[Deck] UW(x) Landstill

[Ziilot]

I would certainly play humilities. Humility + Engineneered Plague is nice against tribal decks.

[mossivo1986]

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I would certainly play humilities. Humility + Engineneered Plague is nice against tribal decks.

Humility isn't going to be nearly as usefull for decks that don't search for it via tutor. Either run wish < Tutor< Humility, or just don't run humility. There simply is no reason to have that kind of a utility card and not have the ability to control when you get it, or for that matter other cards.

[Citrus-God]

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Humility isn't going to be nearly as usefull for decks that don't search for it via tutor. Either run wish < Tutor< Humility, or just don't run humility. There simply is no reason to have that kind of a utility card and not have the ability to control when you get it, or for that matter other cards.

I ran two Humilities without Wishes or E-Tutors, it worked out fine. I just stole pre-board games and then board them out when they board Krosan Grips in.

[mossivo1986]

I ran two Humilities without Wishes or E-Tutors, it worked out fine. I just stole pre-board games and then board them out when they board Krosan Grips in.

Stealing pre board games and then siding them out seems like an even more aweful plan then just playing 1 with tutors. Which is exactly why I said what I said. drop to 1 put tutors or wish for options/ consistency. Don't bug yourself into the random draw situation. You already do it with your win conditions for the most part, why not give yourself the maximum range one can have to take games preboard and post board.

Krosan grip isn't as big of a problem as just playing correctly. You don't humility 3-5 creatures in play with the obvious krosan grip comming. If you do its your own fault when he grips you and swings killing you.

[Citrus-God]

Stealing pre board games and then siding them out seems like an even more aweful plan then just playing 1 with tutors. Which is exactly why I said what I said. drop to 1 put tutors or wish for options/ consistency.

You just implied that you will use your Enlighten Tutor post-board, which also implies you're still giving your opponent's Krosan Grips targets.



Don't bug yourself into the random draw situation. You already do it with your win conditions for the most part, why not give yourself the maximum range one can have to take games preboard and post board.

It's not hard drawing into random 2-ofs. Especially with Brainstorms, Standstills and FoFs.


Krosan grip isn't as big of a problem as just playing correctly.

Correction, even if Krosan Grip isn't a big problem, it's still a problem. Small problems tend to escalate.


You don't humility 3-5 creatures in play with the obvious krosan grip comming. If you do its your own fault when he grips you and swings killing you.


Sometimes you have to. Had you ran a different card instead of Humility, then Krosan Grip wouldn't be such a problem.

[mossivo1986]

You just implied that you will use your Enlighten Tutor post-board, which also implies you're still giving your opponent's Krosan Grips targets.

That logic isn't necessarily true. What if I go for a standstill? Then krosan grip becomes pay 3 for fizzled let your opponent draw 3. How about setting EE off without passing priority? Krosan grip is still dead. In fact the only way krosan grip becomes a problem is if -a- you set yourself up with a humility casting with 3-5 creatures in play or if you pass priority on an EE. Otherwise it shouldn't really be a problem. The idea with my argument is that by having tutoring or wishable targets you allow yourself options on when to lay your bomb humility or game changing standstill. Its up to you really.


It's not hard drawing into random 2-ofs. Especially with Brainstorms, Standstills and FoFs.

Thats such hear-say. It's deffinately proven fact with as much draw as threshhold decks tend to run "ponder, top, brainstorm" that they don't even see the cards they want to see in given games. The other half of that argument is that if your not resolving standstill draws/ your deffinately not resolving FOF and thus your brainstorms probobly wont go all the way for you. Furthering my point.


Correction, even if Krosan Grip isn't a big problem, it's still a problem. Small problems tend to escalate.

Um, ok. Valid point that small problems tend to escalate. I also hear one eats an elephant one bite at a time.


Sometimes you have to. Had you ran a different card instead of Humility, then Krosan Grip wouldn't be such a problem.

If you run the correct package of removal spells/ tutors/ ect. you shouln't be put into a post board position of krosan grip wrecking you. If this happens your timing is bad and you understand exactly what happend or you just don't have the right configuration of spells. Consider revisions.

[Mister Agent]

Citrus God is right keeping Humilities in is a huge liability especially with everyone running Krosan Grips in this format. To be honest, I feel much more secure casting an Elspeth in the same medium where you normally would cast Humility. At least creating chump blockers would help you buy a turn or two to find that board clearer. But this is only the case if your opponent doesn't have any outs to your soldier tokens.

[mossivo1986]

Citrus God is right keeping Humilities in is a huge liability especially with everyone running Krosan Grips in this format. To be honest, I feel much more secure casting an Elspeth in the same medium where you normally would cast Humility. At least creating chump blockers would help you buy a turn or two to find that board clearer. But this is only the case if your opponent doesn't have any outs to your soldier tokens.

Well then I will expect to see no runed halo's no humility post board from either of you against anything splashing green.

With that said I would also expect that both of you should no longer run relic of progenitus or tormod's crypt against ichorid, as they can both be pithing needled, and are absolutely worthless if they see that specific card.

[Ectoplasm]

Then again, who boards K Grip in against a deck that drew 25 cards last game and didn't resolve an artifact/enchantment besides EE? :)
If the only enchantment you're planning to play is Runed Halo, and it comes in from the board, there's a big chance your opponent isn't going to be running any grips g2.

[rockout]

Then again, who boards K Grip in against a deck that drew 25 cards last game and didn't resolve an artifact/enchantment besides EE? :)
If the only enchantment you're planning to play is Runed Halo, and it comes in from the board, there's a big chance your opponent isn't going to be running any grips g2.

Bad players.

[Mister Agent]

Well then I will expect to see no runed halo's no humility post board from either of you against anything splashing green.

With that said I would also expect that both of you should no longer run relic of progenitus or tormod's crypt against ichorid, as they can both be pithing needled, and are absolutely worthless if they see that specific card.

What made you assume this?

Relic of progenitus, Tormod's crypt, and runed halo are totally different cards from Humility so I don't really see your arguement or correlation(s) for that matter. Obviously, we would board in any card that would let us have leeway against any deck in this format.

[mossivo1986]

What made you assume this?

Relic of progenitus, Tormod's crypt, and runed halo are totally different cards from Humility so I don't really see your arguement or correlation(s) for that matter. Obviously, we would board in any card that would let us have leeway against any deck in this format.

Look at the following quote, and you tell me if this makes sense to you.



I ran two Humilities without Wishes or E-Tutors, it worked out fine. I just stole pre-board games and then board them out when they board Krosan Grips in.

He sideboards out humilities because they may get krosan gripped and he doesn't want that to happen, so instead of playing around krosan grip, he decides to just make it an ineffective card; and thus wasting sideboard slots that would be used for another matchup that might very well be more effective with other dedicated slots.

My point is you should NEVER sideboard out something thats good in a matchup out just because someone sideboards in some additional hate. By doing this your shafting your decks strategy and throwing off your decks numbers.

The other thing I was saying is you wouldn't take out a card that was fundamentally important in a matchup so why would you take out something thats phenominal against ALL creatures. It simply doesn't make any sense even if they side in 4 grips. Theres still a large chance that they will only see one and they could always grip a relic of progenitus so they can stop you from ripping their goyf's to 0/1's.

The third consensus I was making is that wish and tutors allow you to consistently play humility at a controlled period where you can basicly say ok coast is clear, land humility, play win condition, gg. If you don't get that then I don't know what to say to you.

[Citrus-God]

My point is you should NEVER sideboard out something thats good in a matchup out just because someone sideboards in some additional hate. By doing this your shafting your decks strategy and throwing off your decks numbers.

The deck's strategy has always been keep the board clean and draw tons of cards. Humility doesn't do that.


The other thing I was saying is you wouldn't take out a card that was fundamentally important in a matchup so why would you take out something thats phenominal against ALL creatures.

I'll keep Humility in against a deck with little draw and manipulation, like Zoo and Vial Goblins, but I will never keep it in against Threshold. Threshold finds Grip way too effectively which ends up making my own Humility a dead card I drew that didn't affect the board one bit.


It simply doesn't make any sense even if they side in 4 grips. Theres still a large chance that they will only see one and they could always grip a relic of progenitus so they can stop you from ripping their goyf's to 0/1's.

It doesn't matter, the newer lists are running creatures that dont rely on the graveyard. Even if your cast a Relic, they still have cards like Bob, RWM, Trinket Mages and/or Cliques thrashing you down. So at that point, having a Relic of Progenitus doesnt even matter.


The third consensus I was making is that wish and tutors allow you to consistently play humility at a controlled period where you can basicly say ok coast is clear, land humility, play win condition, gg. If you don't get that then I don't know what to say to you.

Wishes are good, especially vital to stealing Game 1s. But Wish takes up so much space. Wouldnt you rather have a real Sideboard? I love Cunning Wish, it totally makes your games more consistent, but the problem I have with it is that they're only good in a concentrated and focused metagame. It's hard playing Cunning Wish Landstill effectively in diverse metas because the decks you will play your Sideboard is either weak or have nothing to prepare for. I like Cunning Wish, but only when I know what I'm up against.

[Mister Agent]

I see what your saying Mossivo but this still doesn't change the fact that Citrus God boards accordingly for any given matchup and alot of players do that in fact.

However, I think the more dead cards your opponent brings in the better your chances are at winning. Humility is definitely good postboard because of the psychological factor that Humility manifests and this indirect strategy becomes more relevant when they are in the sideboard instead.

In other words, if your opponent brings in Krosan Grips to deal with your humility then the card has done it's job. As long as Grips are around, Humility doesn't really extend your removal suite.

[Benie Bederios]

Hi,

I don't think, just as Citrus-God, that Humility can only be played with Cunning Wish and Enlightened Tutor. It's an effect that is harder to play around then Wrath of God. Aggro-decks needs to over extend thus walking into Wrath of God( I would never cut Wrath of God for Humility) or Enginereered Explosives. It deals with creatures that can keep come back( Aggroloam with Volrath Stronghold, Survival of the Fittest with Genesis.)

I do agree with mossivo1986 about the boarding out plan. I would even let them in against Threshold. With Crucible of Worlds, Engineered Explosives, Mishra's Factories and maybe Runed Halo/Relic of Progenitus, there are already to many targets for their Krosan Grips. Next to that does Humility stall for maybe 2 turns and that's all you need against Threshold most of the time.

Why would Cunning Wish ruin your sideboard? This is mine:

4 Meddling Mage
3 Runed Halo
2 Ajani Goldmane
3 Engineered Plague
1 Return to Dust
1 Extirpate
1 Pulse of the Field

I tested against most matchups in my meta and I never wished for Enlightened Tutor or Hydroblast and rarely wished for creature removal. The three slots left are the most versatile and the most gamebraking in those matchups.

BB

[NQN]

As he said, you know your meta and so Wish is good again. As for the Humility or not thing, I just cuttet them from the MD for more pro-active stuff which let´s Elspeth go all the way quicker. And my Opponents ALWAYS board in 3-4 Grips. It´s quite funny.

[mossivo1986]

As he said, you know your meta and so Wish is good again. As for the Humility or not thing, I just cuttet them from the MD for more pro-active stuff which let´s Elspeth go all the way quicker. And my Opponents ALWAYS board in 3-4 Grips. It´s quite funny.

Pro active as in I.E. more win conditions?

3-4 grips is a bit much for any deck to side in at the present time. I would expect MAYBE 3 grips, deffinately not 4. I don't think it's necessary for ANY deck outside of maybe enchantress should be running 4 grips, and even that deck doesnt have much of a reason to play 4 "other then aura of silence."

Bottom line if your removing humility away from your 60, when facing an aggro, or aggro control match post board I think your making a big mistake regardless.

[ebbitten]

I would agree with Citrus-God on this one, making more dead cards for your opponent is better than a card that you "won't really be able to rely on" because you'll have to play around the grip. I would much rather just have another piece of spot removal or something else that will trade one for one that won't cost me a ton of tempo in the thresh match.

[NQN]

Well, you lay Humility down and see what happens. Instead of that, I like to draw cards and dig down until I found Elspeth. Basicaly, I´ve moved away from Landstill to RemovalCounterElspeth.dec and I like it :) With 4 Vindicates, 4 Swords and 3 Explosives and 4 Spell Snare I feel very comfortable when it comes to aggro-control. Against pure Aggro I have Kitchen Finks and Plagues in the Sideboard so these are okay for me too. But basically I just want to beat Balance and Loam decks, cause these are most played up here :)

[rbpong721]

Well, you lay Humility down and see what happens. Instead of that, I like to draw cards and dig down until I found Elspeth. Basicaly, I´ve moved away from Landstill to RemovalCounterElspeth.dec and I like it :) With 4 Vindicates, 4 Swords and 3 Explosives and 4 Spell Snare I feel very comfortable when it comes to aggro-control. Against pure Aggro I have Kitchen Finks and Plagues in the Sideboard so these are okay for me too. But basically I just want to beat Balance and Loam decks, cause these are most played up here :)

I played the list you posted a few pages back and it worked pretty good. Do you mind posted an updated version of your list? Also how do you handle Goblins and Zombies. Tribal decks I suppose.

[gustha]

I personally don't see so much problems about having so many grip targets, if we resolve elspeth against any aggro-aggrocontrol deck. Recently the meta here in north-east italy has sharply changed from control to heavy aggro-aggrocontrol and combo, and I was obliged to get a 1x humility back in my deck because I had enough of losing to gobbo at the last swiss round due to bad draws and the lack of humility preboard :frown: (also, astral slide and zoo/sligh know a period of flourishing, and protreshold too). Elspeth is quite good to stall the board in MU's like threshold, but is a little weaker against swarm and tribal if you don't find (and resolve) your wrath. In all of these Mu's (except for gobbos with bolts) elspeth ALWAYS (or nearly so) has the chance to resolve it's ultimate ability. Once it is done, cast all the humilities, disks and plagues you want, the game is a cakewalk...no more grips, no more wastes, etc. Just a little patience to stabilize, and when the indestructible disk is online, there's nothing more to do (against decks not packing enough burn spells to finish us off with those, obviously). I do not see the point in boarding out humility against decks packing grip: we have a lot of good targets to let our opponent use his 2/3 grips on, all of which are serious threats. Just try not to resolve humility before elspeth (though sometimes you're obviously forced to). For reference, here's the list i'm playing atm:

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [B] Tundra
3 [TE] Wasteland
1 [R] Underground Sea
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [TSP] Swamp (1)
1 [R] Scrubland
2 [APL] Plains (3)
3 [RAV] Island (4)

// Creatures
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 [LRW] Jace Beleren

// Spells
3 [MM] Brainstorm
1 [A] Nevinyrral's Disk
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
2 [R] Wrath of God
3 [OD] Standstill
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
2 [AP] Vindicate
4 [A] Swords to Plowshares
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [A] Counterspell
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [TE] Humility

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [AP] Vindicate
SB: 1 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 2 [6E] Perish
SB: 3 [SHM] Runed Halo

I recently cut a jace for the 3rd top (amazing, no really, brainstorm become a mere pitch...). The monosb vindicate was moved away from the MD to make room for humility, but i'm not fond of it. Maybe i could move away from halo to put in 4 counterbalance, but i already tested them and i wasn't so happy (losing to burn at 5th round with my 4 cb on the bottom of the deck, 3 standstill resolved, 4 brainstorm used - old list - and 3 mulligan with top-fetch, is quite annoying...).

[VonDoom]

which also implies you're still giving your opponent's Krosan Grips targets.


I recently found out that giving opponents "good" targets is a real good strategy :tongue:

If we were talking of airwarfare, Landstill had to be considered a kind of bomber.
The plan is REALLY similar: reach your altitude, set the route, go for the theatre, do your ops.

And quite no active defensive weapons, but just countermeasures.
Chaffing is good also if you're playing Magic!

Oppo is boarding 3 KGrip?
Board in 4 more targets!

[zulander]

With dreadstill playing most of the same control cards and having the ability to actually win on turn 4, what's the benefit of playing traditional landstill over dreadstill?

[3duece]

With dreadstill playing most of the same control cards and having the ability to actually win on turn 4, what's the benefit of playing traditional landstill over dreadstill?

They play entirely differently, dreadstill is aggro-control, landstill is traditional control. From my point of view their respective weaknesses are:

Dreadstill:
1.Less hard counters (daze over counterspell)
2.Heavy reliance on countertop
3.Phyrexian Dreadnought dies to more cards than most other creatures i.e. grip, explosives at 1, shattering spree, dismantling blow and more I don't care to remember.
4.Usually reliance on red for the board control which isn't always good (like having pyroclasm instead of wrath, fire/ice instead of swords).

Landstill:
1.Quick to establish control but slow to kill, even with a playset of goyfs.
2.Poor countertop curve (could be good or bad depending on meta).
3.Without countertop and daze, recursion and combo can be very difficult to handle preboard, even with cunning wish.


I prefer landstill because it's more versatile. I don't want to play the aggro role so it works perfectly for me. Here's my newer list, by the way;

4 mishra's factory
3 wasteland
4 flooded strand
4 tundra
1 underground sea
1 scrubland
4 island
3 plains

4 standstill
4 brainstorm
1 fact or fiction
4 force of will
4 spell snare
2 counterspell

4 swords to plowshares
3 wrath of god
3 engineered explosives
3 vindicate
2 elspeth, knight errant
1 decree of justice
1 crucible of worlds

[Nihil Credo]

most of the same control cards

4 Standstill, 4 Force, 4 Brainstorm. There are Landstill lists running CounterTop, but there isn't a consensus on how to build the deck and in general they have had very little tournament success (there's something like seven or eight total such lists at DeckCheck.net).

The advantage of classic Landstill over Dreadstill is the access to board sweepers (Wrath, Humility, Moat), more card advantage (FoF, Crucible, Jace), usually more spot removal (StP, Vindicate) and countermagic (Counterspell, Spell Snare) and win conditions that are in most cases harder to answer than Dreadnought (DoJ, Elspeth, Dragon). What you lose are the Dreadnought-no-Grip easy wins, the Stifle-Waste-into-oblivion easy wins, and the CounterTop lock. In other words, they have two completely different game plans.

[Ectoplasm]

To me, dreadstill feels like a deck that tries to 'cheat' their way into victory. Woops, I stifled a nought into play and if you're not going to answer it in your next 3 turns it's game, because I happen to hold a FoW as well.
Whereas landstill feels like one big, long synergy that plays like rolling a snowball down a mountain, piling one advantage on top of another until you're left with an elspeth, 11 lands and a standstill on your side of the table while holding 7 cards, staring down the opponent with his empty board and 2 card hand.

Can't say I really like pile.dec aka dreadstill, it seems like a mishmash of good stuff that somehow wins games.

[Misplayer]

To me, dreadstill feels like a deck that tries to 'cheat' their way into victory. Woops, I stifled a nought into play and if you're not going to answer it in your next 3 turns it's game, because I happen to hold a FoW as well.
Whereas landstill feels like one big, long synergy that plays like rolling a snowball down a mountain, piling one advantage on top of another until you're left with an elspeth, 11 lands and a standstill on your side of the table while holding 7 cards, staring down the opponent with his empty board and 2 card hand.

Can't say I really like pile.dec aka dreadstill, it seems like a mishmash of good stuff that somehow wins games.

I have a slightly different take. Nihil laid out the advantages of Landstill pretty well so I won’t rehash it too much. Don’t shortchange Dreadstill though, in the hands of a skilled pilot it could very well be the best deck in the format. It’s one of the most versatile decks I’m aware of: it runs manlands, it runs wasteland, it runs 3 colors WITH a ridiculously stable manabase, it runs counter/top, it runs Goyf, it runs FoW, it runs Trinket Mage to tutor some of the most powerful artifacts in the game, it has access to stifle effects which can be used proactively (dreadnought, LD plan) and reactively (opposing EE/Deed), and it has no glaring weaknesses. I play against it almost every week and the pilot rarely misplays, and always has an answer – and if he doesn’t he always has outs that he can find with fetches/top/brainstorm/trinket. The ability to stifle-nought-FoW-autowin is pure gravy. I beat him in less than 20% of our matches, and I know his list every single week. Bottom line: Dreadstill deserves a TON of respect. I think too many unskilled pilots with subpar lists have diluted the deck’s success in the past few months.

Back to Landstill (sort of): based on comments by NQN and others, I think that Elspeth is quickly becoming the card around which to build this deck, rather than Standstill. A Landstill shell is a good starting place for this, but I’m unsure of the best direction to move from there. I really think Elspeth-control could become a powerful archetype, is anyone else interested in developing it?

[Citrus-God]

I recently found out that giving opponents "good" targets is a real good strategy :tongue:

Runed Halo isn't a particularly great target, mainly because if Counterbalance resolves, you have to make the decision to either blow your own Runed Halo up or risk leaving Counterbalance on the board. With decks running more diversified threats, it's becoming worse of an idea boarding in more targets.


If we were talking of airwarfare, Landstill had to be considered a kind of bomber.

The plan is REALLY similar: reach your altitude, set the route, go for the theatre, do your ops.

And quite no active defensive weapons, but just countermeasures.
Chaffing is good also if you're playing Magic!

Magic is also in some ways like politics; bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki had HUGE repercussions.


Oppo is boarding 3 KGrip?
Board in 4 more targets!

Make Grips dead and you will win in the long run. But if you were to hypothetically bring in extra Targets, better make them dangerous. Like Counterbalance; bring those in, then leaving Humilities in is a valid play. besides that, you have 7 extra targets (3 SDT, 4 CB). Running Tops also allows you to replace yourself.

[rockout]

To me, dreadstill feels like a deck that tries to 'cheat' their way into victory. Woops, I stifled a nought into play and if you're not going to answer it in your next 3 turns it's game, because I happen to hold a FoW as well.
Whereas landstill feels like one big, long synergy that plays like rolling a snowball down a mountain, piling one advantage on top of another until you're left with an elspeth, 11 lands and a standstill on your side of the table while holding 7 cards, staring down the opponent with his empty board and 2 card hand.

Can't say I really like pile.dec aka dreadstill, it seems like a mishmash of good stuff that somehow wins games.

That about sums it up. You also have to say you are gripping double force, double cs, double vindicate, and an ee with academy ruins recursion.

[Ectoplasm]

That about sums it up. You also have to say you are gripping double force, double cs, double vindicate, and an ee with academy ruins recursion.

That's downright obvious :rolleyes:

[mossivo1986]

Woo Hoo for all those ugb landstill fans you have recieved your in color vindicate :) Maelstrom Pulse. Now it doesn't pop lands, so that may be a downer, but you still get LFTL, Deed, and some sweet looking dual lands hahaha.

[from Cairo]

Woo Hoo for all those ugb landstill fans you have recieved your in color vindicate :) Maelstrom Pulse. Now it doesn't pop lands, so that may be a downer, but you still get LFTL, Deed, and some sweet looking dual lands hahaha.

They should just print a black Swords to Plowshares and we can remove White from the Magic color wheel. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[Ectoplasm]

IMO stp and wog are too good to drop white for, so...
The card looks pretty good but I'm sticking with my vindicates :)

[Citrus-God]

IMO stp and wog are too good to drop white for, so...
The card looks pretty good but I'm sticking with my vindicates :)

Deed can also get Stifled.

[mossivo1986]

They should just print a black Swords to Plowshares and we can remove White from the Magic color wheel. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Agreed.

citrus: I know deed can be stifled, I've played 4c for long enough to know the arguments of wrath vs deed. I also know that deed, LFTL, EE@4, STP, and access to some of the most powerful sideboard cards in legacy are avalible in 4c landstill's sideboard. So with that said, I am making the argument as cairo even further pointed out that this new card in a sense adds to ugb by replacing what would be a destroy x permanant slot. It's pretty good when you think about it. The lack of land distruction kind of sucks, but it punishes players who overextend, while also being efficient enough to take out teeg/plainswalkers/ and is also stifle proof.

Ectoplasm- "IMO stp and wog are too good to drop white for, so...
The card looks pretty good but I'm sticking with my vindicates :)"

While I agree it is difficult to replace stp as any landstill player who's played non-white versions, it is not at all impossible. Deed is quite powerfull and right now spell snare is soo god damn rediculous that I think it's fair to say that a u/g/b list spotting g/b vindicate/ deed/ spell snare/ force of will/ and some other 1-2 drop removal spell aka chainers edict maybe would absolutely be sufficient enough to play without STP.

[tafit]

Hello everybody!

I read this topci for a long time, and now it's time for me to ask you some questions.

here is my current list :

23 lands

3 mishra
6 fetchs
4 tundra
2 island
2 plain
2 waste
2 underground sea
1 scrubland
1 academy ruin

2 elspeth
1 eternal dragon
2 decree of justice
1 crucible of world

4 force of will
3 spell snare
3 counterspell

4 brainstorm
2 fact or fiction
4 standstill

3 vindicate
3 EE
2 wrath of god
4 stp

Sb is composed by
4 meddling
3 plague
3 runed halo
2 ajani
3 tormod's/relic



I want to introduce humility. So my recent changes are

- 1 vindicate
- 1 fact

+ 1 humility
+1 sensei (to search bombs).

But I think the third vindicate is must have... So have I to remove a spell snare for the third vindicate?

Thx for your advices! It's cool to read your argues on different cards. (scuse for my poor english lol).

[Ziilot]

Hello everybody!

I read this topci for a long time, and now it's time for me to ask you some questions.

here is my current list :

23 lands

3 mishra
6 fetchs
4 tundra
2 island
2 plain
2 waste
2 underground sea
1 scrubland
2 underground sea

2 elspeth
1 eternal dragon
2 decree of justice
1 crucible of world

4 force of will
3 spell snare
3 counterspell

4 brainstorm
2 fact or fiction
4 standstill

3 vindicate
3 EE
2 wrath of god
4 stp

Sb is composed by
4 meddling
3 plague
3 runed halo
2 ajani
3 tormod's/relic



I want to introduce humility. So my recent changes are

- 1 vindicate
- 1 fact

+ 1 humility
+1 sensei (to search bombs).

But I think the third vindicate is must have... So have I to remove a spell snare for the third vindicate?

Thx for your advices! It's cool to read your argues on different cards. (scuse for my poor english lol).

Do you have 62 cards on purpose? Maybe cut one EE if you don't want to cut Vindicates? I would cut also Eternal Dragon instead of Fact or Fiction.

[gustha]

Maybe there's 2 more underground sea in the list... :wink:
I'd NEVER cut the 3rd spell snare, it owns the format, really...Also, I did'nt like the 2 wasteland...if you want to go heavy with LD then run at least 3, if you want a soft lock them go back to dustbowl + tolaria west. With humility i don't think the 3rd MD vindicate is a must have, you have plenty of solutions to deal with aggro. However, if that is your problem, cut the 3rd counterspell instead, or the 3rd EE and insert academy ruins!!! I would also cut a brainstorm for a SDT (play at least 2, it's insane!), and maybe a standstill for the fof you pulled off.

[tafit]

I write two times underground sea. It's academy ruins instead of the two more US.

E-dragon is my 24th land. I can't cut it. So with some advices I will test this list :

23 lands

3 mishra
6 fetchs
4 tundra
2 island
2 plain
2 waste
1 academy ruin
1 scrubland
2 underground sea

6
2 elspeth
1 eternal dragon
2 decree of justice
1 crucible of world

Permission : 10
4 force of will
3 spell snare
3 counterspell

Draw and manipulation : 10
3 brainstorm
1 fact or fiction
4 standstill
2 sensei

Remove : 12
2 vindicate
3 EE
2 wrath of god
4 stp
1 Humility


I think the 2 sensei will help me to find bomb. I'm affraid to play only 3 brainstorm...
Instead of fact or fiction, what do you think about include Jace?

[rockout]

I like the list. Don't worry about 3 brainstorm, you are running brainstorm on steroids in the form of top x2.

There's a lot of back and forth about jace or not, so flip back a few pages and you'll see the comments.

[gustha]

I think the 2 sensei will help me to find bomb. I'm affraid to play only 3 brainstorm...
Instead of fact or fiction, what do you think about include Jace?

I recently put in the 3rd top (see last page), and it's oh god! absolutely amazing. With 3 mishra 3 waste, manipulating the deck under an early standstill il crucial. For jace, follow rockout's advice and read back some pages. Personally, I went to 3/3 split between standstill/jace, then went to 3/2/1 removing a jace for fof but this way I never used fof once, and so I added the 3rd top instead. I was firstly afraid of running 3x brainstorm, but top really is >>>> better. I see you do not fear wastelands... i'll try a basic swamp to fully abuse of MD and SB engines (vindicate, plague and the 3 EE's). I'll also suggest -1 EE +1 Nevinyrral's Disk: when you resolve the ultimate Elspeth ability it's nice to have an indestructible reset tool on the board (aggro-aggrocontrol decks can concede once the combo is online).

BTW, I just looked at the new cards spoilered and I'm glad to see that they've done a good job with MM, so i can stop seeing pikula's face every time I try to drop a mage ^^ The downside is that if you play with foils you have to wear sunglasses! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[mossivo1986]

I recently put in the 3rd top (see last page), and it's oh god! absolutely amazing. With 3 mishra 3 waste, manipulating the deck under an early standstill il crucial. For jace, follow rockout's advice and read back some pages. Personally, I went to 3/3 split between standstill/jace, then went to 3/2/1 removing a jace for fof but this way I never used fof once, and so I added the 3rd top instead. I was firstly afraid of running 3x brainstorm, but top really is >>>> better. I see you do not fear wastelands... i'll try a basic swamp to fully abuse of MD and SB engines (vindicate, plague and the 3 EE's). I'll also suggest -1 EE +1 Nevinyrral's Disk: when you resolve the ultimate Elspeth ability it's nice to have an indestructible reset tool on the board (aggro-aggrocontrol decks can concede once the combo is online).

BTW, I just looked at the new cards spoilered and I'm glad to see that they've done a good job with MM, so i can stop seeing pikula's face every time I try to drop a mage ^^ The downside is that if you play with foils you have to wear sunglasses! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

As much as I do agree that top is nuts, I can't agree with putting a third copy in if your not running counterbalance. The chances become too high that you are going to see a second copy "more then likely a dead copy, unless they krosan grip and you don't have a ruins in play."

Bottom line it takes away from your actualy card advantage too much I think and should be limited to the standard x2 that has been tested thoroughly enough to back up this argument.


BTW, I just looked at the new cards spoilered and I'm glad to see that they've done a good job with MM, so i can stop seeing pikula's face every time I try to drop a mage ^^ The downside is that if you play with foils you have to wear sunglasses! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh

I also checked her out and I was shocked, not only to see yet another chick, but also yet another blue card with flames. Its like the wish model I play has become a theme deck for chicks with fire and swords "not that im complaning."

[gustha]

As much as I do agree that top is nuts, I can't agree with putting a third copy in if your not running counterbalance. The chances become too high that you are going to see a second copy "more then likely a dead copy, unless they krosan grip and you don't have a ruins in play."

Bottom line it takes away from your actualy card advantage too much I think and should be limited to the standard x2 that has been tested thoroughly enough to back up this argument.
i've strongly considered counterbalance, but I think that if wanted to run cb top engine I'd have shifted towards MUC or dreadstill. I do also agree that the 3rd copy raises the percentage of making a copy of SDT mathematically dead, but:
a) I always want to see SDT on t1-2, depending if I'm on the draw or on the plat; moreover, with 6 shuffles effects (more if crucible-dragon recursion is online) the chance to see the 3rd copy is not that high.
b) the choices for that slot were:
1) another mass removal, maybe path to exile; I'm still considering it;
2) another mass removal; I don't think that would be a right call, since I got back to humility;
3) 4th brainstorm; this is also another option, but I find myself really comfortable with the 3 brainstorm approach;
4) singleton e tutor again; just another option, I'm not really enthusiastic with the idea, but it's a strong slot however;
5) another jace; went down to 2 recently, the 3rd is really too heavy;
6) singleton fof; discarded: top jace and brainstorm made fof really useless;
7) 4th landstill: meta full of wastelands and/or other manlands, adding the episthemic certainty that when I hide behind standstill my opponent becomes the lord of topdeck.

Of this 7 ideas, singleton path and singleton etutor are the favourites (didn't count the 3rd vindicate, though).


I also checked her out and I was shocked, not only to see yet another chick, but also yet another blue card with flames. Its like the wish model I play has become a theme deck for chicks with fire and swords "not that im complaning."

Maybe, with all those recent changes in the sets, Wizards' employees are passing too much time with figurines and less at home... :tongue:

[mossivo1986]

i've strongly considered counterbalance, but I think that if wanted to run cb top engine I'd have shifted towards MUC or dreadstill.

MUC? Do you remember what your mother said about doing drugs? Just say no man, CB is terrible in MUC. I will explain this more in a private messege because of how rediculously long this argument actually is against it.

I do also agree that the 3rd copy raises the percentage of making a copy of SDT mathematically dead, but:


a) I always want to see SDT on t1-2, depending if I'm on the draw or on the plat; moreover, with 6 shuffles effects (more if crucible-dragon recursion is online) the chance to see the 3rd copy is not that high.

This is Y.et A.nother R.eason T.o R.un W.ish. First off dragon and crucible in landstill is not only outdated and slow, one is often useless without wasteland, the other is most of the time a filter "not a win condition" These two slots have much better slots so theres no random crucible filter argument allowed, because they simply shouldn't be there. Crucible is highly effective comming in from the sideboard in random messeges and dragon is randomly good in EXTREMELY random situations where your basicly already either winning or the game has come to a standstill. In which case you'd proboboly be winning anyways if you hadn't used your 12 mana 5/5 with evasion. Bottom line both are simply too slow to work in the current metagame.


b) the choices for that slot were:
4 bs
2 TOP
1 FOF
3 Standstill

That seems fairly obviously to me, switch FOF with Jace if you want to, but honestly that setups been working for many people i've both partnered with and tested against since probobly december if not earlier.


1) another mass removal, maybe path to exile; I'm still considering it

2) another mass removal; I don't think that would be a right call, since I got back to humility;

You wont need any more mass removal if you running
4 stp
3 ee
3 wrath "or humility split"

Youll have approximately four utility cards with this approach to landstill "evening the numbers" which allows you to consider if you'd rather play more aggresively "speedstill" or have a safer long game and much safer landbase "wish still" Either way these are the two best approaches right now to landstill, just look at the numbers on deck check magic-league and/ or tourney reports here.


3) 4th brainstorm; this is also another option, but I find myself really comfortable with the 3 brainstorm approach;

Isn't Brainstorm the best draw spell in the format? Why would you play 3x when its restricted in vintage for being too powerfull?


4) singleton e tutor again; just another option, I'm not really enthusiastic with the idea, but it's a strong slot however;

Singleton e-tutor was randomly amazing for me, but I agree in the sense that i'd be meh about it as well.


5) another jace; went down to 2 recently, the 3rd is really too heavy;

so then you must be more like this:

3 bs
3 standstill
2 jace
3 top
? In which case top still looks out of place at the 11th slot and id cut one or a jace. if you chose jace id stick it to the side for good will! She seems slightly amazing.


6) singleton fof; discarded: top jace and brainstorm made fof really useless;
Id like to hear more about this.


7) 4th landstill: meta full of wastelands and/or other manlands, adding the episthemic certainty that when I hide behind standstill my opponent becomes the lord of topdeck.

agreed but FOF is the fourth standstill so you can still play your spells. More on "singleton fof; discarded: top jace and brainstorm made fof really useless."


Of this 7 ideas, singleton path and singleton etutor are the favourites (didn't count the 3rd vindicate, though).

Vindicate is your other option because of utility removal. Well that and wish, but in your case id go with vind.

[gustha]

MUC? Do you remember what your mother said about doing drugs? Just say no man, CB is terrible in MUC. I will explain this more in a private messege because of how rediculously long this argument actually is against it.
Man, it's 2 night i cannot sleep for god only knows what reason, and had already finished talking with a friend of mine that wanted my set of fow to build MUC for the same torunament i play in (with that set of fow, ofc!). Be comprehensive! :tongue:


This is Y.et A.nother R.eason T.o R.un W.ish.
It's longe since I gave up wish and I'm very well, thanks ^^

First off dragon and crucible in landstill is not only outdated and slow, one is often useless without wasteland, the other is most of the time a filter "not a win condition" These two slots have much better slots so theres no random crucible filter argument allowed, because they simply shouldn't be there.
My question is: what are these better slots? I well know that dragon is a little slow for the meta (even if the last tournament was full of aggro and 45% of my games dragon was on the table), and cruci too is slow. Probably you're right in saying that'll be good to swith the vindicate form my sb in the slot of the MD crucible. My fear is that I have 6 + 3 + 1 + 1 = 11 colored fonts, and lots of wastes to face...


Youll have approximately four utility cards with this approach to landstill "evening the numbers" which allows you to consider if you'd rather play more aggresively "speedstill" or have a safer long game and much safer landbase "wish still" Either way these are the two best approaches right now to landstill, just look at the numbers on deck check magic-league and/ or tourney reports here.
I do look. The fact is that i do really like the aggressive approach of speedstill (stick to my crucible, my wastes and my doj's :tongue: ) but I also want a deck to be capable of a safer long game without using wish. I know I'm a man of difficult tastes :laugh:


Isn't Brainstorm the best draw spell in the format? Why would you play 3x when its restricted in vintage for being too powerfull?
Simply because top + jace is nuts.


Singleton e-tutor was randomly amazing for me, but I agree in the sense that i'd be meh about it as well.
Yeah, but better improve the draw engine.


so then you must be more like this:

3 bs
3 standstill
2 jace
3 top
? In which case top still looks out of place at the 11th slot and id cut one or a jace. if you chose jace id stick it to the side for good will! She seems slightly amazing.
Atm, i'm thinking of cutting a top for the 4th brainstorm (to re-raise the blue count), but i've not discarded path to exile.


Id like to hear more about this.
I've tested 2 months this configuration:
3 bs
3 still
2 jace
2 top
1 fof
And really, I can't remember a single game in which I used fof. :confused: So I simply discarded it... The others did well without it, and every time I drew fof has always been a dead card (or a good pitch).d


Vindicate is your other option because of utility removal. Well that and wish, but in your case id go with vind.
The only thing i'd cut for vindicate, atm, is dragon...the 4th brainstorm can easily replace him...

[Goblin Snowman]

Hello!

I have been working on a deck designed to be decent against Aggro-Loam, Merfolk, and Counter-Top (good luck with that, right?), as all three are fairly common in my metagame. The deck is very similar to Landstill, with a few changes, and I would appreciate any comments you might have. I have tried to move away from slower or "clunky" card choices in this build.

4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Diabolic Edict
3x Engineered Explosives
3x Vedelkan Shackles

3x Spell Snare
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
3x Draw Spell - I am very unsure about this slot. Jace, Thirst for Knowledge, and Fact or Fiction are all being tested.
3x Cunning Wish
2x Isochorn Scepter
3x Sense's Diving Top
2x Hoofprints of the Stag - Again, I'm unsure about what, if any, win condition needs to go here. Tombstalker, Eternal Dragon, and a few others may be better.

2x Acadamy Ruins
4x Mishra's Factory
1x Plains
3x Tundra
2x Underground Sea
4x Flooded Strand
1x Polluted Delta
6x Island

SB
4x Extripate
4x Path to Exile
3x Counterbalance
1x Return to Dust - I'm considering Disenchant due to Scepter
1x Counterspell
1x Orim's Chant
1x Fact or Fiction

Notable absences;

Wrath of God - Double white can be rough, especially with the Island heavy build. Also, while it is very powerful is key situations, the high amount of targeted removable and Explosives might make it redundant main deck.
Humility - Similar to Wrath. It takes four mana and double white.
Standstill - There are a large amount of Merfolk/Faeries/Fish-like decks in my meta running their own Standstills, and with Vial and Mutavault, and the lack of Decree in here, they have the advantage under Standstill.

The high amount of creature hate coupled with Spell Snare should help ensure a decent early game, with Shackles and Scepter (and Ruins + Explosives) helping later on. However, the deck has a glaring weakness to Grip and Trygon Predator, with many of the key cards being targetable. Also, the win is exceedingly slow (Extripate on Scepter, Factory beats, Shackled Creature beats, or Hoofprints), giving the other player a long time to draw out of a bad situation as the deck lacks powerful effects like Moat or Humility.

Thoughts on the deck?

[mossivo1986]

4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Diabolic Edict
3x Engineered Explosives
3x Vedelkan Shackles

3x Spell Snare
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
3x Draw Spell - I am very unsure about this slot. Jace, Thirst for Knowledge, and Fact or Fiction are all being tested.
3x Cunning Wish
2x Isochorn Scepter
3x Sense's Diving Top
2x Hoofprints of the Stag - Again, I'm unsure about what, if any, win condition needs to go here. Tombstalker, Eternal Dragon, and a few others may be better.

2x Acadamy Ruins
4x Mishra's Factory
1x Plains
3x Tundra
2x Underground Sea
4x Flooded Strand
1x Polluted Delta
6x Island

SB
4x Extripate
4x Path to Exile
3x Counterbalance
1x Return to Dust - I'm considering Disenchant due to Scepter
1x Counterspell
1x Orim's Chant
1x Fact or Fiction

Lack of Vendillion clique makes me cry. If your playing against loam vendillion is gold. Its also a solid beater in the merfolk matchup and its also rediculous against counter-top decks because it -a- is unstoppable unless they play tygon predator and -b- kills tygon predator.

[Ectoplasm]

The first thing I noticed is the lack of countermagic. 4 FoWs are great but 3 snares as backup isn't going to cut it imo.

[rsaunder]

I think I like to play more of a reactive game with this deck than many people. I wasn't fond of the planeswalker as a draw engine; I preferred to play FoF at my opponent's EOT instead of 3 on my own turn. In a deck like this, I find that timing to be the crucial difference. I also like the immediacy of FoF's draw power, you can use it to dig instead of just ramp up CA over quite a few turns.

[Master Shake]

I think I like to play more of a reactive game with this deck than many people. I wasn't fond of the planeswalker as a draw engine; I preferred to play FoF at my opponent's EOT instead of 3 on my own turn. In a deck like this, I find that timing to be the crucial difference. I also like the immediacy of FoF's draw power, you can use it to dig instead of just ramp up CA over quite a few turns.

Tru dat.

Also, FoF cannot be burned or attacked.

And I think that represents a fundamental difference in the philosophy of people who are playing this deck. There are some people that want to go one-for-one on threats with a bunch of small removal spells, and then there is the group of people who wants to use bigger card-advantage and generally higher cost cards to swing the game. I wonder if finding the distinctions between the sub-types of current Landstill and splitting the lists again would promote growth for both archetypes.

[Goblin Snowman]

Lack of Vendillion clique makes me cry. If your playing against loam vendillion is gold. Its also a solid beater in the merfolk matchup and its also rediculous against counter-top decks because it -a- is unstoppable unless they play tygon predator and -b- kills tygon predator.

Vendillion Clique is a possibility. Losing Hoofprints, a Top, and possibly and Edict would allow for 4 Cliques, a more stable mana base, and a much faster potential win. I'll run that through my testing.


The first thing I noticed is the lack of countermagic. 4 FoWs are great but 3 snares as backup isn't going to cut it imo.3

Against my projected metagame, do you feel that I would need additional Countermagic? Remember, there is a high density of low CC removal present in the deck, with a potential 8 Swords and 3 Edicts post board. At the last event, I believe there was a single combo deck present, and it was vulnerable to Swords. What makes Countermagic more effective than recurring board control via Explosives, Scepter, or Shackles?


I think I like to play more of a reactive game with this deck than many people. I wasn't fond of the planeswalker as a draw engine; I preferred to play FoF at my opponent's EOT instead of 3 on my own turn. In a deck like this, I find that timing to be the crucial difference. I also like the immediacy of FoF's draw power, you can use it to dig instead of just ramp up CA over quite a few turns.

Noted. It is also useful to note that I have better spells to play on turn three, generally also.


Tru dat.

Also, FoF cannot be burned or attacked.

And I think that represents a fundamental difference in the philosophy of people who are playing this deck. There are some people that want to go one-for-one on threats with a bunch of small removal spells, and then there is the group of people who wants to use bigger card-advantage and generally higher cost cards to swing the game. I wonder if finding the distinctions between the sub-types of current Landstill and splitting the lists again would promote growth for both archetypes.

Oddly enough, while building the deck I didn't even think of Landstill...only after I looked at the completed list did I realize the similarities.

For the decks I'm gunning against, the high mana sinks of older Landstills simply didn't have enough power to justify them. Getting four 1/1 tokens and drawing a card is pathetic compared to having a 5/6 for two. Wrath is frequently a one for one against everything except Merfolk, and if you get the point where Wrath is awesome against them, something is going wrong. Eternal Dragon is outclassed by 'Goyf, Crusher, and Thrasher. Standstill has become a liability in quite a few matches. I have been trying to substitute these cards with lower mana (Or at the very least less color intensive) powerful cards, such as Shackles or Scepter. Testing will show which is better in each metagame. Thanks for the responses so far!

- On Scepter - Yes, it's a potential two-for-one. Yes, there are times when it's dead (one of the reasons I'm considering Thirst for Knowledge). However, when unanswered (generally pre-board) a STP/Edict/Chant/Extripate stick is insane.

[konsultant]

I think that represents a fundamental difference in the philosophy of people who are playing this deck. There are some people that want to go one-for-one on threats with a bunch of small removal spells, and then there is the group of people who wants to use bigger card-advantage and generally higher cost cards to swing the game. I wonder if finding the distinctions between the sub-types of current Landstill and splitting the lists again would promote growth for both archetypes.

I would agree with this but it would be very difficult to establish exactly what cards were played in whitch lists. The Speedstill list is obvioulsy the attrition based strategy without Wrath but the slower decks all still run a pile of attrition cards. Regardless the thread is nowhere near as bad as when we had the UW/x lists mixed in with the 4 color deed builds.


So I tested out my experimental list yesterday at a 46 person Mox Saphire event. Regrettably two of the cards I needed for the deck were still in the mail so this isn't the exact build I intended but the 2 Substitutions weren't really that much of a drawback.

MD
3x Brainstorm
3x Standstill
1x Fact or Fiction
1x Jace
3x Counterspell
4x Force of Will
3x Cunning Wish

4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Wrath of God
1x Moat
1x Humility
1x Eternal Dragon
3x Decree of Justice
1x Ajani Goldmane
1x Elspeth

1x Vindicate

2x Engineered Explosives
1x Crucible of Worlds

24x Lands


SB
1x Path of Exile
3x Orim's Chant
1x Pulse of the Fields
1x Return to Dust
1x Fracturing Gust
1x Spell Snare
1x Counterspell
1x Fact or Fiction
1x Extirpate
1x Tsabo's Decree
2x Runed Halo
1x Engineered Explosives

Now like I said this was an expiremental build and I didn't have exactly the cards I wanted but after testing I have been happy with how this build plays out. It does put alot of pressure on you not to make mistakes as the deck is very unforgiving but it usually wins regardless of what your opponent can throw at it.

Round 1 vs Moon Thresh with Counterbalance: lose 1:2

Ok so the deck has two weak spots one being Ichorid and the other being Counterbalance decks that run REB in the SB. Well fuck what a way to kick off the new deck than with it's worst match up. Game one of round one against a bad match up and I get Mana screwed early and lose to CB pretty hard core. Make some small SB changes and ride out the win in game 2 on the back of Moat. Game 3 he drops a turn one Goose and I drop a turn 2 Standstill with Decree and a Third Land in hand, he lets it hit and I'm thinking I have the game about wrapped up when it takes me 12 turns to find my 4th land when I open handed 3. What was looking good turns to shit rapidly and I lose round one. Proceed to shuffle repeatedly.

Round 2 vs F2K9: win 2:0

I doubt anybody else knows what F2K9 is but a fellow team member of mine plays it and it's a 4 color aggro control deck with numerous Plainswalkers. So the day is looking great so far, lose round one and now play my teammate who also lost and rode with me meaning one of us was done for the day after round 2 not to mention he knows my list and plays more Plainswalkers than I do. Game one we go back and forth for the first 7 or 8 turns trying to get some kind of board dominence and with his last card in hand he sticks a Garruck, thankfully on the following turn I stick my last card in hand Moat. By the time he can find his MD Krosan Grip he is too far into the late game and Landstill does what it does best. Game two I gain early card advantage and he is already out of it by turn 10 or so and decides to scoop so we can go smoke.

Round 3 vs Ichorid: win 2:0

So I haven't done any real testing with the deck yet seeing as I've only played a match I don't want to see and my friend who I know my deck can beat already. I remember sitting down for round 3 thinking just give me something to test this list out against, well fuck the kids playing Ichorid. Karma didn't apperar to be on my side so far today until he dredged twenty cards without hitting a Bridge, Narcromeoba or Ichorid. I capitalize on his misfortune and take game one after having time to set up a decent Mana base and drawing multiple Decree's. I have a decent Ichorid match up but it's still something I don't want to run into, do some small SB'ing and I draw up a solid hand while my opponent apparently kept a shaky one. Force of Will on a Putrid Imp followed shortly after by Runed Halo on Ichorid and the games was mine shortly after.

Round 4 vs Nassif's list: win 2:0

I take game one quickly after STPing two Bob's and then wasting a Tropical Island followed with Extirpate on it. He scoops to Extirpate not wanting to show me his deck. I assume at this point that it is either Nassif's exact list or something very close to it. I don't remember a ton about game 2 but I kept Counterbalance out of play and took a quick win.

Round 5 vs Canadian Thresh: win 2:0

God I am so prepared for this match up it is sad, it's also sad that you have come extremely prepared for this deck or you won't beat it. Game one is incredibly in my favor and I take a quick win. Game two he did what that deck does best and drew every card he needed when he needed it including the first turn Goose. He Stifled two EE and Spellsnared two Runed Halo, used a Force of Will to Stop my Force on the Goose initially and to Stop my turn 6 Wrath. He did however run out of steam and when my turn 7 Moat resolved followed by a turn 8 Ajani it was pretty much game over. I think he scooped once my life total got in the 60's.

Round 6 vs Fish/Faeries: lose 1:2

Due to my round one loss I am at the bottom of the tie breakers and am forced to play out round 6 along with my frustrated opponent who could have drawn in. Sadly bad tie breakers was to be the downfall of my day. Game one I open up 2 lands, Waste and Plains, 2 STP, Force, Standstill and Wrath of God. I don't know what I'm playing against but I decide to keep. Well his turn 2 Meddling Mage on STP and me never drawing a third land in 10 turns pretty much ended game one for me. Proceed to shuffle extensivly and remember that I might not have shuffled up the deck after the last round in my haste for nicotine. Take a crushing win in game two and see that he running Faeries with Goyf and Mage. Immediatly from the start of game 3 he begins to slow play. I mean retarded like taking almost two minute's to think about every single spell I have cast and each of his main phases, way to be a douche bag buddy. Regrettably I realize that if we draw he makes top 8 and could care less where I have to win to make it. So I start to play as aggressively as possable making angel tokens and burning counter magic to try and keep them alive but he boarded all of his removal and disruption into the deck with the intent of drawing. I end up losing to a pair of Mutavaults with my resources spent on trying to steal a quick win in time. Lame but I like the deck and if hadn't slow played I am certain that I would have won game 3 playing the deck like it is meant to be played.

Top 16 event for a Mana Drain:

So Eli in his infinite kindness runs a seperate event for top 16 players giving out a Mana Drain to both first and second place, thank you Eli.

Round 1 vs UGR Dreadstill: win 2-0

This is another one of those damn Counterbalance decks that run REB so it isn't my favorite match up but atleast he wasn't trying to sneak in Magus of the Moon or have Goose like the Moon Thresh guy did so the match went pretty smoothly in my favor both games.

Round 2 (Finals of top 16) vs UW Landstill with Mindslaver lock: win 2-1

Well I can't exactly call his deck Landstill but I don't know if Lam Phan has a name for his deck but it played Waste, Factory, Faerie Conclave, Crucible, Mindslaver, Enlightened Tutor, Standstills, Academy Ruins and all sorts of various utility cards that could be played in Landstill. Thank god for no time limit because I think this took us about 2 and a half hours to play out the 3 games. Game one we are both chocking up on excessive craeture removal and he is able to take game one with Mindslaver. I have never played against Lam but I have heard he is really good player so I board carefully and with a set strategy to play against his deck. I am able to Extirpate his Counterspells out and ride a late game Jace for the win. Game 3 he go's to his SB and makes some changes. Apparently he didn't like his chances in the long drawn out control match so he boarded in Exalted Angels and try's for a quick win. I am able to stop two early angel's using everything in my hand except one card and depleting his hand. The one card in my hand, Elspeth for the quick win.

So going 6-2 for the day and winning myself an English Mana Drain I have to say I am quite happy with the list. Regrettably the cards I was missing would have helped in both the rounds I lost but I will have them for the next event since they both came in Saturdays mail, figures.

[rockout]

And really, I can't remember a single game in which I used fof. :confused: So I simply discarded it... The others did well without it, and every time I drew fof has always been a dead card (or a good pitch.)

FOF a dead card? How the ...? FOF says IFUCKINGWINTHEGAMEKTHXBAI.

Geoff, we've lured you to the dark side. Congrats on finally playing Elspeth. The first step to quicker wins and harder to deal with win conditions. The new list is interesting, but the I think more enchantments are needed.

More details to come once I throw it together and test.

[mossivo1986]

I'm not going to say to ANY of u, "I told you so". Hopefully you all get the point. :)

p.s. I feel like a gluttonous asshole right now. muahahaha

[konsultant]

Geoff, we've lured you to the dark side. Congrats on finally playing Elspeth. The first step to quicker wins and harder to deal with win conditions. The new list is interesting, but the I think more enchantments are needed.


I've been running Elspeth in my SB since before the GP, I like the card I just don't like it better than Decree. I think it's is a fantastic suplemental card for Landstill. I doubt I would ever play more than one though.

As to the more Enchantments both of the cards I was missing were Enchantments. I'd say what they were but I may as well save them for the Surprise factor in my next event.

[rockout]

I still don't run cunning wish, probably never will. I remember when you said you would never run vindicate and I remember you calling me saying, "I have to run vindicate now." So, there, "I told you so."

That was to mossivo1986.

Wait, so here is the triangle. I told Konsultant to run Elspeth. Mossivo told Geoff to run Wish. Geoff told me to run Vindicate. I told Mossivo to run Elspeth. Mossivo told me to run Clique. So it's one big love triangle-jerk of landstill genius floating around between us.

[gustha]

FOF a dead card? How the ...? FOF says IFUCKINGWINTHEGAMEKTHXBAI.

That's why I put it in the list :laugh: but I found it of no use, never used once because the top+jace engine works lotta better!
However, bad days to me yesterday (50 or so people tournament). Went 3-3 were I could have done far better: lost to merfolks and belcher, all the times 3 games = 3 mull to 5 :frown: Even the 3rd match vs ichorid would've gone far better if I didn't mull to 5 to see 1 of the 9 cards sided in :cry: The meta has sharply shifted from control (landstill were 35-40% of the field till november) to aggro/aggrocontrol. Yesterday there were (as far as I could saw) one or two aggroloam, some rogue decks, 3 or 4 belcher, zoo, some sligh, white weenie, ichorid, 4-5 threshold. I've been thinking about my list, found wrath and decree to be a little outdated for the actual meta here, and crucible slow but necessary. I really like the speedstill approach which I feel more suited for the decks I've to face, still there's something missing. Some remarks by mossivo (thank you) lead me to think to a "hybrid" version. It's still a draft, so please don't be too cruel :smile: Here's what I have in mind:

// Lands
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [B] Tundra
3 [TE] Wasteland
1 [R] Underground Sea
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [TSP] Swamp (1)
1 [R] Scrubland
2 [APL] Plains (3)
3 [RAV] Island (4)

// Walker, Texas Rangers
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 [LRW] Jace Beleren

// Draw/Tutor Engine
3 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [OD] Standstill
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [ARE] Enlightened Tutor
(also Jace fits in here)

// Removals
1 [A] Nevinyrral's Disk
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [AP] Vindicate
4 [A] Swords to Plowshares
2 [TE] Diabolic Edict

// Permission
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [A] Counterspell

// Other Stuff
1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
1 [TE] Humility
1 [JU] Cunning Wish
1 [MR] Isochron Scepter

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 2 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
-----------
SB: 1 [PS] Orim's Chant
SB: 1 [PLC] Exirpate
SB: 1 [R] Blue Elemental Blast
SN: 1 [CNF] Path to Exile

The landbase is identical with the one I have atm. Maybe the 3 waste slot could be a 1x dust bowl and +2 colored lands, or +1 mishra + 1 colored lands, but I guess that shoul be a meta call, atm it works fine. Brainstorm went down to 3 again to make room for the 4th spell snare (i re-thought about what you told, me, mossivo, and yesterday I really almost always wanted to have the 4th copy). The change from CS to vendilion clique is something I'd like to discuss much further. I fear clique would be good only in a meta full of control and loam decks (is it really so effective against aggro?), which is no more my meta (sigh!), but the potential of the card is something about I'd really want suggestions. This, however, leads to a very consistent 4/4/2 split, likely to be effective when facing low cc and counterbalance! Enlightened tutor covers an important role, allowing us to access what we need when we need it, or at least virtually doubling our tools. Is not a secret that it's a powerful card, maybe it's time to get him back. It also gives another chance to 1x crucible, card I really am not likely to separate from. The removal tools proudly welcome diabolic edict, while path to exile remains sb, and see vindicate cut to 2x. I've medited alot on this, and I'd really want there be a open slot to fit the 3rd vindicate, because it's a fantastic card. The reason of this cut is the coming back of a singleton cunning wish, which fetches utilities from the sb and it's amazing if paired with the stick. A good target of etutor is obviously, in fact, isochron scepter. I thought about a singleton vedalken shackles, but I think stick is more powerful especially preboard, when usually there's no answer to it. wish + orim + stick is capable of stopping aggro fairly enough, but we also have plenty of cards to imprint on it: CS, stp, diabolic edict. In case of need, even etutor. As a 1 of, it's never a dead card, as for wish. Probably, we might fix the weight of the wish-still/vindicate-still approach in the sb. In a meta full of combo maybe -3 mage +3 orim's chant is a better call then the actual. However, wish gives access to a small toolbox that doesn't steal too much room, making stick a good weapon also postboard.

Tx for the reading, please don't trow objects at me :laugh:

[mossivo1986]

I still don't run cunning wish, probably never will. I remember when you said you would never run vindicate and I remember you calling me saying, "I have to run vindicate now." So, there, "I told you so."

That was to mossivo1986.

Wait, so here is the triangle. I told Konsultant to run Elspeth. Mossivo told Geoff to run Wish. Geoff told me to run Vindicate. I told Mossivo to run Elspeth. Mossivo told me to run Clique. So it's one big love triangle-jerk of landstill genius floating around between us.

I think you may be very right about the 61 being a land. My land drops have been perfect today. I added a delta to my list.

For referance:


// Lands
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
4 [B] Tundra
1 [B] Underground Sea
1 [B] Scrubland
3 [GUR] Island
3 [GUR] Plains
3 [JGC] Mishra's Factory
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins

// Creatures
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant

// Spells
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [TE] Humility
2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [OD] Standstill
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
1 [DD2] Fact or Fiction
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
2 [6E] Wrath of God

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [TSP] Return to Dust
SB: 1 [SHM] Fracturing Gust
SB: 1 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 1 [IA] Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 2 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane

[rockout]

Mossivo: I think the exact number increase is 5.9% but I am on my lunch break. I'll have to actually do the math the confirm the percentage increase.

[Ectoplasm]

To Konsultant: Did you ever get the Elspeth + Ajani tagteam on the table? It should be marvelous.

[Citrus-God]

Mossivo: So... you're actually running CoP:R now? What made you do that?

[mossivo1986]

Some Crazy bitch told me to run it. aka I mentioned it in Post 1407

[Citrus-God]

Some Crazy bitch told me to run it. aka I mentioned it in Post 1407

Flattering.

[mossivo1986]

Flattering.

Oh I was just kidding, don't take it personally. You convinced me to run it because of the rediculous number of krosan grips were playing against in the green matchups anyways.

[Elf_Ascetic]

Ok, the posts before aren't superclear, but if I'm reading right one or two of you guys have introduced a 61th card in this deck. My team has tested and discussed a 61th card in Ubg Giftstill al lot, and I think the arguments for this build are the same.


61th cards makes only sense if you're playing a toolbox deck (this is not) and the one silver bullet makes you win more then you lose by drawing that card instead of the next, good card.

The other argument to run 61th cards is to fix the ratio's between kill/counter/removal/land/card advantage.

For any well built deck, the last one doesn't apply. For this deck, the first one doesn't apply. Therefor, 61 cards is in this situation very bad. Or at least, 60 cards is better. Even with our Gifts/silver bullet deck, we concluded 60 cards are just better. If you're having trouble with hitting lands, I suggest you take a look at my (and my team's) build.

3 Strand
3 Delta
2 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Dust Bowl
1 Academy Ruins
1 Tolaria West

1 Eternal Dragon
2 Elspeth
1 Decree of Justice
1 Crucible of Worlds

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell
4 Swords to plowshares
3 Wrath of God
3 Vindicate
2 Engineered Explosives

SB:
2 Ajani Goldmane
3 Relic
3 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Meddling Mage
3 Engineered Plague or Hydroblast/BEB

[mossivo1986]

Ok, the posts before aren't superclear, but if I'm reading right one or two of you guys have introduced a 61th card in this deck. My team has tested and discussed a 61th card in Ubg Giftstill al lot, and I think the arguments for this build are the same.


61th cards makes only sense if you're playing a toolbox deck (this is not) and the one silver bullet makes you win more then you lose by drawing that card instead of the next, good card.

The other argument to run 61th cards is to fix the ratio's between kill/counter/removal/land/card advantage.

For any well built deck, the last one doesn't apply. For this deck, the first one doesn't apply. Therefor, 61 cards is in this situation very bad. Or at least, 60 cards is better. Even with our Gifts/silver bullet deck, we concluded 60 cards are just better. If you're having trouble with hitting lands, I suggest you take a look at my (and my team's) build.

3 Strand
3 Delta
2 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Dust Bowl
1 Academy Ruins
1 Tolaria West

1 Eternal Dragon
2 Elspeth
1 Decree of Justice
1 Crucible of Worlds

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell
4 Swords to plowshares
3 Wrath of God
3 Vindicate
2 Engineered Explosives

SB:
2 Ajani Goldmane
3 Relic
3 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Meddling Mage
3 Engineered Plague or Hydroblast/BEB

The argument for a 61's card in our case "what we are talking about" is that theres a 5% jump in land consistency from 60-61 "61st card being a land." In my case I run 22 land, and a 5% jump would help the consistency of my deck tremendously. So if the theory is correct, and I havent been mana screwed at all so far, then 61 is the correct number for my deck.

[sauce]

cop:r is good vs progenitus and burn, so why not. :)

[Citrus-God]

cop:r is good vs progenitus and burn, so why not. :)

That the argument used to refute the power of CoP: R is Krosan Grip when you have a bajillion other threats in play like Ajani.

[Elf_Ascetic]

The argument for a 61's card in our case "what we are talking about" is that theres a 5% jump in land consistency from 60-61 "61st card being a land." In my case I run 22 land, and a 5% jump would help the consistency of my deck tremendously. So if the theory is correct, and I havent been mana screwed at all so far, then 61 is the correct number for my deck.

You're wrong. By playing 23 land in 60 cards, you're even more consistent. I'm sure there is another "worst card" in your deck than that delta. The 61th card isn't a land, it's a Wish, or a Fact or Fiction, or the 3th Explosives, or a relic, or a top, or Humility. 61 cards are almost always (I stated the exeptions before) worse then 60 cards.

I strongly advocate playing more lands in landstill, but since you removed a still also in your list, you're moving away from the concept of landstill anyway.. I run 24 lands, and a dragon, I almost never have manaissues.

I'm not sure if I like V. Clique. I'm lookig for some anti-ANT tech (other than the Sculler/MMage+Ajani board) and I think Clique is that tech. But in other matchups, I fear for a dead card. It's not good in the Agromatchups, or is it? I didn't test with it yet.

[mossivo1986]

You're wrong. By playing 23 land in 60 cards, you're even more consistent. I'm sure there is another "worst card" in your deck than that delta. The 61th card isn't a land, it's a Wish, or a Fact or Fiction, or the 3th Explosives, or a relic, or a top, or Humility. 61 cards are almost always (I stated the exeptions before) worse then 60 cards.


Obviously playing 23 lands in 60 would be more consistent, but when you play this list you will quickly understand that playing 23 in 60 isn't really an option. Break down the deck, you'll see it for yourself. Also to note: I don't need an additional toolbox card, so it doesn't really help me under the current circumstances. My split betweeen removal/draw/win-cons/permission is a perfect 10, and the utility is 4 where I absolutely love it.

I strongly advocate playing more lands in landstill, but since you removed a still also in your list, you're moving away from the concept of landstill anyway.. I run 24 lands, and a dragon, I almost never have manaissues.

The average amount of land in landstill is 23, I was playing 22. The only reason I changed was to suit mws shuffler, and its been amazing. If you'd like to go into a deeper analysis the average cc of my deck is something like 2.2 or 2.4 I can't remember. Most landstill decks "take for example konsultant's" is something like 2.7 I think Rockout gave me that little factoid. This allows me to get away with running a lower land count, as well as the simple fact that I run more early kantrips then most models. Also to note, in case you missed it most landstill models are cutting to 3 standstills and a fourth bigger draw spell that either acts as a win condition "jace" or a reactionary spell "fact or fiction."

I understand you run the equivalent of 25 lands, which is terrible; but that's ok, because its how you want to play your model. I guarantee you none of the regulars here; including I would MORE THEN LIKELY ever run 25 lands. Its simply a waste of extra gas that could be in your hand.


I'm not sure if I like V. Clique. I'm lookig for some anti-ANT tech (other than the Sculler/MMage+Ajani board) and I think Clique is that tech. But in other matchups, I fear for a dead card. It's not good in the Agromatchups, or is it? I didn't test with it yet.

All i'm going to say is read the past couple of discussions on here about clique. It's amazing, and I'm not going into it again. For referance see rockout.

[Ziilot]

Ok, the posts before aren't superclear, but if I'm reading right one or two of you guys have introduced a 61th card in this deck. My team has tested and discussed a 61th card in Ubg Giftstill al lot, and I think the arguments for this build are the same.


61th cards makes only sense if you're playing a toolbox deck (this is not) and the one silver bullet makes you win more then you lose by drawing that card instead of the next, good card.

The other argument to run 61th cards is to fix the ratio's between kill/counter/removal/land/card advantage.

For any well built deck, the last one doesn't apply. For this deck, the first one doesn't apply. Therefor, 61 cards is in this situation very bad. Or at least, 60 cards is better. Even with our Gifts/silver bullet deck, we concluded 60 cards are just better. If you're having trouble with hitting lands, I suggest you take a look at my (and my team's) build.

3 Strand
3 Delta
2 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Dust Bowl
1 Academy Ruins
1 Tolaria West

1 Eternal Dragon
2 Elspeth
1 Decree of Justice
1 Crucible of Worlds

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell
4 Swords to plowshares
3 Wrath of God
3 Vindicate
2 Engineered Explosives

SB:
2 Ajani Goldmane
3 Relic
3 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Meddling Mage
3 Engineered Plague or Hydroblast/BEB

I played very similar list last saturday.

Instead
-1 polluted delta
-1 dust bowl
-1 tolarian west
-1 academy ruins
-1 eternal dragon
-1 wrath of god
+3 wasteland
+2 humility
+1 sensei's divining top

I wasn't very satisfied with fact or fictions so I'm thinking cutting one for another top (which was mvp btw). It was pretty small tournament, only 23 players and I ended up being fifth with 3-0-2 record.

I won scepterchant, dreaded fish and goblins, tied with baseruption (0-0 lol) and domain zoo.

[mossivo1986]

I talked with Dif briefly yesterday and he mentioned that I should strongly consider 4x top. This goes against all logic in my opinion, but I want to listen to the arguments. If this logic is true then landstill definitely needs to run additional fetches (moss) as well as a dragon. (Dif.) I'm not sure exactly how I feel about this like I said and it really bugs me so i'd figure I'd throw it out there to dif/konsultants/ citrus.

[gustha]

I talked with Dif briefly yesterday and he mentioned that I should strongly consider 4x top. This goes against all logic in my opinion, but I want to listen to the arguments. If this logic is true then landstill definitely needs to run additional fetches (moss) as well as a dragon. (Dif.) I'm not sure exactly how I feel about this like I said and it really bugs me so i'd figure I'd throw it out there to dif/konsultants/ citrus.

Damn, you just said to me that 3 tops was too much and dragon sucks!:laugh: Talking about cunning landstill, I think that 3 top is fairly good (it has a longer game plan than speedstill). You were right that maybe 3 sucks in my list because my approach is much similar to speedstill, thought. (Look back a page or two to some of my consideration for a new list, I'd really like some comments and more insight on clique, in case PM me fif you don't mind, tx).

[3duece]

4 tops seems quite overkill, especially without counterbalance plus you actually have to find room for them (cutting more brainstorms is awful) AND run more fetches which this deck doesn't need and opens us up to stifle. Maybe I'm way off, but I don't like it.

So, I was thinking that maybe tidehollow sculler is quite a strong card in legacy. Have the folks who are playing 'speedstill' or whatever tried this guy in the main? I've wanted to cut wrath from my list since I added vindicate and sculler seems like a good card in it's stead, especially for the 1-for-1 style of deck speedstill can be. This is my current list with the sculler change:
4 flooded strand
4 tundra
2 underground sea
1 scrubland
3 island
3 plains
4 mishra's factory
3 wasteland

4 standstill
4 brainstorm
1 fact or fiction
2 counterspell
4 force of will
4 spell snare

4 swords to plowshares
3 vindicate
3 engineered explosives
3 tidehollow sculler
2 elspeth, knight errant
1 decree of justice
1 crucible of worlds

What do you guys think? Absolutely awful? It obviously improves ANT game 1 but has numerous other applications. And unlike rock and deadguy we can actively protect him. Seems good to me, but let me know your thoughts.:)

[rockout]

Fun fact 001: the average cmc of my deck is 2.51

[Citrus-God]

Running Tops also allows you to board in Counterbalance. Another strong reason to include SDTs. Another thing I have issues with is that when Landstill is topdecking, it tends to have issues finding ways to get itself back into the game or get the right filtered cards.

Sensei's Divining Tops are good, for sure. In it's place, extra Cunning Wishes and Fact or Fictions tend to serve the same purpose. They're all valid ways to get yourself back into the game and find the answers you need. I think you need to test 4 Tops. While playing Threshold, I always liked seeing extra Tops; so strongly consider the 4 SDT idea - heck, even 3 SDTs are worth considering.

[mossivo1986]

Damn, you just said to me that 3 tops was too much and dragon sucks!:laugh: Talking about cunning landstill, I think that 3 top is fairly good (it has a longer game plan than speedstill). You were right that maybe 3 sucks in my list because my approach is much similar to speedstill, thought. (Look back a page or two to some of my consideration for a new list, I'd really like some comments and more insight on clique, in case PM me fif you don't mind, tx).

I still hate dragon and I think that running 3 tops is not a good idea. I stand by my opinion. But if theres a way to make it work more efficiently in a faster paced landstill model that doesn't get hindered by multiple tops then yes I do believe its a possibility.

Sorry for the confusion, and there is always the strong possibility of me being wrong in alot of cases. I am not always right; just most of the time. :)

[Misplayer]

If you're running 3+ Tops then what is the logic behind having Counterbalance sideboard? CB/Top dominates the format, if it's good out of the board then I see no reason not to run it maindeck. Adding 4 cards to get one of the most potent combos in the format seems worthwhile to me. Not doing it is like running Painter's Servant without Grindstone on the basis that Grindstone doesn't fit within the strategy of your deck (assuming Painter's Servant somehow does, but you know what I'm saying)

[Elf_Ascetic]

I understand you run the equivalent of 25 lands, which is terrible; but that's ok, because its how you want to play your model. I guarantee you none of the regulars here; including I would MORE THEN LIKELY ever run 25 lands. Its simply a waste of extra gas that could be in your hand.


Well, this list, this manabase perfectly suits my metagame: Agro (mostly Goblins and Goyf Sligh), Canadian Thresh, Dreadstill, Merfolk, Rock, Survival, Loam, and some ANT. You see, a lot of wastelands flouting around. Looking at your list, I think you have the luck of seeing much more CBThresh or Baseruption. I hope you understand it isn't terrible, it's a nessisary evil. I'm almost never manaflooded, always have a use for it, or I brainstorm it away.

If you design decklists so that they work with the MWS shuffler, that's ok, I prefer lists that work irl in tournaments I attend. I'm still jealous on the way you managed to sqeeze the third spell snare in. As you can see, it's pretty good in my meta, but I didn't manage to find a slot. Any advice?

This deck is probably the most tunable deck, depending on playstyle, metagame and personal flavor, so I'll stop the discussion about your list now, 'cause I don't know what you're facing on a regular basis.

[gustha]

If you're running 3+ Tops then what is the logic behind having Counterbalance sideboard? CB/Top dominates the format, if it's good out of the board then I see no reason not to run it maindeck. Adding 4 cards to get one of the most potent combos in the format seems worthwhile to me. Not doing it is like running Painter's Servant without Grindstone on the basis that Grindstone doesn't fit within the strategy of your deck (assuming Painter's Servant somehow does, but you know what I'm saying)

I think the comparison is a little weak. Servant/grindstone is a combo that acts as a wincodition, cb top is not, obviously. The main reason is that decks packing cb top engine, like, said threshold, have enough slots to pack also an aggressive part, which standstill obviously doesn't have. Running 4 cb is, imho, absolutely a waste of slots, and a pain to fit the curve enough to get control of everything. Always ihmo, cb is a good sb strategy (although I prefer mage + halo) against decks with a low mana curve that are a pain in the ass for us (burn, some combo, etc.). Now, landstill has a metadependant component for sure: if I playd in a control-combo-burn meta i'd maybe try to sneak 4 cb MD. But atm, I see no room for it, especially if we're talking about speedstill approach. As for the 3 tops, I run 5 fetches and crucible (no random slot now that I got back to a singleton etutor), and I assure I have never had problems with the 3rd copy. Especially if you plan to cast an early standstill, top is amazing as your first-second turn spell; having 3 copies, you aren't afraid to burn away one with a EE@1 without losing a turn because you switched the first card for saving your top. In every case, the earlier you see it, the happiest you'll be, believe me. I recently cut 1 because i got back to etutor and to 1 cwish (as citrus-god pointed out, top and cwish play a similar role).

I still hate dragon and I think that running 3 tops is not a good idea. I stand by my opinion. But if theres a way to make it work more efficiently in a faster paced landstill model that doesn't get hindered by multiple tops then yes I do believe its a possibility.

Sorry for the confusion, and there is always the strong possibility of me being wrong in alot of cases. I am not always right; just most of the time. :)
Man, I like your stile! :) As I said, I believe that 3 tops are best suited for a longer game plan like that of cunning landstill. But if the testing with the 1 etutor+1stick+1cunningwish fails, I'd surely got immediately back to 3 tops+3 vindicate (1 top's gone for stick, 1 vindi's gone for wish).

Coming back to the previous discussion, I see clique being good in merfolk MU and control MU (and loam too, ofc). Not seeing it lotta good against goblin and elvescombo, and maybe a little slow against other combo. more testing and impression needed.

[mossivo1986]

I hope you understand it isn't terrible, it's a nessisary evil. I'm almost never manaflooded, always have a use for it, or I brainstorm it away.
I do understand that; but at the same time I find that anything over 23 land really floods my draws, even with braintstorms. If I would reccomend anything as far as dodging wasteland/stifle it is this, the best playable base for me has always looked like this:

4 flooded
1 delta (MAYBE, but it's not neccesary.)
3 island
3 plains
3 mishra's

Obviously there are different variations, but i've had the most success with this.


If you design decklists so that they work with the MWS shuffler, that's ok, I prefer lists that work irl in tournaments I attend.

I stated this incorrectly. The list I play has had no real mana problems per say. Obviously I mull. hands as a normal player would due to lack of color or lack of general lands. Generally it happens to everyone (obv. extremely rarely to 43.dec) but the thing to note is that the added fetch was basicly to add to my already solid base as a 61st land. So far its been working but its obviously an experiment.


I'm still jealous on the way you managed to sqeeze the third spell snare in. As you can see, it's pretty good in my meta, but I didn't manage to find a slot. Any advice?

Well, you could show me a list in private messege if you feel more comfortable and I can break it down for you. Just note that my theory and playstyle is obviously not the same as yours, but I will do my best to help you if needed.


This deck is probably the most tunable deck, depending on playstyle, metagame and personal flavor, so I'll stop the discussion about your list now, 'cause I don't know what you're facing on a regular basis.

I tune for generalized meta-games outside of tournaments. When I go to a tournament I judge while i'm there. I like my sideboard however as I find its incredible against most of the field that I have played against. 3


gustha
Thanx for the quote.

[NQN]

I´ve tested 3 tops for a while now and I´m just amazed. It´s like, If i land a top at the beginning, I win. This is especially true against tempo-decks and suicide-style deck. I think I´ll try out a fourth one, it fit´s to my Tfk`s as well.:wink:

[gustha]

I´ve tested 3 tops for a while now and I´m just amazed. It´s like, If i land a top at the beginning, I win. This is especially true against tempo-decks and suicide-style deck. I think I´ll try out a fourth one, it fit´s to my Tfk`s as well.:wink:

It's the same feeling I had when playing 3... however, in a very aggressive meta like mine atm, i prefer 2 tops and more reactive spells. T1's best spell there should be EE@1/brainstorm. However, in a slower meta, 3 top is absolutely amazing...

@moss: you're welcome! :wink:

edit: i was looking the ARB spoiler and saw this
Mistwalker Behemoth* 1gu
Creature - Beast Uncommon
When Mistwalker Behemoth comes into play, return a creature you control to its owner's hand.
5/6
First turn hierarch, second turn this/first turn mongoose 3rd turn this...hello new tarmo without threshold problems! if you add the 2/2 that becomes 5/5 when the oppo brainstorms, we are to face hard times i suppose...

[mossivo1986]

It's the same feeling I had when playing 3... however, in a very aggressive meta like mine atm, i prefer 2 tops and more reactive spells. T1's best spell there should be EE@1/brainstorm. However, in a slower meta, 3 top is absolutely amazing...

@moss: you're welcome! :wink:

edit: i was looking the ARB spoiler and saw this
Mistwalker Behemoth* 1gu
Creature - Beast Uncommon
When Mistwalker Behemoth comes into play, return a creature you control to its owner's hand.
5/6
First turn hierarch, second turn this/first turn mongoose 3rd turn this...hello new tarmo without threshold problems! if you add the 2/2 that becomes 5/5 when the oppo brainstorms, we are to face hard times i suppose...

And apparently not only does landstill not longer run swords to set our opponents two additional turns back; but we also get raped by creatures that have large bodies and no relevant abilities.

Come on bro, seriously? You know better than that.

[gustha]

And apparently not only does landstill not longer run swords to set our opponents two additional turns back; but we also get raped by creatures that have large bodies and no relevant abilities.

Come on bro, seriously? You know better than that.

:wink: It was only a first time impression, I imagined an army of tarmo's and these things... Been thinking about Wiz is printing too much fatties (which aren't that bad) in color for threshold than decent removals for landstill (and we have "only" 4 swords, and progenitus to care about). A t2 this, is in the comparison a more impressive clock than tarmo (and a higher life gain for the oppo if we sword him), and evades EE@2. Not something as impressive as a t2 progenitus, and maybe not as good as tarmo; the problem is not he himself alone but he+tarmo+progenitus (versions which run it)+y etc. The overall picture frightened me for awhile, before turning to the reformation of Hegel's dialectic (which is far more impressive!). :laugh: It's just another no-sense fattie.

EDIT: no alarm, though. Here's the fixed text:
Nulltread Gargantuan
Creature - Beast
When Nulltread Gargantuan comes into play, return a creature you control to the top of its owner's library.
5/6
Just a useless uncommon.

[mossivo1986]

First things first. I've been in the computer lab for my college for about 24 hours in the past week and i've not only managed to get alot of work done for school, but i've also been able to "test the top."

In all of my testing 4 tops just simply were too many. Either I recieved multiples, or I wasn't able to shuffle away "5 fetches and a dragon with four tops." So I went down to 3 cutting the delta and dragon, and this is where I stand.


// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
4 [B] Tundra
1 [B] Underground Sea
1 [B] Scrubland
3 [GUR] Island
3 [GUR] Plains
3 [JGC] Mishra's Factory
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
1 [MM] Dust Bowl

// Creatures
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique

// Spells
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [TE] Humility
2 [6E] Wrath of God
2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [OD] Standstill
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [TSP] Return to Dust
SB: 1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [SHM] Fracturing Gust
SB: 1 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 1 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [IA] Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 2 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane

Currently my draw in the deck looks like this:

4 brainstorm
3 top
3 standstill

I'm going to be testing:
3 brainstom
3 top
3 standstill
1 jace

I'd like to think jace is going to surve as actual win condition number 10, vs tolaria west which works as a tutor. Not so good. haha.

Anyways the other half of this is that jace is incramentally better with top then fact or fiction as far as consistent deck manipulation, but I don't know how good its going to be in the words of wisdom type effect it brings to the table. Who knows.

Any thoughts of jace?

Another thought i've been having is to ditch plague for mm but every time I think about it bad things happen to my games on mws :(.

-moss

[Elf_Ascetic]

I found Jace rather disapointing, comparing to FoF. I made T4 with Speedstill the other day, but Jace won me only the games I would have won with FoF also, while FoF would have won me much more. Jace as a wincondition is a utopia.

[Tinefol]

Don't be too quick on Jace. Its really viable, and even moreso as win condition.

Oftentimes its the only reasonable victory plan we have in late game against decks that finally fueled their engines (like loam, other control decks and even survival). You don't always win it outright (say opponent is able to get rid of your other win conditions), and when they go off with their card advantage engines... Jace shines. You only have to hold even for a few turns, and then it just wins the game.

[gustha]

I run:
3 brainstorm
2 sdt
3 standstill
2 jace

I used 3 since mossivo told me to go down by 2, and that was the case he proves wrong :laugh: Just kidding, don't blame me.:tongue: I just finished talking with a friend of mine, who also plays standstill (no vindicate nor wish, a more "classic" UWb list) that tried to show me how fof was superior to jace. I just said to him: firstly, that I don't fuckin' mind! :laugh: No, seriously. He pointed out a good thing: jace sucks mainly against aggrodeck with lots of pressure, because of the fact that you have to tap yourself out to play him. (However, it must be admitted, from now on the game is a downhill.) What I was trying to say when I explained why I used 3 sdt, and what I was trying to say when I said that fof is a dead card with jace + top engine, is that the card advantage provided by jace is absolutely superior to the boost given by fof. Yes, fof doesn't require us to tap out. But fof gives us 2-3 cards in a turn, and lets inevitably something going to the grave. Jace gives us two cards PER TURN (the additional draw and its ability), which, COMBINED WITH TOP that provides deck manipulation, is like a brainstorm or two every turn (we can switch top for the top card of our library, for example). So, a a mid-late game draw engine, the constant support of jace is ihmo far better then the one-shoot boost of fof. However, as said, jace in 2 copies sucks against aggro/aggrocontrol and combo (most of the times is a "1UU: cicle jace"). And since that is a relevant part of the meta nowadays, I plan to cut 1 jace to get back 1 top, to use jace as a late game draw engine. Since I am moving towards a more declarated speedstill approach, it's wise to keep mana open for awhile and then, when running out of gas, casting jace. So the final configuration would be:
3 brainstorm
3 standstill
3 top
1 jace

oh, curiously... seems like mossivo had the same idea :tongue: I think this configuration is optimal for a list like yours, that tends to have a longer game plan (bu I already said that). Jace + top is insane as draw engine. The only question is how many jace? I think 1 would do for cunning landstill. I'll test 1 my the speedstill approach, but with the board clear I think there may be no reasons to not run 2 again.

[rbpong721]

@ Mossivo: About the 2x Relics, are those a meta call and could they be replaced with something else? Also, considering your running 3 top, is their any way to sneak in at least 2 CB anywhere?

[mossivo1986]

@ Mossivo: About the 2x Relics, are those a meta call and could they be replaced with something else?

To be short and sweet relic of progenitis is simply amazing pre-board. The worst thing about it could be the kantrip effect it has for two mana but I personally feel much safer having the ability to stop graveyard shenanigans. It's also better then vindicate because of the same kantrip effect against tarmogoyf/ jotun grunt. It makes vendillion clique twice as good against life from the loam, because they never know which angle your going to attack it from.

*Vindicate is the only other option but it fucks up your landbase and also has no kantrip effect. This is a serious problem; though im deffinately not banging on vindicate, I am saying that its rough.


Also, considering your running 3 top, is their any way to sneak in at least 2 CB anywhere?

Um.....

4 brainstorm
4 swords
4 snare
3 top
2 relic

hmm, 17 1 drops. Im thinking no. But this is one of the best decks against counterbalance that I have played for this reason:

4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
3 EE +Academy ruins
2 Wish - Return 2 dust or even fracturing gust :_)

[rbpong721]

@ Mossivo: You do have a point about CB, thank you for explaining it. Also, what about adding Extirpate to the wish board or do you find all you need to do is fight through one CB and the rest of the game is yours?

Also, if you don't mind, how does two SdT work when two are in play to give card advantage? I think I may using them in the wrong way that is why I asked.

[mossivo1986]

@ Mossivo: You do have a point about CB, thank you for explaining it. Also, what about adding Extirpate to the wish board or do you find all you need to do is fight through one CB and the rest of the game is yours?

The first counterbalance is obviously the hardest, but after that it still sucks; which is why you have the utility that you do, to make it as easy as possible.

*Extirpate is in the wishboard.



Also, if you don't mind, how does two SdT work when two are in play to give card advantage? I think I may using them in the wrong way that is why I asked.


You are using them wrong if your using more then one in a ca sense. Top works best at smoothing card draws and cheating consistent draws. It makes decks that normally stall, quickly reastablish their threats because it says take the best card of your top 3 and draw it. This severly rigs the ratios.

[Citrus-God]

@ Mossivo: You do have a point about CB, thank you for explaining it. Also, what about adding Extirpate to the wish board or do you find all you need to do is fight through one CB and the rest of the game is yours?

Also, if you don't mind, how does two SdT work when two are in play to give card advantage? I think I may using them in the wrong way that is why I asked.

It's generally when you need something, you use the Top for it's "draw ability." Like, you tend to shuffle cards around with Top and just draw it out of the draw step. Usually you keep multiples in play so that you can use cards on top of your library, be in the clear against discard and make "combo" plays, such as "WoG + Standstill."

If you run counters, you can also "draw" in response to a card while on the stack and bluff a Stifle out to hit your Top while still holding a counter in your hand to counter that threat in play or something.


Edit: Counterbalance should only be boarded in. You board it in against decks you have trouble against, like Aggro Loam, Combo, Burn and etc...
Boarding Counterbalance in should only be against decks that are mal prepared against you. Also, you run enough 3c cards to justify boarding it in against the face of opposing Krosan Grips. I obviously wont be boarding Counterbalance in against decks like NLU and Threshold though, mainly because you win those match ups by being Landstill, not a Counterbalance UW Control deck.

[rbpong721]

Hm.. so which one of it's abilities should I be using? The draw or look at the top three cards? EoT I usually use the look at top three to rig my draw step. Am I using it correctly that way?

@ Ciritus: Won't you use the "look at top 3" to rig the draw step though or is that tap to draw a card more important?

[Citrus-God]

@ Ciritus: Won't you use the "look at top 3" to rig the draw step though or is that tap to draw a card more important?

Depends on your match up. If you're playing against a deck with maindeck discard, I tend to keep my cards on top so I can "Top" into it. If it's like a control mirror or I need land drops, I'll rig the draw step.

[mossivo1986]

After some additional playtesting:

-1 Delta
-1 Brainstorm

+1 Jace
Back down to 60 cards.

// Lands
1 [B] Underground Sea
1 [B] Scrubland
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [B] Tundra
3 [GUR] Island
3 [GUR] Plains
3 [JGC] Mishra's Factory
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [MM] Dust Bowl

// Creatures
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 [LRW] Jace Beleren

// Spells
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
1 [TE] Humility
2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
3 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [OD] Standstill
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [B] Wrath of God

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [SHM] Fracturing Gust
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [TSP] Return to Dust
SB: 1 [IA] Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 1 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 1 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 1 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
SB: 3 [7E] Engineered Plague

[Misplayer]

Mossivo, I have to wonder what your playtesting consists of and how you're drawing your results from it, as it appears that your builds just vacillate between 4-5 cards. Notably, you adamantly argued for 61 cards with the extra land citing how much more consistent it made the deck. Now, due to "playtesting", you're back to 60, cutting a land and a 1cc land finder (Brainstorm) for a 3cc card. Also, this:

Isn't Brainstorm the best draw spell in the format? Why would you play 3x when its restricted in vintage for being too powerfull?

Don't these changes also go completely against the concept of consistency that you were preaching in recent posts? If you're just playing a buttload of games on MWS and adjusting your build accordingly, does that really help Landstill progress as an archetype? I'd be interested to know what matchups these decisions improve and what they weaken, and what the goal of these constant changes is, as Landstill's customizable nature should make every individual's build heavily meta-dependent. If you could include specific matchups that card exclusions/inclusions improve/worsen that would be EXTREMELY helpful, especially for anyone who is trying to customize Landstill to their metagame.

I understand you're trying different things to tune your list up, but you write-off other people's suggestions as nonsense and then make the changes yourself and we're all supposed to go along with it. I respect the fact that you have more experience with UWx Landstill than many in this thread, but you seem to be the first one to explain why someone else's list is subpar, defend your list to the death, and then completely reverse on the situation. This is probably coming off as me being a dick, but I'd just like to see the quality of the posts in this thread lean more towards ideas and concepts for improving the deck, especially on a match-up by match-up basis. This is one of the most active threads on The Source but so much of what has been posted in here is fodder, how much has this deck actually improved in the last 5 pages?

Ok, I'm done bitching. Not looking to offend, just looking to get more out of this thread. Peace.

[rockout]

The troops are rallying Joel. Time to whip out the numbers.

[mossivo1986]

Mossivo, I have to wonder what your playtesting consists of and how you're drawing your results from it, as it appears that your builds just vacillate between 4-5 cards.

Without completely flaming you back for this pretty rude statement I guess I will answer you with the following.

One thing that I do that no one else in this thread does in particular is follow most of the top land still lists (Performance wise) that are truly relevant in the current metagame. Now when I say follow, I guess the proper name would be track. I have taken the time to not only research these players lists, but I also talk to them on a regular basis over the phone and have developed friendships with many of them. This is a much different approach then say you probably have misplayer, because much like you I get to play test the same lists, but when I get said list and start asking questions I get the answers and am not left in the cold. This not only helps me understand where said situation comes up with said list; but it also gives me a much more in depth analysis on why I should/ shouldn't play a card given the strengths of said model of land still.


Notably, you adamantly argued for 61 cards with the extra land citing how much more consistent it made the deck. Now, due to "playtesting", you're back to 60, cutting a land and a 1cc land finder (Brainstorm) for a 3cc card.

Notably I'm also at 3 top so any confusion about 1cc landfinders should be just fine as I run 6 of them :). Also, the 61st card being a land turned out to be not as relavent as I originally thought. It was good, but in the 15 games I tested with it, I needed additional time with it, and over the past 30 it hasn;t been nearly as good. With that said the final conclusion is no, not necessary. Also keep in mind that i've been fiddling around between 3-4 Tops to figure out if 3, or 4 was a correct number. Turns out another argument I was wrong in.


Also, this:
Don't these changes also go completely against the concept of consistency that you were preaching in recent posts?

I would argue that the recent changes I have brought to the model I currently pilot improve the consistency 10 fold. I would also argue that adding jace to this model makes winning about 3x easier in most matchups, as you no longer need to find a win condition/draw spell/ removal as they all come to you at once. The addition of the third top can only bring additional consistency that Im really not sure I completely understand what you mean. The fourth spell snare is completely a legitimate call as almost everything is running

counterbalance
dark confidant
Goyf
Burning wish
counterspell
survival of the fittest.

all of which you want to take card of while its still on the stack and not resolving.


If you're just playing a buttload of games on MWS and adjusting your build accordingly, does that really help Landstill progress as an archetype?

I play mws for fun but don't be jaded by me talking about mws. I do have a testing crew, a group of around 30 or so members. Two from each of the DTB sections and some from the Established decks on the source. I keep these names on my aim account and from time to time I hit a different person up every now an then. It's a really handy resource to have at will and its how I generally get all of my results.


I'd be interested to know what matchups these decisions improve and what they weaken, and what the goal of these constant changes is, as Landstill's customizable nature should make every individual's build heavily meta-dependent.

Well to be fair theres always going to be customizable changes. My specific models changes have recently slightly weakened my combo matchup further. It's probobly somewhere around 30-70 at this point with jace in the mix, and my stax matchup as well as affinity matchups have increased lately because of fracturing gust in the sb. These two specific matchups are easy as care to spot on t1 so if your on the draw you can immediately go for your WWW manabase that you need. As for the actualy metagame i'm sure my dreadstill matchup has slightly decreased because I have recently taken out runed halo, i'm sure RDW's is also happy about that as well. But honestly the recent changes have basicly allowed me to bring my numbers even closer then they were before as well as offer me a truly significant win condition that allows me to do what landstill does best. Draw cards and play cheap removal spells.


If you could include specific match ups that card exclusions/inclusions improve/worsen that would be EXTREMELY helpful, especially for anyone who is trying to customize Landstill to their metagame.

I've done this before in different sections, and I have a full match up listing of all my testing results against competent pilots and their respectable archtypes on my computer that doesn't have internet, in fact im borrowingv this one to reply to you haha :).



I understand you're trying different things to tune your list up, but you write-off other people's suggestions as nonsense and then make the changes yourself and we're all supposed to go along with it. I respect the fact that you have more experience with UWx Landstill than many in this thread, but you seem to be the first one to explain why someone else's list is subpar,
defend your list to the death, and then completely reverse on the situation.

I'll be the first to say that i'm not right all the time, and fact a majority of the time i'm only partially right. but there are certain aspects I am completely wrong on. Top was one of them. I've said it many times. In fact it was rockout who first mentioned top when I tested 4c to him, and he said it was literally amazing when I busted it out against him. Before that I hadn't even thought about it, but then I slowly came into faith.

Now obviously 3 top seems absurd for any control deck to be playing thats not hinting towards counterbalance or something evil in the side. If you disagree with me, then yes I would label you at this point as a jackass.

But over mutch testing and many debates I have found a way to not only make it work but to also learn to split it up.

the other thing you have to consider is that soo many of your tournament reports i've read wine about things like losing to damn red deck wins, or ichorid, or such and such preboard. The thing is, if your losing to a 50-50 matchup preboard 2 things could have happened.

1. you got landscrewed or you missed a fundamental remove spell/ counterspell/ bomb.

2. You got beat.

I'm willing to bet that more so #2 is applying to most of you based not only on play skill but decision making in the testing of slots in your deck. It is a fundamental flaw of mine to protect certain slots based on this can't go because its just good. This is COMPLETELY WRONG. This is where i'm growing as a person to not only stop defending my choices to the death, but to point out to everyone if you don't agree with me, test it and you'll see.

I wouldn't cheat someone out of information and waste my time on here to the point that its just b.s. comming out. Instead I test and present as others in this thread do to present the general consensus of opinions and then present valid points with valid opinions.


This is probably coming off as me being a dick, but I'd just like to see the quality of the posts in this thread lean more towards ideas and concepts for improving the deck, especially on a match-up by match-up basis.


It's impossible for wish_still to be compared to any other version of landstill because of the versatility wish offers. Even if I were to give you a matchup analysis now that I think about it, "and I have pleanty of number crunching." Wish Stills matchup analysis is actually much much different then that of its cousin vindicate still or wife/sister Countertop_Still.


This is one of the most active threads on The Source but so much of what has been posted in here is fodder, how much has this deck actually improved in the last 5 pages?

Well i've added 2 snare, 1 top, 1 jace, 1 fracturing gust, 1 cop: red since chicago; and I would say yes this was a great improvement on the other lists "which were also good, but not quite as consistent against the meta-game."


Ok, I'm done bitching. Not looking to offend, just looking to get more out of this thread. Peace.

I understand but don't come off sayin I changed 4-5 slots. I've never touched the 4th brainstorm slot, never played 4 snare before, never played 3 top in landstill, and definately never seen a landstill list with 16 1 drops. It's radical but consistent and effective.

[rockout]

That's right give me credit!

I can say that I talk to mossivo on an almost daily basis and we literally bitch back and forth about match ups, cards, "flex" slots, not playing counterspell, and everything to playing W thresh with Rhox War Monk (cuz he's sexy.) I obviously disagree with him on some points but when it comes down to it I respect his opinion and always question his choices and he usually has a solid response with testing to back it up.

[Misplayer]

Mossivo, solid post. Lots of good information in there and you shut me up pretty good. Again, sorry that my post was pretty harsh, but I guess it resulted in some good information, so thanks.

[mossivo1986]

Mossivo, solid post. Lots of good information in there and you shut me up pretty good. Again, sorry that my post was pretty harsh, but I guess it resulted in some good information, so thanks.

It's not even a big deal.

thanx for the props Micheal. As stated Mike crys like a baby because he can't stand the immense pressure it is to play Relic in the maindeck :), even though it literally crushes about half of the metagame in one way or another; or at worst kantrips. Other then that we debate back and fourth on card choices like winey children as stated. I have a feeling one day he and I will go to the same tournament and play the same deck; and on that day the world will explode.

I really feel like if you don't get defensive about your card choices in your deck, then you truly arn't comfortable with your deck. it is in this research and developement that I realized that you not only have to be defensive; but on the opposite end of the spectrum you need to be open minded and patient. Without this defensive-openminded- ness you are gaurenteed not to be able to find what you want as far as card selection.

One thing i'd really like to point out to all pilots on this thread is that if you are making points and getting nothing back; then your mind-set IS wrong. You need to be able to take what you dishout and I gaurentee you that theres atleast 5 of you in the last month who have made me think about certain aspects/ card choices i've made. As a player this is soo fucking difficult to let go that my deck isn't already amazing (which it is) but what could I do to possibly improve it ( I mean really, its amazing.)

I do need to test that delta 61 slot again with jace, because I do believe jace is the correct answer, but I didn't want to skew my testing results either by playing a card that not might be there, so I wanted to start without and work its way back in.

[Elf_Ascetic]

Hm, intresting discussion. Ok, since I'm playing Vindicatestill for a while now, and obviously have nothing to add to the wishstill discussion, can we take a look at how the different landstillaproaches perform in different metagames? What build is the right shot for what metagame? I think we can state there three UWx models:
Wishstill (see Mossivo's latest list),
Vindicatestill (Rockout I believe has posted some lists, as did I)
Lists that finds room for Counterbalance.

Different metagames:
Bluedominated ones (Threshold, Dreadstill, NLU, see chicago)
Aggroinfested (burn, goblins, elves, aggroloam)
Loamcontrolled (rock, survival, aggroloam)
Comboinfested (10-15% ANT/TES or Ichorid)

That's about what I can find within an hour or two of driving..

At the moment, I've two tourneys coming up:
10 May, Mol, Belgium: probably some Aggro/Loam infested metagame, maybe some blue since last tournament was getting owned by my team running ANT. I would love to play landstill, but I need a decent plan. Otherwise, I better be off with ANT.
17 May, Nijmegen, my own tournament. A lot of combo, some black stuff and most times there's some blue as well.

What builds would better suit those metagames?

[mossivo1986]

Different metagames:
Bluedominated ones (Threshold, Dreadstill, NLU, see chicago)
Aggroinfested (burn, goblins, elves, aggroloam)
Loamcontrolled (rock, survival, aggroloam)
Comboinfested (10-15% ANT/TES or Ichorid)

Your question is which landbase is better for what metagame. The answer lies is wether your prefer wasteland or dustbowl/toolbox. Obviously in control meta-games toolbox is going to prove to be more solid because opponents cannot counter dust-bowl, tolaria west, or academy ruins. They can stifle them, but its still stronger. I'n metagames where theres alot more combo or aggro wasteland is hypatheticly stronger because of its aggresive nature to color screw and randomly remove problems like mishra's factory.




That's about what I can find within an hour or two of driving..

At the moment, I've two tourneys coming up:
10 May, Mol, Belgium: probably some Aggro/Loam infested metagame, maybe some blue since last tournament was getting owned by my team running ANT. I would love to play landstill, but I need a decent plan. Otherwise, I better be off with ANT.
17 May, Nijmegen, my own tournament. A lot of combo, some black stuff and most times there's some blue as well.

What builds would better suit those metagames?

It comes down to what do you like playing. In the combo metagame sac my engineered plagues for meddling mages and your whole game should center around being very aggresive "3 mage, 2 vendillion, 3 mishra, 2 elspeth, 2 decree" which is excellent in the ant matchup, back that up with force of will/ cunning wish and relic and you should be about 65-45, closer against skilled combo pilots because of their elusiveness to choose a standard model.

[GGoober]

After some additional playtesting:

-1 Delta
-1 Brainstorm

+1 Jace
Back down to 60 cards.

// Lands
1 [B] Underground Sea
1 [B] Scrubland
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [B] Tundra
3 [GUR] Island
3 [GUR] Plains
3 [JGC] Mishra's Factory
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [MM] Dust Bowl

// Creatures
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 [LRW] Jace Beleren

// Spells
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
1 [TE] Humility
2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
3 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [OD] Standstill
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [B] Wrath of God

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [SHM] Fracturing Gust
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [TSP] Return to Dust
SB: 1 [IA] Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 1 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 1 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 1 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
SB: 3 [7E] Engineered Plague



Moss, our lists are quite similar, and mana-base wise, we're almost identical. I'm a huge fan of Intuition, and I've been testing 2 Intuition + 2 Wish for a long time. It's been good as a Wish/Tutor box.

Here's my list:

UWb Intuitive Wish-Still
Lands: 24
1 [B] Underground Sea
1 [B] Scrubland
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [B] Tundra
2 [GUR] Island
3 [GUR] Plains
4 [JGC] Mishra's Factory
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
2 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [MM] Dust Bowl

Win-Con: 3
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds

Draw/Tutor/Cantrip: 14
1 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
3 [FNM] Brainstorm
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [OD] Standstill
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
2 [TE] Intuition

Permission/Board Control: 20
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [B] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [TE] Humility
4 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [B] Wrath of God
1 [B] Nevinryal's Disk

// Sideboard
1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
1 [PLC] Extirpate
1 [TSP] Return to Dust
1 [INV] Fact or Fiction
3 [PS] Meddling Mage
3 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
2 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
2 [7E] Engineered Plague[/QUOTE]


My arguments for Intuition is simple. It is not a loss of card advantage, and it's a tutor for an answer, a setup card for a long-term engine, and like the singleton Enlightened tutor, it is a golden tutor to search out many silver bullets to answer a wide diversity of problems.

Landstill has a diversity of answers, and I'm a huge fan of Wish-still since you have answers for almost any type of meta, making it one of the more flexible decks in Legacy. Intuition provides an alternative source of answers, which are not limited to instants, but are the golden-targets in your deck.

I don't believe Intuition as a tutor for 3 cards with the same name. Many old-school players wish to believe that Intuition for 3 Accumulated Knowledge is the best play in Magic. I disagree, since that is in fact a card disadvantage in the long run. Firstly, there is redundancy in copies of cards that get wasted in the deck. What do the 2 copies of Accumulated Knowledge in the GY do? Nothing. In designing a deck to use Intuition, one wishes to get a long-term return, which is why Intuition for Crucible + Academy Ruins is a good choice since you get to recur any artifact resources for the long run. The only times where I Intuition for 3 copies of a spell is when I'm in a very tight corner.

The flexibility of Intuition is amazing. You play it EOT, and it's like a mini FoF, giving you an answer. It comes a turn earlier than FoF although providing less CA but it's a tutor, not a filter card. For creatures, Landstill's answer will provide with any combination of StP, Shackle + Wrath + Humility. For Enchantment/Artifacts, any combination of EE/Ruins/Crucible would leave your opponent with a headache. If your opponent chooses to give you the answer, then you solved your problem. If your opponent chooses to give you the recursion engine, you solve the problem in the next 2 turns, risking some losses, but if you ever stabilize, you're fine.

Running Intuition allows you to run singleton answers such as 1 Relic of Progenitus, which can be recurred through academy ruins etc. My list runs Disk as it can be tutored via Intuition and recurred via Ruins. Disk has some synergy with a late-game Elspeth, but mostly it's there to answer a board of artifacts/enchantments/creatures (my meta has Enchantress, which is a hard MU game 1 since 10 cards are dead in my deck).

The thing I dislike about my list is 2 Academy Ruins but there are arguements to this. Running 2 Ruins allow me to be able to have one consistently throughout the course of the game if one gets wastelanded. Not to mention drawing a Ruins early in the game allows you to Intuition for just about any artifact answers without the fear of losing any cards. Usually, when I have a Ruins in play, I'd Intuition for the best answer + 2 Artifacts. E.g. against creatures, I would EOT Intuition for Swords/Humility + EE/Disk. My opponent would usually hand me EE/Disk since it would involve me spending mana but this choice is precisely what I meant by building an engine for the mid game. StP is the best answer at that instant, but if you can afford a turn, setting up that engine for a turn would save you a lot more pain than trying to top deck another answer. Secondly, I run 2 Ruins + 1 Crucible so that in cases where I don't have to Intuition for anything, I can proceed to set up my engine. If either Crucible or Ruins is in play, you can Intuition for solutions without fear of losing any resources (as mentioned above).

The singleton Enlightened Tutor MD has been amazing. Against certain decks, I would proceed to tutor up Standstill and offset the 1card disadvantage. The argument that ETutor is card disadvantage is true, but it's not too justifiable in a deck that has access to so many card advantage. Landstill is all about card advantage and board advantage, and 1 ETutor serves as a tutor for silver bullets. It's almost as if I'm running 2 Disk, 3 Humilities, 4 Standstill, 4 Tops, 4EE, 2 Crucibles when I'm actually running 1 Disk, 2 Humilities, 3 Standstill, 3 Tops, 3 EE, 1 Crucible. ETutor provides that immediate answer that you need. Not to mention against fast combo, it ups your answers by 1.

So far, I've been satisfied with my list above. I do find Counterspell more and more annoying with the UU requirement. Spell Snare has always been a happier joy when I see it. What I like to think of this deck is a mono-white control with access to top-tier draw/tutors and permission. I feel that Counterspell is still necessary, but I've not been too happy with it. It almost always pitches to FOW. Landstill is about the mid-late game, and stabilizing in the early game is crucial. Counterspell has annoyed me sometimes since I can't cast it reliably, not to mention the risks of getting dazed. Currently, I have not dropped it at all since I feel uncomfortable with less than 8 hard counters and sometimes spell snare does not counter key spells. For the people with experience on Counterspell, let me know if it's worthwhile to cut it and run 4 Spell Snares. If so, I will run 4 Spell Snares and the last slot would go to Jace.

My sideboard is tuned mostly for my weak matchups, namely combo, Enchantress and burn. Goldmane has been good against sligh and burn, and Ethersworn Canonist is simply a house against ANT. It's perhaps the worst creature next to Teeg for ANT players. Canonist is a natural choice for me since I run Intuition + Recursion engine, so the ANT player almost gives up after wasting resources to kill it, and only to find me recurring them again. Intuition also helps grab the Canonist much faster than relying on drawing into them. Meddling Mage + Canonist also slow down Enchantress/ANT/TES by many turns. Landstill usually does not cast more than 2 spells a turn, since we play draw-go in the early game, and proceed to play bombs on Turns 4 and later. Canonist is a natural choice for me since it fits into that playstyle. I was testing Sculler earlier before Canonist, but I liked Canonist much better as an answer against TES/ANT/Enchantress especially when I'm playing Intuition + Recursion.

And lastly, I run 61 cards. My deck is a toolbox kit, both manabse and MD solutions. I found that 23 lands was optimal but I ran into problems hitting the 4th land about 15% of the time due to bad luck/opposing LD. I'm comfortable with 24, and 24 lands in 61 card is justifiable, especially when it's a toolbox manabase.

[mossivo1986]

So My predictions were right with this new model running jace has been a complete success up to this point. I actually beat fae stompy today 2-3 :). Sb Path to exiles really helped alot too :)

[gustha]

Doesn't jace+top feel like doing a brainstorm every turn ?:smile:
I still have som problems with the number of jaces. Atm I still run:
4 BS
2 top
3 Standstill
2 jace
(1 etutor)
Going down to 1 jace really makes me feel like I merely substitute fof for Jace, while Jace is a good (not amazing, but very good) card advantage generator. The problem is that it begins to work in mid-late game (before that it's merely a "1UU: cycle"), so going to 1 might be the right call. On the other hand, I'm trying to move towards a speedstill approach, with diabolic edict instead of wrath, so in midgame the horizon should be fairly clear to use jace as earlier as possible. So jace needs the board clear to work well, while the speedstill approach has fast means to keep the board clean. But a full working jace means plenty of removals, so it seems like the speedstill approach has a (virtuous?) circle that calls himself for 0 or 2 jace, withouth any compromise. A full working jace provides itself, by the means of drawing removal (board control element in general) the way to protect itself (and, insofar, to protect us) in a way not so much different from the way elspeth protects itself (and, at the sime time, us) by creating soldier tokens. I really feel strongly that the speedstill approach has deeply understood the real nature of jace (implying by "nature" it's philosophycal meaning), and has found a way to truly abuse of his power (from the weakest of the PW's to one of the strongest). This thoughts really fascinate me, it's like a charming spell I have to break. Any suggestion?

[Ectoplasm]

I kind of like the intuition approach but I was wondering, I saw ethersworn adjudicator pop up in this thread a while ago, but has any real testing been done with this guy?
He might fit in neatly along with intuition, being able to get him back with academy ruins and all that. I bet 9 out of 10 opponents would forget he's actually an artifact :)

[mossivo1986]

I kind of like the intuition approach but I was wondering, I saw ethersworn adjudicator pop up in this thread a while ago, but has any real testing been done with this guy?
He might fit in neatly along with intuition, being able to get him back with academy ruins and all that. I bet 9 out of 10 opponents would forget he's actually an artifact :)

Thats incredibly interesting and expensive. I'll test it in the sb. but I dont think its better then anything currently in the works.

[gustha]

I've tested it briefly in the slot of eternal dragon (as I was wondering to do with the artifact akroma). The main point against him is that he gets the first stp that comes in play, and ofc that has not shroud, though it's mortify ability is quite good. But maybe I missed something.

[Ectoplasm]

Thats incredibly interesting and expensive. I'll test it in the sb. but I dont think its better then anything currently in the works.

Well yeah, neither do I, since the man is 5 mana. Then again, I've hardcasted eternal dragon often enough for 7 and I'd say this guy is better when he's in play even though they both serve different purposes.
The main arguement against him would be the manacurve-issues, landstill plays enough 4-mana bombs to dominate the game, we're not going to need a 5-drop IMO.
But then again, he looks cool enough to try, he *does* fill a niche and the guy above actually made me 'remember' intuition which should at least make him more playable which is why I'm bringing this up. I have played around with him a bit, but perhaps some of the more experienced landstill pilots could give their opinion.
Edit: @Gustha: I've tried him too, not alot though and yes he's a big fat lightningrod, but if he survives a turn or 2 he's a house. It's a bit like a planeswalker that, if left unchecked, wins the game on its own.

[mossivo1986]

Well yeah, neither do I, since the man is 5 mana. Then again, I've hardcasted eternal dragon often enough for 7 and I'd say this guy is better when he's in play even though they both serve different purposes.
The main arguement against him would be the manacurve-issues, landstill plays enough 4-mana bombs to dominate the game, we're not going to need a 5-drop IMO.
But then again, he looks cool enough to try, he *does* fill a niche and the guy above actually made me 'remember' intuition which should at least make him more playable which is why I'm bringing this up. I have played around with him a bit, but perhaps some of the more experienced landstill pilots could give their opinion.
Edit: @Gustha: I've tried him too, not alot though and yes he's a big fat lightningrod, but if he survives a turn or 2 he's a house. It's a bit like a planeswalker that, if left unchecked, wins the game on its own.

To make him work I think you would play something like this:

4 force
3 cs
3 spell snare

4 swords
3 ee
3 wrath

3 bs
3 top
3 standstill
1 jace

1 crucible
1 adjudicator
2 intuition

2 decree
1 elspeth
1 ajani

4 flooded
2 polluted
4 tundra
2 underground
1 scrubland
2 island
2 plains
3 mishra
1 academy ruins
2 wasteland

sb:
3 path
3 blast
3 plague
1 ajani
4 relic
1 shackles



This seems like a fairly balanced list.

[rockout]

I tested Ethersworn Adjudicator when he was first spoiled and I'll be honest, I got a little happy in the pants. Turns out, he is really clunky. Unfortunately he is a little over costed but can end the game fairly quickly. He recurs with academy ruins and kills everything in the format besides mongoose.

I was not a fan in the limited testing I did with him but I'm moving back to humility main deck so there is no more Ethersworn slot.

[GGoober]

In my meta, Canonist is important against ANT and Enchantress. Given that I run Intuition + Wish, Canonist as an artifact is a natural answer for me. I usually don't rely on Academy Ruins for Canonist since I run 3 Canonist + 4 Meddling MAge, all of which will slow ANT and Enchantress down when backed by Counterspell. Even then, ANT will sneak a win with Wipe away after tutoring. I know that Canonist makes it the hardest for ANT since they can only play 1 spell at a time, either to cantrip or tutor for answer, so by then, you know when and what he's tutoring up.

I've tested Adjudicator as an Intuition target but was not impressed. I would rather have Call the Skybreaker (MUC approach). Landstill takes the late game, so that would be a better win-con. I'm glad people like the Intuition list. I'm a huge fan of it since it provides with 4 Wishable/Tutorable solutions, and one of the Wraths can be replaced by Disk which fits the 4cc slot well, and with the additional benefit that it's recurrable and tutorable, and in the lategame with Elspeth, is win-more-win-more :P

Disk is preferred as a one-slot for me due to my meta of Enchantress, Countertop, Vials, equipments etc. Wrath alone does not solve the problem but disk does, albeit you risk a turn that it gets destroyed. Some might prefer Oblivion Stone. I'm a fan of Stone with the exception that it's within range of Counterbalance. I want my deck to be as immune to CB as possible, and our answers to CB are mostly immune (EE we can set at 3-4 even if we sunburst for 2, Wish + Return to Dust + Wrath + Humility + Elspeth are all out of CB range).

[mossivo1986]

So i've been doing alot of testing against anti blue; blue aggro decks. The recent success i've had is due to replacing engineered plague with additional removal aka path to exile. Here is the current configuration:


// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [SHM] Fracturing Gust
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [TSP] Return to Dust
SB: 1 [IA] Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 4 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 1 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 1 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane

The extra paths have proven themselves and i'm really greatful to geoff for bringing this to my attention.

[konsultant]

The extra paths have proven themselves and i'm really greatful to geoff for bringing this to my attention.

No problem, If your opponent is beating you with creatures you need to change your deck or your strategy against them.

[Ectoplasm]

Exactly how good is ethersworn canonist in stopping tes/ant? I reckon them still being able to drop all their leds/petals/chrome moxen will make it a kind of inferior card?
Canonist or tidehollow sculler as anticombo tech?

Of course in tandem with a playset of meddling mages and a couple of runed haloes.

[klaus]

Exactly how good is ethersworn canonist in stopping tes/ant? I reckon them still being able to drop all their leds/petals/chrome moxen will make it a kind of inferior card?
Canonist or tidehollow sculler as anticombo tech?
Of course in tandem with a playset of meddling mages and a couple of runed haloes.

In my testing and tourney experience Tidehollow Sculler (THS) has proven to be as effficient at hosing combo.dec as Meddling Mage (MM).
Dropping MM against ANT, naming Ad.N. can be the winning move, slowing them down and granting us enough time to establish CA, CQ and thus control.
More often than not however the combo player will be able to opt for plan "B" (Iggy, Grape Shot...) making MM almost worthless. "Belcher" may go for ETW, Ichorid just goes plain beatdown (without Dread Return)...you get the picture.
-
THS always has an impact, unless your opponent has run out of cards which pretty much spells gg anyways. First of all we get to see their hand, which is golden - allowing us to tap out for stuff if we see them having no tutor and no Duress/Chant effect, while holding FOW for instance.
He's very versatile always grabbing what's most dangerous - mana accels in the earlygame, tutors/chants... in the mid/late game.
What sets THS over the top is his superiority regarding control mirrors. Control mirrors are won via CA/CQ and he's really good at that - MM just doesn't do much against non-combo decks running BS and fetchlands, allowing them to simply shuffle away MM's target at some point.
-
THS's only real downside is that he doesn't pitch to FOW, which sucks in my current versions for my U count is rather low already. That's the reason why I still run the 3/2 THS/MM split. And I'm really happy with it.

[rockout]

So I top 2 split a tournament getting 2 tundras and 2 trops yesterday. I beat Aggrom loam twice, ITF, landstill, and MUC losing to hypergensis cascade.dec (I couldn't find my 2nd white source for the wrath in my hand and g2 he gripped my humility and forced my wrath) and drew against Rock Control. I split with merfolk.
I ran Jace for the first time in an actual tournament and I take every negative thing I've ever said about him back. In testing he was god awful, but in an actual tournament setting he was just amazing at keeping a constant stream of awesome flowing. I don't care to hear I told you so.

[Elf_Ascetic]

Nice. Congratz. The deck is putting up some serious results in the Lowlands here too, what is nice. How did you beat Loam? What was your boarding plan? What cards did shine in that matchup? Jace any good there?

[lilboggs675]

I am new to this forum, I have been playing landstill since 2005 legacy worlds (top 8) and 25th at GP: Chicago with landstill as well. Here is my current list.

2 counterbalance
3 counterspell
4 swords
2 crucible
2 elspeth
2 humility
4 standstill
4 brainstorm
3 spell snare
4 force of will
3 engineered explosives
3 senseis divining top
4 mishera's factory
4 tundra
1 hallowed fountain
2 volcanic island
4 polluted delta
4 flooded strand
1 island
4 wasteland

sideboard
3 pyroclasm
3 relic of progenetus
3 hydroblast
2 red elemental blast
1 counterbalance
1 threads of disloyalty
2 runed halo

I may want to try an enlightened tutor over a crucible. Meddling mage could be alright in the board too as combo hate for hypergenesis.

[mossivo1986]

I am new to this forum, I have been playing landstill since 2005 legacy worlds (top 8) and 25th at GP: Chicago with landstill as well. Here is my current list.

2 counterbalance
3 counterspell
4 swords
2 crucible
2 elspeth
2 humility
4 standstill
4 brainstorm
3 spell snare
4 force of will
3 engineered explosives
3 senseis divining top
4 mishera's factory
4 tundra
1 hallowed fountain
2 volcanic island
4 polluted delta
4 flooded strand
1 island
4 wasteland

sideboard
3 pyroclasm
3 relic of progenetus
3 hydroblast
2 red elemental blast
1 counterbalance
1 threads of disloyalty
2 runed halo

I may want to try an enlightened tutor over a crucible. Meddling mage could be alright in the board too as combo hate for hypergenesis.

E tutor is sexy over crucible.

Hypergenesis seems like a one trick pony. Yes while I agree that it can be devistatingly sweet to play one spell into big creature/ swing and win, I also understand that said spell still has to resolve and they still have to be able to get their force of will to knock your force of will. They also need to stop humility and to me that seems alot harder to do against your deck then it does against others from the position that you run counterbalance and it basicly reads counter anything with 3cc until you draw wrath. Outside of that yea I dont see them doing much with meddling mage on the table.


Now for my questions. Please do not take this as offensive; im simply asking because i'm trying to figure out your choices.

why r u running 9 2cc spells with maindeck counterbalance?

why is pyroclasm in your sideboard instead of the better answer for one more mana firespout.

Why do you run hallowed fountain; as opposed to more basic lands.

Why is this better then say any form of dreadstill which is far more aggressive? This question in particular because I ask anyone who runs counterbalance; and the other half of this is why not just go 4c and add goyf to help with your 2 drops and your aggresion.

As I said before, I'm not flaming you.

Love and Kisses
-Moss

[rockout]

@lilboggs675: I do not know how you survive running a single basic. Your list looks like you just scoop it up and go to g2 against a t1 moon effect.

I do like the 2 main deck humilities. Its one of those cards that get better as the format slows down and I talked to Mossivo last night and we both agreed the format seems to be slowing. I like the tops with extra fetches but you can easily support running -1 hallowed -2 fetches +3 plains (or 2/1 plains/island) and solidify your mana base to beat moon effects.

[mossivo1986]

@lilboggs675: I do not know how you survive running a single basic. Your list looks like you just scoop it up and go to g2 against a t1 moon effect.

I do like the 2 main deck humilities. Its one of those cards that get better as the format slows down and I talked to Mossivo last night and we both agreed the format seems to be slowing. I like the tops with extra fetches but you can easily support running -1 hallowed -2 fetches +3 plains (or 2/1 plains/island) and solidify your mana base to beat moon effects.

for a deck like his I don't see how you dont play the 3/3 split ATLEAST. Not to mention 8 colorless sources is just disgusting.

Try this:
4 flooded
2 polluted delta
4 tundra
1 volcanic island
1 r/w dual land? oh yeah Plateau.....
3 plains
3 island
3 mishra
3 wasteland

[Benie Bederios]

In my testing and tourney experience Tidehollow Sculler (THS) has proven to be as effficient at hosing combo.dec as Meddling Mage (MM).
Dropping MM against ANT, naming Ad.N. can be the winning move, slowing them down and granting us enough time to establish CA, CQ and thus control.
More often than not however the combo player will be able to opt for plan "B" (Iggy, Grape Shot...) making MM almost worthless. "Belcher" may go for ETW, Ichorid just goes plain beatdown (without Dread Return)...you get the picture.
-
THS always has an impact, unless your opponent has run out of cards which pretty much spells gg anyways. First of all we get to see their hand, which is golden - allowing us to tap out for stuff if we see them having no tutor and no Duress/Chant effect, while holding FOW for instance.
He's very versatile always grabbing what's most dangerous - mana accels in the earlygame, tutors/chants... in the mid/late game.
What sets THS over the top is his superiority regarding control mirrors. Control mirrors are won via CA/CQ and he's really good at that - MM just doesn't do much against non-combo decks running BS and fetchlands, allowing them to simply shuffle away MM's target at some point.
-
THS's only real downside is that he doesn't pitch to FOW, which sucks in my current versions for my U count is rather low already. That's the reason why I still run the 3/2 THS/MM split. And I'm really happy with it.

You kinda forgot to mention that Brainstorm in response to THS is pretty nasty.

BB

[rockout]

Nice. Congratz. The deck is putting up some serious results in the Lowlands here too, what is nice. How did you beat Loam? What was your boarding plan? What cards did shine in that matchup? Jace any good there?

Round 5: I forget his name but I know he's a regular at Hadley. GRb Aggro Loam 2-0 I forgot it was only 5 rounds so I didn't realize until I beat him that I was viaing for top 8.
G1: He goes diamond land chalice @1, I had snare and bs in hand with lands. This should get interesting. My turn 2 I ee his board away and I play the wrong land t3 so I can't vidnicate his colored source. He eventually plays crusher after I get in with mishra beats. He taps out to play seismic assault after I vindicate terravore and I left up snare mana. So at that point if he resolves loam I lose. I proceed to bs into my other 2 snares and go snare your loam, snare your loam, snare your loam, cs your loam while beating with Elspeth pumped tokens. After I cs the loam for the 4th time I draw the vindicate for his green source and I win shortly there after.
I board in relic x3, moat, blast x3. out wrath x2, cs x3, standstill, something else. Thats right no mage.
G2: I proceed to go broken with planeswalkers and a million answers. At one point I have relic, elspeth, jace, humility and like 10+ lands.

Top 8:
Matt LeBlanc Trialbyfire 2-0 Sorry Matt. GRb Aggro Loam Main deck Grip :-(
G1: Like an hour and a half match. He plays chalice @ 1 t1. He gets loam recursion but I proceed to draw like 5 land in a row to save my ass. I find my basics drop Elspeth and fend off terravore for 6 turns and eventually win through luck of vindicating stronghold, wasting stronghold and elspeth. I was able to mini timewalk him a few turns by just vindicating stronghold and spell snare on loam. At one point he was within lethal of a elspeth pumped token and I tap out to play humility on top of his vore with a single fetch land open. He EOT Grips Humility and I swords a 21/21 terravore. However, I begin swinging for 7 the next turn and cast e dragon and start swinging huge the next turn. I didn't take a single point of damage from one of his creatures. Jace drew me like 15 cards this game. The jace matt let me borrow :-(
G2: He goes t1 wish for loam. I mana ramp to Elspeth t4 with the option of Elspeth, Humility, Moat. His hand is double grip and he tsunami's me that following turn so I only have wasteland left. I rip factory like a champ and he literally dredges up 1 cycle land through 30 cards of his deck. 1 wasteland would have sealed the game. The last turn for him to kill me I have Elspeth, a 1/1 soldier, mishra and factory @ 19 life and he has a 9/9 vore. He cycles to find an answer and his only answer is wish for dd and swing at elspeth so I don't pump it and kill him since he was at 1. I show him the force after him mulling over his options for 5 minutes. Solid match and play from both I just got lucky.

I almost always board in Mage and Relic but now that I run BEB out of the board I would only really board in mage if I lost game 1 or game 2.

[rockout]

Excuse the double post, but I was wondering if anyone has done testing with Porphyry Nodes against Merfolk. It comes down before Plague and can insure that you can hit 4 mana and start dropping bombs. I can not find my original test notes with Node and would like some feedback from you guys.

[Citrus-God]

Excuse the double post, but I was wondering if anyone has done testing with Porphyry Nodes against Merfolk. It comes down before Plague and can insure that you can hit 4 mana and start dropping bombs. I can not find my original test notes with Node and would like some feedback from you guys.

I've tested Tsabo's Decree as a Wish target That was amazing. Granted, I also ran 6 Basic Lands in the maindeck. I've found that basic removal is enough to stall until you hit 6 mana.

[VonDoom]

Excuse the double post, but I was wondering if anyone has done testing with Porphyry Nodes against Merfolk. It comes down before Plague and can insure that you can hit 4 mana and start dropping bombs. I can not find my original test notes with Node and would like some feedback from you guys.

imho, it's too slow.
And we have no creature to sac every turn to maintain it, if we laid it at turn 1.
Because laying it at turn 3, could be too late....:cry:

[FredMaster]

I could see it as a great way to slow them down, after they dropped 1 or 2 creatures so that we have the possibility to create some CQ/CA and then drop or bombs more safely. I will definitely test in my sideboard because Merfolk is pretty much the last matchup i want to get.
Seriously...Merfolk players always seem to get either Landstill or Combo...

Btw how did you (Rockout) get the Merfolk player to split with you?

[Elf_Ascetic]

Maybe the Abyss can bring something for that matchup. You don't have to maintain it, you only need to make sure to counter/stp their first lord or something. The Abyss is a win against threshold (almost no mongeese here) and some random agro/agrocontrol.

[Skeggi]

The Abyss is a win against threshold (almost mongeese here).

At the beginning of each player's upkeep, destroy target nonartifact creature that player controls of his or her choice. It can't be regenerated.

[FredMaster]

Why would we want to play The Abyss if we could also just keep playing Humility?

[Elf_Ascetic]

Duh, I know the wording.

Almost no mongeese was what I should have typed.

[spiderfreak]

Why would we want to play The Abyss if we could also just keep playing Humility?

cuz the abyss kills a man a turn, humility just gives u an ass ton of 1/1s

[FredMaster]

cuz the abyss kills a man a turn, humility just gives u an ass ton of 1/1s
Wrong:
The Abyss kills a man on each opponent's turn. Therefore you can handle x+1 big creatures much easier with humility. Plus The Abyss doesn't handle shroud-creatures and artifact creatures.
Landstill is able to handle about any number of 1/1s if necessary, believe me.

[Shriekmaw]

The Abyss is way cooler since its more old school than Humility which is why it should be played. I can understand that humility is a better reset button, but doesn't landstill all ready have enough board wipers as it is?

Old School beats New School.

[Elf_Ascetic]

The abyss IS an actual removal spell, where humility is not. If your opponent has a krosan grip somewhere, the abyss did a better job then humility. Humilty + WoG is GG, but so is The Abyss + WoG. The Abyss + StP is much better then Humility + StP. Both cards steal the game for you, but The Abyss does something when anserwed, were Humilty does nothing.

[Ch@os]

The Abyss is way cooler since its more old school than Humility which is why it should be played. I can understand that humility is a better reset button, but doesn't landstill all ready have enough board wipers as it is?

Old School beats New School.

Wow, just Wow!

[rockout]

Btw how did you (Rockout) get the Merfolk player to split with you?

I showed him my huge balls...no, actually he offered the split while I was playing a 2 hr+ mirror match and I said hang on and after I lost game 1 to the folk player he offered the split again and I said screw it I want to go home.

If it was any other match up, I would not have split but folk is such a craptastic match up that I didn't even care to play it.


cuz the abyss kills a man a turn, humility just gives u an ass ton of 1/1s

Or, everyone chould just start running Moat again and have more insanely long landstill matches. ;-)

[Ectoplasm]

Merfolk isn't that bad of a matchup is it? If they don't go broken and flood you with men on turn 3/4 that is, which is something that can happen every now and then.

[spiderfreak]

Or, everyone chould just start running Moat again and have more insanely long landstill matches. ;-)

ha ha ha what, you don't like moat

[rockout]

ha ha ha what, you don't like moat

I honestly was not expecting you to keep moat in for game 2. I kept my moat in the board because I wanted to win through decree tokens/mishra but that didn't end up happening.

[Ch@os]

Or Moat and Humility so only a Faerie Conclave can get through it.

[spiderfreak]

I honestly was not expecting you to keep moat in for game 2. I kept my moat in the board because I wanted to win through decree tokens/mishra but that didn't end up happening.

you played more decrees then me so it was better for me

[rockout]

you played more decrees then me so it was better for me

Makes sense. You were running cheaper win conditions in the form of Bitterblossom and Hoofprints which I love those cards in landstill. I think I remember mentioning when I first picked up landstill my win conditions were those two sexy enchantments.

[spiderfreak]

Makes sense. You were running cheaper win conditions in the form of Bitterblossom and Hoofprints which I love those cards in landstill. I think I remember mentioning when I first picked up landstill my win conditions were those two sexy enchantments.

yeah. i liked the Hoofprints in it but not the Bitterblossom

[rockout]

I can see what you mean. In some of my matches the life loss from Bitterblossom was too much overcome. However, Ajani Goldmane + Bitterblossom seems pretty good.

[mossivo1986]

I can see what you mean. In some of my matches the life loss from Bitterblossom was too much overcome. However, Ajani Goldmane + Bitterblossom seems pretty good.

Don't even consider blossom. I did an ass ton of testing with blossom and in more then 1 ofs it was terrible. It really isnt what you want it to be in most matchups and loosing life to fetches plus blossom = extremely bad. Not at all what you want.

[rockout]

Don't even consider blossom. I did an ass ton of testing with blossom and in more then 1 ofs it was terrible. It really isnt what you want it to be in most matchups and loosing life to fetches plus blossom = extremely bad. Not at all what you want.

I know I not only played it in tournaments but tested it as well.

[Citrus-God]

Elspeth works with Moat...

[mossivo1986]

Elspeth works with Moat...

which is why he played it.....??

[Citrus-God]

which is why he played it.....??

Then why are we discussing inferior cards like Bitterblossom and Faerie Conclave?

[Elf_Ascetic]

What do you guys think:

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
2 Plains
2 Island
1 Swamp
2 Wasteland
1 Tolaria West
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Elspeth
1 Crucible
1 Eternal Dragon
4 Brainstrom
2 Top
4 Standstill
2 Fact of Fiction
1 The Abyss
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Wrath of God
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate
2 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

Sideboard:
4 Counterbalance
1 Top
3 Meddling Mage
2 Hydroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Ajani
3 Relic of Progenitus

I'm expecting a metagame with some Rock, Survival, different Loam builds, Goblins, Merfolk and some ANT.

[gustha]

What do you guys think:

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
2 Plains
2 Island
1 Swamp
2 Wasteland
1 Tolaria West
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Elspeth
1 Crucible
1 Eternal Dragon
4 Brainstrom
2 Top
4 Standstill
2 Fact of Fiction
1 The Abyss
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Wrath of God
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate
2 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

Sideboard:
4 Counterbalance
1 Top
3 Meddling Mage
2 Hydroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Ajani
3 Relic of Progenitus

I'm expecting a metagame with some Rock, Survival, different Loam builds, Goblins, Merfolk and some ANT.

Then why do you pack 3 counterspell and 2 spell snare? I see snare far better than CS in a meta like that you're expecting, and a full set of them (confi, DD, loam, survival, lord, cunterspell, tarmo, infernal tutor, piledriver, etc.; it also raises the blue count). I'd also suggest:
-1 tolaria west
+1 wasteland (with cruci and 3 vindicate, seems fair good)

-1 wrath
-1 the abyss
+2 relic MD (especially if you espect lots of survival/loam and rock always has tarmogoyf, at least)

-1 standstill
+1 disk/EE/elspeth/ajani

Eventually, -1 vindicate i guess it would be a right call, since with 4 snare it's a little slowr against those decks you're supposed to face. ANd mossivo may have good points to spend on vendilion clique as replacing you CS's.
If you put 4 snare MD (which already does counter the format), and MD relics (which are good if you expect those decks, I think) obviously some slots SB have to change. First of all the 3 bebs (snare counters DD anyway, against burn you have cb top and ajani...). And the 2 relics that has gone MD. Engineered Plague to improve merfolk MU? A singleton etutor to improve the chance to see your hate postSB?
Wish you good luck anyway! :wink:

[Citrus-God]

What do you guys think:

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
2 Plains
2 Island
1 Swamp
2 Wasteland
1 Tolaria West
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Elspeth
1 Crucible
1 Eternal Dragon
4 Brainstrom
2 Top
4 Standstill
2 Fact of Fiction
1 The Abyss
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Wrath of God
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate
2 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

Sideboard:
4 Counterbalance
1 Top
3 Meddling Mage
2 Hydroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Ajani
3 Relic of Progenitus

I'm expecting a metagame with some Rock, Survival, different Loam builds, Goblins, Merfolk and some ANT.

Needs at least 2 Decree of Justice and another EE.

[mossivo1986]

Don't try to get fancy with your manabase. Just run something like konsultants if you run wasteland. It's proven that its stable.

Current mana base:23


3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
2 Plains
2 Island
1 Swamp
2 Wasteland
1 Tolaria West
4 Mishra's Factory

Revised List:23

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
2 Plains
2 Island
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory



Current Permission suite:7


2 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

This simply will not due. Over months of testing I tried to run 4 force +2 snare and it was simply not consistent at all. Due to this I am telling you 10 is the correct number. When you split your numbers evenly you draw equal parts which is generally what you want from your different suits.

Revised Permission suit:10


4 Force
4 Snare
2 CS

Current Draw Suite:12


4 Brainstrom
2 Top
4 Standstill
2 Fact of Fiction

Your draw suit is good but your sort of missing 2 things here.

#1 Your draw suit is much higher then your permission suit. Almost double currently. I would recommend cleaning this up which will cut some fat from this area.

Revised Draw Suite10

4 brainstorm
4 standstill
2 fact or fiction

or:

3 brainstorm
3 top
3 standstill
1 jace/ fact or fiction


Current Removal suite: 9


1 The Abyss
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Wrath of God
4 Swords to Plowshares

Don't play cards just because they are more expensive then other options. The abyss is strictly worse then humility and moat. Even moat really is hard to say superior then just running multiple humilities. Lack of 3 EE is also terrible. Your never going to be happy with cuting on your removal suit.

Revised Removal Suit: 10
4 Stp
3 EE
3 wrath

The rest is up to you but this model has a long way before your truly going to be happy/safe in this format.

[Elf_Ascetic]

Thanks for the input.

@ Citrus: 2 Decree of Justice is not so good in that metagame I think. I've played a lot with a single decree, but I've cut him for The Abyss, since they both win the game, only in different scenario's. I'm not expecting much Standstills across the table, so I've given Decree the Axe.

@ Gustha: Cutting one standstill doesn't make sense in a metagame where standstill ALWAYS says Draw 3. Relic is intresting, but I'm not sure if I agree with the cards you take out.

@ Moss: I can't agree with 3 Factory. Believe me, I've tested it, but that card is so important, and it's very good in multiples. Blocking is good. Two Factories can stare a Goyf down all day long.

Tolaria West. Well, the card is a little bit stange, I know. A couple of teammates and myself were discussing the last land slot. In the end we concluded on TW because he was the consensus of our discussion: a colored source, a wasteland, and sometime an EE.

I would very much like more Decree, the 4th Snare and 2nd EE, but what to take out? What are the weakest cards in this deck?

[mossivo1986]

@ Citrus: 2 Decree of Justice is not so good in that metagame I think. I've played a lot with a single decree, but I've cut him for The Abyss, since they both win the game, only in different scenario's. I'm not expecting much Standstills across the table, so I've given Decree the Axe.

theres a reason decree is the best win condition ever printed. But go ahead and cut it.


@ Gustha: Cutting one standstill doesn't make sense in a metagame where standstill ALWAYS says Draw 3. Relic is intresting, but I'm not sure if I agree with the cards you take out.

standstill at 3 is safer then just the auto 4. Theres always situations where standstill reads 2 mana sit in hand unhappy because of said situation. Where as jace or additional top or fact or fiction replacing that 4th slot reduces that chance and ups the theory of +1+1+1+1= win.


@ Moss: I can't agree with 3 Factory. Believe me, I've tested it, but that card is so important, and it's very good in multiples. Blocking is good. Two Factories can stare a Goyf down all day long.

No ones telling you that you have to play 3. I'm just going to nicely point out that the best rated landstill player in the world plays 3, I play 3, Rockout I believe plays 3, Der Imagine played 3 when he piloted the deck. All of this leads me to strongly believe that yes 3 is the correct number. Especially when your combining it with wasteland. 3-3 split is actually quite perfect.

And no Goyf does not get eaten all day long by 2 Mishra. Goyf is happy to trade for manlands, but most of the time one removal spell before damage = you lose both of your manlands before I lose my goyf. So whos safer the one who risks a creature or the one who risks his 2 manlands. All i'm saying is prepare for a 1 sided psuedo armageddon if this is your logic.


Tolaria West. Well, the card is a little bit stange, I know. A couple of teammates and myself were discussing the last land slot. In the end we concluded on TW because he was the consensus of our discussion: a colored source, a wasteland, and sometime an EE.

Tolaria itself isn't strange, but packed with vindicate and wasteland it seems a bit excuse me retarded to slow your deck down like that. Your better of just cutting the slot and running more mana fixing.


I would very much like more Decree, the 4th Snare and 2nd EE, but what to take out? What are the weakest cards in this deck?

I just told you what your better options were. . . . .

[Misplayer]

How's a 3/3/4 Spell Snare/CS/FoW split sound? I've had many instances where I wished Spell Snare was a CS and vice versa. I see Spell Snare as being very metagame dependent. Any reasons why 3/3 is subpar?

On the 3 or 4 Factory discussion, I think Elf_A plays 4x Factory because he rocks 0 Decree. If he's seeing Gobs, this seems strong, and most of his metagame eats it to T2 Standstill, so I can see why he wants a playset there as well.

Other than that it seems like a lot of the card choices Mossivo listed are more and more being recognized as the standard for Landstill. Assuming 23 lands, that leaves 7 customizable slots for C Wish, Vindicate, Crucible, E Dragon, Elspeth, V Clique, Relic, Humility, E Tutor, PtE and other such cards. I would think 2 of those slots are auto-Elspeth in most lists by now. The rest is probably personal/metagame preference.

I like 2 Elspeth, 2/3 Vindicate, 1 Crucible, 1/2 Humility, 0/1 E Tutor, 0/1 Path to Exile, with possibly a Humility in 1 Wrath slot.

[gustha]

Actually, I cut a jace yesterday for the 3rd CS and got back to 60 cards, due to the fact no one here (i'm talking about nearly 50 people) seems to have 2 f****** diabolic edict for sunday. I went to a more "classic" conception, because of the fact my speedstill plans (2-3 vindi, 2 edict, 4 swords) are ruined by the missing edicts. Anyway, here's what I'm testing and plan to bring sunday (if I don't find 2 edicts, :laugh: ):

Manabase:
4 tundra
4 mishra's factory
1 academy ruins
1 wasteland
1 dust bowl
1 underground sea
1 scrubland
3 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
3 Island
2 plains

I cut the basic swamp just because I've got back to 2 vindicate, and SB hate which abuses of black is easily fetchable (even early, e.g. in the combo MU, where we don't absolutely care of LD). Eventually, the 4th tundra can be the 3rd plain, and the 1x waste another u.sea. Thoughts are welcome in this case. A 3rd black mana font, however, should be in. I also got back to the 4th mishra, because I got to cut some waste (3 waste with only 2 vindicate is no good...) and need to win under standstill wars. I'm not a fan of he 4th mishra or the 1/1 waste/bowl split. But 3 waste may reveal useless without vindicate to make them much more effective.
Let's go on.

Draw engine:
4 brainstorm
3 standstill
2 top
1 jace
1 enlightened tutor

Permission:
4 Force of will
4 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell

Removal:
2 vindicate
4 swords to plowshares
2 engineered explosives
1 nevinyrral's disk
1 wrath of god

walkers (jace already mentioned)
3 elspeth, knight-errant

stuff
1 crucible of worlds
1 humility

I must admit, the general concept of this list does not satisfy me. Except for being a bad period for me, with mulligans for 1- lands being the norm (23 lands in 60 cards, what the heck...). 3 CS is the more difficult choice, since i tend to fetch for basic early to stabilize earlier, and so UU is not a smart cost for me to pay. However, that slot was a jace, and I already pointed out that 2 jace is good imho only if packed with enough removal to keep the board clear. No edicts = less removal = more counters needed. Simple and clear. I'd surely prefer -1 CS +2 edict and my basic swamp back, as for my 61 card deck ^^ The removal suite is so shortened by 2 cards; vindicate got logically cut to 2: it covers the slot of the 3rd EE + 1 path to exile, and has the versatility they don't have. So less LD, with waste being diminished as well. And yeah, it's not an error: 3 elspeth. I got few chance to test her in such an important number, but sunday's tournament will leave feedbacks. Elspeth:
- do we want to see it in our opening hand? Cross. So no 4x.
- do we want to see her mid late game, as vindicate? Check. Considered 2x.
- do we want to see her a little earlier, by turn 4-5? Check. Then surely 3x.
- More impact vs aggro than the 2nd wrath, the 2nd humility? Check, ihmo. That's the reason why some LS don't play humility and wrath. Good point to desire a 3rd copy of it rather than a 2nd copy of something other.
- dead vs combo like wrath and humility? Cross. Strong point.

3 standstill: thanks mossivo for backing up the argument. Standstill is still our preferred, beloved, unspoilered ancestral recall. But t2 standstill is a foolish move if we don't have the mathematical certainty to win. Better use it when we have a solid position on the board.

I was forgetting the side:
3 Meddling Mage
3 Tidehollow Sculler
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Relic of Porgenitus
1 Planar Void
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Engineered Plague
2 Ajani Goldmange

With 1 sculler/canonist maybe out for cop:red

BTW, if I find 2 edicts, i'll play
3 mishra
3 waste
3 tundra
3 island
2 plains
1 swamo
1 usea
1 scrubland
1 ruins
3 flooded
2 polluted

4 fow
4 snare
2 cs
4 bs
2 top
3 standstill
1 etutor
2 jace
2 elspeth
2 EE
1 disk
3 vindicate
2 edict
1 humility
1 cruci
4 swords, back to 61 cards (and i'll try to stick a wrath somewhere, maybe...)

[rockout]

How's a 3/3/4 Spell Snare/CS/FoW split sound? I've had many instances where I wished Spell Snare was a CS and vice versa. I see Spell Snare as being very metagame dependent. Any reasons why 3/3 is subpar?

I love the 3/3/4 Snare CS FOW split and won't change it for any reason. It's good all the time. Que Joel chiming in about how much cs sucks.

[Citrus-God]

@ Citrus: 2 Decree of Justice is not so good in that metagame I think. I've played a lot with a single decree, but I've cut him for The Abyss, since they both win the game, only in different scenario's. I'm not expecting much Standstills across the table, so I've given Decree the Axe.

For the love of god, at least run them in the sideboard. Your games will end much more quickly if you board DoJs in. Decrees do much more than just cycle for soldier tokens. I've won games against decks like Merfolk, Aggro Loam and Survival just because I hardcasted a DoJ for 2 Angel tokens. Also, boarding in DoJs is a good plan considering you'll just end up taking Game 1 by having your opponent scoop to you anyway.

[Tinefol]

Decree is really good only in a very late game (at least 8 lands and above). Before that Elspeth is strictly better, and that's why people have been cutting Decree more and more. Decree has its shot in control metas, but legacy just isn't about control now. Most of the time, you would cycle the early Decree in your hand, because you can not afford a dead card sitting in your hand, and if you're, why run it at all?
Granted, if you cycle Decree for 5+ or hard cast it for 2, you probably win. But if you've dropped Elspeth like 4 turns earlier, you should've won already.

Now I'll rant a little about the land count. What's up with you people? You're running control deck with a bunch of heavy costed (4cc) permanents. How is 23lands enough for that?! Not only that but you also attempt to run wasteland along these 23lands? Having played Landstill for a while, anything less than 24 lands (and you count wasteland as 1/2 of a land at most), unless you run E.Dragon gives you mana screw from time to time. Drop additional wasteland or stifle from your opponent into assumption and you're never going to cast that Humility or Elspeth.
Another troublesome thing is that you're actually trying to run less colored mana sources than most of 4c builds do. And they had a hard time understanding how important a colored source is. Just look at the above list, considering it has 5 fetches, there are:
13 ways to access blue
12 ways to access white
6 ways to access black
7 colorless sources
10 non blue sources.
11 non white sources
LOL wut? Almost 43% of your mana base is non blue? And 48% is non white. How are you going to reliably get 2 blue or 2 white mana in a world of stifle and wasteland? And it really matters. Merfolk deck will punish you for your manabase. Goblins will punish you for your manabase. Not speaking of decks like Canadian Threshold and Team America. Now lets have a look at more or less standard 4c manabase:

4 [R] Tundra
4 [R] Underground Sea
3 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
2 [JU] Nantuko Monastery

18 ways to access blue
11 ways to access white and black
10 ways to access green
6 colorless lands

Only 22% of manabase is not blue. Somehow that looks a bit more stable to me, yet this is a 4c deck.

To sum it up, don't run less than 24 lands, unless you run E.Dragon, don't run more than 6 non colored sources unless you run more than 24 lands (only add wasteland if you have at least 23 lands), and have at least 6 fetchlands in the deck.

To make things more constructive, here's my approach to the deck:

// Lands (24)
4 [R] Tundra
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
2 [ALA] Island (1)
2 [RAV] Plains (4)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [U] Underground Sea
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [R] Scrubland
1 [MM] Dust Bowl

// Planeswalkers
1 [LRW] Jace Beleren
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [TE] Counterspell
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
1 [TE] Humility
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
2 [CNF] Path to Exile
2 [AP] Vindicate


A few words about Counterspell. The more permanent or sorcery speed you run, the less useful its early on. In almost all lists, 3 Counterspell is fine.

[eq.firemind]

What's up with you people? How is 23lands enough for that?!
+1. Agreed with Tinefol.

And as far as I know, Dragon Stompy wins the BoM3, so spend some time to reexamine your manabases.

[gustha]

As far as I can see, there is the general effort to run 5+ basics and less fetches: this could mean that stifle, waste, moon, b2b effects are less relevant at the "simple" cost of being a little more cautious when using the manabase. Also, top is a solid addiction that ihmo justifies the cut of the 24th land/dragon: in your list I see only 1 (what for? avoiding late game topdeck mode? cut that and jace and put 2 fof back ihmo, they serve better). Also, the general curve is not so high (no more decree e.g., wrath reduced or erased...), so especially in your approach 23 lands may seem enough (I cannot say the same of my list which atm has 3 else 1 disk, and not rarely I'd want the 24 land), or at least 24 but use the top slot for something more effective (like fof e.g.). Landeed landbase has more ways to access all the colors at the price of being exposed to all genres of LD and mana denial. 3cc landstill, from what i'm seeing in this thread, sacrifices a little fluency to strenghten the manabase. Ofc it may be improved a lot (i'm not satisfied with the one I have atm), but I can't remember the last time i lost to a resolved B2B or blood moon, tx to vindicate and 5+ basics, or had autoloss to wstax for not being able to put a damned basic into play after a resolved armageddon. It's crucial to have the right mana at the right time. It's also pretty good to see your opponent's nonbasic hate turning into dead cards just for the fact I run 2+ basics than I run a year ago.
Thus said, I run 23 lands and still screw and mull hard for not having 1/2 lands in my opening. But that's a personal problem, if I play high tide I usually draw 4-5 cards out of 7 :frown:

[rockout]

Dang, Citrus and Moss made so many good points their is nothing left for me to point out. I guess its story time: Decree cycles on turn 3 to find your fourth mana in a pickle, Decree says, "SURPRISE! I win," I've won games because I decreed for 1 under a standstill doing roughly 10-12 points of damage, also you do not have to worry about protecting your cycled decree as much as a manland or an elspeth. Like Joel said, cut it so that if I ever play a mirror against you I can drop standstill with very little worry.

Is 7 colorless sources really that much different percentage wise than running 6 colorless sources? I run 3 mishra's, 3 wasteland, and 1 academy ruins. I have not once said to myself where are my mishra's? I am not sure how many games I've tested in the last 7-8 months since I switched to 3 and there isn't a time where I just lost because I couldn't draw a mishra's. Joel pointing out that I ran 3 was like a wake up call. I forgot I ran 3 because I draw them so often they might as well be a 4-of.

[Benie Bederios]

...

Can you back that with statistics? In other words, what are the changes if you play a 23 mana base like this:

6 colourless sources
4 Tundra
2 Sea
1 Scrub
2/2/1 Basics
5 fetches

What is the change you can't Wrath turn 5 or counterspell turn 2? How much does that change with adding 1 fetchland? or adding a colourless source in a 23 or 24 manabase.

Comparing those things to other decks doesn't say to much, even if they are quite alike. 4-C Landstill is blue based with three small splashes. 3-colour is UW with a tiny splash for black. That is a huge difference. We can get Wrath of God mana of basics, 4-C Landstill needs 2 different duals and hope nothing is wasted before they can sweep the board next turn. This calls for a completely different manabase.

But I would like to see the statistics though :D. I'm not saying you're wrong, I was on the 24 land-count for a long time. But now I'm testing a 23 land version and I haven't been screwed yet. I only play 3 UU spells and 5 WW spells. The WW spells are at least 4 mana.

BB

[Citrus-God]

I played with 25 mana sources, including Dragon. I must say, Wastelands and Factories always color screw my opening hands. It's down to just 3 Factories, a Dust Bowl and an Academy Ruins now. Since I switched to those cards, I have been more comfortable playing Landstill through my swiss rounds. Running 6-7 colorless mana sources is equivalent to the 61st card argument.

I seldom get mana screwed, but I've been through color screw way too often.

Edit. I'm running 3 Factories because Elspeth is printed, which allows me to diversify my threat base anyway. Running 4 Factories would lead to my said color screw issue.

[mossivo1986]

Considering these changes for local play:

-2 Vendillion
-1 Spell snare

+2 Counterspell

Thoughts?

[mossivo1986]

Considering these changes for local play:

-2 Vendillion
-1 Spell snare

+2 Counterspell

Thoughts?

[Citrus-God]

Considering these changes for local play:

-2 Vendillion
-1 Spell snare

+2 Counterspell

Thoughts?

You only ever need to run Counterspell when you play FoFs and maybe a 3rd Wish. So if you're going to run those cards, then Counterspell is probably better than Clique. Knowing your build, Clique is a lot better than Counterspell. I think DIF would agree with this as well.

[mossivo1986]

You only ever need to run Counterspell when you play FoFs and maybe a 3rd Wish. So if you're going to run those cards, then Counterspell is probably better than Clique. Knowing your build, Clique is a lot better than Counterspell. I think DIF would agree with this as well.

Yeah I figured it would come down to someone playing the dif card on me. I was trying to achieve this without his knowlage shhhh... j/k

[mossivo1986]

I've been thinking alot lately about the different people who send me lists and ask questions ect.

Some Pointers for those of you who send these lists; before you send check read the following.

#1 I would not consider playing Landstill currently without equal or very close to equal numbers for your different suits (This applys to everything but utility and land suits obviously). The reasoning is obvious when pondered but honestly I can tell you the immense testing i've done as well as witnessed by successfull pilots more then proves these points.

#2 I cannot foresee running humility without wish in the same model. The logic that you randomly get humility to win you games doesn't work with my "always need to be able to tutor" personality. Where other pilots find redundancy in running multiple cards my playstyle is that to have a bunch of unique tutoring to enable multiple different angles or approaches to attack from.

#3 I always follow the rule: if you cant beat atleast two of the following in legacy: force/swords/combo (ant)/ or counterbalance.dec; then you probobly shouldn't be playing said build of anything. My personal build plays well against atleast 3 of the 4. This is not only because I play force and swords, but because of the utility that I run I am able to keep up with counterbalance. I do lack in the Ant department but it isn't difficult to just clog your sideboard up with Meddling mages and Ethersworn cannonists or even runed halos. Its up to you, though I prefer not to and thus lack a truly good matchup.

I hope this gives some of you a way into my thinking. I wanted this to be very clear as I am not able to speak with all of you obviously.

Love and Kisses :)
-Moss

[Mister Agent]

I have been testing the 3/3 spellsnare/counterspell configuration for awhile and I haven't really liked it all that much the last time I tested. Since then, I have switched back to just running 4 counterspells and I have been satisfied with the set.

Cunning wish has pretty much replaced spell snare for me because it's still a versatile card in this format and wish can win you games against countertop aggro-control while I can't really say the same about spell snare. Sure, spell snare is good at countering Tarmogoyf and Counterbalance but that isn't really an effective way to gain card advantage(it's 1 for 1). Especially since Landstill usually excels from card advantage and not 1 for 1 tradeoffs.

[Citrus-God]

#2 I cannot foresee running humility without wish in the same model. The logic that you randomly get humility to win you games doesn't work with my "always need to be able to tutor" personality. Where other pilots find redundancy in running multiple cards my playstyle is that to have a bunch of unique tutoring to enable multiple different angles or approaches to attack from.

I can imagine running Humility without Cunning Wish to tutor for it. It honestly works very well. Although, there's only one problem with a build not running Cunning Wish; the deck's needs fall apart. Landstill is a very good deck with very interesting needs as your board and game state develops over time. While playing builds without Cunning Wish, I realized that playing Landstill is a mix of playing against your opponent as well as taking care of your position. Cunning Wish is not only a way to attack your opponent from a different or unique angle and/or answer a threat, but it's a way to find cards to help take care of yourself. Different stages in the game demand different things. Sometimes you need answer a threat, sometimes you need to build card advantage. I believed so firmly that when tutoring for cards that help you get ahead of your opponent, I even tested Tithe as a wish target just so I can fix my mana base. Later, I ended up playing Sprouting Vines instead. I ended up running a maindeck CoW instead so I can tutor for it via Wish -> ETutor.


#3 I always follow the rule: if you cant beat atleast two of the following in legacy: force/swords/combo (ant)/ or counterbalance.dec; then you probobly shouldn't be playing said build of anything. My personal build plays well against atleast 3 of the 4. This is not only because I play force and swords, but because of the utility that I run I am able to keep up with counterbalance. I do lack in the Ant department but it isn't difficult to just clog your sideboard up with Meddling mages and Ethersworn cannonists or even runed halos. Its up to you, though I prefer not to and thus lack a truly good matchup.

Right now, my sideboard has 3 Spell Snares and 4 Meddling Mages. That seems to be able to handle itself very well against ANT and TES. Especially if you run 3 Wastelands maindeck.

[Spur Grappler]

I have been testing the 3/3 spellsnare/counterspell configuration for awhile and I haven't really liked it all that much the last time I tested. Since then, I have switched back to just running 4 counterspells and I have been satisfied with the set.

Cunning wish has pretty much replaced spell snare for me because it's still a versatile card in this format and wish can win you games against countertop aggro-control while I can't really say the same about spell snare. Sure, spell snare is good at countering Tarmogoyf and Counterbalance but that isn't really an effective way to gain card advantage(it's 1 for 1). Especially since Landstill usually excels from card advantage and not 1 for 1 tradeoffs.

I really don't get your point here. Spell Snare is just great against Thresh. It can counter Goyf and Balance as you said and these are the cards that are most dangerous for us. You don't need any more card advantage than your normal draw engine here. Thresh has NO card advantage at all.
Besides, Thresh is one of our best matchups even without Spell Snare, so why do you try to argument on the Spell Snare issue with this matchup?

There are so many decks Spell Snare is just unbelievable against: Goyf Sligh, Merfolk, every deck with CB, all the stuff that plays Hymn or Sinkhole. And it really can win games countering Goyfs or Price of Progress (decks with PoP are really dangerous without Snare). I don't think we have to go through all of Spell Snares advantages again.

Counterspell is just not that good in the early game and often in the mid neither. You just don't always have UU (especially not against decks like Merfolk or Pikula). If you play an expensive spell like Elspeth or Humility you often can't keep UU open for CS while needing your Tundras for WW. There is not always the Force as an answer for a threat then.
I think 3 is the correct number for it, because it is obviously a great card in Landstill, but you don't want to have it all the time like for example StPS.

Cunning Wish may be a good card in Landstill, but I think everyone should play AT LEAST 3 Spell Snare. If you want Cunning Wish then find room for it somewhere else. In the fast Legacy Meta nowadays Spell Snare is a must. I play 4 FoW, 4 Spell Snare, 3 CS and I think this is the best you can do. Landstill just needs a heavy permission suite.
Every time I think about going to 3 Snare to fit other great cards in the deck I just don't do it in the end. I'd rather go down to 2 CS. Spell Snare just rocks!

[Mister Agent]

I really don't get your point here. Spell Snare is just great against Thresh. It can counter Goyf and Balance as you said and these are the cards that are most dangerous for us. You don't need any more card advantage than your normal draw engine here. Thresh has NO card advantage at all.
Besides, Thresh is one of our best matchups even without Spell Snare, so why do you try to argument on the Spell Snare issue with this matchup?

There are so many decks Spell Snare is just unbelievable against: Goyf Sligh, Merfolk, every deck with CB, all the stuff that plays Hymn or Sinkhole. And it really can win games countering Goyfs or Price of Progress (decks with PoP are really dangerous without Snare). I don't think we have to go through all of Spell Snares advantages again.

Counterspell is just not that good in the early game and often in the mid neither. You just don't always have UU (especially not against decks like Merfolk or Pikula). If you play an expensive spell like Elspeth or Humility you often can't keep UU open for CS while needing your Tundras for WW. There is not always the Force as an answer for a threat then.
I think 3 is the correct number for it, because it is obviously a great card in Landstill, but you don't want to have it all the time like for example StPS.

Cunning Wish may be a good card in Landstill, but I think everyone should play AT LEAST 3 Spell Snare. If you want Cunning Wish then find room for it somewhere else. In the fast Legacy Meta nowadays Spell Snare is a must. I play 4 FoW, 4 Spell Snare, 3 CS and I think this is the best you can do. Landstill just needs a heavy permission suite.
Every time I think about going to 3 Snare to fit other great cards in the deck I just don't do it in the end. I'd rather go down to 2 CS. Spell Snare just rocks!

Well the point I am trying to make is, I think spell snare would be much better off in the sideboard instead. I just think it's too narrow of a card to be worth in the main.

As for the threshold matchup; Countertop threshold does have alot of stuff going for it and card advantage is definitely one of them. Countertop creates massive card advantage for them and I don't think it'll do any good to counter their counterbalance and goyf because they will find replacements soon enough with their cantrips. I also concern much more about sensei's divining top then counterbalance or goyf. It'll definitely be good to get a solid answer for top and spell snare isn't one of them.

As for Cunning Wish; it's still good in this format because it can steal you wins even against countertop aggro-control as I previously mentioned. Cunning wish gives you alot of flexibility and I think that outweighs it's speed efficiency by a large margin.

Also, spell snare isn't really all that great against goyf sligh thanks to vexing shusher. They can pretty much just hold back until they draw both PoP and shusher and just hit you for infinite anytime they want. So spell snare is bad there and if your metagame is full of goyf sligh either play a different deck or board in COP: Red.

[Ectoplasm]

Please explain how countertop creates cardadvantage, besides blindly feeding brainstorms/plows into their grinder. There's so many ways to prevent, get rid of or downright ignore the cb/top engine that I'm genuinely wondering how this is a means to create 'massive cardadvantage'.
Edit: By no means am I calling you a bad player or insinuating you're 'doing it wrong', I'm sincerely wondering about this.

[4eak]

@ Ectoplasm


Please explain how countertop creates cardadvantage, besides blindly feeding brainstorms/plows into their grinder. There's so many ways to prevent, get rid of or downright ignore the cb/top engine that I'm genuinely wondering how this is a means to create 'massive cardadvantage'.


The easiest way to think about Countertop card advantage is over the entirety of the game. Counterbalance countered how many spells for you? You paid 1-2 cards, and because of it, your opponent lost how many cards over the course of the game?

Countertop is card advantage if your opponent plays into it. It owns the 0-2cc curve, a substantial portion of most decks, and alongside additional permission to fill in gaps, outright invalidates most of your opponent's hand and subsequent topdecks.

Countertop is an asymmetrical (and more conditional) playset of Chalice of the Void@ 0-2 (and often 3). Chalice decks create card advantage by compressing their mana curves to avoid CotV@1-2, enabling their topdecks to retain value, while Countertop can do about the same thing at a price (not much of a price at all; usually it is a huge benefit) of keeping a similar mana curve to your opponent's (often low, efficient, and full of options for you). Countertop decks are Chalice decks with the awestriking consistency provided by cantrips, more effective mana curves (another point of consistency), and flexible dual-land mana bases.

Even if Countertop mostly eliminates small spells, it adds up. Even if decks have an answer to Countertop, they usually will have a hard time finding that answer while Countertop shuts down opposing card quality/advantage engines. Non-permission answers are very often subject to the CBTop engine, and when they aren't, they are often mana inefficient, poor in multiples, and unwieldy (EE, Vindicate, and Grip being the best/most versatile of the answers imho).

The only time Counterbalance doesn't create raw card advantage is when your opponent doesn't play directly into it, which is virtually card advantage anyways. Even if your opponent sandbags to unleash their hand in the future, only temporarily creating virtual card advantage, it is still creating tempo advantage as if your opponent's spells were countered for the duration of the sandbagging. That tempo is a window of opportunity whereby you can play spells and your opponent can't, allowing you to switch to the aggro role and push the pace before you opponent can draw into the necessary hand to answer you.

Decks that can almost completely avoid the Countertop curve (ironically, Chalice decks), win (or nearly win, a la breakthrough, etc.) before Counterbalance can be relevant (not easy to do), or cheat stuff into play via shusher/vial will actually make CB a source of card disadvantage for the Countertop player. Conditions to CBTop immunity or resistance are very hard to meet, and for most of the format, not possible.

Not only does CB-Top protect itself and produce massive card and tempo advantage, but because only the Countertop player knows his hand and top 3, he is the player with the information advantage. An active countertop allows you to leverage your information advantage, and it acts as a strong source of bluffing, often causing your opponent to play actually suboptimally (even if they made the correct choice given their knowledge). This information advantage is vital not only as an offensive permission engine, but it clearly defines for the Countertop player his own vectors of vulnerability which may be shrouded for an opponent who is both less aware of the current gamestate and less likely to see into the future gamestate as effectively as the Countertop player.





peace,
4eak

[NQN]

Yeah, you pretty much pointed out that CB is a good card. I second that.
But for the Spell Snare debate, I can not understand why we shouldn´t run the best counter in the format as a 4-of. It´s good against nearly every deck and hits the most dangerous spells from all of them. Snare is my MVP and I will always play four.

greetz,
NQN

[gustha]

Well the point I am trying to make is, I think spell snare would be much better off in the sideboard instead. I just think it's too narrow of a card to be worth in the main.

As for the threshold matchup; Countertop threshold does have alot of stuff going for it and card advantage is definitely one of them. Countertop creates massive card advantage for them and I don't think it'll do any good to counter their counterbalance and goyf because they will find replacements soon enough with their cantrips. I also concern much more about sensei's divining top then counterbalance or goyf. It'll definitely be good to get a solid answer for top and spell snare isn't one of them.

As for Cunning Wish; it's still good in this format because it can steal you wins even against countertop aggro-control as I previously mentioned. Cunning wish gives you alot of flexibility and I think that outweighs it's speed efficiency by a large margin.

Also, spell snare isn't really all that great against goyf sligh thanks to vexing shusher. They can pretty much just hold back until they draw both PoP and shusher and just hit you for infinite anytime they want. So spell snare is bad there and if your metagame is full of goyf sligh either play a different deck or board in COP: Red.

I don't remember who said (maybe moss) that people try to forget that a deck which doesn't resolve bob or cb on turn2 are less more powerful that one that does. Spell snare is that great just because it lets us re-gain the gap landstill has in the first 2 turns, slowing down the opponent to our pace. Also, snare is INSANE against threshold decks, since (as ectoplasm very well pointed out) the curve offers at least 10 targets for snare, all of which are threats for us. From the first counterd counterbalance on, the threshold MU is not a difficult one. Also, what counterbalance can get in that mu, EE's can. Concerned about top? Come on... Every cantrip except predict just make card quality, not quantity or advantage, top is the only way they have to generate CA, so it's the first thing to care about, and snare does. There's a reason why decks in legacy struggle to control the 0-2 curve, from chalice of the void to counterbalance and so on: just because it's the most populated. Combo and aggro decks want to win as fast as possible: so it's normal for them to have a sensibly low curve, since they want cheap spells to win fast. Aggrocontrol decks try to dominate the curve following the strategies ectoplasm pointed out; in the case of cb decks, filling the same curve. So snare is not a situational card, but it's the card that has better understood the format.ddd
That said, if your meta is 70% goyf sligh just play a cb deck and not landstill :tongue:

[Doks]

Hey everybody!

Just a little question about good old Wrath of God in Landstill (maybe even control in general?): Why are you all cutting it down to 1-2 or even dismiss it completely from your MB?

Yes, I know, i'ts CC 4 with double W, but in my experience his advantages outweigh this:

a) this is the card that prevents your opp from overextending

and

b) it gives you the steadiness against all those random fattie.decs and midrange decks (Zoo) in an unknown metagame.


Surprisingly g2g, I'll add something later.

[Mister Agent]

Well it's definitely possible to play landstill without spell snare you just have to mulligan better and play more tightly. Geoff Smelski didn't even run spell snare in one of his latest builds and he still beat Nassif's NLU and did well overall at that event. He only had one spell snare in the board but that made sense since he ran cunning wish. Overall, I just think running Cunning wish over spell snare is a step in the right direction in my opinion and it doesn't really hurt to bring them from the board if needed.

Not to mention, Bobs aren't really too much of a concern since you already run the best removal spell in legacy(swords to plowshares) and also engineered explosives.

[3duece]

In my opinion spell snare is one of the best blue cards in the format. It does so much for landstill and gives it so much breathing room in the early game. Getting to counter turn two bombs on the draw is amazing, I shouldn't have to compile a list of the enormous amount of overpowered 2cc cards in the format. It stomps two entire archetypes (survival and counterbalace/goyf) and I see absolutely no reason to run less than three (I play four).

On the wrath issue, I don't like it anymore because this is now an almost completely midrange format with very few decks running more than ten threats that wrath can touch. It is too often a 4cc 1 for 1, which is absolutely unacceptable. My current removal package is
4 swords
3 vindicate
3 ee
2 edict
And it's all I feel is needed currently. Cards like vindicate and ee are so important now because of their versatility and I don't see the room or the reason to include wrath in this strategy in the current overall metagame state.

[Ectoplasm]

Spellsnare also destroys the disruption Eva Green throws at you, Hymn to Tourach alone warrants running snares.
opponent: swamp
you: Tundra
opponent: swamp, hymn
you: *stares at the fow, brainstorm, plow, EE and lands in hand and sobs*

Countering hymns with fows just feels disgusting.

[mossivo1986]

Look this argument about spell snare is rediculous. Spell snare is obviously the second best counter in the format besides force of will, as its free and it counters everything.

Theres also infinate reasons to run spell snare, including that spell snare on bob is a better answer then having to swords a bob. Hymn of toroch - spell snare is huge tempo, and even if they hit you for a hymn the next turn or so its still better that you countered the first one rather than the second one.

I'm not going to argue spell snares stance any longer. If you are talking about the card and arn't testing it now, then you shouldn't be in the discussion. Today's metagame is where spell snare is rediculous, not yesterdays.

Mister Agent- Konsultant's list had an extremely high curve for general landstill I believe, and even his list wasn't exactly the way he wanted it. He also had alot of answers to counterbalance but didn't exactly need to get rid of it. Even Geoff's list ran spell snare and I believe counterspell in the sb, and while I do not agree with his logic; he never the less was successfull and I was glad to have talked with him about his list.

[Citrus-God]

Look this argument about spell snare is rediculous. Spell snare is obviously the second best counter in the format besides force of will, as its free and it counters everything.

No doubt it's amazing. I won't argue, because I know it's the best. However, I believe running less than three is stupid.



Theres also infinate reasons to run spell snare, including that spell snare on bob is a better answer then having to swords a bob. Hymn of toroch - spell snare is huge tempo, and even if they hit you for a hymn the next turn or so its still better that you countered the first one rather than the second one.

Yes, but it depends on what deck you're playing against. If you're playing against Thresh, you're better off casting your Swords to Plowshares on that Confidant rather than Spell Snare. At least by holding Spell Snare, you still have an out against Goyf or Counterbalance.

As for playing against Sui Black, yeah, Spell Snare is tres tempo. It's both tempo and card advantage if they cast a Hymn, Sinkhole, Shade or Confidant off that Dark Ritual. This card, on the play, destroys first turn Rituals. Even if they cast a Duress of that Dark Ritual, it shouldn't matter, because you've probably won more games off that Spell Snare against Sui Black compared to Sui Black winning games off Landstill from a Duress in that situation. Its an amazing trade off, because all decks have sick opening hands. Landstill, at least, can be consistent and good if played off a bad hand.


I'm not going to argue spell snares stance any longer. If you are talking about the card and arn't testing it now, then you shouldn't be in the discussion. Today's metagame is where spell snare is rediculous, not yesterdays.

Indeed.


Mister Agent- Konsultant's list had an extremely high curve for general landstill I believe, and even his list wasn't exactly the way he wanted it. He also had alot of answers to counterbalance but didn't exactly need to get rid of it. Even Geoff's list ran spell snare and I believe counterspell in the sb, and while I do not agree with his logic; he never the less was successfull and I was glad to have talked with him about his list.

Mister Agent played a lot with Spell Snare. I can't argue his points, mainly because my testing results are different, but you made it sound as if he hasn't played with Spell Snares before. That or I was misreading your tone, because it's 2 am right now.

Konsultant just plays Landstill differently compared to us. He plays the deck like Monowhite control that incorporates Blue control elements. I always see him running 3 DoJ and 3-4 WoGs. Always. I dont even see him cutting another copy of WoG or DoJ because of how he plays. But like you said, Landstill is totally a subjective deck that melds in with your play style. Maybe cards like Spell Snare, which you claim to be a necessity for Landstill, just doesnt float the boat for Konsultant and Mister Agent. Maybe that prefer late game control elements because they feel as if their early game is good enough to stall until it hits 6 land drops and start taking control of the game like an amazingly played King's Indian.
I agree that Spell Snare should be in the maindeck, but I'm doing that because I viewed the metagame objectively. I think cards like Spell Snare is great for these metagames that demand you to run Spell Snare and really should be a must, no question. I never see reasons to play a certain way with a deck just because "you like it." Like, I have fun with Landstill, which is why I built it, but I think you should always play the best build possible. I don't wanna do that crap where I play with cards I like; I'm playing to win. Yes, I play to have fun, but winning is fun. That, and the social aspect.
I'm saying, you should not run a certain build because it fits your "playstyle," but because it wins for you in testing and because they win for you tournaments. Although comfort as much to do with how you play certain cards, so you should be testing every possible option as well. If you're comfortable with playing in scenarios where you can use cards like Fact or Fiction, Cunning Wish, Vendellion Clique, Humility, Moat, Elspeth, Extirpate, Krosan Grip, Ponder, SDT, Ajani, etc... the list goes on. I'm saying, don't stick to that mentality where you play cards and decks a certain way because it's comfortable. It's lazy. Think objectively before you even apply that mentality into building Landstill. Try every possible thing you can get a hold of. I tested Clique because I was in disbelief that it's better than Counterspell. In my testing, it is. I dunno why I ranted.

Edit. I did amazing things with Clique during testing. I blocked Mongeese during blocker's step and stole a Goyf out of the opponent's hand because he refused to play cards before Main Phase 1, I cast Clique EOT then proceeded to drop a Moat next turn, and EOTed a Clique and stole a counter and then dropped an Elspeth on my turn which helped Clique swing for 6. That card just stole shit. It also gives me a reason to run Moat and mucho control elements.

[mossivo1986]

Edit. I did amazing things with Clique during testing. I blocked Mongeese during blocker's step and stole a Goyf out of the opponent's hand because he refused to play cards before Main Phase 1, I cast Clique EOT then proceeded to drop a Moat next turn, and EOTed a Clique and stole a counter and then dropped an Elspeth on my turn which helped Clique swing for 6. That card just stole shit. It also gives me a reason to run Moat and mucho control elements.

I agree. The worst position I have ever been with vendillion Clique:

#1 Can't cast it. (Still pitches to force)
#2 Cast it against a deck that has good spot ping removal (Fire/ice, goblin sharpshooter, ect.)
#3 forcing the daze out of my opponents eot step (Which in reality isn't all that bad.)

Out of these three scenarios only one of them is truly bad. The other half of it is when you do get to steal cards like a lone force in said opponents hand with no blue card or the bomb said opponent is holding. The best is when they wish for something and pass their turn without casting said non castable card. That shits just funny.

Clique offers alot of things, but it does substancially weaken your stax matchup because its a full round later then counterspell would be. It also doesn't handle trinispher or armageddon alot of times so it leaves you open to random butt secks.

Theres something to quote:

"Vendillion Clique is to Armageddon stax, as Trinisphere is to butt secks."

Have fun with that one, whoever.

Love and Kisses
-Moss

[rockout]

I think Clique is good against staxs because you can strip them of geddon, crucible, possibly exalted angel. Also, it costs 3 anyway so you don't have to pay extra to cast him. Still pitches to force. Still beats for 3. Still Evades. Still forces them to o-ring it, then you drop your real win conditions and ride them to victory.

[mossivo1986]

I think Clique is good against staxs because you can strip them of geddon, crucible, possibly exalted angel. Also, it costs 3 anyway so you don't have to pay extra to cast him. Still pitches to force. Still beats for 3. Still Evades. Still forces them to o-ring it, then you drop your real win conditions and ride them to victory.

Maybe I should clear this up. With my exceptionally love curve of 2.24 I seem to have a problem with trinisphere. With that said if I vendillion cliqued a geddon away and also had force for a geddon, then its quite plausible that matchup is winnable. But to me there are too many if's and lack of counterspell really does hinder that matchup.

[3duece]

So I decided to test cunning wish again. Maybe I'm a better player now or maybe I was just being retarded, but I like it alot (I came into a pair of dci foils so I had to try them). I know you guys are sick of lists, so here's another!

3 mishra's factory
3 wasteland
3 flooded strand
3 polluted delta
4 tundra
1 underground sea
1 scrubland
2 island
2 plains
1 swamp

4 brainstorm
3 standstill
2 cunning wish
2 sensei's top

2 counterspell
4 spell snare
4 force of will

4 swords to plowshares
3 vindicate
3 engineered explosives
2 diabolic edict (i love this card, I don't give a shit)
2 elspeth, knight errant
1 decree of justice
1 crucible of worlds

1 pulse of the fields
1 dismantling blow
1 path to exile
1 diabolic edict
1 blue elemental blast
1 hydroblast
3 tidehollow sculler
3 engineered plague
3 relic of projenitus

I'm thinking the wish board needs some work. Dismantling blow seems better than return to dust so I think I'm set on that and I don't think I need the full path to exile playset to win the merfolk match. Is there stuff other people are wishing for that's working well? Help a brother out.

[Spur Grappler]

Not to mention, Bobs aren't really too much of a concern since you already run the best removal spell in legacy(swords to plowshares) and also engineered explosives.

Now you are getting ridiculus. So no creature without shroud is a concern for us since we run removal for it? Yeah, we run 4 Swords and 2-3 EE and that means that Confidant is not good against us? What are you trying to say?

Confidant is REALLY good against us, because he creates a massive card advantage and the lifeloss is nearly irrelevant against Landstill as we either die or win with board control. Mostly, it doesn't matter if your opponent has 30 or 10 Life when you cycle a decree on an empty board. As a Landstill player you should know that.

But now to my question. It concerns Extirpate. I seem to be the only one who plays it nowadays. Thats my board (I play 2 Enlightened Tutor main):

4 Extirpate
4 Divert (testing in the moment, can just as well be Blasts)
2 Ajani Goldmane
1 Crypt
1 Engineered Plague
1 Counterbalance
1 Runed Halo
1 CoP: Red

Everybody runs 3-4 Relic where I run Extirpate. I really don't understand this, so maybe I don't see something important here. When I compare these two, Extirpate seems just better to me.

People keep saying that Relic is great against Goyf. I always shake my head while reading this. First, I want to know what cards you are boarding out for 4 Relic against a deck that plays Goyfs. When I look to my list I find not a single card that I would want to board out for Relic. And even if you get your Relic trough, the Goyf stays and it will be as big as before in 2-3 Turns. So I'd rather have a card like Wrath, Snare, Sword, EE that kills Goyf (or one that helps me to find those cards) than one that just weakens him or am I wrong?

I see that Extirpate does nothing against Terravore, but against Loam.dec I'd rather extirpate Life from the Loam than removing the grave and facing another Loam from his hand. But I admit that the Terravore issue may be a problem here as he can kill us alone in a few turns.

Against Ichorid, Extirpate seems good enough as you can remove the bridges and thats all you need I think.

Against other Combo like ANT it's pretty good I think. You can let him shuffle after a Mystical or extirpate other key cards. Relic does nothing here except preventing Iggy (oh yeah and the allmighty cantrip).

In the mirror Extirpate is just awesome. You can remove cards like FoW or Factory which will make the mirror favorable for you as the game will probaly take a while and he will miss those removed cards. And he can't counter it of course. Relic hits yourself here too (if you run Crucible) and would only be better as dead cards like Wrath because of the allmighty cantrip ability.

So I ask myself: Where are those matchups where Relic just rules? I recognise Loam and Survival (what nearly nobody plays in my meta) as two decks against which Relic is better than Extirpate, but overal I see Extiprate as more versatile and a lot more useful against many other decks. And I absoultely don't see a reason to play Relic even main! I mean, Landstill is a deck where even one-ofs are very important and so every single slot is VERY valuably. A Landstill build full of crappy cantrips like Ponder (in Landstill it IS crappy) and Relic is just not as good as one without. I hear people always saying: 'It's always AT LEAST a cantrip". But a cantrip is REALLY bad in a Landstill deck!

[3duece]

Who's only running ee and swords? Everyone is running some combination of wrath, vindicate or edict on top of that. Plus factories. If you're swinging with factory they're either blocking with bob or risking 3-5 damage a turn. They would be stupid not to block.

[Spur Grappler]

Who's only running ee and swords? Everyone is running some combination of wrath, vindicate or edict on top of that. Plus factories. If you're swinging with factory they're either blocking with bob or risking 3-5 damage a turn. They would be stupid not to block.

If they block, they will lose anyway, because of the bad matchup they have against us. They're only hope is to find a sword with counterbackup for the factroy in this szenario. Otherwise they will just lose to the cardadvantage Landstill has. And as I said before, they're life is pretty irrelavant against Landstill. They have to take the damage until they can't. What is the alternative? Just losing to the superior deck without at least trying to win in a lucky way?
But you ar missing the point. It was said that Confi is bad, because we have removal for it and that is just a bad argument.
Or do you want to say that all creatures are just bad against us, because we have ALWAYS removal for them? If so, we will only lose to Tendrills and Brainfreeze...
Of course, Landstill is the deck with the heaviest removal suite in Legacy, but nevertheless there are creatures that are more dangerous to us as others.

[3duece]

Well put, I agree. That being said, comment on my damn build.:smile:

[Spur Grappler]

Well put, I agree. That being said, comment on my damn build.:smile:

I don't like the Edicts. You have 4 Swords and 3 Vindicate as spot removal (and you can wish for more if necessary), I think Wrath, Humility or a 3. Wish would be better in this slot when facing swarm aggro.
the 3-3 Wasteland-Factory split is something I can't imagine being goog, but many people seem to like it here. Playing without Academy Ruins seems not that great to me. Recurring EE (and crucible or Top;)) is just so impressive. I would stay with the 4-1-1 Factory-Dustbowl-Ruins split (with extra Tolaria West)

I like the Dismanting Blow. I think it is better than Return to Dust, but Blow may be hit by CB too...

[Mister Agent]

Now you are getting ridiculus. So no creature without shroud is a concern for us since we run removal for it? Yeah, we run 4 Swords and 2-3 EE and that means that Confidant is not good against us? What are you trying to say?



I never said confident wasn't good against landstill. All I am saying is we run alot of answers already for cards such as confidant and tarmogoyf. Of course dark confidant, would be bad for us since it draws cards for aggro control players. But as long as we run plenty of answers for those threats; I never really seem the need to run spell snare maindeck based off of my testing and yes I have tested spell snare maindeck for awhile in landstill even before people started to discuss seriously about the card. I play landstill where I like to clear the board with wrath of god and then drop a standstill. Or utililize cunning wish to find virtually anything I want while grinding out games with counterspells and removal/defense enchantments(Moat and/or Humility). Then finish the match off with decree of justice either hardcasting or cycling it.

[rockout]

@3deuce: You don't run enough win conditions. 4 spell snare makes me want to bunch babies. Hey, that mana base looks familiar. You are right, we are sick of new lists. :cool: is that good enough?

[3duece]

Aw shucks, turns out you do give a fuck. Spell snare is amazing, we both know it, you just can't admit it to yourself.

[rockout]

Aw shucks, turns out you do give a fuck. Spell snare is amazing, we both know it, you just can't admit it to yourself.

I run 3 spell snare. I can admit it to myself because sometimes I wake up in a cold sweat and see a resolved survival in my nightmares and then I wake up holding a foil spell snare and then I say to myself, "Get that shit out my face ho!" Pointing snare at Survival.

[3duece]

See, that's the difference between you and me. I let the survival resolve. I'm all 'whatever bro, that shit hasn't been good since 2005.' I'm like spring break man, no class.

[Citrus-God]

See, that's the difference between you and me. I let the survival resolve. I'm all 'whatever bro, that shit hasn't been good since 2005.' I'm like spring break man, no class.

Tarmogoyf has been good since 2008. I'm like, shit, it's fall, school again!

[3duece]

Which is why I play four spell snare. I'm the goddamn professor.

[rockout]

See, that's the difference between you and me. I let the survival resolve. I'm all 'whatever bro, that shit hasn't been good since 2005.' I'm like spring break man, no class.

You let survival resolve? Man, that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

[Citrus-God]

Which is why I play four spell snare. I'm the goddamn professor.

The student questions in retaliation, "So in this case, countering Survival is the right play?"

[rockout]

Yawn, go back to posting the same deck list we've been talking about for the last 20 pages.

[3duece]

Um, yeah. You obviously counter survival. It's fucking survival. You guys are in a pleasant mood, no?

[rockout]

Sarcasm is lost on the intertron. True story. Deletion of our last few posts eminent.

[3duece]

This one time I didn't counter survival and lost a testicle.

[Elf_Ascetic]

Yesterday, I went 4-2 using the list posted a few pages before. The Abyss was amazing. I topdecked the singleton ridiculously often, and it won me the game almost always. (only those pesky hasty goblins came trough). I won against CB Thresh twice, won against Sui and against Weldersurvival, all 2-0. My two losses were against Goblins (Vial sucks, as do Ringleaders..) and Death and Taxes (Vial + Glowrider + Wasteland + Flickerwisp on my land was enough time to beat me. He topdecked a Cataclysm in G3..). I seriously suggest you take a look at the Abyss, and test him. I didn't choose to run it because it's expensive, oldschool, or whatever else was suggested a few pages before, but since it wins you the game immidiatly when you hit it.

Well, the tourney has given me some ideas about my list, but I have to tinker and test with those changes a little bit first before I'll say anything about them. In the mainwhile, have a good time while testing the abyss.

[klaus]

So I decided to test cunning wish again. Maybe I'm a better player now or maybe I was just being retarded, but I like it alot (I came into a pair of dci foils so I had to try them). I know you guys are sick of lists, so here's another!

3 mishra's factory
3 wasteland
3 flooded strand
3 polluted delta
4 tundra
1 underground sea
1 scrubland
2 island
2 plains
1 swamp

4 brainstorm
3 standstill
2 cunning wish
2 sensei's top

2 counterspell
4 spell snare
4 force of will

4 swords to plowshares
3 vindicate
3 engineered explosives
2 diabolic edict (i love this card, I don't give a shit)
2 elspeth, knight errant
1 decree of justice
1 crucible of worlds

1 pulse of the fields
1 dismantling blow
1 path to exile
1 diabolic edict
1 blue elemental blast
1 hydroblast
3 tidehollow sculler
3 engineered plague
3 relic of projenitus

I'm thinking the wish board needs some work. Dismantling blow seems better than return to dust so I think I'm set on that and I don't think I need the full path to exile playset to win the merfolk match. Is there stuff other people are wishing for that's working well? Help a brother out.

For me Vindicate reads: "Screw Wishable spot removal" - or, to be more specific: screw Wish altoghether.

The only relevant non spot removal spell that your wishboard grants you is POT Fields (Blast is only VERY occasionally good).
I'm 100% positive you'd be better off with -2 Wish, +1 Vindicate/Enlightened Tutor/Jace, +1PtE.

[mossivo1986]

If they block, they will lose anyway, because of the bad matchup they have against us. They're only hope is to find a sword with counterbackup for the factroy in this szenario. Otherwise they will just lose to the cardadvantage Landstill has. And as I said before, they're life is pretty irrelavant against Landstill. They have to take the damage until they can't. What is the alternative? Just losing to the superior deck without at least trying to win in a lucky way?
But you ar missing the point. It was said that Confi is bad, because we have removal for it and that is just a bad argument.
Or do you want to say that all creatures are just bad against us, because we have ALWAYS removal for them? If so, we will only lose to Tendrills and Brainfreeze...
Of course, Landstill is the deck with the heaviest removal suite in Legacy, but nevertheless there are creatures that are more dangerous to us as others.

There are certainly creatures that are more dangerous then others. Bob ; however is not among them. In consideration for this slot are

nimble mongoose
progenitus
troll ascetic

Thats just to name a few. Notice that they all are only solved by -a- wrath
-b- humility. or -c- cop:green :)

[Citrus-God]

For me Vindicate reads: "Screw Wishable spot removal" - or, to be more specific: screw Wish altoghether.

The only relevant non spot removal spell that your wishboard grants you is POT Fields (Blast is only VERY occasionally good).
I'm 100% positive you'd be better off with -2 Wish, +1 Vindicate/Enlightened Tutor/Jace, +1PtE.

I don't see Vindicate getting Tsabo's Decree, Fracturing Gust, Return to Dust, Fact or Fiction or even Extirpate for that matter.

[mossivo1986]

I don't see Vindicate getting Tsabo's Decree, Fracturing Gust, Return to Dust, Fact or Fiction or even Extirpate for that matter.

I don't get what your saying here.

*Klaus-
If you think that Pulse is the only logical wish target besides for the occasional blast, your a long ways from understanding the concept of the wish board.

*Rockout- 4 spell snare it sexy bitch. Second best counter in the format only behind FOW, get used to it. FYI: for decks that do not run vindicate- you have to run 4 spell snare for bob counterbalance and burning wish.

[Citrus-God]

I don't get what your saying here.

I play Cunning Wish differently from most people. I use Cunning Wish to advance my board state as well as a reactive card. Being able to Wish for FoF, ETutor -> Humility/CoW and Extirpate allows you slowly avalanche your opponent.

Klaus claims that Wish is only a good reactive and since it is reactive, you're better off running a more mana efficient reactive card like Vindicate.

[klaus]

*Klaus-
If you think that Pulse is the only logical wish target besides for the occasional blast, your a long ways from understanding the concept of the wish board.

I was referring to 3duece's Wish board in particular (s.a.).
Anyway, I've discarded the Wish thing quite a while ago and never looked back. I'm not saying cutting Wish is a universal necessity - for me the approach is just way too slow.

[mossivo1986]

I play Cunning Wish differently from most people. I use Cunning Wish to advance my board state as well as a reactive card. Being able to Wish for FoF, ETutor -> Humility/CoW and Extirpate allows you slowly avalanche your opponent.

Klaus claims that Wish is only a good reactive and since it is reactive, you're better off running a more mana efficient reactive card like Vindicate.

This is Exactly how Wish is supposed to be played.

[3duece]

So am I wrong for trying to make both work? I changed my board to this:
1 BEB
1 Hydroblast
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Dismantling Blow
1 Path to Exile
1 Extirpate
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Fact or Fiction
3 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Relic of Projentus

I know it's alot, but what should I cut considering I have 3 vindicate main? I also added 1 humility main.

[mossivo1986]

1 Dismantling Blow
- Make it R2D, Counterbalance decks are trying more and more to consistently hit the 3 drop slot with cb (The best versions) so r2d is what you want to go for. Yes I understand that wish costs three but you can play around it early and cast it later.

1 Path to Exile
- Trust me splitting this with BEB and HYDRO is something I have NEVER felt bad about. Even when I tried to cutt it back again I fealt awefull about doing so. And now that I am running more in the board its something im sure you will agree is worth every penny.

1 Diabolic Edict
- Bad, you already have your removal. If you want more run additional path's. They're easier to cast and they don't cost 2 "spell snare"


1 Fact or Fiction
- Tested it. it's not the best, you hardly ever cast it. Better off going with something thats going to autowin you a match, which fof doesn't.

3 Tidehollow Sculler
- Also tested this. Found over many games it wasn't what I wanted. I always wished it was Meddling Mage. MM is simply better when you know what your up against, and following up a game 1 makes MM soo much more usefull.

Personally my sb:


1 pulse
1 pate
1 tutor
1 r2d
4 path
1 beb
1 hydro
1 fracturing gust
1 relic
1 cop red
2 ajani

[Shawn]

Mossivo, why do you run Return to Dust and Fracturing Gust in the sideboard? It seems wasteful unless you plan on bringing one in, which is ok in the right meta. If you are planning on bringing in a Disenchant effect game two I would just play a Vindicate sideboard since rarely will you draw both Wishes and want to find Return to Dust both times. Also, Wish-Enlightened Tutor-Explosives is essentially Disenchant #2 out of the wishboard.

I had two Dismantling Blows in my board of Wishstill for the last Monsters Den tournament last summer, but the second one did nothing. Doesn't the Return to Dust do enough against stuff like affinity? (I still run a D Blow in my sideboard, and do fine against affinity, and no one plays that deck anyway)


1 Fact or Fiction
- Tested it. it's not the best, you hardly ever cast it. Better off going with something thats going to autowin you a match, which fof doesn't.

Agreed, I had a Fact in my wishboard a long time ago, but I never wished for it and had no problems cutting it. For reference, here's my wishboard:

1 Extirpate
1 Enlightened Tutor/Path to Exile (depends on what I'm expecting, if the meta is more aggressive I'll play Path, otherwise, Tutor)
1 Dismantling Blow
1 Pulse of the Fields
* I also have two Blue Blasts and one Hydroblast, but those are rarely wished for, and I bring all them in against red decks anyway.

[mossivo1986]

Mossivo, why do you run Return to Dust and Fracturing Gust in the sideboard? It seems wasteful unless you plan on bringing one in, which is ok in the right meta. If you are planning on bringing in a Disenchant effect game two I would just play a Vindicate sideboard since rarely will you draw both Wishes and want to find Return to Dust both times. Also, Wish-Enlightened Tutor-Explosives is essentially Disenchant #2 out of the wishboard.

1. Return To Dust:
Is essentially your alternate out to counterbalance. It offers a wide variety of other uses as well, but since you don't run vindicate you must run return in order to focus on removing the big things like counterbalance. It's cc is perfect as well.

2. Fracturing Gust:
Single handedly destroys: Affinity (Unfavorable matchup) Enchantress(Dependant on build) and 2 of the three Stax builds

Faerie Stompy:
This matchup is really mediocre, but with Fracturing gust it enables you to remove:

chrome mox, sigil, sols, sofi, 3sphere, challice, b2b "If they run it".

Arm Stax:
Extremely unfavorable for me
Removes:
Crucible, 3sphere, Challice, Mox diamond, ghostly prison, suppression field.

This allows me to focus ALL of my forces on their armageddon's.

Dragon Stompy:
Extremely Favorable.
I dont think ive EVER lost a game to dragon stompy with 3c wish still at this point.
Removes: Bloodmoon, challice, 3sphere, chrome mox, juggarnaut "if they run it"

*Plus:
Geoff told me to run gust. 1UP!

On top of all the reasons stated before it replaces the crucible/ runed halo slot which was good, but looking back when you remove a semi-usefull card for an auto-win card that raises your chances of winning a matchup 10 fold it becomes a sort of auto-include.

Hope that gives you enough reasoning.


(I still run a D Blow in my sideboard, and do fine against affinity, and no one plays that deck anyway)

Thats pretty strange because not only do I think Affinity is a bad matchup, but most of the people that play landstill with me pretty much unanimously agree that Affinity can and is a problem when you run into it at tournaments if you dont see mass removal plus wasteland if you run it. Affinity tends to sneak wins.



1 Enlightened Tutor/Path to Exile (depends on what I'm expecting, if the meta is more aggressive I'll play Path, otherwise, Tutor)
You should always play both. You can't predict what your going to play to that kind of a degree, plus path is never bad. As I stated before 1 hydro 1 beb 1 path was the evolved plan when path was released, and after EXTENSIVE testing I found that running multiple paths "Geoff again 2up!" I found that it was absolutely neccesary to beat such decks as merfolk and well pretty much anything tribal.

*Also fyi: I like colors

[rockout]

Careful Joel. You are getting to the point where you are telling people they should never run this or that.

[gamegeek2]

Your point on Stax is valid, but a 5 mana spell isn't the best way to fight Affinity. I would much rather have Enlightened Tutor for Energy Flux.

[Shawn]

Do stax, affinity and enchantress, faerie stompy see enough play in your area to warrant taking another sideboard space?

I've had great results against white stax in testing, (also 2-0'd it at the GP). since they lack any real card advantage, are draw dependant and the only cards you really care about are Smokestacks and 'Geddon, sometimes Crucible. Explosives at three is a complete blowout, and they essentially can't win through Ruins+Explosives, (at least game one) if you play it.

I've haven't played much against enchantress, (since no one plays that deck in Iowa/Minnesota) but I did 2-0 it at the GP. The deck seems to have difficulty doing much when you kill/counter its enchantress effects, which prevents it from going nuts and Replenishing all over your face.



You should always play both. You can't predict what your going to play to that kind of an extent plus path is never bad.

It's more or less the same meta every time I go to IA City or MN. Iowa City=aggro. Minneapolis=Blue aggro control/some landstill. Running one or the other is fine, Enlightened Tutor can act as removal by searching Explosives or Humility. Running both clogs up the sideboard to much; I need as many anti combo and graveyard hate cards in the sideboard as I can fit. With just pair of Halos and an Enlightened Tutor side I've been getting rolled by TES in testing. The post side games go like this: Halo (Tendrils), Chant (counter), Duress (steal my other counter), resolve Ad Nauseum, draw a million cards since Ajani+Decree+Factories aren't a clock, and Wish into Grapeshot.

[mossivo1986]

Your point on Stax is valid, but a 5 mana spell isn't the best way to fight Affinity.

Your right, a five mana spell isn't the best lone answer to anything, well other then maybe force. But the addition of gust allows you to control the games position alot easier. Test the model and you'll find that out.


I would much rather have Enlightened Tutor for Energy Flux.

I would much rather have pernicious deed, but we can't all get what we want as four color isn't nearly as viable as it once was. Energy flux is an absolute waste when you can play crucible or halo in the same slots. Gust is the only logical "instant win" replacement. If you don't agree I really don't care; because i'm right.

[Citrus-God]

Do stax, affinity and enchantress, faerie stompy see enough play in your area to warrant taking another sideboard space?

In MN, there's always at least 1-2 Stax decks running around.


I've had great results against white stax in testing, (also 2-0'd it at the GP). since they lack any real card advantage, are draw dependant and the only cards you really care about are Smokestacks and 'Geddon, sometimes Crucible. Explosives at three is a complete blowout, and they essentially can't win through Ruins+Explosives, (at least game one) if you play it.

Geddon Stax is easy if you run Meddling Mages in the Sideboard.


I've haven't played much against enchantress, (since no one plays that deck in Iowa/Minnesota) but I did 2-0 it at the GP. The deck seems to have difficulty doing much when you kill/counter its enchantress effects, which prevents it from going nuts and Replenishing all over your face.

Argothian Enchantresses can get Spell Snared, which is always helpful.




It's more or less the same meta every time I go to IA City or MN. Iowa City=aggro. Minneapolis=Blue aggro control/some landstill.

So in this case, you should always have Enlighten Tutor in the board. Path to Exile is just a target removal you have available to you for convenience. It's not at all a necessity, but Enlighten Tutor, I firmly believe is a necessity. Enlighten Tutor finds you Crucible of Worlds for the control mirror, EE post board so you can do that young Academy Ruins+EE lock and Humility to steal game 1s.

So in this case, you should have have Enlighten Tutor, and maybe Path to Exile if you want. As for the Minneapolis metagame, it's just a lot of Threshold and Merfolk. Landstill, not so much anymore due to the appearance of Merfolk. But Merfolk takes the place of Landstill, which gives you another reason to run Crucible of Worlds.


Running one or the other is fine, Enlightened Tutor can act as removal by searching Explosives or Humility. Running both clogs up the sideboard to much; I need as many anti combo and graveyard hate cards in the sideboard as I can fit. With just pair of Halos and an Enlightened Tutor side I've been getting rolled by TES in testing. The post side games go like this: Halo (Tendrils), Chant (counter), Duress (steal my other counter), resolve Ad Nauseum, draw a million cards since Ajani+Decree+Factories aren't a clock, and Wish into Grapeshot.

Why arent you running Meddling Mages in the board? I just board in 4 BEB and 4 Meddling Mages against TES, and it has been amazing so far. Meddling Mage is a clock, and is a damn fine one as well. BEBs also counter opposing REB so you can protect Mage, Burning Wish which keeps them off Cave-In/Clasm/Grapeshot and Vexing Shushers. It also counters Rite of Flames which is profit.

Meddling Mages against TES should be calling Ad Nauseam first, and the other copies are situation specific based on your hand.

As for the graveyard hate, I don't think you really need it. What are your bad match ups against graveyard decks? Nobody plays Ichorid anymore. Aggro Loam? It's still bad post-board. If you want to beat Aggro Loam, I say just drop DoJ for 2 Angel tokens or Ajani -> Avatar token. If you can protect those cards and stall until midgame, you should beat Aggro Loam.

[FredMaster]

As for the graveyard hate, I don't think you really need it. What are your bad match ups against graveyard decks? Nobody plays Ichorid anymore. Aggro Loam?
It's the Fear is very hard to keep up with, when you don't play any Graveyardhate. I also think that you have a pretty good chance to beat Loam postboard (provided you play Relic of course).

[Citrus-God]

Your right, a five mana spell isn't the best lone answer to anything, well other then maybe force. But the addition of gust allows you to control the games position alot easier. Test the model and you'll find that out.

Depends. I'm testing Gust right now, and I will admit, I like it. But there will be exceptions, like, I will cut it in my metagame because... it's sorta worthless.


I would much rather have pernicious deed, but we can't all get what we want as four color isn't nearly as viable as it once was. Energy flux is an absolute waste when you can play crucible or halo in the same slots. Gust is the only logical "instant win" replacement. If you don't agree I really don't care; because i'm right.

Understandable that Pernicious Deed is better, but you GIVE THEM ONE TURN! With that one turn, they can do so many nasty things to you. They can topdeck a Sharpnel Blast, Pithing Needle or even a Cranial Plating. Also, what about the Myr Enforcers and Frogmites on the board? What if he runs Darksteel Citadel?

I can see where he's getting at, he would much rather just run a singleton Energy Flux and tutor it up against Affinity or Stax. Gust is a reasonable replacement, but not logical. I don't see 8 mana being logical, just to win against decks that are rarely played. In fact, if you're boarding in Energy Flux to serve as a hoser against Affinity or Stax, it's better. He runs a singleton ETutor maindeck, he runs one in the board, and if he boards in the Energy Flux along with the ETutor, he has 3 outs to find it, and probably more since he runs Brainstorms and Standstills and maybe Tops as well. Energy Flux, in every way, is just better than just having a Fracturing Gust in the board. It's not like you're going to win Game 1 anyway.

@Fredmaster: You can totally beat ITF if you can outplay the ITF player. It's more of a match up of resource management rather than graveyard control. Besides, you can just run a singleton Extirpate and just Extirpate their Etched Oracle or something.

[mossivo1986]

Do stax, affinity and enchantress, faerie stompy see enough play in your area to warrant taking another sideboard space?

If you run into them playing my model, yes it's worth the answer.



I've had great results against white stax in testing, (also 2-0'd it at the GP).

your list probobly runs counterspell then, mine contains vendillion clique. This changes those matchups substancially.


since they lack any real card advantage, are draw dependant and the only cards you really care about are Smokestacks and 'Geddon, sometimes Crucible.

Correct, and I can't win when they resolve any of those threats early.


Explosives at three is a complete blowout, and they essentially can't win through Ruins+Explosives, (at least game one) if you play it.

Essentially they can still win, and its why I've not been happy with my testing. Lack of counterspell really shines in this matchup. It's not pretty. I also tend to find and play against the players who have the endless gas cycle "counter a geddon, they play another. Remove a crucible lock, they draw another crucible or 3 additional wastelands." It's terrible and its one of the only reasons I am truly determined to make that matchup atleast semi playable and winnable preboard and post.


I've haven't played much against enchantress, (since no one plays that deck in Iowa/Minnesota) but I did 2-0 it at the GP.

Congrats, enchantress can be very tough for 3c to play against. Gust makes it a blowout if you don't let them build their hand.


The deck seems to have difficulty doing much when you kill/counter its enchantress effects, which prevents it from going nuts and Replenishing all over your face.

Yes?


It's more or less the same meta every time I go to IA City or MN. Iowa City=aggro. Minneapolis=Blue aggro control/some landstill. Running one or the other is fine, Enlightened Tutor can act as removal by searching Explosives or Humility. Running both clogs up the sideboard to much;


If your running a wish board, nomatter how small it is you need to be running these cards:

1 pate
1 pulse
1 return to dust
1 tutor
1 path
1 hydro
1 beb
2 ajani
3 relic
3 MM

It makes no difference if you think you need an extra slot or not, but you do not remove path because it acts as beb #3, and realisticly it sideboard in on red matchups like that as well most of the time. Do not remove such a strong removal spell from you wish board. outside of that the rest of the sideboard is up to you. I deffinately suggest relic and ajani for obvious reasons.


I need as many anti combo and graveyard hate cards in the sideboard as I can fit. With just pair of Halos and an Enlightened Tutor side I've been getting rolled by TES in testing.

Unless you plan on playing against tes more then once in a tourney Id really rather sacrfice the matchup. Your unlikely to win even with sideboard cards because the matchup is soo dependant on if your opponent is playing the uwb uwbr or five color versions with mass fetches and a more goodstuff approach.

The post side games go like this: Halo (Tendrils), Chant (counter), Duress (steal my other counter), resolve Ad Nauseum, draw a million cards since Ajani+Decree+Factories aren't a clock, and Wish into Grapeshot.[/QUOTE]

[Ectoplasm]

You can totally beat ITF if you can outplay the ITF player. It's more of a match up of resource management rather than graveyard control. Besides, you can just run a singleton Extirpate and just Extirpate their Etched Oracle or something.

The best part about UWb landstill is the fact you can win nearly every matchup, granted you outplay your opponent, imo 3c landstill is the 'old reliable' deck that doesn't have any glaring holes, yet has no 'complete blowout' matchups either. That being said, I have to say that once the game reaches a stalemate the ITF player will most likely win since they have all kinds of inevitability over you, which will eventually put you in the position where you run out of answers before you can win.

Luckily, hardly anyone plays ITF around here, probably because of the thousands of actions you have to perform each turn, 20 turns in a row, which makes it tedious.

[mossivo1986]

The best part about UWb landstill is the fact you can win nearly every matchup, granted you outplay your opponent, imo 3c landstill is the 'old reliable' deck that doesn't have any glaring holes, yet has no 'complete blowout' matchups either. That being said, I have to say that once the game reaches a stalemate the ITF player will most likely win since they have all kinds of inevitability over you, which will eventually put you in the position where you run out of answers before you can win.

Luckily, hardly anyone plays ITF around here, probably because of the thousands of actions you have to perform each turn, 20 turns in a row, which makes it tedious.

In my experiance against itf personally the games I have one I eliminated 3 key cards for my opponent.

#1 Etched Oracle.
Obviously he's massive, he doesn't die and he gets returned by both ruins and volraths stronghold. He also draws an assload of cards.

#2 LFTL

Wastelock at the speed of an instant with Intuition this is pretty nasty when combined with the blue cycling land and wasteland combination

#3 Eternal Witness

If all else fails the last thing said opponent will try and do is lock you out with witness protection plan. This pretty easily stated and its not nice at all.

If you solve these answers or you catch them with their very frail mana base you can just stop them cold. You can easily win by stripping itf off their green sources, white, blue, black. In that exact order. Stopping counterbalance is also pretty important because their 3cc and 4cc slots are consistent and good against you.

[TheCramp]

So I may return to the world of tournament legacy later this month. Here is the list I am testing. It is not the list I want to run.

Land [24]:

1 Academy Ruins
1 Dust Bowl/Wasteland
3 Usine de Mishra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
3 Island
2 Plains
4 Poluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra

Blue [21]:

1 Jace Beleren
3 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
2 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill

non Blue [15]:

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Wrath of God
1 Humility
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Decree of Justice
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Crucible of Worlds

If anyone has any advice on a few points, I wouls love to hear it.

1) I think I need more removal, and have 3 vindicates in the mail. not sure where/want to cut. I also think Runed Halo is hot. I want one main I think.

2) I dislike the 2 tutors main. I have had a few games where I have drawn 2 early, and it sucks. I want to go 1 main 1 side.

3) can anyone talk me out of a 2 CS / 4 Spell Snare split. I don't know if its because I think its a good idea, or just because I only have 2 Korean CSs. (Seriously, it's confusing.) Also, what about Mana Leak? as you can see I'm leaning away from the colorless lands, and even then I run into situations where I can't counter on my 2nd/3rd turn. Is counterspell for the late game, snare for the early? I know it seems better to tap down 4 for Espeth with UU showing. I really like that signal, (and having my money where my mouth is...) but Mana Leak seems better turns 2-4. Also Basic Plains, Basic Island is on occasion the correct drops 1st and 2nd.

4) I don't care for ponder, and would take top over it were it not for FoW. Has anyone tried Disrupt or something that effects the opponent more instead? I fully suspect this is a wrenched idea, and that ponder is just the workhorse it needs to be.


Landstill was what brought me into legacy years ago (I played Ur) and I have missed it. After wandering threw about 5 very different decks seriously, I understand it a great deal better. I look forward to joining the conversation.

[rockout]

You live in Hartford, CT, do you plan on going to The Grid later on this month? If so, message me, I will describe the meta to you.

[mossivo1986]

So I may return to the world of tournament legacy later this month. Here is the list I am testing. It is not the list I want to run.

Welcome back. I'm glad to see a former landstill player come into the light again :) Do you have M.W.S.? If so I can deffinately test with you against the meta and maybe we can do some mirror wars haha.

-As for your list there are some things I would recommend, but honestly it looks solid. From reading your post it looks like your questions you are leading yourself in the right direction, which is very difficult as it seems for other landstill pilots.


1 Academy Ruins
1 Dust Bowl/Wasteland
3 Usine de Mishra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
3 Island
2 Plains
4 Poluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra

This is solid, though I would cut down on your delta count. You don't want too many fetchlands as you want to be as resiliant to stifle as you possibly can be. This resiliancy also has to lead you equally away from wasteland too.

Basic>Fetch>Non-Basic>Legacy

That said your land count is about average, maybe 1 too many but thats all in personal preferance so I won't bother you too much with it. I would suggest:
-3 delta
+1 plains
+1 Tolaria West

This leaves you with 23 slots for lands which is perfectly fine, which means your currently +1 on slots.

For organizational purposes im going to break your model down to the different slots and i'll give you the numbers and options you have for an optimal list in my eyes.

Current Draw:11


2 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
1 Jace Beleren
4 Standstill


Originally I was an avid supporter of ponder in Landstill. I fealt like it gave you such a huge advantage in the mirror with the early game. While it does do what you want it do, too often it ends up being not enough. You want cards that when you cast them are going to make lasting impressions on not only your game plan but also be as much a must answer threat as you can possibly have. This lead me to run 1 top, then 2. Currently I run 3 top because of Ghusta; which in retrospect I would never go without. I was totally wrong about that.

Revised Draw:10


3 brainstorm
3 Top
3 standstill
1 jace

This is the drawing plan that i've been recommending to everyone who plays landstill for the most part. Not only is it consistent but it also gives you -a- a win condition and also doesn't screw you with multiple standstills in bad situations. No auto losses is the key with this draw set up. Also to note, with jace not only is multiple tops not a problem, but it also serves as getting you those precious fetches to shuffle them away! Also to note cutting one draw spell leaves you with 2 additional slots.

Current Permission: 10


3 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell

This setup is fine. Some people prefer running counterspell and the like. I personally like the idea of a 4-2 split with spell snare and vendillion clique instead for added win condition as well as control disruption and a pretty decent threat. Its all up to you though, but I would say thats about the standard list for pemission is what you currently have.

Current Removal:9


4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Wrath of God
1 Humility


Don't cut yourself short on removal. Re-add the Wrath and stick with that. It seems perfect to me. If your running into alot of merfolk maybe pack some additional path to exiles, but honestly this suit is really solid as well.

Win Cons:3


2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Decree of Justice


Once again don't cut yourself short, re-ad the decree of justice. Its the best win condition in the format if not the game. It simply wins games because of its inevitability. Its a standard. Geoff usually runs 3, but like you I favor the 2-2 split with Elspeth.

Utility:


1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Enlightened Tutor


For some reason my numbers arn't adding up. I think you should have 4 utility slots but I can't figure it out. What you have currently is fine, but for a more optimal approach try vindicate or wish. Both are the perspective standards and offer a wide variety of answers.



1) I think I need more removal, and have 3 vindicates in the mail. not sure where/want to cut. I also think Runed Halo is hot. I want one main I think.

3 vindicates is good if thats the approach you want your going to want to run more wastelands. I tested runed halo for a while with wish still and found it to be not neccesary. Just not what I wanted much like ponder.


2) I dislike the 2 tutors main. I have had a few games where I have drawn 2 early, and it sucks. I want to go 1 main 1 side.

cunning wish or vindicate is what I would suggest once again. If you run wish you have the bonus of still getting tutor.

As for the rest thats up to you. For my personal list see earlier in the thread, i'm sure its on here atleast half a dozen times with the most recent list obviously being close to the one I play. You can also chech clemslansing.com in the forums section and go to magic the gathering decklists and youll see my landstill journal where I go through my experiance with the deck and all the information I have collected ect. its a nice long read :) print it out and read it over the crapper. haha

anyways kudos.

-Moss

[Shawn]

In MN, there's always at least 1-2 Stax decks running around.

How many people show up for the $6 ones? I haven't been up recently due to school, but I most likely will this weekend when I visit my brother.


Why arent you running Meddling Mages in the board?

I would like to run Mage, but I'm running I use Halo due to lack of space since it can also be swapped for the clunky Wogs and Humility against decks like tempo thresh.



Unless you plan on playing against tes more then once in a tourney Id really rather sacrfice the matchup.

That's fair. I've been really liking Tops main and Counterbalance board, essentially Marius Hausmann's build, but with a 3rd Top, 4th Cbalance side and two more Decrees. Here's his list: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=326264&postcount=1212 Counterbalance is gold against the slightly difficult to very difficult matchups, like loam, and RG sligh. I'm confused as to what to sideboard in and out in some matchups, like aggro loam, where I can imagine wanting to bring in blasts, Counterbalance, Relic, and Ajani. If someone could help me out, that would be great.

[Citrus-God]

How many people show up for the $6 ones? I haven't been up recently due to school, but I most likely will this weekend when I visit my brother.

They're $7. Also, I do not attend those. I could go to a few and scout the attendances and such.




I would like to run Mage, but I'm running I use Halo due to lack of space since it can also be swapped for the clunky Wogs and Humility against decks like tempo thresh.

The more I play the deck, the more I appreciate Wrath of God. Humilities are always questionable for me while playing against decks that can just board enchantment hate against you.

Halo isn't very good against combo. You cast Halo on Tendrils, they cast Ad Nauseam. It just plain sucks playing against TES. If you want something versatile and is good against TES, I guess boarding in Counterbalances is a good plan. Just don't board Counterbalance against Thresh, and you should be set. Reason for this is that the edge you have over Thresh is that all the cards in your deck are redundant.


That's fair. I've been really liking Tops main and Counterbalance board, essentially Marius Hausmann's build, but with a 3rd Top, 4th Cbalance side and two more Decrees. Here's his list: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=326264&postcount=1212 Counterbalance is gold against the slightly difficult to very difficult matchups, like loam, and RG sligh. I'm confused as to what to sideboard in and out in some matchups, like aggro loam, where I can imagine wanting to bring in blasts, Counterbalance, Relic, and Ajani. If someone could help me out, that would be great.

Run the 3rd Top maindeck. Tops are good no matter what. But yeah, I agree with the 4th CB in the board. The sideboard should have Ajani just because CB/Top is insane. Elspeth is nutty here too.

[Shawn]

Running Mage over Halo is probably right, since the creature decks I'd be sided Halo in against have a low threat density, and my other removal is usually enough.


Run the 3rd Top maindeck. Tops are good no matter what. But yeah, I agree with the 4th CB in the board. The sideboard should have Ajani just because CB/Top is insane. Elspeth is nutty here too.

I do have the third top in the main, (of that list, not the wish version I'm running) sorry I wasn't clear about that. I would like to find a room for a fourth.

[Citrus-God]

I do have the third top in the main, (of that list, not the wish version I'm running) sorry I wasn't clear about that. I would like to find a room for a fourth.

With Standstills, 4 SDTs might be a stretch. However, you lack library manipulation to assemble Counterbalance + Top within a reasonable amount of time, so running 4 SDTs makes sense.

[TheCramp]

Welcome back...

Thanks. I am on a mac, and I'm unwilling to jump threw the hoops required to use MWS on it, only real cards in my testing. I took some of your advice, the list looks like this now:

Land [23]:

1 Academy Ruins
1 Dust Bowl/Wasteland
3 Usine de Mishra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
4 Island
2 Plains
2 Poluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra

Blue [19]:

1 Jace Beleren
3 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill

non Blue [18]:

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
1 Wrath of God
1 Humility
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Decree of Justice
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Sensei's Divining Top


These changes were made with a Agro meta in mind. (thanks Rockout.) I have 3 CB in the side, so I went for the 4/2 island/plains split.

Actually this is the side I have landed on for the side:

3 reb
3 counterbalance
3 Relic
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Engineered Plague
2 Ajani

I'm not sure about the tutors.

I did a bunch of testing against Naya Burn game one (alla GP chi town top 8) and am pretty happy with the list for that match up. I post my thoughts after testing the side board matches.

[Hitman82]

Is there a reason that Cunning Wish is played over Enlightened Tutor in the mainboard? Right now, I'm running one Enlightened Tutor with a Vedalken Shackles, Moat and Crucible. Is Cunning Wish usually run when you're not playing Counterspell? I'm getting into Legacy and like to play control archetypes. This deck seemed like a natural fit for me. Thanks for any insights.

[rockout]

Enlightened Tutor is card disadvantage in a deck that lives off card advantage. 1 main deck is alright or as a wish target but when you start running 2 to 4 you start hindering your draws.

I don't know why people don't run counterspell and cunning wish. I've seen lists with both and I can't see running landstill without at least 2 counterspells. Play style has a lot of do with the way you build your own build of landstill. Feel free to copy someones list but it's hard to say, without testing, that you want to run wish or not run wish or run vindicate and wish or whatever combination.

Side note: I know moss is going to comment saying you run clique over counterspell and I say that makes no sense.

[Citrus-God]

Enlightened Tutor is card disadvantage in a deck that lives off card advantage. 1 main deck is alright or as a wish target but when you start running 2 to 4 you start hindering your draws.

Card advantage doesnt matter if your board is superior compared to your opponents or it's a bad match-up. When casting ETuor for Humility/Moat to stop the assault, an EE or CB/Top component to lock the board up or Runed Halo/Counterbalance against Combo, you have the edge of casting for whatever you want.


I don't know why people don't run counterspell and cunning wish. I've seen lists with both and I can't see running landstill without at least 2 counterspells. Play style has a lot of do with the way you build your own build of landstill. Feel free to copy someones list but it's hard to say, without testing, that you want to run wish or not run wish or run vindicate and wish or whatever combination.

I switch between both. I'm currently playing CSpell because I get a tempo advantage compared to Clique,

[Hitman82]

Card advantage doesnt matter if your board is superior compared to your opponents or it's a bad match-up. When casting ETuor for Humility/Moat to stop the assault, an EE or CB/Top component to lock the board up or Runed Halo/Counterbalance against Combo, you have the edge of casting for whatever you want.

Citrus-God beat me to it. I don't care if my singleton Enlightened Tutor is card disadvantage because the cards I'm getting with it are so dominant to the board state that I'll be reaping insane virtual card advantage in no time.

My question is whether Cunning Wish's added versatility and pitchability are better than Enlightened Tutor's speed and efficiency. I can easily hold up Counterspell mana and cast Enlightened Tutor end of turn but if it's a tight game, my opponent may be bottlenecking my mana and Cunning Wish may be a dead card or at least forces me to tap out end of turn. I would hate to tap out in the mirror just to have something like Fact resolve in response.

I would have thought that Eternal Dragon would go hand in hand with Cunning Wish as it helps to develop your mana early so that you're better equipped to abuse the Wish in the mid-late game. I haven't seen any of these lists running Dragon and Wish together. Is there a reason for that?

Because my only experience in the format is testing mostly Threshold decks for months before the Grand Prix, I don't have the experience to know which is generally stronger. Legacy strikes me as a very tempo oriented format and Cunning Wish doesn't appear to fit well at first glance and that's why I ask. I haven't had much success with the card in the past.

As an aside, why are there no Wing Shards in the posted Wish boards?


I switch between both. I'm currently playing CSpell because I get a tempo advantage compared to Clique,

I would have thought the opposite. Counterspell means you did nothing on your mainphase but Vendilion Clique at end of your opponent's draw step means you just took the best card in their hand and you got a creature on board so that you didn't lose any tempo doing nothing on your own mainphase.

[Citrus-God]

I would have thought the opposite. Counterspell means you did nothing on your mainphase but Vendilion Clique at end of your opponent's draw step means you just took the best card in their hand and you got a creature on board so that you didn't lose any tempo doing nothing on your own mainphase.

It's like this, when you cast Clique, you don't always get rid of something good. And they still get to use mana on their own turn with the card they topdecked off Clique. With Counterspell, you counter what you want, at the expense of them tapping mana for it. And Counterspells steal a lot of turns that way.

Edit. I still play with Cunning Wish. I realize I lose most post board games, not because I dont have enough cards to board in for game 2s, but because my deck isn't consistent enough without Wish. But if I tamper with Enlighten Tutor more, I might end up playing that instead.

[gustha]

If I have to break a lance for enlightened tutor, let's not forget that he's not alone in the deck. It's obv a key card in early game in our opponent's eot. Thought, it's still a great card with a couple or land more on the table it's great even cast in our MP, since it has a great sinergy with jace beleren and sensei's divining top, which in some ways balance the card disadvantage created by tutor. (Yeah, top is great! If I didn't fear to lower my blue count to 18 I'd go again 3 bs 3 tops - i'm currently playing 4 bs 2 top, but I'd absolutely want the 3rd...I could add the 3rd one by going back to 61 cards, but that don't sounds so good to me...) Preboard etutor grants you access to most of your stuff, virtually doubling your tools: it's the main reason why I started to play without cwish (vindicate was far away from landstill player's minds at that time, god bless it!), and I haven't pulled out disk. A second copy SB and a properly built SB helps you to reach faster your answer postboard, whith wish doesn't (at least, not in my personal experience with wish).

[NQN]

Hi folks, there´s a tourney at sunday and I´ve been tooling around with a bunch of differente ls lists, but for know I want to try something like this:
// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
3 [UNH] Island
2 [A] Underground Sea
1 [U] Scrubland
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
4 [B] Tundra
2 [OD] Plains (3)
1 [6E] Swamp (1)

// Creatures
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
1 [LRW] Jace Beleren

// Spells
3 [OD] Standstill
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [AT] Swords to Plowshares
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 [CNF] Path to Exile
3 [AP] Vindicate
1 [ARE] Diabolic Edict
1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
1 [7E] Counterspell

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [OD] Ray of Distortion
SB: 2 [FNM] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
SB: 2 [6E] Perish
SB: 2 [U] Blue Elemental Blast


The 1-off CS is just for the blue count, otherwise it would be top. Actually I don´t really like tutor MD, but I need the sideboard space. I´m thinking about -1 Path +1 Vindicate, `cause otherwise chalice really hurts.
The meta I´m expecting is nearly no combo, little loam and a lot of Dreadnought/NQG/x and R/x Goyf-Beats. Any suggestions other than "Wish is better than vindicate" or smth. like that?

Looking forward to some good advice,
NQN

[klaus]

Hi folks, there´s a tourney at sunday and I´ve been tooling around with a bunch of differente ls lists, but for know I want to try something like this:
// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
3 [UNH] Island
2 [A] Underground Sea
1 [U] Scrubland
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
4 [B] Tundra
2 [OD] Plains (3)
1 [6E] Swamp (1)

// Creatures
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
1 [LRW] Jace Beleren

// Spells
3 [OD] Standstill
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [AT] Swords to Plowshares
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 [CNF] Path to Exile
3 [AP] Vindicate
1 [ARE] Diabolic Edict
1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
1 [7E] Counterspell

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [OD] Ray of Distortion
SB: 2 [FNM] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
SB: 2 [6E] Perish
SB: 2 [U] Blue Elemental Blast


The 1-off CS is just for the blue count, otherwise it would be top. Actually I don´t really like tutor MD, but I need the sideboard space. I´m thinking about -1 Path +1 Vindicate, `cause otherwise chalice really hurts.
The meta I´m expecting is nearly no combo, little loam and a lot of Dreadnought/NQG/x and R/x Goyf-Beats. Any suggestions other than "Wish is better than vindicate" or smth. like that?

Looking forward to some good advice,
NQN

Yo.
I agree with you on MD tutor being stupid in your build. You could easily move E.T. to the SB and go:
-1SB/+1MD: Ajani/Finks/Relic (with Relic being my #1 choice, due to Tarmos being well represented in your meta)

Alternatively, you could add the 4th Vindicate and cut those Ray of Distortions altogether (granting you 1 additional SB slot -> 3rd BEB? I don't like them as 2ofs). Ray of D. is simply too slow and costs too much for what it does.
I see that you want to beat CB reliably, but with 4 Vindicates, 3 EE and 4 Snares, you should be good.
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How did you like Clique in testing? I'm still very skeptical of the card: As a beater it just feels like win-more and as disruption it's really not superb. I haven't tested it much, I have to admit, but since it never really felt like it 2-for-1d consistently I just dropped it.
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Oh. Just saw your SB boasts 5 life gainers PLUS 2 BEBs. That really is overkill, no matter how you turn it. Even if your meta consisted of 30% aggro/burn decks, I would urge you to change that. You could probably add 2 COPs: Red (toolbox material) cutting the BEBs and 1 Fink 1 Ajani for that matter, granting you 2 additional slots.
If I were you, I'd probably go: -2 BEB, +1 Finks + 1 MD card so you can find room for the 4th Standstill (it's the best card in the deck afterall, especially so, since your meta does not seem Vial-infested!). If you're afraid of Standstill being a dead draw against all those Dreadstill kids, at least add a second Jace, or Fact or Fiction or whatever - Due to the lack of Wrath and Humlity Speedstill craves CA more than any other LS archetype, so it can maintain a positive threads/removal ratio until finding the next Standstill (which is also why I'd suggest keeping that 2nd PtE in).

[mossivo1986]

Even while testing the new model I am currently modifying with Rockout "go team awesome" I am still finding counterspell to be not what I want it to be. Oh well no biggy.