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freakish777
04-20-2008, 09:58 PM
Before Legacy (then Type 1.5) got it's own Banned List, Mana Drain helped fuel one of the most absurd control decks in the format, pushing it to be able to beat both aggro decks and combo decks simultaneously, pre-board. Even with the ability to Drain into a Nev's Disk gone, many people found the archetype was still viable. The initial port of the deck from the previous format brought it's white splash with it, and this thread is dedicated to discussing, essentially, versions of Landstill that have stuck to a single splash color, opting for consistency over power (where as the originators of BHWC/BHWW Landstill opted for power).

An important note, is that this thread is not attempting to answer the question of "Which is better, power or consistency?" as (in my opinion) that is really more of a question of your metagame. Instead this thread assumes that there is a particular metagame for which a consistent build of Landstill is the correct choice and attempts to build from that.

For reference, the definition of power being used here is "The amount of the advancement of your strategy (or the amount of hinderance to your opponent's strategy) divided by the amount of 'work' required for that advancement (or hinderence)." Work, in most cases, is the cost of the spells you're playing, however it's extremely important to note here that it also involves any set up required to make those spells work or any other hidden costs (this is more relevant than it is elsewhere as Standstill needs to be set up and built around, Wastelanding your opponent has the cost of a land drop, Mishra's Factory has a continuous cost as well as a land drop cost, etc).

If you want more of a history lesson, I'm not going to reinvent the wheel here and I'll let Jander78 and Nightmare do the talking for me:

The 2005 Landstill Thread by Jander78 (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=625)
The 2007 Landstill Thread by Nightmare (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5449)


Commonly agreed upon card choices (for the White Splash)

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Counterspell
2 Standstill
1 Crucible of Worlds

4 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
4 Tundra


I'll assume that the reasoning behind these cards being a "must" in a white Landstill build is obvious, however if it isn't, feel free to ask the Adepts here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=40) as I'm sure their answer will be the most comprehensive.

Not commonly agreed upon card choices

0cc spells, and Land:

Additional Wasteland
Academy Ruins
Island
Plains
Polluted Delta
Ghost Quarter
Faerie Conclave
Tolaria West
Mutavault
Tormod's Crypt
Quicksand

1cc spells:

Sensei's Divining Top
Enlightened Tutor
Stifle
Spell Snare
Phyrexian Furnace (generally held that this is only playable in conjunction with Academy Ruins)
Ponder
Phyrexian Dreadnought (clearly only playable with Stifle)
Pithing Needle
Meekstone
Porphyry Nodes

2cc spells:

Addtional Standstills (generally held that 4 is the correct number if you don't have a way to tutor for it)
Additional Counterspell (generally held that 4 is the correct number if you aren't cramming your list)
Counterbalance
Rune Snag
Mana Leak
Hoofprints of the Stag
Seal of Cleansing/Disenchant
Daze
Trickbind (generally held that this is only playable with Dreadnought)

3cc spells:

Additional Crucible of Worlds (generally held that 2 is the correct number if you don't have a way to tutor for it)
Cunning Wish
Vedalken Shackles
Jace Beleren
Trinket Mage (clearly only playable with a host of tutor targets)
Ghostly Prison/Propaganda
Oblivion Stone
Oblivion Ring

4cc spells:

Fact or Fiction
Moat
Wrath of God
Humility
Control Magic
Nevinyrral's Disk

Other:

Eternal Dragon
Akroma's Vengeance
Engineered Explosives
Decree of Justice
Morphling
Meloku, the Clouded Mirror
Mindslaver


I have attempted to be as complete as possible in compiling the information that can mostly be found here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8090). I have intentionally left out cards that are red, black or green as those choices for Landstill builds are less popular (among 2 color builds), as well as sideboard choices. The amount of information presented at this point is substantial, so let's focus on what we want to get out of this thread:

For those on the consistency side of the dichotomy of Landstill, what are the most powerful cards and strategies we can run in just blue and one splash?

What is the largest acceptable number of colors (defined by the non-basic land hate available in Legacy and the fetchlands available to it)?

How can we optimize our power level without compromising our consistency (which colors can we add, and how big or small of a splash can it be without dicking ourselves)?

Do Tutors (in the form of Enlightened Tutor or Cunning Wish) and Silver Bullets (Moat, Counterbalance, etc) give us a dominant strategy (Zvi seems to think so as you can see here (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/15176.html)), or are the tutors themselves unplayable?

What's the most powerful win condition?



While answering all of those questions is something to be focused on, that last one is particularly disturbing to not have a consensus on (aside from Mishra's Factory) considering that as Magic theory develops, it is becoming quickly apparent that the notion of "It doesn't matter what you win with once the game is locked up" is incorrect. Is Stifling Phyrexian Dreadnought legitimately good, or is the work required for this strategy too much (we have to do here is to find a Stifle once we have found a Dreadnought, and the obvious 2 mana to cast it, the pay off is also obvious, and just as vulnerable as every other creature in the format to Swords to Plowshares). If not, do we have time to set up Meloku, Decree of Justice, Eternal Dragon or any other 5+ casting cost win condition, or is something like Hoofprints of the Stag a better option as it can slip in on turn 4 with Counter back up and has synergy with Standstill and Brainstorm? Is going to 6 or 8 manlands with Mutavault and Faerie Conclave better?

Discuss.

KillemallCFH
04-21-2008, 08:34 AM
Here is the current list I've been testing, somewhat metagamed, although I feel with some tweaks it could perform in most metas.

// NAME: UWr Landstill

// Lands
2 [U] Plains (1)
2 [U] Island (3)
1 [U] Plateau
1 [U] Volcanic Island
4 [U] Tundra
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
1 [TE] Wasteland
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [FUT] Tolaria West

// Creatures
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon
3 [LRW] Jace Beleren

// Spells
3 [LRW] Hoofprints of the Stag
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
4 [U] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [U] Wrath of God
4 [U] Swords to Plowshares
2 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
2 [SC] Stifle
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Standstill

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [DM] Pyroclasm
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [U] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [U] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
Some things that have come up:
EE + Academy Ruins is very powerful. However, it also has dissynergy with all the permanents I run (Hoofprints especially, as EE @ 2 is a common play). I could clean up my manabase a bit and fit in more Wastes if I cut the EE/Ruins package (-2 EE, -1 Ruins, +1 WoG, +2 Waste, maybe?). I'm not sure which is better.

Jace vs FoF: I've tested both, and even had a split at one point, and I'm definitely going in favor of Jace here. Continuous CA has been much better than one-shot. I recently had 3 Jace/2 FoF but cut the FoFs for utility in Stifle. I could go back to FoFs though, or another card, as I'm not completely sold on Stifles usefulness.

Regarding the SB: My meta has a lot of blue (Thresh and Dreadstill, mostly), as well as a decent amount of Goblins, hence REB and Pyroclasm, respectively. I'm not at all sold on the Shackles in the SB, and they could easily be anything else (esp. since they do not effect Dreadnought, who is a presence in my meta).

I'd write more, but I'm on my way out. Let the discussions begin.

Ironstickman
04-21-2008, 08:43 AM
It is nice to have a thread dedicated to Uw /x landstill exclusively.

To develop the thread I will start posting a uw decklist and discuss some of the points freakish777 has made.
It will probalby look strange at first since it is quite different from the traditional builds, however i will explain how de deck answers the metagame:

23 lands

4 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
4 tundra
4 Mishra's factory
4 Wasteland
2 Island
1 Academy ruins
2 plains

37 spells

4 FoW
4 Swords to the plowshares
4 Brainstorm
2 Wrath of god
3 Enlightened tutor
2 Sensei diving top
3 Stifle
3 Daze:rolleyes:
3 Counterbalance
4 Standstill
1 Crucible worlds
1 Powder keg
2 Hoofprints of the stag
1 Jace beleren

sideboard

3 Hydroblast
2 pulse of the fields
1 E.flux
1 Cop red
1 Cop green
3 Spell snare
2 Exalted angel
1 Tormod' Crypt
1 E.explosives

Yes daze in landstill. It was not played in other buils since it had high mana win conditions and sweepers and it was antisynergistic. However when mana costs are reduced and win conditions or sweepers no longer cost 5+ it becomes a useful piece of disrution (if you add mana denial in the form of stifle +wasteland it becomes quite powerful aswell). It works great with top (look and draw) and the opponent will not think you are playing it.

As for the win condition the tribal enchantment will provide you 4/4 flying elementals that can handle almost any creature of the format (except goyf or stalker). It`s synergy with brainstorm/landstill/Jace is worth trying it.

For the counterbalance disruption i dont need to add anything more that hasn't been said on the previous landstill thread save perhaps that you might not wan`t to reveal daze with counterbalance but if you do, that 'll mean that you are already winning. plus the mana costs have been improved with this addition:

1 CMC ; 16
2 CMC ; 12
3 CMC ; 2


On the sideboard, exalted angel as an alternative win con. (if you believe the oponent will needle your tribal enchantment), standard wishboard and utility against goblins,burn and threshold (blast,pulse, s.snare)

just a note on powder keg over explosives since it doesnt break our enchantments.

Matchups:

Goblins- stop that vial! preboard : slightly unfavourable (counterbalance is not very useful if the goblin player has developed)

post board: slightly favourable watch for krosan grips if the opponent plays taigas

Key cards: Daze, Fow ,Stp

threshold Ugr and Ugw preboard favorable. attack their manabase. basically they have the same disruption as you have, but you can create a lock quicker

postboard (depends on hoy many needles and krosan grips come in, the matchup becomes slightly unfavorable, if they have seen the dazes, the spell snares might come in for them)

key cards wasteland,stifle and counterbalance-top

Other lanstill ( you control the tempo of the game but i haven't tested thorughfly

Big mana
Faerie stompy. hard matchup. daze really helps early game This is a really played deck in my meta and i'm thinking of running control magic instead of crucible
Dragon stompy. Fortunately the deck plays 4 basic lands which must be looked for directly. wasteland + daze is often tough for them

Burn Counterbalance + top =win

Combo (Iggy-Belcher)
Every piece of disruption helps, keg for tokens, stifle for storm + daze and Fow is too much (belcher is easier)

Loam. the counterbalance works well for me , stoping recurring loams and other menaces. If you are able to answer their goyfs you musn`t worry to much

Sui black, eva green, decks with a lot of potential, usually depends on the hands you draw. spell snare is brilliant post board

Well if i have time i will add other matchups afterwards. In the meantime it will be nice to see some big mana Uw builds or Uw/x cunning standstill's

If you have any suggestions / opinions I'll be glad to hear them

For more information on the UW counterbalance build take a look at the other landstill thread

Ch@os
04-21-2008, 08:56 AM
Hm... i play those UW builds for years now and this build is inconsequent.

DAZE!?!! in a controlldeck? Powder Keg over EE?
This list looks like an white NQG without Goofy's

Whats about Moat to safe Jace, push Hoofprints & force your opponent to destroy Moat instead of Hoofprints.
Or Humility, and replace Hoofprints with DoJ.
I understand that you want to lower the manacurve but thats not the way to go for LS.

Mental
04-21-2008, 11:30 AM
For those on the consistency side of the dichotomy of Landstill, what are the most powerful cards and strategies we can run in just blue and one splash?
If we assume that one splash is White, which is probably correct, the most powerful cards are Swords to Plowshares, Hoofprints of the Stag, Humility and Porphyry Nodes. The first is the default best removal spell in the game, no one's arguing that. Hoofprints is an extremely solid long term wincon that, while vulnerable to Grip, is something that generally has to be dealt with by an opponent for them to be able to win the game, assuming your deck works and you stall out for a long time. Humility makes that stalling happen, though I can't say I'd run it and Hoofprints in the same list. It's raw power is undeniable, however, 4CC isn't cheap and it is vulnerable to a lot of hate cards. Most aggro decks are prepared for it post board. Porphyry Nodes is the last card I want to bring up. It's extremely strong against Threshold, punishing a player for overextending, though in general it just takes down a single Mongoose and dies. That's not at all bad for 1CC, though.
Cards not on this list are Wrath of God - Slow, and not very strong against Threshold or Goblins (against Thresh it will at most hit one creature, against Goblins it will hit more, but it won't stop their CA engine); Moat (The card should be broken, but I just can't make it work); Enlightened Tutor (Card Disadvantage in Landstill. I guess it isn't bad in the right build, but I dislike it).
Cards that for me, are borderline, include Decree of Justice and Eternal Dragon - They're strong, I just never have room for them.


What is the largest acceptable number of colors (defined by the non-basic land hate available in Legacy and the fetchlands available to it)?
3 Seems to work. Maybe 4 does again with the decline of Dragon Stompy, but I'm not about to play that in a tournament. Light splashes are usually stronger than heavy splashes, as black generally just gives you tools out of the wishboard, or Vindicate, and Green gives you Tarmogoyf and Grip in the board. However, I'm playing straight UW right now, because of it's resilience to all forms of hate, and it's consistency.


How can we optimize our power level without compromising our consistency (which colors can we add, and how big or small of a splash can it be without dicking ourselves)?
Standstill is an incredibly inconsistent card. I go back and forth between playing it and Ponder. Neither is ever amazing, but you know what is? Meditate. Late game, if you can stabilize at all, it's strong, and even if you can't, it digs for answers/a counterspell in a way Landstill usually can't. It is conditional, but highly less so than Standstill.
Here's the conditions of Meditate:
-Opponent isn't going to do something ridiculous given another turn, meaning, they don't have a huge army down, and they aren't going to be able to do something insane if you tap out (which shouldn't be happening anyways).
And Standstill:
-Opponent's army isn't bigger than the amount of Mishra's Factories in your hand/that you know you're going to draw.
-Opponent has no way to cheat cards into play.
-Opponent isn't playing manlands.
-Opponent isn't playing a deck that wants a lot of time to set up, and once it has, will generate for CA then you (MUC).
I know that doesn't really answer the question but I wanted to put it out there.


Do Tutors (in the form of Enlightened Tutor or Cunning Wish) and Silver Bullets (Moat, Counterbalance, etc) give us a dominant strategy (Zvi seems to think so as you can see here (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/15176.html)), or are the tutors themselves unplayable?
I disagree with Zvi on this issue. Enlightened Tutor isn't a good card in Landstill because it fetches silver bullets, effectively turning the deck into Enchantress - My deck sucks but I have five cards that will WRECK you. Decks like that don't work very well, in my experience. Cunning Wish, on the other hand, lets you store the toolbox where it won't cause clogging. I tend not to run more than 4 wish targets in my SB, because I like plenty of room for things that I can bring in, however, Cunning Wish is a strong and versatile answer in a way Enlightened Tutor is not. Also, it doesn't create Card Disadvantage.


What's the most powerful win condition?
Tarmogoyf, if you spash green. If you don't, probably Hoofprints of the Stag. I don't like Mutavault in this deck because I'd have to use of nonland slots for it - I don't want to run more colorless mana then I have to. Hoofprints is very hard to deal with and wins you the long game. It's also ridiculous under a Standstill - though, most opponents break Standstill immediately regardless.

Illissius
04-21-2008, 11:36 AM
There's two cards from Shadowmoor which I think are extremely promising for this deck (and for White-based control in general, in the first case).

1) Runed Halo. Just wow. The following is an illustrative list of some of the things Runed Halo stops:
- Tarmogoyf
- Nimble Mongoose
- Morphling
- Rainbow Efreet
- Darksteel Colossus
- Tendrils of Agony
- Brain Freeze
- Goblin Charbelcher
- Sutured Ghoul
- most of the infinitely many Kiki-Jiki combos
- Lightning Bolt
- Price of Progress
- Cursed Scroll
- Mishra's Factory
- Goblin Lackey
- Arc-Slogger
- Trygon Predator (heh)
- Ichorid
- Cabal Therapy
- Orim's Chant
- Intuition

And here's what Runed Halo, as far as I know, unfortunately does not stop:
- Empty the Warrens
- Bridge from Below
- Dark Confidant
- Magus of the Moon
- Meddling Mage
- Gaddock Teeg
- anything attacking Jace

Think of it as creature removal which just happens to also be awesome against combo and a lot of other things. As creature removal, it has both advantages and drawbacks: it trivially deals with things like Nimble Mongoose or Ichorid, and doesn't care how many there are, but doesn't physically remove anything, so creatures can still block and use abilities; also, Krosan Grip is a pain in the ass. Hence, I shall call it Mini-Moat. I think Mini-Moat and Swords to Plowshares complement each other nicely.

2) Fracturing Gust. This is the best Disenchant effect for the Cunning Wishboard in approximately forever. It's a shame they had to give it to us in the same set as Mini-Moat. Decks with Mini-Moat, Moat, Humility, Counterbalance, or whatever, will have to choose between running Gust, targetted removal, or both.

Ironstickman
04-21-2008, 12:16 PM
Hm... i play those UW builds for years now and this build is inconsequent.

DAZE!?!! in a controlldeck? Powder Keg over EE?
This list looks like an white NQG without Goofy's

Whats about Moat to safe Jace, push Hoofprints & force your opponent to destroy Moat instead of Hoofprints.
Or Humility, and replace Hoofprints with DoJ.
I understand that you want to lower the manacurve but thats not the way to go for LS.

Possibly.
the whole point of lowering the mana curve is to lower the amount of lands enabling you to play counterbalance (a very powerful card in the format). I really understand your scepticism about daze (which i shared at first) but think that it is something that the opponent will not forsee in a landstill build. Since you dont have excesively high costs (2 wrath plus possible moat), land drops are not as essential now (they really aren't with your new costs)therefore you can make use of daze, Think for example in this common situation: you have casted a standstill in your second turn with a factory on board and opponent will usually break it casting a key spell (tarmo?), if you do not draw force you may not be able to answer it. (If you draw stp you will have to invest mana anyway next turn). Daze will definitely give you the tranquility in the early game whereas drawing the counterspell of the usual builds would not have helped at all. It is crap in the later game, but then you will have set up your counterbalance lock and you will have the 2 mcost spell
I believe this card will create much discussion and I agree that it is not a card for usual LS decks. But the metagame is full of tight manabases (from threshold to dragon stompy, decent card against goblins aswell) and the possibility of playing daze unforseen is something worth trying e.g you know a thresh player is playing daze, --you play prepared for it.
Yes perhaps this cards changes significantly the deck's filosophy, but it helps adapt the deck to such a quick metagame where the first turns are critical for the development of the game.
Just consider aswell that you might cast daze directly. 2º game you can put in spell snares instead and they will do the job when dazes are no longer a surprise to your opponent. (well of course depends on which matchup)
Originally, the idea of playing daze was to answer decks like dragon stompy and faerie stompy, where FoW is often not enough to counter their key spells.

Nevertheless, I need to test it further to have total certainty of the inclusion

I see that Moat should be included as you say to protect jace and to improve the hoofprints. Perhaps instead of the crucible slot which i have found not to be effective enough.
about the powder keg: explosives breaks your enchantments while keg doesnt. Anyway explosives is more effective against goyf and suits better when it comes to mathcups like enchantress or survival. The thing is that the single keg is there to take care of tokens ,chrome moxes, mox diamond and chalices and both of them do it alike but it will probably switch places with the sideboard explosives

In conclusion, landstill is not a control deck in the same sense as MUC , it is a combination of card advantage mechanism with effective control elements. A free countermagic such as Daze should not be discarded right away furthermore when you have the surprise factor on your side and the structure of the deck allows you to test it.

I will comment more on the card next weekend if i have time to test.

Mictlantecuhtli
04-21-2008, 12:29 PM
@ Mental: I agree with almost everything you say. However, i do think that Enlightened Tutor has its merits. I ran E.Tutors for some time in a UW build which was already running CounterTop, Hoofprints and Landstill. The Tutors main functions were to help assemble CounterTop asap, which would turn subsequent tutors into hard counters if your top three cards weren't the right casting cost. Apart from that, Tutors would just fetch Landstills, Hoofprints, EE or Crucible when needed as i didn't really stuff the deck with silverbullets (i seem to remember the only one-off was a Moat) in order not to compromise consistency. So it basically gave me what i needed when i needed it.

I unfortunately don't remember the exact build as it changed often. I am also not advocating Enlightened Tutor is the way to go for UW Landstill, but it certainly didn't crappify the deck. The only trade-off i can remember was the blue-spell count could have been greater if the tutors weren't there. The card disadvantage was reasonably dealt with with Jace.

Mental
04-21-2008, 01:16 PM
I also don't like Jace in UW landstill. The card isn't bad persay, it's just that decking is an incredibly inefficient way to win the game (and slow) and Jace is really vulnerable. The fact that you suddenly can't let any creatures through really hinders your strategy and forces you to play cards like Moat. However, I can see ETutor being alright in a CounterTop build.

Mister Agent
04-21-2008, 03:33 PM
Here is my version of UW landstill I have been testing.

UW landstill
By Kevin Liu

// Lands
3 [6E] Plains (1)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
3 [PT] Island (4)
1 [10E] Faerie Conclave
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [TE] Wasteland
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
4 [B] Tundra

// Creatures
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
3 [SC] Stifle
1 [TE] Humility
4 [7E] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [OD] Standstill
3 [U] Wrath of God
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [TE] Propaganda
2 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
2 [IN] Fact or Fiction
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TE] Humility
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [A] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 2 [IN] Dismantling Blow
SB: 3 [CH] Tormod's Crypt

Card Choices

Stifle and wasteland: I always liked this disruption tempo package in UW landstill. Considering it does not really stretch on the manabase since it is two colors. Stifle is also good at stopping an wide range of things from goblin ringleader to tendrils of agony.

Propoganda: This is probably an metagame call slot really. I like propoganda though since it is briliant against ichorid and it isn't as mana extensive as moat.

Dismantling blow: An good card against opposing counterbalance and acts as an psuodo-standstill as well.

Humility: This card is obvious considering it can dismantle threshold, survival, goblins and etc.

Decree of justice: I always liked decree of justice as a late game finisher in any landstill deck really.

Tormod's Crypt: Good against loam decks especially supplemented with wastelands. Also an fairly good card against other grave-yard based decks.

Pulse of the fields: One of my all-time favorite cards and can be brilliant in any threshold matchup.

This deck doesn't really give any advantages of playing it over DIF's uwb landstill though.

This is the case for a few reasons:

1. Cunning wish is a great utility card in quite a few situations in the current environment. Considering of how cunning wish functions it can turn clunkiness into usefulness.

2.Extirpate is a much better all-around card then tormod's crypt and still can essentially function the same way as crypt as well.

3.The ability to fetch for pulse of the fields via cunning wish as opposed to boarding a pair of fields is much more efficient.

4.Slaughter pact is a great stabalizer against threshold especially since you can fetch for it with cunning wish and can take care of removal disablers such as meddling mage or gaddock teeg.

from Cairo
04-21-2008, 09:06 PM
For those on the consistency side of the dichotomy of Landstill, what are the most powerful cards and strategies we can run in just blue and one splash?

Most powerful cards:

Brainstorm
Force of Will
Humility
Engineered Explosives
Crucible of Worlds

Most powerful strategies:

Brainstorm + Fetch... Legacy's Ancestral Recall. Countermagic in general answering whatever bombs would otherwise be game winning. Humility + Manlands, this combination is overpowering, it forces the opponent to over extend or hold back; the former walks right into Wraths or Decrees, the latter means your progressing further into the late game without pressure from your opponent, you have inevitability. It offers more than similar enchantments, namely Moat because versus things like Survival or Goblins preboard, it is just a win, as so much of their Creatures' power is dependent on abilities not just turning sideways. Engineered Explosives in general is huge, it answers so many problems without being a dead card in matches. All too often sweepers are too slow against combo, EE isn't- dealing with EtW Goblins and BfB Zombies. Problem enchantments, Moon effects and Counterbalance- with Island, Plains, non-basic can be EE@3; EE can also get large CMC, through paying XUW for an EE@2. It means you aren't wasting slots on Disenchants in matches where they suck, and you aren't wasting space on more Wrath effects in matches where they suck. Crucible is just back breaking against so many decks, it means you're making every land drop for starters which is exactly what control needs, but additionally you have access to unlimited chumps, or Wastelock, etc.


What is the largest acceptable number of colors (defined by the non-basic land hate available in Legacy and the fetchlands available to it)?

I haven't seen any successful lists running 5 color, so I guess the largest acceptable is 4, though UWx seems to be have similar match ups as the 4 color variants, which is to say it doesn't seem like overwhelming amounts are gained by adding the 4th color. Green and Red really don't seem to contribute much to the deck as far as furthering its game plan. Pernicious Deed is really the only card that jumps out as being really missed, but EE does alot toward making it an acceptable loss.


How can we optimize our power level without compromising our consistency (which colors can we add, and how big or small of a splash can it be without dicking ourselves)?

It really depends, if you want to be able to run a list that can play around Bloodmoon effects and thus be basic heavy, I don't think the 3rd color splash can really be for more than 3 duals, and single colored mana cards. If you are already invested in Blue with UU and White with WW, then you really start to spread yourself pretty thin/non-basic dependent by going for XX (BB, GG, or RR) cc cards as well.

If you don't mind cutting some utility lands (Ruins, Wastes, Tolaria West) or some basics, then you could probably splash 3-4 duals and an additional fetch or two. And thus maybe be able to support double colored mana in your 3rd splash, I really don't see a ton to be gained in this though.


Do Tutors (in the form of Enlightened Tutor or Cunning Wish) and Silver Bullets (Moat, Counterbalance, etc) give us a dominant strategy (Zvi seems to think so as you can see here (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/15176.html)), or are the tutors themselves unplayable?

I couldn't put it better than Mental just did..

I disagree with Zvi on this issue. Enlightened Tutor isn't a good card in Landstill because it fetches silver bullets, effectively turning the deck into Enchantress - My deck sucks but I have five cards that will WRECK you. Decks like that don't work very well, in my experience. Cunning Wish, on the other hand, lets you store the toolbox where it won't cause clogging. I tend not to run more than 4 wish targets in my SB, because I like plenty of room for things that I can bring in, however, Cunning Wish is a strong and versatile answer in a way Enlightened Tutor is not. Also, it doesn't create Card Disadvantage.


What's the most powerful win condition?

Mishra's Factory, due to it's synergies with already mentioned cards/strats (Crucible, Humility, Wrath of God, wanting to play alot of land). Secondly I would say Decree in Humility builds, outside Humility builds, probably Hoofprints, Eternal Dragon and, though I find it overkill, there is no denying that Goyf is a powerful win condition.

thefreakaccident
04-21-2008, 09:38 PM
Well, since this is the thread for the deck, it must be posted:

lands//24
2 island
2 plains
1 scrubland
2 underground sea
4 tundra
4 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
4 mishra's factory
1 tolaria west
1 academy ruins
1 wasteland

creatures//1
1 eternal dragon

permisson//8
4 force of will
4 counterspell

Control//12
4 swords to plowshares
3 wrath of god
2 humility
3 engineered explosives

CA//13
4 brainstorm
4 standstill
3 cunning wish
2 crucible of worlds

Strict wincons//2
2 decree of justice

sideboard//
1 dust to dust
1 enlightened tutor
1 slaughter pact
1 pulse of the fields
3 extirpate
4 meddling mage
4 engineered plague


I honestly think that this deck is close to unbeatable with a competent pilot, at least in a known metagame.

from Cairo
04-21-2008, 09:46 PM
A few side points that didn't really fall into the reply to Freakish777's OP...


Jace vs FoF: I've tested both, and even had a split at one point, and I'm definitely going in favor of Jace here. Continuous CA has been much better than one-shot. I recently had 3 Jace/2 FoF but cut the FoFs for utility in Stifle. I could go back to FoFs though, or another card, as I'm not completely sold on Stifles usefulness.

Agreed Jace > FoF, but I'm still not really sold on its inclusion in UWx. In UBG there is always Deed, so its very possible to EOT pop Deed the board clear, then drop a Jace, pretty much ensuring that you will get to draw 2 cards before your opponent can attack it. In UWx you'd need to main phase both a WoG and the Jace in order to accomplish the same thing.

Personally for UWx, I feel like Cunning Wish > Jace > FoF. I would rather be spending 3 mana to get the solution card I need than to draw 1 and soak up some inc damage.

In any situation where there is no pressing assault or disruption that needs to be answered, clearly the raw drawing power of Jace or building up to the huge mill would be stronger than sitting on a Cunning Wish, but really if you're in a position where you don't need to find an answer than you're already in ok shape and Jace really just secures the W even more so.


2) Fracturing Gust. This is the best Disenchant effect for the Cunning Wishboard in approximately forever. It's a shame they had to give it to us in the same set as Mini-Moat. Decks with Mini-Moat, Moat, Humility, Counterbalance, or whatever, will have to choose between running Gust, targetted removal, or both.

This card does not seem good (enough). Other than against Enchantress or Staxx I really can't think of many decks where there are multiple Enchantments/Artifacts on the table that need to be eliminated. Against Staxx if they have mulitple artifacts on the board there is a very good chance you don't have 2WWW available anyway. The only DTB that really seems like it might have enough valid targets to warrant it is Dragon Stompy, but again with Moon the question of having the right mana comes up, additionally Engineered Explosives helps to deal with Chalices, it really just leaves Equipment to worry about, which can be countered or single targeted.

The lack of need along with the obvious dis-synergy between Fracturing Gust and your own Artifacts and Enchantments: Crucible, EE, Humility/Moat, Hoofprints, Runed Halo, Countertop, etc, it just seems like it won't be better than Return to Dust / Dismantilling Blow very often, and if it means you'd have to sacrifice anything of yours than it will be very much worse.

freakish777
04-21-2008, 10:24 PM
Mishra's Factory

For reference I meant outside Mishra's Factory.

Can we get any of the Dreadstill players to comment perhaps?

Also, my personal testing points to Vedalken Shackles being much better than most people think. Untapping with it in play usually is "GG" for opposing aggro decks as you're suddenly stealing creatures to chump/trade with, or using their creatures as win conditions. Obviously there's two issues with it, one being combo decks (but that's so for all creature answers) and the other being that it generally replaces something like Wrath or Humility, and that can make dealing with a large early Goyf when you can't find Swords (or a Goose to a lesser extent since you usually trade a Factory with Goose) that you otherwise be able to a little worse.

It seems most of you like Hoofprints. While I like the card, I have some doubts about it. Particularly the "Play this ability only during your turn" clause. This essentially makes it no better than any other beater that you have to play in your turn, and then still have counter mana up (granted you can do it under Standstill), but this was the big selling point for me for playing Decree of Justice in the deck when the formats first split as opposed to Dragon as it was instant speed. I really wish there were an easy way to circumvent Bitterblossom's drawback, as an effect like that would be ideal.

Another thing I'd like to bring up is the Wastelock strategy. Is it still relevant? Goyf and combo decks have sped up the fundemental turn in Legacy and with cards such as SDT, Hoofprints, Academy Ruins, Dragon & Factory wanting mana each turn, can we justify a strategy that might take 4 turns to accomplish, might not work (opponent's with singleton basics, this is why I have Ghost Quarter on the list, I've been running it as a 1-of), and over those 4 turns keeps us low on mana ourselves?

Lastly, without Deed and the recent errata, is it worthwhile to play Mox Diamond or do we not run enough lands or not want acceleration enough to cut other slots? Personally a first turn Counterbalance/Standstill/Counterspell seems extremely good provided you can find 3 or 4 cards to cut.


Coming back to Crucible + Waste, Goyf gives us an incredible incentive to run Green. Is it worthwhile to try and fit in Explorations if you do?


Something I'd like to address, by my definition of Power, Cunning Wish is not powerful. Your Extirpate now costs :2::u::b: instead of :b:. It's understandable you wouldn't ever want to run it in the main, thus the correct term is that Cunning Wish gives your build a much larger amount of versatility. If you want to call the responsiveness that Cunning Wish gives you "powerful," I don't really care, I just want to point out that I won't as it doesn't fit into my definition of Power, and I think having distinct definitions is important. (The exception here is if you use it like Aggro Loam uses Burning Wish to increase the Loam count to 7, as breaking the "Rule of 4" is powerful, the first Burning Wish for Loam is powerful, every one after that for some other spell that isn't a 3 of in the main instead fills the versatile role)


For those choosing not to run Counterbalance + Top, why? It screams power with the ability to counter 1, 2, 3, 5, and potentially 4 as well (see Gearheart's "It's the Fear" report -> "I got Counterbalance and won because Counterbalance is dumb", not to mention we don't have the issue of Deed blowing it up, though EE might) in these lists. For 2 mana, there's little else that can hinder the opponent's strategy like Counterbalance does.

from Cairo
04-21-2008, 11:00 PM
I meant outside Mishra's Factory.


I would say Decree of Justice is the next most synergistic. Allowing mana to stay open for counters, being uncounterable, and being a threat under a Standstill.


Another thing I'd like to bring up is the Wastelock strategy. Is it still relevant? Goyf and combo decks have sped up the fundemental turn in Legacy and with cards such as SDT, Hoofprints, Academy Ruins, Dragon & Factory wanting mana each turn, can we justify a strategy that might take 4 turns to accomplish, might not work (opponent's with singleton basics, this is why I have Ghost Quarter on the list, I've been running it as a 1-of), and over those 4 turns keeps us low on mana ourselves?

It's not what it once was, for the reasons you state, that the format is faster, but when it comes to shoring up the game it can definitely be a nail in the coffin. It doesn't really force you to run anything you wouldn't be playing anyway so I see it as a no loss, potential gain situation. If you are at 3-4 mana and have the Crucible in play it is very justifiable to recur Wasteland as long as there is an opposing target for it. Even just shutting them off one splash color could be huge and set them back quite a bit with dead cards in hand, then develop your manabase a bit more and resume the shenanigans.

Clearly if they are beating your face with guys and you need more mana to cast an answer putting off the Wastelock for a couple turns would be a good move, but as soon as there isn't an immediate threat you could resume it.


Lastly, without Deed and the recent errata, is it worthwhile to play Mox Diamond or do we not run enough lands or not want acceleration enough to cut other slots? Personally a first turn Counterbalance/Standstill/Counterspell seems extremely good provided you can find 3 or 4 cards to cut.

Coming back to Crucible + Waste, Goyf gives us an incredible incentive to run Green. Is it worthwhile to try and fit in Explorations if you do?


Mox Diamond seems better than Exploration, given that it leaves you with 2 untapped mana turn 1. Exploration really only seems stronger if you have Crucible out. Honestly, I don't think either would be great though, they are both going to be pretty awful when you are digging for an answer to an impending threat and both lose alot of power in the late game. In a deck that is trying to abuse the late game, I don't think Mox Diamond's tempo oriented card disadvantage makes sense.

KillemallCFH
04-22-2008, 04:42 AM
It's not what it once was, for the reasons you state, that the format is faster, but when it comes to shoring up the game it can definitely be a nail in the coffin. It doesn't really force you to run anything you wouldn't be playing anyway so I see it as a no loss, potential gain situation. If you are at 3-4 mana and have the Crucible in play it is very justifiable to recur Wasteland as long as there is an opposing target for it. Even just shutting them off one splash color could be huge and set them back quite a bit with dead cards in hand, then develop your manabase a bit more and resume the shenanigans.I completely agree on this one. Even if they didn't have synergy, Waste and Crucible are strong enough to play on their own, and their ability to end games against decks not prepared to fight non-basic hate is a huge plus on their side. (Note my list is now running 3 Wastes.)

Mox Diamond seems better than Exploration, given that it leaves you with 2 untapped mana turn 1. Exploration really only seems stronger if you have Crucible out. Honestly, I don't think either would be great though, they are both going to be pretty awful when you are digging for an answer to an impending threat and both lose alot of power in the late game. In a deck that is trying to abuse the late game, I don't think Mox Diamond's tempo oriented card disadvantage makes sense.I agree that Exploration seems very poor, and a waste of a slot in Landstill. Regarding Mox Diamond, I had been testing it as a 1-of that could be found with Tolaria West, mostly to be played if I expected a Moon/B2B as well as a way to ramp EE up to 4 if necessary. It was also nice having it in my opener and being able to drop first turn Standstill or have first turn Counterspell mana. I ended up cutting it, but as a 1-of, it wasn't bad. Any more than that though, I agree, does not make sense.

Agreed Jace > FoF, but I'm still not really sold on its inclusion in UWx. In UBG there is always Deed, so its very possible to EOT pop Deed the board clear, then drop a Jace, pretty much ensuring that you will get to draw 2 cards before your opponent can attack it. In UWx you'd need to main phase both a WoG and the Jace in order to accomplish the same thing.I agree that it is not as effective in UWx as in UGBx, but I still feel it is powerful enough to warrant inclusion (especially alongside Hoofprints). I've never seemed to have a great deal of trouble controlling the board and allowing Jace to enter play. I have 4 StPs, 4 Factories (chumps), 2 WoGs, and 2 EEs, alongside 8 counterspells that will simply prevent creatures from coming into play to begin with. I see the arguments against him, because when you are in a tight situation he isn't great, but in similar situations, Cunning Wish isn't that much better. I suppose if, for instance, you're staring down 2 Goyfs, Cunning Wish -> Slaughter Pact is certainly more solid than 1UU: Draw a card, prevent the next Goyf damage that would be dealt to you, but if you are, for instance, staring down a horde of Gobs, both are pretty bad.

A couple other things to note about Jace. (a) He is an absolute bomb against control, moreso than Cunning Wish or FoF. (b) He makes for a very good draw in topdeck mode. This actually came up yesterday: I use all my resources killing/preventing their threats and we both go into topdeck mode. I topdeck the Jace, start creating CA, and eventually win. I suppose Cunning Wish -> Enlightened Tutor -> Humilty/Crucible would also be solid, but slightly less so. (Note I'm not at all trying to make Cunning Wish out to be anywhere near bad. It very well could be the better choice, but from my testing I just feel Jace slightly gets the nod over it.)

I'd also very much like to get some feedback on the red splash. I know people in the last thread were touting UWR as the worst possible color combination for Landstill, but my list is completely different from the ones described in that I opt to splash red purely for SB options. In the meta described (or, @ from Cairo, in our meta), do you think the red splash has merit? Should I opt to play a more stable straight UW list and just play CoP: Red to shore up my Gobbo matchup (which also helps the Burn/Goyf Slight matchup)? Should I go with UWb instead, using EPlauge, and also having access to Extirpate (while losing access to REB)? I really feel the red splash is indeed powerful and can perform as well if not better than the other splashes, but I am open to suggestion.

(Also note I've made some slight changes to my list. I opted to cut EE/Ruins, since I rarely ever set that combo up [and when I did, it was completely win-more], and EE on its own presented too much dissynergy with my somewhat permanent-heavy list [Jace, Hoofprints, Crucible]. Currently testing -2 EE, -1 DoJ, -1 Ruins, -1 Tolaria West, +1 WoG, +1 Oblivion Ring [which I am loving thus far], +2 Waste, +1 Island.)

diffy
04-22-2008, 11:51 AM
For those choosing not to run Counterbalance + Top, why? It screams power with the ability to counter 1, 2, 3, 5, and potentially 4 as well (see Gearheart's "It's the Fear" report -> "I got Counterbalance and won because Counterbalance is dumb"

Problems with CounterTop in the more traditional UW Landstill core:

You are the control deck. Therefore, you play a significant amount of lands making Counterbalance worse blind and with Top. Even if you tweak the build to incorporate the Balance package (aka lower the curve, cut lands), you still have to play 21-23 lands.
You can't play sweepers like Pernicious Deed in here. Your sweeper costs 4. Sadly 4 is a cost that might as well be a blank for Counterbalance as you only want to counter stuff with converted mana costs of 1 and 2 with the occasional 3.
Counterbalance is much more effective if being used as a tempo card or with other denial to accompany it (Meddling Mage, Pithing Needle etc.). You can't take advantage of the tempo you gain from it making it less strong (it is not unbreakable and if you give your opponent enough time, he'll eventually find a solution or just overpower you. Humility, for comparison sake, dies to the same things but actually is a hard lock once on the board).
Counterbalance requires double blue mana and wants a lot of free mana in the opponent's turn. Factories (and other colorless sources) are not a combo with either one of these issues.
By playing Counterbalance, you open yourself to other Counterbalances and with the amounts of Thresh in the meta, you don't want to lower your matchup percentages against them, not even from 'close to bye' to 'still pretty good'I used to be totally opposed to playing CounterTop in control. I'm not any more (see the double Team SPOD top8 (http://www.magic-speyer.de/showthread.php?tid=99&pid=772#pid772) with The Fear), but you have to design the deck with the abuse of said engine in mind. These changes can be done to Landstill (see Bardo's Ubg Vorosh Control (http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=24605)) but said engine can be implemented into other cores much more efficiently and doesn't add a lot to Landstill's strategy in general. For sure it makes the Aggro Control matchup better (if you stick it), but you win that already in 90% of the cases. It makes the (storm) combo matchup better... which no-one plays and which isn't that challenging (I have yet to loose a sanctioned match to storm combo with UWb Landstill) in the first place etc.



not to mention we don't have the issue of Deed blowing it up, though EE might) in these lists


In designing something, this should never be an issue: if you have CounterTop working, chances are good that you won't need to use Pernicious Deed / Engineered Explosives. If you do have to use it, you're in such a bad shape that the additional card advantage (CA) -1 won't make itself felt that much or you're making enough CA out of the Pernicious Deed that despite CA-1 you're still more than breaking even.



Personally for UWx, I feel like Cunning Wish > Jace > FoF.
In any situation where there is no pressing assault or disruption that needs to be answered, clearly the raw drawing power of Jace or building up to the huge mill would be stronger than sitting on a Cunning Wish, but really if you're in a position where you don't need to find an answer than you're already in ok shape and Jace really just secures the W even more so.


I don't buy all this hype on Jace. He's a bad draw spell as he doesn't find you the solutions when you need them (now!), he's a bad winconditon as he lets your opponent draw into more threats and he's bad on the mana. It is also never wise to give your opponent the possibility/choice to shut you off from your card advantage only via attacking/burning. On top of all that, you want to play Jace early for him to be good, but early, you'd just do so many things rather than playing him (keeping mana open for permission, clearing the board etc.). In the control matchups, I'd still rather have a Cunning Wish (Extirpate is key here) or a Fact or Fiction: you certainly don't want to be spending resources on constantly protecting your card advantage engine against otherwise ignorable cards: creatures... even the control decks tend to pack attackers to get rid of your Jace (Tarmogoyf in Rock, Mishra's Factories, Exalted Angel in Stax, Mishra's Factories, DoJ tokkens in other Landstill etc.).
Fact or Fiction at least digs for 5 cards deep to find you a solution or to create card advantage - at instant speed.
Also, Cunning Wish is not bad at all in stalemates or on a neutral board position: he just enforces your win via getting Enlightened Tutor for Humility or enforces your control of the situation via getting Enlightened Tutor for Standstill or Crucible of Worlds.


Vedalken Shackles

I don't find this good enough for Landstill: it is an unreliable and slow removal, especially against Tarmogoyfs which is just incaceptable - especially since the card is competing with stuff like Wrath of God and Humility for the same slot.


I really wish there were an easy way to circumvent Bitterblossom's drawback, as an effect like that would be ideal.


Pulse of the Fields (http://magiccards.info/ds/en/11.html)?

But really, I don't see why you would want to play Bitterblossom:

It makes you fetch black early making your manabase more vulnerable.
It's not a particularly fast wincondition, especially as a topdeck in the lategame (unlike Decree).
It makes it harder to stabilize against aggro because of the life loss.Conclusion: too little gain for the risk.
If you want to play a more tempo-orientated Blue-based control deck that can make use of Bitterblossom, I'd say to go with Skybus (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8637).



Another thing I'd like to bring up is the Wastelock strategy. Is it still relevant?

I've always been against running large quantities of Wasteland in Landstill. Here's why:

You gain more tempo by making land drops than by depriving your opponent of resources as you are the control deck with the big, expensive four mana spells that wants to ramp up to infinite+ mana to have Counterbackup for everything etc. Your opponent doesn't need more than 2-3 lands in most cases.
Manabases are more resilient than in the era where Landstill used to play a full playset of Wastelands: a single Wasteland will just do nothing most of the time.
Wasteland is a non-basic and a colourless source which you can't really afford with all the Blood Moons and Back to Basics around - it was hard enough on the manabase when this stuff wasn't around because of you being rather colour hungry anyway.A singleton Wasteland with a way to get it if need arises (Tolaria West (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/173.html)) is still decent though: Crucible+Waste is still quite powerful to avoid your opponent coming back into the game after you have achieved control, opposing manlands are a real pain, as are recursion lands (Academy Ruins, Volrath's Stronghold).



Something I'd like to address, by my definition of Power, Cunning Wish is not powerful. Your Extirpate now costs :2::u::b: instead of :b:.


Pernicious Deed costs often as much mana as Akroma's Vengeance. Is it therefore not powerful?


I would say Decree of Justice is the next most synergistic. Allowing mana to stay open for counters, being uncounterable, and being a threat under a Standstill.


The thing I like about Decree of Justice is that it is decent at any stage of the game: it is an earlygame Fog+Cantrip effect buying you time, in the midgame, it is uncounterable removal or multiple Fog against Goyfs and in the lategame it is an absolute beast of a wincondition.



I'd also very much like to get some feedback on the red splash. I know people in the last thread were touting UWR as the worst possible color combination for Landstill, but my list is completely different from the ones described in that I opt to splash red purely for SB options. In the meta described (or, @ from Cairo, in our meta), do you think the red splash has merit? Should I opt to play a more stable straight UW list and just play CoP: Red to shore up my Gobbo matchup (which also helps the Burn/Goyf Slight matchup)? Should I go with UWb instead, using EPlauge, and also having access to Extirpate (while losing access to REB)? I really feel the red splash is indeed powerful and can perform as well if not better than the other splashes, but I am open to suggestion.


Playing a splash only for sideboard options is absolutely reasonable (see 0 black cards in the maindeck of UWb Cunning Landstill) as long as the sideboard cards are worth splashing.
To examine which cards are worth splashing, you have to take a close look at the bad matchups of Landstill which are pretty much all coupled with a recursion engine which will overpower the Landstill player. Extirpate solves this. Nothing in any other colour does this, or at least doesn't do it as well and as polyvalently as Extirpate (it can hit Tarmogoyfs against NQG crippling their aggro, it can help win the lategame against other control decks, it slows down combo decks etc.). Now if you want any other cards for other matchups, I'd rather investigate if an alternative doesn't exist in Black as Black gives you some of the best sideboard cards... and by doing this you'll realize that there's little that black can't do. Pyroclasm is substituted by Engineered Plague (which is even better in the Cephalid Breakfast and Fish matchups). Red Elemental Blast can be replaced by Duress and Thoughtseize which are still pretty good in the control matchup and even heighten your win percentage against combo.
This list could be continued for most cards I'd guess, so that in the end, you'll end up with the conclusion that you don't need any more than Blue, White and Black, at least not if you're playing the more controlling versions of Landstill... other, more tempo orientated versions (Ur, Urb) can make a great use of Red for Mainboard reach (Lightning Bolt) and tempo (Fire/Ice), but those cards only belong in Landstill if you can back them up with a clock (6+ manlands, Tombstalker, Tarmogoyf etc.) and need an entirely different approach to the archetype.



Fracturing Gust. This is the best Disenchant effect for the Cunning Wishboard in approximately forever. It's a shame they had to give it to us in the same set as Mini-Moat. Decks with Mini-Moat, Moat, Humility, Counterbalance, or whatever, will have to choose between running Gust, targetted removal, or both.

If it weren't for the tripple (!) white cost, I'd be excited about this, but sadly at this cost it will be too harsh on the manabase, I'd guess.
Generally speaking I still recommend Return to Dust (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/39.html) as the wishboard 'Disenchant' slot: it creates card advantage at a moderate price and you have other tools against Blood Moon/Magus of the Moon (Blue Elemental Blast and Slaughter Pact).


UWb Cunning Landstill

The current list can be found here (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2559348&postcount=12) (I'm keeping this updated as changes are made to the list).

freakish777
04-22-2008, 02:47 PM
(aka lower the curve, cut lands), you still have to play 21-23 lands.

23 lands or 24 lands is potentially acceptable. Keep in mind that Crucible + a fetch ensures that the number of lands in your deck goes down every turn (and allows you to respond every turn to their spells when you know the top 2 cards don't match the casting cost of the spell played).


You can't play sweepers like Pernicious Deed in here. Your sweeper costs 4. Sadly 4 is a cost that might as well be a blank for Counterbalance as you only want to counter stuff with converted mana costs of 1 and 2 with the occasional 3.

In general this is correct. The occasional 4 comes in the form of however few DoJs and FoFs you run are. I will point out however that I have been saved by a blind Counterbalance revealing Decree of Justice against AngelStax attempting to resolve an Armageddon (they had Crucible in play, I did not) once. It is usually not relevent, but the ability to counter spells at all spots in the curve can come in handy. What would be nice is a statistical breakdown of cards in Top 8 lists to find the percantage of cards play that are countered by counterbalace at 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, etc. Ideally you would then be able to construct a deck with the same percentage of 1cc, 2cc, 3cc, 4cc, 5cc spells, etc.



Counterbalance requires double blue mana

So does Counterspell, the more important part here is that you're usually wanting to tap out on turn 2 for it, and without Daze, you're less likely to resolve it then Threshold is.


and wants a lot of free mana in the opponent's turn. Factories (and other colorless sources) are not a combo with either one of these issues.

This is actually one of the reasons I'm question the power of the Wastelock strategy. Countertop seems to be more powerful, and the 2 strategies are competiting for your resources.



By playing Counterbalance, you open yourself to other Counterbalances

How so? Your Counterbalance will be less powerful then Threshold's, yes (because you aren't backing it up with a fast clock), but that doesn't mean we have to optimize that one strategy.

This may seem to contradict what this thread is about, but let me assure you it doesn't. We are attempting to build the "best deck" for a given metagame. The best deck can implement any number of strategies (limited to 60 cards), it is therefore in our interest to find the best strategies available to us and not only attempt to incorporate them, but identify which of them are the most important (which strategy is responsible for the most game wins among all of them, the dominate strategy if it wins more then any other strategy) and optimize that one strategy. This means that if the best strategy your deck has requires you play four 4cc cards and twelve 3cc cards, your Counterbalance + Top "strategy" may not be optimized. But this unoptimized, less important (less dominant) strategy may still be more powerful then the other strategies available to you, in which case you incorporate it anyways in it's unoptimized form because it's the right strategy to incorporate. If the Wastelock were a dominate strategy, not playing 4 Crucible of Worlds and 4 Wastelands would be a mistake, so that's a currently unoptimized strategy in Landstill builds (and for good reason in my opinion, in fact when the formats first split, if your list had 3 Wastelands in it instead of 4, people assumed you were automatically wrong, and yet either the metagame has evolved, or people have correctly determined that the strategy isn't as good as it was once perceived, or a little bit of both as many lists have gone to 3 Wastelands).

Let me be clear, I think Counterbalance + Top is a powerful enough strategy to warrant testing and possibly inclusion. The only question in my mind is if it's unoptimized version (without the fast clock and the exact percentage of casting cost spells in your deck your opponents are playing) is powerful enough to supplant a competing strategy.

As such, with an unoptimized Counterbalance strategy, you don't necessarily "open yourself up to other Counterbalances" to the extent one would initially think.




Aggro Control matchup better (if you stick it), but you win that already in 90% of the cases. It makes the (storm) combo matchup better... which no-one plays and which isn't that challenging (I have yet to loose a sanctioned match to storm combo with UWb Landstill) in the first place etc.

In otherwords you're saying that focus should be on beating the aggro match (and your suggestion is resolving Humility with Manlands in play).



But really, I don't see why you would want to play Bitterblossom:

It makes you fetch black early making your manabase more vulnerable.
It's not a particularly fast wincondition, especially as a topdeck in the lategame (unlike Decree).
It makes it harder to stabilize against aggro because of the life loss.


There should have been an 's' at the end of the drawback when talking about that card. I wasn't so much talking about Bitterblossom, as much as lamenting the fact that there isn't an enchantment/land that creates token creatures at (what I consider to be) "reasonable costs" for Legacy (if Hoofprints creating them during your opponent's turn, I'd be sold).




Pernicious Deed costs often as much mana as Akroma's Vengeance. Is it therefore not powerful?

If the definition of "Work" were simply mana cost then, no Deed would in fact has the same power level as Akroma's Vengeance. However defining "Work" is a little harder to do as it includes any set up, time, etc involved. Since Deed can be broken up over 2 turns it is usually powerful (as you can use it on turn 4 for the desired effect, this is why a combo involving a 5 mana spell and a 1 mana spell that wins the game is less powerful then a combo with 2 mana spell and a 4 mana spell).

I was simply stating that by my definition of Power, Cunning Wish isn't powerful, but instead versatile. This isn't necessarily bad, while I do want to pursue looking for the most powerful cards and strategies to get into the deck, that doesn't mean that there is automatically no place for versatility in the lists we discuss, as that versatility may be the difference between making top 8 and not (however I think the best use of time at the beginning of this thread is to identify the most powerful strategies, and then after a framework has been established, move to "customizing" your deck for your metagame, which is where versatility shines).

diffy
04-22-2008, 03:45 PM
23 lands or 24 lands is potentially acceptable. Keep in mind that Crucible + a fetch ensures that the number of lands in your deck goes down every turn (and allows you to respond every turn to their spells when you know the top 2 cards don't match the casting cost of the spell played).
[...]
The occasional 4 comes in the form of however few DoJs and FoFs you run are.


My point was that the strength of Counterbalance (both blind shots and with top) decreases proportionally to the amount of lands/cards that don't counter anything if revealed (lands and cmc4+) you play.
As Landstill still is a mana intensive control deck (especially Factories), you generally want some more lands than your average aggro-control making Counterbalance worse.



So does Counterspell, the more important part here is that you're usually wanting to tap out on turn 2 for it, and without Daze, you're less likely to resolve it then Threshold is.


The thing is that you don't to fully remove Counterspell for Counterbalance which would up the colour-hungriness of the deck which is not a good thing to do, especially not in a metagame with Wastelands+Stifles+Blood Moons etc. all running rampage.



Let me be clear, I think Counterbalance + Top is a powerful enough strategy to warrant testing and possibly inclusion. The only question in my mind is if it's unoptimized version (without the fast clock and the exact percentage of casting cost spells in your deck your opponents are playing) is powerful enough to supplant a competing strategy.


I disagree with this as if you're only eventually/randomly countering each other spell with Counterbalance, it is not good enough as a control element and should therefore not be implemented in favour of other, more reliable, control elements.
Counterbalance can be very strong, but to assure this, you have to adapt your deck to it because otherwise it is not strong enough... paradox isn't it?





Counterbalance opens yourself up to Counterbalance
How so? Your Counterbalance will be less powerful then Threshold's, yes (because you aren't backing it up with a fast clock), but that doesn't mean we have to optimize that one strategy.


To run Counterbalance to an extent where it is a threat (read: you reliably hit the most commonly played spells and have a certain probability of countering stuff even without Top) and not only a semi-reliable two card combo that doesn't win the game, you have to adapt your curve to the average curve of Legacy decks which would look something like this (random/rough figures):
37.5% cmc1 | 50% cmc2 | 12.5% cmc3
If you trim your deck as much as possible to follow these figures (you won't be able to do this to the fullest extent anyway because you need Wrath of Gods), you yourself get exposed to opposing Counterbalances as your opponent (take NQG for example which has a distribution of around 60% cmc1 and 40% cmc2) has now a higher chance of hitting something vital (unlike previously where you could rely on cmc3+ spells).



In other words you're saying that focus should be on beating the aggro match (and your suggestion is resolving Humility with Manlands in play).


Since the most common matchup is the aggro matchup, yes, I strongly recommend making sure one's beating it first - especially if the inclusion of cards that make the aggro matchup better (Humility) are also good in most other matchups (Humility spells 'I win' against anything that wants to kill with creatures... seriously. Even MUC.).
The control matchup can then be fixed via 'strong' cards like Standstill, Cunning Wish, Decree of Justice etc. and the combo matchup can be left ignored: it is not worth diluting your other matchup percentages for an archetype that you're only likely to face once in a long tournament... and even the combo matchup is not that bad (as stated) because of strong control elements and postboard Meddling Mages + Extirpates.


However I think the best use of time at the beginning of this thread is to identify the most powerful strategies, and then after a framework has been established, move to "customizing" your deck for your metagame, which is where versatility shines.

If you want to build a UWx Landstill version featuring CounterTop (which is still unneeded and inferior to other decks in my opinion), here're some ideas for a skeleton:
21-23 lands and more cantrips (Ponder?) for smoothing
0-3 Repeal for amazing tempo and versatility
Thirst for Knowledge over Fact or Fiction for mana cost reasons
Hoofprints of the Stag over Decree of Justice for mana cost reasons
Oblivion Ring, Condemn, Wing Shards, Smother, Ghastly Demise for additional removal and mana cost reasons

freakish777
04-22-2008, 06:10 PM
37.5% cmc1 | 50% cmc2 | 12.5% cmc3


This is clearly not accurate when you look at Top 8 decklists sections. Say you only took results from the Winter Wonderland Tournament here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8090).

Here's our estimated breakdowns (of just maindeck cards):


1: 43.1%
2: 31.4%
3: 11.7%
4: 6%
5: 6.4%
6: 0%
7: 0%
8: 1.4%
9+: 0%

(I would wager that in the month of March our deviation from these numbers is less then 5% for 1 and 2, less then 3% on 3, less than 2% on 4 and 6+, the only number I think would change drastically would be 5, as the number of Force of Wills at a tournament always seems to be very high, or very low)

The following cards were left out, due to the fact that the decks strategy usually doesn't involve playing that card, or we shouldn't worry about them:

Squee, Anger, Genesis, Ichorid, Bridge from Below, Narcomoeba, Dredge creatures, Cephalid Sage, Flame Kin Zealot, Lands and cards costing zero.

so, if we have 24 lands in our main, and 36 cards left, and our goal is to optimize Counterbalance (again, I don't think it's necessary to optimize it for it to be a powerful strategy) against those 8 decks, our breakdown should be:

1: 16
2: 11
3: 4
4: 2
5: 2
8: 1

Now, for the sake of argument let's take that 8cc card out of our analysis (Tombstalker, as we're pretty sure we aren't going to run something that costs 8) and dump it into our 5 slot, let's also take a 1cc card and move it to the 5cc slot (the 1cc slot got rounded up, the 5cc slot got rounded down, and we want to be at 4 FoW, obviously).

so our new list gives us:

1: 15
2: 11
3: 4
4: 2
5: 4

Something like:

4 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Counterspell
4 Standstill
3 Counterbalance

2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Cunning Wish

2 Humility

4 Force of Will

Now, obviously that list has it's flaws (needs a win condition, Stifle probably isn't that hot, etc, if we go to 37 cards and 23 lands, the extra card would end up at the 2cc slot, which could be a Hoofprints), but the point remains, countering 4cc and 5cc spells is more important than your original guess lets on, as cards at those casting costs are likely to be about 10% of any given metagame (your guess is 3cc is almost spot on, your guess at 1 and 2 are basically reversed from what they should be, and both are less important than you thought, as 4 and 5 are more important).

Let me repeat, I don't think it's in your best interest (necessarily) to optimize a strategy just because you're playing. It's in your best interest to optimize the strategy responsible for the most match wins.


I'm fully aware of the other issues with the Counterbalance package (the mana intensity of it). The argument that "you open yourself up to opposing Counterbalances" is actually a double edged sword as it necessarily means your resolved Counterbalance is more powerful.

What do you suggest in it's place as a more powerful strategy/control element? (In your own words "eventually countering each other spell with Counterbalance," I don't know about anyone else, but that seems to go a long way into "hindering your opponent from accomplishing their strategy").

diffy
04-22-2008, 06:37 PM
your guess is 3cc is almost spot on, your guess at 1 and 2 are basically reversed from what they should be, and both are less important than you thought, as 4 and 5 are more important


The cmc2 and cmc1 spot being reversed is actually done on purpose for two main reasons. First of all, you can always counter things with a converted mana cost of one easier than something with a converted mana cost of two because of Sensei's Divining Top so that you'd rather have more cmc2 things to find one when using that Top. The second reason to include more spells in the cmc2 slot is that you can ignore the spells that are in the cmc1 slot in most cases anyway: there's removal, there're cantrips, which you can ignore [the removal because you have control of the game and so will just eventually win, it doesn't matter why | the cantrips because you can just counter what they dig into], there's the occasional Dreadnought/Vial/Lackey/Whatever, but these are rather rare, come down before Balance or can be handled quite easily and efficiently otherwise (Engineered Explosives comes to mind). The real threats are found in the cmc2 slots, mainly because of Tarmogoyf (Dark Confidant, Survival of the Fittest, Life from the Loam, Infernal Tutor, Abeyance [to stop the CounterTop engine], Burning Wish etc.) and opposing permission.
The 5spot was left out because that's basically only Force of Will and you can't be including other cmc5 cards which suck otherwise only to counter opposing Forces more frequently - especially since not every deck plays Force of Will (but every deck plays cmc1 and cmc2 spells).
Also, I'd rather not dilute the consistency of hitting converted mana costs 1 to 3 to be able to eventually hit that 4 mana spell one deck casted: that's what your other permission is for: just focus on making Counterbalance effective against the most commonly played things and handle the rare things that slip through otherwise.



What do you suggest in it's place as a more powerful strategy/control element? (In your own words "eventually countering each other spell with Counterbalance," I don't know about anyone else, but that seems to go a long way into "hindering your opponent from accomplishing their strategy").

Humility, Wrath of God, Swords to Plowshares, Engineered Explosives (and Cunning Wish to a certain extent) are all I've ever needed for creature control.
Counterspell, Force of Will are all I've ever needed for permission.
What is there more to control than the board and the stack? Artifacts and Enchantments I'd guess... meh those are either creatures or irrelevant most of the time (Counterbalance) - if not, there's always Cunning Wish for a solution or Engineered Explosives.

Now the permission part might seem a little on the low side, especially if compared to a build with Counterbalance but I think that this is largely due to a playstyle difference: I don't counter anything that I can handle otherwise and keep the Counters for the scary stuff.

'Eventually countering every spell or the other' is actually not really going the control direction: if you can't be sure of what resolves and what not, you add an element of randomness to the game. Randomness = loss of control so that I'd rather have something that completely shuts the opponent down (Humility) or just win via card advantage (Wrath of God, Engineered Explosives, Standstill), as usually.

Again, you might want to have a look at my list (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2559348&postcount=12) and maybe give it a try.

kabal
04-22-2008, 07:55 PM
Here is the build I have been testing with. Based on my Meta, Black seems to be the color to splash. Stifle/Wasteland mana denial is still very strong, and worth including.

1 Eternal Dragon

4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
2 Decree of Justice
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Wrath of God

4 Standstill

2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Engineered Explosives

4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Plains
2 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland

Sideboard
4 Meddling Mage
3 Extirpate
4 Engineered Plague
4 What I can infer about the Meta before hand

Jaynel
04-22-2008, 08:16 PM
In which matchups does Meddling Mage come in? Storm based combo? Loam archetypes?

thefreakaccident
04-22-2008, 09:18 PM
You basically got it on the money... it can also come in for the mirror, since you will want to remove both humility and wrath anyways... As for mirror, I mean other versions of landstill (name deed against bhww... etc).

Not always advisable, but an option... he usually just comes in for combo decks, belcher, storm, breakfast (bridge from below), and rarely comes in for loam.

He can be a real pain in some combo deck's sides sometimes.

whienot
04-22-2008, 09:30 PM
Mage also excels against decks with few threats. When combined with Extirpate you can lockout certain strategies.

lebarion
04-23-2008, 04:55 PM
I'm practicing with UWb CunningStill for some time now. I like the deck a lot, however I'm not used to playing control decks and many times I have problems getting into the late game. I'd like to ask you the general strategy in two situations:


Against red thresh, if they put me in a clock early in the game. Should I risk casting a Humility/WoG with 4 lands, and be countered by a Daze?
Against Goblins, Elves or Slivers, I've lost some games to a swarm of 1/1 (humility) creatures, before I could find WoG.


I don't know if I'm just unlucky or I'm a victim of my lack of ability :rolleyes:
Thanks!

from Cairo
04-23-2008, 11:00 PM
Against red thresh, if they put me in a clock early in the game. Should I risk casting a Humility/WoG with 4 lands, and be countered by a Daze?



I generally try to bait out Daze in the first 3 turns to avoid the likelihood of them having it Turn 4. If you have a 5th land in hand, and haven't seen a Daze yet against Thresh I would be reluctant to push Humility. It is going to be game swinging if it resolves, if you can afford to wait a turn its probably the right call.

Wrath of God is generally less of a concern if they counter it cause most likely they only have 2 Threats out anyway, you have X EE, X WoG, X Humility and 4 Factory for Geese, and an additional 4 Swords for Goyfs, so losing one of many creature answers to Daze isn't nearly as bad as losing a Humility. But if you really need to clear the board and haven't seen a Daze yet and can afford to wait the extra turn it can often be an ok call.

Also there is always the option of cycling an early Decree turn 4 to buy you an extra turn/land drop. Block the biggest threat, slow the bleeding a bit, get a card deeper, then the following turn play Humility/WoG with an extra mana available.



Against Goblins, Elves or Slivers, I've lost some games to a swarm of 1/1 (humility) creatures, before I could find WoG.



Preboard you can often utilize EE or Swords to slow your opponents swarms down, EE@1 vs Elves, EE@2 vs Slivers, Goblins has a wider spread of casting costs, but if they have a couple at the same it can generate a bit of CA and buy some time to find a sweeper. Decree and Mishra's Factory are also as good as WoG in most cases. So I mean really you have 8+ cards that will answer swarms, and another 6-7 that will buy you time to get to them, plus Brainstorm to dig for them.

Cunning Wish for Pulse of the Fields can also work if they are swinging with 3-5 guys it will set back the damage race quite a bit.

Postboard, you have 6 Enchantments (3-4 Plague, 2-3 Humility) and resolving any 2-3 of them is essentially good game.

Mental
04-24-2008, 12:16 AM
My general problem with Landstill, as of late, has been that the Threshold MU is not as good as people say it. The problem is that all your solutions are more expensive than the cards they are answering, which, when coupled with the mana denial played by Thrash/Moonthresh, really hurts your ability to combat cards like Nimble Mongoose. Tarmogoyf still isn't scary, but with such a rediculously slow clock as Landstill has, Thresh can often just play the tempo game and come up ahead.
For me, that says a few things about the directions of the meta:
Expensive answers that aren't versatile will no longer be playable in a Thrash meta. Wrath of God has been a bad card for a while but will probably now actually be cut from lists.
I really don't like cards like DoJ - It's vulnerable to every form of hate avaliable, is a huge mana sink, and just gets worse and worse with every new variation on Thresh that's released.
Crucible, a card that previously wrecked Threshold, is very slow. It may still be playable, but it doesn't seem like it should be any more than 1 or 2 of at most.
Wasteland is also not as good as it was. For me, Landstill is a deck that doesn't do much the early game, and then slow rolls with powerful answers and threats that can't be dealt with by decks that have a weak late game. However, by playing lots of duals/fetches/wastes you ensure that the game will stay in the early game. If I'm playing threshold, and a UWb Landstill player wastelands my Trop, I'm happy, because it will give my Goose another turn to smash for 3.

Stability and consistancy in Landstill list are, to me, the most important aspect against the new forms of Threshold as they allow us to survive the tempo war long enough to utilize the bombs that make Landstill a powerful deck.

Discuss.

thefreakaccident
04-24-2008, 12:53 AM
I haven't had any issues in the thrash MU, you just have to be conservative and aware of the board state... this is one of those MUs that I will have to stop the bleeding ASAP, as they can finish the deal with burn... the idea here is to stop the bleeding ASAP, stabilize, then use your draw/Cwishes to gain an advantage and ride that to victory... you do not have to win fast, just make sure they do not.

from Cairo
04-24-2008, 02:18 AM
I've found Thrash to be pretty manageable as well. The deck really doesn't run many threatening cards, and they get much worse if you make it to the mid-late game (read Stifle, Daze, Spell Snare). You can afford to aggressively control their guys in the early game cause really they don't have that many, FoWing a Goyf isn't awful if you don't have an EE or Swords ready for it, again once you make it to the mid game the scales tilt very heavily in your favor. Since the Thrash player is pretty much forced to dig for guys and burn, where you have much higher answer density than they do threat density.

And while Wrath of God is very bad in the Thresh match up it is still very good in many others. It's not really fair to say a card is bad based against a deck running 8 guys and Daze, clearly a 4 mana 1 for 1 is bad, when they can return a land to counter it, but against Goblins and other agro a 4 mana 4 for 1 is huge.

DoJ is vulnerable to what? Stifle? I don't see that as "every form of hate available". Even then if you are winning you can just counter the Stifle and still make a ton of guys. I guess Pithing Needle, but if my opponent wants to waste a Needle on DoJ rather than Engineered Explosives or Mishra's Factory, more power to them, I'd be pretty confident about that match. How is an instant speed win condition a mana sink? Compared to any thing that requires main phase mana, a creature or Hoofprints activations, there is no real commitment to DoJ, it's about as convenient a win condition as one can have.

Drac
04-24-2008, 08:08 AM
Ive tried to adjust my UWb Landstill deck to a deck that runs counterbalance, moat, Etutor etc etc. I have come to the conclusion that it just isnt worth it. I like to run as few permanents that need to stay as i can.
Ill post the list i am liking the most at the moment, hoping for some good comments.

Lands (24)

4 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
1 Acadamy Ruins
1 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains

2 Jace, Beleren
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
2 Cunning Wish
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Innocent Blood
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Nevinyrral's Disk
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Decree of Justice
1 Haunting Echoes

Sideboard:

1 Fact or Fiction
3 Extirpate
3 Meddling Mage
4 Engineered Plague
1 Pulse of the fields
1 Tsabo's Decree
1 Dismantling Blow
1 Diabolic Edict

thefreakaccident
04-24-2008, 11:04 AM
I do not understand The inclusion of Jace Beleren at all, you're list looks pretty decent, but why run Jace?

I have a strong hatred towards the card (and I did test it, so don't give me that crap)... he is bad against both agro, and agro control... he is sorcery speed, which is also huge (in a bad way)... he is only guaranteed to draw you one card, and if you try to win through milling the opponent, they will gain plenty of cards to try and stop you from doing this... he can be needled as well...

I say FoF is almost always better, as it gives you selection and cards now, and at instant speed (which is also huge everywhere).

Cunning wish is better than both, but you do not need it as you are already running it. I have never been a real fan of haunting echoes in LS either, generally you want to have one of two options with your winconditions:

1. it works under the still
2. comes out before the still (i.e. goyf/grunt)...

Decree of justice is huge here as it is both instant speed, can be played under stand still, and is a huge finisher with flexibility (can be used earlier in the game for different effect on the game state).

I have always liked the disk+ruins combo though, I think it is hawt... try and fit in a tolaria west plz.




EDIT:

I have been testing a slight variation off of Der's original list (i.e. w/ 2 crucibles b4 3rd plains)... I cut an explosives and a crucible for enlightened tutors in the main (2 of them)... I cannot say how many times I just tutor up humility and win, or tutor EOT for standstill after countering something...

The REB in the board hasn't been treating me well (don't have much red here), so I put it back as the fourth plague...

The hoser density has improved for the deck durrastically because of these minor changes... it may also open up a few options (like a slight sideboard second tool box outside of the wish)...

I may add a needle or two in the board as well for the mirror (board out stuff like wrath et all).. With needle, extirpate, and the option of mage, the mirror should be easy to handle after boarding.

I may also drop wasteland, as it hasn't been useful at all recently, although I am also fearful that when I do I will see a deck with stronghold (which would be a bitch).

from Cairo
04-24-2008, 05:24 PM
I may also drop wasteland, as it hasn't been useful at all recently, although I am also fearful that when I do I will see a deck with stronghold (which would be a bitch).

I can't see why if you're running Tolaria West you wouldn't run the single Wasteland. Granted it's not incredible alot of the time, but since you just mentioned playing against the mirror, its pretty strong versus opposing Factories, Nantuko Monasteries, and Academy Ruins. Not to mention that it opens you up to having options like Wasteland -> Trop + Cunning Wish -> Extirpate, GG Thresh, etc. Additionally with Crucible it gives you the ability to Wastelock. I mean each of these situations probably wont come up that frequently, but at the cost of one card slot it's hard to argue that Wasteland doesn't carry it's weight.

FlavaSava
04-25-2008, 08:30 AM
I only used the Tolaria West to search a Wasteland one-two times, most I take a EE or Academy Ruins if i have EE already or Factory.

klaus
04-25-2008, 09:38 AM
I've been playing all kinds of LS lists and tinkering with plenty stuff. Here is the list that I think is one of the most consistent ones out there:

Draw:
4 Standstill
1 Thirst for Knowledge ---- nice with hoofprints (+ supported by 9 artifacts)
4 Brainstorm-------------- s.a.
1 Jace Beleren------------ s.a., he truely is amazing in most MUs

Counter Suite:
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell

Creature Hate:
3 Wrath of God
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Diabolic Edict ---------- it's alright - more of a meta slot though, I guess
1 Vedalken Shackles

More Artifacts:
3 Sensei's Divining Top -- this card is definitively underplayed - even without CB it's amazing - test it! (I might be adding another fetchland for top)
Also: It's superb with Hoofprints.
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Crucible of Worlds

Kill Options beyond Factory:
2 Hoofprints of the Stag ----------------the deck seems like it was built around HP - every single card that HP benefits from ,is strong enough on its own, however.
(Shackles belongs here, too - sort of)

Land:
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Plains
3 Wasteland
4 M. Factory
1 Academy Ruins --Shackles (which is gamebreaking especially in the mirror match), EE, Crucible, and even S. Top are worthy targets.
---

Merely 23 might appear land light, I've found however that it's the perfect number for this build. Only 3 4cmc spells (no decree, humility, Fact/Fiction etc..) and 2 Crucibles, as well as 3 basics makes the mana supply sufficiently reliable.

SB:
4 Extirpate
4 E. Plague
3 Counterbalance
2 BEB
2 Open slots
--------------------------------

Thoughts, suggestions?

Mental
04-26-2008, 05:07 PM
I've found Thrash to be pretty manageable as well. The deck really doesn't run many threatening cards, and they get much worse if you make it to the mid-late game (read Stifle, Daze, Spell Snare). You can afford to aggressively control their guys in the early game cause really they don't have that many, FoWing a Goyf isn't awful if you don't have an EE or Swords ready for it, again once you make it to the mid game the scales tilt very heavily in your favor. Since the Thrash player is pretty much forced to dig for guys and burn, where you have much higher answer density than they do threat density.

And while Wrath of God is very bad in the Thresh match up it is still very good in many others. It's not really fair to say a card is bad based against a deck running 8 guys and Daze, clearly a 4 mana 1 for 1 is bad, when they can return a land to counter it, but against Goblins and other agro a 4 mana 4 for 1 is huge.

DoJ is vulnerable to what? Stifle? I don't see that as "every form of hate available". Even then if you are winning you can just counter the Stifle and still make a ton of guys. I guess Pithing Needle, but if my opponent wants to waste a Needle on DoJ rather than Engineered Explosives or Mishra's Factory, more power to them, I'd be pretty confident about that match. How is an instant speed win condition a mana sink? Compared to any thing that requires main phase mana, a creature or Hoofprints activations, there is no real commitment to DoJ, it's about as convenient a win condition as one can have.

Stifle, EE, Clasm, Fire/Ice, Deed, WoG, etc.

Wrath of God is clearly bad in the THRESH match up, bad in the Control MU, and bad in the Goblins MU (because of Mana Denial, and it doesn't stop their draw engine). Don't tell me it isn't bad.

Hoofprints is stronger than DoJ because it if they don't answer IT, not just the token it makes, they'll die eventually. DoJ tokens are incredible vulnerable.

klaus
04-26-2008, 06:14 PM
Stifle, EE, Clasm, Fire/Ice, Deed, WoG, etc.

...
Tabernacle effects, Powder Keg, Trickbind, Sulfur Elemental, the list goes on
-
You still can't deny it's superb when paired with Humility plus other than Hoofprints, you can play it under Standstill.
Moreover, often times it is gamebreaking in the mirror.
---
That said, I still prefer Hoofprints as a kill condition - the thing is though, you can't just randomly exchange DoJ and HP in a common LS deck - you have to make (at least) some minor commitments to embed HP properly (i.e. Thirst 4 Knowledge, Jace and the likes).
BTW...
The list that I posted above won me a tourney today (well #1 split):

The 2 open SB slots were filled by Disenchants cause I figured there'd be some Dragon Stompy, Geddon Stax & Survival running around.

G1: "White Stax" - I won cause he didn't see any wastelands G1/G3
G2: "Dragon Stompy" - Disenchant & BEB win me G2/G3
G3: "Ichorid" I win due to my opponent being inexperienced
G4: "Survival" G1-I lose to Tarmogoys, G2 Extirpate on squee and Genesis make it a mediochre Aggro deck, G3 We take too long and Draw.

I seriously won every game on the back of HP. There were very few games that I wasn't able to activate it twice - in some games it went like:
eot BS, Draw, activate...eot Thirst 4 K., Draw activate..

from Cairo
04-26-2008, 06:42 PM
Stifle, EE, Clasm, Fire/Ice, Deed, WoG, etc.

Hoofprints is stronger than DoJ because it if they don't answer IT, not just the token it makes, they'll die eventually. DoJ tokens are incredible vulnerable.

The card is a secondary win condition and is a great form of card advantage, especially in the late game.

You play counter-answers to all those cards too, I mean just about any win condition can be dealt with, Hoofprints can be EE'd or Deeded too, or Counterspelled or Force of Willed or Counterbalanced or Pithing Needled. Half of those answers to DoJ that you list are Sorcery speed anyways, Fire/Ice only deals with 2 guys and its still at the cost of a card, so in those cases you're still drawing the extra card and swinging for a bunch of damage. Like EOT DoJ for 6 guys, cantrip, swing 6, next turn they Wrath of God, so be it, you just got 6 damage and a card out of a Decree that they spent a Wrath or Clasm on. Even if they do answer one of your cycles, if its with anything other than Stifle you're still gaining card advantage.

DoJ has as good of synergy with Humility as one could ask for. Spending 3 turns and 3 main phase mana for a 1/1 with no abilities seems awful, spending 7+ mana on 4+ 1/1s with no abilities at a random eot, and getting to draw a card seems really good.

If I were running Moat instead of Humility, clearly I would see Hoofprints as stronger for similar reasons; the 1/1s wouldn't do shit with a Moat in play, and the 4/4 fliers would be awesome.

Clearly in the context of different lists the cards vary in power level, but both are strong, Decree has proven its worth in Landstill for a long time to discount it as being obsolete is inaccurate.


Wrath of God is clearly bad in the THRESH match up, bad in the Control MU, and bad in the Goblins MU (because of Mana Denial, and it doesn't stop their draw engine). Don't tell me it isn't bad.
It isn't bad. Its good against agro, its bad against control and combo and its sub par against agro control. But there isn't really a replacement for it in UW for sweepers, so I don't really see an argument for what would replace it and serve a similar function. If there was a Pernicious Deed for 1UW, then I would certainly be trying it in the Wrath of God slots, but there isn't, for dealing with multiple guys that make their way onto the board there's WoG and EE, both of which I feel hold their own.

Mental
04-26-2008, 06:57 PM
The card is a secondary win condition and is a great form of card advantage, especially in the late game.

You play counter-answers to all those cards too, I mean just about any win condition can be dealt with, Hoofprints can be EE'd or Deeded too, or Counterspelled or Force of Willed or Counterbalanced or Pithing Needled. Half of those answers to DoJ that you list are Sorcery speed anyways, Fire/Ice only deals with 2 guys and its still at the cost of a card, so in those cases you're still drawing the extra card and swinging for a bunch of damage. Like EOT DoJ for 6 guys, cantrip, swing 6, next turn they Wrath of God, so be it, you just got 6 damage and a card out of a Decree that they spent a Wrath or Clasm on. Even if they do answer one of your cycles, if its with anything other than Stifle you're still gaining card advantage.

DoJ has as good of synergy with Humility as one could ask for. Spending 3 turns and 3 main phase mana for a 1/1 with no abilities seems awful, spending 7+ mana on 4+ 1/1s with no abilities at a random eot, and getting to draw a card seems really good.

If I were running Moat instead of Humility, clearly I would see Hoofprints as stronger for similar reasons; the 1/1s wouldn't do shit with a Moat in play, and the 4/4 fliers would be awesome.

Clearly in the context of different lists the cards vary in power level, but both are strong, Decree has proven its worth in Landstill for a long time to discount it as being obsolete is inaccurate.


It isn't bad. Its good against agro, its bad against control and combo and its sub par against agro control. But there isn't really a replacement for it in UW for sweepers, so I don't really see an argument for what would replace it and serve a similar function. If there was a Pernicious Deed for 1UW, then I would certainly be trying it in the Wrath of God slots, but there isn't, for dealing with multiple guys that make their way onto the board there's WoG and EE, both of which I feel hold their own.

If you have 9 mana available, you already win the game. So Decree is just one of the many ways you can pull that off, and because it has no early game function, it's one of the less useful ones.

Wrath IS bad against non-jank aggro, and it it's bad against everything else. A smart Goblins player will NEVER overextended into WoG, so at most WoG will buy you 2-3 turns. What you need to deal with Goblins is Humility, Counterspells, GOYF, and Stifle. Wrath is too expensive for a Pyroclasm.

from Cairo
04-26-2008, 08:06 PM
Whatever there is no point in this continuing. It's not constructive in the least.

In the example I was giving I was talking about it as a win condition, so yes when you are in control and winning the game. It can also be a 4-5 mana Fog+Cantrip, under a Humility it can be a Wrath + Cantrip, etc. It's not good before you reach 4 land... it gets exponentially better as the game goes on, Landstill is a late game deck, what is there to further discuss? Hoofprints isn't exactly an early game all star either, if you tap out to drop it turn two it gets online earliest turn 4 as well, if you invest a Brainstorm in powering it up, or it naturally gets online turn 5 at which point you are probably either establishing dominance or losing.

In my experience Wrath has been a huge boost to gaining control of Goblins and other agro preboard. Being able to reset the board turn 4-5 setting them back 3-4 cards to your 1, puts you in a better position to start establishing dominance.

Apparently your experience has been different, I guess all I can offer is that we agree to disagree.

Jak
04-27-2008, 02:25 AM
Wrath IS bad against non-jank aggro, and it it's bad against everything else. A smart Goblins player will NEVER overextended into WoG, so at most WoG will buy you 2-3 turns. What you need to deal with Goblins is Humility, Counterspells, GOYF, and Stifle. Wrath is too expensive for a Pyroclasm.

I don't agree with your assessment of WoG at all. I still rocks against Goblins because more than likely you will 3 for 1 them or possibly more. Goblins would not be able to beat you while attacking with a Mogg Fanatic for the whole game. It is a lot easier to cast than Deed in 4c.

Against thresh, it takes out Goose. Pretty important IMO because I hate trading my Factories with them.

And I really hate the arguement that DoJ is easy to answer. Sure, all those cards stop it but that is a dumb arguement. No one has Pyroclasm MD. Wrath is mostly played in Landstill and DoJ rocks in that MU. Fire/Ice... I'll go ahead and make a list for Hoofprints.

Force of Will
Counterspell
Stifle
Spell Snare
Mana Leak
Humility
Krosan Grip
Deed
Disenchant
Tranquility
Creature Removal
Absolver Thrull

The list goes on. More people wil side in Krosan Grip against Landstill than Pyroclasm. If you play smart with DoJ and have some counterbackup, you should win the game in 2 turns. Hoofprints is slow. I think it is awesome, but I would still play DoJ over it anyday.

thefreakaccident
04-27-2008, 02:44 AM
I haven't been playing much lately (AP classes, I test when I can)... I know my MUs very well however. Wrath is good against goblins, although you cannot hit vial, your real goal is to stall into humility, once it sticks, that is when you really win...

I have a tourney coming up, and I want your guy's opinions on how to modify my list...

Here is the meta I expect:

2 landstill (BHWW)
2 agro-loam
2 survival (proabably ATS... I know right?!)
4-6 black based agro (BWG, deadguy, eva green)
3-4 affinity
5-6 goblins
2 SI
3 threshold (varying splashes)
somewhere between 5-10 random homemade decks...


As you can imagine, the meta is kinda random...

I am mainly looking for suggestions for the board and a few utility slots (my list is Der's exact list except without a 3rd explosives and 3rd plains).

I am considering maybe playing something else for the event, as I would love to have Disk in my build... Any suggestions/ideas for the board/open slots would be appreciated.

Mental
04-27-2008, 01:06 PM
I don't agree with your assessment of WoG at all. I still rocks against Goblins because more than likely you will 3 for 1 them or possibly more. Goblins would not be able to beat you while attacking with a Mogg Fanatic for the whole game. It is a lot easier to cast than Deed in 4c.

Against thresh, it takes out Goose. Pretty important IMO because I hate trading my Factories with them.

And I really hate the arguement that DoJ is easy to answer. Sure, all those cards stop it but that is a dumb arguement. No one has Pyroclasm MD. Wrath is mostly played in Landstill and DoJ rocks in that MU. Fire/Ice... I'll go ahead and make a list for Hoofprints.

Force of Will
Counterspell
Stifle
Spell Snare
Mana Leak
Humility
Krosan Grip
Deed
Disenchant
Tranquility
Creature Removal
Absolver Thrull

The list goes on. More people wil side in Krosan Grip against Landstill than Pyroclasm. If you play smart with DoJ and have some counterbackup, you should win the game in 2 turns. Hoofprints is slow. I think it is awesome, but I would still play DoJ over it anyday.

I admit that both are vulnerable, I just feel that Hoofprints does more early on than DoJ does.

You are overestimating WoG. Paying 4 Mana to kill a 1 Drop is NOT a good trade. Play 4 EE if you're that worried about Goose. 4 Mana for a 3 for 1 against Goblins is good, sure, but it doesn't do anything to shut off the engine that really makes them win -- Ringleader.

Jak
04-27-2008, 04:09 PM
I admit that both are vulnerable, I just feel that Hoofprints does more early on than DoJ does.

You are overestimating WoG. Paying 4 Mana to kill a 1 Drop is NOT a good trade. Play 4 EE if you're that worried about Goose. 4 Mana for a 3 for 1 against Goblins is good, sure, but it doesn't do anything to shut off the engine that really makes them win -- Ringleader.

EE is still 3 mana. EE is a great card and I am not saying you should cut it, but they play diferent roles. EE takes care of a lot of things like CB, Aether Vial, and hits a ton of creatures, but you shouldn't think of it as a sweeper. Wrath and EE are very different.

Those 3 goblins will still kill you and EE will most likely go 1 for 1 with a goblin. You are saying how Wrath is weak, but what do you put in its place? It fills the must needed role against aggro and still beats goblins. Make that 3 for 1 trade and then counter or stifle Ringleader.

All I see you do is say that goblins are good and Wrath can't beat them. That is not right. It stalls them like it should, just like Humility or EE can. I think you underestimae it and obviously don't know how to play with it.

Adan
04-27-2008, 04:51 PM
EE is still 3 mana. EE is a great card and I am not saying you should cut it, but they play diferent roles. EE takes care of a lot of things like CB, Aether Vial, and hits a ton of creatures, but you shouldn't think of it as a sweeper. Wrath and EE are very different.

Those 3 goblins will still kill you and EE will most likely go 1 for 1 with a goblin. You are saying how Wrath is weak, but what do you put in its place? It fills the must needed role against aggro and still beats goblins. Make that 3 for 1 trade and then counter or stifle Ringleader.

All I see you do is say that goblins are good and Wrath can't beat them. That is not right. It stalls them like it should, just like Humility or EE can. I think you underestimae it and obviously don't know how to play with it.

Excellent post.

Engineered Explosives is a ultra versatile card. Against Goblins, if use it just to deal with Aether Vial most of the time since Aether Vial is the card I am afraid of the most.
of you can deal with Aether Vial, the chances that you can abuse Standstill to stall the game a littlebit to buy youself some time (or at least CA if the Goblin player breakes it right after you played it, which is actually clever) to get Wrath of God online (which IS a sweeper) or Wish -> E.Tutor -> Humility.

Even if the Goblin player doesn't overextends it's not bad at all since it makes him slightly more vulnerable to Mishra and sportemoval.

If you play UWb Cunning Landstill well against Goblins, it's easy to get into a dominant position (which wins you the game in the end). Game 2 you also have the possibility to hardlock the Goblinman by resolving Humility + Engineered Plague. No matter which card you resolve first, both of them can buy you a lot of time.

I played against Goblins on our Legacyevent this month, I really think this Landstill variant has got the best ways to deal with Goblins without sucking against the rest of the meta. I still think UR Landstill has got the most favourable matchup against Goblins, but I think it's not really competitive in the current meta.

Citrus-God
04-27-2008, 07:38 PM
In Cunning Landstill, if you run Red instead of Green, what are your wish targets?

-Price of Progress

Which would be bomb against 43 Land and Aggro Loam.

-Hide // Seek

IMO, better than Disenchant. Very versatile and can be played earlier than Extirpate.

-Odds // Ends

A little clunky... Odds is amazing for counter wars and draw spells. Ends would be used sometimes, but no very often. IMO, better than wasting an EE on a couple Geese.

- Firestorm

A card used widely in T1 Tog decks. Kills weenies... not sure you want to discard 5 cards to kill a Goyf.

- Mogg Salavage/Rack and Ruin

General utility...

- Sirocco

A bomb in the mirror... unfortunately, Extirpate may very well still be better.

- 2-3 REB effects

Helps against other Blue decks. Good against Breakfast.

This is also a debate to see which color is a better 4th color, Green or Red.

Ch@os
04-27-2008, 08:40 PM
WTF? A 4th Color? In UWb Cunning Landstill is no 4th color needed, the manabase will become really shitty and there is no need for some red or green SB Spells. Theres no problem you cannot handle with 3 colors.

Citrus-God
04-28-2008, 01:42 AM
WTF? A 4th Color? In UWb Cunning Landstill is no 4th color needed, the manabase will become really shitty and there is no need for some red or green SB Spells. Theres no problem you cannot handle with 3 colors.

Funny... thing is, Cunning Landstill has always ran 4 colors. Dont you ever see the mana base konsultant played way back when? Well, my suggestion here is, instead of G (which has Savannah and Tropical Island), I suggest Red in it's place (with Volcanic Island and Plateau instead) to play Price of Progress in the board.

diffy
04-28-2008, 02:04 AM
Funny... thing is, Cunning Landstill has always ran 4 colors. Dont you ever see the mana base konsultant played way back when?

For reference, here (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=147738&postcount=303)'s the list he's talking about.

Now, I don't think that any splash colour for only Cunning Wish targets is needed:
The listed options do nothing that already existing options can't do too:
Hide/Seek seems like the best option mentioned because of the double Extirpate/Disenchant effect but I still think that its not needed because you can run a better Disenchant effect (Return to Dust makes card advantage and prevents the opponent drawing/cantriping/tutoring back into his stuff)
and because the Extirpate effect is no-where near as strong as the real card which you can already play. Sirroco is just unneeded as you'd rather go for an Extirpate against control anyway. Price of Progress is... narrow tech at best because against anything that is not the non-existent 43lands.deck, you will inflict yourself way more damage than you'll deal to your opponent. Also, against 43lands you already have some tools in the wishboard: you can go for an Extirpate to deal with their recursion engine and then for an Enlightened Tutor [for Crucible of Worlds] to deal with their manlands. Odds/Ends is pretty bad in my book: unreliable and clunky as you stated - it will just clog your wishboard and you'll only rarely wish for it. Firestorm: pretty slow against Empty the Warrens/Goblins - if you have stabilized (i.e. reached the mana for Cunning Wish into stuff) against the later, you'd rather go for Enlightened Tutor [for Humility]; against the former, Firestorm is an option but more and more combo decks are letting go of Empty the Warrens and even if you happen to face it, you can always wish for Enlightened Tutor [for Engineered Explosives] to get out of the situation. On top of that, you also don't want to destabilize your manabase for more narrow and unneeded wishboard cards: running as many basics as possible is true tech: being able to dodge Wastelands and Blood Moons/Back to Basics is pretty good especially since those cards are played to make the Landstill matchup better. If all, I'd splash green on top of UWb - to support Pernicious Deeds in metas where it is better than Wrath of God (i.e. where there's not a lot of aggro and more random stuff like Affinity or Stax)... then you'd have this (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=147738&postcount=303) kind of list though.

Adan
04-28-2008, 10:27 AM
Cunning Landstill is already good enough with 3 colors.

Now that we have access to Wheel of Sun and moon, we could MAYBE MAYBE MAYBE even cut black from the entire deck. Wheel of Sun and Moon fixes quite every problem UWb landstill has got:

Stupid recursion engines (Witness-Volrath's Stronghold), Loam Engines (43Land, Aggro Loam) and is - against ichorid - the 2nd Turn Leyline for WW, which is easy to fulfill when we play a better, consistent, 2colored manabase.

But I still can't imagine whether it is smart to cut Black since Extirpates and Engineered Plagues are very versatile. Even Slaughter Pact is good in some scenarios, but they almost never happen, because they are too utopic (I'm thinking of the Dragonstompy matchup).

But here are the latest records of UWb Landstill:

http://www.deckcheck.net/event.php?event=Legacy+Fortnightly+04%2F08

http://www.deckcheck.net/event.php?event=Legacy+-+Berlin+-+April+2008

1st Place, twice.

freakish777
04-28-2008, 10:56 AM
Now that we have access to Wheel of Sun and moon, we could MAYBE MAYBE MAYBE even cut black from the entire deck.

Why would you ever run Wheel of Sun and Moon over Tormod's Crypt?

Sure if they have back up Loams (or a second Squee in Survival), you need another Tormod's Crypt, but that shouldn't be a huge issue. Not to mention if you've got Academy Ruins, you shut down graveyard strategies permanently, and have a faster response with the 0cc of Crypt (necessary against Ichorid). Against Volrath's Stronghold, you should already have an alright match between Swords RFGing their guys, Crucible + Factory chumping until you find Swords, and Wasteland (if you run it).

I was under the impression that the entire reason for running Extirpate over Tormod's was so you could Cunning Wish for it. Wheel of Sun and Moon doesn't solve this dilemma, and is an expensive spell (2 colored mana, neither of which can be paid for by a Basic Island).

Adan
04-28-2008, 11:09 AM
Why would you ever run Wheel of Sun and Moon over Tormod's Crypt?

Sure if they have back up Loams (or a second Squee in Survival), you need another Tormod's Crypt, but that shouldn't be a huge issue. Not to mention if you've got Academy Ruins, you shut down graveyard strategies permanently, and have a faster response with the 0cc of Crypt (necessary against Ichorid). Against Volrath's Stronghold, you should already have an alright match between Swords RFGing their guys, Crucible + Factory chumping until you find Swords, and Wasteland (if you run it).

I was under the impression that the entire reason for running Extirpate over Tormod's was so you could Cunning Wish for it. Wheel of Sun and Moon doesn't solve this dilemma, and is an expensive spell (2 colored mana, neither of which can be paid for by a Basic Island).

Because Wheel of Sun and Moon can't be needled or shut down by Chalice 0 and that you can't pay WW when you are already playing 2 Plains (3 in Clemens new list), it's a lie that you can't drop it 2nd Turn consequently.

And as I already stated, Wheel of Sun and Moon is simply Leyline of the Void for WW, there's a huge difference between Ley-Line and Tormod's Crypt.

Tormod's Crypt doesn't prevent topdecking. With Wheel on the board, the opponent won't get the possibility to start his engine or restore it.

Loam engines are eventually broken by Wheel, and it's quite useful against Ichorid. Tormod's Crypt recursion isn't good since it is carddisadvantage and slow as hell, you are always skipping 1 turn if you recurr it.

And that "you have StoP and blablah" argument is theoretically right, but I lost against such a recursion engine because i didn't draw any of my 6 remaining outs, so I'm also doubting that part of theory right now.

diffy
04-28-2008, 11:30 AM
The strongest point of Wheel of Sun and Moon (http://magiccards.info/shm/en/243.html) is that it makes the Aggro Loam matchup (something like the worst matchup you can face) better because it stops their Card Advantage engine as well as their creatures (it's a replacement effect so that Countryside Crusher doesn't get counters) - it will never be able to fully replace Extirpate though because it is way to versatile and too good in too many matchups (Control Mirrors, Threshold, Survival, Combo etc.).
It is definitely better than Tormod's Crypt though - if only for being a continuous effect and for being better against Life from the Loam (they can just cycle-dredge in response to the Crypt activation to render Crypt near to useless turning it into only a small speed bumb).

I currently have no clue though how to fit it into the sideboard.
For reference, this is my current board:

/// Sideboard (15 cards)
4 Meddling Mage
3 Engineered Plague
3 Extirpate
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Return to Dust

I could see cutting an Extirpate (somewhat same goal as the Wheel), the Slaugher Pact (underwhelming - until you need it) and an Engineered Plague (Goblins isn't that bad a matchup, still these are very nice because of flexibility) for three Wheel of Sun and Moon but I don't know if that will hurt any matchups too badly - especially cutting down on Extirpate (most boarded in card) seems like a bad idea.

Also, it's nice to see people picking up the deck and doing well with it!

freakish777
04-28-2008, 06:39 PM
I suppose if you guys see that much Life from the Loam, then Wheel could be better. However, none of the arguments provided convince me that it's superior in the Ichorid match up, (where having a turn 1 drop as opposed to a turn 2 drop is all the difference in the world, considering you're likely to be on the draw in game 3 if you even win game 2). I've never been comfortable giving a combo deck an extra turn.

diffy
04-28-2008, 06:56 PM
I've never been comfortable giving a combo deck an extra turn.

This is actually not relevant at all because Ichorid will always slow roll against you going for the DDD-route (Draw, Discard, Dredge) as it can't afford to give you multiple Time-Walks if you happen to hold a Force of Will for their discard outlet so that they'll have to draw back up to 8 cards in order to start doing stuff again.
Also, I'm certainly not thinking about completely removing Extirpate for Wheel of Sun and Moon because, as stated, Extirpate is too versatile to be completely cut - just see it as a complement: normally you'd have 3-4 Extirpates, after Shadowmoor, you'll have 2-3 Extirpates and more hate in the form of Wheel of Sun and Moon making you actually have more threats against Ichorid than before.

Citrus-God
04-29-2008, 01:02 AM
I cant ever see Extirpates being cut from this deck. Extirpates is your MVP in control match-ups and they take care of troublesome threats after you deal with the first copy, such as Armageddon, Goyfs, and such...

freakish777
04-29-2008, 11:29 AM
This is actually not relevant at all because Ichorid will always slow roll against you going for the DDD-route (Draw, Discard, Dredge) as it can't afford to give you multiple Time-Walks

Always is a strong word, I can't tell you the number of time's I've been playing against Ichorid, and they have an opening hand along the lines of LED, City of Brass, Dredge card, Putrid Imp or Putrid Imp, Breakthrough, Dredge card, Gemstone Mine or LED, LED, Cephalid Colesium, Dredge card, Deep Analysis. Granted those are the hands that stick out, and I'm sure I remember getting slow-rolled less, but that doesn't change the fact that with 12 to 13 discard outlets they have reasonable chances of getting 2 in their opening hand and softening the blow of Force of Will. Additionally, if they simply play the odds that you don't have Force + a blue card in your opener, they're resolving their first turn discard outlet over 60% of the time (obviously, I'd want 50 or so test games in this match up to try and determine how often they win after resolving their first turn discard outlet before making any claims about whether or not playing the odds of your opponent not having a Force of Will is the correct play for the Ichorid player to make, it would have to be about 90% of the time, which seems like a stretch). So the better the player, the better read they'll have on your Force of Will and slow roll it when they know they need safety, and the more likely they'll accurately call your bluff on FoW and attempt to get their engine rolling before you find your hate cards. While I think Wheel is a good card, I'm not convinced it's good enough to hands down replace Tormod's Crypt as the right card 100% of the time. Obviously in a metagame full of Loam decks, I think your argument for Wheel is valid, and makes it in over Crypt. But I think time, testing, and tournament reports will tell if Wheel is the correct hate card against Ichorid.

Aggro_zombies
04-30-2008, 01:48 AM
Quick question: has anyone thought of Kor Haven in a largely white/blue Landstill deck? It seems like the perfect way to neutralize a Tarmogoyf under Standstill and can hold the line until you find Swords. You'd only want one or two...the former if you use Tolaria West.

Citrus-God
04-30-2008, 07:09 AM
Quick question: has anyone thought of Kor Haven in a largely white/blue Landstill deck? It seems like the perfect way to neutralize a Tarmogoyf under Standstill and can hold the line until you find Swords. You'd only want one or two...the former if you use Tolaria West.

To tell the truth, if we want a card like Kor Haven, we'd probably play Kjeldoran Outpost. It accomplishes the same thing Kor Haven does for the price of one land, but the output is that you can play it aggressively later as the game progresses. It also produces White which is awesome.

Mental
05-01-2008, 12:37 AM
EE is still 3 mana. EE is a great card and I am not saying you should cut it, but they play diferent roles. EE takes care of a lot of things like CB, Aether Vial, and hits a ton of creatures, but you shouldn't think of it as a sweeper. Wrath and EE are very different.

Those 3 goblins will still kill you and EE will most likely go 1 for 1 with a goblin. You are saying how Wrath is weak, but what do you put in its place? It fills the must needed role against aggro and still beats goblins. Make that 3 for 1 trade and then counter or stifle Ringleader.

All I see you do is say that goblins are good and Wrath can't beat them. That is not right. It stalls them like it should, just like Humility or EE can. I think you underestimae it and obviously don't know how to play with it.

You have a point, and you're right that I haven't put very much time into testing WoG. However, what you've said doesn't change the fact that it's only decent in one MU and even there isn't devastating. However, I have to agree that if you're worried about Goblins a better alternative does not yet exist.

Citrus-God
05-01-2008, 08:46 AM
I was testing a list that was a cross between the EPIC lists and the konsultant list. The reason why I mixed the two together was because they each had each other's strengths and weaknesses. The konsultant lists werent aggressive enough and the EPIC list has a terrible fallback when it loses a Monastery.

The konsultant lists has DoJ, which proved very useful in the Dragon Stompy MU. Just fetching out a basic Plains and then cycling the DoJ is amazing. You can also slowly answer Dragon Stompy's threats using the singleton Plains.

// Mana 25
4 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Nantuko Monastery
4 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Plains
2 Island

2 Eternal Dragon


// Spells 36
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Fact or Fiction (or 2 FoF to make 60 cards)
3 Cunning Wish
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Wrath of God
2 Humility
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Decree of Justice


// Sideboard 15
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Return to Dust
2 Krosan Grip
3 Extirpate

1 Decree of Justice
4 Hydroblast

slyfer
05-03-2008, 03:17 PM
Why not 2x Jace in place of fact or fiction? He is awesome...

Adan
05-03-2008, 04:08 PM
I was testing a list that was a cross between the EPIC lists and the konsultant list. The reason why I mixed the two together was because they each had each other's strengths and weaknesses. The konsultant lists werent aggressive enough and the EPIC list has a terrible fallback when it loses a Monastery.

The konsultant lists has DoJ, which proved very useful in the Dragon Stompy MU. Just fetching out a basic Plains and then cycling the DoJ is amazing. You can also slowly answer Dragon Stompy's threats using the singleton Plains.

// Mana 25
4 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Nantuko Monastery
4 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Plains
2 Island

2 Eternal Dragon


// Spells 36
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Fact or Fiction (or 2 FoF to make 60 cards)
3 Cunning Wish
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Wrath of God
2 Humility
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Decree of Justice


// Sideboard 15
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Return to Dust
2 Krosan Grip
3 Extirpate

1 Decree of Justice
4 Hydroblast

Since Der_imaginäre_Freund is busy with building bridges on some stupid browsergame, I think I#ll type my impression of the deck:

I don't like it.

The only reason to splash green should be Pernicious Deed. But Pernicious Deed is - against some matchups - terrible since they give the opponent 1 additional turn to beat you for infinite damage beforce you get your WoG-effect. And during that single turn, you open yourself up to several things like Needle or enchantmentremoval.

Nantuko Monastery is a win-more card and dead in the earlygame since it can't be activated before you reach Threshold and does only produce colorless Mana.

And the amount of Enchantment-removal in the sideboard is a littlebit overkill.

You should also try Wheel of Sun and Moon as a sideboardcard since it fixes a lot of problems (actually Life from the Loam) and it's a nice addition against Ichorid (actually a Leyline for WW).

Playing at least 1 Crucible also seems to be necessary to me since it rocks the mirrormatch.

And therefor, I'd suggest you play Wastelands again. This should come close of what DERF has suggested to me after my suck-out at our local tourney (landed on 9th place instead of 3rd place, stupid me):

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [TE] Wasteland
3 [B] Plains (1)
4 [B] Tundra
2 [B] Island (3)
2 [B] Underground Sea
1 [B] Scrubland
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)

// Creatures
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Standstill
3 [JU] Cunning Wish
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [10E] Wrath of God
2 [TE] Humility
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
4 [MM] Counterspell
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [TSP] Return to Dust
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 1 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [SHA] Wheel of Sun and Moon

But actually, Fact or Fiction is also not necessary, you already have enough ways to generate CA via EE, WoG, Decree and Standstill.

Citrus-God
05-03-2008, 05:13 PM
I don't like it.


Opinions are opinions. But if there's one thing we both agree on, it's that konsultant's list is amazing. I still dont agree with the cut of Fact or Fiction though.


The only reason to splash green should be Pernicious Deed. But Pernicious Deed is - against some matchups - terrible since they give the opponent 1 additional turn to beat you for infinite damage beforce you get your WoG-effect. And during that single turn, you open yourself up to several things like Needle or enchantmentremoval.

I'm glad we agree on Deed. I should have elaborated on my reasoning for not running Deed besides my low Black sources count. But yes, those are the reasons why I dropped Deed.



Nantuko Monastery is a win-more card and dead in the earlygame since it can't be activated before you reach Threshold and does only produce colorless Mana.

Why you run Fact or Fiction; it's for Monastery. Also, I wouldnt really claim that Nantuko Monastery is win-more. It's actually a win condition to end the game very quickly. I have kept tabs on scenarios where Monastery and DoJ would be helpful. Considering that I dont care much for Stronghold anymore because I have Humility, I have opt to run both win conditions. Monastery for midgame pressure and DoJ for an effective late game win condition as well as surprise blockers.

Also, Aggression = Mistakes. Those mistakes could be a misplay or playing too-straightforward against you. The more pressure you apply, the more mistakes your opponent's make. This is why I love Monastery. If I dont have that much control of the game, I can still try and induce a mistake from my opponent so that I do win the game.


You should also try Wheel of Sun and Moon as a sideboardcard since it fixes a lot of problems (actually Life from the Loam) and it's a nice addition against Ichorid (actually a Leyline for WW).


I was thinking about that actually. Being able to deal with Ichorid is baller.


Playing at least 1 Crucible also seems to be necessary to me since it rocks the mirrormatch.


1-ofs in Landstill seem random to me. I'll try out the singleton CoW.


And therefor, I'd suggest you play Wastelands again. This should come close of what DERF has suggested to me after my suck-out at our local tourney (landed on 9th place instead of 3rd place, stupid me):

They do deal with random crap like Volrath's Stronghold. But I have Humility...


But actually, Fact or Fiction is also not necessary, you already have enough ways to generate CA via EE, WoG, Decree and Standstill.

Personally, I believe that Fact or Fiction is a must in a deck like Landstill. Standstill is at times, a very unreliable card, and like Blood Moon, you must play it during a neutral game game state.

Also, I believe that this deck doesnt have enough draw. I hate not running Fact or Fiction because the deck has terrible topdecks, imo. The only way to prevent these bad topdecks is to run more draw. IMO, the more draw I have, the more options, freedom, and control I have during gameplay.

I also dont side out Fact or Fiction. I always leave them in, even against combo. Fact or Fiction is just a good draw spell and allows me to enable Monastery. It also digs for all my needed tools to win the game as well as surviving the game.

diffy
05-03-2008, 06:12 PM
Konsultant's list is amazing.

I actually don't know who first came up with the idea of Cunning Wish in Landstill, but konsultant and we Germans (Marius+me) were pretty close - irrelevant to the discussion though. It's also sad that konsultant doesn't work on Landstill any more.


I wouldnt really claim that Nantuko Monastery is win-more. It's actually a win condition to end the game very quickly.

Nantuko Monastery is just pretty mediocre in my opinion: it requires you to dilute your manabase by splashing yet another colour making you more vulnerable to Blood Moon/Back to Basics and by being just a colourless source, it is literally dead early (before you reach Threshold - this will be until quite late in the midgame if you don't play the also mediocre Fact or Fiction -- unlike Decree of Justice which can be a Fog + Cantrip early). It's also pretty mana-intensive as a wincon (3mana a turn aren't a small investment).



Also, Aggression = Mistakes. Those mistakes could be a misplay or playing too-straightforward against you. The more pressure you apply, the more mistakes your opponent's make. This is why I love Monastery. If I dont have that much control of the game, I can still try and induce a mistake from my opponent so that I do win the game.


Now this is where our play philosophies differ... I play this deck very conservatively and only swing with manlands when I'm in full control of the game - it's not worth loosing the land drop or the mana for control elements (Counterspell, Cunning Wish etc.) just to deal a pathetic 2 damage; also, against everything but combo, it doesn't really matter when you win. I'll just sit on my cards and wait for a Decree of Justice / Standstill and then proceed to win.



I was thinking about that actually. Being able to deal with Ichorid is baller.


Your Ichorid matchup isn't that bad already as postboard you have 3 Engineered Explosives, 3 Engineered Plague, 2 Humility, 4 Swords to Plowshares and 4 Meddling Mages to stall them - Wheel of Sun and Moon is rather for the Aggro Loam matchup because it stops all their threats (Countryside Crusher doesn't get counters any more) and their card advantage engine (Life from the Loam).



1-ofs in Landstill seem random to me. I'll try out the singleton CoW.


The 1off isn't that random - you have Cunning Wish for Enlightened Tutor to fetch it when you need it... in some matchups Crucible is essential, in most matchups it is quite good in the late mid- to early late-game (and later obviously) but it is pretty clunky and worse than a basic land in the early game (having to tap out and needing a fetchland to assure land drops)... one as a Tutor target/late game draw is therefore the best number up to now.



They do deal with random crap like Volrath's Stronghold. But I have Humility...


This statement is true, but flawed: if you have Humility, you just win against anything that is not combo - so I'd rather have things that help against otherwise problematic cards when I don't have Humility. Also, the singleton Wasteland (and the Tolaria West to get it out) is pretty good in the mirror and allows the Crucible+Wasteland lock as well as some nasty moves with Extirpate (especially good against NQG).



Personally, I believe that Fact or Fiction is a must in a deck like Landstill. Standstill is at times, a very unreliable card, and like Blood Moon, you must play it during a neutral game game state.
Also, I believe that this deck doesnt have enough draw. I hate not running Fact or Fiction because the deck has terrible topdecks, imo. The only way to prevent these bad topdecks is to run more draw. IMO, the more draw I have, the more options, freedom, and control I have during gameplay.


I don't really like Fact or Fiction in Landstill as it is pretty clunky / mana-intensive and will only create a hard +1 CA most of the time (your opponent will normally split the good cards for the current situation on the 2card pile).
Also, I've never really felt the need for more draw: you have as much 'draw' as the non-Cunning Wish lists... you just replaced Fact or Fiction with Cunning Wish which creates virtual Card Advantage by getting you just what you need which is as good or better than 'hard' Card Advantage most of the time.
As a last reason, I wouldn't know what to cut from my current list (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2559348&postcount=12) to include any: 25 lands are essential in my opinion as you basically win whenever you get your manabase right and if you hit your first 4+ land drops.


Sideboard incl. Wheel of Sun and Moon

I wouldn't cut down on the Meddling Mages as they are your most versatile sideboard card - to include Wheel of Sun and Moon, I'd rather cut the Slaughter Pact, an Engineered Plague and an Extirpate (maybe not) from the 'standard' sideboard. I don't know if 2 Wheels won't suffice though because you still have Enlightened Tutor to complement the numbers.

Citrus-God
05-04-2008, 02:39 AM
I actually don't know who first came up with the idea of Cunning Wish in Landstill, but konsultant and we Germans (Marius+me) were pretty close - irrelevant to the discussion though. It's also sad that konsultant doesn't work on Landstill any more.

Yeah... that sucks... he's probably the pioneer of the modern builds of Cunning-Landstill.



Nantuko Monastery is just pretty mediocre in my opinion: it requires you to dilute your manabase by splashing yet another colour making you more vulnerable to Blood Moon/Back to Basics and by being just a colourless source, it is literally dead early (before you reach Threshold - this will be until quite late in the midgame if you don't play the also mediocre Fact or Fiction -- unlike Decree of Justice which can be a Fog + Cantrip early). It's also pretty mana-intensive as a wincon (3mana a turn aren't a small investment).

I'd take Fact or Fiction before Monastery any day. Fact or Fiction just does more draws cards for me. I can use those cards I draw to leverage myself into a dominant position. Monastery just forces position if it can go the distance.


Now this is where our play philosophies differ... I play this deck very conservatively and only swing with manlands when I'm in full control of the game - it's not worth loosing the land drop or the mana for control elements (Counterspell, Cunning Wish etc.) just to deal a pathetic 2 damage; also, against everything but combo, it doesn't really matter when you win. I'll just sit on my cards and wait for a Decree of Justice / Standstill and then proceed to win.

I am known for playing decks aggressively. Like control, which I am very known to play aggressively. Even in the UW Landstill era, I was known for fast-playing that deck (go auto-pilot decks!) because it goes to time if I sit there trying to make a decision with a deck that was pretty easy to use.



Your Ichorid matchup isn't that bad already as postboard you have 3 Engineered Explosives, 3 Engineered Plague, 2 Humility, 4 Swords to Plowshares and 4 Meddling Mages to stall them - Wheel of Sun and Moon is rather for the Aggro Loam matchup because it stops all their threats (Countryside Crusher doesn't get counters any more) and their card advantage engine (Life from the Loam).


I suppose this makes sense.


The 1off isn't that random - you have Cunning Wish for Enlightened Tutor to fetch it when you need it... in some matchups Crucible is essential, in most matchups it is quite good in the late mid- to early late-game (and later obviously) but it is pretty clunky and worse than a basic land in the early game (having to tap out and needing a fetchland to assure land drops)... one as a Tutor target/late game draw is therefore the best number up to now.

That's kinda clever. I have always been a fan of playing Mystical Tutor to go fetch a Swords or WoG or even a Decree.



This statement is true, but flawed: if you have Humility, you just win against anything that is not combo - so I'd rather have things that help against otherwise problematic cards when I don't have Humility. Also, the singleton Wasteland (and the Tolaria West to get it out) is pretty good in the mirror and allows the Crucible+Wasteland lock as well as some nasty moves with Extirpate (especially good against NQG).

Tolaria West... thats kinda cool. I think even fetching an EE is kinda awesome as well.

Humility is an amazing card. It's like, a bomb, but in Landstill. I usually think of them as Standstills 5-6.




I don't really like Fact or Fiction in Landstill as it is pretty clunky / mana-intensive and will only create a hard +1 CA most of the time (your opponent will normally split the good cards for the current situation on the 2card pile).

So that 2-card pile has quality in it. And is Standstill anymore different? You draw 1-2 useful cards off it and the 3rd is a Land.


Also, I've never really felt the need for more draw: you have as much 'draw' as the non-Cunning Wish lists... you just replaced Fact or Fiction with Cunning Wish which creates virtual Card Advantage by getting you just what you need which is as good or better than 'hard' Card Advantage most of the time.

Yes, but Extirpates arent hot all the time. Besides, I can at least chain draw spells if I have FoF. Chaining draw is amazing because it's how you beat the crap out of decks like Tog.


As a last reason, I wouldn't know what to cut from my current list (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2559348&postcount=12) to include any: 25 lands are essential in my opinion as you basically win whenever you get your manabase right and if you hit your first 4+ land drops.

But the original lists run 23-24. You only need 25-26 sources. 27 is stretching it a little. Besides, with all that land, you could, ya know, play FoFs.


I wouldn't cut down on the Meddling Mages as they are your most versatile sideboard card - to include Wheel of Sun and Moon, I'd rather cut the Slaughter Pact, an Engineered Plague and an Extirpate (maybe not) from the 'standard' sideboard. I don't know if 2 Wheels won't suffice though because you still have Enlightened Tutor to complement the numbers.

Personally, I dont even think you need to run Plague. Extirpate is all you need to beat Goblins. Even against Ichorid, I would much rather have 4 Extirpates.

konsultant
05-07-2008, 09:27 PM
This is all damn silly talk that I would ever stop working on Landstill!!!
I had merely taken a brake to try and see the format from an aggro control perspective and figure out how to solve some of the problems I have been having. I had come up with the idea of running Cunning Wish independently but that is not to say that my German counterparts did not come up with it first. I do claim to be the first [to the absolute best of my knowledge] to run Return to Dust or use the Wish's in conjunction with Pacts.

I believe I have found the answer to the Landstill problem: Runed Halo. This card is fucking amazing. It stops Belcher, Tendrils, Tarmogoyf, Price of Progress, Cabal Therapy, Goblin Lackey, Goblin Piledriver, Sutured Ghoul, Nantuko Monastary, Vexing Shusher can suck ass it still won't get Tendrils through Halo, Random shit people shouldn't be playing and damn near any other problem for that damn small cost of 2 mana. This thing is Ivory Mask but better and for half the mana.

This card is Meddling Mage the way mage was intended to be. Now obviously there is the whole Krosan Grip thing, but the fact of the matter is that I want my opponents to have to board into enchanment removal. That's card slots taken away from other things. Not to mention if you pair Halo with Humility whitch card are they going to grip off? Whitchever one they leave can easily cost them the game. I have been working on various lists with this card since I read it on the spoiler and I don't have a tournament proven list yet.... but I will be playing my new list at an upcoming major event. I will post a tournament report afterwords with the list I have used.

As much as I absolutly love the power of Cunning Wish, I regrettably think that they are to slow at the moment.:cry: The card shine's the best in the control mirror whitch I atleast have not played in a good six months. I give this advice: try to stick with Blue/White and consider using Halo paired with Humility. The extra number of Enchantments is hard for most any deck out there to get rid off and they are usefull in damn near every match. I'm toying between main decking the Halo's or boarding into them. They sit in the SB at the moment. Against creature decks without any huge bombs I am considering a strategy of boarding down to just 4 Counterspells and boarding in the 4 Halo's paired with the Landstill draw engine and all of the removal packed into Blue/White builds. I have to admit so far the deck has done ridiculously good in testing. The deck needs to be fast in it's disruption, versitile in it's disruption and have a huge power level to it's cards. Runed Halo does all of that and make's playing Standstill easy again. I have toyed with the Plainswalker's and Tolaria West and all the other Techy stuff that's out there but the fact of the matter is this: it's all either too slow or not powerfull enough in the late game to take advantage of your larger mana resources.

@Marius: if you want a copy of exactly what I am working on at the moment PM me, it's still in the developmental stage's and I wouldn't mind a second set of skilled eyes for some final tweaking.

@Wizards of the Coast: When the hell are you going to print the White Enchantment regrow land?

Edit: After going back to read the entire thread I saw previous mention of Runed Halo, why not more focus on this card?

Illissius
05-08-2008, 03:28 AM
I believe I have found the answer to the Landstill problem: Runed Halo. This card is fucking amazing. It stops Belcher, Tendrils, Tarmogoyf, Price of Progress, Cabal Therapy, Goblin Lackey, Goblin Piledriver, Sutured Ghoul, Nantuko Monastary, Vexing Shusher can suck ass it still won't get Tendrils through Halo, Random shit people shouldn't be playing and damn near any other problem for that damn small cost of 2 mana.

Finally. I'm not the only one who sees it, then. For a while there, I thought I might've been wrong, if I was the only one who liked it. I must say, though, that Halo seems like an eminently maindeck sort of card, because its very strength is its flexibility. It's not great against control (removal generally isn't), but pretty good against mostly everything else.

Another card I've been looking at on and off recently is Ancestral Vision. I haven't done any testing on it so this may be a silly idea, but with good enough early defenses against both aggro and combo (and Halo helps with both), might it be worth giving a shot?

Citrus-God
05-11-2008, 12:14 AM
Personally, I think this deck needs more fetchlands and another Basic Island. Blood Moon is a really stupid card and that we need more ways to find Basic Islands. Eternal Dragons are amazing too; they find Basic Plains.

We dont really need the random Tropical Island and the Savannah anymore. We should replace them with 2 Deltas or something.

from Cairo
05-11-2008, 12:45 AM
We dont really need the random Tropical Island and the Savannah anymore.

Yea, no kidding.


WTF? A 4th Color? In UWb Cunning Landstill is no 4th color needed, the manabase will become really shitty and there is no need for some red or green SB Spells. Theres no problem you cannot handle with 3 colors.


Now, I don't think that any splash colour for only Cunning Wish targets is needed...


Cunning Landstill is already good enough with 3 colors.




Lands 25
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Island
3 Plains
2 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
2 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins

I've since replaced the 2nd Wasteland with a single Tolaria West. And have had very few issues running against Bloodmoon effects.

diffy
05-11-2008, 05:15 AM
I've since replaced the 2nd Wasteland with a single Tolaria West. And have had very few issues running against Bloodmoon effects.

I'd also replace one Island with a singleton Scrubland to be able to fetch a black source via Eternal Dragon.

This is my current manabase:

// Lands (25)
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
2 Island
3 Plains
1 Tolaria West
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins

1 Eternal Dragon

I'm currently thinking of cutting a dual (either a Tundra or a U-Sea) for another basic Island.

konsultant
05-11-2008, 02:27 PM
For what it's worth I'm still running the same mana base with the Tropical Island and the Savannah and I'm not having Bloodmoon issues. It also give's you the threat of cards you may not even be playing. For instance if they see green Mana it's normally a safe assumption that you are running Krosan Grip whether you are or not doesn't really matter if they have to play like you are. This obviously isn't as effective for local events where people may know your entire list but for large events it can be an easy advantage you can give yourself. I also am not happy only being able to get Explosive's up to 3 counter's, in my experience I have gone up to four on a number of occasions. You would be surprises just how many time's my Tropical Island gets wasted instead of my Tundra because they think they are color screwing me. I'd also like to add that I play against Bloodmoon just about every week.

I'm still trying to get the final tweaks in regarding Runed Halo, it has the potential to be a MD card and I'm usually happy to draw it but I haven't had enough time to get the extensive testing in that I want before making the switch into the MD.

FlavaSava
05-11-2008, 03:25 PM
How looks your list with Jace in it? I find him amazing. But i don´t know what to cut for him.

EDIT: Against which deck do you board MMs? and What do you board against Mirror?

from Cairo
05-11-2008, 10:35 PM
I'm currently thinking of cutting a dual (either a Tundra or a U-Sea) for another basic Island.

// Lands (25)
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
2 Island
3 Plains
1 Tolaria West
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins

1 Eternal Dragon


I could definitely see the logic in dropping the U-Sea for Basic Island. Preboard they function very similar in the sense that if you're only using it for Blue spells, and having the Basic can be much better. In cases where you need Black for either a Wished Extirpate or an EE@3 you have 6 Fetches and a Dragon to pull up a Black source, not to mention the biggest EE@3 targets turn all your nonbasics into a 3rd color anyway.

I'm going to try it out anyway, 3 Island, 3 Plains, 4 Tundra, 1 Underground, 1 Scrub, 6 Fetches, 4 Factory, 3 Tolaria/Waste/Ruins

NQN
05-12-2008, 01:38 PM
I run that manabase and it works perfect. I always beat DS.

thefreakaccident
05-19-2008, 06:57 PM
I just recently got first at my local tournament, there were like 20 people there... I played against goyf sligh (moat + pulse both games) 2-0, WR control (some scrub with LD effects.deck) 2-0, UW fish (main deck needle & mage) 1-1-1, Uwg fish w/ goyf 2-0, paired against my teammate finals split into me with first and him with second... there was no T8 face off.

I was in shock the game I lost against the fish deck, game two he got needle on explosives and on factory, then forced down 3!!! mages (through an early vial) on wrath, humility, and swords... I lost with a hand of notsogood goodies.

I beat him badly game one however, and was in a winning position to win G3, but time was called, so who knows.


I am considering moat for a particular metagame, would this be a bad decision?

Adan
05-20-2008, 08:29 AM
I am considering moat for a particular metagame, would this be a bad decision?

No, since it's better against Ichorid for example. It might also help against some Zoo Aggro variants where Humility is slightly weaker (I got annihilated by Giant Growth, followed by double Berserk once...).

But generally, Humility is better since it has got way more synergies with the deck.

If you play Moat, Decree of Justice becomes worse, so you might substitute them with something else like a 2nd Dragon or Hoofprints...

Citrus-God
05-20-2008, 09:16 AM
If you play Moat, Decree of Justice becomes worse, so you might substitute them with something else like a 2nd Dragon or Hoofprints...

So you hardcast DoJ for Angel tokens.

Seregrauko
05-20-2008, 07:51 PM
Most of the time wouldn't Moat beat Humility??

How many decks pack around 6+ flying critters that you can't handle with WoG, Explosives and StP?

You can still get your ass kicked by a mob of 1/1 vanillas..

I'm not convinced at all about which card is the better. But for me it looks like Moat finishes alot more game 1's. And isn't that what Landstill aims to do?

I'm a fan of E. Tutor (yes it's card-disadvantage..). I my eyes it serves as cheaper tutor than Wish. Plus it finds Moat/Humility which ends alot of games. Or so I heard..
EDIT: E. Tutor EOT for turn 2 Standstill is pretty hot in my eyes.. No?

I'm working on a list running 3 E. Tutor and Countertop main. I mostly face alot of control and aggro-control, some aggro and the occasional combo.

Running E. Tutor could open up for some pretty sweet SB options. Allready mentioned are Wheel of Sun and Moon and Runed Halo. Both could be 1-ofs in the board, waiting to serve as tutor-targets game 2+.
Also I'm wondering whether or not Oblivion Ring should be a 1-of in the board. Though 1 for 1 usually isn't hot in control..

Anybody got some experience with E. Tutor and Countertop main? (I realize that Countertop is around 5-6 slots MD which might be cranky.. But I still think E. Tutor is worth it even without the counter-engine..)

Mister Agent
05-20-2008, 08:34 PM
Actually back in the day when I worked heavily on UW landstill I would run exalted angel, and eternal dragon with moat. Which was perfect for the meta when goblins were running around excessively. Nowadays I still think moat should be considered in the modern environment especially in landstill. Definitely moat gives you more avenues to play standstill under pressure.

In fact, moat can be quite effective with runed halo. I have been trying moat with runed halo and it's been working wonders against threshold. Shutdown all of their ground creatures with moat and then naming either mystic enforcer or fledgling dragon with runed halo.

TopGun
05-20-2008, 09:07 PM
Except moat stymies a big part of your win conditions...factories.

Also, moat doesn't stop seige-gang, or any CIP abilities. I'm not saying moat isn't a good card, but I think humility is the correct card.

thefreakaccident
05-20-2008, 09:14 PM
I was thinking about running it in my sideboard for ichorid/threshold... boarding it in against anything else would be retarded.

I still have the 3 plagues in the board for gobbos, and only 2 moats as additional hosers for those special cases.

Mister Agent
05-20-2008, 09:20 PM
Except moat stymies a big part of your win conditions...factories.

Also, moat doesn't stop seige-gang, or any CIP abilities. I'm not saying moat isn't a good card, but I think humility is the correct card.

Your right but then again people run general hate all of the time like wastelands, pithing needles, and etc. However, I don't really seem to have any problems running moat in landstill.

Technically I don't think humility is the standard choice considering there are seemingly countless ways you can build a optimal landstill deck in the right field. In fact, humility and moat can even come down to a metagame call.

TopGun
05-20-2008, 09:27 PM
4x MMage
3x E. Plague
1x BEB
3x Extirpate
1x Return to Dust
1x Slaughter Pact
1x E. Tutor
1x Pulse of the Fields

That's the board. I can see taking out maybe the slaughter pact...but I think I'd want to replace it with extirpate...or wheel of s&m. Not sure what else could come out.

Does the ichorid matchup usually go to turn 4 so you can cast moat? Or would WoS&M be better?...coming down on turn 2?

Moat could be pretty hot against Loam though...but humility works too.

NQN
05-21-2008, 05:39 AM
Slaughter Pact wins 1 Game per tournamet for me. I wouldn´t cut it.

thefreakaccident
05-21-2008, 10:40 AM
With swords, EE, and force; I am usualy able to stall my ichorid opponent for a couple turns (swords Moeba/ichorid... EE tokens for a turn, force enabler like LED/breakthrough)... This is how you stall when they are trying to go for the quick kill... however, they usually try to slow roll me and I usually can get extirpate... I think the wheel would also be good, I may even resort to running crypt, as we can recur it and tutor it. It is also very easy on the main board.

Nosomo.
05-21-2008, 06:44 PM
With swords, EE, and force; I am usualy able to stall my ichorid opponent for a couple turns (swords Moeba/ichorid... EE tokens for a turn, force enabler like LED/breakthrough)... This is how you stall when they are trying to go for the quick kill... however, they usually try to slow roll me and I usually can get extirpate... I think the wheel would also be good, I may even resort to running crypt, as we can recur it and tutor it. It is also very easy on the main board.

wheel would be pretty good for ur build freak but will u be able to consistanly hit the wheel even though u cannot tutor for and have to rely on tripping for it and hopping that they cannot win in time. My opinion keep it the same FOW DD if it comes to that and EE the board.

TopGun
05-22-2008, 04:08 AM
I have a tourney coming up soon. What decks should I be getting the most practice against using DerF's UWb list? ie: tough/numerous Or maybe decks not to focus too much time on because it's not difficult or numerous?

Maybe a gauntlet suggestion? Hopefully with decklist suggestions? (like go to blah, blah forum and use blah's list for testing the blah matchup)

Thanks guys. I'm just starting to get a little nervous.

-TG

gobblor
05-22-2008, 06:37 AM
I just made this landstill deck with the use of tutors

Creatures

1x Eternal Dragon

Other

4x Force of will
4x Counterspell
4x Brainstorm
4x Enlightened Tutor
1x Crucible Of Worlds
2x Standstill
3x Sensi's Divining top
3x Counterbalance
1x Engineered Explosives
4x Swords To Plowshares
2x Decree of Justice
1x Seal of Cleansing
2x Wrath of God

Lands

4x Tundra
4x Flooded Strand
1x Polluted Delta
3x Wasteland
1x Academy Ruins
5x Islands
2x Plains
4x Mishra's Factory

Side Board

3x Pulse of the fields
2x Blue elemental blast
2x Vedalken Shackles
1x Pithing Needle
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Rule of law
1x Circle of protection green
1x Circle of protection Red
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Runed Halo

I was thinking of maybe adding mindslaver? for use with academy ruins and I could tutor for it.

Ch@os
05-22-2008, 07:05 AM
I just made this landstill deck with the use of tutors



You made nothing, its the well known "moatility" list without Moat.


For example ~ :

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
3 Island
2 Plains
3 Wasteland
1 Faerie Conclave
4 Mishra's Factory

4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Wrath of God
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Moat
4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Eternal Dragon
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Hoofprints of the Stag

thefreakaccident
05-22-2008, 10:37 AM
I have a tourney coming up soon. What decks should I be getting the most practice against using DerF's UWb list? ie: tough/numerous Or maybe decks not to focus too much time on because it's not difficult or numerous?

Maybe a gauntlet suggestion? Hopefully with decklist suggestions? (like go to blah, blah forum and use blah's list for testing the blah matchup)

Thanks guys. I'm just starting to get a little nervous.

-TG



The worst thing you can do for yourself is be nervous going into the tournament... you will need to keep your cool when playing the deck, and you will have to patient.

I wouldn't test any trouble MUs, unless you have never played against them before (the toughest MUs probably being ichorid, and agro-loam)... you pack LftL hate however, in the form of extirpate, and it is also quite good against ichorid as well.

The MUs you should not spend any time on : goblins, affinity, goyf sligh, threshold, other landstils.... these are the very positive MUs, that all boil down to your basic understandings of the deck.

The difficult MUs include eva green (I have a 3-3 game record against t in tournament play), and funkbrewesque decks... gaddock teeg is a beast against this deck, and a first turn hypnotic specter is devastating without a swords to plowshares.

These are just tough MUs, but are still very winnable, against eva, you will just have to save your draw until later in the game (after they have ran out of gas), against Gaddock teeg, you will want to resolve an explosives for 2 prior, as he effectively shuts down all your removal save swords t plowshares.


Just keep your cool, play smart, and you will do just fine, this deck has no autolosses.

TopGun
05-22-2008, 06:45 PM
I'm probably mostly nervous because I haven't tested enough...partly because there are so many decks, and I don't really want to put them all together. Your reply helps greatly in this regard.

Is there a good ichorid and aggro-loam list you'd suggest? I've never played vs. ichorid, and only a few times vs. blood moon loam. You don't need to copy the decklists, just tell me what post # in the appropriate thread...or link?

I've actually spent the most time on goblins and thresh, lol. Oops. I'm not sure what makes other landstills a very positive matchup...could you explain?

Do you have decklists to refer me to for testing eva, and funkbrew?

Thanks,
-TG

thefreakaccident
05-22-2008, 06:56 PM
Well, you simply have a stronger late game against opposing landstill decks... you have dragon (without swords he is deadly), you have decree (they cannot afford to play their standstills mid-late game now), and you have extirpate (hitting their mandlands/gas/countermagic/removal can swing the game in your favor)...

This is a MU that depends heavily on playskill, however, I have never lost to american landstill with this build:

Landstill by Clemens Wolff

lands//25
3 plains
4 tundra
2 underground sea
1 scrubland
2 island
4 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
1 wasteland
1 tolaria west
1 academy ruins
4 mishra's factory

creatures//1
1 eternal dragon

spells//34
4 force of will
4 counterspell
4 brainstorm
4 standstill
3 cunning wish
4 swords to plowshares
3 wrath of god
3 engineered explosives
1 crucible of worlds
2 humility
2 decree of justice

sideboard//
1 enlightened tutor
1 slaughter pact
1 return to dust
1 pulse of the fields
3 extirpate
3 engineered plague
3 meddling mage
2 moat


--------------------------

Here is funkbrew:

// Lands
1 - Forest
1 - Plains
1 - Swamp
1 – Polluted Delta
4 - Windswept Heath
4 - Bayou
4 - Scrubland
2 - Savannah
2 - Nantuko Monastery
1 - Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 - Volrath's Stronghold

// Creatures
4 - Dark Confidant
2 - River Boa
2 - Mire Boa
4 - Spectral Lynx
4 - Tarmogoyf
3 – Gaddock Teeg

// Spells
3 - Pernicious Deed
3 - Glittering Wish
3 - Vindicate
3 - Duress
4 - Swords to Plowshares
4 - Thoughtseize

// Sideboard
SB: 3 - Engineered Plague
SB: 4 - Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 - Pernicious Deed
SB: 1 - Vindicate
SB: 1 – Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 - Mystic Enforcer
SB: 1 - Loxodon Hierarch
SB: 1 - Dueling Grounds
SB: 1 - Vexing Shusher
SB: 1 - Castigate
-----------------------------------

Eva:

4 tarmogoyf
4 nantuko shade
4 hypnotic specter
4 tombstalker

4 dark ritual
4 thoughtseize
4 hymn to tourach
4 sinkhole
4 snuff out
3 seal of primordium

4 wasteland
4 polluted delta
3 bloodstained mire
4 bayou
6 swamp

board:
4 choke
4 leyline of the void
4 engineered plague
3 umezawa's jitte

TopGun
05-23-2008, 06:12 AM
I play that same mainboard and -2 moat, +1 MMage, +1 Hydroblast in board. DerF's list.

I tested the 2 matchups for the decklists you gave me. Seems like a lot of it revolves around crucible and standstill. They tend to peter-out if you can keep playing lands early. If not...it's pretty rough. It feels like we should be favored though overall.

I tested a different UBg Landstill list against an aggro-loam list...it was pretty rough. I feel like WoS&M would wreck them though...and maybe ichorid too? I need a list for the Ich. matchup though. You don't need to copy the decklists, just tell me what post # in the appropriate thread...or link? Have you tried WoS&M yet? Seems like it could improve our bad matchups by a lot. I'll be happy to test it playing against myself, but I need to know how boarding would go for loam and ich (with lists)...and for the UWb landstill...maybe taking out -1 s. pact, -2 pate? for +3 Wheel??? Or if you can suggest something better?

Thanks,
-TG

thefreakaccident
05-23-2008, 06:46 PM
The moats are for the ichorid MU, and help stall against a lot of other decks... BEB is dead in my meta, as only 1 Dstompy guy plays here, and goblins only shows up in small numbers.

A resolved gaddock teeg is quite devastating to Derf's list (the one I play), and my teammate always gets him within the first couple turns (or a wish), which could change the MU numbers quite a bit (we only played like 10 games outside of tournament play, 7 of which he got teeg relatively early).

I hardly ever see quick combo here (like belcher/SI), so mage is hardly ever boarded in, hence the small cut to a 3 of... I never run BEB any more, there is just no reason to here.

Wheel is very good against agro loam and ichorid, however I wouldn't add more than a few of them in the board, as the board is so tight as it is, and ichorid already helps so much in those matchups already.

NQN
05-25-2008, 06:37 AM
Yesterday I won a 39 player tournament with Uwb Cunning LS.
Here is a short report but first, the decklist:

// Lands
4 [R] Tundra
1 [R] Underground Sea
1 [R] Scrubland
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [TE] Wasteland
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
3 [SHM] Plains (4)
3 [A] Island (2)

// Creatures
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
4 [7E] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Standstill
3 [JU] Cunning Wish
4 [AT] Swords to Plowshares
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [10E] Wrath of God
2 [TE] Humility
1 [SC] Decree of Justice
1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
1 [LOR] Jace Beleren

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
SB: 1 [TSP] Return to Dust
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 1 [OV] Hydroblast

Round 1 Dragonstompy

G1: He takes 2 mulligans and start with a Jitte on Turn 1. Then the game goes draw-go for about 5 turns and after I played Humility he scooped.
SB: Nothing
G2: Again he starts with Jitte on turn 1 , followed by a Needle and a Blood Moon which I force. Then again he is unable to play any relevant threat(maybe because there aren´t any...) and I beat him fast with 3 factories.

Round 2 MonoU feat. Painterservant
G1: I counter a Grindstone and than tap 4 mana to cast Humility but he has the Counterspell. In his turn he gets a Back to Basics in play which totaly destroyed my manabase and then he mills me with 1 Grindstone... :(
+4 M.Mages +2 Extirpates - 3 Wrath -1 C.Wish -1 Decree - 1Stop
G2: I play turn
2 Meddling Mage, turn 3 Meddling Mage and turn 4 Meddling mage and Standstill. GG.
G3: He is a little bit flooded at the end and I extirpate him twice while my 2 Mages goes to the dome.

Round 3 RG Beatz
G1: He doesn´t do many relevant things and only burns me down to 3. Now his hand is Empty and I still have 2 Counterspells left after I had to counter 2 Price of Progresses. With this advantage I manage it to kill him fast with my factories.
+4 M.Mages +3 Extirpates -3 Wrath -2 Humility - 1 Jace -1 Decree
G2: Almost the same as game 1 but now he has Vortex and 2 Prices and I´m unable to draw a C.Wish.
G3: Long story short, I get a C.wish for Pulse and some Mages so I can seal the deal.

Round 4 Ichorid
G1: No Chance against turn 3 kill.
+4 Mages +3 Extirpates + 3 E.Plague - 3 Wrath -3 C.Wish -4 Swords to Plowshares
G2: I start like usual with good ol` land go. He plays Coliseum->Breakthrough and discards some good cards but only 2 Imps as Dredger. I Extirpate them, play a M.Mage on Therapy. Then I draw 6 lands in a row and he can recover somehow. Then finally I get a brainstorm which gives me another Extirpate and Explosives. Explosives is impressive with A.RUins and so he scoopes his cards up. He offers me a draw but I want all or nothin and we went to
G3: He says that he wants to gamble and just ends his turn without a play. I have a good hand with Force, Extirpate and Meddling Mage. Underground Sea go. He topdecks City of Brass and plays Led, Breakthrough_>Resp Sacc LED. I Extirpate his Stinkweeds again so that he has only 1 Thug to Dredge. I dredges some nonrelevant cards and has a shitty GY and zero handcards left. I draw another Extirpate for his Thug and factories+M.Mage kills him really fast.

Round 5 Ugb Thresh
We make an ID and decide to play who can pick first. I win 2-0 as expected and can pick a Mint Volcanic Island.

So my final record was 4-0-1 and I had a lot of fun because I could play outside where the air was really nice. Since my english isn´t the best I hope you´ll understand what I wrote and maybe pick up this crazy deck and beat some bad matchups with it ;)

PS: Thanks to Clemens for building the best deck ever :tongue:

-NQN-

Joon
05-25-2008, 07:04 AM
Round 4 Ichorid
G1: No Chance against turn 3 kill.
+4 Mages +3 Extirpates + 3 E.Plague - 3 Wrath -3 C.Wish -4 Swords to Plowshares
G2: I start like usual with good ol` land go. He plays Coliseum->Breakthrough and discards some good cards but only 2 Imps as Dredger. I Extirpate them, play a M.Mage on Therapy. Then I draw 6 lands in a row and he can recover somehow. Then finally I get a brainstorm which gives me another Extirpate and Explosives. Explosives is impressive with A.RUins and so he scoopes his cards up. He offers me a draw but I want all or nothin and we went to
G3: He says that he wants to gamble and just ends his turn without a play. I have a good hand with Force, Extirpate and Meddling Mage. Underground Sea go. He topdecks City of Brass and plays Led, Breakthrough_>Resp Sacc LED. I Extirpate his Stinkweeds again so that he has only 1 Thug to Dredge. I dredges some nonrelevant cards and has a shitty GY and zero handcards left. I draw another Extirpate for his Thug and factories+M.Mage kills him really fast.


Hi, I was the Ichorid Pilot. As I told you, I hate it to play against this deck. If I gamble and try the explosive start with LED you'll probably have the Force or at least I have to expect that. If I try to slowroll you with EoT Discard you'll have enough time to Wish --> Extirpate. Postboard it isn't better as you have access to 10 sideboard cards :/

An idea to the SB though: Maybe cut Plagues for Wheel of Sun and Moon? Wheel rapes pretty much Ichorid, some Servant combos and Loam, and as you told me, you don't want to face Ichorid and Loam seems to be not a great matchup too. Thoughts?

diffy
05-25-2008, 07:50 AM
Yesterday I won a 39 player tournament with UWb Cunning LS.


Grats for the finish.



//Spells
1 Jace Beleren


How was he? I'm still very sceptical of adding him, especially if you're cutting a DoJ for him... Decree is just one of your finest tools in so many matchups.
I've actually even recently moved up to 3 copies main because they're just that good and help a great deal to stabilize in the mid- to early lategame where they act as a 'keep winning' card. Having multiple copies of Decree also helps to end the game much quicker against decks which otherwise could recover during the time you give them. Not to say that they are the way better wincondition than Factory.
Other random bonuses of playing more DoJs: better control matchup, better tools to just be able to ignore a Blood Moon (more Winconditions that aren't affected by it), better matchup against non-swarm aggro (where DoJ acts as a Timewalk that gets you from the midgame right into the lategame by producing 1-2 chump-blockers [which equals a double Fog most of the time] and cantriping [digging for more lands]).



Round 4 Ichorid
+4 Mages +3 Extirpates + 3 E.Plague - 3 Wrath -3 C.Wish -4 Swords to Plowshares

From my experience, this isn't the correct boarding plan - you want to keep in both Swords and Wrath to have additional outs to their Ichorids/Tokkens (the later is obviously only useful if they get a slow start, but it is still better than some other stuff you have in the main).

This is my boarding plan:

-4 Standstill
-3 Cunning Wish
-1 Counterspell
-1 Crucible of Worlds
-1 Eternal Dragon
-1 Plains

Standstills get the axe because their only merit is that they pitch to Force: the Ichorid player can work better under a Standstill than you can.
The Wish gets removed for Extirpate because Wish is too slow most of the time. Also, you don't have many good things to fetch outside of Extirpate anyway.
Eternal Dragon gets boarded out for being too slow. Also, you don't need the mana/colour fixing as he won't attack your manabase.
Counterspell is boarded out because there's very little you want to/can counter and because they are too slow most of the time to do the job (counter discard-outlet) anyway. Some are kept in because you still want some in the midgame to counter their bounce for your Plague/Humility.
Crucible gets boarded out for being close to useless as it is way too slow as a wincondition and because you really don't need it: if you ever get into the position where you want to recur some lands, you've already won.

+4 Meddling Mage
+3 Engineered Plague
+3 Extirpate
+1 Enlightened Tutor

An early Meddling Mage should always be set to Cabal Therapy first - it is essential to be able to protect your sweepers/Extirpates from their discard or they'll still rip you apart.
Following Mages should be played on Dread Return (if they didn't board it out) and Chain of Vapor.

The problem with this boarding plan is that you loose 4 Blue Cards to pitch to Force bringing your total postboard Blue-card-count down to 15 (16 if you play Jace). This is dangerously low but still acceptable as you only need one Force of Will early and don't rely on having to cast some later.
Also, Force of Will isn't exactly the best card in the matchup anyway so that there's little problem if you can't cast it.



An idea to the SB though: Maybe cut Plagues for Wheel of Sun and Moon? Wheel rapes pretty much Ichorid, some Servant combos and Loam, and as you told me, you don't want to face Ichorid and Loam seems to be not a great matchup too. Thoughts?


Wheel of Sun and Moon is a great tool for quite some matchups including some bad matchups (anything with Loam, really), but I don't know yet if it is versatile enough to warrant 3-4 slots as it is rather narrow if compared to some other options.
Also, I've recently moved away from playing Engineered Plague in the sideboard (cutting down to 2 Black Sources in the main alongside that change) and have replaced them with a card that is nearly as good in the matchups where you want Plague and way more versatile in all the other matchups: Runed Halo (http://magiccards.info/shm/en/21.html).
Runed Halo is a fine tool for nearly every matchup ranging from aggro where it acts like a better Extirpate on their main threat, an Extirpate that you can cast pro-actively and that doesn't require you to already have killed one of their guys and that also acts as removal for a current threat in a pinch all the way over to combo where it acts like a worse version of Meddling Mage which is still good enough.
Against Goblins, Plague is usually better but you still have the tools to beat the matchup postboard as setting Runed Halo to Goblin Piledriver cuts down their clock and makes their 'combo' finish when you're tapped out much less reliable. In this matchup, Runed Halo serves as a tempo card in order to buy time for you to find/resolve your :2::w::w: Spells and does this job pretty well.

Here's my current board:

/// Sideboard (15 cards)
4 Meddling Mage
3 Runed Halo
3 Extirpate
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Return to Dust

NQN
05-25-2008, 09:35 AM
First, i was wrong when I wrote that i boarded out 4 Swords cause i used it in g2. I boarded out 2 Counterspells instead of 2 Swords I guess. Jace is awesome! I already played it in Duelmen where I got 2nd because I conceded the last round. I cutted 1 Decree because I always got 2 Decrees early and often cycled one just to get the next land. So I just added 1 Jace and it rocks, especialy against Eva Green and Firlefanz. I played Plagues over Jailer/Wheel/whateva because I have 4 simchin and i expected some Elves! and Goblins and wanted to be sure to win against those.
But now I got some questions: How good is RUned Halo? I played around with it and never felt really comfortable with it. Against what is it SO great? Against Goblins plagues are better, against ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh you already have a Bye. Maybe againts 4 PoP Decks but during my testing I felt like that Matchup is already good if you play correct.

TopGun
05-25-2008, 11:36 AM
Congratz on 1st NQN!!!




Wheel of Sun and Moon is a great tool for quite some matchups including some bad matchups (anything with Loam, really), but I don't know yet if it is versatile enough to warrant 3-4 slots as it is rather narrow if compared to some other options.



If 3-4 slots can turn your bad matchups into decent/good matchups...and you don't really have many other bad matchups...does it matter if it's narrow?

Also, does Runed Halo get boarded in for many matchups? I kinda liked screwing goblins over and having more outs to ETW tokens from TES with plagues. Is it better against Ichorid? Or Ceph. Breakfast? I haven't tested these matchups yet.

I guess it depends on which decks it's boarded against, but does runed halo make the matchups it's used in a lot better than they already were? Or would turning tough matchups like loam into better matchups with WoS&M be worth some slots in the board?

(On a side note: Has anybody actually tested WoS&M against Aggro-Loam and Ichorid? It seems to me like it would almost be a 2nd turn auto-win...but I haven't tried it yet, so maybe it's not as good as I'd hope.)

Thanks,
-TG

TopGun
05-25-2008, 11:39 AM
So I just added 1 Jace and it rocks, especialy against Eva Green and Firlefanz. I played Plagues over Jailer/Wheel/whateva because I have 4 simchin and i expected some Elves! and Goblins and wanted to be sure to win against those.


What is Firlefanz and simchin?

TeKo
05-25-2008, 11:42 AM
Firlefanz is a Survival / Rockish deck?
simchin = S-Chinese = Simplified Chinese

diffy
05-25-2008, 12:25 PM
If 3-4 slots can turn your bad matchups into decent/good matchups...and you don't really have many other bad matchups...does it matter if it's narrow?


If on the other hand, you could play an option that is a little worse in your bad matchups but raises near to all other matchup percentages by a decent amount postboard (especially those matchup where you normally don't have something to board in and so which get drastically worse postboard), I'd say that yes, Wheel is narrow and should maybe not be played.
Runed Halo for example might not be as strong as Wheel in the Aggro Loam / Ichorid matchups, but it is still very strong in those matchups and drastically improves them... against Ichorid it is an additional Extirpate (that can only hit Ichorid), against Aggro Loam with only 10-12 threats, it is also a good complement to Extirpate (you play it on their threats after getting rid of their recursion) making life much easier as they have little to no outs to a resolved Enchantment (Burning Wish is a must counter anyway) cutting down their clock massively.



Also, does Runed Halo get boarded in for many matchups? I kinda liked screwing goblins over and having more outs to ETW tokens from TES with plagues. Is it better against Ichorid? Or Ceph. Breakfast?


Against Combo, I'll take Halo over Plague all day long: you already have some outs to Empty the Warrens (Explosives, Wrath) so that I'll gladly take more outs to their real threat (Tendrils). I'd say point to Halo.
Against Breakfast, Plague is a little better because they have to handle it prior to going off, but less reliable as they can still circumvent it by Tutoring up a Shaman en-kor whereas Halo has to be handled imperatively in order for them to win (name: Karmic Guide/Sutured Ghoul) but gives them the option to mill into Ray of Revelation to handle it (if they play it which isn't very common). Also, Halo acts double duty in this matchup denying them off their Tarmogoyfs if need be. I'd say point to Halo.
Against Ichorid, the difference is marginal. Engineered Plague is more flexible, as it can also name Illusion or Zombie but Halo comes down earlier. Both handle Ichorid while Halo gives him the option to use Ichorid in their mainphase where Plague gives him Zombies in his upkeep. I'd say point to Plague.



I guess it depends on which decks it's boarded against, but does runed halo make the matchups it's used in a lot better than they already were? Or would turning tough matchups like loam into better matchups with WoS&M be worth some slots in the board?


Aggro Loam is a tough matchup, for sure, but it is manageable via tight play and improves due to Halo and due to playing more basics.
Especially the non-SPOD versions (my Team's versions playing Chalices and up to 8 Moons main) are very manageable so that I don't think that they deserve further, rather narrow, slots in the board.
I'll do some in-depth testing (numbers!) and come back to people on this issue though.

Adan
05-25-2008, 12:38 PM
Against Combo, I'll take Halo over Plague all day long: you already have some outs to Empty the Warrens (Explosives, Wrath) so that I'll gladly take more outs to their real threat (Tendrils). I'd say point to Halo.

Tendrils? K, but it can also shut off Duress, Orim's Chant and so on.

thefreakaccident
05-26-2008, 01:22 PM
I just got 12th at the PT hollywood side event dual land draft (I know, I phail).

There were many people in attendance, I think almost a hundred at the start (I know, I was shocked as well)....

I went 5-3 in rounds, with fantastic breakers, loosing 2-1 all the games I lost, and winning 2-0 all the games I won (literally).

My losses were (in order chronalogically through the tourney):

4. Armageddon stax
7. Baby burn
8. Cephalid breakfast


I will elaborate on these matches in specific later when I have time.

EDIT: Elaborations

Staxx played armageddon effects G1 until I ran out of countermagic, and then armageddoned again with trinisphere out... G2, he played a series of defense grids, which then prompted a scoop to another armageddon.

Burn used price of progress, lots of price of progress... also had sulfuric vortex to shut off pulse.


Cephalid breakfast (This one I have to ellaborate)... so, he forces down a vial early game, we go back and forth, I have plenty of countermagic in hand, I swords one of the combo critters (nomad), he has vial @ 2, he topdecks his singleton shaman FTW... I was appalled.

G2, I did what I was supposed to do, I raped him.

G3, he has a an inordinate amount of therapies (2-3, with flashback), I have humility.. he chants me, I counterspell, he echoing truths my humility, combos (my last card in hand is swords), and therapies me for my swords and wins.

There was nothing I could have done in the MUs I lost, besides maybe draw better/not play against those decks... unfortunate, I didn't play against dedicated blue agro-control or agro all day.

lebarion
05-29-2008, 02:41 PM
Hi,
I've been playing casually with UWb Cunningstill for some time and now I'm planning to take this deck to a local tournament, as I think it is pretty versatile and does well against most of the matchs I may face (aggro slivers, goblins, suicide black, painter's stone combo, reanimator, survival).
However, I'm not sure how to play this deck against combo with protection - specially TES and FT, which suddenly become more common in my metagame. As landstill hardly put the opponent on a clock, he usually has time to try to combo again or to force a Orim's chant through my counters.
What do you think are the main cards and what strategy should I use in this match?
Thanks!

NQN
05-29-2008, 04:22 PM
With the Clemens list you have about 11 relevant cards maindeck. Postboard you have 4 Mages and 3 Pates which makes the Matchup much better. You have to counter chant ALWAYS and then try to overwhelm them with CA and a "fast" kill.

konsultant
05-30-2008, 09:37 PM
I'm running 4 Runed Halo and 3 Orim's Chant for my Tendrils hate and in testing I win about 90% of my games sideboarded. I must admit I absolutly hate having to run Chant to fight that deck but the threat of Chant considerably increases your chance's of winning.

I can't stress enough how happy I have been with Runed Halo in my SB. Against Decks where counterspells are weak Halo is my all star card.

Jak
05-30-2008, 11:48 PM
I'm running 4 Runed Halo and 3 Orim's Chant for my Tendrils hate and in testing I win about 90% of my games sideboarded. I must admit I absolutly hate having to run Chant to fight that deck but the threat of Chant considerably increases your chance's of winning.

I can't stress enough how happy I have been with Runed Halo in my SB. Against Decks where counterspells are weak Halo is my all star card.

Halo is an amazing card. I am glad someone else thinks so. Being able to stop 4 Goyfs in one card wins games. It isn't narrow and is a permanent answer toa lot of things.

evskimo
05-31-2008, 12:35 AM
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Force Spike

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
2 Fact of Fiction

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Wrath of God
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Decree of Justice

2 Engineered Explosives
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Moat
1 Seal of Cleansing

1 Eternal Dragon

4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
4 Mishra's Factory
2 wasteland
2 Faerie Conclave
1 Polluted Delta
1 Mystic Gate
1 Academy Ruins

3 Island
2 Plains

SB:

4: Disenchant
2: Arcane Laboratory
2: Sphere of Law
1: Circle of Protection: Red
2: Energy Flux
2: Tormod's Crypt
1: Propoganda
1: Enlightened Tutor

it might seem wierd but i've dropped down to 2 wrath and 2 (or 4 - depending of how you look at it) explosives. the addition of force spike may solve SO many of my problems that include nimble mongoose, goblin lackey, duress/thoughtsieze AND it is the best card ever to pitch to FoW. i am hesitant to run more than 3 simply because either i want one in my opening hand, but if i don't i don't wanna be drawing 2 or 3 of them later in the game. so 3 seems good. i dropped jace to make room for it and in some ways it seems like a good replacement for wrath and jace beleren (or other card draw) - it's a fantastic tempo card as well as being early creature removal. i tested it briefly last night and it performed well as a 3-of. If this fails i may just turn to U/W control........

Citrus-God
06-02-2008, 05:24 AM
Okay, I'm really interested in having the players in this thread take a survey on the following choices for Cunning-Still. It would be nice if players would also elaborate on their decisions as well.


1. Number of Runed Halos and/or Extirpates in the Sideboard?
2. Current Sideboard (Must include Wish board)?
3. Runed Halo in the maindeck?
4. Crucibles main or sb?
5. How many DoJs maindeck?
6. Fact or Fiction maindeck or no?
7. 4 WoGs, 3 WoGs 1 Humility, or 3 WoGs 2 Humility?
8. Enlighten Tutor as wish target or no?
9. 3 Wastelands, 1 Wasteland 1 Academy Ruins 1 Tolaria West, or no Wastelands at all?
10. Boarding against Thresh, Mirror, Storm Combo, Dragon Stompy, and Vial Goblins?
11. Mana Base
12. Current Decklist (Optional)?


I'll start;


1. Number of Runed Halos and/or Extirpates in the Sideboard?

3 Extirpates, 4 Runed Halo



2. Sideboard (Must include Wish board)?

1 Slaughter Pact
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Enlighten Tutor
2 Dismantling Blow
1 Humility
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Extirpate
4 Runed Halo



3. Runed Halo in the maindeck?

Havent tested enough to justify maindeck inclusion at the moment...



4. Crucibles main or sb?

1 In the Maindeck to be fetched via ETutor



5. How many DoJs maindeck?

3 Maindeck DoJ. They're too good to go back to being 2-ofs. They are multiple turn fog effects, synergize under Humility, cycles under Standstill, can be cycled EOT which is baller, and when it is hardcasted the game is usually a sign you won.



6. Fact or Fiction maindeck or no?

I run 2 copies maindeck. They're amazing and I never side them out. I usually pitch them to FoW early game (unless I have two standstills in my hand, I'll pitch the Standstill instead), but midgame, it is a way to get started on chaining card advantage. I have never recalled a game I lost after I cast one copy of FoF. Time to time I fetch it from the SB against decks like Dragon Stompy or the mirror.




7. 4 WoGs, 3 WoGs 1 Humility, or 3 WoGs 2 Humility?

3 WoGs, 1 Humility. I can fetch the singleton Humility via CWish -> ETutor.



8. Enlighten Tutor as wish target or no?

Yes, it fetches my singletons game 1.



9. 3 Wastelands, 1 Wasteland 1 Academy Ruins 1 Tolaria West, or no Wastelands at all?

Havent done enough testing with the Academy Ruins, Tolaria West, and Wasteland to justify inclusion. For now, it's 3 Wastelands.



10. Boarding against Thresh, Mirror, Storm Combo, Dragon Stompy, and Vial Goblins?

Thresh:

-2 Fact or Fiction
-3 Cunning Wish
-1 Swords to Plowshares

+1 Humility
+1 Crucible of Worlds
+4 Runed Halo


Mirror:

-4 Swords to Plowshares
-1 Humility

+3 Extirpate
+1 Crucible of Worlds
+1 Fact or Fiction


Storm Combo:

-1 Crucible of Worlds
-2 Fact or Fiction
-3 Decree of Justice
-1 Eternal Dragon

+3 Extirpate
+4 Runed Halo


Dragon Stompy:

-1 Decree of Justice
-1 Crucible of Worlds
-2 Swords to Plowshares

+4 Runed Halo


Vial Goblins:

-1 Crucible of Worlds
-1 Decree of Justice
-1 Wasteland
-3 Cunning Wish
-2 Counterspell
-1 Standstill

+1 Humility
+1 Pulse of the Fields
+1 Enlighten Tutor
+3 Extirpate
+3 Runed Halo



11. Mana Base

4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Underground Sea
3 Plains
3 Island

diffy
06-02-2008, 10:59 AM
1. Number of Runed Halos and/or Extirpates in the Sideboard?


3 Runed Halos, 3 Extirpates in the board.
Extirpates are just great for your bad matchups while still being rather versatile (Control Matchup, Combo Matchup, NQG etc.).
Runed Halo is a current test slot and is awesome so far being something to board in for all those Matchups where you normally don't have something to bring in (and which in consequence are worse Matchups postboard than preboard which is not something you want) while still being a good tool for your worse matchups too.



2. Current Sideboard (Must include Wish board)?


4 Meddling Mage
3 Runed Halo
3 Extirpate
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Return to Dust
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Pulse of the Fields

The lone Blue Elemental Blast in the Sideboard is awesome - it is a complement to Runed Halo for the Combo/Goblins matchup while giving you more flexibility due to also being an easy and wishable out to Blood Moon.



3. Runed Halo in the maindeck?


Sadly I don't find the room to include them... your other removal is just more flexible because Runed Halo sadly doesn't do anything against hordes whereas Wrath of God still has some uses against what you'll normally name with Runed Halo.



4. Crucibles main or sb?


One in the main to be fetched via Cunning Wish -> Enlightened Tutor.
Crucible of Worlds is still a very potent/solid tool but sadly a little clunky and too slow for the mid- early game. One stays in as it is a great Tutor target against disruption based and control decks.



5. How many DoJs maindeck?


I have recently moved up to running 3 DoJ in the main - but mainly because they're a better wincondition than Mishra's Factory: DoJ can actually at least stall that Goyf/random fat guy, doesn't expose your manabase and is potentially more broken and faster at ending the game.



6. Fact or Fiction maindeck or no?


No FoFs in the main: they are unneeded and too slow due to Cunning Wish taking the role of the 'rather clunky card advantage' slot (I regard Card Quality/Selection to be directly linked to raw card advantage as drawing 'n' cards will often give you the same result as getting the right card for the current situation right away).



7. 4 WoGs, 3 WoGs 1 Humility, or 3 WoGs 2 Humility?


3 Wrath of God, 2 Humility

I'm tempted to say that playing less than 2 copies of Humility is a mistake: this card is just a total bomb in so many matchups that you always want to have one by turn 5-6 the latest and if you resolve one, you simply win on the spot against most decks... I'm actually even considering moving up to three copies main but haven't tried this yet especially since the deck is rather tight on slots and because including another one at the expense of your other removal makes your deck less consistent as you still want to have access to loads of WoGs as some decks can still amass hordes of 1/1s and try to kill you.



8. Enlighten Tutor as wish target or no?


I do play an Enlightened Tutor as Wish target - and it is awesome. It just enables so many plays (e.g. tutoring up the single maindeck Crucible of Worlds) and is great in situations where Cunning Wish normally can't help you because it can get you removal (Engineered Explosives, Humility).
Enlightened Tutor is also my Card Advantage slot in the Wishboard as it can either creature virtual Card Advantage by fetching Humility or real Card Advantage by fetching Standstill so that I free up another slot (normally dedicated to Fact or Fiction).



9. 3 Wastelands, 1 Wasteland 1 Academy Ruins 1 Tolaria West, or no Wastelands at all?


1 Academy Ruins
1 Tolaria West
1 Wasteland

I would run no Wastelands at all if the manabase hadn't become so consistent over time: the occasions where you really want to use Wasteland are rather rare and close to always wasting a random, non utility, land is the bad play because you gain more tempo by developing your own manabase than by destroying your opponent's: you aren't the guy with the curve that stops at 2-3 who doesn't need many lands out to function well and you thrive on having as much mana as possible.
On the flip side of the coin, totally cutting Wasteland is also a rough call because having the possibility of the Crucible+Wasteland lock and having outs to opposing manlands and utility Lands (Volrath's Stronghold, Academy Ruins) is still very nice.
Running Tolaria West is a good solution to the dilemma as it ups the virtual Wasteland count without being as bad/narrow as more copies of Wasteland. The 'comes into play tapped' close to never matters and the flexibility outweighs the small inconveniences Tolaria West might create by far: being able to fetch out both pieces of the Academy Ruins+Engineered Explosives soft lock or a Mishra's Factory/Wasteland depending on the situation is worth gold.



10. Boarding against Thresh, Mirror, Storm Combo, Dragon Stompy, and Vial Goblins?


Disclaimer: these boarding plans are by no means definitive and change from day to day - especially the Dragon Stompy and Goblins sideboarding tactics are rather sketchy as I only rarely face them in my Meta.

NQG:

Non-Balanced (hence Tempo) NQG:
-1 Decree of Justice
-1 Eternal Dragon
-3 Cunning Wish
-1 Wrath of God
+3 Runed Halo
+1 Enlightened Tutor
+2 Extirpate

Balanced NQG:
-1 Decree of Justice
-1 Eternal Dragon
-1 Crucible of Worlds
+3 Runed Halo

Landstill:

Against versions without Tombstalker:
-3 Wrath of God
-2 Humility
-4 Standstill
+4 Meddling Mage
+3 Runed Halo
+2 Extirpate

If they play Tombstalker, I additionally board:
-1 Swords to Plowshares (to still have access to removal in the Wishboard)
+1 Enlightened Tutor

Storm Combo:

Against non-Burning Wish based Combo
-3 Cunning Wish
-3 Wrath of God
-2 Humility
-1 Swords to Plowshares
-1 Eternal Dragon
-1 Crucible of Worlds
+4 Meddling Mage
+3 Runed Halo
+3 Extirpate
+1 Enlightened Tutor

If they play a build with red, I also board:
-1 Decree of Justice
+1 Blue Elemental Blast

Dragon Stompy:
-1 Crucible of Worlds
-1 Decree of Justice
-1 Counterspell
+3 Runed Halo

Goblins:
-1 Standstill
-1 Cunning Wish
-2 Counterspell
+3 Runed Halo
+1 Blue Elemental Blast



11. Mana Base
12. Current Decklist (Optional)?


I keep this (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2559348&postcount=12) post updated with the latest public version of the deck.

evskimo
06-02-2008, 08:08 PM
i'm most interested in this discussion on cunning wish, keep it up! has it actually been decided that wish builds are superior to all other U/W/x builds?

thefreakaccident
06-02-2008, 08:20 PM
Pretty much, Cwish gives the deck so much power and flexibility it isn't even funny...

@ DIF- Why are you running only 3 mishra's factory?

I would feel naked with only 3 in the MD...

Couldn't you just keep the original manbase? I never had mana issues with 4 basics, and I almost feel 6 is overdoing it... however, I will test it and get back to you on it (I am skeptical however with 6 basics and 3 mishra's...).

I may just drop wasteland, as my meta rarely ever has stronghold/ruins, and in the case of ruins, I can tutor for my own and trade (we have crucibles, they probably don't).

Mister Agent
06-02-2008, 08:38 PM
Well DIF added another decree of justice to his newest list while narrowing down his mishra count by one. I consider this a clever tweek considering decree can function the same way as mishra but can also win the late stages of a game on a dime. Also running 3 decrees increases the efficiency of humility as well by making their function more potent in a defensive/offensive manner.

I also have been testing runed halo out a ton and it's quite impressive in the mirror. Runed halo functions like a psuodo-wasteland and at the sametime you don't need to dilute your manabase to run runed halo.

diffy
06-03-2008, 05:35 AM
Has it actually been decided that wish builds are superior to all other U/W/x builds?

No, this hasn't been decided - there is generally no consent about Landstill lists or whatsoever, especially Cunning Wish isn't universally adopted.

I decided to play it in the first place because it was a nice way to improve your bad matchups pre-board (anything with a recursion engine like Life from the Loam or Genesis) without filling up otherwise dead slots. It also allowed to move the Pulse of the Fields from the main to the sideboard while getting access to even 'more' copies of them.
Over time, the slot has developed and will stay for me as it makes the deck much more flexible than without it and is rarely dead: it can always act as a Dark Banishing/Disenchant slot or better depending on the matchup.
The main problem with Cunning Wish is that it is rather clunky and makes a top-heavy deck even more mana intensive which is not something you want... therefore you have to often decide if you want to play Cunning Wish or another clunky source of card advantage like Fact or Fiction. For me this pick is easy as I like to be sure to have the solution I need instead of gambling on having it in the top five cards and because I find Fact or Fiction generally horrible as against a good player it will only create CA+1 as he will close to always split so that you have to take the smaller pile.

So basically you have to ask yourself if there are bad matchups for Landstill (read: decks with recursion engines) in your meta. If you answer this question with 'yes', I'd always play Cunning Wish as having a better winpercentage against the entire field is in my opinion superior to making already good matchups even better.
As in the US hardly no-one seems to play anything with a Life from the Loam engine, I can see people getting away without playing Cunning Wish, but in Europe and Germany in particular, this would be suicidal.

In a completely random/unknown metagame, I'd always play Cunning Wish though.


Why are you running only 3 mishra's factory?

I wondered when this question would come up. This is a rather radical change I recently made and that could turn out to be a wrong decision but that has been great so far.

Here's my reasoning behind cutting a Mishra's Factory to bring in a third Decree of Justice:
First of all, we admit that this statement is true:
You want to develop your manabase as safely as possible because if you stabilize your manabase and make a land drop per turn, you're in a good position to win.
We then move on from there:
Mishra's Factory is a bad blocker:
It doesn't really kill anything any more with so many Goyfs running around
It exposes your manabase if you want to block:
If your opponent swings with a creature into your Factory and you have to block, chances are that you either trade with that creature or that Factory is even inferior to the creature so that you have to chump.
If your opponent swings with an inferior creature into your Factory, chances are that he has a removal - you don't want to activate and block with Factory because giving the opponent good targets for his otherwise dead removal is the first step on the path towards loosing: remember your lands are one of the most important part of the deck.
In all above mentioned cases you loose a land and get even into further trouble as you loose tempo too: you have just prevented some damage/killed a guy but did also develop your board negatively meaning that you're a land further away from stabilizing
Sub-conclusion: Decree of Justice is the better blocker as it doesn't cost you a land drop, kills also the guy a Factory would normally kill without dying and even gets you further ahead because of the cantrip effect. Instead of creating negative tempo and getting deeper into trouble due to loosing a land (Factory), DoJ actually gets you in a better position to get out of the trouble because it digs a card deeper.

Mishra's Factory is a bad attacker:
In the early- and midgame, you don't want to attack with a Factory most of the time because you don't want to tap down for a mere two damage
In the lategame, DoJ is clearly superior to Mishra's Factory too as it isn't vulnerable to spot removal and creates the better clock.
Sub-conclusion: Decree of Justice is the better attacker as it is the better clock in the lategame and doesn't mean you having to tap out before your opponents turn in order to deal damage

Conclusion: DoJ is the better card, hence Mishra's Factory -> Decree of Justice is reasonable




Couldn't you just keep the original manbase? I never had mana issues with 4 basics, and I almost feel 6 is overdoing it...


Without Engineered Plague in the sideboard, there is little reason to still play 3 :b:-Duals as you only need them for Engineered Explosives and Extirpate and can sit on fetchlands if you're really under pressure from opposing Wastelands (+Life from the Loam) until you find the Extirpate.
Also, playing more basics equals a more stable and less vulnerable manabase which is not a bad thing to have, especially if with more basics you can simply ignore some of the most common hate that is thrown at you (Back to Basics, Blood Moon, Wastelands etc.) which is also a good thing because it creates virtual card advantage.

Short Version:
We admit for the sake of the exercise that following is true:
Landstill > Format
Non-Basic Hate > Landstill
Basics > Non-Basic Hate
We can therefore logically conlude that
Basics > Format

FlavaSava
06-04-2008, 04:09 PM
What do you think about
1. 2 Oblivion Stones instead of 2 Wraths
2. Dismantling Blow instead of Return to Dust in the Sb
3. 1 random Mindslaver or is it overkill?

Nihil Credo
06-04-2008, 04:24 PM
What do you think about
1. 2 Oblivion Stones instead of 2 Wraths
Just picture yourself using Oblivion Stone to survive against Goblins.

2. Dismantling Blow instead of Return to Dust in the Sb
A perfectly good alternative. Works well if there's little Stax/DS in your meta. Arguably better in the mirror as well, although not preventing Academy Ruins shenanigans is sort of a bummer.

3. 1 random Mindslaver or is it overkill?
Overkill. For 13 mana, a Decree of Justice is usually just as lethal.

Citrus-God
06-04-2008, 04:45 PM
I can see Dismantling Blow replacing Disenchant because 2W isnt that bad of a cost, it's just 1 more than a Disenchant. It can still remove Counterbalance and get around it the usual curve.

NQN
06-05-2008, 08:26 AM
Sounds good...but who the fuck plays Disenchant?

Citrus-God
06-05-2008, 09:08 AM
Sounds good...but who the fuck plays Disenchant?

Konsultant used too... he played 2 copies of them in fact...

FlavaSava
06-05-2008, 01:08 PM
Just picture yourself using Oblivion Stone to survive against Goblins.

On the tournaments i play (dülmen in germany) are only 2-3 Goblins Deck from 60-70, i think the most played decks is NGQ. So i think about adding Stones. Do you think Wrath or Stone in my meta

diffy
06-05-2008, 02:22 PM
Do you think Wrath or Stone in my meta

If the NQG lists play Pithing Needle, Krosan Grip, Counterbalance or Stifle, Oblivion Stone is strictly inferior to Wrath of God.
Also, there's a higher probability of Oblivion Stone getting hit by Counterbalance... just don't play it.
The only advantage of Oblivion Stone over Wrath of God is the Dragon Stompy matchup which isn't even all that bad if you play the 6-Basics version with a Blue Elemental Blast in the Wishboard and the occasional Affinity/Enchantress which no-one plays (and even in the Affinity matchup, Stone might be too slow) - in all other matchups Wrath of God is better as it is faster and less vulnerable. Also, there are not enough Artefacts and Enchantments around in decks not having them as a main engine/way to victory (read: Affinity, Enchantress and the like) and you care of even less of these Artefacts/Enchantments making make the additional versatility of Stone not worth it over Wrath especially if you can also always handle the random problematic Artefact/Enchantment via Engineered Explosives or Cunning Wish for Return to Dust.

Also, don't copy any other of Patrick Richter (http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?creator=Patrick%20Richter)'s techs... most of them are rather horrible (I still don't know how that guy manages to top8 like every Iserlohn).

Adan
06-05-2008, 04:19 PM
Also, don't copy any other of Patrick Richter (http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?creator=Patrick%20Richter)'s techs... most of them are rather horrible (I still don't know how that guy manages to top8 like every Iserlohn).

He has got Germany's highest rating. So he's also bribing some opponents (he offers them all of his prize boosters if they concede for him for example, to retain his rating).

Iserlohn might have big events, but even nowadays the Top8 lists are random, random and... random. Except when one of the ayB-guys T8, their lists are always quite solid.

konsultant
06-05-2008, 07:26 PM
Konsultant used too... he played 2 copies of them in fact...

Still do actually. I've been toying with my Runed Halo version and Krosan Grip seems to be just the boost the deck needs. I'm not certain if it's better than Extirpate though.

I have made mention to posting my project list after the last event I went to but I lost 7-games [3 entire rounds] to mana screw. The card gods were not on my side that day, I will wait until the deck either wins or loses on it's own. I am running the exact same mana count as I have been for years and I only lost one game to Wasteland, I really just kicked my own ass.

Citrus-God
06-05-2008, 08:34 PM
Still do actually. I've been toying with my Runed Halo version and Krosan Grip seems to be just the boost the deck needs. I'm not certain if it's better than Extirpate though.

Would you play Krosan Grips over Disenchants, or do you play a copy over Return to Dust?


I have made mention to posting my project list after the last event I went to but I lost 7-games [3 entire rounds] to mana screw. The card gods were not on my side that day, I will wait until the deck either wins or loses on it's own. I am running the exact same mana count as I have been for years and I only lost one game to Wasteland, I really just kicked my own ass.

I look forward to it to seeing the new list.

konsultant
06-08-2008, 05:07 PM
I look forward to it to seeing the new list.

Well I got a touch discouraged after the massacre I recieved at the last Hadley event but I have managed to win the last 3 local events with some revisions. The build has gone in an unexpected direction but has given me good results. After the Hadley event this month I'll post up my deck list. I am not however running Cunning Wish and as much as love playing that card the version I have built now is greatly out-performing my wish based version.

If I was to ever run Wish again I would run 1 Return to Dust and if I was using Green I would play 2 Grips that could be Boarded in. I wasn't reliably running Green Mana before with the 1 Trop and 1 Savannah so I just played 2 Disenchants.

Citrus-God
06-08-2008, 05:30 PM
Well I got a touch discouraged after the massacre I recieved at the last Hadley event but I have managed to win the last 3 local events with some revisions. The build has gone in an unexpected direction but has given me good results. After the Hadley event this month I'll post up my deck list. I am not however running Cunning Wish and as much as love playing that card the version I have built now is greatly out-performing my wish based version.

Good luck at Hadley.


If I was to ever run Wish again I would run 1 Return to Dust and if I was using Green I would play 2 Grips that could be Boarded in. I wasn't reliably running Green Mana before with the 1 Trop and 1 Savannah so I just played 2 Disenchants.

So you'd run Grips in the SB which would be boarded in if you were running a build similar to the Hybrid. But with the CWish version, you would run Return to Dust and 2 Disenchants in the SB? If you were to play the CWish build, what would your SB look like atm?

FlavaSava
06-10-2008, 04:23 PM
How looks your boarding plan with the UWb Cunning LS against
- Deaguy
- Survial
- Breakfast
- different kinds of Loam-Decks?

Citrus-God
06-10-2008, 06:11 PM
It depends on what your Sideboard looks like. I still run Spell Snares in mine and such. If you want my build with boarding here's what I tend to do:


// Mana 25
1 Academy Ruins
1 Wasteland
1 Tolaria West
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Plains
2 Island

2 Eternal Dragon


// Spells 36
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Cunning Wish
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Wrath of God
2 Humility
3 Decree of Justice


// Sideboard 15
1 Return to Dust
1 Krosan Grip
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Enlighten Tutor
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Extirpate
3 Runed Halo
3 Spell Snare


Deadguy Ale:

-3 Wrath of God
-1 DoJ
-2 Fact or Fiction
-3 Cunning Wish

+3 Spell Snare
+3 Extirpate
+1 Crucible of Worlds
+1 Enlighten Tutor
+1 Runed Halo


Breakfast:

-3 Cunning Wish
-2 Fact or Fiction
-3 Wrath of God
-1 Counterspell
-1 Decree of Justice

+3 Spell Snare
+3 Extirpate
+3 Runed Halo
+1 Enlighten Tutor


Aggro-Loam:

-3 Cunning Wish
-3 Wrath of God
-2 Fact or Fiction

+3 Runed Halo
+3 Extirpate
+1 Enlighten Tutor
+1 Crucible of Worlds

Mister Agent
06-10-2008, 06:59 PM
It depends on what your Sideboard looks like. I still run Spell Snares in mine and such. If you want my build with boarding here's what I tend to do:


// Mana 25
1 Academy Ruins
1 Wasteland
1 Tolaria West
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
3 Plains
3 Island

2 Eternal Dragon


// Spells 36
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Cunning Wish
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Wrath of God
2 Humility
3 Decree of Justice


// Sideboard 15
1 Return to Dust
1 Krosan Grip
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Enlighten Tutor
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Extirpate
3 Runed Halo
3 Spell Snare


Deadguy Ale:

-3 Wrath of God
-1 DoJ
-2 Fact or Fiction
-3 Cunning Wish

+3 Spell Snare
+3 Extirpate
+1 Crucible of Worlds
+1 Enlighten Tutor
+1 Runed Halo


Breakfast:

-3 Cunning Wish
-2 Fact or Fiction
-3 Wrath of God
-1 Counterspell
-1 Decree of Justice

+3 Spell Snare
+3 Extirpate
+3 Runed Halo
+1 Enlighten Tutor


Aggro-Loam:

-3 Cunning Wish
-3 Wrath of God
-2 Fact or Fiction

+3 Runed Halo
+3 Extirpate
+1 Enlighten Tutor
+1 Crucible of Worlds

I really like your list anti-american.

Draw Engine:

Your draw engine is well-rounded because pairing fact or fictions with cunning wish gives you more advantage compared to just running either one independantly. You also don't really run out of gas either and FoF can just supplement cunning wish really well. Considering both C. wish and FoF are huge CA enablers in the late game.

Countermagic:

I like your countermagic configuration especially postboard. Running 4 CS, 4 Fow, and 3 SS in the board covers huge amount of ground in just about any matchup. Also since you run a ton of removal they tend to sum up your countermagic configuration nicely.

Citrus-God
06-12-2008, 07:58 AM
Cheat?

lol.... the Plains and the Island were supposed to be a Savannah and Tropical Island. If you guys feel that there's too much Dragon Stompy in your meta, replace the Grips with Dismantling Blow if you feel that running a third Plains and Island is better suited for your meta.

thefreakaccident
06-12-2008, 08:23 PM
I knew that there was a discrepancy some where along the line....

Anyways, I really haven't gotten a chance to test the 6 basic version w/ 3 mishra's and 3 DoJs... I have been busy with other projects... I will test it, although I always liked the other version, and didn't ever have any mana/winning issues with it... the 2island/3plains/4mishras/2decrees...

I haven't had issues with it, although I do agree that decree is the quicker and more efficient kill-con.

I just think mishra gets weaker the less of them you run... I could be wrong.

I will test it soon however!

FlavaSava
06-13-2008, 12:26 PM
Hi,
i reply my Questions:
How looks your boarding plan with the UWb Cunning LS (with Imaginärer Freunds List) against
- Deaguy
- Survial
- Breakfast
- different kinds of Loam-Decks?

NQN
06-13-2008, 12:31 PM
lol? Exactly the same question you asked before?
The actual list from Clemens is nearly the same. The only difference is M.Mage and Snare. I bet you are intelligent enough to figure out wether snare or mage is better against any deck.

FlavaSava
06-14-2008, 09:29 AM
They're Fact of Fictions, one Eternal Dragon more than in Clemens List, so i'm not sure if the boarding plan is the same.

diffy
06-14-2008, 09:54 AM
They're Fact of Fictions, one Eternal Dragon more than in Clemens List, so i'm not sure if the boarding plan is the same.

My list is currently heavily fluctuating so that I haven't made up my mind about any boarding plans concerning it yet.
I assume for the following that you're using the 24 lands (3 Factory) + 3 DoJ version.
Also, feel free to point out any inconsistencies in the boarding strategies or any possible improvements.



Boarding Strategies?


Against Deadguy Ale

-1 Decree of Justice
-3 Cunning Wish
+3 Runed Halo
+1 Enlightened Tutor

Decree gets boarded out because if your opponent is doing his job well, he should deny you of lands making DoJ rather clunky.
Cunning Wish gets the axe because there's just not a lot of good stuff to get: Slaughter Pact doesn't kill their biggest threats [Dark Confidant, Tombstalker] and the other cards are rather mediocre too.

Survival

This is very vague as there is nothing like a definitive Survival list. You have to adapt your boarding strategy to whatever variant you're facing (for instance you won't board the same against the more Rockish Survival variants than against the more midrange variants).
Following is just a general boarding strategy that can be used for most of the variants.

-1 Crucible of Worlds
-1 Eternal Dragon
-2 Decree of Justice
-1 Wrath of God
+3 Runed Halo
+2 Extirpate

Your gameplan here really is resolving and protecting a Humility and nothing else. Also, get rid of Genesis and Cabal Therapy (if they play it) as quickly as possible - those are the prime targets for your Extirpates, those and Krosan Grip if they play it. If you happen to face a red splashed variant, Burning Wish (after countering one) is also a good target for Extirpate as Wish usually is their only out to Humility.

Breakfast

-3 Wrath of God
-1 Crucible of Worlds
-1 Eternal Dragon
-2 Decree of Justice
-1 Counterspell
-1 Standstill
+4 Meddling Mage
+2 Extirpate
+3 Runed Halo

Meddling Mage will name Dread Return most of the time.

Loam-Decks

Again, this is a very vague description as there are huge differences amongst the Loam lists.

1) Against Aggro Loam:

-3 Wrath of God
-1 Standstill
-1 Counterspell
-3 Cunning Wish
-1 Decree of Justice
-1 Eternal Dragon
-1 Crucible of Worlds

+4 Meddling Mage
+3 Extirpate
+3 Runed Halo
+1 Blue Elemental Blast

Wrath of God gets replaced by Runed Halo which does exactly the same thing most of the time as they can't afford to overextend into the Wrath of Gods you might have and because they actually only need to have one creature on the table in order to win so that there's even less incentive for them to play more.
Cunning Wish comes out because its too slow.
Decree of Justice is awesome at stalling Tarmogoyfs and Crushers but sadly they also have big, fat, trampling dorks which DoJ does nothing at stopping so that you can board one out.
Crucible gets boarded out because Mage is better against Devastating Dreams as even with CoW on the table, they can still use Dreams as a tempo card to swing in for the win while you're trying to rebuild your manabase from your graveyard.
The lone Counterspell getting boarded out might look random but it isn't as you're moving your sideboard Blue Elemental Blast to the main which acts the same function as their prime threats are red (Dreams, Crusher, Wish).

Meddling Mage comes in because he truly is Mr. Awesome in this matchup due to his flexibility: he can stop the Loam engine if you don't have Extirpate, he can stop their best chance at winning the game out of nowhere by chanting Devastating Dreams and in the lategame he can even prevent them from winning by naming some wincondition which is rather effective as they don't have many (10-12) and especially not many different ones.

2) Against 43Lands:

-3 Wrath of God
-2 Humility
-4 Standstill
+4 Meddling Mage
+3 Runed Halo
+2 Extirpate

Coincidentally, this is also the boarding plan for the Landstill mirror.

Illissius
06-14-2008, 10:45 AM
Are you guys really sure Runed Halo is a sideboard card? Why? Just because the wording is similar to Ivory Mask and Meddling Mage which are sideboard cards doesn't mean it also has to be. It's effectively creature removal in many/most cases. We play creature removal maindeck.

diffy
06-14-2008, 11:12 AM
Are you guys really sure Runed Halo is a sideboard card?

I'd love to play Runed Halo main, especially since close to no-one has access to enchantment removal preboard turning it into a spot removal + Extirpate which is pretty strong, especially against all of the aggro control decks running around.
On the other hand, you already play quite a lot of removal main (so that you don't want to cut further on the non-removal package) and all (!) of them are better than Runed Halo - Engineered Explosives because of also being able to destroy artefacts and enchantments, Swords to Plowshares because of the cost and because it can actually get rid of the creature which is important against utility creatures like Dark Confidant or Meddling Mage, Wrath of God because it creates card advantage and handles multiple creatures which is especially important in your aggro matchups (Goblins & co.).
The easiest cut would be Wrath of God but you actually really need that condition-less sweeper in many matchups because otherwise, doing only 1 for 1 trades, you're eventually going to be overwhelmed by creatures.
Also, the matchups where Runed Halo really shines (aggro control) are rather good already so that I think that it best stays as an anti-combo card in the sideboard, with the little add-in of also being able to be boarded in when you have some mediocre cards in the main and normally nothing to board in (which happens quite a lot against random aggro/aggro control).

Adan
06-15-2008, 03:37 PM
Clemens "Der_imaginäre_Freund" Wolff and I played UWb Cunning Landstill at our monthly Event in hassloch and be both Top8ed, me with a 5-1 record an he with 4-1-1.

I lost against Christian Schäfer's Lands.dec-Variant (something like Eternal Garden) but annihilated the rest of the field. Clemens lost against BG Rock SOMEHOW and also SOMEHOW couldn't manage to win against UGW Threshold, ending up with a draw. O.o

Anyways, this is the liste we both played:

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [A] Tundra
1 [A] Underground Sea
1 [A] Scrubland
3 [PT] Plains (1)
3 [PT] Island (1)
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)

// Creatures
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Standstill
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
2 [IN] Fact or Fiction
4 [A] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
3 [PT] Wrath of God
2 [TE] Humility
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [SC] Decree of Justice

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [SHM] Runed Halo
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [A] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [TSP] Return to Dust

Clemens will write a "Team SPOD's performance @ Hassloch" again, I think I will simply add my own impressions.

But my matchups were:

1. Oliver Salten with Geddon Stax 2-0 Win; Ret2Dust is BROKEN SHIT, as well as Meddling Mage naming "Armageddon", hihi.

2. Patric Hiness with Mono Red Painter "Facegrinder" 2-0 Win; his deck is quite inconsistent, it always makes 1 to 1 trades and generates 0,00 CA. he runs out of gas while i still generate Ca via Standstill and fact. I am also able to handle every single Painter he plays though he has got 8 Red Blasts and 2 Active Volcano MD.

3. Christian Schäfer with "Perfect Loam" 2-0 Loss; His deck is quite similar to Lands.dec. Additionally, he's developing it for a year or so, he did play it well. Worst matchup in the room. Whatever, 5-1 is still possible!

4. Richard Lessmann with UGW Thresh 2-0; he says he will concede because he can't win with Thresh. We do price split. I won the fungame 2-0 afterwards.

5. Sebastian Page with Dragonstompy 2-1 Win; g1 I forgot to fetch in response to Magus because he distracted me, I can't explain it. That's why it was "just" a 2-1 win and not 2-0. Oo

6. Fabian Moyschewitz with Baseruption 2-1 Win. G1 he manages to race me, but the other 2 games I have the usual standard-solid draw and he has got manaflood. g2 i boarded Runed Halos, but g3 I switched to the old Extirpate-Plan again since he only runs 12 critters: 4 MM, 4 Confidant and 4 Goyf. I always sweeped him with WoG and Explosives.

And so I ended 5-1, taking the 2nd place after Manuel "derheiler" Heiler, who won the event FOR THE THIRD FUCKING TIME IN A ROW. I mean, he sucks! And his deck also sucks! And... everyone who lost against him sucks! But it's OK since he is also Team SPOD.
Only Harald "Locutus" Herrlich failed hard, performing 3-2-1 with Aggroloam. So 3 out of 4 persons of Team SPOD Top8ed.

Citrus-God
06-15-2008, 05:05 PM
So you guys are running FoF again? I would like the reasoning behind playing FoF maindeck again for this list, because you guys didnt have it a while back.

I like the cut of a copy of Cunning Wish because the toolbox is getting smaller and smaller. It's a really reasonable change.

2 DoJs makes my heart ache. I think that cutting the 4th Factory for another DoJ was the right move, but then again, maintaining the consistency of land drops early game should make up for the lack of the 3rd copy of DoJ. The 25th land is also helpful when you guys have to power out an FoF.

Adan
06-15-2008, 05:22 PM
So you guys are running FoF again? I would like the reasoning behind playing FoF maindeck again for this list, because you guys didnt have it a while back.

I like the cut of a copy of Cunning Wish because the toolbox is getting smaller and smaller. It's a really reasonable change.

2 DoJs makes my heart ache. I think that cutting the 4th Factory for another DoJ was the right move, but then again, maintaining the consistency of land drops early game should make up for the lack of the 3rd copy of DoJ. The 25th land is also helpful when you guys have to power out an FoF.

I guess Clemens has always got better explanations than I have concering Landstill, the reason why I played it was because Clemens was whining around before the tourney. And so I simply copy-pasted his list and played.

Well, I don't know why exactly he cutted the 3rd Decree again. But his boarding plans were always "-1 Decree" and so I said: "Why are you running the 3rd Decree instead of a 4th Mishra if you are boarding it out against nearly everything?".

But I think it has rather to do with the inclusion of FoF. Crucible is somehow getting worse from time to time, and therefor it was cut for FoF. The 3rd Decree can therefore be cut for a second FoF, because Fof digs 5 cards deep, which can find the Decrees quite efficiently. Or solutions.

I find the last thesis more plausible than the first one, because I hardly have influence on Clemens' ideas when we are talking about Landstill. But I suggested to cut Wasteland, because a singleton Wasteland is pretty useless if you are not running Crucible anymore.

diffy
06-16-2008, 07:08 AM
The reason why I played it was because Clemens was whining around before the tourney. And so I simply copy-pasted his list and played.


You, Sir, should better listen more often to me - Landstill was just the perfect choice for the tournament: three people played the deck and all of them top8ed. The third Landstill player in the top8 was Mario Hirstein with a pre-FoF list.

I played against RB Goblins (2-0), The Rock (1-2), NQG/w (1-1), UWB Fish (2-1), Suicide BW (2-1) and Mono R Painter (2-1), in that order.

Observations made during the tournament:
I boarded Runed Halo every round, especially to replace mediocre cards from the maindeck which is just what I thought the Runed Halos would do in the non-combo matchups, which is great.
The manabase has reached a point of stability at which you can often fully ignore Blood Moon effects. Wasteland still hurts sometimes if used as a tempo card (to keep you off 4 mana) though.
I often wished to have that third DoJ back in especially since it is your very best tool to end a game that you have under control before the opponent can recover.

A short report can be found here (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=242848&postcount=1).



So you guys are running FoF again? I would like the reasoning behind playing FoF maindeck again for this list, because you guys didnt have it a while back.


While I absolutely dislike Fact or Fiction as a card because its clunky and will most often only give you a net Card Advantage of one as the good opponent will always split the piles so that you basically have to take the smaller one, it is still one of the best draw spells available in Legacy, especially since it digs five cards deep which helps a lot in finding solutions.
I never felt the need for additional card draw with the old lists and so never felt the need for additional FoFs, but then, over the last couple of months, I increasingly grew to dislike Crucible of Worlds (slow, doesn't affect the board, often winmore) so that I wanted to try something else in this slot. I then wanted to replace CoW with a card that is also decent in the matchups in which CoW is rather good but better in the others and came to the conclusion that additional draw spells would fill the gap the lack of Crucible would open as more CA balances out the loss of Crucible in both the control and attrition matchups.
With a singleton Fact or Fiction in the deck, I then started to think about cutting another card I was increasingly annoyed with: Cunning Wish. I still think that Cunning Wish is essential in Landstill, especially to beat your bad matchups preboard, but, on the other hand, drawing two is often a devastating tempo sink in your average or better matchups. Now I asked myself if I wasn't hurting my bad matchups too much by cutting a Cunning Wish: you actually don't need to improve your average or better matchups in my opinion. I came to the conclusion that you aren't hurting your bad matchups at all if you replace a Cunning Wish with another Fact or Fiction as FoF can always help dig for the Wish so that with two copies of it main you're actually increasing your odds to hit the Wish in time.



2 DoJs makes my heart ache. I think that cutting the 4th Factory for another DoJ was the right move.


I too think that for the non-FoF lists this was the correct choice.
Me switching back to the old configuration was directly linked to the inclusion of Fact or Fiction as with even more expensive spells, you really need to be able to make those first 4-6 land drops consistently even in the face of Wasteland or you're going to make your life just too hard. Fact or Fiction also helps to replenish your hand after making all those land drops making sure that you don't run out of spells.



I suggested to cut Wasteland, because a singleton Wasteland is pretty useless if you are not running Crucible any more.


While I don't agree with this statement as the singleton Wasteland can always be useful to kill opposing manlands or utility lands like Volrath's Stronghold, the cut of the Wasteland for another fetchland does also make your manabase even more stable which is worth the loss of the added flexibility. Tolaria West is still great even after the cut of the toolbox Wasteland though.

undone
06-19-2008, 05:20 PM
Ok, I am considering Playing this deck And was curious what is the optimal build for a combo heavy metagame, and Ichorid heavy metagame. There will probably be lots of goblins/aggro too.

Burr
06-19-2008, 05:22 PM
A sideboard with Runed Halo + Meddling Mages should put an end to combo decks.

thefreakaccident
06-19-2008, 05:32 PM
This is also a very good choice...

I rapes all those decks you said you would see, although I doubt you would survive the long tournament... here is my current list (I think it is the same as DIF's):

lands//24
1 underground sea
1 scrubland
3 island
3 plains
4 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
4 mishra's factory
1 academy ruins
1 tolaria west
4 tundra

creatures//1
1 eternal dragon

removal//12
4 swords to plowshares
3 wrath of god
3 engineered explosives
2 humility

permission//8
4 counterspell
4 force of will

card advantage//12
4 standstill
4 brainstorm
2 fact or fiction
2 cunning wish

win//3
3 decree of justice


I have found this to be the best build I could get for my troubles...

My sideboard fluctuates:

4 meddling mage (non-negotiable)
4 runed halo/ghostly prison/engineered plague
1 pulse of the fields
3 extirpate
1 enlightened tutor
1 return to dust
1 slaughter pact


The runed halo slot is a meta choice, if you go with plague, you'll want to go:
-1 island
+1 underground sea

in the Md, the prisons are really good in a random meta like mine, where random agro is rampant, and it has the benefit of totally shutting off ichorid, which plague doesn't do... halo is good if you expect combo in force (by force I mean play it twice in a tourney)... Hope this helps.

undone
06-19-2008, 05:42 PM
That looks interesting, What about the following few changes would these work

MD
-1 FOF
+1 Cunning wish
-1 FOF
+1 wincondition... whatever is best after DoJ

is FOF really that good?

diffy
06-19-2008, 05:51 PM
What is the optimal build for a combo heavy metagame, and Ichorid heavy metagame. There will probably be lots of goblins/aggro too.

I have never built a variant for such a metagame, mainly because it is incredibly rare to find enough combo at a certain event to warrant metagaming for it.
Here're some thoughts though (taking this (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2559348&postcount=12) list as reference for all the changes):
Playing Runed Halo main makes your combo matchup better while not really harming any others, I'd probably cut any combination of Fact or Fictions and Wrath of Gods for them as they're too slow in the combo matchups.
Try -3 Wrath of God +3 Runed Halo for starters. You're harming your 'random aggro' and NQG matchups with this change though as you're including more cards that can get hit by Counterbalance and cut your most powerful removal spell.
If you expect lots of Ichorid, you should play Moat over Humility main: a resolved Moat often spells 'gg' against Ichorid whereas Humility only makes them slower.
-2 Humility +2 Moat. Again, you're hurting your other matchups by doing this change (random aggro, Goblins) but the most important matchup, NQG, isn't hurt too much. Against combo, both are close to irrelevant so that there's no real difference here.
For a combo heavy metagame, Stifles are also an auto-include. I'd start cutting the clunkier cards for the Stifles, especially Fact or Fiction and Decree of Justice are just too slow.
-1 Decree of Justice -2 Fact or Fiction +3 Stifle. I absolutely hate this change though as, outside of the combo matchups, Stifle is a horrible card in Cunning Landstill - it doesn't affect the board, it's a bad topdeck and the tempo gain is often minimal as most decks can operate on 1-2 lands just fine.
Moving the Runed Halos to the main, you free up 3 slots in the sideboard - those can be then filled with anything, the best options include Stifle/Runed Halo n°4, Engineered Plagues, or even more Blue Elemental Blasts. I'd probably go with more Blue Elemental Blasts (good against combo [Burning Wish, Vexing Shusher] and Goblins).
Sideboard: -3 Runed Halo +3 Blue Elemental Blast

But really, this is a variant to only be played in this particular, combo heavy, metagame - I would definitely not play it in a broader/unknown meta.



Is FOF really that good?


Fact isn't amazing but it's still good enough to be considered as a choice for the maindeck - it digs 5 cards deep searching you a solution for the current problem in 9 cases out of 10 and creates some card advantage while doing so (both in 'raw' terms meaning that you have more cards in hand after casting Fact and in 'virtual' terms meaning that you get the card which is best for the current situation). Replacing a Cunning Wish with it was definitely the right move since the Wish is extremely clunky and because Fact can also act as a pseudo Wish because of its dig. I wouldn't play it in aforementioned metagame though.

thefreakaccident
06-19-2008, 05:55 PM
Hey, we do have the same MD :D ...

My meta has hardly any red, hence the no BeB thing.. although, if DStompy became popular again, I would definitely put it in in place of the fourth halo..

That's funny :D

Mulletus
06-19-2008, 07:00 PM
I was thinking about building this deck... but I want to try Bitterblossum. It makes threats under the standstill. Even with multiples it might be good.

NQN
06-20-2008, 12:03 PM
It sucks cocks. You will die too often so Blossom because you never ever want to be the one who makes the pressure. I don´t know how to explain HOW bad this card is in a LS because of my missing english skills but it is just freaking bad :D

undone
06-20-2008, 12:21 PM
BBlossome is about as bad in this deck, as writing on black lotus's to make proxies for wood elementals. There I said it most simply.

It is just like that in all versions.

All I know is that This version seems more stable then the UWbg versions with deed, granted a little less powerful because wrath doesnt destroy CB, 3Sphear, Blood moon, Vial exct but its STABLE.

Adan
06-20-2008, 03:21 PM
What's the matter with Bitterblossom?! Why does everyone want to play it in almost every deck?

If you want to play a card that generates threats unter SStill without making lifeloss - and I mean useful threats - play Hoofprints of the Stag. You might replace Humilities with Moats then or play a split between Moat and Humility, the problem is just that one cards knocks out another:

Moat makes Decree suck,

Humility makes Hoofprints suck.

And as Clemens has already elaborated in several posts, you actually never want to play "pure" win-cons, you always want to play versatile cards that can act as winning conditions:

Eternal Dragon can be used to ramp mana,
Decree can do combat tricks, acting as semi-removal, generating CA and fog.
Mishra can beat the opponent and... yeah, it can produce mana.

But Hoofprints and Bitterblossom can only spawn critters. But Decree does it better in almost every situation.

Citrus-God
06-20-2008, 05:20 PM
The kill mechanism in Landstill is usually within 2 Turns late game. Blitterblossom doesnt let you kill in 2 Turns... Just play DoJ. Also, Bitterblossom blows as a card in Landstill. The point of Landstill is to maneuver yourself in a dominant position, not play cute threats under Standstill. Factories dont count because they dont interfere with your control cards and deck space. They also make fantastic blockers and actually produce mana. Bitterblossom just stalls when what you're suppose to do is answer and start chaining draw.

Illissius
06-21-2008, 08:06 PM
What about Vengeful Dreams for the wishboard?

Sanguine Voyeur
06-21-2008, 08:53 PM
Vengeful Dreams seems to be too much risk for too little reward. If it resolves, it's an x+1 for x in any reasonable case. It can never be card advantage unless you're facing auras. If it's countered, you just lost a lot of cards for no effect with a spell on the most common Counterbalance spot.

Wing Shards, on the other hand, can be card advantage if paired with cantrips, counter spells, Wish itself, or against haste creatures all while avoiding Counterbalance and possibly counter spells.

Illissius
06-21-2008, 09:23 PM
I didn't think of it to be Wished for against decks with countermagic; or at least, there aren't many decks around which both attack you with armies and also back them up with counters (Slivers, maybe). And it's meant to be the very opposite of card advantage: a way to cleanly and easily translate many cards from your hand into tempo (board position) in cases where you are very behind on that front.

Sanguine Voyeur
06-21-2008, 09:36 PM
Against what decks would Vengeful Dreams be effective? Not Goblins, you can't win against Goblins with one for one's. Not Aggro Loam, there are more efficient way to deal with Aggro Loam's threats. Not Affinity, artifact based removal would be better against that. Any Stompy deck is already a good match up.

If you use it to wipe the board, you're opponent may be in a bad position, but you're likely to be in an even worse one.

Adan
06-22-2008, 08:32 AM
What about Vengeful Dreams for the wishboard?

Vengeful Dreams = carddisadvantage!

Too bad. But try Wind Shards if you want such a card. It's also "resistant" against Counters thanks to Storm (6 Mana are expansive, tho).

konsultant
06-22-2008, 07:45 PM
I don't think there is room in the SB of any Landstill builds for "cute trick" cards like Vengefull Dreams. In fact the reason I eventually went away from wish was because I didn't have the room for the cards to fully power it. I understand the versatility that is still capable in the mini wish boards that are being run and how it give's you access to things like Extirpate and Pulse of the Fields whitch can both be very situational but still can be game breaking if you have them at the right time, but as it is nobody is even running a counter effect as a wish target I don't see how making room for things like Vengeful Dreams is a wise descision.

I'm glad that the Runed Halo's are finally being played in some side boards, it's the first powerful addition we have gotten for Landstill in a long time and I would hate to see that card being over-looked.

I believe to have worked all the kinks out of my current UWg without wish build. I have won 3 of the last 4 tournaments that I have entered with it and I took third yesterday losing to Imperial Painter, (a match about 90% in my favor) in top 4. My team mate couldn't have picked his hand better and I double mulled game 3. Hopefully the card god's will be kinder to me this coming week but either way I'll post the list after the event in Hadley this Saturday along with some card choice reasonings.

I will state this though, as much of an advocate for Cunning Wish that I used to be I don't miss the card at all anymore. Runed Halo provide's the diversity that was needed from Wish originally but is considerably faster and usually more effective.

Mister Agent
06-23-2008, 10:38 PM
Bitterblossom is definitely not needed in UWb landstill. Considering just about every time you draw it it's going to be subpar compared to other cards you should be running in those slots.

Eternal dragon, decree, and mishra's factories are plenty of kills for UWb landstill already the deck does not need more. Besides cunning wish supplements your win conditions quite well and aids you in just about any matchup.

Runed Halo is another reason why you don't need bitterblossom considering halo compliments UWb LS much more. But the best thing about Runed halo is the enchantment is awesome just about every time you draw it.

Drac
06-27-2008, 04:28 AM
The New cards from Eventide.

Raven's Crime and Worm's Harvest.

If Loam starts playing these cards how can a landstill player still expect to win?
I know you are going to say extirpate, but ravens crime will cause major problems together with loam, and if we extirpate loam, the harvest will still pritty much make it gg. turning every land they draw into 7+ tokens.

Please negate my doomthinking

Illissius
06-27-2008, 12:16 PM
Leyline of the Void, Moat, Engineered Plague. Probably more. God I wish Runed Halo worked for tokens...

Nihil Credo
06-27-2008, 12:40 PM
Also: Ruins+EE (assuming you've Extirpated Loam already), Meddling Mage.

Runed Halo may not work for tokens, but you can name Raven's Crime with it.

NQN
06-27-2008, 04:02 PM
Does it really matter if a bad matchup becomes worse or not? I don´t think so...

Shawn
06-29-2008, 03:26 PM
I played UWb landstill at the Monsters Den Black Lotus Tournament yesterday and went 5-2, missing top 8 by a point. Here's the report:

At 8:15, six of us left from Iowa for the tournament, and I still was unsure of what deck I was going to play. I had two decks in mind, either mono blue control or UWb landstill. I picked landstill since I didn't like the mono blue lists we had, and began piecing the deck together while listening to a playlist which included Beastie Boys, Dropkick Murphys, and RATM. I change my playlist to Eagles to relax once we arrived in Minneapolis.

We arrived, registered, made sure our decks were correct, and started around 1:20. More than 70 people were in attendance, and it looked like the field would contain a lot of thresh, landstill, dredge, and black aggro.

Here's my list:

Land (24)

4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Windswept Heath
2 Underground Sea
4 Tundra
1 Wasteland
1 Ruins
1 Tolaria West
4 Factories
2 Island
3 Plains

36 other

3 Explosives
4 Swords
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Counterspell
2 Cunning Wish
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Fact or Fiction
3 Wrath
2 Humility
3 Decree
4 Force of Will

SB:
2 Wheel of Sun and Moon
3 Runed Halo
3 Extirpate
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Hydroblast
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Wing Shards
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Dismantling Blow

No Dragons were run in the list since I find him really slow, and he's awful under Humility. The second Underground Sea should have been a Scrubland, but we didn't have access to any so I ran a Heath instead of the 2nd Delta. 1 Crucible was also ran since I needed a recurring win-condition because I didn't have any Dragons. The Wheels were in the board since I wanted more than 3 Extirpates to fight dredge and loam. The extra blast was obviously for Dragon Stompy, and goblins, and the pair of Dismantling Blows were were in against random/ Counterbalance.

Round 1: Josh

Game 1 he plays a blind Cabal Therapy, naming Phyrexian Dreadnought after seeing my Tundras and Factory. He plays some Wall of Blossoms and I find Crucible-Waste, and go to town. I Wasteland and Extirpate his Volrath's Stronghold. He eventually Vindicates Crucible but he's already to far behind for it to matter. I end the game with 13 Life.

1-0

Game two he Thoughtseizes and therapies away my hand and beats down with Goyfs and Bobs.

1-1

Game three I get Crucible-Waste on turn 3 and he scoops. He seemed really pissed.

2-1, 1-0

Round 2 I get paired against Ian Ellis, playing bg rack. I stall the board, and play a Crucible, which he scoops to a few turns later.

3-1, 1-0
Game two he has double The Rack, then lays a third. I blow them up with EE at 1, and he then plays an Augur of Skulls and Goyf, tapping out. I EE for two, and forget that the Augur can regenerate and wait a turn to blow it up. I get beat down by a 1/1.

3-2, 1-0

Game three he starts out with a Leyline of the Void in play, I Runed Halo'd a Hyppie, and then won with Decree for some dudes.

4-2, 2-0

Round three I get paired against Ari, who is playing Ugb Goyf/counterbalance/dreadnought/painters servant.

Game one I stick a Humility, and win easy. He very deliberate in making his plays and took his time game one.

5-2, 2-0

Game two I counter some stuff and proceed to Runed Halo Grindstone when he has the combo in play. I also have the Swords in hand if he has the Grip on Halo. I EE for 1 one point in this game and blow it up at his eot, and he says ok, when he has both Top and Grindstone in play, and I point to the Top.

6-2, 3-0

Round for I get paired against Jim, who was the one who drove us from Iowa. I'm not only upset about getting paired against a friend, I know he's playing dredge since we've been playtesting the last couple of days.

Game one I keep an ok hand, and he eventually dredges into Narc,Narc, Ichorid, Dread Return. I scoop to save time for games 2 and 3.

6-3, 3-0

Game two I Extirpate Bridge since I have the Swords for the Ichorid he dredged into, and cast a turn 3 Wheel. He enters the scoop phase.

7-4, 3-0

Game three I notice the judge standing behind Jim, staring at Jim. He tells Jim he drew an extra card, and made him mulligan. He has a slow start, discarding an Ichorid, which I Halo, and he scoops; showing his hand without discard enablers.

8-4, 4-0

Round 5 I get paired against Blake, who played br suicide.

Game one he has a slow start and I cast Humility and proceed to win from there. I didn't see him fetch for duals the whole game, so I thought he was playing BG. I boarded in Dismantling Blows for possible Chokes.

Game two he has a slow start with Swamp, Wasteland. Turn 3 he fetches for Badlands and casts Magus of the Moon, which I kill. I untap and Waste his land. Eventually I make five dudes with decree, but he has the Fire Covenant to kill them off. I Runed Halo both Tombstalker and Hyppie, but he Bolts me then Smash to Smithereens my Crucible for the game.

8-5, 4-0

Game three he goes for Dark Ritual, Hyppie. I untap, draw Swords and Hyppie goes farming. He casts Magus, which I have to Wish for Blast to kill it. I have Humility and double Halo in play again, and I eot make 6 guys, which get killed by Fire Covenant again. A few turns later he Bolts me, and does it again for lethal, which I counter. I ask if Smash to Smithereens targets a player, which it doesn't. I attack with Factory, it gets Smashed, I respond with Swords, he responds with another, and that's ball game folks. Really fun match.

8-6, 4-1

Round six I get paired against Alex, who's playing 4 color thresh. I'm very exciting to be playing this rather than some of the other decks in contention, such as High Tide, and 42 lands.

Game 1 kill his guys, lay Humility, and win at 18 life. I feel really confident at this point, knowing if I win game 2 or 3 I can draw into the top 8.

9-6, 4-1

Game two I keep a two land hand, and then miss my next two land drops. He plays a Dark Confidant, and I can't play EE since I have a colorless land in play. He then plays Gaddock Teeg, and eventually double Goyf and I scoop.

9-7, 4-1

Game 3 I Force his turn one Goose, Counterspell his turn two Teeg. He eventually plays goyf, and extirpate. I have Ruins in play and an EE in the yard, so I point to the Humility he Forced. He takes it, and I put EE on top and kill his Goyf. He then plays Mystic Enforcer, and I didn't find an answer. My life total goes from 19 to 13 to 7 to 1 to 0. GG

9-8, 4-2

I'm pretty disappointed that I dropped two in a row, including one to thresh, especially after I crushed him game 1. We're told 5-2 has a shot at top, so I need to win this round.

I'm paired against Chris, who is also playing Uwb landstill, but without Facts and with a larger Wish-board. I really, really don't want to play the mirror, since I thought we'd end up going to time and drawing.

Game one he misses his fourth land drop, and is very despondent. I begin to play faster, excited that he's light on lands, and go on offensive, making 2 decree tokens and a Factory. He Swords the Factory than Wrathed away my board. He has a Factory, which eats a Swords from me. I cycle my second Decree for 3 and beat him down to 14. At the end of his turn I cast Cunning Wish, which causes a counter war. He Wishes for Pact of Negation with six lands in play and counters it. I have a Wasteland in play and realize if I draw Crucible, I win on my turn. I draw Brainstorm, drawing EE, Crucible, and Counterspell. I play Crucicle, Waste, and Waste again. Awesome. GG

10-8, 4-2

Game two we trade Factories for Swords. He casts Crucible and I Force it, then Extirpate it on my turn, seeing a hand of Force, 2 EE, STP, Humility, Decree, and Wrath. He continues to miss land drops and I make some decree tokens. He kills them with EE, which I Extirpate. I make more tokens and swing with those and Factory, which he tries to Swords. I have the Counter for it. He untaps and says go, and I attack. He scoops, since he was dead even if he cast the Wrath due to the Factory. I had the Counterspell in hand if needed. This match only lasts a suprising 25-30 minutes.

11-8, 5-2 match record

I watch some of the other matches in contention, and find out that I'll miss top 8 by a point. Oh well.

Props:
The store owner for running a nice tournament
Brainstorm into my 1-of Crucible
My opponents. All of my games were enjoyable, and the ones against Blake and Alex were awesome. (even though I lost both matches)

Slops:
Gas for being expensive
The Chinese food buffet for having cold food
Me, for never finding Wish into Pulse against Br
Me, for not blowing up the EE right away against BG rack
The guy that tossed his Gatorade bottle at the van we were in on our way to the tournament, wtf.

Interesting plays I saw throughout the day:
*Teferi in response to Dreadnought (it got Forced, though)
*A mono blue counterwar with at least 7 counters on the stack
*TES making 14 green men turn one against aggro loam, loam plays land, Mox Diamond, Burning Wish for Clasm, take 14, Clasm, next turn chalice for 1, Goyf
*Muc beating affinity in 9 turns total, taking the match in 3 minutes. Powder Keg away lands both games, and Needle on Plating in the second

Thoughts about the deck:

I think the deck needs another mana source, whether it's another land or Dragon. I made my first land drops almost every time but would sometimes stall after 5 or 6. A lot of my Brainstorms were digging for lands. Not being able to finish off br before he drew his burn was annoying, another way to get pulse or a faster win-condition would've been nice. I didn't miss the Meddling Magi, and I don't think I would've boarded him in often to be worth the slots. I only saw one combo deck in the room.

Nihil Credo
06-29-2008, 05:56 PM
Nice job. A few questions.


it looked like the field would contain a lot of thresh, landstill, dredge, and black aggro. (...)

SB:
2 Wheel of Sun and Moon
3 Runed Halo
3 Extirpate
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Hydroblast
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Wing Shards
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Dismantling Blow

No Mages? They would have been great in the Deed Landstill pseudo-mirror. EDIT: Nm, read below.


No Dragons were run in the list since I find him really slow, and he's awful under Humility. The second Underground Sea should have been a Scrubland, but we didn't have access to any so I ran a Heath instead of the 2nd Delta.

If you don't run Eternal Dragon, then I would say that a second U.Sea is better than a Scrubland, especially since you run 3 Plains and 2 Islands already. Getting your black source Extirpated is neither likely nor terrible.


Round 5 I get paired against Blake, who played br suicide.

Game one he has a slow start and I cast Humility and proceed to win from there. I didn't see him fetch for duals the whole game, so I thought he was playing BG. I boarded in Dismantling Blows for possible Chokes.

Chokes? Did you mean Blood Moon?


Game 3 I Force his turn one Goose... My life total goes from 20 to 14 to 8 to 2 to 0.

I assume this is just a typo, but no matter.


Game two we trade Factories for Swords. He casts Crucible and I Force it, then Extirpate it on my turn, seeing a hand of Force, 2 EE, STP, Humility, Decree, and Wrath.

Keeping Humility and Wrath in for the mirror seems quite... odd. I wonder what his SB looked like.

Shawn
06-29-2008, 06:08 PM
Chokes? Did you mean Blood Moon?
I didn't see any Bolts or Badlands game one so I figured it was Eva Green. People were asking for Chokes before the tournament.



I assume this is just a typo, but no matter.
Yeah, it should read 19-13-7-1-0.



Keeping Humility and Wrath in for the mirror seems quite... odd. I wonder what his SB looked like.

I thought that as well. He said he had a huge wish-board, and I saw an Echoing Truth and Pact.



If you don't run Eternal Dragon, then I would say that a second U.Sea is better than a Scrubland, especially since you run 3 Plains and 2 Islands already. Getting your black source Extirpated is neither likely nor terrible.
At one point against Ichorid I wished one of the Seas was a Scrubland; I had a Fetch, plains, Extirpate and Wheel in hand. I drew another white source the next turn, and it didn't end up mattering.

Jason
06-30-2008, 07:23 PM
*Teferi in response to Dreadnought (it got Forced, though)


Hehe...that was me. I Explosives'd for one the next turn. Dead Dreadnought :cool:

TopGun
06-30-2008, 07:46 PM
I believe to have worked all the kinks out of my current UWg without wish build. I have won 3 of the last 4 tournaments that I have entered with it and I took third yesterday losing to Imperial Painter, (a match about 90% in my favor) in top 4. My team mate couldn't have picked his hand better and I double mulled game 3. Hopefully the card god's will be kinder to me this coming week but either way I'll post the list after the event in Hadley this Saturday along with some card choice reasonings.


C'mon, c'mon....don't keep us hangin'!!!

Citrus-God
07-02-2008, 08:27 PM
I believe to have worked all the kinks out of my current UWg without wish build. I have won 3 of the last 4 tournaments that I have entered with it and I took third yesterday losing to Imperial Painter, (a match about 90% in my favor) in top 4. My team mate couldn't have picked his hand better and I double mulled game 3. Hopefully the card god's will be kinder to me this coming week but either way I'll post the list after the event in Hadley this Saturday along with some card choice reasonings.

So do we get to see it yet? If not, you should PM me the list.

3duece
07-02-2008, 09:03 PM
So I have a question about landstill for you experts out there. I'm trying to decide on the best removal artifact for strictly Uw landstill. I like the explosives because it hits all nonland permanents, but you can't get it bigger than 2 unless you splash other duals. Powder keg rocks as far as cost and killing most things small, I think if I ran any I would run four. Finally, disk is more of a mana and time investment but rapes the board. Can anyone give me some insight into which will be better in most situations?

TopGun
07-02-2008, 11:38 PM
So I have a question about landstill for you experts out there. I'm trying to decide on the best removal artifact for strictly Uw landstill. I like the explosives because it hits all nonland permanents, but you can't get it bigger than 2 unless you splash other duals. Powder keg rocks as far as cost and killing most things small, I think if I ran any I would run four. Finally, disk is more of a mana and time investment but rapes the board. Can anyone give me some insight into which will be better in most situations?

I'm not by any means claiming to be an expert, but you can easily splash black (or possibly green) in UW Landstill to use explosives while also giving you powerful sideboard options/necessities. This also lets your powerful enchantments/ artifacts live (like humility/crucible) while selectively dissecting your opponent's board. That would IMHO be the best option.

If you are absolutely set on only 2 color, my vote is for disk. Resetting the board while you run card advantage, permission, and removal is pretty strong.

P.S.-Konsultant, still waiting on that list. Please pm me if you're not up for sharing it publicly. Those are my favorite colors, and I'd really like to see them work.

3duece
07-02-2008, 11:51 PM
Gotcha. If I were to splash black just to fuel the explosives and for sideboard how much mana would I need? Would 2 Underground Sea and 2 Polluted Delta be sufficient? Basically-
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
4 Flooded Strain
2 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
1 Faerie Conclave
3 Island
2 Plains

Does this work? Not exactly on a budget, but not trying to spend another $100 on land.

3duece
07-02-2008, 11:54 PM
Tolaria West and Academy Ruins seem awesome too, how could I fit them in?

Citrus-God
07-03-2008, 12:58 AM
Tolaria West and Academy Ruins seem awesome too, how could I fit them in?

Cut 2 Wastelands for 1 Academy Ruins and 1 Tolaria West. Also, cut an Island for a Eternal Dragon. Also, cut a Sea for a Scrubland. There, you saved $20 on a black source.

TopGun
07-03-2008, 04:52 AM
I've been playtesting with:

4 Fl. Strand
2 P. Delta
4 Tundra
3 Plains
2 Island
1 Scrubland
2 Underground Sea
4 Mishra's
1 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
1 Tolaria West
1 Eternal Dragon

This was DerIF's original base, and I really like it. It's very robust against wasteland, moon effects, and color screw. Recently he removed e. plagues from the board...allowing him to go -1 U. Sea, +1 Island MD.

FlavaSava
07-03-2008, 11:59 AM
// Lands
1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Plains
2 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Tolaria West
4 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Wasteland
1 Faerie Conclave

// Creatures
1 Eternal Dragon
1 Jace Beleren

// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Cunning Wish
2 Decree of Justice
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of Will
2 Humility
4 Standstill
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Fact or Fiction
2 Oblivion Stone

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 3 Extirpate
SB: 1 Hydroblast
SB: 4 Meddling Mage
SB: 1 Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 Return to Dust
SB: 1 Slaughter Pact
SB: 3 Runed Halo

Thats my list, i put in a Faerie Conclave for an Island, because of the mirror match up. What do you say to my list.

Adan
07-03-2008, 12:02 PM
So do we get to see it yet? If not, you should PM me the list.

Same here. Or PM it to Clemens ( Der_imaginäre_Freund ). I'd really like to see some innovation...

diffy
07-03-2008, 12:59 PM
What do you say to my list.


Some comments:

I've recently grown to dislike Crucible of Worlds because it's '3 mana: do nothing' at first with the effect not really getting that much more impressive later on: with the current very stable manabase you actually don't need the mana fixing effect that much. I think you can safely cut it.
Oblivion Stone is suboptimal - you shouldn't be playing it especially not over Wrath of God:
It costs 8 mana total (wasting two of your turns completely) making it slower than Wrath of God and a horrible topdeck.
It is vulnerable to too many commonly played cards (Stifle, Krosan Grip, Pithing Needle, Counterbalance).
It is unneeded - most of the time you're going to kill creatures with your sweepers: there are just not that many non-creature permanents out there and even less you care of... the few that could bother you (Survival, Counterbalance, all of the relevant Enchantress stuff etc.) can be handled by Engineered Explosives which are most of the time even better at handling Artefacts/Enchantments than other options like Oblivion Stone or Nevinyrral's Disk because they are cheaper and therefore faster. The rare things that aren't handled by Engineered Explosives (there are really not many of them... the Affinity stuff, Smokestack, Moat etc.) can be shut of by Cunning Wish for Return to Dust so why play a sweeper that is worse in 90% of the cases if you even have outs for the remaining 10%?
I don't like Jace Beleren either:
He's very slow - if you compare him to the already clunky Fact or Fiction, you can clearly see yet another difference in speed terms: Jace will need until turn7 to dig as deep as FoF and gives your opponent Card Advantage (CA) while doing so too. This makes him both a terrible dig and a questionable CA-Creator.
He's too vulnerable - you really want your CA-Engines as reliable as possible.
I also think that you shouldn't be playing the Enlightened Tutor in the main - for sure it's a very flexible card and can search a wide array of good (or even gamebreaking) spells but you always have to keep in mind that it creates Card Disadvantage and that it's rather slow too (you only get the thing you Tutored up a turn later). I'd rather play more Draw or actually broken cards over him which will have the same effect than playing the Tutor: you'll have a better access to good cards.

Here's the list I'm currently playing:



/// Maindeck (60 cards)

// Lands (23)
4 Flooded Strand (http://magiccards.info/on/en/316.html)
2 Polluted Delta (http://magiccards.info/on/en/321.html)
4 Tundra (http://magiccards.info/be/en/300.html)
1 Underground Sea (http://magiccards.info/be/en/301.html)
1 Scrubland (http://magiccards.info/be/en/294.html)
2 Plains (http://magiccards.info/apac/en/4.html)
3 Island (http://magiccards.info/apac/en/12.html)
1 Tolaria West (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/173.html)
1 Academy Ruins (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/269.html)
4 Mishra's Factory (http://magiccards.info/aq/en/67.html)

// Winconditions (5)
2 Eternal Dragon (http://magiccards.info/sc/en/12.html)
3 Decree of Justice (http://magiccards.info/sc/en/8.html)

// Card Advantage (12)
4 Brainstorm (http://magiccards.info/mm/en/61.html)
4 Standstill (http://magiccards.info/od/en/102.html)
2 Cunning Wish (http://magiccards.info/ju/en/37.html)
2 Fact or Fiction (http://magiccards.info/in/en/57.html)

// Permission (8)
4 Counterspell (http://magiccards.info/be/en/55.html)
4 Force of Will (http://magiccards.info/ai/en/42.html)

// Removal (12)
4 Swords to Plowshares (http://magiccards.info/ia/en/278.html)
3 Wrath of God (http://magiccards.info/po/en/202.html)
2 Humility (http://magiccards.info/tp/en/236.html)
3 Engineered Explosives (http://magiccards.info/5dn/en/118.html)

/// Sideboard (15 cards)
4 Meddling Mage (http://magiccards.info/ps/en/116.html)
3 Runed Halo (http://magiccards.info/shm/en/21.html)
3 Extirpate (http://magiccards.info/pc/en/71.html)
1 Blue Elemental Blast (http://magiccards.info/be/en/50.html)
1 Enlightened Tutor (http://magiccards.info/mr/en/218.html)
1 Slaughter Pact (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/78.html)
1 Pulse of the Fields (http://magiccards.info/ds/en/11.html)
1 Return to Dust (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/39.html)


The most notable change since the last version is the addition of the second Eternal Dragon - playing more winconditions that actually end the game after getting cast is important as more and more decks can actually try and recover during the time you've taken control of the game but not ended it yet (e.g. any deck that can force an Intuition or similar engine through). It is especially good if you can include more winconditions without actually hurting your consistency much: Eternal Dragon can still act as a pseudo-fetchland which is from time to time even better than its Onslaught counterpart (e.g. against a resolved Blood Moon). The Dragon also partly plays the role of the formerly removed Crucible of Worlds (producing mana-advantage in the control mirror) - playing two will therefore not only increase your kill speed but also compensate the loss of a strong engine in the control matches.

Nihil Credo
07-03-2008, 01:31 PM
I'm surprised that you dislike Crucible, Clemens (especially considering the presence of Stax and Loam in das alte Deutschland). Personally, I still find it key, particularly for the control matchup, since there is a noticeable power jump between having 4-5 lands in play and having 8-9 of them. Much like in Stax, it does little on its own, but it "enables" most of your deck: Decree and Eternal Dragon now become serious threats much earlier, and a single Mishra's Factory can force your opponent to play two creatures into a Wrath.

Burr
07-04-2008, 01:22 AM
Same here. Or PM it to Clemens ( Der_imaginäre_Freund ). I'd really like to see some innovation...

I too would also love to see your list. I am a huge fan of UWx Landstill and would like to see what people are adding or subtracting from their lists.

3duece
07-04-2008, 05:55 PM
I assume this is a dumb question, but doesn't humility affect activated manlands?

Jak
07-04-2008, 05:59 PM
I assume this is a dumb question, but doesn't humility affect activated manlands?

Nope.

Adan
07-04-2008, 06:00 PM
I assume this is a dumb question, but doesn't humility affect activated manlands?

No, their effects both happen in different layers, with Mishra's effect being in the superior layer to Humility's.

That's why they remain 2/2, but without the possibility to pump (which is not necessary when Humility is out).

TeKo
07-04-2008, 06:24 PM
Sorry, but I think that is wrong.
It's the same Layer, but because you activated Mishra after Humility comes into play Mishra is 2/2 (with no pump-ability). (Timestamp)
Can't really explain that ;)

Jak
07-04-2008, 06:42 PM
It becomes a 2/2 after SBE are checked in layer 6a. Is this correct?

konsultant
07-04-2008, 08:38 PM
Sorry for the delay but my time seems to be running short these days. This is the list that I ran in the Mox Pearl event in Hadley Mass this past Saturday.

MD:
4 STP
4 Wrath of God
3 Decree of Justice
2 Eternal Dragon

3 Engineered Explosive's

3 Krosan Grip [I swear Hadley is the home of Dreadstill and Counterbalance Thresh, so yes I ran these MD as a meta game call but with some careful Brainstorm planning they never ended up being dead and I plan on leaving them in the MD]

4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
2 Fact or Fiction

3 Plains
2 Island
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strands
2 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland

SB
3 Humility
4 Runed Halo
4 Meddling Mage
2 Ajani Goldmane
2 Crucible of Worlds

Some points of interest in the list:

1) This is the original list that I had an incredible amount of success with back in 2005 with very few change's.
-3 Akroma's Vengeance
-3 Disenchant
-4 Farie Conclave
+3 Engineered Explosive's [weeker than Vengeance but much faster and needed to fight Empty the Warrens tokens]
+3 Krosan Grip [Far better than Disenchant in almost every single way, the extra Mana has yet to become relevent and Split Second has been amazing]
+2 Tropical Island
+1 Savannah
+1 Plains [ The only thing lost by dropping the Farie's was the tech against Choke and minus a win condition, the extra basic Plains has been great and the 3rd color is needed for Explosive's anyway]

My unfortunate folley of the day was cutting Tormod's Crypt from the SB right before the event in favor of adding Mage's. Last month Bryant Cook went x-o through the entire event with his TES deck and I knew that he would be there and I expected some net decked copies, so I dropped the yard hate in favor of a Ridiculous amount of Storm hate. So anyway.....


Round 1 vs White Thresh [the one girl in the room] lose 0-2
So let me start by saying that I have am cursed when I play against women, I seriously am like 1-7 against them in my ten years of Tournament Magic playing and it appears this past Saturday wasn't going to be an exception. Game one we more or less traded cards for about 15 turns, Krosan Grip wrecked here Counterbalance's and Spellsnare's kept Standstill's out of play. We both have no cards in hand after I wrath away her team and say go, she draw's a Goyf and proceeds to put a 6/7 creature in play. I am at 18 and I draw Standstill, she attacks me down to 12 and plays a land. I draw Brainstorm and proceed to cast it drawing 2x more Standstills and a Wasteland. Game 2 I mull a no land hand into 1x Mishra's Factory, 1x Plains, 2x Wrath of God, 1x Force of Will, 1x Counterspell. I keep, happy with my 6 cards and proceed to die 12 turns later never having drawn the 3rd land. I proceed to shuffle, alot.

Round 2 vs TES win 2-0
He go's for the unprotected Infernal Tutor cracking Led's attempt to kill you turn one unless you drew Force... whitch I did draw and he scoops game one before I ever get a turn. I guess he didn't know what I was playing but he seemed fairly new with the deck. I board in my excessive hate and take an easy win game 2 with Mage's and Factories.

Round 3 vs White Stax win 2-0
Wow was Krosan Grip my hero in this match, counter the geddon's and keep the relevent cards out of play, win both game's with a couple of Angel's, Stupid Ghostly Prison's make Soldier's suck.

Round 4 vs Black Thresh win 2-1
I don't know what he is playing but I opened a shaky hand game with only 1 land and decide to keep. I promptly find out he is playing the Mana denial strategy of Stifle, Waste, Daze and Spellsnare. He takes game one and I didn't see Counterbalance so I board out 3 Grip for the 3 Humility. Just as I had hoped he didn't see it coming and I own house game 2 by sticking Humility while the Grips sit in his SB. He make's some SB change's before game 3 so I decide to take out 2 Counterspells in favor of 2 Ajani. Between Thoughtsieze and Spellsnare they have been rendered useless the last 2 games and we are low on time so I want the extra win condition. My hand made up for round 1, I plow a turn 2 Goyf, Wrath off 2 more turn 5, Stick Humility turn 6 followed by Ajani turn 7. He drops a deed with 4 lands out capable of taking out Humility the next turn so I drop Eternal Dragon and start putting counter's on it. He ended up dying to a 1/1 Dragon under Humility with 6 +1+1 counters on it.

Round 5 vs Zach Fucking Tartell and his Ichorid deck lose 0-2
To those not familiar I am from the same town as Zach and we had both driven 300+ miles to get to this event. So those Crypts would have been relevent for the first time in 8 months. I put up a fight both game's but I wasnt able to draw decree when I needed to inorder to deal with the Ichorids and I succumb to reacurring Ichorids both games. To be fair he did draw 7 of his 10 lands game 2 and was actually casting Ichorids against me. That deck is retarded when it has the mana to cast everything.

Round 6 vs Moon Thresh win 2-0
He must have known what I was running because he kept a shitty hand with Bloodmoon and double Force back up, His strategy turned out to be terrible when my only response to Bloodmoon was "I float 1 Green Mana, It resolve's" I proceed to take a ridiculous amount of card advantage over him and we go to game 2. I leave the Grip's in because he is running Counterbalance and Bloodmoon even though I don't have a basic Forest, I have done zero testing against this deck but the strategy seemed to hold true and I took an easy win game 2.

So I end the day at a respectable 4-2 out of 49 people, I say respectable becuase the swiss format frustrate's me with it's system of draw's and I don't believe any of the top 8 actually won more than 4 rounds but due to tiebreakers and such I ended up in 13th. To those that don't know I am that jerk that won't just draw in and will actually make you play it out regardless of the risk it poses to my making top 8. That and I lose a ton of ratings points by drawing and who knows they might be worth something one day.

So the the list held true for me all day just as it has been in my local area these past few weeks, the SB needs to be more centralized and abit less of a meta game call. I'm finding the generic, redundent removal of old Landstill with some small upgrade's in the MD and SB to be far more effective than the Tutoring capabilities of the Wish version. My SB before adding the Mage's was 3 Crypts and 1 Enlightened Tutor. I honestly think that if I had been running that SB I could easily have dealt with Ichorid and been able to make top 8. Sorry if the deck doesn't appear to be "new and innovative", it started that way and has been "tweaked" down to this. I do have a couple smaller changes in mind after having the opportunity to run this in a large event. The version I was running last month utilized Academy Ruins and Pithing Needle with all sorts of stupid techy ideas but I hadn't tested the entire format of Legacy with that deck completly and I was having trouble against decks that should be easy wins. So now i'm back to a much more straight forward Idea and have been having a good amount of success with it.

Citrus-God
07-04-2008, 09:26 PM
That is fine list. What made you run Ajani Goldmane in the sideboard? I havent tested it yet, but I would like an explanation before I playtest it. Maybe Garruk instead?

Has running 18 blue cards ever bothered you compared to the Cunning Wish lists which sported 20-21 blue cards? Do you see yourself adding in more blue cards for the maindeck like a 3rd Fact or Fiction? Will you ever consider adding black in again just for Duress and/or Extirpate?

3duece
07-04-2008, 11:17 PM
What do you guys think of the build I'm putting together?

4Counterspell
4Force of Will

4Brainstorm
4Standstill
2Fact or Fiction

4Wrath of God
4Swords to Plowshares
2Decree of Justice
1Eternal Dragon

4Engineered Explosives
2Crucible of Worlds

4Tundra
2Underground Sea
1Scrubland
4Flooded Strand
2Polluted Mire
4Mishra's Factory
1Tolaria West
1Academy Ruins
1Wasteland
3Island
2Plains

I like the consistency that seems to come with UW with black splash for explosives and sideboard. Keeping with the colors does anyone have any suggestions? I'm also not sure on sideboard if someone could help. Obvious candidates are Extirpate, Engineered Plague, Meddling Mage. But I'm not sure on the rest.

Citrus-God
07-04-2008, 11:44 PM
The build seems very standard. As for the sideboard, I'll suggest what I think your board should look like.

Definitely, it needs Humility. I would say a couple copies at least. With the Black splash, I would say run Extirpates. Of course, you can run Yixlid Jailers alongside Extirpates for your trouble match-ups like Ichorid. Runed Halo is absolutely amazing as well. It's a good maindeck card, but it's also an amazing post-board card because you're siding different cards out to side Halos in. Remember how Truffle Shuffle would run a playset of Witness in the board, but different cards get sided out for Witness? Think of Haloes as a playset of Witnesses designed for this deck.

Other options for this deck include Ajani Goldmane or Pulse of the Fields. Hydroblasts would be nice, since it fights Goblins and Dragon Stompy, and helps keep Blood Moon effects off the table. Duress is alright against Control and Combo, but if it doesnt feel that effective, go ahead and run Meddling Mages. If I wasnt running Cunning Wish, my board would probably be this if I were playing your maindeck;

1 Decree of Justice
2 Humility
2 Pulse of the Fields/Ajani Goldmane
3 Meddling Mage/Dismantling Blow*
3 Extirpate
4 Runed Halo

Play Dismantling Blow in a Dragon Stompy heavy meta.

The Rack
07-05-2008, 02:42 AM
Well, for the first time in a tournament I played Landstill. Reason being is that there was a special tournament for FOurth of July so if you played a RWU then you get more prizes. So I decided I would play RWU Landstill.

Here was my list:

lands//26
1 academy ruins
4 mishra's factory
3 wasteland
1 tolaria west
4 tundra
4 volcanic island
4 flooded strand
2 island
3 faerie conclave


spells//34
2 stifle
4 force of will
4 counterspell
4 standstill
3 nevynrall's disk
3 fact or fiction
3 swords to plowshares
3 fire/ice
3 lightning bolt
1 engineered explosives
2 humility
2 crucible or worlds


The sideboard is:
2 stifle
2 red elemental blast
2 disenchant
2 blue elemental blast
2 pithing needle
2 pyroclasm
3 tormod's crypt

My matches:

Round 1: RWU Aggro Control
Game 1: So I figure he's playing Landstill like me because the Red white and blue thing going on, but he suspends the shade of trokair. Intrigued I play down land go. A few turns later he removes the last suspend counter I stifle it, cheers are heard throughout. He gets Augur of Skulls with 2 Steel of the Godhead on it. I topdeck a Humilty, then swords the dude, then beat down with manlands.
Game 2: First turn Wasteland against him wrecks him for awhile, he was pretty pissed. Then I played a Standstill and later on had a Humility get through FTW.
2-0

1-0

Round 2: Monoblack Pox
Game 1: I got raped, my hand, then my land, then my life total. I couldn't pull through against First turn Hymn, The Rack, that was rough
Game 2: SO this is a pretty tough matchup I realize as I've never even played against Pox in a tournament before. I get HUmility out when I'm at 5 and he has a Nether Spirit. Then I disk the world and beat and burn.
Game 3: I'm stressed because I know that I got lucky last game. He duress' me and sees 4 land, Force, Stifle, StP. He takes the force. He doesnt see his second land for so long that I've played 3 Standstill and 2 FoF. He gets his fetchland which I stifle and I beat in ftw.
2-1

2-0

Round 3: BWG Infimoval
Game 1: I know exactly what he's playing because he's on my team so I know what to do. I get Standstill into another Standstill then into another so I was doing alright on CA. I had too much counter for his removal and Burn helped out against confidant too.
Game 2: He makes a misplay later on in the game when he has 3 mana I have a crucible, he plays deed, and I wastelock him. He forgot about the waste or else he would have putrified my crucible and that would have been over for me.
2-0

3-0

Round 4: Funkbrew
Game 1: I know every card in the deck because I let my other teammate Sam borrow it. I also knew how to kill it with Landstill. I wasted his land. Next turn, topdecked a wasteland, wasted his land. Next turn topdeck Wasteland, waste his land. Tat was game because I had 3 more lands in hand with a Crucible.
Game 2: He mulls down to 5 and keeps a 1 lander. I get Standstill out. Then he breaks it. I draw into a waste and stalls enough to win me the game. It was sad that I had to beat my own deck though.
2-0

4-0

So I get 1st with the rest of the top 4 all Team Funk members. I got $40 store credit so I'm happy about that. Landstill is pretty awesome I guess :p. This is thefreakaccident's list except +2 Humility -2 Teferi's Response. It was a good tournament with some good friends!

Citrus-God
07-05-2008, 06:47 AM
Landstill (UWr) RayD3

Draw
4 Standstill
4 Fact or Fiction

Control
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Mana Leak
2 Crucible of Worlds
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Fire/Ice
3 Nevinyrral’s Disk
2 Wrath of God

Mana
1 Eternal Dragon

4 Mishra’s Factory
3 Faerie Conclave
4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
4 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Plains

SB
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Exalted Angel
3 Disenchant
2 Decree of Justice

As for the philosophy on the Brainstormless lists...



Anyway, one of the major problems in this argument is that I don't rate Brainstorm nearly as high as you do. I do not believe burn would play Brainstorm if it were Red. Read The Philosophy of Fire by Mike Flores as to my reasoning there. Yes, Brainstorm is very powerful in decks that have many variable effects that have to be juggled (something like Full English Breakfast, for example), or combo decks like Bomberman that are looking for a specific set of cards, or a deck like Threshold that needs a steady stream of threats and doesn't have the manabase to play stuff like FoF with any consistency. However, Brainstorm is not as strong in a deck like Landstill, for example, where many of its cards do the same thing. Is it poor? Of course not! But it's not so ridiculously broken that it's untouchable. That's basically my argument. Brainstorm is not bad in MUC, quite the opposite as Doks build demonstrates, but it isn't amazing either. You should play the best options available, not just options that are decent.



It seems these two think alike. Also, I wouldn't dare say that the list above is outdated. I would like a discussion on whether Fact or Fiction deserves more credit or not. Also, do all the cards in Landstill do the same thing? Do we run cards like Brainstorm so that we can get away with running narrower cards like Krosan Grip and Decree of Justice? If we were to replace those Grips with a card like Cunning Wish, would the validity of running a full set of Fact or Fictions be optimal?

Fact or Fictions, in a playset, is a beast like no other. While testing Fact or Fictions, I ran into some problems, but I also ran into many beneficial situations in which a resolved Fact or Fiction would give me leverage, information, and control of the game state. However, there are also many situations where I would much rather have Brainstorm.

Here's the list I used...


// Mana 25
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins
1 Tolaria West
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
2 Plains
2 Island

2 Eternal Dragon


// Spells 36
4 Standstill
4 Fact or Fiction
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Mana Leak
3 Cunning Wish
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Wrath of God
2 Humility
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Decree of Justice


// Sideboard 15
1 Pact of Negation
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Pulse of the Fields
2 Story Circle
3 Krosan Grip
3 Extirpate
4 Runed Halo


For the maindeck, a lot of cards such as EE and Cunning Wish has replaced Fire // Ice, obviously. In the old FoF builds, they ran less board sweepers than other Landstill lists because they only need to cast 1-2 board sweepers throughout the entire game. The game plan with the FoF builds should be simple;

1. Cast board sweeper
2. 1-for-1 the opponent into oblivion.
3. EOT Fact or Fiction for card advantage.

Always choose the win-small 1-for-1 potential cards as they have more value in conjunction with one another when dealing with FoF piles, because the 1-for-1 piles is all you need at that moment. Don't go for a board sweeper unless you're in dire need to. If you do, plan ahead so you can continue steps 1 and 2. Because of this great plan, you can always refill your hand using Standstills because the board will always be clean and your position will always be a positive at best. While playing the builds with Brainstorm, I always saw myself in situations in which I have to cycle DoJ just to block a stupid Goyf. With the 4 FoF version, I never saw myself cycling DoJ just to block; I always cycled DoJ to kill the opponent.


Fact or Fiction-based builds:

- The opening hands are less perfect compared to the ones with Brainstorm. If you have an opening hand with like an FoF, Swords to Plowshares and 5 lands, it is an instant mull. Had that FoF been a Brainstorm, it would've been an amazing hand. However, I kept hand lacking much leverage but holding tons of removal and counters to be amazing hands, like 3 Lands, Swords, EE, Mana Leak, WoG. If you use your control elements to stall until you topdeck a Fact or Fiction or a Standstill, you will more than likely chain into more draw and control elements which eventually dig into your win condition (DoJ).

- Topdecking into a Fact or Fiction midgame is amazing. It keeps you in the game, and allows you to keep playing until your opponent is under exhaust.

- It allows you to outplay your opponents better. When I cast FoF, I cast them in weird phases of the game to ensure that when my opponent splits his FoF, it gives me the following information if it resolves;

1. My opponent's view on the game state and what cards he values most.
2. What the potential cards my opponent may have in hand and his intentions.
3. What he thinks I have in my hand and what he thinks he has to play around/into.

And when playing FoF, you can play it at anytime and it it'll be split different compared to when it's cast. For example, let's say you play it in response to a Goyf. Compared to that and EOT, if you had revealed a Counter, it would've been split much differently. Depending on how he splits, it should give you a slight idea to what he has in hand and how much that opponent values his Goyf. For example, if you had a pile of Force of Will, Fact or Fiction, Cunning Wish, Standstill, Decree of Justice revealed off an FoF in response to Goyf while you hold a Swords, Mana Leak, and WoG in hand and have 5 lands in play and the opponent has 3 lands open, he might split it into a Force of Will, Cunning Wish/Standstill, Fact or Fiction, Decree. Compared to you if you had casted it eot, it might've been Force of Will, Cunning Wish, DoJ / FoF, Standstill or Standstill, DoJ, Cunning Wish / Force of Will, Fact or Fiction and such. Had you do it in response, you might get 2 draw spells if the opponent is inexperienced and made a mistake by overvaluing his Goyf. You can do this in response to cards like Matron, Counterbalance, and such. As long as it makes sense for you to respond with FoF, so that if a counter gets peeled off, the dynamics for the FoF piles change. Also, you might want to counter that card on the stack, so this should become common practice. If your opponent's get clever and start to try and thinking at a deeper level, then you re-adjust and contemplate on what kind of piles you want off your Fact or Fiction and plan on when you should play that FoF so you get that desired FoF pile. This is probably the reason why most players dislike FoF, but that also shouldn't give you the right to be lazy when casting it and choosing a pile.

You can also play it on your main phase which will also get different reactions on FoF piles compared to what you would've gotten EOT. You could play it on your main phase to bluff that you need a crucial board sweeper or you could do this for card advantage with some added quality.

- Although Landstill is a late game deck, I've been seeing lists running less draw which makes for a weaker late game. Even though many believe that once Landstill reaches late game, it should win. I disagree. Against strong players, Landstill might lose some leverage against those strong players because of good planning on the good player's part. You use FoF and the massive amounts of lands you have in play to maintain your stance, keep the opponent from coming back, and to play mind games. Remember, Magic is an extremely volatile game in which anything can happen. If you play your FoFs right, you can do the impossible by forcing your opponent into splitting the piles badly and allowing you to stop your opponent from winning and maintain slightly (or a lot) of control of the game state.

- In a metagame lacking Ichorid and Combo, I believe that running a BS-less build can be right. Brainstorm balances your hand and gets you cards like Counters to fight things that may become a threat such as Orim's Chant and/or LED early game. Had you play the FoF version, decks like TES would be an auto-lose Game 1. Against decks like Ichorid, you need to protect your hand from discard and find crucial cards for certain phases of the game like Extirpate, Runed Halo, and EE.

Fact or Fiction, however, isn't like Brainstorm early game. Fact or Fiction being ran in a deck like this puts into consideration that all the cards in my deck perform the function of either

1. Producing mana.
2. Winning attrition wars.
3. Draw cards.
4. Is a win condition that has a secondary function.


So FoF only works against decks like NQG, Vial Goblins, and control mirrors. Now you may be asking me why I still believe that Fact or Fiction is good against already good match-ups. My answer to that is that Fact or Fiction is much stronger post-board against these decks. When 5 cards get peeled off of Fact or Fiction, the opponent will lack the post-board experience to properly split the Fact or Fiction piles because of the dynamic that you boarded in hate. Okay, Runed Halo, Story Circle, Krosan Grips, and Extirpates are thrown in the mix. Great, so you want to give me leverage or you want me to throw enough enchantments out into play that you run out of Grips to answer to individually answer all my enchantments in play.

- Fact or Fiction trims bad topdecks like lands and such and ensures that you can dig for the next Fact or Fiction and/or Standstill as well as other various outs (if that out you needed was revealed by your FoF, then put it into account).

- Fact or Fiction is amazing in the Landstill mirror.

- It can get around Counterbalance and allows you to dig for Cunning Wish and/or Engineered Explosives to answer it.


Anyways, I'm curious by what you guys think of this theory. I think it holds very well, but only in a known metagame full of Aggro and Control. Combo should be the only reason to run Brainstorms. As for unknown metagames, I believe that you should run Brainstorms because of the said hand balance of many needed cards for a specific timing.

FlavaSava
07-05-2008, 09:10 AM
@Anti-Ami Why aren´t there any Deeds?

The Rack
07-05-2008, 02:13 PM
@Anti: I am an advocate of Fact or Fiction over Brainstorm because in the red list you have burn for their turn 2 Goyf, confidant, mage, teeg, instead of Brainstorming. I much prefer FoF purely because of the insane CA it gives you. When I would play it my opponents would say "Fuck You!!!" because they knew that a resolved FoF buys Landstill quite a few more answers. During a few matches I was actually worried about drawing too many cards because between FoF and Standstill my hand had 10 cards in it before I entered the discard step, and I still had another Standstill and FoF in hand. It was incredible how in control I was just because of a resolved FoF.

Mister Agent
07-05-2008, 02:27 PM
@Anti-Ami Why aren´t there any Deeds?

Pernicious Deeds aren't necassary in UW(x) landstill considering wrath of god, engineered explosives, and humility provides the same roles as board sweepers. As well as applying the use of wraths and humility can help you avoid general disruption in the form of pithing needle, stifle, and etcetera.

Cunning wish for return to dust/krosan grip depending on the landstill splash can also replace the other functional characteristic of deed.

I can see why Ray D3 and Kadaj find brainstorm less than stellar in landstill. Considering brainstorm doesn't provide that hard card draw when compared to standstill and fact or fiction. However, brainstorm is quite awesome in white splash landstill because of the shuffling effects that E. dragon and fetchlands bring to the sub-archetype. But you don't need to run E. dragon in all landstill decks to make brainstorm effective especially with the number of blue fetches available.

Kadaj
07-05-2008, 02:50 PM
I see no reason why you can't run both Fact and Brainstorm in UWx Landstill. I don't think Brainstorm is quite as strong here as it is in say, Fetchland Tendrils or Threshold, but that doesn't make it a weak card. Far from it, but I don't have a lot of experience building my own Landstill lists so it's hard to say how I would actually work both FoF and Brainstorm in. Especially since as Anti-American pointed out, Fact is a hell of a lot stronger as a full set.

Just looking at Ray D3's list I would consider removing the Nevinyrral's Disk due to it's serious lack of speed, 1 Fire/Ice because it's not exactly an outrageous powerhouse, replacing them with Brainstorm, and switching the Faerie Conclaves for Fetchlands. That may or may not be a foolish idea, I don't know. I haven't really looked too far into that sort of thing, but that's just my thoughts on the matter.

Citrus-God
07-05-2008, 05:01 PM
I see no reason why you can't run both Fact and Brainstorm in UWx Landstill. I don't think Brainstorm is quite as strong here as it is in say, Fetchland Tendrils or Threshold, but that doesn't make it a weak card. Far from it, but I don't have a lot of experience building my own Landstill lists so it's hard to say how I would actually work both FoF and Brainstorm in. Especially since as Anti-American pointed out, Fact is a hell of a lot stronger as a full set.

Lack of room, exactly. 2 Fact or Fictions was stellar in testing and I always found myself playing a Wish for my 3rd copy from the board. Needless to say, it was expensive and stupid. I also found that piles are usually split differently if you had a counter instead of a Brainstorm. If you flip over a Brainstorm, the Brainstorm usually ends up in a pile of 2. If it were a counter, you might see it part of the pile of 3 much more often (assuming you didnt play FoF in response to something), hence, the pile of 3 is much more profitable in the long run. But this is from my own experience and from the fact I played against the same player for the playtest session. I could've recognized his splitting patterns and played FoF creatively to re-adjust to his usual splitting. I need some more testing on FoF.

konsultant
07-06-2008, 06:40 PM
That is fine list. What made you run Ajani Goldmane in the sideboard? I havent tested it yet, but I would like an explanation before I playtest it. Maybe Garruk instead?

Has running 18 blue cards ever bothered you compared to the Cunning Wish lists which sported 20-21 blue cards? Do you see yourself adding in more blue cards for the maindeck like a 3rd Fact or Fiction? Will you ever consider adding black in again just for Duress and/or Extirpate?

Ajani provide's a powerful win condition just the same as Garruk does but it is also relavent if you are to run into burn, a match that I always have a streategy for. Not to mention my Mana base can support Ajani far better than it can Garruk. The second ability on Ajani is usually the most powerful, until you have played Ajani with Decree and Factories it's hard to explain just how explosive your win condition can become. Ajani is also an alternate win condition for decks like aggro loan. Just yesterday I played against it and dropped turn 4 Ajani and swung with a 23/23 token a couple turns later.

I have never had problems running 18 Blue cards, actually 16 is my minimum but the Mage's go in against anything where you need fast countering capabilities whitch up the count by 3.

I don't believe you can run 4 color's and not have mana issue's unless you cut Wasteland, personally I think Wasteland is a better tool than anything I gain from adding Black into the deck so I would say no, it's either a Green splash or Black for me, not both.

Has anyone considered Fracturing Gust as a Wish target? I often wanted to wish for Vengeance or Purify when I was playing wish and now it seems you can do just that.

I understand the desire to play more FoF's, why not just go to 3 FoF and 3 Brainstorm?

raharu
07-06-2008, 11:55 PM
Ajani provide's a powerful win condition just the same as Garruk does but it is also relavent if you are to run into burn, a match that I always have a streategy for. Not to mention my Mana base can support Ajani far better than it can Garruk. The second ability on Ajani is usually the most powerful, until you have played Ajani with Decree and Factories it's hard to explain just how explosive your win condition can become. Ajani is also an alternate win condition for decks like aggro loan. Just yesterday I played against it and dropped turn 4 Ajani and swung with a 23/23 token a couple turns later.

I have never had problems running 18 Blue cards, actually 16 is my minimum but the Mage's go in against anything where you need fast countering capabilities whitch up the count by 3.

I don't believe you can run 4 color's and not have mana issue's unless you cut Wasteland, personally I think Wasteland is a better tool than anything I gain from adding Black into the deck so I would say no, it's either a Green splash or Black for me, not both.

Has anyone considered Fracturing Gust as a Wish target? I often wanted to wish for Vengeance or Purify when I was playing wish and now it seems you can do just that.

I understand the desire to play more FoF's, why not just go to 3 FoF and 3 Brainstorm?
I'm thinking of running Ajani now, though in another U based control deck. Thank you for the concept.

Fracturing Gust seems fairly (read: really stupidly but I don't want to come off as either a fanboy or a moron) strong, although the manacost could prove prohibitive and it raisses the question (for me) of why you wouldn't just run Akorma's Vengance instead, because it's a stronger effect in most circumstances and, while it costs one more, it's 4WW instead of what Gust's cost is (although in UWg that could be much more managable than I give the manabase credit for. I still doubt the ability for it to be useful against DStompy though).

thefreakaccident
07-07-2008, 01:01 AM
@ The Rack-


My list for that tourney (with humility MD) probably would have been:

-1 wasteland
-1 volcanic island
+1 fetch
+1 plains


As the white was heavier than the red, and you had a spell with dub white, which isn't rediculous to get or anything, just hard if you do not have crucible out...

Good Job Jake!!

I think the Uwr lists still are strong enough to compete, they just need a little more help when facing decks like ichorid or quick combo is all...

Plus side is they have a good mirror MU (if response, better I may say).

Illissius
07-07-2008, 06:49 PM
Has anyone considered Fracturing Gust as a Wish target?

Yeah, back on the first page. It was shot down on account of the mana cost being difficult, but in a UWx list, especially UWg I think it should be manageable. It's annoying that it kills your Humilities and Halos, so you might want to play it in addition to rather than instead of the normal Disenchant effect.

Ranarion
07-08-2008, 07:45 AM
Last saturday I went 4-1-1 (6th) on a 61 player tournament in germany with this deck:
Maindeck
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
3 Plains
4 Island
1 Tolaria West
1 Academy Ruins
1 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Eternal Dragon
3 Decree of Justice
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Cunning Wish
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Wrath of God
2 Humility
3 Engineered Explosives

Sideboard
4 Meddling Mage
3 Runed Halo
3 Extirpate
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Return to Dust
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Blue Elemental Blast

Because it's a common list there should not be much to explain. I played only three Tundra because I wasn't able to get more but I don't think I would play four if I get them because three are really enough and seven basics are good against Blood Moon and Back to Basics.
I won against Dragon Stompy, UWB-Fish with Wasteland, Stifle and Extirpate (really annoying >_>), UWB Faeries and some kind of WW with green splash. I lost against UB-control. First game he surprised me with Haunting Echoes for nearly my whole deck and I played really bad, second game I had to fight against 4 Duress, 4 Thoughtseize, Extirpate, Haunting Echoes and Extirpate. That was too heavy for me. The draw was against NQG/r.
I am very satisfied with this deck because my only loss was against a deck nearly never played and the other MU's were good. But I am not sure if the Meddling Mages were the right choice. Combo isn't played much here and against other MU's I rarely want to side them in.
My meta is full of Fish and NQG, some Stax and Loam-Decks. There are only a few Belcher and Ichorid decks. I'm wondering if there would be a better sb-choice for my meta.

diffy
07-08-2008, 08:02 AM
Grats for the finish - feels good to see the deck do well outside of the hands of the players that usually pilot it to good finishes.



I played only three Tundra because I wasn't able to get more but I don't think I would play four if I get them because three are really enough and seven basics are good against Blood Moon and Back to Basics.


I also thought about making this change - good to know that it works out well, I'm not totally sure on how to transpose the 6-7 basics manabase into a 23 land (+2 Eternal Dragon) build though.



My meta is full of Fish and NQG, some Stax and Loam-Decks. There are only a few Belcher and Ichorid decks. I'm wondering if there would be a better sb-choice for my meta.

Stax and Loam are two very good reasons to keep Meddling Mage in your sideboard - against Stax naming Armageddon makes the matchup rather one-sided as Armageddon is one of their best ways to victory (especially since close to no-one has access to Ravages of War) and against Loam Meddling Mage shines too as it is another out to their namesake or to other nasty things such as Devastating Dreams.

My newest list for the archetype can be found here (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2559348&postcount=12) - you could maybe give it a spin next time.

3duece
07-08-2008, 12:00 PM
What are your opinions on removal for things such as counterbalance if you don't want to use cunning wish? I was thinking maybe one seal of cleansing or aura of silence with one enlightened tutor(which can also fetch standstill, crucible, humility and explosives. Is there a way to work this viably, maybe:
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Wasteland
1 Tolaria West
1 Academy Ruins
2 Island
2 Plains

3 Decree of Justice

4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
2 Fact or Fiction

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Wrath of God
2 Humility
1 Enlighted Tutor
1 Seal of Cleansing

1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Engineered Explosives

I know everyone says don't maindeck tutor, but I think it might actually fit here.

Illissius
07-08-2008, 12:32 PM
Explosives works fine enough, you can spend more mana of the same color to get around Counterbalance. Enlightened Tutor and Seal of Cleansing aren't great under one. If you really want to fuck Counterbalance no matter what, run maindeck Grips like konsultant's last list.

konsultant
07-08-2008, 12:33 PM
I'm thinking of running Ajani now, though in another U based control deck. Thank you for the concept.

Fracturing Gust seems fairly (read: really stupidly but I don't want to come off as either a fanboy or a moron) strong, although the manacost could prove prohibitive and it raisses the question (for me) of why you wouldn't just run Akorma's Vengance instead, because it's a stronger effect in most circumstances and, while it costs one more, it's 4WW instead of what Gust's cost is (although in UWg that could be much more managable than I give the manabase credit for. I still doubt the ability for it to be useful against DStompy though).

The reason for Fracturing Gust was because it's an instant and could fit as a one of in the wish board. It's a situational card, obviously it's not your normal target against Dragon Stompy if Bloodmoon is out and you don't have the 3 basic Plains in play. I run 2 Trop's in my build whitch would make the mana cost a touch easier to get. This would be more for things like White Stax, more of a weapon against the random decks you may encounter in the earlier rounds of a large event. Anything that incorparate's life gain into it's ability can be a very useful tool aswell.

diffy
07-08-2008, 12:51 PM
Fracturing Gust

The question really should be whether Fracturing Ghust is that much better than Return to Dust to merit a slot in the already rather tight sideboard - Return to Dust has an easier to obtain mana cost and still hell of a strong effect as even against Stax or Enchantress there are only rarely more than two relevant Artefacts/Enchantments on the board. Also, the fact that Return to Dust removes the cards from the game can be randomly useful too (e.g. against Modular or Academy Ruins).
As the consent seems to be that Fracturing Ghust can not really replace another Disenchant effect in the Wishboard, I'd say that it's too narrow and that it doesn't offer a significant enough plus in power if compared to Return to Dust to warrant a slot.


What are your opinions on removal for things such as counterbalance if you don't want to use cunning wish?

As already stated, Engineered Explosives is very good against Counterbalance - max out on these first. If you then still feel as though you don't have enough outs to it, I'd go with a single Nevinyrral's Disk in the place of one Wrath of God which is not only a good Enlightened Tutor target but which also offers a nice out to Blood Moon and all sorts of other randomness. The fact that it is a turn slower than Wrath hurts sometimes, but, if you plan a little ahead and if you know what you're doing, you should be able to work around this too.

dude 666
07-08-2008, 05:00 PM
I have a question about Meddling Mage. I know that he comes in against combo, but what other decks should he come in against (loam perhaps?), and what should he chant in those matchups (including storm combo)?

Also, what should successive mages name if i should draw more than one? Thanks.

klaus
07-09-2008, 04:28 AM
I have a question about Meddling Mage. I know that he comes in against combo, but what other decks should he come in against (loam perhaps?), and what should he chant in those matchups (including storm combo)?

Also, what should successive mages name if i should draw more than one? Thanks.

Regarding successive Magi, see the order of targets listed:

Ichorid: Dread Return (plus serves as bridge remoaval) - 2-3 are enough, though.

White Stax: Armageddon, Crucible, Smokestack

Hightide.dec: Hightide, Brainfreeze/Cunning Wish
Springtide: s.a.

Burn: Price of Progress - R. Halo is better here obv.

Mirrormatch: Depending on gamestate and build: ...

Aggro Loam: Don't board him.

43 Lands.dec: Life from the Loam, Burning Wish, Mulch (?)

TES: Tendrils, Empty the Warrens, Burning Wish

Belcher: (ETW) Belcher, Wish

Enchantress/Solitaire: Argothian Enchantress/ Enchantress' Presence, maybe Choke

There's is more but that's what came to mind right now.

diffy
07-09-2008, 05:03 AM
I have a question about Meddling Mage. I know that he comes in against combo, but what other decks should he come in against (loam perhaps?), and what should he chant in those matchups (including storm combo)?

Also, what should successive mages name if i should draw more than one? Thanks.

To complete on what klaus said:

Naming things with Meddling Mage is highly dependant on the game state so that the following are only rough guidelines. Knowing these and the matchup you're playing, you shouldn't really have any problems playing the Mage correctly though.

Ichorid:Cabal Therapy - this is one of their major token producers and their best chance at keeping you from winning (i.e. landing a Humility/Runed Halo/Extirpate). I'd always name it first especially since the Ichorid player will close to always board the Dread Return package out against you because he doesn't need to win fast.
Chain of Vapor (or Dread Return if they left it in) - one of their best outs at recovering after you've actually won (i.e. reached the lategame and landed some broken enchantments). Also, all the builds are running and boarding these so that you should never really waste the Meddling Mage.
White Stax:Armageddon Crucible of Worlds - assuming they don't have Ravages of War Smokestack
SolidarityHightide If you already Extirpated their Meditates: Cunning Wish, else name Meditate
Aggro Loam: I am currently boarding Meddling Mage against Aggro Loam (*) because he's an additional out to their main engine and to their best way of winning out of nowhere (Devastating Dreams). He can also act as pseudo-removal if you name one of their threats: they don't have that many so that loosing 4 is quite devastating to them sometimes. If there's no Extirpate in sight name Life from the Loam, else name Burning Wish. If you currently don't have a counter name Devastating Dreams Whatever you didn't name in 1. Start with their threats (Countryside Crusher, Terravore)
TES: Not really sure about this one but I don't think that naming the winconditions is the right move. Burning Wish Infernal Tutor
Mirrormatch: If they play a build with Pernicious Deed, always name it first.
MUC: Back to Basics Engineered Explosives Morphling
Meddling Mage also comes in against other random control that has a better lategame than you - if they play Deed name it first, else name their main engines (e.g. Intuition or the like). Naming winconditions is also not a bad move.


*: My board plan versus Aggro Loam:
-3 Wrath of God
-1 Standstill
-1 Counterspell
-2 Cunning Wish
-1 Engineered Explosives
-2 Fact or Fiction
-1 Eternal Dragon
+4 Meddling Mage
+3 Extirpate
+3 Runed Halo
+1 Blue Elemental Blast

TeKo
07-09-2008, 09:18 AM
Hi,
I play a Wish and Tutor Based UWb List, what do you think of "Declaration of Naught"?

It isn't nearly as good as M Mage, but you can Tutor for it and with some U it does nearly the same job.

The worst thing is that you can use it 1 Turn later then M Mage and obviously you need more U.

dude 666
07-09-2008, 08:29 PM
Thanks alot for the extremely thorough answer, Der_Imaginäre_Freund, it cleared alot of things up.

I'm still not sure about the TES matchup however, since there was disagreement between you and Klaus over what to name. Does the fact that I run 4 Stifle mainboard change what to name with the mage? Also, does the TES matchup differ greatly from the Fetchland Tendrils one? How should I play against TES and FT?

Sorry for all the questions, those are just the most intimidating matchups.

NQN
07-10-2008, 09:55 AM
If you play 4 Stifles I would probably name Orim´s Chant first and maybe Vexing Shusher next.

FlavaSava
07-11-2008, 05:29 AM
@dude
May you show your list? I'm interested in a list with stifle MB.

My not really new list:
// Deck file for Magic Workstation

// Lands
1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Plains
2 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Tolaria West
4 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Wasteland
1 Faerie Conclave

// Creatures
1 Eternal Dragon
1 Jace Beleren <- thats the point i'm not sure about should I play Jace or FoF

// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
3 Cunning Wish
2 Decree of Justice
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of Will
2 Humility
4 Standstill
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Wrath of God

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Fact or Fiction
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 3 Extirpate
SB: 1 Hydroblast
SB: 3 Meddling Mage
SB: 1 Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 Return to Dust
SB: 1 Slaughter Pact
SB: 3 Runed Halo


I want to play 3 Wishes, but i want also play 2 FoF or 1Jace/ 1 FoF, so i play a FoF in the Sb for a MM. So i have acess to 2 FoF or 1 Jace/1 FoF. What do you think about the list?
Sorry for my bad english

Mister Agent
07-11-2008, 06:56 PM
@dude
May you show your list? I'm interested in a list with stifle MB.

My not really new list:
// Deck file for Magic Workstation

// Lands
1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Plains
2 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Tolaria West
4 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Wasteland
1 Faerie Conclave

// Creatures
1 Eternal Dragon
1 Jace Beleren <- thats the point i'm not sure about should I play Jace or FoF

// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
3 Cunning Wish
2 Decree of Justice
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of Will
2 Humility
4 Standstill
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Wrath of God

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Fact or Fiction
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 3 Extirpate
SB: 1 Hydroblast
SB: 3 Meddling Mage
SB: 1 Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 Return to Dust
SB: 1 Slaughter Pact
SB: 3 Runed Halo


I want to play 3 Wishes, but i want also play , so i play a FoF in the Sb for a MM. So i have acess to 2 FoF or 1 Jace/1 FoF. What do you think about the list?
Sorry for my bad english

After extensive testing with Jace I never seem to like him in landstill. His draw-back outweighs his functional role for card draw. In other words, he draws minimal cards for his cost. While fact or fiction on the other hand can break stalemates and turn tables into your favor. Also FoF is instanteous and only has one :u: in it's cost which is a important notice.

As for the singleton faerie conclave, that slot seems weak considering you should be running another mishra's factory. Also another E. dragon will help you stabalize a foundational manabase early while applying consistent land drops. Which is needed in landstill and you won't have to over-extend as much especially against land hate.

dude 666
07-11-2008, 08:56 PM
Ok so this is my list; the 4 stifle mainboard i'm still unsure of, they're awesome at times, but at other times are not that awesome.

Lands:
4 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Island
2 Plains
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
1 Tolaria West

Creatures:
1 Eternal Dragon

Removal and whatnot:
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Humility
2 Wrath of God

Card Advantage/ Parity:
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
2 Cunning Wish
2 Crucible of Worlds


Counters:
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Stifle

Sideboard:
4 Meddling Mage
4 Extirpate
3 Engineered Plague or 3 Runed Halo (still undecided)
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Dismantling Blow

The slots that change up alot are the third Cunning Wish and the Fact or Fiction, they get interchanged for the Wraths periodically; I also found Decree to be very clunky, moreso than Fact or Fiction.

FlavaSava
07-12-2008, 06:13 AM
Running DoJ is very important, its the best Finisher in a LS-Deck. I don´t want to miss it.

undone
07-12-2008, 10:31 AM
1 Eternal Dragon
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
3 Cunning Wish
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Decree of Justice
3 Wrath of God
2 Humility
4 Standstill
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Engineered Explosives

1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
3 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Plains
1 Scrubland
1 Tolaria West
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Wasteland


SB
4 Extirpate
1 pulse of the fields
1 slaughter pact
1 hydroblast
1 Dismanteling blow
3 E plague
3 MMage
1 Stifle

This is the list I am using. The stifle in the board has many uses, including allowing deed to resolve when you have a humility/crucible out. Gives you a better chance in the solidardy matchup, and helps your TES/FT matchups.

Any Critiques for this. I was testing the 4C landstill/vorosh matchup and let me tell you in that matchup, you win most of the time because you have twice as many answers for goyf as they have goyf. Key cards include Counterspell/force for the counterspell/force on crucible. Standstill is actualy extremaly aquard in this MU... The biggest win seemed to be humility.

Also tested a little against a proxied lands deck. It seems like plague naming X where X is the best manland that they have helps alot because of humility. Extirpate on Loam and the C spelled burning wish is huge here.

i_need_the_extra_turns
07-12-2008, 12:46 PM
@undone

That's the standard list (mainboard), I guess. Nothing more to add to the mainboard. Some people changed the CoW for 2 Fact or Fiction, I would test this.
What I miss in the Sideboard is the enlightened tutor (EOT: C.wish->enlight. Tutor-> Humility) and three plagues seem a lot, I would prefer more BEB, but maybe its a meta game choice. And I don't see the meaning of "naming manlands vs land.dec". A 3/3 trample treetop village would be 2/2 trample under humility, isnt it?
Land.dec is really the thoughest matchup for landstill. Preboard u can only win with crucible and Cunning wish (for extirpate) on your starting hand. In my meta game there is also a land.dec. The guy plays 4 wasteland, 4 ghost quarter, 3-4 ports. and burning wish. After the boarding, u have to extirpate burning wish and loam, then u have a chance (watch out for devasting dreams).

greetz

Serbitar
07-12-2008, 04:07 PM
"It seems like plague naming X where X is the best manland that they have helps alot because of humility. Extirpate on Loam and the C spelled burning wish is huge here."

Humility doesnt make manlands 1/1 (unless they are activated when Humilty comes into play, and even then they'll only be 1/1 until EOT). So naming 'Ape' will make Treetop Village 2/2 under Humility and 'Monk' (?) will make Nantuko Monastery 3/3.
Incidentily, this is what makes Humility such a great card in Landstill, since it leaves you playing with 2/2 creatures (Factory) while everyone else is stuck with 1/1s.

undone
07-12-2008, 10:30 PM
"It seems like plague naming X where X is the best manland that they have helps alot because of humility. Extirpate on Loam and the C spelled burning wish is huge here."

Humility doesnt make manlands 1/1 (unless they sre activated when Humilty comes into play, and even then they'll only be 1/1 until EOT). So naming 'Ape' will make Treetop Village 2/2 under Humility and 'Monk' (?) will make Nantuko Monastery 3/3.

Really? Some one told me this as well but then I asked a couple of judges and they told me

"Humility is static, Every creature is a 1/1, always. The reason being that, you make your land a man. Now you check statebased effects. The manland is a 1/1 with no ablitys due to state based effects."

I might be wrong but this sounds correct I understand the layers but it isnt an issue, It only seems to be an issue if your using anthem effects.

At most i would cut 1 EPlague for 1 E tutor. in the board. I really love the singleton stifle, and was considering adding a singleton forbid.

diffy
07-13-2008, 06:00 AM
"Humility is static, Every creature is a 1/1, always. The reason being that, you make your land a man. Now you check statebased effects. The manland is a 1/1 with no ablitys due to state based effects."


For Humility related questions check this (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3649) thread and especially this (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=74716&postcount=3) post.


Hi,
I play a Wish and Tutor Based UWb List, what do you think of "Declaration of Naught"?

The biggest problem with Declaration of Naught is that it's only a replacement for Meddling Mage in the combo or recursion matchups: the body of Meddling Mage is a prime reason to take him in for the control mirrors.
Also, playing a sub-optimal card only because you can tutor for it isn't exactly what I call optimization: you only play 2 Cunning Wishes and therefore you have a rather small chance of seeing one by turn3 meaning that the Enlightened Tutor plan for Declaration of Naught is always slower than directly playing Meddling Mage.
I'd say it's a no-go.


I'm surprised that you dislike Crucible, Clemens (especially considering the presence of Stax and Loam in das alte Deutschland). Personally, I still find it key, particularly for the control matchup, since there is a noticeable power jump between having 4-5 lands in play and having 8-9 of them. Much like in Stax, it does little on its own, but it "enables" most of your deck: Decree and Eternal Dragon now become serious threats much earlier, and a single Mishra's Factory can force your opponent to play two creatures into a Wrath.

These are all valid points - Crucible of Worlds still is a strong tool for the late midgame and after.
The reason I cut CoW was simply that it didn't influence the board state directly: you played it and it was like ":3:: do nothing" at first and would only show an effect later meaning that it was only good on a neutral or better board - it didn't handle things. Also the mana stability aspect wasn't really all that important after reaching 3 mana (from where it's no distance to the lategame) and was further made redundant by the fact that with more basics most recursive and non-recursive manadenial doesn't really hurt you as much as in earlier versions meaning that you can mostly rely on the lands you draw: if you have less targets for Wasteland and co. you have much less need for something to fight them.
Also, the addition of the second Eternal Dragon also somewhat compensates the loss of the singleton Crucible in the control matchups as Eternal Dragon can also function as pseudo-Crucible guaranteeing your land drops for some turns.

konsultant
07-13-2008, 06:23 PM
To complete on what klaus said:

Naming things with Meddling Mage is highly dependant on the game state so that the following are only rough guidelines. Knowing these and the matchup you're playing, you shouldn't really have any problems playing the Mage correctly though.

TES: Not really sure about this one but I don't think that naming the winconditions is the right move. Burning Wish Infernal Tutor


I'm gonna just clear this up for everyone's sake, always name Tendril's. If you are lucky and they aren't playing/ drew a REB this is pretty much game. The resource's need to Wish for Clasm to kill him will buy you a number of turns. I play against Bryant Cook the decks creator just about every single week. My playing him every week is part of the reason I incorparated Halo into my deck strategy. Halo obviously come's dowm on Tendril's first as well. If you hit the second Mage its a toss up of naming Burning Wish or dropping a second one on Tendril's. The second one on Tendril's might seem foolish but if they are running REB it's the better call. Bryant has been playing against me playing Landstill for several years now and his list pack's as much hate for Lanstill as he can cram in there and he posts his list in the forum regularly.

Nihil Credo
07-13-2008, 07:39 PM
The reason I cut CoW was simply that it didn't influence the board state directly: you played it and it was like ":3:: do nothing" at first and would only show an effect later meaning that it was only good on a neutral or better board - it didn't handle things. Also the mana stability aspect wasn't really all that important after reaching 3 mana (from where it's no distance to the lategame) and was further made redundant by the fact that with more basics most recursive and non-recursive manadenial doesn't really hurt you as much as in earlier versions meaning that you can mostly rely on the lands you draw: if you have less targets for Wasteland and co. you have much less need for something to fight them.
Also, the addition of the second Eternal Dragon also somewhat compensates the loss of the singleton Crucible in the control matchups as Eternal Dragon can also function as pseudo-Crucible guaranteeing your land drops for some turns.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this: I see your points and they're valid (other than "from 3 mana the lategame is near", which I think is just false), but in my opinion the few percentage points that you're giving up by cutting Chalices against common matchups are worth the way it's a Get Out Of Jail Free card* against dedicated mana denial - which is, with the exception of Stax, one of the most difficult matchups for this deck.

* Mmm, how would you say that in German? Gefängnisefreieausfahrtkarte?


I'm gonna just clear this up for everyone's sake, always name Tendrils. I play against Bryant Cook the decks creator just about every single week. My playing him every week is part of the reason I incorparated Halo into my deck strategy. Halo obviously come's dowm on Tendril's first as well.
Seconded. Incidentally, if you have to pick between turn 2 Halo and Mage, go with Halo since it's harder to remove (REB-immune, Wish targets more expensive).


If you hit the second Mage its a toss up of naming Burning Wish or dropping a second one on Tendril's. The second one on Tendril's might seem foolish but if they are running REB it's the better call.I'd say that the discriminating factor here is whether you have an Empty the Warrens answer in hand or not. If yes, name Tendrils again; if not, name Burning Wish. Sure they don't want to use Goblin tokens against Landstill, but it may be their only shot.



Also, while we're at it, Fetchland Tendrils. Each player has its own list of bullets, but in general naming Tendrils with every Mage/Halo you draw is the safest play: they run split second answers, so you can't rely 100% on a single copy. Some lists can kill you with a Doomsday stack using Brain Freeze, but it's not worth naming that win condition (which besides gets owned by Academy Ruins). Also, if they run Street Wraith, they almost definitely don't have Brain Freeze so name Tendrils without even thinking about it.

It's worth noting that Extirpate is absolutely golden in this matchup: so much of their engine is built around abusing the top of their library that a well-timed shuffle effect is often an Orim's Chant.

Sideboarding against FT:
-4 Swords to Plowshares
-3 Wrath
-2 Humility
+4 Meddling Mage
+3 Runed Halo
+2 Extirpate
If playing Street Wraith: -1 Crucible, +1 BEB (just for Force-pitching purposes)

You want to keep Cunning Wish in, since a) they are slow enough that it can be used to good effect; b) they love Extirpating your counterspells if they can (sometime they'll play a turn 2 Chant just to bluff and bait a FoW so they can Extirpate it) c) they might bring in all sorts of weird shit from the SB, so you might still need a Return to Dust {Serenity} or Swords to Plowshares {Dark Confidant, Vexing Shusher}. Turn 3 CWish-> ETutor, untap, Tutor on upkeep for Halo, play Halo is a perfectly feasible play here, unlike against TES.
Also, if they play the slower Divining Top version with just 1 Lotus Petal, keep Crucible in, since Wastelock is utterly brutal against them, and the game will easily last the 5-6 turns it takes for you to play Crucible with Counterspell mana up.



While we're talking about sideboards, I've been playing for a while 1x Tormod's Crypt there: since I've adopted MD Tolaria West too, it makes it easier to estabilish the brutal Academy/Crypt lock, and it lets me E.Tutor for graveyard hate on turn 1 - something especially useful against Ichorid, a matchup which doesn't like the (otherwise excellent) switch from Engineered Plague to Runed Halo. It also circumvent Aggro Loam's Chalices: they don't expect it and so generally don't keep a cycling land ready to rescue Loam in response anymore (I don't SB Meddling Mages against them: I want to keep all of my removal active, since their threats are way too fast).

In my list it replaced another experimental card that didn't work, but in most lists it would be in place of the SB Slaughter Pact - a card I seriously don't remember *ever* wanting to grab, and which I'm puzzled to see so many people like.

Adan
07-14-2008, 11:46 AM
* Mmm, how would you say that in German? Gefängnisefreieausfahrtkarte?

ROFL. It's "Gefängnisfreikarte" (literally "Prison-liberation-card").

"freie Ausfahrt" would be rather "clear drive" (the thing which you leave the motorways with).

Pelikanudo
07-14-2008, 12:40 PM
I have a suggestion I'm currently playing this deck from this link( with 1 more tundra :wink: ), and I think its the way to develop this archetype of landstill, but what about to substitute -1 decree of justice by this incredible card with incredible synergy with this archetype .I mean +1 kjeldoran outpost.
the link is of the list I'm playing is :
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=18101

somere more questions are:
:1: To run or not in side tormods
:2: How to side versus Gobbos
:3: Runed halo is good enough versus Gobbos instead those substituited Enginered played.

Citrus-God
07-14-2008, 06:28 PM
I have a suggestion I'm currently playing this deck from this link( with 1 more tundra :wink: ), and I think its the way to develop this archetype of landstill, but what about to substitute -1 decree of justice by this incredible card with incredible synergy with this archetype .I mean +1 kjeldoran outpost.
the link is of the list I'm playing is :
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=18101

Dont cut any lands in this deck for a random Kjeldoran Outpost; it messes with your consistent land drops and forces you to aggressively mulligan.


somere more questions are:
:1: To run or not in side tormods
:2: How to side versus Gobbos
:3: Runed halo is good enough versus Gobbos instead those substituited Enginered played.


1. Extirpate is good enough, however, I can see this deck running a singleton Crypt in the main which can be fetched by Cunning Wish -> ETutor -> Tormod's Crypt or Tolaria West -> Tormod's Crypt.

2. Side out a Cunning Wish, Standstill, Counterspell, FoF/Standstill for 3 Runed Halos and 1 BEB.

3. Actually, I've played against Price of Progress a lot and this deck pretty much smashes Goblins through tight play if you can get Runed Halo(s) on Price of Progress. Extirpate and Pulse of the Fields can be wished for, which is also pretty cool.

Serbitar
07-15-2008, 03:29 AM
Goblins plays Price of Progress?

I already found the goblin matchup not that easy with Plagues [Hell, I even lost once with on board Humility and Pulse against hordes of then 1/1s (I was topdecking badly obviously)], but haven't really tested with Halos. I guess not having to worry about black mana can be a bonus against 8-Denial Goblins. Luckily it's not that common a matchup anymore.

Pelikanudo
07-15-2008, 06:24 AM
Anti American , what I mean is not to cut a land instead the kjeldoran, from the list of the link i posted I'd take out 1 decree ( this list plays 3 decrees) and add a single kjeldoran outpost.
respect to the gobbos match up, Ive been playing several archetypes of standstill, and I really need the 4 E.Plague to keep on the game versus gobbos, what would you name vs gobbos with halo? pile driver. (gobbos usually dont run price of progress)

Another point is that playing the U/W/X version I don´t have access to pernicius, versus most of decks I prefer wrath of god ( there are too many stifles and nedles by there..), but there is a single match up in which I really prefer pernicius and is versus any kind of Stax deck.
So my question is how to side versus Stack, I supose you put in medlin mage, but which card will you name first ? and secondly? is r.halo usefull versus stax?
Another point I see is that the U/W/X version dont run stifles maindeck why?

An improvement I'll do to this deck is to add a single Fact or fiction and a stifleto the sideboard. Do you agree Anti American? which cards would you take out?
Please my friend could you suggest me which build of landstill are you playing and how to side versus the different meta please?
another point : to run or not to run Fact in maindeck if not in main deck for sure it will be in the side but if our goal is to get any kind of card advantage cunin->tutor->standstill is agood option?
Thanks.

NQN
07-15-2008, 08:02 AM
Halo is Ok vs Staxx since you can name Mishras Factory with it. But you already board in 4 Mages and 2-3 Extirpates so I don´t think you will get them in too.
Stifle isn´t good because it doesn´t fit into the gameplan of landstill. Sometimes it´s strong to use it on a fetchland turn 1 but since we play 0-1 wasteland we can´t continue with a fast LD plan so it´s better to just rely on the better spells in the lategame.

FlavaSava
07-15-2008, 12:05 PM
What should i cut in the Sb for a Fact or Fiction? 1 Meddling Mage?

Citrus-God
07-16-2008, 02:24 AM
Anti American , what I mean is not to cut a land instead the kjeldoran, from the list of the link i posted I'd take out 1 decree ( this list plays 3 decrees) and add a single kjeldoran outpost.
respect to the gobbos match up, Ive been playing several archetypes of standstill, and I really need the 4 E.Plague to keep on the game versus gobbos, what would you name vs gobbos with halo? pile driver. (gobbos usually dont run price of progress)

Kjeldoran won't really help you in the Goblin match-up. If you truly want to seal up the Vial Goblins match-up, I suggest you run 2 copies of Circle of Protection: Red alongside your ETutor. So when you board in your CoP:Rs, board in your Tutor as well.

As for E-Plague, there are many solutions to fighting this match-up; it's just that E-Plague is the most versatile. If you dont want to exhaust yourself through amazingly tight play, I suggest that you stay away from E-Plague. I'm not putting you down as a player, but it's just that E-Plague requires a tremendous amount of experience. DIF can play with E-Plagues in this match-up properly because he's ton an extensive amount of testing with E-Plague as a SB card.

If you want to learn to play with Runed Halos against Goblins, the cards you should usually name are state dependent. Sometimes you name Warcheif because of haste, Piledriver, SCG. It's all very state dependent. Usually I name SCG with them late game, Piledrivers midgame, Lackey or Warcheif early game.


Another point is that playing the U/W/X version I don´t have access to pernicius, versus most of decks I prefer wrath of god ( there are too many stifles and nedles by there..), but there is a single match up in which I really prefer pernicius and is versus any kind of Stax deck.
So my question is how to side versus Stack, I supose you put in medlin mage, but which card will you name first ? and secondly? is r.halo usefull versus stax?


Against Stax, you should side in Meddling Mage and Extirpate. Side out your 3 WoGs, 2 Humilities, 1 S2P for 4 Meddling Mage and 2 Extirpates. I dont like Runed Halo in this deck, even though it's a perm. It truly doesnt do anything. Okay, if you're playing Runed Halo on Factory, you're doing nothing. So use your MM to chant against bombs like Geddon or CoW and Extirpates to remove bombs, troublesome cards, and a way to answer Wasteland. Remove Chalice using EE to protect yourself and keep hands that can answer a first turn bomb. Also, your game plan in this MU is to go aggro with DoJ or Dragon.

As for the Deed comment, DIF is running a list (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2559348&postcount=12) with Nevinyrral's Disk as a 1-of over a WoG as his versatile mass removal slot. It's a good card because it can be recurred by Academy Ruins and can be fetched by Cunning Wish. Nice way to put a fix on NQG post-board if the NQG player decides to get tricky.



Another point I see is that the U/W/X version dont run stifles maindeck why?

1. You have to choose between mana denial or flexibility; you can't have both like the old school Keeper decks in which they run 5 Waste-effects, 2 Gorilla Shamans, and 2 black tutors. Landstill can definitely run Wastelands because it doesnt take up many slots, but Stifle will just force you to eschew Cunning Wish altogether. Also, this format's Gorilla Shaman (Dwarven Miner) would probably can removed instantly. If there's a way to run mana denial versus the right decks, it's running CoW in the Sideboard (assuming you run Wastelands maindeck.

2. Because Combo isnt bigger yet.


An improvement I'll do to this deck is to add a single Fact or fiction and a stifleto the sideboard. Do you agree Anti American? which cards would you take out?

I have always liked Fact or Fiction as a Wish card in this deck, but this is more like a flexible slot. I have always been an advocate of FoF, so it may be slight bias. I believe FoF is an extremely powerful card that keeps your position as the dominant deck late game. Sure, 7 mana? Have any of you learned the concepts of pre-wishing for a card in response to something stupid and irrelevant when your opponent's tap out? Okay, in response to your Mystic Enforcer I wish for FoF. Main 1, Swords, FoF/counters back up. So what have we learned about FoF from my previous post on FoF? FoF is to keep the opponent inferior late game if you lack gas in your hand or if you want to outplay your opponent.

As for Stifle, I dont think you really need it if you have Stifle? If you want to protect a land, then wish for Teferi's Response. Want to counter a Goblin CIP trigger? Wish for BEB. Wanna fuck combo over? Wish for Extirpate. Seriously, all the cards you want to stop with Stifle, other cards in your Sideboard can do it better.



Please my friend could you suggest me which build of landstill are you playing and how to side versus the different meta please?

I'll PM you my list and how I side and what cards + Sideboards I use. I also suggest you talk to DIF who is an absolutely amazing Landstill player. He'll help you a lot with many all things Cunning-Landstill.


another point : to run or not to run Fact in maindeck if not in main deck for sure it will be in the side but if our goal is to get any kind of card advantage cunin->tutor->standstill is agood option?
Thanks.

I think Cunning Wish -> Tutor -> Standstill is worthless because it cant help you recover from bad positions really. It's only a play to keep your opponent inferior off a +1 card advantage. FoF, unlike ETutor -> Standstill, at least can help you find out what your opponent's afraid of and so you can adjust accordingly so that you can remain to keep your opponent's inferior or you can use FoF to dig for DoJ to end the game quickly. Also, unlike ETutor -> Standstill, you still get a draw step or you're making more CA (and CQ) in the long run because it doesnt interfere with your draw step.

As for FoFs maindeck, I am such a huge advocate of them. I know I pulled a Richard Feldman and was quite greedy during testing, as he suggested, the only way you will ever know certain cards can be helpful to you is if you were greedy and ran multiple copies. I cut Brainstorms to play 4 FoFs. Then I went for a 3 FoF 3 BS configuration. You know what the conclusion was? I absolutely love FoF! But due to lack of room, I'm afraid you cant run more than 2 copies maindeck. I wouldn't cut Brainstorms because the format is really fast right now and really does require that you have a certain set of cards by a given turn. FoF can't dig for those cards unless you stall until you made enough land drops to make FoF count. Luckily, by just running 2 Copies and 3 Wishes, I'm sure you'll find an opportunity to find an FoF. Also, I wrote a giant post on FoF and my love for them. Check it out if you want to read my explanation for why it is an amazing card. Seriously, nobody makes perfect piles, and even if they're near perfect, analyze the situation carefully and you learn to play correctly against your opponent.

I wouldn't advocate on not running FoFs maindeck since this deck lacks fuel quickly, so you could look into something like Compulsive Research, but it's crap because of it's sorcery-ness. But DIF's list has done well without it since he was using Cunning Wish as a card advantage supplement slot, so run something if you want, as long as it makes sense; like alternative counters or maindeck Crucibles of Worlds which can make-up for your lack of card draw. Also, make sure you evaluate your meta carefully because some cards work in fast metagames and other cards dont. For example, Absorb is slow so it wouldnt be that great in a fast metagame but against fast decks, you can pitch it to FoW. Mana Leak can both be pitched to FoW and be used aggressively against fast decks while it lacks some leverage against slower decks. Crucible of Worlds absolutely sucks against faster decks while it absolutely shines against some slower decks.


What should i cut in the Sb for a Fact or Fiction? 1 Meddling Mage?

Or you could cut BEB. FoF, imo, is a personal preference. If you want to know my theory on the Wish-board, I believe that it should be built off metagame calls, general targets, and personal preferences. And to emphasize on the personal preferences, I believe players should only wish for cards they feel comfortable wishing for. Some players like me have an extensive experience with Fact or Fiction so we plan ahead to Wish for FoF and casting it and picking great piles, while others have an extensive experience playing with other whacky cards like Haunting Hymn against control and Tsabo's Decree against tribal decks. So play cards that you feel comfortable playing because I dont expect many players to play cards like FoF properly. Also, I'm sure it took awhile before players got used to playing Slaughter Pact.


Goblins plays Price of Progress?
I already found the goblin matchup not that easy with Plagues [Hell, I even lost once with on board Humility and Pulse against hordes of then 1/1s (I was topdecking badly obviously)], but haven't really tested with Halos. I guess not having to worry about black mana can be a bonus against 8-Denial Goblins. Luckily it's not that common a matchup anymore.

Even if it is a common match-up, it seems to be that the only reason why I lost most of games against them is due to lack of draw and lack of a quick win condition, that and a combination of Price of Progress. Also, being paranoid is good, so be preparing for PoP, I also prepare against Dragon Stompy as well. So much isnt really lost there.

As for the Vial Goblin match-up, I truly think that cards like Sphere of Law is amazing against them. I mean, it's easy; keep removal and Piledriver from doing anything. If you feel those are narrow cards, run CoP: Red. Right now, I'm using 3 Runed Halo and Ajani Goldmane. Ajani is awesome; it makes wins faster, makes tokens deadlier, gains life, and stalls the game into oblivion. Runed Halo is awesome too because it does things like answer randomness or keep Piledriver from being a pain.

FlavaSava
07-16-2008, 03:35 AM
I see that in DIF's List plays only 23 lands, i'm often, not very often, but often with 24 lands screwed. I know this list plays two Eternal Dragon, but is that enough? I'll test the list from DIF this saturday on a tournament

Citrus-God
07-16-2008, 03:44 AM
I see that in DIF's List plays only 23 lands, i'm often, not very often, but often with 24 lands screwed.

I tested the list with only 5 colorless sources and 2 Eternal Dragons. Sometimes, those would screw up my opening hand. To be honest though, it never truly bothered me because the chances of the combination of those 7 cards screwing up my opening hand is slim. If you're concerned with getting a specific color, you could cut a Factory for an actual color producing land or another fetchland.


I now this list plays two Eternal Dragon, but is that enough? I'll test the list from DIF this saturday on a tournament

If you feel that a land is more important that a Dragon, then I suggest you cut that Dragon for another land. DIF only ran the 2nd Dragon because of the lack of win conditions this deck draws. It was more of a personal preference on his part to be honest. As funny as it is, this is also why he added the 4th Factory back in.

Pelikanudo
07-16-2008, 06:28 AM
I have a question to everybody in the post:
What about substituiting Return to dust by Fracturing gust. versus decks like Enchantress, Affinity and Stax
This archetype is suposed to work worse than the 4 colour build because of not playing pernis, so I think this card is a must in the side for cunnin option.
Everybody agree?

diffy
07-16-2008, 06:38 AM
I have a question to everybody in the post:
What about substituting Return to dust by Fracturing gust. versus decks like Enchantress, Affinity and Stax
This archetype is supposed to work worse than the 4 colour build because of not playing Pernicious Deed, so I think this card is a must in the side for cunning option.
Everybody agree?

Read the thread please - this was brought up on the last page (link (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=249027&postcount=208)). Close to all your other points (Outpost, Stifles etc.) have also been brought up in the past - either in this thread or in the old one (found here (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5449)).


What should I cut in the Sb for a Fact or Fiction? 1 Meddling Mage?

I wouldn't play the sideboard Fact or Fiction at all - Cunning Wish for Fact or Fiction is just incredibly slow. I had it in the very first incarnation of Cunning Landstill (almost a year ago) and I wished for it exactly once during all my testing and tournament play and even in that occasion it was pretty bad. Also, if you want a 'Card Advantage' Wish target, I'd go with Enlightened Tutor. On a neutral board it does something similar than Fact or Fiction (it puts you into a dominant position by fetching Humility) and on a bad board it better than Fact or Fiction as it can get you Engineered Explosives or Nevinyrral's Disk which are both as fast or faster than Fact while being more reliable (there's a chance that you don't find removal in the FoF).


I see that in DIF's List plays only 23 lands, I'm often, not very often, but often with 24 lands screwed. I know this list plays two Eternal Dragon, but is that enough? I'll test the list from DIF this saturday on a tournament

Well I was close to always flooded with more than 23 lands and am still so rather frequently now - hitting land drops is really not that hard with 23 lands + 2 Eternal Dragons (which is the equivalent of playing 25 mana sources). If you play a little carefully (i.e. fetch Basics first to avoid Wasteland, keep Brainstorms in hand to dig for lands when you need them etc.) you shouldn't have any problems.
You might get some opening hands with only 1 land and an Eternal Dragon and have to mulligan these, but this rather unlikely event does no where near outweigh the pros of playing more Eternal Dragons (beaters) - having access to more beaters is essential in my opinion: nowadays, more and more decks can actually recover during the time you've taken control of the game but not won yet, be it by finding an Intuition or any other sort of engine or just by drawing into enough good stuff an protection. To keep your opponent's window of opportunity small, you have to be able to apply more pressure after taking control of the game - Eternal Dragons, more Decree of Justices and a full set of Mishra's Factories help great deal in this matter.

Pelikanudo
07-16-2008, 07:12 AM
The question really should be whether Fracturing Ghust is that much better than Return to Dust to merit a slot in the already rather tight sideboard - Return to Dust has an easier to obtain mana cost and still hell of a strong effect as even against Stax or Enchantress there are only rarely more than two relevant Artefacts/Enchantments on the board. Also, the fact that Return to Dust removes the cards from the game can be randomly useful too (e.g. against Modular or Academy Ruins).
As the consent seems to be that Fracturing Ghust can not really replace another Disenchant effect in the Wishboard, I'd say that it's too narrow and that it doesn't offer a significant enough plus in power if compared to Return to Dust to warrant a slot.



As already stated, Engineered Explosives is very good against Counterbalance - max out on these first. If you then still feel as though you don't have enough outs to it, I'd go with a single Nevinyrral's Disk in the place of one Wrath of God which is not only a good Enlightened Tutor target but which also offers a nice out to Blood Moon and all sorts of other randomness. The fact that it is a turn slower than Wrath hurts sometimes, but, if you plan a little ahead and if you know what you're doing, you should be able to work around this too.

What happen with Return to Dust is that it to be effective has to been played as a sorcery, that is an issue I dont like for this reason : however if our opponent has played tangle wire( stuff we dont really want to counter because we have to handle other more important troubles), the fact that F.Gust is instant can avoid this problem. Ill test it and I'll tell you, I really like the idea of Nevinirral maindeck instead 1 WoG.

My definately list will be :
// Lands (25)
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
2 Plains
3 Island
1 Tolaria West
1 Academy Ruins
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Wasteland // I really find the slot of atleast 1 wasteland as a must
1 Kjeldoran outpost // I want to try this card instead 1 decree slot

// Winconditions (3)
1 Eternal Dragon // one dragon is enough in my oppinion , playin 25 lands
2 Decree of Justice

// Card Advantage (12)
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Cunning Wish // I like the 3 cunnin slot in some match ups we are
//desperatly waiting to draw this gem F.ex : burn(Pulse) or versus loam(Ext) , no fact
//because it 'll be in the side I recognize its too good to not to play it in anyway,
1 Crucible of worlds // I don't really understand why you dont carry at
//least one in maindeck (it can be searched via wish->tutor)

// Permission (8)
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

// Removal (12)
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Wrath of God
1 Nevinyrral's Disk // I'm soo happy because of this innovating idea,
2 Humility
3 Engineered Explosives

/// Sideboard (15 cards)
4 Meddling Mage
3 Runed Halo
2 Extirpate
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Fracturing gust
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Fact or fiction
1 Tormod's Crypt

//In here I've substituited 1 extirpate by 1 tormods because of the tutor way
//to looking for it, F.Gust is a card I really want to test. it seems to be quite
//powerfull, althoutgh its difficult mana cost, and the 1 BEB by 1 FoF is
//just preference, but I recognize I dont really want to face a Gobbos decks
//without my anhelated Plagues independently we play 1 BEB or not.
// Another point is to play Dismantle blow as a both 1FoF and 1Return to dust slot and leave place for the 1BEB.

//Another question how to side vs archetypes like B/W Confidant or Eva
//Green thats why I think FoF is a must in at least in side. In here Halos are a
//house. To put or not to put in Mages if so what to name?

Impresions?

FlavaSava
07-16-2008, 01:48 PM
One-Two little Question:
What do you think about playing 61 Cards? I know this is suboptimal, but i want to play wasteland/CoW so i cut in DIFs list 1 Decree for a Crucible, but i doenst find a slot in the manabase(which does't make the base too instabile) for a wasteland, so i thougt over playing 61 cards. What do you mean?
@pelikanudo
the return to dust removes the Artifacts/Enchantments, which is important in the mirror.

EDIT:
One more question
How looks you boarding plan against Mirror, NQG, DS, Deadguy?

diffy
07-16-2008, 02:41 PM
One-Two little Question:
What do you think about playing 61 Cards? I know this is suboptimal, but i want to play wasteland/CoW so i cut in DIFs list 1 Decree for a Crucible, but i doenst find a slot in the manabase(which does't make the base too instabile) for a wasteland, so i thougt over playing 61 cards. What do you mean?


I wouldn't play more than 5 colourless sources so I'd just cut a Mishra's Factory for a Wasteland - I don't really recommend this change though.
One of my last builds, recently piloted to a top8 finish by Nicolai Ruckel (list found here (http://web17.accelerated.de/turniere/2008-07-05/legacy/Platz_6_Nicolai_Ruckel.mwDeck)), might be to your liking.



One more question
How looks you boarding plan against Mirror, NQG, DS, Deadguy?

Using this (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2559348&postcount=12) list as reference for the boarding.

Mirror
-2 Wrath of God
-2 Humility
-1 Engineered Explosives
-4 Standstill
+4 Meddling Mage
+2 Extirpate
+3 Runed Halo

Balanced NQG
-1 Eternal Dragon
-1 Decree of Justice
-1 Fact or Fiction
+3 Runed Halo

Non-Balanced NQG
-2 Cunning Wish
-1 Decree of Justice
-1 Nevinyrral's Disk
-1 Eternal Dragon
+3 Runed Halo
+2 Extirpate

Dragon Stompy
-1 Fact or Fiction
-1 Standstill
-1 Counterspell
+3 Runed Halo

Deadguy
-1 Counterspell
-1 Nevinyrral's Disk
-2 Cunning Wish
+3 Runed Halo
+1 Enlightened Tutor

The boarding plans are by no means definitive though - I'm always looking for input in this matter.

FlavaSava
07-16-2008, 03:09 PM
I wouldn't play more than 5 colourless sources so I'd just cut a Mishra's Factory for a Wasteland - I don't really recommend this change though.
One of my last builds, recently piloted to a top8 finish by Nicolai Ruckel (list found here (http://web17.accelerated.de/turniere/2008-07-05/legacy/Platz_6_Nicolai_Ruckel.mwDeck)), might be to your liking.

Yes thx for list, but I want to play a list with FoFs and 2 Dragons... I'll try cut a Mishra's Factory

Mirror
-2 Wrath of God
-2 Humility
-1 Engineered Explosives
-4 Standstill
+4 Meddling Mage On what do you say it? U play nearly the same deck, all cards u name, you playing too.
+2 Extirpate
+3 Runed Halo




//Edit:
What would you say about following changes in Nicolai Ruckels list?
- 1 Decree of Justice
- 1 Cunning Wish
- 1 Wrath of God
- 1 Island
+ 2 Fact or Fiction
+ 1 Nevinyrral's Disk
+ 1 Tundra

In DIF's list this changes
- 1 Eternal Dragon
- 1 Decree of Justice
- 1 Mishras Factory
+ 1 Plains
+ 1 Wasteland
+ 1 Crucible of Worlds

or maybe play only 2 plains and also 2 Dragons?


Then its this list
// Lands (24)
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
3 Plains
3 Island
1 Tolaria West
1 Academy Ruins
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Wasteland

// Winconditions (4)
1 Eternal Dragon
2 Decree of Justice
1 Crucible of Worlds

// Card Advantage (12)
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
2 Cunning Wish
2 Fact or Fiction

// Permission (8)
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

// Removal (12)
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Wrath of God
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
2 Humility
3 Engineered Explosives

Drac
07-16-2008, 04:57 PM
By Siding out Standstills for Mages you removed the useless Stills for 2/2 beaters. most of the times the Mage can name handy stuff. for instance if you have a crucible out and they dont. or if you have more factorys on board you can name StP.

Anyways my point is that he sided the mages in not because they are good in the mirror, but because they are better then standstills.

FlavaSava
07-17-2008, 02:47 AM
Anyways my point is that he sided the mages in not because they are good in the mirror, but because they are better then standstills.

Now i understand.

Hey guys what do you say to my list?

NQN
07-17-2008, 09:11 AM
Your list is +1 land +1 CoW -1 DoJ -1 Dragon from DIF´s list. If you feel better with those changes, play it.

FlavaSava
07-17-2008, 12:16 PM
There is one more question
Should i prefer to play one Eternal Dragon over one plains? Or is it too much if i play crucible/fetchies?
I know i annoy you...

jazzykat
07-17-2008, 12:21 PM
Why is your list better than Nicolai's or DIF's list? What does your testing tell you about your questions?

FlavaSava
07-17-2008, 12:48 PM
Plains/Eternal Dragon:
It´s very differnt sometimes you need an addional plains/land(i cant say it better in english...) and sometimes u want a finisher...
I dont to come to a decision, i will play the Eternal Dragon because he is a big guy, although he isnt a land drop. Mondy i can tell your more, then i will test him on a big tournament(dülmen in germany).

Citrus-God
07-17-2008, 04:36 PM
There is one more question
Should i prefer to play one Eternal Dragon over one plains? Or is it too much if i play crucible/fetchies?
I know i annoy you...

Actually, you would much rather have Eternal Dragon over the 3rd Plains to be honest. Eternal Dragon is an amazing finisher, simply put. I mean, if you run the 2nd Dragon over the third Plains, the only difference in the mana base between you and DIF is the 4th Factory and the Wasteland.

3duece
07-17-2008, 10:39 PM
Eternal Dragon has such poor synergy with humility, I just don't see him being worth it when I'd usually rather have humility in play.

4Tundra
2Underground Sea
1Scrubland
2Polluted Delta
4Flooded Strand
4Mishra's Factory
3Plains
2Island
1Academy Ruins
1Tolaria West
1Wasteland

4Counterspell
4Force of Will
4Brainstorm
4Standstill
2Fact or Fiction

4Swords to Plowshares
3Wrath of God
3Decree of Justice
2Humility

4Engineered Explosives
1Crucible of Worlds

MULocke
07-17-2008, 11:50 PM
Eternal Dragon has amazing synergy with land drops, however. He finds a Tundra when you need more blue, he finds basics when you're getting hit by wastelands and moon effects, and he makes sure you do the purpose of the deck: hit land drops. He also operates under a standstill, produces CA in the lategame, and is a win condition that is hard to deal with. Yes, he sucks when you have humility out. Then again, you have humility out. It really doesn't matter anymore.