gets there.
Game 2: I am able to 3 for 1 jace and 2 b2b with ee.
Game 3: We go to time. I probably could have won if I didn't play the last 5 extra turns poorly.

Round 3: Michael Maclean - Goyf Sligh 2-1
Game 1: Multiple PoPs and stping a double pumped factory.
Game 2: Ajani wins this match up.
Game 3: I have double mage double halo naming PoP, Bolt, Fireblast, PoP. I played this game like a frantic mother looking for her lost son.

Round 4: Brian Popp (BPopp) 0-2 Rgb Gobos Nice Guy
Game 1: I get swarmed. I answer a lot of dudes but lose to multiple ringleaders.
Game 2: He has triple port active. I have triple plague out. No joke. 20 turns later I don't see a win condition and lose to krosan grip and earwig squad.

Round 5: Chris Rock 2-1 Nice Guy
Game 1: I string a lot of CA
Game 2: I lose to turn 1 teeg off chrome mox and to a jitte equiped goyf. He vindicates my land like a champ when next turn I had wrath o well.
Game 3: He deeds away his chrome mox, needle naming ee, and jitte to kill my ajani. Whoops.

Round 6: DJ My other teammate 0-2 Dragonstompy.
Round 1: I lose to red akroma.
Round 2: His opening hand was triple SSG, double magus, city of traitors, Mountain. I force the first magus, cs the second magus and lose to the third magus. Must be nice.

Wrath is by far the worst card in this deck. Having to try to assemble 4 mana through wastelands, ports and vindicates is just awful.

All in all, a shitty meta for landstill. There was a lot of survival, goyf sligh, goblins and DS. I should have played mono red burn.

No props or slops cuz I scrubzored. Why can't I play aggro control? Where are you aggro control? The next person I see casting a PoP at me I might leap the table.

[Citrus-God]

Why do you need Relic? You're better off having a 4th copy of MM, 3rd copy of Runed Halo and a 3rd copy of Perish. Reason why I say this is better because those cards tend to be better in terms of raw power in many match ups. Against Thresh, having Perish is much more insane than Relic; even kills Teeg, which I also think is awesome. Extra Runed Halos and MM would also make combo and Burn match ups easier to handle.

[rockout]

Why do you need Relic? You're better off having a 4th copy of MM, 3rd copy of Runed Halo and a 3rd copy of Perish. Reason why I say this is better because those cards tend to be better in terms of raw power in many match ups. Against Thresh, having Perish is much more insane than Relic; even kills Teeg, which I also think is awesome. Extra Runed Halos and MM would also make combo and Burn match ups easier to handle.

This is true. You just blew my mind. Thanks dude. No sarcasm intended.

[gustha]

Someone forgot aggroloam and ichorid... perish does nothing against ichorid and does little vs aggro loam...i do agree that perish is a good card, with all those green/elves/zoo/progenitals/aggroloam/thres I saw the other day I really woul've had perish instead of wrath in my deck. Also, against all these decks i've mentioned perish works like a less-expensive-less-specific-mana-investment-single-sided-wrath-of-god, which makes it absolutely insane (though does nothing against the 7-8 gobbos in the room, and merfolk too). But against aggroloam I'm not so sure I'd prefer perish above relic, in the ichorid MU there's really no point to prefer perish instead of relic. :frown:

[rockout]

Someone forgot aggroloam and ichorid... perish does nothing against ichorid and does little vs aggro loam...i do agree that perish is a good card, with all those green/elves/zoo/progenitals/aggroloam/thres I saw the other day I really woul've had perish instead of wrath in my deck. Also, against all these decks i've mentioned perish works like a less-expensive-less-specific-mana-investment-single-sided-wrath-of-god, which makes it absolutely insane (though does nothing against the 7-8 gobbos in the room, and merfolk too). But against aggroloam I'm not so sure I'd prefer perish above relic, in the ichorid MU there's really no point to prefer perish instead of relic. :frown:

You bring in E plague against goblins and merfolk not perish. Also, Perish isn't replacing relic. Relic is being replaced for the 3rd perish, the 4th mage, and the 3rd halo. The aggro loam/ichorid MU gets a little tougher without the GY hate, but you can bring in 7 cards against both of those decks: Runed Halo x 3 and Mage x 4.

[jazzykat]

Realizing that the builds are remarkably different with regards to UWb Landstill (I am playing Konsultant's list) what would be the good SB cards to play against WRg Loam Slide.

It's relevant cards are:

Decree of Justice
Life from the Loam
Wasteland
Resounding Thunder (6 damage cycled under standstill)
Slide
Rift
Knight of the Reliquary/Eternal Witness/Kitchen Finks
STP
Lightning Helix

I feel that while I do have manlands and I do have my own Decree of Justice that his loam will bury me. He brings in ancient grudge and krosan grip to deal with artifacts, so I'm thinking I should run extirpate in the board hit his loam and dominate the standstill match up with man lands and my own DoJ.

I would take out my 3 wraths. I was also thinking of boarding in Elspeth/Anjani Goldmane.

Your thoughts are appreciated.

[gustha]

You bring in E plague against goblins and merfolk not perish.
I said I was thinking of replacing MD wrath with perish, at least 1/1 split, due to the massive presence of green permanents to destroy (tarmo mongoose terravore progenitals elves) but perish does nothing against gobbos and merfolks (yeah, my sentence may have been not so clear, was just a train of thoughts...).


Also, Perish isn't replacing relic. Relic is being replaced for the 3rd perish, the 4th mage, and the 3rd halo. The aggro loam/ichorid MU gets a little tougher without the GY hate, but you can bring in 7 cards against both of those decks: Runed Halo x 3 and Mage x 4.

I understand this, but still i'm not so convinced... I've tested 3 mage 4 cb 2 sdt (+1 MD) and felt much better than 4 mage 3 halo 2 ajani (actually you can bring in 9 cards against aggroloam, and perish too replacing wrath). I was thinking (and again, I apologize if I couldn't explain myself well) that those 3 slots could easily be, in my sb, 2 perish (can come in replacing wrath or paired with wrath, my disk or an explo out) +1 open slot (tormod?4th mage?). So my problem is that perish, that's a really good card i've always wanted to play, can fit in my sb only replacing GY hate (and maybe adding the 4th mage).

My sb atm (posted above):
3 Mage
4 cb
2 sdt
3 relic
3 plague

[mossivo1986]

Realizing that the builds are remarkably different with regards to UWb Landstill (I am playing Konsultant's list) what would be the good SB cards to play against WRg Loam Slide.

It's relevant cards are:

Decree of Justice
Life from the Loam
Wasteland
Resounding Thunder (6 damage cycled under standstill)
Slide
Rift
Knight of the Reliquary/Eternal Witness/Kitchen Finks
STP
Lightning Helix

I feel that while I do have manlands and I do have my own Decree of Justice that his loam will bury me. He brings in ancient grudge and krosan grip to deal with artifacts, so I'm thinking I should run extirpate in the board hit his loam and dominate the standstill match up with man lands and my own DoJ.

I would take out my 3 wraths. I was also thinking of boarding in Elspeth/Anjani Goldmane.

Your thoughts are appreciated.

From what I understand from rockout consultants list has a terrifying matchup against anything named loam, and for that matter astral slide doesn't help things either. Personally I md relics and vendillion clique against loam/ teps/ survival/ thresh the list goes on and on. But my weakness becomes the long game against other landstill models because of this.

[konsultant]

Realizing that the builds are remarkably different with regards to UWb Landstill (I am playing Konsultant's list) what would be the good SB cards to play against WRg Loam Slide.

It's relevant cards are:

Decree of Justice
Life from the Loam
Wasteland
Resounding Thunder (6 damage cycled under standstill)
Slide
Rift
Knight of the Reliquary/Eternal Witness/Kitchen Finks
STP
Lightning Helix

I feel that while I do have manlands and I do have my own Decree of Justice that his loam will bury me. He brings in ancient grudge and krosan grip to deal with artifacts, so I'm thinking I should run extirpate in the board hit his loam and dominate the standstill match up with man lands and my own DoJ.

I would take out my 3 wraths. I was also thinking of boarding in Elspeth/Anjani Goldmane.

Your thoughts are appreciated.

Well I can honestly say that in all of my events that I have ever played I have yet to face this deck. I would treat it like aggro loam, board out the sweepers for Mage's and Ajani. Unlike Aggro Loam they have a considerable number of ways to deal with a mage. Ajani and bulk card advantage are your only real ways to win this match. If I get bored some day i'll proxy it up and play out some games to see how the deck plays out. I think Counter magic with the Mage's and Ajani should be enough to beat this deck but that is with zero actual testing. You would definetly need a strong hand and need to get an early Standstill with enough of a threat that they would have to break it. I've played against Rifter plenty of times and counter magic should be your ace in this match.

[Benie Bederios]

Hi,

I'm just getting this deck together and started testing...

I only had one question: I was under the assumption that Cunning Wish was normally played, but in alot of decks I see Vindicate instead.

What are the advantages of Vindicate over Cunning Wish and in wich matchups do they care.

My meta is with quite some DreadStill, Rg Goyfsligh/Goblins and Aggro-Loam and Stax(60%). The rest of the decks are some Rocklike decks and scrub(30%). Threshold, LandStill are hardly played(5%). There are some combo players, but only 1 or 2 who can actually play the deck...

In this meta wich card would be better...

BB

[Smog]

I think the matter of wishstill vs non-wish builds is just a matter of playstyle. Wishstill and Landstill just play different. Test them both and see which you like better.

[Ectoplasm]

Hi,

I'm just getting this deck together and started testing...

I only had one question: I was under the assumption that Cunning Wish was normally played, but in alot of decks I see Vindicate instead.

What are the advantages of Vindicate over Cunning Wish and in wich matchups do they care.

My meta is with quite some DreadStill, Rg Goyfsligh/Goblins and Aggro-Loam and Stax(60%). The rest of the decks are some Rocklike decks and scrub(30%). Threshold, LandStill are hardly played(5%). There are some combo players, but only 1 or 2 who can actually play the deck...

In this meta wich card would be better...

BB

I'm 99% sure you're talking about the Dutch meta
My (limited, online) experience with cunning wish is that you're wishing for some form of enchantment/artifacthate anyway, so you might as well invest the 3 mana in a vindicate and do it a turn earlier :)

[from Cairo]

Hi,
What are the advantages of Vindicate over Cunning Wish and in wich matchups do they care.

Vindicate answers the problem a turn earlier, and can hit land. It's also an out to opposing Planeswalkers which I guess don't see a ton of play outside Landstill but in the mirror seems relevant.

You lose a little bit of flexibility since I used to have Extirpate, Dismantilling Blow, Enlightened Tutor and Slaughter Pact as my 4 targets. So with Vindicate you don't have MD access to grave hate, and you don't have the Tutor to fetch Crucible or Humility. Of coarse you gain 4 SB slots though so games 2 and 3 you gain a bit of flexibility.

I think the gain in speed from Vindicate is better though for dealing with Artifacts, Enchantments and Creatures and it's ability to capitalize on opponent's mana base if they're struggling already.

[Benie Bederios]

Hi,

Thanks for the replies, but my real questions was, in wich matchups is wich card better? In my assumption:


Vindicate better: Stax, DreadStill, Mirror.
Cunning Wish better: Goyfslight/Burn/Goblins, Aggro Loam.
Matchups that I don't know and like to know: The Rock, Threshold, Merfolk.


ATM I'm testing the Vindicate build. This is the build:


1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Engineered Explosives

1 Eternal Dragon

4 Standstill

3 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshare

3 Flooded Strand
2 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Plains
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
4 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
2 Wasteland

1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

2 Decree of Justice
3 Wrath of God
3 Vindicate

Sideboard

4 Meddling Mage
4 Engineered Plague
3 Runed Halo
2 Ajani Goldmane
2 Chainer's Edict

Choices:

As I said Vindicate is being tested. I like Elspeth, but think one is enough because Landstill isn't played that much here. 4 Mishra's and 2 Wastelands because I only play 2 Decree of Justice.

No Academy Ruins or Tolaria West. Tolaria West was to slow every time. Academy Ruins was to slow and the colorless mana was a pity. I might drop Wastelands for a Ruins and a Dust Bowl.

The Sideboard is completly netdecked but works wonderfully.

Any comments?

BB

[Smog]

As I said Vindicate is being tested. I like Elspeth, but think one is enough because Landstill isn't played that much here. 4 Mishra's and 2 Wastelands because I only play 2 Decree of Justice.

No Academy Ruins or Tolaria West. Tolaria West was to slow every time. Academy Ruins was to slow and the colorless mana was a pity. I might drop Wastelands for a Ruins and a Dust Bowl.

The Sideboard is completly netdecked but works wonderfully.

Any comments?

BB

Don't run more than 3 mishra's. Run 3 wastelands or none. Don't know what tolaria west being 'slow' means, it's a transmute that you can get either piece to the recurring EE combo with. Don't run Ruins without tolaria west. Don't run Dust Bowl unless you're playing wishstill.

And I'd play 2 elspeths. She's amazing. But that's a personal call I guess.

[Benie Bederios]

Don't run more than 3 mishra's. Run 3 wastelands or none. Don't know what tolaria west being 'slow' means, it's a transmute that you can get either piece to the recurring EE combo with. Don't run Ruins without tolaria west. Don't run Dust Bowl unless you're playing wishstill.

And I'd play 2 elspeths. She's amazing. But that's a personal call I guess.

I like your replies, but can't you be more clear... Why wouldn't I play 4 Mishra's Factories?

Why can Dustbowl only be played in the Wishstill build?

With my experience with Tolaria West I found it slow. It cost three mana, for a not immidiate effect. So I never casted it before turn 6, wich is slow.

BB

About Elspeth, I know she is amazing, but I won't likely play the mirror so one is enough.

[Genericcactus]

Don't run more than 3 mishra's. Run 3 wastelands or none. Don't know what tolaria west being 'slow' means, it's a transmute that you can get either piece to the recurring EE combo with. Don't run Ruins without tolaria west. Don't run Dust Bowl unless you're playing wishstill.

And I'd play 2 elspeths. She's amazing. But that's a personal call I guess.

Why on earth would you only run 3 Mishra's? You always want to see one, and they get better the more you have. It's one of the key cards in the deck, an auto 4-of.

In regards to Dust Bowl: I'm currently playing it in my list that doesn't have Cunning Wish. The use of Dust Bowl is just a different strategy. I, also, don't run Vindicate, so LD is not a large part of my gameplan. Dust Bowl destroys the random annoying lands (manlands, volrath's stronghold, academy ruins) and, in some situations, can be useful in cutting off a color. I see no connection between Cunning Wish and Dustbowl.

Oh yeah, run 2 Elspeths. You want to see one every game. If you have one in play and you draw another, no big deal, because you already won by having one in play. Elspeth is the best card that happened to Landstill since Spell Snare.

[from Cairo]

Don't run more than 3 mishra's. Run 3 wastelands or none. Don't know what tolaria west being 'slow' means, it's a transmute that you can get either piece to the recurring EE combo with. Don't run Ruins without tolaria west. Don't run Dust Bowl unless you're playing wishstill.

Yea I'd be interested in a more thorough explanation of these as well.

4 Mishra's seems very defensible in a format where most of the decks are Blue seeing as it's an uncounterable threat.

I agree with 3 Wastelands or going the route of Tolaria West/Dustbowl/Academy Ruins. You have room for 6-7 utility lands, some of them obviously being Factories. 3 Wasteland seems much more powerful if you're also running Vindicates in the build.

I really like Tolaria West, occasionally its needed as a land drop, but doubling as a tutor for Ruins or Dustbowl or EE is awesome. It definitely makes the Ruins/EE combo alot better, I'm not sure its unplayable without the Tolaria West though. Tolaria West can also occasionally be good to tutor an off color basic or Factory (under a Standstill).

I'm totally lost on why one shouldn't run Dustbowl unless they're playing Cunning Wish.

[ChiiMagic]

Who in their right mind would only run 3 Mishra's Factories? That is almost completely wrong, and I would not even care about the reasoning behind it because it is simply wrong. They are never ever a bad draw. Like posted above, its an automatic 4 of in a Landstill deck.
Playing Ruins without Tolaria West is perfectly fine. I don't really know where you came up with these ideas, but they seem a little nuts. Obviously it makes Academy + EE like twice as good, but it is far from a necessity, much unlike the number of Mishra's Factories you play.

[rockout]

I run 3 mishra's factory because I got sick of running too many colorless sources making my early game less consistent.

[mossivo1986]

Who in their right mind would only run 3 Mishra's Factories? That is almost completely wrong, and I would not even care about the reasoning behind it because it is simply wrong. They are never ever a bad draw. Like posted above, its an automatic 4 of in a Landstill deck.
Playing Ruins without Tolaria West is perfectly fine. I don't really know where you came up with these ideas, but they seem a little nuts. Obviously it makes Academy + EE like twice as good, but it is far from a necessity, much unlike the number of Mishra's Factories you play.

Personally I play

3mishra
1tolaria west
1ruins
1 dustbowl

and I would never look back. I also play wishstill. The ability to tutor and munipulate while preserving your opening chances of seeing less then 2 colorless sources in your opener is always a good thing in my opinion.

[ChiiMagic]

I still think it is incorrect to run less than 4 Mishra's Factories. They are the backbone of the entire deck. Mishra's Factory is VERY imposing under a Standstill. If you guys are worried about too many colorless sources, I would cut one of your other colorless lands. I personally just man up and run a full 8 colorless sources, 4 Factory, 3 Wasteland, 1 Academy. I admit, sometimes the overload of brown mana in the opener can be a little awkward, but if my grip is 3 Mishra's Factories, there is almost no way I'm throwing it back unless I'm against combo. Also, I might be a bit biased to just running the most powerful version of the manabase because I play Isochron Scepters which lets me abuse colorless mana. I really don't think I could ever cut a Factory though.

[Henrik]

Playing a lot more UGr thresh than I play landstill, I have to ask; With a configuration such as

3mishra
1tolaria west
1ruins
1 dustbowl

aren't you afraid of getting your only land-destruction-land destroyed by you opponents (mine) wastelands? Also, landstill is not the only deck abusing standstill. Decks playing 3/4 wastelands and manlands (dreadstill, merfolk) would totaly laugh at you when you drop a standstill and say "yeah fine, resolves", then proceed to drop their own mishras and waste yours.

[thefreakaccident]

Playing a lot more UGr thresh than I play landstill, I have to ask; With a configuration such as

3mishra
1tolaria west
1ruins
1 dustbowl

aren't you afraid of getting your only land-destruction-land destroyed by you opponents (mine) wastelands? Also, landstill is not the only deck abusing standstill. Decks playing 3/4 wastelands and manlands (dreadstill, merfolk) would totaly laugh at you when you drop a standstill and say "yeah fine, resolves", then proceed to drop their own mishras and waste yours.


This would only happen if you are totally incompetent... you will only play a standstill against these such decks if you have decrees or you have plenty of mishra's or you have ways to deal w/ their factories/mutavault...


I make sure that my opponent never gets 3 free cards from me, unless it is the mirror, we are going to time, and I am trying to deck him.

[from Cairo]

you will only play a standstill against these such decks if you have decrees or you have plenty of mishra's or you have ways to deal w/ their factories/mutavault

Totally agree, but I think the point they are making is valid, that less Factories means less situations where you'll have Factory advantage to lay a Standstill against these decks.

[Henrik]

yeah, I understand that much as well.

My point is you cant always be sure what youre playing against. if you are on the play, and you see that your opponent plays island,go in his turn, you never play standstill turn 2?

And also, even if you do know what youre playing against and therefore dont WANT to play the standstill, that seems pretty got damn bad to me, since youre sitting on dead cards you cant play. And all of this could be avoided by a more devoted land-base.

[rockout]

I'd drop a t2 standstill if someone drops a t1 island. I'd force them to beat me. Don't be afraid to drop standstills in the face of almost anything.

I'm hoping that anyone running a black splash will be running at least 3 engineered plagues out of the sb. With the rise of merfolk in the past few months, it's not a favorable matchup game 1 but you can hate on the tribes of magic with a solid sb slot in plague.

[Omega]

Some people says that Plague are weak against merfolk. They do have like 6-8 "lord effect +1/1)
Humility should do the job (if not already MD). Plague + humility is gg

Robert

[Henrik]

I'd drop a t2 standstill if someone drops a t1 island. I'd force them to beat me. Don't be afraid to drop standstills in the face of almost anything.


Uhm, I don't understand quite what you mean with "force them to beat me", can you elaborate on this strategy? It sounds like you want to get a lot of attacks on you, but what's the catch? Sorry, I'm a litte dense... =)

[Viscosity]

Some people says that Plague are weak against merfolk. They do have like 6-8 "lord effect +1/1)
Humility should do the job (if not already MD). Plague + humility is gg

Robert

plague is not weak against merfolk at all. it won't win by itself, but it is extremely significant.

[mossivo1986]

plague is not weak against merfolk at all. it won't win by itself, but it is extremely significant.

Rockout and I have these little bitch sessions where we discuss problem matchups and key sideboarding strategies maybe once or twice a week. This week we talked alot about merfolk as well as 4c landstill and goblins. We actually were thinking about different cards to side in against merfolk but it ended up comming down to EP after all in our short testing. Without a really strong way to get around it you basicly only have to kill one lord via swords and then the rest follow suite. Yes they run multiple lords, but you run multiple removal spells, so the trade is more then worth it.

p.s. We also tried meekstone as we thought that it would make a fundamental difference in the way the matchup ran, but dropping it early allowed me to play around it.

[from Cairo]

p.s. We also tried meekstone as we thought that it would make a fundamental difference in the way the matchup ran, but dropping it early allowed me to play around it.

Meekstone seems awful. With Mutavault/Mishra's/Lord of Atlantis completely unaffected by it and Reejerey's effect it seems like the Merfolk player could easily navigate around it.

Meekstone doesn't seem like it would have alot of decks it it would come in against. It seems very narrow and really is only effective at stopping large creatures after they've already started swinging at which point they're probably getting their mana's worth out of them anyway since we can't nullify dmg from most of the large creatures in the format (Terravore (Trample), Progenitus (unblockable), Phyrexian Dreadnaught (Trample)), like if any of those turn sideways, we're in trouble regardless of whether we have a Meekstone to keep them tapped from a 2nd swing.

I agree Engineered Plague (+ Humility for those running it) with spot removal aimed at the Lords is the best answer to Merfolk. Also against Goblins.

[rockout]

Uhm, I don't understand quite what you mean with "force them to beat me", can you elaborate on this strategy? It sounds like you want to get a lot of attacks on you, but what's the catch? Sorry, I'm a litte dense... =)

Force them to beat me means force them to draw better than I will. Sometimes you can't pussy foot around. You just have to f---ing go for it. If you have to break it giving them 3 cards like 5-6 turns later. O well, it still feels worth it. Have a little faith and a lot of balls to go for it.

[b4r0n]

What is the highest amount of non-blue mana sources that this deck can support? I've been playing around with 4 Factory, 3 Waste, 1 Ruins, 2 Plains, 1 Scrubland (leaving 13 blue sources and 2 Dragons). Is that too many? What do you feel is a reasonable number?

[rockout]

What is the highest amount of non-blue mana sources that this deck can support? I've been playing around with 4 Factory, 3 Waste, 1 Ruins, 2 Plains, 1 Scrubland (leaving 13 blue sources and 2 Dragons). Is that too many? What do you feel is a reasonable number?

If you run 23 land you should be fine.

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [UNH] Plains
2 [UNH] Island
1 [UNH] Swamp
3 [B] Tundra
2 [B] Underground Sea
1 [B] Scrubland
3 [JGC] Mishra's Factory
3 [REW] Wasteland
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins

That's my mana base. Basic swamp allows for vindicate amazingness to be had all the time. It's not double blue you should be worried about. It's usually double plains you want to see.

[from Cairo]

It's not double blue you should be worried about. It's usually double plains you want to see.

Truth.

I'm running 14 Blue sources, 13 White sources, 9 Black sources. No Dragons, 4 Brainstorms, 24 lands.

4 Mishra's Factory
4 Tundra
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
2 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Scrubland
1 Underground Sea
1 Dustbowl
1 Tolaria West
1 Academy Ruins

[b4r0n]

I guess I'm more worried about having an early blue source for Brainstorm, Standstill, and Spell Snare. Those all buy time for me to find white sources.

I haven't really been a fan of the basic Swamp. I'm already running 3 black sources, all of which also tap for useful colors. When do you find a basic Swamp to be useful? Under a Blood Moon or a Back to Basics?

[rockout]

I guess I'm more worried about having an early blue source for Brainstorm, Standstill, and Spell Snare. Those all buy time for me to find white sources.

I haven't really been a fan of the basic Swamp. I'm already running 3 black sources, all of which also tap for useful colors. When do you find a basic Swamp to be useful? Under a Blood Moon or a Back to Basics?

A single blue is all you need to effectively cast everything but counterspell. Basic swamp is good under moon effect, b2b, recurring waste. When your black source gets wasted and you are trying to cast EE @ 3 or Vindicate it's a real pain.

[NQN]

I play 23 lands total

4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
2 Plains
2 Islands
1 Swamp
4 Mishra
1 Dust Bowl
4 Flooded
2 Delta

And I´m having quiet success with it.

[Wargoos]

@NQN: Are you running any Eternal Dragon's in your build?

[NQN]

No, they were always like "tap two, search land noxXx" and never won me a match. This is the current list I run:

// Lands
1 [R] Scrubland
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
2 [OV] Plains
2 [U] Underground Sea
4 [A] Tundra
2 [6E] Island (3)
1 [10E] Swamp (2)

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [AT] Swords to Plowshares
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 [AP] Vindicate
2 [7E] Counterspell
2 [TE] Diabolic Edict
2 [ON] Smother
2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top

[klaus]

No, they were always like "tap two, search land noxXx" and never won me a match. This is the current list I run:

// Lands
1 [R] Scrubland
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
2 [OV] Plains
2 [U] Underground Sea
4 [A] Tundra
2 [6E] Island (3)
1 [10E] Swamp (2)

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [AT] Swords to Plowshares
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 [AP] Vindicate
2 [7E] Counterspell
2 [TE] Diabolic Edict
2 [ON] Smother
2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top

I haven't had time to test Path to Exile so far but as a 2of, I could see them replacing those 2 Edicts easily.
Also, glad that you seem to fancy my -WoG +SpotRemoval approach.:wink:
I see you're running -1 Edict, -1 Smother in your build and no Jaces. I'm wondering whether there's no SwarmAggro.dec in your meta or whether you put WoGs in your SB. Cause Goblins etc.. seems really unfavorable with your setup.

[Enigma]

I playtested Merfolk with this Deck and wasn't able with a single match. It's why i decided not to play this deck yesterday at the Legacy-walk tournament in Montreal because I was anticipating at least 3 Merfolk players. (There was 4!) Even with Speedstill and 15 MD Removal that affects all of their creature, it's still a hard MU. I can't see how 2 Relic and 2 Top can help this prob.

PM

[konsultant]

I playtested Merfolk with this Deck and wasn't able with a single match. It's why i decided not to play this deck yesterday at the Legacy-walk tournament in Montreal because I was anticipating at least 3 Merfolk players. (There was 4!) Even with Speedstill and 15 MD Removal that affects all of their creature, it's still a hard MU. I can't see how 2 Relic and 2 Top can help this prob.

PM

Exactly what do you mean by "this deck"? The subtle change's in lists can have an enormous impact on how well one list will perform against a certain deck. Regardless of that I don't see how any of the current Landstill builds are losing to Merfolk. I've tested against that deck exstensively and once you are familiar with the cards it runs it should be a favorable match up. Lord of Atlantis require's your attention, you are playing a deck with more removal in it than any other deck winning in Legacy right now, on top of that Spellsnare hits it. Play around Waste and Stifle, keep the Lords and Vial out of play. Be prepared when you play Standstill. They have practically zero card advantage, play the attrition war and you should inevitably win. Thats all game one stuff but the people running Plague get to bring that in and they can't even run Grip in Merfolk. Once you do some testing against the deck I would be surprised to see people losing to Merfolk with Landstill. Now if it's the first or second time you have played against the deck where you have to stop and read every card than I can understand walking into things that may cause you a loss. For instance one of my team members running my list lost to Merfolk in the top 4 of the 44 person event yesterday because he side boarded wrong, well atleast not the way I do when I was setting up my side board strategies. It was also the first time he had ever seen Merfolk.

[rockout]

I do when I was setting up my side board strategies.

Feel free to share said sb strategies. Other than, +3 plague -3 ???

[klaus]

Exactly what do you mean by "this deck"? The subtle change's in lists can have an enormous impact on how well one list will perform against a certain deck. Regardless of that I don't see how any of the current Landstill builds are losing to Merfolk. I've tested against that deck exstensively and once you are familiar with the cards it runs it should be a favorable match up. Lord of Atlantis require's your attention, you are playing a deck with more removal in it than any other deck winning in Legacy right now, on top of that Spellsnare hits it. Play around Waste and Stifle, keep the Lords and Vial out of play. Be prepared when you play Standstill. They have practically zero card advantage, play the attrition war and you should inevitably win. Thats all game one stuff but the people running Plague get to bring that in and they can't even run Grip in Merfolk. Once you do some testing against the deck I would be surprised to see people losing to Merfolk with Landstill. Now if it's the first or second time you have played against the deck where you have to stop and read every card than I can understand walking into things that may cause you a loss. For instance one of my team members running my list lost to Merfolk in the top 4 of the 44 person event yesterday because he side boarded wrong, well atleast not the way I do when I was setting up my side board strategies. It was also the first time he had ever seen Merfolk.

Merfolk IS a pain the bottom for any LS variant, at least that's my experience against Merfolk.dec piloted by skilled players.
4-6 Wastelands+Ports, 2-3 Mutavaults, Standstills of their own that are usually must counters in the early game, Stifle+Waste+Port making WoGs Dazable up to turn 20+. You make it look too easy by stating just take care of Stifle & Lords - as a matter of fact, all they need to worry about are your 3 copies of WoGs which they have 8 counters for and even IF you get one through it might either be not enough or too late.

The one card that really screws us is Silvergil Adept, though. Truely underrated. Being CA on legs it's one of the reasons Merfolk is a DTB right now, just saying.

[from Cairo]

The one card that really screws us is Silvergil Adept, though. Truely underrated. Being CA on legs it's one of the reasons Merfolk is a DTB right now, just saying.

I really don't see this card as "the one card that really screws us". As a vanilla 2/1 that cantrips its like a worse version of Eternal Witness. What makes it amazing is when its a cantriping 3/2 Island Walker, or a cantriping 3/2 that taps down our Mishra's Factory clearing the way for other 'Folk.

The 8 Lords are what make the deck, specifically in a very blue Legacy, Lord of Atlantis.

[GGoober]

Just curious if anyone's tested Ethersworn Adjucator in UWb Landstill? It seems that he's a good finisher, board control recurrable via Academy Ruins.

[NQN]

I haven't had time to test Path to Exile so far but as a 2of, I could see them replacing those 2 Edicts easily.
Also, glad that you seem to fancy my -WoG +SpotRemoval approach.:wink:
I see you're running -1 Edict, -1 Smother in your build and no Jaces. I'm wondering whether there's no SwarmAggro.dec in your meta or whether you put WoGs in your SB. Cause Goblins etc.. seems really unfavorable with your setup.

Me neither, so I can´t say anything about Path. What I can say is that I would replace smother with it because I feel uncomfortable with only 3 solutions to mongoose. Since I have a Plague and 1 Tutor in the sideboard, I´m not that afraid of Swarms. I replaced Jace with Top and it definitely was worth it. Top is sooooo amazing that I would never cut it again. The last tournament I played I played 4-0-1 but in games it was 10-0. Top won about 4-5 games on it´s own.

[Wargoos]

Just curious if anyone's tested Ethersworn Adjucator in UWb Landstill? It seems that he's a good finisher, board control recurrable via Academy Ruins.
Actually i did.
But i played a 4c Landstill Version with Moat and Deeds.
Here's the list:
1 Ethersworn Adjudicator
2 Tombstalker
1 Enlightned Tutor
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Moat
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Jace Beleren
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Counterspell
4 Force of WIll
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Vindicate
3 Spell Snare
23 Lands

I liked the Adjudicator being a tutorable Mortify-Serra Angel, although he gave the opponent a target for his removal.

[Shawn]

I played in two tournaments this weekend with UWB landstill, Saturday at the GP trial at the Des Moines PTQ and Sunday in Iowa City. I cut Wish and opted to play a list that is basically Geoff's older uwb one with Humility.

23 lands:
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Windswept Heath (instead of 3rd Delta since it fetches basic Plains)
2 Plains
3 Island
1 Scrubland
1 Underground Sea
4 Tundra
2 Dust Bowl
3 Mishra's Factory

37 spells:

2 Eternal Dragon
4 Force of Will
3 Wrath of God
2 Humility
2 Decree of Justice
2 Fact or Fiction
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Counterspell
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives

Sideboard: 15
2 Hydroblast
2 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Relic of Progenitus
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Engineered Plague
2 Perish (These were Runed Halo on Sunday)
2 Ajani Goldmane

I made the top four at the GP Trial and lost to tempo thresh 0-2 in the semis. I stabilized game one after four Wastelands and built up a bunch of lands, but he burned me out. Game two I EE'd for 1 turn three, and blew it up right away to play around Grip, he Stifles and I don't Force. I definitely should've because I then proceeded to draw a bunch of lands, two more Forces, and double Counterspell ftl.

At Iowa City I played against Scepter-chant landstill in the finals. Game one I kill a scepter with imprinted Counterspell, he plays a stick with STP. He eventually hits Ruins, EE, and Crucible to lock me out of the game. I hit Ajani plus Decree game two for the win. Game three I kill two scepters and am ahead on cards but I missed my second white source so I can't cast Ajani early. He hits Crucible + Waste and starts attacking my mana. I have STP'd almost all of his manlands, and I'm at 4, but he Chants me, then activates his Conclave, and Factory.

I ended up getting nine packs of conflux from Saturday, and we did a prize split Sunday for 13 packs each, which I traded for $52 in store credit. The entry was only $5, too, so the prize support was awesome.

My thoughts on the build:
*Even with two Halos in the board the combo matchup is iffy.
*I wanted another mana source both days, and another Decree.
*Even with 4 Relic in the board, the dredge match up is awful.
*I will probably switch Vindicate back to Wish, so I have an out game one against graveyard shenanigans such as Ruins+Crucible or Wasteland+Loam game one. Ruins is ridiculous in the mirror, but I had problems drawing too many colorless sources, so I cut it.
*I had a version with Snare but it wasn't missed much either day.
*Dust Bowl will probably turn back into Wasteland, since it's cheaper to use and most of the time I would only hit 1-2 lands with Dust Bowl anyway. I wanted to cast my spells and cycle Decrees for more guys, rather than atttacking their mana.

Right now I'm probably going to play Thresh at the GP since I'm not happy with any of the landstill lists I have. (Not enough mana, not enough Decrees, no outs to grave recursion game 1, if I cut FoF I'm a dog in control matchups, etc.) Thoughts?

[Raider Bob]

As I am looking over the past few pages at sideboard stratagys I am noticing that Relic of Progenitus is the Graveyard card of hate in many different sideboards. Can someone who is playing this card give me the reason this card is better than other common graveyard hate cards?

Tormonds Crypt
Extirpate

[rockout]

As I am looking over the past few pages at sideboard stratagys I am noticing that Relic of Progenitus is the Graveyard card of hate in many different sideboards. Can someone who is playing this card give me the reason this card is better than other common graveyard hate cards?

Tormonds Crypt
Extirpate

We don't run Goyf so we don't need to risk shrinking our goyf with relic. It also shrinks goyf and makes Vore a 0/0.

Extirpate costs a black and a lot of times you might sit their and go, man I wish I could cast this. Atleast, I know personally I used to play extirpate and there were a number of games where I had one in my hand and didn't draw a way to fetch a black source. At that point, I said f you extirpate.

I know some people run a 2/2 split of crypt and relic to get around needle/chalice from an ichorid player, but I just play relic because I think it's better.

[dakkon]

I’m wondering about this myself. Don’t get me wrong, I think Relic is a fine card and the fact that it cycles makes it “less dead” and therefore main deck worthy in certain decks. However, I tend to favor Crypt (and in some cases Extirpate) as a sideboard card because it frees up your mana to play Standstill, counters, etc. Against Loam for instance, I wouldn’t just run Relic out there to get it blown to bits. If you’re playing around Grip, then the 2 mana requirement becomes a liability. Relic’s benefit really is in the landstill control mirror since it replaces itself. I would say it is marginal if not slightly worse than Crypt in the matches for which you really need the grave hate.

[Raider Bob]

Most of the uw Landstill decks play 12-13 board control/Creature control cards. They also play 10 counterspells, 3 Spell Snare, 3 Counterspells and 4 Force of wills. Goyf is a good card but it is far from such a large threat as to warrent a graveyard nuking card. I am more looking at how it is possibly better than Icorid. At 1 mana 1 to activate you give the icorid player 2 turns to combo out. The replacment effect of this card makes this card slightly better.

Extirpate or crypt gives you 1st turn diffusion against Icorid, extirpate helps against other decks that are threats.

Relic of Progenitus - Feels like its a waste of a first turn, later in the game I can see where the replacment effect and the total nukage of the yards can be effective but if you lost the game on turn 1 or 2 the late game is a moot point.

[NQN]

You don´t need an answer on turn 1. Ichorid will usually board out the ftk and therefor you can easily drop relic first turn. Furthermore it shines against loam because it PERMANENTLY shuts off their loam engine and can still draw a card if there´s no need for it anymore.

[konsultant]

Feel free to share said sb strategies. Other than, +3 plague -3 ???

Well first off i would alway's run 4x Plague if at all possable, secondly I have tested about 500 games or so against Canadian Thresh now with the sole goal being to build the best Mana Base possable and to learn how to play against Mana denial effectivly. That being said if you are not familiar with playing against Mana Denial or if you are running a different Mana Base than I am you could be having different problems. I assure everybody it is entirely possable to beat Merfolk reliably with the list I have posted.

The SB seems fairly straight forward to me but it's -4 FOW +4 Plague. The deck has zero must counter cards and it plays too many creature's making the card disadvantage of Force the weakest card in the deck. Landstill is a Hybrid of 2 decks, Blue counterspell control and mono White control, against Creature decks the White portion of the deck is strongest so focus on adding more removal. Let them lose to the card disadvantage of Force. The only real threat they have is Vial and you still have EE and Vindicate to deal with it not to mention Plague can negate vials and make up for any card advantage they gained from Standstill. I'm not saying that the deck can't beat Landstill but after doing some testing against the deck I firmly beleive that the match is in Landstill's favor.

[CephalidBreakfast]

I'm planning on playing a list like these at the GP:

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23077
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23091
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23082


...the first of which, I believe, is konsultant's and the other two from a forum user who's name is lost to me as of yet.

I'm new to Landstill, and my knowledge of Legacy is limited, so I had a few questions about the lists.

Is the Ichorid matchup a complete lost cause? It seems like the Relics are almost a token defense against them, but that the matchup is fairly unwinnable without dedicating a large portion of the SB to hate. Are the relics primarily for Thresh and Loam decks?

What's with Ajani Goldmane? Everyone seems to SB them, but I cannot figure out what matchups they're good it. Any advice?

For the GP, where (it seems to me) there will be a lot of Goblins and Elves due to card availability, is it correct to play 4 Engineered Plague instead of the seemingly standard 3?

How's the combo matchup? I assume SBing is +MM, +Halo - creature kill?

Would you mind sharing your current list, konsultant?

Are there any modern primers on sideboarding in general?

Thanks.

[Ectoplasm]

I'm planning on playing a list like these at the GP:

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23077
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23091
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23082


...the first of which, I believe, is konsultant's and the other two from a forum user who's name is lost to me as of yet.

I'm new to Landstill, and my knowledge of Legacy is limited, so I had a few questions about the lists.

Is the Ichorid matchup a complete lost cause? It seems like the Relics are almost a token defense against them, but that the matchup is fairly unwinnable without dedicating a large portion of the SB to hate. Are the relics primarily for Thresh and Loam decks?

What's with Ajani Goldmane? Everyone seems to SB them, but I cannot figure out what matchups they're good it. Any advice?

For the GP, where (it seems to me) there will be a lot of Goblins and Elves due to card availability, is it correct to play 4 Engineered Plague instead of the seemingly standard 3?

How's the combo matchup? I assume SBing is +MM, +Halo - creature kill?

Would you mind sharing your current list, konsultant?

Are there any modern primers on sideboarding in general?

Thanks.

I'd like to see a primer on sideboarding as well. Most of it seems common sense, but some things like what to board out against merfolk just seem iffy. I usually take 2 standstills and a decree but it seems like there's a zillion possibilities.

[Rehallek]

...the first of which, I believe, is konsultant's and the other two from a forum user who's name is lost to me as of yet.

The other two lists are rockout's.

[rockout]

OMG I got someone to reference my list! Hoo...RaH! I am Michael Misiaszek. Kevin spelt my name wrong, but o well.

I just realized that everything, besides theoretical situations that I talk about with Rehallek and Mossivo1986, are in the last 20 or so pages of this thread. Konsultant makes a solid point about Elspeth around page 30-40 and both of us talk briefly about why we play vindicate instead of humility. There is also a lot of talk about sb strategies in the mirror, goblins, aggro loam, survival and so on. Relic over Crypt, why we play ajani, why no gy hate, why gy hate, and pretty much anything you can want. Good luck with the reading.

[Henrik]

I have been playing straight UW landstill, have to say though, I am not very good at it.

So I have a quiestion for 3 colour-players using vindicate (which is a cool list btw), do you miss humility at all? When playing UW, I often found humility much more useful than WoG, due to the elspeth and decree advantage.

[Hanni]

I know I was one of the ones wondering just how strong Elspeth was, not because I didn't believe the hype, but rather because I just hadn't gotten around to playtesting it yet. I must say, very strong card. Much stronger than the Eternal Dragons that were in my list.

Here is my new and updated list:

U/W/g Kaezurstill

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [B] Tundra
1 [A] Tropical Island
1 [R] Savannah
4 [OD] Island (4)
2 [5E] Plains (3)
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)

// Spells
2 [ALA] Elspeth Knight-Errant
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
4 [BD] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Standstill
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [R] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
3 [5E] Wrath of God
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [U] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus

I'm still gonna preach the rediculousness that is Counterbalance, maindeck, and will do so till my face turns blue and then some. Beyond that, this deck is a powerhouse. If I were going to play in the GP (which I doubt I'll be able to), this would be the deck I'd be bringing. It has practically no bad matchups, with there being a few exceptions. Those few exceptions are mostly improved with either maindeck Counterbalance, or the sideboard hate.

[Ch@os]

So nothing to counter for cc3, not even Vindicate?

[Henrik]

I thought exactly the same thing...

[Misplayer]

@Hanni: I like your list a lot and I think I'll test it out. Cutting black will be tough for me, but I was probably using Vindicate as a crutch anyway to bail out bad play decisions. Is the Savannah necessary now that you're not running E. Dragon? I think I would rather have a 2nd Tropical Island, especially with 4 Counterbalance and 4 Counterspell, you'll want UU early on a consistent basis, and will usually have time before finding WW becomes relevant.

Also, how are the Goblins/Merfolk matchups without Engineered Plague out of the side? Explosives and CB are strong against Merfolk, but it seems like you'll be leaning heavily on Wrath in the Goblins matchup.

[Hanni]

So nothing to counter for cc3, not even Vindicate?


Unfortunately, nope. There's really no where to fit in a 3cc, aside from I guess dropping the EE's for Grips or Vindicates, which I suppose is something that could and should be tested. Otherwise, you simply have to accept that Counterbalance isn't going to answer everything for you. Counterbalance isn't there to be the be all end all, locking the opponent completely out of the game on its lonesome. What it does is allow you to gain a gradual card advantage over the opponent, answer some key spells, and overall just give you a huge edge. If you try to use it as a crutch, the deck will fail. If you use it as a support tool, it pushes the deck over the top.

In most matchups where I'd want to answer 3cc spells, it usually comes out for sideboard cards (like Blue Elemental Blast). For example, Dragon Stompy and Goblins. However, there are matchups that use 3cc spells that you'd rather have Counterbalance still in it; Aggro Loam being one such deck. Now, I can definitely see advantages for wanting 3cc spells there, but the deck cannot fit enough 3cc spells into the deck to effectively hit the 3 spot. Again, 2 Vindicates in the 2 EE spots is worth testing.

I also know the arguments for Pernicious Deed over Wrath of God specifically for being a 3cc spell. My reasoning behind WoG over Deed is for the fact of synergy and simplicity. WoG is typically more mana effecient, has less foils to it, and doesn't blow up your own Counterbalance. It makes the manabase more stable, it dodges opposing Counterbalances better (moot point), so on and so forth. Having 4cc spells for Counterbalance is still relevant because there are still 4cc bombs worth stopping.

I'll take into consideration splashing black instead of green and running 2 MD Vindicates over EE's, and running EE's in the board. Besides those few possible changes, that maindeck has been nothing short of spectacular for me in every single game I play it in.


@Hanni: I like your list a lot and I think I'll test it out. Cutting black will be tough for me, but I was probably using Vindicate as a crutch anyway to bail out bad play decisions. Is the Savannah necessary now that you're not running E. Dragon? I think I would rather have a 2nd Tropical Island, especially with 4 Counterbalance and 4 Counterspell, you'll want UU early on a consistent basis, and will usually have time before finding WW becomes relevant.

Also, how are the Goblins/Merfolk matchups without Engineered Plague out of the side? Explosives and CB are strong against Merfolk, but it seems like you'll be leaning heavily on Wrath in the Goblins matchup.

Well, if you're a big black splash advocate, just drop green for black. The only purpose for the green splash is Krosan Grip, which could instead become Vindicate. The Savannah is still nice given the fact that the deck runs a 4/2 split of Islands/Plains and you have just as many WW spells that you want to cast as UU. However, I'm not deadset on that and the Savannah could just as easily become another Tropical Island. Further playtesting would be more appropriate for that sort of decision.

Goblins does not need Engineered Plague. Between StP, BEB, Wrath, and even EE, the deck has boatloads of removal. Not saying that the matchup is fantastic, but the stable manabase alongside the plethora of removal should allow the deck to keep guys off the table, keep the life total high enough, draw enough cards, and get a solid defense going via Factory/Decree/Elspeth. I have not yet done sufficient testing against Merfolk with Landstill, so I'm not going to touch on that matchup much yet. However, I don't see why Counterbalance would be a bad card in that matchup given the amount of 1cc and 2cc spells (and 4cc too, right?) that they run.

[Viscosity]

Good advice Konsultant. Merfolk, Survival Elves, Goblins, Faeries, Slivers... These are all threats. Taking out the FoW is the right thing to do.

Klaus. I played your deck at my local event last week and we must be playing in different Metas. The spot removal clogged up my hand while I got overwhelmed by more control oriented cards like Counterbalance. I lost to elves pretty bad (I won first game through drawing tons of spot removal and getting land drops, but a resolved vial or Survival was GG). I had recurring mana curve issues throughout the night. And inconsistent draws resulting in mulligans. Ended up going 1-3, which is the worst I've done in a long time. My rating cried.

With the increasing amount of random Natural Order decks (or Natural Order splashes) I'm inclined to move back to running 3 WoG, 3 EE, 4 Swords.

I also prefer Landstill that is predominantly 2 colors, not 3 or 4. Mana curve issues ruin opening hands and open you up to mana denial. I like to be able to fetch basics and still cast what I'm holding. This is impossible when you run double white cards, with double blue cards, and vindicate.

Every time I test vindicate I don't find it as amazing as everyone says it is. It is slow, and does not always answer counterbalance. Each time I targeted a CB with it, it got countered (trinket mage, threads, shackles). But the same guy countered my EE that I spent 4 mana casting! (sower)

Hanni - consider plagues. It isn't so much about goblins, but it does make goblins even easier. Don't underestimate Faeries, Elves, Merfolk, or slivers!

Most of those decks have things that really make it hard for landstill. I've been running plagues recently and it is my favorite card right now, lol.

I run one underground sea and one Trop in the main + 2 mox diamond (most people criticize the mox right before a game they lose because of it)

SB is subject to change but is currently:

3 plague
2 Grip
3 relic
3 meddling mage
3 counterbalance
1 top

[konsultant]

I'm planning on playing a list like these at the GP:

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23077
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23091
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23082


...the first of which, I believe, is konsultant's and the other two from a forum user who's name is lost to me as of yet.

I'm new to Landstill, and my knowledge of Legacy is limited, so I had a few questions about the lists.

Is the Ichorid matchup a complete lost cause? It seems like the Relics are almost a token defense against them, but that the matchup is fairly unwinnable without dedicating a large portion of the SB to hate. Are the relics primarily for Thresh and Loam decks?

What's with Ajani Goldmane? Everyone seems to SB them, but I cannot figure out what matchups they're good it. Any advice?

For the GP, where (it seems to me) there will be a lot of Goblins and Elves due to card availability, is it correct to play 4 Engineered Plague instead of the seemingly standard 3?

How's the combo matchup? I assume SBing is +MM, +Halo - creature kill?

Would you mind sharing your current list, konsultant?

Are there any modern primers on sideboarding in general?

Thanks.

I would urge playing 4x Plague's, I always stick with 4 and don't plan on ever changing it.

For side boarding and some thoughts on Ajani I would say read back a bunch of page's and you should find the information you are looking for.

Ichorid doesn't have to be an autoloss but would require a retooling of the entire SB for a match that you aren't really ever going to win game one. I'm not saying it isn't worth trying it and I have been testing different things out but you would need to make the post SB games close to 90% in your favor to be able to expect to win the round against it. Getting your chance's of winning up that high would require atleast 6-8 very relevent cards against the deck. While you can do it, it means you are taking away from other match's whitch probably isn't worth it. That said I have just recently made a breakthrough with my own SB that I will be playing at the GP whitch does have a realistic chance of beating Ichorid.

My list as of right now is the same for the MD as is the most recent post for it in this thread. The entire SB has been changed but due to the value of the surprise factor I won't be revealing it on the eve of the GP.

Good luck to all attending, my PM's are getting flooded with questions and various lists and I apologize to anybody I haven't been able to respond to yet but I will get to them in the very near future.

[Hanni]

I've found myself recently wishing that the Krosan Grips in my board were Vindicates. In alot of matchups, the opponent has only 1 or 2 problematic artifacts/enchantments but alot of problematic creatures, and I can never find anything I want to drop for Krosan Grip and often don't side them in. Vindicate fixes that problem by lending far more versatility to my gameplan. Split second can sometimes be invaluable, but versatility can also be invaluable.

However, I'm still not sure if I want EE's maindeck and Vindicates sideboard, or vice versa. For now I'm still doing the EE's in the maindeck, but I still need to thoroughly test that. Overall, I'm very satisfied with the rest of the deck and I don't see myself making any changes to it anytime soon. I'm very pleased with Counterbalance Landstill and truly believe it is the best deck in the format.

I'm also considering Oblivion Ring.

[klaus]

I've found myself recently wishing that the Krosan Grips in my board were Vindicates. In alot of matchups, the opponent has only 1 or 2 problematic artifacts/enchantments but alot of problematic creatures, and I can never find anything I want to drop for Krosan Grip and often don't side them in. Vindicate fixes that problem by lending far more versatility to my gameplan. Split second can sometimes be invaluable, but versatility can also be invaluable.

However, I'm still not sure if I want EE's maindeck and Vindicates sideboard, or vice versa. For now I'm still doing the EE's in the maindeck, but I still need to thoroughly test that. Overall, I'm very satisfied with the rest of the deck and I don't see myself making any changes to it anytime soon. I'm very pleased with Counterbalance Landstill and truly believe it is the best deck in the format.
I'm also considering Oblivion Ring.

Vindicate & Obliovion Ring are the 2 cards among those roughly 20.000 non-land cards out there that have have the biggest MD sign on their foreheads.
It's that simple: either maindeck them or leave em be. They are general answers to a broad spectrum of problems. Sideboard cards are supposed to be answers to specific problems that the MD can't deal with efficiently.
Krosan Grip being one of the prime examples here.

EE used to be a a popular SB card back in the day when Belcher.dec was played a lot. Today EE, just like Vindicate and O. Ring has become one of those "non-SB cards", too.

[Marke]

If you are going to play counterbalance in landstill wouldn't you be better of to go dreadstill? counterbalance seems to fit the cheap style of that deck better then it does in landstill i think, because the curve is lower. That makes it easier to set up cards for CB and gives you daze to protect CB.

[3duece]

Hanni, I know you're a good deckbuilder and I respect you as a player, but that's the worst goddamn counterbalance curve in existence. I know its a tempting, powerful tool but your deck simply cannot support it. Play something else in that slot. Spell snare is very good.

[thefreakaccident]

I like to play a more standard list with CB in the side and a few tops in the main... the configuration works out great for me.


As far as plague goes, I think that it would be a strong include for the current metagame (although maybe not entirely needed, it can help).

[Omega]

Playing mox diamond in landstill seem like a pretty bad idea

eats 2 slots.

sure, power a first turn standstill. Is it really that good? Is it worth the 2 slots?

Id rather have some more removal/counter with those 2 slots

About 3 colors :
with 1 eternal dragon and 1 crucible of worlds, you can fix up things. But i do agree that it can be a problem, but we only run 3 vindicate, so color should not be a problem. And vindicate versatility make nicely for the 3 color

Robert

[Omega]

my SB is
4 meddling mage (combo mainly)
3 relic of progenitus (ichorid usually. Threshold is not a problem with the MD)
3 perish (elves)
2 ajani goldmane
3 blue elemental blast

Here is my siding strategy against mirror match

-4 standstill (you can or not SB them out. If you dont, dont bring in the MM)
-2 wrath of god (not useful)
-2 humility (can be useful if they play goyfs and tombstalker)

+2 ajani goldmane (planeswalkers rock the mirror)
+4 meddling mage (meh)
+2 relic of progenitus (prevent them from abusing Crucible of worlds)

against burn : Its really hard, but the only way of winning is to get a quick ajani goldmane in play. Then, the game is stalled and you win that way.
-2 wrath of god
-4 swords to plowshare
-2 engineered explosives
+3 blue elemental blast
+2 ajani goldmane
+3 meddling mage

Against threshold :
-2 wrath of gold, +2 perish.

Against Dreadstill :
Not too sure. You can side out standstill, in which case you can bring in ajani goldmane and 2 meddling mage. (I dont like using standstill in the mirror)

Against merfolk :
-2 standstill
+2 ajani goldmane

against goblin :
-4 standstill
-1 spellsnare
+3 blue elemental blast
+2 ajani goldmane


Not sure if my sB strats work. But i did have some success locally.
Some people might disagree with the standstill going out. Ajani shines in the mirror, against aggro and against most deck using CB. It gives you some tempo (life gain) and can eventually turn into a big monster

[Raider Bob]

Board Strategy

UWB Landstill -

Meddling Mage
Orims Chant
Ajani
E Plague
Relic

Ajani, E Plague is probably the Strongest Choice. Chant is Strong coupled with the Combo Field that is out there so if we do 4 Plague, 2 Ajani, 3 Chants that leaves 6 slots. Is Mage really that important or is Relic really that important because several other cards could be splashed around to make a few other match ups stronger.

[Aethan]

Is Martial Coup a viable choice in this deck?

[FredMaster]

nope
#

[mossivo1986]

So I'm thinking my sideboard is going to go as follows.

SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 3 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 2 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
SB: 1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 1 [TSP] Return to Dust
SB: 2 [FNM] Engineered Plague

It turns out that I really enjoy the 2-2 split of relic/ vendillion rather then having it go 3-3 which is alittle harder on the manabase. I also dumped 1 maindeck relic and put the 3rd ee. From the side I dumped the 2nd runed halo. Basicly the theory behind it all was that the decks that runed halo is good against Im already doing fine in. Double white can also be somewhat of a problem to just call on at will sometimes. These are all notes and changes from dif's list.

[Marke]

Chant seems inferior to mage against combo(duress proof), mage is also useful in a ton of other matchups where swords is dead.
I prefer the Uwb version atm. Vindicate main has just been great for me in testing as it can get rid of any problematic permanent allowing you to drop standstill easier. It also serves the role of krosan grip but more versatile then it, the ability to hit planeswalkers is fantastic, something a combination of grip and Stp can never do. Furthermore engineered plague seems to be fantastic now as merfolk is such a popular deck, and its very good against goblins and elves too, which are certainly popular due to them being the cheapest reasonable decks. And then there is even some sliver and faerie, most aggro strategies just seem to be tribal at the moment.
The only thing i don't get is why ajani is so popular as a board card. It seems soso in the mirror and against burn. Against burn isn't something like CoP:red much better? For the mirror i dont see the big use of ajani. The token pump ability seems hardly usefull as you don't have many creatures, life gain seems fairly irrelevant as the mirror is won on board advantage in my testing and building up to the ultimate takes fairly long. Jace seems to be the better planeswalker to me for the mirror.
I wonder if extra direct card advantage cards aren't better though for the mirror as the mirror seems to be won on that. Perhaps something like night's whisper or confidant is better to put in the sb for the mirror.

[jazzykat]

WRT Anjani: I didn't get it either at first. It just sort of wins games real subtly. Even if an opponent deals with the first avatar token the fact that damage race math is skewed in your favor is often enough to take the game. Also, planeswalkers are ridiculously hard to deal with since once resolved the only commonly played answers are: EE , Oblivion Ring, and Vindicate. Of the three cards mentioned 2 require white, 1 requires black, and 1 requires access to 4 colors. So if you aren't at least playing white or 4 color/EE you either counter it or suck it. Well, that's not completely true you can attack it but that requires you to have creatures and Anjani is being attacked you go up life.... again keeping you alive turns longer.

[Marke]

Well i think ANY good list should either play either vindicate or o-ring in its 75 as the sheer versatility of them is just great. Krosan grip is a narrow card against many CB decks but o-ring/vindicate is incredibly versatile. Still the power of ajani in the mirror seems good though it is less good against goyfstill and dreadstill etc. I wonder if you're not just better off to run some extra elspeth's, or ajani vengeant and red because goldmane's abilities seem to have so little synergy with the deck. There are hardly no creatures except factories and soldier tokens to pump, life gain is not really relevant mostly and the ultimate is 'ok' but easily countered by EE or anything else.
It seems to me there must be alot more sideboard directed to mirror or close mirror matches as they are a big part of the field. The best general sideboard generally is the sideboard that at least replaces dead cards in every matchup. In the mirror we got about 4 to 7 crap cards depending on your exact list and opponent's list but at least the standstill's and wrath of god's/humilities need replacing. Given we usually play the same or near same cards as the opponent meddling mage is fairly crap in the (near) mirror as the cards we differ in are usually only a 2 or 3-of or near irrelevant by the time mage hits the table(daze). Relic of progenitus is also fairly weak in the mirror as it messes with your crucible as much as theirs usually, the tap ability is too slow to keep up with crucible usually.
Therefore a board like mossivo's or Omega's seems horrible to me as it lacks any real power for the dreadstill and landstill matchup which is a fair percentage of the metagame.
Cards that may be good for the mirror is stuff like vendilion clique. Flying over soldier tokens/factories owns and flash with a decent ability is awesome. Other consideration may be o-ring/vindicate. The reason i'm mentioning these cards is that they are highly usefull in other matchups as well so we still have some extra power against the other matchups.
The sideboard really must be made with the amount of dead cards in every matchup in mind so replacing will give the biggest improvement rounded out over every matchup. Legacy has so many decks anyway that making it too specific will not be effective anyway.

[FredMaster]

Alright I've Top8ed in a 34 player tournament around here again. I went 4-1-1becoming 6th due to an awful oppscore.

The list was the same like last time except for -2 Halo and +2 Plagues in the SB.
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23119

1st Round: Boros/Sligh 1:2
2nd Round: Dredge 2:1
3rd Round: Dreadstill (Ugr) 1:1
The first game took about 30 minutes. In the second one he lowered my lifecounter quite fast with some Factories and a Trinket Mage.
I manage to stabilize a bit, leaving him only 2 Factories, while I had one myself. I was on about 3 at that time and he was attacking with one factory so I had to block when he Fires my Mishra which got him the draw a few minutes before the extra turns. Unlucky me.
4th Round: Clerics 2:0
5th Round: Deathcloud-Loam 2:1
6th Round: Ch@os with ITF 2:1

Thoughts on the list:
- I've been playing the constellation for quite a bit and I think the Wrath of God is becoming less and less important
- Sensei's Divining Top and Elspeth are the best cards in the deck
- Kor Haven is stronger than it looks like
- I would love to see a Circle of Protection: Red in the sideboard because I hate to loose against Sligh

Comments?

[Ch@os]

Comments?

I like it.


But whats about the 4th Factory instead of Kor Haven?

[mossivo1986]

Alright I've Top8ed in a 34 player tournament around here again. I went 4-1-1becoming 6th due to an awful oppscore.

The list was the same like last time except for -2 Halo and +2 Plagues in the SB.
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23119

1st Round: Boros/Sligh 1:2
2nd Round: Dredge 2:1
3rd Round: Dreadstill (Ugr) 1:1
The first game took about 30 minutes. In the second one he lowered my lifecounter quite fast with some Factories and a Trinket Mage.
I manage to stabilize a bit, leaving him only 2 Factories, while I had one myself. I was on about 3 at that time and he was attacking with one factory so I had to block when he Fires my Mishra which got him the draw a few minutes before the extra turns. Unlucky me.
4th Round: Clerics 2:0
5th Round: Deathcloud-Loam 2:1
6th Round: Ch@os with ITF 2:1

Thoughts on the list:
- I've been playing the constellation for quite a bit and I think the Wrath of God is becoming less and less important
- Sensei's Divining Top and Elspeth are the best cards in the deck
- Kor Haven is stronger than it looks like
- I would love to see a Circle of Protection: Red in the sideboard because I hate to loose against Sligh

Comments?

I like your list. If I were going to pilot it at the GP tommorow heres what I would do:

-1 Crucible
-1 Standstill

+2 Fact or Fiction


I also might strongly consider tormod's crypt in place of the second humility for reasons of tolaria westing for it and setting it off. It stays good with academy ruins and it opens 1 low up for your sb for a 3rd EP.

3 meddling
3 Hydro
4 EP
3 relic
2 ajani

This seems strong for a gp enviornment.

[mossivo1986]

4 tundra
4 flooded strand
1 underground sea
1 scrubland
3 island
3 plains
3 mishra
1 tolaria west
1 dustbowl
1 academy ruins

4 force
4 brainstorm
4 swords 29
3 spell snare
2 cunning wish
1 fact or fiction

2 wrath
2 decree
2 ponder

2 Vendillion clique
2 elspeth

3 standstill
3 ee
2 relic
1 sensei's devining top
1 humility

sb:
1 Pulse
1 extirpate
1 enlightened tutor
1 return to dust
1 path to exile
1 hydro
1 Beb
3 MM
2 EP
2 Ajani
1 relic of progen.

I am seriously considering removing return to dust in favor of 3rd ep and wondered what my peeps think. Obviously pithing needle naming ee means I cannot blow up enchants/ or artis but in alot of the games I have played that play really doesnt happen and honestly im not sure an opponent fearing ee wouldn't name relic anyways. The difference between dropping return to dust for EP could be legit, but I'm simply curious as to what others actually think.

[Marke]

Mossivo, in the mirror and against dreadstill you want to side out 3 standstill 2 wrath and the humility = 6 cards. Seeing your board you only got 2 ajani's to bring is which means that you will still have 4 near dead cards in the mirror. Isn't it just much better to drop the wishboard and go for some extra cards. Cunning wish is awfully slow and the wish targets are not stellar at all...
Extirpate, decent card but rarely useful. Rarely steals more then 1 card out of someones hand and what did runs only 1 win con that goes to the grave early??
Path to exile, paying 4 mana with the wish to RFG a creature is slow.
Enlightened tutor, card disadvantage and slow, what targets do you really need to get so badly with this??
Pulse = ok but i rather have something faster, wishing for this takes 6 mana to get your first 4 life and needs WW.
Return to dust, also not really stellar not too often u want to hit 2 artifacts/enchantments.
Beb and hydro, ok but again not really stellar.
As you see most of these cards give you a 1 for 1 which is not good enough to run wish, if you want versatile 1 for 1 play vindicate. It does almost the same thing and costs a whole lot less. If you want a nice tutor package to help you deal with gravedecks and a whole bunch of other stuff play trinket mage.

A list like Fredmasters' is a lot more solid. I would just drop the academy ruins/dust bowl/kor haven and just run wastelands. Wastelands help more with standstill and the deck has enough manasinks so we dont need ruis/bowl/kor haven. Also why is everyone running 4x meddling mage, i HIGHLY suggest replacing 2 of them with vendilion clique. Clique owns in the mirror (kills elspeth, removes critical stuff) and is possibly even better against combo. THe biggest problem with mage for me is that its not that good in mirror matches where like i said a ton of times you NEED cards for. Dreadstill/landstill is very popular and having something to give you an edge there is great, especially because you avoid getting needless draws as well.

[mossivo1986]

QUOTE=Marke;324446]Mossivo, in the mirror and against dreadstill you want to side out 3 standstill 2 wrath and the humility = 6 cards. Seeing your board you only got 2 ajani's to bring is which means that you will still have 4 near dead cards in the mirror.

If I go with my original sideboard for this example heres how I would sideboard.

-3 Standstill
-2 Wrath
-1 Humility

+3 Meddling Mage
+2 Ajani
+1 Relic




Isn't it just much better to drop the wishboard and go for some extra cards. Cunning wish is awfully slow and the wish targets are not stellar at all...




Extirpate, decent card but rarely useful. Rarely steals more then 1 card out of someones hand and what did runs only 1 win con that goes to the grave early??

The point of pate isn't neccesarily to steal cards out of my opponents hand in this case. Pates purpose is to stop recuring cards like loam/ genesis/ or randomly remove hard to get targets like mongoose. Its worth the mana, its been tested, and its the original reason wish still was formed.


Path to exile, paying 4 mana with the wish to RFG a creature is slow.

Agreed and had I not been splitting it 1-1-1 with hydro- BEB it wouldn't take up a slot, but because it basicly serves a dual purpose swapping out a single hydroblast to give your wish an additional target it becomes fundamentally a better slot. The matchups you side in hydro generally you will side in path as well so reasonably speaking its an ok transition regardless of that it may be a 4 mana swords


Enlightened tutor, card disadvantage and slow, what targets do you really need to get so badly with this??
humility-standstill-top- are the main 3, outside of that once in a while ee or relic in some matchups.


Pulse = ok but i rather have something faster, wishing for this takes 6 mana to get your first 4 life and needs WW.

In a mainly u/w control deck ww rarely is an issue. as for 6 mana, yes it does have some effect on the game, but generally it ends the game the first time you cast it succesfully against the decks it is meant to wish against.


Return to dust, also not really stellar not too often u want to hit 2 artifacts/enchantments.

That was what I was truly asking about. But ive decided not to take this slot out and i will be staying at 2 EP.


Beb and hydro, ok but again not really stellar.

See any form of loam, see creight belcher, see dragon stompy, see red deck wins, see goblins, see ant running red splash, see dreadstill running red splash for reb, see goyf slight, and there are many more matchups that I simply do not have the time to name off.


As you see most of these cards give you a 1 for 1 which is not good enough to run wish, if you want versatile 1 for 1 play vindicate.

Wish gives you answers to matchups that vindicate simply does not have. Its not difficult to see that I'd rather have the answers then the efficiency. I'd rather win every game one I played and then drag out game 2, or at the very least have more of a toolbox answer build then a generally null card. Wish implies that I run 2 answers of anything I choose. Remember that. I can tell you in my 2-3 years of experiance with landstill i'd never trade wish and the four slots in my sb for anything else unless the metagame called for it.


It does almost the same thing and costs a whole lot less.

Depending on the matchup, and if you notice my maindeck has a substantially better game against problem matchups like ichorid, ant. I also never loose game ones to survival which vindicate still can and does.


If you want a nice tutor package to help you deal with gravedecks and a whole bunch of other stuff play trinket mage.

An additional target to get stifled that you can only cast at sorcery speed isn't what landstill wants to do. Also my answers are more precise then what trinket has to offer me.

I'm deffinately not trying to sound rude but if you haven't played wish still, which it seems to me that you haven't as your questioning basicly all the sb slots designed around the card and saying that im better off running trinket mage, which is the exact opposite of what any landstill player actually wants to do.

[Raider Bob]

vendilion clique

What am I missing on the whole Vendilion Clique popularity. A 3/1 creature that replaces a card in hand with Flash, is this a combo disrupter? At 3 mana is would seem Counterspell would just be better, or the plethra of other spells that Landstill normally would run. Turn 3 at best seems like if your playing combo it is too slow, if your playing against creatures Wrath is better or swords or Vindicate or Spell Snare or EE or anything. If there is a glaring reason this card is being played please tell me so I can understand.

A 3/1 Flash(Like Haste) that can replace a card in your hand whom has evasion to smack a Plainswalker right after it is cast seems like it should just be Vindicate.

[mossivo1986]

vendilion clique

What am I missing on the whole Vendilion Clique popularity. A 3/1 creature that replaces a card in hand with Flash, is this a combo disrupter? At 3 mana is would seem Counterspell would just be better, or the plethra of other spells that Landstill normally would run. Turn 3 at best seems like if your playing combo it is too slow, if your playing against creatures Wrath is better or swords or Vindicate or Spell Snare or EE or anything. If there is a glaring reason this card is being played please tell me so I can understand.

A 3/1 Flash(Like Haste) that can replace a card in your hand whom has evasion to smack a Plainswalker right after it is cast seems like it should just be Vindicate.

Its no good, don't run it. See you at the gp :)

[Wargoos]

I definitaley agree with Raider.
Having a cc3 spell that answers permanents overall is quite better than a cc3 creaturespell, being fragile and just replacing one handcard.

Vindicate wins here.

[Marke]

Having access to a wishboard is just too slow i'm sure. Sure there are matchups where catching a extirpate g1 will be nice but with only 2 wish and the number of sideboard spots it kind of wastes its just not worth it. It basically weakens the matchup against all tier 1 decks as the wishcards are not THAT useful there, given the added mana cost of wish. There are not many cards played that we totally roll over too and landstill always has counters to deal with them as well. I didnt mean to say trinket mage is a good choice in this deck but if you really feel you need some tutor targets to help against some of the tier 2 decks it's just more efficient.

Raider bob the reason i suggest vendilion clique is that it's good to have a card that is useful in the mirror and against combo. Meddling mage is fine against combo but just isn't so great in mirror matches because you tend to play the same cards. The cards your lists differ in tend to be a) only a 2 or 3-of b) played before mage comes online (daze) c) hard to guess thus hard to name and d) can be shuffled away with brainstorm. These reasons together just mean that meddling mage is a grizzly bear 90% of the time in close mirrors that is even hard to cast.
I'm not saying that vendilion clique is totally awesome in the mirror but it's an efficiently costed beater, easier resolved then other creatures, flies which rules in the mirror and is fairly cheap which is neccesary as we are removing cheap cards as well to keep the curve in tact.
I'm all open for a better card in the mirror that is also usefull against other matchups and is in color. Of all the mirror tech along with ajani i've found clique to be the best for me so far. All i'm saying that it might be good to consider running a 2-2 split of mage and clique in the board instead of 3-4 mages... So far I haven't heard a single argument why this wouldn't be better. Otherwise i would gladly here how you SB against dreadstill and landstill and how you use those meddling mage's...
Main i 100% agree by the way that vindicate is better, fact remains that you need useful cards for your standstills, and wog's/humilities to bring in even if you play vindicate main (which i think is great if the metagame is friendly enough for 3 colors)

[Raider Bob]

Thoughts on the Landstill Mirror.

A few weeks ago My teammate and Myself went to a tournament and played the identical deck with 2 different cards in the sideboard(I ran 2 Parish and he ran 2 Chainers edict) for anyone who cares but we ended up playing in the top 8.

The Games went Like this

I drew 3 extra cards off my standstill cause I drew Decree of Justice and an Extra Mishra game 1, so I won.

Game 2 He drew 3 Extra cards and created a stronger mana base off a recurring Dragon and won game 2.

Game 3 I ended up beating him because I took a risk that I could keep him off of white mana long enough to beat him(I would have Punted the game if I could not keep him off WW and if you have run Kunsultants list you know this shouldn't happen often) I dropped Ajani and Gained a lot of life and beat him down.

So in the Mirror in a game where you are on a par skill level it should be about what you draw and what choices are made. Running the vendilion clique over the 4th Decree or an Elspeth or even the 4th Mishra Factory seems like a sub par card choice if your looking for a card to sure up the mirror problem.

[Marke]

The argument that the mirror is won on skill doesnt have a thing to do with what cards you run for the mirror though.. Because skill and what you draw matters alot in a matchup its okay to just keep playing dead cards in your list?
Standstill is a near dead card in the mirror, symmetrical cards can be great if your deck is better able to abuse the effect then your opponent. Given that that ability is (nearly) the same in the mirror there is absolutely no reason to run it in the mirror, thus you will have 4 to 6 dead cards in the mirror....
Standstill is a win more card in the mirror thus it's better to play a card that actually helps you give an advantage... Once again i NEVER said running vendilion clique over elspeth, decree, factory or whatever. If you for some reason have these in your board replace the standstills with them offcourse. Extra decree's or elspeths are too narrow for the board though as they are only usefull in the mirror whereas vendilion clique is usefull against a lot of stuff. Extra decree's and elspeths also fit the curve less well then vendilion clique's would therefore clique's can be usefull for the mirror.
Not running clique's because there is simply no room in the board and thus we accept to play dead cards in the mirror is a good argument I could agree with. Saying running clique is bad because the mirror is about what choices are made is non-argument though that defies every logic behind every sideboard ever made...

Conclusion: With landstill (and dreadstill) being a fair percentage of the metagame I think it IS useful to run extra cards that are usefull in the mirror, as decree and elspeth are too narrow some other card would be good. As SB space is limited and we have dead cards against combo etc as well it would be logical to chose a broad card for this role. That can be o-ring, vindicate, vendilion etc where I like vendilion the most..

[Citrus-God]

The argument that the mirror is won on skill doesnt have a thing to do with what cards you run for the mirror though.. Because skill and what you draw matters alot in a matchup its okay to just keep playing dead cards in your list?

Mirror is won off skill... and cards, of course, but Standstill for sure, is not a dead card. Standstill, if anything, is key in that match up. The cards that are dead are Wrath of God and Humility. But if you want to know what I mean, play the Solidarity mirror.

Standstill, forces the game to be played differently. If they keep breaking Standstills, then you win off card quality advantage and mana base stabilization. If they play under Standstill, then utilize cards like Wasteland, Mishra's Factory and Decree of Justice to force your opponent to break Standstill.


Standstill is a near dead card in the mirror, symmetrical cards can be great if your deck is better able to abuse the effect then your opponent.

Run Decree of Justice.



Given that that ability is (nearly) the same in the mirror there is absolutely no reason to run it in the mirror, thus you will have 4 to 6 dead cards in the mirror....

It's the control mirror, you discard EOT frequently anyway. You even discard cards like Cunning Wish during discard step frequently, it's nothing special.


Standstill is a win more card in the mirror thus it's better to play a card that actually helps you give an advantage...

Play some games in the mirror where you actually side out Standstills and they keep them in. They'll be drawing cards to no end and function under Standstill.


Extra decree's or elspeths are too narrow for the board though as they are only usefull in the mirror whereas vendilion clique is usefull against a lot of stuff.

DoJs are quite useful against Aggro Loam.



Extra decree's and elspeths also fit the curve less well then vendilion clique's would therefore clique's can be usefull for the mirror.

Since when has control decks ever had a mana curve?



Conclusion: With landstill (and dreadstill) being a fair percentage of the metagame I think it IS useful to run extra cards that are usefull in the mirror, as decree and elspeth are too narrow some other card would be good.

Decree of Justice and Elspeth are narrow, how?

If you can still function off Standstill, then you should be leaving Standstills in your deck. I don't understand the fuss about DoJ being narrow in the mirror when it's actually the card that actually wins you mirror matches and makes you function under Standstill better.


Although, I won't be bashing Vendellion Clique; it at least takes out Life from the Loam against Aggro Loam. Although, I'm still skeptic because it's a creature. So if anything, you should be running 3 Cliques over the 2 Chainer's Edicts and 1 Meddling Mage in the SB, assuming you would hypothetically find them useful.

[i_need_the_extra_turns]

Thoughts on the Landstill Mirror:

My experience is that the mirror is a fight for lands and a stable manabase.
CoW wins here the game and additional wastelands or opportunities to find dust bowl are very important.

And standstill IS important too. First, 3 extra cards should win u the game in the most cases and when u know that u have superiority under a standstill with your build u should leave (at least some) standstill in.

One card is also strong for the mirror: Extirpate.
An extirpate on FoW or Counterspell gives u a huge advantage in all control mirrors.

[Benie Bederios]

Hi,

Why so many wishtargets? I tested the deck with the following Wishboard against most top-tier decks( Threshold, DreadStill, Aggro-Loam, TES, ITF, Stax and Goblins):

1 Extirpate
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Slaughter Pact( pre Path to Exile)
1 Return to Dust
1 Pulse of the Field
1 Enlightened Tutor

In about 10 games against each deck(pre-board) I tutored for:

1x Enlightened Tutor( for a Standstill)
0x Red Elemental Blast
1x Slaughter Pact

So I decided to cut those cards and leave the 3 most versatile wishtargets. This is my complete SB:


1 Extirpate
1 Pulse of the Field
1 Return to Dust

4 Meddling Mage
3 Engineered Plague
3 Runed Halo
2 Ajani Goldmane

I like to make room for one more Engineered Plague though.

BB

[Citrus-God]

One card is also strong for the mirror: Extirpate.
An extirpate on FoW or Counterspell gives u a huge advantage in all control mirrors.

A killer play post-board is a Wasteland -> Extirpate. Oh man, not only have your Standstills become draw engines, you just won the Standstill superiority war.

[Raider Bob]

Extirpate in the Landstill Mirror is probably the best card you can run, unfortunatly it is not the best side board card for any of the other match-ups you want to make better.

[Marke]

How is landstill GOOD in the mirror?? Because both players have (nearly) the same cards it is just as likely that you have to break your standstill instead of him.. In fact because you play standstill whereas your opponent could be playing more useful cards the chance is even bigger that you have to break your own standstill. All these arguments about your decree working under your standstill are irrelevant as his decree works under it too...
Only if you know that standstill is definately in your favor it is useful to leave them in really, but since almost all builds run 4 factory 3 wasteland and 2-3 decree, 9 out of 10 times you will have trouble abusing it. With extirpate sb it becomes a different issue as the wasteland extirpate play on factory will allow you to abuse standstill. I hadn't thought of that before and it may be the best way to go for the mirror given that extirpate is useful in a decent amount of other matches too. It can for example force a shuffle against combo decks to screw up mystical tutor and has its uses against loam and ichorid.

Also citrusgod, what i ment by DoJ and elsepth being narrow is that running extra of them in the board would probably suck as they are only great in the mirror. They have some uses in other matches perhaps but not much.

I just don't get why most people assume that the player that plays standstill is nearly always the one benefitting from it. Offcourse you would probably not play it if you were behind on board already but plenty of times in the mirror you can play it just to notice a couple turns later that he drew more wasteland/factories/decree's. If you ever break your own it costed you 4 cards, that to me is just not worth the risk unless you have good additional cards to make sure standstill will benefit you more like extirpate.

[3duece]

How is landstill GOOD in the mirror?? Because both players have (nearly) the same cards it is just as likely that you have to break your standstill instead of him.. In fact because you play standstill whereas your opponent could be playing more useful cards the chance is even bigger that you have to break your own standstill. All these arguments about your decree working under your standstill are irrelevant as his decree works under it too...
Only if you know that standstill is definately in your favor it is useful to leave them in really, but since almost all builds run 4 factory 3 wasteland and 2-3 decree, 9 out of 10 times you will have trouble abusing it. With extirpate sb it becomes a different issue as the wasteland extirpate play on factory will allow you to abuse standstill. I hadn't thought of that before and it may be the best way to go for the mirror given that extirpate is useful in a decent amount of other matches too. It can for example force a shuffle against combo decks to screw up mystical tutor and has its uses against loam and ichorid.

Also citrusgod, what i ment by DoJ and elsepth being narrow is that running extra of them in the board would probably suck as they are only great in the mirror. They have some uses in other matches perhaps but not much.

I just don't get why most people assume that the player that plays standstill is nearly always the one benefitting from it. Offcourse you would probably not play it if you were behind on board already but plenty of times in the mirror you can play it just to notice a couple turns later that he drew more wasteland/factories/decree's. If you ever break your own it costed you 4 cards, that to me is just not worth the risk unless you have good additional cards to make sure standstill will benefit you more like extirpate.

Certain builds of landstill perform better in the mirror than others. For instance, 4c landstill traditionally has more powerful cards like deed, but its manabase sucks and, more importantly, it can't apply as much pressure under a standstill than other builds. The versions with factory, decree, dragon, and either wasteland or tolaria west/dust bowl will perform much better and likely win the standoff.

Yes, extirpate is good in the mirror, very good really. But I've found that it fails in other matchups in comparison to more broad grave hate. Especially since alot of decks you would boarding this in against either run burning wish or will still go off in your face. Unless your meta is infested with slow control or you plan on running 7 or 8 grave hate slots, I'd always choose crypt or relic over extirpate, especially if you're playing academy ruins.

[konsultant]

How is landstill GOOD in the mirror?? Because both players have (nearly) the same cards it is just as likely that you have to break your standstill instead of him.. In fact because you play standstill whereas your opponent could be playing more useful cards the chance is even bigger that you have to break your own standstill. All these arguments about your decree working under your standstill are irrelevant as his decree works under it too...
Only if you know that standstill is definately in your favor it is useful to leave them in really, but since almost all builds run 4 factory 3 wasteland and 2-3 decree, 9 out of 10 times you will have trouble abusing it. With extirpate sb it becomes a different issue as the wasteland extirpate play on factory will allow you to abuse standstill. I hadn't thought of that before and it may be the best way to go for the mirror given that extirpate is useful in a decent amount of other matches too. It can for example force a shuffle against combo decks to screw up mystical tutor and has its uses against loam and ichorid.

Also citrusgod, what i ment by DoJ and elsepth being narrow is that running extra of them in the board would probably suck as they are only great in the mirror. They have some uses in other matches perhaps but not much.

I just don't get why most people assume that the player that plays standstill is nearly always the one benefitting from it. Offcourse you would probably not play it if you were behind on board already but plenty of times in the mirror you can play it just to notice a couple turns later that he drew more wasteland/factories/decree's. If you ever break your own it costed you 4 cards, that to me is just not worth the risk unless you have good additional cards to make sure standstill will benefit you more like extirpate.


My statement wasn't the first player to play Standstill it was the first player to draw off Standstill is typically the winner in the mirror. Boarding out Standstills for Meddling Mage is a realistic strategy it just isn't one that I endorse. It's very rare that you run into the exact same build of Landstill in a tournament, the exception being off course it's one of your teammates and you are helping them for the GP and they beat you with your own deck in the top 8 - Fuck You Bob for ending my 3 year winning streak in the mirror, normally speaking there are difference's. You kinda need to make judgement calls on what to do or not do based on what those differences are.

[mossivo1986]

As a 3c wish still pilot heres how I would do it.

AGAINST:

4c landstill: keep standstills in
3c vindicate still: Keep standstills in
3c wish still: Side them out
2c landstill "basicly mono blue control splash swords and effective white control cards: keep them in.

So basicly all sides lead to keeping them in for the most part. I can't argue that siding them out could be alot better of a choice, but the person who conrols the standstill in hand should be able to harness the power of it or simply use it for force bait if necessary. Bottom line I would say its better if you run it versus not running it. Not running standstill means you take the risk of making your deck a slow control variant that cheeses off of its original 7. That to me doesn't sound very appealing.

As for extirpate being good in the mirror, its not just good it's game breaking. Removing an elspeth or a doj is awefull for an opponent, or even force.

Things to note about removing with extirpate if timed correctly.

If you loose the mirror you probobly lost because you

-a- got mana screwed
-b- got blown out by bombs "plainswalkers/ doj
-c- got slow rolled by control elements "extirpate, swords, ee."

All of these things are easy ways to lose the mirror.

[klaus]

As a 3c wish still pilot heres how I would do it.

AGAINST:

4c landstill: keep standstills in
3c vindicate still: Keep standstills in
3c wish still: Side them out
2c landstill "basicly mono blue control splash swords and effective white control cards: keep them in.


I'm a fan of semi-witty generalizations, not in this case though:
Every single archetype you mentioned can easily pack 3 DoJ and/or extra action lands (wastelands, Monasteries in the 4c version).
Manlands, Wastelands/Dustbowls and DoJs determine who's to break the Standstill in the mirror.
I'll simply board out all 4 standstills for Mages and get my CA via Jaces (he's the prime spell in the mirror anyway).
-
Also, if you're still packing SB Pates, Factory should be your major target.
DoJs and Elses are usually 1-2offs - not much sense in going for these.

[mossivo1986]

I'm a fan of semi-witty generalizations, not in this case though:
Every single archetype you mentioned can easily pack 3 DoJ and/or extra action lands (wastelands, Monasteries in the 4c version).
Manlands, Wastelands/Dustbowls and DoJs determine who's to break the Standstill in the mirror.

Sure any version of landstill could pack any number of cycle effects/ manlands. The archtype prides itself on being very interchangable. That said it doesn't mean that 4 mishra 4 wasteland 3 doj is the best combination by any means.



I'll simply board out all 4 standstills for Mages and get my CA via Jaces (he's the prime spell in the mirror anyway).-


Your one of the few people who runs jace that wouldn't trade it out for another card choice. Is jace great? Yes. Is Jace the better then fof? maybe. But its all situational. Jace is amazing in the normal landstill vs landstill mirror, but thats saying that your talking about traditional non vindicate non cunning wish builds "which are very out of date." I do understand that there are countertop versions and many individuals also take their own seperate approaches but the numbers are the facts, which are that vindicate still and wish still are the two most saught after models for 3c.


Also, if you're still packing SB Pates, Factory should be your major target.
DoJs and Elses are usually 1-2offs - not much sense in going for these.

Factory really isn't that big of an issue in the matchups ive played. If your siding standstills out for mm then your deffinately going to need to name STP against me because I personally keep swords in, in regards to siding in the mirror. I have come to like MM less lately and I won't be running it unless I see alot of control at chicago. Its simply not worth the risk of loosing more prominant matchups like merfolk/ ichorid "yes I know mage does come in against ichorid normally but so does EP."

[klaus]

Factory really isn't that big of an issue in the matchups ive played. If your siding standstills out for mm then your deffinately going to need to name STP against me because I personally keep swords in, in regards to siding in the mirror. I have come to like MM less lately and I won't be running it unless I see alot of control at chicago. Its simply not worth the risk of loosing more prominant matchups like merfolk/ ichorid "yes I know mage does come in against ichorid normally but so does EP."

Factory is the #1 reason for broken Standstills in the mirror.
If you're not boarding Mages you're even more dependent on Factory dominance, I don't get your logic.

[mossivo1986]

So I ended up posting 4-1-3 drop round nine because I couldn't make day two after my loss in round 8.

r1 TA 2-0 "irrelivent from the source"
r2 R/B gobbos 1-1
r3 UGW thresh 1-0
r4 BGwr Goodstuff aggro 1-1
r5 vile horror 2-0 "isamaru from the source"
r6 urw dreadstill 2-0
r7 4c counter top 1-1
r8 Fae Stompy 0-2
r9 drop



I won all game 1's except for round 8 where 3 judges screwed calls and basicly forced me to logicly play one way, then wish I had played another after judge number three and judge number four came back and warned me that the rule from judge number 1-2 were wrong. I was forced to race with elspeth/ humility and a token in play and dodge repetitive pestermites equiping sword of light and shadow. I lost both games exactly like this. Its a bad matchup and judges didn't help things at all. Neither did my opponent by drawing nothing but creatures with no draw spells off of rediculous odds. Bad beats`:)

I tied:

b/r goblins on a mulli to 5. I lost in overtime on turn four after he resolves 2 ringleaders and a siege gang previously. I couldn't find EP to save my life with top and a fetch in play for two turns.

Second tie was to random BGwr aggro where he played such bombs as:
tarmogoyf, hymn of toroch, duress, thoughtseize, hymn, tombstalker, vindicate, bob, blood moon, and finally gaddock teeg. Needless to say I managed to hold out game 3. I was satisfied for holding off without counterspell.

third tie was to 4c countertop trinket intuition? In overtime I cast ee for 3 cc5 to remove 2 trinket mages which were lethal. He casts force, I cast force, he cast pyroblast, look for blue card to go with force#2 through 2 activations of top via a fetch and find 0 blue cards. He slow rolls me forcing me to win out the rest of my games. I end up playing fae stompy in the following round.


Props:

-Girlfriend gets me 6pack of stella artois after rough trial night.
-My buddy Joe for removing traveling skunk via rocks on the way to the trial. It was a two mile walk.
-Venders for having major foils and wanting my stuff in return. 0$ spent on cards.
-Gabriel Nassif, Patrick Chapin, LSV for signing foil unhinged island, plains, and a brainstorm on friday night "trial"

Maybe since they won I can sell them on ebay for some major cash??? haha
-Playing cop green in my sb. Thanx Dif.

-Ending up in the top 25% even after dropping round 9

Slops:
Activating SDT to decree for four when I didn't need to against 4c_counter_top. It wasn't neccesary, and I got rid of my top by doing so basicly.

Selling most of my trade stock do foil out my landstill deck part of the way. Damn this thing gets expensive!

Starcity for selling a foil foreign dustbowl for 50$. Had it been 25 I would have bought it with cash, but I had no idea they were that expensive.

Different venders for asking my buddy joe to sell him his time vault for under 50$ when he told them that another vendor had offered 130$.

[Wasteland]

To continue the discussion, here my actual Landstill-build. Cunning Wishs have been removed for being too slow...

UWb "Disruptive Lamestill" by Marius Hausmann

//Lands:
4x Tundra
4x Flooded Strand
2x Polluted Delta
1x Underground Sea
1x Scrubland
4x Island
2x Plains
4x Mishra's Factory
1x Dust Bowl

//Spells:
4x Brainstorm
3x Spell Snare
3x Counterspell
4x Force of Will
4x Standstill
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Path to Exile (still testing, but seems they will proove well)
2x Wrath of God
2x Humility
2x Elspeth, Knight Errant
1x Decree of Justice
3x Engineered Explosives
1x Crucible of Worlds
2x Sensei's Divining Top (awesome Card maindeck, cause of drawing as good as a threshhold Deck, just better with an active Crucible :smile: )

//Sideboard:
3x Blue Elemental Blast
3x Counterbalance (better against Combo then single Meddling Mages)
3x Engineered Plague (since merfolk is "deck to beat"^^)
4x Relic of Progenitus
2x Ajani Goldmane

Greetz,
Marius Hausmann

[porcupinetreeman]

I went 6-3-0 at Chicago with this list. It is Konsultant's list with Elspeths. Elspeth and Vindicate were best cards during the Grand Prix.

// Lands
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [TE] Wasteland
2 [A] Island (1)
2 [B] Plains (2)
1 [A] Swamp (1)
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
4 [A] Tundra
1 [B] Underground Sea
1 [B] Scrubland

// Creatures
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant

// Spells
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [IN] Fact or Fiction
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
3 [A] Wrath of God
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [AP] Vindicate
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [A] Counterspell
3 [MM] Brainstorm

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [SHM] Runed Halo
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus

The maindeck was amazing, I wouldn't have changed a single card.
I'm definately going to change the sideboard to this at the next tournament.

-1 Runed Halo
-3 Relic of Progenitus
+1 Meddling Mage
+1 Vindicate
+2 Extirpate/EE/Diabolic Edict

Round 1: ANT 1-2
Round 2: Aggro Loam 2-0
Round 3: Stax 2-0
Round 4: Dreadstill 0-2
Round 5: Goblins 2-1
Round 6: Goblins 0-2
Round 7: Prog Thresh 2-0
Round 8: Dragon Stompy 2-0
Round 9: Goyf Sligh 2-0

[dakkon]

I played UWb Landstill at the GP and ended 8-1 day 1 but failed epically 3-3 day 2, ending in 39th place or so. I can write a detailed report at some point but for now here is the pile I played:

4 Force of Will
2 Negate
2 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
1 Eternal Dragon
1 Sensei’s Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Wrath of God
3 Humility
2 Propaganda
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Decree of Justice
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
1 Ajani Goldmane
1 Stifle*
4 Flooded Strand
2 Tundra
2 Scrubland
4 Mishra’s Factory
4 Island
5 Plains
3 Wasteland

SB
2 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Vindicate
3 Perish
2 Stifle
1 Negate
1 Spell Snare
1 Ajani Goldmane

I decided last minute to add in a 3rd perish in my SB because of all the natural order fanboys (I expected CB thresh to be everywhere); combo elves is also outright scary. This required me to either cut a card from the board or play a 61* card deck. I’m a total scrub and have chosen poorly. The deck is great and is highly malleable depending on the metagame. Here is what I played against:

R1-3: bye (from gpt)
R4 (dragon stompy): 2-0
R5 (ugbw thresh): 2-0
R6 (dragon stompy, guy who t8’d): 2-0
R7 (rg goblins): 0-2
R8 (glimpse elves): 2-0
R9 (affinity): 2-0

R10 (gbr loam): 0-2
R11 (uwb ant): 1-2
R12 (ugr thresh): 2-0
R13 (rg goblins): 2-0
R14 (affinity): 2-1
R15 (goblins): 0-2

I didn’t face the mirror once but I played it 3 times at the gpt piloting a very close list.

I did some incorrect scouting and put my R7 opponent on thresh (not seeing a lot of goblins) and lost handily to t1 lackey g1. g2 I stabilized at too low of life.

I lost my first two matches on day 2 which was a bit disappointing although they were my bad matchups. Against my R10 loam opponent g1 I was almost able to race him because I have his board cleared but I failed to counter either e. witness or s. assault and got burned out. G2 he mulled to five and was land hosed. I wasted and stifled, and spell snared his loam while drawing off standstill and brainstorm and saw zero grave hate the entire game. He eventually resolved loam, played lands, and worm harvest went the distance. This was one of two times my deck crapped out on me; not too bad for 12 rounds of magic so I can’t complain.

I got blown out g3 vs my R11 ant opponent. I mulled into fetch, factory, brainstorm, stifle, standstill, spell snare, hoping to mess with his land and start drawing cards. He plays BASIC ISLAND, petal, rit, rit, AdN and my brainstorm revealed nothing of relevance.

Winning R15 would put me in the top 16 and I knew my opponent was playing goblins. Those of you who witnessed this game should know my pain. G1 I had double propaganda, humility, and top out but I was at 10 life. I then saw nothing but brainstorms, spell snares, fows, land, and standstill from top—my second crap shoot. I had a chance to stabilize g2 but he got hasty sharpshooter out the turn before could drop humilty and wiped my decree tokens and Elspeth in one swoop and I couldn’t recover from there.

Overall I had fun and all my opponents were classy. Hopefully with the large turnout they’ll have these things more often!

[Viscosity]

I played my "Toolkit-still" build in the Dual Land side event. 50+ players, and the event ran until 3am Sunday Morning, so there were lots of player errors on both sides of the table ;)

First game was 1-2 vs dreadstill. I generally have a positive MU, but not this time. 2nd round I went 2-1 (cant recall deck) and the guy dropped.
Then I beat 2 goblin decks (4-0), a belcher deck, and TES. At this point I was in 5th with horrible tie breakers. Last round I lost to team america (need more sword)

Ended up going 5-2. Placing 7th

My $10k card collection was stolen so admittedly, my decklist was a little off. I only owned 3 swords at the time of this event. lawl.

The sideboard and singleton dreadnought were the MVPs. The nought gives first game wins vs ichorid and sligh (generally difficult first game). Vs Burn: Dropping nought, swords in response to trigger, removes a dead swords for 12 life to me (also valuable vs ANT/TES). 30 life is much harder to storm to.

I ran this:

23Land:
4x tundra
4x flooded strand
2x polluted delta
1x underground sea
2x island
2x plains
3x mishra's factory
2x wasteland
1x academy ruins
1x tolaria west
1x city of traitors

2 moxen:
2x mox diamond

35 Spells:
4x force of will
4x standstill
3x stifle
2x counterspell
2x sensei's top
3x brainstorm
3x swords to plowshares
3x engineered explosives
2x trinket mage
1x phyrexian dreadnought
2x Elspeth
1x Fact or Fiction
2x Decree of justice
2x crucible of worlds

SB: THE TOOLKIT
3x enlightened tutor
2x Engineered Plague
1x COP RED
1x Humility
1x energy flux
1x pithing needlle
2x Counterbalance
2x relic of progenitus
1x tormod's crypt
1x Ghostly Prison

At this time, I wouldn't change the sideboard. It rocks. But I would adjust the main to look like this..

24 land:
4x tundra
4x flooded strand
2x polluted delta
2x underground sea
2x island
2x plains
4x mishra's factory
2x wasteland
1x academy ruins
1x tolaria west

2 mox:
2x mox diamond

34 spell:
4x force of will
4x stifle (+1)
2x counterspell
1x sensei's top (-1)
4x brainstorm (+1)
4x standstill
1x Fact or Fiction
1x crucible of worlds (-1)

4x swords to plowshares (+1)
2x Smother (+2)
2x engineered explosives (-1)

2x trinket mage
1x phyrexian dreadnought
1x Elspeth (-1)
1x Decree of justice (-1)

I played imperial painter in the main event, going 2-3 drop. I was scared to play LS due to the amount of ichorid. But in hindsight, wish I had just played what I'm comfortable with (LS). I'm sure it would've done better.

Oh, and if you stole my cards. Die a slow, painful death.... :mad:

[rockout]

Round 1: Jason Aron - Aggro Loam GRb 2-1 Nice guy
Game 1: I win the die roll and he mulls to 6. Turn 2 standstill broken by a confidant which gets swords into another standstill. Drop Elspeth and race his 3/3 terravore.
Game 2: I play non basic before basic and get wasted out of the game with a e. dragon in hand.
Game 3: His t1 is diamond, wasteland, chalice @ 1. turn 2 I ee his board away and proceed to waste lock him a few turns later.

Round 2: Steve Judd - Isamaru - Vial Horror 1-1-0
Game 1: We both open with island pass his turn 2 he takes a 3 minute turn to drop a scrubland go. I roll my finger at him to move it along. Apparently, this made him pissed at me, so he proceeded to play slower. "The man's got douche in his veins!"
Game 2: He double hymms turns 2 and 3 and I go into top deck mode for most of the game. He beats me with 1 turn left in time with a EOT Vial in Hunted Horror.

Round 3: Scott Muir - Mono-red Burn w/ Ensaring Bridge 0-2
Game 1: I lead with double factory beats and try to race. His turns go rift bolt, magma jet my guy, PoP, Chain Lightning, Bridge, Bridge, PoP, Fireblast. I eventually have to swords my dude and attempt an elspeth. He Shrapnel Blasts which is lethal with me at 2, I force and die to Fireblast. He was at 1 and I was at 1. :-(
Game 2: I mull into everything that is awful. He goes lava spike, lava spike, bolt, chain lightning, pop, fireblast. I die turn 4 or 5 without casting a spell. I rip double elspeth and land my first 4 turns.

At this point, I know I have to win out to make it. Eh, fuck it, I usually have to win out to make top 8s so I'm used to the pressure.

Round 4: Andrew Beckett Natural Order Thresh 2-0
Game 1: He doesn't see a force the entire game and I luck sack into force off standstill and cs off standstill twice to stop natural order. I win through no answer to e dragon.
Game 2: He has 5 mana and wall of roots on the board. Plays goyf and noble hierarch instead of playing the natural order I know he has in his hand. The following turn I kill goyf, noble hierarch, wall of roots, and dryad arbor with a perish. I ride elspeth to the win a few turns later.

Round 5: Dustin Buckingham Dreadstill Ugr 2-0 Nice guy
We both know what either person was playing.
Game 1: He has top & cb in play turn 2. I land go. He Dreadnaughts with trick bind. I cast EE @ 1 and he doesn't reveal for cb for some reason. I kill his naught. I had vindicate + swords. I land crucible and start chump a 6/7 goyf @ 7 life with a mishra's factory until I finally draw a vindicate 8 turns later. I win with e dragon at turn 25+.
Game 2: I 3 for 1 cb and double goyf with ee and he scoops to double factory.

Round 6: Eric Hendershott Rock 2-0 Funnest match of the tournament.
Game 1: We trade land destruction spells in the form of wasteland and vindicate on my part and vindicate, sinkhole, and waste land on his part for the first 8 turns. He plays a Urborg which allows me to cast a ee @ 2 to kill a goyf and I stabilize many turns later off a crucible. I luck sack into removal for all his tombstalkers.
Game 2: Lots of LD again from both sides. I cast ajani and get my 16/16 token swords. I win with recurring e. dragon.

Round 7: Jeremy Barbeau 41 Land.dec 1-2 Nice guy Fun match - He made day 2 - First time ever playing this MU :-(
Game 1: I force exploration like a nub and he resolves manabond and drops his hand. I swords his treetop and ee his mana bond and into top deck mode we go. At one point he has 4 maze of iths on the board. I some how cast a crucible through double port and waste lock him 10-12 turns later.
Game 2: I mulligan into hate but lose in savage fashion to double waste and seismic assault with active loam.
Game 3: I play mistake myself out of the tournament by letting my mage die to a tabernacle. I get all my relics killed by ancient grudge. I have no permanents and rip wasteland off the top and allow him to pick the land I waste. Also, he EOT ports my fetch land and then wastes it the following turn. I wish I took a picture, it was awesome.

I was out at this point, but decided to push forward.

Round 8: Pierre-Olivi (name truncated by WotC) Bastien-Dionne - Rock 0-2 Nice guy from Quebec, Canada
Game 1: We trade lots of answers and vindicates. I realize later on I lost this due to mis-management of resources, namely vindicates/wasteland. I should have saved a waste for volrath's stronghold. He starts to recur witness for his treetops and goyfs. I can't find crucible in time.
Game 2: I just gave up.
I told him after the match I appreciated the speed at which he played because his turn, literally, took less than 30 seconds, didn't matter what he was doing. He responded with, "It's a sign of respect." I really appreciated this match and my opponent.

Round 9: Deryck Rothenberger - Elf storm - 2-0 - He sat next to me the round before and he played "the rules nazi." "The rules nazi" wanted to know each time Deryck stacked essence warden and each time it resolved by a vocal reminder. Glad I didn't play that dude.
Game 1: I drop ee @ 1 and three for 1 him turn 3. I counter two glimpse.
Game 2: He starts with leyline of lifeforce in his opening hand. And proceeds to draw triple leyline of the lifeforce the following 3 turns. I set ee @ 1 with perish and e plague in my hand.

All in all, 5-3-1. I punted the 41 land.dec match, but o well. I need to rework my side board and give up on the burn match up because it's basically auto lose. I'm happy I made a good run and stayed in contention up until round 7. My deck was extremely consistent and resilient throughout the day against all kinds of match-ups.

Deck list

// Lands
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [UNH] Plains
2 [UNH] Island
1 [UNH] Swamp
3 [B] Tundra
2 [B] Underground Sea
1 [B] Scrubland
3 [JGC] Mishra's Factory
3 [REW] Wasteland
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins

// Creatures
1 [PR] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
3 [JGC] Counterspell
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [OD] Standstill
3 [AP] Vindicate
2 [SC] Decree of Justice - I only ever want to see it past turn 6.
2 [ALA] Elspeth Knight-Errant
2 [IN] Fact or Fiction
2 [REW] Wrath of God - Finally proving it's worth
1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds - MVP without question

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [FNM] Engineered Plague Amazing with all the tribal going around.
SB: 3 [JGC] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [SHM] Runed Halo - Fucking god awful
SB: 2 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
SB: 2 [TE] Perish - Great "Meta" Amazing
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus

Slops:
FOFing into double FOF when my deck registration said I had 2 fofs. hmmmm
Isamaru being Isamaru
32 cab ride from O'Hare to Schaumburg, about 10 miles.
No orange juice saturday morning.
Not getting a chance to hook up with a chick I was suppose to meet up with because it would have been 100 dollar taxi ride round trip to down town chicago and back.
Scrubbing
Calling Ben names when he was sitting right behind me
Losing to the Rock
Punting Games
Pat stepping in a puddle that was probably a good foot deep
Louis and DJ for saying they were going to go at one point and not going

Props:
Big Bowl - Thai Restaurant for their ginger ale (tasted like ginger spiced seltzer mmm)
Seeing watchmen sunday night
Going to time once playing landstill for 9 rounds
Geoff for almost getting there
Getting Chinese, Japanese Standstill for 4 and 6 bucks.
Team Awesome for living the dream.
Gabriel Nassif for being my favorite pro player and winning the GP

[TeKo]

@mossivo1986: Can you post your list?

[mossivo1986]

@mossivo1986: Can you post your list?


4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [R] Tundra
1 [R] Underground Sea
1 [R] Scrubland
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
3 [UNH] Plains
3 [UNH] Island
3 [JGC] Mishra's Factory

// Creatures
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant

// Spells
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
1 [LRW] Ponder
3 [OD] Standstill
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
1 [IN] Fact or Fiction
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [10E] Wrath of God
1 [TE] Humility
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares
2 [CHK] Sensei's devining top

SB:
1 pulse of the fields
1 extirpate
1 enlightened tutor
1 return to dust
1 path to exile
1 hydroblast
1 blue elemental blast
1 circle of protection: green
1 runed halo
1 relic of progenitus
3 Engineered plague
2 ajani goldmane


full tourney rep.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13076 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13076)

[konsultant]

Hey here is the list I ended up running at the GP. I ended at 11-4 having 2 byes from my rating. I only had one loss where my deck failed me and drew practically no land. My other losses were to good players running good decks. I lost to Dreadstill (No land round sadly), Landstill Mirror (sort of but without Standstills not sure but moat kicked my ass, on a losing streak in the mirror lately), Affinity who drew the nuts and the Dragon Stompy guy who made top 4 (props for running Boil it kicked my ass and I didn't see it coming).

4x STP
3x Wrath of God
3x Decree of Justice
2x Eternal Dragon

3X Engineered Explosive's

3X Vindicate

3x Spellsnare
3x Counterspell
4x Force of Will
3x Brainstorm
4x Standstill
2x Fact or Fiction

Same land base as usual

SB
1x Counterspell
1x Wrath of God
1x Elspeth
1x Decree of Justice
4x Engineered Plague
4x Planar Void
3x Orim's Chant

Unfortunatly I don't have more time at the moment but i'll try to get a tournament report up in the near future.

[rockout]

Wow, what an interesting sideboard. You should tell everyone the story of how you beat mono-red burn. Congrats on the finish, when I heard you made day 2 I figured, "sweet, glad at least one landstill player will top 8."

I saw your affinity match from day 2 and the guy luck sacked game 1 drawing nothing but threats with a plating on the board.

[mossivo1986]

Hey here is the list I ended up running at the GP. I ended at 11-4 having 2 byes from my rating. I only had one loss where my deck failed me and drew practically no land. My other losses were to good players running good decks. I lost to Dreadstill (No land round sadly), Landstill Mirror (sort of but without Standstills not sure but moat kicked my ass, on a losing streak in the mirror lately), Affinity who drew the nuts and the Dragon Stompy guy who made top 4 (props for running Boil it kicked my ass and I didn't see it coming).

4x STP
3x Wrath of God
3x Decree of Justice
2x Eternal Dragon

3X Engineered Explosive's

3X Vindicate

3x Spellsnare
3x Counterspell
4x Force of Will
3x Brainstorm
4x Standstill
2x Fact or Fiction

Same land base as usual

SB
1x Counterspell
1x Wrath of God
1x Elspeth
1x Decree of Justice
4x Engineered Plague
4x Planar Void
3x Orim's Chant

Unfortunatly I don't have more time at the moment but i'll try to get a tournament report up in the near future.

I love this list I just hate the dragons and the third decree. I also do not like the approach you take with your sb, but lord knows as you told me in the pm you prefer redundancy above utility. Its funny I do actually like chant in this model, and I really think your going overboard with 4 plague 4void but thats just me speaking. Interesting build and I look forward to testing it.

[NQN]

I can not understand people not running Elspeth Maindeck. Since I once played her, I will never ever cut her again. Since I have Elspeth I rarely lose to time and it just wins sooo many games on its own. But since you are the godfather and such I´d like to her an explanation.

[Viscosity]

^ I agree. Elspeth is great. I like to run 2 elspeth. I can't understand not running at least one, and I especially dont understand decklists running 0 els and eternal dragon?! That card is completely dated. It often plays as a plainscycle and is never seen again for the duration of the game. If you do invest the mana to return it, it is way easier to remove than elspeth anyway. I'd run a 3rd decree over 1 dragon also.

In an environment with more evagreen and team america, I cut an elspeth and a decree in favor of 2x smother. Getting the mana for els or dec is difficult in those match ups. And spot removal wins those games. But the deck becomes substantially weaker to stax with those changes.

[Tinefol]

Smother? Why not Diabolic Edict/Path to Exile?

[rsaunder]

^ I agree. Elspeth is great. I like to run 2 elspeth. I can't understand not running at least one, and I especially dont understand decklists running 0 els and eternal dragon?! That card is completely dated. It often plays as a plainscycle and is never seen again for the duration of the game. If you do invest the mana to return it, it is way easier to remove than elspeth anyway. I'd run a 3rd decree over 1 dragon also.

In an environment with more evagreen and team america, I cut an elspeth and a decree in favor of 2x smother. Getting the mana for els or dec is difficult in those match ups. And spot removal wins those games. But the deck becomes substantially weaker to stax with those changes.

Eternal dragon and Els are cards serving two completely different functions. Dragons are mana sources primarily. Cutting one for the other would completely throw the deck off.

[Shawn]

Eternal dragon and Els are cards serving two completely different functions. Dragons are mana sources primarily. Cutting one for the other would completely throw the deck off.

QFT. I run 23 lands and two dragons and I want to squeeze in another mana source. I don't get how some people's lists can stand up to mana disruption from decks like tempo thresh or team america, and even Wastelands+Ports from goblins. Some play Tops or Ponders to make up for the lack of Dragons, but even when my mana isn't attacked I've wanted more, so I could use my Wastelands and attack with Factories more liberally while still being able to cast other spells, such as EE, FoF, etc.

[Tinefol]

What I've found from my playtesting is that deck surprisingly had more mana problems than more heavier 4c lists, because it runs wasteland and utility lands. 23 is not enough if you run wastelands, 25 is probably the right number (with two dragons).

[Shriekmaw]

I can not understand people not running Elspeth Maindeck. Since I once played her, I will never ever cut her again. Since I have Elspeth I lose to time and it just wins sooo many games on its own. But since you are the godfather and such I´d like to her an explanation.


I think Elspeth is a win more card in landstill and does not need to be main decked. I can understand running a copy in the board for certain matchups, but not in the main deck.

There is not one person I know that playtests as much as Geoff. If he doesn't have a card in his list then there is probably a very good reason for it. If everyone put as much time into landstill as Geoff then we would see landstill winning a lot more tournaments.

[rsaunder]

I, too really want to fit in land#24. Not sure what to cut though, or what to add. I really want to fit in mishra's #4.

I also agree on Els being win more. I started out with 2 copies, then cut one. I was in the process of moving the last one to the board when I saw Geoff's list. I think part of the problem with her is that she's win more in a lot of situations, but my big problem with her is that she's a 4cc sorcery for all casting purposes. Landstill doesnt like to tap out on its own turn; WOG, vindicate, and the other sorceries are a necessary evil and ought to be kept to a minimum.

[rockout]

Elspeth comes down turn 4 and can race almost anything in the format. After that, all you have to do is pump your dude and keep mana open for counters. It doesn't die to powder keg, ee @ 0, and deed. It also allows for a hilarious face when someone blows deed and kills their entire board to try and kill elspeth and fails. Decree takes way too long to become a reasonable win condition and when I see it early on it just pisses me off. I'd love to see decree as the first card when I see my 13th mana. I will never cut decree or elspeth.

How is Elspeth win more? You technically aren't going to win the game on turn 4. Elspeth just enables the deck to push the game futher into the late game with reusable blockers kind of like humility used to for many of us. Decree makes a 1/1 turn 4 and cantrips, Elspeth makes a dude per turn and swings for 4 in the air the following turn and into infinity. Blocks a single goyf until your opponent gets annoyed and jumps across the table to smack you.

Tapping out to play your win condition doesn't sound awful to me. I tap out to play eternal dragon/decree fairly often.

The first tournament Elspeth was legal, I was running two and got laughed at all day. When I smashed for 4 a turn, I was the one laughing at them.

[Benie Bederios]

It's a whole different story if you are playing with or Humility or not. I play the Wish-build with 24 lands, Humility and as winconditions 4 Factories, 1 Dragon, 1 Elspeth, 2 Decree and. There is Elspeth insane, with an Humility out it's a win from the spot. I tried Konsutant's list with Elspeth( 1 Elspeth) but I liked Eternal Dragon in that list more.

BB

[Tinefol]

Problems start when they have more than a single goyf there. Or have burn. Most aggro and aggro-control decks either have burn, or a bunch of creatures. You tap out, they do whatever tricks they want.

[Wargoos]

Problems start when they have more than a single goyf there. Or have burn. Most aggro and aggro-control decks either have burn, or a bunch of creatures. You tap out, they do whatever tricks they want.
Well, I played a game on a bigger tourney against an opp with about 1830 playing Goyfsligh.
First Game I won due to vindicating his lonely Taiga and then dropping a Standstill.

Second Game Elspeth won me the game. Just like that.
He tried to burn her instead of me (which is pretty good, since they dont have library manipulation and won't have much burn for yourself left) but failed since i had one BEB.
Elspeth made me a token and rushed for his face 4 times, focusing his burn spells on her but not being able to get rid of her. Dude, she's even better than Ajani here, serving same purposes AND being the faster clock.
So, obviously she works.
And i goddamn love to see though guys beaten up by my lil' female planeswalker.

[rockout]

Problems start when they have more than a single goyf there. Or have burn. Most aggro and aggro-control decks either have burn, or a bunch of creatures. You tap out, they do whatever tricks they want.

If I'm tapping out for Elspeth, I'm baiting a 3 or 2 for 1 with a EE or a wrath of god. If you drop Elspeth and they drop more dudes to try and swing through the single token a turn, it makes your sweep effects that much better. Similar to Humility, but doesn't produce a 1/1 a turn.

[NQN]

I actually play 23 lands, 2 tops, zero Dragons and my mana works pretty well. The current record of the "new" list is 11-2-3 with 3 ID´s. When those perky tempodecks came out everywhere I cutted Decree and Wrath and added moar spotremoval and Elspeth (obv)(Well, Klaus did it, not me :>).
Elspeth is the_best_card_in_the_deck. It improves every matchup other than combo and even there it´s way faster than the other wincons.
And it´s so fuckin hard to remove when it once hit the table. If I think back I can only think of one game where she died and that was against sligh (3 for 1 trade which sounds fair to me). With ten spotremoval and three explosives she will likely never die.

EDIT: Whoever played those Vendlions some pages ago: Where they at least worth their slots? I´d like to play some myself but at first I wanted to hear some field reports ;)

[rsaunder]

Elspeth made me a token and rushed for his face 4 times, focusing his burn spells on her but not being able to get rid of her. Dude, she's even better than Ajani here, serving same purposes AND being the faster clock.
So, obviously she works.
And i goddamn love to see though guys beaten up by my lil' female planeswalker.He misplayed. It sounds like if he had been shooting your face he would have won.

[Wargoos]

Well, i didn't actually get to know his hand, but i can say that i don't think of him making bigger mistakes since he is a pretty experienced player with a high rating.
I would say his hand wasn't optimal and the Elspeth clock to fast/ to get rid off due to my counterspell backup.
I believe without her, it wouldn't have been that easy.

[Viscosity]

Eternal dragon and Els are cards serving two completely different functions. Dragons are mana sources primarily. Cutting one for the other would completely throw the deck off.

Yeah but removing a dragon can only make the deck better. :wink:

[rockout]

Yeah but removing a dragon can only make the deck better. :wink:

I disagree. It shuffles, fetches a colored source, helps find that 3rd or 4th land, and can serve as a recurring beater later on in the game. If you were being sarcastic, my apologies.

[3duece]

I think he was kidding.

[rockout]

^ I agree. Elspeth is great. I like to run 2 elspeth. I can't understand not running at least one, and I especially dont understand decklists running 0 els and eternal dragon?! That card is completely dated. It often plays as a plainscycle and is never seen again for the duration of the game. If you do invest the mana to return it, it is way easier to remove than elspeth anyway. I'd run a 3rd decree over 1 dragon also.

In an environment with more evagreen and team america, I cut an elspeth and a decree in favor of 2x smother. Getting the mana for els or dec is difficult in those match ups. And spot removal wins those games. But the deck becomes substantially weaker to stax with those changes.

I thought so too until I re-read this post.

[Ectoplasm]

The dragon also helps long, drawn-out control-matches by removing (almost) all of your land, ensuring superior draws. That's pretty tech.

[3duece]

I thought so too until I re-read this post.

So then can we all agree that, while viscosity is likely a very nice and intelligent person, he's absolutely awful with this deck?

Dragon is a major component of the consistency of 3c landstill. It's one of the reasons 3c is favored in an unknown meta over 4c for right now, it runs more basics and more ways to get them letting you do mean shit like wrath and swords through a moon effect. Dragon, decree and elspeth are all the shit and should all probably be somewhere in the 75.

[rockout]

So then can we all agree that, while viscosity is likely a very nice and intelligent person, he's absolutely awful with this deck?

Dragon is a major component of the consistency of 3c landstill. It's one of the reasons 3c is favored in an unknown meta over 4c for right now, it runs more basics and more ways to get them letting you do mean shit like wrath and swords through a moon effect. Dragon, decree and elspeth are all the shit and should all probably be somewhere in the 75.

I couldn't agree more. Just being able to grab a basic plains under a moon effect makes E. Dragon worth the 1-2 slots.

[Viscosity]

So then can we all agree that, while viscosity is likely a very nice and intelligent person, he's absolutely awful with this deck?

Dragon is a major component of the consistency of 3c landstill. It's one of the reasons 3c is favored in an unknown meta over 4c for right now, it runs more basics and more ways to get them letting you do mean shit like wrath and swords through a moon effect. Dragon, decree and elspeth are all the shit and should all probably be somewhere in the 75.

Why not anticipate the moon, fetch basics, and play an interactive game? Moon has never been a problem for me unless I walk into it blindly (player error).

i wasn't joking.

Under the immense amount of playtesting I've done, dragon is often a one cycle effect, and no more. Waste of a card IMO. As a win-con, he isn't good. Too much STP around to make a 7 mana 5/5 flyer worth casting. I'd rather cast a hard decree for two angels for one mana more.

I play 2 crucible; utilizing fetchlands to thin the deck in the long game. Also making wasteland lock common.

I also wouldn't run a LS deck without stifle. I also use mox diamond and city of traitors, what?!

It's obvious that I have a less common approach to this deck (or at least when compared to the other vocal members of this board), but it has been very successful. Legacy rating is around 1800+ right now with dozens of event top 8s and wins. Including a 7th place at the GP 55 person side event; and that was with horrible tie-breakers and a couple player errors.

EDIT: I have ONE reason i sometimes run a singleton dragon; MWS doesn't load plainswalkers without a creature in the deck. lawl.

speaking of that, I'd be more than happy to playtest on MWS with anyone who would like to.

[3duece]

So you're saying you are spending 3 turns cycling and returning it to your hand to get basics under a moon? And what is your opponent doing while you are playing solitare? Why not anticipate the moon, fetch basics, and play an interactive game? Moon has never been a problem for me unless I walk into it blindly (player error).

i wasn't joking.

Under the immense amount of playtesting I've done, dragon is often a one cycle effect, and no more. Waste of a card IMO. As a win-con, he isn't good. Too much STP around to make a 7 mana 5/5 flyer worth casting. I'd rather cast a hard decree for two angels for one mana more.

I play 2 crucible; utilizing fetchlands to thin the deck in the long game. Also making wasteland lock common.

I also wouldn't run a LS deck without stifle. I also use mox diamond and city of traitors, what?!

It's obvious that I have a less common approach to this deck (or at least when compared to the other vocal members of this board), but it has been very successful. Legacy rating is around 1800+ right now with dozens of event top 8s and wins. Including a 7th place at the GP 55 person side event; and that was with horrible tie-breakers and a couple player errors.

While I completely disagree with your approach to the deck, I apologize for the antagonistic comment. I suppose our testing has yielded different results. Maybe your metagame is different to mine? I can't imagine trying to resolve a crucible early enough to make city of traitors or mox diamond at all worthwhile. But, hey, fair enough I guess.

[Omega]

Dragon comes in handy in the late game.

Someone said opponent have STP

So what? They probably wasted their STP on your Manlands, or else you would be winning the game already.
And if they STP it, well that's one less STP for your manland.

To not forget that Eternal dragon is USUALLY just a cycle. You can win most of your game without recurring him. But being able to get that land (EOT turn 2 or later, when your opponent does nothing) is a great advantage. To not forget that E Dragon also shuffle your library

Robert

[ebbitten]

Hi I have been reading this thread for a while and I've been trying to adopt speedstill's approach to the magic-league metagame. Some of the problems that i had been encountering were a lack of blue cards to pitch to FoW and a few problems in the Threshold matchups (UGw). The metagame is fairly diverse because of the ease of acquiring cards on magicworkstation but there do seem to be some definite trends that I have noticed in the recent minis. Theres generally one straight up aggro deck, occasionly a gobos deck, usually some sort of midgame nonblue control (survival or the rock), sometimes Combo, usually some deck featuring a good amount of discard, and always a couple threshold decks.

With this in mind I tried to create a UWg landstill that could handle this meta and have a very good matchup against countertop thresh. This is what I drafted.
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [5E] Forest (4)
2 [10E] Island (4)
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
1 [IA] Plains (3)
1 [A] Savannah
2 [R] Tropical Island
4 [B] Tundra
3 [ON] Windswept Heath

// Creatures
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon
2 [LRW] Jace Beleren

// Spells
4 [IA] Brainstorm
2 [7E] Counterspell
1 [SC] Decree of Justice
2 [ALA] Elspeth Knight-Errant
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [TE] Humility
2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
2 [CFX] Path to Exile
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [A] Swords to Plowshares
1 [10E] Wrath of God

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [4E] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [SC] Wing Shards


There aren't any E dragons and there aren't very many DoJs because usually by the late game I don't for very much. I plan on boarding out the Humilities after game one against thresh because pretty much all of the lists have k-grips. Any advice?

@ Tinefol Nantuko Monastery has always felt too conditional and mana intensive, and I tend to have terrible luck with mana screw, also the point of this build was to have a good game against countertop thresh, which K-Grip tends to help out.

EDIT: Also what do you guys think of going for the SB -4 BEB +4 tarmo, I feel like they would come in the same matchups and tarmo could be better

[Tinefol]

You're playing UWg and are not running Nantuko Monastery? Also, I don't think Krosan Grip deserves a maindeck spot.

[konsultant]

I can not understand people not running Elspeth Maindeck. Since I once played her, I will never ever cut her again. Since I have Elspeth I rarely lose to time and it just wins sooo many games on its own. But since you are the godfather and such I´d like to her an explanation.

Godfather is a new one, here is my perspective on Elspeth and Eternal Dragon and Decree of Justice.

Eternal Dragon is the 24th and 25th lands in the deck, situationally the card can be absolutly amazing. For example in the control mirror it can let you cycle like a madman and get you card advantage that isn't stoppable through countermagic. Against decks like Survival that have a hard time dealing with a deck that runs a ton of removal and 5/5 flyers that reccur. The majority of the time Dragon just gets a basic Plains (even under Bloodmoon) and sits in the yard.

Decree is the backbone of winning the game for Landstill, it isn't counterable other than Stifle, it replaces itself, it grows stronger the later the game goes and it is used at instant speed. Seriously what more do you really want out of a wincon? On top of all that you have the versatility of making Angels witch crushes most any deck without lategame strategies. If that wasn't enough the card isn't even affected by targeting removal. Let's not forget to tack on that it works under Standstill whitch is the draw engine we plan on using to win the game. Hands down this card should be in Landstill and if you are running into issues with draws while playing this deck add more Decree's into the MD. In 13 rounds at the GP I went to time once and it was because I was stubborn and refused to scoop to Moat.

Elspeth is interesting, yes it is a solid win condition and it has perfect synergy with all of Landstills removal strategies. So do all of the Plainswalkers, due to the existence of Krosan Grip Plainswalkers are the only non land permanent that we can play that is protectable. All of the Plainswalkers are worth testing. They do not have good synergy with Standstill nor can they be played at instant speed, they can be countered. They are inherantly versatile but you are still limited in what they can due. This is what I have found in my ridiculous hours of testing, if you are winning the game (the board is clear) casting nearly any Plainswalker will win the game for Landstill if it stays in play. If you are losing the game they tend to be subpar when compared to Decree. Yes Elspeth deals with a Goose or Goyf that is attacking every turn but you have a ton of other ways to deal with those cards and in all of the situations where dropping down a Plainswalker is good a Decree would also be good. Situationally the Plainswalker is better than Decree but I don't find myself in those situations very often.

I ran one Elspeth in my SB but I also ran the 4th Decree, if I could run 5x Decree i'd cut Elspeth and do so but that isn't an option. As it was in 13 intense rounds of Magic at one of the largest legacy tournaments ever against some of the best players the game has to offer Elspeth won me zero games and Decree won me 22. It's as simple as that. Yes I could be running more Elspeths but I have never ever looked at Decree in hand and said wow I wish this was Elspeth.

Elspeth is a fine card and if you play against decks running Extirpate frequently it is probably worth playing in the MD. In my experience I have never had the need to add Elspeth into the MD and so for me and the list I run that puts the card into the win more category. That is only my opinion and only in perspective to the list I run. I had found Ajani to be subpar now that it has become more popular and decided to switch it for the 4th Decree and the one Elspeth in my SB.



I put the 4x Planar Voids in the SB to actually give me a shot at beating Ichorid, it did well in testing but I was lucky and never ran into it at the GP.


The burn match up of round nine was one for the recoed books, I lost game one to standing next to the sign where the previous 8 rounds pairings had gone up and being late to my seat. I won game one at 1 life having drawn damn near every counterspell in my deck and riding a Dragon in for a quick win. Game 3 I thought I was done for, I mulled to a 5 card hand of EE, Wrath (the only one left in the deck), Counterspell, Waste and Mishra's Factory. I won game 3 at 1 life as well surviving an uncounterable Lighting Bolt when I was at 2 and an uncountered Magma Jet when I was at 2 again. Let me just point out I cut Ajani from the SB for this event. Karma is a mother fucker and if this guy hadn't called the Judge and got me a game loss for being literally 30 seconds late to my seat I may not have ripped every card I needed off the top for 2 games straight. Lesson of the day, don't be a dick.