[Deck] UBGx Landstill

[i_need_the_extra_turns]

Hi, thats my current 4c list:

Land [24]

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Academy Ruins
2 Wasteland
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Nantuko Monastary

Instants [19]
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Cunning Wish
1 Fact or Fiction

sorceries [2]
2 Decree of Justice

creatures [1]
1 Eternal Dragon

enchantments [9]
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Standstill
2 Humility

artifacts [5]
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Engineered Explosives


sideboard [15]
4 Meddling Mage
4 Extirpate
3 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Dismanting Blow
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Engineered Plague

Maindeck:
I like the 3/3 split between EE and Deed.
I'm not sure about the e-dragon. With e-dragon and 24 or 25 lands (+1 tropical).
I have one free slot, I mostly play here a single FoF.

[Frenger]

Alright, i need a bit of help making a deck for a tournament in a few days. 5 packs and an FNM card are on the line so its really no big deal. I haven't played non-MWS magic in a while, so this is really just for fun because i miss tournaments, but i want the best deck possible. I've been playing the hell out of this deck on MWS though and i'm eager to play some real opponents.

My ideal list is this:

Land [25]
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Tolaria West
1 Academy Ruins
1 Wasteland
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Nantuko Monastary

Instants [18]
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Cunning Wish

sorceries [2]
2 Decree of Justice

creatures [1]
1 Eternal Dragon

enchantments [10]
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Standstill
2 Humility

artifacts [4]
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Engineered Explosives

sideboard [15]
4 Meddling Mage
4 Extirpate
3 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Seed Spark
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Tormod's Crypt

But the problem is I'm missing:
1x Underground Sea
1x Polluted Delta
1x Humility
1x Cunning Wish
2x Decree of Justice

and on the side im missing
3x Meddling Mage
1x Pulse of the Fields
1x Tormods Crypt
1x Seed Spark

I have 1 humility and 1 cunning wish, but i don't know if i should run them as 1 ofs?

I think decree of justice will be replaced by Fact or Fiction, Underground Sea for an Island, Polluted Delta for a plains, but i don't know what to do with one wish and one humility.

Seed spark will become krosan grip, Tormods will become engineered plague, I have no substitute for pulse of the fields, maybe i could run uh... Submerge? i have that and liked it in faerie stompy when i played that deck.

Alternatively I wouldn't run my single wish and make a more basic SB which, based on cards I have, would be like: 4 extirpate, 3 BEB, 3 hydroblast, 1 meddling mage, 4 gilded drakes (can you think of a more ghetto SB?)

Replacing medding mages will be hard, maybe gilded drake? (I have them)

Other cards i have (that i no longer run but could fill up slots) Stifle, Edict, additional Monasteries, Wrath (i have one), disenchant.

I know hindsight is 20/20, but leaving 75% of my magic cards in storage was a really stupid idea.

[Frenger]

This is what i plan on running if i don't hear any input.

'Ghetto 4c Landstill'

Land [24]
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Tolaria West
1 Academy Ruins
1 Wasteland
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Nantuko Monastary

Instants [22]
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Cunning Wish
3 Fact or Fiction
2 Diabolic Edict (debatable, stifle or ponder could also be in this slot)

creatures [1]
1 Eternal Dragon

enchantments [9]
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Standstill
1 Humility

artifacts [4]
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Engineered Explosives

sideboard [15]
1 Meddling Mage
3 Gilded Drake
4 Extirpate
3 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Krosan Grip
1 Submerge
1 Engineered Plague

If the mail comes, i'll put a second mage in and probably swap out plains for the tundra i'll be getting, but those two cards are all i can get in time.

[landstill101]

This is what i plan on running if i don't hear any input.

'Ghetto 4c Landstill'

Land [24]
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Tolaria West
1 Academy Ruins
1 Wasteland
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Nantuko Monastary

Instants [22]
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Cunning Wish
3 Fact or Fiction
2 Diabolic Edict (debatable, stifle or ponder could also be in this slot)

creatures [1]
1 Eternal Dragon

enchantments [9]
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Standstill
1 Humility

artifacts [4]
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Engineered Explosives

sideboard [15]
1 Meddling Mage
3 Gilded Drake
4 Extirpate
3 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Krosan Grip
1 Submerge
1 Engineered Plague

If the mail comes, i'll put a second mage in and probably swap out plains for the tundra i'll be getting, but those two cards are all i can get in time.

Don't take out the edicts for ponders, because you are running 3 FOF you have enough draw, you don't need the extra, but I would try to find a way to stuff 3 stifles in, such as if your meta isn't goblin heavy or aggro heavy, take out the edicts and a fact to put in 3 stifles.

I would also take out the tolaria west(it really is a bad card.) and put in either another dragon or a decree.

[i_need_the_extra_turns]

@Frenger

You have to play at least 2 Decree of Justice. They are the perfect finisher for the deck. Out: 2 edicts.

Then play a 3/3 split between EE and Deed, because the EE is faster.
Play a 2nd Humility. Humility just owns many decks. -1 FoF
Add the 2nd wish.

@landstill101
I dont see the point with stifles in landstill.
The only reason to play stifles in landstill is to protect your own manabase.
Stifle a Ringleader or something else isnt important today.
And stifle an opponents first turn fetchie doesnt bring you a game braking advantage, because u are the control deck... Maybe it can help u to reach the midgame, but thats all.
But I like stifles in the landstill mirror (vs Deed/EE AND Decree).

I think one of the interesting matchups is ugr and ugb tempo ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh, because this matchups is tough. (I would guess 50/50, the other ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh matchups are like 60-40 in favor of landstill).
There are some points to improve this matchup:

- Spell snares. They are amazing. I dont like to play less counters than my opponent with his ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh (4 FoW, 4 spell snares, 4 daze), the spell snares helps u.

- Ponder. Ponder helps u to find the important land drops to improve your manabase and reach the mid/late game. And it can much more than a stifle.

[raharu]

In the 3c thread Ponder has been discused recently, and it was sugested that it would be stronger in a 4c build because of the mana-fixing potential. Ferenger, I wouldn't dismiss them just yet. Considering that you run 6x sweepers and 4x StP, I think the Edicts are excess. I, personally, would run another EE and either an E. Tutor or a Ponder in the Edict slots, if the EE is available, otherwise the Tutor and the Ponder.

[Frenger]

@Frenger

You have to play at least 2 Decree of Justice. They are the perfect finisher for the deck. Out: 2 edicts.

Then play a 3/3 split between EE and Deed, because the EE is faster.
Play a 2nd Humility. Humility just owns many decks. -1 FoF
Add the 2nd wish.


That list was not ideal because i didn't have all of the cards. In my ideal build i run 2 humility and 2 decree. I was just running the above list in a very casual tournament because i wanted to play while cards were in the mail.

As for the deed/ee i like 4/2. I often like deed more and wish EE's were deeds. I can also fetch EE with Tolaria West (which does NOT suck) if i really need it.

As far as tolaria west goes, its amazing. Sure it doesn't have instant speed, but it makes the lategame so versatile. Have a crucible? Get a wasteland and lock them. Want to re use your EE? Nab an academy and lock them. Mishra's been extirpated? opponent has a grunt or some fatty, or you just need to get in there? Go for nantuko monastery and first strike 'em. Stuck without a green or black mana and cant find a fetch? Fix your mana base. Want a basic? Get it!

I am consistently amazed at how much that card helps me late game. It's weak early on because it comes into play tapped, but i've even used it, then replayed it with crucible to make my decree one bigger.

Stifle i dropped a while ago because my meta has little combo where that card shines. I found it to only be useful in the early game when it can generate tempo, but really a dead draw later on. Spell Snare is better in this slot as its much more useful later on, but still good in the early turns. However i run neither.

[Dark_Cynic87]

So what's the consensus on Goyf vs. Humility? Which is better? I'm guessing goblin/Ichorid/more aggro meta that Humility is better with Goyf being better in a metagoyf. Is this right? The only other question I have is what's better in an unknown meta? I'm guessing Humility.

I was just wondering because a lot of landstill lists were running goyfs at GenCon, which was an unknown meta other than people believing that Thresh would be a major contender (there was quite a bit, but none of it did well).

Out of curiosity, wouldn't Chant be better than Stifle? Still good in the combo matchup but also a fog effect against aggro, where stifle is not any good except for against Fetches/Wastes? I know it would lower the blue count (FoW) but it's just an idea. If you've discussed it already I'd like to know how the discussion turned out. I couldn't find it within the thread.

Pce,

--DC

[Frenger]

So what's the consensus on Goyf vs. Humility? Which is better? I'm guessing goblin/Ichorid/more aggro meta that Humility is better with Goyf being better in a metagoyf. Is this right? The only other question I have is what's better in an unknown meta? I'm guessing Humility.

I was just wondering because a lot of landstill lists were running goyfs at GenCon, which was an unknown meta other than people believing that Thresh would be a major contender (there was quite a bit, but none of it did well).

Out of curiosity, wouldn't Chant be better than Stifle? Still good in the combo matchup but also a fog effect against aggro, where stifle is not any good except for against Fetches/Wastes? I know it would lower the blue count (FoW) but it's just an idea. If you've discussed it already I'd like to know how the discussion turned out. I couldn't find it within the thread.

Pce,

--DC

Humility is better. Humility wrecks most decks and has incredible synergy with mishra's, nantuko, and decree. Goyf is just... goyf.

Stifle is way more versatile than chant, and can do more versus more decks, counter storm, fetches, waste, survival, etc. It's also blue and costs one less mana (and a colored one at that). Then again, i don't even run stifle because it's not as good as alternatives.

I went ahead and copied DiF and made a google doc's of my list if you're curious: http://docs.google.com/View?docid=dd47b5fq_0hsrwt4c2

[Mandalore]

Wondering about ponder inclusion I've reached this list after some days of tests, the only annoying thing is that I had to include the 61st card, yes it's proved that's almost the same of running 60 cards, but I'd prefer to cut a card if I could in the near future, the problem is: which?

Here's my new list



Manasources (24)

6 fetches (4 strand 2 delta)
3 tundra
2 underground sea
2 tropical island
1 scrubland
1 savannah
1 plains
1 island
4 mishra's factory
1 wasteland
1 tolaria west
1 academy ruins

Permissions (8)

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell

Card Advantage (13)

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Ponder
2 Cunning Wish

Removals (10)

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Enginereed Explosives

Utilities (3)

2 Humility
1 Crucible of Worlds

Winconditions (3)

1 Eternal Dragon
2 Decree of Justice



The sideboard is meta-dependent, so it's useless to post it.

Some considerations: I do prefer the split 3/3 between deed and e.e. manly because e.e. are more reliable and flexible than deed, especially when sometimes I get color screwed and I can't cast deed for several turns, and obviously when I find academy for recursion.

The second thought was about the cut of one crucible, this may be questionable, but I needed to find a place where to put ponders to make some tests, and that place seemed the only one reasonable. I cut one FoF for the second slot (like somebody I used to play one in the last free slot), and then I'd have liked to cut one land, but I don't know if the deck can afford it (for the 3c version with ponders 23 lands seems enough), anyway, even if I had to cut one, I wouldn't know which :confused:

That is the reason for the 61st card :cry:

For now the tests seemed to confirm the utility of ponder, but one worry still wafts, because ponder is a sorcery and doesn't fit sometimes with an instant engine deck, mainly when you try to draw to respond to something, if you have a ponder in hand it's very difficult to respond... (lol)
So it's better to use them right after their draw, to fix the mana or adjust the next draw, at least they can also be a force pitch, but that's not a fair use.

The last thing: I wouldn't run a landstill with W without including 2 humility, they are surely necessary, then THESE slots are untouchable

Have you guys some ideas? Or suggestion?
Has any of you made a test with ponder?
Some alternative "ponder lists"?

I wait for your answer, and as usual, forgive my jungle english :tongue:

[Solpugid]

After a while of playing 4c Landstill, I started realizing that I lost more matches to color screw (having uncastable cards in a hand for a few turns, which can make all the difference) than I won by having swords over alternative removal spells. Therefore, I switched over to a Ubg list and realized how awesome it is to not have to run stifle. This slot left room to test ponder, and I've been quite impressed. Because my removal suite is at the 2cc slot, a first turn sorcery is just fine. here's the list:

Lands (24)
3 Tropical island
3 Underground sea
3 Flooded strand
4 Polluted delta
4 Island
2 Wasteland
1 Academy ruins
4 Mishra's factory

Creatures (4)
4 Tarmogoyf (the additional speed he adds is great in a less controlling build)

Other spells (32; blue count 20)
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder (surprisingly good)
4 Standstill
4 Force of will
3 Counterspell
2 Spell snare (these have been excellent)
4 Smother (diabolic edict being tested as well)
4 Pernicious deed
2 Engineered explosives (deed just seems better in my meta)
1 Vedalken shackles
1 Crucible of worlds (Bardo is right, one copy feels perfect)

The list is kinda weird, but in testing it's run a lot more smoothly than other versions I've played (such as 4c and those without deed).

Have I sacrificed too much of Landstill's land-game advantage, or become too vulnerable to counterbalance?

[diffy]

That is the reason for the 61st card :cry:


As your curve is actually lower than in the UWb Version, you can totally get away with cutting a land - 24 mana sources are enough with 7 ways to fix your land drops early.

A manabase along these lines should work just perfectly:

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Windswept Heath
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Tolaria West
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Dust Bowl

1 Eternal Dragon

You can get away with only playing 3 Mishra's Factories due to the fact that your mirror is already rather good due to Decree of Justice and Dust Bowl. Also, if need arises, you can always transmute Tolaria West for a Factory.
The main problem with this manabase is that it runs rather low on Blue sources which have become more important with the recent addition of Ponder - you might want to cut the Plains for an Island and adjust the fetchlands accordingly to further stabilize the manabase and play a split between Spell Snare and Counterspell to be less colour hungry. Playing some Spell Snares also somewhat remedies the 'problem' that Ponder is a Sorcery.



The second thought was about the cut of one crucible


Running only 1 CoW is okay: you can always tutor it up with Cunning Wish for Enlightened Tutor if need be and it's not that essential to your gameplan any more if you play a halfway decent manabase.
If you don't find yourself tutoring for Crucible often, you can also play a single Life from the Loam in its slot: it is cheaper (quite important as it can assure you land drops from turn 2 onwards basically warping you into the lategame) and uncounterable. The synergy with Tolaria West is also rather cute.



Have I sacrificed too much of Landstill's land-game advantage, or become too vulnerable to counterbalance?


The former should never be an issue in deck-construction: you still have a better lategame than most decks in the format: even if you weaken your lategame a little, you'll still win when you reach it... now you'd better do something to assure that you do reach it.
The later is solved by playing more Explosives/Deeds - I can't see a problem here either because you do play both.

[Mandalore]

As your curve is actually lower than in the UWb Version, you can totally get away with cutting a land - 24 mana sources are enough with 7 ways to fix your land drops early.

You can get away with only playing 3 Mishra's Factories due to the fact that your mirror is already rather good due to Decree of Justice and Dust Bowl. Also, if need arises, you can always transmute Tolaria West for a Factory.
The main problem with this manabase is that it runs rather low on Blue sources which have become more important with the recent addition of Ponder - you might want to cut the Plains for an Island and adjust the fetchlands accordingly to further stabilize the manabase and play a split between Spell Snare and Counterspell to be less colour hungry. Playing some Spell Snares also somewhat remedies the 'problem' that Ponder is a Sorcery.



Only one question...
Why playing dust bowl instead of a simple wasteland? If there are recursion reasons (even without loam/CoW), we must consider that bowl requires 3 mana in addition to the tap, and sometimes we won't be able to activate it when comes into play,either because we need open mana, or because we don't have open mana, therefore I'm a bit skeptic about the bowl... And can also be wasted like any other nonbasic land.

I only need an explanation about this choice, the others are sharable.

Thx and Bye :tongue:

[Citrus-God]

Only one question...
Why playing dust bowl instead of a simple wasteland? If there are recursion reasons (even without loam/CoW), we must consider that bowl requires 3 mana in addition to the tap, and sometimes we won't be able to activate it when comes into play,either because we need open mana, or because we don't have open mana, therefore I'm a bit skeptic about the bowl... And can also be wasted like any other nonbasic land.


When you play Wasteland, it's only there to destroy random recursion lands. Dust Bowl, however, does more than just destroy randomly recursion lands; it destroys Manlands in the mirror, which is absolutely brutal. Against Thresh, I slowly destroyed their Green sources while I topdecked trash for 4 turns in a row.

As for mana being open, you do "The Bowl" EOT of your opponents turn, always, unless it's a recursion land. Usually when you perform a lock with Bowl, you should just try and color screw them.

[Frenger]

When you play Wasteland, it's only there to destroy random recursion lands. Dust Bowl, however, does more than just destroy randomly recursion lands; it destroys Manlands in the mirror, which is absolutely brutal. Against Thresh, I slowly destroyed their Green sources while I topdecked trash for 4 turns in a row.

As for mana being open, you do "The Bowl" EOT of your opponents turn, always, unless it's a recursion land. Usually when you perform a lock with Bowl, you should just try and color screw them.

What do you mean 'recursin land'?

Why can't you just wasteland the man lands? Either wasteland + CoW/loam or wasteland + cunning wish -> extirpate solves the problem.

Running two crucibles and a wishable tutor, (as well as tolaria west to get wasteland once i have the CoW) i think wasteland does it's job just fine.

[diffy]

What do you mean 'recursin land'?

Academy Ruins (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/269.html) and Volrath's Stronghold (http://magiccards.info/sh/en/137.html) are commonly reffered to as recursion lands.



Why can't you just wasteland the man lands? Either wasteland + CoW/loam or wasteland + cunning wish -> extirpate solves the problem.


Dust Bowl is like Crucible + Wasteland in one card which is what makes it good.
The fact that Dust Bowl is slower than Wasteland is only rarely relevant because you want to develop your manabase in the early game rather than hinder your opponent's development anyway.

[Citrus-God]

Why can't you just wasteland the man lands? Either wasteland + CoW/loam or wasteland + cunning wish -> extirpate solves the problem.

Cunning Wish for Extirpate shouldn't be hitting manlands in the Landstill mirror, especially when facing down a Standstill. In fact, blinking is the worst thing you can do in that match-up. That is just an awful play right there. What you should be doing in that match-up is force your opponent to blink by using Dust Bowl to kill manlands, and then proceed to establish a superior position. In fact, by the time you found Wasteland off Tolaria West, they've probably destroyed your manlands.

[Frenger]

Cunning Wish for Extirpate shouldn't be hitting manlands in the Landstill mirror, especially when facing down a Standstill. In fact, blinking is the worst thing you can do in that match-up. That is just an awful play right there. What you should be doing in that match-up is force your opponent to blink by using Dust Bowl to kill manlands, and then proceed to establish a superior position. In fact, by the time you found Wasteland off Tolaria West, they've probably destroyed your manlands.

But still, why can't you wasteland their man land? Why is dust bowl superior to waste+crucible?

Waste crucible is a one time investment of mana (two if you fetch it) and destroys the same lands.

With dust bowl, are you supposed to have a crucible so you can just keep saccing lands and replaying them?

I'm just not seeing why it's better.

[Jaynel]

With Dust Bowl, you don't necessarily need Crucible. If you're just topdecking lands, Dust Bowl turns those useless lands into a Wastelands.

[Frenger]

With Dust Bowl, you don't necessarily need Crucible. If you're just topdecking lands, Dust Bowl turns those useless lands into a Wastelands.

Do you go to Weslyean? (fuck however you spell it) My sister goes there.

Anyways, I'm not sold. I only have one LD slot (waste vs dust bowl) as part of my toolbox for tolaria west. Usually if i get my wasteland it's because i want it, like if i already have a crucible. Alternatively, if i do rip my wasteland randomly off the top, i can fetch my crucible, or draw into one of two copies.

So, if i did get a time when i drew nothing but lands and i had no crucible but i had my waste, it would be better as a dust bowl. But at least with my build, that doesn't happen all that ofter, and the majority of the time, wasteland would be better.

[thefreakaccident]

At first I didn't like the idea of dustbowl either, but it is kind of like having a recurring wasteland without crucible, I like it.

[Citrus-God]

Do you go to Weslyean? (fuck however you spell it) My sister goes there.

Anyways, I'm not sold. I only have one LD slot (waste vs dust bowl) as part of my toolbox for tolaria west. Usually if i get my wasteland it's because i want it, like if i already have a crucible. Alternatively, if i do rip my wasteland randomly off the top, i can fetch my crucible, or draw into one of two copies.

If you're expecting the mirror, then Dust Bowl is better. If you rip Dust Bowl off the top, then you dont even need to tutor up Crucible. You'd want it at some point eventually, but a majority of the time, you'd be color screwing your opponent.


So, if i did get a time when i drew nothing but lands and i had no crucible but i had my waste, it would be better as a dust bowl. But at least with my build, that doesn't happen all that ofter, and the majority of the time, wasteland would be better.

Go ahead and run Wasteland if you feel it's better than Dust Bow. I couldn't care less if you think Wasteland is better than Dust Bowl. I'm only running Dust Bowl because it served it's task better than Wasteland in my testing, as well as DIF's. If you feel that a deck with maindeck Crucible of Worlds (which is usually used late game anyway, so I don't understand how the 3 mana matters), then stick with it. With Dust Bowl, you don't need Crucible of Worlds, but even with it, it's just there to completely lock the opponent out.

As for the Tolaria West example, you only tutor up Wasteland you're holding Crucible in hand, right? Now imagine tutoring up Dust Bowl without Crucible in hand. Recklessly saccing your own lands just to disrupt people isnt as bad as people think.

[i_need_the_extra_turns]

As your curve is actually lower than in the UWb Version, you can totally get away with cutting a land - 24 mana sources are enough with 7 ways to fix your land drops early.

A manabase along these lines should work just perfectly:

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Windswept Heath
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Tolaria West
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Dust Bowl

1 Eternal Dragon



Where is the academy ruins?

I would like to test this list with 2 ponders:

Land + Manasources [23 + 1]

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Academy Ruins
1 Wasteland
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah

1 E-Dragon

Instants [20]
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Cunning Wish
2 Ponder

sorceries [2]
2 Decree of Justice


enchantments [9]
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Standstill
2 Humility

artifacts [5]
2 Crucible of Worlds //maybe cut one here
3 Engineered Explosives



Please help me with the manabase. Should I replace nantuko or the E-dragon? Should I play tolaria west?

[diffy]

Where is the academy ruins?


Since I play a 4/2 split of Pernicious Deed and Engineered Explosives and Life from the Loam over Crucible of Worlds, there is absolutely no need for Academy Ruins.
Even if I would not be running so low on Artefacts, I would still not play Academy Ruins - the manabase is just so much more solid with only 4 colourless lands.



Please help me with the manabase. Should I replace nantuko or the E-dragon? Should I play tolaria west?

I'd cut the Nantuko Monastery: with Eternal Dragon and Decree of Justice in the deck there's no real need for more winconditions and Eternal Dragon, on the other hand, is rather important for the deck (colour-fixer, strong wincondition).

[Solpugid]

I made some slight changes to the Ubg list I was running, and I'm getting very comfortable with the deck. However, I'm having difficulty sideboarding for the matches I'm facing. What would you suggest as a good sideboard, and how would you board against the following: goblins, threshold (any splash), landstill (mostly 4c), TES, survival (with anger), and pox. Here's the list I've been working with:

4 Tarmogoyf

4 Force of will
2 Counterspell
2 Spell snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Ponder
1 Jace Beleren

4 Pernicious deed
4 Smother
2 Engineered explosives
2 Vedalken shackles

4 Polluted delta
3 Flooded strand
3 Tropical island
3 Underground sea
6 Island
4 Mishra's factory
1 Academy ruins

Thanks for the help guys.

[klaus]

Here is a light-splash progressive list that I tinkered around with today. It incorporates some recent suggestions. I also cut E.Dragons. Thoughts, suggestions?

MB:
6 Fetch
3 Tundra
1 Sea
1 Scrub
2 Tropical
1 Savannah
2 Island
1 Plains
4 Factory
1 Dustbowl
1 Nantuko Monastery
[23 - low land count partially justified by 2 Ponders]

4 Standstill
4 Counter Spell
4 FOW
4 STP
4 BS
2 Deed (don't flame this choice before giving it some thought)
2 Humility
2 Wrath of God (2 feels like the perfect number)
3 EE
2 Decree
2 Ponder (1st class mana fixer)
2 Wish
1 Grip
1 Life from the Loam
[36]

SB
4 Mage
3 Pate
1 Grip (I feel like 3 enchantment/artifact haters between SB and MB might be overkill)
1 Mortify (yeah, we considered it over at the UW-X threat - needs testing obv.)
1 Halo
1 E. Tutor
1 Pulse
1 BEB
1 Crypt
1 flex slot, possbily Fact or Fiction

[Frenger]

Klaus: What makes that list better than just UWb? You splash green for 1 deed and 1 grip main (why do you run 1 grip main?) and a grip on the side. Since you only run 1 deed and already 2 WoG you could easily just cut the deed and grip and make your manabase alot more stable.

[klaus]

Klaus: What makes that list better than just UWb? You splash green for 1 deed and 1 grip main (why do you run 1 grip main?) and a grip on the side. Since you only run 1 deed and already 2 WoG you could easily just cut the deed and grip and make your manabase alot more stable.

Edited my list.
Grip can never be random as a single ton in Landstill. It simply has too many targtes. I find myself casting Wish for Enchantment/Artifact removal most of the times. 1 Grip main is a consequence of this. Also, I never want to lose against Nought, CB or Painter.dec again, ever.

[Frenger]

Edited my list.
Grip can never be random as a single ton in Landstill. It simply has too many targtes. I find myself casting Wish for Enchantment/Artifact removal most of the times. 1 Grip main is a consequence of this. Also, I never want to lose against Nought, CB or Painter.dec again, ever.

I guess its a meta call but it seems silly to run it as a one of with no tutor for it. If you need the hate that much, mainboard more hate, not just a single unfetchable grip.

IMO that slot would be better off as a ponder because i don't like just having two and deed and EE can handle artifacts and enchantments. Again, if they're such a problem why are you running WoG instead of more deeds? Speed issues?

[klaus]

I guess its a meta call but it seems silly to run it as a one of with no tutor for it. If you need the hate that much, mainboard more hate, not just a single unfetchable grip.

IMO that slot would be better off as a ponder because i don't like just having two and deed and EE can handle artifacts and enchantments. Again, if they're such a problem why are you running WoG instead of more deeds? Speed issues?

Exactly.

[mossivo1986]

After editing this post:

I really like some of the changes der mentions and I think they should be implemented in his personal 4 c list "along with wasteland"

I think one of the major problems his list has is the mere fact that there ARE too many colorless lands. I don't EVER want 2 colorless sources in my opening hand and I don't want 2 additional lands in place of spells.

Dropping academy ruins scares me a bit as it gives you inevtiability, which is something I really really like.

Changing wasteland for dustbowl seems like it works sometimes and doesnt in others. I do like the fact that it stabilizes early landstill drops because of the lack of fear under a landstill of opposing manlands.

I do not like adding ponder into the mix, but I can see how it would work well. I think if you drop two slots for a draw spell it should be a third cunning wish and 1 more 1-2 drop removal spell, but targeted removal.

As for alternate choices I havent seen anything for unmake as opposed to slaughter pact discussion, and I'd really like to see the pros and cons. I still think slaughter pact is for the most part better, but the added STP RFG ability might actually be worth it, and also the general fact that you cant lose for not paying for it.

I am probobly going to catch some heat for mentioning the losing thing, but I do feel it deserves discussion.

Overall my problems with this deck have always been lack of advantage or tech against decks like

RDW
Dragonstompy

This is a problem as I c and maybe adding a 3rd wish might bring a little more stability in atleast the rdw matchup as it will bring the consistency up. The question is how much and is it worth it?

On second thought about the 1-2 drop removal spell, maybe it might be better as a 1 of sensei's devining top? Ill test and discuss if anyone is up for it.

For now I would really like to see a revised list from der as it looks like hes been busy correcting the landbase.

[Frenger]

The matchup that's giving me the most trouble is Aggro Loam. It's everywhere in France. I don't know how to sideboard well against it. I run 4 extirpate and 3 BEB sideboard and usually end up siding out standstill, cunning wish and 1 deed. for them.* I find wish to be too slow in this MU. Extirpate isn't even so great because i need at least two, one for wasteland and one for either loam or wish or whatever is good.

*I do agree about 4 deeds sometimes being overkill but then again there are also games where i just need two.

I recently bought a dust bowl for 50 cents and have been testing it instead of wasteland. I have to admit it exceeded my expectations greatly. I run two crucibles and it's pretty brutal. I still want to test it more because i'm not sure what i like better, but it's working out pretty well.

One change i haven't adopted is cutting Nantuko Monastery. Even with 2 decree i still find monastery to be useful.

[mossivo1986]

The matchup that's giving me the most trouble is Aggro Loam. It's everywhere in France. I don't know how to sideboard well against it. I run 4 extirpate and 3 BEB sideboard and usually end up siding out standstill, cunning wish and 1 deed. for them.* I find wish to be too slow in this MU. Extirpate isn't even so great because i need at least two, one for wasteland and one for either loam or wish or whatever is good.

Aggro loam, hm which version. In my testing aggro loam was never a problem but things could have changed obv. Extirpate wasteland? I would extirpate burning wish via counter it then pate it and extirpate loam, wasteland as a four of can cause problems but you run just as many lands as they do and honestly if your carefull and not loose all your momentum but tapping out at the wrong time I dont see this matchup as difficult at all.

Can you provide a list and prove me wrong please. Thanx.




*I do agree about 4 deeds sometimes being overkill but then again there are also games where i just need two.

I'm talking specificly about der's modified list when I say 3 deed. I always fealt in tournaments that the second or third deed was almost always dead if drawn back to back, something I do not like at all. Now drawing 2 in a game sometimes 3 is not always bad, but drawing them back to back has always hurt me almost every time.


I recently bought a dust bowl for 50 cents and have been testing it instead of wasteland. I have to admit it exceeded my expectations greatly. I run two crucibles and it's pretty brutal. I still want to test it more because i'm not sure what i like better, but it's working out pretty well.

I would say theoreticly it can be tech in longer games or games where you need to hold down a standstill and force your opponent to break it, like matchups via they have manlands, other then that I think its kind of slow and almost inferior to just running wasteland and getting random wastelocks. But who knows I could be completely wrong and im speaking out my butt. One thing if you are running green in your model you should consider switching to 1 loam 1 crucible as crucible offers you the ability to go into land mode where you can dredge and then just play your land via crucible, instead of sitting with a dead card in hand. LFTL is also great in the discard matchups because you can discard lands and then pick them up again or just get randomly lucky and have them hymn you for 2- lands and get them back, bottom line it keeps your land advantage for the exchange of 2 mana, to me thats worth it. I didn't explain that right bleh. Ill edit this in a while.


One change i haven't adopted is cutting Nantuko Monastery. Even with 2 decree i still find monastery to be useful.[/QUOTE]



Monestary IS good, but its intensive and if you are running mishras there is no reason for another manland unless your 43land.dec. more win conditions = less control elements, and 9x out of 10 the point of landstill is to pummel your opponent with control until they are left with crap, then continue to control as you slow roll them to victory, under a standstill I might add.

2 decree, 1 dragon, 3 mishras should be more then enough as your basicly mono blue control "they have 3 win cons" but you have better removal and more consistent answers to unfavorable matchups.

[Frenger]

Aggro loam, hm which version. In my testing aggro loam was never a problem but things could have changed obv. Extirpate wasteland? I would extirpate burning wish via counter it then pate it and extirpate loam, wasteland as a four of can cause problems but you run just as many lands as they do and honestly if your carefull and not loose all your momentum but tapping out at the wrong time I dont see this matchup as difficult at all.

Can you provide a list and prove me wrong please. Thanx.



Every version see's play here. The one with just Vore Crusher and goyf, then the version with those guys and mongrel, then theres a version that doesnt play crusher and plays kird ape and mongoose.

Extirpate wasteland allows you to stay alive, but then you have to extirpate burning wish/LftL in order to stop them.

I don't have lists, but just look in the aggro loam thread, theyre pretty basic.




I'm talking specificly about der's modified list when I say 3 deed. I always fealt in tournaments that the second or third deed was almost always dead if drawn back to back, something I do not like at all. Now drawing 2 in a game sometimes 3 is not always bad, but drawing them back to back has always hurt me almost every time.


I definitely aggre with you here. I do find myself shuffling the second deed away with bstorm and fetch/dragon a lot. I don't think i'll cut it yet though.




I would say theoreticly it can be tech in longer games or games where you need to hold down a standstill and force your opponent to break it, like matchups via they have manlands, other then that I think its kind of slow and almost inferior to just running wasteland and getting random wastelocks. But who knows I could be completely wrong and im speaking out my butt.


Look about a page back, I said the exact same thing. I suggest you play a few games with friends and pretend your waste was a dust bowl. The advantage of it in the late game is pretty good. It locks with crucible just like waste does, but you just need 3 mana.




One thing if you are running green in your model you should consider switching to 1 loam 1 crucible as crucible offers you the ability to go into land mode where you can dredge and then just play your land via crucible, instead of sitting with a dead card in hand. LFTL is also great in the discard matchups because you can discard lands and then pick them up again or just get randomly lucky and have them hymn you for 2- lands and get them back, bottom line it keeps your land advantage for the exchange of 2 mana, to me thats worth it. I didn't explain that right bleh. Ill edit this in a while.


Yeah what? How is what you said different than what crucible does?




Monestary IS good, but its intensive and if you are running mishras there is no reason for another manland unless your 43land.dec. more win conditions = less control elements, and 9x out of 10 the point of landstill is to pummel your opponent with control until they are left with crap, then continue to control as you slow roll them to victory, under a standstill I might add.

2 decree, 1 dragon, 3 mishras should be more then enough as your basicly mono blue control "they have 3 win cons" but you have better removal and more consistent answers to unfavorable matchups.

I like using monastery because i find that sometimes i just need a bigger creature. I find the monastery taking out blockers all the time. I especially love it when people forget he has first strike.

[mossivo1986]

Every version see's play here. The one with just Vore Crusher and goyf, then the version with those guys and mongrel, then theres a version that doesnt play crusher and plays kird ape and mongoose.

Extirpate wasteland allows you to stay alive, but then you have to extirpate burning wish/LftL in order to stop them.

I don't have lists, but just look in the aggro loam thread, theyre pretty basic.



I definitely aggre with you here. I do find myself shuffling the second deed away with bstorm and fetch/dragon a lot. I don't think i'll cut it yet though.



Look about a page back, I said the exact same thing. I suggest you play a few games with friends and pretend your waste was a dust bowl. The advantage of it in the late game is pretty good. It locks with crucible just like waste does, but you just need 3 mana.



Yeah what? How is what you said different than what crucible does?




I like using monastery because i find that sometimes i just need a bigger creature. I find the monastery taking out blockers all the time. I especially love it when people forget he has first strike.




To clear up the 1-1 split thoughts. If you have 2 crucibles playing both is absolutely not neccesary, because the second is a dead card.

Where as if you have 1 Life from the loam and 1 crucible neither are dead cards because you can dredge 3 deep into your library if needed maybe searching for another mishra's or the dustbowl, and then use crucible to play it. They have synergy together is what im saying vs 2 crucible that do not.

One thing I will say is I have crappy reasonings, but from experiance the 1-1 split is soo much better because:

*If you get both one is not a dead card.

*In matches where you need to mantain your hand size to get around hand disruption having the random 1 LFTL works more often then not. And from experiance it makes the mathup just generally easier.

Having a 1-1 split means no extirpating away your land recursion unless they are willing to spend multiple extirpates to do so.

Once again my reasonings probobly suck, but we had a discussion about this about 4 months ago in the old landstill model and der and peers convinced me to try it and i've never gone back since.

I definitely agree with you here. I do find myself shuffling the second deed away with bstorm and fetch/dragon a lot. I don't think i'll cut it yet though.




Right now I with der's list im testing taking out the landbase der purposed for another model in place of the current one im using.

Basicly I just cutt academy ruins, mishra's factory, wasteland

for dustbowl, sensei's devining top, and an additional wish. Heres what I have currently:

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [UNH] Plains
1 [UNH] Island
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [4E] Mishra's Factory
1 [B] Scrubland
1 [B] Savannah
1 [B] Tropical Island
2 [B] Underground Sea
4 [B] Tundra
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
1 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [MM] Dust Bowl

// Creatures
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
2 [TE] Humility
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [JU] Cunning Wish
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [B] Counterspell
1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 1 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 1 [RAV] Seed Spark


I would like to really like to ask people to test a 3rd with and maybe 1 top and see what they think. I feel the third wish has been everything ive wanted, and I would really like to know why not a third wish. I usually want a gaurenteed 1-2 a game, and with 2 slots your likely not going to see 1 every game.

[Frenger]

Wow, i had never thought about how LftL makes it never be a dead card as opposed to two crucibles. I really like that idea. I'm going to test a 1-1 split from now on and see how it goes.

I definitely don't want to cut academy ruins. I run one tormods crypt side (fetchable with wish->e tutor post board) and recursive crypt helps me alot with ichorid and aggro loam.

Recursive EE is also really good, but that goes without saying.

I might be missing something here, but what's the deal with the singleton top? Can you fetch it or is it just there to be good when you randomly draw it?

This is my list:

Land [25]
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Tolaria West
1 Academy Ruins
1 Dust Bowl
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Nantuko Monastery

Instants [18]
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Cunning Wish

Sorceries [3]
2 Decree of Justice
1 Life from the Loam

Creatures [1]
1 Eternal Dragon

Enchantments [10]
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Standstill
2 Humility

Artifacts [3]
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Engineered Explosives

Sideboard [15]
4 Meddling Mage
4 Extirpate
3 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Seed Spark
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Tormod's Crypt

[mossivo1986]

Wow, i had never thought about how LftL makes it never be a dead card as opposed to two crucibles. I really like that idea. I'm going to test a 1-1 split from now on and see how it goes.

I definitely don't want to cut academy ruins. I run one tormods crypt side (fetchable with wish->e tutor post board) and recursive crypt helps me alot with ichorid and aggro loam.

Recursive EE is also really good, but that goes without saying.

I might be missing something here, but what's the deal with the singleton top? Can you fetch it or is it just there to be good when you randomly draw it?

This is my list:

Land [25]
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Tolaria West
1 Academy Ruins
1 Dust Bowl
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Nantuko Monastery

Instants [18]
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Cunning Wish

Sorceries [3]
2 Decree of Justice
1 Life from the Loam

Creatures [1]
1 Eternal Dragon

Enchantments [10]
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Standstill
2 Humility

Artifacts [3]
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Engineered Explosives

Sideboard [15]
4 Meddling Mage
4 Extirpate
3 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Seed Spark
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Tormod's Crypt


The singleton top is just for random testing. So far its been decent, giving me additional answers because we don't always draw according to game plan. And it also allows you to shuffle the crap up when your top 3 look like crap via fetch. The only negative I can see is that it wouldnt be worth its weight for the cost or the consistency of the deck. But I think all it will take is that one top decked force of will or cunning wish to make me a believer.

I noticed that you have a team going. How does your team work? Are you looking for new people??

[Dark_Cynic87]

Does Raven's Crime have any place in the list? The ability to toss a land for B to make them discard without causing any card disadvantage to you (with active loam/Crux) seems a decent choice for at least some builds, doesn't it? Just curious. I'm guessing you guys have beat this one to death, just curious as to what the final say on the matter is.

Thx, and Pce,

--DC

[mossivo1986]

I have not talked about it with anyone else yet, but in my opinion no.

Reasoning: Landstill generally runs 2 land recursion cards and 80% of the time its going to be double crucible of worlds, which has 0 synergy with ravens crimes.

The other 20% of the time you get a 1-1 split with LFTL which im sure is what your argument would be as that has the absolutely best synergy; however, that said your attempting to get 1 card in the deck to influence another one card, early because thats when they fit best is early game. The answer is no.

In a deck like 43.dec if they tuned their mana base towards it or aggro loam it might be playable in, but otherwise it just doesnt work. Not only do you have to have 4 lftl in your deck but you also have to get it early for true effectiveness.

While I appreciate the thought and creativety, it just simply will not work in a deck like landstill. The goal of landstill is to mass a superior ammount of resources and mantain a tight control over everything, this doesnt do that for you.

[landstill101]

To kind of add more to mossivo, landstill needs to drop a land atleast the first 4 turns and by losing a land it could force this deck into a mana screw, now the card would be cool late game because of the extra land drawn in long games but by this time, I would rather have a counterspell. As mossivo said, maybe in aggroloam, but not landstill.

If you don't believe us, try it and tell us how it goes, maybe a tourny report will change our minds.

[mossivo1986]

To kind of add more to mossivo, landstill needs to drop a land atleast the first 4 turns and by losing a land it could force this deck into a mana screw, now the card would be cool late game because of the extra land drawn in long games but by this time, I would rather have a counterspell. As mossivo said, maybe in aggroloam, but not landstill.

If you don't believe us, try it and tell us how it goes, maybe a tourny report will change our minds.

Thanx, whenever I write on here late at night I always feel like my explanations are crappy.


On another note I have been testing sense's devining top as a one of, and I must say I am impressed. Not only has it been smoothing out my draws and giving me enough information to really keep the game in control on my side, but its acting "this may sound dumb" like a fifth brainstorm. It seems to have alot of solid synergies with the deck like topping at your opponents eot step into a large decree of juctice which you then cycle and get your top back in hand. This makes me exceedingly happy to not have to use my draw step on top! :) I also tend to use top instead of brainstorm which to me makes ALOT of sense as you procede through the game, building up your hand and not having to waste your draw spells, which generally is fantastic.

I also added a 3rd wish and ill show the list i currently am using. This is der's and wasteland's list.

Also to note that I have stopped loosing winnable matchups based on bad mana draws which to me is hella good. I hated loosing to inferior decks based on a crappy mana draw 1-5 games.

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [UNH] Plains
1 [UNH] Island
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [4E] Mishra's Factory
1 [B] Scrubland
1 [B] Savannah
1 [B] Tropical Island
2 [B] Underground Sea
4 [B] Tundra
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
1 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [MM] Dust Bowl

// Creatures
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
2 [TE] Humility
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [JU] Cunning Wish
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [B] Counterspell
1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 1 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 1 [RAV] Seed Spark


I know im not bringing innovation at all, but I think this is worth discussing as it does bring some interesting points.

Point #1
Der when you played 4c why did 2 wishes make more sense then 3?

Point #2
Has anyone tested with a random top with the 4c versions? If so how were your results.

Point #3
Does the new landbase tweaks that have been going around work for you? If not, what are the problems?

Part #4
Is cutting 2 lands that were in spell slots and instead exhanging them for utility cards like top/ and or cunning wish feasable?

[diffy]

SdT has been acting "this may sound dumb" like a fifth Brainstorm.


Brainstorm is in my opinion the single best card in the deck: it is useful in any state of the game getting lands early, permission in the midgame, solutions in the lategame and finishers when you feel like winning... that's exactly why I included Ponder after some tests which has since then turned out to be, in my opinion, the second best card in the deck. Since SdT basically is a non-blue and slightly slower Ponder, I can see nothing wrong with playing it, you should try out Ponder too though.



Point #1
Der when you played 4c why did 2 wishes make more sense then 3?


Since the list is pretty tight, the third Cunning Wish was the easiest cut: it is rather clunky and its utility rather limited since you already have an extremely good out to Artefacts and Enchantments in Pernicious Deed.
I would not go back to playing three especially since the new lists have quite some digging power assuring to have found the Wish by the midgame (i.e. when you want it).



Part #4
Is cutting 2 lands that were in spell slots and instead exchanging them for utility cards like top/ and or cunning wish feasible?

If you start including more cantrips (Ponder and/or Sensei's Divining Top), you can get away with cutting some lands, make sure that the total count of manasources (i.e. Lands + Eternal Dragons) does not hit below 23-25.

[mossivo1986]

Brainstorm is in my opinion the single best card in the deck: it is useful in any state of the game getting lands early, permission in the midgame, solutions in the lategame and finishers when you feel like winning... that's exactly why I included Ponder after some tests which has since then turned out to be, in my opinion, the second best card in the deck. Since SdT basically is a non-blue and slightly slower Ponder, I can see nothing wrong with playing it, you should try out Ponder too though.



Since the list is pretty tight, the third Cunning Wish was the easiest cut: it is rather clunky and its utility rather limited since you already have an extremely good out to Artefacts and Enchantments in Pernicious Deed.
I would not go back to playing three especially since the new lists have quite some digging power assuring to have found the Wish by the midgame (i.e. when you want it).



If you start including more cantrips (Ponder and/or Sensei's Divining Top), you can get away with cutting some lands, make sure that the total count of manasources (i.e. Lands + Eternal Dragons) does not hit below 23-25.


I'll try ponder.

I am still in love with a 1 of top in the deck, but I wont be partial towards top in the testing as to give your idea a fair shot.

The dust bowl thing has been worth it every time I hit it. Even though im paying the extra mana its still been worth it even when I hit crucible or LFTL, which actually astonishes me how much control the card has over the game state.

BTW in case you haven't seen yet, I really really like the mana base alot more now. 25 lands always seemed to get me flooded with colorless lands, and smoothing out the base with 3 fac's deffinately improved things.

I miss my academy ruins though I must say as both a lock of EE every turn or just saying ill pitch crucible now and get it later kind of a thing, or even just ee when you have no cards in your library every turn to keep you in the game </3 academy ruins I miss you!!

[Frenger]

I miss my academy ruins though I must say as both a lock of EE every turn or just saying ill pitch crucible now and get it later kind of a thing, or even just ee when you have no cards in your library every turn to keep you in the game </3 academy ruins I miss you!!

You should try to fit it back in there. I find myself more happy with Academy + Tormods Crypt lock vs Aggro Loam and Ichorid and have been considering going up to 3 in the side for just this purpose. Right now i have just one in the side.

I'm interested in trying SDT in this deck, but i really have no idea what i should cut. Perhaps a land since i run 25 + dragon.

[klaus]

I'm interested in trying SDT in this deck, but i really have no idea what i should cut. Perhaps a land since i run 25 + dragon.

Definitely go for a land!
I've been testing 2 Ponder in my UWb version and came to like them a lot.
They should be even better in the 4CCtypes cause they are really efficient mana fixers.

[mossivo1986]

Definitely go for a land!
I've been testing 2 Ponder in my UWb version and came to like them a lot.
They should be even better in the 4CCtypes cause they are really efficient mana fixers.

But thats my argument for sdt.

sdt is actually a mini mini lftl and a mini brainstorm all in one. It actually gives you hand preservation if you play it correctly. It also combines with life from the loam.

I dunno, I could be dead wrong, but I deffinately need to dest with der on this one. Ill be on all day today if anyone wants to contact me feel free to

im Joel Ferris on mws and my msn is Moss_Boss@live.com

feel free.

[Frenger]

How does just one top work out though? I kind of feel like if i run it i might as well run 3.

[mossivo1986]

How does just one top work out though? I kind of feel like if i run it i might as well run 3.

Its kind of the same position you put yourself in as running 2 humility or 2 decree or a 1-1 split between crucible and or life from the loam. You hope you see one every game, but its not going to break you if you do or don't.

Sensei's devining top is also a great way to search for your win conditions via fetch look fetch look, at the price of a life and a mana you find a decree, tolaria west, 1-3 mishra's factory.

Also remember that if you have your humility and you dont want to drop a standstill, cunning wish- enlightened tutor- sensei's devining top isn't exactly a bad play.

I dunno, I am personally a believe as it can give you that extra force of will or blue card without wasting your brainstorm to look for it, I just like it. It feels right. But im going to test the ponder version for now on mws and revert back to the top version and see the comparisons first hand.

I honestly feel like id rather have a 3rd cunning wish then a 4th deed, more of the time. Does anyone else feel this way?

[Frenger]

I honestly feel like id rather have a 3rd cunning wish then a 4th deed, more of the time. Does anyone else feel this way?

I think i would rather have 3 EE/3 Deed if i was going to cut a deed.

I don't think i would go to 3 cunning wish. It's too slow in a lot of MU's.

Also, has anyone else noticed that LftL + Tolaria West is nuts. It costs alot of mana, but you can do SO much more by being able to cast tolaria west twice (or more).

[thefreakaccident]

I think i would rather have 3 EE/3 Deed if i was going to cut a deed.

I don't think i would go to 3 cunning wish. It's too slow in a lot of MU's.

Also, has anyone else noticed that LftL + Tolaria West is nuts. It costs alot of mana, but you can do SO much more by being able to cast tolaria west twice (or more).

It is nuts, especially if you have gained control.. being able to tutor for multiple factories over the span of a couple turns is huge sometimes.

[mossivo1986]

My favorite play for this deck is when you land a standstill and the next turn you see a tolaria west of the top, your opponent doesnt want to break the standstill for obvious reasons, and instead of getting all their creature removal pointed at your mishras factory forcing them to break the standstill, better yet slow rolling them with dustbowl is much much more fun, then killing with mishra's factory, or they scoop. Either way you win and its incredibly funny to watch them squirm at every land you pop.

[3duece]

I recently went 4 color with my U/W/b list and I was wondering if you guys had any suggestions as far general build, cards or concepts I might be missing, as well as how to play correctly against dragonstompy.
4 standstill
4 brainstorm
2 ponder
4 counterspell
4 force of will

4 swords to plowhares
2 wrath of god
2 humility
2 decree of justice
2 pernicious deed
1 life from the loam

3 engineered explosives
1 crucible of worlds

4 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
4 tundra
1 underground sea
1 scrubland
2 tropical island
1 savanna
4 mishra's factory
1 academy ruins
1 dust bowl
2 island
2 plains

[mossivo1986]

I recently went 4 color with my U/W/b list and I was wondering if you guys had any suggestions as far general build, cards or concepts I might be missing, as well as how to play correctly against dragonstompy.
4 standstill
4 brainstorm
2 ponder
4 counterspell
4 force of will

4 swords to plowhares
2 wrath of god
2 humility
2 decree of justice
2 pernicious deed
1 life from the loam

3 engineered explosives
1 crucible of worlds

4 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
4 tundra
1 underground sea
1 scrubland
2 tropical island
1 savanna
4 mishra's factory
1 academy ruins
1 dust bowl
2 island
2 plains


2 deed is not enough perioud. if your going to go 4 color you mine as well exploit atleast 3 deed out of it, most decks run 4. You have no real draw power other then standstill, which saddens my heart. Either FOF or Cunning wish is the way to go, and honestly I used to go wish into FOF for shear sexiness factor.
Also academy ruins has been cutt from recent models and ders model which is who I look after for most of the tech I use "it should be called Der_Still, or Der me a landstill."

that would be awesome.

anyways der's lists have been moving down to 3 mishra's and 1 tolaria west with 1 dustbowl for the unique lands.

If you wanted a better matchup against d stompy why would you pick the most one sided matchup for dragon stompys favor?

you need cunning wish if you want a more favorable d stompy matchup. Its virtually unwinnable via post board, but if you can stop the blood moons your chances at winning go dramaticly up. Also if you stick a humility that should be gg as well minus getting wrecked by sofi

Personally I dread that matchup unless I get a decent starting hand against them and their first play isnt challace for 1

either way, let me know what you think ttyl .

[3duece]

Okay. I cut the academy ruins for a 3rd deed, bringing me to 24 lands which should be fine with 4 brainstorm and 2 ponder. Im not sure how to fix the card drawing issue but I think standtill might be enough physical card advantage for the deck. I really dislike the wish route. It broke my heart to cut fact or fiction for ponder but its actually running nicely and I'm not missing it. Now my issue is that I seem to almost be running too much creature control, although I'm thinking that's not a bad thing.
4 stp
3 deed
3 explosives
2 wrath
2 humility

It seems like alot but I guess its diverse and none of it is ever really dead. I'll stick with it for a bit and see how I like it.

[klaus]

Okay. I cut the academy ruins for a 3rd deed, bringing me to 24 lands which should be fine with 4 brainstorm and 2 ponder. Im not sure how to fix the card drawing issue but I think standtill might be enough physical card advantage for the deck. I really dislike the wish route. It broke my heart to cut fact or fiction for ponder but its actually running nicely and I'm not missing it. Now my issue is that I seem to almost be running too much creature control, although I'm thinking that's not a bad thing.
4 stp
3 deed
3 explosives
2 wrath
2 humility

It seems like alot but I guess its diverse and none of it is ever really dead. I'll stick with it for a bit and see how I like it.

LS' setup is pretty straight forward:

- G1: destroy creature deck-/-fight against combo.
- G2/3: continue destroying that creature deck-/-destroy combo
- take trophy

------------------
I could see EE as a 2of though - esp. without A. Ruins

[Frenger]

Is wrath even worth it in your list? You have deed and EE (and to a lesser extent humility). I would rather cut the wraths in favor of another deed and something else.

[i_need_the_extra_turns]

I recently went 4 color with my U/W/b list and I was wondering if you guys had any suggestions as far general build, cards or concepts I might be missing, as well as how to play correctly against dragonstompy.
4 standstill
4 brainstorm
2 ponder
4 counterspell
4 force of will

4 swords to plowhares
2 wrath of god
2 humility
2 decree of justice
2 pernicious deed
1 life from the loam

3 engineered explosives
1 crucible of worlds

4 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
4 tundra
1 underground sea
1 scrubland
2 tropical island
1 savanna
4 mishra's factory
1 academy ruins
1 dust bowl
2 island
2 plains

I would cut 2 wrath and -1 Plains for 1 deed and 2 cunning wish. And -1 tundra for a u-sea.
I cant see why people are playing wrath in 4c. You play 4c only for deed, otherwise stick with the 3c version.

For reference, this is my list:
Land + Manasources [23 + 1]

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Academy Ruins
1 Dust Bowl
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah

1 E-Dragon

Instants [20]
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Cunning Wish
2 Ponder

sorceries [2]
2 Decree of Justice


enchantments [9]
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Standstill
2 Humility

artifacts [5]
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Engineered Explosives


The deck just works perfect. Including ponder is the right way to go with this deck.

[mossivo1986]

I would cut 2 wrath and -1 Plains for 1 deed and 2 cunning wish. And -1 tundra for a u-sea.
I cant see why people are playing wrath in 4c. You play 4c only for deed, otherwise stick with the 3c version.

For reference, this is my list:
Land + Manasources [23 + 1]

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Academy Ruins
1 Dust Bowl
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah

1 E-Dragon

Instants [20]
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Cunning Wish
2 Ponder

sorceries [2]
2 Decree of Justice


enchantments [9]
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Standstill
2 Humility

artifacts [5]
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Engineered Explosives


The deck just works perfect. Including ponder is the right way to go with this deck.

So since its been talked about the last couple of days ill ask you: Why arn't you doing the 1-1 split with LFTL and Crucible?

Also your mana base seems like the more traditional version that was used a while back and it has serious issues with getting that second colorless land "imo which is teh sucks early game when you cant get a second or third color rolling, and don't even consider a fourth color unless your mana flooded"

But other then that I like your list. It seems like you made the right cuts, and honestly Im scared to test the version I play without 4 deed, but I still think 3 should be enough.

Kaus:
LS' setup is pretty straight forward:

- G1: destroy creature deck-/-fight against combo.
- G2/3: continue destroying that creature deck-/-destroy combo
- take trophy
you got it mostly right.
its more like this:
G1: Minus a nuclear implosion in your deck happening beat:
Agrro
Aggro Control
Control
G2:
Beat Combo
and have an even better game against control

G3: there should be no game 3, this deck doesn't play quite that fast so either win in 2 or tie, there are no Exceptions. By this time in the round of 8 you should either be

a. celebrating your glorious victory with your 3 fangirlz from the local book store.

b. killing yourself because your a subpar pilot.

c. Killing the dragon stompy player as well as all the idiots he beat to get into the round of 8.

Either way you should be fine.
And with that said, we move on.

[i_need_the_extra_turns]

[QUOTE=mossivo1986;270664]So since its been talked about the last couple of days ill ask you: Why arn't you doing the 1-1 split with LFTL and Crucible?

Also your mana base seems like the more traditional version that was used a while back and it has serious issues with getting that second colorless land "imo which is teh sucks early game when you cant get a second or third color rolling, and don't even consider a fourth color unless your mana flooded"

But other then that I like your list. It seems like you made the right cuts, and honestly Im scared to test the version I play without 4 deed, but I still think 3 should be enough.
[\quote]

I dont make the loam split, because its a meta game choice. In my meta there are many landstill and land.dec types and the CoW just rules in these matchups. Sometimes I want to add a tolaria west or a 2nd wasteland, there is just no free slot.


The manabase is quite solid, ponder helps here. I tested the List in a small local tournament. I went for the third place, 3-1.

First match was vs mono red gobbos.
I lost the first game because I didnt mulligan a hand with only one land and a ponder and didnt see a 2nd land for the next turns.
The 2nd game I got two swords for his early lackey's but his vial's wrecked me. At some point I was flooded and didnt see any hate and he had just an insane draw - but that can happen.
0-2

The second match was the mirror vs 3c LS.
I won both games. The deed's are here very strong.
2-0

The third match was vs 4c thresh with balance, no wastelands/stifles ->nice matchup.
He hold a very bad hand vs LS, less creatures but 2 swords. He got an early balance without sensei but no pressure on the board. I used my card advantage and the game ends, when humility entered the board.

The 2nd game was even easier. I got a ridiculous draw with 3 standstills, extirpates his goyfs and grips and went for the win.

The last match was vs something GBr Loam control with deed, worm harvest and chalice, no goyf.

The first game took nearly 40min. I couldnt counter a 2nd turn burning wish for loam, but could stabalize via crucible. I found then the wish for extirpate on loam and the humility. He began to make worm tokens with worm harvest, which I blow up or counter. I found the second wish and removed his worm harvest. I got a mishra, but he got this land, producing B and give a creature -2/-2. The time ran out and he got no win options and I only have to top deck a second mishra or a decree and he concedes.

For the 2nd game we just hadnt enough time, so he scoops.

[fredk]

...Therefore, I switched over to a Ubg list and realized how awesome it is to not have to run stifle.

I'm a bit of a landstill noob, so forgive me if the answer to this question is obvious, but I've been running a 4 color list to great success over the past few months without ever having included stifle in it. Why do you have to run it?

Thanks,
fredk

edit: On further reflection, for wasteland i take it? Not big in the meta here.

[mossivo1986]

I'm a bit of a landstill noob, so forgive me if the answer to this question is obvious, but I've been running a 4 color list to great success over the past few months without ever having included stifle in it. Why do you have to run it?

Thanks,
fredk

edit: On further reflection, for wasteland i take it? Not big in the meta here.

Ok so to answer your question first. Traditionally the 3 and four color builds have been weakest to Land based decks that win via Life from the loam- wasteland combo, or a blood moon/ Magus of the moon.

Now stifle would be for the decks that are more aggro oriented and focus on that wasteland being a killer for the short game, where loosing a land can be vital for the aggro deck to win. So by keeping you on turn x they can just annihalate you turn after turn.

That said Landstill has gotten alot more aggresive in the earlier turns recently to combat this shenanigan type of play while still mantaining its brilliance in the mid- late game.

The simple idea is this: outlast your opponents aggressive attrition and then beat them down with card advantage and slow rollers like mishra's factory or decree of justice tokens.

Any landstill deck can still win by the late mid game, but it takes a bad rap of plays or poor mulliganing by the opponent.

I just explained more then I wanted to, but I figured it was time to say that.

Now on to what I was going to say. I recently brought 4c_wish_still up to one of my friends who is sort of a semi pro or w/e and he gave me this advice.

http://www.clemslansing.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1527

Hes a really solid player and though I don't hold his image as a player on a pedastol I do like his calls alot of times on card choices.

[fredk]

Ok so to answer your question first. Traditionally the 3 and four color builds have been weakest to Land based decks that win via Life from the loam- wasteland combo, or a blood moon/ Magus of the moon.

Now stifle would be for the decks that are more aggro oriented and focus on that wasteland being a killer for the short game, where losing a land can be vital for the aggro deck to win. So by keeping you on turn x they can just annihalate you turn after turn.


Thanks for the information - my one problem match up of late has been aggro-loam so it helps a bit.

[mossivo1986]

Thanks for the information - my one problem match up of late has been aggro-loam so it helps a bit.

Aggro loam is a very tough match if you don't open up with a strong hand pre board. Post board its not nearly as tough but you still need to focus.

Depending on which model of loam your facing dictates your play.

If im playing aggro loam the first thing I want to stop is the tempo play. whichever direction they choose to go is the direction I stop first, and before they can switch over to the other I plug that gap. Aggro loam to me seems to have this tendancy to kind of stop playing the game if they don't get the initial 1-2 combination on landstill.

Key plays that ive seen and used:

*Extirpate LFTL and counter any crucible. Stop the land recursion not the wastelands.

*Humility needs to get online asap.

Counter anything that starts with a Bur and ends with an ish.

Other then that you should be fine if you play smart. Now different models use different tech to get around you, but its deffinately not unwinnable and if you use your life total and lands like you should youll be fine.

Now obviously every matchup your going to play isnt going to go smooth and granted I loose more matchups pre board because

a: I didn't know my opponents deck and it was a weak matchup for me.
b: I knew the matchup but I couldn't stop the bleeding.

Just remember this, you stop the bleeding and make sure they don't get a random wish and your set.

Now I have been testing the 5c version of loam control that Der put together. Im not terribly fond of it yet, but I can see im making play mistakes and I obviously have to get used to his model.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------

oh and btw how does ponder help against your bad matchups? It consistently gets you a 6 brainstorm, but against d stompy that isnt an answer and a t1 challice just says ouch.

[mossivo1986]

I think from now on im going to keep track of all my tournaments with reports including mini tourneys to make sure im not going and making the same mistakes. To start off with ill write the report last night on a mini I did @magic-League.

For referance here are the decklists:
http://magic-league.com/tournament/info.php?id=45366&view=decks

So to start off with Ive been meaning to do some more serious testing of the current list I am using at the moment. Mws pubs don't count as you never know what skill level your opponent is going to play at and if he is going to make the right decisions or not. To truly see if the additions are going to work or not I was going to have to play some semi-decent players with ok decklists. I got on magic-league last night for the first time in several months and noticed an online tournament for legacy, decided to join up and play for a bit. In the meantime I talked to the judges about certain card interactions that made life more difficult and shortly my round was ready.

Round 1: 4C_Wish_Still vs: mono U Stasis

Game1: Falcon505 or whatever his name was seemed to have the deck in working order and before the game he said in the lobby he was going to piss someone off alot with his deck. Me thinking he was playing painters servent or some cheeze deck was like ok? I win the toss and lead with a windswept heath into trop eot brainstorm. He just kept laying islands and then a nev disk, I let disk resolve as theres nothing he can do any harm to and continue to build up. The next round he casts stasis and I go for the counterspell "the only counter in hand" and he forbids it? I let it resolve and literally 37 cards later of draw go I make my move when I see my oppritunity: aka a second ee. The first one I didnt have enough to deal with. I cast ee for two with 6 lands untapped and two fetches just sitting there. He plays forbid, I cast force, he plays forbid, I cast force, he plays counterspell, I play counterspell. He seeing my two fetches assumes im going to blow stasis at the end of his turn so moving to his upkeep he sacs it, I respond with wish with no counter back up, he says ok I grab pate and nab stasis, he sacs his nev disk and casts feldons cain and then passes passes, I responded to disk by drawing with top Next turn im down to like 9 cards in library untap draw pass, his eot step cycle decree for 9, he was at 20.
draw swing pass, he untaps draws, passes, he has like a 1-23 shot at drawing an answer and disk wont do it. I ended up finishing him off with the tokens.


Out:
2 [TE] Humility
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
1 [OD] Standstill
2 Cunning wish

In:

SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 1 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [RAV] Seed Spark

G2:
Much much quicker. I get him into a position where im putting pressure on with mishra's factory and have counter mana open with a force in hand. Note: He Dazed my sensei's devining top. :) He quickly finds himself in a position where he isn't drawing stasis and so he has no way to defend himself because he didn't design his deck to deal with not having a stasis. Without it he loses, theres just no way to stop the opponent minus nev disking them every other turn via academy ruins. Either way this game got out of hand as I extirpated his counterspell with one still in hand and made sure the pressure was kept on. His main win condition is to howling mine the opponent out which is a horrid idea to try to do against landstill. Either way he gets down to about 8 and calls gg. I had too much counter backup with pate in hand, and i would have come up on 1-4 meddling mages sooner or later. He says hes going for chinese and tell him im severely jealous "moves to go get some raemon noodles.

Round 2: bye :(
I really don't like bye's in magic-league. They make you wait around for 45 minutes and lose focus.

Round 3: Finals 4C_Wish_Still vs UGR Thresh

I was soaking up the information in this matchup and I think thats what allowed me to win. I put my plan on "dead slow" and basicly just slow rolled his entire hand. Once I did that and new what his hand was via extirpating force of will I cast humility, effecting a mongoose and a goyf in the following turns. He got me down to about six when I cunning wish'd for pulse, he responds by lightning bolting my face down to 3, me not fearing him as he has one card in hand and I have the counterspell say sure and he lets me pulse out of that bad situation. On my turn I pulse one more time just to make sure im out of the danger zone making sure to stay out of daze range and keep my top active on a turnly basis. Top really showed its worth in this matchup as even though he had a top as well I was able to simply spin mine more and grab the utility spells I needed in order to win. Humility mixed with pulse however won me the game and the first time out of the gates I deeded his count them 2 pithing needles away and swung for four. He conceits realizing the only thing he can do is burn my mishras but he has no answer other then that.

No sb changes: I fealt like the pre board was just fine to handle krosan grip and any added hate he brought in, maybe red elemental blast? I have no idea. I probobly should have sided in extirpates, but if I did that I would want to keep cunning wish in as a bate counter. How awesome would that be to jedi mind trick them into forcing it then extirpating the force!

Either way He mulligans down to 6 and then plays volcanic island "not a good sign." Turns out he was stuck on 2 lands and a lot of spells that were just not castable on 2 mana.

I kept a hand of 2 fetches mishras deed and count em triple counterspell. :)
I restricted his drawing via counterspells and countered his goyf, trying to make him either :force my counter or loose his early domination of the early game.

I end up getting dust bowl out, which was good but not nearly as good as wasteland would have been. However I will say the one thing I like doing is sacing your fetches to dustbowl, it just feels good inside to sac junk!

so I slow roll him with saproling tokens via seed spark and two soldier tokens via decree and a mishra's.

He played a gg but I think he made a couple of mistakes in his decision making abilities.

Either way I won and ive pretty much cemented my 1 of sensei's belief in the deck. Also note there was a time in the threshhold matchup game 1 when I wished for tutor and went for top as opposed to standstill knowing he had a stifle in hand and I couldnt bate it out. The third wish also was really really usefull as I never ran out of answers and it hit at all the right times.

[diffy]

Also note there was a time in the Threshold matchup game 1 when I wished for tutor and went for top as opposed to standstill knowing he had a stifle in hand and I couldn't bait it out.


Stifle doesn't do anything against Standstill as Standstill is not sacrificed until its trigger has resolved and will therefore just trigger again for the Stifle being played.



The third wish also was really really useful as I never ran out of answers and it hit at all the right times.

Did you never have problems with the deck being too clunky? I can see how you didn't face any matchup where speed really matters but I can't see 24 manasources working in a top-heavy build without Ponders.

Regarding your build: I'm currently a fan of cutting down on the Permission-Suite in any deck playing Pernicious Deed: you just don't need to counter a lot because there's so little that you can't handle otherwise if you have access to such a radical sweeper. This implies that you just don't need to pack the full 8 Counterspells if you play 4c Landstill which is always a good thing as Counerspells are worse topdecks than a business spell and/or removal as they don't directly influence the board state. I'd cut any number of Counterspells (probably 1-2) for more dig and/or tutoring power.
By adding more business to your deck you have the added benefit of being able to cut down on some of your more clunky cards as you have a general better access to your solutions. The weakest link in the deck is, in my opinion, Cunning Wish: he's just terribly mana-intensive and doesn't really hold its weight against most of the metagame. I still support the fact that you should be playing Cunning Wish (because he improves your bad matchups) but I have never looked back on the decision to cut them down to two while adding in more dig as you maintain a good access to it (you really only need to resolve one against Loam and/or Survival) while improving all those matchups where the Wish is just a mere expensive Enlightened Tutor/Disenchant/Dark Banishing.
In you list, I'd just cut a Cunning Wish and a Counterspell for two Ponders.

Also, do try to include the second Eternal Dragon. I have come to appreciate it more and more lately: it is better than Decree of Justice in the early game (advancing the gamestate for 2 mana rather than just 'not clogging the hand' for 3 mana) and still very powerful in the lategame where it finishes games just as fast and/or creates card advantage (acting as a pseudo-Crucible of Worlds) if you expect the opponent to any way to get rid of it permanently.
Also, and this is very important, by playing Eternal Dragon you increase the amount of winconditions you play. While this might seem obvious, it is extremely important. Let me emphasize on this just once.
Due to the nature of Legacys' huge card pool, in the long run, your opponent will draw something that completely screws you over, even if you are in complete control of the game (i.e. the opponent has no cards in hand and no relevant permanents on the board). This can either be a Krosan Grip for the Humility you've been hiding behind, followed by an efficient beater protected by Permission of any sorts, something that just creates more card advantage than you can handle (Life from the Loam, Survival of the Fittest and Intuition come to mind), or something that you just didn't expect and therefore screws you over even the worse (this can be anything ranging from a random thing like a Planeswalker to an unconventional card-choice [e.g. a Moon effect you didn't see coming at all]). If there's a time to get out a J.N. Keynes quote in a geek-context, this is it: "In the long run, we're all dead".
While this dilemma could be applied to any control deck there has ever been, I think that it is even more true for Landstill in Legacy as the deck is attackable from a number of diferent angles (meaning that your opponent definitively will have some hate) and because the cards available have a very high powerlevel (meaning that you can just alpha-strike out of a situation that seemed unwinable as you only have to protect your wincondition for one or two turns). While above obviously is somewhat exaggerated for the sake of the argument, my and my development/test-partners' recent results seem to cement the claim.
There is one easy way to avoid this scenario: just finish the game quickly after seizing control. It is this ability to finish a game before letting the opponent slip out of your iron grip on the game that makes decks like Tarmotog (the more controlling lists) conceptually better than ITF although they have a similar core: you don't need to be a hardcore control deck, you just have to be able to control the game until a certain point from where you'll just proceed to win. The earlier this point, the better.
Well then I guess the solution is to play more winconditions? This again is not as obvious and easy as it seems as you have to find the right balance between aggressive and controlling options. Finding this balance is made even harder in decks like Landstill which is just too fragile a deck to afford to play (m)any internal dis-synergies and/or cards that might be dead on some occasions (this design-flaw in Landstill has, amongst others, also been a reason for my discontent with the deck as of late). This is where the circle closes and Eternal Dragon comes back in as he helps you to seize control (by assuring land drops early) while also being a good wincondition.
As for tangible advice to implement the Dragon, you can probably cut a Life from the Loam or Crucible of Worlds (whichever you like the least) for it as they fulfil somewhat similar roles (fixing mana) with the Dragon being dead less often (there are just too many occasions in which Crucible is just a 3mana: do nothing card) and more versatile (as mentioned above).

[mossivo1986]

From reading your post I agree with cuttting dragon for crucible, it often is only grabbing me lands in the midgame and doing nothing for me as a real phenominal win condition. Only 1-x games does it actually help where im either already winning or mishra's factory beat down is inevitable with it. That said it feels kind of tough to switch crucible out, I don't exactly know why. Often times it feels like a jedi mind trick play to get them to counter it, or something less usefull. LFTL has been infinately better at that slot. I can say however that a second dragon is better for the slot, but probobly not the win condition im looking more for. I guess its those games where you have a 12 mana 1/1 where it really outshines itself for me. :).

Best play ever for the deck though is where you take your 12 mana 1.1 swing before blockers blow your deed for four mana and have your 7 mana 5/5 ftw. Thats really the single funniest play for me.

As for cutting the wish, I don't feel its as top heavy for me as you think it is. Yes paying the extra mana is very much not neccesary, but you remember when we used FOF as a wish target and how bad it was to cast. I also know that seeing cunning wish always seems like the right play either as a bate cad post board or as an answer to LFTL.

I don't see how having 2 wishes in the mainboard gets you one early enough to answer a relavent card for Loam.

I would like to see you either test with me your 5c loam against the 4c wish still with the third wish and the top. I think youll be suprised.

As for random top decking again your probobly right, but when I am beat by random top deck it is usually a price of progress rather then a plainswalker or random big untouchable creature, So if I were going to fix anything id improve the number of basics in the deck, to increase the consistency of te decks single worst matchups aka moonthresh and d-stompy.

That said though I probobly wouldn't change the base because its really quite fine now. Plus the additions of more basic lands means less consistency in the colors "which nobody wants" and your basicly reverting into 3color LS which already has a Very consistent mana base.

Also, I would not cutt counterspell in this list even though as you said its less of a business spell in the mid-late game. Then your sacrificing your combo and control matchups for a little more aggro consistency and it's supposed to be a middle of the road deck that has problems finishing early, but has almost inevitability in the late game.

[mossivo1986]

We need to talk about dreadstill and figure this out, becuase I honestly couldn't figure out how to feel their window of oppritunity. That deck is just mean from what I can see and I havent found an opening to hurt them.

[Citrus-God]

We need to talk about dreadstill and figure this out, becuase I honestly couldn't figure out how to feel their window of oppritunity. That deck is just mean from what I can see and I havent found an opening to hurt them.

Or you can like, you know, start running Krosan Grip?

[mossivo1986]

Or you can like, you know, start running Krosan Grip?

Care to expand on that?

[Citrus-God]

Care to expand on that?


Because Grip will get around Counterbalance, Spell Snare, FoW, and other things. Grips can hit Dreadnaughts or Counterbalance. So not only does it dismantle card advantage engines, it also hits Dreadnaughts as well. Judging from the primary lists, I think the reason why you lose against it consistently are the Stifle-effects when you activate Deed to stay alive. Krosan Grips would just be much easier to cast and should get around Stifle effects obviously, but that's if they want to risk it and hit your fetch so you can land a Deed. Holding Green sources in your hand can also mislead your opponent as well.

As for the added benefit to Krosan Grip, now you have a weapon against Painter's Stone.

[mossivo1986]

considering

x2 krosan grip over

1 EP
1 Seed spark

[Frenger]

moss: I looked at your sideboard from that link you posted.

1 Slaughter Pact
3 Extirpate
1 Pulse of the Fields
3 Engineered Plague
4 Meddling Mage
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Hydroblast
1 Seed Spark

Do you have a lot of goblins in your meta? I would rather cut -2 EP and add 2 Hydroblast, since it's good against aggro loam, and still alright against goblins. You could leave in one to side in and then ET for, but i would consider cutting it entirely either for a tormods crypt (fetchable and reoccurable ichorid and loam hate) or if you please Krosan Grips.

I also dropped Slaughter Pact a while ago, DiF explained why it wasnt good a while back i think.

Also you could cut seed spark for a grip if you think it's better than spark, but i rarely find times when either i need to grip for the win but just have three mana, or i need split second. I'd rather have the two saps.

[mossivo1986]

moss: I looked at your sideboard from that link you posted.

1 Slaughter Pact
3 Extirpate
1 Pulse of the Fields
3 Engineered Plague
4 Meddling Mage
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Hydroblast
1 Seed Spark

Do you have a lot of goblins in your meta? I would rather cut -2 EP and add 2 Hydroblast, since it's good against aggro loam, and still alright against goblins. You could leave in one to side in and then ET for, but i would consider cutting it entirely either for a tormods crypt (fetchable and reoccurable ichorid and loam hate) or if you please Krosan Grips.

I also dropped Slaughter Pact a while ago, DiF explained why it wasnt good a while back i think.

Also you could cut seed spark for a grip if you think it's better than spark, but i rarely find times when either i need to grip for the win but just have three mana, or i need split second. I'd rather have the two saps.

I would rather not add cut 2 plague. 1 is duable because goblins is semi ok matchup without them but its rediculous with it. cutting one still ensures your probobly either going to draw one or wish for one.

I am starting to really believe in 2 grips in the side. I think its the right call as there is alot of nastiness in the meta right now. I would not add in crypt as I do not have ruins in the deck and you dont really need it. To give you an idea of where I stand on crypt i would rather have eternall witness then have crypt.

If you are honestly having problems with loam and ichorid try siding in:

3 EP
4 Meddling mage
3 extirpates

then youll see that matchup gets dramaticly better.

[Frenger]

I would rather not add cut 2 plague. 1 is duable because goblins is semi ok matchup without them but its rediculous with it. cutting one still ensures your probobly either going to draw one or wish for one.

I am starting to really believe in 2 grips in the side. I think its the right call as there is alot of nastiness in the meta right now. I would not add in crypt as I do not have ruins in the deck and you dont really need it. To give you an idea of where I stand on crypt i would rather have eternall witness then have crypt.

If you are honestly having problems with loam and ichorid try siding in:

3 EP
4 Meddling mage
3 extirpates

then youll see that matchup gets dramaticly better.

What does EP do against loam? I side in 4 extirpates, 3 meddling mages, and 3 BEB. I don't own a 4th mage since they're 15-20 euros here, i decided fuck it.

I find you need 4 extirpates in the matchup because if they get a good draw you'll need at least two to first hit wasteland, then hit either loam, wish, or a creature depending on the game state.

Ichorid i don't side in EP against either, because humility does the job way better and hits everything, tokens, ichorid, narcos, etc

I do run one EP side, but i'm considering cutting it. My reasoning behind it was that i could side it in and then use cunning wish --> ET to find it when i needed it. However that is so slow, and the matches where you need it you need it fast. I don't know what faster goblins hate there is, since i can't dedicate more than one slot. (Note: 3 BEB's are useful against goblins as well as loam)

[mossivo1986]

What does EP do against loam? I side in 4 extirpates, 3 meddling mages, and 3 BEB. I don't own a 4th mage since they're 15-20 euros here, i decided fuck it.

I find you need 4 extirpates in the matchup because if they get a good draw you'll need at least two to first hit wasteland, then hit either loam, wish, or a creature depending on the game state.

Ichorid i don't side in EP against either, because humility does the job way better and hits everything, tokens, ichorid, narcos, etc

I do run one EP side, but i'm considering cutting it. My reasoning behind it was that i could side it in and then use cunning wish --> ET to find it when i needed it. However that is so slow, and the matches where you need it you need it fast. I don't know what faster goblins hate there is, since i can't dedicate more than one slot. (Note: 3 BEB's are useful against goblins as well as loam)


This is to my former post. I'm a total nub. Correcting myself I was talking about siding for the ichorid matchup. I guess for loam it would deffinately depend on what im seeing from the loam player.

I have never found loam impossible to beat and I guess part of that is timing and a little luck. If you see aggro loam I'm not so sure meddling mage is the correct answer, thats something you'd have to talk to sideboarding god Der about.

As for a more control loam I would deffinately play meddling mage and side out something along the lines of 4 swords, 3 wishes for:
3 pate, 4 meddling.

[klaus]

This is to my former post. I'm a total nub. Correcting myself I was talking about siding for the ichorid matchup. I guess for loam it would deffinately depend on what im seeing from the loam player.

I have never found loam impossible to beat and I guess part of that is timing and a little luck. If you see aggro loam I'm not so sure meddling mage is the correct answer, thats something you'd have to talk to sideboarding god Der about.

As for a more control loam I would deffinately play meddling mage and side out something along the lines of 4 swords, 3 wishes for:
3 pate, 4 meddling.

Controlish Loam tends to rely even more on the namesake engine, which is why BEB should find its way into the MB G2/3 to stop Burning Wish, Assault etc..

[mossivo1986]

I dunno man, Its not worth siding in beb against maybe 2 matchups 1 of them being burn which you lose anyways and 2 being loam control.

I think thats the reason you have meddling mage and pate, mage stops wish, or counterspell or force. you also have your own wish for krosan grip :). I just dont see loam control as that big of a threat. Its never been amazing in the matchups ive played it or played against it although I could be absolutely dead wrong.

[mossivo1986]

What do you guys think of this?

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=78482&d=1220889344

[fredk]

What do you guys think of this?

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=78482&d=1220889344

Well, it plays nice with factory and flying is a godsend in the midst of a ground stall.

However, I've found deed is usually pretty effective in getting me out of those situations and I'm rarely swarmed by creatures before I can recover. Thresh is not huge in the meta here. If I did find that happening to myself I'd probably just switch to one of the UWb builds that includes humility or moat.

Despite all of that I think I might add it into my testing cycle along with Tombstalker and Exalted Angel as I've become increasing discontented with my 4x goyfs.

The art is fantastic. :smile:

[Frenger]

I dunno man, Its not worth siding in beb against maybe 2 matchups 1 of them being burn which you lose anyways and 2 being loam control.

I think thats the reason you have meddling mage and pate, mage stops wish, or counterspell or force. you also have your own wish for krosan grip :). I just dont see loam control as that big of a threat. Its never been amazing in the matchups ive played it or played against it although I could be absolutely dead wrong.

Loam and dragon stompy are two of the decks worst matchups and BEB is amazing in them both. Destroying a magus/blood moon of a basic island is almost always the difference between a win and a loss. Also, i dont think burn is an auto loss as you have a great out in cunning wish -> pulse of the fields. As long as you can pull that off before they kill you you're set. They run out of gas pretty quickly and can't compete with PotF, the problem is cunning wishing for it before they kill you.

BEB is also great against loam as its a 1 mana vindicate on crusher and they dont gain ridonk amounts of life as if you StP'd it. Not to mention a 1 mana counter against assault/wish/DD.

BEB is also good against goblins, not quite as good as EP, but it kills everything sans piledriver and can counter every creature for 1 blue, which is good considering goblins speed.

My point is that BEB does more against more decks (that are bad MU's) than EP does. I don't even see where EP is good except against goblins, where BEB is a great answer to several very problematic matchups.

Also, theres a survival build running magus of the moon nowadays. Its an easy matchup without magus, but its GG if they play him. Cunning wish to a BEB won me a game i definitely should have lost.

tl;dl BEB kicks tons of ass against shitty MU's, EP does this to a far lesser extent.

I like stoic angel a lot, there might be potential in a build focused around abusing it, but i don't think i would run it just because it sucks with humility. I hate it enough already topdecking a dragon when i have a humility, but at least he can fetch me some plains and come back if they destroy the humility making the anti synergy more negligible.

[Illissius]

I'm not too impressed by the Angel. It's just going to eat removal, and there's something like one significant deck in the format who's going to be hurt by the Orb-for-creatures.

[Tacosnape]

What do you guys think of this?

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=78482&d=1220889344

1. Why are we playing creatures in Landstill again?

2. If we are, why aren't they named Tarmogoyf, Tombstalker, or Eternal Dragon?

3. Has 4 mana for a 3-power creature ever been good in this format?

4. The ability sucks. Most players will drop one threat at a time down against you, because dropping two down opens them up to a sweep and card advantage for you. They -might- drop down a second one to try and get around this guy, or more likely? They'll use all the removal that's been sitting dead in their hand for half the match.

[slaiter]

My new list:

//Lands
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Mirsha's Factory
2 Nantuko Monastery
1 Tolaria West
1 Academy Ruins
1 Wasteland
//25

//Creatures
1 Tombstalker
//1

//Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Pernicious Dead
2 Engenereed Explosives
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Stifle
1 Cruicible of Worlds
1 Decree of Justice
1 Enlightened Tutor
//35

Suggestions?

[Frenger]

I would suggest running eternal dragon over tombstalker. The cost is not prohibitive and the land fetching ability helps a ton. Being able to get it back if it gets removed it sauce. Furthermore, you can still fetch lands if you have a humility in play where stalker would be a dead card.

Secondly, where the hell are your humilities???? That card is so amazing. I would cut 2 FoF and run 2 humilities in that slot.

2 Nantukos is overkill. I run just one and most people have cut it entirely. Running dragon over stalker helps justify cutting a land. I would suggest another decree of justice in that slot.

Also, running Dust Bowl over wasteland is a recent developement that is explained better a few pages back. Instead of failing at convincing you, Im just gonna suggest you play a few ga,es with it and see how awesome it is.

One last card i would like to see in there would be 1 Life from the Loam. It helps get the waste/dustbowl locks and is nutty with tolaria west.

Oh yeah, cut 1 trop, 2 seas, and 1 tundra for 1 plains, 1 island, 1 savannah and 1 scrubland. It helps stop the extirpate your G or B, GG and magus of the moon GG

EDIT why do you have just 1 enlightened tutor?

[TopGun]

1. Why are we playing creatures in Landstill again?

2. If we are, why aren't they named Tarmogoyf, Tombstalker, or Eternal Dragon?

3. Has 4 mana for a 3-power creature ever been good in this format?

4. The ability sucks. Most players will drop one threat at a time down against you, because dropping two down opens them up to a sweep and card advantage for you. They -might- drop down a second one to try and get around this guy, or more likely? They'll use all the removal that's been sitting dead in their hand for half the match.

I just wanted to add that the one creature they are usually (see tarmogoyf) untapping will whoop on the 3/4 flyer in combat. So...not really seeing the value to paying 1uwg for an inferior creature over 1g for a quicker, easier, bigger one.

[mossivo1986]

I just wanted to add that the one creature they are usually (see tarmogoyf) untapping will whoop on the 3/4 flyer in combat. So...not really seeing the value to paying 1uwg for an inferior creature over 1g for a quicker, easier, bigger one.

The idea isnt that she blocks. The idea is that she races and mantains a slight grip of control on the game imo. You handle creatures to big for her to deal with via the same way you always have, but now you have a psudo creature orb along with an evasive 3/4.

But Taco's input probobly makes more sense.

[3duece]

So, what are people's sideboards looking like now? I don't play wish so I have lots of room. How can I get alot of graveyard hate in while leaving room for a good dragon-stompy board? My basic structure is now looking something like:

4 hydroblast
x krosan grip
x tormod's crypt
x extirpate
x nevinyrral's disk

The problems here are stretching numbers too thin and no slot for runed halo/meddling mage. What do you guys suggest?

[raharu]

So, what are people's sideboards looking like now? I don't play wish so I have lots of room. How can I get alot of graveyard hate in while leaving room for a good dragon-stompy board? My basic structure is now looking something like:

4 hydroblast
x krosan grip
x tormod's crypt
x extirpate
x nevinyrral's disk

The problems here are stretching numbers too thin and no slot for runed halo/meddling mage. What do you guys suggest?
4 BEB
3 K. Grip
3 Crypt
3 Extirpate
2 Nevin's Disk

BEB, K. Grip, and Disk should be sufficient hate for Dragon Stompy when combined with Swords and Forces, Crypts and Extirpates are for Ichorid, and Extirpate is for the various matches it's good in (although I think a 2/4 split would be better. Then again, I'm not that fond of Crypt, so I'd take any thoughts on Crypt from me with a grain of salt), and Disk, being 4 mana, Disk doesn't seem good as more than a two of. That looks about right to me, and I don't see any need for MM or Halo, unless you have >9000 combo in your meta, and then... wow. Ichorid, D. Stompy, and Combo (that you don't face-smash game one?!!?!?)... That's a pretty icky metagame for 4c Landstill, or at least I'd think.

[Tacosnape]

Why is Disk in the board?

The notion that you're going to reset the game with a Disk after a turn one Blood Moon is a pretty bad one. Either you Force it, Blast it once you have a land drop, or Grip it once you have three. And if you -don't- have that Force? You're going to cry when you drop that Disk and suddenly you realize, much to your dismay, that someone has metaphorically taken a pink highlighter and written "PLAY PITHING NEEDLE AND NAME ME FOR TEH WINZ" on your Nevinyrral's Disk.

The better solution to Dragon Stompy is more blasts. Seriously. If you expect it a lot, run 8. It's the best card ever against the deck. You go "Flooded Strand, go." and you made significant strides towards winning the game. Just clear Chalices with Engineered Explosives, Deed, and Grip.

Dragon Stompy and 4C Landstill are my two pet decks. I've played the match a jillion times. Dragon Stompy, as I would know, is the worst deck in the entire universe if it has to match a control deck card for card. Seriously. Keep Chalice off the table and 8 Blasts will -wreck- this deck. You'll outdraw it, you'll out-economize it, and you'll just basically slaughter it. If you manage to win game one, you're almost guaranteed the match. If you lose game one, sometimes Dragon Stompy will manage to steal one of the latter two from you anyway, but your chances are significantly better.

My SB if I'm expecting lots of DS?

4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Hydroblast
3 Meddling Mage
2 Krosan Grip
2 Extirpate (I maindeck one)

Eight blasts gives you solid fighting shots against Dragon Stompy and Goblins, helps against Goyf Sligh-ish and Burn type decks, and can even be useful against Storm Combo decks that rely heavily on Burning Wish or red mana acceleration. (Not amazingly useful, but more useful than some of the more dead cards in your deck.)

[3duece]

Awesome, thanks guys. I'm not expecting a dragon stompy heavy meta, I just want enough tools to handle it while also having answers to graveyard strategies (ichorid, loam, intuition) and counterbalance nonsense.

[b4r0n]

The better solution to Dragon Stompy is more blasts. Seriously. If you expect it a lot, run 8. It's the best card ever against the deck. You go "Flooded Strand, go." and you made significant strides towards winning the game. Just clear Chalices with Engineered Explosives, Deed, and Grip.

I'm not doubting you or anything, since you're clearly more familiar with this matchup than I am, but isn't this strategy only viable on the play? If they drop Chalice at 1 or a Moon effect on turn 1, you've completely lost. Disk + BEB seems like a solid strategy if you're on the draw since you retain the ability to counter any non-turn-1 Moons and can also sweep the board on turn 4 if necessary. Yes, Pithing Needle is a beating. But you still have outs to it (EE), and it seems like a generally stronger weapon than blasts.

The reason I point this out is because I assume that you lose game 1, meaning you have to win at least one game post board on the draw... a task which seems rather risky if you're relying solely on blasts.

[mossivo1986]

I'm not doubting you or anything, since you're clearly more familiar with this matchup than I am, but isn't this strategy only viable on the play? If they drop Chalice at 1 or a Moon effect on turn 1, you've completely lost. Disk + BEB seems like a solid strategy if you're on the draw since you retain the ability to counter any non-turn-1 Moons and can also sweep the board on turn 4 if necessary. Yes, Pithing Needle is a beating. But you still have outs to it (EE), and it seems like a generally stronger weapon than blasts.

The reason I point this out is because I assume that you lose game 1, meaning you have to win at least one game post board on the draw... a task which seems rather risky if you're relying solely on blasts.

What Taco's not telling you is that he plays a u/g/b version and thus is much better off :) j/k j/k.

If your on the draw against d stompy and they get t1 challice it can really hurt, but so can t2 blood moon off of protected trinisphere. Basicly just try and work around with beb as it can really help you in a game. My personal preferance since the stompy deck is heading into a more aggro base anyways is to stay with what you have and watch the deck evolve and plan accordingly. Where im from theres usually one d stompy which doesnt warrant playing true hate as theres a crowd of about 20-30 people. The rest of the decks are either goblins, discard, loam or elves. I do well in this meta to say the least.

[Frenger]

What Taco's not telling you is that he plays a u/g/b version and thus is much better off :) j/k j/k.

If your on the draw against d stompy and they get t1 challice it can really hurt, but so can t2 blood moon off of protected trinisphere. Basicly just try and work around with beb as it can really help you in a game. My personal preferance since the stompy deck is heading into a more aggro base anyways is to stay with what you have and watch the deck evolve and plan accordingly. Where im from theres usually one d stompy which doesnt warrant playing true hate as theres a crowd of about 20-30 people. The rest of the decks are either goblins, discard, loam or elves. I do well in this meta to say the least.

Goblins, Loam, and one d stompy? Why don't you run BEB again? Haven't tested elves but it shouldn't be a bad MU. Discard can be a cake walk or be really tough. If they play waste it's pretty tough so i usually board in extirpates just for that. Waste lock is not as good here, but loam and tolaria wast is really good. This is a matchup in which i'm glad i run 1 monastery since they can match my mishras with their own.

[Tacosnape]

I'm not doubting you or anything, since you're clearly more familiar with this matchup than I am, but isn't this strategy only viable on the play? If they drop Chalice at 1 or a Moon effect on turn 1, you've completely lost. Disk + BEB seems like a solid strategy if you're on the draw since you retain the ability to counter any non-turn-1 Moons and can also sweep the board on turn 4 if necessary. Yes, Pithing Needle is a beating. But you still have outs to it (EE), and it seems like a generally stronger weapon than blasts.

The reason I point this out is because I assume that you lose game 1, meaning you have to win at least one game post board on the draw... a task which seems rather risky if you're relying solely on blasts.

You aren't really all that wrong on your points. I just don't agree with the conclusion. Despite any of that, Disk isn't that strong of an addition. It helps fewer matchups and it's unreliable.

Assuming a loss of game one isn't a necessary thing. If you can Force a turn one Moon or if they don't have it, then you get both Force and Counterspell to deal with subsequent Blood Moons, as well as Diabolic Edict and STP to deal with future Maguses (Don't tap out, float the mana in response to the Magus, then play the removal spell.) Deed and EE will also do it once they're already out, and both are good at handling Chalice of the Void. Beyond their accidental "Oops, I win" plays, you outdraw them and can handle their threats.

If you do lose game one, let's look at the Blasts point. You'll be insanely favored on game two. Game three, let's look at it.

1. If you have a Force in your opening hand at all, chances are you're in fantastic shape. The Force will last long enough to get your land drop down and get your blasts online.

2. Acknowledging the validity of your point, is Disk any better at all? Disk is usable against Blood Moon (wielded by anything, not just DS) and not guaranteed to even work at all due to Pithing Needle, removal, or not being able to find it due to your draw being shut off by Blood Moon wrecking your manabase. Beyond that, it's a bad Deed. Blast picks up significant use against Goblins, Red combo decks, and annoying crap like Devastating Dreams and Burning Wish (And, well, Crusher) against Loam decks.

[Dark_Cynic87]

// Lands
1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
3 Mishra’s Factory
1 Plains
2 Polluted Delta
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath
1 Tolaria West
1 Dust Bowl

// Creatures
1 Eternal Dragon

// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Cunning Wish
2 Decree of Justice
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of Will
2 Humility
1 Life from the Loam
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Standstill
4 Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 3 Extirpate
SB: 4 Meddling Mage
SB: 1 Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 Seed Spark
SB: 1 Slaughter Pact

I'm wanting to tailor it for a metagame of Burn, Dragon Stompy, Ichorid and Spring Tide. The guy who played Thresh quit magic, and now this is the extent of my metagame. Being such a limited metagame, I figured I could get my list tweaked to the point of being extremely powerful due to Landstill's exceptional strength in it's ability to be sculpted by the metagame. It reminds me of Vintage keeper of years past. I could use some help. The main things are (I'm sure you know, but humor me):

Dragon stompy is 50/50. I'm wanting better.

Spring Tide isn't extremely difficult, but if I can't shut it down before turn 3, they normally win.

Ichorid shouldn't be hard, just Extirpates MD'ed as well as Chain of Vapor (unless I should ignore the Leylines game 2? Will they even side them in?).

Burn. WTF. Is this a difficult matchup or is it a bye? Somewhere in between? I don't know, and I don't want to find out the hard way. I'm guessing Pulse of the Fields is a Godly Godly card here.

Do I need to fit Ponder in here? I haven't kept up with my Landstill list as I've been heavily investing my time to FT for the last while. Thought I'd catch my Landstill build up to speed now that my combo list is finished for the time being.

I really appreciate your help. BTW, this is a VERY minorly tweaked list of Der's list from a while ago. It's been good to me, but I thought I'd get it checked on. I'd rather have Der's opinion of what needs to be done, but Tacosnape should give me his opinion too. Everyone is more than welcome to give me advice, but I want one of those two's input for sure.

Thanks, and Pce,

--DC

[Tacosnape]

(List)

I'm wanting to tailor it for a metagame of Burn, Dragon Stompy, Ichorid and Spring Tide. The guy who played Thresh quit magic, and now this is the extent of my metagame. Being such a limited metagame, I figured I could get my list tweaked to the point of being extremely powerful due to Landstill's exceptional strength in it's ability to be sculpted by the metagame. It reminds me of Vintage keeper of years past. I could use some help. The main things are (I'm sure you know, but humor me):

Dragon stompy is 50/50. I'm wanting better.

Spring Tide isn't extremely difficult, but if I can't shut it down before turn 3, they normally win.

Ichorid shouldn't be hard, just Extirpates MD'ed as well as Chain of Vapor (unless I should ignore the Leylines game 2? Will they even side them in?).

Burn. WTF. Is this a difficult matchup or is it a bye? Somewhere in between? I don't know, and I don't want to find out the hard way. I'm guessing Pulse of the Fields is a Godly Godly card here.

Do I need to fit Ponder in here? I haven't kept up with my Landstill list as I've been heavily investing my time to FT for the last while. Thought I'd catch my Landstill build up to speed now that my combo list is finished for the time being.

I really appreciate your help. BTW, this is a VERY minorly tweaked list of Der's list from a while ago. It's been good to me, but I thought I'd get it checked on. I'd rather have Der's opinion of what needs to be done, but Tacosnape should give me his opinion too. Everyone is more than welcome to give me advice, but I want one of those two's input for sure.

Thanks, and Pce,

--DC

First off, Pulse of the Fields exists to make Burn not steamroll you. That said, Burn is still going to be a fight for you. You've -got- to get Pulse of the Fields online to have a fighting chance, and the earliest you can do this is turn four. You have hardly any Blasts to board in to deal with Burn's random anti-lifegain SB tech, much less Price of Progress which can deal six or more to you, which can occasionally reach beyond Pulse of the Fields. Pulse will keep you fighting in this matchup pretty well, but if you want to make this a little more favorable? Add more Blasts.

Dragon Stompy? Same deal. Blasts help. Run more.

Ichorid's going to be tricky. You're pretty much fairly optimally set for it with triple Extirpates and triple Plagues in board. The best you can do beyond that is a fourth one of either, and it's hard to justify fitting either of those in, especially in a Wish build. Extirpate Bridge from Below at all costs, Plague Horror and Illusion, and cruise to wins on game two and three. Game one's going to be hard, as you'll need to slow down their initial explosion -and- be able to Wish for an Extirpate at some point.

Spring Tide's a hard call. The fact that they have to go off at sorcery speed makes your chances better (Solidarity will stomp Landstill, Spring Tide has a rougher time.) That said, your hate for the deck is highly limited to Mage and I seriously doubt you're favored game one against a solid player. That said, Tide decks fear Mage beyond anything else.

So essentially you need to add Blasts to your board. The trick becomes in what to cut. Given your metagame (Is there any Land destruction at -all-?), I might be tempted to cut that maindeck Crucible and move an Extirpate maindeck in order to free up a slot for Blast #2. For any beyond that, I'd listen to whatever DER says (If it were me, I'd go to two Plagues, as I could afford the loss of power against Ichorid by moving the first Extirpate to the maindeck, and the additional Blasts would help compensate against Goblins.)

Hope that helps.

[mossivo1986]

First off, Pulse of the Fields exists to make Burn not steamroll you. That said, Burn is still going to be a fight for you. You've -got- to get Pulse of the Fields online to have a fighting chance, and the earliest you can do this is turn four. You have hardly any Blasts to board in to deal with Burn's random anti-lifegain SB tech, much less Price of Progress which can deal six or more to you, which can occasionally reach beyond Pulse of the Fields. Pulse will keep you fighting in this matchup pretty well, but if you want to make this a little more favorable? Add more Blasts.

Dragon Stompy? Same deal. Blasts help. Run more.

Ichorid's going to be tricky. You're pretty much fairly optimally set for it with triple Extirpates and triple Plagues in board. The best you can do beyond that is a fourth one of either, and it's hard to justify fitting either of those in, especially in a Wish build. Extirpate Bridge from Below at all costs, Plague Horror and Illusion, and cruise to wins on game two and three. Game one's going to be hard, as you'll need to slow down their initial explosion -and- be able to Wish for an Extirpate at some point.

Spring Tide's a hard call. The fact that they have to go off at sorcery speed makes your chances better (Solidarity will stomp Landstill, Spring Tide has a rougher time.) That said, your hate for the deck is highly limited to Mage and I seriously doubt you're favored game one against a solid player. That said, Tide decks fear Mage beyond anything else.

So essentially you need to add Blasts to your board. The trick becomes in what to cut. Given your metagame (Is there any Land destruction at -all-?), I might be tempted to cut that maindeck Crucible and move an Extirpate maindeck in order to free up a slot for Blast #2. For any beyond that, I'd listen to whatever DER says (If it were me, I'd go to two Plagues, as I could afford the loss of power against Ichorid by moving the first Extirpate to the maindeck, and the additional Blasts would help compensate against Goblins.)

Hope that helps.

haha I remember against rdw somehow I got to lategame g1 without wishes with my old u/w model and cast decree for 2 angels with 1 mana open, he casts a burn spell eot I swords one of my angels. I dunno why I thought it was funny but w/e keep in mind i was not running cunning wish back then. Shortly there after I did it with mishra's factory too.

[Shimster]

TMT UBg Landstill (nonameyet.dec)

// Lands (24)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins
1 Lonely Sandbar
1 Wasteland

// Cardadvantage & Cardquality (10)
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
2 Intuition

// Stackcontrol (10)
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare

// Boardcontrol (10)
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Crime / Punishment

// Utility (6)
3 Moment's Peace
1 Life from the Loam
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Mindslaver

Lonely Sandbar - The biggest downside of Life from the Loam is its hostile nature regarding carddraw. Landstill needs to draw cards in order to provide cardadvantage, while most Loam decks are more capable of abusing their engine. Lonely Sandbar (drawn, dredged or Intuitioned) makes drawing cards with LftL way easier.

Intuition - Although this deck is already good without Intuition, it's _really_ good with it:

Academy Ruins/Life from the Loam/Engineered Explosives
Academy Ruins/Life from the Loam/Mindslaver
Lonely Sandbar/Wasteland/Life from the Loam
Moment's Peace/Moment's Peace/Moment's Peace (very cheesy)

Moment's Peace - It buys up to 6 rounds against aggro, it's an out against Goblin Lackey while on the play, it shines against Aggro Loam in combination with Intuition, and so on. If Landstill likes the lategame, Moment's Peace is the fastpass ticket.

Mindslaver - Yes, I like Vintage. Yes, I really like Control Slaver (the European version - fuck you Strategic Planning! :tongue:). And yes, I am of the opinion that Legacy is missing a good deck abusing Mindslaver as a control or win condition. You don't need Goblin Welder to make it good, as you've got LftL, CoW and Academy Ruins.

Onions?


That said, Tide decks fear Mage beyond anything else.

Counterbalance wants to have a word with you. :wink:

[Illissius]

Onions?

Yes please.

[raharu]

Yes please.
Onions? Wat?

@ Dark_Cynic87: Why the Slaughter Pact in the side? I can't think of a creature (that I would find relevant enough to wish an answer up for) that Pact would handle that BEB couldn't handle just as well.

[Jaynel]

A few questions for Shimster:
Is Edict better than Swords to Plowshares?
Is 4 Counterspell the right number? Have you tried running any numbers of Ponder?

[3duece]

Hey guys, I'm looking for some help with my manabase. Does this look playable in 4c? I tried getting rid of academy ruins but its too good with explosives, crypt and disk. I know we already have too many decklists, but here's what I'm now working with:
4 standstill
4 brainstorm
2 ponder
2 fact or fiction
4 counterspell
4 force of will
4 swords to plowshares
2 decree of justice
2 humility
3 pernicious deed
3 engineered explosives
1 life from the loam
1 crucible of worlds
4 mishra's factory
4 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
3 tundra
2 tropical island
1 underground sea
1 scrubland
1 savanna
2 island
1 plains
1 dust bowl
1 tolaria west
1 academy ruins

sb
4 hydroblast
3 krosan grip
3 extirpate
3 tormod's crypt
2 nevinyrral's disk

Is the manabase too cumbersome with 6 colorless sources? If not, should I be running intuition over FoF since I have ruins, dust bowl and loam?

[Tacosnape]

List

Counterbalance wants to have a word with you. :wink:

Crime and Punishment in a build that can't cast Crime? Seriously? Crime is what makes C//P even playable.

If it were me, I'd cut C//P, 1 Moment's Peace, the Mindslaver, and the Crucible (You can grab Loam off Intuition! You don't need a Crucible!) for a quad of Innocent Blood. Your control capacity against seriously aggro decks is, well, seriously lacking.

And, okay, yes, valid point. Counterbalance does anally rape Tide more than Mage.

[Frenger]

A few questions for Shimster:
Is Edict better than Swords to Plowshares?
Is 4 Counterspell the right number? Have you tried running any numbers of Ponder?

He isn't running white.

I recently dropped 2 counterspells for 2 ponder and the change is performing amazingly well. I found i didn't need the counterspells since i often had a sweeper anyways, and ponder let me cut a land to boot.

[Mister Agent]

Intuition in UGB landstill seems to have potential in my opinion. However if your including intuition you very much should include a package of wastelands to fight the mirror. Also pithing needle(on decree), eternal witness, volrath's stronghold, and as well as moment's peace come to mind as well. Don't forget about gigapede too.

Speaking of gigapede, Haunting echoes supplemented with witness seems pretty hot in the mirror and other matchups as well.

On another note, I still have a urge to work on Bardo's Voroshstill. But ever since I boarded in 4 hydroblasts and 3 BEB I have been winning against aggro loam, goyf sligh, and dragonstompy left and right with his list. While the other half of voroshstill's sideboard has just been graveyard hate with a couple of Krosan grips. I like the fact of having countertop and tarmogoyf in the main considering then I could conserve room in the board for the most grueling matchups.

[mossivo1986]

I can't stand the idea of turning landstill into that u/g/b basicly rock deck. Theres a reason it doesnt work for landstill and thats because the idea turns into a I win because I cast big poofy spell or swing with easier win conditions, exactly what landstill DOES NOT do. I never did test crime/ punishment, but it doesn't sound like I would ever want to. Haunting echoes is one hell of a beating if it resolves. I could see it being played in u/b/r still with burning wish and alot of hardcore answers in the board as well.

[Mister Agent]

I can't stand the idea of turning landstill into that u/g/b basicly rock deck. Theres a reason it doesnt work for landstill and thats because the idea turns into a I win because I cast big poofy spell or swing with easier win conditions, exactly what landstill DOES NOT do. I never did test crime/ punishment, but it doesn't sound like I would ever want to. Haunting echoes is one hell of a beating if it resolves. I could see it being played in u/b/r still with burning wish and alot of hardcore answers in the board as well.

Well you could easily say that about It's the fear since it runs eternal witness, volrath's stronghold, and pernicious deed as well. But the deck itself plays totally different from the rock.

UGB is a relevant color combination for landstill considering the color setup allows for decks like Voroshstill to operate like any other control deck in the format. You also can switch up on the tempo with UGB landstill and play more aggressively with tombstalkers and tarmogoyfs which is a plus compared to traditional landstill even though it's not necessarily better. Being the aggressor against decks like aggro loam can definitely help considering aggro loam tends to have a more substantial mid to late game then landstill does. This is the case since aggro loam has several powerful engines running and all of those components integrate well into one hefty package.

[mossivo1986]

Well, i'd rather play urb then ugb.

burning wish in still is rediculous, much more so I would say then witness :)

[Atwa]

Ok, even if I am a long time poster here, I have just build a Landstill deck for the first time ever. Yeah, I know shame on me.

Here is the list:

3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
2 Island

4 Mishra's Factory
2 Nantuko Monastry
1 Academy Ruins
1 Maze of Ith

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Duress (could be Thoughseize, however I like my shiny Duresses)
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Intuition

4 Standstill
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Veldaken Shackles
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Jace Beleren

I haven't tested this list yet (only build it a couple of minutes ago), however for the people who have way more experiance with 4C Landstill, are there any critical flaws with this list?

I lack a 4th Tundra and have only 1 Maze, so those choises were budgetary reasons.

I played against a Landstill deck with Maze before and I was really impressed by their strenght. If possible I'd like to keep them in the deck.

[Frenger]

I would cut a crucible for a life from the loam. You run intuition already. I would also cut a monastery for a wasteland or dustbowl to really capitalize on intuition. I don't think shackles are very strong here, I would cut then for 1 deed and 1 explosives.

[mossivo1986]

Ok, even if I am a long time poster here, I have just build a Landstill deck for the first time ever. Yeah, I know shame on me.

Here is the list:

3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
2 Island

4 Mishra's Factory
2 Nantuko Monastry
1 Academy Ruins
1 Maze of Ith

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Duress (could be Thoughseize, however I like my shiny Duresses)
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Intuition

4 Standstill
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Veldaken Shackles
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Jace Beleren

I haven't tested this list yet (only build it a couple of minutes ago), however for the people who have way more experiance with 4C Landstill, are there any critical flaws with this list?

I lack a 4th Tundra and have only 1 Maze, so those choises were budgetary reasons.

I played against a Landstill deck with Maze before and I was really impressed by their strenght. If possible I'd like to keep them in the deck.


too many colorless sources.

[Tacosnape]

Ok, even if I am a long time poster here, I have just build a Landstill deck for the first time ever. Yeah, I know shame on me.

Here is the list:

3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
2 Island

4 Mishra's Factory
2 Nantuko Monastry
1 Academy Ruins
1 Maze of Ith

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Duress (could be Thoughseize, however I like my shiny Duresses)
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Intuition

4 Standstill
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Veldaken Shackles
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Jace Beleren

I haven't tested this list yet (only build it a couple of minutes ago), however for the people who have way more experiance with 4C Landstill, are there any critical flaws with this list?

I lack a 4th Tundra and have only 1 Maze, so those choises were budgetary reasons.

I played against a Landstill deck with Maze before and I was really impressed by their strenght. If possible I'd like to keep them in the deck.

Here are the things you need to keep in mind.

1. You only have nine sources to hit any given nonblue color mana on the draw. Which is important. You may need to Swords a Lackey, or Duress away a combo piece. This is excluding Intuition, which can color fix in a pinch.

2. You are light on creature removal.

3. Your blue card count for Force of Will is dangerously low.

4. There is absolutely no good reason to run Loam over Crucible if you A. aren't running Wasteland and B. Are running Intuition. Intuition into Loam and 2 lands is a fantastically strong play.

Therefore without too in depth analysis I'd ditch both Crucibles for a Loam and some card that addresses one of your other three problems in some way.

[Obfuscate Freely]

too many colorless sources.
Too many colorless sources for what? He has 17 colored sources, which is the important number, and which is enough to function (albeit just barely).

All 17 of those lands produce blue mana, so he's supporting Counterspell fine. However, as Tacosnape pointed out, access to the splash colors is shakier. I would definitely suggest fitting in the other two blue fetchlands, probably by cutting the Islands. I don't think you can afford to run basics in that manabase; if you need them in your metagame, you are going to need to trim either colorless lands or spells.


As for the rest of the list, I think it needs more focus, and fewer slow and situational cards. I'd start by cutting Duress, which is much worse than Thoughtseize, when even the latter is questionable in Landstill. I would also find room for Pernicious Deed #4 before adding worse removal like Explosives, Shackles, and Maze of Ith.

I strongly believe that Landstill should run Fact or Fiction, and would never play Intuition or Jace instead. FoF has a much more immediate effect.

My last suggestion for you is fit in a playset of Tarmogoyfs, cutting Crucible of Worlds in the process. My reasoning is that Tarmogoyf is really good at blocking creatures and killing opponents (without going to time, even!), and that Crucible simply isn't necessary with the additional win conditions in the deck.

[mossivo1986]

Too many colorless sources for what? He has 17 colored sources, which is the important number, and which is enough to function (albeit just barely).

All 17 of those lands produce blue mana, so he's supporting Counterspell fine. However, as Tacosnape pointed out, access to the splash colors is shakier. I would definitely suggest fitting in the other two blue fetchlands, probably by cutting the Islands. I don't think you can afford to run basics in that manabase; if you need them in your metagame, you are going to need to trim either colorless lands or spells.


As for the rest of the list, I think it needs more focus, and fewer slow and situational cards. I'd start by cutting Duress, which is much worse than Thoughtseize, when even the latter is questionable in Landstill. I would also find room for Pernicious Deed #4 before adding worse removal like Explosives, Shackles, and Maze of Ith.

I strongly believe that Landstill should run Fact or Fiction, and would never play Intuition or Jace instead. FoF has a much more immediate effect.

My last suggestion for you is fit in a playset of Tarmogoyfs, cutting Crucible of Worlds in the process. My reasoning is that Tarmogoyf is really good at blocking creatures and killing opponents (without going to time, even!), and that Crucible simply isn't necessary with the additional win conditions in the deck.

I'm not even going to explain why 9 colorless sources of mana would not work in a 4 color landstill mod. Unless your going over sixty in your deck I don't see it performing consistantly.

[Obfuscate Freely]

I'm not even going to explain why 9 colorless sources of mana would not work in a 4 color landstill mod. Unless your going over sixty in your deck I don't see it performing consistantly.
Ha! You're going to have to do better than that. The "too many colorless lands" schtick is incorrect, specious reasoning.

What matters is how many colored sources you play, because those are what you use to play spells.

[thefreakaccident]

Colorless producents are just fine... as long as they do not eat into the colored producent's slots... that's whjen it becomes issue.

[raharu]

Ha! You're going to have to do better than that. The "too many colorless lands" schtick is incorrect, specious reasoning.

What matters is how many colored sources you play, because those are what you use to play spells.
+1

[mossivo1986]

all im saying is this:

t1: u/w/b
t2: uu/w/b/ or green
t3: uu/w/b/g

is going to be difficult on 9 colorless sources. So either he has some help from the heart of the cards, and doesn't get those dreaded 2-3 colorless land hands, or he has 3 color producers and one not. None of those situations I would enjoy being in. :)

If it were me i'd do it's a bit differently is all i'm saying. I just don't think you can consistently perform well under his landbase.

Nuff said, im not going to fiddle-fuss. Yes I said fiddle-fuss.

[Atwa]

3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
2 Island

4 Mishra's Factory
2 Nantuko Monastry
1 Academy Ruins
1 Maze of Ith

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Duress (could be Thoughseize, however I like my shiny Duresses)
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Intuition

4 Standstill
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Veldaken Shackles
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Jace Beleren


After reading the comments, I'm going to test the list with the following changes:
- 2 Island
- 1 Academy Ruins
- 2 Crucible of Worlds
- 2 Engineered Explosives
- 2 Veldaken Shackles
- 1 Jace

+ 2 Fetch
+ 1 Maze of Ith
+ 1 Pernicious Deed
+ 2 Life from the Loam
+ 2 Ghastly Demise
+ 1 Spell Snare

[Frenger]

After reading the comments, I'm going to test the list with the following changes:
- 2 Island
- 1 Academy Ruins
- 2 Crucible of Worlds
- 2 Engineered Explosives
- 2 Veldaken Shackles
- 1 Jace

+ 2 Fetch
+ 1 Maze of Ith
+ 1 Pernicious Deed
+ 2 Life from the Loam
+ 2 Ghastly Demise
+ 1 Spell Snare

-10

+9

Looks like you meant to leave in 1 EE, which i would suggest anyways. Why did you cut the academy ruins? Its great with intuition loam and EE.

[Atwa]

-10

+9

Looks like you meant to leave in 1 EE, which i would suggest anyways. Why did you cut the academy ruins? Its great with intuition loam and EE.

No I only cut 9 cards. There was only 1 EE in the list to begin with. I cut the Ruins since I don't run any artifacts anymore.

I'm thinking about changing the Intuitions for Fact or Fictions. Without the ruins I can't make any more fancy piles with Ruins now, however I lose the pile making with LftL.

What would you advise?

[Illissius]

I would either cut the second Loam and something else (not the Maze, Maze is awesome) for EE and Academy back in, or cut the Intuitions for Facts. Intuitioning for two Mazes and a Loam is pretty awesome against some decks, when paired with your sweepers especially.

I doubt Ghastly Demise is your next best removal option after Swords, and I don't like Spell Snare in Landstill. You especially don't need it with four Duress in addition to the standard countermagic. (And Duress is a whole 'nother debate I don't want to get into.)

So I suggest:
-1 Life from the Loam
-2 Ghastly Demise
-1 Spell Snare
+1 Academy Ruins
+1 Engineered Explosives
+2 Other (More Removal/Intuition/Fact/Shackles/?)

[Frenger]

No I only cut 9 cards. There was only 1 EE in the list to begin with. I cut the Ruins since I don't run any artifacts anymore.

I'm thinking about changing the Intuitions for Fact or Fictions. Without the ruins I can't make any more fancy piles with Ruins now, however I lose the pile making with LftL.

What would you advise?

I'd put EE and academy back in, it seems silly to even run intuition without the goodness that this brings.



So I suggest:
-1 Life from the Loam
-2 Ghastly Demise
-1 Spell Snare
+1 Academy Ruins
+1 Engineered Explosives
+2 Other (More Removal/Intuition/Fact/Shackles/?)

So, this.

[mossivo1986]

New Sb: 4c_wish_still

4 meddling
3 hydroblast
1 seed spark
1 enlightened tutor
1 slaughter pact
2 EP
3 extirpate

[Frenger]

New Sb: 4c_wish_still

4 meddling
3 hydroblast
1 seed spark
1 enlightened tutor
1 slaughter pact
2 EP
3 extirpate

How often is slaughter pact even relevant? Pulse of the Fields seems much stronger in that slot.

[Dark_Cynic87]

I would never make a sideboard without a Pulse of the Fields in it. Have you ever thought about using bounce?

Pce,

--DC

[Frenger]

I would never make a sideboard without a Pulse of the Fields in it. Have you ever thought about using bounce?

Pce,

--DC

Maybe if you see a lot of stax you could use one rebuild or hurkyls recall, but i don't think it would be too useful otherwise. We have other answers in the form of stp and deed/EE and to a lesser extent seed spark.

[mossivo1986]

The slaughter pact slot is important because it does give you a solid answer in times that you need a removal spell and its not red.

I have used slaughter pact enough to keep it in, but if it doesnt prove more usefull in the comming say weeks, it will become an ep. I have been doing alot of standard testing lately post shards

[mossivo1986]

Also Esper Charm- Seed spark in der's version. Which is better, and why or why not.

[chokin]

Also Esper Charm- Seed spark in der's version. Which is better, and why or why not.

Doesn't Krosan Grip fill this role well enough? And it's only one color.

Seed Spark is out of a normal range of CB, but you're gonna need 5 lands to dodge Daze too. I kinda like the tokens. It's cute.

Esper Charm is out of range too, but it pretty flexible. I'd imagine it can be difficult to cast though.

I kinda like the idea of Cunning Landstill, but I dunno what to cut.

[mossivo1986]

Doesn't Krosan Grip fill this role well enough? And it's only one color.

Seed Spark is out of a normal range of CB, but you're gonna need 5 lands to dodge Daze too. I kinda like the tokens. It's cute.

Esper Charm is out of range too, but it pretty flexible. I'd imagine it can be difficult to cast though.

I kinda like the idea of Cunning Landstill, but I dunno what to cut.

Its not out of range, and in fact fits the model more so of uwb wish still. The main argument is if making your opponent discard 2 cards is worth it, or drawing 2 cards is worth it.

[chokin]

Its not out of range, and in fact fits the model more so of uwb wish still. The main argument is if making your opponent discard 2 cards is worth it, or drawing 2 cards is worth it.

I didn't realize it was just WUB (the thread is WUBG and UBG after all so I didn't know there was no green :/).

I don't know if 2WUUB is worth the Draw 2, Opp Discards 2, or Disenchant. The flexibility is nice, since it's never truly dead, but why wouldn't you run a couple in the main then?

Against Thresh, I'd imagine that Spark is slightly more difficult to resolve due to it's high cost overall and that CB Thresh builds can contain(not all do) some 4cc cards like Swan or Enforcer. That risk is smaller than plain old Disenchant though.

I'd say that Charm is the better of the two though.

[mossivo1986]

I didn't realize it was just WUB (the thread is WUBG and UBG after all so I didn't know there was no green :/).

I don't know if 2WUUB is worth the Draw 2, Opp Discards 2, or Disenchant. The flexibility is nice, since it's never truly dead, but why wouldn't you run a couple in the main then?

Against Thresh, I'd imagine that Spark is slightly more difficult to resolve due to it's high cost overall and that CB Thresh builds can contain(not all do) some 4cc cards like Swan or Enforcer. That risk is smaller than plain old Disenchant though.

I'd say that Charm is the better of the two though.

You'd think so, but your not really afraid of daze if you resolve the wish, as they are more then likely going to daze wish itself, and also the cc of seed spark is actually perfect for getting around cb. As I said before the key is the utlility of the spell.

is a semi disenchant, card advantage tool better then a more fit cc disenchant with added semi win condition. This is something i'd like der to explain if he could.

-Joel Ferris aka MoSs_BoSs

[DuKeLiO]

I've played Landstill with a pretty standard sideboard for some months now with good success. I use this sideboard with a 3 Cunning Wish configuration in maindeck:

4 Meddling Mage
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Extirpate
1 Slaugther Pact
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Dismantling Blow

Enlightened Tutor: I`ve tried this card, and it seems too slow. The most times when I went for it with Enlightened Tutor was a win-more play.

Slaughter Pact: I use to go for it. It has killed a lot of Tarmogoyfs mainly.
Pulse of the Fields: I can't understand how you can win against Tarmosligh or every kind of burn.dec without this. Also is very good against random aggro losing a little to no lives while waiting for a Pernicious Deed, Engineered Explosives or Decree of Justice.
Dismantling Blow: I use this over Seed Spark for the 3 casting cost, avoiding the mostly CC of decks packing Counterbalance, but having a reasonable cost. If it would be countered, Cunning Wish would be countered also. The reason against Krosan Grip is the same, dismantling blow doubles like a card advantage spell and it is in the secondary color, and I can go and play it against a Blood Moon with my two basics and Krosan Grip not.
I also think than the good number of Cunning Wishes maindeck is three. Two are too few to quickly find it against the decks where you absolutely needs it like AggroLoam, Ichorid or Burn.

[mossivo1986]

I've played Landstill with a pretty standard sideboard for some months now with good success. I use this sideboard with a 3 Cunning Wish configuration in maindeck:

4 Meddling Mage
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Extirpate
1 Slaugther Pact
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Dismantling Blow

Enlightened Tutor: I`ve tried this card, and it seems too slow. The most times when I went for it with Enlightened Tutor was a win-more play.

Slaughter Pact: I use to go for it. It has killed a lot of Tarmogoyfs mainly.
Pulse of the Fields: I can't understand how you can win against Tarmosligh or every kind of burn.dec without this. Also is very good against random aggro losing a little to no lives while waiting for a Pernicious Deed, Engineered Explosives or Decree of Justice.
Dismantling Blow: I use this over Seed Spark for the 3 casting cost, avoiding the mostly CC of decks packing Counterbalance, but having a reasonable cost. If it would be countered, Cunning Wish would be countered also. The reason against Krosan Grip is the same, dismantling blow doubles like a card advantage spell and it is in the secondary color, and I can go and play it against a Blood Moon with my two basics and Krosan Grip not.
I also think than the good number of Cunning Wishes maindeck is three. Two are too few to quickly find it against the decks where you absolutely needs it like AggroLoam, Ichorid or Burn.

don't know if I agree with cutting ep, and playing 4 BEB in the side, seems a bit much for a couple of matchups, but who knows.

Also dismantling blow is worse then seed spark in the four color model that der run's. I'm dead sure of it. I've played his decks for a long time and I can tell you that I don't change ANYTHING with 4c unless i'm getting absolute results with another thing. Aka top aka 3rd wish aka more hydro but not 4, maybe 2 maybe 3, but you deffinately only need 11 counters against red decks in this format. Enlightened tutor is one of those other cards I would NEVER cut. Since trading it for fof for sb ca its been the best utility spell i've played with. Its often a game breaker when you go t4 eot wish-tutor untap and drop humility on black decks ect.

[DuKeLiO]

Mostly the 4 BEB are there to combat Dragon Stompy without weaken the sb against goblins.
Really I haven't tested the Seed Spark, but it was my impresion about it. Probably I will get it a chance next weekend.
The 4th turn Cunning for Enlightened Tutor to drop Humility on turn 5 is for me a win-more play like I said in my previous post.

[mossivo1986]

Mostly the 4 BEB are there to combat Dragon Stompy without weaken the sb against goblins.
Really I haven't tested the Seed Spark, but it was my impresion about it. Probably I will get it a chance next weekend.
The 4th turn Cunning for Enlightened Tutor to drop Humility on turn 5 is for me a win-more play like I said in my previous post.

I'll explain this to you as Der explained to me on aim one day. 4c Landstills current problem is its window of oppritunity to win.... Especially more. I understand that alot of people have no problems winning games based on knowlage of the deck or just random luck of the draw or yeah many different things. But bottom line, Cunning wish needs to have reach, not just mildly ammusing answers. If your in a firm lead and your opponent lands a drop you can't take care of, not only is it important to either bait a wish or resolve it, you have to know what to get and/ or if you need something out of your deck. Landing a standstill/humility/deed/ee or in my case add in 1 of top can be a deffinate game breaker as you only need to get over the hump of casting removing to win the game, once that state is reached you've got about 5-7 turns of clear time before your window starts closing and your card advantage is shot. I would say this clear time is somewhere in the turn 7-12. After that the game really is a who topdecks better, or who has better cards for the long game. Most of the time Landstill can win these battles, but just one random burn spell when you exhausted a counter or one unstoppable juggurnaught can ruin your day. Its that avalibility in giving your opponent time that can be devastating if your not correctly playing your cards. Something you can't really teach and until you lose a game to random shock for each non basic you control x2 at instant speed in the late game you wont understand what i'm talking about.

Also Enlightened tutor may seem win-more, but think of it like this. How SAFE do you feel if you have humility in play and 3-4 cards in hand that have minor relevance. Now take that safeness and double it because you have decree/ swords/ standstill in hand. Its all about putting the game away from their control and keeping them out of that win for as long as you can possibly hold it.

x4 BEB seems fundamentally bad against d stompy. They land a challice for 1 its basicly nullifying every sb option you sided in. I understand that its beb and if they dont land the challice its kind of gg in a small way, but fundamentally 12 counters is just too much, even if the beb is a mini vindicate in like 2 matchups. I would much much rather see a number of different cards in atleast two slots. You have the room and the additional wish, why not increase your board to truly go toolbox wish style of play.

Slaughter pact is really a relentless beating on your opponents ego when it all comes down to it. To an opponent recieving a slaughter pact its flavor text becomes

"See I have an answer for every single card you play and theres nothing you can do about it. All I have to do is wish and it happens. GG noobian :)"

In all seriousness though it stops most of the format just by its non blackness. Of course you have to go for other means against the black based decks, but look at it this way, all of a sudden enlightened tutor against those black based aggressive decks like sui black or b/w pikola I believe its called becomes vital and awesome. Enlightened tutor for humility against these decks becomes THE play. Past that you over extend yourself to get card advantage again and relax as you see wish number 2 for pulse, let them rip your hand apart if they want as you can get most of your win conditions back in someway or another, decree to end the game if needed. But the first four turns are key, and if you can play them correctly the game is over before you said humility FTW.

But on the note of esper charm i'm still not sure. I think seed spark is still better, but I want to make my opponent discard 2 cards sooo badly!

[DuKeLiO]

Dragon Stompy has mainly two threats against us: moon effects and chalice at one. The moons effects are the game-winning ones, and I have to deal with it ASAP. Chalice is not so hard threath, beacuse if I survive to the third turn, it is very probable I could play a Pernicious Deed to destroy Chalice and some other threat, play a EE at 0 to get rid of that or play a Cunning for Dismantling Blow to get rid of that. The key in this matchup is survive a few turns dealing with moons, and soon after destroy they with my card advantage and also with their card disadvantage(Chrome Mox, Equipments, Sheeting Song).
Also with the 3 Cunning configuration I need less time to find an answer against a moon in the first game, by fetching Pact, Dismantling Blow or Beb, depending on board state and my manasources, obviously.
Also the Enlightened Tutor play is mostly useful against our better pairings, and I hate to spend sideboard space in these.
When I build my deck I have the goal of not give up any pairing, and have the chance to beat everything. I do not need to feel safe if I am alive in the fourth turn without nothing better to do than spend four mana on tutoring for a enchantment loosing a card in the process.

[Citrus-God]

If you guys that that scared of Moon effects and Chalice for 1, then just play Circle of Protection: Red already. That thrashes Goblins and Aggro Loam...

[Tacosnape]

If you guys that that scared of Moon effects and Chalice for 1, then just play Circle of Protection: Red already. That thrashes Goblins and Aggro Loam...

And doesn't solve Blood Moon. Which Dragon Stompy can just Pithing Needle anyway. And Aggro Loam can ignore with Terravores or just outdo with Seismic Assault (Or by Dreamsing away your mana.)

Blast is the better strategy against all three.

EDIT: To avoid double posting, ignore the nonsequiturness of this. But I'm currently absolutely in love with two maindeck Relic of Progenitus (In non Cunning Wish builds, obviously.) Cantrips, playable off Factory/Monestary mana, and gives me a fighting shot against things like Loam game one. Moderately useful against everything, and oddly hasn't gotten too much in the way of Monestary yet, which was why I originally didn't try it. Still running 2 Extirpates in board though. Will update later.

[Mister Agent]

I find blue blasts more relevant against aggro loam and goblins then Cop: red.

Against aggro loam:

Cop: red just sits on it's butt against devastating dreams and burning wish. Most of the time(unless under relevant circumstances) I find these spells a must counter and blue blasts fits that role perfectly. This is important to note considering both cards synergizes with the rest of the archetype.

Against goblins:

Boarding more answers for a first turn goblin lackey is a good enough reason to run more blue blasts obviously. Also killing a warchief before it becomes a major concern is also relevant. Not to mention that goblin players more then likely will have answers for cop: red postboard. Although, cop: red can force the goblin player to potentially over extend by increasing the assualt count which leads to making your board sweepers time walk agents. Which is a winning strategy but it is not a good idea to always depend on this situational tactic.

I also seen more aggro loam and goblin players board in blood moon effects as well. Which cop: red provides no answer for as previously stated by tacosnape.

[Frenger]

I find blue blasts more relevant against aggro loam and goblins then Cop: red.

Against aggro loam:

Cop: red just sits on it's butt against devastating dreams and burning wish. Most of the time I find these spells a must counter and blue blasts fits that role perfectly. This is important to note considering both cards synergizes well with the rest of the deck.

Against goblins:

Boarding more answers for a first turn goblin lackey is a good enough reason to run more blue blasts obviously. Also killing a warchief before it becomes a major concern is also relevant. Not to mention that goblin players more then likely will have answers for cop: red postboard.

I also seen more aggro loam and goblin players board in blood moon effects as well. Which cop: red provides no answer for as previously stated by tacosnape.

Not to mention blasts cost less mana and can be cast off a basic.

Oh yeah and the whole Dragon Stompy MU. BEB is online faster in that MU and can also destroy a magus or blood moon off of a basic.

I don't think the two can even be compared, BEB is just co much better than COP.

[Mister Agent]

I don't think the two can even be compared, BEB is just co much better than COP.

You don't say. However, people compare cards to other cards all of the time. Also people compare decks to other decks as well which is one of the reasons why a site like the source exists.

Obviously, blue blasts is much easier to splash considering landstill is a blue based deck afterall. Also having more spells that can be used as responsive agents to opposing spells is definitely good for a deck like landstill.

[Tinefol]

Question mainly to Tacosnape, as I'm running his 4c build, I'm building a sb for the tournament of a diverse metagame consisting of

4-5 Threshold
4-5 Burn
2-3 Goblins
1-2 Aggro Loam
3-4 Fast combo (Belcher and alike)
1-2 BW or BWG aggro (pikula/eva etc)
X unknown decks

I'm not really sure what I'm to put in, and if I need to make any changes maindeck.

as of now I'm only sure of 4 BEB 3-4 Meddling Mages. More blasts or COP:Red? Extirpate?

[Tacosnape]

Question mainly to Tacosnape, as I'm running his 4c build, I'm building a sb for the tournament of a diverse metagame consisting of

4-5 Threshold
4-5 Burn
2-3 Goblins
1-2 Aggro Loam
3-4 Fast combo (Belcher and alike)
1-2 BW or BWG aggro (pikula/eva etc)
X unknown decks

I'm not really sure what I'm to put in, and if I need to make any changes maindeck.

as of now I'm only sure of 4 BEB 3-4 Meddling Mages. More blasts or COP:Red? Extirpate?

4-5 Burn decks? Jesus. Take the following for that metagame.

4 Meddling Mage
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Engineered Plague
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Circle of Protection: Red

And for that tournament, change my maindeck to

-1 Extirpate
-1 Life From The Loam
+2 Relic of Progenitus

Mage/Blast/Cop: Red against Burn. Blast/Cop/Plague against Goblins. Relic helps against Threshold. Relic/BEB/Mage allll come in against Aggro Loam. Mage against combo, Relic for Ichorid, BEB for TES or Belcher. And you should do decent against BW aggro-control anyway.

[mossivo1986]

4-5 Burn decks? Jesus. Take the following for that metagame.

4 Meddling Mage
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Engineered Plague
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Circle of Protection: Red

And for that tournament, change my maindeck to

-1 Extirpate
-1 Life From The Loam
+2 Relic of Progenitus

Mage/Blast/Cop: Red against Burn. Blast/Cop/Plague against Goblins. Relic helps against Threshold. Relic/BEB/Mage allll come in against Aggro Loam. Mage against combo, Relic for Ichorid, BEB for TES or Belcher. And you should do decent against BW aggro-control anyway.

did I miss the discussion on relic being superior to pate? if so inform me. I mean it does kantrip but it does have the negative side effect of ripping your own grave.

[Tacosnape]

did I miss the discussion on relic being superior to pate? if so inform me. I mean it does kantrip but it does have the negative side effect of ripping your own grave.

There wasn't one. And Extirpate's probably still better. I won't be ditching mine anytime soon. But in that exact metagame he listed? Relic might have the edge, and if nothing else, a huge element of surprise. Keep in mind I've only been testing this a few days and I reserve the right in a week or so to go either "Relic sucks, never play it, here's why" or "Relic >> Extirpate, ditch Pate," but for now I'd say it's pretty close. Also keep in mind my assessments are strictly for non Cunning Wish builds. CW builds should probably stay with Extirpate unquestioningly.

Yes, it rips your own grave, which delays your ability to swing with Monestary. Which is why it probably wouldn't end up being run in a blind metagame unless you switched Monestary out for something else (Treetop Village, Mutavault, whatever.)

Relic's plus side is that if you aren't running Cunning Wish, it gives you a maindeckable yard answer, because it replaces itself if it's useless (At, as you say, the expense of your yard, which is why Loam has to be the other cut for it.) And it's a yard hate weapon that's insanely easy to cast in a 4-color shell. This could easily be 2 maindecked Relics and 2 sideboarded Extirpate, which is the configuration I'm actually trying currently.

[Pelikanudo]

has anybody a list of Landstill which kicks on the ass to whatever archetype of counterbalance decks ?

[klaus]

has anybody a list of Landstill which kicks on the ass to whatever archetype of counterbalance decks ?

3 Deed
3 EE
2-3 (xtra) Grips from the board.
should be enough to handle 3Top-4CB.dec

[Pelikanudo]

3 Deed
3 EE
2-3 (xtra) Grips from the board.
should be enough to handle 3Top-4CB.dec

could Anybody post A LIST please?

[Adan]

could Anybody post A LIST please?

Why don't you just browse through some Landstill Lists by yourself?

I have tried Taco's build with Engineered Explosives instead of Diabolic Edict. 4 Deeds and 3 Explosives should be enough.

This one: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=9303 without Edicts but with Explosives.

[i_need_the_extra_turns]

@Pelikanudo, U need a list,

here is my list:

Land + Manasources [23 + 1]

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Academy Ruins
1 Dust Bowl
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah

1 E-Dragon

Instants [20]
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Cunning Wish
2 Ponder

sorceries [2]
2 Decree of Justice


enchantments [9]
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Standstill
2 Humility

artifacts [5]
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Engineered Explosives

Some thoughts on the list:
-Yes, no 1-1 split between loam and CoW, because CoW is strong in the control-mirror, which is important in my meta.
-Ponder is THE perfect card for the deck and it's not so clunky like a Fact or Fiction.

My current sideboard:
4x Meddling Mage
4x Extirpate
1x Pulse
1x Enlightened Tutor
1x Plague
4x BEB

Well, I'm not happy with one matchup and I want to improve this.
-> Its The Fear.
Preboard its difficult to deal with Inituition on Loam + X. There for we need Wish for extirpate.
After Baording we have Extirpate main and they have grip's.

That is my Boarding plan:
-2 Cunning Wish
-1 X, maybe Ponder
+3 Extirpate

Well, I'm not totally happy with the boarding plan. What is with the mage? But it has a dissynergy with Humility.

[Frenger]

Heres my list

Land [24]
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Tolaria West
1 Academy Ruins
1 Dust Bowl
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah

Instants [19]
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Cunning Wish
3 Ponder

Sorceries [3]
2 Decree of Justice
1 Life from the Loam

Creatures [1]
1 Eternal Dragon

Enchantments [10]
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Standstill
2 Humility

Artifacts [3]
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Engineered Explosives

Sideboard [15]
4 Meddling Mage
4 Extirpate
3 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Seed Spark
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Tormod's Crypt



Well, I'm not totally happy with the boarding plan. What is with the mage? But it has a dissynergy with Humility.

You board mages in against combo. Guess what matchup you board out humilities in? (psst, it's combo)

[risethehandsofreason]

I recently brought a 4 color Landstill deck to a local tournament and, unfortunately, I really didn't have any fun with it. I played a list with 3 Cunning Wishes and my threats included factories (with 2 Crucibles main), 2 Decrees of Justice and 1 Eternal Dragon.

Other than using Cunning Wish, which, as a first-time user I found to be novel and satisfying, I had virtually no fun at all. The games were relatively drawn out and tedious (certainly due in part to my inexperience with the deck), and it seemed entirely possible to go to time in game one.

I am pretty certain that this is not the deck for me, and I am ok with that. I know that it is a competitive and versatile deck, and I can appreciate the archetype and the deck's well-reasoned construction. I just don't like playing it, it seems. So, I am wondering what people find enjoyable about the deck. How does it hold your interest? Any thoughts?

[Frenger]

I had virtually no fun at all. The games were relatively drawn out and tedious and it seemed entirely possible to go to time in game one.


Welcome to landstill my friend.

I have enough fun with this deck just watching my opponents frustration. I find it really enjoyable watching people get even more and more pissed off when i answer everything.

I also live for gamebreaking deeds and decrees. Not much is more satisfying than resetting the board, then dropping 10 soldiers down.

I love playing control though...

[Pelikanudo]

@Frenger
@ I need the extra turns
I really don't find in your builds any card that makes the deck a favourable deck vs counterbalance decks , The list I'm testing by now is this :

1 Eternal Dragon
instant [21]
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
3 Cunning Wish
4 Force of Will
3 SpellSnare
4 Swords to Plowshares
sorcery [3]

2 Decree of Justice
1 Life from the Loam

enchantment [9]
2 Humility
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Standstill

artifact [2]
2 Engineered Explosives

land [24]
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Plains
2 Polluted Delta
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
2 Dust Bowl // prefer because of the mirror as D.Geartheart said and because
//of the lack now of Stifle
60 cards

Sideboard:
4 Meddling Mage // mages are our lonely option to handle Storm COmbo
4 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Dismantling Blow // In here I'd like to take this boy out instead Krosan but... Duke is in the ritgh when says this helps to handle Moon effects
4 Extirpate
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Slaughter Pact
15 cards

Some variations on hte side are -1 REB + 1 Tsabo's decrees

I recognize that to dealing a c.b deck is quite difficult because all the match ups depends first, on the skill of our opponent and second wheter he gets to play a c.b , thats simple , and If we are supposed to play the best control deck in the format we for sure MUST win any deck with c.b , I mean I hate playing Landstill and face a c.b deck and loose miserably to a single c.b casted , I think the incorporation of Spell snare to the deck is inexorable ,it allows us to handle threats of cost 2 in the first turn and in second turn without danger that our opponent can have OR daze OR Snare-to-our-counterspell , situation which I tremendly hate .
Another point is that counterspell has been loosing effectivenes due to the large amount of S.Snares played, Stifle now is good to handle those Storm combo decks which are the same of difficult with or withouth 2 stifles, I recognize Sometimes saves us from wasteland-hate, but... thats the point I don't comfort .
Ideas , suggestions , onions?

[mossivo1986]

I recently brought a 4 color Landstill deck to a local tournament and, unfortunately, I really didn't have any fun with it. I played a list with 3 Cunning Wishes and my threats included factories (with 2 Crucibles main), 2 Decrees of Justice and 1 Eternal Dragon.

Other than using Cunning Wish, which, as a first-time user I found to be novel and satisfying, I had virtually no fun at all. The games were relatively drawn out and tedious (certainly due in part to my inexperience with the deck), and it seemed entirely possible to go to time in game one.

I am pretty certain that this is not the deck for me, and I am ok with that. I know that it is a competitive and versatile deck, and I can appreciate the archetype and the deck's well-reasoned construction. I just don't like playing it, it seems. So, I am wondering what people find enjoyable about the deck. How does it hold your interest? Any thoughts?

As Frenger a teammate of mine said, welcome to standstill.

Its one of those decks that you either absolutely love playing because of its open book of answers or you hate it because it feels like you move @ 2 mph.

As for me I personally love playing it because it runs the best cards in the enviornment and that the timing of the model I use allows you to roll over aggro and still keep a solid matchup against most control decks.

For referance heres Der's list with minor mod's that I added.
// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [UNH] Plains
1 [UNH] Island
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [4E] Mishra's Factory
1 [B] Scrubland
1 [B] Savannah
1 [B] Tropical Island
2 [B] Underground Sea
4 [B] Tundra
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
1 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [MM] Dust Bowl

// Creatures
2 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
2 [TE] Humility
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [JU] Cunning Wish
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [B] Counterspell
1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 2 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [RAV] Seed Spark

Dropped Crucible in favor of dragon number 2 which has been absolutely worth it. Crucible tends to be dead alot of times. "thanx Der"

Also top has been added to give me continued support which has been absolutely incredible for this. But I would never go more then one in this kind of a deck as its basicly a random score for the home team draw or an enlightened tutor target when standstill will be horrid for one.

[i_need_the_extra_turns]

@frenger

I like the ponder in your list, but I think 2 counterspell's are not enough. I mean we are the control deck and I think it's not the right way, that every random aggro-control deck plays more counters than we.
And I would prefer 3 EE and 3 deed because the EE are simply faster in same cases.

@risethehandsofreason
Well, u have to be a control player in your heart. I love landstill. Its just like: drop humility and ... "OOOH MY GOOOD - right in your face"^^

Balance was never a big issue for landstill. U have 6 outs for the balance + maybe wish for answer. Just drop a deed or a EE (pay 3). U got enough draw to find your answers...standstill or response with brainstorm.
Its only difficult when they have balance, sensei AND a CLOCK like a goyf. But this is still no gg.
When u play against ITF, maybe its more difficult because they can support CC up to three.

@mossivo1986
Well, your list looks nice. As I said above I prefer 3 EE and 3 Deed.
And I think 3 wish's are a bit clunky, maybe add another Ponder/sensei.
I will try a split 1 sensei /1 ponder in my list.
And I would play 2 tropical's and 1 u-sea because of your loam.

[risethehandsofreason]

Thanks for the honest responses. I thought that I was a control player at heart, in that I favor and most often run decks like UGb Threshold and Armageddon Stax, but I really didn't know what control was until trying Landstill. I learned my lesson.

I can definitely see the draw of playing all of the great options that this deck has. My problem seems to be with the marginal and slow finishers, I think. I'm just used to dropping a Tarmogoyf, Exalted Angel, or Terravore and being able to win in relatively quick time. This deck, however, requires the kind of patience that I just don't have. It's like playing Risk.

I plan to test Battlegrace Angel in Stax and I wonder, with the similar Mishra's Factory plan, if this card isn't an option for Landstill as well. My guess is that it is too conditional and not stable or powerful enough to make it into the deck.

[i_need_the_extra_turns]

@ risethehandsofreason
Ugb Thresh is aggro in addition to control. I often play thresh to relax a bit.
I like Geddon Staxx, too. But staxx can also go like a combo deck, just start with: Trini->staxx->CoW

But Landstill can finish very fast: just cycle EOT a decree for 8 tokens...something like that. But I agree, that will only happen in turn 24...

I dont think Battlegrace Angel has a chance in landstill. I would also prefer Exalted angel instead of the battlegrace angel, but its also to weak.
In the humility-based LS builds I see only room for a planeswalker and not for a creature other than the e-dragon. I would say, in 75% of your wins u have humility in play.

[Frenger]

@frenger

I like the ponder in your list, but I think 2 counterspell's are not enough. I mean we are the control deck and I think it's not the right way, that every random aggro-control deck plays more counters than we.
And I would prefer 3 EE and 3 deed because the EE are simply faster in same cases.


But so often counterspell is just not fast enough, or irrelevant because i'll be deeding away whatever they play.

If i was going to do anything to the counterspell slot, i would cut them for spell snare.

I like a 4/2 split in deed since i can fetch and reoccur EE, and deed kills more stuff in one swoop.

[Pelikanudo]

@Frenger
Do you think -2 stifles + -1 counterspell = +3 spellsnare as my list demonstrates is ok to handle those c.balance match ups? Is stifle the correct removed slot?

[Tacosnape]

Uh. Four Counterspells. Seriously. Cutting Counterspell for Spell Snare is an awful move. Landstill has to thrive on versatility in its spells because it has to answer everything. Counterspell is way, way, way more versatile than Spell Snare.

If you're having too much trouble with Counterbalance? Deed kills it, as will sideboarded Krosan Grips, as will Cunning Wish for your 3cc/4cc removal spell of choice, as will paying :u::u: and one mana of any other color for a Sunburst-2 Engineered Explosives. Force of Will and Counterspell work on occasion, too.

[Frenger]

@Frenger
Do you think -2 stifles + -1 counterspell = +3 spellsnare as my list demonstrates is ok to handle those c.balance match ups? Is stifle the correct removed slot?

Yes. I never liked maindeck stifle.

I beg to differ about counterspell tacosnape. I frequently would find i either couldn't cast my counterspell, or wanted it one turn ealier, or wanted my other land up for something else. Spell Snare, while not as versatile, has a lot of power in costing just one mana. You might want to try it out. I love it.

It also frequently comes out of left field when you're on the draw.

[landstill101]

Yes. I never liked maindeck stifle.

I beg to differ about counterspell tacosnape. I frequently would find i either couldn't cast my counterspell, or wanted it one turn ealier, or wanted my other land up for something else. Spell Snare, while not as versatile, has a lot of power in costing just one mana. You might want to try it out. I love it.

It also frequently comes out of left field when you're on the draw.

By taking out counterspell and adding spell snare, you help take the match to the late game which is where landstill thrives, but by doing so, you are taking out some of you security late game. Spell snare is used in decks like threshold because, they try to kill quick and need to stop things early so it doesn't get to late game, but landstill has thing such as deed and explosives to stop things that are dropped down that early and then you have counterspell to protect after a wipe, 4 counter spells is an auto include......
If you having problem getting the mana for counterspell then you need to re evaluate your manabase or play more on the conservitive side

[diffy]

My main reason for including Spell Snare was that I always felt Counterspell to be too clunky, especially with the sudden rise to popularity of Thrash decks in south-western Germany... and I never looked back.
In those Matchups, be it Ugr or Ugb Thrash or even Merfolk, you already have a hard time stabilizing under their Stifle/Wastelands even if they don't have much pressure to back it up. It gets even the worse if they can actually start putting you on a clock semi-early i.e. they have a Goyf/Dark Confidant or whatever other threat in the first 4-5 turns. The situation will most likely be that you are low on lands (1-3) and currently struggling to piece together your manabase with the help of Ponder/Brainstorm/Sensei's Divining Top which is your prime objective in this matchup - if you can stabilize your manabase in time you'll most likely win.
If you now have to keep two mana open for Counterspell, you can't dig for lands as effectively as if you only had to keep one mana open (d'uh) which slows your mana-development (and therewith game-development) quite a lot especially since you can't afford walking into Daze which makes you having to keep three lands open only to have the potential to play Counterspell which might then even walk straight into their Spell Snare... no good times. You just have been out-tempoed and will most likely proceed to loose: not only couldn't you advance your own gameplan, but also, all of a sudden, you're staring down a 3-4 turn clock.
Spell Snare, on the other hand, solves all these issues - it's not only immune to opposing Spell Snares but also allows you to use your mana in the earlygame for more constructive purposes i.e. developing your own gameplan instead of hindering your opponent's. This is especially important with the semi-recent adoption of Ponder and can also be adopted to other matchups than Thrash.
While testing Spell Snare, I soon realized that there's actually not a lot of important stuff that Spell Snare can't counter, or at least that in most matchups Spell Snare never is much worse than Counterspell: most of the time you're trading a little bit of flexibility for a gain in speed in the early game, the gain of speed being what counts as never mind how much you tweak the lists to have a good earlygame, you'll always have a better lategame than most decks out there due to Decree of Justice, Eternal Dragon, Cunning Wish, Nantuko Monastery, Pernicious Deed, Engineered Explosives etc.; it's 'Earlygame über alles' [/proof of Godwin's Law] for me: if you don't survive until the latagame, all your powerful bombs won't do anything either (change related to that philosophy: cutting Fact or Fiction for Ponder).
If you now play your Force of Wills a little more carefully than you'd usually do i.e play them only on threats you absolutely can't handle otherwise - you'll find this much easier with the adoption of a more early-game focused build as you have more tools to survive to the lategame and/or to fix your 'flow' (i.e. filter your draws to have the perfect curve till the lategame) which means that you don't need to counter that much stuff, there's little lost in cutting Counterspell.

An example amongst many others to illustrate the point: Spell Snare can't counter Aggro Loam's creatures, but it can get rid of the far greater threat (Burning Wish for Life from the Loam) under their Wastelands and without you having to fetch for double-blue early.

Disclaimer: please forgive if anything of the above isn't fully comprehensively formulated: I'm slightly high right now.

[BKclassic]

Wowee...

So I was playing a legacy Ugbw landstill deck for practice at my weekly local vintage tournament (but its pretty scrubby, some good players with limited collections, some players with good cards but random decks, many n00bs. A solid legacy deck should be good enough to win) and was running 4 Composts in the SB to deal with the Suicide Black deck that someone was bound to be playing.

Its a 4 round tournament and I don't drop a game to Vial Gobbos or Fiery Justice/Kavu Predator, then lose 2 straight to Psychatog. Round 4 I am paired against some guy with a foiled and Bazaared Ichorid deck. Game 1 is the obligatory blow out and I lose to a hoard of zombie tokens. Its time to sideboard so I go to reach for my Tormod's Crypts when I happen to actually read Compost and notice that dredged black cards trigger compost. I feel a sudden upwelling of excitement and greedily cram all 4 into my deck. We shuffle up and fate smiles upon me as Compost and 2 lands are in my opening 7. I say "land go" and he does some stuff and passes. On my turn, I cackle with glee as I lay a land and then windmill slam Compost onto the table. He reads it and dismally says, "I could've sworn you only drew a card when a black card is put into a graveyard from play." I smile smugly. Compost proves to be a 30 for 1 and I win handily. Game 3 is kinda close when I forgot how Bridge works and almost snatch defeat out of the jaws of victory. Fortunately, I topdeck Punishment and the card lives up to its name and he concedes with 7 cards in his library, nothing in play and no graveyard (thanks to Crypt).

Compost alone is probably not enough to stop Ichorid, so devoting 7-8 SB slots in total to beating the Ichorid match up is probably too much, but if you have a solid contingent of black decks and Ichorid in your meta, you HAVE to try this. Its pretty much the greatest thing ever. Also, I apologize in advance if playing Compost against Ichorid is well known tech, but I have never heard of anyone doing it before.

[mossivo1986]

My main reason for including Spell Snare was that I always felt Counterspell to be too clunky, especially with the sudden rise to popularity of Thrash decks in south-western Germany... and I never looked back.
In those Matchups, be it Ugr or Ugb Thrash or even Merfolk, you already have a hard time stabilizing under their Stifle/Wastelands even if they don't have much pressure to back it up. It gets even the worse if they can actually start putting you on a clock semi-early i.e. they have a Goyf/Dark Confidant or whatever other threat in the first 4-5 turns. The situation will most likely be that you are low on lands (1-3) and currently struggling to piece together your manabase with the help of Ponder/Brainstorm/Sensei's Divining Top which is your prime objective in this matchup - if you can stabilize your manabase in time you'll most likely win.
If you now have to keep two mana open for Counterspell, you can't dig for lands as effectively as if you only had to keep one mana open (d'uh) which slows your mana-development (and therewith game-development) quite a lot especially since you can't afford walking into Daze which makes you having to keep three lands open only to have the potential to play Counterspell which might then even walk straight into their Spell Snare... no good times. You just have been out-tempoed and will most likely proceed to loose: not only couldn't you advance your own gameplan, but also, all of a sudden, you're staring down a 3-4 turn clock.
Spell Snare, on the other hand, solves all these issues - it's not only immune to opposing Spell Snares but also allows you to use your mana in the earlygame for more constructive purposes i.e. developing your own gameplan instead of hindering your opponent's. This is especially important with the semi-recent adoption of Ponder and can also be adopted to other matchups than Thrash.
While testing Spell Snare, I soon realized that there's actually not a lot of important stuff that Spell Snare can't counter, or at least that in most matchups Spell Snare never is much worse than Counterspell: most of the time you're trading a little bit of flexibility for a gain in speed in the early game, the gain of speed being what counts as never mind how much you tweak the lists to have a good earlygame, you'll always have a better lategame than most decks out there due to Decree of Justice, Eternal Dragon, Cunning Wish, Nantuko Monastery, Pernicious Deed, Engineered Explosives etc.; it's 'Earlygame über alles' [/proof of Godwin's Law] for me: if you don't survive until the latagame, all your powerful bombs won't do anything either (change related to that philosophy: cutting Fact or Fiction for Ponder).
If you now play your Force of Wills a little more carefully than you'd usually do i.e play them only on threats you absolutely can't handle otherwise - you'll find this much easier with the adoption of a more early-game focused build as you have more tools to survive to the lategame and/or to fix your 'flow' (i.e. filter your draws to have the perfect curve till the lategame) which means that you don't need to counter that much stuff, there's little lost in cutting Counterspell.

An example amongst many others to illustrate the point: Spell Snare can't counter Aggro Loam's creatures, but it can get rid of the far greater threat (Burning Wish for Life from the Loam) under their Wastelands and without you having to fetch for double-blue early.

Disclaimer: please forgive if anything of the above isn't fully comprehensively formulated: I'm slightly high right now.


I think first off the wasteland/stifle thrash decks are pretty much non exhistant now that the meta is settling down again in the michigan area. I still see the occasional dragon stompy, but I might move to your new build and play it der. I like the ideas you presented, but I completely disagree with doing the spell snare slot UNLESS you were absolutely sure of it in a meta choice.

[Pelikanudo]

@DIF
Well my friend therefore do you think that the list about :
-2 stifles - 1 c.spell = +3 spellsnares could work on a c.b infested meta which are your suggestions or lists about a U/B/G/W Landstill to face and win those kind of match ups?
Thanks

[DuKeLiO]

I´ve not problem for beat CB+Top decks with my usual list with 4 counterspell and stifles. The best solution for win against this kind of decks if playing around Counterbalance.
Usually it is the best solution: Play flexible cards and play around wathever your opponent is trying to do. If you know that you are playing against Threshold play around Daze, Stifle and Spell Snare. Against Moon decks (whatever with Mage of the Moon or Blood Moon) play around it. Go for the basic lands and wait with your Stp and white mana untaped for the magus...
I really like my maindeck. I've not changed a single card of it from february and I continue going succesful in tourneys with this build and philosophy: play flexible cards than allow you to have a chance against any matchup, not weakening the deck with good answers against some decks than seems no play against other. It is the case of the 4C against the UWb list. Pernicious Deed is stronger against creatureless or creature light decks.

[mossivo1986]

Well its been fun kitties, but I'm switching over now to 3color to test a model with Der. Thanx for all the help and I appreciate all the advice.

The world forgetting by the word forgot.
-Alexander Pope

-Joel Ferris aka MoSs_BoSs

[Pelikanudo]

Well finally the place I usually go to play Maghic decided to post their Top 8 lists , I ve reached the 3rd position with this deck :
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20459

About the deck It has -2 Humility

The configuration of 3 snares 3 c.spell 2 dust bowls seemed to me to be perfect, the snares countered for example a 2nd turn survival starting my opponent, and the dust bowls 2 as minimum, I'll never go back for the wastelnds...
About the Ichorid Match up... how would you side? will you put in the 4 extirpates or you'll leave 1 in side for cunnin options?

[klaus]

Well finally the place I usually go to play Maghic decided to post their Top 8 lists

At anyone who didn't figure this out already: You can always volunteer to post the top8 yourself.

[Dark_Cynic87]

So is Elspeth being tested in 4c also? I've been watching the UBx thread and it's doing great in there. Is it possible here? I have one, and I'm like 8 cards shy of having my list ready to go. I'm going to try it, but I have no idea what to take out....

Also, what's best when it comes to EE/Deed splits? Preferable for the Dragon Stompy MU?

I understand that EE takes 3 to have virtually any effect (other than Jitte and post-SB Winter Orbs for EE @ 2), which means 3 kinds of mana, but I'm running a Plains and an Island, which would give me the possibility of an EE on 3 against a Moon effect. However, Deed is only 2 colors. The downside being that I don't run basics of those colors. Would it be best to go 3/3 or 4/2 Deed/EE respectively? Any thoughts? I have BEB/Hydroblast post-board (plus 2x Wishes), but as far as game one goes, I'd like to know your guys' thoughts on the matter.

How's the Ichorid matchup, and what's the first thing you extirpate? I normally hit Ichorids, and then DR's, but it really just depends on their dredges for me. If I'm doing something wrong, I'd like to know.

Also, against the AdN TES matchup, I'm assuming this is one of the worse matchups? If not, what do I do? Pulse of the Fields? Hope I have a counterspell?

Thanks, and...

Pce,

--DC

[mossivo1986]

So is Elspeth being tested in 4c also? I've been watching the UBx thread and it's doing great in there. Is it possible here? I have one, and I'm like 8 cards shy of having my list ready to go. I'm going to try it, but I have no idea what to take out....

Also, what's best when it comes to EE/Deed splits? Preferable for the Dragon Stompy MU?

I understand that EE takes 3 to have virtually any effect (other than Jitte and post-SB Winter Orbs for EE @ 2), which means 3 kinds of mana, but I'm running a Plains and an Island, which would give me the possibility of an EE on 3 against a Moon effect. However, Deed is only 2 colors. The downside being that I don't run basics of those colors. Would it be best to go 3/3 or 4/2 Deed/EE respectively? Any thoughts? I have BEB/Hydroblast post-board (plus 2x Wishes), but as far as game one goes, I'd like to know your guys' thoughts on the matter.

How's the Ichorid matchup, and what's the first thing you extirpate? I normally hit Ichorids, and then DR's, but it really just depends on their dredges for me. If I'm doing something wrong, I'd like to know.

Also, against the AdN TES matchup, I'm assuming this is one of the worse matchups? If not, what do I do? Pulse of the Fields? Hope I have a counterspell?

Thanks, and...

Pce,

--DC

the 3 color versions would for obvious reasons be an easier fit for elspeth. As for the four color version the only 2 slots replacable would be for humility. And honestly, what would you really have elspeth or humility.

[Dark_Cynic87]

As to the more important questions? Any thoughts?

[DuKeLiO]

If Dragon Stompy is played in your area a lot, I'd play with a 3/3 split if you have six slot to mass removal. I play with a 3/2 split and I think that is enough (I play with 3 wishes). EE is a lot better in the DS matchup beacuse you can remove a moon efect if you could fetched the two basic lands, and it removes chalice at @1 faster.

[Tacosnape]

Actually, if Dragon Stompy's played a lot, you're better off running less EE's, four Deeds (For the love of god, people, stop running less than four Deeds. You might as well go UBW in that case.), and more Diabolic Edicts. Here's why.

Dragon Stompy kills you in one of two ways:

1. It resolves a Moon effect where you don't have the means to remove it.
2. It Chalices for 1 and manages to overwhelm you with aggro before you can Deed away the Chalice/Threats and re-open your STP/Blue Elemental Blasts to being usable.

EE isn't going to help you stop a Moon until your third turn. At this point, Diabolic Edict is almost as good (Will stop a Magus by floating the mana), and Pernicious Deed is strictly better (Will take down the threats along with the Moon.)

Assuming you do stop Moon, Diabolic Edict will get rid of things like Dragon, Slogger, and Raiders morphed (And don't feed crap about killing an unmorphed Raiders with EE - This almost never happens due to them being able to discard and morph), whereas you'll have trouble killing any of those with EE tempo-wise (And you just flat out can't EE a Slogger.) Engineered Explosives' only real selling point in this match is that it gets rid of Chalice of the Void.

[bigbear102]

As to the Extirpating in the Ichorid matchup, I would say that Ichorid is usually a good choice, as it gives the deck its inevitability. Obviously each situation would be different though. Therapies are a good choice too that a lot of people don't think about. If they board out DR Therapy is one of only sac outlets they have to abuse bridge, aside from Ichorid obv.

AdN Tendrils/TES is a very difficult matchup. Personally, I board 2-3 Ethersworn Canonist and if playing black, already have 4 Thoughtseize, 4 Force, and 3-4 Counterspell. If you can get a Canonist in play then most of their protection won't be very effective. Just counter Burning Wish and you'll be fine. Bluffing Force should stop them from going off turn 1 due to needing protection, which will hopefully give you the chance to get Canonist into play.

[3duece]

So lately I've been running a list with a pair of vedalkan shackles, and so far I'm convinced that they're a great addition to the deck. Removal, faster clock, sad faces when you steal opposing goyfs, its golden.

4 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
4 tundra
2 tropical island
1 underground sea
1 savannah
1 scrubland
2 island
1 plains
4 mishra's factory
1 tolaria west

4 standstill
4 brainstorm
2 ponder
4 counterspell
4 force of will

4 swords to plowshares
2 decree of justice
2 humility

4 pernicious deed
3 engineered explosives
2 vedalkan shackles
1 crucible of worlds
1 life from the loam

4 hydroblast
3 tormod's crypt
3 krosan grip
3 extirpate
2 nevinyrral's disk

I basically cut a few of the colorless sources from the deck like dust bowl and ruins, they just weren't doing it for me, and I added the fourth tundra and second island to increase mana consistency and make shackles playable. Like I said, the shackles are great so far, it's almost like landstill finishes games now. Other than that I'm not sure the non-wish build gets much stronger than this, and this thread has been dead recently, so someone critique this list.

[DuKeLiO]

I really like Relic of Progenitus over Tormod's Crypt. Relic is useful against Threshold for example. I like it over Humility also in this matchup beacuse it does so little the critters and you can manage it easily, specially if his 9th-12th critters are Werebear or Mystic Enforcer. Also Relic are useful to play around Extirpates, removing the 4ofs that we play, avoiding being extirpated after.
Also I think than 23 lands are too little even running Ponder. I'd play at least one more.

[3duece]

So lately I've been running a list with a pair of vedalkan shackles, and so far I'm convinced that they're a great addition to the deck. Removal, faster clock, sad faces when you steal opposing goyfs, its golden.

4 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
4 tundra
2 tropical island
1 underground sea
1 savannah
1 scrubland
2 island
1 plains
4 mishra's factory
1 tolaria west

4 standstill
4 brainstorm
2 ponder
4 counterspell
4 force of will

4 swords to plowshares
2 decree of justice
2 humility

4 pernicious deed
3 engineered explosives
2 vedalkan shackles
1 crucible of worlds
1 life from the loam

4 hydroblast
3 tormod's crypt
3 krosan grip
3 extirpate
2 nevinyrral's disk

I basically cut a few of the colorless sources from the deck like dust bowl and ruins, they just weren't doing it for me, and I added the fourth tundra and second island to increase mana consistency and make shackles playable. Like I said, the shackles are great so far, it's almost like landstill finishes games now. Other than that I'm not sure the non-wish build gets much stronger than this, and this thread has been dead recently, so someone critique this list.

A few slight changes I made to the deck:
-1 tundra
-1 tolaria west
-2 humility (moved to board)

+1 underground sea
+2 nantuko monastery
+1 decree of justice

I figured without humility and four deeds one less white source and one more black source would be ideal. Decree is a house so I went back to three and monastery helps with a faster kill when the time comes and is a great blocker as this deck actually hits threshold pretty quickly.

[Pelikanudo]

@Duke

Well the other day I played the build with 3 snares 3 counterspell, and I faced 2 Agro loam decks , well the first agro loam match up was sooo easy for my opponent , he only needs to set up its loam- wastelnd engine to win me , he managed to play in both games the mox -acceleration , well I definately lost 0-2 with no - options; the other agro loam match up , otherwise I won him quite easily 2-0 ,
I found some troubles playing vs wasteland thats why I think the 2 stifles are needed , but I think the deck must have some kind of troubles vs for example It's the fear , at least if we face a good pilot.
I'd like you to tell me how do you side versus :
- Goblins ( suposing we have 3 REB ) to take out cunnin or c.spell?
- Agro loam (suposing he'll side veshing shuser , and maybe krosan grip)

The main goal I tryed was to improve the It's the fear match up adding 3snares and cutting 2 stifles 1 c.spell, however you're ritgh when you say wastelnds are not our friend and we NEED some antiwastelnd effect.

Another point I'd like you to answer to me is : there are many times I do not really what to do with my fetches-in-hand in fists turns: I mean you can have perni, humility and some other difficult casting cards which needs dual lands, you do not which kind of deck you re facing , I mean it can have stifle or wastend , therefore in this case what would you do with you're fetches-in-hand :
a) play fetch and pass turn
b) play fetch and search for your most needed dual
c) play fetch and search for basic.

the intuition tell me the a) is the correct because there are more wastelands than stifles in the current meta ritgh?

[aldaryn]

If all your colored sources early on are fetches, that requires more thought. But in general, I would play my fetches last, or at least fetch as late as possible, for two reasons.

1.) You have a good chance of drawing a dual, and then that will help you decide to what complementary land to fetch. So if you draw Underground Sea, you now know to get Savannah (if you play one) or Tropical Island / Tundra depending.

2.) You'd really like to do the fetching at the time you cast Brainstorm.

[3duece]

@Duke

Well the other day I played the build with 3 snares 3 counterspell, and I faced 2 Agro loam decks , well the first agro loam match up was sooo easy for my opponent , he only needs to set up its loam- wastelnd engine to win me , he managed to play in both games the mox -acceleration , well I definately lost 0-2 with no - options; the other agro loam match up , otherwise I won him quite easily 2-0 ,
I found some troubles playing vs wasteland thats why I think the 2 stifles are needed , but I think the deck must have some kind of troubles vs for example It's the fear , at least if we face a good pilot.
I'd like you to tell me how do you side versus :
- Goblins ( suposing we have 3 REB ) to take out cunnin or c.spell?
- Agro loam (suposing he'll side veshing shuser , and maybe krosan grip)

The main goal I tryed was to improve the It's the fear match up adding 3snares and cutting 2 stifles 1 c.spell, however you're ritgh when you say wastelnds are not our friend and we NEED some antiwastelnd effect.

Another point I'd like you to answer to me is : there are many times I do not really what to do with my fetches-in-hand in fists turns: I mean you can have perni, humility and some other difficult casting cards which needs dual lands, you do not which kind of deck you re facing , I mean it can have stifle or wastend , therefore in this case what would you do with you're fetches-in-hand :
a) play fetch and pass turn
b) play fetch and search for your most needed dual
c) play fetch and search for basic.

the intuition tell me the a) is the correct because there are more wastelands than stifles in the current meta ritgh?

The answer to recurring wasteland is not stifle, it is crucible of worlds/life from the loam and counterspell/spell snare/force of will. Game 1 against agroloam your job is to counter loam, always. Game 2 your job is to counter it and crypt/extirpate it. Without loam the recurring wastelands stop and their draw engine is shut off, so you just have to deal with their creatures, which our deck is designed to do.

ITF is a much more difficult match and revolves around counter/top. Don't let them get it. Our deck generates much more card advantage than them so don't let counter/top generate card advantage for them. Resolve pernicious deed first, we only need land on the board to deal damage.

[DuKeLiO]

I rarely side out Cunning Wish. Against Goblins I would side out 3 Counters for the 3 Bebs.
Against aggroloam I use to side in almost my entire sideboard:
+4 Meddling Mage
+3 BEB
+3 Relic of Progenitus
+2 Extirpate
-2 Humility
-1 Swords
-1 Pernicious Deed
-3 Cunning Wish
-2 Decree of Justice
-3 Counter Spell (only in your buil with 3 Snares. In mine I don`t side so many counterspells)

Usually the fetchs rule is not break it until you need. I only break is in the firsts turns only if I wait Stifle.

[Henrik]

I have't played landstill for ages, back when red and grim lavamancers were the shit. Looking at the lists posted here, I don't understand some of the common decisions made:

-Why do you prefer dust bowls over wastelands?

-Why do you split 1/1 between CoW and loam? Surely each player has an own opinion of which is the better card, but that in the same list use on of each just seems... strange?

[3duece]

I have't played landstill for ages, back when red and grim lavamancers were the shit. Looking at the lists posted here, I don't understand some of the common decisions made:

-Why do you prefer dust bowls over wastelands?

-Why do you split 1/1 between CoW and loam? Surely each player has an own opinion of which is the better card, but that in the same list use on of each just seems... strange?


Splitting between crucible and loam works well because traditionally landstill runs two slots for land recursion, but both crucible and loam are useless if drawn in multiples. By running one of each you can use them both in the same turn if both are drawn, they provide similar functions to each other on their own, and they help you dodge artifact hate, meddling mage and extirpate.

Dust bowl works better than wasteland in this deck because wasteland is a tempo card and this deck does not generate tempo. We use land destruction essentially as a game ender, usually locking the opponent out a color long enough to kill with lands and tokens. Dust bowl lets you kill a land a turn without crucible or loam, its just more efficient and purposeful in this deck than wasteland.

[Henrik]

Thank you 3deauce.

I think the dust bowl explanation is quite reasonable, but I am not buying the reasoning around loam/CoW. Personally, I am againt life from the loam in this deck for a couple of reasons. First, in the long run it is far more mana-intensive, and even though this deck don't play a lot of spells, we still want to activate land-abilities and keep mana up for counters. This is even more so if you use dust bowl instead of wasteland. Second, and most important, using loam in this deck (using as in dredging) neglects you the one per turn card-draw, as opposed to when used in a "loamdeck", where the constant dredging actually provides CA in the long run due to the use of cycle-lands. Third, a minor point, it seems like a pretty dead card under a standstill.

I am, as I stated, not an active landstill player (for now) so please be patient if you feel like you have to explain things for a 5-year old =) I would actually love to hear it.

[mossivo1986]

Your making excuses not to run it. Loam is strictly better in alot more situations where COW is not good in most situations. COW is almost always a dead draw if your not grabbing a mishra's or wastelocking your opponent out of the game. Dustbowl acts as a cow with wasteland at the cost of 1-1 your opponent at ability speed and you don't need to cast anything to get it going. Life from the loam is insane even without the cycle lands because it makes your drops consistent without the aid of a fetch. It also requires very little upkeep and when you need a win condition dredging for your mishra's take 1/3 the time that fetching for a crucible would take.

Bottom line if you dont like loam, then watch your mirror match take a huge plunge when they counter your crucible and start loaming it up all over the place. You also don't use or shouldn't use academy ruins in the 4c version so if you do lose your crucible in a counter war then your done for in the long run of things against the mirror.

[JRR]

I haven't really thought about it, but my Academy Ruins doesn't seem to be very useful most of the time. I can't recall the last time I needed it for its ability and not mana. I guess I just made room for another basic land.

[Bardo]

Your making excuses not to run it. Loam is strictly better in alot more situations where COW is not good in most situations. COW is almost always a dead draw if your not grabbing a mishra's or wastelocking your opponent out of the game. Dustbowl acts as a cow with wasteland at the cost of 1-1 your opponent at ability speed and you don't need to cast anything to get it going. Life from the loam is insane even without the cycle lands because it makes your drops consistent without the aid of a fetch. It also requires very little upkeep and when you need a win condition dredging for your mishra's take 1/3 the time that fetching for a crucible would take.

Bottom line if you dont like loam, then watch your mirror match take a huge plunge when they counter your crucible and start loaming it up all over the place. You also don't use or shouldn't use academy ruins in the 4c version so if you do lose your crucible in a counter war then your done for in the long run of things against the mirror.

I agree with you about Academy Ruins, a basic land is generally more useful over the stretch of a bunch of games. Recurring EE or Crypt is more of a 'cool idea' than really practical, because of the huge mana investment, loss of your draw step and inconsistency it add to your ability to play your spells. Pity too, because I love the art and have had Thresh opponents randomly scoop when I've had Ruins on the board and gesture to the EE in my yard; though, these are not necessarily good opponents.

About Crucible, when I play it, I'm happy just to regrow a spent fetchland every turn, that's worth the investment alone and gets really nutty if you have Top in play.

[mossivo1986]

I agree with you about Academy Ruins, a basic land is generally more useful over the stretch of a bunch of games. Recurring EE or Crypt is more of a 'cool idea' than really practical, because of the huge mana investment, loss of your draw step and inconsistency it add to your ability to play your spells. Pity too, because I love the art and have had Thresh opponents randomly scoop when I've had Ruins on the board and gesture to the EE in my yard; though, these are not necessarily good opponents.

About Crucible, when I play it, I'm happy just to regrow a spent fetchland every turn, that's worth the investment alone and gets really nutty if you have Top in play.

I absolutely agree with you bardo. In fact its something that I really disagreed with dif on top about. Heres my list for referance: Basicly dif's.

Now also keep in mind that I hadn't even thought about relic when I was playing this list and elspeth was just a thought in peoples heads and wasn't a standard in the 3c models yet. so minus that its pretty good.

// Lands
1 [UNH] Plains
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
1 [UNH] Island
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [B] Scrubland
1 [B] Savannah
1 [B] Tropical Island
2 [B] Underground Sea
4 [B] Tundra
1 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
2 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
4 [IA] Brainstorm
1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
4 [OD] Standstill
2 [TE] Humility
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
3 [JU] Cunning Wish
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [IA] Counterspell

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 2 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 1 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [RAV] Seed Spark
SB: 1 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
SB: 1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 3 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [7E] Engineered Plague


Now if I updated it now it would probobly look something like this.

// Lands
1 [UNH] Plains
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
1 [UNH] Island
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [B] Scrubland
1 [B] Savannah
1 [B] Tropical Island
2 [B] Underground Sea
4 [B] Tundra
1 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
4 [IA] Brainstorm
1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
4 [OD] Standstill
1 [TE] Humility
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
3 [JU] Cunning Wish
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
1 [IA] Counterspell
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [LRW] Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 2 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
SB: 1 [RAV] Seed Spark
SB: 1 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 3 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate

However alot of these changes are changes that make it look more like the 3c model that dif runs and I have also been playing heavily. The reason I would make the four color model look more like this is to improve the burn matchup as well as the canadian thresh and team america matchup. I haven't done anything at all to the mana base, and that probobly needs to have a bit of tweaking, I also cut one of the eternal dragons as it feels just like a dead slot / extra win condition, but I often find that i'd rather have something else then that. To be truthfull I don't know if i'll ever go back to four color now that I see how easy most matchups are with 3c. I don't really care if 4 c beats the 3 c in the mirror, how often does one play that matchup against someone whos played that matchup in particular. right? Anyways thoughts opinions?

[DuKeLiO]

I was testing the Tolaria West + Dust Bowl approach a few weeks, but for the real tournament I prefered Wasteland beacuse Dust Bowl is too mana intensive and too slow.
I'm not sure why you want wastelock oponents. I prefer to do my land drops to asure I will have the mana for what I will want. I rarely dredge LftL more than two times in a game, but they use to be enough. I usually can wait until the LftL will be very strong, bringing three of the lands I want. Also LftL is very useful when you have a little mana hand, almost any hand with fetch+land+LftL is keepeble beacuse Life will sure you the third land drop. Also LftL is useful against discard strategies, Hymn to Tourach and Hypnotic Specter, protecting your most valuable cards with useless lands.
This (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=21646) is my latest version.

[3duece]

So how come I hear so much talk recently about landstill being a dead archetype? That it should run tarmogoyf and counter/top but then it's not landstill anymore? That vorosh and ITF are the evolution of landstill and the older-school versions are no longer viable? Just wondering, because it seems landstill is still doing pretty well, maybe more so in europe, but it's still a DTB. Anyway, I keep reworking my list and I'm hoping to get some critiques on it. I've arrived at the conclusion that the utility lands are too much mana investment for not enough payout(no damage) and clog the rest of the manabase. A few pages back I explained why I gave up humility for vedalken shackles and it's still working out well. Anyway, here goes:
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Island
1 Plains
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Nantuko Monastery

4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Decree of Justice

4 Pernicious Deed
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Life From the Loam
2 Vedalken Shackles

[mossivo1986]

So how come I hear so much talk recently about landstill being a dead archetype? That it should run tarmogoyf and counter/top but then it's not landstill anymore? That vorosh and ITF are the evolution of landstill and the older-school versions are no longer viable? Just wondering, because it seems landstill is still doing pretty well, maybe more so in europe, but it's still a DTB. Anyway, I keep reworking my list and I'm hoping to get some critiques on it. I've arrived at the conclusion that the utility lands are too much mana investment for not enough payout(no damage) and clog the rest of the manabase. A few pages back I explained why I gave up humility for vedalken shackles and it's still working out well. Anyway, here goes:
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Island
1 Plains
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Nantuko Monastery

4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Decree of Justice

4 Pernicious Deed
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Life From the Loam
2 Vedalken Shackles

ts not dead, 4c is kind of out of the loop right now.

[DuKeLiO]

I continue winning with the 4C build without Tarmogoyf or Counterbalance. I won 4 Foil Tarmos three weeks ago, and someone top8ed two weeks ago with another build here in Madrid.
It's a very configurable deck for almost any enviroment, and it will keep on change and adapting through the time.

[3duece]

Yeah, I think landstill is just a little down in america right now. ITF and Dreadstill are the more popular control decks at the moment, we don't really have a big weissman.dec for now, maybe UW w/Elspeth.

[rockout]

I see a lot more Dreadstill in the Northeast meta than Landstill. Which is fine for me, I don't mind playing against Dreadstill at all. Dreadstill just has a faster clock with Dreadnaught than tradition, slower Landstill. I usually get laughed at for running Elspeth. Thanks to you European players for keeping Landstill in the DTW/DTB forum.

[mossivo1986]

So just to give a brief little summary. I've been missing 4 color alot lately. I miss deed, I miss LFTL, I miss it all. Seed spark oh how I <3 the.

Anyways I put together a sort of combination of dif's 3c and 4c build and ran it to see how it might do. I was impressed and unimpressed. Heres the list.

// Lands
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [UNH] Plains
3 [UNH] Island
4 Tundra
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
1 [B] Underground Sea
1 [B] Scrubland
1 [B] Tropical Island
1 [B] Savannah
1 [MM] Dust Bowl

// Creatures
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [LRW] Ponder
2 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [TE] Humility
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
3 [JU] Cunning Wish
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Standstill

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [RAV] Seed Spark
SB: 3 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 2 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 1 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus [B]<-------- remove one and add a second pate
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields

first off I would change one relic for an additional pate. Pate is soo good pre board against nasty control decks or random jank, and when you hit the second one it really comes in handy. Yes the more relic the marrier, but honestly I can tell you that I would rather have access to two pate pre then have to risk loosing a game to some graveyard shenanigans.

second off. I like swapping the sensei's devining top for ponder number 3. I love the synergy with elspeth and deed, I like the 3-3 split between deed and wish, as im never sick of getting two wishes, but im always sick of getting 2 deeds. I like the added basics in the maindeck but I do not like the configuration quite yet. 2 dragon plus 5 fetch = 7 searchable land fixing early, and 1 extra win condition later. the 2nd dragon replaces crucible which is as dif said a dead card and landstill does have a window to win in unlike what some people say. I dislike how weak 4c is against stifle. It seems like besides humility and elspeth everything else can get wrecked soo easily. that said theres simply too many stiflable activations to really know which one is the best to hit. so lets break the deck down really quick like:


Lands: 23
Win conditions: 9
draw: 14
Counter: 6
removal: 10
Other: 1


So to explain this a bit lets start with win cons since the deck plays a pretty standard amount of lands. It has 3 mishra 2 elspeth 2 decree and 2 eternal dragon. This is 3 more win conditions then normal landstill builds have I believe and personally I always fealt in my testing that I had control of the direction of the game. When I needed the game to end, it ended quickly and effeciently thanks to the additional pressure I was able to put on via tempo win conditions that are someone inevitable.

draw. The draw in this model like difs 3c is rediculous. Dif and I had a discussion and he brought up some interesting points that he was liking 4c less and less because of its inability to both rebutle and main control of games early mid and late, and also the lack of game win conditions. The 3 color model uses the theory that the more of my deck I see earlier then my opponent the more likely I am to draw a worthwhile answer, or simply shuffle my deck. This theory holds strong in this model as there are more shuffle effects and better overall choices because it is afterall 4c. I won go into great detail about the draw spells except that I feel like a 3-3 split with deed and wish was necessary. I love 3 wish in 4c and I hated 4 deed in 4 color as I almost always hit 2, which pisses me off :(.

Counter magic is light in this model for many reasons. The main change is the drop of counterspell in coordination with deeds ability to make board positions go buh bye and the excessive drawing you have will 9x out of 10 but you in a better position then having that 1-2 counterspells a game. Bottom line this more is more answer intensive and less im going to "control" the game. The addition of spell snare is also part of difs 3c model and I believe the correct split against challice is as he has 2snare 3explosives 4 force, but unfortunately I couldn't find room for a 3rd ee nor is it truly that necessary as you have 3 deed plus enlightened tutor via wish if you absolutely have to have it.

So I guess I would like help in tightening this list via the landbase and the 4 drops. I like the way its all set up but I have a small feeling my 4drops may be a bit too heavy.

[aTn]

Two Landstill builds made the top8 of Beta Duals (Top8: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=301645&postcount=73) and I was wondering what you guys thought of them ? In particular, I'd like to know your take as to why some specific card choices were made.

1st Alix Hatfield

4 brainstorm
4 standstill
3 fact or fiction
3 Sensei's tops

4 force of will
4 counterspell
4 swords to plowshares
4 pernicious deed
1 vindicate

4 tarmogoyf

4 mishra's factory
2 nantuko monastery
4 polluted delta
4 flooded strand
4 tropical island
3 tundra
3 underground sea
1 scrubland

s.b.
4 blue elemental blast
4 engineered plague
4 counterbalance
2 krosan grip
1 vindicate

This list runs 10 threats (but adding Top and playing 3 FoF probably helps to get them when needed). Playing CB in the SB might be a good call in a Dreadstill, Threshold, etc. infested environment.

Splashing white to play StoP seems like a good idea to answer fatties (in particular when a lot of Team America - i.e. Tombstalkers - lurk around).

Monastery (with Goyf) looks like a good way to speed the deck's clock, while Vindicate is obviously a universal removal spell answering in particular (with a good chance of success) CBalance, recursion engines (like V. Stronghold in ITF), Seismic Assault (Loam) and a ton of other stuff (including the occasionnal 'I didn't plan to see any of card X at the tournament').

Question: Is the white splash worth it ? The manabase has no basic lands. I guess LD could be a problem (but running Brainstorm, Top and 8 fetches might smooth things a little). This list might struggle against decks running Moon effects (D. Stompy, Moon Thresh) - knowing that these match-ups are not very probable in the particular metagame might be a good idea before playing the deck at a tournament.

4th Kyle Humphres

4 brainstorm
4 standstill
2 fact or fiction

4 force of will
3 counterspell
3 spell snare
3 stifle
3 thoughtseize

3 diabolic edict
3 engineered explosives

4 tarmogoyfs
3 tombstalker

4 polluted delta
2 flooded strand
3 underground sea
3 tropical island
2 island
1 swamp
3 wasteland
3 mishra's factory

s.b.
3 pernicious deed
3 engineered plague
3 hydroblast
3 tormods crypt
3 extirpate

This build also runs 10 threats but is removal light (no Deeds maindeck in particular). This lack of removal is balanced by a bigger disruption package (in particular by playing Thoughtseize).

Is 3 Edicts + 3 EE maindeck enough to answer most threats in the meta ? Is this lack of removal causing the deck to lose match-ups it would otherwise win (e.g. random aggro, Merfolk) ? Should Spell Snare be replaced by some form of disruption or removal with a larger scope of potential applications (e.g. - 3 Snare, +3 Deed) ? Does adding proactive control (Thoughtseize) contradict the fact that the deck sometimes wants a hard counter on turn 2 (i.e. Counterspell) - I guess Spell Snare was added to partially answer this ?

[Tacosnape]

So after months of testing, I have a new 4C build. I tried virtually everything to give me outs to things I couldn't handle, like Cunning Wish, as well as giving me more maindeck kill conditions than just my six lands, ranging from Planeswalkers to Goyf to Stalker to Shriekmaw to Living Wish. Finally, after deciding that most of my problems could largely be solved by Meddling Mage and Spell Snare, and after coming to the conclusion that thanks to Ad Nauseam, Stifle now blows, here's what I'm running.

4 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Nantuko Monestary

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Fact or Fiction

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Diabolic Edict
2 Engineered Explosives

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Meddling Mage

SB:
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Spell Snare*
3 Extirpate
2 Engineered Plague*
2 Krosan Grip
*(I run 3/3 if I anticipate Goblins/Ichorid or other Plague-hurt decks)

What's Gone From My List:
1. Stifle. Stifle shined against Wasteland, Witness, and Combo decks. It doesn't do the last one so much anymore. So regrettably, it had to go. Mage maindeck keeps the blue count for Force high.

2. The singleton maindeck Life From The Loam. Four maindeck threats makes recursion less necessary. Additionally, you'll want to Mage for Loam sometimes in game 1. And Snare is awesome against black LD nuisances like Sinkhole and Smallpox.

3. Crime // Punishment. With less 1-drops due to Stifle being gone, turn one EE for 1 is all the better. Plus, Crime, while insanely cool, is less necessary with me now having more maindeck kill conditions.

4. The fourth Tropical. No maindeck Loam means the seventh fetchland is better.

What's New:
1. Maindeck Meddling Mage. If you know what you're doing, game one Mages are hot. Shines against lots of random stuff and is rarely dead. Can name Swords midgame if your opponent's built up a hand full of them. Helps against trouble cards, like Life From The Loam, Blood Moon, Back to Basics, etc. Requires a high knowledge of the format and ability to deduce what an opponent's holding (Based on how long he's been holding it, what he's done in certain situations, what his deck is, etc.) or what card could hurt you the most.

2. Quad Snare in sideboard. Snare does two things: Costs you games by being narrow, and wins you games by being incredible. You'll bring it in to help stop everything from Survival of the Fittest to Counterbalance to Smallpox and Sinkhole to Chalice for 1 to Wishes to virtually every combo deck in existence to whatever. Knowing when to board it in and for what takes practice.

What I Tested And Cut For Various Reasons:
1. Stifle. Snare was more versatile.
2. Orim's Chant. See above.
3. Anti-Burn / Lifegain cards. Meh.
4. Sideboard Life From The Loams. Snare generally does enough, I think.
5. Jace Beleren. If he had flash or everybody ever didn't run Bolt/Chain, he'd totally be better than Fact or Fiction.
6. Tarmogoyf/Tombstalker. Neat, but still just a guy. At least Mage solves problems, and in a pinch can survive when an opponent's built up three or four STP's all game.
7. Cunning Wish / Decree of Justice / Humility / Etc. All very good, but don't suit the way I play Landstill, which isn't the UW style.

What's On The Bubble / Needs Further Testing:
1. Thoughtseize. I keep wanting it in my sideboard. It's possible it could battle any combination of Spell Snare and Krosan Grip, the general LVP of the board, for additional spots.

So there you people go, who've been wanting a fix of this style Landstill. It does still function.

[Nihil Credo]

1) What don't you want to board in Snare against? I can only think of Goblins and Ichorid.

2) Did you ever test Vendilion Clique? Meets similar criteria as Meddling Mage (disruption + body + blue count). I'm loving this guy in every control deck I cram him in. Both Flash and the two sides of his 187 are great abilities.

3) Is it worth running 2 Plagues at all (3 is more reasonable)? A huge reason behind their effectiveness was the hard-lock that a double-Plague is against Goblins, but that shouldn't happen much as a 2-of. Plus, Goblin players rightfully love their Grips these days, and let's not talk about Elves. Unfortunately, I don't have much to suggest in the way of alternatives. Hail Storm and Plague Spitter are all that come to mind.

[Tacosnape]

1) What don't you want to board in Snare against? I can only think of Goblins and Ichorid.

Goblins, Ichorid, Faerie Stompy, Dragon Stompy, and a lot of control decks you could handle otherwise, as while there will be targets, often there won't be enough and you can be stuck holding a Snare. Alternately, there are some decks where I'll only board Snare in against when they're going first, as when I'm going first I can stop anything I can Snare by making my second land drop and getting down a Mage or having mana for a Counterspell first, whereas Snare on the draw is godly.



2) Did you ever test Vendilion Clique? Meets similar criteria as Meddling Mage (disruption + body + blue count). I'm loving this guy in every control deck I cram him in. Both Flash and the two sides of his 187 are great abilities.

Ehhh. I did. I wasn't all that sold. He's neat, he's cool, he just feels like he doesn't save my ass in any games. Mage feels like he saves my ass in games. It's entirely possible that I play Mage far better than I play Clique (I'm amazing with name a card spells and have won tournaments off blind Mages and Therapies, but probably only average with Clique Trickery). I just didn't see the power of Clique though.



3) Is it worth running 2 Plagues at all (3 is more reasonable)? A huge reason behind their effectiveness was the hard-lock that a double-Plague is against Goblins, but that shouldn't happen much as a 2-of. Plus, Goblin players rightfully love their Grips these days, and let's not talk about Elves. Unfortunately, I don't have much to suggest in the way of alternatives. Hail Storm and Plague Spitter are all that come to mind.

Yes, but like I said, three might be better in some metagames. The reason the Plague is still worth it, even against Goblins alone, is that when you drop it and they grip it, you're still usually going to pick up a Goblin or two in the process, as any 1-toughness guys on the board go down the tubes. If Krosan Grip is a problem, you can always Mage it (I leave 2 in against Goblins), or just chalk it up to being one less they're throwing at your Pernicious Deeds.

Plague also bails your ass out in some random games. I use it against Ichorid to huge success. I've been known to board a pair in and get it on Soldiers against UW Landstill. Helps against all kinds of random crap. Plagues are worth it even as 2 of (I can't ever think what else I'd want those two slots to be). Go 3/3 with it and the Snares if your metagame warrants, or just cut the Krosan Grips and add a Plague and whatever else.

[3duece]

I'm taking this to chicago:

4 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
3 tundra
2 tropical island
2 underground sea
1 savannah
1 scrubland
2 island
1 plains
4 mishra's factory
2 nantuko monastery

4 standstill
4 brainstorm
2 fact or fiction
4 counterspell
4 force of will
2 spell snare

4 swords to plowshares
4 pernicious deed
2 decree of justice
2 engineered explosives
2 vedalken shackles
1 crucible of worlds
1 life from the loam

4 hydroblast
3 krosan grip
3 tormod's crypt
2 relic of progenitus
2 circle of protection: red
1 crucible of worlds

The decks plays very strong and I like it without cunning wish. I figure the roughest matchups will be burn based decks (burn, goyfsligh and boros) and graveyard strategies (namely dredge and aggroloam) as well as team america, so:
4 hydroblast: an out to moon effects, stops all goblins, dragons, burning wish, devastating dreams, seismic assault and empty the warrens.
3 krosan grip: comes in for decks with top (both counterbalance and confidant), stax pieces and opposing deeds.
3 tormod's crypt/2 relic of progenitus: the split is because I know dredge will bring in needle for crypt because I'm not running enough black to bring in chain of vapor for leyline, so they'll have to land two needles to be safe which won't happen before I can counter one and/or destroy the other. I also love relic because it dwarfs tarmogoyf and terravore.
2 circle of protection: red: I love this card against any burn based strategy with creatures or not. It's better than counter/top against them because it's one card, one less mana and the same activation as top, but it also shuts off red creature damage. I'm not sure how red wins with this on the table since I'll always have mana superiority.
1 crucible of worlds: this is for team america. I figure if I nullify their land destruction they lose alot of tempo and I should gain enough momentum to counter thoughtseize and land a deed and/or standstill. Still not sure about this, haven't tested it yet.

[mossivo1986]

I'm taking this to chicago:

4 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
3 tundra
2 tropical island
2 underground sea
1 savannah
1 scrubland
2 island
1 plains
4 mishra's factory
2 nantuko monastery

4 standstill
4 brainstorm
2 fact or fiction
4 counterspell
4 force of will
2 spell snare

4 swords to plowshares
4 pernicious deed
2 decree of justice
2 engineered explosives
2 vedalken shackles
1 crucible of worlds
1 life from the loam

4 hydroblast
3 krosan grip
3 tormod's crypt
2 relic of progenitus
2 circle of protection: red
1 crucible of worlds

The decks plays very strong and I like it without cunning wish. I figure the roughest matchups will be burn based decks (burn, goyfsligh and boros) and graveyard strategies (namely dredge and aggroloam) as well as team america, so:
4 hydroblast: an out to moon effects, stops all goblins, dragons, burning wish, devastating dreams, seismic assault and empty the warrens.
3 krosan grip: comes in for decks with top (both counterbalance and confidant), stax pieces and opposing deeds.
3 tormod's crypt/2 relic of progenitus: the split is because I know dredge will bring in needle for crypt because I'm not running enough black to bring in chain of vapor for leyline, so they'll have to land two needles to be safe which won't happen before I can counter one and/or destroy the other. I also love relic because it dwarfs tarmogoyf and terravore.
2 circle of protection: red: I love this card against any burn based strategy with creatures or not. It's better than counter/top against them because it's one card, one less mana and the same activation as top, but it also shuts off red creature damage. I'm not sure how red wins with this on the table since I'll always have mana superiority.
1 crucible of worlds: this is for team america. I figure if I nullify their land destruction they lose alot of tempo and I should gain enough momentum to counter thoughtseize and land a deed and/or standstill. Still not sure about this, haven't tested it yet.

You might want to split 2-2 hydro and blue elemental blats against extirpate.

[Elf_Ascetic]

Hey folks,

Give some (very well argumented) thoughts about the following list. It's our Team's 3C Giftstill list. We feel that Cunning Wish is more like "finding an answer for 3 extra mana" than a "win now" card. Gifts Ungiven does exactly what this deck needs: softlocking your opponent instantly, and finding a fast wincondition. Garruk is a incredible card, but you all figured that out, I'm sure. It can overrun the opponent in a single turn, what comes in handy versus some fast aggro or even combo.

1 Eternal witness
1 shriekmaw
2 spell snare
2 counterspell
2 mana leak
4 force of will
3 gifts ungiven
4 brainstorm
1 diabolic edict
1 engineered explosives
1 Damnation
4 pernicious deed
4 standstill
1 life from the loam
1 innocent blood
1 smother
2 Garruk wildspeaker
4 polluted delta
3 flooded strand
3 underground sea
3 tropical island
1 bayou
1 island
1 swamp
4 mishra's factory
1 wasteland
1 academy ruins
1 volrath's stronghold
1 barren moor
1 lonely sandbar

Sideboard:
2 blue elemental blast
2 hydroblast
4 leyline of the void
1 gigapede
3 krosan grip
3 extirpate

[Mantis]

So, I guess I'll be the one to make the obvious question: Why Gifts over Intuition? Being able to Intuition for 3 Forces or 3 Pernicious Deeds would seem to make it the better pick. The difference in cardadvantage is easily made up by the Loam engine anyway and the fact that it can be cast sooner.

[Nihil Credo]

Your manabase looks desperately greedy. I see a huge chance of Damnation, Witness and Garruks getting stuck in your hand given your manabase - using Gifts Ungiven as manafixing is really slow and a waste of a powerful card. If what I am saying is correct, either replace those spells with single-coloured cards (possibility: Chainer's Edict, Regrowth, Crucible of Worlds) or cut back on the basic and colourless lands.

Leyline of the Void is also the worst graveyard hate for a control deck - you hate to mulligan for it, and you can't Brainstorm into it on turn 1. If you need to supplement Extirpate, use Relic of Progenitus (or Crypt, or a split of the two).

Also, I like Prohibit more than Mana Leak in the current Legacy format (again, especially in a control deck). Maybe you'll like it too.

[mossivo1986]

Your manabase looks desperately greedy. I see a huge chance of Damnation, Witness and Garruks getting stuck in your hand given your manabase - using Gifts Ungiven as manafixing is really slow and a waste of a powerful card. If what I am saying is correct, either replace those spells with single-coloured cards (possibility: Chainer's Edict, Regrowth, Crucible of Worlds) or cut back on the basic and colourless lands.

Leyline of the Void is also the worst graveyard hate for a control deck - you hate to mulligan for it, and you can't Brainstorm into it on turn 1. If you need to supplement Extirpate, use Relic of Progenitus (or Crypt, or a split of the two).

Also, I like Prohibit more than Mana Leak in the current Legacy format (again, especially in a control deck). Maybe you'll like it too.

for card advantage in landstill I really like the following set up

4bstorm
2ponder
1top
2wish
4standstill

Its works incredibly well for me.

[Tacosnape]

You need actual real card advantage in this style of Landstill. You need something to supplement Standstill that actually nets you card advantage, which SDT, Ponder, and Cunning Wish, while all good, don't. Fact or Fiction serves this role etremely efficiently, as does Jace Beleren, as do a few other random things (Like an Intuition/Loam Engine).

[3duece]

Fact or fiction is really the best draw spell this deck has access to outside of standstill, I've never been comfortable without it. I don't understand the inclusion of wish in this deck. It's card disadvantage to get answers you'll rarely need in the first place (except maybe pulse vs. burn) and it forces you to hack up your sideboard. I've found that the maindeck has plenty of answers to most everything, I just need to play enough to draw to make sure my hand is always full of them.

[rockout]

Fact or fiction is really the best draw spell this deck has access to outside of standstill, I've never been comfortable without it. I don't understand the inclusion of wish in this deck. It's card disadvantage to get answers you'll rarely need in the first place (except maybe pulse vs. burn) and it forces you to hack up your sideboard. I've found that the maindeck has plenty of answers to most everything, I just need to play enough to draw to make sure my hand is always full of them.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

[mossivo1986]

Fact or fiction is really the best draw spell this deck has access to outside of standstill, I've never been comfortable without it..
This quote has to coordinate to th next one to make my point, but they do need to be seperate for you to understand where i'm comming from.



I don't understand the inclusion of wish in this deck. It's card disadvantage to get answers you'll rarely need .

Wish is multi-dimentional and realisticly it's not card disadvantage, its just mana intensive there is a big difference.

You saying it gets you answers youll rarely need means that

a. youve done minimal to no testing with wish.
b. you don't understand how to play the versions that abuse library manipulation vs you do understand how to out raw dog card advantage with cards; that your opponent gets to organize, which is almost never going to be in the favor that you want it to be in.
c. you just don't like wishes period? Your not a toolbox player?

Bottom line saying that you think wish is bad is understandable, but saying wish is rarely needed is idiocy. The idea is that wish is always good. Thats why whish sideboards are always small enough to give space to your other sideboard slots, while giving you answers preboard against decks that you want to win against pre board:

like
ichorid, burn, tempo thresh, mono black discard.

The list goes on and on. The inclusion of wish pre board makes your winning percentages to these decks dramaticly increase, even if you already consider any of these matchups favorable it deffinately makes a big difference in your card manipulation vs raw drawing from the top every turn.

As a personal advocate or the cunning wish still mod's and a very good "toolbox" style of player I can tell you i've had VERY good success with these type of decks.

If you need to see a typical wish board here is mine

enlightened tutor
return to dust/ seed spark "depends on the color arangements im using."
Extirpate
pulse of the fields

also reachable:
blue elemental blast/ hydroblast.



in the first place (except maybe pulse vs. burn) and it forces you to hack up your sideboard. .

Hack up your sideboard? I guess anytime someone uses four slots the way I wouldn't particularly agree with i'm going to say they hack up their sideboards!

Cunning wish is good against everything because of the access to additional business spells in the main and its ability to draw answers to problematic situations.

Like I said either you don't know and your just talking negative about library manipulative models, or you know very little and your pure and simple just stating that a 4cc spell that your never going to resolve against aggro control, combo, or virtually and deck that and anyways your wrong for saying they are hacking up landstills sideboards with the mass amount of success people have had with them, vs 4 color which is all but extinct as a top contender. Yes I saw he recent lists, but they were absolutely dramaticly different and strictly inferior to the lists we were playing just last year. Or atleast lists I was playing last year :).



I've found that the maindeck has plenty of answers to most everything, I just need to play enough to draw to make sure my hand is always full of them.

Ok well good luck with that. I don't need cards in hand at all times to win this game, I need library manipulation to control my top decks, which consistently get me to the top. I hope the same works for you with your playstyle.

[3duece]

Haha, okay, okay. Maybe I was a bit harsh, let me explain myself more clearly.

First, unless I'm missing something which is absolutely possible, all of your wish targets are one-for-one except pulse of the fields. Spending two cards to deal with one of your opponent's cards is card disadvantage as I understand it. Fact or Fiction is maybe a little unpredictable, but in most of the games I've used it in since I played the solution in invasion standard, if fact or fiction is giving you card disadvantage it's because your opponent gave you a 1/4 and the 1 wins the game.

Two, I have tested wish. Now, in my opinion, the idiotic thing to do would be to just say I thought it was bad with no reasoning behind it. My reasoning is that I have found that, again except for pulse, just being able to get one return to dust or one extirpate in a game is rarely enough to improve the matchup. Against ichorid, for example, if I can't hit enough swords and explosives I'd rather just go to game two and be able to board in significant hate like multiple extirpates, crypt and relic and have reliable draw to get them.

Third, I'm not sure if I'm a 'good' toolbox player or not. I definitely have experience with the style, I played intuition rec/sur in rath constructed and the original extended oath deck with enlightened tutor that landstill evolved from in the first place (although I had about six years off after that, so I'm not sure my experience is too relevant anymore).

Lastly, I know you were being sarcastic but I truly do think its just a difference in playstyles. By hacking up the sideboard I meant I would rather play multiple copies of hate and have the maindeck draw to keep it flowing, where you would rather have a wishboard, which is certainly fine too.

Anyway, sorry if there was any misunderstanding. Happy holidays.

[3duece]

Also, the list I'm taking to chicago is on this page or the last. Your opinion would be most helpful.

[mossivo1986]

Also, the list I'm taking to chicago is on this page or the last. Your opinion would be most helpful.

As sarcastic as that post sounded I was more just insulted then anything else. I didn't mean to sound sarcastic and I meant every word when I said you prefer CA and I prefer deck manipulation.

Which is why I <3 tolaria west
which is why I <3 wish
which is why I <3 enlightened tutor ect.

I will look at your list and i'm sure its great. I just was alittle upset at the way you said things, as I am sure you might have been pretty upset with me.

I understand what your saying about the sb now more then I did, but this is my theory.

If I as a player can benefit myself preboard an advantage that will win me game 1, as a landstill player I can efficiently win g2 most of the time and even if I cannot landstill has this natural affinity for making games last longer then it really should just by all the rediculously effecient removal effects it runs. This leads me to believe that

IF I can win game 1
and im loosing game 2 I can either take it to time just by dragging out landstills rediculously long list of answers while still playing the game without taking extensive amounts of time to stall.

This to me is really a HUGE advantage in the pre board against other control decks. In the aggro control matchup to me its also usefull, and against pure aggro its win/ lose anyways, but more then likely i'm going to be doing what I want post board anyways as the 4 cards I would normally switch in im more then likely swapping wishes for 1-2 of them plus something like ajani or runed halo.

To me this is the theory.

Now in testing this is what tends to happen when the matchups are absolutely blow for blow unless I just plain top deck better. In matchups Im destined to lose like merfolk theres really nothing one can do but just hope for EP and some timely counters in hand.

Ill look at your list and repost.

[mossivo1986]

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Island
1 Plains
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Nantuko Monastery

4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Decree of Justice

4 Pernicious Deed
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Life From the Loam
2 Vedalken Shackles


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [R] Tropical Island
2 [R] Underground Sea
1 [R] Savannah
1 [R] Scrubland
1 [ALA] Island (1)
1 [ALA] Plains (1)
3 [4E] Mishra's Factory
1 [JU] Nantuko Monastery
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
4 [B] Tundra

// Creatures
3 [PS] Meddling Mage
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [CST] Brainstorm
2 [IN] Fact or Fiction
1 [7E] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [LRW] Ponder
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [IN] Fact or Fiction
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 1 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [PS] Meddling Mage


So lets start with the lands:

a landstill list without dustbowl in the mirror is dead in the water. It's an auto include in all lists in my opinion. I would never not run dustbowl in any landstill unless the peramitors were not meant for it. Like a much more aggressive landstill variant, which you are not. Thus you play dust bowl.

Also you have 6 manlands. this is at the maximum 1-2 too many. I'd rather cutt 2 add a colored land of my choosing and play tolaria west which searches for the following at 1-1 price:

dustbowl "win's games"
mishra's factory "wins games"
Nantuko monestary "most powerfull option for manland/ wins games."
Engineered explosives "wrath effect please and thank you."
or just plain mana fixing, while less effecient is still good at the right times.
Worst case scenario its a mid game CIP tapped land, but its RARELY going to happen to you.

The other thing is in control mirrors tolaria west with LFTL is GG baby!

I also cutt an island in order to obtain all this. 1-1 split for island and plains is how I went and was succesfull. I don't see how 1 extra island is going to increase your chances against d stompy by more then a percent or 2 and against b2b your dead if it lands 70% of the time anyways. So changing your percentage by one or 3 isn't going to be worth consistently hitting tundra or your colored sources.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

meddling mages. I think mage is actually MORE powerfull then counterspell right now especially. shutting off soo many go to cards and eliminating opposing dazes pre board or whatever sure seems effecient as hell. While also allowing you to block mongoose without many problems like getting your mishra's swords'd ect. Id take that chance before I'd risk my manland.

Reasonably your deck is designed to have answers not go 1-1 in counter control. Your best card is deed, so use it instead of worry about countering their stuff. Counter what you need to counter, but your a pure reaction deck that has ALL the answers. Remember that. You use your counters as bait and sweep the game literally away from your opponents. Then you punish them for their ignorance :).

I don't like shackles and I will explain the other changes later im going to bed. gnight merry christmas.

[Tacosnape]

Ok, so, let's go back to basics (not the card) here for a second.

Cunning Wish, in the last twenty posts, has been called both Card Advantage and Card Disadvantage. It is neither. It's a loss of three mana worth of tempo in order to turn it into a card much more better suited to the situation. This in no way provides card advantage or disadvantage. It's an exchange of tempo for versatility.

Now, if you happen to grab an Extirpate with it and net yourself card disadvantage out of it, or if you grab a Fact or Fiction and net yourself 1-2 card advantage, that's up to you, but for the most part? Cunning Wish isn't classified as either.

[mossivo1986]

Ok, so, let's go back to basics (not the card) here for a second.

Cunning Wish, in the last twenty posts, has been called both Card Advantage and Card Disadvantage. It is neither. It's a loss of three mana worth of tempo in order to turn it into a card much more better suited to the situation. This in no way provides card advantage or disadvantage. It's an exchange of tempo for versatility.

Now, if you happen to grab an Extirpate with it and net yourself card disadvantage out of it, or if you grab a Fact or Fiction and net yourself 1-2 card advantage, that's up to you, but for the most part? Cunning Wish isn't classified as either.

I agree completely and maybe I explained it wrong.

[Obfuscate Freely]

I'd like to talk about manabases a little more. I keep seeing 4-color lists with less than eight fetchlands, and several basics, and these strike me as very poor decisions. I mean, I have lost tournament games (and matches) precisely because I couldn't access a certain color of mana, and much moreso than I have lost because of Moon effects or Stifles. And I have never lost a game because I ran out of lands to fetch, or anything like that.

For reference, my manabase:

4x Mishra's Factory
2x Nantuko Monastery

4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
4x Tropical Island
3x Tundra
3x Underground Sea
1x Scrubland

Now, I do not run land recursion in my list, because I don't think it improves many important matchups, but that is another discussion entirely. It is, however, relevant to my decision not to run non-manland utility lands (Wasteland, Dustbowl, etc.). We can certainly debate this topic, but it isn't the point of this post.

What I am interested in is the configuration of colored mana sources, and I am doubtful that the inclusion of recursion elements should affect this aspect of the manabase. For example, I think I've seen people justify running fewer fetchlands because they have Crucible or Loam in the deck, and I don't think this makes sense.

So, can some of you weigh in on why you aren't running the full set of fetches? Isn't this a requirement in a four-color deck? How about the basic lands? I can see how an Island would be nice to have access to against Moon effects, although you kind of need Blue Blast in the deck to give the Island a purpose. Therefore, the value of a basic probably increases considerably if you have Cunning Wish, but, like I said, I've still lost more games to being unable to play Pernicious Deed than I have to Blood Moon. I have greater difficulty understanding the lists with more than one basic land. They just make the deck less consistent, and they are also much worse than duals against incremental land destruction (Stifle/Waste), which I find much more common than sweeping nonbasic hate.

[3duece]

I'd like to talk about manabases a little more. I keep seeing 4-color lists with less than eight fetchlands, and several basics, and these strike me as very poor decisions. I mean, I have lost tournament games (and matches) precisely because I couldn't access a certain color of mana, and much moreso than I have lost because of Moon effects or Stifles. And I have never lost a game because I ran out of lands to fetch, or anything like that.

For reference, my manabase:

4x Mishra's Factory
2x Nantuko Monastery

4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
4x Tropical Island
3x Tundra
3x Underground Sea
1x Scrubland

Now, I do not run land recursion in my list, because I don't think it improves many important matchups, but that is another discussion entirely. It is, however, relevant to my decision not to run non-manland utility lands (Wasteland, Dustbowl, etc.). We can certainly debate this topic, but it isn't the point of this post.

What I am interested in is the configuration of colored mana sources, and I am doubtful that the inclusion of recursion elements should affect this aspect of the manabase. For example, I think I've seen people justify running fewer fetchlands because they have Crucible or Loam in the deck, and I don't think this makes sense.

So, can some of you weigh in on why you aren't running the full set of fetches? Isn't this a requirement in a four-color deck? How about the basic lands? I can see how an Island would be nice to have access to against Moon effects, although you kind of need Blue Blast in the deck to give the Island a purpose. Therefore, the value of a basic probably increases considerably if you have Cunning Wish, but, like I said, I've still lost more games to being unable to play Pernicious Deed than I have to Blood Moon. I have greater difficulty understanding the lists with more than one basic land. They just make the deck less consistent, and they are also much worse than duals against incremental land destruction (Stifle/Waste), which I find much more common than sweeping nonbasic hate.

I don't know, the manabase is definitely the deck's weak point. I cut utitility lands too because outside of the mirror match dust bowl is too slow and if you have to use tolaria west to get it it's even slower.

I'm thinking one way to help with this is to play faerie conclave over monastery, as much as I would hate to do that it would actually provide help to the manabase instead of taxing it.

About the basics, I'm much more afraid of blood moon effects than stifle/waste, 'cause now you seen it in dstompy, survival, thresh, loam and dreadstill in either the maindeck or board. More fetches is your call, you're more open to stifle but less open to wasteland, sinkhole you cant help but to counter.

[KillemallCFH]

@Ob Freely:
I'd tend to agree. When I started testing out 4c Landstill, the first change to whatever list I was using was to put a full set of blue fetches in it. My current manabase is:

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
4/3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
0/1 Island

4 Mishra's Factory
1 Nantuko Monastary

I, too, agree that running any more than one basic is folly. I was trying out 2-3 but ran into way more mana problems due to colorscrew than to Waste/Moon. I'm currently hovering between 0 and 1, because I do play Blue Blasts in the side. Still, I'm unconvinced of its inclusion. I am probably better off hitting Deed mana more consistantly then hoping to draw a one-of once Moon resolves. Also, I am running a single Loam. I've never felt truly unhappy to draw it, and it does help against Eva Green/Team America, or other decks that attack your manabase. I seldom wish it was another land, which is what it would be were I to cut it.

[Tacosnape]

I'd like to talk about manabases a little more. I keep seeing 4-color lists with less than eight fetchlands, and several basics, and these strike me as very poor decisions. I mean, I have lost tournament games (and matches) precisely because I couldn't access a certain color of mana, and much moreso than I have lost because of Moon effects or Stifles. And I have never lost a game because I ran out of lands to fetch, or anything like that.

For reference, my manabase:

4x Mishra's Factory
2x Nantuko Monastery

4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
4x Tropical Island
3x Tundra
3x Underground Sea
1x Scrubland


I've actually been trying to make this point forever and finally just gave up. If I didn't repeat myself every week people started wrecking the manabase again. I'm glad someone else with some credibility is taking up the yoke.

To reinforce ObFreely's point: It's the biggest mistake people make with 4C Landstill - Cute lands. Seriously. I've been playing this deck for years. The manabase makes or breaks it.

Stop running Tolaria West. It sucks. Stop running Academy Ruins. It sucks. Etc. Etc. 4C Landstill is all about consistency, and being inconsistent will cause it to fail. I rarely if ever lose games due to manabase problems.

For the record, I run 7 Fetches, 4 Tundra, 4 Sea, and 3 Tropical. This gives me 18 ways to hit blue, 11 to hit white or black, and 10 to hit green, plus four Brainstorms to help fix. I could be running 8 fetches and 3 Seas just as easily. My only six non-color lands are the same six ObFreely runs: 4 Factory, 2 Monestary. It's all you need.

EDIT: And you don't really need basics. You just think you do. That one island isn't going to help you as much as it will hurt you, and any other basic will cost you games.

EDIT: @KillemallCFH: Yeah. I do miss my singleton Loam. Beat Pox once by randomly brainstorming into it on turn one both games.

[mossivo1986]

tops second ability- dredge loam- put top on library.

This used to be my favorite thing to do! It was soo rediculous.

[3duece]

So, two questions. Is this a better manabase for my build up top?
4 flooded strand
4 polluted delta
3 tundra
2 underground sea
2 tropical island
1 scrubland
1 savannah
1 island
4 mishra's factory
2 nantuko monastery

Maybe I'm just being a chump but I can't get rid of that island, not with four blasts in my board.

Second, why do I keep seeing maindeck mages in place of counterspells in decks with multiple deed/wrath plus 2 or 3 explosives? I'm certainly not questioning their merit, but I have to be missing something. Is it because ANT is kind of a pain in the neck and pretty common now? I haven't tested maindeck mage and I'm not sipping hateraid with anyone, but it just seems wrong.

[Tacosnape]

So, two questions. Is this a better manabase for my build up top?
4 flooded strand
4 polluted delta
3 tundra
2 underground sea
2 tropical island
1 scrubland
1 savannah
1 island
4 mishra's factory
2 nantuko monastery

Second, why do I keep seeing maindeck mages in place of counterspells in decks with multiple deed/wrath plus 2 or 3 explosives? I'm certainly not questioning their merit, but I have to be missing something. Is it because ANT is kind of a pain in the neck and pretty common now? I haven't tested maindeck mage and I'm not sipping hateraid with anyone, but it just seems wrong.

First off, that manabase is -better-, but probably not quite enough. The Scrubland, the Savannah, and the Island is all a little bit much. I'd at least ditch the Savannah for another Blue dual (You don't ever need to hit green on turn one, but you may need Black or White on turn one for STP/Extirpate), and I'd probably ditch either the second dual or the island for another blue dual.

Second off, I don't think anybody maindecks Mage but me (Or do they? Dun dun dun!). Here's what Mage does for me.

1. Mage is a kill condition in addition to Factory/Monestary.
2. Mage answers things your counterspells can't. Like Life From the Loam, or anything with Split Second, or decks that block your counters with Orim's Chant.
3. Mage can shut off multiple copies of a card in hand.
4. I'm either insanely skilled or insanely lucky (or both) with blind Mage naming.

Additionally, Mage isn't competing with the likes of Force of Will and Counterspell. Mage is competing with anything that would be in that third counterspell slot. This is generally either Spell Snare or the Counterbalance engine, or nothing at all. This makes the Mage-versus-Counter discussion even more worthwhile, as now we have:

5. The other counters aren't as versatile or require other cards to be in play to be at maximum efficiency.

So yes, Mage dies to Deed. And occasionally you'll blow up your own Mage. But after you get used to it, you'll get more accustomed to knowing when to hold back your Mage.

Now, I'm aware that I've made all the same arguments as you just made against Mage that I've made against Tarmogoyf, but in my defence, here's what Mage has going for it over Goyf.

1. Mage actually shuts a card off.
2. Mage pitches to Force of Will.
3. 4C Landstill might need a kill condition beyond the six manlands. Be it Jace, Goyf, Mage, whatever. It can get by with the six manlands, a Loam, and a Crime//Punishment, but on occasion you'll run into trouble with that configuration.

As I believe #3 to be true, I try to fit the kill conditions into one of the deck's main three card groups. For record, here's how I break that down:

24 Land
12 Counters/Card Management
12 Creature/Etc Removal
12 Card Advantage Generators

(It's worth noting that my current list is 13 Removal and 11 Advantage, but I might add the Life From The Loam back in, which would make it 12 and 12)

When I ran Jace, it fit into the Card Advantage area. When I ran Shriekmaw, it fit into Creature Removal. Now that I'm running Mage, it fits into Counters/Card Management, and it largely took the place of 3 Stifle / 1 Extirpate for me.

So yeah. Run Snare over Mage main if you feel it's the right thing to do (Just keep that Loam maindeck if you have no other kills.) Generally though, I've wanted the Mage more.

[mossivo1986]

First off, that manabase is -better-, but probably not quite enough. The Scrubland, the Savannah, and the Island is all a little bit much. I'd at least ditch the Savannah for another Blue dual (You don't ever need to hit green on turn one, but you may need Black or White on turn one for STP/Extirpate), and I'd probably ditch either the second dual or the island for another blue dual.

Second off, I don't think anybody maindecks Mage but me (Or do they? Dun dun dun!). Here's what Mage does for me.

1. Mage is a kill condition in addition to Factory/Monestary.
2. Mage answers things your counterspells can't. Like Life From the Loam, or anything with Split Second, or decks that block your counters with Orim's Chant.
3. Mage can shut off multiple copies of a card in hand.
4. I'm either insanely skilled or insanely lucky (or both) with blind Mage naming.

Additionally, Mage isn't competing with the likes of Force of Will and Counterspell. Mage is competing with anything that would be in that third counterspell slot. This is generally either Spell Snare or the Counterbalance engine, or nothing at all. This makes the Mage-versus-Counter discussion even more worthwhile, as now we have:

5. The other counters aren't as versatile or require other cards to be in play to be at maximum efficiency.

So yes, Mage dies to Deed. And occasionally you'll blow up your own Mage. But after you get used to it, you'll get more accustomed to knowing when to hold back your Mage.

Now, I'm aware that I've made all the same arguments as you just made against Mage that I've made against Tarmogoyf, but in my defence, here's what Mage has going for it over Goyf.

1. Mage actually shuts a card off.
2. Mage pitches to Force of Will.
3. 4C Landstill might need a kill condition beyond the six manlands. Be it Jace, Goyf, Mage, whatever. It can get by with the six manlands, a Loam, and a Crime//Punishment, but on occasion you'll run into trouble with that configuration.

As I believe #3 to be true, I try to fit the kill conditions into one of the deck's main three card groups. For record, here's how I break that down:

24 Land
12 Counters/Card Management
12 Creature/Etc Removal
12 Card Advantage Generators

(It's worth noting that my current list is 13 Removal and 11 Advantage, but I might add the Life From The Loam back in, which would make it 12 and 12)

When I ran Jace, it fit into the Card Advantage area. When I ran Shriekmaw, it fit into Creature Removal. Now that I'm running Mage, it fits into Counters/Card Management, and it largely took the place of 3 Stifle / 1 Extirpate for me.

So yeah. Run Snare over Mage main if you feel it's the right thing to do (Just keep that Loam maindeck if you have no other kills.) Generally though, I've wanted the Mage more.


personally I like the idea of mage, as in 3c i like the idea of relic in the main. so I agree completely.

[Tacosnape]

personally I like the idea of mage, as in 3c i like the idea of relic in the main. so I agree completely.

I think the only reason not to run Relic main is that it resets Nantuko Monestary (Well, ok, yeah, and it doesn't synergize with Loam.) Other than that, yeah, maindeck Relic is a powerhouse.

[SpikeyMikey]

I've actually been trying to make this point forever and finally just gave up. If I didn't repeat myself every week people started wrecking the manabase again. I'm glad someone else with some credibility is taking up the yoke.

To reinforce ObFreely's point: It's the biggest mistake people make with 4C Landstill - Cute lands. Seriously. I've been playing this deck for years. The manabase makes or breaks it.

Stop running Tolaria West. It sucks. Stop running Academy Ruins. It sucks. Etc. Etc. 4C Landstill is all about consistency, and being inconsistent will cause it to fail. I rarely if ever lose games due to manabase problems.

For the record, I run 7 Fetches, 4 Tundra, 4 Sea, and 3 Tropical. This gives me 18 ways to hit blue, 11 to hit white or black, and 10 to hit green, plus four Brainstorms to help fix. I could be running 8 fetches and 3 Seas just as easily. My only six non-color lands are the same six ObFreely runs: 4 Factory, 2 Monestary. It's all you need.

EDIT: And you don't really need basics. You just think you do. That one island isn't going to help you as much as it will hurt you, and any other basic will cost you games.

EDIT: @KillemallCFH: Yeah. I do miss my singleton Loam. Beat Pox once by randomly brainstorming into it on turn one both games.

I agree with you about the cute land thing with one exception. It's not an exception I expect anyone to agree with, but I was running it in the very first 4c landstill variant a month and a half after the split with T1, and I think (with all the weight of my not having played in over a year) that it would still be viable today, even if it's not a necessity by any means. I ran a single Undiscovered Paradise. Then again, my mana base was a little rougher than the modern 4c landstill base, I was running 4 mish/2monastery and also 3 wastes and 2 conclaves.

So I'm not exactly advocating it, but I think that'd be an exception to the rule, under the right circumstances.

All that bs aside, I'm really glad to see this is still a viable archetype. I'm seriously considering quitting WoW, and if I do, I'll probably get back into MtG. It's nice to know that I can still play my baby and have a shot at winning. I threw together Taco's listing from page 1, made a few minor tweaks to it, and I've been playing random scrubs on MWS with it. I'm really enjoying it.

One question: Obviously, since I haven't touched a deck in over a year until yesterday, I'm pretty out of the loop. I looked up relic, and it's a solid upgrade from Phyrexian Furnace/Scrabbling Claws, but why is it so powerful? I would think that generally speaking, Extirpate would be better, since it removes threats from their deck and can't be countered/gripped. Is Thresh a real threat to this deck or is there something else that I'm missing?

[KillemallCFH]

I agree with you about the cute land thing with one exception. It's not an exception I expect anyone to agree with, but I was running it in the very first 4c landstill variant a month and a half after the split with T1, and I think (with all the weight of my not having played in over a year) that it would still be viable today, even if it's not a necessity by any means. I ran a single Undiscovered Paradise. Then again, my mana base was a little rougher than the modern 4c landstill base, I was running 4 mish/2monastery and also 3 wastes and 2 conclaves.I'm sorry, but running an Undiscovered Paradise seems beyond awful. Having to return a land to its hand is not what Landstill wants.

One question: Obviously, since I haven't touched a deck in over a year until yesterday, I'm pretty out of the loop. I looked up relic, and it's a solid upgrade from Phyrexian Furnace/Scrabbling Claws, but why is it so powerful? I would think that generally speaking, Extirpate would be better, since it removes threats from their deck and can't be countered/gripped. Is Thresh a real threat to this deck or is there something else that I'm missing?It keeps Goyfs small, hoses troublesome decks like Loam, Survival, and Ichorid, and cantrips at the very worst.

That said, I am not quite as enthusiastic about it as Taco is. With only one in play, it does a mediocre job at keeping Goyfs in check, and usually just amounts to a fog, before the graveyards are refilled again and Goyf is once again huge. If your meta has a lot of Loam/Survival/Ichorid, then it is definitely a good idea to run it main. However, if it is only being used to try to keep Goyfs in check, I'd keep them in the board.

[Citrus-God]

Relic also kills Terravores. That's a huge plus.

[Tacosnape]

I'm sorry, but running an Undiscovered Paradise seems beyond awful. Having to return a land to its hand is not what Landstill wants.
It keeps Goyfs small, hoses troublesome decks like Loam, Survival, and Ichorid, and cantrips at the very worst.

That said, I am not quite as enthusiastic about it as Taco is. With only one in play, it does a mediocre job at keeping Goyfs in check, and usually just amounts to a fog, before the graveyards are refilled again and Goyf is once again huge. If your meta has a lot of Loam/Survival/Ichorid, then it is definitely a good idea to run it main. However, if it is only being used to try to keep Goyfs in check, I'd keep them in the board.

I'm enthusiastic because Landstill doesn't have graveyard hate. True control decks need to be prepared for everything. But Landstill can't afford to dedicate slots maindeck to graveyard hate unless the slot does something else as well. In this case, the card cantrips and replaces itself.

That said, I haven't come across the best solution to that whole Relic/Monestary negative interaction other than to either ignore it or just stick with Extirpate.

[kicks_422]

How about replacing the Monasteries with Mutavault/Faerie Conclave?

[Tacosnape]

How about replacing the Monasteries with Mutavault/Faerie Conclave?

I've thought about it. Here's the point I keep throwing at myself.

Convince me that doing so is better than the following:

1. Still running Monestary and putting up with the fact that cracking a Relic renders you unable to attack with it for a few turns.

2. Just running Monestary and Extirpate.

This said, if you aren't running Green or aren't running White? You really should be investigating Relic of Progenitus.

[kicks_422]

Well, I would imagine that in the match-ups where you want to actually use the Relic to remove the entire graveyard, the liability of a Monastery or two which couldn't attack would be neglible compared to the damage that the Relic would do to the opponent. I would guess that the dissynergy between Monastery and Relic is outweighed by Relic's MD potential.

[Tacosnape]

Well, I would imagine that in the match-ups where you want to actually use the Relic to remove the entire graveyard, the liability of a Monastery or two which couldn't attack would be neglible compared to the damage that the Relic would do to the opponent. I would guess that the dissynergy between Monastery and Relic is outweighed by Relic's MD potential.

Thing is? You will always want to use the Relic to remove the entire graveyard in matches where the opponent's graveyard is irrelevant. Because then you get the card replacement. The fact that you can do this and cantrip the card when it's dead is the only possible justification for its inclusion maindeck.

[bigbear102]

Well, I would imagine that in the match-ups where you want to actually use the Relic to remove the entire graveyard, the liability of a Monastery or two which couldn't attack would be neglible compared to the damage that the Relic would do to the opponent. I would guess that the dissynergy between Monastery and Relic is outweighed by Relic's MD potential.

I would assume this to be the opposite. Sure, removing the Graveyard from the game is important to keep you alive long enough to win, but if in doing so you neuter your win condition you have not gotten anywhere. Odds are the decks that win throught their yards will fill back up faster than Landstill.

Aggro Loam should be able to find some Cyclers into Loam quicker than you get Threshold back, Ichorid can still explode pretty easily, and Survival with Survival in play will win if you can't shut it down, which graveyard hate doesn't actually do.

In all of those matchups a simple Phyrexian Furnace is better, except in the case of Terravore, you wil still probably have 2-3 land in your yard. Slowing down goyf for a couple of turns should not be that much of an issue. Sure, not playing W/G? Relic is good. But if you are relying on your yard to win, Relic will slow you down a lot, which is not good in a deck that is playing Monastery as a faster win condition so that it doesn't go to time as often.

[kicks_422]

Thing is? You will always want to use the Relic to remove the entire graveyard in matches where the opponent's graveyard is irrelevant. Because then you get the card replacement. The fact that you can do this and cantrip the card when it's dead is the only possible justification for its inclusion maindeck.

Oh, right. I overlooked that, sorry. I guess Relics don't go well with Monasteries at all, then. They'd be great for UWB an UBG builds though, at least those that don't use Tombstalker/Tarmogoyf.

[3duece]

If someone is concerned about their monasteries isn't tormod's crypt a decent replacement for relic? Its not as good against aggroloam but works fine against most other graveyard strategies.

Also, I decided to man up and drop the last basic island. Gotta admit, the deck runs much more smoothly, although I haven't had to face extirpate yet.

4 flooded strand
4 polluted delta
4 tundra
3 underground sea
3 tropical island
4 mishra's factory
2 nantuko monastery

I'm still running two decrees but I'm thinking about cutting them for and third fact or fiction and third spell snare. Is it enough of a win condition to have six manlands and two vedalken shackles? I can't remember the last time I cycled decree for more than a few soldiers.

[3duece]

Okay, so I cut the two decrees and I actually much prefer it. If I wasn't running shackles I might not like it as much, but two shackles with six recurring manlands seems to be plenty of wincon for me. Here's my list now, it's much more streamlined and consistent:
4 flooded strand
4 polluted delta
4 tundra
3 underground sea
3 tropical island
4 mishra's factory
2 nantuko monastery

4 standstill
4 brainstorm
3 fact or fiction
4 counterspell
4 force of will
3 spell snare
4 swords to plowshares
4 pernicious deed
2 engineered explosives
2 vedalken shackles
1 crucible of worlds
1 life from the loam

[mossivo1986]

Okay, so I cut the two decrees and I actually much prefer it. If I wasn't running shackles I might not like it as much, but two shackles with six recurring manlands seems to be plenty of wincon for me. Here's my list now, it's much more streamlined and consistent:
4 flooded strand
4 polluted delta
4 tundra
3 underground sea
3 tropical island
4 mishra's factory
2 nantuko monastery

4 standstill
4 brainstorm
3 fact or fiction
4 counterspell
4 force of will
3 spell snare
4 swords to plowshares
4 pernicious deed
2 engineered explosives
2 vedalken shackles
1 crucible of worlds
1 life from the loam

if you not going to run decree it might be in your favor to forget the white splash and go ugb. White splash for meddling mage and swords seems kind of light on any account.

[3duece]

I agree that the splash is light, I just have trouble giving up swords, I find its needed early and often. Having to use smother just seems weak. Plus, monastery is a nice quick kill, I've thought about adding in a third. Also, I might be wrong, but isn't vorosh more of a counterbalance deck with goyf? I know its a good deck, but I'm more interested in a traditional control style. I've considered a single decree in place of the third spell snare, I don't think it would be bad but I'm not sure I'll draw it often enough to make it worthwhile. I've also considered a single basic island to fetch against moon decks, going up to 25 land. Actually, as I type this that sounds like a better idea. What do you think?

[Joon]

As I'm currently testing 4c Landstill I thought that I better share my ideas with more experienced players.

First of all, the manabase. No real discussion here imo, 4 Factories and 2 Monasteries as a kill condition, 7 Fetches and blue duals. No compromise with utility lands, just what you need.
That leads to the following base:

4 Factories
2 Monasteries
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
4 Tundra
3 Tropical Island

Then the rest of the deck. The auto 4-offs

4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Pernicious Deed

This leaves 16 free slots. Additional removal in form of Explosives, Innocent Blood (if we don't use Goyfs as additional Wincon), Vindicates (look hot on paper, but we have Deed to blow up pesky artifacts so they are kinda meh), Diabolic Edict. Additional Cardquality (Ponder, Top) or Cardadvantage (FoF, Jace) is needed as well as more finisher than those 6 manlands.

My current list looks like this:

Manabase

4 Factories
2 Monasteries
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
4 Tropical Island

Critter

4 Tarmogoyf

Counter

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell

Removal and Sweeper

4 Pernicious Deed
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Diabolic Edict

Cardquality and -advantage

3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Fact or Fiction
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill

Sideboard

4 Meddling Mage
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Relic of Progenitus
3 Krosan Grip

This deck plays pretty solid till now. But I have several questions to the guys that play 4c Landstill more frequently than I do.

1. Which card should I cut to get to 60 cards? 61 isn't optimal.
2. Edict or Explosives? I mean I have the ability to set it on 4, which means that it actually destroy Planeswalkers which I loved about Vindicate.
3. Sensei's Divining Top. It is good enough to run? I could run more Removal or Jace (especially with Goyf as blocker) in that slot. But Top helps finding the right Duals or whatever you need. Tough.
4. Counterspell. Is it still good? I loved the builds with 3/3 CS/Spell Snare but I haven't the space for those extra 2 slots.

I'm tinkering around with Tacosnape's build with Meddling Mages instead of Goyfs, given that Mages fit way better in Landstill's concept.

[FoolofaTook]

You need actual real card advantage in this style of Landstill. You need something to supplement Standstill that actually nets you card advantage, which SDT, Ponder, and Cunning Wish, while all good, don't. Fact or Fiction serves this role etremely efficiently, as does Jace Beleren, as do a few other random things (Like an Intuition/Loam Engine).

I've been toying with Life From the Loam as straight card advantage alongside Standstill. The idea is just to cast one midgame to get back 3 lands and refill the hand. Recurring LFtL happens occasionally but it's not the aim of the deck.

This is the list I've been using, it's got heavy Landstill elements but it's more of a hybrid:

3x Life From the Loam
4x Standstill
4x Mishra's Factory
3x Wasteland
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Tombstalker
1x Gigapede
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Counterspell
3x Spell Snare
3x Engineered Explosives
3x Pernicious Deed
2x Damnation
4x Polluted Delta
2x Flooded Strand
3x Underground Sea
3x Tropical Island
1x Bayou
2x Island
1x Swamp

The LFtL's should be getting back a couple of lands mid to late, which the deck can put to good use, and one business piece against most decks.

[Tacosnape]

if you not going to run decree it might be in your favor to forget the white splash and go ugb. White splash for meddling mage and swords seems kind of light on any account.

Yes, because, you know, why splash white for two of the best cards in existence that no other color has even a remote replacement for? Also, don't forget you're running white for Nantuko Monestary, as well.


My current list looks like this:

Manabase

4 Factories
2 Monasteries
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
4 Tropical Island

Critter

4 Tarmogoyf

Counter

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell

Removal and Sweeper

4 Pernicious Deed
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Diabolic Edict

Cardquality and -advantage

3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Fact or Fiction
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill

Sideboard

4 Meddling Mage
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Relic of Progenitus
3 Krosan Grip

This deck plays pretty solid till now. But I have several questions to the guys that play 4c Landstill more frequently than I do.

1. Which card should I cut to get to 60 cards? 61 isn't optimal.
2. Edict or Explosives? I mean I have the ability to set it on 4, which means that it actually destroy Planeswalkers which I loved about Vindicate.
3. Sensei's Divining Top. It is good enough to run? I could run more Removal or Jace (especially with Goyf as blocker) in that slot. But Top helps finding the right Duals or whatever you need. Tough.
4. Counterspell. Is it still good? I loved the builds with 3/3 CS/Spell Snare but I haven't the space for those extra 2 slots.

I'm tinkering around with Tacosnape's build with Meddling Mages instead of Goyfs, given that Mages fit way better in Landstill's concept.

1. Cut a Top. And you should cut the other two while you're at it. Top is garbage in this deck without Counterbalance anywhere in your 75. You'd be better off with Opt, if you want the slot for SDT to increase the deck's consistency.

2. A combination. Edict is insanely underrated and your best way to deal with certain threats you can't handle otherwise, but you need Engineered Explosives to back up Pernicious Deed. EE's fantastic against random annoying things like Needle, Chalice, Vial, tokens, etc.

3. No.

4. For the love of god, yes it is. Any list running less than 4 Counterspells is wrong. Period. Spell Snare is nowhere near versatile enough to compensate for Counterspell, and Snare is only better than Counterspell when you have exactly one land on the board.

[Citrus-God]

For the love of god, yes it is. Any list running less than 4 Counterspells is wrong. Period. Spell Snare is nowhere near versatile enough to compensate for Counterspell, and Snare is only better than Counterspell when you have exactly one land on the board.

You need 3 lands on the board against Threshold. What if they drop Counterbalance on Turn 2 and you have 2 lands in play? Walking into Daze sucks.

[Tacosnape]

You need 3 lands on the board against Threshold. What if they drop Counterbalance on Turn 2 and you have 2 lands in play? Walking into Daze sucks.

That's a very narrow reason to add to the argument of Snare being better than Counterspell. It's a good reason to run Snare, granted. It's just not a good reason to run it over Counterspell.

Why are you scared of Counterbalance, anyway? Drop a Deed for 3 or spend 3-4 mana on an Explosives with Sunburst 2. The average 4C Landstill list is running six outs to it, and additionally, it's uncommon they'll be able to keep you from digging for it with Fact or Fiction.

[FredMaster]

That's a very narrow reason to add to the argument of Snare being better than Counterspell. It's a good reason to run Snare, granted. It's just not a good reason to run it over Counterspell.

The point is that Snare shouldn't be run over Counterspell - no discussion concerning this point is needed.
But as Citrus-God pointed out, Snare is needed to handle these early game problem cards like Tarmogoyf, Counterbalance, Confidant or Survival of the Fittest.
So Counterspell is more of a late game counter in this case (targets: Intuition, Back to Basics, Moons, Planeswalkers and so on).

I found out that a 3/3 Split between both works fairly well in my Uwb build.
And I see no major differences in the 4c version that would make me change the numbers.

[Tacosnape]

The point is that Snare shouldn't be run over Counterspell - no discussion concerning this point is needed.
But as Citrus-God pointed out, Snare is needed to handle these early game problem cards like Tarmogoyf, Counterbalance, Confidant or Survival of the Fittest.
So Counterspell is more of a late game counter in this case (targets: Intuition, Back to Basics, Moons, Planeswalkers and so on).

I found out that a 3/3 Split between both works fairly well in my Uwb build.
And I see no major differences in the 4c version that would make me change the numbers.

If you're running a 3/3 split, then you are by definition running Snare over Counterspell. If you're dedicating 6 slots to Counters, you should be running 4 Counterspell and 2 Spell Snare.

I'm not going to argue against Snare being good for a minute. I run 3-4 in my sideboard and have tinkered with builds running 3 main. However, cutting below 4 Counterspells probably shouldn't ever happen.

Additionally, of the cards you listed, the only one that's a serious problem if it hits before you can handle it is Survival of the Fittest, though it's worth noting that EE or Deed kills it, and if your Counterspell was too slow, it won't be too slow for the Witness that tries to recur it. Counterbalance is only a slight problem without Top and a moderate problem with, but one that can be handled via Deed and EE (Or, you know, Force of Will.) Tarmogoyf and Confidant aren't problems at all. 4C Landstill builds run between 11-13 cards that all remove creatures in play from the board, and you also run Force of Will.

Snare's main downside is that while it can almost always find something to hit? A lot of times the targets it hits are things you'd be better off not countering and saving your counter for a stronger card, but you don't get this option because you can't throw the Snare at everything.

Further additionally, when you're on the play? Snare is pathetic compared to Counterspell. Because by the time your opponent is making 2-drops, you're going to have the mana available to counter it anyway.