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3duece
05-15-2009, 06:08 PM
What do you want it to be? I want it to be awesome, and it is usually that. Is it the early double blue that's killing you? If it is, I completely understand, and I see why you play clique instead. I just don't feel comfortable cutting the hard counters so low, even with the semi-discard of clique. My problem with him is the same problem rock and eva have with discard, it doesn't stop good topdecks.

rockout
05-15-2009, 07:29 PM
That's why you run counterspell. F your top deck I still win.

ImaBorgerman
05-15-2009, 07:56 PM
hi Guys...
Seeing the number of answers to creatures in this deck, do you think Negate would actually be better than Counterspell here...?
As I realized it's kinda hard to hit double blue and uses Counterspells in the earlier turns...

rockout
05-15-2009, 07:57 PM
I'd advise searching the thread for the term, "negate." and read back about 30 pages.

Misplayer
05-15-2009, 09:49 PM
The biggest weakness I've experienced with Counterspell is that you get crushed by Spell Snare in counter battles.

Ectoplasm
05-16-2009, 06:31 AM
The biggest weakness I've experienced with Counterspell is that you get crushed by Spell Snare in counter battles.

The big upside, however, is that (unless you play against MUC) you're almost always going to be the guy running the most hard counters.

NQN
05-16-2009, 07:32 AM
Iīm not sure about Clique as well, but I like the picture ;) Itīs also good against Dreadstill and Loam I guess. But then again, it often is only "look at target players hand, gain 3 life". Ray is also nutz against Dreadstill and since the most balance-type decks are starting to add moar cc3 cards to their Maindecks, I thought that would solve the "problem" (one of the smaller ones for sure). If I cut Tutor and 2 CLiques I could add 1 Vindicate, 1 Standstill and maybe a second Counterspell?
About the Overkill SB thing: ALl the cards you mentioned will also be boarded against Loam and Ajani will go in against Control. So the cards are very versatile in my opinion. But I was never as doubtful about which list I should play then this time :S

Citrus-God
05-16-2009, 04:28 PM
The biggest weakness I've experienced with Counterspell is that you get crushed by Spell Snare in counter battles.

Only problem I have with Spell Snare is that they only aid you only when you initiate the threat.

3duece
05-16-2009, 11:03 PM
How do you mean? Maybe it's just the games I've played but sometimes I wish I could run spell snare 5 and 6.

gustha
05-17-2009, 05:40 AM
How do you mean? Maybe it's just the games I've played but sometimes I wish I could run spell snare 5 and 6.

I think citrus-god was talking about mirror matches, where Snare in counterwar is good only if we are the players who try to resolve a threat. I cast e.g. elspeth: then my opponet play CS, the me snare, than maybe him another CS, then snare and so on lasting with fows. If i start and snare is by my side, the only way my oppo can counter it is by fow. The same is true if it's the oppo who tries to resolve a threat, since it's snare's are better and cheaper than our CS: attaking fow+snare is a better position than defending Fow+CS, that's pretty clear. However, not so many archetypes packs counterspell, while many are beginning to run snare, which may cause some problem to us due to CS's cc2. (I can hear mossivo say "run clique"! :laugh: )

mossivo1986
05-17-2009, 09:49 AM
I totally disagree with the reactiveness factor. First of all lets figure out what model your refering to. As theres really 3 different models that play completely different games.

Counter-top still
wish still
Geof's Vindicate still

Spell snare against counter-top and vindicate-still is very strong

Counterbalance
Standstill
Counterspell
Meddling Mage

Not only does it win counterwars but it takes out your opponents Virtual CA.

gustha
05-17-2009, 11:09 AM
I totally disagree with the reactiveness factor. First of all lets figure out what model your refering to. As theres really 3 different models that play completely different games.

Counter-top still
wish still
Geof's Vindicate still

Spell snare against counter-top and vindicate-still is very strong

Counterbalance
Standstill
Counterspell
Meddling Mage

Not only does it win counterwars but it takes out your opponents Virtual CA.

Totally agreed... No one doubts of the power of spell snare, citrus point was only relative to counterwars; supposing that in mirror matches we have to face 3 form of counters (spell snare, fow, cs), and supposing me and my opponent have the same number of counters, spell snare is good for the player who starts the threat, not for the player who want to counter it. Whereas, having the same sit, clique tears away the counter backup of the opponent posing a threat. (The same is true, on the other hand, of CS being bad for the player who pose the threat and...well, also bad for the one who tries to counter ahahah!) In just this sit, clique offers far more advantages than the other 2 counters. In all the other cases... well... you pretty well summarized why spell snare is amazing! :laugh:

NQN
05-18-2009, 12:35 PM
I played at a 74 player tournament on sunday and failed horribly. Hereīs a short report.

Decklist:
// Lands
4 [B] Tundra
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
1 [A] Underground Sea
1 [U] Scrubland
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [6E] Island (3)
2 [OD] Plains (3)
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [FUT] Tolaria West

// Creatures
1 [LRW] Jace Beleren
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique

// Spells
3 [OD] Standstill
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [7E] Counterspell
4 [A] Swords to Plowshares
2 [TE] Humility
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [SC] Decree of Justice
2 [9E] Wrath of God
2 [JU] Cunning Wish

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
SB: 2 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
SB: 1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [FNM] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 3 [CNF] Path to Exile
SB: 1 [TSP] Return to Dust
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate

Btw, the first fail was to see some drunk jerk taking a shit at a house near to mine when I went outside to get some energy drink.

Round 1 Affinity
G1: He gets some pressure, I wrath. He follows with a 5/5 Master and a 5/5 Enforcer which I have to chumpblock to prevent to get into Blast range. After Return to Dust fucked both of his threats, Elspeth rides..no flyes for the victory.
+3 Path To Exile
-2 Vendilion Clique (Shouldīve kept one in instead of Decree as itīs Removal for thopter with Plating)
-1 Jace
G2: This one was easy. Path,Swords,Wrath,Elspeth,gg.
1-0 2-0

Round 2 Bgw Survival
G1: He leds with three thoughtseizes followed by Survival which I snare (I had top). He talks about how crappy it is that he canīt get rid of Elspeth with P.Deed, but tries it one turn later. He should definitely sleep more before the next tournament. After deed is gone, I can easily drop Humility and STandstill which I was holding for some time.
+2 Relic
+1 Crypt
-2 Wrath
-1 Vendilion
G2 is a copy of g2, with the only exception of Relic hitting Squee and Genesis making Survival useless.
2-0 4-0

Failing starts.

Round 3 R/g Goyfsligh
G1: After three Hellspark Elementals and some Mancer shocks Iīm able to stabilize with Wish->Pulse which he tries to prevent by manaburning himself. After some turns he realize he canīt keep this up and gives up.

So, This was the matchup I was expecting most combined with Counter/Top.
+3 Path +3 Kitchen Finks +2 Ajani
-2 Humility -2 Vendilion Clique -1 Jace -1 Decree -1 Wrath

G2: Well, I keep a good hand consisting of 3 lands, top, 2 snares and a Brainstorm. He leds with Shusher turn two and I fail at drawing a swords/Path/finks/wrath/ajani/wish and die some turns later.

G3: My opening hand is good again, and again I fail at getting any Sideboard cards. He red blasts a wish and after I got rid of the first shusher he just lays down a second one. I got toasted.
2-1 5-2

Round 4: Fred with Uwb Vindicate Still
G1: Long story short: He goes for Tolaria->Dust Bowl on turn 3 which I answer with an Elspeth and a topdecked Dust Bowl afterwards. I win :P
+2 Ajani +3 Finks
-2 Wrath -2 Humility -1 Sword
G2: I tend to play control mirrors very aggressively and therefor drop an Ajani on turn 4, building a 26/26 Token on turn 6 with the protection of Standstill and a Wish which could get a pitched FoW back with him at zero cards and a lonely Finks. THis time he fails at getting an answer and dies.
3-1 7-2

Round 5: Merrows without denial but with 7 manlands
G1: He leds with Mutavault->Relic, I go for TUndra->Top. Allthough he`s stuck on two Vaults for a couple of turns Iīm unable to apply ANY pressure and after he got an Island and a Rejeery he goes nutz.
Cursesratcher untapping Island, same again, two Adepts and aVial later itīs my turn. With a Clique I see two dazes and a Fow which I put back on the bottom. But since I didnīt got a sixth land I canīt go for wrath thorugh 2 daze and 2 Scratcher and receive a big punch in the face. I wished for a Tutor which searches a Humility now. Even after some shuffling I donīt find more lands and die shortly afterwards to his Mutavaults.
+3 Path +3 Finks +1 Tutor
-1 DoJ -1 Jace -2 Wish -3 STandstill

G2: His start isnīt impressive and with a wel timed swords my mishraīs can destroy his whole board. One Elspeth later itīs up to Game 3:
G3: I keep a one lander with 2 Explosives, Force+Pitch and a Top. He annuls my top which I attempt to Force, heīs got the daze. I get lucky and draw some lands, but he getīs his 1-off Needle of the top for my Explosives. With some Removals and his missing pressure I manage to donīt loose this one until time is up.
3-1-1 8-3-1

Fail. for not winning G1.

Round 6 Alex with MUC
G1: Iīd better keep quite about this since itīs just awkward. He mulls down to 4!, has to keep a zero land hand and still wins -.-. Iīm unable to deal him ANY point of damage until turn 1 billion where I cycle decree which he can easily handle with Shackles+Explosives. I canīt get rid of his last 2 or 3 lifepoints and loose to Oona :(
This game took so long that we only have about 10 minutes left.
+2 Ajani +3 Finks
-2 Humility -3 swords -1 Wrath
G2: Iīm screwed allthough I have top from turn one and he can easily keep me under check. I scoop to get some fresh air.
Never lost to a mulligan to 4 before :(
3-2-1 8-5-1

Round 7 totally nerved I have to play a mirror again with him playing two decrees and crucible.
G1: Most annoying game of the year. I receive some serious beatings from an early Elspeth and both of his decrees. Iīm able to get rid of it with my own Decree/Elspeth and a Mishra to block the last tokens. I get dust bowl and land a STandstill. I also have the advantage of Top all the time. From now on itīs draw discard for about 15 turns. We trade some spells/lands and Dust bowl keeps him under check. I finally draw my own Jace and start to deck him. I think I made some mistakes here because I was very tired but finally Iīm able to Extirpate his Explosives so he canīt keep is EE/Ruins Combo up. I was at 1 life with 5 cards left in my library. I definitely shouldīnt have discarded the third standstill there :S
Since there are only 8 minutes left my boarding was:
+2 Path +2 Ajani
-2 Humility -2 Wrath
G2: Iīm very confident to win this 1-0 but he gets the nutz draw with Island, Mishra->Standstill ->Dust Bowl->Mishra. I have to break it and Iīm rewarded with Elspeth on his side. My only chance is to draw a bunch of removal and Wish for Pulse. Pulse resolves some times since he had to use his forces to push Elspeth through. Thanks to Top I get 2 Paths and 2 Swords and therefor Iīm able to stay alive until timeīs over. phew.

Final result: 4-2-1 10-5-1

Props:
-The first two rounds
- nice opponents
- two bigmacs for the prize of one
- Tobias Dreger (got there with us) for going 7-0 with ITF Crushing DS and Loam
- my lilīsisters nintendo ds light+mario cart for

Slops:
-The other five rounds
- 3 Control matches
- not winning the matchup I spent 8 SB slots for shorten the trip


I need a new list, gogo mossivo :>

greetz,
NQN

mossivo1986
05-18-2009, 03:29 PM
I need a new list, gogo mossivo :>

Run my list, its better :) Just being honest.
-Love and Kisses
MoSs

p.s. congrats on the finish.

NQN
05-18-2009, 03:47 PM
sry

rockout
05-18-2009, 03:51 PM
That single counterspell looks lonely.

mossivo1986
05-18-2009, 04:09 PM
That single counterspell looks lonely.

Every time you cast counterspell in todays metagame, your 7th grade math teacher comes to haunt your bed.

On the real, 1 of humility and 1 of counterspell are far more insignificant than running straight out relic of progenitus in the preboard.

Out of your side the biggest misses I saw were fracturing gust, which wasn't a big deal; and also lack of fourth path "which concievably cost you a game" and lack of blast 2x which is more then likely what caused you another game, and addition of slow mass kitchen finks. Finks has no synergy with humility and isn't even as relivent as descendants of kamigawa are. You mine as well do what I do and replace your finks with 2 blasts and a cop red, it will better suit you in that matchup which you were meaning to make better as well as other matchups.

Overall you did fine as far as I can see, but you could really open up a couple more sideboard slots to really aid additional matchups as opposed to scrubbing on them with subpar answers.

rockout
05-18-2009, 04:12 PM
Every time you cast counterspell in todays metagame, your 7th grade math teacher comes to haunt your bed.

^ There's a reason I don't post in this thread anymore.

mossivo1986
05-18-2009, 04:45 PM
^ There's a reason I don't post in this thread anymore.

Yeah that wasn't the greatest one liner. I was at work, give me a break.

NQN
05-18-2009, 04:59 PM
sry again <.<

mossivo1986
05-18-2009, 05:37 PM
@ NQN:
// Lands
4 [B] Tundra
3 [B] Island (3)
3 [B] Plains (1)
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [B] Underground Sea
1 [B] Scrubland
1 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 [LRW] Jace Beleren

// Spells
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [TE] Humility
2 [B] Wrath of God
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [OD] Standstill
3 [IA] Brainstorm
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [TSP] Return to Dust
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 4 [CNF] Path to Exile
SB: 1 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 2 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
SB: 1 [B] Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 1 [SHM] Fracturing Gust
SB: 3 [CS] Counterbalance/ MM/ Runed halo/ Engineered plague/ more blasts

Benie Bederios
05-18-2009, 06:12 PM
Hey NQN,

Why did you post your report three times???

I played a smaller tournament Saturday and ended second after Merfolk. Every matchup felt good except the final. Any idea how to beat that deck. I played a Vindicate list with 4 Engineered Plague in the SB.

Thanks

mossivo1986
05-18-2009, 06:21 PM
4 PTE works nicely out of the board. You can still win pre-board and I think the legitimate removal package post board is:

4 sword
4 PTE
3 EE
2 Wrath
1 Humility or 3rd Wrath

So what to minus against this monster of a deck.

2 decree
2 relic

Simple enough:) If they play green for goyf side out wish instead to mantain your relics. +1 if your severly uncomfortable with goyf.

Wasteland
05-19-2009, 04:47 AM
Why Vendillion Clique over Counterspell? It is a crappy 3/1 critter thats bad under Humility and not even does real card-advantage (your opponent may draw a good card for the one you take him, exspecially if he has a Top in play...)
And why only 3 Brainstorms??? If there's any card (exept Force of Will) i would never cut, then it is Brainstorm...
I agree with you that it is possible to cut the 2. Humility and it's sweet to have Relics in the Maindeck.
4 Spell Snares have been proven to be right too.
For reference, here is my actuel list:

http://www.mercadia.de/home/page.php?site=magic/deck2/deck&id=75097

Greetz,
Marius Hausmann

klaus
05-19-2009, 06:35 AM
Why Vendillion Clique over Counterspell? It is a crappy 3/1 critter thats bad under Humility and not even does real card-advantage (your opponent may draw a good card for the one you take him, exspecially if he has a Top in play...)
And why only 3 Brainstorms??? If there's any card (exept Force of Will) i would never cut, then it is Brainstorm...
I agree with you that it is possible to cut the 2. Humility and it's sweet to have Relics in the Maindeck.
4 Spell Snares have been proven to be right too.
For reference, here is my actuel list:

http://www.mercadia.de/home/page.php?site=magic/deck2/deck&id=75097

Greetz,
Marius Hausmann

Marius,
I like your list a lot - if I were to run CunningStill again, I'd probably copy-paste yours - good work.

TheCramp
05-19-2009, 09:26 AM
After testing zoo Ad infinitum I have reversed my opinion about cunning wish. I was concerned, rightly I believe, that it was too slow. Here is the interaction I observed again and again, Zoo lands one or two creatures, which you deal with but not before taking some damage from them. Zoo sandbags their burn untill they have 4 or 5 mana (and pathing their attackers makes this easier for them) and they unload 5 burn spells in one turn FtW. You cannot tap out for FoF or Decree at their eot, because they just respond and blow you out. If you respond to burn, with dig, tht is a signal to open up with Blast and PoP. Even playing around PoP you end up with 2 non-basics in play to be in a position to win. Vindicate, all star in other matches, is a death sentence here. Its too slow, and fails to address their reach in any meaningful way. Main deck PtE helps, but has to be supplementary to other efforts to stop them, drawing 2 PtE as your removal is fucking awful. The ability to wish for Pulse game one is the only devastating play against them.
I am firmly of the opinion that you need to have devastating plays available against your likely match ups. With zoo in ascendency, it has to be addressed. I play zoo, which started out of a desire to understand the deck, but which has become a favorite strategy. It should be noted that PtE is awesome vs Ichorid. Infact it makes me feel like I have a real shot vs them Game one. 3 EE, 6 plow effects, FoW for Dread Return and what not. They obviously ban beat anything with the right opening, but when they don't get it, you have a real shot.

What all this ammounts to is a desire to be able to steal game one from Zoo and Ichorid. The dilemma I am facing it that you can't be configured to do both and keep your solid and commanding matches where they are.

A few thoughts on the counter suits I'm looking at:

3 Counterspells
3 Spell Snares

vs

2 Counterspells
4 Spell Snares

Snare is statigicly superior vs Tempo Thresh and Zoo.

Counterspell is much beter Vs. Ichorid, and Dragon Stompy.

Counter Top hates/is vulnerable to them about equally. I think that Vs. Counter top and the Mirror you mostly want variety, so the 3/3 split is useful because it's harder to play around.

mossivo1986
05-19-2009, 09:45 AM
Marius,
I like your list a lot - if I were to run CunningStill again, I'd probably copy-paste yours - good work.

I pretty much agree. -1 Hum +1 Decree and i'd run it.

As for the cramp:

Yes ANT is a horrible matchup, but my thoughts are maybe counterbalance can win this because its counterbalance and thats what it does :).

Against the new zoo yes pulse is awesome. The idea in these matchups is to soak up some of their burn and alittle of the creatures. This should buy you about 3 turns. After that your in dangerous territory. You need to get pulse asap been playing around them, aka fetching for basics/ removing threats asap, trying to save your swords to either zap your own mishra's or land multiple standstills in the hope that you'll simply out draw to outdraw them with better cards. Its funny because vendillion clique is an auto hotness in this matchup because it smokes their POP or FIREblast. Though they are only running 3 pop and 3 blast to make room for their beats.

NQN
05-19-2009, 10:01 AM
Clique was fine for me all day long, but I donīt think Iīll play it again. It just didnīt had the Impact I want it to have. I donīt think it was because of the lack of Gust, which would have sucked even against affinity. Finks are usual great, IF you are able to draw them. I donīt think my loss to Rg was mainly because of my decklist but just because of bad luck. Iīm going to play some goblins next time I guess :)

3duece
05-19-2009, 11:27 AM
Okay, so it turns out I don't like wish. I'm probably just terrible at magic but everytime I drew it I wanted it to be a vindicate or force of will. I'm going back to a vindicate model with no maindeck wrath. Does anyone here run the full vindicate playset? I think I want a spotremoval.dec approach, so I'm going to try it. Looking at my list, do you guys think I should keep the single crucible or up wasteland to four?
3 flooded strand
3 polluted delta
3 mishra's factory
3 wasteland
4 tundra
1 underground sea
1 scrubland
2 island
2 plains
1 swamp

4 brainstorm
3 standstill
2 fact or fiction
2 sensei's divining top
2 counterspell
4 spell snare
4 force of will

4 swords to plowshares
4 vindicate
3 engineered explosives
2 elspeth, knight errant
2 decree of justice
1 crucible of worlds

4 blue elemental blast
3 runed halo
3 relic of projentus
2 tormod's crypt
3 wrath of god (only really want it against goblins and merfolk)

TheCramp
05-19-2009, 12:18 PM
@ 3duece, depends on your meta, if you face a shit ton of midrange, your list is dope. But your a sitting duck for combo and fast agro. Take that for what you will. But if your meta is a ton of midrange argo and control I would go 2 vindicate 2 Humility. Humility makes Elspeth and Factory scary scary scary. When her soldiers start trading with tombstalkers, Goyfs, and terravors and the factories just eat them... well your in a good position. Also, you can tap out for humility against Ichorid T4 and win long long games against them from time to time.

@ Mossivo, yup I pack 3 CB side. It comes in Vs Zoo, and combo. I love it. I think I have given up on halo. Useless vs. zoo if they pack Pridemage, and ANT just bounces it after chanting. Yeah in my Zoo build I run 4 PoP, it is the 3rd un negotiable card alongside 'Goyf, Nactle, and Lightning Bolt (ok 4th.) It's that good. Also, w/ 4 goyf it helps to overwhelm Spell Snare. I also pack Sulphours Vortex in the side which can give control decks fits. If your playing against a zoo deck with helix, Pulse is even better.

I need to test Clique, I can't take anyone's word for it, I need to try it for myself. But it seems like a card I love. Push away a burn card, block your attacker, profit. Cycle a redundant land, or Elspeth, or whatever. Clock your opponent in the dome ftw, etc. I must give it a shot. I do dislike its disynergy with humility. Seems cool with moat. Moat has dropped in value with the use of pridemage however. (I like it better than trygon in many ways.)

Here is the list I have refined to for the tournament I am hitting up Saturday.

Land [23]:

1 Academy Ruins
1 Dust Bowl
3 Usine de Mishra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
4 Island
2 Plains
2 Poluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra

Counter Suit:
3 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will

Draw:
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
2 Sensei's Divining Top

Removal:
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
2 Wrath of God
2 Humility
3 Engineered Explosives

Win Con:
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Decree of Justice
1 Crucible of Worlds

Side:
3 Counterbalance
3 BEB
2 Plague
3 Relic
2 Pulse
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Top

I may shift things to include Cunning Wish and change the side. I like Pulse better than Ajani for what its worth.

3duece
05-19-2009, 12:44 PM
My meta right now is heavy aggrocontrol like countertop everywhere, none of them play more than ten creatures, usually eight. Then there's combo and the mirror. I love vindicate/wasteland in the mirror 'cause I know I hate land destruction myself. As for combo, do you think the three runed halo would be better as counterbalance?

mossivo1986
05-19-2009, 01:10 PM
they go together in the side. Ajani is an auto 2 of in the wish sb for a list of reasons.

Zach Tartell
05-19-2009, 01:13 PM
I have zero idea what an Usine of Mishra is. Factory? You're from Connecticut - not... France?

rockout
05-19-2009, 01:19 PM
I have french, german, and italian factorys. :cool:

3duece
05-19-2009, 02:09 PM
Has anyone been working on versions of landstill that play two or less standstills? It seems like a natural progression with the current abundance of decks running wasteland with either factory or mutavault. Is scepterchant the only way to go with this? Or would something with the third elspeth and maybe fact or fiction/intuition/wish in place of standstill be viable? There must be people around here who have tried other options, post up your ideas.

mossivo1986
05-19-2009, 04:40 PM
Has anyone been working on versions of landstill that play two or less standstills? It seems like a natural progression with the current abundance of decks running wasteland with either factory or mutavault. Is scepterchant the only way to go with this? Or would something with the third elspeth and maybe fact or fiction/intuition/wish in place of standstill be viable? There must be people around here who have tried other options, post up your ideas.

Yes; it's called itf. Theres no reason to not run standstill in this deck.

The fundamental cards are amazingly synergystic together and without them you just have a goodstuff deck "itf"

TheCramp
05-19-2009, 05:11 PM
I have zero idea what an Usine of Mishra is. Factory? You're from Connecticut - not... France?

J'habite dans le Connecticut. Vous ętes correct, ce titre est en Franįais!

Moss, what are your thoughts on the auto 2 of Ajani in a wish board, or can you direct me to something you have wrote on the matter? Thanks.

Sigar
05-19-2009, 06:59 PM
they go together in the side. Ajani is an auto 2 of in the wish sb for a list of reasons.

In which MUs do the Ajanis shine? Please tell me why they are good.

mossivo1986
05-19-2009, 07:24 PM
Its funny I was looking at the threads earlier posts to when I joined and I couldn't find where I asked the exact same question.

The best explanation I can give you at the current time is that for non wish versions its your Pulse of the fields; mainly being the bare minimum of anti burn that you can have.

For Wish versions it is additional yes, but it helps you in the following matches

-Mirror "more plainswalkers= I win"
-RDW Consistent life
-loam "They can't really kill it."
-Ant "They can't kill it, and its a faster 1 turn clock when you get the token"
-MUC "They can't really stop it, and it pretty much screws them from a win, and equals a draw becuse of the rediculous life gain.
- Other "Because its just fricken sweet, almost maindeckable with decree"

Theres more but I simply don't have enough time or energy to state it.

rsaunder
05-19-2009, 08:12 PM
So you'd recommend SB pulse over ajani in non-wish versions? I'm confused.

TheCramp
05-19-2009, 08:41 PM
I'm reading, don't bother with Pulse if your not running wish, use Ajani regardless 'cause its degenerate. I do have to say I was playing a buddies T2 deck the other day and got out Ajani and Elspeth at the same time which just busted the match in two. There was a screeching 180 and I was the beatdown. It was glorious. I love those damn white planeswalkers.

Misplayer
05-19-2009, 08:44 PM
Yes; it's called itf. Theres no reason to not run standstill in this deck.

The fundamental cards are amazingly synergystic together and without them you just have a goodstuff deck "itf"

Not quite, ITF has a Goyf plan, an Intuition/Loam package and is built around CB/Top. Control without Standstill <> ITF.

To 3duece, some lists with fewer Standstills have been discussed here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=334258&#post334196) and here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=334258&#post334258) mostly focused around CB/Top. Even if you can only consistently flip for 1 with CB, a 1-sided Chalice for 1 still seems good. I (obviously) think that a UWx Elspeth-based control build is very viable and worth exploring, (just look at the reports on here "Elspeth for the win" and so forth, it seems pretty clear that Elspeth is the key card in the deck, not Standstill). There just doesn't seem to be enough interest in developing the archetype.

mossivo1986
05-19-2009, 09:29 PM
So you'd recommend SB pulse over ajani in non-wish versions? I'm confused.

No, what i'm saying is that wish versions should run at the bare minimum:
1 pulse
1 tutor
1 return to dust/ krosan grip/ seed spark "if your running green"
1 pate "if your running black"
1-4 path
2 blast
2 ajani
1-3 relic

non wish versions should probobly run:
2-3 ajani
3 blast

Benie Bederios
05-20-2009, 03:30 AM
-Ant "They can't kill it, and its a faster 1 turn clock when you get the token"


Wait... So you want to board in a 4-mana lifegainer against a stormdeck what goes of turn 2/3, that seems foolish. I would rather board in a complete set of Relilc of Progenitus( next to 4 Meddling Mages) before Ajani, tapping out on turn 4 to gain 2 life is really bad.

How do you board against ANT? I normally only remove masremoval( WoG, Humility) 1 Fact and Eternal Dragon a Plow and a Standstill. for 6 slots. I rather leave 3 plows in, if my opponent might play Confidant or Xantid Swarm.

Benie

mossivo1986
05-20-2009, 03:41 AM
Meddling mage is practicly dead to me. Its only truly usefull against specific combo and SOMETIMES in the mirror

gustha
05-20-2009, 04:28 AM
It's really usefull against specific combo (except for wipe away), slows down dredge, calls some cards to burn to gain time. However, its role has diminished in mirror matches (too many removals to call, they go path if you name swords, swords if you name EE, etc. etc.), and also in certain aggroloam Mu's. Practically dead against black based and tribal aggro, never sided in against thresh or the like (now countertop, according to the new DTB section). He's still in my board, but it's maybe likely to go out. The fact is I don't know that for. Last tournament I hade 3 BeB's and they proved pretty useless, so i got back to 3 extirpate (3 relics and all my stp were not enough to stop ichorid, and they prove better than mages in mirror mathces and against aggro loam; though they're not that good anymore vs combo); thus improves my ichorid/grave/mirror Mu's, on the other hand burn/zoo is a pain in the ass without beb's (seen 0 zoo's last tournament: unbelievable). Leaving mage out won't touch to much the grave Mu (though I want ALL the weapons I can have against damned ichorid), while in the other hand this wil decrease the combo MU. Maybe tidehollow sculler is more effective, but mage is more versatile while sculler is far more dedicate to specific MU's. And 3 counterbalance with 2 top does not sound that good Also, I have to find something against blakc based (or change deck for a while, maybe dragon stompy is better...:mad: )

My side:
3 extirpate
3 meddling
2 ajani
3 relics
2 eng plague
2 open slot (last time was uselss 4th mage + far more useless cop:red)

mossivo1986
05-20-2009, 05:30 AM
It's really usefull against specific combo (except for wipe away), slows down dredge, calls some cards to burn to gain time. However, its role has diminished in mirror matches (too many removals to call, they go path if you name swords, swords if you name EE, etc. etc.), and also in certain aggroloam Mu's. Practically dead against black based and tribal aggro, never sided in against thresh or the like (now countertop, according to the new DTB section). He's still in my board, but it's maybe likely to go out. The fact is I don't know that for. Last tournament I hade 3 BeB's and they proved pretty useless, so i got back to 3 extirpate (3 relics and all my stp were not enough to stop ichorid, and they prove better than mages in mirror mathces and against aggro loam; though they're not that good anymore vs combo); thus improves my ichorid/grave/mirror Mu's, on the other hand burn/zoo is a pain in the ass without beb's (seen 0 zoo's last tournament: unbelievable). Leaving mage out won't touch to much the grave Mu (though I want ALL the weapons I can have against damned ichorid), while in the other hand this wil decrease the combo MU. Maybe tidehollow sculler is more effective, but mage is more versatile while sculler is far more dedicate to specific MU's. And 3 counterbalance with 2 top does not sound that good Also, I have to find something against blakc based (or change deck for a while, maybe dragon stompy is better...:mad: )

My side:
3 extirpate
3 meddling
2 ajani
3 relics
2 eng plague
2 open slot (last time was uselss 4th mage + far more useless cop:red)

Ichorid giving you problems? Really?
You literally have 15 good sidebord cards in that matchup and your still having problems with it? In fact the worst card you have is probobly pate against ichorid.

gustha
05-20-2009, 07:52 AM
And in fact, along with MM, those are the worst slot in my SB...BEB never proved useful (red decks I face are for the most not burn, and so I'm not concerned about beb's), but pate really seems too specific to be good... at last, it helps a little against pikula et similia, just to pate away some disruption tools... but it's a poor plan... Yet I'm sicks of the same plan which goes on from a couple of tournament: losing to merfolk (always the same player) and to dredge (always the same player, the only who plays ichorid after black based decks has slowly achieved a good portion of the meta: this makes me angry twice). 3 Extirpate seems quite good to stop gaveyard games, and also do what it's worth to in mirror matches. It's incredibly dead in some other, though, and does say very little to combo MU's. Making the sb every tournament leads me in an existential crisis every time...

mossivo1986
05-20-2009, 08:18 AM
And in fact, along with MM, those are the worst slot in my SB...BEB never proved useful (red decks I face are for the most not burn, and so I'm not concerned about beb's), but pate really seems too specific to be good... at last, it helps a little against pikula et similia, just to pate away some disruption tools... but it's a poor plan... Yet I'm sicks of the same plan which goes on from a couple of tournament: losing to merfolk (always the same player) and to dredge (always the same player, the only who plays ichorid after black based decks has slowly achieved a good portion of the meta: this makes me angry twice). 3 Extirpate seems quite good to stop gaveyard games, and also do what it's worth to in mirror matches. It's incredibly dead in some other, though, and does say very little to combo MU's. Making the sb every tournament leads me in an existential crisis every time...

Fuck pikula. That deck is so dead its in the same scenario as death and taxes and eva green. Those matchups should be easy for you.

Ichorid is tough, but completely winnable with 33 wrath of god relic humility and if you run it +4 path to exile in the side which enables you to hit merfolk matchup as well. Ichorid is such a flimsy deck that if you sideboard 8 cards in landstill against it I would really be suprised, let alone 15!!!

gustha
05-20-2009, 03:21 PM
Not when, form a goblin-zoo meta which is nuts for landstill, pikula rock eva green and pox becomeds suddendly the 55% of the meta (talking about 50+ people)... here path to exile is of no use... and those Mu's are not that easy...

mossivo1986
05-20-2009, 05:17 PM
Not when, form a goblin-zoo meta which is nuts for landstill, pikula rock eva green and pox becomeds suddendly the 55% of the meta (talking about 50+ people)... here path to exile is of no use... and those Mu's are not that easy...

Ok first you mentioned Ichorid and Merfolk, now your taking me to goblin, zoo, and pox.

I need to specify what your wants and current list is. You will need to PM me again. When you pm me tell me by which percent your meta "you say" would be what.

Ex.
30% gobos
10% ichorid
70% merfok

ect. ect.

I need more clarification before I can understand what your fully saying.

Misplayer
05-21-2009, 08:03 AM
Played a small local event last night with a UWg list. I ran the standard 10x10x10 config with 2 Elspeth, 2 Relic, E Tutor, Crucible, Humility (although I count this as part of the removal suite) rounding out the utility slots. Splashed one Tropical Island to set EE to 3 and play Grip out of the board.

I went 2-1, crushing Progenitus Thresh Variant w/Standstill and Meathooks, but I was worked over pretty hard by Nassif's GP list. Counterbalance rocked me hard both games. I don't understand how anyone thinks they can "play around it" with Landstill. Now I should note that my opponent caught some good breaks: Game 1 I go for Elspeth with 1 mana up for Daze and Force backup. He has 3 cards in hand. He Dazes, I pay, he Dazes, I Force, he Dazes. He also flipped for 3, 4, and 5 off CB. Game 2 he opens with Top, Bob, CB, Goyf (Spell Snared), Trygon with Force backup for my EE. He later shows me that he was holding back 2 Bob and 2 Goyf in hand.

Anyway, under CB/Top here's the cards in your deck that are basically dead when you draw them: Top, Brainstorm, Standstill, Counterspell, Spell Snare, Swords. So under CB/Top you're already down to about 1/3-1/2 of your non-land cards that are effective. If your opponent can find and float a 4cc, forget about it. Good players also save Force for relevant spells, which are about 3 cards: Elspeth, Humility and EE. I'm considering cutting Relics for Grips and adding a 2nd Trop just because CB is such a problem. Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but I don't understand how any Landstill list that's not running Vindicate can expect to win under CB/Top against a competent player. Someone help me out here.

3duece
05-21-2009, 10:17 AM
Were you not running decree and mishra's factory? Those are your mvps in that match.

Misplayer
05-21-2009, 12:22 PM
Factories were answered by Shackles game 1, I saw none game 2 (he had Shackles again anyway). I don't run Decree, but he had Plague on soldier to shut off Elspeth game 2. It was a total blowout.

rockout
05-21-2009, 12:38 PM
He had Plague on soldier to shut off Elspeth game 2. It was a total blowout.

That's pretty savage. I've seen plague on soldier once in my year or more of playing landstill and ended up drawing because I failed at getting rid of the plague. Granted, anything running blue that isn't combo is something we should break our foots off in their... Whether they run cb, tempo based, or have shackles with other stuff, we should have really good match ups there its just sometimes they god draw when you have a slow hand and we end up playing catch up all game.

Maxe
05-21-2009, 01:26 PM
how is ur Sideboard with cbalnce looks like with wishstill?

mossivo1986
05-21-2009, 01:41 PM
Factories were answered by Shackles game 1, I saw none game 2 (he had Shackles again anyway). I don't run Decree, but he had Plague on soldier to shut off Elspeth game 2. It was a total blowout.

The only cards you care about in nassif's model are the following in this order:

1. Counterbalance
2. BOB
3. Force of will

If you can stop these 3 then you win. Goyf is answered by relic/swords/ee/wrath/ wish for path ect. ect. The main key here is spell snare is for only balance and bob, anything else and you mine as well just take the damage from the goyf or figure it out. EP should have been shut off by academy ruins ee recrursion. See heres how that matchup goes. They try to cast some neat 2cc shit, you get rid of it. They try to top some more into play, you answer bob #3 and balance #2. Once you reach this stage in the game you are only looking for ee +academy ruins. That lock wins this matchup hands down.

Misplayer
05-21-2009, 02:39 PM
It's all good when you can Spell Snare a Counterbalance, but once that thing hits play it's an uphill battle unless you've already established an advantageous board position (i.e. Elspeth) or you're well into the late-game. He beat me for 4 a turn with Bob and Trygon and I couldn't answer either one.

In a battle of good players (meaning players who can identify relevant spells that should be countered), I think it really comes down to who has Force backup. If I resolve EE game 2 I likely stabilize before he draws 53 cards off Bob. If he doesn't have triple Daze game 1 Elspeth likely gets there. Thanks for the affirmation that this isn't a terrible matchup that deserves hate-slots, but I am going up to 4 Spell Snare (as has been suggested before)

mossivo1986
05-21-2009, 03:08 PM
It's all good when you can Spell Snare a Counterbalance, but once that thing hits play it's an uphill battle unless you've already established an advantageous board position (i.e. Elspeth) or you're well into the late-game. He beat me for 4 a turn with Bob and Trygon and I couldn't answer either one.

In a battle of good players (meaning players who can identify relevant spells that should be countered), I think it really comes down to who has Force backup. If I resolve EE game 2 I likely stabilize before he draws 53 cards off Bob. If he doesn't have triple Daze game 1 Elspeth likely gets there. Thanks for the affirmation that this isn't a terrible matchup that deserves hate-slots, but I am going up to 4 Spell Snare (as has been suggested before)

I hear 4 spell snare is the way to go.

... Irony is awesome.

Citrus-God
05-21-2009, 06:22 PM
Factories were answered by Shackles game 1, I saw none game 2 (he had Shackles again anyway). I don't run Decree, but he had Plague on soldier to shut off Elspeth game 2. It was a total blowout.

If you had Decrees, you could have just hardcast DoJ for Angel tokens.

mossivo1986
05-21-2009, 06:42 PM
If you had Decrees, you could have just hardcast DoJ for Angel tokens.

He has a point. Angel tokens if you play the way I told you should be the right approach. That or just prolonging elspeth or jace or smoking them with mishra, vendillion is always fun.

3duece
05-21-2009, 09:57 PM
I've also found vindicate to be great against cb. People talk alot about how counterbalance decks hit 3cc consistently now but it's bullshit. It's usually either snake, war monk or vindicate itself, rarely more than four cards.

rockout
05-21-2009, 10:02 PM
I've also found vindicate to be great against cb.

Plus EE.

Charlatan
05-22-2009, 01:40 PM
I was wondering about intuition in Landstill's MD...

Nowadays, landstill's engine works with EE, academy ruin and crucible/loam...

wwhy not cut FoF and add intuition?

I know that topdeck FoF in the late game is great...

or even balance FoF with intuition...

mossivo1986
05-22-2009, 02:41 PM
I was wondering about intuition in Landstill's MD...

Nowadays, landstill's engine works with EE, academy ruin and crucible/loam...

wwhy not cut FoF and add intuition?

I know that topdeck FoF in the late game is great...

or even balance FoF with intuition...


Ive toyed with playing a dedicated green splash before, seems good but i've never been totally sold on it.- Konsultant

Also note that everyone of the regulars here has tested some sort of a combination of green and it is very difficult to fit into todays metagame without hozing some of your matchups. In alot of cases your just better of running mystical tutor.

Shawn
05-22-2009, 03:19 PM
I was wondering about intuition in Landstill's MD...

I tried a UWg list and it was really good against mid-range decks like Survival and Loam. A lot of decks have huge problems with EE+Ruins game one, and I was playing a basic forest so I could just bring back Ruins whenever I wanted against Aggro Loam due to my own LFTL. Also, many Counterbalance thresh lists are cold to Ruins+EE game one. Intuition is extremely clunky, however, and the list had problems with fast aggro. Also, Intuition is susceptible to graveyard hate post board which is super annoying.

Tolaria West is another option. It can't be countered, (except for Stifle) and allows for a B splash instead of G. You can run a pair of Ruins for Intuition piles in a non-green splash, but that only allows for an EE, Ruins, Ruins pile or a Crucible, Ruins, Ruins pile instead of Loam, Ruins, EE or Loam, Wasteland/Dust Bowl, Ruins. Often when I was playing the UWg list, I found myself finding half of a lock piece when I had the other in my hand, so Tolaria West would've done essential the same thing.

mossivo1986
05-22-2009, 05:41 PM
I tried a UWg list and it was really good against mid-range decks like Survival and Loam. A lot of decks have huge problems with EE+Ruins game one, and I was playing a basic forest so I could just bring back Ruins whenever I wanted against Aggro Loam due to my own LFTL. Also, many Counterbalance thresh lists are cold to Ruins+EE game one. Intuition is extremely clunky, however, and the list had problems with fast aggro. Also, Intuition is susceptible to graveyard hate post board which is super annoying.

Tolaria West is another option. It can't be countered, (except for Stifle) and allows for a B splash instead of G. You can run a pair of Ruins for Intuition piles in a non-green splash, but that only allows for an EE, Ruins, Ruins pile or a Crucible, Ruins, Ruins pile instead of Loam, Ruins, EE or Loam, Wasteland/Dust Bowl, Ruins. Often when I was playing the UWg list, I found myself finding half of a lock piece when I had the other in my hand, so Tolaria West would've done essential the same thing.

Ew just no.

You need to be running Green splash if you run intuition IF. But if your going this route mystical tutor is much more consistent as I was saying before. RuinsX2 is deffinately not the way to go. Yes i've tested it, and its just terrible.

Shawn
05-22-2009, 06:01 PM
I wasn't recommending it, I was just saying it is possible. Even with the green splash I wouldn't run Intuition before any of these cards: Fact or Fiction, Top, Cunning Wish, or Ponder.

3duece
05-22-2009, 09:44 PM
The thing about the green splash and intuition in landstill is that you start playing engines that make standstill bad. If you want to run intuition with an academy/loam/explosives package then you also want etched oracle because it's ridiculous. And then you want tarmogoyf because you run out of ways to protect yourself while you set the shit up. Then you want stronghold and eternal witness because an intuition pile with them and any other card is also ridiculous. And then you want counterbalance because all your shit costs one and two.

And then you belong in the ITF thread.

rockout
05-22-2009, 09:59 PM
And then you find out that ITF blows.

3duece
05-23-2009, 09:17 AM
ITF is funny to me because it's really just countertop thresh and a bunch of other synergies that never happen.

Anyone ever go up to four wasteland in this deck?

Ch@os
05-23-2009, 10:54 AM
ITF is funny to me because it's really just countertop thresh and a bunch of other synergies that never happen.


:laugh: yes, EE&Deed + recurring creatures never happen in ITF.

3duece
05-23-2009, 02:37 PM
I mean, not to make this into an ITF thread or anything, but that stuff really doesn't happen as much as ITF players like to make it sound. That deck wins by countertop lock and goyf beats, pure and simple. It has a ton of awesome utility that it can't use under pressure without countertop lock because setting up and using the engines are clunky, fragile and expensive. And it doesn't run enough win conditions. Or card draw. Also, I don't care what the advocates say, I've extirpated tropical island against ITF before, and the deck just falls apart. Etched Oracle FTW? I don't think so.

Mister Agent
05-24-2009, 03:06 PM
When playing against ITF I always find countering their intuitions to be a productive strategy. ITF can be a difficult deck to deal with if you let their intuitions resolve. Intuition is basically a strictly better version of Fact or fiction for them so you should counter it.

Also they can keep you under a pretty hard lock if they board in engineered plague(naming soldiers) while making just about all of your spells obsolete with countertop. Also vindicate can be minimal against ITF since alot of their spells are around the 3cc range.

Citrus-God
05-24-2009, 03:08 PM
When playing against ITF I always find countering their intuitions to be a productive strategy. ITF can be a difficult deck to deal with if you let their intuitions resolve. Intuition is basically a strictly better version of Fact or fiction for them so you should counter it.

Also they can keep you under a pretty hard lock if they board in engineered plague(naming soldiers) while making just about all of your spells obsolete with countertop. Also vindicate can be minimal against ITF since alot of their spells are around the 3cc range.

So you play Cunning Wish and Fact or Fictions. Even Gearhart will admit that straight up card advantage is good against ITF if the control deck makes good use of the said card advantage.

Mister Agent
05-24-2009, 03:17 PM
So you play Cunning Wish and Fact or Fictions. Even Gearhart will admit that straight up card advantage is good against ITF if the control deck makes good use of the said card advantage.

Good point, this is another reason why I think Cunning Wish should be put back into Landstill especially since alot of us still run Fact or Fiction.

mossivo1986
05-24-2009, 04:15 PM
Good point, this is another reason why I think Cunning Wish should be put back into Landstill especially since alot of us still run Fact or Fiction.

SDT>FOF
All day long.

Citrus-God
05-24-2009, 04:22 PM
So I tried building a version of Landstill with a positive Merfolk match-up and still maintaining a positive match up against the rest of the field, like NLU, Thresh, Aggro Loam, Goblins and Zoo. I will openly admit that I do not have any combo hate. Combo is our worst match up, and putting things in the sideboard just to prepare for a rarely played deck weakens a lot of our other match ups, especially against Threshold and other NLU variants.

So some conclusions to make before we go on to my decklist

- Wasteland > Dust Bowl + Tolaria West. Dust Bowl is good at destroying random crap like Academy Ruins and Volrath's Stronghold, but it can't allow you have a safe ticket to play Standstill early in the game. Wastelands destroy Mutavaults and make sure you can play that Standstill.

- Spell Snares should always go in the maindeck. Always. I don't need to explain this to you because the whole format is 2c. Zoo; NLU and Thresh; Aggro Loam; Survival. You should definitely be packing Spell Snares.

- Boarding in Enchantments against a deck boarding Krosan Grips against you is the best way to break even against decks like Thresh and NLU. You play Humility, EE, or even Runed Halo. Seems like enough, right? Definitely not. You only gain virtual card advantage against those decks until they find that Grip, but by boarding in those cards, they can just stockpile threats in their hand until they find a Grip. With 15+ shuffle effects and 4 SDTs, I highly doubt finding Krosan Grip is a problem. I personally think the best way to capitalize on boarding in Enchantments is play Elspeth when you have the game temporarily in your favor. Then again, playing Elspeth when the game is in your favor works anyway. My proposal? Of course, it's to just straight up trade 1-for-1 with those decks and just cast Elspeth and/or Fact or Fiction and dominate them. The only decks I will ever board Enchantments in against is Goblins and Merfolk, and that's because Engineered Plague actually kills creatures.

Anyways, onto the build:


// Mana 25
2 Eternal Dragon

3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
3 Plains
2 Island


// Spells 36
3 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
2 Fact or Fiction
3 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Cunning Wish
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Wrath of God
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Decree of Justice
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant


// Sideboard 15
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Spell Snare
1 Counterspell
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Path to Exile
1 Return to Dust
1 Fracturing Gust
1 Extirpate
1 Tsabo's Decree
2 Crucible of Worlds
4 Engineered Plague


Yes, I run a 4th Spell Snare and a 4th Counterspell as wish targets. Every game Landstill plays, it loses because of it's lack of flexibility. The best way to make up for it is by playing a toolbox. An actual toolbox. Every so often, you will board in that 4th Spell Snare, and that 4th Counterspell if you're playing against Aggro Loam or Landstill mirror.

Crucible of Worlds is amazing. You obviously board it in against Merfolk. Destroying Mutavaults and recovering your mana base is tech. Also, getting that Stifled fetchland back just so you can get a black source for Plague is very satisfying.

NQN
05-24-2009, 04:41 PM
You tried to get a good game against meerfolk by making the manabase worse and the spells even more clunky? Wish, FoF, CS and DoJ are horrible cards against them and even Wrath isnīt really good(since they have LD+Scratcher+Daze). To make things even worse you cutted Brainstorm AND top, the two best cards available against fast strategies.
Sorry man, that looks like the worst try ever :/

EDIT: Ah, and that Wishboard sucks too. IF I ever play Wish (which rarely happens today) Iīd go for 1 Pulse, 1 R2D,1 E.Tutor and MAYBE an Extirpate. To get a good Merrow matchup just go for 4 plagues 3-4 Path to Exiles and a GOOD maindeck. My worst result against those ******s was 1-1.

3duece
05-24-2009, 05:10 PM
/\
a little harsh

I think the maindeck is good, you have dragons to keep the lands flowing. I actually just tested wish alot, including the merfolk match and found vindicate to be much, much better. This is the list I'm rolling with at the moment.

3 factory
3 wasteland
3 strand
3 delta
4 tundra
1 sea
1 scrubland
2 island
2 plains
1 swamp

4 brainstorm
3 standstill
2 top
2 fact of fiction
1 counterspell
4 spell snare
4 force of will

4 swords
4 vindicate
3 ee
2 wrath
2 decree
2 elspeth

Mister Agent
05-24-2009, 06:38 PM
You tried to get a good game against meerfolk by making the manabase worse and the spells even more clunky? Wish, FoF, CS and DoJ are horrible cards against them and even Wrath isnīt really good(since they have LD+Scratcher+Daze). To make things even worse you cutted Brainstorm AND top, the two best cards available against fast strategies.


Why do you think he runs Eternal Dragon then? E. dragon is like the ultimate manafixer in UW(x) Landstill. Not to mention, Citrus also runs a handful of plains and islands as well.

In a more control oriented style of landstill, I'd rather run FoF over top because Top just filters cards and that doesn't really do that much when Pure Blue Control wants to draw as many cards as possible.


EDIT: Ah, and that Wishboard sucks too. IF I ever play Wish (which rarely happens today) Iīd go for 1 Pulse, 1 R2D,1 E.Tutor and MAYBE an Extirpate. To get a good Merrow matchup just go for 4 plagues 3-4 Path to Exiles and a GOOD maindeck. My worst result against those ******s was 1-1.

I don't think E. tutor is really that great as a wishboard target since the maindeck runs alot of answers already and most of the time wishing for a better instant is the better call like Fact or Fiction or Path to Exile. It'll be better to wish for something that can immediately effect the board state or draw you cards.

His wishboard is quite similiar to what Konsultant ran and did well with so maybe the word "sucks" doesn't have any correlation whatsoever.

Hitman82
05-24-2009, 08:46 PM
I agree with the above poster; Enlightened Tutor in the board is a horribly inefficient use of two tutors.

I've been thinking of cutting a Standstill for a Fact or Fiction. I've come to think that it's the worst card in the deck. Due to the nature of a control deck, you're often going to have an inferior board state in the early game and having Standstill in your hand is close to the worst possible card ever. I'd really only like to play one with a single Enlightened Tutor but I'm only cutting one right now for a Fact or Fiction.

Another idea I've being throwing around is cutting down to one Standstill and running two Cunning Wish.

What do all you Landstill players think of Standstill, in general? Obviously, it's good in certain situations but my question is whether it's good enough in general to warrant three mainboard slots.

mossivo1986
05-24-2009, 09:24 PM
+1 NQN: Duesche bag comment of the day


I agree with the above poster; Enlightened Tutor in the board is a horribly inefficient use of two tutors.

You obviously haven't tutor'd for Humility/Top/ Standstill/ EE with wish-Tutor= Answer theory then. I'd consider testing it before you talked about it. Especially as tutor for humility is one of the strongest t4,5 plays landstill can make other then elspeth.



I've been thinking of cutting a Standstill for a Fact or Fiction.

Been there done that, jace was better and I tested FOF,Relic, Wish so I could get it back if I wanted to cast it again. That only ever happened like twice EVER. Jace is strictly better for the slot and the cc.


I've come to think that it's the worst card in the deck. Due to the nature of a control deck, you're often going to have an inferior board state in the early game and having Standstill in your hand is close to the worst possible card ever. I'd really only like to play one with a single Enlightened Tutor but I'm only cutting one right now for a Fact or Fiction.

Then your not playing enough spells in the early game. If your constantly finding yourself looking on the downside of a tempo game then you need to reconfigure your list.


Another idea I've being throwing around is cutting down to one Standstill and running two Cunning Wish.

3 Standstill, 2 wish is fine.


What do all you Landstill players think of Standstill, in general? Obviously, it's good in certain situations but my question is whether it's good enough in general to warrant three mainboard slots.

yes its good.

rockout
05-24-2009, 09:38 PM
What do all you Landstill players think of Standstill, in general? Obviously, it's good in certain situations but my question is whether it's good enough in general to warrant three mainboard slots.

I can't tell you how many times I've gone, "oh you don't have a turn 1 play?" T2 standstill and ride the card advantage train to an easy victory.

Playing Standstill when you have 0 cards in hand and your opponent has 5+ keeps you in the game.

I don't even know why I am defending standstill. This thread kind of pisses me off sometimes because of stuff like the above quote.

Careful its sunny out there: :cool:

Hitman82
05-24-2009, 10:02 PM
@ Mossivo - I didn't think of Jace. He actually sounds really good.

About Enlightened Tutor, I know how strong it is because I mainboard one with a Crucible, Moat and Vedalken Shackles. Wishing for an Enlightened Tutor is inefficient because you're usually doing that in a tribal matchup where you don't have the time. You're fighting through Wastelands, Stifles or Rishadan Ports while digging for a Wish to tutor for a one-of silver bullet.

@ Rockout - I promise I'm not trying to piss anyone off. It was a question. I thought forums were for answering questions. Sorry for ruining your day.

Citrus-God
05-24-2009, 10:22 PM
You tried to get a good game against meerfolk by making the manabase worse and the spells even more clunky? Wish, FoF, CS and DoJ are horrible cards against them and even Wrath isnīt really good(since they have LD+Scratcher+Daze). To make things even worse you cut Brainstorm AND top, the two best cards available against fast strategies.
Sorry man, that looks like the worst try ever :/

I'm not the person running 6 fetchlands and getting Stifled all the time. I'm also not the person who cuts Lands. Ask Goblin_Snowman, my teammate. While playtesting, I thrashed him so hard, you have no idea.

Also, relying on EE sucks. Seriously, they just Stifle that shit. That's fucking stupid, just play fucking Wraths.

Also, their LD is tres pathetic. Stifle didn't do squat and Wastelands only ever hit my Factories, not the my lands. If they do, then I cast Standstill and draw into my lands again.

Wish, FoF, CS and DoJ serve their purpose really well. I've counted so many games where I just cycle DoJ, make surprise blockers and just kill off their entire army. If they cast Stifle, oh goodie, they suck at counter wars. I'll just counter that Stifle. Counterspell help me win counterwars and FoF just draws me cards.


EDIT: Ah, and that Wishboard sucks too. IF I ever play Wish (which rarely happens today) Iīd go for 1 Pulse, 1 R2D,1 E.Tutor and MAYBE an Extirpate. To get a good Merrow matchup just go for 4 plagues 3-4 Path to Exiles and a GOOD maindeck. My worst result against those ******s was 1-1.

You obviously don't play with Wish very much, at all. In playtesting, I've only lost against them once during playtesting. It gets better when I board Plagues in against them.

rockout
05-24-2009, 10:29 PM
@ Rockout - I promise I'm not trying to piss anyone off. It was a question. I thought forums were for answering questions. Sorry for ruining your day.

I agree that boards are for answering questions but when you ask why not run 1 standstill then that tells me that you haven't read any of this thread that has a lot of really good information in terms of mana base, the right numbers for each slot, and great sideboarding strategy that I wish everyone would read.

Citrus-God
05-24-2009, 10:35 PM
I agree that boards are for answering questions but when you ask why not run 1 standstill then that tells me that you haven't read any of this thread that has a lot of really good information in terms of mana base, the right numbers for each slot, and great sideboarding strategy that I wish everyone would read.

Yeah, but the only people who ever actually read through this thread are Landstill players. Most players who come in just to skim and check out the latest builds are just people trying to metagame and such.

rockout
05-24-2009, 10:59 PM
Yeah, but the only people who ever actually read through this thread are Landstill players. Most players who come in just to skim and check out the latest builds are just people trying to metagame and such.

Good for them. I hope they do. I want to whip my dick out and smack them in the face at my next tournament.

Careful its sunny out there: :cool:

Berzerked
05-24-2009, 11:31 PM
Ok, so I've never played with Jace before, but since a lot of people are talking very highly of him I'm obviously going to start testing.
Question, though: are you guys speeding up the game by a turn each activation by giving him +1, or expecting just to draw 3 by giving him the -1? Or does it depend on the matchup, board position, what's in your hand, etc.?
I'm only asking because I just can't see wanting to have my opponent draw as well. Symmetrical effects are only good if your deck is better equipped to take advantage of said effect. Landstill isn't, as we can only play one land per turn anyway. Therefore it seems to me that decks that operate on a lower curve would gain too much from our own Jace.
Is this thinking correct? Let me know!

rockout
05-25-2009, 09:48 AM
If the deck you are playing is fast like zoo, combo, burn, so on, I would just advise drawing a card each turn and letting jace die. Any other deck going 3 for their 1 is really good and can easily bury them in CA to the point of no return.

mossivo1986
05-25-2009, 11:10 AM
If the deck you are playing is fast like zoo, combo, burn, so on, I would just advise drawing a card each turn and letting jace die. Any other deck going 3 for their 1 is really good and can easily bury them in CA to the point of no return.

-Unless you know you have an advantage and you are just looking to end said game. Then obviously its a win condition and you can procede to add two counters.

klaus
05-25-2009, 11:32 AM
Also, relying on EE sucks. Seriously, they just Stifle that shit. That's fucking stupid [...].




[@Decree, same post!:]
[...] If they cast Stifle, oh goodie, they suck at counter wars. I'll just counter that Stifle.


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
contradictions ftw!
---

Citrus-God
05-25-2009, 01:49 PM
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
contradictions ftw!
---

In a way, kinda. By the time you use DoJ for that purpose, you can basically afford to protect your DoJ because chances are, you're cycling DoJ for a massive amount. With EE, you tend to use it around midgame when you have about 5-6 lands out.

FredMaster
05-25-2009, 01:56 PM
But you will still have to tap yourself out or at least use plenty of mana to cycle for a decent amount of tokens.
If you are arguing that it is easier to protect a (Finisher-sized) DoJ than an EE for 2-3 Counters, then you are wrong.

mossivo1986
05-25-2009, 02:08 PM
No fred, your wrong.

- Verbal Warning for Spam. Knock that shit off. - Bardo

FredMaster
05-25-2009, 02:12 PM
Nice, could you maybe start giving reasons for your opinion?

klaus
05-25-2009, 02:17 PM
In a way, kinda. By the time you use DoJ for that purpose, you can basically afford to protect your DoJ because chances are, you're cycling DoJ for a massive amount. With EE, you tend to use it around midgame when you have about 5-6 lands out.

During the times I played Decree, I often found myself cycling that early Decree away, just to get rid of it (=> early game).
-
And I don't have the slightest clue what makes you think that EE is an early game card...
-
I'm seconding Fredmaster here: the odds that EE gets stifled successfully are much lower - afterall, you need to use only 2 mana (sacking it the turn after), if you're afraid of Stifle and want to keep counter mana open.
-
Edit: I'm aware how Decree works and that you can wait for the resolution before tapping out and stuff: countering that Stifle = -2 tokens though, plus the spell needs more mana to have an impact - I still don't have a clue why you don't find it just as straight forward...

Citrus-God
05-25-2009, 03:16 PM
And I don't have the slightest clue what makes you think that EE is an early game card...

The fact that you pre-set EE earlier in the game.


I'm seconding Fredmaster here: the odds that EE gets stifled successfully are much lower - afterall, you need to use only 2 mana (sacking it the turn after), if you're afraid of Stifle and want to keep counter mana open.


You can do that too. Good enough.

mossivo1986
05-25-2009, 06:05 PM
Who wants to be the one to get us back on track in terms of landstill?
Agh fuck it, i'll do it. First off i'm no longer responding to dumb questions. If you have questions read through thread, then ask or atleast PM me so I feel priviledged to get back to you whenever the hell I feel like it. And if you catch me in the forums posting when you know you asked a question and I haven't responded I can atleast say oops I forgot to check my messeges because my private box is soo tiny. Thanx mod's.

So without further ado getting back on topic


I am tired of explaning these facts over and over again.

*4 Spell snare is not only necessary but FANTSTIC in this current metagame

*Cunning wish is and has always been good for landstill

*Vendillion clique is AWESOME.

*You cannot run 8 manlands in landstill, its simply too many colorless sources.

*Elspeth(2 Main) is nuts, so is Jace(1 Main, in 4th brainstorm slot), as well as Ajani goldmane(2 Sideboard). These should be standards for all models.

Questions i'd like to be solved:

*How good is counterbalance against ANT in traditional landstill models?

*Is landstill WITHOUT vindicate or wish able to beat Zoo preboard? Whats the matchup analysis?

Last but not least!

*Is black "really" necessary if you run wish? Is red/Green any better?

These are the current questions on my mind and I really believe most people should be focusing on them, as they are really whats important currently.


I lol'd.
Just compare the distances between Northern Germany (us) --> Annecy & Northern Italy --> Annecy, and you'll know why that top16 looks like it does.
http://maps.google.de/maps?hl=de&q=annecy&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl
-
I guess we should move our oh so relevant pseudo-trashtalk to the realm of PMs :rolleyes:
-
I value your standing up for citrus and his flawed logic, though. :tongue:

Thanx, Citrus tends to defend me from time-time and I felt obliged to be wrong for his sake :), though you won't ever see me write that or hear it out of my mouth again, so savor it.

red text is reserved for moderator use so that we can yell at you when you get out of line---frogboy

rockout
05-25-2009, 06:10 PM
There we go back on track. I'll get right to it after this weekends huge tournament.

Careful its sunny out there: :cool:

3duece
05-25-2009, 06:32 PM
Agh fuck it, i'll do it. First off i'm no longer responding to dumb questions. If you have questions read through thread, then ask or atleast PM me so I feel priviledged to get back to you whenever the hell I feel like it. And if you catch me in the forums posting when you know you asked a question and I haven't responded I can atleast say oops I forgot to check my messeges because my private box is soo tiny. Thanx mod's.

So without further ado getting back on topic


I am tired of explaning these facts over and over again.

*4 Spell snare is not only necessary but FANTSTIC in this current metagame

*Cunning wish is and has always been good for landstill

*Vendillion clique is AWESOME.

*You cannot run 8 manlands in landstill, its simply too many colorless sources.

*Elspeth(2 Main) is nuts, so is Jace(1 Main, in 4th brainstorm slot), as well as Ajani goldmane(2 Sideboard). These should be standards for all models.

Questions i'd like to be solved:

*How good is counterbalance against ANT in traditional landstill models?

*Is landstill WITHOUT vindicate or wish able to beat Zoo preboard? Whats the matchup analysis?

Last but not least!

*Is black "really" necessary if you run wish? Is red/Green any better?

These are the current questions on my mind and I really believe most people should be focusing on them, as they are really whats important currently.



Thanx, Citrus tends to defend me from time-time and I felt obliged to be wrong for his sake :), though you won't ever see me write that or hear it out of my mouth again, so savor it.

1. No. Counterbalance is great against ant if you can go turn 1 top, turn 2 balance. This deck cannot do that reliably and I therefore do not like it in the anti-combo board slot. I know it's not used that much here, but I'v found runed halo to always be the card I want against them. I bring in 3 halo and 4 blasts (-4 swords, -2 wrath, -1 vindicate) and it seems to be a strong package. If they can't target you with tendrils then they have to find their one piece of bounce or cast burning wish (blasts).

2. Not really. You can control them and slow the game way down but they topdeck so hard that you're just a sitting duck. They'll build up their hand over and over while dropping two or three creatures for you to handle while they burn your face. The only real way to win would be to pump out soldiers and eventually use elspeth's ultimate.

3. No. Extirpate is good but not always worth the extra duals. Green for grip would be quite strong as well, and you could play loam main. I only play black for vindicate now, and sometimes plague in the board but this happens less and less.

I agree with most of your points on landstill, but those vindillion clique slots are still widely up for debate. I've always found it to be weaker than counterspell as have others on this forum.

Jak
05-25-2009, 06:33 PM
I have a question. Is CA just not as needed? I keep seeing lists cutting FoF and going down to 3 Standstill which really seems weird considering this deck used to be based on CA. Is it because the format has become so threat light?

klaus
05-25-2009, 06:45 PM
Questions i'd like to be solved:

*How good is counterbalance against ANT in traditional landstill models?

It's good, but narrow: You won't really board it in against 95% of all non-combo.decs



*Is landstill WITHOUT vindicate or wish able to beat Zoo preboard? Whats the matchup analysis?

Why are you interested in answering that question? Are you looking into building a non-Wish, non-Vindicate version. If so we should be judging the alternatives for those 2-4 MD slots first, I think.



*Is black "really" necessary if you run wish? Is red/Green any better?

That's one of those questions that need to be answered by listing the most efficient LS cards of each color. I think it comes down to whether you can find a really good replacement for Plague - I don't know any, though.
Then again I'm one of those vindicaters...(happy with 4 atm) - I won't consider cutting black very soon.

Taishaku
05-25-2009, 09:08 PM
During the times I played Decree, I often found myself cycling that early Decree away, just to get rid of it (=> early game).

Yeah, that's like removing your Morphling from the game for your FoW just to get rid of it.


And I don't have the slightest clue what makes you think that EE is an early game card...

It's called pre-setting. It's a quasi-Chalice that really restricts the opponent's speed. Combined with Spell Snare, it's pretty beastly.


I'm seconding Fredmaster here: the odds that EE gets stifled successfully are much lower - afterall, you need to use only 2 mana (sacking it the turn after), if you're afraid of Stifle and want to keep counter mana open.

Okay... I think you're forgetting something rather important: Decree of Justice can be played as a sorcery to make Angels. Just making one Angel for 6 mana can be a serious threat. You don't always have to EoT Cycle (though it is preferable).



*4 Spell snare is not only necessary but FANTSTIC in this current metagame

*Cunning wish is and has always been good for landstill

*Vendillion clique is AWESOME.

*You cannot run 8 manlands in landstill, its simply too many colorless sources.

*Elspeth(2 Main) is nuts, so is Jace(1 Main, in 4th brainstorm slot), as well as Ajani goldmane(2 Sideboard). These should be standards for all models.

Agreed, Spell Snare rocks. I am hesitant to use 4 though.

Cunning Wish is good if your metagame is not full of aggro. Then its speed handicap can show.

Clique is a pretty interesting card. Great against combo and stops a Mongoose in a pinch.



Questions i'd like to be solved:

*How good is counterbalance against ANT in traditional landstill models?

*Is landstill WITHOUT vindicate or wish able to beat Zoo preboard? Whats the matchup analysis?

Last but not least!

*Is black "really" necessary if you run wish? Is red/Green any better?


I have never had the opportunity to play against ANT... =\

Zoo? You mean Vindicate as a way to remove Isochron Scepter? Why not stick to Snares (this matchup would call for 4 Snares) and EE? They have so many two-drops.

I don't think any splash is strictly necessary. But Extirpate is great when you do use black and Cunning Wish.

3duece
05-25-2009, 10:22 PM
Yeah, that's like removing your Morphling from the game for your FoW just to get rid of it.

This is retarded on a couple of levels.

1. If I found myself playing morphling in modern legacy I would pray to baby jesus for a way to remove it from my hand because it is terrible.

2. Early in the game if you have the mana up it can be useful to cycle decree just to hit that next land drop. I've even by chance cycled into a blue card to pitch to force, making two dudes in the process. Decree is a late game card, but it's safe to run two or even three for the exact reason of cycling for a dude or two and drawing a card.

Thank you for your time.

Shawn
05-25-2009, 11:13 PM
Originally Posted by klaus
During the times I played Decree, I often found myself cycling that early Decree away, just to get rid of it (=> early game).

Yeah, that's like removing your Morphling from the game for your FoW just to get rid of it.

This is retarded on a couple of levels.
1. If I found myself playing morphling in modern legacy I would pray to baby jesus for a way to remove it from my hand because it is terrible.
2. Early in the game if you have the mana up it can be useful to cycle decree just to hit that next land drop. I've even by chance cycled into a blue card to pitch to force, making two dudes in the process. Decree is a late game card, but it's safe to run two or even three for the exact reason of cycling for a dude or two and drawing a card.
Thank you for your time.

He's not saying we should play Morphling, he's saying cycling away Decree "just to get rid of it" is throwing away a win-condition. There are times where cycling it to dig for another land, spell, or to chump block are necessary, but cycling it just to draw a card isn't very good.

Taishaku
05-26-2009, 05:34 AM
This is retarded on a couple of levels.

1. If I found myself playing morphling in modern legacy I would pray to baby jesus for a way to remove it from my hand because it is terrible.

2. Early in the game if you have the mana up it can be useful to cycle decree just to hit that next land drop. I've even by chance cycled into a blue card to pitch to force, making two dudes in the process. Decree is a late game card, but it's safe to run two or even three for the exact reason of cycling for a dude or two and drawing a card.

Thank you for your time.

1. I was using the Morphling as an example of a card that is perhaps going to be important later on (in OTHER decks) and using it as FoW fodder. I am not actually saying we should stick Morphlings into Landstill decks. -_-"

2. Obviously dire actions are needed during dire times, such as to hit your fourth land to wipe the field of Goblins or to get that Brainstorm to use your FoW to stop a vital combo piece, but he didn't say that. He said he would do it JUST TO GET RID OF IT, meaning he is treating it as dead weight in his hand that should be unloaded immediately.

Perhaps it is not your experience in MtG that is the problem here, but your reading comprehension.


He's not saying we should play Morphling, he's saying cycling away Decree "just to get rid of it" is throwing away a win-condition. There are times where cycling it to dig for another land, spell, or to chump block are necessary, but cycling it just to draw a card isn't very good.

See? Shawn understood my comment. I am saying we should be trying to use cards as best we can at the best time and that klaus does not sound like he's doing that. I personally hold my Decrees until I can find a use for them, even if it's to make 1-3 tokens and dig for permission or removal, but surely I don't say: "Oh whew. Three mana, now I can cycle this stupid Decree in my hand."

NQN
05-26-2009, 10:50 AM
I feel like those RedGreen Decks are getting more and more incredible cards and it getīs harder and harder to fight them back. Countermagic isnīt as good as it was since Shusher and Hellspark are beeing maindecked and Removal canīt prevent beeing hit by some prices. In my opinion there has to be at least 5 Slots in the SB for that matchup. Iīve always been fine with 2 Ajani and 3-4 Kitchen Finks.

mossivo1986
05-26-2009, 11:08 AM
I feel like those RedGreen Decks are getting more and more incredible cards and it getīs harder and harder to fight them back. Countermagic isnīt as good as it was since Shusher and Hellspark are beeing maindecked and Removal canīt prevent beeing hit by some prices. In my opinion there has to be at least 5 Slots in the SB for that matchup. Iīve always been fine with 2 Ajani and 3-4 Kitchen Finks.

Finks seems illogical because it takes away slots from said ant matchup.

Path to exile plus wish for pulse seems good for the board.

Citrus-God
05-26-2009, 01:13 PM
I feel like those RedGreen Decks are getting more and more incredible cards and it getīs harder and harder to fight them back. Countermagic isnīt as good as it was since Shusher and Hellspark are beeing maindecked and Removal canīt prevent beeing hit by some prices. In my opinion there has to be at least 5 Slots in the SB for that matchup. Iīve always been fine with 2 Ajani and 3-4 Kitchen Finks.

Just run 2-3 Circle of Protection: Red and 2 Ajani Goldmane. CoP protects you from a lethal Price of Progress, whether Shusher is out or not. Ajani Goldmane and Elspeth just forces them to waste Burn on it while you sit behind CoP:R and develop your position, otherwise they will be overwhelmed and lose.

NQN
05-26-2009, 05:29 PM
I gave up the ANT matchup. Itīs not possible to win against it unless you waste like 4-6 Slots and even then, it will never become a good matchup. And since I live in germany, I NEVER ever have to face any combo other than 2GG->Wrath me or die.dec. Playing finks is like you started with said ~26-28 lifepoints since they have to remove it with f.e. 1 attack and 1 burnspell.
Even if everyone else hates them, I think Küchenhutzel is one of the best choices against red beatdown.

EDIT: CoP Red is fine as long as they donīt board in Grips (THat happens often since they think that Humility is good against them, donīt ask me why) and is only good against pure red beatdown. Finks can also be boarded against Merrows, goblins, mirror, loam(if you play cliques MD) and is at least a bad clock against ANT ;)

Citrus-God
05-26-2009, 09:41 PM
CoP Red is fine as long as they donīt board in Grips (THat happens often since they think that Humility is good against them, donīt ask me why) and is only good against pure red beatdown. Finks can also be boarded against Merrows, goblins, mirror, loam(if you play cliques MD) and is at least a bad clock against ANT ;)

True, but CoP: Red is good against Goblins as well. But if you want to make a super compromise, maintain a good game against Zoo and still have a versatile SB choice; I think BEB is the way to go. It can be boarded in against Goblins and Aggro Loam as well. If you play against TES or ANT w/ Red, BEB can be the card you board in to replace those WoGs so you can FoW without removing a relevant card, counter opposing Pyroblasts, and against TES, you can eat up Burning Wishes and Rite of Flames.

Taishaku
05-27-2009, 06:19 PM
I feel like those RedGreen Decks are getting more and more incredible cards and it getīs harder and harder to fight them back. Countermagic isnīt as good as it was since Shusher and Hellspark are beeing maindecked and Removal canīt prevent beeing hit by some prices.

Vexing Shusher is definitely... vexing. I don't fear Hellspark that much; if it's really destroying you, graveyard control can handle it. I'm sure most people run Relic of Progenitus, Tormod's Crypt, heck, Scrabbling Claws and Samurai of the Pale Curtain even work. For those that play black, Planar Void stops such silliness. But still, I doubt we need to go this far to handle Hellspark, as even Swords to Plowshares and Path to Exile get rid of it.


Finks seems illogical because it takes away slots from said ant matchup.

Path to exile plus wish for pulse seems good for the board.

I agree. I generally keep PtE and Pulse/Ajani in my SB.

Blue Elemental Blast also works. It's bread and butter Red-hate.


But if you want to make a super compromise, maintain a good game against Zoo and still have a versatile SB choice; I think BEB is the way to go.

Oh. Haha. Read my mind.

I typically don't fear Price of Progress though. But then again, I run 8 basics compared to the usual 3-4; it may just be personal preference or local metagame, but I feel Wasteland just slows me down since I've stopped maindecking Crucible of Worlds. Combined with 11 counterspells that can counter it, I don't think it's much more fearful than Browbeat or Shrapnel Blast.

Citrus-God
05-27-2009, 10:28 PM
I typically don't fear Price of Progress though. But then again, I run 8 basics compared to the usual 3-4; it may just be personal preference or local metagame, but I feel Wasteland just slows me down since I've stopped maindecking Crucible of Worlds. Combined with 11 counterspells that can counter it, I don't think it's much more fearful than Browbeat or Shrapnel Blast.

I used to run 6 Basic Lands in Landstill. But ever since I started running Plague, I've gone back down to 5 Basic Lands.

Crucible of Worlds is amazing when you have 3 Wastelands in the deck. Dust Bowl and CoW isn't very good considering you have to invest mana to destroy non-basic lands. Although Dust Bowl is good against a deck like Survival since you have the time to afford doing both Dust Bowl + replay a land, you tend to be more pressured against Merfolk. Heck, CoW against Merfolk is amazing. It kills Mutavaults so you can drop that Standstill. Although, I've been toying with running 6 Basics again and boarding in Akroma's Vengeance. Although a lot of players will say that Cursecatcher and Daze will just screw you over, I beg to differ. If you spend your eot casting Cunning Wish and FoFs, they're bound to counter them because it's a tempo play for them. Even if it involves casting two Daze effects, which in itself is card disadvantage for them and removes the fear of walking into being Force Spiked again. Then you just board sweepers or you wish for a Tsabo's Decree to gg the game.

Taishaku
05-29-2009, 03:50 AM
@Citrus-God
The thing is, the combo is rather situational. It won't work against one-color decks like Solidarity and Vial Goblins and it messes up my land consistency to have 8 colorless lands (4 Mishra's Factory, 3 Wasteland, 1 Academy Ruins; I tend to follow Konsultant's deck with green splash instead of black). Also, there aren't as many situations these days where infinitely-recurring Mishra's Factory is going to be helpful. That's why my Crucibles are in my SB.

I think it only works well with tutors, but then that devolves into some toolbox deck.

Then there's the fact that every other deck runs Krosan Grip now. Heck, even I run Krosan Grip. It shuts down Sensei's Divining Top.

But yeah, when push comes to shove, I took 2 maindeck Krosan Grips over 2 Path to Exile, Humility, or Crucible of Worlds. The decks that I have the most troubles with tend to be weak to Krosan Grip. Sometimes I replace those with Path to Exile to stop the turn one Goblin Lackey or Hypnotic Specter.

Citrus-God
05-29-2009, 09:46 AM
@Citrus-God
The thing is, the combo is rather situational. It won't work against one-color decks like Solidarity and Vial Goblins and it messes up my land consistency to have 8 colorless lands (4 Mishra's Factory, 3 Wasteland, 1 Academy Ruins; I tend to follow Konsultant's deck with green splash instead of black). Also, there aren't as many situations these days where infinitely-recurring Mishra's Factory is going to be helpful. That's why my Crucibles are in my SB.

Crucible of Worlds should be making your land drops, not doing a cutesy Wastelock. It just uses the cutesy Wastelock as a win condition or a way to destroy random shit like opposing Academy Ruins, Nantuko Monasteries, other Factories, Mutavaults and etc...

Crucible of Worlds does work against Vial Goblins. It restores your mana base and destroys their Rishadan Ports. They also run dual lands too, considering they're running Black and/or Green nowadays. Also, making Mishra's Factories into blockers is pretty sweet. CoW is good against Merfolk too for the exact same reasons, but instead of hitting dual lands with your Wastelands you're hitting Mutavaults instead.

Misplayer
05-29-2009, 09:52 AM
I piloted a UWb Vindicate list to a 3-1 finish at a local event the other night. All in all it was an awful metagame for Landstill. I based my list of Citrus’s most recent list, but lacking the wish targets and wanting to run Top I made the following changes: -3 C Wish, -2 FoF, -1 DoJ, -1 WoG, -1 Counterspell, +3 SDT, +3 Vindicate, +1 Spell Snare. I also cut a Plains for a Delta to improve Top’s effectiveness and to hit Black more reliably for Vindicate. SB included the 4th Vindicate, 3rd Wrath, 2 Path to Exile (completed my playset later that night with the credit I won), 2 Ajani, 2 Meddling Mage, 2/1 Crypt/Relic, 3 Humility, 1 Pithing Needle.

First round I had TES. Awesome. G1 – Kept a weak hand against combo because I didn’t know what he was playing. I had FoW, he Duressed and went off. G2 – He Chants, I Force, he goes Ad Nauseam with no mana floating and dies to poor flips. G3 – Turn 2 Meddling Mage. He goes for EtW the next turn via Burning Wish. I have Force, he mana burns for a ton. I escape with a round 1 victory.

Round 2 – Merfolk (with Dreadnought). Awesome. G1 - I win the roll. I open with Top, as long as he doesn’t play Vial I can go Factory – Standstill turn 2 and ride it to a win. He opens with Vial. He draws off 4 Standstills (literally) but I keep him off balance with EE as he can’t draw a Force or Daze. Eventually, I get too low on life and he has about 9 cards in his hand every turn. When I wrath into the 4th Standstill he finds Force and wins. G2 – Again he opens with Vial. He Vials in Cursecatcher and 2 Silvergill. I go for Wrath and he Echoing Truth’s his Silvergills. B2B resolves. I lose in short order.

Round 3 – RGw Zoo. Awesome. G1 – I hit all my land drops and get an E. Dragon plus 2 Factories. I go LD and have FoW for Fireblast. I swing for 9 twice and pass turn to him with both of us at 2. He has Plains/Taiga only so he swings with Lavamancer so he can cast Magma Jet. I swords my Dragon for the win. G2 – Too much burn. G3 – He’s slowing chipping down my life with burn. I have removal for his Goyfs. I get Ajani online. He chooses not to burn down Ajani with the hopes of scrying to find PoP with Fireblast in hand. It doesn’t happen. Ajani wins.

Round 4 – UGr Dreadstill G1 – Goyf + Factory beats me to 1. I have EE set to 2 for my next turn, then I rip Swords like a pro. He’s at 20. I Top into good stuff like Wasteland and Academy Ruins. Eventually I get Elspeth online, go indestructible, and have recurring EE. I win despite being down 19 life points. G2 – He beats with Factories while I look at a hand with 2 Wrath and 2 Humility. Time to change my boarding strategy. G3 – I’m stabilizing with Elspeth when time is called. My opponent scoops to me because I was 2-1 and he was 1-2. Very cool of him. We both think we would have won G3, and it probably would have been epic.

I felt like the maindeck was solid, despite some minor issues hitting double white early. Top is huge because of the insane card selection it provides. I think the Vindicate build is the way to go in a Counterbalance-defined meta. In a more wide-open meta I’d probably play the UWg list for a more stable mana base. Humility out of the board was so weak. I switched it up to look like: 1 Vindicate, 1 Wrath, 2/1 Crypt/Relic, 3 Path to Exile, 2 Ajani, 3 Meddling Mage, 2 Crucible of Worlds.

Thoughts and comments welcome.

mossivo1986
05-29-2009, 11:39 AM
I piloted a UWb Vindicate list to a 3-1 finish at a local event the other night. All in all it was an awful metagame for Landstill. I based my list of Citrus’s most recent list, but lacking the wish targets and wanting to run Top I made the following changes: -3 C Wish, -2 FoF, -1 DoJ, -1 WoG, -1 Counterspell, +3 SDT, +3 Vindicate, +1 Spell Snare. I also cut a Plains for a Delta to improve Top’s effectiveness and to hit Black more reliably for Vindicate. SB included the 4th Vindicate, 3rd Wrath, 2 Path to Exile (completed my playset later that night with the credit I won), 2 Ajani, 2 Meddling Mage, 2/1 Crypt/Relic, 3 Humility, 1 Pithing Needle.

Your numbers look very odd. Smooth that stuff out son.


First round I had TES. Awesome. G1 – Kept a weak hand against combo because I didn’t know what he was playing.
Understandable

I had FoW, he Duressed and went off.


G2 – He Chants, I Force, he goes Ad Nauseam with no mana floating and dies to poor flips.

Incredibly odd. If your not applying pressure then he has nothing to worry about. Thats a key mistake by your combo player.


G3 – Turn 2 Meddling Mage. Naming?


He goes for EtW the next turn via Burning Wish. I have Force, he mana burns for a ton. I escape with a round 1 victory.


He burns for a ton? Explain this more clearly.

You win because you played a bad Ant player is what this sums up to. Rarely does Ant boot a game, let alone boot two games. It's either a sign of a bad player, or a badly designed model; either case leads me to believe you got a safety in football terms, aka your opponent kicked himself in the nuts. Be happy it rarely happens.


Round 2 – Merfolk (with Dreadnought). Awesome. G1 - I win the roll. I open with Top, as long as he doesn’t play Vial I can go Factory – Standstill turn 2 and ride it to a win. He opens with Vial. He draws off 4 Standstills (literally) but I keep him off balance with EE as he can’t draw a Force or Daze. Eventually, I get too low on life and he has about 9 cards in his hand every turn. When I wrath into the 4th Standstill he finds Force and wins. G2 – Again he opens with Vial. He Vials in Cursecatcher and 2 Silvergill. I go for Wrath and he Echoing Truth’s his Silvergills. B2B resolves. I lose in short order.

Overall i'm suprised to see these lists around. Merfolk with naught is naught exceptional. haha bad Pun. Anyways the same basic plan applies here. side in 4PTE win game.


Round 3 – RGw Zoo. Awesome. G1 – I hit all my land drops and get an E. Dragon plus 2 Factories. I go LD and have FoW for Fireblast. I swing for 9 twice and pass turn to him with both of us at 2. He has Plains/Taiga only so he swings with Lavamancer so he can cast Magma Jet. I swords my Dragon for the win. G2 – Too much burn. G3 – He’s slowing chipping down my life with burn. I have removal for his Goyfs. I get Ajani online. He chooses not to burn down Ajani with the hopes of scrying to find PoP with Fireblast in hand. It doesn’t happen. Ajani wins.

Another match-up where your opponent kicks himself in the nuts. He should have killed Ajani with blast or weakened it. Knowing that your not running wish and your under 10 life in game 3 he should have played the long game. He still wins because you lack enough relevant life-gain.


Round 4 – UGr Dreadstill G1 – Goyf + Factory beats me to 1. I have EE set to 2 for my next turn, then I rip Swords like a pro. He’s at 20. I Top into good stuff like Wasteland and Academy Ruins. Eventually I get Elspeth online, go indestructible, and have recurring EE. I win despite being down 19 life points.

He wasn't running fire/ice or lightning bolt in u/g/r dreadstill?


G2 – He beats with Factories while I look at a hand with 2 Wrath and 2 Humility.
double wrath isn't as bad as double humility. Take note peeps.


Time to change my boarding strategy.


G3 – I’m stabilizing with Elspeth when time is called. My opponent scoops to me because I was 2-1 and he was 1-2. Very cool of him.

If you continue to produce tokens you win. if you fuck up and sac for indestructable or remove for indestructable when he has more then 2 cards in hand then you lose.


We both think we would have won G3, and it probably would have been epic.

Depends on your move with elspeth.


I felt like the maindeck was solid, despite some minor issues hitting double white early.
qua'?


Top is huge because of the insane card selection it provides.
Yes.


I think the Vindicate build is the way to go in a Counterbalance-defined meta.

You played maybe 1 counterbalance deck all day long and this is the summary of your tournament experience?


In a more wide-open meta I’d probably play the UWg list for a more stable mana base.

Black doesn't make a bit of difference in how well you can build a mana-base. It's what your deck adopts as it's win cons/ utility spells in order to play its own personalized game. In your case it's vindicate. You naturally have to splash more because you have to run black more in the maindeck to suit this off color splash. In other models say wish models you run a much safer manabase because there is no need to splash black for anything but EE, Extirpate.


Humility out of the board was so weak. I switched it up to look like: 1 Vindicate, 1 Wrath, 2/1 Crypt/Relic, 3 Path to Exile, 2 Ajani, 3 Meddling Mage, 2 Crucible of Worlds.

Humility in the maindeck is strongest because like citrus says and I completely agree. When opponents see SDT or Standstill they will unintentionally auto-side krosan grip in. In fact for proof I had one guy knowingly side in grip, which he said because I ran elspeth that I probobly ran solid enchantments to run alongside it to aid it into a removal "without seeing humility mind you." Point being they know, so the best way to go is do it preboard then side it out post.

FoolofaTook
05-29-2009, 11:57 AM
How about Runed Halo as a one-of in the builds that run at least one Enlightened Tutor? It works very well against ANT, protecting against Tendrils, works against Dreadstill early against a Dreadnought, works against Goyf Sligh in a bunch of different ways but mainly against Price of Progress and Tarmogoyf. It also can stop Cabal Therapy if that becomes a likely problem.

It just seems like such an incredibly versatile temporary solution for what ails a deck that will win if it lives through the first half dozen turns.

Edit:just realized you can't name a token, although if a token is named the same as a card you have protection from it. Go figure.

mossivo1986
05-29-2009, 12:10 PM
How about Runed Halo as a one-of in the builds that run at least one Enlightened Tutor? It works very well against ANT, protecting against Tendrils, works against Dreadstill early against a Dreadnought, works against Goyf Sligh in a bunch of different ways but mainly against Price of Progress and Tarmogoyf. It also can stop Cabal Therapy if that becomes a likely problem.

It just seems like such an incredibly versatile temporary solution for what ails a deck that will win if it lives through the first half dozen turns.

Edit:just realized you can't name a token, although if a token is named the same as a card you have protection from it. Go figure.

This is a very viable option and i've played it at times.

rockout
05-29-2009, 12:26 PM
How about Runed Halo as a one-of in the builds that run at least one Enlightened Tutor? It works very well against ANT, protecting against Tendrils, works against Dreadstill early against a Dreadnought, works against Goyf Sligh in a bunch of different ways but mainly against Price of Progress and Tarmogoyf. It also can stop Cabal Therapy if that becomes a likely problem.

It just seems like such an incredibly versatile temporary solution for what ails a deck that will win if it lives through the first half dozen turns.

Edit:just realized you can't name a token, although if a token is named the same as a card you have protection from it. Go figure.

You can name shapeshifter and be protected from a shapeshifter token hitting you. Seems pretty good in the current meta.

Misplayer
05-29-2009, 12:53 PM
First, thanks for the input, I appreciate it.

Your numbers look very odd. Smooth that stuff out son.

It depends on how you classify cards. I see Vindicate as a flex slot instead of pure removal. That leaves me with 9/10/9 draw/counter/removal. Technically the only pure card-advantage type draw spells that most Landstill lists run are FoF, Standstill and Jace. Brainstorm and Top both provide selection above all else. So there’s a lot of gray area in terms of numbers.


Incredibly odd. If your not applying pressure then he has nothing to worry about. Thats a key mistake by your combo player.
I had Factory and was tapped out of blue. When his Chant drew Force, I would have needed a second Force to stop him. I think most combo players would make the same play. I also failed to mention he had cracked his LED in response to Ad Nauseam for black. If he hit a single Lotus Petal or Chrome Mox he wins. He flipped about 20 cards and didn’t see either. Bad luck is bad luck.


Naming?

Tendrils of Agony. I had Force and EE, so I think this was the right call.


He burns for a ton? Explain this more clearly.

He had ramped up his mana to build storm and Empty the Warrens. When he cracked LED (in response to the Wish), he discarded Ad Nauseam, so I think he was undecided which route he wanted go. I think Ad Nauseam trying to find Red Blast for Mage and then combo out would have been the better play. I think he burned 7 total.


You win because you played a bad Ant player is what this sums up to. Rarely does Ant boot a game, let alone boot two games. It's either a sign of a bad player, or a badly designed model; either case leads me to believe you got a safety in football terms, aka your opponent kicked himself in the nuts. Be happy it rarely happens.

I’m not denying I was lucky in game 2, although I would not go so far as to classify him as a bad player. I think he’s HammafistRoob on these boards, but I could be mistaken. Anyway, this is not a matchup I plan on winning regularly.


Overall i'm suprised to see these lists around. Merfolk with naught is naught exceptional. haha bad Pun. Anyways the same basic plan applies here. side in 4PTE win game.

I disagree. Merfolk + Dreadnought is a winning game plan, and I don’t understand why more people don’t run that configuration. I mean, if I could make top 8 at a large Hadley event with it, then the deck must be good, right?


Another match-up where your opponent kicks himself in the nuts. He should have killed Ajani with blast or weakened it. Knowing that your not running wish and your under 10 life in game 3 he should have played the long game. He still wins because you lack enough relevant life-gain.

I agree with you here. I even told him after the match that he should have done that, which is why I was able to report on his logic for not doing it.


He wasn't running fire/ice or lightning bolt in u/g/r dreadstill?

I saw him flip a Fire/Ice in an earlier match, but I’m not sure if it was post-side. But this was one of the guys who created the deck (J.V.) so I’m not going to question his build.


double wrath isn't as bad as double humility. Take note peeps.

Agree.


If you continue to produce tokens you win. if you fuck up and sac for indestructable or remove for indestructable when he has more then 2 cards in hand then you lose.

I almost never go indestructible. I did in the previous game to perma-block Goyf. Trust me, I understand that making soldiers=win.


qua'?

A few times I was just waiting to draw white to play any combination of Humility, Wrath, Elspeth. When I say early I mean Landstill-early, which is like turns 5-6.


You played maybe 1 counterbalance deck all day long and this is the summary of your tournament experience?

Heh, yeah, I suppose that seems like a pretty weak conclusion. Obviously Spell Snare and EE are good too, but the more answers the better, especially considering how hard Counterbalance has boned me in the past while not running Vindicate.


Black doesn't make a bit of difference in how well you can build a mana-base. It's what your deck adopts as it's win cons/ utility spells in order to play its own personalized game. In your case it's vindicate. You naturally have to splash more because you have to run black more in the maindeck to suit this off color splash. In other models say wish models you run a much safer manabase because there is no need to splash black for anything but EE, Extirpate.

Agree. I was speaking from my situation. Maybe one day I’ll actually spend the $10 and get all the Wish targets to make a Wish build possible, but until then black splash = Vindicate for me, which means 2 or 3 black producing sources minimum. With a G splash for only EE and Grip I can go to 1-2 splash lands much easier.


Humility in the maindeck is strongest because like citrus says and I completely agree. When opponents see SDT or Standstill they will unintentionally auto-side krosan grip in. In fact for proof I had one guy knowingly side in grip, which he said because I ran elspeth that I probobly ran solid enchantments to run alongside it to aid it into a removal "without seeing humility mind you." Point being they know, so the best way to go is do it preboard then side it out post.
Yeah, I don’t know what I was thinking. That’s why I changed it up.

I hope I was ably to provide a little more clarity.

On Runed Halo: I, too, have run it in E. Tutor builds, but I've found E. Tutor to often be too cute, and I have a hard time recalling a time when it was actually game-breaking. It's like a psuedo-C Wish but not as good because of the maindeck slots it requires, but it sure does provide a lot of options, especially post-board.

FoolofaTook
05-29-2009, 01:45 PM
On Runed Halo: I, too, have run it in E. Tutor builds, but I've found E. Tutor to often be too cute, and I have a hard time recalling a time when it was actually game-breaking. It's like a psuedo-C Wish but not as good because of the maindeck slots it requires, but it sure does provide a lot of options, especially post-board.

It would seem that if you are running a few silver bullets and a back-breaking card or two in your build that Enlightened Tutor might become more than just a cute option. It has card disadvantage built in, especially if you are not playing Counterbalance, however the ability to pull up a bomb shouldn't be taken lightly.

After boarding it obviously becomes more valuable because then you know what plays well against the opponent and you also likely have an option in the sideboard that you want to get to as quickly as possible.

I kind of wonder about the relationship between Standstill, which everybody sees as a good to great inclusion in the deck, and Enlightened Tutor which is somewhat controversial. Standstill is a bit more situational and can sit dead in your hand in tightly contested turns however it provides card advantage when you can squeeze it in. Enlightened Tutor will almost never sit dead in your hand once you know what the opponent is trying to do and will almost always provide options in tightly contested turns and yet it is card disadvantage.

The question is how important is board position versus card advantage? And how do you calculate the value of a card that provides card advantage in favorable situations versus a card that assists in creating strong board position in middling to unfavorable positions?

Obviously Enlightened Tutor is not creating the strong board position it's just assisting in getting you there, so you can't look at it as a dominant card in it's own right.

Misplayer
05-29-2009, 02:27 PM
I agree with your logic as it's what I've used in the past when creating some of my Landstill builds. I usually ran 1 E Tutor with 1 Crucible and 1 Humility, plus the ability to bring up EE, Standstill, Top and a plethora of SB options including Counterbalance, Shackles, Propaganda, Runed Halo, CoP: Red/Green, Pithing Needle, etc.

I also agree with your assessment of Standstill as up for debate, and in the past I've suggested moving towards a Elspeth/E Tutor based UWx control model. This does not preclude Standstill as a viable card for the deck type, it just is less focused on it. I'm more than willing to explore/discuss this potential archetype, be it in this thread or a separate one. My 2 cents.

rockout
05-29-2009, 02:36 PM
I agree with your logic as it's what I've used in the past when creating some of my Landstill builds. I usually ran 1 E Tutor with 1 Crucible and 1 Humility, plus the ability to bring up EE, Standstill, Top and a plethora of SB options including Counterbalance, Shackles, Propaganda, Runed Halo, CoP: Red/Green, Pithing Needle, etc.

I also agree with your assessment of Standstill as up for debate, and in the past I've suggested moving towards a Elspeth/E Tutor based UWx control model. This does not preclude Standstill as a viable card for the deck type, it just is less focused on it. I'm more than willing to explore/discuss this potential archetype, be it in this thread or a separate one. My 2 cents.

PM me your ideas. I'm interested in discussing it.

Taishaku
05-31-2009, 05:19 AM
@Citrus-God
I typically make my land drops even without CoW. Besides, losing 1 life per fetchland adds up over time. =\

Usually they're running green for the Krosan Grip to deal with my CoW; I mean, I've seen a single Quicksand used with devastating effect against Merfolk and Goblins. xD

Yeah, it is true that Mutavaults are common nowadays, given their tribal-friendliness. Still, I feel CoW is an awkward fit into my playstyle, and Wasteland hurts my opening hand consistency.

Citrus-God
05-31-2009, 05:32 AM
@Citrus-God
I typically make my land drops even without CoW. Besides, losing 1 life per fetchland adds up over time. =\

I tend to make consistent land drops until things like Ports and other opposing Wastelands start trying to meddle with my mana base. Sometimes I keep CoW in my hand so that when I face an FoF pile of spells over lands, I just take spells and proceed to cast CoW on my main phase to replay those lands.

CoW also makes FoF piles very interesting and psychological post board.


Usually they're running green for the Krosan Grip to deal with my CoW; I mean, I've seen a single Quicksand used with devastating effect against Merfolk and Goblins. xD

Use Academy Ruins to get it back. Even if you don't draw into it, at least CoW net you a land.


Yeah, it is true that Mutavaults are common nowadays, given their tribal-friendliness. Still, I feel CoW is an awkward fit into my playstyle, and Wasteland hurts my opening hand consistency.

Wasteland can hurt your opening hand consistency, but opposing Mutavaults can somewhat harm your opening hand consistency as well if you arent allowed to drop Standstill. The best way to solve this problem is definitely run more lands.

konsultant
05-31-2009, 07:56 PM
I took 4th in the 132 person Black Lotus event yesterday with this list. My only losses were to Merfolk once in the swiss and then another Merfolk deck in top 4. I did beat the Merfolk player that beat me in the swiss in the top 8.

4x STP
3x WOG
3x DOJ
2x Elspeth
1x Eternal Dragon

3x Vindicate

2x EE
2x Nev Disk

4x Brainstorm
3x Standstill
3x FOF
3x Counter
4x FOW

4x Tundra
3x Strand
3x Delta
1x Sea
1x Scrubland
2x Plains
2x Island
1x Swamp
2x Waste
1x Ruins
1x Tolaria West
3x Factory

SB
3x Spellsnare
3x Negate
2x Chant
4x Plague
2x Humility
1x Lilliana [random throw in at last minute]

Ectoplasm
05-31-2009, 08:08 PM
Finally some results instead of theorycrafting.
Been considering Nev's disk as well, it looks like P deed without the commitment to green, how did it serve you?

And grats on the finish.

rockout
05-31-2009, 08:19 PM
@Konsultant: Congrats on the finish.

NQN
06-01-2009, 04:42 AM
Congratz from me as well, but I can not understand how you can actually beat Loam or Tempo decks with your lists. But I think I just have to accept the fact that Geoff wins no matter how clunky his list is.

Taishaku
06-01-2009, 06:18 AM
@Konsultant
Congratulations on your successful piloting.

But I'm with NQN here. How did you get so far with a deck that, quite frankly, looks rather slow on paper? 3 Fact or Fiction and 2 Nevinyrral's Disk do not inspire confidence in aggro matchups and with only sorcery-speed Vindicate and 4 rather slow mass removal artifacts, how did you stop a deck like Countertop (assuming you had a plan for if you do indeed meet this deck)?

rsaunder
06-01-2009, 01:07 PM
Nice finish! Just out of curiosity, did you have any troubles running FOW and only 17 blue spells? The count seems a little light. And what were your thoughts on running 0 spell snare? They seem like the sort of thing that would have helped against merfolk. One more: 3 decree and 2 els? How'd that heavy finisher base work for you?

Shawn
06-01-2009, 01:21 PM
Is that list 61 cards, Geoff? How were the Disks? I have a list in my "test this" pile that uses them but it's quite different (more like Jaime Cano's/Pablo David Diaz Diaz's four color build.

What matches do you bring in the Orim's Chants? (besides combo, obviously)

gustha
06-01-2009, 01:49 PM
To sum up, konsultant, could you please make a little report and spare with the people of landstill thread some of your choices which, with all the respect we owe to you, seem quite odd if not illogical?:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

BTW, congrats!

rockout
06-01-2009, 07:53 PM
I went to the same tournament as konsultant and played the most god awful list ever. I might as well gone there with no side board because my side board didn't matter. Anyone I gave my list too needs to just throw it into the trash bin and start completely over.

Roud 1: Nightmare 2-0 4c Thresh
Round 2: Ichorid 0-2
Round 3: RB Demigod 0-2 Both games he ripped a demigod when I was 8 and him at 3 in the first and 1 in the second with lethal next turn.
Round 4: UB ANT 1-2
Round 5: Opponent didn't show up Free Win 2-0
Round 6: Opponent didn't show up Free Win 2-0
Round 7: Enchatress 2-1 I punted the shit out of game 1.
Round 8: Drop being in 53 place with way too many 15 pointers to make top 25.

konsultant
06-01-2009, 09:55 PM
what were your thoughts on running 0 spell snare?



SB
3x Spellsnare


I beleive that right there should sum up alot of the questions posed to me about the speed of the deck.

While I am happily a founding member of team left field I assure everyone that none of my choices are random, even the last minute Lilliana over the Crucible that had been in that slot was well thought out. I marked it as random simply because I hadn't tested it but I have played Lilliana numerous times in legacy.

Unlike my usual builds this build does rely on side boarding in most match up's to get the winning percentage's as high as I like them yet I won nearly every round 2-0. It is far from clunky it just requires knowing the correct side board strategy for every match up. With incorrect boarding this build will land you squarly in the losers bracket.

Yes it is 61 cards, Tolaria west is the 61rst card, sometimes it is great and sometimes it gets transmuted like a fetch land. For those adamant about playing 60 cards cut it.

Chant is soley for Storm combo and Cascade combo.

Despite my only losses being to Merfolk I have tested extensively against it and just ran into my bad luck for the day against a tough match up. In the swiss I was on the play and opened a one lander and threw it back and got another one lander, lost without ever making my second land drop. Blew him out game 2 with Plague and lost a tight game 3. In top 4 game one I was once again on the play and had to mull a one lander and kept a decent but not spectacular 6. He had a solid hand and beat me with a turn one vial and turn 2 standstill. Game 2 I played STP turn one, Plague turn 3, Humility turn 4, Disk turn 5 and died turn 6. He had nothing left in hand but had everything he needed at the right time, I don't think it mattered what I had he was winning that game and they have the potential to do that whitch makes them a difficult match up. Currently I am working on some alternative strategies to make it a better match but i'm not certain it is worth it. I still beat merfolk in top 8 2-0 being on the play game one and mulling to 5.

Citrus-God
06-01-2009, 10:30 PM
Many people are questioning why you're running 3 DoJs and 3 FoFs in the maindeck, as many still consider those cards to be "clunky." What are your thoughts on DoJs and FoFs?

Edit. You also seem to be running 2 Elspeths in the maindeck. What are your opinions on Elspeth now?

konsultant
06-01-2009, 10:43 PM
Many people are questioning why you're running 3 DoJs and 3 FoFs in the maindeck, as many still consider those cards to be "clunky." What are your thoughts on DoJs and FoFs?

Edit. You also seem to be running 2 Elspeths in the maindeck. What are your opinions on Elspeth now?

I don't consider either to be clunky actually. This is landstill it is a late game deck. Don't be swayed by the cute little tempo thresh lists, whitch this list beats the piss out of by the way, the deck needs a late game. FoF pitch's to force early and DOJ cycle's into another card turn 3. I can't stress enough how important side boarding is with this build. I've been building this deck for months testing against all of tier one and tier two decks. Merfolk is annoying, Ichorid is winnable but not what you want to see. The remainder of legacy should be a win without bad luck and without making play mistakes. I can't adequetly explain my years of playing Landstill into a small post. That is the list I played, those were my results. I stand behind the list in the current meta. Humility may be changed or may stay but other than that the list is solid. If the concensus is the build is clunky everyone is entitled to thier opinions, play your own builds. I am not here trying to sell my list. It is easier for me if nobody plays the list than I don't have to face opponents I have never met before that have been testing against my list, whitch happens to me all to frequently.

Answer to Edit: Elspeth is the same as it was before, worse than Decree but a good card for Landstill. It pairs good with both Disk and Humility.

ultimoman
06-02-2009, 01:42 AM
Very good konsultant!

I also was considering using the Disk as well but part of me feels it may be too slow, thoughts?

Tinefol
06-02-2009, 04:43 AM
Played the following list in 28people tourney, finished with top2 split:

// Lands
4 [R] Tundra
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
3 [ALA] Island (1)
2 [RAV] Plains (4)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [U] Underground Sea
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [R] Scrubland
1 [MM] Dust Bowl

// Creatures & Walkers
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon
1 [LRW] Jace Beleren
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [TE] Counterspell
4 [R] Swordss to Plowshares
2 [TE] Humility
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [CFX] Path to Exile
1 [ARE] Enlightened Tutor
1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top

Round1 - White Weenie. I recover after Cataclysm and proceed to win through Jace. We didn't even start the second game
Round 2 - Faerie Stompy. In first game he loses gas quickly, and scoops after Humility + Elspeth. In the second, we both mull to 5, he gets mana flooded, I'm a bit color screwed, but I get my lands first, and Humility + Elspeth once again seal the deal.
Round 3 - 4c Counter-top. Long first game where I scoop after getting my EDragon STPed and CB/TOP locked.
He gets CB/TOP in the second game two, but as he's on 3 lands, 2 of which are duals, I just Dust Bowl them and beat with 2 factories. Didn't start third.
Round 4 - Team America. No aggressive start from TA, and after a long game I just beat with Elspeth with Humility on board.
In the second game my opponent extirpates FoW, STP and is able to get some beats through. Then he PerDeeds my Humility and is able to swing with Tombstalker for the win. Once again, didn't start the third.
Round 5 - RGBSA. He leads with thoughtseize and goes for turn2 Survival, to which I respond with Standstill, he drops a Goyf, I get Academy Ruins and Explosives off it, and then just go recursive, drop Humility and ride with Elspeth 4tw.
In the second game he's mana screwed, so I just destroy his both duals with Dust Bowl, Disenchant Vial and he scoops it up.
Top8 - BR Aggro. Two long games where he didn't gave up after Humility and I just couldn't get Elspeth for a while.
Top4 - Progenitus Survival. Game 1 he scoops after I drop Elspeth with Humility, in the second, I just went off with Explosives recursion, many counters and Elspeth.
Top2 - ID.

This was the first time I've played 2color (really, I didn't side a single black card this day), and sometimes it was tough without source of mass removal. I might add 1-2 Wrath of God, and I'm considering Disk (don't like it though) or The Abyss. 1 Decree might also be good, since oftentimes I wished it was there.

gustha
06-02-2009, 05:43 AM
I'm re-considering enlightened tutor a lot in these days... it just not saves your life when you want it, if it happens in early it fetches some removals, while if it happens in late we might be already in control by that time (and you wnat it when you wnat it, not before or after, so it is a better target for cwish than a maindecable card, with all the synergies I admit and defend with cards like jace and top). The question that it gives sense to the singleton crucible, I'm starting to see that it's not a strong objection. Crucible is good by its own, just a copy is fine if you don't screw, and with the deck manipulation/draw engine provided by top/jace/bstorm/sstill ever a singleton copy makes the difference. It seems in your list is pretty subpowered, just beacase you have already solid removal (EE's), solid draws (sstill, maybe not top), solid board control (2 humility) to tutor for. Maybe it's better to add a second top to manage better you deck manipulation, and leave a copy of etutor in the sb, or just add a disk (you know, I'm fond of it, and has great synergy with elspeth) to streghten your board control (and have a way out of pithing needle on EE, which block all of you mass removal since you don't have wrath; also, i'd play -1 path +1 wrath, how do you feel without a second mass removal option?). What are your feelings about it?
EDIT: sorry, next time I'll read the report from the end to the beginning! ^^
For reference, here's what I'm playing atm. Need some work though.

//Lands: 23
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Underground Sea
1 Academy Ruins
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Dust Bowl
3 Island
3 Plains
1 Swamp

//Walkers: 4
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Jace Beleren

//Permission: 10
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell

//Removal: 11
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Vindicate
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
1 Wrath of God

//Draw: 9 (+ jace)
4 Brainstorm
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Standstill

//Stuff:
1 Humility
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Decree of Justice

Sideboard: (under construction)
3 Meddling Mage
3 Extirpate
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Ajani Goldmane
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Engineered Plague

Maybe a scheme like this is more suited with the secondo tutor MD, which I left out for the reasons above. Needs really some work, especially the 3rd plague may be a moat/2nd humility/2nd relic, dunno.

Tinefol
06-02-2009, 06:53 AM
I don't like a second top. I generally don't consider it that good. If it's there okay, if it isn't -whatever, this decks plays fine without it. I just don't like getting it in multiples, especially if it gets stuck. What I'm aiming for is to never have the deadweight cards in the early game. In a fast creature environment you just can't afford it.
True so, Crucible wasn't much of a use, although it was handy in two games I've played. I don't like for the very same reason I don't like the second top: oftentimes its a dead weight if you draw it.
Enlightened tutor on other hand isn't. Early game it can fetch Explosives or Standstill, later - Humility (or second Humility, if they Grip the first), or that Crucible if necessary. Or even Top (been there, done that), if you are low on cards and need some good topdecks. I don't like disk, because it kills your own Humility and overly is very slow. I'd rather play The Abyss there. Also would like to get a Fact or 2 in there, but it seems there're not enough slots in the deck :)

gustha
06-02-2009, 08:00 AM
I agree with all you're saying, except against the 2nd top (I played 3, lowered the count for the blue cards, but I'll keep playing 3 if I had the room). That said, having 3 EE's and many spot removals, the fact disk costs 4 is more an assurance than a weight (evades counterbalance, is nuts against enchantress -if they don't find the oring-, etc etc), plus it's unaffected by stifle, plus it's indestructible with elspeth ultimate (happen very often, for me at least in 40% of the games). It's true that it breaks all of your stuff like humility (which for instance, you have a 2nd copy), but it's true the same that he works the same role as humility (a 4cc board keeper). in fact you do not have to rip it if you don't need it, you can just sit behind disk preventing the opponent to not play or to play much carefully, not overextend, while elspeth tokens chumblock and pumps her and the few threats can be handled by spot removals. When elspeth goes up to 8/9, you have an indestructible reset tool on the table. You don't need to play it when you have humility, like you don't have to play humility if disk is active on the table (it's not rare the case i cast humility to take a fow or a grip in stead of disk): you just don't need to because they work the same role, keeping the table and slowering your opponent. The difference is that, when indestrubtible, creatures under humility can still attack, disk is automatically gg agains every aggro non-packing burn spells. However, if you're under humility and decide to break disk before elspeth ultimate, it may mean that you'd have lost without such desperate move, and so welcome disk that saves our lives at the mere cost of the copy ofan enchantment which you possess maindeck in 2 copies! I suggest to give him a chance, at least ^^

Tinefol
06-02-2009, 08:30 AM
Weird enough, I've never thought about Disk/Elspeth Ultimate interaction. In fact I have never used the ultimate, it seemed so pointless. Most of the time though, If you get into Elspeth ultimate range, chances you've dealt at least 12-16 damage with it, which is probably a win already.

Anyway, I like the idea! By the way, what do you think of The Abyss?

gustha
06-02-2009, 08:48 AM
I tend to play elspeth very slowly, just to pull out tokens to chumpblock...i'm really afraid of the possibile 8 swords to plowshares hanging around in legacy, and landstill is a deck that punishes every single error or overextension, so I play carefully in defense even when the board is clear, so reaching the ultimate is not so strange for my playstyle. The ultimate is also good against all those decks like black based (if you survive long enough and stop their vindicate on her, and avoid wastes and sinkholes, and stp on mishra and...well, you get the picture...) and obviously against aggroloam, making crucible almost a way to recover the lands you put in graveyard. But from now on, your lands cannot be wasted, your creatures cannot be affected by devastating dreams, and so on... Also, making soldier tokens indestructible is like building a titanium wall off little 1/1 creatures, and seeing your frustrating oppo trying to pass through and indestructible little soldier with it's enormous non tramplig creature (from tarmo to coatl, to anything that responds to such description) is quite interesting. Also, the effects last till the end of game and applies to everything that comes into play from the resolution of the ultimate till the end of the game so...well...having non-grippable humilities is not so bad I think... No, to sum up the ultimate is not just pointless...:laugh:
@the abyss: i admit i haven't test it. My thought are mixed. What are the main faults of humility? Doesn't destroy creature (so not removal nor elspeth nor mishra = still gg for the opponent); doesn't block attacks (same picture). I think that all those desideres are satisfied by a triplet of cards: moat, humility, disk. Every one of them is a 4cc bomb. If I were you, and if I had room, I'd go for a composite solution of these 3: with ichorid i'd rathere have moat than humility, with black based i'd rather have humility, against merfolks, moat buys a lot more of time than humility, agaist gobbos, both would work if we save a stp for the eventual tinkerer just to save crucible and/or disk. The abyss does what humility does not: destroys a creature every turn. This can be a double-edged weapon in my opinion: the player who is forced to play with less creatures is also forced to overextend. The question is: without any sort of mass removal besides EE, and no way to sweep an eventual pithing needle on your lonely mass removal, can you stand to an overextension? On the paper, the abyss seems a great card. But on the play, looking your list, I'd rather have disk and/or moat in that room.

Ectoplasm
06-02-2009, 09:33 AM
What matchups is Liliana good in?
She seems solid against ANT/TES, racking up CA while your opponent tries to find an answer to MMage/other hate but apart from that I'm in the dark.

Aus-Rotten
06-02-2009, 10:59 AM
Making control discard a card every turn seems pretty good.

Holo_rip
06-02-2009, 11:18 AM
What matchups is Liliana good in?
She seems solid against ANT/TES, racking up CA while your opponent tries to find an answer to MMage/other hate but apart from that I'm in the dark.
If you can manage to land it against ANT/TES, then you should have already win no ?

Ectoplasm
06-02-2009, 11:29 AM
If you can manage to land it against ANT/TES, then you should have already win no ?

In my experience ant/tes games tend to drag out when faced with cards like MM, chant, canonist etc, I was just guessing.

Edit: I guess it breaks the landstill mirror and countertop attrition wars in a nice way.

Holo_rip
06-02-2009, 11:35 AM
@ectoplasm

Didn't want to be rude, sorry.

I haven't played a lot the matchup landstill VS ANT/TES, so i might be wrong. The recurring discard ability can be a pain for sure against combo.

The point is, if they have wait so long to go off, i don't think that one card that THEY choose will be revelant enought to go off, but once again, i might be totaly wrong.

Ectoplasm
06-02-2009, 11:50 AM
@ectoplasm

Didn't want to be rude, sorry.

I haven't played a lot the matchup landstill VS ANT/TES, so i might be wrong. The recurring discard ability can be a pain for sure against combo.

The point is, if they have wait so long to go off, i don't think that one card that THEY choose will be revelant enought to go off, but once again, i might be totaly wrong.

Don't worry man I'm talking bollocks anyway, I just didn't expect to see Liliana anywhere.

mossivo1986
06-02-2009, 12:30 PM
who did?

rockout
06-02-2009, 01:15 PM
who did?

I did. I see it in the mirror match from time to time.

Ectoplasm
06-02-2009, 01:16 PM
How playable is she with 1 sea/scrubland and a swamp?

Taishaku
06-03-2009, 05:36 AM
Many people are questioning why you're running 3 DoJs and 3 FoFs in the maindeck, as many still consider those cards to be "clunky." What are your thoughts on DoJs and FoFs?

Edit. You also seem to be running 2 Elspeths in the maindeck. What are your opinions on Elspeth now?

I don't really find 3 DoJs all that strange. More often than not, they're useful to make a token or two for blocking or pressuring a control deck. And if I really don't want one, I can cycle it on turn three.

3 FoF used to be "normal." Most people run 2 now though, such as myself.

Elspeth is pretty good... but I'm always awkward around Planeswalkers. I guess I'm old-fashioned. Heck, I'm pretty awkward around all sorcery-speed cards in general, too much Draw-Go; I usually just think of Planeswalkers as killable enchantments with sorcery speed abilities anyway. I really think I need to get with the times though; once you get a Planeswalker down, they tend to be very difficult to remove. =(

On a sidenote: Elspeth, Knight Errant vs. Ajani Goldmane. Which do you prefer?


How playable is she with 1 sea/scrubland and a swamp?

In Legacy, I doubt your splashlands will stick around too long to cast too many two-of-a-color sorcery speed spells. So if you only got two of those lands, better make them count. I personally tend to make it a policy not to depend on sorcery-speed splash cards though.

Holo_rip
06-03-2009, 06:43 AM
I like both elspeth and ajani, but the fact that elspeth protect itself make her better. Though, you could run both in the MD i think, because you'll be able to abuse ajani second ability more easily than most deck (it is even more true if you run humility). EOT cycle decree for X toekn then drop ajani attack with X 2/2 vigilance token is really great.
Moreover, ajani first ability is great again burn (a bad matchup i think), while the third ability can push you over the top in the control miror.

All in all, not enought space in the MD, thus elspeth MD and ajani SB is usually what we do.

Ectoplasm
06-03-2009, 12:09 PM
Elspeth is a killcon and boardcontrol in one, effectively telling your opponent to drop more creatures so you can axe him with a WoG.

mossivo1986
06-03-2009, 01:25 PM
Ectoplasm

How playable is she with 1 sea/scrubland and a swamp?

Yes the vindicate models tend to play this with a 3-3 split of the delta and strands.

Taishaku


I usually just think of Planeswalkers as killable enchantments with sorcery speed abilities anyway. I really think I need to get with the times though; once you get a Planeswalker down, they tend to be very difficult to remove. =(

This seems like an oxymoron to me.
They arn't difficult to kill, yet they are difficult to kill?

Plainswalkers proved themselves in the Legacy format along time ago. What you see as far as the number of plainswalkers is a standard 2X Elspeth Maindeck, 2X Ajani Goldmain in the sideboard. Ajani is placed in the Sideboard because he doesn't protect himself and he's selectively awesome.

Ectoplasm
06-03-2009, 02:06 PM
Yes the vindicate models tend to play this with a 3-3 split of the delta and strands.

I get that, that's what I run as well. That brings us to 3 delta's, a scrubland, a sea and a swamp of which we'll need to draw 2. Which brings me to wondering how playable she is, since we'll need to be (on average) 20 cards deep into our library before we see the lands we need, granted we'd spend our deltas on black sources.

Then again it doesn't seem like much of a problem to play for 13 turns in the mirror or vs countertop decks. I just hoped for some discussion since I like the idea of running more cool cards like planeswalkers.

mossivo1986
06-03-2009, 05:25 PM
I get that, that's what I run as well. That brings us to 3 delta's, a scrubland, a sea and a swamp of which we'll need to draw 2. Which brings me to wondering how playable she is, since we'll need to be (on average) 20 cards deep into our library before we see the lands we need, granted we'd spend our deltas on black sources.

Then again it doesn't seem like much of a problem to play for 13 turns in the mirror or vs countertop decks. I just hoped for some discussion since I like the idea of running more cool cards like planeswalkers.

Haha I missed the she part in my last post. I thought the question was regarded as to how playable is the landbase. My answer then follows.

I do not agree with Lilliana. I think she's mediocre at best for this deck to be quite honest. Sure the abilities are powerfull, but your better off just running a jace for the cc. I do not think building a heavier black splash is in our "landstill archtypes" best interest at the current stage. I think if the format starts leaning towards even more basic lands then before and wasteland/stifle/daze sees less play "which is not going to happen nomatter how much i'd like it" then I think it could be possible to run a heavier black splash only then.

But for now, just stick with your traditional u/w control package with a light splash for removal or grave hate in black.

Taishaku
06-03-2009, 09:50 PM
@Mossivo1986
"This seems like an oxymoron to me.
They arn't difficult to kill, yet they are difficult to kill?"

Killable as in you can kill them like a creature or player. Difficult to remove as in they're probably going to be defended.

As far as splashing goes, I only keep a bit of green to run Krosan Grip and to destroy 3cc permanents with Engineered Explosives. But the problem here ties into the aforementioned Planeswalkers. Without black, I don't have access to Engineered Plague or Vindicate. Thus, I don't have too many options to deal with Elspeth, Knight Errant. Oblivion Ring? Pithin Needle? Humility? They're pretty vulnerable to removal themselves. I have considered Vendillion Clique, which can kill her in two attacks (and what about Archon of Justice?). Then there's Nevinyrral's Disk, but that's slow. Sometimes, it seems that my only solution is to drop my Eternal Dragons and play Elspeth, Knight Errant myself (That or stock up on Flame Javelins -_-").

Then there's that random idea I had before of replacing my 2 Eternal Dragons with Mystic Enforcers. (Yeah, I was around in the days of Enforcer Control. xD)

ultimoman
06-04-2009, 04:46 PM
It seems that more and more lists are getting away from using E. Dragon. I tested it and it was good for getting a land to my hand obviously but other than that, it didn't do well for me. With Swords and Paths around, you can't rely on it going to the graveyard and even then its slow to bring back and use.

On another note, how many Tops are the recommended amount in most Landstill builds? I've seen 1-3 but nobody seems to be able to agree on a general amount, and its not easy to find room for another non-blue card.

I've seen Dust Bowl being used quite often as well but I'm just not sold on it yet. In builds with Crucible, I believe Wasteland is the superior option due to the cost (fo the ability) being much cheaper than Dust Bowl.

Ectoplasm
06-04-2009, 05:01 PM
With Swords and Paths around, you can't rely on it going to the graveyard and even then its slow to bring back and use.

This isn't how you use E dragon.
(made-up percentages incoming)

80% of the time it just counts as a plains/scrubland.
15% of the time it's a deck-thinning engine, recurring multiple times under a standstill, getting all the irrelevant lands out of your deck, making you the king of topdecking
5% of the time it comes back as an additional beater.

The true purpose of E dragon is really just to be a nuisance while standstill is down :)

Citrus-God
06-04-2009, 06:00 PM
This isn't how you use E dragon.
(made-up percentages incoming)

80% of the time it just counts as a plains/scrubland.
15% of the time it's a deck-thinning engine, recurring multiple times under a standstill, getting all the irrelevant lands out of your deck, making you the king of topdecking
5% of the time it comes back as an additional beater.

The true purpose of E dragon is really just to be a nuisance while standstill is down :)

I definitely recur EDragon as a beater way more often than I recur it as a deck-thinning mana engine. Especially post board when players board Swords to Plowshares out against me.

Although since the addition of Elspeth, I haven't been recurring Dragon as often as I used to.

DragoFireheart
06-05-2009, 04:17 PM
Little off topic, but why are there two landstill threads?

Does the additional colors really alter the gameplay of the deck that greatly?

Ectoplasm
06-05-2009, 04:24 PM
Little off topic, but why are there two landstill threads?

Does the additional colors really alter the gameplay of the deck that greatly?

The difference is huge. Just look through some decklists in both threads :)

mossivo1986
06-05-2009, 04:42 PM
Little off topic, but why are there two landstill threads?

Does the additional colors really alter the gameplay of the deck that greatly?

Yes it makes a HUGE difference in gameplay. What it comes down to is the following:

-3c plays a much safer/smoother landbase then four color models.
-4 color offers a variety of different answers and better utility cards.
-Also 4color has in incredibly difficult time playing against wasteland/stifle.

I can't honeslty imagine why the 4 color model is still in the DTB section currently. To me it's worse then playing dreadstill or even merfolk.

Jak
06-05-2009, 06:30 PM
The other Landstill isn't just about the 4c lists. It also contains Ubg lists that aren't horrible.

mossivo1986
06-05-2009, 07:07 PM
The other Landstill isn't just about the 4c lists. It also contains Ubg lists that aren't horrible.

They are still under wraps then because that thread hasn't been consistently posted in since back when I used to troll it, and even then it was tough to get any productivity out of the thread.

DragoFireheart
06-05-2009, 07:19 PM
They are still under wraps then because that thread hasn't been consistently posted in since back when I used to troll it, and even then it was tough to get any productivity out of the thread.

Why hasn't the other Landstill thread gotten a lot of posts?

gustha
06-05-2009, 07:22 PM
Some update and questions:

Disk just destroys itself correct?

-So elspeth's final means infinate removal as well as indestructable soldiers. I think this is what geoff was mentioning to me over text but im simply not sure if thats what he was accurately saying.

-Thoughts on disk. I've been testing it as a one of all day and playing the academy ruins disk lock harder then the wish humility lock. So far it's been excellent.


Gosh, I maybe said it a hundred of times ^^

Jak
06-05-2009, 07:22 PM
Why hasn't the other Landstill thread gotten a lot of posts?

Really?

UBG is fine, it just lacks good, targeted removal. If you add white for Swords, then your manabase is crappy. UWb is just a damn good version so most are running it.

Ectoplasm
06-06-2009, 05:49 AM
UWb runs freaking Vindicate, if that isn't a good enough reason to run it I don't know what is.

mossivo1986
06-06-2009, 09:23 AM
Gosh, I maybe said it a hundred of times ^^

Refer to your own quote of me.

ugb has good targeted removal in maelstrom pulse. It also has Garruck and can probobly support counterspell better then uwb because of LFTL. It also has some interesting approaches with its overall game plan. Where it lacks? ITF is just better. GG no Re

ultimoman
06-06-2009, 11:58 AM
UWb runs freaking Vindicate, if that isn't a good enough reason to run it I don't know what is.

Vindicate can be great but I feel it may be a little slow for the deck and possibly unneccessary, plus hard to find room for. I'm considering using it but its a difficult choice.

Jak
06-06-2009, 12:33 PM
Refer to your own quote of me.

ugb has good targeted removal in maelstrom pulse. It also has Garruck and can probobly support counterspell better then uwb because of LFTL. It also has some interesting approaches with its overall game plan. Where it lacks? ITF is just better. GG no Re

Maelstrom Pulse is slow. When you don't have a 1cc removal spell to hold them off and you tap out turn 3 to get rid of a Goyf or Wild Nacatl you will probably lose. The 3cc of Pulse also conflicts with Deed. If the deck could run Swords while maintaining a stable manabase, it would be played.

ITF isn't even close to being the same deck.

Ectoplasm
06-06-2009, 02:44 PM
Vindicate can be great but I feel it may be a little slow for the deck and possibly unneccessary, plus hard to find room for. I'm considering using it but its a difficult choice.

I consider it the best card in the deck.

Gonna bring this list to a 100~ man tourney tommorrow, will be the first 'real' tourney to play with UWb landstill:

Land: 24
3x Delta
3x Strand
2x Island
2x Plains
1x Swamp
4x Tundra
1x Sea
1x Scrubland
3x Factory
3x Wasteland
1x A Ruins

Stuff: 37
2x Explosives
3x wog
3x vindicate
4x stp
4x FoW
3x Counterspell
3x Spell Snare
1x Eternal Dragon
2x DoJ
1x Elspeth
4x Brainstorm
2x FoF
1x Crucible
4x Standstill

Total: 61

Side:
4x MMage
3x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Halo
2x Ajani
4x Engineered Plague

Expected meta: Merfolk, some zoo, some combo, some goblins, some countertop. I'm not sure about the canonists, but last tourney I played in this 'scene' I faced 3 combodecks in a row so I'm hoping they'll prove worthwhile.
Any lastminute advice? :D

Tinefol
06-06-2009, 07:17 PM
To be quick:
Drop the wastelands, go with single Dust Bowl. Get Humility (instead of one or two WoGs), its probably the best card in the deck.

Ectoplasm
06-06-2009, 08:22 PM
I do *not* like dust bowl. One wasteland from the other side of the table and your LD potential is gone, I'll probably never play it.
I might try and make room for humility though.

rockout
06-06-2009, 08:23 PM
I do *not* like dust bowl. One wasteland from the other side of the table and your LD potential is gone.

Good man.

Careful, its sunny out there: :cool:

Citrus-God
06-07-2009, 12:47 AM
I do *not* like dust bowl. One wasteland from the other side of the table and your LD potential is gone, I'll probably never play it.
I might try and make room for humility though.

Decks that play Wasteland against you aren't decks you really want to cast Wasteland against anyway. With the exception of Merfolk, Aggro Loam and Vial Goblins.

Yeah, you should use Wastelands over Dust Bowl.

Shawon
06-07-2009, 01:02 AM
Only in multiples. Otherwise, a singleton Dust Bowl is better than a random Wasteland.

Citrus-God
06-07-2009, 01:39 AM
Only in multiples. Otherwise, a singleton Dust Bowl is better than a random Wasteland.

Not really. Timing if anything. Like, Wastelands can destroy opposing Mutavaults so you get that edge under Standstill. Dust Bowls could, but being expensive and a 1-of makes it difficult to make it more efficient.

Mark Sun
06-07-2009, 02:55 AM
Not really. Timing if anything. Like, Wastelands can destroy opposing Mutavaults so you get that edge under Standstill. Dust Bowls could, but being expensive and a 1-of makes it difficult to make it more efficient.

Tolaria West? Will at least increase your chances of getting it slightly. I dunno, I've tried both out right now and I'm slowly leaning towards Dust Bowl right now. Plus, taking out 4 Wasteland allowed me to add a Scrubland and Underground Sea to splash :b: for EE/EP.

Citrus-God
06-07-2009, 03:01 AM
Tolaria West? Will at least increase your chances of getting it slightly. I dunno, I've tried both out right now and I'm slowly leaning towards Dust Bowl right now. Plus, taking out 4 Wasteland allowed me to add a Scrubland and Underground Sea to splash :b: for EE/EP.

I'm playing 3 Wastelands right now. But you can find my list a few pages back.

Mark Sun
06-07-2009, 03:39 AM
I'm playing 3 Wastelands right now. But you can find my list a few pages back.

Ahh, okay. Yeah, a comparison of mana bases:

Yours:
+1 Underground Sea
+3 Wasteland

Mine:
+1 Dust Bowl
+1 Tolaria West
+1 Island
(Running one less land than you at the moment)

Comments & Thoughts:
I think I tend to overlook the graveyard-returning lands because I run two Relics MD (+1 SB), so I can at least remove effectiveness from them throughout the game. I saw your note about the lack of combo hate in your deck, though, and I understand: worst comes to worst, it's a cantrip in Game 1 so I can board in something Game 2+.

Btw, I also don't run any Crucible, although I'm highly considering that at the moment. Especially if I get a Scrub/Sea destroyed early in a game and I can't get the other for :b: & EP. I've also been tempted to get a second Sea if my budget allows (which, at the moment it does not). Do you really need 4x EP? I have 3 on the SB now.

Things I do like about your list: Tsabo's Decree. I forgot about this card, and am probably going to get one. Absolute killer. Also like the boarding of CS/SS and having a 3/3 mix MD. Played against 1cc Armageddon-Weenie earlier this weekend (casually, but still a pretty competitive game), and having Spell Snares in my hand annoyed the hell out of me. Pitched one to FoW early on, then it sat there in my hand. I think having the mix / toolbox would help out.

Last note, I read your comment on a 3rd FoF (I actually run 3 SDT instead...) and a 3rd DoJ, still trying to convince myself that it's okay :eyebrow:

gustha
06-07-2009, 08:33 AM
Last note, I read your comment on a 3rd FoF (I actually run 3 SDT instead...) and a 3rd DoJ, still trying to convince myself that it's okay :eyebrow:

I have strongly suggested to play 3 sdt because that cards is nuts. The arrangment mossivo gave to the draw engine of his deck is possibly the best I can figure with top/jace/bs/still. A reconsideration of my play style lead me to go down to 2 top+tutor, then 1top+tutor, and recently back to 0 sdt + 2 fof. Also, I recently went from 0 to 1 to finally 2 again Doj. Always found them cluncky and sometimes useless. Maybe my play style has changed a bit, or I got an epiphany and looked in the heart of the deck. but believe that if I had room, I'll stick into another doj and another fof. Here's what I'm playing atm:

Lands: 23
3 Island
3 Plains
1 Swamp
3 Tundra
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Wasteland
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Academy Ruins
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta

Walkers: 2
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Draw Engine: 9
4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
2 Fact or Fiction

Removal: 13
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
1 Wrath of God
1 Path to Exile

Permission: 10
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell

Other: 4
2 Decree of Justice
1 Humility
1 Crucible of Worlds

Sideboard (still thinking):
3 Meddling Mage
3 Extirpate
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ajani Goldmane
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2/3 Engineered Plague
2 Relic of Progenitus
0/1 Wheel of Sun and Moon (amazing...I've tested it and it's absolutely amazing...)

mossivo1986
06-07-2009, 10:32 AM
FYI Morbid is running a hybrid of my list. Ghusta's right about the draw engine. Its far more cost efficient as well as reaps the rewards you want to get. As for my model i'm actually screwing around with it way more then I want to. Just little changes here and there.

Mark Sun
06-07-2009, 02:48 PM
FYI Morbid is running a hybrid of my list. Ghusta's right about the draw engine. Its far more cost efficient as well as reaps the rewards you want to get. As for my model i'm actually screwing around with it way more then I want to. Just little changes here and there.

Yup, and it's working out really well at the moment. This is what I'm currently playing with, although I will say my competition isn't top-notch, there is time during play where I feel clunky, and I'm starting to get ideas for tweaking after reading this thread again.


Mana Base: (22)
3x Tundra
1x Underground Sea
1x Scrubland
4x Flooded Strand
3x Mishra's Factory
1x Tolaria West
1x Academy Ruins
1x Dust Bowl
3x Plains
4x Island

Creatures: (3)
2x Vendilion Clique (Working pretty well, I might keep)
1x Eternal Dragon

Permission: (8)
4x Force of Will
4x Counterspell

Draw/Card Control: (12)
4x Standstill
3x SDT
2x Brainstorm
1x Jace Beleran
2x Cunning Wish

Removal: (13)
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Path to Exile
3x Engineered Explosives
2x WoG
2x Relic of Progenitus
1x Humility

Finish Him! (4)
2x Decree of Justice
2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Sideboard: (15)
3x Spell Snare
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Pulse of the Fields
1x Fracturing Gust
1x Return to Dust
1x Trickbind
1x Extirpate
1x Enlightened Tutor
2x Ajani Goldmane
3x Engineered Plague


Things I'm thinking of / wish I could do:
- Add another Sea / Delta / Swamp for more consistency (too expensive at the moment)
- Also gives the ability to add in Vindicate (also damn expensive at the moment, when the hell did they get up to $15 a pop?!)
- Adding 2 Spell Snare MD, moving a Counterspell and Path to Exile to the wishboard for room.
- Tsabo's Decree (Chance of addition to SB: 90%+)
- Wastelands and Crucible of Worlds (Chance of addition, no idea)
- Wheel of Sun and Moon, which looks wonderful (Chance of addition: 70%+)
- FoF's again (Not sure what to move around in the draw suite for that.




@ Gustha, I see you're running 1 Disk / 1 WoG, what are the merits over running 2x WoG?

Ectoplasm
06-07-2009, 03:15 PM
I failed, horribly. The list was good, but I punted a couple of times, played an epic 48 min landstill mirror and overall I just sucked. I also tailored the sideboard to an aggro and combo metagame and I played 4 control matches out of 7 rounds, so I didn't get to use half of it.

I'll blame it on the lack of sleep and this being the first real tournament I took an actual UWb landstill list to, not gonna bother writing a report or something. Looking forward to the next attempt though :) I already promised myself I'd get a good night's rest and actually eat something so I won't get freaking dizzy with hunger halfway through.

mossivo1986
06-07-2009, 03:18 PM
Morbid that deck is not at all what I showed you and your hindering yourself by playing that pile.

Ectoplasm

I failed, horribly. The list was good, but I punted a couple of times, played an epic 48 min landstill mirror and overall I just sucked. I also tailored the sideboard to an aggro and combo metagame and I played 4 control matches out of 7 rounds, so I didn't get to use half of it.

I'll blame it on the lack of sleep and this being the first real tournament I took an actual UWb landstill list to, not gonna bother writing a report or something. Looking forward to the next attempt though :) I already promised myself I'd get a good night's rest and actually eat something so I won't get freaking dizzy with hunger halfway through.


What was your record?

Props:
-1st tournament with landstill "Quite a bit different then online play am I right?"
-48 minute landstill mirror "you lucky bastard I love the mirror. Its soo relaxing."

Slops:
-Decklist
-Lack of sleep or Eat
-Loosing the mirror
"you silly bitch, we teach you better ways then this!"

Mark Sun
06-07-2009, 03:20 PM
Morbid that deck is not at all what I showed you and your hindering yourself by playing that pile.

Jesus >_<;;

We gotta have a chit-chat session sometime, then. Later this week?

rockout
06-07-2009, 03:28 PM
Nah, before running landstill at a tournament you are suppose to get less than 3 hours of sleep and drive more hours than you slept to a tournament to have little food but still put wins out of your ass because you are running the best deck in the format.

Ectoplasm
06-07-2009, 03:32 PM
I went 2-5 :(
Landstill mirror - The board looked like this: Me with a factory, on 7 life, him with a singleton soldier on 3 life. I swing with factory, he takes it to the face, I pass the turn, he cycles decree for 6 and kills me WHILE I'M HOLDING AN ENGINEERED EXPLOSIVES IN MY HAND, and I knew for a fact that decrees were his last kill.

So yeah, just plain old sucking, nothing fancy about it. I'll do better next time.

mossivo1986
06-07-2009, 03:34 PM
I went 2-5 :(
Landstill mirror - The board looked like this: Me with a factory, on 7 life, him with a singleton soldier on 3 life. I swing with factory, he takes it to the face, I pass the turn, he cycles decree for 6 and kills me WHILE I'M HOLDING AN ENGINEERED EXPLOSIVES IN MY HAND, and I knew for a fact that decrees were his last kill.

So yeah, just plain old sucking, nothing fancy about it. I'll do better next time.

Addition to slops:
-2-5 :confused:
-Failure to fasten your ee seatbelt @ 0. :tongue:

Ectoplasm
06-07-2009, 03:41 PM
Yeah well :D Shitsux
Just laugh at me for a bit, I need the motivation, that's why I'm being as forward as possible about it. Honestly, the list seemed to operate smoothly as far as the MD went, but I completely fucked up on the sideboard and the actual playing.
But I guess that comes with experience. I'm used to playing goblins which is pretty much autopilot anyway. To add insult to injury, I borrowed my goblins to a friend who played his first tourney today and he did better than me :)

mossivo1986
06-07-2009, 04:13 PM
Yeah well :D Shitsux
Just laugh at me for a bit, I need the motivation, that's why I'm being as forward as possible about it. Honestly, the list seemed to operate smoothly as far as the MD went, but I completely fucked up on the sideboard and the actual playing.
But I guess that comes with experience. I'm used to playing goblins which is pretty much autopilot anyway. To add insult to injury, I borrowed my goblins to a friend who played his first tourney today and he did better than me :)

I was totally just riding your ass man!

Sorry if I offended. You did fine. Playing Land still in a tournament setting is worlds harder then testing on m.w.s. though.



Sideboard from Last tournament:


4x MMage
3x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Halo
2x Ajani
4x Engineered Plague

Try this out:
3 Chant
2 Ajani
4 Path
3 Relic
3 Blast

Possible Main deck Changes

-1 Ruins
-1 Crucible
-1 Standstill

+1 Elspeth or doj, whichever you prefer.
+1 EE

as you get used to that list in tournement play I would suggest -1 brainstorm -2 fof +2 Top +1 Jace

gustha
06-07-2009, 04:56 PM
@ Gustha, I see you're running 1 Disk / 1 WoG, what are the merits over running 2x WoG?

I don't. I run 3 EE + 1 Disk in place of the quite normal 3EE. That's a bit different point of view ^^ I cut down 1 wog to make room for a path to exile which:
-is online at t1;
-is better against merfolk;
-is not dead in mirror matches;
-is dead in all other Mu's in which wog is dead too.
Now I can't find room for the second wog, I must cut an EE for it's the only possibile slot I see, but it took ages to go up to 3EE+1 disk, so for the moment I'm not planning to add a 2nd wog (EE works just that better), or I got to go to 24 lands and I can't find room for the 24th land (just for consistency, you know). The urgence here is simply that land, wog is good in 1x for the moment. Yeah, going back to fof also suggests going back to 2 wog's-

Ectoplasm
06-07-2009, 05:28 PM
Yeah no offense taken :)
The SB was a complete failure, there's no question I'm going to change it next time. I made a metagame call and I was wrong, even though previous tourneys all pointed in that direction. While scouting pre-games I got a bad feeling about the canonists, but I decided to leave them in anyway which was a mistake.
Ruins didn't do jack except bring a crucible back once, after it got its ass countered, and proceeded to wastelock the opponent. Nice. But I've got my eye on that one :)
Crucible didn't do alot as well besides the aforementioned wastelocking in one game, it seems like a 'joker' of sorts, a nice and random card which is just cool, can be of great help but doesn't help the overall plan of the deck as much as I'd want it to, I've got my eye on you as well!
I might remove either or both of these cards since they seem like random 'jokers' more or less, adding a little cute extra trick but not helping the overall gameplan and in my opinion, UWb landstill is supposed to be the reliable deck which plays almost the same every game and doesn't try cheat with cute tricks but wins by pure cardadvantage and answers.

Going to 3 standstills? I don't know :/

One more killcon seems solid, I've considered jace but like I said I made a metagame call and decided against him, I might just throw him in for kicks and get raped by aggro next time :D Who knows.

But yeah, I've playtested a bit before entering and it is indeed alot different from playing online, it seems a bit more... chaotic perhaps. Which is why I'm sure it's just a lack of experience keeping me down right now.

One small example is that I can't seem to find a comfortable way of positioning my lands on the table. Right now I put all the duals in one row, the basics in another and the colourless lands in a 3rd row but the table just looks so messy whenever I'm playing, especially in a long game I tend to overlook things simply because the gamestate seems like a mess, because of all the shiny cards that clutter up the table.

ultimoman
06-07-2009, 09:48 PM
Mossivo, I see you are using and suggesting to use only 3 Brainstorms. I'm also considering that (since I use 2 Tops) but find it a hard choice to make because of its great use against discard, quick search, and it being pitchable to Force. I find it hard to take out, especially since I'm only running 20 blue cards including FoW's.

Ectoplasm, I agree with you about the Crucible but it can be so powerful in the right circumstances. Mishra's Factories, Wastelands, and Tolaria West can be bombs with it on the board and help alot in the mirror but sometimes I feel a better card could be used. I don't run any WoG at the moment and use 1 Disk and Humilities, instead but taking out the Crucible for a lone Wrath could be a good choice. Hard choice to make!

I also saw someone posted trying out a 3-3 split of SS and Counterspell, I'm thinking the same as well but time and testing will help that one.

Citrus-God
06-07-2009, 10:14 PM
Mossivo, I see you are using and suggesting to use only 3 Brainstorms. I'm also considering that (since I use 2 Tops) but find it a hard choice to make because of its great use against discard, quick search, and it being pitchable to Force. I find it hard to take out, especially since I'm only running 20 blue cards including FoW's.

Most builds run an average of 18 blue cards. Cutting down to 18-19 isn't that bad, really. Besides that, this deck feels naked when you FoW early in the game (which is why you run 4 Standstills).

Also, the natural evolution of Landstill has always swayed more towards a White-based control deck. Even if you run cards like Clique, it doesn't stop the fact the only reason why Landstill is thriving is because it's a board control deck. You could easily design it to fight opposing control and combo decks, but the more efficient way of even fighting those decks in general is to play a different deck. Landstill is amazing because it


Ectoplasm, I agree with you about the Crucible but it can be so powerful in the right circumstances. Mishra's Factories, Wastelands, and Tolaria West can be bombs with it on the board and help alot in the mirror but sometimes I feel a better card could be used.

Not just the mirror. Crucible of Worlds is amazing against Merfolk and Vial Goblins as well. I cant help but stress that if my mana base stabilizes, I can easily use my superior control elements to wreck Merfolk. Merfolk is generally a really weak deck if you can keep them in check for 7 turns and still consistently make land drops. Also, EEs are very important in this match up. EE for 1 clears Cursecatchers and Vials, which is really good. But take your time with your mana base first.


I don't run any WoG at the moment and use 1 Disk and Humilities, instead but taking out the Crucible for a lone Wrath could be a good choice. Hard choice to make!

Your list sounds clunky and indecisive. Post it, and we'll critique it.



I also saw someone posted trying out a 3-3 split of SS and Counterspell, I'm thinking the same as well but time and testing will help that one.

That is probably me.


@The Rockout situation: everybody should respect the man. I've read a lot of his posts, and he knows a good deal of what he's talking about. I've disagreed with him before, but that still doesn't change the fact he guy knows what he's talking about. Listen to him.

BKclassic
06-07-2009, 10:43 PM
I do *not* like dust bowl. One wasteland from the other side of the table and your LD potential is gone, I'll probably never play it.
I might try and make room for humility though.

This might be crazy, but has any one ever tried -wait for it- MORE than 1 dust bowl? My experience with UWb Landstill has been playing against it, but this card has always been pretty devastating to play against under standstill for me, and if one Wasteland undoes it, maybe 2-3 (in place of Wasteland) would be reasonable/balling?

Shawn
06-07-2009, 11:03 PM
I ran two for a while. It's ok, but I've switched back to Wastelands since they are less mana-intensive. Most of the time I was just using Dust Bowls just to destroy one or two utility lands, and not lock my opponent out.

ultimoman
06-07-2009, 11:04 PM
Most builds run an average of 18 blue cards. Cutting down to 18-19 isn't that bad, really. Besides that, this deck feels naked when you FoW early in the game (which is why you run 4 Standstills).

Also, the natural evolution of Landstill has always swayed more towards a White-based control deck. Even if you run cards like Clique, it doesn't stop the fact the only reason why Landstill is thriving is because it's a board control deck. You could easily design it to fight opposing control and combo decks, but the more efficient way of even fighting those decks in general is to play a different deck. Landstill is amazing because it

Hmm, you're right, I suppose I could take out the 4th Brainstorm for something. I do use 3 Standstills though instead of 4, I find that 4 can sometimes sit there when I need something to handle the current situation.



Not just the mirror. Crucible of Worlds is amazing against Merfolk and Vial Goblins as well. I cant help but stress that if my mana base stabilizes, I can easily use my superior control elements to wreck Merfolk. Merfolk is generally a really weak deck if you can keep them in check for 7 turns and still consistently make land drops. Also, EEs are very important in this match up. EE for 1 clears Cursecatchers and Vials, which is really good. But take your time with your mana base first.

Indeed, this is true. I was thinking of taking the Crucible out and putting it in the sideboard but perhaps I'll leave it in and add a WoG in place of a Brainstorm instead.


Your list sounds clunky and indecisive. Post it, and we'll critique it.

Alright, here it is:

Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [RAV] Island (3)
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
4 [R] Tundra
3 [6E] Plains (3)
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
2 [A] Underground Sea
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [TE] Wasteland

Planeswalkers:
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 [LRW] Jace Beleren

Spells:
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [MM] Counterspell
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
2 [TE] Humility
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
3 [OD] Standstill
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [5E] Nevinyrral's Disk
1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds

Sideboard:
1 [ARE] Enlightened Tutor
1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
2 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
1 [TSP] Return to Dust
3 [CFX] Path to Exile
2 [PLC] Extirpate
3 [UL] Engineered Plague
1 [SHM] Fracturing Gust
1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus

Taishaku
06-08-2009, 12:52 AM
@ultimoman, Jak.
Vindicate and Maelstrom Pulse are the great swiss army knives of Legacy. This is because there is little to nothing they can't kill, making them safe pre-board plays. If I ran black, I would be running Vindicates.

(Man... if people think Vindicate is slow... they need to try the old Crystal Quarry and Legacy Weapon Standard combo. xD)

@Morbid-
I find SDT without the Counterbalance to be a bit weird personally. And you maindeck Relic of Progenitus? Alongside an Eternal Dragon? Oo"

@Ectoplasm
If he isn't sporting green, priming an EE for 0 in that situation would have been in your favor. I mean, honestly, pretty much everything Landstill has that kills you costs 0 or 7. That is, unless they run Vendillion Clique or something rogueish.

I don't understand why we should cut Standstill to 3. Generally speaking, it's win-win. If they break it ASAP, it's 2 card advantage. If they wait, you get turns, and UWx Landstill is typically a late game deck.



What does everyone think about Faith's Fetters as a non-black solution to Planeswalkers? Juntu Stakes? Lol.

Jak
06-08-2009, 12:57 AM
@ultimoman, Jak.
Vindicate and Maelstrom Pulse are the great swiss army knives of Legacy. This is because there is little to nothing they can't kill, making them safe pre-board plays. If I ran black, I would be running Vindicates.

Thanks for telling me what the card does. You missed the point of my post. Black, green, and blue have no good, cheap removal that can just hit everything like Swords. This is the only thing holding it back. Relying on Maelstrom Pulse as your targetted removal is bad. By the time you play it, you will be too far behind.

Edit-

And the reason people are cutting Standstills is because some decks (ie Dreadstill, Merfolk, Goblins, etc) can play under it better so it will sit in your hand until you get the opportunity to play it.

Mark Sun
06-08-2009, 01:04 AM
@Morbid-
I find SDT without the Counterbalance to be a bit weird personally. And you maindeck Relic of Progenitus? Alongside an Eternal Dragon? Oo"


I don't understand why we should cut Standstill to 3. Generally speaking, it's win-win. If they break it ASAP, it's 2 card advantage. If they wait, you get turns, and UWx Landstill is typically a late game deck.

I was recommended SDT by mossivo, and so far it's been a great addition. You can do enough tricky things with it to really fix your draws and get cards that you need quickly, especially with shuffle capability (fetches, Tolaria West, Eternal, ET from the SB). Try it out?

And yeah, only reason I have ED right now is for a little extra help on the cycling front, as you can see, my list only has 4 fetches (ideally, I would like to run a Delta in there somewhere). I know it has a negative synergy with Relic (or rather, Relic has a negative synergy with it), but I do time my graveyard removals well, and if ED goes away, so be it.


Edit:

And the reason people are cutting Standstills is because some decks (ie Dreadstill, Merfolk, Goblins, etc) can play under it better so it will sit in your hand until you get the opportunity to play it.

Probably the reason I'll cut mine back down to 3...

Citrus-God
06-08-2009, 02:11 AM
Hmm, you're right, I suppose I could take out the 4th Brainstorm for something. I do use 3 Standstills though instead of 4, I find that 4 can sometimes sit there when I need something to handle the current situation.

I've been running 3 FoF and 3 Standstills lately. But that's beside the point, my reasoning for cutting the 4th Standstill was so that I can cast something over an active Counterbalance.

Merfolk is starting to run Standstill themselves, which isn't a big problem, because it's a contradicting card against you. They can't mana screw you with Stifle obviously, and the only card they were have on you is Vial, which can easily be removed by EE. Anyways, just play more cards that operate under Standstill more effectively, like Wasteland/Dust Bowl, Factories, and 2-3 DoJs. Also, don't break Standstill immediately (unless your opponent as an active Vial out as well) until you've stabilized your mana base. Even if he has Mutavaults, you can definitely waste opposing manlands and block with your own Factories.



Indeed, this is true. I was thinking of taking the Crucible out and putting it in the sideboard but perhaps I'll leave it in and add a WoG in place of a Brainstorm instead.


You know, I have always been a fan of Wrath of God. No joke. I will never run less than 3. If you aren't running WoG, you should be running Path of Exile.



Alright, here it is:

Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [RAV] Island (3)
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
4 [R] Tundra
3 [6E] Plains (3)
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
2 [A] Underground Sea
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [TE] Wasteland

Planeswalkers:
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 [LRW] Jace Beleren

Spells:
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [MM] Counterspell
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
2 [TE] Humility
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
3 [OD] Standstill
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [5E] Nevinyrral's Disk
1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds

Sideboard:
1 [ARE] Enlightened Tutor
1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
2 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
1 [TSP] Return to Dust
3 [CFX] Path to Exile
2 [PLC] Extirpate
3 [UL] Engineered Plague
1 [SHM] Fracturing Gust
1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus

Cut Disk for WoG. WoG is a much better card than Disk in the long run because it can bait swarms of creatures toward you. Ever dropped an Elspeth and made your opponent overextend? It's quite satisfying, and definitely not a dangerously "cool" play. Also, running 23 lands is very dangerous. You should run 25 mana sources for sure. The fact you make constant land drops let's you get away with casting cards like WoG, Tsabo's Decree and Fracturing Gust and still be out of Daze + Cursecatcher ranger.

Also, cut a Humility for an Enlighten Tutor. Post board, it can find EE and complete the Academy Ruins + EE lock if you fear Krosan Grip at any point in time. Better yet, it can find CoW too, so you have two maindeck copies by extension.

As for the SB, you should cut Relic and the 2nd Extirpate. Those cards aren't very strong and there are much better forms of grave hate if you really want grave hate. Consider Planar Void, Tormod's Crypt or even Yixlid Jailer.

BKclassic
06-08-2009, 03:58 AM
What does everyone think about Faith's Fetters as a non-black solution to Planeswalkers? Juntu Stakes? Lol.

I think Pithing Needle is the card you are looking for.

Misplayer
06-08-2009, 08:26 AM
Merfolk is starting to run Standstill themselves, which isn't a big problem, because it's a contradicting card against you. They can't mana screw you with Stifle obviously, and the only card they were have on you is Vial, which can easily be removed by EE. Anyways, just play more cards that operate under Standstill more effectively, like Wasteland/Dust Bowl, Factories, and 2-3 DoJs. Also, don't break Standstill immediately (unless your opponent as an active Vial out as well) until you've stabilized your mana base. Even if he has Mutavaults, you can definitely waste opposing manlands and block with your own Factories.


The problem with that is they run 4x Wasteland and 4x Mutavault and most Landstill builds run 3/4 or 3/3. You need Decree in a huge way against them, and by the time you have enough mana to trade instead of just delaying them, it's usually too late.

3duece
06-08-2009, 10:54 AM
Merfolk has better game under a standstill than we do, that's one of the major reasons I went back to 3 wasteland from ruins/west/bowl. We absolutely have to have efficient ways to remove mutavault.

Speaking of bad matchups for this deck, anyone play against pikula/deadguy lately? I know it's not a huge deck anymore as far as popularity, but it's an absolute beating. Spell snare and force are just not enough to stop 4 thoughtseize/hymn/sculler as discard and 4 wasteland/sinkhole/vindicate as ld. They can attack your hand, manabase and life total all at the same time. Half the time I couldn't even cast ee for 2, it was a miserable match. Unfortunately, it looks like this kind of deck is going to be a permanent part of my meta. Does anyone have any good strategy against it? My current list:

3 flooded
3 polluted
3 waste
3 mishra's
4 tundra
1 sea
1 scrubland
2 island
2 plains
1 swamp

4 brainstorm
3 standstill
2 fact
2 top
4 spell snare
4 force
1 counterspell

4 swords
3 vindicat
3 ee
2 wrath
1 path
2 elspeth
2 decree

mossivo1986
06-08-2009, 11:45 AM
@Extoplasm:
Ruins
is amazing in many different situations. It subtly can be amazing or disappointing based on what your model sees in said game.

Playing I.R.L.
The biggest difference I noticed is the speed at which different players play the game. I hate how aggressive players tend to take their sweet ass time game 1. Then when you beat them they speed up games 2 and 3 because there is 15 minutes left in the round. This to me is one of the rudest things a person can do. Then they call for a judge entitling you of slow play and (you) are made out to be the asshole. Now I am not a slow player by any means of the imagination. Ask Rockout or Isamaru or Irrelevant from the source. I've played them all.

@Citrus:
Disk
To be honest I didn't feel like disk was a winner either because of how slow it is. With that said it gives models of land still that do not have the type of inevitability necessary to win certain ridiculous match ups aka the mirror (More specifically a mirror like Konsultant's model versus My model)

@Ultimoman:
Brainstorm
The cards you replace brainstorm and standstill (instead of running four of each) are actually better against discard then playing a fourth brainstorm or standstill. Here is what I mean

3 Brainstorm
3 SDT
3 Standstill
1 Jace

You minus 1 brainstorm for an additional 3rd top, and 1 standstill for Jace. These two cards not only have more synergy with each other then the two cards your removing, they are better for a long term strategy. "if you've ever landed a jace with top in play its the equivalent of breaking a standstill ever other turn. " -Ghusta The cards are simply better in every scenario -1 where you standstill break into another standstill repetitiously. This perhaps is better then doing that into a Jace, but I wouldn't say Jace would at all be bad in that scenario.

@BK Classic:
I am one of the biggest advocates of the safer choice in land bases, and because of the meta shifting again I may actually go to 2 wasteland. It's sad but I don't see running 2 dust bowl's and I can't see not running crucible in the sideboard atleast if you run ruins and disk. Its too powerful not to run.

@Taishaku:
"That is, unless they run Vendillion Clique or something roguish."

-Tee Hee

@3 Duece:
-1 Counter spell
-1 Path to exile
-1 Brainstorm

+1 Ruins
+1 top
+1 Jace

mossivo1986
06-08-2009, 12:03 PM
Also:

@The Rockout situation: everybody should respect the man. I've read a lot of his posts, and he knows a good deal of what he's talking about. I've disagreed with him before, but that still doesn't change the fact he guy knows what he's talking about. Listen to him.

I didn't know there was a situation until I read the pm and I don't want anyone thinking that I think i'm a better player then him or anyone else. The intent of what I said in said post was actually to mock myself and end up aggreing with him because I think atleast his record at the GP had like 1-2 more wins then me "I needed to make day 2"

The posts comment was just B.S. because the fucker posts X4 my speed on the source. I just don't have that kind of patience with some of the other people on this website to do that sort of thing.

Sorry if there was confusion, no harm meant.
-Joel/Moss

NQN
06-08-2009, 12:10 PM
@3Duece: Iīve always felt Deadguy as a positive matchup. The only real "threat" they have is confidant. If youīre on the play you can easily hide Snare/SS with Brainstorm or land a top on turn 1 which is great against disruption. I try as hard as I can, but I canīt remember any match I lost on a tournament to B/x Confi.dec. (Eva Green has even less threats, if you board in some paths it should be nearly impossible for them to kill us).

ultimoman
06-08-2009, 12:31 PM
Thanks Citrus! I'll do some testing.



Speaking of bad matchups for this deck, anyone play against pikula/deadguy lately? I know it's not a huge deck anymore as far as popularity, but it's an absolute beating. Spell snare and force are just not enough to stop 4 thoughtseize/hymn/sculler as discard and 4 wasteland/sinkhole/vindicate as ld. They can attack your hand, manabase and life total all at the same time. Half the time I couldn't even cast ee for 2, it was a miserable match.

I thought I was the only one. Along with Ad Nauseam, thats a horrible matchup for me as well. I have to play very smart against them. Its a winnable match but can be quite difficult.

The Disk I'm still up in the air about. It can help in quite a few matchups, is easier to play because of colorless but it being slower can be a problem. Sometimes I want a WoG, sometimes I want a Disk.

@ Moss: Thats a good point, thanks! I'm using two tops at the moment but would definitely have to try out a third somewhere. I'm running a 3/3 split of Snare and Counterspell; I love CS in some matchups but I suppose I could take out a Counterspell to make room.

Tea
06-08-2009, 12:41 PM
hello,
I'm rather new to this deck.
What I'm intrested in is: What is the best combination of Vindicate/engineered explosives/Wrath of god/Humility ? and why?
thank you.

3duece
06-08-2009, 12:58 PM
I would only run humility with enlightened tutor somewhere in the 75. As for the rest, the removal suite usually goes:

4 stp
3 ee
3/4 vindicate or 2/3 cunning wish
2 wrath of god.

Citrus-God
06-08-2009, 01:15 PM
The problem with that is they run 4x Wasteland and 4x Mutavault and most Landstill builds run 3/4 or 3/3. You need Decree in a huge way against them, and by the time you have enough mana to trade instead of just delaying them, it's usually too late.

They need to draw Wasteland against you if they want Standstll superiority. While they run 4 copies of Wasteland, their manlands still suck compared to your one Factory. A Factory can block 3 Mutavaults all day until they draw into a Wasteland. Also, who said you can't cycle DoJ for a small amount of tokens? I cycles DoJs for 3 so frequently when under Standstill, I throw them out just so they can break their own Standstills.

gustha
06-08-2009, 07:00 PM
They need to draw Wasteland against you if they want Standstll superiority. While they run 4 copies of Wasteland, their manlands still suck compared to your one Factory. A Factory can block 3 Mutavaults all day until they draw into a Wasteland. Also, who said you can't cycle DoJ for a small amount of tokens? I cycles DoJs for 3 so frequently when under Standstill, I throw them out just so they can break their own Standstills.

This is just one of the scenarios that made me put again 2 doj in my list (welcome back, after a year without any!). I agree with citrus here, it's not mathematically that a deck with vial has a better game under standstill than us (at least if they don't resolve vial...): standstill is DESIGNED to play under standstill, in merfolk it's just an extemporary spell that causes some pain to all the decks who are not designed to play under such spell (this is not our case). I'm sometimes glad that they drop some merfolk, play standstill, I sword/path something in response at laugh at myself holding my first doj to trade for his manlands (at least). The game is much easier from thatpoint on, since they are entering OUR battlefield, and they can't use counters to avoid breaking their own standstill which is good for us. In every case, snare is ready out there. (It still remains a difficult MU.)


You minus 1 brainstorm for an additional 3rd top, and 1 standstill for Jace. These two cards not only have more synergy with each other then the two cards your removing, they are better for a long term strategy. "if you've ever landed a jace with top in play its the equivalent of breaking a standstill ever other turn. " -Ghusta The cards are simply better in every scenario -1 where you standstill break into another standstill repetitiously. This perhaps is better then doing that into a Jace, but I wouldn't say Jace would at all be bad in that scenario.
Agreed, agreed, agreed. I got back to fof just because I can't afford 3 tops due to the lack of blue cards, and I usually want to go heavy on removals (and I don't want to run wish, vindicate is just that amazingly good). I might add a 24th land too, to help consisntency, but I don't find room... (maybe I'll put it in my sleeves...do you think someone will notice? During the summer that would be a problem...). Agreed that the meta has changed, a 2x wasteland instead of 1x dust bowl i think is needed. (Plus they work far better in synergy with 3x vindicate).

Elf_Ascetic
06-09-2009, 04:10 AM
This is just one of the scenarios that made me put again 2 doj in my list (welcome back, after a year without any!). I agree with citrus here, it's not mathematically that a deck with vial has a better game under standstill than us (at least if they don't resolve vial...): standstill is DESIGNED to play under standstill, in merfolk it's just an extemporary spell that causes some pain to all the decks who are not designed to play under such spell (this is not our case). I'm sometimes glad that they drop some merfolk, play standstill, I sword/path something in response at laugh at myself holding my first doj to trade for his manlands (at least). The game is much easier from thatpoint on, since they are entering OUR battlefield, and they can't use counters to avoid breaking their own standstill which is good for us. In every case, snare is ready out there. (It still remains a difficult MU.)

This is the reason why I run a full playset of Factory's. They're amazing when facing small creatures or opposing manlands. Or both. A fourth manland gives me the egde in the mirror too. I run 1 decree, btw.

Taishaku
06-09-2009, 04:19 AM
I think Pithing Needle is the card you are looking for.

Ain't got any. T_T

Lol. Plus, it keeps getting wrecked by Engineered Explosives.


The Disk I'm still up in the air about. It can help in quite a few matchups, is easier to play because of colorless but it being slower can be a problem. Sometimes I want a WoG, sometimes I want a Disk.

I agree. The speed is definitely an issue. I mean, with Academy Ruins, you can continuously wipe the field, but unless you're packing Tolaria West, you rarely get the combo out (I'm assuming it's a 2 Disk, 1 Ruin mix). Also, I don't run it because I find the fact that it doesn't kill Planeswalkers rather disappointing. Still, Elspething your Disk is always fun. It's too bad I don't have any Elspeths. They're nigh impossible to find these days, and I'm not interested in buying a pair online. ><


This is the reason why I run a full playset of Factory's. They're amazing when facing small creatures or opposing manlands. Or both. A fourth manland gives me the egde in the mirror too. I run 1 decree, btw.

It's not too common to see less than 4 Mishra's Factory... is it? They're like bread and butter for this deck. Oo"

Holo_rip
06-09-2009, 05:01 AM
Just a quick thought :

what do you guy think of vedalken shackle in landstill ?
Even if we run a rather low land of island (from 7 to 9 depending on the list), i think it might be worth looking at.
Deck tend to run fewer and fewer threat (exept for tribal deck, and even in those matchup it act as removal), thus acting as a win condition or a removal depending on the situation. It is even more amazing with ruin (which people tend to play alos in combination with explosive).

So, your opinion on this ?

Misplayer
06-09-2009, 07:31 AM
It's not too common to see less than 4 Mishra's Factory... is it? They're like bread and butter for this deck. Oo"

I only run 4 if I'm not playing Decree, but that's just me.


Just a quick thought :

what do you guy think of vedalken shackle in landstill ?
Even if we run a rather low land of island (from 7 to 9 depending on the list), i think it might be worth looking at.
Deck tend to run fewer and fewer threat (exept for tribal deck, and even in those matchup it act as removal), thus acting as a win condition or a removal depending on the situation. It is even more amazing with ruin (which people tend to play alos in combination with explosive).

So, your opinion on this ?

The issue is assembling WW is more important than UU+ in most Landstill builds (plus you run Factory, Wasteland, and probably Ruins). If you're trying to set up your manabase to make Shackles effective against say 4/5 Goyfs, plus be able to cast Elspeth/Wrath/Humility, then it could be difficult. That said, I've used it in the past with moderate success out of the board in an Enlightened Tutor build. I think it's worthwhile in the Tribal matchup especially; not-so-much in the CounterTop/Aggro Control matchup.

gustha
06-09-2009, 07:49 AM
This is the reason why I run a full playset of Factory's. They're amazing when facing small creatures or opposing manlands. Or both. A fourth manland gives me the egde in the mirror too. I run 1 decree, btw.

I run 3 just for the fact I wanted to leave unchanged the number of uncolored lands, so -1 bowl -1 factory +2 wasteland. The second doj works very weel, and I tend not to win by mishra beatdown if I'm not 200% sure my oppo does not run swords to plowshares or the like, except when I'm low on cards in hand and sac a mishra to draw 3 (some opponents believe that if they attack and I respond activating mishra under standstill, I'm that stupid and I'm not aware they have a removal in hand...).


Just a quick thought :

what do you guy think of vedalken shackle in landstill ?
Even if we run a rather low land of island (from 7 to 9 depending on the list), i think it might be worth looking at.
Deck tend to run fewer and fewer threat (exept for tribal deck, and even in those matchup it act as removal), thus acting as a win condition or a removal depending on the situation. It is even more amazing with ruin (which people tend to play alos in combination with explosive).

So, your opinion on this ?
I like much more explosives, for the same reason I like much more counterspell than mana leak. I don't like giving my opponent the choice to respond or hate my tools. I dont' like paying 5 mana to steal a creature when I can pay the same or less to destroy hopefully more than one. However, it's not a bad card, and works amazingly good under standstill. As a 1-2x, it can be worth a slot (one possible slot is humility's, they cover the same role and has more or less the same weaknesses). For the rest, I share misplayer's thought.

Elf_Ascetic
06-09-2009, 08:43 AM
Ok, in my latest build, I'm not running Ruins (It feels way to slow..), so the number of colorless lands here is the same. (6.) (4+2 wasteland)

mossivo1986
06-09-2009, 10:48 AM
I firmly disagree. Academy ruins is what wins you the long term game in almost all of said games against a number of different Archtypes. I can't possibly see how anyone can just not run the card. Ruins is the way you consistently stop counterbalance.

gustha
06-09-2009, 12:08 PM
I firmly disagree. Academy ruins is what wins you the long term game in almost all of said games against a number of different Archtypes. I can't possibly see how anyone can just not run the card. Ruins is the way you consistently stop counterbalance.

Ruins is the way you deal with most of what lands on the field, not only counterbalance... You can vary the number of LD from 0 to 3, you can strenghten or smooth the number of manlands, you can add or remove tools like kor haven, kjeldoran outpost and the like, but I would never, never leave academy ruins out of my list... It's too much synergistyc with many things MD and SB to play without it. Plus one of the goal of landstill is to have much more answers than the threats of any opponent, and it is able to do this in only 60-61 cards by maximizing the effects every single card has (Leibniz would call landstill "the best possible deck" :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: ): we have board control that act as wincon, wincons that act as board control element, removals that saves permission and permission that buys time till we get removals, and so on. Academy ruins is one of the key cards of landstill strategy, I can't really figure a deck without the most important generator of (not only) virtual superiority of answers to any number of opposing threats (it virtually duplicates till infinite disk and EE, which is one of the major plans of the deck). Plus it's good in those 1% games when you stall and you and your opponent both finish the wincons, to recurr and win the opponent by decking him :wink:

mossivo1986
06-09-2009, 12:53 PM
Ruins is the way you deal with most of what lands on the field, not only counterbalance... You can vary the number of LD from 0 to 3, you can strenghten or smooth the number of manlands, you can add or remove tools like kor haven, kjeldoran outpost and the like, but I would never, never leave academy ruins out of my list... It's too much synergistyc with many things MD and SB to play without it. Plus one of the goal of landstill is to have much more answers than the threats of any opponent, and it is able to do this in only 60-61 cards by maximizing the effects every single card has (Leibniz would call landstill "the best possible deck" :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: ): we have board control that act as wincon, wincons that act as board control element, removals that saves permission and permission that buys time till we get removals, and so on. Academy ruins is one of the key cards of landstill strategy, I can't really figure a deck without the most important generator of (not only) virtual superiority of answers to any number of opposing threats (it virtually duplicates till infinite disk and EE, which is one of the major plans of the deck). Plus it's good in those 1% games when you stall and you and your opponent both finish the wincons, to recurr and win the opponent by decking him :wink:

Its also great when your opponent grips your top, then you drop ruins and snag it back (Shakes baby powder over hand) "Pimp hand motha FU@%&*!!"

gustha
06-09-2009, 04:18 PM
Its also great when your opponent grips your top, then you drop ruins and snag it back (Shakes baby powder over hand) "Pimp hand motha FU@%&*!!"

With all the evidence this is the worst case scenario to play ruins :tongue: Especially in the mirror or against deck with grip, the best situation is when they CS/force/grip your top (they have the strange idea that landstill has room only for one or a couple of them) and then you pop another one out of your hand, lol! I forgot to mention the great synergy academy ruins has with fact or fiction: when the opponent separates the piles so that we are force to chose between artifacts and permission/removals, we can easily take the removals and then land ruins. The expression on their faces is really worth. "Now who's the last to laugh?" Muahahahaha (Being serious: ruins make your fof's a 3U: draw 4 cards.)

ultimoman
06-09-2009, 05:23 PM
I might add a 24th land too, to help consisntency, but I don't find room)

I've been thinking of doing the same as well but 24 lands are alot, especially if you have draw and library manipulation such as the Top.

Taishaku
06-09-2009, 09:18 PM
The issue is assembling WW is more important than UU+ in most Landstill builds (plus you run Factory, Wasteland, and probably Ruins).

Really? I typically assemble UU first in order to use my Counterspells, but then again, my deck uses 4 Swords to Plowshares and 2 Path to Exile. =\


what do you guy think of vedalken shackle in landstill ?

Well, we need to ask: do the Vedalken Shackles make Landstill do what it does better? I don't think so. I mean, why run a whole bunch of removal when you have Shackles? Anyhow, if you do run Shackles, say, in place of Wrath of God, your deck will definitely become more blue.


Leibniz would call landstill "the best possible deck"

If I recall correctly, he was mocked for this viewpoint by Voltaire in Candide. Anyhow, here, there are many decks to choose from, so you can definitely have a "better" deck.


I firmly disagree. Academy ruins is what wins you the long term game in almost all of said games against a number of different Archtypes. I can't possibly see how anyone can just not run the card. Ruins is the way you consistently stop counterbalance.

I agree. Recurring Engineered Explosives is pretty useful in many situations. I mean, being able to set Engineered Explosives at 1-3cc every other turn can really keep the Goblins and Merfolk down.



Anyhow, here's my list. It's nothing groundbreaking. Rather traditional, I would say.

Land (23)
4 Mishras Factory
1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Tropical Island
4 Island
4 Plains

Other (5)
2 Humility
3 Decree of Justice

Permission (11)
3 Spell Snare
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

Draw (9)
3 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
2 Fact or Fiction

Removal (12)
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
3 Wrath of God
3 Engineered Explosives

Sideboard (15)
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Path to Exile
4 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Krosan Grip
1 Wrath of God

I dropped 2 Eternal Dragon for the 2 maindeck Humility. This also freed up room in the SB for Blue Elemental Blast. I have found you can never have too much one-for-one in a deck. Indeed, most of my trouble is attributing to not having a one-for-one spell early on to stop Goblin Lackey or a Dark Ritual-summoned Hypnotic Specter and etc. Otherwise, I can just drop my 1cc Engineered Explosives on turn one (for Vial), then drop Standstill or use Spell Snare and Counterspell on turn 2.

3duece
06-09-2009, 10:07 PM
Your list looked meta'd against merfolk. If it is then it's quite good, but if not 3 wrath and 2 humility main are entirely overkill. Also, path is not as good as vindicate, your only current way to handle annoying things like counterbalance is engineered explosoives.

Misplayer
06-09-2009, 10:50 PM
Really? I typically assemble UU first in order to use my Counterspells, but then again, my deck uses 4 Swords to Plowshares and 2 Path to Exile. =\
Needing an early UU is one of the biggest weaknesses of Counterspell in my estimation. In your build, you'll often want UU turn 2 and WW turn 4 which makes your manabase super vulnerable to non-basic hate/stifle effects.

list
Fit 2 Elspeth in there, you will not regret it. I firmly believe it's one of the best cards in Landstill.

rockout
06-09-2009, 11:58 PM
Fit 2 Elspeth in there, you will not regret it. I firmly believe it's one of the best cards in Landstill.

They are expensive but well worth it. There are 3 cards you pretty much have to run to be competitive running landstill. Elspeth, EE, and Force.

Citrus-God
06-10-2009, 12:57 AM
They are expensive but well worth it. There are 3 cards you pretty much have to run to be competitive running landstill. Elspeth, EE, and Force.

4 cards: Spell Snare is a must.

gustha
06-10-2009, 02:57 AM
I've been thinking of doing the same as well but 24 lands are alot, especially if you have draw and library manipulation such as the Top.

Yeah, but as you can see in the last list I posted, I got back to fof so I might need a 24th land to stabilize. I might have got the solution, tx to mossivo for illuminating me (without wanting it ^^).





Leibniz would call landstill "the best possible deck"
If I recall correctly, he was mocked for this viewpoint by Voltaire in Candide. Anyhow, here, there are many decks to choose from, so you can definitely have a "better" deck.
Voltaire was a mediocre philosopher (just by my opinion) who has not understand a thing of Leibniz. "The best world possible" does not mean this is a world in which suffering is extirpated or everybody leaves in peace (such a word is NOT possible, given the human nature); the modal cathegory of "possible" switches the reasoning from ethics (the point, the wrong point, on which Voltaire attacked Leibniz in Candide) to logic: "the best world possible" means: "the world in which we have the major possible number of effects given the least possible number of causes". In this sense, landstill is "the best deck possible", according to the same logic, because it's the deck in which we can achieve the major possible number of effects given the least possible combination of cards/causes. This is independent from the fact (the "ethic" or "performing" viewpoint) that the deck wins (which, nonetheless, it does). So, keep logic distinct from ethics and you can understand Leibniz.

And I agree with misplayer, assembling WW is most important of assembling UU. That's why some run only 2 counterspell. The reason is that you can remove all that you don't want to counter, this buys you the same time and saves your counters for the mid-late gae, in which they are more important. And since your removal/bombs are usually on the white side of the deck, assembling WW is far more important against the most of the field then assembling the mana for counterspell (I don't see any victory to goblin or merfolk, e.g. if you try to assemble counterspell before stp/path or wrath/EE).
Even spell snare is a must, 3 or 4 of them (due to the logic of remove what I can counter, I prefer 4 and 2 CS, focusing on removals, but that's up to you).

EDIT:

However, the acknowledgment that this zone is, in fact, fully within the game does bring about functional changes to the six Wishes, Ring of Ma'rûf, and the Research half of Research // Development. These cards let you get cards from "outside the game," which has been ruled to include your card collection (in casual games), your sideboard (in tournament games), and the removed-from-the-game zone. That's no longer the case. Exiled cards are not outside the game (and you could argue that they never really were), so these cards will no longer be able to access cards in that zone. Their primary functionality—getting cards from your collection or sideboard—remains unchanged, of course.
So no more wish on cards pitched to fow, that's great! (I'm sarcastic, of course.) These changes are stupid and done for a stupid purpose.

To figure out exactly where the problems were, we got into the mind of the casual player—not the player knee-deep in regular sanctioned play or Magic Online, but rather the one who plays our game at home, at school, or at the small local shop. We drew upon our own experiences and those of our co-workers. We ran focus tests. We went out in the field and played against such players—players who love, love, love Magic but don't have the need or desire to devote themselves to learning all the ins and outs of the rules.
It's just like conduit a poll on how difficult is driving a car on a sample of people who only ride bycicles. That's absolutely idiot! If people want to learn play magic, than for the sake of god pick up the f*cking and free downloadable Comprehensive Rules and just learn to play, if you want to access competitive magic. If you instead want to play at school, home, or at your local store, then by all means REMAIN AT SCHOOL (where you better study, incidentally), AT HOME OR AT YOUR DAMNED LOCAL STORE! However, with the reconsideration of damage step, our mishra's become nothing more than a mere mutavault with the option of dpumping now and then. I stopped playing vintage after the b/r's of last june. This june will be a good thing if I don't stop playing magic at all.

3duece
06-10-2009, 12:40 PM
Oh shit, I forgot about mishra's factory getting nerfed in combat, that is absolutely lame. It doesn't even trade with a threshed mongoose anymore.

Misplayer
06-10-2009, 12:47 PM
I believe it still does: declare blockers, pump before damage. Also, who plays Mongoose anymore?

ultimoman
06-10-2009, 01:36 PM
I believe it still does: declare blockers, pump before damage. Also, who plays Mongoose anymore?

I believe so as well. From my understanding, the Factories aren't affected by this change. Mogg Fanatic on the other hand, is.

DomoKun
06-10-2009, 01:41 PM
Hi Landstill folks, Im new to the mtg the source and like to pilot landstill too. Of cos i do play alot of decks. Recently after reading the articles here and do some tweaking based on Joel Aka Mossivo1986.

23 lands

4 tundras
1 underground sea
1 scrubland
1 tolaria west
1 academy ruin
3 mishra factory
4 flooded strand
1 polluted delta
3 islands
1 dustbowl
3 plains

6 artifacts

3 EE
3 Top

3 planewalkers

2 elspeth
1 jace

28 Spells

2 cunning wish
3 spell snare
3 counterspell
3 brainstorm
3 standstill
4 fow
2 decree of justice
2 wrath of God
1 humilty
1 enlightened tutor
4 sword to plowshares

SB

4 relic of progenitus
2 ajani goldmane
1 return to dust
1 stifle
1 path
3 BEB
1 pulse of the field
1 extirpate
1 cop red

@joel: i like ur build and after testing 3 x top are really needed. I place the relic to sb becos of own metagame. Also i put in one more land for consistency. counterspell may be overrated but it good to counter late stuff.
Mana base is very stable due to lot of basic. juz wonder what will u take out for burn in exchange for ajani?

To all, i juz feel that jace + top without disturbance is sick and top is good as it let u constantly dig out solution. Fact or fiction is good too as it give u CA but top is more consistent, faster and less prone to counter.

counterbalance is good when they land first and get adv over u. else EE will play ard it. Academy ruins is something should not be cut as recurring EE will bring problem to other player.

about wasteland? I duno i think 4 is too heavy, landstill need color and stability for early turn, dustbowl is more economical. if i were to play waste, probably 2 but of cos crucible will boost up more. Moreover, i notice lately ppl has been playing more basic, making ur wasteland more of killing their key land and dustbowl does handle this well.

Alright folks, do give me some critic on my build and sb, cheers

NQN
06-10-2009, 03:44 PM
Tutor sucks with only so few targets, 4 snare 2 cs>>>>>3/3 Split. Stifle is a really really bad wishtarget and more paths would be nutz.

Ectoplasm
06-10-2009, 04:44 PM
Tutor sucks with only so few targets, 4 snare 2 cs>>>>>3/3 Split. Stifle is a really really bad wishtarget and more paths would be nutz.

I really, honestly dislike it when people write their posts like this. I wish people would stop 'stating' things (for example 4 snare 2 cs owns 3/3) and actually try and discuss why instead.
As far as I know Geoff is the most succesful Legacy landstill player out there and I didn't see a single snare in his last list, so flatout saying snares own CSpells warrants an eyebrow-raising emoticon from me at least :really:

I run 3/3 myself.

NQN
06-10-2009, 05:05 PM
Well, itīs just like that, if one would actually read this thread, heīd notice at least one of the xXx discussions about Snare and CS.
Geoff is not in compete with anyone of us, 'cause he even wins with a list where the avg. cc. seems to be at ~5.
I just CAN_NOT understand how you can not run a full set of Spell Snares. It does exactly what the deck need. CS is good in the middle to lategame where Snare shines in the phase of the game where our deck usually sucks hard:
Early Game. So, why not play the best card for the worst phase we can have?
It counters EVERY spell except for Intuition thats strong against us and costs only one blue.
So thats my point. Play a set of SS or go f*** yourself.
Ah, and you really want me or any other to point out why stifle is a horrible wishtarget? I donīt think so...

Greetz,
NQN

EDIT: Btw, Snare really owns CS ;)

gustha
06-10-2009, 05:08 PM
I really, honestly dislike it when people write their posts like this. I wish people would stop 'stating' things (for example 4 snare 2 cs owns 3/3) and actually try and discuss why instead.
As far as I know Geoff is the most succesful Legacy landstill player out there and I didn't see a single snare in his last list, so flatout saying snares own CSpells warrants an eyebrow-raising emoticon from me at least :really:

I run 3/3 myself.

It's not true that geoff does not run snare, they're in 3x in his sideboard. He does not run snare MD but for a very simple reason: he plays plenty of removal (3 wrath MD), so he survive till mid-late game without any particular difficulty, and so for him there's no reason to run snare MD while he can handle the very first turns in other manner. Remember that spending life points in the early stages of the game is a resource that some landstill player often try to forget.

Besides this, I hate stating post too: the nature (god or whichever you think is the cause of the universe, if you ever think the universe has a cause) gave us reasoning, so please let's use it! Landstill is based on the complicated interaction of a U part with a W part: basically, the golden rule is that in landstill you can remove all that you can't (or aren't able to) counter, and viceversa you shoul be able to counter all that you can't (or aren't able to) remove. You shouldn't have to fit a certain number of counters or removals just because someone told you so, but according to your playstyle and relating to other choices you made in your build. I myself prefer playing with a 4/2 split because:
a) my manabase runs 7 basics, so I've got no early UU (and, as we discussed above, it's more important to reach WW than UU in the very first turns);
b) I run a pack of 13 removals (7 spot and 5 mass, of which 4 are recurrable), so I keep counterspell for the mid-late game bombs and I love to have spell snare to keep my opponent's cheap threats away from the table, and keep the opponent himslef walking at my pace.
Most of the nasty things we would avoid have cc2 (counterbalance, survival, DD, life, tarmo, chalice@1, confi, counterspell, etc.), so snare is THE counter for the early game. And since I ALWAYS want to see a spell snare in my opening hand or near, 4 copies it's for me the right number. Instead, I like to see counterspells in a more advanced state of game, so 2x is for me the right number. It's not a logic necessity that this split is better than 3/3.

I think an approach as that of joel to the deck can work well with a 4/2 split, since the draw engine fairly supports the removal suite (which is lighter than mine), especially if you run sb tools like extirpate, negate, chant, or the like. Using correctly your removals may prove counterspells a little useless until midgame, but that's just opinion. I think joel shares this view as it runs a 4/2 split too (with clique instead of CS). And E tutor is a good sb card in that list, it may better be a crucible, another land, a path to exile, a disk...

EDIT: cleaned up ^^

mossivo1986
06-10-2009, 05:13 PM
Predictions:

With 2010's rulings I predict Landstil Will be seeing alot more play.

I'm no longer working on the Wish Still list right now so I can't really offer you any kind of advice accept any lists you have seen on the thread. I spent alot of time going through card selections and different arguments. here is the final list I ran:

4 tundra
1 scrub
1 underground
4 Flooded
1 Polluted
3 island
3 plains
3 mishra
1 academy ruins
1 dust bowl
1 tolaria west

3 BS
3 top
3 standstill
1 jace

4 STP
3 EE
1 Wrath
1 humility
1 Disk

4 Force
4 snare
2 vendillion

2 elspeth
2 decree

sb:
1 pulse
1 pate
1 tutor
1 r2d
2 ajani
4 path
3 negate
1 relic
1 wrath/ shackles

The list works well but there are substantial problems with certain matchups aka merfolk and ant.

With 2010 screwing up the combat step and hurting ant with its mana shenanigans maybe magic with look in Land stills favor.

Currently as I said i'm working on another wish still list thats much different and more exciting with a couple of friends of mine.

Team Awesome

Benie Bederios
06-10-2009, 05:14 PM
I myself played Cunning Wish to reasonable succes with 3 targets because. Sideboard sucks with only so few cards. If the meta is so defined you can manage with 3/5 targets why not? I believe you can manage your wishboard with Extirpate, Return to Dust and Pulse of the Field. Next to that I wouldn't add more than 2 cards like creature removal. My complete SB was:

1 Extirpate
1 Return to Dust
1 Pulse of the Field
3 Engineered Plague
3 Relic of Progenitus
4 Meddling Mage
2 Ajani, Goldmane

I could board against almost any matchup and wishes where never dead.

The meta here changed so much though that I believe( and with me others) that Vindi-Still is the best here. I also like Fact or Fiction more then Sensei's Divining Top. Sure it hits the board later, but hey I'm playing a control deck. I have 23 lands and alot of cheap answer to make sure I can cast Fact. A deck so full of bombs makes Fact or Fiction very dangerous.

Some people say that Fact or Fiction is slower, but that is'n true. Fact or Fiction can win the game on turn 5. It moves you from the mid-game in one giant leap to the late game, wich you will win most of the time. I do think that in a Cunning Wish build, Fact or Fiction is less needed.

Same goes for Jace, it's a good card but in Holland it's a semi, cantripping Sorcery speed 3-mana Fog. Elspeth protects here self with her soldiers so it works, but Jace is even more a liability then Standstill.

About the list Domokun:

It looks good I would change though

1) -1 Plains, +1 Polluted Delta.
The only reason for this are the Brainstorms and Sensei's Divining Top. Somewhere a whole time ago in the Solidarity thread some math geeks calculated that 6 would be the ideal shuffle cards with a deck with 4 Brainstorms. I came to the same conclusion with testing. With 3 Tops next to them I would really play 6 fetchlands going to 7 shuffle effects.

2) -1 Top
The card isn't bad( just not good in my meta) but you already have Enlightened Tutor too, so you already have 4 MD and you don't want to have 2 in your openinghand. But if you felt it was needed due to testing, go ahead.

3) -1 Stifle(SB)
NQN is right it's a poor target. Can you tell me what you want to Stifle? for most cards you have already a solution in the deck. Stifling Wasteland is hardly needed after turn 4. Pernicious Deed can be countered and normally it is used to blow up Humility so most of the time you can wish for Return to Dust. Same is true for Engineered Explosives.

For any other help I would like to know your meta. I see you don't have any combohate in your sideboard and 5 slots against Rx aggro.

Benie

EDIT: @ Mossivo, remember that Merfolk didn't loose any power either( in fact it gained power because Goblins is worse.) Merfolk isn't a nice matchup( not very bad though.) I would definitly keep Plague in the SB for that. It isn't the best answer but it hampers them still.

mossivo1986
06-10-2009, 05:15 PM
It's not true that geoff does not run snare, they're in 3x in his sideboard. He does not run snare MD but for a very simple reason: he plays plenty of removal (3 wrath MD), so he survive till mid-late game without any particular difficulty, and so for him there's no reason to run snare MD while he can handle the very first turns in other manner. Remember that spending life points in the early stages of the game is a resource that some landstill player often try to forget. Besides this, I hate stating post too: the nature (god or whichever you think is the cause of the universe, if you ever think the universe has a cause) gave us reasoning, so please let's use it! Landstill is based on the complicated interaction of a U part with a W part: basically, the golden rule is that in landstill you can remove all that you can't (or aren't able to) counter, and viceversa you shoul be able to counter all that you can't (or aren't able to) remove. You shouldn't have to fit a certain number of counters or removals just because someone told you so, but according to your playstyle and relating to other choices you made in your build. I myself prefer playing with a 4/2 split because: a) my manabase runs 7 basics, so I've got no early UU (and, as we discussed above, it's more important to reach WW than UU in the very first turns); b) I run a pack of 13 removals (7 spot and 5 mass, of which 4 are recurrable), so I keep counterspell for the mid-late game bombs and I love to have spell snare to keep my opponent's cheap threats away from the table, and keep the opponent himslef walking at my pace. Most of the nasty things we would avoid have cc2 (counterbalance, survival, DD, life, tarmo, chalice@1, confi, counterspell, etc.), so snare is THE counter for the early game. And since I ALWAYS want to see a spell snare in my opening hand or near, 4 copies it's for me the right number. Instead, I like to see counterspells in a more advanced state of game, so 2x is for me the right number. It's not a logic necessity that this split is better than 3/3. I think an approach as that of joel to the deck can work well with a 4/2 split, since the draw engine fairly supports the removal suite (which is lighter than mine), especially if you run sb tools like extirpate, negate, chant, or the like. Using correctly your removals may prove counterspells a little useless until midgame, but that's just opinion. I think joel shares this view as it runs a 4/2 split too (with clique instead of CS). And E tutor is a good sb card in that list, it may better be a crucible, another land, a path to exile, a disk...

ghusta can you clean this up and make clear and precise posts instead of making one big paragraph which becomes difficult to keep my add focused on

mossivo1986
06-10-2009, 05:17 PM
2) -1 Top
The card isn't bad( just not good in my meta) but you already have Enlightened Tutor too, so you already have 4 MD and you don't want to have 2 in your openinghand. But if you felt it was needed due to testing, go ahead.


You don't win many games do you? Just kidding with you. Top is very good, and if one could run top x4 in landstill you would. Its that good. Its the single most consistent win card that landstill has just under force of will.