[Deck] UW(x) Landstill

[Viscosity]

Tonight's Tournament Report: - 15 man 4-Round Swiss

Round 1: 2-1 vs White Geddon Stax (this player won one of the GP trials)
Round 2: 2-0 Enchantress (solitary confinement build)
Round 3: 2-1 Thresh (BGw w/ mystic enforcer)
Round 4: 2-0 Vial Goblins (1900+ player, RW with MD swords)

4-0 - First Place. :eek:

2 mox, 1 city, 2 crucible, 4 stifle, 2 els, 1 jace, 4 sword, 2 ee, 2 trinket mage, 1 dreadnought, 1 top, 3 brainstorm.

??????

[mossivo1986]

Tonight's Tournament Report: - 15 man 4-Round Swiss

Round 1: 2-1 vs White Geddon Stax (this player won one of the GP trials)
Round 2: 2-0 Enchantress (solitary confinement build)
Round 3: 2-1 Thresh (BGw w/ mystic enforcer)
Round 4: 2-0 Vial Goblins (1900+ player, RW with MD swords)

4-0 - First Place. :eek:

2 mox, 1 city, 2 crucible, 4 stifle, 2 els, 1 jace, 4 sword, 2 ee, 2 trinket mage, 1 dreadnought, 1 top, 3 brainstorm.

??????

Whats with the question marks?

[rockout]

2 mox, 1 city

I think I just threw up a little. Post your list.

[Reagens]

I won't post a big introduction.
Suffice to say that I took up the deck a month ago and I have been an avid reader of this discussion and am interested to learn more.
I took it to 1 tournament (40-50 players) and managed top 8 loosing to a black-green recurring nightmare/eternal witness/cabal therapy deck.

Since then I have playtested further and came up with the following deck.
Konsultant's list:

- 3 Wrath of God
- 1 Eternal dragon

+ 2 humility
+ 1 elspeth
+ 1 ajani

Allow me to explain.

Wrath of God: I don't like it MD. For too many an occasion it's just a 1 for 1. This is very much a metagame call of my part and I intend to keep at least 2 in my sideboard. It would take the place of humility more often then not post board. On other occasions it was useless because my opponent was playing manlands as well

Eternal dragon: instinctively my weakest choice. But I can't find an alternative to cut. I am already at 3 brainstorm which I don't like that much. My first idea was to cut 1 DoJ but I was very mistaken in this card. Although last time I tested my manabase was left untouched, so this may have warped my results.

Humility: Too good not to have first game. Cuts of CiP effects, which I feel I need. I would board it out most of the time (avoiding krosan grip and the like), but would probably side it back in 3rd game.

Elspeth: I started out with 2 but reconsidered. Your opponent puts a lot of effort in putting this guy to rest (which is nice) but quite often they actually manage that as well (which is less nice). From time to time I end up with 2 in my hand which puts me over the edge of playing just one.

Ajani: Everybody more or less agrees putting this little fella in the sideboard. But I feel it has main board potential. The +1/+1 counter is just crazy with humility back-up (not even mentioning vigilance fot the turn). It has great synergy with humility/manlands/decree tokens earning it a testing session (and maybe tournament) in the main board.


For sideboard I am for the moment considering:

4 meddling mage
4 engineered plague
3 planar void
1 elspeth
1 ajani
2 wrath of god

Elspeth is a debatable slot I guess. But sometimes I feel like I need 2. Planar void should be a 4-off but I am unsure what to cut.

Meddling mage for all it's obvious power is the most difficult card for me. I would very much like to learn more about boarding strategies in general but for this specific card especially.


For reference my metagame is quite diverse but consists of the following elements:

1) black or black/green disruption.
2) combo (as a combo player myself I am quite good at boarding for these match-ups)
3) tribal (elves, combo-elves, merfolk, goblins).
4) loam
5) ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh variants (although not very present I feel I am very weak in my sideboarding choices for this match-up).


Any help on this would be very much appreciated.

As an extra one more question. I played an UGR-ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh variant recently. It has only 8 threats (goyf and mongoose) and an assortment of burn/stifle/wasteland to disrupt my manabase and control my creaturebase.
Tips pre-board would be very much appreciated. But the real question is post-board. Since they are boarding in red blasts I feel that I cannot out-counter them. My counterspells get spell-snared, Daze is a pain and red blast makes FoW become discard. Would it be viable to just board out my counters and just try to gain card advantage through cycling and the like while trading spells 1 for 1 until I gain the upper hand?

[Patrick]

^ I agree. Elspeth is great. I like to run 2 elspeth. I can't understand not running at least one, and I especially dont understand decklists running 0 els and eternal dragon?! That card is completely dated. It often plays as a plainscycle and is never seen again for the duration of the game. If you do invest the mana to return it, it is way easier to remove than elspeth anyway. I'd run a 3rd decree over 1 dragon also.

In an environment with more evagreen and team america, I cut an elspeth and a decree in favor of 2x smother. Getting the mana for els or dec is difficult in those match ups. And spot removal wins those games. But the deck becomes substantially weaker to stax with those changes.

Considering Landstill is a popular deck, picture this. You're playing the mirror match. This matchup is based around who can have more resources. This involves getting as many lands into play as you can, and having more cards in your hand. This makes Eternal Dragon, Decree of Justice and Fact or Fiction the best cards in the match. None of these cards can be countered if you're playing them right and they all cause incremental card advantage. When you have more lands than your opponent does, you can tap out for a Decree at their EoT, then untap and attack. Even if they block all your guys you still have some getting through for damage and either drawing out a Wrath from them or keeping yourself ahead for the next Decree. Same reason Elspeth is good: the match is won with 1/1 soldiers. She makes a lot of soldiers, then makes them indestructible.

[Elf_Ascetic]

+ 2 humility
+ 1 elspeth
+ 1 ajani

Eternal dragon: instinctively my weakest choice. But I can't find an alternative to cut. I am already at 3 brainstorm which I don't like that much. My first idea was to cut 1 DoJ but I was very mistaken in this card. Although last time I tested my manabase was left untouched, so this may have warped my results.

Elspeth: I started out with 2 but reconsidered. Your opponent puts a lot of effort in putting this guy to rest (which is nice) but quite often they actually manage that as well (which is less nice). From time to time I end up with 2 in my hand which puts me over the edge of playing just one.

Ajani: Everybody more or less agrees putting this little fella in the sideboard. But I feel it has main board potential. The +1/+1 counter is just crazy with humility back-up (not even mentioning vigilance fot the turn). It has great synergy with humility/manlands/decree tokens earning it a testing session (and maybe tournament) in the main board.


Ok, for starters: Brainstorm is the best card in the whole format. Yes, really. No, don't go to three unless you're absolutely certain that last card gives you more wins.

About a second Else. Your reasoning (getting two Elses in your hand) is debatable. Most of the time I have an Else out, I win. If they kill it, I have a second. It's comparable with Counterbalance: if you got it, you win, if they kill it, you have another one! And if you really don't need Else, just shuffle it away with Brainstorm. (Play 4!)

Ajani isn't mainboardmaterial because there are much better cards. Unless you have MB MMages or something, most of the time it's +1/+1 counters don't really matter. It's lifegain doen't really matter against a lot of decks. Elspeth is just better, for the same cost.

I really dislike the 3 decrees and 2 dragons in K's list.

[rsaunder]

@Elf_ascetic: I was skeptical about the 3 brainstorm as well when it was first proposed, but Konsultant did sum it up nicely: brainstorm doesn't serve the same purpose in this deck that it does in many others. It doesnt fix mana on the first turn, it's a mid-game draw spell that you couple with a shuffle effect to generate massive card quality advantage. When it's playing this role, 3 brainstorm is plenty. I'd run FOF#3 right now if I wanted another draw spell over brainstorm #4.

Concerning SB choices, I've still been running the 3x Mage 3x Halo package for combo hate. Perhaps it's my expected environment (having to deal with Bryant's mad combo skyllz), but I wouldn't pack any less than 6 cards against combo. Especially when runed halo is so effective in other matchups as well.

What are everyone else's thoughts on this? Do you guys prefer to play a reactive game with orim's chant?

[3 mage
3 halo
3 extirpate
2 ajani
4 plague]

[Elf_Ascetic]

Last tournament I played a board with 4 MMage, 3 Tidehollow Scullers and 2 Ajani's. Really liked it, I've beaten Solidarity in a game starting with 5 minutes on the clock. :) Scullers are an alternative to Halo, but I have to admid I didn't test the Enchantment yet.

[klaus]

@Elf_ascetic: I was skeptical about the 3 brainstorm as well when it was first proposed, but Konsultant did sum it up nicely: brainstorm doesn't serve the same purpose in this deck that it does in many others. It doesnt fix mana on the first turn, it's a mid-game draw spell that you couple with a shuffle effect to generate massive card quality advantage. When it's playing this role, 3 brainstorm is plenty. I'd run FOF#3 right now if I wanted another draw spell over brainstorm #4.


I have to disagree with you here: Brainstorm is the best draw spell in Legacy, and I'd go as far as claiming "regardless of the resp. archetype, as long as the deck provides 5+ fetches". What you say about BS being awesome in the mid-game when paired with a fetch land is true but stating it's not a mana fixer in the early game boarders on blasphemy..
Compared to decks packing Ponder (aka. BS 5-8) BS becomes even more crucial as a mana fixer (regardless of the overall land count, LS needs more land online than those ponder.decs anyway).
The ideal LS starting 7 consist of 3 land 4 other rather low-costed cards [allowing you to comfortably reach the mid-game]. Well, more often than not we end up with 2-land-hands, praying for good topdecks. Quite frequently Brainstorm functions as earlygame land drop #3 and consequently as land 24-27/25-28, which is fantastic.
-
Many U-control players misplay BS as an early-game manafixer, though.
Say they made their 2nd land drop (no fetchies among them), having no more land in hand but a BS - I'd say 90% would go BS @ the end of their opp's turn, regardless of what else they're holding. I won't go in depth here because it's not the appropriate post for this, but playing that BS in turn let's you see one more card and thus increases the chance of making that vital 3rd land drop quite a bit.
-
Being able to shuffle those Decrees and Elses and Wraths etc away between turn 2-4 is slick tech, too.

Anyway, I'd run 7 if I could.

[mossivo1986]

For the longest time I ran 4 brainstorm 3 Ponder, but eventually when the format slowed down I changed over and ran 4 brainstorm 1 ponder 2 sensei's devining top. As i'm only running four fetch the extra shuffle really does come in handy when I need it. also its clearly not dead with a top in play where as brainstorm is. The really sad part is I want to run a second fof for consistency reasons but I just cant seam to replace the ponder for an fof.

[rockout]

I've run 3 FoFs 3 BS in 2 tournaments now and I top 8ed the first one and went 1-4 in the second one. It just seems like it doesn't matter if you run 3 or 4 BS, what matters is how the rest of your build is set up. If you can hit your land drops you shouldn't lose to anything.

[klaus]

I've run 3 FoFs 3 BS in 2 tournaments now and I top 8ed the first one and went 1-4 in the second one.It just seems like it doesn't matter if you run 3 or 4 BS
Running 3 instead of 4 copies of a card (or vice versa) may not make THE difference regarding those 2 tournament results - there's a large number of aspects involved, afterall. In the end it's all about logic, reason and experience when it comes to determining the correct number of cards.


If you can hit your land drops you shouldn't lose to anything.
Thanks for hyping BS's importance :laugh: . Making that 3rd and 4th land drop (and FoF doesn't assist you here) is WAY more vital than any other land drop after that.

[rockout]

Thanks for hyping BS's importance :laugh: . Making that 3rd and 4th land drop (and FoF doesn't assist you here) is WAY more vital than any other land drop after that.
I do agree you need the 4th BS to consistently hit land drops in the early game (along with e. dragon) but I'd rather run a 3rd spell snare instead of a 4th BS.

[mossivo1986]

So for all of you that normally follow the build I pilot, here are the changes:




Land:22
4x Flooded
4x Tundra
3x Island
3x Plains
3x Mishra
1x Tolaria West
1x Dust Bowl
1x Academy Ruins
1x Scrubland
1x Underground Sea

Permission:10
4x Force of Will
4x Spell Snare
2x Vendillion Clique

Draw:10
4x Brainstorm
3x Standstill
2x Top
1x Fof

Removal:10
4x Swords
3x EE
2x Wrath
1x Humility

Utility:4
2x Relic
2x Wish

Win:9
3x Mishra
2x Decree
2x Vendillion
2x Elspeth

Sb:
1x Return 2 Dust
1x Extirpate
1x Pulse of the Fields
1x Enlightened tutor
1x Path to Exile
1x Hydroblast
1x Blue Elemental Blast
1x Runed Halo
1x COP: Green
1x Relic of progenitus
2x Ajani Goldmane
3x Engineered plague




* Blue is For cards have multiple angle uses. They are in blue to be not counted again.

* Pink is for wish targets for cunning wish.
*Green is for utility slots in the sb: These slots fill in for MM to make your other more aggresive matchups easier for now. All testing has led to this being the correct placement, but I could very well be wrong.

Overall:
-1 Ponder
+1 Spell Snare

* Counter top is getting out of control. It's being played en-force at every even I play in.

There are other various reasons, but when it comes down to it Spell Snare fits the slot better then brainstorm number 8

[Viscosity]

I think I just threw up a little. Post your list.

Since you asked nicely... :tongue:

4 Tundra
1 Academy Ruins
2 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Underground Sea
1 Tolaria West
1 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Plains
1 City of Traitors
2 Mox Diamond

2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Decree of Justice
1 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Trinket Mage

4 Standstill
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Jace Beleren
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Brainstorm
1 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
4 Stifle

SB:
2 Krosan Grip
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Engineered Plague
1 Counterbalance
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Energy Flux
1 Pithing Needle
1 Humility

(a common sideboard adjustment is -1 Tutor, +1 COP: Green)


it has been hard to dispute the power of the diamonds. After playing against my deck repeatedly, a fellow 1800+ legacy player adopted 2x mox into his LS deck as well, but he didn't add the city. The city is pretty much a love/hate thing. Sometimes I take it out for a 3rd waste. Also, I sometimes cut one mishra and the city for another basic plains and island. It depends on the meta.. and sometimes I add smothers (-1 els, -1 jace); again, a meta choice. I tried dropping green for a while, but I felt forced back to the grips on the side. They make the counterbalance match that much easier...

One thing I'm likely to change is going back to 3ee. I thought the addition of 2x trinket mage would make 2 EE OK.. But with no mass removal other than EE, I like to see them more often. Jace is the only slot I'd pull for it though, and I've been having fun with Jace.

[Henrik]

Is there an optimal list for straight UW landstill?
I will be testing this in the next local tournament:

4 standstill
3 humility
2 crucible of worlds

4 brainstorm
4 force of will
4 counterspell
4 spell snare
1 fact or fiction

3 wrath of god
2 engineered explosives

1 elspeth, knight-errant
2 decree of justice
1 eternal dragon
1 jace beleren

4 mishra's factory
4 wasteland
4 flooded strand
3 tundra
4 plains
4 island
1 faerie conclave

Any advice that do not say "splash another colour" is appreciated.

[Omega]

Because you have no access to Vindicate, Oblivion Ring might be useful to fight against opposing permanents that can be problematic, such as planeswalker

2 humility should be enough

Robert

[Smog]

This is my strictly UW build, take from it what you will.


// Lands
4 [U] Tundra
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [TE] Wasteland
3 [MR] Plains (4)
3 [5E] Island (3)
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory

// Creatures
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon
1 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant

// Spells
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [8E] Wrath of God
4 [OV] Swords to Plowshares
3 [SC] Decree of Justice
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [IA] Counterspell
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [CST] Brainstorm
2 [FNM] Fact or Fiction
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [TE] Humility

[Henrik]

Thank you both
It seems to me that I am on the right track. Testing will provide the final tweaking.

[klaus]

Thank you both
It seems to me that I am on the right track. Testing will provide the final tweaking.

Here's what I'd throw together without black duals:

4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm

4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Path to Exile
1 Wrath of God ----------swapped for Humility

1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Engineered Explosives (Edit: 3-1 = 2)
1 Oblivion Ring (Edit: 0+1 = 1)
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Vedalken Shackles

1 Decree of Justice
2 Elspeth
2 Jace Beleren

4 Mishra's Factory
4 Flooded strand
1 Pollted Delta
4 Island
3 Plains
4 Tundra
1 Other Blue Dual Land for EE @ 3 ("breeding pool"... if you dont have any)
1 Dustbowl
1 Tolaria West
1 Academy Ruins

SB:
4 Meddling Mage
1 Wrath of God
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Aura of Silence (CB, and all those Stompy, Stax, Enchantress and even Combo decks)
1 Runed Halo -----------could be Wrath#2/Ethersworn Canonist (via E.T.)...meta slot
4 Kitchen Finks: (NQN's input)
- Burn
- Sligh
- Rock
- non-stp-control
- straight aggro (affinity etc..)
- combo-> not brilliant but better than that MD creature hate
- general surprise tech (people will generally side out some creature hate against LS)
- Mirror
- Aggro Loam
- some more archetypes


-

Edit: The more I look at it, the more like it!

[rockout]

@Klaus: Hmm, Do you ever feel like you have too many 1 mana answers for creatures? Your list looks like it gets hosed by counter-top more than most Landstill builds I've seen.

I like your MD Crucible and MD Shackles. I've been fiddling with running md shackles and already run md crucible to replace a dragon. I'm a big fan of your finks out of the board. I'm going to have to try that because I'm to the point where I just say screw the burn/sligh MU and try to make my others better, but finks might get me there.

[FredMaster]

Your list looks like it gets hosed by counter-top more than most Landstill builds I've seen.

I feel like he doesn't care about this since Speedstill :)

[rockout]

I feel like he doesn't care about this since Speedstill :)

Still doesn't tell me how he kills a goyf through CB + Top with 7 1 cc removal spells.

[FredMaster]

Still doesn't tell me how he kills a goyf through CB + Top with 7 1 cc removal spells.
That was the point. You loose to Counterbalance/Chalice with that list, which means that it is bad and it should run other cards.

[rockout]

Oh ok, my bad, I just needed you to spell that out for me because I wasn't able to get that from your "cuz it's spellstill" post.

[Wargoos]

Ya, using irony kinda sucks.

[klaus]

That was the point. You loose to Counterbalance/Chalice with that list, which means that it is bad and it should run other cards.

Lol. That ain't SpeedStill.
One of SpeedStill's trademarks is the heavy black splash (incl. 3 Vindicates, %% Chalice, CB).

I threw that pile above together in like 6 minutes for that guy not owning Seas.
And it does not fold to CB/Chalice whatsoever.
3 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
4 Fow
and..
all tutorable:
2 EE
1 O. Ring
2 Aura's of Silence
is nothing to sneeze at, though I admit that the 3rd EE might be worthwhile.

[Raider Bob]

Since then I have playtested further and came up with the following deck.
Konsultant's list:

- 3 Wrath of God
- 1 Eternal dragon

+ 2 humility
+ 1 elspeth
+ 1 ajani

Allow me to explain.

Wrath of God: I don't like it MD. For too many an occasion it's just a 1 for 1. This is very much a metagame call of my part and I intend to keep at least 2 in my sideboard. It would take the place of humility more often then not post board. On other occasions it was useless because my opponent was playing manlands as well

Eternal dragon: instinctively my weakest choice. But I can't find an alternative to cut. I am already at 3 brainstorm which I don't like that much. My first idea was to cut 1 DoJ but I was very mistaken in this card. Although last time I tested my manabase was left untouched, so this may have warped my results.


On cutting Wrath of God, I agree 90% of the time this is a One for One exchange however with the Mass Tribal decks that have been showing up as late and the Thresh/Progenitus decks that are around you Punt game 1 by moving them to the board. Humility main deck game one solves this sort of but more time than not when Humility is on the table the same decks you want Wrath for are the same decks that humility is good for. All in all I feel that Wrath is the better call in the Landstill deck. (Side note: I do think that being able to STP a Nimble Mongoose is one of the best feelings a person can get in a magic game however)

On cutting an Eternal Dragon, I hate this card and love this card and as much as I hate it more times than not he just wins games. After playing about a billion Landstill games you see that you get card parity and the Eternal Dragon is the only card you need to put you over the top. Going more than two is not smart but going to one is not smart either.

On three Brainstorms, Past turn 1,2,3 when have you ever been happy to see this card? Even on turn 1,2 or 3 if you have good land drops and do not need to search for any other land drop you would rather have something better in your hand. This list of landstill is Redundant this is something that landstill really hasn't had before. It being redundant makes Brainstorm a subpar card in the list, if there was a better blue spell in the one slot this deck would run it but as for three is the best call for this card.

[rockout]

(Side note: I do think that being able to STP a Nimble Mongoose is one of the best feelings a person can get in a magic game)

I agree. Hopefully I'll be lucky enough to swords a Progenitus. That is my next goal as a Landstill player.

[mossivo1986]

I agree. Hopefully I'll be lucky enough to swords a Progenitus. That is my next goal as a Landstill player.

Atleast do that before you stop playing landstill :)

[Elf_Ascetic]

I agree. Hopefully I'll be lucky enough to swords a Progenitus. That is my next goal as a Landstill player.

A friend of mine forced his opponent to block Mishra's Factory so his Progenitus died. :cool:

(2 life left, Humility in play)


What are the thoughts about Academy ruins? I like the card combined with 2-3 EE and a Crucible, but I really hate the colorless mana it produces..

A typical landstillmanabase would look like this:

5-6 fetchland
4-5 basics
4-7-8 duals
3-4 factorys
0-3 wasteland
0-1 dust bowl
0-1 academy ruins
0-1 tolaria west.
0-2 Eternal Dragons

I'm currently on 24: 6 fetch, 5 basics, 7 duals, 1 dust bowl, 1 dragon, 4 factory.

Would Ruins be good in a meta where control is almost absent?

[FredMaster]

Lol. That ain't SpeedStill.
One of SpeedStill's trademarks is the heavy black splash (incl. 3 Vindicates, %% Chalice, CB).
I am aware of that.
The point I was making is that Speedstill has very similiar problems with Counterbalance as the list you posted.

Was it so hard to understand?

Damn that was THE example for irony not working online...again.

@ Elf_Ascetic:
I don't think that single Dust Bowl is worth it, if you can't tutor it up.
Plus if control isn't a factor in your meta, how about just cutting it?
You aren't screwing anyone with that one card.

I like Academy Ruins a lot for the lock it creates / overkill with Crypt postboard. I guess it is not totally necessary but if there are no heavy loads of landdestruction in your meta, I'd run it.

[3duece]

So I'm coming back to 3 color after a long time with 4c, I'm just sick of the manabase issues. I cobbled this build together and I think it looks promising but any help would be much appreciated.

4 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
4 tundra
1 tropical island
1 savannah
2 island
2 plains
4 mishra's factory
1 tolaria west
1 academy ruins
1 dust bowl

4 standstill
4 brainstorm
2 fact or fiction
4 counterspell
4 force of will
3 spell snare

4 swords to plowshares
3 wrath of god
2 engineered explosives
2 decree of justice
1 eternal dragon
1 relic of projenitus
1 humility
1 crucible of worlds
1 enlightened tutor

I guess it's a bit old school without elspeth or vindicate, so let me know what you think.

[klaus]

So I'm coming back to 3 color after a long time with 4c, I'm just sick of the manabase issues. I cobbled this build together and I think it looks promising but any help would be much appreciated.

4 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
4 tundra
1 tropical island
1 savannah
2 island
2 plains
4 mishra's factory
1 tolaria west
1 academy ruins
1 dust bowl

4 standstill
4 brainstorm
2 fact or fiction
4 counterspell
4 force of will
3 spell snare

4 swords to plowshares
3 wrath of god
2 engineered explosives
2 decree of justice
1 eternal dragon
1 relic of projenitus
1 humility
1 crucible of worlds
1 enlightened tutor

I guess it's a bit old school without elspeth or vindicate, so let me know what you think.

-1 Relic (it cycles without any impact in many games = SB material)
-1 Decree of Justice (you wanna draw it late game only, and Elspeth is teh nutz!)
- 1 Dragon (you don't need him with Elses you almost never get to time)
-2 Counterspell you just don't need that many
+2 Elspeth
+1 Krosan Grip
+2 Sensei's Divining Top (that guy wins games)
-
Just my 2 pence..

[mossivo1986]

-1 Relic (it cycles without any impact in many games = SB material)
-1 Decree of Justice (you wanna draw it late game only, and Elspeth is teh nutz!)
- 1 Dragon (you don't need him with Elses you almost never get to time)
-2 Counterspell you just don't need that many
+2 Elspeth
+1 Krosan Grip
+2 Sensei's Divining Top (that guy wins games)
-
Just my 2 pence..

as a 1 of you are right on relic. But if he plays it with a wish package he should absolutely love it. The utilitiy that two wish two relic gives you is actually quite impressive. The only thing I really don't like is the green splash, but thats just personal opinion. I believe you can't play 3c currently without 3 EP in the board.

[3duece]

So...black splash then? My impression of e.plague when I played 4c is that it's more of a speedbump against the 8 lord decks. I just figured grip might be more valuable as a sideboard option. I already tried elspeth on mws and I wasn't a huge fan honestly, I know people have mixed feelings on her but I just wasn't blown away. I do, however, really like the idea of top, especially since it gives me even more to do under a standstill. Is maindeck relic really no good? I play no grave effects accept a lone crucible, it seems great against goyf/stalker/terravore type decks, keep them off burning wish and they can't really win. I don't know, I'll test some more. I miss deed already.

[klaus]

I miss deed already.

Play 3 EEs & 3 Vindicates and you should be all set.

[konsultant]

I have to disagree with you here: Brainstorm is the best draw spell in Legacy, and I'd go as far as claiming "regardless of the resp. archetype, as long as the deck provides 5+ fetches". What you say about BS being awesome in the mid-game when paired with a fetch land is true but stating it's not a mana fixer in the early game boarders on blasphemy..
Compared to decks packing Ponder (aka. BS 5-8) BS becomes even more crucial as a mana fixer (regardless of the overall land count, LS needs more land online than those ponder.decs anyway).
The ideal LS starting 7 consist of 3 land 4 other rather low-costed cards [allowing you to comfortably reach the mid-game]. Well, more often than not we end up with 2-land-hands, praying for good topdecks. Quite frequently Brainstorm functions as earlygame land drop #3 and consequently as land 24-27/25-28, which is fantastic.
-
Many U-control players misplay BS as an early-game manafixer, though.
Say they made their 2nd land drop (no fetchies among them), having no more land in hand but a BS - I'd say 90% would go BS @ the end of their opp's turn, regardless of what else they're holding. I won't go in depth here because it's not the appropriate post for this, but playing that BS in turn let's you see one more card and thus increases the chance of making that vital 3rd land drop quite a bit.
-
Being able to shuffle those Decrees and Elses and Wraths etc away between turn 2-4 is slick tech, too.

Anyway, I'd run 7 if I could.

The Brainstorm thing is a very situational issue, in certain situations and in certain builds of Landstill it is better or worse. In the current build I have up there I strongly favor the 3rd Spellsnare over the 4th Brainstorm. I've explained my approach and reasonings for this strategy and I stand by the desicion to only run 3 in my build.

Builds of Landstill that aren't as redundent as mine would probably be better off with the 4th Brainstorm. I don't go for the tool box approach I simply go for the steady inevitable win and my list is very well set up to do just that.

It's funny that the Landstill thread gets split and we still have 2 different builds of Landstill evolving in the same thread. Traditional U/W style builds and the newer "Speedstill" approach to the deck. Unfortunatly having 2 very different decks in the same thread creates confusion when getting down to card choices and reasonings. I would never cut the Brainstorm from Klaus's list but it is irrelivent when cut from my list. This is something to consider when looking at people's perspective and their advice.

[mossivo1986]

So...black splash then? My impression of e.plague when I played 4c is that it's more of a speedbump against the 8 lord decks. I just figured grip might be more valuable as a sideboard option. I already tried elspeth on mws and I wasn't a huge fan honestly, I know people have mixed feelings on her but I just wasn't blown away. I do, however, really like the idea of top, especially since it gives me even more to do under a standstill. Is maindeck relic really no good? I play no grave effects accept a lone crucible, it seems great against goyf/stalker/terravore type decks, keep them off burning wish and they can't really win. I don't know, I'll test some more. I miss deed already.

Personally I live and die by my list, but you already knew that.

[Master Shake]

I agree. Hopefully I'll be lucky enough to swords a Progenitus. That is my next goal as a Landstill player.
Personally, it was a great feeling for me to block a Progenitus with a soldier token [and kill it, obviously.]

[Ectoplasm]

So how about humility? It seems like alot of people still play it, though I dont really like it anymore since it turns you into the reactive player, getting shafted by shit like krosan grip while your opponent just bides his time, setting up his game to the point where you just get destroyed by a bunch of goblin piledrivers you considered vanilla 1/1's until your opponent decided to actually make a move.

I don't know. It seems like a great card, but it feels like you're setting yourself up to be on the receiving end of legendary plays, instead of delivering them yourself.

[3duece]

I think that is sometimes a valid concern. However, in my experience the destruction of humility plays out in two ways. One, the opponent deals with it quickly before mounting a generous offense, allowing you to use spot removal and decree to deal with what he has. Two, the opponent takes the turns necessary to mount an offense while you draw tons of cards. He grips your humility but you either have a decree in hand or elspeth down (I don't play her, but still thinking about it). You block and survive, untap, and wrath. I know that sounds like a narrow situation but it actually plays out like that fairly often. Or, of course, you beat in with factories/decree tokens and win before they can handle it.

[Omega]

Humility is still great against decks that do not run Krosan Grip

I still consider it as a major bomb. Left unanswered, you usually win the game. My list also run Crucible of Worlds. I prefer my opponent using their Grip on Humility than on COW

Robert

[GGoober]

Here are my problems with UW Landstill today.

Is it me or Landstill simply dies to Moon Effects? My opponent is a good Dragonstompy player and he runs a list with three Trinisphere, 4 Magus, 3 Blood Moon all MD, together with Chalice @1. The only games that I've won are: either I went first so Spell Snare stopped Chalice@1, and I FOWed all his moon effects or fetched for enough basics after that. Even with pure UW Landstill, I run into too much colorless. My manabase was:

4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
1 Tropical Island (for EE @3 against Moon effects)
4 Islands
2 Plains
2 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins

and my list was
INTUITION UW LANDSTILL
Lands
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
1 Tropical Island (for EE @3 against Moon effects)
4 Islands
2 Plains
2 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins

Draws/Tutor
4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei's Diving Top (this is so good with Standstill)
4 Standstill
2 Intuition

Permission:
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell

Board control
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Elspeth
1 Decree of Justice (not liking this too much)
1 Humility
1 Wrath of God
2 Vedalken Shackles (Always been a fan of these in any form of blue control deck. It is another good win-condition. A little inconsistent with the manabase against wastelands/moon in my meta, great with Intuition tutoring)
1 Crucible of Worlds



I play my own variant, with Intuition for Academy+Crucible+Wasteland/Shackles lock. Seems weak sometimes. I really want to green for LftL. I might play some sort of UWg or UWbg Landstill with LftL and Intuition, but untill I solve the colorless issue, or effects under Moon, I don't know if I'll pick up this deck for my metagame.

What's the common Wishtarget for Wishstill? Enlightened tutor to search up your lock? Why not run 2-3 Enlightened Tutor? Is there too much card disadvantage with Enlightened Tutor?

I thought I would have a bad MU against black discard, but apparently, spell snare, STP, Brainstorm does so much against them, and Standstill refills your hand without any trouble.

If anyone can answer my questions about Landstill's MU and weaknesses, and how to improve on the games against chalice/3sphere/Moon.dec, I'd really appreciate it. I think I found my favorite deck after MUC. UW Landstill is an edge more powerful than MUC due to the white splash.

[Ziilot]

I'm not fan of decrees either. Also I think that humility is great card, but it makes Eternal Dragon 'useless'. I would like to cut one decree and dragon but then there would be less win conditions.

I'm running this list:

creature [2]
1 Eternal Dragon
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

instant [20]
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Fact or Fiction
2 Spell Snare

sorcery [4]
2 Decree of Justice
2 Wrath of God

enchantment [6]
4 Standstill
2 Humility

artifact [4]
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Crucible of Worlds

land [24]
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Tundra
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Scrubland
1 Underground Sea
1 Tolaria West
1 Academy Ruins
1 Dust Bowl

Thinking about something like this:
-1 Dust Bowl
-1 Tolaria West
-1 Academy Ruins
-1 Crucible of Worlds
-1 Eternal Dragon
-1 Engineered Explosives
+2-3 Vindicate
+3 Wasteland
+1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

[FredMaster]

If you don't like Humility to shrink your Dragon, just play Top instead of the creature. I can say that Sensei's Divining Top replaces the Dragon completely plus it grants you the "Godcheat" (Standstill + Top) and it will give you an even bigger mid/lategame.

Concerning your changes I'd say that they look reasonable except for cutting the Crucible. When you prefer the Wasteland manabase then I'd strongly advise to play Crucible as well, for the obvious reasons.
I don't know if it necessary to play 24 lands with that manabase, since I had no problems with my 23 so far, but it might be different when you run Wastelands.

[rockout]

@crz87: Run E. Dragon if you are having trouble being DS.

[Spur Grappler]

The argument against Humility that it makes your Eternal Dragon 1/1 ist just ridiculus. When you have your Humitily in play you will probably win through Decree/Factory/Elspeth and you don't need to play your Dragon anyway. By the way, the dragon is in 90% of your games just mana fixer.

The problem with Wrath is, that you are often forced to trade it 1/1 or 1/2 against Goyf or other creatures, if you have no other removal. Humility is a real threat on the Board against most decks, cause it disables all creatures on the board and those that will come in the later game. Your oppenent will have to answer it with countermagic or Grip or will probably loose. Wrath gives you some time, but as soon as another threat comes on the board your problems start again. And most players are intelligent enough not to overextend against Lanstill.
By the way, the opponent will need his or her grips for EE as well, which makes it quite likely that you will get at least EE or Humility to work.

I play following list which seems quite satisfying to me.

MAIN DECK:

lands(24):
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Tolaria West
1 Academy Ruins
3 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory

counter(15):
4 FoW
4 CS
4 Spell Snare
3 Stifle

drawing engine(8):
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm

board control and removal(9):
4 StPS
3 EE
2 Humility

finisher(4):
2 Decree of Justice
1 Eternal Dragon
1 Crucible (is board contol, mana fixer or finisher because it reanimates your factories)

SIDEBOARD:
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Etirpate
3 REB
2 Hydroblast
4 Engineered Plague


This list has a massive counterbase which is just great against so many decks today. Spell Snare is equally useful against most aggro, combo and control. For me it seems everything but playing 4 is a mistake.

I do without Enligthened Tutor and Cunning Wish. I think they are too slow. Tutor would be really great to search EE, Crucible or Humility and maybe I would play 1, but I don't like the carddisadvantage which is against the principles of Landstill in my opinion. But I'm not really sure about the Tutor (and what I would cut for it, maybe 1 CS). It definately is a great top deck in the mid and late game. I would be glad to hear some opinions on that one.
Cunning Wish is simply not useful against most bad Aggro matchups like Goyf Sligh. Having more Snares or Stifles in that slot keeps you alive in the early game. Cunning Wish is really bad in the early game and ruins your Sideboard which are to many negatives for me to play it.

I play 2 Decree of Justice, because it cycles. Maybe I would change one into Elspeth or a Wrath. I built this Deck to get Landstill a better early and mid game and cards like Elspeth are just bad on your starting hand and only useful, if you have board control. In 90% of all games I kill with factory and decree alone and I don't feel the need of Elspeth, though she may be a great card. Decree can surpsie the opponent while attacking, but it is vulnerable against Stifle which is played more frequently these days.

I feel like most Landstill players play to many killing options. I often see 3 Decree and 2 Elspeth. But I think it occurs rarely that you have board control and just nothing to kill your opponent. In the past I often lost because of the opposite. If you attack carefully with your Factory and not without counter protection against StPS you can win the game with 1-2 Factories alone.

[rockout]

I think you might want to rethink your list and run some more win conditions. Since you cut fof your only ways of "digging" are having crucible in play and fetching all the lands out of your deck, casting bs, or relying on standstill to get there. Sometimes standstill is that good but a lot of times you won't see your win conditions without some dig to dig deeper or just your number of outs.

[Citrus-God]

4 Standstills and 4 Brainstorms aren't enough. Try running some SDTs or Ponders if you dislike FoF.

[grahf]

Not sure if any of you saw this, but vroman did a tournament report on a Landstill variant he played at the GP. It looks pretty bizarre to me, but hey what do I know, he did decently well.

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=37544.0

He cut Brainstorm for Thirst, Counterspell for Negate, and used Chrome Mox to power out a higher than usual enchantment count. Manlands as the only win-cons. Huh? Also note he lost the mirror, facing superior card drawing and board control.

[Spur Grappler]

4 Standstills and 4 Brainstorms aren't enough. Try running some SDTs or Ponders if you dislike FoF.

Hmm, I don't really think so. With Landstill you normally play 25 turns at least. And if you resolve Brainstorms and Standstills you will see probably about 1/2 to 2/3 of your Deck to find win conditions. And as I said before, mostly the problem is not finding win conditions, it's staying alive long enough to win with them.

I played 1-2 FoF for a long time in older Landstill Builds and it wasn't bad of course. But my Intention was to keep Landstill fast enough, to keep up with faster Decks. To get 1-2 FoF in, I would have to cut some Counterspells and I am afraid of this.

I think I will cut one Counterspell for a FoF and see if it is better. FoF is FoW-pitchable which makes it maybe better than an Enligthened Tutor.

[Citrus-God]

Hmm, I don't really think so. With Landstill you normally play 25 turns at least. And if you resolve Brainstorms and Standstills you will see probably about 1/2 to 2/3 of your Deck to find win conditions. And as I said before, mostly the problem is not finding win conditions, it's staying alive long enough to win with them.

If you can keep your opponent in check for the next 13 turns, then this logic should work.


I played 1-2 FoF for a long time in older Landstill Builds and it wasn't bad of course. But my Intention was to keep Landstill fast enough, to keep up with faster Decks. To get 1-2 FoF in, I would have to cut some Counterspells and I am afraid of this.


If you want to keep up with faster decks, that doesn't mean cut FoF; that means run more early game answers like Spell Snare. I also see Stifle in there too... but Stifle is so situational.


I think I will cut one Counterspell for a FoF and see if it is better. FoF is FoW-pitchable which makes it maybe better than an Enligthened Tutor.

Cut your Stifles altogether for a couple FoFs and other random cards. Stifles just don't do that much, especially against your trouble match ups. Also, TES isn't a valid answer; they run Chants and Ad Nauseam.

[from Cairo]

I really want to green for LftL. I might play some sort of UWg or UWbg Landstill with LftL and Intuition, but untill I solve the colorless issue, or effects under Moon, I don't know if I'll pick up this deck for my metagame.


Since you're using Green for your 3rd color for EE anyway I'd definitely run a Life from the Loam, it makes you're Intuition piles that much more busted.

[Spur Grappler]

Cut your Stifles altogether for a couple FoFs and other random cards. Stifles just don't do that much, especially against your trouble match ups. Also, TES isn't a valid answer; they run Chants and Ad Nauseam.


This may be true. I really like Stifle because of it's flexibility, but countering fetchlands, which of course stays very strong, works mainly against good matchups. Against problematic decks like Dragon/Fairy Stompy, Mono U Faeries/Merfolk and most other aggro Stifle isn't that strong. I'll try 2 FoF and Wrath for them I think.

[Viscosity]

I for one, absolutely love stifle in landstill. I've said it before; stifling a first or second turn fetch land is extremely powerful. :wink:

The lack of stifle in the common landstill deck-lists results in more people walking into a first turn stifle. In those cases, the game feels... just.. easy...

I say if you like stifle, use it.

[mossivo1986]

I for one, absolutely love stifle in landstill. I've said it before; stifling a first or second turn fetch land is extremely powerful. :wink:

The lack of stifle in the common landstill deck-lists results in more people walking into a first turn stifle. In those cases, the game feels... just.. easy...

I say if you like stifle, use it.

Stifle is strong if you have enough pressure to back it up in the early game. Which is why decks like thresh/ merfolk/ fish ect. play it. Decks like Landstill simply do not have the kind of pressure to make stifle the insane card it really is when you need it. I'm willing to be that your reasoning behind stifle being soo good is that of the sloppy play into suprise factor.

[Citrus-God]

Stifle is strong if you have enough pressure to back it up in the early game. Which is why decks like thresh/ merfolk/ fish ect. play it. Decks like Landstill simply do not have the kind of pressure to make stifle the insane card it really is when you need it. I'm willing to be that your reasoning behind stifle being soo good is that of the sloppy play into suprise factor.

Landstill applies pressure... a very different kind of pressure. Decks that generally run LD tend to apply pressure by winning. When a deck like Landstill applies pressure, it's different. What Landstill tries to achieve when it uses LD is to use the gained tempo to set up a more dominant position over the opponent. That in itself becomes pressure because winning for you becomes inevitable if you achieve the dominant position. This is also why using LD in control decks is much more efficient compared to aggro; because if the LD fails, you can fallback easier. This is also why Geoff Smelski runs Vindicate, because if LD aspect fails, then you can just use Vindicate to blow things up.

[konsultant]

Landstill applies pressure... a very different kind of pressure. Decks that generally run LD tend to apply pressure by winning. When a deck like Landstill applies pressure, it's different. What Landstill tries to achieve when it uses LD is to use the gained tempo to set up a more dominant position over the opponent. That in itself becomes pressure because winning for you becomes inevitable if you achieve the dominant position. This is also why using LD in control decks is much more efficient compared to aggro; because if the LD fails, you can fallback easier. This is also why Geoff Smelski runs Vindicate, because if LD aspect fails, then you can just use Vindicate to blow things up.

This is very true, the Waste and Vindicate strategy as Mana Denial come's out of nowhere and is usually game against decks like Survival. Stifle is different than Vindicate though, I've never had much luck with a dedicated Mana Denial strategy in Landstill outside of Crucible + Waste. The Vindicate's are alway's useful and Stifle is situationally a bomb. Stifle would probably work best in lists that are running Plainswalkers in the MD.

[mossivo1986]

This is very true, the Waste and Vindicate strategy as Mana Denial come's out of nowhere and is usually game against decks like Survival. Stifle is different than Vindicate though, I've never had much luck with a dedicated Mana Denial strategy in Landstill outside of Crucible + Waste. The Vindicate's are alway's useful and Stifle is situationally a bomb. Stifle would probably work best in lists that are running Plainswalkers in the MD.

Interesting perspective. I think i'd have to play a list that runs wasteland/stifle or vindicate in order to get a better perspective. The last time I ran stifle/wasteland in landstill had to be sometime in 06 when I first began playing the archtype. As for the general approach I don't really prefer the strategy as my flavor of approach, but I should test it anyways.

BTW quick update, 4x spell snare has been absurdly good. Having that 40% chance in the opener has been regularly brutal. The switch has been more then worth it. Sorry Ponder :(

[Ziilot]

What do you guys think of Vendilion Clique? It would help (?) you against combo mu and it would also be a great finisher with evasion. You could also take and put your unwanted decree on the bottom of your library and draw needed answers ;).

But I'm just pondering here, haven't really tried it yet.

[3duece]

Mossivo likes 'em. They seem like really good utility if you can find room. They are quite fragile, however. So it's probably very meta dependent.

[dakkon]

At the GP, I ran stifle and vindicate out of the board (my list is a few pages back). Both cards are good in the mirror. I've certainly won a lot more games stifling planewalkers/decree/deed/all goblins than turbo land destruction. It was nice having that option though.

[NQN]

What do you guys think of Vendilion Clique? It would help (?) you against combo mu and it would also be a great finisher with evasion. You could also take and put your unwanted decree on the bottom of your library and draw needed answers ;).

But I'm just pondering here, haven't really tried it yet.


I tryed them out and they were always like "oh, you have two plowshares and another removal...hmmmm...keep it".
Since I really like the card I`d like to hear some pros for the card :)

[mossivo1986]

At the GP, I ran stifle and vindicate out of the board (my list is a few pages back). Both cards are good in the mirror. I've certainly won a lot more games stifling planewalkers/decree/deed/all goblins than turbo land destruction. It was nice having that option though.

I can see where one might consider stifle in the board but I strongly disagree with vindicate.

Stifle actually has a solid purpose in its demeaner to stop combo/ gain solid tempo in certain matchups but vindicate to me is such an all purpose utility card that I would think its either maindecked or just isn't run. There simply in my mind is no reason to run it in the sideboard.

[Citrus-God]

Interesting perspective. I think i'd have to play a list that runs wasteland/stifle or vindicate in order to get a better perspective. The last time I ran stifle/wasteland in landstill had to be sometime in 06 when I first began playing the archtype. As for the general approach I don't really prefer the strategy as my flavor of approach, but I should test it anyways.

BTW quick update, 4x spell snare has been absurdly good. Having that 40% chance in the opener has been regularly brutal. The switch has been more then worth it. Sorry Ponder :(

If anything, play the lists with Vindicate. Stifle is such a mediocre card.

[mossivo1986]

If anything, play the lists with Vindicate. Stifle is such a mediocre card.

Hmm I dont know, if your thinking of the random ld approach stifle+Vind. + Wasteland seems even stronger then normal approaches, but then again I guess it depends on how deep the rabbit hole goes?

[Citrus-God]

Hmm I dont know, if your thinking of the random ld approach stifle+Vind. + Wasteland seems even stronger then normal approaches, but then again I guess it depends on how deep the rabbit hole goes?

I've played a lot of builds with Stifle/Wasteland. 4c Landstill was awful because it was inconsistent, UWG Epic Landstill was decent but Stifles didn't do much outside of pitching to FoW and Stifle didn't matter when I was playing against Threshold. The mild LD elements would blunder out on me because Thresh was designed to fight Wastelands and other forms of LD in mind thanks to their cantrips.

I'd prefer Vindicate and Wasteland, mainly because Vindicate can destroy lands, Counterbalance, Goyfs and Gaddock Teeg.

[rockout]

Do we not remember the hilarity that this post brought:




First turn stifling a fetch land is still the best play for a landstill deck.nopeI lol'd

? Apparently not. Why run stifle in your ld package. Run Vindicate. It answers anything in the format besides nimble mongoose.

[Citrus-God]

Do we not remember the hilarity that this post brought:



? Apparently not. Why run stifle in your ld package. Run Vindicate. It answers anything in the format besides nimble mongoose.

And Nimble Mongoose can be answered via WoG or Mishra's Factory. Decks that generally run Mongoose and removal spells generally run Brainstorms. People tend to Brainstorm their removal away. That's a valid reason to trade Factories for Mongeese.

[mossivo1986]

That's a valid reason to trade Factories for Mongeese.

How about that it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside when you achieve damage on the stack?

[dakkon]

Again, take a look at my list. I play vindicate side because my MD has heavy removal. I tuned my list to be mono white control with some counters and draw. Vindicates are there post board to stop needles, teeg, and opposing planeswalkers in the mirror. Unless I'm playing the mirror, I don't miss vindicate g1 at all.

[mossivo1986]

"Again, take a look at my list. I play vindicate side because my MD has heavy removal. I tuned my list to be mono white control with some counters and draw. Vindicates are there post board to stop needles, teeg, and opposing planeswalkers in the mirror. Unless I'm playing the mirror, I don't miss vindicate g1 at all."

Just looked at your last x posts option and couldn't find it. Can you repost it?

[dakkon]

My list/mini report is on page 61 or so of the thread. If you still can't find it I can re-post it when I get off work. I've cut the yugioh stifle and have changed the board some. MD is still the same.

[mossivo1986]

4 Force of Will
2 Negate
2 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
1 Eternal Dragon
1 Sensei’s Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Wrath of God
3 Humility
2 Propaganda
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Decree of Justice
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
1 Ajani Goldmane
1 Stifle*
4 Flooded Strand
2 Tundra
2 Scrubland
4 Mishra’s Factory
4 Island
5 Plains
3 Wasteland

SB
2 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Vindicate
3 Perish
2 Stifle
1 Negate
1 Spell Snare
1 Ajani Goldmane

ok so heres your list, thanx for the referance. I'm at the office right now and things can be quite difficult to find with an assload of people to talk with ect.

I'll reform my thoughts later, but I did want to pull the list out quickly.

[Spur Grappler]

Why should one play Negate? If you run 5 Plains there may be a reason for that, but I see no reason to play 5 Plains. Are you just very afraid of Magus and LD? Or Price of Progress? Why ever play more than 2? If you cut 3 of them for 2 Tundra and 1 USea you easily get UU for CS. It happens not rarely that you want to counter a Goyf or Confidant or Teeg. Your list plays massive removal, but why do without the advantage of CS?
And even if you don't want to cut 3 Plains, I think even playing 4 Snare and no Negate is better.

Vindicate in the side can't be good. I really don't want to be destructive here, but Vindicate is just THE card for a main. Your sideboard slots are so valuably, don't waste them for cards that are good against 95% of all decks. I'm not the only one who thinks that. Please, just think about that issue again.

[mossivo1986]

Why should one play Negate? If you run 5 Plains there may be a reason for that, but I see no reason to play 5 Plains. Are you just very afraid of Magus and LD? Or Price of Progress? Why ever play more than 2? If you cut 3 of them for 2 Tundra and 1 USea you easily get UU for CS. It happens not rarely that you want to counter a Goyf or Confidant or Teeg. Your list plays massive removal, but why do without the advantage of CS?
And even if you don't want to cut 3 Plains, I think even playing 4 Snare and no Negate is better.

Bingo


Vindicate in the side can't be good. I really don't want to be destructive here, but Vindicate is just THE card for a main. Your sideboard slots are so valuably, don't waste them for cards that are good against 95% of all decks. I'm not the only one who thinks that. Please, just think about that issue again.

2 for 2.

So as promised i'm going to break down why I dont see the validity in your deck.

dakkon:


4 Force of Will
2 Negate
2 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
1 Eternal Dragon
1 Sensei’s Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Wrath of God
3 Humility
2 Propaganda
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Decree of Justice
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
1 Ajani Goldmane
1 Stifle*
4 Flooded Strand
2 Tundra
2 Scrubland
4 Mishra’s Factory
4 Island
5 Plains
3 Wasteland

SB
2 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Vindicate
3 Perish
2 Stifle
1 Negate
1 Spell Snare
1 Ajani Goldmane

If we break this deck down not looking at the sideboard heres what it comes out to for me:


Permission: 8
4 Force of Will
2 Negate
2 Spell Snare

Draw: 9
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
1 Sensei’s Divining Top


removal: 14
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Wrath of God
3 Humility
2 Propaganda
2 Engineered Explosives

Win Cons 9
1 Eternal Dragon
2 Decree of Justice
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
1 Ajani Goldmane
4 Mishras factory

Utility: 2
1 Stifle*
1 Eternal Dragon

The permission suite is interesting, and though I think 8 is a solid number to work off Negate isn't in the equation to me. what are you trying to achieve by runnning a 2 mana sub par counter. Your better off to run spell snare, counterspell, vendillion clique, ect. Thats up to you but the post above me was absolutely right about negate being pretty dead.

Your light on draw. You have 1 top, and no power draw. your one true filter besides for x1 top is BS. Other then that your hozed. Consider another top and another fof or 2. Possibly some other combination.

Heres where it get ugly. Why on eath are you running propaganda in the main, and also x3 humility in a non-stax deck? You relying on it alot to win you matchups.

Ill continue later. But to give you a gist I think your numbers are off alittle.

[rsaunder]

22 land with 1 dragon and 7 colorless sources also seems a tad light.

[dakkon]

I actually play 24 land if you look at my list, with 1 dragon and 1 top, and 4 brainstorm. Making land drops isn't a problem. I tested this mana base extensively against goobafish's list. IMO, there's no reason to run 4 tundra in a 2 color deck and get owned by wasteland stifle daze. People play 4 tundra because they need to get UU by t2 and WWUU by t4. Negate negates this.

What creatures are you afraid of? This deck plays an ass load of removal. Confidant and Painter are the only ones I would consider countering since I play more humility and wrath than most lists. I have never wished Negate were Counterspell and won my matches because of the rock solid mana base and 4cc bombs.

The only matches I want more counters is in the mirror and against combo, and I have an extra copy of Snare and Negate in the board; keep in mind negate = counterspell in the matches where you need them. Against other matches (thresh thresh thresh) I used them to back up humility, and it's not uncommon that I side out my counters for perish and vindicate.

Vroman and I played a bunch and based the deck around humility and therefore white control with blue support cards. He prefers playing moxen to speed out 4cc bombs and replaced brainstorm with thirst to overcome the card disadvantage.

Because my list is heavy geared towards beating aggro and aggro control I concede the mirror g1 is unfavorable (lots of dead cards). However, I haven't lost many mirror matches because post board with stifle, vindicate, more counters, relic, ajani, + a stable mana base, I'm not scared at all. I beat the mirror 4 times to win our GPT.

@ propaganda. This was added last minute after watching vroman destroy dredge with it. I would have lost my affinity match at the end of day 1 without it. And iirc it bought me a few turns in my dragon stompy and thresh match. It pads my blue count and helps me out against dredge and goblins.

@ my 5 plains. Go ahead and laugh but I 2-0'd both my Dragon Stompy matches (one of them against Mink). I honestly did not care about Magus or blood moon. Those matches went Chalice, 3phere, Blood Moon, Dragon. I went land, land, land, land, humility, wrath, planeswalker. Again keep in mind I'm playing MWC with some counter magic and draw. Yes, I like my basic lands. I did not give a crap about stifle, waste, daze all day.

Look, UW landstill is probably the most customizable deck out there. I've tried a lot of different options and arrived at this list and it has proved viable to me, since it fits both my playstyle and more important what I want to do with it.

[mossivo1986]

I actually play 24 land if you look at my list, with 1 dragon and 1 top, and 4 brainstorm. Making land drops isn't a problem. I tested this mana base extensively against goobafish's list. IMO, there's no reason to run 4 tundra in a 2 color deck and get owned by wasteland stifle daze. People play 4 tundra because they need to get UU by t2 and WWUU by t4. Negate negates this.

What creatures are you afraid of? This deck plays an ass load of removal. Confidant and Painter are the only ones I would consider countering since I play more humility and wrath than most lists. I have never wished Negate were Counterspell and won my matches because of the rock solid mana base and 4cc bombs.

The only matches I want more counters is in the mirror and against combo, and I have an extra copy of Snare and Negate in the board; keep in mind negate = counterspell in the matches where you need them. Against other matches (thresh thresh thresh) I used them to back up humility, and it's not uncommon that I side out my counters for perish and vindicate.

Vroman and I played a bunch and based the deck around humility and therefore white control with blue support cards. He prefers playing moxen to speed out 4cc bombs and replaced brainstorm with thirst to overcome the card disadvantage.

Because my list is heavy geared towards beating aggro and aggro control I concede the mirror g1 is unfavorable (lots of dead cards). However, I haven't lost many mirror matches because post board with stifle, vindicate, more counters, relic, ajani, + a stable mana base, I'm not scared at all. I beat the mirror 4 times to win our GPT.

@ propaganda. This was added last minute after watching vroman destroy dredge with it. I would have lost my affinity match at the end of day 1 without it. And iirc it bought me a few turns in my dragon stompy and thresh match. It pads my blue count and helps me out against dredge and goblins.

@ my 5 plains. Go ahead and laugh but I 2-0'd both my Dragon Stompy matches (one of them against Mink). I honestly did not care about Magus or blood moon. Those matches went Chalice, 3phere, Blood Moon, Dragon. I went land, land, land, land, humility, wrath, planeswalker. Again keep in mind I'm playing MWC with some counter magic and draw. Yes, I like my basic lands. I did not give a crap about stifle, waste, daze all day.

Look, UW landstill is probably the most customizable deck out there. I've tried a lot of different options and arrived at this list and it has proved viable to me, since it fits both my playstyle and more important what I want to do with it.

hm, interesting. I do see more of what your talking about. The playstyle seems interesting, maybe alittle clunky. Did you test enlightened tutor in 1 of the humility slots cutting humility down to 2 that way you have the option of grabbbing top-standstill-humility-prop-ee.

[dakkon]

I tested ET early on and had mixed results; it may be worth testing again. It wasn’t terrible as a one of and can open up some ideas for the board. I wasn’t too impressed at the time and ended up cutting it (especially since I’ve cut Crucible).

I started with 2 humility in a more traditional list (4/3/3 StP-WoG-EE, 10 hard counters) and I was amazed by how humility just steals g1, especially against randomness. You’re right, it is clunky and 2 seems correct. I wanted 3 for the GP since I anticipated heavy aggro control, tribal aggro, and randomness. I’ll likely go down to 2 for smaller tournaments and play the 3rd EE.

@ vindicate MD or side. You have to look at what your particular LS build is doing. Since mine is heavy anti creature, as far as permanents go, I get destroyed by Crucible, Teeg (when backed up by CB), Needles, and planeswalkers. This narrows it down to the control mirror and post board games against UGW thresh and so I opted to play them side. It’s not MD or don’t play them for me because those cards will wreck me and vindicate answers all of them. In a heavy control meta you bet I would play 2-3 vindicates main but that just wasn’t my concern for the GP.

@ negate. Yes, Snare is good and it makes up for some tempo in a slow deck like this. However it can’t counter everything obviously and I’ve been very happy with Negate as another hard counter.

[rsaunder]

Gotcha, sorry I was having a bad day counting apparently.

Back in the day I remember mana leak getting played by people who were having trouble hitting UU on turn 2. Is the hard-counter nature of negate worth it over the versatility of something like mana leak? Countering that tarmo the turn after a wrath seems pretty important to me.

[mossivo1986]

I tested ET early on and had mixed results; it may be worth testing again. It wasn’t terrible as a one of and can open up some ideas for the board. I wasn’t too impressed at the time and ended up cutting it (especially since I’ve cut Crucible).

I started with 2 humility in a more traditional list (4/3/3 StP-WoG-EE, 10 hard counters) and I was amazed by how humility just steals g1, especially against randomness. You’re right, it is clunky and 2 seems correct. I wanted 3 for the GP since I anticipated heavy aggro control, tribal aggro, and randomness. I’ll likely go down to 2 for smaller tournaments and play the 3rd EE.

@ vindicate MD or side. You have to look at what your particular LS build is doing. Since mine is heavy anti creature, as far as permanents go, I get destroyed by Crucible, Teeg (when backed up by CB), Needles, and planeswalkers. This narrows it down to the control mirror and post board games against UGW thresh and so I opted to play them side. It’s not MD or don’t play them for me because those cards will wreck me and vindicate answers all of them. In a heavy control meta you bet I would play 2-3 vindicates main but that just wasn’t my concern for the GP.

@ negate. Yes, Snare is good and it makes up for some tempo in a slow deck like this. However it can’t counter everything obviously and I’ve been very happy with Negate as another hard counter.


i sent you a pm regarding your build and some possible options for it. I think you have some fundamental issues to really think about before you can really focus on the heavy removal splash you have.

[Elf_Ascetic]

I've played mana leak in 3 and 4C Landstill, in a heavy nonbasics base. It was sometimes ok, sometimes nessisary, sometimes very bad (lategame, obv).

I still think it's better then negate, uness you have a very removal orientated build. It's nice to counter a Dark Confidant on turn 2, or a Tombstalker in turn 4.

[dakkon]

Agreed. Unless you have a removal heavy build, you want the flexibility of countering creatures. My build asks the following: Can you win through Humility, backed up by WoG, planeswalkers, and spot removal? The blue is in there to find and to protect these cards. If no, then gg SB in your K. Grips and try again. If yes, then you are playing something that is very bad for me and I consider combo, mirrors, and Loam at the top of that list.

I'm confident in my Loam and mirror matches post board. I'm certainly capable of winning the mirror g1 but should I feel I'm losing a drawn out attrition battle, I have no problem scooping and bringing in almost my whole board for another 2 games of MtG.

Storm combo is a crap shoot. I played both Brandon (emidln) and his cousin at our GPT with DDFT. Both matches went to 3 games and I won one and lost one by luck. It's a bad matchup and I'm not comfortable with it and won't be unless I have CB lock or playing Chant-Stifle-Daze-Meddling Mage-Goyf.dec.

Negate is a hard counter for me because it counters things that I want to counter. I'm running a split with Snare because I concede that it is useful to sandbag that Confidant/Goyf/CB drop and bring the match to the midgame. I certainly would not play 4 of one or the other. I want access to 3 of each in my 75. You can split them MD or SB however you wish depending on your metagame.

[Viscosity]

Dakkon - Although my list will differ from yours in many respects (my meta has so few creatures right now), I really have been thinking about increasing my basic count. So I'm going to do that now :)

I've read somewhere something that went like this:

Legacy Format = non-basics
Non-Basic Hate > Non-Basics
Basic Lands > Non-Basic Hate

Therefore:
Basic Lands > Legacy Format


Also Just curious: Isn't ghostly prison safer than prop, because it cant be blasted post board?
I've running one prison on my board for a long time for the ichorid MU.

Wouldn't the eternal dragon be better as a crucible? I'd rather have wasteland lock over a 7 mana 1/1.

[Citrus-God]

Gotcha, sorry I was having a bad day counting apparently.

Back in the day I remember mana leak getting played by people who were having trouble hitting UU on turn 2. Is the hard-counter nature of negate worth it over the versatility of something like mana leak? Countering that tarmo the turn after a wrath seems pretty important to me.

Spell Snare > Negate. I don't see how Negate would ever be better than Spell Snare, really.

[mossivo1986]

because in his model its not the tempo from a creature that he cares about. He has enough removal. Its the bombs that he wants to take care of. Negate is a smart choice.

[dakkon]

I like Negate in conjunction with Spell Snare. So to me, the question is whether to play Counterspell or Negate. In more traditional lists with 6 fetches, 4 tundra, 2 black duals, and less 2WW cards, of course CS is a no brainer. The problem is that Stifle-Wasteland-Daze decks can steal games from you with that mana base. That is not acceptable to me. With an emphasis on heavy W control, Negate is a clear winner to me.

[klaus]

I like Negate in conjunction with Spell Snare. So to me, the question is whether to play Counterspell or Negate. In more traditional lists with 6 fetches, 4 tundra, 2 black duals, and less 2WW cards, of course CS is a no brainer. The problem is that Stifle-Wasteland-Daze decks can steal games from you with that mana base. That is not acceptable to me. With an emphasis on heavy W control, Negate is a clear winner to me.

-2 Propaganda is a no brainer to me. You don't play mana denial (and no, those 3 wastelands don't count without a Crucible, which is also why I'd strongly suggest -1 Decree +1 Elspeth.
With the slots you gain by cutting propagandas you get room for EE #3 which is more than crucial without Vindicates and also for a Crucible, WOW you could even keep your 2nd Decree that way! :cool:

-1 Stifle +1 Spell Snare is a super move, too.

[dakkon]

If you don’t like Propaganda, then by all means cut it. Let me reiterate, I won our GPT with a list that was -1 Humility, -2 Propaganda, +1 EE, +1 Negate, +1 Spell Snare. I added Propaganda specifically for the GP after watching Vroman demolish Dredge and Goblins with it and we expected CB decks and creature orientated strategies to be in force. Propaganda’s effect was relevant in all but one match I played at the GP and it saved me from at least 2 g1 losses. It doesn’t matter if I don’t hard lock with mana denial. The card still buys me time and limits what my opponents can do if they want to attack my life total.

Yugioh Stifle was there to make room for the 3rd Perish in the board. I just couldn’t make that cut at the time and it’s not something I will do again. Stifle was amazing in testing and in tournament play. I’m keeping 3 in my 75.

Crucible was always a win more for me unless I’m playing against the mirror, in which case it is awesome. Builds with MD Vindicate and Crucible are certainly more capable of beating the mirror g1. I’m sacrificing that luxury to make my “favorable” matchups “fucking ridiculous.” You may argue the flexibility of vindicate may be good enough to get there but I’m not taking that chance in a 15 round tournament. Post board against the UWb mirror my deck will look very similar to builds posted here except I have access to Stifle (very good in the mirror) and a solid mana base. Negate edges out CS also because of this.

For something like a 20-40 man tournament I would stick with the -1 Humility, -2 Propaganda, +1 EE, +1 Negate, +1 Spell Snare configuration. I think what I'm trying to do with the deck is sound and worth exploring/testing.

[mossivo1986]

I'm curious to find out why people are not playing
4x Spell snare
in their model. To me unless your running counterbalance then you out to be running it. If I were running konsultants list I might not go 4x either, but outside of running vindicate or counterbalance I would most deffinately run it, because it either makes them force your spell snare, or lose their counterbalance or daze. Either of those cases opens up the door for you to expose their manabase or take care of the counterbalance with pleanty of time before they hit their next land drops. It makes me sad to see soo much counterbalance out their and people just thinking landstill plays around it.

At the gp I played against 2 players who actually kept their sowers in to counter elspeths and the like, along with adding in grips and the like to counter 3 drops so don't tell me you can play around it regularly because if they get it online theres a good chance you wont be winning the mirror if all goes semi-well for them.

Now granted yes I have beaten a deck while they had counterbalance on the table and yes I have beaten a counterbalance with landstill easily, but to me the most consistent method of doing so is through spell snare.

It topples:

Counterbalance
Goyf
Bob
Burning wish
Price of progress
Life from the loam
Spellcluster sprite

which to me are all tempo targets. They resolve them it = bad times. So im on the comitee for 4x spell snare. Hurah

[Doks]

because it either makes them force your spell snare, or lose their counterbalance or daze.

Forget it, sorry mate ;).

Well, I don't have that much experience with UW Landstill, but I don't think it needs Spell Snare as a 4 of that badly.

Decks that usually really need to run the full playset Spell Snares (Tempo Thresh, MUC, often Dreadstill) don't have a way to easily get rid of the CC2 threads in the format as UW Landstill should have (you can deal with resolved early beaters later with Humility/WoG/Swords and you have EE/Vindicate for Counterbalance).

So if I were to run UW Landstill I would go for good old Counterspell at first and then fill the optional / flexible slots with 2-X Spell Snare as it really is a good card as you stated.

[from Cairo]

because it either makes them force your spell snare, or lose their counterbalance or daze.
Epic Fail ;).


?

Mossivo is saying, Turn 2 they are casting Counterbalance, you are Spell Snaring, they are either 1) Forcing your Spell Snare, 2) Accepting their CB is Countered (IE losing their Counterbalance), or 3) Dazing your Spell Snare (if they were on the Play, leaving them vulnerable with 1 tapped land in play and a CB).

I'm missing the epic fail. Spell Snare is very good at answering Counterbalance, especially when on the draw, clearly it doesn't always get there but when it doesn't it nets you CA or Tempo both of which Landstill is happy to receive Turn 2.

[Doks]

I'm missing the epic fail. Spell Snare is very good at answering Counterbalance, especially when on the draw, clearly it doesn't always get there but when it doesn't it nets you CA or Tempo both of which Landstill is happy to receive Turn 2.

Aye then, now I get. I thought he was going to counter Daze with Spell Snare. Forgive me, it's late here.

However, I totally agree with what you wrote and with what he said after I misread the thing about Daze but still I can't imagine playing Spell Snare directly after 4x FoW before any other counter comes into consideration.

[mossivo1986]

Epic Fail ;).
Huh?

I might have explained it wrong and I apologize.

In my experiance any matchup that uses countertop has an extremely difficult time trying to get around spell snare, especially when their on the draw but also on the play to. You can't deny that its by far the best tempo anser you have access to them.


Well, I don't have that much experience with UW Landstill, but I don't think it needs Spell Snare as a 4 of that badly.

Removed a not nice comment.


Decks that usually really need to run the full playset Spell Snares (Tempo Thresh, MUC, often Dreadstill) don't have a way to easily get rid of the CC2 threads in the format as UW Landstill should have (you can deal with resolved early beaters later with Humility/WoG/Swords and you have EE/Vindicate for Counterbalance).

Not all versions of landstill run Vindicate so that leaves you with 3 more likely answers if you don't. Those answers are probobly, counterbalance, cunning wish into return to dust, or EE.

"If I were running konsultants list I might not go 4x either, but outside of running vindicate or counterbalance I would most deffinately run it"- mossivo1986

This is why i'm saying x4 is probobly the way to go. Since i'm not running vindicate I think it is essential to stop an early game shaft as counterbalance is/ can be. Also to note that since more and more decks are packing a mix of krosan grip / sower of temptation not only for the cards themselves but for the convenient CC they provide to shut down said deck, I promote an equal oppritunity counterspell at x4 to give you a 40% chance in your opener to stop their shinanigans.


So if I were to run UW Landstill I would go for good old Counterspell at first and then fill the optional / flexible slots with 2-X Spell Snare as it really is a good card as you stated.

You really don't fill flex slots with counterspells. Your counters are usually a solid 8-10 spots. As with your lands theres very little flexing you can do with them without totally scewing with how your deck plays.

[from Cairo]

Yea I think the main point everyone is agreeing on. Spell Snare is amazing, play 3-4 of them. Obviously Force of Will (4) and Counterspell (2-4, depending on build) are run in addition. The deck tends to have room for 10 or 11 permission spells, so it's not like Spell Snare is really taking room from debatable alternatives. Plus with a handful of flex slots that everyone has their preferences on, one could always run a couple other permission spells if that was what best complemented their build/style.

[Citrus-God]

because in his model its not the tempo from a creature that he cares about. He has enough removal. Its the bombs that he wants to take care of. Negate is a smart choice.

His removal sucks if a Counterbalance resolves. Huzzah! Considering you also said this, which brings me to another conclusion; Negate blows maindeck. It's narrow, that's all I have to say. You may say you can Negate a Counterbalance, but this only applies when you're on the play.

Considering you also said


I'm curious to find out why people are not playing
4x Spell snare
in their model. To me unless your running counterbalance then you out to be running it. If I were running konsultants list I might not go 4x either, but outside of running vindicate or counterbalance I would most deffinately run it, because it either makes them force your spell snare, or lose their counterbalance or daze. Either of those cases opens up the door for you to expose their manabase or take care of the counterbalance with pleanty of time before they hit their next land drops. It makes me sad to see soo much counterbalance out their and people just thinking landstill plays around it.

At the gp I played against 2 players who actually kept their sowers in to counter elspeths and the like, along with adding in grips and the like to counter 3 drops so don't tell me you can play around it regularly because if they get it online theres a good chance you wont be winning the mirror if all goes semi-well for them.

Now granted yes I have beaten a deck while they had counterbalance on the table and yes I have beaten a counterbalance with landstill easily, but to me the most consistent method of doing so is through spell snare.

It topples:

Counterbalance
Goyf
Bob
Burning wish
Price of progress
Life from the loam
Spellcluster sprite

which to me are all tempo targets. They resolve them it = bad times. So im on the comitee for 4x spell snare. Hurah


You can't be serious and make a claim that even for that build, Spell Snare justified as wrong while Negate is the optimal or even smart choice. If we were to discuss this at length, Negate sucks. If you can't to debate between Counterspell and Negate, you will still choose Counterspell because you already have a lot of cards to combat the early game and now needs some cards to fight the midgame, such as Counterspell.

[3duece]

While we're on the topic of spell snare, has anyone tried running a full 12 counters? I really want that fourth snare but I'm not sure where it could go. My current configuration looks like:

4 standstill
4 brainstorm
2 fact or fiction
4 counterspell
4 force of will
3 spell snare
4 swords to plowshares
3 wrath of god
2 elspeth, knight errant
1 decree of justice
1 humility
2 engineered explosives
2 sensei's divining top
1 crucible of worlds
1 academy ruins
1 tolaria west
1 dust bowl
4 mishra's factory
4 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
2 island
2 plains
4 tundra
1 underground sea/tropical island
1 scrubland/savannah

[Citrus-God]

I don't think you need a 4th Spell Snare, because you already have 7 cards to help fight the early game. Although, you could cut a Counterspell and that CoW for 2 Enlighten Tutors. By running Enlighten Tutor, it also allows you to run a more flexible "silver bullet" sideboard.

[3duece]

Hmm, that's tempting, especially since I have the foil enlightened tutors. But I really like that crucible as a back up plan, especially since not many people play it any more it can be really funny to drop and win the game with. But perhaps it's a no-go on that 4th snare, maybe my early game is good enough. Honestly this deck is really tight now, outside of completely switching it's style I'd say the only flex slots are the tops and crucible. I think I'm pretty satisfied.

[mossivo1986]

His removal sucks if a Counterbalance resolves. Huzzah! Considering you also said this, which brings me to another conclusion; Negate blows maindeck. It's narrow, that's all I have to say. You may say you can Negate a Counterbalance, but this only applies when you're on the play.

Considering you also said




You can't be serious and make a claim that even for that build, Spell Snare justified as wrong while Negate is the optimal or even smart choice. If we were to discuss this at length, Negate sucks. If you can't to debate between Counterspell and Negate, you will still choose Counterspell because you already have a lot of cards to combat the early game and now needs some cards to fight the midgame, such as Counterspell.

Im not making the claim for his deck to run it. I was saying it as a generalized approach for wish builds. I need to be more clear I apologize.

Duece: Your flex slots shouldn't be tops in my opinion.

[dakkon]

My removal sucks when CB resolves? Sure, you stopped StP, congrats. I still have WoG, Humility, planeswalkers, and EE. Sure CB builds may have 2 Sower or NO or Enforcer to counter 4 drops. I haven't had a problem pushing my 4cc threats through. If CB decks start to evolve and curve up to 3 and 4 consistently (as it appears from the GP) then I will certainly go up to 10 permission spells and tweak the board to fight it.

I play 3 Spell Snare mind you so it's not like I can't counter CB, Goyf, Confidant, and Hymn. You need another hard counter after FoW and Snare because good luck countering Ad Nauseam, planewalkers and other shit with Spell Snare. I like the 4/3/3 split for this reason. Some people play CS; I play Negate. I'm saying Negate is better than counterspell in my deck because it was designed that way. You want to say it sucks? Fine, but that's because it sucks in your build.

Seriously if putting infi time testing, putting up local tournament results, winning a GPT, and getting 39th at a GP (top 16 if I fken beat goblins) and I'm getting naysayers who won't even consider testing the deck, I don't see this archetype developing any further. You don't have to like my build but at least have the courtesy to test it, play against it, and contradict my results. Landstill needs to evolve to compete, so innovate, test, and repeat.

[Citrus-God]

My removal sucks when CB resolves? Sure, you stopped StP, congrats. I still have WoG, Humility, planeswalkers, and EE. Sure CB builds may have 2 Sower or NO or Enforcer to counter 4 drops. I haven't had a problem pushing my 4cc threats through. If CB decks start to evolve and curve up to 3 and 4 consistently (as it appears from the GP) then I will certainly go up to 10 permission spells and tweak the board to fight it.

Don't forget they also run maindeck Krosan Grips. If not that, they'll just tutor up EE via Trinket Mage and just blow up Elspeths and/or Humilities on the board.


I play 3 Spell Snare mind you so it's not like I can't counter CB, Goyf, Confidant, and Hymn. You need another hard counter after FoW and Snare because good luck countering Ad Nauseam, planewalkers and other shit with Spell Snare. I like the 4/3/3 split for this reason. Some people play CS; I play Negate.

Counterspell is a hard counter. I already have enough counters to counter the small early game plays like Dark Confidant, Goyf and CB and such. I just want to maximize my late game power. It's like the argument of Mana Leak vs. Counterspell; the point of Landstill is to stall until the late game, where most of it's cards and heavy land drops go up value and therefore almost pushes you in the direction of an inevitable win. By running a card like Negate, it's only decent against a deck like control or combo, and will usually be eschewed post board for something else. If I were to play against Vial Goblins, I know Negate is the first card to come out. Had those been Counterspell, I would have kept them in.



I'm saying Negate is better than counterspell in my deck because it was designed that way. You want to say it sucks? Fine, but that's because it sucks in your build.

My build isn't that far off from yours at the moment.


Seriously if putting infi time testing, putting up local tournament results, winning a GPT, and getting 39th at a GP (top 16 if I fken beat goblins) and I'm getting naysayers who won't even consider testing the deck, I don't see this archetype developing any further.

Those naysayers are questioning you, so therefore you need to answer those question. If you have heard of the dialectic, I'm sure it fully applies to deckbuilding as well. Just because people are trying to refute you doesn't mean this archetype won't develop any further.


You don't have to like my build but at least have the courtesy to test it, play against it, and contradict my results.

If it becomes bigger, sure. I did test Thresh with Teeg before it became a major staple in sideboards.


Landstill needs to evolve to compete, so innovate, test, and repeat.

I've been doing this for the past 5 months.

[mossivo1986]

Don't forget they also run maindeck Krosan Grips. If not that, they'll just tutor up EE via Trinket Mage and just blow up Elspeths and/or Humilities on the board.



Counterspell is a hard counter. I already have enough counters to counter the small early game plays like Dark Confidant, Goyf and CB and such. I just want to maximize my late game power. It's like the argument of Mana Leak vs. Counterspell; the point of Landstill is to stall until the late game, where most of it's cards and heavy land drops go up value and therefore almost pushes you in the direction of an inevitable win. By running a card like Negate, it's only decent against a deck like control or combo, and will usually be eschewed post board for something else. If I were to play against Vial Goblins, I know Negate is the first card to come out. Had those been Counterspell, I would have kept them in.



My build isn't that far off from yours at the moment.



Those naysayers are questioning you, so therefore you need to answer those question. If you have heard of the dialectic, I'm sure it fully applies to deckbuilding as well. Just because people are trying to refute you doesn't mean this archetype won't develop any further.



If it becomes bigger, sure. I did test Thresh with Teeg before it became a major staple in sideboards.



I've been doing this for the past 5 months.

Ok I just want to point out that I am not saying that either one of your models will not/ do not work. Citrus its been a while since ive looked at your model, but I can deffinately see how Dakkon's build works. The only reason I brought up a discussion on Dakkon's is that there are some small kinks I see in its armor. As I said before I do believe there is a problem with the clunkiness. I ran his model through 3 decks and 2 of them always left me more mana hungry then the model I currently run. Now obviously theres a big difference in our models. Dif's model with my adjustments plays harder against a list of different metagame matchups. Where as Dakk's plays very hard against aggro matchups and sideboards into the control matchups. My model tends to win game 1's more often and stall out or landslide game 2. I generally have problems playing against merfolk/ ant/ armageddon stax/ and fae stompy. The biggest reasons for this is:
-a- merfolk requires tons of removal and you basicly have to overextend to kill vial.
-b- ant is pretty much 50-50 unless you run the goyf approach with balance and the like. This is why I dropped mages do to their sometimes good, sometimes bad feel.
-c- Stax matchups are just bad news for me. Arm has armageddon/ smokestacks for me to counter with 4 force of wills. or an incredibly timey vendillion or wish, which often don't happen with them running trinisphere/ sphere of resistance/ wasteland. Where as fae stompy runs equipment that is rediculously hard to take care of for me for some reason. Every time I get close to locking them out of their win they draw sword of light and shadow. I lost round 8 at the gp do to random vendillion clique removing SOLS and he draws another one off the top from a mulli to 5. It just sucks, and I have to deal with these being bad matchups and move on.

As for the rest of the format its basicly cake. aka
thresh
survival
anything countertop is ok
the mirror isnt terrible
aggro loam is awesome
ichorid is good
disruption deck aka b/w mono black/ eva green
tribal matchups are all pretty damn good even the ones with port/ wasteland.
sligh is pretty sweet too.

In the last x tournaments ive played in I've lost matches to the following decks.

4 tournaments
2 fae stompy "One side event, one trial
2 stax
2 RDW "Before I took dif's experimental list. I wasn't running 2 ajani either. This matchup is phenominally better since"

So realisticly the bad matchup is stax and the mirror. Both of which are 50-50 for regular landstill builds anyways.

[rockSTAR]

Don't forget they also run maindeck Krosan Grips. If not that, they'll just tutor up EE via Trinket Mage and just blow up Elspeths and/or Humilities on the board.


No Trinket under humility buddy ;)

[dakkon]

@Citrus
Your points are valid but please keep in mind the following. As I was testing and competing with the deck (the past year) VERY few people MD Grips. Higher caliber players MD Grips (or Grip) at the GP to have a competitive advantage over other CB decks. Should this become the norm, then I will adapt and MD Humility would not be as good. Has the established equilibrium changed, who knows? But up till the point of the GP, MD Humility has been great and gg in most cases.

I don't understand what you are saying about having enough counters to stop early threats like Goyf, Confidant, CB (that I understand). Are you using CS to stall into the midgame against aggro? That's a different strategy than what I'm proposing. In fact that is what I'm trying to avoid. I let the buggers resolve or StP them and then save my counters on things that wreck me. I have enough cards to stop anything with a P/T.

We both play Spell Snare so the question is really about Negate and that's where most people have a problem with my build. Negate and Spell Snare are both garbage against Goblins. I would rather have Stifle. CS is marginal at best. You then of course run into the problem of trying to leave UU open while trying to get WW to stabilize against a deck with ports and wastes. This is why I don't like CS against creature decks that play mana denial (the only way I think they can be competitive). My plan is to develop the W side of my mana base while living off an Island for BS and Standstill. I'm playing MWC. If you want CS to work for you, you will need to fetch an Island and play a Tundra in order to have CS up and WoG up. That is VERY difficult against Caplan's deck, TA, merfolk, and goblins. The 6 fetch, 6 duals mana base just cannot handle it when I tested it.

Combo and Control are the decks my deck is weak against because I'm heavy on removal. These are the matches where I WANT Negate. With 3 mana, I can play Negate and Spell Snare, perhaps even with FoW backup. Doubtful you can do that with CS unless you have 2 Island and a Tundra.

I mentioned before, storm combo is a tough matchup no matter what build you are running. I'm not wasting half my board for them and I leave them to the CB decks. I consider this match up unfavorable but I've been ~ 50/50 with them this past year. My board is dedicated against the mirror, Loam (the other deck with a strong late game plan), and dealing with problematic cards.

I do welcome questions and discussions. Some of you have been very helpful in that regard. I'm calling naysayers to those who simply say "this card sucks, play this card instead." That means either they have 1) tested the card in the deck's context but had opposite results (in which case post them, I'm very interested) or 2) they're thinking in a closed box.

Builds are by no means final. My current "model" has 4-6 slots that are always changing depending on the expected meta game and that's the deck I'm focusing on atm.

[dakkon]

Double posting this one is directed

@ mossivo
Stax and Enchantress are amongst the random decks that are problematic for LS. I really like elements in vroman’s list for that reason (you can find it on TMD and there’s a link for it a page or so back). He basically started off with mine and then took the “speedstill” approach and eschewed Brainstorm for Thirst. He also played MD Needles which have been amazing for him. I suggested Aura of Silence for him on the board and that card alone makes Stax, Enchantress, and even Combo better, and he was able to power it out quickly. He also has Chalice to boot. If he played my matchups, he would have been at least Top 16 for sure. However, his game in the mirror is hurt significantly without vindicate, planeswalkers, stifle, etc. I usually drop g1 to him and then win the next two. Nonetheless what he and I are trying to achieve are similar so I’ll be working on some sort of hybrid.

[Citrus-God]

@Citrus
Your points are valid but please keep in mind the following. As I was testing and competing with the deck (the past year) VERY few people MD Grips. Higher caliber players MD Grips (or Grip) at the GP to have a competitive advantage over other CB decks. Should this become the norm, then I will adapt and MD Humility would not be as good. Has the established equilibrium changed, who knows? But up till the point of the GP, MD Humility has been great and gg in most cases.

If you win more rounds at a tournament, you're more likely to play against higher caliber players anyway. Most of whom know how their decks work and made metagame adjustments.


I don't understand what you are saying about having enough counters to stop early threats like Goyf, Confidant, CB (that I understand). Are you using CS to stall into the midgame against aggro? That's a different strategy than what I'm proposing. In fact that is what I'm trying to avoid. I let the buggers resolve or StP them and then save my counters on things that wreck me. I have enough cards to stop anything with a P/T.

Counterspell is there to secure your midgame, is what I'm trying to say.


We both play Spell Snare so the question is really about Negate and that's where most people have a problem with my build. Negate and Spell Snare are both garbage against Goblins. I would rather have Stifle.

But Stifle sucks everywhere else. I would much rather take Negate over Stifle.


CS is marginal at best. You then of course run into the problem of trying to leave UU open while trying to get WW to stabilize against a deck with ports and wastes.

So you run more White sources.


This is why I don't like CS against creature decks that play mana denial (the only way I think they can be competitive). My plan is to develop the W side of my mana base while living off an Island for BS and Standstill. I'm playing MWC. If you want CS to work for you, you will need to fetch an Island and play a Tundra in order to have CS up and WoG up. That is VERY difficult against Caplan's deck, TA, merfolk, and goblins. The 6 fetch, 6 duals mana base just cannot handle it when I tested it.

I have a flawless track record against Caplan's deck at the moment. This is mainly attributed with my having only 4 Fetchlands in the deck. Blasphemous, I know. But I learned that if you use real lands instead of fetchlands, that in itself is enough to help avoid problems with Stifle and Trickbinds as well as Wastelands.


Combo and Control are the decks my deck is weak against because I'm heavy on removal. These are the matches where I WANT Negate. With 3 mana, I can play Negate and Spell Snare, perhaps even with FoW backup. Doubtful you can do that with CS unless you have 2 Island and a Tundra.

Even if you run Negate against combo, you still lose pre-board. Against Control, it is clearly no doubt that Negate holds it's value.


I mentioned before, storm combo is a tough matchup no matter what build you are running. I'm not wasting half my board for them and I leave them to the CB decks. I consider this match up unfavorable but I've been ~ 50/50 with them this past year. My board is dedicated against the mirror, Loam (the other deck with a strong late game plan), and dealing with problematic cards.

But that's what a sideboard is for.


I do welcome questions and discussions. Some of you have been very helpful in that regard. I'm calling naysayers to those who simply say "this card sucks, play this card instead." That means either they have 1) tested the card in the deck's context but had opposite results (in which case post them, I'm very interested) or 2) they're thinking in a closed box.

It's also a way people question you. It's just their way of refuting Negate. You, in this case, should defend it or agree with them.


Builds are by no means final. My current "model" has 4-6 slots that are always changing depending on the expected meta game and that's the deck I'm focusing on atm.

There is no such thing as a "final build" and if there is, it will change within 2 weeks to a month at most.

@Mossivo1986: Yes, but my Landstill builds are ever changing. I played Cunning Wish for around 4 months now. The current build I play now is something I will not be sharing in this thread (go ahead and PM for it though). I don't ever expect myself to play my current build for longer than 1-2 months. But my philosophy with Landstill remains the same; answer early game threats, make card advantage and make your late game an inevitable win for you. This is also why I still play cards like Fact or Fiction and 3 Wrath of Gods.

[Mister Agent]

I think Negate is marginal at best compared to Counterspell. I utilize counterspell usually around turn 3 anyway and as the clock turns counterspell gets incrementally stronger. Obtaining two blue sources by the third turn isn't really hard especially when you play with manabase fixers like E. dragon and blue fetchlands.

That said, you have spell snare and force of will for the early game and then you have counterspell and force of will for the mid to late game. That's plenty to go around.

[Doks]

I would still count Spell Snare for the mid-late game, too, as it keeps it strength.
It's cheaper to snare a CB than wasting an EE for it and I'd prefer to save the WoG/EE for Mongoose and snare the Goyf instead.

It not only gains you tempo but saves you the "better" overall solutions for when you really need them.

[mossivo1986]

"counterspell gets incrementally stronger" - Mister Agent

I strongly disagree with that statement. Counterspell has the same effectiveness early game as it does late game. I would agree that it becomes fundamentally easier to cast later game then early and thus in appearance is stronger, but to me minus the exception of come into play effects/ instants/ sorcery counterspell isn't truly any better then vindicate. This to me is because vindicate has the option to not only be a reaction based card, but it can also be proactive which are things that Landstill needs. cards like Vindicate, Vendillion clique, spell snare. They are all extremely powerful tools that also allow landstill to gain CA tempo quicker and more efficiently then say Counterspell which is at best a reactive 1-1 that is outshined by the second best counter in the format "spell snare" 10 fold.

Now for your argument against Negate. Negate's weakness is its lack of creature targeting. It is substantially better for landstills mana curver but it still does the same basic principle that counterspell has when it comes down to a reactive 1-1. I don't like either choice and I really encourage all landstill players to stay away from 2 drops as much as possible. EE should basicly be the only 2 drop in your deck other then Standstill.

[Jak]

Counterspell gets better as the stuff it counters gets better. Countering a second turn Piledriver is a lot weaker than a fifth turn SGC. It does get stronger later in the game.

Vendillion Clique is weak in Landstill. In a deck like Threshold, it is a nice disruption card that adds a 3 power flier to your clock. In Landstill, the body isn't really relevant, it just gives the opponent something to target with their removal. The effect isn't even that powerful. Thoughtseizing them and then making them draw is pretty weak at 3 mana.

Negate sucks. Well, it doesn't suck but when there is Counterspell in the format for the same mana, it sucks. Build your mana base correctly, fetch correctly, and mulligan correctly will allow you to get UU on turn two and WW on turn four.

[Mister Agent]

Well I am glad some people still agree with me after not being able to post that much on here. Props to Jak.

Anyway, back on topic.

@Mossivo: I wasn't really suggesting that Counterspell was a bad early game card. Of course, counterspell is good in the early game if you have enough blue. However, against a deck like countertop; I'd rather have spell snare in the early game compared to counterspell. Especially, when you can still leave a land open for a daze when your responding to either a counterbalance or tarmogoyf. You don't really have a ton of room to maneuver around when your playing against good threshold players.

As for negate, you can pretty much counter most of the primary spells and more with spell snare. Especially with all of those playable two cc cards in this format spell snare just seems more practical to contemplate.

[mossivo1986]

Counterspell gets better as the stuff it counters gets better. Countering a second turn Piledriver is a lot weaker than a fifth turn SGC. It does get stronger later in the game.

That example is poor because of the efficiency of spells in legacy. Game breaking spells in this format generally cost 4cc or less to be truly playable. Realistically if counterspell is most powerful late game then it would be a horrid choice to play in this metagame where spell snare IS the second best counter in the format because of the number of threats with cc4 or less games do not have the same inevitability that they once had. So counterspell in essence would be a poor choice to play, especially in a meta full of wasteland/ stifle/ blood moon "effects/ sinkhole that happen all on t1-2-3.



Vendillion Clique is weak in Landstill. In a deck like Threshold, it is a nice disruption card that adds a 3 power flier to your clock. In Landstill, the body isn't really relevant, it just gives the opponent something to target with their removal. The effect isn't even that powerful. Thoughtseizing them and then making them draw is pretty weak at 3 mana.

Nice glass half-empty approach. You bother to drown out the card but you only briefly outline why said card could actually be slightly good. Anyone who plays landstill with ANY regularity understands why vendillion is impressive and its really throwing the card under a bus to say that its just another removable body/bad thoughtseize. You obviously haven't tested it at all, and I would really recommend you remove your head from ass before stating that its strictly bad for this archtype/meta.



Negate sucks. Well, it doesn't suck but when there is Counterspell in the format for the same mana, it sucks. Build your mana base correctly, fetch correctly, and mulligan correctly will allow you to get UU on turn two and WW on turn four.[/QUOTE]

Negate doesn't suck for dakkon's deck because of the extra removal he runs to deal with the lack of hard creature counter he has. Negate is easier on his curve so that he doesn't have problems with stifle/wasteland/blood moon/ vindicate/sinkhole ect. For a quick referance its post 1329.

[Jak]

When was I disputing Spell Snare? I think it SHOULD be run. If you didn't understand that well, I will repeat. Counterspell is better than Negate. I don't care if you run more removal. That is like saying you want to play Duress over Thoughtseize because you run sooo much removal. Build a better mana base if you can't get to the UU.

Okay, tell me what Vendillion clique does in Landstill. I really want to hear why you think it is so good. Do you play it at instant speed to block an attacker? Do you play it after they draw to get rid of their Goyf? What?

[dakkon]

I apologize. Snarkiness removed.

@Jak
In mono blue, without a doubt CS is better than Negate. I'm playing MWC. Why on earth would CS be better than Negate in MWC? This discussion may be better suited for that thread. Saying "you don't care" means you are ignoring my testing and performance results and you are also refusing to collect your own data. I'm defending the card because it's been working well for me. I'm not saying you can't design a mana base that can support UU and WW consistently when facing mana denial aggro; I'm just taking another approach.

Duress vs Thoughtseize? As a vintage player, I played Duress over Thoughtseize when Gush was legal. You know why? Because TS sucks with Fastbond. So yes, a card can have its "drawback" alleviated depending on the deck.

[Nihil Credo]

Just a friendly reminder to keep your heads cool while discussing what particular type of fantasy-themed collectible gaming card to stick in your favourite pile of fantasy-themed collectible gaming cards.

[mossivo1986]

When was I disputing Spell Snare? I think it SHOULD be run. If you didn't understand that well, I will repeat. Counterspell is better than Negate. I don't care if you run more removal. That is like saying you want to play Duress over Thoughtseize because you run sooo much removal. Build a better mana base if you can't get to the UU.

Okay, tell me what Vendillion clique does in Landstill. I really want to hear why you think it is so good. Do you play it at instant speed to block an attacker? Do you play it after they draw to get rid of their Goyf? What?

There are a variety of uses for Vendillion. I encourage you to test extensively in permission slots or utility slots and see for yourself. It's also a random game winner based on post board lack of removal. It's also easily sideable if you need it to be against decks that run mogg fanatic or spot removal like fire/ice.

[Jak]

I apologize. Snarkiness removed.

@Jak
In mono blue, without a doubt CS is better than Negate. I'm playing MWC. Why on earth would CS be better than Negate in MWC? This discussion may be better suited for that thread. Saying "you don't care" means you are ignoring my testing and performance results and you are also refusing to collect your own data. I'm defending the card because it's been working well for me. I'm not saying you can't design a mana base that can support UU and WW consistently when facing mana denial aggro; I'm just taking another approach.

Duress vs Thoughtseize? As a vintage player, I played Duress over Thoughtseize when Gush was legal. You know why? Because TS sucks with Fastbond. So yes, a card can have its "drawback" alleviated depending on the deck.

If your deck is MWC... please go post in a different thread then. Anyway, I looked at your list and your mana base could easily be made to support it. However, you want to take a different approach :confused:

This is Legacy where creatures are much more important and that is why having Counterspell over Negate is huge. But like you said, your deck isn't Landstill so whatever.

Mossivo

There are a variety of uses for Vendillion. I encourage you to test extensively in permission slots or utility slots and see for yourself. It's also a random game winner based on post board lack of removal. It's also easily sideable if you need it to be against decks that run mogg fanatic or spot removal like fire/ice.

I have tested it and it was just lacking. I would rather run a better win condition or I would rather run better disruption. It is that simple. Hell, I would run Esper Charm over it.

[Citrus-God]

There are a variety of uses for Vendillion. I encourage you to test extensively in permission slots or utility slots and see for yourself. It's also a random game winner based on post board lack of removal. It's also easily sideable if you need it to be against decks that run mogg fanatic or spot removal like fire/ice.

Clique is proactive disruption, which is exactly why it cant be ran over Counterspell in Landstill. Clique, if anything, should only be ran in addition to 3 Spell Snares/Counterspells and 4 Force of Wills.

[Benie Bederios]

Hi,

I on a completly other note... I tested yersterday with my Wish build against Merfolk. The intresting part was that we both sided out our Standstills...

I play a classic Wis MD with 24 lands with 4 Factory, Dustbowl, Tolaria West and Academy Ruins. One Dragon and 2 Decree of Justice.

My reason for boarding it out, it forces me to try and stop a turn 1 AEther Vial or having 4 dead cards in my hand. On top of that has this deck enough other ways of gaining card-advantage, Wrath of God, EE.

His reasoning was, that I could play under Standstill better then he( He played 4 Vials, 4 Wastes and 3 Factories.

My exact boarding was -4 Standstill, -1 Counterspell, +3 Engineerd Plague( only room for 2) +2 Ajani Goldmane.

How would you guys board?

BB

[klaus]

My exact boarding was -4 Standstill, -1 Counterspell, +3 Engineerd Plague( only room for 2) +2 Ajani Goldmane.

How would you guys board?

BB

Just like you did. You could leave one random Standstill in for when you have wrath-cleared the board on turn 12 to maintain your dominant position.
-4 SS is just fine though.

[NQN]

I keep standstills in in nearly every matchup. It´s our best card and you should always keep 2-3 in. Like geoff said, I´d side out Forces and Snares for as much removal as you can get. For reference, here´s my list:
// Lands
1 [R] Scrubland
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
2 [OV] Plains
2 [U] Underground Sea
4 [A] Tundra
3 [6E] Island (3)
1 [10E] Swamp (2)

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [AT] Swords to Plowshares
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 [AP] Vindicate
1 [7E] Counterspell
2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [MR] Thirst for Knowledge

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 2 [6E] Perish
SB: 4 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
SB: 3 Open Slot

F.E. against merrows I´d side like this: -4 Force -1 CS -2 Relic -1 Snare + 4 PLagues +4 Finks

[mossivo1986]

I keep standstills in in nearly every matchup. It´s our best card and you should always keep 2-3 in. Like geoff said, I´d side out Forces and Snares for as much removal as you can get. For reference, here´s my list:
// Lands
1 [R] Scrubland
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
2 [OV] Plains
2 [U] Underground Sea
4 [A] Tundra
3 [6E] Island (3)
1 [10E] Swamp (2)

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [AT] Swords to Plowshares
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 [AP] Vindicate
1 [7E] Counterspell
2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [MR] Thirst for Knowledge

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 2 [6E] Perish
SB: 4 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
SB: 3 Open Slot

F.E. against merrows I´d side like this: -4 Force -1 CS -2 Relic -1 Snare + 4 PLagues +4 Finks

I really like your build. Though is finks > ajani? in your opinion.

[Ranarion]

After a long time where I didn't play any tournaments I changed my decklist. I was very happy with the old one but there are some new cards which have to be played but I'm not very happy with it. First, the list:

Lands (23):
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Dust Bowl
1 Academy Ruins
1 Tolaria West

More Mana + win (2):
1 Eternal Dragon
1 Crucible of Worlds

Win (4):
2 Decree of Justice
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Draw (8):
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill

Counter (9):
2 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

Removal (14):
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Wrath of God
2 Vindicate
2 Humility

Sideboard (15):
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Runed Halo
2 Ajani Goldmane
4 Meddling Mage

(Old decklist found here (http://www.deckcheck.net//deck.php?id=18101))

1. The manabase
With MD Vindicate I need black mana almost every game and it's not a little splash for SB Extirpate and a third colour for Extirpate. The manabase looks very fragile and I'm playing only 23 lands. The old one has seven basic lands and 24 lands. I played against Dragon Stompy and some kind of mana denial fish (Stifle, Wasteland and Extirpate) and did not have any problems. That was very cool but now i fear to be colourscrewed too often only by my own bad manabase.

2. Vindicate
I only wished for Return to Dust (and sometimes Extirpate) so I decided to play without a wishboard to have a better use of my sideboard. Because of the lack of artifact and enchantment removal I added Vindicate. Playing Vindicate on a problematic Artifact/Enchantment sounds cooler than wishing for a four-mana card. But Vindicate requires a heavier black-splash and I want to play a basic Swamp because Vindicate is my only solution against a pre-board resolved Blood Moon.

3. Blue cards
Only 17 left (over twenty in the old list). It makes FoW suck.

4. Crucible, Eternal Dragon, DoJ and Elspeth
In my opinion DoJ and Elspeth are too good to play only one but with Dragon and Crucible as alternative winoptions its way too much. I don't want to cut Dragon and Crucible because my manabase would be more fragile.

Any suggestments to improve this list? I want to be prepared against Counterbalance, manadenial and random aggro-decks in the MD. Against Combo, Loam and Survival it should be enough to play something in SB. I think Ichorid, Sui and Goblins aren't played much in my meta (Iserlohn, Germany).

[Citrus-God]

Another way to answer Blood Moon is to run a basic Plains, a basic Island and have a non basic in play, that way, you can cast EE for 3 to destroy Blood Moon.

[mossivo1986]

Another way to answer Blood Moon is to run a basic Plains, a basic Island and have a non basic in play, that way, you can cast EE for 3 to destroy Blood Moon.

Thats one of those plays that makes you smile alittle as a landstill player.

The other one would be Relic'ing your own instant
aka
Fof
Swords
Force of will
spell snare. ect. ect.

and then wishing for it. That ALWAYS is fun to do to mantain control of a game. It's soo funny to do.

or just the play on my signature. I just did it for the first time recently. It was the ballz.

[Citrus-God]

Thats one of those plays that makes you smile alittle as a landstill player.

Obv next to my signature

Mine is use Ajani to make 20+/20+ token.

[mossivo1986]

lol's Yeah that can be cute. I've won once like that and it was funny that they could just do nothing, but loose. haha.

[rockout]

I went 4-2 placing 10th at the 4x Tropical Island event at Off the Wall Games Hadley MA.

Decklist: I have how I sbed for each round if you want to see it.

// Lands
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [UNH] Plains
2 [UNH] Island
1 [UNH] Swamp
3 Tundra
2 [B] Underground Sea
1 [B] Scrubland
3 [JGC] Mishra's Factory
3 [REW] Wasteland
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins

// Creatures
1 [PR] Eternal Dragon
1 [MOR] Vendilion Clique - It was only relevant against landstill, but it earned its 1-of spot

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
3 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [JGC] Counterspell
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [DIS] Spell Snare - Pure buttsecks
3 [AP] Vindicate - A little clunky at the tournament but always good
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
2 [ALA] Elspeth Knight-Errant
2 [REW] Wrath of God
1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds - So good as a 1-of
1 [IN] Fact or Fiction - Did you ever know your my hero?

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [JGC] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [B] Blue Elemental Blast - Good call. First 3 rounds were against red.
SB: 3 [FNM] Engineered Plague
SB: 2 [TE] Perish - No relevant once
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [FD] Vedalken Shackles - The 4th plague. It's amazing against merfolk.

Round 1: Justin aka Sunshine Mono Red Burn 1-2
Game 1: He leads with chain chain and I go the beatdown route with a mishra. I vindictae/wasteland him down to 0 lands and I feel confident. I try to cast an Elspeth with a single white mana. Game ends 0-7 life.
Game 2: I win with double mage on Rift bolt and Fireblast and lots of counter magic.
Game 3: I probably shouldn't have countered 2x PoP which would have totaled 5 damage if I fetched and failed to find a land. I only saw 1 piece of hate. If I hate drawn another blast I might have gotten there.

Round 2: I forget his name Dragonstompy 2-0
Game 1: I open up fetch land, tundra, snare, e dragon, stp and stuff. I get there on a turn 1 mountain pass on my opponents end. He drops Trinisphere and I am able to play around it.
Game 2: I counter/destroy 6 moon effects. Elspeth beats.

Round 3: Caleb 4c Survival 2-1
Game 1: He chains discard until I am holding 2 land and proceeds to draw 7 land in a row and I chain standstills.
Game 2: I go the beats route and try to win fast. Choke slows me down. I lose with him at 6.
Game 3: He chains discard again and resolves a choke + magus. I rip the swamp like a champ for my 3rd untapped land drop ee and clear his board. I fof at one point and see bs x 2, stp? land and elspeth. He puts elspeth by itself and I later chain bs into put back to land, cycle e dragon, bs for the snare to stop survival and seal the game.
He was beating himself up during most of the games saying "play mistake" and such so no clue.

Round 4: Geoff "Mother Fucking" Smelski I'll be honest I was a little scared but knew this would not be easy. He was playing [B]Mono-Red Landstill.
Game 1: We joke back and forth about this game taking forever and he drops turn 1 lackey. I almost shit a brick. The look on my face must have been priceless. Thank god I mulliganed and kept a stp hand. He does what goblins do best g1. Win.
Game 2: I drop t2 standstill and he drops 9 straight land and think to myself, "fuck he transformed into like monored burn." He eot grips a factory and I discard 2 land. He plays chief + pile driver. I don't blast either because I figured I would be ok behind a factory + plague. I try to go for standstill and he grips my plague in response. He chains ringleader, into matron, matron guys. I rip shackles and take warchief and block some dudes, swords another and get there with a decree for 6 to block his onslaught and swing with his own warchief.
Game 3: I board out vindicate like a retard but more on that later. I just remember at one point him chaining ringleaders like it was his job off double gauntlet of might. I stabilize behind some luck and we go to top deck mode and he needs to draw a banefire to finish me. I'm gripping double cs and he says "I'm at one," I honestly thought he said, "I won." So I showed him my hand and he says, "no." I feel like a retard but hey it happens I guess. I there with elspeth and man lands.

Round 5: Originally merfolk but there was a mispair so I got repaired against Jared (Jaynel) playing some jank 5c survival I'd never seen before. 1-2
Game 1: I force a t1 imp, he plays t2 imp and rides it to the win with little resistance from me.
Game 2: I keep a hand of double relic, swamp, and other stuff that costs blue/white. My board ends up being mage, relic x 2, plague x 2 and I still almost lose.
Game 3: I force a t1 unmask to save mage and he drops imp. I play mage naming therapy and lost my ee @ 0 (holding another ee) to ancient grudge. I didn't draw the hate but atleast the games were fun and interactive. Jared is definitely a strong magic player.

Round 6: I think his name is brent. He goes to UMass and played landstill with jace instead of fof, vindicate, ajani main deck, cb sb, no e dragon and no crucible. 2-0
Game 1: I enjoy playing the mirror more than any other match in match. These matches show it. He spellsnares a t2 standstill, good thing because I was slow playing a factory. I draw off 3 standstills because of double mishra.
Game 2: I swords his factory and we stall the board with 2 of his mages naming swords/elspeth and my mage naming wrath with 4 tokens on the board. He swing into me and I kill the mage naming elspeth and proceed to draw "5" cards off a fof after the board was clear. 1st pile: snare x 2, stp, land 2nd pile: ee. I have ruins in play and eot put ee on top to kill his jace and win through a top war. At one point I had triple force, double cs, double snare. Sorry, I drew like a champ.

I finished 10th. No 12 pointers made top 8. It was a 51 person tournament.

Slops:
No top 8 for team awesome.
Pat losing to burn playing staxs.
Getting to Hadley before the store actually opened.
Getting told that I'll get punched in the face if I ever said, "Must be nice ever again," Psht fuck you buddy MUST BE NICE.
Telling people I quit playing landstill. I thought long and hard about it.

Props:
Getting sowers/mutavaults (1 foil)/oaths/orchards/null rods
winning an ebay auction while driving down the highway
going 4-2 with a deck I was going to stop playing. I played Geoff, it was a sign from the landstill gods saying to me, "Son, standstill will always be the best draw engine in legacy."
Kevin another solid store
Jaynel and I finishing 9th and 10th respectively
Switching to blue blast instead of halo for this tournament and it being AMAZING.
Brian for splitting in top 4.

[rbpong721]

Hello everyone, I've been reading this thread quite a bit for a long time and my deck is doing fairly well. I have a couple of questions though. Regarding the land base, would replacing Tundra with Hallowed Fountain be fine? Or would that life loss and come into play tapped by crucial?

Also, how do you handle rogue decks, for example a deck that stacks "cannot be the target of spells or abilites" creatures. For example: Silhana Ledge Walker or Troll Ascetic? Also, any advice against a new scepter/chant cb deck that's been around for a bit?

[Citrus-God]

Hello everyone, I've been reading this thread quite a bit for a long time and my deck is doing fairly well. I have a couple of questions though. Regarding the land base, would replacing Tundra with Hallowed Fountain be fine? Or would that life loss and come into play tapped by crucial?

The lifeloss matters. But if you're asking if you replace a Tundra with a Fountain, that would be fine. Two might be stretching it though.


Also, how do you handle rogue decks, for example a deck that stacks "cannot be the target of spells or abilites" creatures. For example: Silhana Ledge Walker or Troll Ascetic?

Chainer's Edict, Perish, Humility and Wrath of God.


Also, any advice against a new scepter/chant cb deck that's been around for a bit?

Just outplay them. It's control vs. control. Also, run board Krosan Grips in against those decks.


@Rockout: That 1-of FoF makes me cringe.

[rbpong721]

The lifeloss matters. But if you're asking if you replace a Tundra with a Fountain, that would be fine. Two might be stretching it though.



Chainer's Edict, Perish, Humility and Wrath of God.



Just outplay them. It's control vs. control. Also, run board Krosan Grips in against those decks.


@Rockout: That 1-of FoF makes me cringe.

So you would run FoF as a 4 of? or at least fit 3 in there?

[rockout]

@Citrus-God: Dude you have no idea. I have been playing 3 fof and 3 bs for so long but I saw fof in every survival game, every goblins game, twice against burn, and twice against ds. So, I'll keep it at 1 fof 1 clique for now.

@rbpong721: Not having tundras forces you to fetch basics more often against decks that it would matter like goblins, burn and so on. You can almost look at hallowed fountain as helping you. Kicking you in the but when you want to fetch a "tundra." Rogue decks? Vindicate there lands and board in perish.

[Citrus-God]

@Citrus-God: Dude you have no idea. I have been playing 3 fof and 3 bs for so long but I saw fof in every survival game, every goblins game, twice against burn, and twice against ds. So, I'll keep it at 1 fof 1 clique for now.

It's funny that you mentioned that. I recently cut Counterspells so that I could run Cunning Wishes again. I still have Spell Snares maindecked of course. While playtesting it, I realized how often I won the game whenever I resolved an FoF and chained into more ridiculous crap. So I threw in a 3rd copy. Now my blue suite is 4 BS, 4 Standstill, 3 FoF (with a 4th one in the board to wish for), 3 Spell Snare, 4 FoW and 3 Cunning Wish. Oh, my god, my deck went busted in testing. Also, this is how I dig for my protection spells, removal, counters and Elspeth. All those together makes whatever bomb I drop into a game ending bomb.

[mossivo1986]

It's funny that you mentioned that. I recently cut Counterspells so that I could run Cunning Wishes again. I still have Spell Snares maindecked of course. While playtesting it, I realized how often I won the game whenever I resolved an FoF and chained into more ridiculous crap. So I threw in a 3rd copy. Now my blue suite is 4 BS, 4 Standstill, 3 FoF (with a 4th one in the board to wish for), 3 Spell Snare, 4 FoW and 3 Cunning Wish. Oh, my god, my deck went busted in testing. Also, this is how I dig for my protection spells, removal, counters and Elspeth. All those together makes whatever bomb I drop into a game ending bomb.

I know you disagree with me, but im still heaping on you for that 4th spell snare. It makes life soo nice. Especially when you counter multiple bobs/ teegs ect.

[rockout]

Sadly, two of my fofs against goblins on sunday and a fof against dragonstompy 2 weeks ago results in a total of 4 + 3 + 5 = 12 lands but yes fof usually spells gg in most chases.

[rockout]

I can't see ever dropping below 3 counterspell. How the heck do you win counter wars?

They play a spell tapping out and you just counterspell it away with the only resistence being force and then you force their force and drop elspeth in their mouth.

[Citrus-God]

I know you disagree with me, but im still heaping on you for that 4th spell snare. It makes life soo nice. Especially when you counter multiple bobs/ teegs ect.

I will only ever disagree with you if you said that I should replace Counterspell with Negate.


I can't see ever dropping below 3 counterspell. How the heck do you win counter wars?

I start the first one with an FoF which I let them counter. Then I Cunning Wish for Extirpate.

[rockout]

I think if I was running more wraths and humility main deck I would care less about creatures and run negate.

[Citrus-God]

I think if I was running more wraths and humility main deck I would care less about creatures and run negate.

I still run 2 Humilities and 3 Wraths, and I still use my Counterspells to counter Goyfs and Mongeese late game. Had those Counterspells been Negates, I think I would have died. And believe me, against NLU, it's nothing but grueling attrition wars; the topdeck wars matter at this point.

[rockout]

I still run 2 Humilities and 3 Wraths, and I still use my Counterspells to counter Goyfs and Mongeese late game. Had those Counterspells been Negates, I think I would have died. And believe me, against NLU, it's nothing but grueling attrition wars; the topdeck wars matter at this point.

That is true. Good point.

@Joel: Yes, you finally convinced me to run blasts out of the board. The local meta has been shifting heavy to green/red and it's been pissing me off because I hate losing to goblins/goyf sligh/burn/dragonstompy.

[Citrus-God]

That is true. Good point.

@Joel: Yes, you finally convinced me to run blasts out of the board. The local meta has been shifting heavy to green/red and it's been pissing me off because I hate losing to goblins/goyf sligh/burn/dragonstompy.

Shouldn't you be running Circle of Protection: Red then? It's way better than BEBs if you're concentrating on beating those decks. Against Dragon Stompy, you just need 1 White source under Blood Moon to operate with it, against Goyf Sligh and Burn it protects you from Price of Progress and Vexing Shushers can't do much against your CoP: Red and against Vial Goblins, this let's you keep Standstills in post-board.

[mossivo1986]

Shouldn't you be running Circle of Protection: Red then? It's way better than BEBs if you're concentrating on beating those decks. Against Dragon Stompy, you just need 1 White source under Blood Moon to operate with it, against Goyf Sligh and Burn it protects you from Price of Progress and Vexing Shushers can't do much against your CoP: Red and against Vial Goblins, this let's you keep Standstills in post-board.

Ew I dont agree with that. It doesnt stop lacker or burning wish. 2 cards youd rather disrupt and win games then prevent and lose them. cop green is handy because it stops goyf/goose/genitus and it single handedly does it as a random 1 of. But cop red to me is good under restrictions, those restrictions being that it doesnt do what you truly want it to do. Stop red. Blue elemental blast stops red. Stops red dead. It should be relabelled S.R.D.


BTW I Quote you rockout. Deal with it. :)

p.s. I never got my shiny red tool box A..

[Citrus-God]

Ew I dont agree with that. It doesnt stop lacker or burning wish.

Burning Wish isn't a concern because he didn't mention Aggro Loam being a problem. Lackey gets answered by EE, Swords and FoW. You have 11 cards that can end up in your opening just to answer Lackey.

2 cards youd rather disrupt and win games then prevent and lose them.



cop green is handy because it stops goyf/goose/genitus and it single handedly does it as a random 1 of.

From what I've seen, CoP: Red is only against Threshold. CoP: Red is at least versatile in that metagame.


But cop red to me is good under restrictions, those restrictions being that it doesnt do what you truly want it to do.

It's better against Dragon Stompy, it's better against Goyf Sligh, it's arguably better against Vial Goblins. If they see Vindicate maindeck, they won't be boarding in Krosan Grips, meaning this is your chance to board in an Enchantment. And even if they did, they've slowed down their own deck just to get even against you.

[quote]Stop red. Blue elemental blast stops red. Stops red dead. It should be relabelled S.R.D./QUOTE]

Doesn't stop the opponent from playing Vexing Shusher, then proceeding to play Price of Progress.

[mossivo1986]

[QUOTE=Citrus-God;332530]Burning Wish isn't a concern because he didn't mention Aggro Loam being a problem. Lackey gets answered by EE, Swords and FoW. You have 11 cards that can end up in your opening just to answer Lackey.

2 cards youd rather disrupt and win games then prevent and lose them.


If your on the draw against goblins and they see lackey here are your answers:

force
swords

on the play your answers go up to

ee
force
swords
mishra

but the safest answers without any doubt are

swords
blast

and thats without being on the play or the draw mattering. This also allows you to save your ee for vial, as well as force for ringleader. Ringleader IS the gamebreaker for them, and countering that wins you the game MOST games.


From what I've seen, CoP: Red is only against Threshold. CoP: Red is at least versatile in that metagame.

A bit confused. Clarify colors for me.



It's better against Dragon Stompy, it's better against Goyf Sligh, it's arguably better against Vial Goblins. If they see Vindicate maindeck, they won't be boarding in Krosan Grips, meaning this is your chance to board in an Enchantment. And even if they did, they've slowed down their own deck just to get even against you.


Your right cop red is better then cop green against goyf sligh, for the most part because it stops the burn and some of their creatures. Depending on the model this makes a huge difference compared to cop green. As for blast I would still take blast ahead of this because atleast your seeing the information they have in hand even if its there, I would rather know what im up against then lack information and let it barrage me because they see a pithing needle.


Stop red. Blue elemental blast stops red. Stops red dead. It should be relabelled S.R.D.


Doesn't stop the opponent from playing Vexing Shusher, then proceeding to play Price of Progress.

I havent seen shusher since I saw it in survival mod's a while back.

[Citrus-God]

If your on the draw against goblins and they see lackey here are your answers:

force
swords

on the play your answers go up to

ee
force
swords
mishra

but the safest answers without any doubt are

swords
blast

and thats without being on the play or the draw mattering. This also allows you to save your ee for vial, as well as force for ringleader. Ringleader IS the gamebreaker for them, and countering that wins you the game MOST games.

They only run 4 Lackeys. Why are you concerned by this? There are only 4 copies of Lackeys. At least if they resolved Vial and you have CoP: Red instead of BEB, you could stall until you find an EE or Vindicate to destroy the AEther Vial.



A bit confused. Clarify colors for me.

I meant to say only CoP: G is good against decks like Threshold... in fact, I think that's all it is good against; Threshold.



Your right cop red is better then cop green against goyf sligh, for the most part because it stops the burn and some of their creatures.

And Burn, and Dragon Stompy.


As for blast I would still take blast ahead of this because atleast your seeing the information they have in hand even if its there, I would rather know what im up against then lack information and let it barrage me because they see a pithing needle.

Why would they board a reactive card against a reactive deck? If they board needle against you, just cast Vindicate and/or EE and keep it off the board. If they board Krosan Grip against you, they have no library manipulation; just play more copies of CoP: R to get preemptively answer Grip and stall until you can hardcast a DoJ for 8 or resolve an Ajani.


I havent seen shusher since I saw it in survival mod's a while back.

You obviously havent crashed into Vial Goblins and Sligh galore.

[mossivo1986]

They only run 4 Lackeys. Why are you concerned by this? There are only 4 copies of Lackeys. At least if they resolved Vial and you have CoP: Red instead of BEB, you could stall until you find an EE or Vindicate to destroy the AEther Vial.

I often find myself on the draw against goblins with t1 lackey. Call me random, but I like to keep things on the + side if I can.



I meant to say only CoP: G is good against decks like Threshold... in fact, I think that's all it is good against; Threshold.


and survival/ elves/ anything running goyf is reason for it to be sideboarded in minus the mirror.



And Burn, and Dragon Stompy.

Ill explain burn later, as for d stompy yes I agree its good against them. Funny thing I saw pithing needle in a couple of d stompy lists in recent tourney experiance. Im not saying its good, im saying its there. I also have seen it relentlesly in burn list sb's.



Why would they board a reactive card against a reactive deck? If they board needle against you, just cast Vindicate and/or EE and keep it off the board. If they board Krosan Grip against you, they have no library manipulation; just play more copies of CoP: R to get preemptively answer Grip and stall until you can hardcast a DoJ for 8 or resolve an Ajani.




You obviously havent crashed into Vial Goblins and Sligh galore.

My goblins matchup is pretty nuts personally, and sligh is also good even if they board in teegs + blast + shusher. I think i'd be fine. As for him he runs vindicate. He's an "outsider" to us :). I think he'd have more of a problem as his sligh matchup has to be just awefull. He has no out to slighs burn other then to counter it/ take it to the dome but he is slightly stronger with his removal suit I believe.

You've seen my list. against sligh I personally just side out the vendillions/ for blasts and maybe add in the path to exile for a doj but thats about it. Im not sure at the moment exactly. Present a sligh list and ill show how i side accordingly.

[Citrus-God]

I often find myself on the draw against goblins with t1 lackey. Call me random, but I like to keep things on the + side if I can.

I tried doing that against Thresh, but then I realized I didn't need Krosan Grips to win. I also found out my problem against Thresh isn't Counterbalance, it's Goyf. I keep those off the board and assemble EE + Academy, I win.



and survival/ elves/ anything running goyf is reason for it to be sideboarded in minus the mirror.


Most Elves lists just swarm in packs bigger than Goblins and just overruns you with 30 1/1s, Survival runs maindeck Enchantment hate anyway because it's Survival.



Ill explain burn later, as for d stompy yes I agree its good against them. Funny thing I saw pithing needle in a couple of d stompy lists in recent tourney experiance. Im not saying its good, im saying its there. I also have seen it relentlesly in burn list sb's.

They can board Needles against me, I probably won't care. That match up is damn easy.





My goblins matchup is pretty nuts personally, and sligh is also good even if they board in teegs + blast + shusher. I think i'd be fine. As for him he runs vindicate. He's an "outsider" to us :). I think he'd have more of a problem as his sligh matchup has to be just awefull. He has no out to slighs burn other then to counter it/ take it to the dome but he is slightly stronger with his removal suit I believe.

That's why Circle of Protection: Red can be good in his build. That and Ajani can go a long way.


You've seen my list. against sligh I personally just side out the vendillions/ for blasts and maybe add in the path to exile for a doj but thats about it. Im not sure at the moment exactly. Present a sligh list and ill show how i side accordingly.

Most Sligh Lists are really random. Just keep it in the general of 4 Goyfs and 4 Price of Progress and 52 others.

I think you should keep Cliques in against Sligh. It's mostly a 2-1 if anything.

[Mostly_Harmless]

I finally found a decent legacy tournament in Arizona, and I took UWb landstill. My maindeck was pretty similar to rockout's (2 FoF, no clique, only two EE because I couldn't find one in time). I made the board about five minutes before the tournament, so it was pretty bad (a little graveyard hate, some Pithing Needles, Ajani, Jace and Tidehollow Scullers). There were supposed to be four rounds and a cut to top 8, but they ended up skipping the top 8 and giving out prizes after the swiss. Anyways, here's a quick report (I didn't think to take any notes, so don't expect too many names):

Round 1: Mono U Control (2-0)
Game 1: I kept a hand with double factory, standstill, E Dragon and some other irrelevant stuff. He played a top and countered pretty much everything I played, but he didn't have an answer to the factories. He stalled with some bounce, but I beat him down to 4. He tapped out to drop a Morphling, but I had double StP.
Game 2: I only resolved two non-counters: Jace and Elspeth. He didn't stand a chance.

Round 2: My friend John with Fairy Stompy (2-0)
Game 1: He got a turn one chalice. I didn't force because I had EE. I let him have a jitte on turn two, then proceeded to waste an Ancient Tomb, EE a chrome mox (plus the chalice) and Vindicate an Island. I won with factory beats.
Game 2: He pretty much mulled into oblivion. I don't even remember how I won.

Round 3: The other friend I came with (Erin) playing a strange URg Dreadstill list (with no counters for some reason) (2-0)
Game 1: I knew he didn't have counters, so I dropped an unprotected crucible on turn 3. I held counters for dreadnought and swords for goyf. He couldn't deal with recurring fetch and factory.
Game 2: He got horribly mana screwed, and by the time he found a second land I was beating with Elspeth tokens.

Round 4: Belcher (1-2)
Game 1: I didn't know he was playing combo and kept a hand with swords, standstill and land. He dropped first turn lotus petal into timber wall, which I swordsed. He eventually broke my standstill with some acceleration, but all I drew was more land, spell snare and FoF, which found land, E Dragon and Wrath. He belchered for 32 damage without using any 2 drops.
Game 2: I had force for a quick belcher and EE for EtW tokens. I drew into a second turn Sculler, taking a charbelcher and leaving double Xantid Swarm plus acceleration. I then needled charbelcher and beat him down with the sculler and a factory.
Game 3: I had needle for belcher and wrath for EtW. He dropped ten goblins on turn 1. I didn't draw EE.

Overall, I was pretty happy with the maindeck. The only card I didn't really like was Spell Snare. It was useful a couple times, but there were several games where I just stared at it and wished it was something else.

[Misplayer]

I played the following UWb list at a local 21 player event yesterday:

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
2 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins

2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Eternal Dragon
2 Decree of Justice

4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Wrath of God
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Vindicate

3 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Standstill
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Humility

SB:
3 Counterbalance
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Hydroblast
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Engineered Plague
2 Path to Exile
2 Ajani Goldmane

Round 1: John with BGw Eva Green variant from GP
Game 1: He attacks my manabase, I get Crucible, he Vindicates and drops Top via Ritual stuck on Bayou/Plains, I go for Vindicate on Bayou immediately realizing that he has Top in play and how awful that was, considering I could have dropped Elspeth but chose to keep him off his land drops instead. He finds Wasteland for my white source, now I'm stuck on 3 lands with Elspeth and Humility in hand. I find Top, we play draw go for a while. He starts to amass an army but I drop Humility, Elspeth and win a game that was way too long.
+ 2 Path to Exile, +2 Ajani, -2 Standstill (he gets Top a LOT), -1 Brainstorm, -1 E Dragon
Game 2: He attacks my white sources again, I run out of answers/white mana and die in order to double Tombstalker.
Game 3: Factories get in for some solid beats before he stabilizes with Wastelands/Vindicates (he saw 8 wastelands in 3 games!) I'm still stuck on one white because I used my fetches wrong. We both end up with Top and land with me at ~16 and him at ~5. He get's Bob online, I start taking beats. He reveals Top off Bob (4), Fetches (3), Thoughtseizes my Humility (1). I Top and see Wasteland, Decree, irrelevant card. I draw Wasteland and play it, EOT trade with Top, Cycle Decree FTW. Phew.

1-0

Round 2: CJ with UGw Progenitus Thresh
Game 1: He gets double Mongoose and Goyf. I have Factory to waylay him, eventually finding EE for Mongeese and Vindicate for Goyf which is met by Force. He goes for Natural Order but I have Force. I hit pretty much all my land drops and return E Dragon with counter backup for his double Swords.
I don't have good board options for Progenitus so I figure I'll just try to keep his men off the table. +1 Path -1 E Dragon(??)
Game 2: He gets turn 2 Werebear, Turn 3 Natural Order. I Counterspell, he Forces. I have wrath and Top in play so I take 10, hit 4 lands and pray he doesn't have Daze. He doesn't. Factory beats for a while, I draw pretty well because of Top, he doesn't have Top so he's just trying to rip anything. He gets Goyf. I get Crucible, he has 3 duals and Island, Forest, Plains so I'm thinking about going for waste-lock next turn and Vindicate on Forest. He screws up that plan by casting Natural Order. Damn it! I Brainstorm EOT, look with Top on my turn to find a Fetch 3rd card down, trade Top, Fetch, play 2nd Top from my hand. I look and there's my single Humility sitting on top. I have 5 mana open, trade with Top, play Humility, wreck his manabase, win. I've been ridiculously lucky so far.

2-0

Round 3: Nischal with Dredge
Game 1: I have no idea what he's playing until he opens with Underground Sea, Careful Study. He wins turn 2.
+2 Crypt, +2 Plague, +2 Path to Exile, -4 Standstill
Game 2: He opens with turn 1 Careful Study but I have Force. I keep waste his Coliseum and he's stuck for a while. I get a Crypt online, and I'm beating for 4 a turn with double Factory. GG
Game 3: He mulls to an admittedly crappy 5. I waste his Coliseum and he's in trouble. I get double Plague (Illusion and Horror) and recurring EE. I finally find a win-con (Elspeth) and somehow beat Dredge.

3-0

Round 4: Justin with Merfolk
Game 1: He opens with Vial, I Force. He gets a Silvergill, Mutavault and Standstill. He draws off of it, plays more men, another Standstill, and it feels like he's ahead about 300 cards. Frown-town.
+2 Engineered Plague, +2 Path to Exile, -4 Standstill, -1 Crucible, -1 E Dragon
Game 2: He opens with Vial again, unanswered, then Mutavault and Standstill turn 2 through Counterspell, things are NOT looking good. He draws 6 cards off two Standstills and I get blown the fuck out. I lose with Humility on the table when he Stifles a Factory activation. Ouch.

3-1

After Round 4 shakes out there are 5 at 3-1 and only Justin at 4-0. I've already played Justin and 2 of the 3-1s (Eva Green and Dredge) so I'm pretty sure I'm up against straight burn in the final round. ARGH!!
Game 1: I stabilize at 1 life but Factory is too slow and he only needs to draw one burn spell to beat me.
+4 Blast, +3 Counterbalance, +2 Ajani, -2 EE, -1 Wrath of God, -1 Humility, -2 Vindicate, -1 Crucible, -1 E Dragon, -1 Brainstorm
Game 2: I get CB early and punt this game when I block his Fanatic with a Factory I just played hoping that he wouldn't kill it, which he did. We play draw go for a long time, I BEB a Fireblast, a Vortex and something else, but he has 2 more Fireblast!!! I drew about 12 lands to 6 non-land cards this game.

3-2

So it ended up being a frustrating day. I didn't play particularly well and certainly was way off on the metagame (there were 2+ straight burn decks and at least 4 Dredge decks)

Thoughts on the build: Top is SOOOO solid. Having the right answers at the right times is key for Landstill and Top helps this gameplan out a lot. I'd like a third if I could find room. I would definitely go -1 Tundra +1 Flooded Strand though. I never saw Enlightened Tutor all day, but I think it's too versatile to cut, especially with 8 targets maindeck and 7 more in the sideboard. I may have missed having an additional Wrath in the Merfolk matchup. I'll add it to the list of cards I'd like to fit including 2-4 Spell Snare, a 3rd Top and a 2nd Humility. Standstill wasn't great, but necessary in the deck especially without FoF or Jace.

The sideboard was pretty solid, although in the grand scheme of things, those BEBs did not help very much (I saw 3 in the second game against burn) despite occupying 4 slots. Everything else is so flexible that I would keep the other 11. If the metagame stays the way it is I should probably switch up some of those blasts to CoP: Red and another Crypt or a Relic. However, if the metagame stays the way it is, I'm bringing Stax next week.

Comments and questions welcome.

[rockout]

The main downside of cop red is krosan grip raped us. And eot grip on humility with fatties out spells gg. Mono red burn splashes green for grip or/and ancient grudge. That is why I don't recommend any enchants or artifacts in any meta especially one with lots of red. Except ee and mishra.

[rockout]

rockout

That's the only part of that post I had to read and I knew I'd enjoy it.

I'm glad the list functioned well for you. I'm not going to go into how good spell snare against the format, but in the matchups its not as good as it could be you just board them out for meddling mage and it serves as a pseudo counterspell.

[Citrus-God]

The main downside of cop red is krosan grip raped us. And eot grip on humility with fatties out spells gg. Mono red burn splashes green for grip or/and ancient grudge. That is why I don't recommend any enchants or artifacts in any meta especially one with lots of red. Except ee and mishra.

But Vexing Shusher + Price of Progress will rape you anyway; better off just playing CoP:R and hope for the best. Or better yet, board in Counterbalance and Tops.

[Mostly_Harmless]

I'm not going to go into how good spell snare against the format, but in the matchups its not as good as it could be you just board them out for meddling mage and it serves as a pseudo counterspell.

Spell snare has been great for me in testing, so I certainly have no plans to cut it, although I'm tempted to drop back down to two. Honestly, it wasn't really bad in the tournament either (except against Faerie Stompy). I was mostly just frustrated about the belcher match, because if it had been any other counter I would have won. On the other hand, if he had had to tutor or burning wish it would have been golden.

[mossivo1986]

But Vexing Shusher + Price of Progress will rape you anyway; better off just playing CoP:R and hope for the best. Or better yet, board in Counterbalance and Tops.

The more I think about it the more your right, cop:red is the right call. Even as a 1 of for me it would still be outstanding. Im really excited to see what pops out of alara reborn as theres almost certainly going to be something in our colors that is going to be productive to these few extra slots.

[mossivo1986]

Spell snare has been great for me in testing, so I certainly have no plans to cut it, although I'm tempted to drop back down to two. Honestly, it wasn't really bad in the tournament either (except against Faerie Stompy). I was mostly just frustrated about the belcher match, because if it had been any other counter I would have won. On the other hand, if he had had to tutor or burning wish it would have been golden.

You shouldn't be loosing against Creight Belcher anyways. Just saying the matchups extremely in your favor. Its even more so then Dreadstill, which is saying something.

[rockout]

But Vexing Shusher + Price of Progress will rape you anyway; better off just playing CoP:R and hope for the best. Or better yet, board in Counterbalance and Tops.

I keep swords in against burn so I can gain life off my factories or pumped elspeth tokens. When does burn ever have more than 3 mana to play PoP and activate Shusher's effect? I can't say that I've ever lost because shusher was on the board. I still gave access to "creature" removal against burn. I board out wrath x2, vindicate x1, tundra x1, crucible x1, clique x1 and board in 3 mage (or a 4th mage for a standstill) and 3 beb.

[mossivo1986]

I keep swords in against burn so I can gain life off my factories or pumped elspeth tokens. When does burn ever have more than 3 mana to play PoP and activate Shusher's effect? I can't say that I've ever lost because shusher was on the board. I still gave access to "creature" removal against burn. I board out wrath x2, vindicate x1, tundra x1, crucible x1, clique x1 and board in 3 mage (or a 4th mage for a standstill) and 3 beb.

Looks pretty good to me :).

[NQN]

@Mossivo: Yeah, I´m sure that Finks is better than Ajani. The advantage because it costs 1 mana less makes it huge against R/x beatdown. It kill everything but Goyf in combat and can start the damage race if needed. It´s just an allrounder which can be boarded against nearly every deck (seriously, I once beat UGr Tempo because of Relic+Finks :>)

Greetz,
Jan

[Ziilot]

Why not run Chills in SB? Helps against burn and goblins (sometimes).

[mossivo1986]

Why not run Chills in SB? Helps against burn and goblins (sometimes).

Because Chill doesn't stop them from playing their burn or actually do what they dont want you to do which is the exact opposite of what their trying to do "gain life" Chill is excellent against most burn decks, but its also not broad enough and it doesn't stop enough to make it worth packing unless your in a very heavy red Metagame.

- Im not sure that Kitchen Finks warrants playing enough because of the low life gain really not impacting the game. You have to figure their kicking your tail down to 8 by t3 unless you have something to combat them, so casting a 3power gain 2 doesnt seem nearly as powerfull as say wishing for pulse on t4 where your going to basicly re distribute your life total back to 20 in a matter of turns. It doesnt even keep you close to out of burnable range is what I guess im saying, and to further prove my point I ask you, whens the last time you won a game BASED on resolving a finks for lifegain and lifegain alone.

[rockout]

@Mossivo: Yeah, I´m sure that Finks is better than Ajani. The advantage because it costs 1 mana less makes it huge against R/x beatdown. It kill everything but Goyf in combat and can start the damage race if needed. It´s just an allrounder which can be boarded against nearly every deck (seriously, I once beat UGr Tempo because of Relic+Finks :>)

Greetz,
Jan

I'm sorry but you will only gain 2 life off finks against mono red burn. You'll be at less than 15 life by turn 3 when you cast finks. You'll go up 2 and they just reach back and fire the high hard one into your mouth. If you are going to run life gain effects your best bet is pulse in the 3 cc slot ajani in the 4 cc slot and there is very little better than those two at halting burn that match two conditions: 1. They can't be killed by grip? check. 2. They can either be wished for or brought in against more than just the aggro matchup? check. For instance, I used to board in Ajani for wrath in the aggro loam matchup because the only out they had was damage and paying four mana to kill a 2 or 3 cc creature just stinks.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Dont board wrath for Ajani. They like each other. When you lock out 1 creature with Ajani they have to overextend to kill him. Then you wrath and you have a clear board with a Planeswalker.

[mossivo1986]

Were talking the burn matchup here. Wrath is worthless.

[rockout]

I was referencing Ajani being good against not just the burn match but in other matchups as well. Wrath is not that good against Aggro Loam. Why pay 4 for a sorcery that kills a 2 or 3 cc creature when you can pay 1 cc in the form of beb and kill crusher, seismic assault, counter wish and dd?

[mossivo1986]

I was referencing Ajani being good against not just the burn match but in other matchups as well. Wrath is not that good against Aggro Loam. Why pay 4 for a sorcery that kills a 2 or 3 cc creature when you can pay 1 cc in the form of beb and kill crusher, seismic assault, counter wish and dd?

I dont think you drop wrath in aggro loam matchup. I think you drop vindicate and decree in place of relic+Ajani. Adding those allows you to go nuts on them overextending your creature hate and removing their LFTL. It allows you to play soo much more aggresively, resetting the board position ever other round not giving them an inch.

[rockout]

If I won game 1, I would board totally different than if I lost game 1. If I lost, I'd board in 2 perish, 2 relic, 4 mage, 3 beb to make sure I see a piece of hate for everything they run. If I won game 1, I'd board in 4 Mage 2 Relic. What I would board out? I know I would start with 2x wrath then a tundra then a standstill a vindicate a clique and go down the list trimming the fat to try and accommodate 11 cards being boarded in facing a loss.

[klaus]

If I won game 1, I would board totally different than if I lost game 1. If I lost, I'd board in 2 perish, 2 relic, 4 mage, 3 beb to make sure I see a piece of hate for everything they run. If I won game 1, I'd board in 4 Mage 2 Relic. What I would board out? I know I would start with 2x wrath then a tundra then a standstill a vindicate a clique and go down the list trimming the fat to try and accommodate 11 cards being boarded in facing a loss.

Boarding out a land VS LD.dec makes no sense...

[rockout]

I do it fairly often. Mainly cuz I don't give a fuck. Fetch basics against LD = profit.

Plus, I lower my overall curve post board.

[Citrus-God]

I keep swords in against burn so I can gain life off my factories or pumped elspeth tokens. When does burn ever have more than 3 mana to play PoP and activate Shusher's effect? I can't say that I've ever lost because shusher was on the board. I still gave access to "creature" removal against burn. I board out wrath x2, vindicate x1, tundra x1, crucible x1, clique x1 and board in 3 mage (or a 4th mage for a standstill) and 3 beb.


If they hit 5 mana, they have priority over you; they can just cast Shusher + PoP in the same turn. It's brutal what they can do to you.

[GGoober]

I've been taking a different approach for UW Landstill and chosen to go for a Loam+Wish engine. Here's my list that I've tested with good success against many decks, namely Thresh. It has a much solid MU against Moon.dec as well.

UWg Loamstill

Lands: 23
4 Flooded Strand
1 Windswept Heath
1 Savannah
1 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Island
3 Plains
2 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
4 Mishra's Factory

Counterspells: 9
2 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

Draws: 10
3 Brainstorm
3 SDT
4 Standstill

Board control: 13
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Humility
2 Wrath of God
2 Elspeth

Loam/Wish engine: 4
2 Cunning Wish
1 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam
1 Vedalken Shackles


Sideboard: 15
1 Return to Dust
1 Krosan Grip (very crucial sometimes against a Moat/Standstill etc)
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Intuition
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pulse of the Field
3 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Wrath of God (3rd Wrath dependent on meta)
4 Meddling Mage
1 Ajani Goldmane


The deck has been doing well, and I do not confuse this deck with ITF. It plays far more differently even though it runs the Intuition/Loam engine. Intuition is a one-of in the deck since it is not needed, as seeing either Intuition or Academy or LftL is good enough for the deck to get going. Besides, the Wish act as Intuition 2/3 if really needed. Most of the time, I never wish for Intuition, and draw the relevant pieces at the right time.

I'm a big fan of Wish-still since the Wishboard gives you answer against aggro via Enlightened Tutor into Humility or simply Pulse back your life when they have a less developed board. I would personally love to run 3 Wrath effects, but I have no idea what else to cut.

A note: 3 SDT is perfect in the deck. This deck really needs SDT, which works amazing inside and outside of a Standstill. The one-of Vedalken Shackles is debatable and since I play more on the style of MUC, Shackles has always been my best friend, especially in a deck that maintains landdrops.

I think that many people understand that SDT + LftL itself is also an engine. If the top 3 cards are dump, then dredge them away and refresh your SDT. It acts almost as a Fetch + SDT engine, and LftL does insane things by itself, recurring your singleton Academy Ruins. Not many people will side in GY hate against Landstill (if you didn't play the Loam engine Turn 1). They would mostly side in Artifact hate, therefore making Crucible less effective. I've found that the Loamstill build I've built has some synergy with Intuition/Wish, and with SDT, as well as recurring Wastelands/Fetches/manlands.

Some comments would be nice and if people can help test the list, let me know. Currently, my meta is flooded with Discard and Painter servants, and some Thresh. This deck has a decent MU against all of them, and LftL has improved the Discard MU as well.

The higher W manabase is crucial since I want to be able to grab basic plains against moon effects, as well as to cast WW in most cases under moon effects. Against decks with no moon effects, I'll be greedy with U-heavy lands regardless if the opponent plays waste.

[mossivo1986]

I've been taking a different approach for UW Landstill and chosen to go for a Loam+Wish engine. Here's my list that I've tested with good success against many decks, namely Thresh. It has a much solid MU against Moon.dec as well.

UWg Loamstill

Lands: 23
4 Flooded Strand
1 Windswept Heath
1 Savannah
1 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Island
3 Plains
2 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
4 Mishra's Factory

Counterspells: 9
2 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

Draws: 10
3 Brainstorm
3 SDT
4 Standstill

Board control: 13
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Humility
2 Wrath of God
2 Elspeth

Loam/Wish engine: 4
2 Cunning Wish
1 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam
1 Vedalken Shackles


Sideboard: 15
1 Return to Dust
1 Krosan Grip (very crucial sometimes against a Moat/Standstill etc)
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Intuition
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pulse of the Field
3 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Wrath of God (3rd Wrath dependent on meta)
4 Meddling Mage
1 Ajani Goldmane


The deck has been doing well, and I do not confuse this deck with ITF. It plays far more differently even though it runs the Intuition/Loam engine. Intuition is a one-of in the deck since it is not needed, as seeing either Intuition or Academy or LftL is good enough for the deck to get going. Besides, the Wish act as Intuition 2/3 if really needed. Most of the time, I never wish for Intuition, and draw the relevant pieces at the right time.

I'm a big fan of Wish-still since the Wishboard gives you answer against aggro via Enlightened Tutor into Humility or simply Pulse back your life when they have a less developed board. I would personally love to run 3 Wrath effects, but I have no idea what else to cut.

A note: 3 SDT is perfect in the deck. This deck really needs SDT, which works amazing inside and outside of a Standstill. The one-of Vedalken Shackles is debatable and since I play more on the style of MUC, Shackles has always been my best friend, especially in a deck that maintains landdrops.

I think that many people understand that SDT + LftL itself is also an engine. If the top 3 cards are dump, then dredge them away and refresh your SDT. It acts almost as a Fetch + SDT engine, and LftL does insane things by itself, recurring your singleton Academy Ruins. Not many people will side in GY hate against Landstill (if you didn't play the Loam engine Turn 1). They would mostly side in Artifact hate, therefore making Crucible less effective. I've found that the Loamstill build I've built has some synergy with Intuition/Wish, and with SDT, as well as recurring Wastelands/Fetches/manlands.

Some comments would be nice and if people can help test the list, let me know. Currently, my meta is flooded with Discard and Painter servants, and some Thresh. This deck has a decent MU against all of them, and LftL has improved the Discard MU as well.

The higher W manabase is crucial since I want to be able to grab basic plains against moon effects, as well as to cast WW in most cases under moon effects. Against decks with no moon effects, I'll be greedy with U-heavy lands regardless if the opponent plays waste.

Your thresh matchup is obviously good for very obvious reasons. You run all the essentials of landstill + you run humility. Thats pretty much GG pre-board for any thresh variant.

Other then that your board is loaded with too much overcosted crap. Too many slots dedicated to the same purpose.

Seed spark is way awesome, play it. FYI if your opponent was going to counterbalance your wish then you wouldnt be getting grip. Play seedspark as its simply better for the wish board slot.

Also don't play utility draw IE intuition in the sb. It pure and simple is win more along with FOF in the side it basicly reads, hey im a wasted slot.

[NQN]

I'm sorry but you will only gain 2 life off finks against mono red burn. You'll be at less than 15 life by turn 3 when you cast finks. You'll go up 2 and they just reach back and fire the high hard one into your mouth. If you are going to run life gain effects your best bet is pulse in the 3 cc slot ajani in the 4 cc slot and there is very little better than those two at halting burn that match two conditions: 1. They can't be killed by grip? check. 2. They can either be wished for or brought in against more than just the aggro matchup? check. For instance, I used to board in Ajani for wrath in the aggro loam matchup because the only out they had was damage and paying four mana to kill a 2 or 3 cc creature just stinks.


In fact, nobody plays stupid red burn. Everyone splashes g for goyfs and other stuff.
Against RG aggro they are amazing and for sure better than Ajani.They stop everything but Goyf! The only thing you have to kill with Finks on board is Goyf.
It´s enough to gain 2 life on turn three, then eventually block or attack yourself. I tested Ajani as a 2-3 Off, I tested Pulse as a 4-off and I was never as satisfied as I am with the Küchenhutzel(Kitchenfinks in german ;)).
Remember, I also have 9 Counterspells and mono red burn is very inconsistent. It´s very likely to win if you just gain 2-4 life and counter some stuff like PoP. Instead of the textbox it has, there could be something like :
"Kitchen Finks->Stopping aggro strategies since it was printed" instead.

[mossivo1986]

In fact, nobody plays stupid red burn. Everyone splashes g for goyfs and other stuff.
Against RG aggro they are amazing and for sure better than Ajani.They stop everything but Goyf! The only thing you have to kill with Finks on board is Goyf.
It´s enough to gain 2 life on turn three, then eventually block or attack yourself. I tested Ajani as a 2-3 Off, I tested Pulse as a 4-off and I was never as satisfied as I am with the Küchenhutzel(Kitchenfinks in german ;)).
Remember, I also have 9 Counterspells and mono red burn is very inconsistent. It´s very likely to win if you just gain 2-4 life and counter some stuff like PoP. Instead of the textbox it has, there could be something like :
"Kitchen Finks->Stopping aggro strategies since it was printed" instead.

I think your crazy if you think your going to hold off

4x pop
4x fireblast
4x lightning bolt
4x chain lightning
4x lava axe
4x mogg fanatic
4x incinerate
4x flame jav? Char?
4x Rift bolt

with kitchen finks and nothing else. Even if you drop 2 finks in one game it still won't give you enough tempo to survive let a lot do any serious damage to them.

As for sligh models the damage race is much slower because they simply run less burn, and in this case I still see finks as being a full round too slow for its net worth. Your better of answering their threats "creatures" then just going for wish preboard-Pulse of the fields. It leaves you between 5-8 life by the first time you pulse but in all likeliness it will win you the game vs finks which leaves you wanting more.

ajani itself soaks up a majority of damage including whole price of progres's or fireblasts when it resolves.

On a side note: We should all be checking up on Alara Rebord partial spoiler to see if something comes up thats plausible for landstill. So far no go but there is some promise to this set in particular.

[rockout]

On a side note: We should all be checking up on Alara Rebord partial spoiler to see if something comes up thats plausible for landstill. So far no go but there is some promise to this set in particular.

I'm check it every morning before work. I'm sure they are going to print something that is insanely good for us. I just have that feeling. And when I get that feeling I need... well you get the idea.

[mossivo1986]

I'm check it every morning before work. I'm sure they are going to print something that is insanely good for us. I just have that feeling. And when I get that feeling I need... well you get the idea.

I don't know about INSANELY good for us because I don't think there is much left in our pool of already ridiculousness to work with. With that said I do think that there are about 3-6 slots in the sb of my model that can be worked on.


1 path
1 pate
1 pulse
1 r2d
1 en tutor
1 hydro
1 BEB
1 runed halo
1 cop: green/ Red
1 relic
3 Engineered plague
2 ajani

Namely these slots:


1 runed halo
1 cop: green/ Red
3 Engineered plague

I think I may switch it up and go:



1 path
1 pate
1 pulse
1 r2d
1 en tutor
1 hydro
1 BEB

1 cop: red "yes you convinced me, you know who you are."

1 Crucible of worlds "halo just doesnt seem as effective to me and honestly theres a TON of Ld in the format right now. I just dont know if I would even side it in in the loam matchup or where I would, but who knows. This is the slot I would most like to see changed, along with cop red for something that just generally is a threat and gains life. It sounds like a reasonable request to me. "Kitchen finks for 2 anyone?"

1 relic
3 Engineered plague
2 ajani

[Mister Agent]

If they hit 5 mana, they have priority over you; they can just cast Shusher + PoP in the same turn. It's brutal what they can do to you.

This is very true. In this situation, the idea of running COP: red can be rather flawless. However, I imagine some form of manifestation like pithing needle and/or Krosan grip will await you in game 3 though.

This comment is not referred to you Citrus: I also wouldn't keep any standstills in mostly since they can still burn you out regardless of how many cards you draw. Goyf Sligh could care less on how long the game goes because the deck's objective still remains the same and it's pretty constant on what it does best.

[rockout]

I don't know about INSANELY good for us because I don't think there is much left in our pool of already ridiculousness to work with. With that said I do think that there are about 3-6 slots in the sb of my model that can be worked on.


Think about it this way. They are reprinting cycle. A cycling "decree" that puts 4/4 into play when you cycle instead of 1/1s would be nice. :smile:

[Ectoplasm]

Think about it this way. They are reprinting cycle. A cycling "decree" that puts 4/4 into play when you cycle instead of 1/1s would be nice. :smile:

We kind of already 'got' our big cycler, in the shape of resounding wave :(

[rockout]

We kind of already 'got' our big cycler, in the shape of resounding wave :(

:cry: :cry: :cry:

[mossivo1986]

We kind of already 'got' our big cycler, in the shape of resounding wave :(

Your fired. I had to look that crap up. I was like what is he talking about? I don't even have my mws with me? I went to wizards and found it and now I feel cheated. So again, your fired.

[Ectoplasm]

Your fired. I had to look that crap up. I was like what is he talking about? I don't even have my ms with me? I went to wizards and found it and now I feel cheated. So again, your fired.

Don't kill me, I'm just the messenger :cry:
But tbh, they have cycling as a keyword in this block and they've even devoted an entire week to it in the columns, so it makes sense to actually try and evolve it a bit more, right?

RIGHT?

[mossivo1986]

Don't kill me, I'm just the messenger :cry:
But tbh, they have cycling as a keyword in this block and they've even devoted an entire week to it in the columns, so it makes sense to actually try and evolve it a bit more, right?

RIGHT?

I'm confused, are you saying that alara reborn is going to have freakin' resounding wave in it? If so where did you find the confirmation on it?

[Rehallek]

I'm confused, are you saying that alara reborn is going to have freakin' resounding wave in it? If so where did you find the confirmation on it?

He's saying that there was already a "big" cycling spell printed in the block.

[mossivo1986]

He's saying that there was already a "big" cycling spell printed in the block.

Fair enough. Thanx for the input.

[Ectoplasm]

I'm also saying that they've done the 'big' cycling thing in SoA, they did basic landcycling in Conflux, who knows what broken kind of cycling we're going to get in Reborn!

[mossivo1986]

I'm also saying that they've done the 'big' cycling thing in SoA, they did basic landcycling in Conflux, who knows what broken kind of cycling we're going to get in Reborn!

Rockout and I were talking about making an instant speed vindicate for 4mana


BW2
Instant
Destroy Target Perminant.

Now lets have some fun with this one.

Add in:

2, Card namecycling. discard instant speed vindicate, search your library for Card name. When you do reveal it and shuffle your library. Place Card name in your hand.

how sexy would standstill fill that cycling slot.

[Ectoplasm]

Rockout and I were talking about making an instant speed vindicate for 4mana


BW2
Instant
Destroy Target Perminant.

Now lets have some fun with this one.

Add in:

2, Card namecycling. discard instant speed vindicate, search your library for Card name. When you do reveal it and shuffle your library. Place Card name in your hand.

how sexy would standstill fill that cycling slot.

That would pretty much be an instant-speed transmute, but yes, I support instant vindicates! One can always hope... :cry: I mean, they're reprinting terminate which is pretty cool so why not take it a step further?
It would probably cost more than 2WB though, something like 1WWB seems fine but a generic +1 on top of vindicate seems pretty small.

[NQN]

So, the Finks/Ajani/Pulse debate is over? Otherwise I have some more argumentes ;)

[mossivo1986]

So, the Finks/Ajani/Pulse debate is over? Otherwise I have some more argumentes ;)

Well you can't really argue with pulse. Plain and simple pulse is the best lifegain in the format.

Ajani is debatable but its ability to be aggressive simply makes it better then most other forms. And instead of being a 3/2 that nets you 2 life at will, ajani is 2 life gaurenteed a turn. Much more effective.

but yes sure go for it. have a blast.

[rockout]

So, the Finks/Ajani/Pulse debate is over? Otherwise I have some more argumentes ;)

Feel free to voice your argument.

[konsultant]

If you want life gain for the sake of beating burn I stand behind Ajani 100%. Finks are good but not really a game breaker. COP Red is obviously the strongest but with Krosan Grip and Pithing Needle it play's into hate cards. The best part about Ajani is the enourmous effect you get over time with no more Mana Investment and even if get's burned out it still saved you a ton of life and gave you card advantage on the resource's they spent to kill Ajani. Pulse is typically enough to beat burn but it is a heavy Mana investment and it is a conditional card where as Ajani will continue to stay there as long as you protect him. I guess it depends on exactly what you want life gain for?

[gamegeek2]

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [A] Tropical Island
1 [R] Savannah
1 [MR] Plains
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
3 [5E] Island
2 [UL] Treetop Village
3 [R] Tundra

// Spells
2 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [u] Wrath of God
4 [7E] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
4 [OD] Standstill
1 [TSB] Gaea's Blessing
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
2 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [5E] Brainstorm
2 [DD2] Fact or Fiction
1 [LG] Moat
1 [TE] Humility
1 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Posting only a decklist is NOT OK. You need to post your thoughts about the build, changes from the typical build, ideas about atypical cards, etc.

-PR

[rockout]

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [A] Tropical Island
1 [R] Savannah
1 [MR] Plains
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
3 [5E] Island
2 [UL] Treetop Village
3 [R] Tundra

// Spells
2 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [U] Wrath of God
4 [7E] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
4 [OD] Standstill
1 [TSB] Gaea's Blessing
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
2 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [5E] Brainstorm
2 [DD2] Fact or Fiction
1 [LG] Moat
1 [TE] Humility
1 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Can you explain the gaea's blessing? Moat's a really strong card right now paired with Humility. It forces your opponent to decide well, do I want attack for 1 a turn and lose all my cip/abilities or do I not want to attack and have abilities?

Well said Konsultant. Sounds very similar to my speal on Ajani about 20 pages ago ;-)

[3duece]

If I wanted to look at lists I'd be santa clause.

Edit: sorry, but please post an explanation or question with your list. And, unless your meta is all painter, blessing is dumb.

[gamegeek2]

The Blessing is, in addition to Painter/Brain Freeze hate, mainly due to Krosan Grip. It can shuffle Moat, Humility, and Counterbalance back into the deck, as well as the Tutors that fetch them.

[mossivo1986]

The Blessing is, in addition to Painter/Brain Freeze hate, mainly due to Krosan Grip. It can shuffle Moat, Humility, and Counterbalance back into the deck, as well as the Tutors that fetch them.

Thats really lame
-1 Blessing
+1 get better strategy.

Sounds good team break!

[klaus]

Well you can't really argue with pulse. Plain and simple pulse is the best lifegain in the format.

I disagree on several levels:
- as Konsultant mentioned the overall mana investment of POT fields (alone) makes Ajani way better.
- it's not viable as a 2-3 of in the SB. It is viable in WishStill, then again I consider the Wish board a dated LS approach.
- Another downside: Pulse is only really effective if you use it multiple times, obviously - as opposed to Finks and Ajani the Burn/Sligh player can burn himself in response, possibly countering the crucial "buyback".
- there's some more counter arguments (blaa..lol)
---

I'm pretty sure a final judgement on Ajani VS Finks is hard to determine.
In the end it depends on your metagame as well as the SB strategies your opponents employ. I want to highlight some of my insights nevertheless:
The MU where lifegain matters most (aka. the most common MU where we face lots of burn) is >>Sligh<<.
I've made the experience that Ajani is too slow here at times. PoP being the decisive factor. Also, pumping Ajani to 5 doesn't guarantee us having our opponent invest several spells to burn him out - one swing with Tarmogoyf (or Nacatl+Kirdape/etc..) is often enough to knock him out for good.
Needle was also mentioned as a wide-spread solution, I think.
---
Finks on the other hand comes down a turn earlier (which can actually be quite important). In the Sligh MU it not only serves as pure lifegain, you can view it as a combination of lifegain and creature removal, since it block-kills any guy but Goyf. If you employ simple math to calculate and compare the relative lifegain in such scenarios, you will have to account for the lifepoints you saved by potentially decimating your opponents creatures, too.

That being said, I've tested and liked Ajani, no doubt, but I came to the conclusion that running more than 2 eats up too many SB slots - then again running merely 2 obviously diminishes the chance that you'll see him - I lost some aggro/sligh games because he simply didn't show.
Finks on the other hand can be run as a 3of or even 4of for that matter.
The reason for that is quite straight forward: It's simply more versatile making it a viable boarding choice in more MUs. Hell, it's even alright against Combo.dec (well if compared to Ajani, of course).
Here are some more:
- (Aggro) Loam
- Rock
- tribal decks
- Zoo

Finks even allow us to replace that Eternal Dragon slot and that 3rd Decree/Else slot in the MD (making up for the diminished beatdown plan).

I could come up with some more pro Ajani arguments but I guess I'll leave that up to the rest of you, I'm a lil lazy right now.
-
Klaus

[gamegeek2]

Ajani also has other uses; putting counters on mishra's factory isn't terrible...

[Ectoplasm]

I like how Ajani dodges CB all day long, you can just side him in against countertop decks if you want to ditch some other stuff and let them have their combo.

[mossivo1986]

I like how Ajani dodges CB all day long, you can just side him in against countertop decks if you want to ditch some other stuff and let them have their combo.

Real quick note.CB decks are packing sower of temptation, fact or fiction, and mystic enforcer in their builds now. Obviously not all of them are packing those cards but almost all of them pack 2 sowers in the main. Ajani is no longer as safe as it once was.

[rockout]

I do agree that Landstill isn't as immune to CB as it once was. We still play better around CB than any other deck in the format. Unless someone keeps a 2-4 cc on top of their deck at all times. We should be able to resolve our key spells when it matters. Just play smart and if they get a blind flip of a EE@4 or 5 with 2 counters on it to kill CB you are allowed to use the phrase, "Must be nice."

[mossivo1986]

I do agree that Landstill isn't as immune to CB as it once was. We still play better around CB than any other deck in the format. Unless someone keeps a 2-4 cc on top of their deck at all times. We should be able to resolve our key spells when it matters. Just play smart and if they get a blind flip of a EE@4 or 5 with 2 counters on it to kill CB you are allowed to use the phrase, "Must be nice."

Keep in mind they can also reset their top 2 with brainstorm.

[rockout]

Also, I can remember having to force my opponent to draw off a standstill to get a 4 drop in his hand so I could resolve an Elspeth (I saw my opening and I went for it, I had Elspeth and I know he had 1 card plus wrath on top, I know what you may be thinking, you let someone draw off your own standstill, Elspeth won me that match about 20 turns later.) This was in a match against landstill, but it can work just as well against Thresh.

[mossivo1986]

Also, I can remember having to force my opponent to draw off a standstill to get a 4 drop in his hand so I could resolve an Elspeth (I saw my opening and I went for it, I had Elspeth and I know he had 1 card plus wrath on top, I know what you may be thinking, you let someone draw off your own standstill, Elspeth won me that match about 20 turns later.) This was in a match against landstill, but it can work just as well against Thresh.

kudos. Smart thinking.

[rbpong721]

Is UW Landstill as competitive without the black splash? The reason I ask is because I tried playing UWb and I'm terrible at managing mana. And what is the best way to go with UW? Wishstill? Is UW still viable or is the splash very necessary?

[Citrus-God]

If you want life gain for the sake of beating burn I stand behind Ajani 100%. Finks are good but not really a game breaker. COP Red is obviously the strongest but with Krosan Grip and Pithing Needle it play's into hate cards. The best part about Ajani is the enourmous effect you get over time with no more Mana Investment and even if get's burned out it still saved you a ton of life and gave you card advantage on the resource's they spent to kill Ajani. Pulse is typically enough to beat burn but it is a heavy Mana investment and it is a conditional card where as Ajani will continue to stay there as long as you protect him. I guess it depends on exactly what you want life gain for?

Ajani can get Needled too.

[3duece]

Is UW Landstill as competitive without the black splash? The reason I ask is because I tried playing UWb and I'm terrible at managing mana. And what is the best way to go with UW? Wishstill? Is UW still viable or is the splash very necessary?

You really need that third color for ee@3 and certain sideboard cards, just the blue and the white dual should do it unless you run vindicate or grip main. But if you decide to go UW I would run the wishboard just to give you some more utility.

[GGoober]

I played in a small 12-man tourney at Asgardgames (Houston, TX) and went 4-0 splitting Top 2 in the Finals.


Tournament 5: 04/05/09
1st/2nd place split: Brian with UBw(g) ANT and Chris Z with UWg Loamstill

Participants:[/u]
Will - UR Painter
Eugene - ?????
Chris - UWg Loamstill
Drew - Imperial Painter
Brian - UBw(g) ANT
Tray - Enchantress
Jeff - UGw Thresh
David - Enchantress
Lil' Chris - White Weenie
Joey - MBC
????? - Kobold Tendrils (Tray, WTH do you call this deck? LOL)
????? Last guy with ???? deck?


DECKLIST: UWg LOAMSTILL
Lands: 23
1 Savannah
3 Tundra
1 Windswepth Heath
4 Flooded Strand
3 Plains
4 Island
1 Academy Ruins
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Wasteland

Draws/"tutors": 13
3 Brainstorm
3 SDT
4 Standstill
1 Intuition
2 Cunning Wish

Board-control: 15
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Humility
2 Wrath of God
2 Elspeth
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Life from the Loam
1 Vedalken Shackles

Counter-magic: 9
2 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

Sideboard: 15
1 Krosan Grip
1 Capsize
1 Return to Dust
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Fact or Fiction
4 Meddling Mage
3 Hydroblast
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Fact or Fiction


Match 1: Tray with Enchantress
I beat Enchantress: lost game 1 due to Enchantress drawing more cards than any blue mage would, game 2 won the back on 2 Meddling Mage naming Sigil and Replenish (Tray sided out Orings since I was playing Loamstill but go Magus creatures in Loamstill! :D), I won game 3 due to a well timed Wasteland, and countering his draw engine
1-0 (2-1-0)


Match 2: Brian with UBw(g) ANT
Against ANT, I lost game 1, won game 2 off the back of 2 Meddling Mage (Mystical and Tendrils), and won game 3 because Brian ANT himself down to 1.
2-0 (4-2-0)


Match 3: Will with URb Servant
Will's URb Painter was a cakewalk for Loamstill since all I have to do is to ensure that Humility hits play. His EE/CB-top does nothing so he is only left with Force to deal with me. I also have answers with STP, Wrath so he can't really do much while he attempts to counter and protect his combo while I proceed to win with Humilities in both games.
3-0 (6-2-0)

Match 4: Drew with Imperial Servant
Definitely a much harder Painter matchup than Will's (not because Will's deck sucks, it's really good but because I have to deal with Magus of the Moon and Tomb/City plays). The games were summed up by me playing Humilities in all 3 turns. He blasts and protects Painter Servant, while I counter/STP and does what Landstill does. All 3 games, I resolved Humility. I won G1 and G3 and lost in G2 as he kept up the pressure and beat me down with four 1/1s while I draw no creatures/factories. Drew had an answer even with Humility since Magus' ability still gets through Humility, so occasionally my factories were mountains until I drew into EE/STPs.
4-0 (8-3-0)

Match 5: Brian with UBw(g) ANT
We drew since we're all stoned from 2 Tourneys lol. I would not have beaten him. It's just a hard matchup.

Comments:
- Firstly, this deck is based more on WW than UU. The first difference is the high amount of W in the manabase. At least in our meta, Magus kills a lot of things, but getting W and U basics with equal frequency is important against Moon effects if you want to EE at 3. The deck pretty much just plays and tries to stabilize until it hits 5 lands, and hopefully get back into control by blowing the board and sweeping the board before dropping win-conditions. WW is so important in the game since 6 spells that are crucial to the deck's winning strategy costs WW. I lost to Drew one game since he kept me out of my second W with Jaya + Painter. I had Humility + Wrath in hand. Sigh.

- This deck is reminiscent of an ITF/Landstill hybrid, but it's not ITF at all. There's no CB-Top, Goyfs, Deeds, and it plays far more like MWC/MUC/Landstill than ITF. It's not focused on the Loam engine, but if it gets it, it's a huge boost since Ruins recur EE/Shackles, and Loam recurs Factories/Fetches/Wastelands. This deck doesn't really need the Loam Engine, so it's not that GY-dependent on it, but when it does get it, it's much smoother to run.
- Humility is THE SHIT!!! I would want to run 3, but that's dependent on the metagame. If I'm certain I'm facing a green-less aggro metagame, I'd definitely hit it up to 3 since no Grips would screw my day.
- Cunning Wish was less useful although in testing, it's been amazingly flexible. I won G2 against Tray (Enchantress) by Wishing for Return to Dust, getting rid of both Enchantress Presence and Solitary Confinement. Worse comes to worse, you just go Cunning Wish->EOTFOFYL :D (did that twice)
- Wrath of God is subpar, but is needed since your opponent overextends when you play Humility. This is where it shines. I never saw Wrath, and in all my matchups, they were boarded out (except v.s. Painter).
- Life from the Loam stole me one game against Will as I locked him out of mana with Wasteland. Loam + SDT is another great engine if you want to crap the top 3 cards away into the yard.
- Standstill is amazing. Ancestral Recall?
- For those playing Landstill or considering the deck, SDT is broken. I can't believe we're still debating on 2 copies. 3 is the right number. SDT under standstill and SDT with little cards in hand is so crucial.
-Wish targets: Enlightened Tutor was never used but maybe important if I needed Humility/Runed Halo etc. Needs to be tested. Pulse of the Field is retardedly good once you lock out with Humility. Capsize was just plain bad (might be better if I didn't play against so many decks with red blasts :P).
- Meddling Mage is HUGE! I beat Enchantress and G2 ANT with it :P


Possible changes to the deck
I'm thinking of either adding:
- 3 Kitchen Finks/2 Ajani Goldmane in the SB against ANT/Burn. Finks provide a clock together with MMs but Goldmane is strictly better in gaining life in the long run.
- One Volcanic Fallout in the SB: I will consider this in Magus-heavy metagame: Uncounterable, castable.

Here'll be my optimized list, as of tonight's experience:

Lands:
1 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
3 Tundra
2 Windswepth Heath
3 Flooded Strand
3 Plains
3 Island
1 Academy Ruins
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Nantuko Monastery (just a little more heavy-green but keeps deck safe against Extirpates)
2 Wasteland

Draws/"tutors": 13
3 Brainstorm (3 is good number. I like SDT better but Brainstorm is still crucial)
3 SDT
4 Standstill
1 Intuition
2 Cunning Wish

Board-control: 15
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Humility
2 Wrath of God
2 Elspeth
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Life from the Loam
1 Vedalken Shackles

Counter-magic: 9
2 Spell Snare (would love to run 3 but 2 is fine so far)
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

Sideboard:
2 Krosan Grip
1 Return to Dust
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Fact or Fiction
4 Meddling Mage
3 Hydroblast
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Ajani Goldmane (meta-dependent, LS sucks so bad against burn/Goyf-sligh)

[Spur Grappler]

You should rather go for 4 Factories and 1 Wasteland. If your opponent plays some Turn1 Beater you can still easily play a Standstill Turn2 with factory online. Otherwhise it gets very risky sometimes even if its only a fanatic that beats you. But 1 Monastery is cool and should be played when you have the G-splash.
The Wastelock is not really important today as it is mostly good against your positive matchups, so one is really enough. In a long match where you need you will find it.

[rockout]

Wasteland? Only need 1? What? Explain?

Apparently, reading is tech.

[from Cairo]

Wasteland? Only need 1? What? Explain?

Pretty sure he did.

Mishra's is better at dealing with T1 guys (to push an early Standstill), and Waste-lock isn't what it once was, when used its generally in the long game where, with the amount of card drawing, you will likely come across the 1 of. It also has an Intuition that can pull up both pieces of the Waste-lock.

I personally wouldn't feel comfortable with only 1 Wasteland in a build w/o Vindicate and Tolaria West, but the list does have Intuition and Life From the Loam, so it's not that far off from the LS builds that run Tolaria West and Dustbowl.

I feel like Spur Grappler defended/explained his position.

[zulander]

What have you felt is a good way to deal with aggro loam?

[freakish777]

The following is the most recent version of "Landstill" I've been running. Admittedly it's basically Enlightened Tutor Control with two Standstills, but it's done fairly well in testing (it gives up a small percentage against the Aggro-Control match up for a better Combo & Ichorid match up, it's also pretty decent against Goblins):



Lands
1 Plains
1 Scrubland
3 Island
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Underground Sea
1 Academy Ruins
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta

Finding things
4 Enlightened Tutor
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm

Win More
2 Standstill
1 Painter's Servant
1 Grindstone

Lose Less
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Moat
2 Counterspell
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance

Sideboard
3 Oblivion Ring
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Runed Halo
3 Engineered Plague
2 Seal of Cleansing
1 Rule of Law
2 Pithing Needle



Counterbalance + Top gives you more game against Combo (and ETutor lets you put it together fast enough assuming they don't have the nuts), and is decent against random decks. ETutor gives you a 3rd spell in conjunction with Top and Brainstorm to stack something on top and counter a spell (and there's tutor targets from 1-4cc, and even different things that would make sense instead of just "I want to counter a spell, the only two drop in my deck is Standstill but I don't really want to draw it..."). Oblivion Ring & EE give you 2 outs against Counterbalance in the main (assuming you don't want to just try and resolve 3cc and 4cc cards like Shackles and Moat). Painter combo gives you the ability to put games away faster instead of waiting around for an eternity. 25 lands ensures you don't get screwed. Obviously the other reason to run ETutor is to run bullets in the board. It should be fairly hard to lose to Ichorid post board (EPlague, Runed Halo on Ichorid, Moat, EE, Crypt, and of course a 1cc instant speed spell to Tutor them all up).

One notable issue with this deck, is that it sacrifices power for flexibility. It wants to react to whatever the opponent is playing and nullify their strategy (there's no Exalted Angel, Decree of Justice, Eternal Dragon, Fact or Fiction, Tarmogoyf, etc). Rarely you'll tutor up Painter combo to win early, it's usually just the "I have things locked up, now I'm using Top to find another ETutor to go with Grindstone."

[from Cairo]

What have you felt is a good way to deal with aggro loam?

If they are running Volrath's Stronghold and the Landstill player isn't running Humility, I think they just win G1. 4 Swords can only permanently answer so many threats. If they run Chalice, then one has to wait til Vindicate is online to remove it, before they can even utilize Swords. Counters hopefully show up for Burning Wish and Dev Dreams. Crucible of Worlds can also help against Dev Dreams, but Crucible hurts your own EEs alot too cause you almost always want them set at 3 (an early one at 0 can be bomb sometimes though if they open with Land, Mox, Chal@1; and you EE out their acceleration and disruption).

My G1 strategy against them is to try to play as aggressively as possible, assuming that they are running Stronghold and do have inevitability over me. If they get to the late game/active Loam with mana to do additional plays, their card advantage will beat Landstills'. Spell Snare is huge, since it gets Burning Wish, Dev Dreams and Tarmogoyf which are their three strongest plays pre-Loam shenanigans. If they have Loam and are going off with that, then chaining Standstills can keep things balanced CA wise, as long as one is keeping up with the threats. I generally try to fetch a mix of Duals and Basics unless I'm sitting on FoW, cause a Dev Dreams resolving with the majority of the decks basics out will probably mean they can Waste-lock you out of the game post Dreams.

G2 and 3 its a bit better. Meddling Mage helps considerably; 1) by disabling their engine and 2) by increasing your clock considerably. Pretty much get a Mage on Loam and a Factory going asap, then you can focus all your permission at protecting your guys from Dreams/EE/Assault/etc and your Swords and Vindicates at clearing the way for them. If your running Relic, Extirpate or Crypt or something its obviously gold too. If Extirpate then you can chant something else; if sitting on Spell Snares and Counterspells then chanting Countryside Crusher or Terravore can work, if you have a bunch of creature removal than chanting Dev Dreams or Burning Wish would be better.

[Elf_Ascetic]

I really like an agroboard with Meddling Mage, Tidehollow Sculler and Ajani against Loam. And Relic of course. There are two options with landstill: Out-control them (if you have a slow build) or out-agro them (if your build can be converted). I haven't done much testing, cause loam doesn't see too much play here, but I'll give my thoughts:

In G1, make sure to don't let DD resolve. And if they hit their Worm Harvest, just scoop it up.

Creating cardadvantage is the most important thing, cause they have a LOT of threats. Try to keep EE for Chalice + Moxen, and WoG for as much creatures as you can take. And abuse standstill, obv.

Make sure to fetch basics. If you don't, a well timed Wasteland can ruin your chances for WoG or EE. Yes, you'll lose them to DD, but you'll lose anyway if you don't counter that one.

Almost all SB cards are good versus loam, Hydroblast, Relic, MMage, Sculler, Ajani. I'm still thinking about the cards that landstill can board out.

[NQN]

My plan against Loam is to play Relic Maindeck and board some beaters g2/g3. But usually it´s like Relic,Standstill,Removal, Elspeth->GG. With my recent list the loam Matchup is very positive.

[georgjorge]

That's interesting...I usually side out Dreams when playing Aggro Loam against Landstill, because it depends on Loam recursion, which is something that a) can win on its own b) will probably be stopped by the cards Landstill sides in (Mage, Extirpate/Relic).

[Misplayer]

@freakish777: I like where you're going. I've been less impressed with Standstill lately, probably due to the large number of Dreadstill/Merfolk decks in my meta. For these reasons, I've moved to a build similar to yours that I call "Landwalker" as I have completely cut the 'still part of Landstill. I was hesitant to discuss the list in this thread because it doesn't play Standstill, and is not technically Landstill, but the concepts and feel of the deck are the same. If the mods feel this is too far detached from the Landstill focus of this thread, then feel free to clobber my post. Anyway, here's the list:

4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
4 Island
2 Plains
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins

2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Jace Beleren

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Wrath of God

3 Brainstorm
2 Fact or Fiction

4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare

2 Enlightened Tutor
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Humility
2 Engineered Explosives

2 Path to Exile
2 Ajani Goldmane
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Runed Halo
2 Vedalken Shackles
2 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle
1 Humility
1 Propaganda

I went with U/W because I didn't want to weaken my manabase for Vindicate and sideboard cards. Also, because of the need to hit UUWW to be effective, I decided I would rather just play U/W bombs, although losing Vindicate makes dealing with opposing Counterbalances much more difficult. The G splash is for the ability to set EE to 3 and a few Grips out of the board, as I feel that Grip is one of the strongest possible sideboard choices available in all of Legacy. This could be a B splash if you feel that black offers you more help from the board.

Card Choices:
- Jace/FoF - These are what replaced Standstill. I'm not sold on Jace, and could return to 2x Standstill.
- Elspeth - Wins games. 90% of the format has no good answer to her. Insane with Humility. This is not news.
- E Tutor package - The new focus of the deck. I based the list roughly around the list piloted by Gavin Verhey at the GP about which he wrote an SCG article here (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/17208_Flow_of_Ideas_Through_My_Eyes_A_GP_Chicago_Story.html). This should be 3, but I only had 2 when I put this together. I'd be hesitant to go to 4 because of the increases vulnerability to CB/Top. If you’re suffering under CB/Top an E. Tutor off the top is not going to be the answer to your prayers. This also allows you to run potent 1 and 2-ofs in the SB.
- Humility – While not as powerful as Moat, it interacts better with Factories which are the only win-con outside of Elspeth. This card is a game 1 winner.
- CB/Top – Too good not to play. Top is an auto-include in my mind especially in a deck that’s focused on finding bombs. CB, while not as good as it is in Thresh because of my varied curve, is still so powerful and will almost always result in card advantage.
- Permission Suite – Counterspell flips for 2, so that’s why I went with 3. Spell Snare answers Counterbalance, which is a primary concern in my meta. I’d play a 3rd if I could fit it.

The remaining cards are pretty standard selections in a U/W control deck. The removal package is very heavy with 4 StP, 2 WoG and 3 tutorable answers with EE and Humility. I tried to build with the principle that Gavin discussed where the deck can operate under Standstill just fine, but doesn’t run it in favor of more powerful cards. I’d like a 4th Wasteland, but I don’t want to cut a colored source and Ruins + EE is so good that it warrants a spot.

Sideboard:
- Path to Exile – This card is solid as hell. It comes in against any deck with a man-plan that doesn’t run Counterbalance, and even some that do (i.e. decks without Nimble Mongoose). It also swaps out with swords to answer Dreadnoughts in a more sensible fashion.
- Vedalken Shackles – This card was a tough cut from the main, but I feel like it’s most efficient against swarm-aggro strategies, otherwise I have a hard time bringing it in.
- Propaganda – Hates on Merfolk/Goblins/Ichorid, pitches to Force and is tutorable. This is a pretty flexible spot.

Other thoughts:
Counterbalance still makes life annoying for this deck, as it does ANY landstill deck, and if you don’t agree then you haven’t played against it enough. If you’re sitting on EE, Humility, Elspeth, Wrath, Factory x2 in your hand, then sure, ignore CB, but in many many cases CB + Goyf can end the game when you can’t dig with Brainstorm, you can’t StP and God forbid they can flip for 3. Yes, we have plenty of outs, but this is still a card to be reckoned with.

I almost want more fetches to improve Top’s nuttiness.

I miss Vindicate for the ability to 1) go with the Land Destruction plan and 2) answer Counterbalance/a threat while under Counterbalance. However, slots are tight tight tight and cutting a color made too much sense with the color requirements.

The list looks pretty unfocused with a lot of 2/3-ofs, but try to look at it from the standpoint of what function each card serves in the deck and tally them that way, rather than just summing based on card name. I promise it makes more sense this way.

I’d like to get some feedback/ideas/suggestions on the build. Please try to refrain from just saying things like “cutting Standstill is wrong, GTFO of my thread”. Standstill is one of the most situational cards in the format right now. Your opponent opening with Top warps your whole strategy if you were looking to go T2 Standstill. If they play Wasteland and/or manlands it’s even worse. Now you have to spend cards to obtain a favorable board position to play Standstill and draw back the cards you just used to make it playable. Meanwhile, you’ve spent 3 turns spinning your wheels while your opponent is drawing more threats you’re going to have to answer. Standstill is a proactive card in a reactive deck, so I went with an all-reactive build. Please understand that I know Standstill is in many cases an Ancestral Recall. I’ve won games by chaining them together. I’ve also had it sitting in my hand, dead as can be, even more often. It may just be my meta, but I’m not very keen on Standstill at the moment. That’s all I got, flame away.

[rockout]

“cutting Standstill is wrong, GTFO of my thread.”

I might be one of very few people still playing standstill as a 4-of and even I'm working on dropping the number down for an awesome, super-secret tech. So, I can't argue that point.

You said, "and if you don’t agree then you haven’t played against it enough" in reference to counterbalance. Man, when I see counterbalance I'm like, "FUCK YEAH, I'm about to 2 for 1 this dude."

When your opponent leads with a T1 top why not drop standstill on top of it? I wouldn't second guess myself in that situation. What I'm thinking to myself is: "No T1 Lackey/Vial? T2 Standstill INC!" Yeah they have time to sculpt their hand, but you ancestral recall into better cards. I guess I get a little annoyed when people say, no you shouldn't drop standstill in that situation. It's like, "yes, drop standstill, every chance you get." There are very few situations where you shouldn't drop a standstill. 2/3 Goyf or less? Standstill. Confidant? Standstill (They can't use the effectiveness of confidant under a standstill because their CA just turns into life loss making your life easier.) Vial? Yes, you sure don't. Lackey? If you did, I'd hope someone dick punched you.

[3duece]

I'm with rockout on this one, standstill is still really damn good, especially in this deck. I could see cutting it from a four color list because it seems counterbalance fits that style better and they have less to do under a standstill. But this deck has the most to do under a standstill of any other deck in the environment, including goddamn merfolk.

Mishra's Factory
Wasteland
Tolaria West
Dust Bowl
Crucible of Worlds
Decree of Justice
Elspeth
Top
Build our manabase up!

I would consider cutting the fact/jace slot entirely before I dropped a single standstill, it's just too good. It's a crappy timewalk and a crappy ancestral recall rolled into one awesome draw engine/control mechanism.

[Spur Grappler]

@misplayer:

I can't see how CB should work in you deck. You have 6 cc2 cards and if you play a CB you have just 5 left. That seems pretty bad, as 2 is the most dangerous number for us in most decks. And furthermore you have quite a lot of cc4 spells (7) and many cc0 (24 lands and 2 EE which makes 26). You have enough cc1 of course and a cool amount of cc3 (postboard), but this is not enough for running CB. There are 37 (33+4 FoW that are only useful against other FoW) nearly dead cards for CB. In a Tarmobalance build there are about 17-18 (which are only the lands). See the difference? Landstill is just no deck for CB and if you try to fit CB in you would have to make some notable changes in the mana curve which would weaken the deck's lategame. Of course you can be lucky and counter some spells with it, but you really can't say that it would be even nearly as good as Standstill here. Even if you play in a heavy "Vial" meta, CB would be as "bad" as Standstill then.

And what's the point of playing only 3 Brainstorms in a deck with CB?? You should play 4 anyway in a Landstill, but with CB it's just unbelievable how you can go for 3.

I really don't understand why people can even think about playing just 3 Brainstorms these days. Shall we go through all of it's great possibilitys? I mean, what could we expect more from a card in this deck?

1. no card disadvantage
2. finds lands and counter or anything useful
3. protects cards in our hands from discard
4. is some sort of ancestral recall with a shuffle effect
5. can give you the card you tutored with Enlightened a turn earlier
6. with CB it is just unbelivable
(7. can be pitched for FoW)

And by the way, all of this for 1 mana. I can't find a better card in this deck. It is very useful in ALL matchups. And it just has no DISADVANTAGE. You always want to draw it. It's great in either early, middle or late game. Play 4!

[Misplayer]

I appreciate the constructive feedback; it has helped confirm my suspicion that the deck is too unfocused. I'll try to address all counter-points.

@rockout:

Yes you can 2 for 1 them if you have EE, and if they don’t have Force, because you’re not winning a counter-war when they have CB. And if they don’t have Stifle. They have 7-8 cards to answer 1-3 EE that you better pray you have. Otherwise, you’re looking 1/3 – 1/2 dead cards in your deck, trying to find an answer in 4 to 5 turns.

I also have a hard time dropping Standstill if they lead with Top, mostly if they run manlands/Wasteland. Aside from the card selection it provides, with a fetch they get to see 6 cards to your 1. I don’t like my chances of winning a manland/wasteland battle in this situation. Against Thresh, your point is valid, drop it and draw off it even in the face of Top (although, do you find that your 3 random cards are better than their choice of 3 out of 5 or 8 that they’ve selected while waiting to break standstill?), but against decks like Dreadstill with Top on the table forget about it, you probably just Ancestralled your opponent. Also, I’d be curious to know if you’d lay down a Standstill in the face of Top + Confidant. I don’t think I would.

@3duece:

I’m not sure what color splashes have to do with running Counterbalance. That aside, Crucible and Elspeth have to come down before Standstill for it to be effective. If you have favorable board position against Merfolk turn 4 or 5, well, it must be nice. Merfolk also runs 4 manlands and 4 wastelands. While this is the ideal config for Landstill, it’s usually not feasible. Decree is the only trump card Landstill runs under Standstill. And my larger point was that you need to get to favorable board position BEFORE you can start thinking about the ways you can operate under Standstill.

@Spur Grappler

Probasco’s 2nd place GP list had 8 cards that flip for 2, 4 Goyf and 4 CB. I realize my count is low, Spell Snare tries to shore up that weakness, which is why I’d like to add a third.

The 4 casting cost cards are game breakers, and dodge opposing CBs despite being lackluster when flipping for CB. Regardless, for one card to shut off even the one-drops your opponent is trying to play is pretty valuable in my eyes. It’s a one-sided Chalice at the very worst, and it doesn’t have to be a pseudo-hard lock like it is in Thresh because you have other answers to their threats.

I see Counterbalance as an answer, and Standstill as giving you three cards that you hope contain an answer. I admit that this is probably the wrong mental approach for Landstill, so take that for what it’s worth.

Lastly, Counterbalance is not a bomb in this deck like it is in Thresh. It supplements the control strategies of the deck. It improves otherwise difficult matchups like Burn and Combo and is almost always a lightning rod for your opponents Grips, clearing the way for bombs like Humility or Crucible.

On Brainstorm, I simply can’t fit it. I’d have to cut another 1cc card and the rest are too powerful.

I think -2 Jace +2 Standstill is the next step here. They both serve the same purpose (card advantage), but Standstill is tutorable and flips for 2, which combined outweigh the potential perils I’ve discussed, as Jace has an equal potential to be an awful topdeck. Thanks for the input from all.

[3duece]

@3duece:

I’m not sure what color splashes have to do with running Counterbalance. That aside, Crucible and Elspeth have to come down before Standstill for it to be effective. If you have favorable board position against Merfolk turn 4 or 5, well, it must be nice. Merfolk also runs 4 manlands and 4 wastelands. While this is the ideal config for Landstill, it’s usually not feasible. Decree is the only trump card Landstill runs under Standstill. And my larger point was that you need to get to favorable board position BEFORE you can start thinking about the ways you can operate under Standstill.



The color splashes have alot to do with running counterbalance, largely because four color runs deed and less white bombs which forces the mana curve much lower. Think about it, no more wrath, elspeth, decree or humility, plus four 3cc cards, plus loam over crucible, creates a much nicer curve for counterbalance. That's why itf, vorosh and some 4c landstill builds run it but most 3c w/white builds can't support it.

You're second assumption is absolutely incorrect, crucible or elspeth do not have to be down before standstill in the merfolk match. Turn one ee on 1 and turn two standstill is fine. Hell, alot of the time standstill with one factory is fine as you're likely to draw into more factories/dust bowl over the course of a couple turns, especially if you run top and some fetches. Seriously, you're overthinking things. Yes, you will (very occasionally) have to crack a standstill yourself. It happens, it's happened since the inception of this deck. You know why standstill works better in this deck than merfolk? Because if nothing else, we get to build our manabase up which is very important for this deck, where merfolk can function just fine on one or two land. I'll take a couple mutavault swings to stop the further playing of spells while I make land drops, it's completely worth it. Remember, if you win at 1 life, you still win.

[slaiter]

My list:

/Lands
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Academy Ruins
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Tolaria West
1 Wasteland
/24

//Creatures
1 Eternal Dragon
//1

//Spells
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Wrath of God
4 Standstill
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Moat
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Vedalken Shackles
2 Decree of Justice
//35


Suggestions?
Counterballance is necessary or not?

[Ch@os]

My list:

/Lands
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Academy Ruins
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Tolaria West
1 Wasteland
/24

//Creatures
1 Eternal Dragon
//1

//Spells
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Wrath of God
4 Standstill
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Moat
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Vedalken Shackles
2 Decree of Justice
//35


Suggestions?
Counterballance is necessary or not?

Looks like some older LS lists:

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=12420

[3duece]

Hey, I like that list a lot. That's like zvi's old list. Fit in a single counterbalance if you can, but it's not a make-or-break situation.

[rockout]

Also, I’d be curious to know if you’d lay down a Standstill in the face of Top + Confidant. I don’t think I would.

Yes, I would. Pretty sure I won those matches.

[klaus]

Yes, I would. Pretty sure I won those matches.

I wouldn't generalize such things:

Basically it's a question of whether the deck runs Wastelands/Ports/or Manlands or not.
--
Aggro Loam and DeadGuy being examples of running both Bob and such land.

[rockout]

I wouldn't generalize such things:

Basically it's a question of whether the deck runs Wastelands/Ports/or Manlands or not.
--
Aggro Loam and DeadGuy being examples of running both Bob and such land.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I won those matches too.

[mossivo1986]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I won those matches too.


Maybe I'm missing something in this conversation, but I don't see man_lands in aggro loam very often; or port for that matter.

[Spur Grappler]

Yes, I would. Pretty sure I won those matches.

I'm with rockout on this one. If you have a sword you obviously play it before the standstill, but if you have none what's the point of doing nothing? You have to find the removal so you have to play standstill, especially when you have a manland to block the Confidant. If your Factory gets wasted, you maybe get killed be the confidant, but otherwise you will lose to the Confidant's card advantage even more likely. Under a Standstill the Confidant gives your opponent only card quality, because he will have to discard after a few turns or break the standstill.

[Nihil Credo]

I may agree on playing Standstill vs. a Confidant (at least if you don't have any answer in hand), but I'm very, very skeptical of doing so against a Confidant and Divining Top. If you are only relying on your draw step you're soon going to fall behind in land drops as well, which is positively lethal.

[Omega]

My metagame is mainly
Landstill
Threshold
Gp-new-threshold (or NLU or Nassif's or whatever you will call them.)

Seeing how the 2cc are so powerful in Legacy, do you think a counterspell package of :
0 Counterspell but 4 spellsnare and 4 force of will
is good?

Counterbalance is probably the most problematic of all the 2cc. (On the draw, Counterspell is too slow)
Old Threshold's list were still ok, but with new GP-list (where they have a lot of 3cc and 4cc to shut down our Vindicate, EE and wrath/humility/elspeth) answers to CB have become more complicated! (Thus, it is ideal to prevent CB from landing altogether)


In theory, what is the greatest weakness of the deck?
In deck building, I found it to be vary hard to build the deck.
Should I pack more removal to increase my aggro and aggro-control matchup? (Especially Merfolk, new-Threshold, goblins)
At the moment, my removal package is
2-3 vindicate (still hesitating)
1 humility
4 swords to plowshare
2 engineered explosives.
I feel this removal package is best against Aggro-control (although vulnerable to Counterbalance, which most Aggro-control play), but weak against Aggro decks (I have almost no mass removal in the like of Wrath of God)

Should I play Decree of justice, more Crucible of Worlds to face mirror? (I don't play any Decree maindeck, in my current list)

How many basic lands? The more I play, the less consistent the deck can be. Yet, if I play no basic land, then I scoop to Blood moon effect. Worth the risk? With 4-5 basic, do I still scoop to Blood Moon? Obviously not, unless if they play it first turn (and I have no answer)
Wasteland vs Dust Bowl. In a meta with a lot of Landstill, I think playing wasteland is better. Especially against opposing Mishra's

18 blue spell is low, barely enough to support Force of will.
Do I need more?
Combo MU is already bad MD. Ignore it and concentrate against Aggro and Aggro-control and control?
Maindeck Counterbalance? Are they making the deck better against aggro and control? Or do they improve the deck only against burn and Combo?

Standstill : So good, yet so bad at the same time. Quite bad in the mirror. Not very good against Aether Vial. Can be risky when facing against Sensei's divining top.
I don't really agree on playing a Standstill against a Dark Confidant.
The CA generated by its ability will overwhelm Landstill. I do agree that he has to break the Standstill before playing any spells. Or he can just play a land every turn and eventually beat you. Or, if he plays discards (Duress, hymn). He can simply get the best hand possible before breaking the standstill and casting his discard to get rid of the CA you got from Standstill.

But back to my problems. They are
1- Counterbalance (in aggro-control)
2- Control mirror (losing the mirror makes me mad)
3- Aggro (Landstill should be capable of beating random aggro)

An attempt to solve some problems... (They have already been suggested, I believe. But I haven't read every posts)
A) I now am playing 3 Sensei's divining top in my MD.
Pros :
I feel they do improve my mirror (alot of landstill in my metagame).
I feel the 3 SDT also improve my general MU against the other deck. Card Quality can be an important factor in winning games
Cons :
The 3 SDT made me remove the Decree of Justice from my maindeck. So improving my draws against Landstill made me weaker against him, because I've lost one of my kill condition.

B) 1 Enlightened tutor in the MD.
Pros :
Like the 3 SDT, they help getting answers. I've cut 1 humility to play 1 Enlightened tutor. Not sure if it is a good idea.
The ET can get SDT, Humility and EE.
It can also get CB. But I am not sure if I will play CB or not in the maindeck.
Cons :
Slow?

Sorry if my post doesn't make any sense. Im trying to figure out a solution to my problem, and it was a sort of draft!

Robert

[Elf_Ascetic]

I think that decks like Eva Green/Pikula/GWB Agrorock with Confidant and Top are capable of breaking standstill and coming out on top. There's no better play to break standstill as eot: Dark Ritual, my turn: Thoughtseize, Thoughtseize. I'm pretty sure that a play like that should have taken away all the trouble for Bob, Tombstalker and his friends.

You run only 4 manlands tops, where they have 4 wastelands, card draw and a superior form of selection. You CAN'T win that, unless you're going, land, fac, land, fac, land, fac, land, land, land, land, decree or such.

I'm not a big fan of dropping Standstill in the face of a confidant unless I have:
- 2 manlands or
- 1 decree or
- Wog and Elspeth to break my own Standstill and win almost instantly

I'm sure I won't ever (at least, when I'm sober) drop a standstill when he has Confidant AND Top.

[Citrus-God]

I think that decks like Eva Green/Pikula/GWB Agrorock with Confidant and Top are capable of breaking standstill and coming out on top.

Aggro Rock and other Rock variants have always had trouble against Landstill, mainly because it loses attrition wars. All you should be doing against Rock variants is just get ahead.

Pikula and Eva Green are decks that rely on their opening hand. In fact, they tend to usually play off their opening hand. If they open up with a Rit, Thoughtseize, Hymn; then it's destined for you to lose if they have a follow up threat. Otherwise, they tend to mull. If they go 1st Turn Thoughtseize, Confidant 2nd Turn, then your second turn should be dropping Standstill. You will do this because if you can stay ahead, you will be able to live and continue to answer threats. Even if you dont draw Factories, you can sit on 4-5 Land and just cycle DoJ when declaring blockers.


There's no better play to break standstill as eot: Dark Ritual, my turn: Thoughtseize, Thoughtseize. I'm pretty sure that a play like that should have taken away all the trouble for Bob, Tombstalker and his friends.

They cast Thoughtseize, you respond with Swords. In fact, before you even move to discard step, you should be casting Swords. Which also reminds me, you probably have mana open to say, cast Brainstorm as well.



You run only 4 manlands tops, where they have 4 wastelands, card draw and a superior form of selection. You CAN'T win that, unless you're going, land, fac, land, fac, land, fac, land, land, land, land, decree or such.

I hope to god you realize their card draw sucks. They also lack a superior form of selection mainly because they're decks that, ding, play off their opening hand.


I'm not a big fan of dropping Standstill in the face of a confidant unless I have:

You also have to choice of breaking your own Standstill. EOT, you break your Standstill then proceed to drop a Humility, Elspeth or something else big with added follow up. The fact Confidant is on the board isn't much of a problem, because they only ping you 2 damage a Turn. They're probably taking way more with Confidant. Even if they could "sculpt" the perfect hand, you basically have your mana base set up and stabilized.

[Elf_Ascetic]

A
I hope to god you realize their card draw sucks. They also lack a superior form of selection mainly because they're decks that, ding, play off their opening hand.


Please, read. I was talking about Standstill vs Confidant AND Top. Confidant does not suck when it hits play and stays unansewerd, and a Top in play combined with 6-8 fetches IS a superior form of selection. YOU are the one relying on one random draw each turn, while they draw two, and can pick which ones. Decree is your only hope, because they will draw wasteland more than 2 times as often as you're drawing Factories.

I'll restate what I've said before:
Standstill vs Confidant; yes if I've got 2 Factories, the bombs, or Decree.
Standstill vs Top AND Confidant: only if I've got Decree.

For clarifiction: I'm talking about my list (1 Decree, 4 Factory, 0 Humility).

[3duece]

So this deck has been a major project of mine, I've been trying make it as streamlined and consistent as possible. Not that I don't think cards like wish, clique and enlightened tutor have their place, but I feel that in most of today's developed metas the deck needs to a. draw as much permission and board control as possible, b. function better under standstill than other decks and c. not die to nonbasic hate. So I'm looking at a list like this now, feel free to rip into it.

4 mishra's factory
3 wasteland
4 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
4 tundra
1 tropical island/underground sea
1 savannah/scrubland
3 island
2 plains

4 standstill
4 brainstorm
2 fact or fiction
4 counterspell
4 spell snare
4 force of will

4 swords to plowshares
3 wrath of god
2 elspeth, knight errant
1 decree of justice
3 engineered explosives
1 crucible of worlds/life from the loam (preferred but you lose plague in the side)

I like it because it's simple and consistent, rarely mulligans and punches through shit like blood moon pretty easily.

[rockout]

So this deck has been a major project of mine, I've been trying make it as streamlined and consistent as possible. Not that I don't think cards like wish, clique and enlightened tutor have their place, but I feel that in most of today's developed metas the deck needs to a. draw as much permission and board control as possible, b. function better under standstill than other decks and c. not die to nonbasic hate. So I'm looking at a list like this now, feel free to rip into it.

4 mishra's factory
3 wasteland
4 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
4 tundra
1 tropical island/underground sea
1 savannah/scrubland
3 island
2 plains

4 standstill
4 brainstorm
2 fact or fiction
4 counterspell
4 spell snare
4 force of will

4 swords to plowshares
3 wrath of god
2 elspeth, knight errant
1 decree of justice
3 engineered explosives
1 crucible of worlds/life from the loam (preferred but you lose plague in the side)

I like it because it's simple and consistent, rarely mulligans and punches through shit like blood moon pretty easily.

I don't get it. How do you punch through blood moon?

[mossivo1986]

I don't get it. How do you punch through blood moon?
One fist at a time :tongue:




4 mishra's factory
3 wasteland
4 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
4 tundra
1 tropical island/underground sea
1 savannah/scrubland
3 island
2 plains

Your model of all models does not need 6 fetches. Make yourself as resilient to stifle as possible, you cannot afford to lose land drops in the early game.


4 flood
4 tundra
3 waste
4 mishra
1 underground
1 scrub
4 island
3 plains

But thats if you want 24 land. It seems a bit much to be honest.


4 standstill
4 brainstorm
2 fact or fiction
4 counterspell
4 spell snare
4 force of will

4 counterspell??? I ask you, how much testing have you done with four counterspell. At least drop 2 and put the extra permission into something that will actually win you said game.


4 swords to plowshares
3 wrath of god
2 elspeth, knight errant
1 decree of justice
3 engineered explosives
1 crucible of worlds/life from the loam (preferred but you lose plague in the side)

Overall your list is basicly standard, but there are some fundamental things you are missing. AKA the numbers. Your numbers between draw/removal/win cons/ utility are off. You should really consider more then just FOF and BS for draw spells. Top is incredible right now, and I would run at least 1-2 in any landstill model I play, simply based on how powerful the card is in the mirror, as well as any aggro control match up you play in. You also should really consider the fact that your missing a utility spell. aka vindicate or wish. If you don't choose one or both then no ones going to look at your model as playable as these are the answers to the meta-game.

[Shawn]

Your model of all models does not need 6 fetches. Make yourself as resilient to stifle as possible, you cannot afford to lose land drops in the early game.

I agree more than 5 basics help tremendously, but you will still want to be able to cast your WW and UU spells in the face of land destruction spells such as Stifle. Running more multicolored sources (fetches) are going to be required, for his list at least. (less nessesary for you, Mossivo, since I don't think you have Counterspells) I run seven fetches and 7 basics, and I'm still not happy with my manabase, which includes 24 lands and two dragons. Also:http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=306782&postcount=515


But thats if you want 24 land. It seems a bit much to be honest.

He runs FOF, mulitple 4cc cards, no Dragons, Ponders or Tops. 24 is needed.


You also should really consider the fact that your missing a utility spell. aka vindicate or wish. If you don't choose one or both then no ones going to look at your model as playable as these are the answers to the meta-game.

I agree with this. I've been playing around with a list without either of these, and it has problems with resolved Vials, Chalices at 1, even with three Explosives.

[Citrus-God]

Please, read. I was talking about Standstill vs Confidant AND Top. Confidant does not suck when it hits play and stays unansewerd, and a Top in play combined with 6-8 fetches IS a superior form of selection.

How did your opponent get both into play? You must have not been playing your Spell Snares then.


YOU are the one relying on one random draw each turn, while they draw two, and can pick which ones. Decree is your only hope, because they will draw wasteland more than 2 times as often as you're drawing Factories.


Why in god would you keep such an atrocious hand to begin then?



For clarifiction: I'm talking about my list (1 Decree, 4 Factory, 0 Humility).


Why would you play 1 DoJ?

[3duece]

4 counterspell??? I ask you, how much testing have you done with four counterspell. At least drop 2 and put the extra permission into something that will actually win you said game.

I have tested four counterspell, I actually used to run it over two spell snare. Its never failed me and is very strong. I probably don't want two in an opener, but I want to draw them all game long.




Overall your list is basicly standard, but there are some fundamental things you are missing. AKA the numbers. Your numbers between draw/removal/win cons/ utility are off. You should really consider more then just FOF and BS for draw spells. Top is incredible right now, and I would run at least 1-2 in any landstill model I play, simply based on how powerful the card is in the mirror, as well as any aggro control match up you play in. You also should really consider the fact that your missing a utility spell. aka vindicate or wish. If you don't choose one or both then no ones going to look at your model as playable as these are the answers to the meta-game.

I find this questionable. I've never needed more than three win conditions beyond factories. This isn't your weird (but cool) speedstill/clique hybrid thing, I want to play a classic control roll here. I was running two tops in place of two counterspell for a hot second but wasn't impressed with them, especially without a full eight fetches or ponder. It's obviously a good card but I didn't find myself being able to drop one under a standstill often enough for it to be worth my while. I prefer the heavier permission suite, especially since it improves your combo matchup somewhat if you can make it to turn three or four. I really don't like wish as is well documented in this thread. Vindicate is a very strong card and maybe deserves more consideration on my part. But tapping down three in my main phase before maybe turn six or seven seems like a very weak play. But saying that my list is unplayable because I don't run the wishboard or play a set of three mana sorceries on top of explosives doesn't seem to hold up to me.

[Spur Grappler]

Your list is cool and far from unplayable. 12 hardcounter are great against a lot of decks. I myself play 11. I went to 3 CS to add SDT. This card is great. it helps you to find everything and with a shuffle effect you can cantrip it away if you don't need it. I would play 2 SDT, cut 1 CS and 1 Wrath. Wrath ain't that great anymore, it often trades only 1/1.

[Ectoplasm]

I often see people saying wrath usually trades 1 on 1 but really, are you playing in the mythical no-goblin-elf-or-merfolk.meta or what? WoGs have their place!

[Spur Grappler]

I often see people saying wrath usually trades 1 on 1 but really, are you playing in the mythical no-goblin-elf-or-merfolk.meta or what? WoGs have their place!

Elves and Golblins are nearly not present in my meta. Against merfolk the wrath is great of course (though it can be kind of hard to cast it against merfolk's heavy mana disruption combined with Daze and/or Disrupt).

But most decks can just play a threat like Goyf, Grunt, Confidant, Terravore... and you have to get of rid of these guys as fast as possible. Intelligent player's won't overextend against Landstill, because they know that one guy can kill us alone if it stays. You will just have to cast Wrath then. I don't say you should play no Wrath, but more than 2 seems not good to me. Then rather go for 4 EE I would say. Wrath is such a bad thing on your opening hand. EE kills Vial, Lackey, Mongoose... first turn and makes your way clear for Standstill. And it kills CB, Survival, Chalice... in the later game. Wrath is often just dead untill turn 6-7.

[Omega]

Is humility still good? Orf too vulnerable because of Krosan Grip?

My removals are
2 wrath of god
2 ee
2-3 vindicate
4 swords to plowshare

I wanted 1-2 more removal to face against aggro (Elves and merlfok)
but im hesitating between
3rd EE
1-2 Humility
3rd wrath of god

any ideas?

Robert

[rockout]

Is humility still good? Orf too vulnerable because of Krosan Grip?

My removals are
2 wrath of god
2 ee
2-3 vindicate
4 swords to plowshare

I wanted 1-2 more removal to face against aggro (Elves and merlfok)
but im hesitating between
3rd EE
1-2 Humility
3rd wrath of god

any ideas?

Robert

3rd EE, 3rd Vindicate. I sometimes bring in Humility out of the board. In my meta, everyone knows I play only landstill so I have to switch it up a little bit sometimes. Humility will auto win any game against any deck that wins through attack besides the mirror. I'd say run a 1 of Humility instead of the 3rd Wrath.