[Deck] UBGx Landstill

[Obfuscate Freely]

Cut a Top. And you should cut the other two while you're at it. Top is garbage in this deck without Counterbalance anywhere in your 75. You'd be better off with Opt, if you want the slot for SDT to increase the deck's consistency.
Top is garbage? Do yours have the same text on them as mine?

Up until recently, I had always wondered how good Top would be in Landstill, but never bothered to shoehorn it into the deck. Finally, after losing enough matches to my opponents topdecking better than me in longer games, I made room and added Tops. I have not been disappointed.

Top actually makes a ton of sense in Landstill, since it is efficient enough to fix your draws early on in the game, but is even more powerful in the late game. The value of a Top increases continuously once it is in play, which means that the card is arguably better in Landstill than in any other deck!

[freakish777]

Top actually makes a ton of sense in Landstill, since it is efficient enough to fix your draws early on in the game, but is even more powerful in the late game.

Not only does it get better as the game progresses, but playing Standstill with Top already in play is like cheating, as you will hit all your land drops (and find your manlands to put pressure on them) while your opponent can no longer just wait for you to hit 8 cards and break Standstill on your end step since that won't happen.

[Obfuscate Freely]

Not only does it get better as the game progresses, but playing Standstill with Top already in play is like cheating, as you will hit all your land drops (and find your manlands to put pressure on them) while your opponent can no longer just wait for you to hit 8 cards and break Standstill on your end step since that won't happen.
Yeah, this is definitely worth noting. Having a Top in play makes it drastically safer to play Standstill against any deck this side of Rabid Wombat. You don't have to try to guess how many manlands or Wastelands your opponent might be running, or whether you should take the risk of he or she ripping them off the top faster than you.

With the recent surge in popularity of other decks that play Standstill, such as Dreadstill, using Top to enable your own Standstills can be pretty important.

[URABAHN]

Yeah, this is definitely worth noting. Having a Top in play makes it drastically safer to play Standstill against any deck this side of Rabid Wombat. You don't have to try to guess how many manlands or Wastelands your opponent might be running, or whether you should take the risk of he or she ripping them off the top faster than you.

With the recent surge in popularity of other decks that play Standstill, such as Dreadstill, using Top to enable your own Standstills can be pretty important.

Enable, that's a great word in the world of people who play Standstill. Manlands, Swords, and Top, yes Top will enable your Standstills. The last incarnation of BHWC I played ran Top. Peeking 3 cards ahead under a Standstill has enough value to warrant running Top with or without Counterbalance. My only complaint about Top was that I felt it made Fact or Fiction somewhat weaker. I don't think one can quantify how much weaker it makes your FoF, but FoF-ing into a Top while you've got a Top in play means you've FoF'ed into at least 1 dead card. Did that make sense? :smile: I know you can take the pile with the extra Top and get tricky with Deed to blow up Top and draw a card, but you really didn't want that extra Top in first place, right?

As good as Top is, I don't think it's incredibly helpful against another deck running Standstill. Now, I didn't say it wasn't helpful, but I do think the value is somewhat marginal in those situations. That might be because I haven't run Wasteland in BHWC since before GP Ohio, but the fact remains that it's dangerous to play Standstill against an opponent playing Standstill.

With Top, you know what you're going to draw and you obviously know what's in your hand, but you do not know how many Manlands and Wastelands your opponent has in hand or will draw and that luck/randomness can make you break your own Standstill and at that point you can probably kiss the game goodbye.

[Rood]

I think if you're opting to run Top in Landstill as Taco said CB has to be in your 75 cards, preferable sideboard. It will give you a much stronger combo MU postboard as well as Sligh/burn...I can't see if you're gonna run Top not to at least board CB.

[mossivo1986]

Top is garbage? Do yours have the same text on them as mine?

Up until recently, I had always wondered how good Top would be in Landstill, but never bothered to shoehorn it into the deck. Finally, after losing enough matches to my opponents topdecking better than me in longer games, I made room and added Tops. I have not been disappointed.

Top actually makes a ton of sense in Landstill, since it is efficient enough to fix your draws early on in the game, but is even more powerful in the late game. The value of a Top increases continuously once it is in play, which means that the card is arguably better in Landstill than in any other deck!


Taco's problem is probobly that top while efficient and amazing, can also be a big giant pain in the ass sometimes. The worst case scenarios is multiple tops, so if you are going to play it, it should either be with counterbalance, or just 1 of. As an example the draw package I used to use was:

4standstill
4Brainstorm
2cunning wish
2ponder
1 sensei's devining top

thee top acts as a 3rd ponder with your fetches, provides filter and autodredging with LFTL when you may or may not need it, and if your looking for a force, paying one mana to filter a bit is never a bad idea.

From what I understand players who are better then I who pilot landstill say this:

Every deck has a weakpoint of control where they are most likely to be beaten. Landstills weakpoint traditionally is earlier in the game, so in the first few turns of a game you do not want to really drop a top as it will timewalk your aggro opponent right into their game winning play or cost vital mana you need to access other cards you need far more then top. As you play the game top becomes more valuable to you, but you still don't really want to see it, and its not really neccesary if your playing landstill the correct way.

Bottom line they don't like it.

That said I do want to mention that in a few matchups top is so rediculously good its a joke.

The mirror, minus your top getting gripped "which probobly isn't being sided in anyways" top acts as auto brainstorm fetching lands, countermagic, and win conditions. It also filters your swords back so that you dont draw them and can instantly top for them to remove that pesky mishra's early game or e dragon. Top is soo good in the mirror. Top is also amazing against decks like TA in my experiance because it gets you to four mana which is absolutely vital in that matchup. It also filters your swords to the top of your library "cheap removal" ect.

but top is severely dead against decks that feature challice and can only do you good on the play in those matchups for obvious reasons.

Bottom line top has incredible uses and horrible uses. its a 50-50 call, don't let anyone tell you it bad or good because you need to figure all these things for yourself.

[i_need_the_extra_turns]

I think sensei is definitely worth a slot in landstill, especially in 4c.

@mossivo
4standstill
4Brainstorm
2cunning wish
2ponder
1 sensei's devining top

That seems to me as a good configuration. For me, I play the following list for about half a year and it works just perfect for me.

Deck (60)
1x Savannah
4x Mishra's Factory
3x Tundra
2x Underground Sea
2x Tropical Island
1x Island [Version 4]
1x Dust Bowl
1x Plains [Version 4]
1x Academy Ruins
1x Scrubland
4x Flooded Strand
2x Polluted Delta

1x Eternal Dragon
1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Crucible of Worlds
3x Engineered Explosives
4x Standstill
3x Pernicious Deed
2x Humility
4x Counterspell
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Cunning Wish
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
1x Ponder
2x Decree of Justice
1x Life from the Loam

Sideboard (15)
4x Meddling Mage
1x Engineered Plague
2x Circle of Protection: Red
2x Blue Elemental Blast
1x Enlightened Tutor
1x Pulse of the Fields
4x Extirpate

To the list:
I'm very happy with the list but I'm thinking about some minor changes.

E-dragon:
The dragon was always for me: cycle and find a land. I had never ever used him as a win condition and I always finish with humility in play.
Maybe I should add a land or a cantrip/sensei here.
The E-Dragon looks like a strong win condition in the control mirror, but it would get sworded anyways.

Elspeth:
I will try out the lady, but dont know what to cut. A decree or what?

To the ponder - sensei split.
I thought about to play 2 sensei's, but ponders helps u immediately which might be important in some situations.

As the speed increased in legacy, landstill has to adjust itself.
The uwb version added spell snare's for the early game, where the 4c version has the option to add more card quality (ponder, sensei) to ensure the landdrops.


@Counterbalance

In my opinion counterbalance is terrible in landstill. That is not the style landstill plays.
1. U cant support the balance very well. Landstill plays many lands and additional dead cards like EE and e-Dragon etc.

2. It requires min. 6 slots. 3 sensei and 3 balance. I dont have these free slots.

3. When do u want to cast it? Turn 2? I would allways prefer to drop a standstill.

4. It has an antisynergy with deed.

5. Even as a sideboard card, it is terrible. U can drop the mages for balances to improve your combo matchup. That looks like a nice idea, but you are something missing: The mage IS a clock and it is nearly as good as the balance. For combo decks the matchup is only hard, when u have disruption AND a (fast^^) clock.

[Obfuscate Freely]

My only complaint about Top was that I felt it made Fact or Fiction somewhat weaker. I don't think one can quantify how much weaker it makes your FoF, but FoF-ing into a Top while you've got a Top in play means you've FoF'ed into at least 1 dead card. Did that make sense? :smile: I know you can take the pile with the extra Top and get tricky with Deed to blow up Top and draw a card, but you really didn't want that extra Top in first place, right?
How "tricky" is it to pop a Top, and then activate a fetchland? If you look at the top three cards first, it's kind of like playing an Impulse, and I do it all the time.

Regardless, it's pretty silly to say that Fact or Fiction somehow gets worse when you run Top. At that point in the game, a redundant Top is rarely worse than the best card on top of your library.


As good as Top is, I don't think it's incredibly helpful against another deck running Standstill. Now, I didn't say it wasn't helpful, but I do think the value is somewhat marginal in those situations. That might be because I haven't run Wasteland in BHWC since before GP Ohio, but the fact remains that it's dangerous to play Standstill against an opponent playing Standstill.
With a Top in play, I feel pretty confident about playing Standstill on a clear board against any deck that has a comparable number of Wastes and manlands (say, Dreadstill's 4x Wasteland/3x Factory vs. my 4x Factory/2x Monastery). You certainly can't make that play without Top.


I think if you're opting to run Top in Landstill as Taco said CB has to be in your 75 cards, preferable sideboard. It will give you a much stronger combo MU postboard as well as Sligh/burn...I can't see if you're gonna run Top not to at least board CB.
I agree with you that Counterbalance should be in the sideboard, but that is incidental to Top being in the deck. Counterbalance becomes such a great sideboard tool because you have Top in the main, and Top is worth running whether you have the enchantment or not.
@Counterbalance

In my opinion counterbalance is terrible in landstill. That is not the style landstill plays.
1. U cant support the balance very well. Landstill plays many lands and additional dead cards like EE and e-Dragon etc.

2. It requires min. 6 slots. 3 sensei and 3 balance. I dont have these free slots.

3. When do u want to cast it? Turn 2? I would allways prefer to drop a standstill.

4. It has an antisynergy with deed.

5. Even as a sideboard card, it is terrible. U can drop the mages for balances to improve your combo matchup. That looks like a nice idea, but you are something missing: The mage IS a clock and it is nearly as good as the balance. For combo decks the matchup is only hard, when u have disruption AND a (fast^^) clock.
Counterbalance works out of the sideboard because it is so effective in some matchups. Sure, the card won't be as awesome in Landstill as it is in Threshold, but it will still wreck a Tendrils deck better than Meddling Mage, even if you can't find a Top to go with it. Counterbalance is also pretty effective against Goyf Sligh and similar decks. Pernicious Deed is not very good in either of these matchups, which makes the poor synergy between it and Counterbalance less relevant, and both matchups are rather difficult, and thus deserve some attention in the sideboard. Counterbalance fits in pretty damn well.

You are right that you need a clock against combo, but that is one of the reasons I play Tarmogoyf. Since you don't, I'm not sure what to tell you, but if not running one of the best cards in the format (Tarmogoyf) also happens to prevent you from boarding another one of the best cards in the format (Counterbalance), you might be doing something wrong.


Every deck has a weakpoint of control where they are most likely to be beaten. Landstills weakpoint traditionally is earlier in the game, so in the first few turns of a game you do not want to really drop a top as it will timewalk your aggro opponent right into their game winning play or cost vital mana you need to access other cards you need far more then top. As you play the game top becomes more valuable to you, but you still don't really want to see it, and its not really neccesary if your playing landstill the correct way.
This kind of seems like nonsense. Top is faster at fixing your draws in the early game than Standstill, Cunning Wish, or FoF, and it does so as many times as you need it to. Ponder is faster than Top, but becomes much worse by the midgame, where you are still completely capable of losing.

I think the bottom line is that, considering how many mana sources Landstill has, and how long Landstill's games typically last, Top pretty much has to be amazing. The card quality it generates virtually replaces the card investment within just a couple of turns, even though it can actually replace itself whenever you need it to. The land drops Top ensures will usually pay for its activations, even though Landstill rarely taps out every turn, anyway. The card strengthens your midgame, which is important to winning a lot of your games, and it even strengthens your sideboard options. What the hell is not to like?

[3duece]

@I need extra turns
I agree with you regarding counterbalance. One of landstill's strengths is it is not heavily affected by counterbalance, but that of course means it can't support it's own.

@top and ponder
You wouldn't need either of these, or the eternal dragon if you dropped the basic plains and the utility lands and added more blue duals. A deck only needs mana fixing if it's mana isn't right to begin with, and i've recently subscribed to the notion that the utility lands are much better in the 2 and 3 color versions playing more basics. With so much land inconsistency it is more likely that you will lose to your own manabase (can't cast deed, extirpate or ee@3) than win via dustbowl lock or whatever. When I drop a standstill I would rather beat in with factories and monasteries and force my opponent to fumble around for an answer, giving me cards in the process than tap down three in my mainphase to transmute into dustbowl and start using my land drops to create tempo this deck can't take advantage of in the first place.

[Bardo]

What Ob Freely said, ditto. Though, he said better than I.

Regarding Top, I agree, it's so good in Landstill you can run it without Counterbalance and it's still good (if you're running enough enough fetchlands). If you have Standstill on the board and no manlands, it finds them faster, shuffles away what you don't need; breaks open the mirror; just an all-around superb card if you have the time to exploit it, which you do.

Regarding Counterbalances, I realize it's controversial, but it's one of those rare cards that turns around several of Landstill's bad match-ups (Goyf Sligh, Burn, combo of many shapes and sizes) and makes your already positive Thresh m/u even better. It does a lot for a little investment and its interaction with Divining Top is too well known to repeat. Those who complain about the lack of synergy between Deed and CB have not played the two in the same deck enough, though I'll certainly concede the point on the theoretical level.

Regarding Tarmogoyf, it is one of the best cards in the game; it really helps vs. Goblins, as well as other aggro and aggro-control and gives you a much needed clock vs. combo. I think Landstill's positive combo-m/u has always been a bit overrated.

I've been having good results with this in my gauntlet:

"Grand Prix Landstill"

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Divining Top

4 Force of Will
3 Counterbalance
3 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Crucible of Worlds

4 Tarmogoyf

4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Island

Sideboard:
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Hydroblast
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Krosan Grip
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Counterbalance
1 Engineered Explosives

Still need a lot of work but has plenty of room for customization.

Honestly, I haven't tested Elspeth or any of the other Planeswalkers other than Jace.

[3duece]

Maybe I'm missing something, but is your only sweeper EE?

[Bardo]

[Your comment about the fetchland count in my list.]

With Crucible, you don't need to pull fetches off the top as much, the 4/3 config is also a balance to not lose to Stifle. In a less Stifle-heavy environment, 4/4 is obv. correct.

@ 3Deuce - I have EE #3 in the place of the DoJ, but it's not built for a heavy aggro metagame. The thing about Landstill is how you can customize it for whatever you can reasonably expect to face. The deck supports Wrath, Humility, etc., so play with the slots as you see fit. I've never been a big fan of the 4c answers, especially as the format has sped up.

[3duece]

With Crucible, you don't need to pull fetches off the top as much, the 4/3 config is also a balance to not lose to Stifle. In a less Stifle-heavy environment, 4/4 is obv. correct. Also, you should know better than posting a weak one-liner in the DTB forum.

@ 3Deuce - I have EE #3 in the place of the DoJ, but it's not built for a heavy aggro metagame. The thing about Landstill is how you can customize it for whatever you can reasonably expect to face. The deck supports Wrath, Humility, etc., so play with the slots as you see fit.

Ah, I see. Yeah in that build I would definitely have 3 wrath and 2-3 monastery. Also, in reference to you fucking killing folks, you only really need five or six fetches in a three color model because casting deed isn't a concern.

[Bardo]

Ah, I see. Yeah in that build I would definitely have 3 wrath and 2-3 monastery. Also, in reference to you fucking killing folks, you only really need five or six fetches in a three color model because casting deed isn't a concern.

In testing you need 6-9 fetchlands to get the most out of Divining Top. That's what the fetchies are supporting, other than color-stability.

[Obfuscate Freely]

With Crucible, you don't need to pull fetches off the top as much, the 4/3 config is also a balance to not lose to Stifle. In a less Stifle-heavy environment, 4/4 is obv. correct.
Also, in reference to you fucking killing folks, you only really need five or six fetches in a three color model because casting deed isn't a concern.
You don't "need" fetches "as much?" That sounds like an inadequate explanation, since we're trying to optimize something, not get it to barely work.

How does cutting one fetchland make you less vulnerable to Stifle? Chances are still excellent that you will lose a land to every Stifle they draw, but the chance that you will draw enough fetches to make up for the ones you lose is diminished. This logic is similar to that of people who cut spells because they "always get countered anyway."

[3duece]

That was my misunderstanding. You guys are trying to maximize the quality of top, I was thinking from the perspective of color fixing, as two and three color landstill tends to play less fetches and more basics because it allows for a more forgiving manabase. But yes, if you're trying to maximize top then more fetches are ideal.

[Bardo]

You don't "need" fetches "as much?"

In that, once you have Crucible and have found 1 fetchland (which you have), any other fetchlands are unnecessary for the purposes of Top.


How does cutting one fetchland make you less vulnerable to Stifle? Chances are still excellent that you will lose a land to every Stifle they draw, but the chance that you will draw enough fetches to make up for the ones you lose is diminished.

I've thought about it and agree that you're right. My logic was: "Yes, I will lose some fetches to Stifle, but I want, to greatest extent I can, to have 3 mana on the board on turn 3" (to cast CB or Standstill while having a land to pay for Daze). But, in trying to minimize one risk (Stifle on Strand/Delta), I'm just opening myself up to another (Wasteland on Trop/Tundra).

For the most part, a fetchland has greater value than a dual land at most points in the game (both are vulnerable to different, commonly-played forms of LD), fetchlands complement Top in a completely unfair way and are safer to keep on board in the face of Wasteland.

So yeah, agreed, 4/4 Strand/Delta is much better than 4/3. (List updated above.)

[Mister Agent]

Nice list Bardo.

I don't think Bardo's GP Landstill actually requires 4c sweepers per se. Tarmogoyfs, Counterbalance, Engineered Explosives, and Swords to Plowshares are your removal spells and plenty at that. The deck also has the Wasteland + Crucible recursion combo to prevent later threats from coming online while counterspelling threats that bypass all other security installments. That said, this leaves you with more opportunities to play standstill.

Oblivion Ring seems like a strong card in the deck though. Making opposing Tombstalkers/Tarmogoyfs disappear while keeping your own threats seems efficient in my book. Unlike Wrath of God, Oblivion Ring does not put any obstruction on the manabase making it easily playable with a beneficial function.

[i_need_the_extra_turns]

I agree with you that Counterbalance should be in the sideboard, but that is incidental to Top being in the deck. Counterbalance becomes such a great sideboard tool because you have Top in the main, and Top is worth running whether you have the enchantment or not.

Counterbalance works out of the sideboard because it is so effective in some matchups. Sure, the card won't be as awesome in Landstill as it is in Threshold, but it will still wreck a Tendrils deck better than Meddling Mage, even if you can't find a Top to go with it. Counterbalance is also pretty effective against Goyf Sligh and similar decks.

Sure, the balance is effective vs. burn, goyf sligh etc. but for these weak matchups I have allready my board. I agree, that the balance is in your deck (Goyfs) a solid sideboard card, in my deck it makes just no sense.



You are right that you need a clock against combo, but that is one of the reasons I play Tarmogoyf. Since you don't, I'm not sure what to tell you, but if not running one of the best cards in the format (Tarmogoyf) also happens to prevent you from boarding another one of the best cards in the format (Counterbalance), you might be doing something wrong.

Well, as I said above, two different decks. And I dont think that I might me doing something wrong :wink: . Not every good card is good in every deck.
Have u tried Humility in landstill?


@bardo
Are the goyf landstill variants still called vorosh?
Anyway, I like your list - it looks pretty much like an american LS list^^.
I would play one land less and add instead the 4th counterspell or the 4th balance or the 4th EE.
I think 23 lands are definitly enough - u play 2 CoW, 3 sensei, 4 brainstorm etc... just test it.

@Tarmogoyf in Landstill
The goyf is not an auto-include in landstill. Sure it helps u in the burn, goyf sligh, zoo and combo matchup before boarding, but vs. burn a cunning wish -> Pulse is often enough for example.
Versus zoo, burn, goyfs sligh u should have a sideboard.

The combo matchup for non-goyf Lanstill is bad before boarding and maybe 50/50 after boarding.
The matchup vs goblins is good before and after boarding.
The matchup vs thresh is excellent.
In both matchups u just drop Humility (<=> platinum angel) and win.

For goyf-landstill I think the thresh matchup is still good but not as good as for non-goyf landstill. Thresh can here use their creature removal, which would be dead vs non-goyf landstill. And they run the faster deck, maybe u can sweep the board with EE or a deed but maybe they have the stifle and they play more spell snares for your key spells ( a resolved standstill should be enough in most games). Sure the balance wrecks thresh, but they play it on their own.

EDIT:

Why is that in the U/b/g/w and U/b/g Thread anyways? -Spam

To all of you who hasn't tested Elspeth yet:
DO IT - IT IS LIKE ANOTHER HUMILITY FOR THE DECK. -Spam

Well, in the american landstill variants for example vorosh or bardo's list planeswalkers would be crap.
FredMaster, look at my list, some post before and say what should I cut for elspeth.

[FredMaster]

Well, in the american landstill variants for example vorosh or bardo's list planeswalkers would be crap.
Why?


FredMaster, look at my list, some post before and say what should I cut for elspeth.
I'd cut a Ponder and a Dragon/Decree. The problem with cutting the Dragon is that you would loose your good looking manabase - although 23 Lands look a bit narrow.
If you would cut the Cunning Wish, which isn't necessary anymore imo due to Relic of Progenitus and playing Deed maindeck, you can drop a Decree and the 2 Wishes for 2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant and 1 Top/Enlightened Tutor/additional Land.

[URABAHN]

@Alix - You said it yourself, "redundant". That why it makes FoF weaker. I'd rather reveal another Land.


With a Top in play, I feel pretty confident about playing Standstill on a clear board against any deck that has a comparable number of Wastes and manlands (say, Dreadstill's 4x Wasteland/3x Factory vs. my 4x Factory/2x Monastery). You certainly can't make that play without Top.

So, you'd keep your Standstills in against other decks playing Standstill? Even post-board?

[Obfuscate Freely]

@Alix - You said it yourself, "redundant". That why it makes FoF weaker. I'd rather reveal another Land.
The sentence to which you are referring did have some content to it.

At that point in the game, a redundant Top is rarely worse than the best card on top of your library.
What I meant is that an extra Top will simply convert itself into the best card in the top three of your library, for just :1:. Thus, another land will rarely be better, and the possibility of you having to make this play certainly doesn't make Fact or Fiction somehow worse.

So, you'd keep your Standstills in against other decks playing Standstill? Even post-board?
No, probably not. The situation I described in my previous post is more likely to happen in the first game of a match.

[Mister Agent]

Top is gold standard in the early game. Top let's you manipulate your early draws and even helps you find that needed swords to plowshares or whatever is relevant at the time. In this regard, I consider Sensei's Tops as additional brainstorms.

However, as the late game becomes apparent that is when Fact or Fiction comes in place to be that Top and/or Standstill. I have an blast when playing Obfuscate Freely's Landstill build since you can go the whole nine yards as a control deck with all the utility draw that his deck possesses.

[3duece]

It's a bit off topic, but does anyone find themselves wanting to fit stifle back into this deck? I guess it's more of a metagame call, but the ad nauseum match has been really difficult for me since they always lead with duress or chant even if you have a force without a second force or mana up for counterspell you're already toast, and it seems like 3 stifle maindeck would be a really good answer to it in addition to force and counterspell, as well as stopping belcher,brainfreeze, lackey and vial, your opponents deeds and so on. I think they might help the TA matchup a bit as well, because they play such a weak manabase stifling even one fetch could keep them off double black for while. I dont know, I'm thinking maybe something like this:
4 flooded strand
4 polluted delta
4 tundra
3 tropical island
3 underground sea
4 mishra's factory
2 nantuko monastery

4 standstill
4 brainstorm
3 fact or fiction
4 counterspell
4 force of will
3 stifle
4 swords to plowshares
4 pernicious deed
2 engineered explosives
2 vedalken shackles
1 cruciible of worlds
1 life from the loam

I think it looks pretty good, I'll pick up some stifles and try it. Let me know if you guys have any other ideas or suggestions for improving the ad nauseum match.

[Serbitar]

The problem with Stifle against Ad Nauseam is, that they will always find Duress/Chant in the spells they will draw once Ad Nauseam resolves. So your priority has to be to stop AN, for which Stifle doesn't really help. You would probably be better off stifling fetches than trying to stifle Tendrils.

[Tacosnape]

The problem with Stifle against Ad Nauseam is, that they will always find Duress/Chant in the spells they will draw once Ad Nauseam resolves. So your priority has to be to stop AN, for which Stifle doesn't really help. You would probably be better off stifling fetches than trying to stifle Tendrils.

This. Is exactly why I don't run Stifle anymore.

You're better off with Spell Snare, Mage, your own Chants, or something along those lines.

[3duece]

What about 4 duress in the side? I like it because it can't be bounced and it actually pulls the ad nauseum where orim's chant would only keep it in their hand for a turn. It would also be strong in the control mirror. I know someone tried to run thoughtseize maindeck many pages back and liked it, but creatures certainly aren't this deck's problem, so I'll keep the two life. When I get a chance I'll try 4 duress in the board and let you know how it goes.

[Bardo]

What about 4 duress in the side?

I've been testing Chalice of the Void in the anti-combo sideboard slots and recommend you give them a try. They give you a turn-1 play vs Ad Nauseum (vs. LED and Petal), and turn 2 you turn off Ritual, Rites and Chants. Solid against a number of other decks. Like, have you ever dropped Chalice=3 vs. Faerie Stompy? Worth a good chuckle. Try 'em out.

[Irenicus]

@ Bardo:

I have tested your LS-Version quite a bit and am really happy with the maindeck. My current SB is this:

SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void

Chalice is a house vs every Combodeck, but I am not sure wether I would board them that much vs other decks.

[Bardo]

You board Chalice in vs. Thresh, Loam, Zoo, combo (obv), Elves (I suppose) anything that runs on a dirt-cheap curve (not Gobs or Affinity). It's pretty versatile in what it smashes and complements your Counterbalances.

[Irenicus]

I would not board CotV vs. all matchupw that you just listed up. E.g. vs Zoo, if you play CotV for 1, you stop your own StP and SDT for the CB-lock.

I think that CotV functions in a similar way like the CB-lock, but it hinders you too. Normally i wouldn't board them vs. any deck if i had to play it for x>1. Therefore, if my opponent plays alot of 1cc spells or a combodeck, i will board them but otherwise they'll stay in the board.

But anyway, I would be interested in your boardingplans with your board. Maybe I miss something at the moment.

[3duece]

I think I'm liking 4 duress out of the board against combo more than chalice. Duress pulls whatever enabler they have, buying a ton of time. Chalice at zero slows them a bit, but certainly doesn't stop them from comboing out, and chalice at 1 takes too long to cast, by then they'll have either gone off or be able to tutor or wish for chain of vapor, same problem with meddling mage. I just think duress is great in this match because you can play it turn one and their enabler isn't just sitting in hand waiting to have the hate bounced and be cast, they actually have to go find another ad nauseum or doomsday, which by then you should have a good enough hand to stop them (force with fodder and either counterspell or spell snare with mana up).

[Irenicus]

First of all Chain of Vapor can't bounce CotV set @ 1. Secondly the best tutor to find bounce is Mystical which needs to be played in response in order to resolve. Thirdly Infernal Tutor wont find bounce without hellbent. Therefore there is only Mystical in reponse to CotV and B. Wish for something like Shattering Spree.
I am a comboplayer by heart and I can say that Ad Nauseam has more trouble dealing with CotV than Duress.
Another bonus of CotV is that it's colorless.

I think it all comes to personal taste and intersection between your sideboardslots for the combomatchup and other sideboardchoices.

[3duece]

Hmm, sounds reasonable. I'll have to try them both again and compare results.

[3duece]

So I wanted to pose a question regarding 2 open slots in my deck. They were once occupied by humility but I decided the double white requirement is too much and you can still die to a ton of 1/1s. So I replaced them with vedalken shackles with great success. The control magic effect is great in this deck and it's ability to be reused is excellent. The problem now is that it has trouble dealing with alot of the prevalent creatures in the format. Decks packing goyf and/or tombstalker often have enough land disruption to keep you off the requisite islands (thrash and TA) and you straight up can't steal dreadnought. So I looked into threads of disloyalty which seems great but it can't get tombstalker or most goblins. After looking at that horrendous thread in the format discussion area I was reminded of two cards, both of which I think have great potential. I think I should also say that I run a four color list with only six manlands and loam/crucible for the kill.

Dominate-X1UU
instant
Gain control of target creature with converted mana cost X.

I realize this is mana intensive but I'm searching for more of a utility finisher anyway so its late game orientation is okay with me. I feel this is a badass card mostly because it's an instant and can take anything on the board in response to attack step declaration or end step, including manlands. And since its not an enchantment it really can't be answered short of vedalken shackles or your opponent removing his own creature. Seems strong to me.

Control Magic-2UU
enchant creature
Gain control of enchanted creature

This is the classic of course. I think it's quite strong mostly because of it's versatility. It gets any creature that can be targeted, no questions asked. Plus enchantments are the hardest permanents to remove in legacy outside of plainswalkers.

I think I'm leaning toward a pair of dominates in my deck for chicago (sounds really strange saying that). Anyway, any help or suggestions would be appreciated. I'd be happy to post my list again if anyone needs it for reference. Cheers.

[Tacosnape]

Dominate is interesting, just not versatile and fairly overcosted. It won't help you in certain matchups and won't ever get certain creatures (Unless, you know, you've got the thirteen to Dominate a Tombstalker.) It's five for a Goyf, the comparison point of all creatures in Legacy, and as more creatures in this format cost two mana than any other total, this will pretty much be the going price. As you said, though, it does have the luxury of not being reversible once you do it.

Oddly enough, I find this most fascinating in a Landstill mirror. Not because I think it would be particularly good, but because I'd just absolutely love to Dominate an opponent's Factory.

[3duece]

Yeah, I'm not yet sold on it. But I think it really has its advantages. I know it's five for a goyf, but its five for a goyf on your opponent's end step, not tapping down in your main phase. Or it's five mana for a goyf to block and kill his goose. And its krosan grip proof. Plus steeling steeling an opponents dreadnought in response to his subsequent standstill is mean.

[Tacosnape]

Yeah, I'm not yet sold on it. But I think it really has its advantages. I know it's five for a goyf, but its five for a goyf on your opponent's end step, not tapping down in your main phase. Or it's five mana for a goyf to block and kill his goose. And its krosan grip proof.

I agree, it is all that, except for the Goyf/Goose part, as they'll either be swinging with both and therefore you'll get a Tapped Goyf or they'll have the option not to swing with the Goose.

I might look into Dominate as a 1-of, as my latest fascination with this deck is trying to randomly sneak backup kill conditions into other deck slots and see how the results go (Singleton Jace, singleton Crime//Punishment, Singleton Shriekmaw, etc.) Probably not, though. I'm only trying this in builds maindecking 3-4 Snares instead of my Mages, too.


Plus steeling steeling an opponents dreadnought in response to his subsequent standstill is mean.

Okay, yeah, that's sexier than Dominating the Factory. Until you spend the 4 and they Daze you and you lose, anyway. Still, though, if you pull that shit off with an ultimately underplayed card? I tip my hat to you.

EDIT: I really have to admit I completely didn't know this card existed until today except in the back of my mind. Fascinating.

[Obfuscate Freely]

I'd play Control Magic all day in pre-sideboard games, because it's so unconditional and rather undercosted for the effect (compare it to, say Flametongue Kavu). However, once my opponent sideboards in a set of Krosan Grips, Control Magic becomes quite a liability.

Dominate is interesting because of it's invulnerability to Grip, but it basically has the same limitations as Threads of Disloyalty. If you're running Deed as your sweeper, I think you should think twice about running more answers that don't hit Tombstalker.

[Tacosnape]

Dominate is interesting because of it's invulnerability to Grip, but it basically has the same limitations as Threads of Disloyalty. If you're running Deed as your sweeper, I think you should think twice about running more answers that don't hit Tombstalker.

Agreed. Tombstalker's losing it's underratedness fast, as people are realizing just how nuts the card is. And this deck's currently running 5-7 removal spells that -don't- kill Tombstalker (Usually, anyway. I did Deed a Stalker once in a Source tourney in one game, but yeah.) This is also why I can never stick with Shriekmaw as my secondary creature removal spell. Tombstalker is surprisingly not an easy guy to hit.

[Tinefol]

Taco, could you give us a few tips on how to use maindeck Meddling Mage effectively? Like when and what to name in which matchups?

I've tried your build recently, and although spell snares were good enough in s/b, I was completely lost with Mage.

For example, recently I've played against a Faerie deck and It just seemed so dead, sitting in hand. I had no idea what to name, yet looking at the match in retrospective, I find that I could've named a few things, which might have helped me. And I'm not really sure, how to use it against Threshold, Goblins, Team America, Dreadstill, mirror.

If I come unable to use it effectively, what to use instead of Mages? I've tried playing Tarmogoyf, which seemed good enough a couple of times, I have thoughts about Snare, SDT (with C/B in sideboard). And how do I change my S/B after placing Mages back in it?

[Tacosnape]

Taco, could you give us a few tips on how to use maindeck Meddling Mage effectively? Like when and what to name in which matchups?

I've tried your build recently, and although spell snares were good enough in s/b, I was completely lost with Mage.

For example, recently I've played against a Faerie deck and It just seemed so dead, sitting in hand. I had no idea what to name, yet looking at the match in retrospective, I find that I could've named a few things, which might have helped me. And I'm not really sure, how to use it against Threshold, Goblins, Team America, Dreadstill, mirror.

If I come unable to use it effectively, what to use instead of Mages? I've tried playing Tarmogoyf, which seemed good enough a couple of times, I have thoughts about Snare, SDT (with C/B in sideboard). And how do I change my S/B after placing Mages back in it?

The problem with maindeck Mage is you have to pretty much memorize the core decklists of every common deck you can come across, and then, from that, be able to look at a card or two in an opponent's hand, remember every play they've made so far, and deduce "What could they be holding that would have made them not play this card thus far." Then you have to decide if it's even worth playing the Mage for that card or not. So it's very very hard to give any kind of core strategy for doing this. It's just something you practice. Keep asking yourself "What could they be holding that they wouldn't have played?" It's actually a fun little game to practice with Mage and Therapy both, and even if you don't get to the point of thinking the maindeck Mages are worth it, your playskill will increase as a result, and you'll find yourself analyzing the game more deeply. Mage is one of the most skill intensive cards in the game.

At times this strategy deviates, as certain decks have just one or two cards you shut off at all costs.

If you don't maindeck Mages, I'd suggest making at least three of the slots Spell Snare. At this point you run into the dilemma of needing more backup on kill conditions, so I'd return the single Loam to maindeck, and possibly try to get one or two more random kills in, like a Crime//Punishment over an EE, or a Jace over a Fact or Fiction, or a Shriekmaw over an Edict. All of these have their drawbacks even in singleton, but kill diversity can be important.

My sideboard, as of current, without maindeck Mages:
4 Meddling Mage
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Engineered Plague
3 Extirpate
1 ??? (Currently a singleton Chalice. Random, but possibly better than Plague or Extirpate #4. Could be Blast #5.)

[Tinefol]

Played this list in local 30players tournament

// Lands
4 [R] Tundra
4 [R] Underground Sea
4 [R] Tropical Island
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
2 [JU] Nantuko Monastery

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
4 [OD] Standstill
3 [IN] Fact or Fiction
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [7E] Counterspell
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
4 [MM] Brainstorm
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [DIS] Spell Snare

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [4E] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate

Finished in top4, losing to Aggro-Loam 1-2 in semi-finals.
Tarmogoyf have been the MVP, winning a couple of games on its own. Spell Snare came very handful indeed.

The card I was mostly disappointed in, was, surprisingly Standstill. Out of 7 rounds, I have only casted it in one or two games. It was mostly a dead weight (well, except that it fetched to FoW once or twice), as opponents always had something relevant on table, which didn't let me cast Standstill. The deck played smoothly around this though :)

Moreover, I had to board Standstill out most of the time. It just seemed that metagame was so overloaded with tricky aggro-control decks. 4 rounds I've faced Vial/wasteland creature decks, where standstill is more of a tie to you, once I've faced Ichorid, where standstill doesn't do much either.
And it isn't that solid against aggro-loam either.

I a little bit puzzled on how the deck which is named after this card, wasn't even able to play it. I'm also puzzled, how I could've pulled out the result in a hating metagame of vial/wasteland/stifle decks.

[Omega]

I think you had a bad day, that's all. Standstill is a superb card. The CA you can gain from it is incredible.

0 basic. Yea, that works only in meta where there are 0 Moon effect.

Our meta is becoming more and more Dreadstill/TA/Tres.hold/landstill (with wasteland/dust), i think it isnt a good idea to play 4c, although 4c is probably superior to other landstill

Robert

[Tacosnape]

Your opponents always had something relevant on the table because you don't run enough removal for that type of Landstill. That or you misplayed your counters and countered the wrong things at the wrong time, which is common, but I can't say based on not watching you play.

You also probably had a bad day. Standstill wins games.

[Misplayer]

I've felt that one of the more difficult aspects of playing the 4c build is that you can't operate under Standstill aside from smashing with man-lands, whereas the 3c versions can usually build up a manabase with Eternal Dragon and then cycle a huge Decree of Justice. It's interesting how differently the two builds play because of this. It's also possible that I'm just doing it wrong.

Taco, you mention that Tinefol does not run enough removal. What would you cut from his list? Nothing stands out to me except maybe a Brainstorm or Spell Snare. Also, what's better to add, Diabolic Edict or Vindicate? I'd lean towards Vindicate to dodge/destroy Counterbalance and for pure versatility.

On a semi-related note, does Path to Exile get a spot in this deck? Obviously testing is warranted, but what is everybody's first impression?

[Tacosnape]

Taco, you mention that Tinefol does not run enough removal. What would you cut from his list? Nothing stands out to me except maybe a Brainstorm or Spell Snare. Also, what's better to add, Diabolic Edict or Vindicate? I'd lean towards Vindicate to dodge/destroy Counterbalance and for pure versatility.

Easy. Tarmogoyf. And I personally like playing at instant speeds rather than playing The Rock with Blue, so I'd pick Diabolic Edict. That said? Vindicate isn't really a bad choice. Counterbalance isn't all that bad though, as Deed/Snare and especially EE rock it.


On a semi-related note, does Path to Exile get a spot in this deck? Obviously testing is warranted, but what is everybody's first impression?

No. Bad cards don't make the cut.

[Tinefol]

Taco, what really happened is that half of the time I've seen Vial turn one on table. Three decks I've faced played Mutavault (Mishra) + Wastelands, which is not good for us either. Would you play a Standstill on empty table looking at opposite side Mutavault? Having no man lands yourself, thx to Wasteland?

Why do you dislike Tarmogoyf? And why do you think the deck lacks removal? Anyway, If I'm to keep at least 2-3 Tarmos, how can I adjust the deck?

[Tacosnape]

Taco, what really happened is that half of the time I've seen Vial turn one on table. Three decks I've faced played Mutavault (Mishra) + Wastelands, which is not good for us either. Would you play a Standstill on empty table looking at opposite side Mutavault? Having no man lands yourself, thx to Wasteland?

Why do you dislike Tarmogoyf? And why do you think the deck lacks removal? Anyway, If I'm to keep at least 2-3 Tarmos, how can I adjust the deck?

First things first. Tarmogoyf, just like any other threat in the universe, just turns on the STP's and other removal your opponent's been wondering wtf to do with all game. I'm a believer in doing one of two things with Landstill:

1. Make your opponent's targeted creature removal pretty much useless.
2. Run more targets for it than they can hit.

#1 can be accomplished via Decree of Justice, Loam/Crucible, weird shit like Jace Beleren, or even something as random as a Morphling that can shroud out of shit.
#2 is trickier. 4 Tarmogoyfs sometimes pulls this off, but not quite consistently enough. Doing #2 means you're barely Landstill anymore.

As for decks packing Vials, Standstills, Threats, Mutavaults, and Wastes (I can only assume you're facing Merfolk), then yes, Standstill is going to suck here. If you anticipate this coming often enough, load up on Engineered Explosives and Spell Snares, and try Crucible of Worlds over Loam for superiority under the Standstill. Postboard, bring in whatever hate you've got and let them have their Standstill superiority. Try to counter their Standstills, and get your card superiority off Fact or Fiction, as well as virtual card advantage from EE and Deed.

It's worth noting that you're absolutely right, Standstill sucks against Ichorid, too. That sounds like a fairly awful metagame to be playing Landstill, truth be told.

To answer your initial question, you could try Tarmogoyfs for Edicts. If you're facing as much Wasteland pain as you are, though, a singleton Loam gives you inevitability in the long game.

[Tinefol]

Problem is, our manlands seek for that same STP attention too. Before I started playing Tarmogoyfs, I oftentimes lacked threats which could've let me win quicker. When one of your threats gets STP, and another gets wastelanded, it kind of sucks. My meta is very 'wastelandeish', so waiting for a win-condition for turn after turn is not that good. With Tarmogoyf it got better, and it seals the deal quite quickly, unlike Mishra Factories.

You are almost correct about merfolk, except that two decks were slivers (similar fish package of vial/mutavault/wasteland/daze/stifle/standstill - omg), and they weren't that hard to deal with, except that my own standstills sucked, and third deck was bw zoo (vials/mishra/wasteland).

*On a question, why play Standstill at all - its basically the only viable deck I have. And I enjoy playing it.

So what other options do I have for more win conditions? I've already tried with and without loams, Decree isn't that good in 4c, I have doubts about Jace too... Tarmogoyf just seemed the most powerful thing available.

[3duece]

Knight of the Reliquary
1gw
Creature - Human Knight Rare
Knight of the Reliquary gets +1/+1 for each land card in your graveyard.
{T}, Sacrifice a Forest or Plains: Search your library for a land card, put it into play, then shuffle your library.
2/2

What do you guys think about this as an alt-win, maybe a 2of? Especially if people are looking for a quicker wincon, 4c landstill can make this thing huge with 8 fetches. Plus it gets more factories and monasteries out. And the 3cc helps him evade both counterbalance and your own deeds. Maybe I'm giving this guy too much credit, but if landstill is going to play a creature then this one seems like a damn good choice. I think he's already the Rafiq that threshold wanted three months ago, but I think he could work well here as well.

[from Cairo]

Knight of the Reliquary
1gw
Creature - Human Knight Rare
Knight of the Reliquary gets +1/+1 for each land card in your graveyard.
{T}, Sacrifice a Forest or Plains: Search your library for a land card, put it into play, then shuffle your library.
2/2

What do you guys think about this as an alt-win, maybe a 2of? Especially if people are looking for a quicker wincon, 4c landstill can make this thing huge with 8 fetches. Plus it gets more factories and monasteries out. And the 3cc helps him evade both counterbalance and your own deeds. Maybe I'm giving this guy too much credit, but if landstill is going to play a creature then this one seems like a damn good choice. I think he's already the Rafiq that threshold wanted three months ago, but I think he could work well here as well.

I think you're giving it too much credit. It's still mostly a vanilla creature. It is huge late game, but it's still a big target for any creature removal your opponent's been holding, it has no evasion (flying or trample), it provides no means to protect (shroud, or like Elspeth or Garruk being able to create a token to protect the Planeswalker) or recur itself (like Eternal Dragon).

Honestly it seems worse in Landstill than Tarmogoyf. Since Goyf can go agro early game and randomly pull wins for you threshold style, it's less dependent on the graveyard and being in the late game.

[3duece]

I think you're giving it too much credit. It's still mostly a vanilla creature. It is huge late game, but it's still a big target for any creature removal your opponent's been holding, it has no evasion (flying or trample), it provides no means to protect (shroud, or like Elspeth or Garruk being able to create a token to protect the Planeswalker) or recur itself (like Eternal Dragon).

Honestly it seems worse in Landstill than Tarmogoyf. Since Goyf can go agro early game and randomly pull wins for you threshold style, it's less dependent on the graveyard and being in the late game.

I see what you're saying, that's what I was afraid of. The thing is, everything you pointed out against the knight also plagues tarmogoyf. Tarmogoyf is usually a 3/4 on turn three with no abilities. The knight will likely be a 4/4, making himself a 5/5 the next turn.

All that is not to say that he is playable in this deck, but I think he deserves a good look, especially that ability.

[Viscosity]

Knight of the Reliquary
1gw
Creature - Human Knight Rare
Knight of the Reliquary gets +1/+1 for each land card in your graveyard.
{T}, Sacrifice a Forest or Plains: Search your library for a land card, put it into play, then shuffle your library.
2/2

What do you guys think about this as an alt-win, maybe a 2of? Especially if people are looking for a quicker wincon, 4c landstill can make this thing huge with 8 fetches. Plus it gets more factories and monasteries out. And the 3cc helps him evade both counterbalance and your own deeds. Maybe I'm giving this guy too much credit, but if landstill is going to play a creature then this one seems like a damn good choice. I think he's already the Rafiq that threshold wanted three months ago, but I think he could work well here as well.

This is a aggro-loam card maybe, not landstill. I guess it's closest relative is terravor.

Terravor has been around and I'm sure people aren't using it in landstill for a reason. As mentioned, it just gets removed, and landstill's strength is not in playing permanents that get removed (often to your own removal =/)

I'm not sure which is better though; Terravor or this guy. Terravor is */* but counts both player's yards and he has TRAMPLE. So *shrug* I'm not sure which will be played.

[Tinefol]

And so I have finally won a tournament. Considering Taco's notes, I've changed the deck a little bit:

// Lands
3 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Nantuko Monastery

// Creatures
2 Tarmogoyf
1 Shriekmaw

// Spells
4 [OD] Standstill
2 [IN] Fact or Fiction
1 Jace Beleren
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Spell Snare
1 Diabolic Edict

// Sideboard (Metagame call)
SB: 4 Meddling Mage
SB: 4 Engineered Plague
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 Extirpate

I've added two more removal spells, though trying to keep the number of win conditios more or less the same. The brief report:

Round 1. Ichorid.
Game 1. Turn 3 Breakthrough - Dread Return loss, chanceless.
Game 2. Sideboarded all the 15 cards :) Leyline of the Void - "oops I didn't expect that - have no bounce", scoop on the first turn.
Game 3. Leyline of the Void. Opponent bounced it on his first turn but he had no dredge outlets in a first few turns, so I proceeded to hardcast Leyline, then backed it up by 2 Meddling Mages and Plagues on Horror and Illusion.
2-1, 2-1, 3 points

Round 2. Charbelcher
Game 1. We both mulligan to 6, and as I didn't know the deck I'm facing, I kept a hand without Force. He comboed out quickly and deadly. Headshot :)
Game 2. We mulligan to 5, he had no immediate combo, I've casted Meddling Mage, then slowrolled for the victory.
Game 3. Game went into timers and then additional 5 turns. I had early force, then played Meddling Mage, and killed just in time on 5th additional move with Factory and Monastery.
2-1, 4-2, 6 points

Round 3. Counter Sliver.
Game 1. I've sucessfully chained 2 Standstills, while controlling the board, and that let me win easily.
Game 2. Was a little bit harder, as I got Needle on Explosives, but I managed to stall the game with Plague and hardcasted Shriekmaw, then Perdeed cleared the board and then I've got second Plague down.
2-0, 6-2, 9 points

Round 4 & Round 5, ID

1/8 Same guy with counter slivers.
Game 1 & 2. Pretty much the same scenario as in Round 3 :)

1/4 UGw Threshold with Rhox War Monks.
Game 1. Turn 2 Standstill, and then he just never had enough threats to make any problems to me.
Game 2. Game went on in the same style until he casted Back to Basics. I forced, he forced back, gg. I had the Explosives for it, but not enough mana to blow them, and he Gripped these explosives the next turn.
Game 3. Much tougher game, I remember forcing B2B, then we emptied hands (he casted creatures, I killed them), and then we got into topdeck mode, but I had Shriekmaw already, and together with freshly topdecked Mage they've finished the game.

Finals. UR Dreadstill.
Game 1. Early standstill won me the game here, as I've completely controlled the table, Tarmogoyf and factory beat for the win.
Game 2. The game of playing around stifle effects, I've STPed 2 or 3 Dreadnoughts, then started slowly killing with Jace Beleren for fun :) I was successful, although the game lasted for a while.

[Tacosnape]

I -like- that list. Jace over the third Fact and Shriekmaw over the second Edict make for interesting kill conditions without dedicating too many slots to the kill. I'd miss the Loam in that, though.

[jazzykat]

I think a singleton Jace is very cool and should find its way into more landstill builds. Lately I have really been loving Vindicate and having been squeezing one or more into just about any list with BW in it. Your lack of it is saddening, but hey results do speak for themselves.

[Tinefol]

After winning the legacy league qualifier (the brief report a few posts ago) I've also topped8 the legacy league finals (for those who placed 1-2 at qualifiers):
http://www.deckcheck.net/print.php?event=Legacy+League+Moscow+Finals

Lost to Team America in top8. First game featured insane draws from Team America (that happens sometimes), but the second have been much worse.
Wasteland on Underground Sea, followed by Extirpate - "woops, I scoop". Do we have any reasonable plan there?

I like Vindicate, might even add one. The thing I'm worried about - the mana color problem of course. If I have to choose between BG and BW, I'll go for BG, because there's Perdeed, and there are 4 copies of it.

[Serbitar]

Why would you scoop to Extirpate on Underground Sea? Was your hand all Deeds/Edicts (which aren't even great against TA)? Sans Shriekmaw none of your winconditions depend on black mana.

[Tacosnape]

Lost to Team America in top8. First game featured insane draws from Team America (that happens sometimes), but the second have been much worse.
Wasteland on Underground Sea, followed by Extirpate - "woops, I scoop". Do we have any reasonable plan there?

Run a build that doesn't require color to win. I've been investigating builds with 4 Factory/Mutavaults and axing Monestary. And if Jace Beleren is your backup kill? Waste/Extirpate on a color doesn't shut off your kills, just a few spells. Extirpate on my Sea shuts me off of six, Extirpate on Tundra shuts me off of 4 (6 with Monestary), and Extirpate on Green shuts me off of 5 (7 with Monestary). This isn't counting cards I board in, but still. It's also worth noting that if you axe Monestary and aren't running Stalker or Goyf, you can look into maindecking or boarding Relic of Progenitus.

Your secondary plan for this is cutting white. Wretched Banquet isn't Swords to Plowshares, but it's close. And while there's no real replacement for Meddling Mage, there are options, ranging from Counterbalance to a man plan to extra Krosan Grips. Doing this, you'd take the manabase and do something like this:

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
1 Bayou (Gives you your splash colors.)
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Mutavault

Your third plan is to run Living Wish. Living Wish simultaneously solves your manabase problems and potential lack of kill conditions, yet at the cost of making your sideboard more limited, which can suck.

While Extirpate/Wasteland is rare, it's worth noting that hitting a splash color nonbasic might be Extirpate's very best use. And this is worth keeping an eye on, as it can be problematic.

[Tinefol]

That extirpate happened very early, like turn 2 or 3. Then a few turns later I found myself facing Goyf and Tombstalker, having perdeed & edict in hand. My only STP got FoWed.

Goyf and Stalker put a very quick clock on you, so I mainly lost to the lack of removal, which was due to shutting me off black mana. Extirpate on your dual is a very bad thing, and it often can win a game for your opponent almost outright.

I even thought of running singletons Watery Grave/Hallowed Fountain/Breeding Pool, but that probably sucks.

I like the Living Wish plan! I'd easily replace Goyfs with it! 2 Living Wishes MD sounds like right.

But what would you run in your SB for it? I'd probably dedicate no more than 4-5 slots for wish.

[Tacosnape]

I even thought of running singletons Watery Grave/Hallowed Fountain/Breeding Pool, but that probably sucks.

It does. Not as bad as you might think, but it's still not worth it. Most games it won't make a huge difference either way, but I've tried this extensively, and right now I'd say you'll lose more games to the Shock-or-Tapped drawback than you will to Wasteland/Extirpate.


I like the Living Wish plan! I'd easily replace Goyfs with it! 2 Living Wishes MD sounds like right.

But what would you run in your SB for it? I'd probably dedicate no more than 4-5 slots for wish.

I wouldn't warrant messing up your sideboard for any less than 3 Living Wishes. I ran Four. It's easy to cut a couple extra cards (Like removal) for them, given that you can wish for removal.

Now, keep in mind, I'm not advocating the Living Wish structure. I think it's very workable, but I didn't like the Rockish-feel it gave the deck in having to do so much on my turn and reducing my instant speed options and reactivity.

That said, I would run the following, to cover the weaknesses of the deck without overcommitting the sideboard:

1 Land
1 Creature Removal Slot
1 Artifact/Enchantment removal Slot
1 Graveyard Hate Slot
1 Lifegain Slot
0-1 Wasteland

For the slots, I recommend the following.

Land: a Blue Fetchland if you aren't running 8. A Scrubland if you are, since casting Living Wish means you have Blue/Green.

Creature Removal: Shriekmaw, or possibly Fleshbag Marauder if you cut Edict altogether.

Art/Enc Removal: Wickerbough Elder or Harmonic Sliver.

Yard Hate: Loaming Shaman. Resets their yard and hangs around for the kill. Maybe Faerie Macabre if you anticipate a lot of Survival.

Lifegain Slot: Probably Loxodon Hierarch.

Wasteland: If you want it.

[3duece]

@ tacosnape:

Have you considered vedalken shackles as an alternate win that doesn't use a color? I know it needs islands in play, but just five really, you're not going to steal dreadnought with it anyway. I've been running one with a single enlightened tutor main and I like it alot. It gives me another answer to tombstalker outside of swords and evades counterbalance pretty well. I know its a good grip target but I figure the deck can use as many grip targets as it can get. It's not a 'hard' win condition but its very good against the vast majority of the field right now, especially with the low threat density. My current list looks like this:
4 tundra
3 tropical island
3 underground sea
4 flooded strand
4 polluted delta
4 mishra's factory
2 nantuko monastery
1 crucible of worlds
1 life from the loam

4 standstill
4 brainstorm
3 fact or fiction
4 counterspell
4 force of will
2 spell snare

4 swords to plowshares
4 pernicious deed
2 engineered explosives
1 vedalken shackles
1 oblivion ring
1 enlightened tutor

4 blue elemental blast
4 chalice of the void
4 tormod's crypt
3 krosan grip

[Tacosnape]

The problem with Vedalken Shackles is if your opponent gets it in his head that his strategy is to run you out of kill conditions, he's just not going to play a creature and give you a kill condition. So whilst it can randomly provide you the means to kill your opponent, it doesn't actually help this problem.

[Tinefol]

I see Shackles as a viable and somewhat reusable board control tool that can become win condition. Do I miss any cons there? Perhaps a singleton is worth trying.

[3duece]

Taco, you are correct in that it's not always a win condition, but in the scenario you described vedalken shackles is quite powerful in that you're opponent will just avoid playing creatures altogether. A card that costs 3 and says 'your opponents can't play creatures' is very strong. But usually when I use shackles I drop it on a board with at least one creature, generally stealing a goblin to block a goblin or my favorite, stealing a tombstalker to block a tarmogoyf. Once you steal one creature your opponent finds himself in a situation where they either must play a blocker (usually a chump blocker), two-for-one-ing himself or die.

Shackles is exactly as tinefold described, a reusable board control utility that doubles as a conditional (but marginally so) win condition.

[Tacosnape]

Taco, you are correct in that it's not always a win condition, but in the scenario you described vedalken shackles is quite powerful in that you're opponent will just avoid playing creatures altogether. A card that costs 3 and says 'your opponents can't play creatures' is very strong.

You're not paying attention. In the scenario I described Vedalken Shackles is completely useless. The scenario I am describing is this:

Your opponent has decided that you are more than capable of dealing with every threat or win condition he can possibly drop, and is thereby going to try to kill you by running you out of kill conditions and letting you deck yourself due to the excess draw you've used via Standstill, Fact or Fiction, Brainstorm, Fetchlands, and whatever else.

As such, not playing a creature in no way disrupts your opponent's plan, barring something random like him needing Eternal Witness recursion on an Extirpate or a Wasteland or a Swords or something to do it, in which case you could steal the 2/1 body.

Whether or not Vedalken Shackles is a beast in other scenarios can be left open to interpretation. I personally don't play it because it's weak in the early/midgame due to the fact that in the early game, the ratio of threat size to mana spent to play said threat is pretty skewed in modern Legacy. That said, I've had my ass kicked by it enough times to know it's incredible in certain situations.

[3duece]

Taco, I promise i'm paying attention. I understand the situation you described, I understand what you mean by it. I think this is my fault for not being completely clear. If my opponent has it in mind to run me out of cards, then he has a poor strategy in mind altogether. Now, I assume we're both talking about decks that run wasteland and board in extirpate. I guess that's team america and black/4c thresh maybe. They both run eight - twelve cantrips, meaning that as long as we hold fact or fiction, its actually quite easy to play a standstill and crack it, leaving the opponent with less cards than me. So, even if they eliminate my manlands they can still be decked fairly easily just off my own selfcracked standstills. That's what I meant, that in the situation you described their strategy is poor and they will lose anyway, if nothing else shackles is making them misplay. Sorry I wasn't clear (no sarcasm).

[Tacosnape]

Taco, I promise i'm paying attention. I understand the situation you described, I understand what you mean by it. I think this is my fault for not being completely clear. If my opponent has it in mind to run me out of cards, then he has a poor strategy in mind altogether.

Not necessarily. Decks don't have to commit to this strategy at the beginning of a game, for one, and for two, some decks can do this fairly effectively. It's uncommon, but it's something to be aware of. My friend plays BGW Rock with two maindeck Extirpate, meaning between Vindicate, Swords, Witness, Extirpate, Living Wish for Wasteland, Pernicious Deed, and Thoughtseize to snag my counters and draw, he has an incredible number of ways to deal with my kill conditions. I can consistently keep him off his kills every single game, but I can't always keep him from running me out of kills. Therefore, unless he gets an incredible start, he'll usually switch into "Deck Taco" mode and try to win the match 1-0 on time with a ridiculously long first game.

My point is, if decking 4C Landstill is a valid strategy in some matches, and I believe while it's uncommon, it often can be, whether established beforehand or evolving from circumstances in a game, Vedalken Shackles isn't going to help here.


Now, I assume we're both talking about decks that run wasteland and board in extirpate. I guess that's team america and black/4c thresh maybe. They both run eight - twelve cantrips, meaning that as long as we hold fact or fiction, its actually quite easy to play a standstill and crack it, leaving the opponent with less cards than me. So, even if they eliminate my manlands they can still be decked fairly easily just off my own selfcracked standstills. That's what I meant, that in the situation you described their strategy is poor and they will lose anyway, if nothing else shackles is making them misplay. Sorry I wasn't clear (no sarcasm).

I completely agree with this. And I think neither Team America nor Threshold should be attempting to run you out of kill conditions. It's a poor strategy for them. If either of those two decks is boarding in Extirpate, they should be trying to keep you off a color instead. And I'm glad to know I'm not the only one who's won games off of self-cracked Standstills.:cool:

[Tinefol]

How can we shift maindeck to make our bad graveyard match ups (loam based decks, maybe ichorid) at least winnable? I oftentimes find myself wastelocked by loam and feel so hopeless. Almost desperate. I don't really like to lose chancelessly. The only chance you have is that they don't get loam early, but that happens like all the time against me. One possibility is maindeck Meddling Mage, but is that really enough?

Also what set of sideboard graveyard hate would you run in graveyard heavy environment? I'm lost between Leyline of the Void/Relic of Progenitus/Extirpate.

And yet another question that comes to mind, how many fetchlands we are to use? 6-7-8? How do you justify that number?

[DuKeLiO]

You can also play Cunning Wish to access Extirpate. I have won a lot of g1 against Loam, 43 Land and some against Ichorid. Another opcion is playing maindeck Relic of Progenitus. It is cantrip and does 0/1 Tarmogoyfs. It is an absolute pain against Loam and Threshold.
The third way is to play Meddling Mages main, like Taco does, but I would not do it unleast I have to play Landstill in a metagame where I must not play Landstill.

[Tacosnape]

Play maindeck Relics. They'll solve the Loam issues. I've moved my Mages back to board after testing Relic extensively. I run two maindeck Relics and am torn on my sideboard between running the other two Relics or two Extirpates. Generally I prefer the Relics, but in some control mirrors and rare situations the Extirpates have proven useful.

[jrp]

I'm trying to create a build that utilizes maindecked Relic of Progenitus, but I'm worried about the lack of win conditions:

3 Relic of Progenitus
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Pernicious Deed
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Crime//Punishment (A slight concesssion over EE#2 to increase win conditions)
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Standstill
3 Fact or Fiction
2 Spell Snare
2 Diabolic Edict (Maybe one of these should be another win condition?)

7 Blue Fetches
3 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Tundra
4 Mishra's Factory
3/2 Mutavault
0/1 Nantuko Monastery

SB
4 Engineered Plague
4 Meddling Mage
3 Extirpate/Relic#4/Duress/Spell Snare/Ajani Goldmane - Meta Dependent
4 Blue Elemental Blast

I read where someone switched out FoF#3 for a singleton Jace - maybe this is worth a try. Also, I love the maindeck relic, but it forces me away from my singleton Life from the Loam, which I really enjoyed in the deck - and made me worry a lot less about someone completely running me out of ways to win the game.

Taco - what does your MD Relic list look like?

[3duece]

Play maindeck Relics. They'll solve the Loam issues. I've moved my Mages back to board after testing Relic extensively. I run two maindeck Relics and am torn on my sideboard between running the other two Relics or two Extirpates. Generally I prefer the Relics, but in some control mirrors and rare situations the Extirpates have proven useful.

Does this mean you've given up loam completely and switched monasteries to mutavaults? The power of relic is obvious, but monastery is such a house. I'm assuming its a 4 factory/3 vault split. Is this killing quickly enough for you? I know we've discussed alternate wincons in the past, have you found anything new worthwhile? Mystic enforcer seems like it could be good, but then again I thought dominate could be good for a second, so maybe not. Help a brotha out.

[Tinefol]

It seems that everybody have overlooked my fetchlands question :) I currently run 7. Tried 6 but sometimes Ifelt it wasn't enough. Should I up the count to 8? If not, why?

Surprisingly enough, Relic isn't that bad with Monastery it all. Out of the games I've played using Relic, I haven't found it too hard to fill the graveyard again.

About wincons - basically what we need for is something with shroud and some kind of evasion. Two creatures come to mind - Morphling and Simic Sky Swallower. Both of them are somewhat to heavy for this deck :/

jrp, I think Snare is only worth running if you have 3 or 4. I would've replaced them for something. Jace is good, so is a singleton Shriekmaw. I actually won 2 games off Jace already, so it does work as win condition.

[3duece]

It seems that everybody have overlooked my fetchlands question :) I currently run 7. Tried 6 but sometimes Ifelt it wasn't enough. Should I up the count to 8? If not, why?

Surprisingly enough, Relic isn't that bad with Monastery it all. Out of the games I've played using Relic, I haven't found it too hard to fill the graveyard again.

About wincons - basically what we need for is something with shroud and some kind of evasion. Two creatures come to mind - Morphling and Simic Sky Swallower. Both of them are somewhat to heavy for this deck :/

jrp, I think Snare is only worth running if you have 3 or 4. I would've replaced them for something. Jace is good, so is a singleton Shriekmaw. I actually won 2 games off Jace already, so it does work as win condition.

I've found 8 fetches to be pretty unconditional. This deck want double blue very fast, but also needs to cast deed, which uses both the off colors. That plus we're squeezing 6 colorless sources into 24 lands makes 8 fetches necessary, and they optimize brainstorm and top if you play it.

On spell snare, I think alot of people view it as an early game only card so they say its not worthwhile unless you play 3 or 4. The thing is, spell snare doesn't lose its efficacy in the long game against most decks like daze or mana leak because most decks have very low curves and will be playing 2cc spells the whole game.

On win conditions, I think I'm actually happy running 6 manlands with 1 each of crucible/loam and a singleton vedalken shackles. It's working pretty well for me so far but perhaps I havent tested under the worst circumstances yet.

[Obfuscate Freely]

It seems that everybody have overlooked my fetchlands question :) I currently run 7. Tried 6 but sometimes Ifelt it wasn't enough. Should I up the count to 8? If not, why?

We did have a little bit of discussion on this topic, not long ago.


I'd like to talk about manabases a little more. I keep seeing 4-color lists with less than eight fetchlands, and several basics, and these strike me as very poor decisions. I mean, I have lost tournament games (and matches) precisely because I couldn't access a certain color of mana, and much moreso than I have lost because of Moon effects or Stifles. And I have never lost a game because I ran out of lands to fetch, or anything like that.

For reference, my manabase:

4x Mishra's Factory
2x Nantuko Monastery

4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
4x Tropical Island
3x Tundra
3x Underground Sea
1x Scrubland

Now, I do not run land recursion in my list, because I don't think it improves many important matchups, but that is another discussion entirely. It is, however, relevant to my decision not to run non-manland utility lands (Wasteland, Dustbowl, etc.). We can certainly debate this topic, but it isn't the point of this post.

What I am interested in is the configuration of colored mana sources, and I am doubtful that the inclusion of recursion elements should affect this aspect of the manabase. For example, I think I've seen people justify running fewer fetchlands because they have Crucible or Loam in the deck, and I don't think this makes sense.

So, can some of you weigh in on why you aren't running the full set of fetches? Isn't this a requirement in a four-color deck? How about the basic lands? I can see how an Island would be nice to have access to against Moon effects, although you kind of need Blue Blast in the deck to give the Island a purpose. Therefore, the value of a basic probably increases considerably if you have Cunning Wish, but, like I said, I've still lost more games to being unable to play Pernicious Deed than I have to Blood Moon. I have greater difficulty understanding the lists with more than one basic land. They just make the deck less consistent, and they are also much worse than duals against incremental land destruction (Stifle/Waste), which I find much more common than sweeping nonbasic hate.

If you follow the link at the top of the quote, you can read the ensuing responses to my post (you could also scroll back two pages). Thankfully, the general consensus seemed to be that you should have the full eight blue fetchlands, which I think is pretty obvious for a four-color deck.

[Tinefol]

Play maindeck Relics. They'll solve the Loam issues. I've moved my Mages back to board after testing Relic extensively. I run two maindeck Relics and am torn on my sideboard between running the other two Relics or two Extirpates. Generally I prefer the Relics, but in some control mirrors and rare situations the Extirpates have proven useful.

I see a problem of low blue count with maindeck Relics. Is 19 cards enough there? Or do you run more blue cards than that?

A card to note: Divert. Works wonders in discard/land destruction heavy environment. Its so much better than spell snare in certain match ups. Have anyone tested it? There's nothing better than making them sinkhole their land, or Hymning their own hand :)

Obfuscate Freely thanks for the reference. Looks like I've missed that discussion.

[Tacosnape]

I'm not ignoring this thread, I'm just trying to test before I run my mouth only to change my mind a day later.

For one, though, my Relic lists run a higher blue count than 19. 20-22 is what they're running (4 Brainstorm/Standstill/Force/Counter, then 4-6 of Snares and either Jaces or FoFs.)

The extent of what I'm starting to conclude from Relics is this:

1. Relic is extremely awesome.
2. Relic makes some of your other extremely awesome cards a little less extremely awesome.

So I'm currently hunting and testing for a balance between the two extremes of

1. No Relics MD, Fact or Fiction, Monestary, Loam,
2. Relics MD, Jace over Fact, Vault over Monestary, no Loam.

Relics hurt Monestary and Loam. Not to the point of automatic unplayability, but to the point of making them less amazing. Fact or Fiction thrives on Loam and Monestary, as it makes you able to ignore manlands in your pile choices, fill up the yard for Threshold, roll into the Loam, etc. If you cut both Monestary and Loam, I think Jace Beleren suddenly competes with Fact or Fiction again, especially since when you cut Loam you hurt your means to kill your opponent.

So with #1, you get to play more awesome cards, and have defense against land destruction. With #2, you get maindeck yard hate, a second alternate maindeck kill, and are far less color dependent.

So anyhow, at this exact moment, my MD Relic list is:

4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Mutavault

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Diabolic Edict
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Engineered Explosives

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
2 Jace Beleren
2 Relic of Progenitus

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare

SB:
4 Meddling Mage
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Engineered Plague
2 Krosan Grip
2 Relic of Progenitus

That said, I don't think it'll be long now before I start wondering how bad I need green without Loam or Monestary anymore. It isn't costing me a lot to actually run green, per se, and the alternatives to Deed in this style of build are few (A Vindicate/EE Combination is most likely). And once you cut green and deed, you start realizing you can play artifacts and enchantments, and you evolve further and further towards UWx builds, whereas I prefer to keep the board empty of permanents.

So anyway. Landstill is giving me headaches at the moment. Relic's the best thing that's happened to it in ages, but it's going to require some tinkering. I'll keep people posted though.

[Tinefol]

Now this isn't something I'd like 4c to head into. I'd better run straight UWb list, which does have less problems with graveyard strategies in the first place. I want to keep Monastery, Loam and Fact and still have some outs against graveyard based strategies. Now what the options are?
Relic - as you say, it hoses our amazing cards a little bit. And it indeed is, though 2 relic probably isn't big deal.
Straight Extirpate main? I fear that would be like running a few dead cards in some matches.
Wish into Extirpate? A bit too slow, though I'll test that.

[Tacosnape]

Now this isn't something I'd like 4c to head into. I'd better run straight UWb list, which does have less problems with graveyard strategies in the first place. I want to keep Monastery, Loam and Fact and still have some outs against graveyard based strategies. Now what the options are?
Relic - as you say, it hoses our amazing cards a little bit. And it indeed is, though 2 relic probably isn't big deal.
Straight Extirpate main? I fear that would be like running a few dead cards in some matches.
Wish into Extirpate? A bit too slow, though I'll test that.

If you don't want to break up Monestary/Loam/Fact, I think your best bet is to either run 1-2 Relics main and suck up the drawback or just run neither one main and have a sideboard heavy with yard hate. I'm hesitant to recommend one or the other at this juncture. I'm not a huge fan of toolboxing 4C Landstill with Cunning Wish as it steals valuable sideboard slots (Same reason I ended up not running Living Wish so far), and maindeck Extirpate beyond a singleton can be a serious liability more often than it's a serious help. At least Relic cantrips when it's dead.

[3duece]

Ive tested with relic a bit now, against aggro loam w/ black splash and white thresh. What I've found is that in times where relic is crucial, monastery and loam don't matter that much. If you NEED relic than you're not going to be dredging loam, even in the face of waste lock, because you want to hunt for relic to remove the opponent's wastes and loam altogether. And again, in a similar situation, activating and blocking with monastery shouldn't be a priority in the face of a grave-based strategy because getting relic instead swings the game drastically in your favor. That said, relic definitely weakens fact or fiction a bit, but not enough to make Jace the superior power draw, in my opinion. I think I'm sticking with one maindeck relic w/ one maindeck enlightened tutor and a second relic in the board for chicago. Now that Knight of the Reliquary is actually seeing play in white thresh and few loam strategies it's just another reason to have easy access to efficient graveyard hate.

[3duece]

I don't really have much to say but I've been playing landstill alot lately and I'm sick of seeing the merfolk thread at the top. I mean, merfolk? 'Cmon. :smile: Anyone made any recent advancements to the current list, namely better wincons? Also, where the hell did vorosh go?

[Tinefol]

Wut, merfolk? From my limited testing against that 'folk - its a pretty favorable matchup for us.

There are two new lists at deckcheck: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23263 with Tombstalkers and Mutavaults as buddies for Mishra's and questionable manabase.

and http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23228 - vorosh without goyfs and with questionable (again) manabase. (Goyfs are in the side, yo. - Bardo)

Are CB/Top really worth incorporating?

[Tacosnape]

I don't really have much to say but I've been playing landstill alot lately and I'm sick of seeing the merfolk thread at the top. I mean, merfolk? 'Cmon. :smile: Anyone made any recent advancements to the current list, namely better wincons? Also, where the hell did vorosh go?

First off, going "Merfolk? 'Cmon" will get you slaughtered at Chicago. Wasteland and Stifle are not things we like to see before we get our manabases stable, and Stifle wrecks our Deed/EE combinations also. Aether Vial isn't something we want to see ever. And Lord of Atlantis really isn't something we want to see. Merfolk also runs nothing dead against us and will more often than not be holding Standstill superiority. This is not a good matchup for us at all.

"Fish," the archetype, was originally popularized because in vintage, a cheap deck full of Merfolk, disruption, counters, and Standstill for draw, that could beat the premier control deck of the format. Now Fish has come full circle, and it literally even contains Merfolk again. Those who forget their history are doomed to repeat it.

Snare shines here (Snare counters all of their draw), as does E-Plague postboard (Run four. It's worth it. It even shrinks their Mutavaults.) That said, you won't get Standstill superiority unless you're running Jace Beleren and get one and a Standstill down on a clear board. So draw can be tricky.

As for better wincons, that seems to be the sticking point right now. The current best advice I can offer is finding ways to sneak them in the slots that provide other functions (Removal, Draw, or Counter.) Shriekmaw's both removal and a kill. Jace is both draw and a kill. etc.

[Tinefol]

What've I've found from my limited testing against merfolk - they fear deed badly, they lose gas quickly, they absolutely hate double plague. Yeah, sometimes the folk goes insane with multiple wasteland/stifle/still, but not very often. I've boarded out Standstill of course, Lord of Atlantis is STP target #1 for obvious reason, and other than that, games were OK for Landstill. Though B2B might make things worse.

[3duece]

I was mostly joking, just sick of seeing that deck at the top of the page like everyone all of a sudden 'discovered' merfolk. I played that shit back in 2001 extended, but whatever. Yeah, it can be a tough match, but it's completely manageable, especially for 4c. We have the worst manabase but we also have creature removal coming out of our ass. It's really not that bad.

[Tinefol]

So far this is the decklist I'm going to play with in the near future:

3 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Nantuko Monastery

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
2 Fact or Fiction
1 Jace Beleren

4 Pernicious Deed
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Crime//Punishment

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Shriekmaw

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare

1 Life from the Loam

So there are 10 win conditions (Loam often plays as a win condition). I'm not convinced yet to run Relics maindeck, as graveyard is not that prominent in my meta, but that may change.

[Tinefol]

Won Magic League Trial with the above list: http://www.magic-league.com/deck/49552/legacy_t15.html
61 participants, 6 rounds
Here's the comprehensive report. Its so much easier to make reports when you have logs :)

Round 1 - Airik with Aluren
Game 1. He wins the roll and mulls. Turn 2 Wall of Blossoms from him, next turn he tries to Intution eot which I counter (I had no idea what I'm playing against and feared Intuition for Loam/Wasteland). A turn later he hardcasts Aluren, but apparently has no business spells in hand to get the combo going. I attempt to cast Perdeed the Aluren which meets FoW of his.
Two turns later I cast Punishment for 4, and it destroys the enchatment, though he managed to stick the Eternal Witness for Intuition under it. He casts Intuition for 3 goyfs, which looks rather a weak move from him. He casts goyf, I on my turn cast Explosives. I Counterspell the Man'o'war and then blow explosives.
He has only Witness left, so I, having Factory and Monastery safely drop Standstill. I swing for 2 turns, then he blocks Monastery with with Witness and casts Brainstorm. +3 cards for me. Next turn he tries to cabal therapy me, and I reveal 2xSword and Spell Snare. He scoops.

Game 2. + 4 Meddling Mages -Loam -Snares
Turn one Eladamii Vineyard from him, which I don't have a FoW for, and it looks like a problem for me. I can't spend green mana. I take the mana burn, countering Intuition inbetween and land a Mage named on Aluren. For a few turns I take manaburn damage, while not able to attack due to Wall of Blossoms and he tricks it with Man'o'war. I'm forced to FoW Tarmogoyf, because I'm low on life and then finally find a use for that mana - cast Crime on that Goyf. Wall of Blossoms is no longer a problem, he gets land flooded, gets mana burned from Vineyard and dies quickly to Meddling Mage + Tarmogoyf beats.

Thanks you Crime//Punishment, you've really shined in these games. By both parts :)

Round 2 - Argus94Czech with Painter Servant
He wins the roll, and starts with turn 2 Tarmogoyf which I Snare. Turn 3 Servant, which I StP and he doesn't have blasts, and isn't able to find a FoW from Brainstorm. I prominently drop Standstill. He plays Trinket Mage, which I let resolve after drawing 3 and he goes for Sensei's Top. He gets a few Trinket Mage beats, casts a Crypt (I have a Thresholded Monastery) and then I land a Perdeed. Trying to break it EOT I meet stifle, which I Counterspell. I then drop another Standstill.
He breaks it with Top. I get a few Mishra's Beats and then he stops it with Fire//Ice, which I Snare. Jace gets in, getting me a few cards. He casts trinket, getting Grindstone, then casts Goyf. On my turn I Sword the mage, and then Edict Goyf. I've assembled Threshold again and he just scoops to Factory + Monastery.

Game 2. I think I've added 2 Meddling Mages and single Extirpate.
He starts with a Grindstone, without servant, so I cast Standstill on my 2nd turn. He breaks it with Servant, which I try to Fow, but meet Pyroblast. Well, so what. I simly Edict the Servant on next turn. A turn later I get careless and let a Tarmogoyf resolve, while having a Snare. I thought of saving it for Servant and just blocking the goyf with my Monastery + Factories. However he succesfully mills 4 cards off me, making the goyf grow from 3/4 to 6/7 (bah!).
He gets a beat through, I cast Jace to try and get some removal and next turn I'm facing a 6/7 goyf which I'm forced to chump block with factory, because I'm on 7 life. Jace finally nets me a StP for goyf, and like 3 lands. He gets trinket Mage, getting Pithing needle on Monastery. I block with Factory, and he Fire//Ices it. I try to Snare, but there's Blast. Another Trinket Mage gets me down to 3, and then he finally casts Servant which I don't have an answer for.

Game 3. Its almost time (mainly due to his slow play in game 1), and I get a round win for winning game1.

Round 3 - big-james with Goblins.
Game 1. After connection problems, he mulls to 4, I'm to 6, and he start by wasting my land, then trying to cast lackey and vial which I counter. He's stuck on one land for a while, but I just don't get ANY win-conditions. I counter (2 Ringleaders, 2 Siege Gangs) and remove a bunch of goblins after he finally gets lands, and like on 32nd card of my own deck I finally get Mishra's Factory. Unfortunately he already has two ports and a bit later Wasteland. So how I'm to win it? I topdeck Crime//Punishment and use it for Siege-Gang, and then cast Shriekmaw, and swing for the win with goblin tokens :)
Game 2. +Plagues +BEB
I FoW turn one vial, laying fetches to play around port and wasteland, sTp his warchief, and then drop a Plague. He gets ringleader through, which gets him lackey/warchief/pileriver) but I counter/remove all that. I topdecked like 3 counterspells, while I desperately needed some card draw for second Plague, but I didn't get any and then the time was called.

Round 4 - Shooter with Tezzeret Stax.
Game 1. I win the roll and the game goes smoothly, I make 2 two-for-one Perdeed exchanges, 1 two-for-one Explosives exchange and he's right out of gas.
Game 2. + Meddling Mage. This time he gets a fast start with mana denial artifacts (Thorn Amethyst), wasteland, Tangle Wire, and Smokestack. I'm quickly locked out.
Game 3. I extirpate wasteland turn2. Guess he didn't expect Meddling Mage, because I managed to drop it to stop Smokestack from appearing and he just doesn't have any bounce or removal. He dropped a bunch of mana denial artifacts, Ensnaring bridge, so I couldn't attack and needle on Perdeed. Bah. However I managed to cast Jace Berelen, which gained a lot of counters. Somewhere inbetween I countered Tezzeret under Defense grid, Sphere of Resistance and Thorn Amethyst.
Then finally Jace gave me Punishment, I've removed needle, then casted Perdeed, blown all his permanents, recasted Mage on Smokestack and milled him with Jace. He gave up having 6 cards in library before I could finish him off with Jace :)

Jace the MVP!

Round 5. Craith - GBW Survival.
Game 1. I didn't even realise it was a Survival there!. He started with some discard Sensei's top and goyf, which I StPed, got 2 Standstills and just overwhelmed him with card advantage. I just thought its some kind of GBW Zoo or Rock.

Game 2. + 2 Extirpate. Game went same way, I got two Standstills, easily killed/countered his goyfs and Eternal Witnesses, but then I got careless with massive card advantage and ton of removal, and been caught with pants off by Tsunami. Omg. Then he finally dropped survival and quickly finished me off. Shouldn't have wasted counterspells on Sensei's Top.

Game 3. Things go back and forth, I manage to Deed away early survival, FoW the Tsunami and then we were just casting/removing creatures for a while. The time was called and I won by life.

Round 6 - Ehri with Faerie Stompy
Game 1. I win the roll and simply lay a land. He stars with Tomb/Chalice for one. I brainstorm, see another brainstorm and StP, no mass removal, and decide to FoW it. He attempts to Pestermite me on my 3rd turn, but I StP it. I then counterspell Trinket Mage, and cast Jace Beleren. A few turns later he casts Sea Drake and SOFI. Great. I cast Punishment for 3 earning "rofl" from him. Jace gives me a bunch of cards and I just quickly beat through with factories and monastery, as he heavily used Ancient Tomb.

Game 2. No s/b. He needles a factory turn 1, and lays SOFI turn 2. I use that to my advantage casting standstill. He evokes a mulldrifter earning me 3 and him 2 cards. A turn later he casts Sea Drake, which I Edict at EOT. Next turn his Efreet meets Counterspell, I get a few beats with Monastery, and then he tries to casts B2B. I Counterspell it, then drop second Monastery and Perdeed for safety. He's on 8 life and just scoops it up.


Conclusions: I've underestimated Jace. Its almost always kickass - getting me a bunch of cards! Though probably less so in fast aggro environment or decks with burn, but still is. I absolutely liked having Crime//Punishment back. Its huge! So these additional win conditions (Jace, Crime, Shriekmaw) proved themself very useful for the deck. I wish we also had counterspell/wincon for the heck of it as we have mana/wincon, pointed removal/wincon, mass removal/wincon and card draw/wincon :)

[Pelikanudo]

About the inclusion of Coflux:
I think Path to exile substitutes to Slaughter pact in cunning -Landstill,
has anybody test this card?
HAs anybody agree with me?
does anybody think this card only belongs to the side or it will be played as well in main , in my opinion it only substitutes the pact.

[DuKeLiO]

I have included 3 Path to Exile maindeck. I was happy this weekend with 7 Swords to deal with big creatures. Threshold simply can win against this, and the same is true against Team America, and any Phyrexian/Stifle deck.

However with this 7 Swords maindeck, I opted for a Diabolic Edict in sb to be able to deal with Progenitus or anyone creature with Protection from White or Shroud.
If you do not includo some Paths, sure, Path is better than Slaughter pact.

[Tacosnape]

@Tinefol: I absolutely love the hell out of that list. I'm curious as to why you made Seas go to 4 instead of Tundras, but other than that, I approve. I'm a huge fan of Crime//Punishment for what it can do in the midgame.

[Tinefol]

Mainly because the deck runs more 'B' in its colors, than 'W'. Its often the color you need the most turn 3-4, where as Tundra is generally first target for a first turn fetchland anyway (due to STP).

[Tacosnape]

Mainly because the deck runs more 'B' in its colors, than 'W'. Its often the color you need the most turn 3-4, where as Tundra is generally first target for a first turn fetchland anyway (due to STP).

That brings up an interesting discussion. I run more Tundras because I need them quicker and want the higher chance of staving off a fast attack before I stabilize. So that rolls into a whole discussion of whether to run the excess colored lands on the color you need most or the color you need the quickest.

As for Counterspell/Wincon, This sort of exists. You can run Mystic Snake or Spellstutter Sprite, but you probably shouldn't. Maindeck Mage sort of fulfills this role, though. That said, I doubt you need it.

I used to favor a 12/12/12 configuration of Draw, Denial, Removal to go with the 24 lands, but the more I play, the more I start to favor going 11 denial, 12 draw, and 13 removal. Which is basically what you're running.

[jrp]

@Tinefol: I absolutely love the hell out of that list.
AGREED. An incredible list.

Just a question about your sideboard. Is it this?
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Engineered Plague
4 Meddling Mage
3 Extirpate

Are the Extirpates (and maybe Mages) enough grave hate against things like Ichorid/Aggro Loam? I guess against Ichorid you bring in Plagues, Mages, and Extirpates...should be enough to at least even the matchup up.

Congrats again on your finish and the list.

[Atog]

AGREED. An incredible list.

Just a question about your sideboard. Is it this?
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Engineered Plague
4 Meddling Mage
3 Extirpate






4 Engineered Plague
1 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Meddling Mage
3 Extirpate
3 Relic of Progenitus



Looking that manabase, that just scream "Play Blood Moon, Magus of the Moon, Back to Basics or Price of Progress". Just trying to figure, is there no non-basic land hate in your metas, or do you simply draw hand what can simply deny those cards i listed above? I play now dreadstill, and one things i like most of that deck is manabase. 6 or 4 basics is more than enought with that deck but this deck plays 4-color so that manabase looks quite fragile in my eyes. Do i just imagine?

[Tacosnape]

AGREED. An incredible list.

Just a question about your sideboard. Is it this?
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Engineered Plague
4 Meddling Mage
3 Extirpate

Are the Extirpates (and maybe Mages) enough grave hate against things like Ichorid/Aggro Loam? I guess against Ichorid you bring in Plagues, Mages, and Extirpates...should be enough to at least even the matchup up.

Congrats again on your finish and the list.

I can speak from plenty of experience on this one. Plague and Extirpate are indeed enough to make each individual game postboard pretty favored against Ichorid. (That said, you probably got owned game one, so there you go.)

Against Ichorid, Standstill's garbage, and Snare's no better. Cull them for Plague/Extirpate, a 7 for 7 trade. Mage is worth bringing in as well (Shut. Off. Therapy,) so cut your Loam and a mishmash of other cards (I cut 1 Monestary and 2 Counterspells.)

Extirpate Bridge at all costs. Plague Horrors, then Illusions. Deed and EE can sweep away obnoxious zombie tokens.

[Tinefol]

The sideboard isn't made of concrete, so it may shift. On magic-league meta is hard to predict, though I was right assuming there wouldn't be much sligh or burn decks. That lone blast probably should have been something else. I didn't encounter any graveyard based decks either, but graveyard hate is worth running just in case. In my local meta, burn/sligh have also been underpresented (like 2-3 decks at most) so I often omit blasts when considering sideboard. If there is alot of burn I'd opt for COP:Red :)

Plague, Extirpate and Mage are usually enough. Adding to Tacosnape notes, I'd point out, that I've mainly used Mage to shut off combo-win (Dread Return). That buys you some time to dig for plague/deed/ee to deal with token/ichorid plan. Bridge also can be shut off by Edicting your own animated Factory. Depending on your meta, even Leyline of the Void can be justified - they have a hard time dealing with it :)
Usually Loam turns into subpar creature deck if you shut loam engine off. If you get Extirpate and/or Mage, you are probably in a good shape.

As for non-basic hate - there's one Dragon Stompy deck on my meta, and so far I'm like 5-2 against it. They run out of gas quickly once you defend from initial assault, early Magus can be dealt with stp or edict, blood moon should be countered, and after casting perdeed you are probably safe enough against these. That said, sometimes DStompy steals a win by turn 1-2 Blood Moon effects which you can't counter, but hey, that's Magic.
Back to Basics is far trickier than Moon, because usually it can be protected. So far, I've played against it about 5 or 6 times, and lost 2 or 3 games. I usually side in Meddling Mages against it. If it starts to show in big numbers, I'd probably start S/Bing Krosan Grip. We do have Perdeed and Explosives - so these are worth casting preemptively.
Price - I've lost a game to that card, but now as I have snares, its easier to deal with.
Just try to always save a counter for that kind of hate. Same way you work against Armageddon or Boil/Tsunami. I mean, we do not have much options there, not like we can afford to actually run basics.

[3duece]

Has anyone noticed how both merfolk and dreadstill, two of the most popular decks around now, both take more advantage of standstill than we do? Is this not a problem? Dreadstill plays the same amount of factories as us, but 3 wastelands to take care of ours. Merfolk is a nightmare on this subject, with mutavault, wasteland and aether vial. 3c landstill does much more with it than us as well with factory, either tolaria west/dust bowl or wasteland, as well as decree of justice and eternal dragon. Don't we need to step it up? It seems like half the time its just not safe to drop standstill. Not that I have many bright ideas myself, but I'm wondering if anyone else has a solution to this. I'm trying to figure if maybe there's a way to use intuition in place of fact or fiction and dedicate a small portion of the deck to it. We already play loam so we could replace monasteries with 1 Dust Bowl, and maybe find 1 or 2 slots for reclaim or regrowth effects to allow a good pile selection? Maybe we could work a single academy ruins back in for this strategy as well. I'm basically just trying to find other card advantage routes that can set us up for a good standstill board position. Maybe something along these lines?
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Dust Bowl
1 Academy Ruins

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Intuition
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Eternal Witness
1 Life From the Loam

I figure one witness is enough because she's rarely needed, you'll either be searching for a loam pile or a 3-of pile, plus there's no sac outlet for her anyway. But I do think she's better than reclaim or regrowth because she dodges counterbalance, sometimes dodges deed, is a blocker and can occasionally beat for two. The single shackles is in there because it produces even more card advantage, laughs at aggro and is a possible extra win con. I need to test this build but I think it looks promising. It's certainly not hurting for win conditions and I think that, while its a little more open to graveyard hate, it certainly doesn't die to it.

[jrp]

Not saying it's a good idea, but back around GP Columbus (Flash Hulk) most 4-c lists had 3 Wastelands in the main. We were color screwed a lot more often, but it would help to get more mileage out of Standstill.

[Tacosnape]

If you're going to run the Intuition/Loam engine, it really is worth it to run the singleton blue cycling land, as well as a single Chainer's Edict. Both are solid additions to your pile if you have nothing better to grab. I personally love the UGB-shell Intuition builds, and I keep one under wraps for surprise use from time to time. That said, Intuition/Loam engines scare me right now with Relic of Progenitus being as prominent as it is currently.

In Standstill mirrors, yes, 4C sucks. That's always been one of its drawbacks. There was a time where 4C beat everything -but- mirrors. That's less true now with more tricksy matchups out there, but there still isn't much that's heavily favored against a good 4C list other than decks that use Standstill better.

Your best bet in these cases is to know your opponent's decks well enough to take advantage of your sideboard. Plague goes a long way in the Merfolk matchup, and Mage/Extirpate both help against Dreadstill/other Landstills.

[memnarch]

// Lands
4 [R] Tundra
4 [R] Underground Sea
4 [R] Tropical Island
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
2 [JU] Nantuko Monastery

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
4 [OD] Standstill
3 [IN] Fact or Fiction
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [7E] Counterspell
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
4 [MM] Brainstorm
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [DIS] Spell Snare

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [4E] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate



As a merfolk player. I played against a few landstill decks on MWS and I have too say this version gave me the most trouble. There are enough sweepers in there to give it problems if you fail to draw enough stifles or any at all.

[3duece]

Okay, so I got to play the version I posted on the last page a bit and I like it alot, but I came to a conclusion that makes me sad- 4x stp being the only white cards between the main and board does not justify the white. Oh, also with 8 fetches and 4 intuition I want tombstalker more than tarmogoyf. So, I'm working on a 3c list, taking tacosnape's suggestions under consideration. This is a rough list so any help is much appreciated:
2 flooded strand
4 polluted delta
4 underground sea
3 tropical island
2 island
1 swamp
1 lonely sandbar
4 mishras factory
1 dust bowl
1 academy ruins

3 pernicious deed
2 engineered explosives
1 chainer's edict
3 diabolic edict
1 vedalken shackles
1 life from the loam
1 eternal witness
3 tombstalker

4 standstill
4 brainstorm
4 intuition
4 counterspell
4 force of will
2 spell snare

[Atog]

I'm pondering between landstill and ITF, that what make each other better? ITF has Tarmogoyfs, so they have faster clock vs. Mishras factory and Elspeth, Knight-Errant. They both have quite same amout of removal. Landstill have better draw-engine (jace and standstills). So tell me what makes the difference / stronger deck :)

[Arsenal]

In the UGB builds, what if you don't own/can't acquire EE. I have every other card in order to build UGB Landstill, but almost every list I see is running 2 EE (in addition to 4 Deed). Would Powder Keg be an acceptable substitute until I can get 2 EE?

[3duece]

Powder keg is way too slow, it just gives the opponent more time to find krosan grip or their own ee. You can find ee for six bucks if you look hard enough.

[3duece]

I'm pondering between landstill and ITF, that what make each other better? ITF has Tarmogoyfs, so they have faster clock vs. Mishras factory and Elspeth, Knight-Errant. They both have quite same amout of removal. Landstill have better draw-engine (jace and standstills). So tell me what makes the difference / stronger deck :)

ITF has the worse manabase, even without mishra's factory, they're playing 3-4 basics in a 4 color deck. Landstill can support tarmogoyf too if you want it, but landstill is much less grave-dependent that ITF, some even run maindeck relic of progenitus. ITFs card draw is garbage (loam, etched oracle) and it's just a slow p.o.s. that is difficult to play and is still too weak in too many areas. It's main pro is that it supports counterbalance better than any thresh list around. But landstill plays around cb altogether. And since this is a counterbalance format, landstill ftw.

[Arsenal]

Powder keg is way too slow, it just gives the opponent more time to find krosan grip or their own ee. You can find ee for six bucks if you look hard enough.

Checking ebay, cardshark, trollandtoad, mtgfanatic, mtgmintcard, starcitygames, is turning up nothing near the $6 range. Care to point me in the right direction?

[3duece]

Damn, even magictraders.com has an average of $13.01, those fuckers went up. I guess cause most extended decks play them. Sorry man, my bad. It still kicks the crap out of powder keg. I'd play good old nevinyrral's disk over keg.

[Arsenal]

Dropping $15 per EE is a stiff price to pay. Until I can save up, I'll just run Disk I guess. Thanks for the suggestion.

[Atog]

ITF has the worse manabase, even without mishra's factory, they're playing 3-4 basics in a 4 color deck. Landstill can support tarmogoyf too if you want it, but landstill is much less grave-dependent that ITF, some even run maindeck relic of progenitus. ITFs card draw is garbage (loam, etched oracle) and it's just a slow p.o.s. that is difficult to play and is still too weak in too many areas. It's main pro is that it supports counterbalance better than any thresh list around. But landstill plays around cb altogether. And since this is a counterbalance format, landstill ftw.

Thanks! You mentioned that ITF is hard to play, i think so too. What landstill build is most powerfull in meta where thresh, evagreen and mbs are most played decks? There is a couple Enchantress and maybe angelstax running around. I guess ugb? Deed owns them quite well?

[3duece]

I would actually say UWb with wasteland, vindicate and elspeth would be very strong in that meta. And the thing about ITF is, it's hard to play but very unrewarding. You make these complicated decisions, then your opponent grips your top and pops relic and your game is over.

[Atog]

I would actually say UWb with wasteland, vindicate and elspeth would be very strong in that meta. And the thing about ITF is, it's hard to play but very unrewarding. You make these complicated decisions, then your opponent grips your top and pops relic and your game is over.

Yup. I think i have start looking those elspeths and vindicates and start practising with that to next tourney :)

[Misplayer]

I would actually say UWb with wasteland, vindicate and elspeth would be very strong in that meta. And the thing about ITF is, it's hard to play but very unrewarding. You make these complicated decisions, then your opponent grips your top and pops relic and your game is over.

I think you're overestimating the graveyard dependence for ITF. You're most recent build of Inuition-still has almost the same dependencies - 1x Loam, 1x Ruins - ITF plays Stronghold for Witness silliness and Relic shrinks Goyf but also makes it tough for you to cast Tombstalker. You mentioned that Landstill can play around CB but ITF runs 9+ 3cc cards, and your list doesn't play Wrath, FoF or Decree which are Landstill's major work-arounds for CB (aside from EE). You cut a color without improving the stability of the manabase, and you're basically running ITF with Standstill/Factory instead of Counter/Top and without Swords, one of the best removal spells ever printed. You already said a few posts ago how weak Standstill is with only 4x Factories to work under it, and Counter/Top is game winning in many many matches, especially when you can reliably flip for 3. I think this post sounds much more derogatory than I intended it to, so please don't get offended, I just take exception to ITF being called a "p.o.s.". I agree that it is weak in drawing cards, so I cut Counterspell for Dark Confidant, but for more on that, see the It's the Fear thread.

[3duece]

I'm not talking about landstill vs. itf in a match, I mean each one vs. the metagame. Most cb decks concentrate in the 1 and 2 slots, making landstill very strong even without wrath and fof. Sure, maybe I underestimate itf somewhat, but it does tie a few too many metagame weaknesses into one deck (4 colors, cb/top reliance, grave reliance, few winconditions, bad card draw).

[3duece]

I was hoping to get some feedback on the intuition build I've been working on. Yes, it is more open to grave-hate, but what I love about intuition is how open-ended it is and I feel it gives the deck alot of consistency whether you're putting together a recursion pile or not. Current issues I'm having are:
1. Manabase: I feel the fetches and duals are correct, and I'm quite happy with the utility land selection. Dust bowl is great here because it doesn't need loam the way wasteland does, ruins is necessary for alot of the best recursion piles, and sandbar is a great draw engine and taps for blue. My issue is basics, mainly that I want a basic forest, but I won't be able to fetch it. Any thoughts on this? Should I just say fuck it?

2. Win conditions: I currently have recurring factories, 3 tombstalkers and ruins for decking. Is this enough? I'm not sure where I'd fit tarmogoyf if I wanted it. Should I consider psychatog since this basically a tog/landstill hybrid?

Any help for opinions would be appreciated, thanks!

4 polluted delta
2 flooded strand
4 underground sea
3 tropical island
2 island
1 swamp
4 mishra's factory
1 dust bowl
1 academy ruins
1 lonely sandbar

4 standstill
4 brainstorm
4 intuition
4 counterspell
4 force of will

4 pernicious deed
2 engineered explosives
1 vedalken shackles
1 life from the loam
3 diabolic edict
1 chainer's edict
1 executioner's capsule
1 eternal witness
3 tombstalker

[Tinefol]

1. This is a metagame choice. In my meta, I wouldn't play Intuition Still, because Dust Bowl and Ruins would be useless colorless mana lands most of the time. And if you're not running them, what's the point of running Intuition at all? I feel that it is about too many colorless/basics lands to not run into mana consistency problems, which affect greatly your match ups against fast aggro and aggro-control decks.

2. You may fit a Shriekmaw, possibly a goyf, or perhaps even a terravore there. May be Jace Beleren? I think that generally 9-10 win conditions is a right number for the deck, you have like 8-9.

On a side note, I've been tinkering around with UWx builds and I was quite a bit disappointed.

It seems so slow, it lacks removal greatly (4 stp is not enough), Wrath just blows with its enormous 2ww casting cost (I don't seem to reliably hit 4 mana with two white when needed because of wastelands and other mana disruption). Moat, Humility and Elspeth suffer from the very same problem. The deck also can't deal with permanents, Crucible/wasteland/dustbowl are so slow, that they almost never matter and win conditions are even more, hellishly slow, Eternal dragon is a whopping 7 or 5+7 mana investment, Decree is only good at a very late game and Elspeth is just a win more. I've tried CB/TOP - I could never assemble it fast enough against aggro (if you go assembling cb/top - they just beat down you with 1/2cc drops). I've tried Cunning Wish - it was extremly slow - next to unplayable. Nevinyrral disk is out of the question for the very same reason. Enlightened tutor is a freaking card disadvantage. You have to tap out like every turn, making your Counterspells useless and the rant goes on...

Is it just me or UWx is only good against slow, controllish metagame? I so missed the awesomeness of Pernicious Deed, speed of Monastery and reliable removal. Looks like I'm going to stick to 4c for a while.

[3duece]

1. This is a metagame choice. In my meta, I wouldn't play Intuition Still, because Dust Bowl and Ruins would be useless colorless mana lands most of the time. And if you're not running them, what's the point of running Intuition at all? I feel that it is about too many colorless/basics lands to not run into mana consistency problems, which affect greatly your match ups against fast aggro and aggro-control decks.

2. You may fit a Shriekmaw, possibly a goyf, or perhaps even a terravore there. May be Jace Beleren? I think that generally 9-10 win conditions is a right number for the deck, you have like 8-9.

On a side note, I've been tinkering around with UWx builds and I was quite a bit disappointed.

It seems so slow, it lacks removal greatly (4 stp is not enough), Wrath just blows with its enormous 2ww casting cost (I don't seem to reliably hit 4 mana with two white when needed because of wastelands and other LD). Moat, Humility and Elspeth suffer from the very same problem. The deck also can't deal with permanents, Crucible/wasteland is so slow, that it almost never matters and win conditions are hellishly slow, Eternal dragon is a whopping 5 or 7+5 mana investment, Decree is only good at a very late game and Elspeth is a win more. I've tried CB/TOP - I could never assemble it fast enough against aggro (if you go assembling cb/top - they just beat down you with 1/2cc drops). I've tried Cunning Wish - it was extremly slow - next to unplayable. Nevinyrral disk is out of the question for the very same reason. Enlightened tutor is a freaking card disadvantage, the rant goes on...

Is it just me or UWx is only good against slow, controllish metagame? I so missed the awesomeness of Pernicious Deed, speed of Monastery and reliable removal. Looks like I'm going to stick to 4c for a while.

As far as metagames go, mine is very heavy on non-basics, so dust bowl is a definite. On the same token, merfolk with maindeck relic is getting big which definitely hurts the graveyard plan, but the nice thing about this deck is you can always just play the traditional landstill game of counter some shit, blow up the board and slow roll, using intuition as an instant demonic tutor instead.

I would be running shriekmaw if I played a volrath's stronghold, but the deck can't take another colorless source, especially one that demands black every turn. If I had a sac outlet for eternal witness I would consider it, but as it stands it's just not worth it. The win condition issue is still throwing me. Maybe polymorph ftw? (huge, huge joke)

I too was iffy on the manabase but after playing a little I realize that with 4 each of brainstorm, standstill and intuition along with loam, hitting double blue with black and green isn't as big of a deal as I thought. I still wish I could drop deed under blood moon, but basic forest just isn't going to work.

As far as your view of traditional landstill, it has it's place in most metas, but I think alot of people make poor decisions for it as far as deck construction, kind of a throwback to 'the danger of cool things.' In my opinion those decks are the closest things left to the classic weissman control style, and they need to play as such. The vindicate and wasteland plan seems to suit the fancy of some, but I think it just dilutes the deck. But yes, those decks are very powerful but slow as hell, that's why you seem them in the top 8s of many more european tournaments than american.

[AnduYn]

Has anyone of you guys tested Elspeth, she seems so do really well in UWb Landstill.

I know that she is really hard to cast, but I have been playing 4c Landstill with 2 Humilitys main (like many others here in Germany), and the gamebreaking impact of the card was really worth it's mana cost.

We are already running Jace as a Planeswalker, and he preformed really well. And Elspeth protectes herself, which forces your opponent to overextend, if he wants to deal with her - and he HAS to.

Any thoughts, or testing results? I started testing a few days ago, but will keep her in the deck, just to see weather she is worth the :2:WW.

[Tinefol]

AnduYn, no, just no. I don't know what kind of metagame you're playing in, but assembling 2WW in a deck which wants to play Perdeed (GB) in environment of wasteland, stifle and other mana disruption is extremely hard. If you get that kind of mana, chances are that you're already winning. Elspeth is so much of a win more there. I wouldn't overload the deck with 4cc permanent spells, I think Fact or Fiction is enough in that slot.

Not to mention, I didn't like her much in UWb either :/

[Tinefol]

Are we dead already? Have anybody played the deck in the GP?

I've played the deck in local 27people tournament, and finished 2-1-2 missing top8 in a stupid draw due to slow play.

My current concern is Survival decks. The two toughest kinds - the one with discard (thoughtseize, duress, therapy), and progenitus survival.

Discard hits us badly, (especially duress/therapyx2 combo) and if they stick a survival after it, we are almost always doomed.
The second deck is very annoying, because they just run two many must-counter things, like Natural Order (yeah, we have out in Diabolic Edict, but it isn't always applicable), Survival, and Tsunami (or Boil) postboard. The latter has -oops, I win- written all over it. What sideboarding options can we apply there? How do we sideboard there generally? (Mage in or out? Relic? Extirpate?)

Another concern is burn match up, which I haven't faced yet, but fear alot. The problem is that we don't have 30 card sideboards, and cards like Meddling Mage, Plague, Relic, Blasts, Extirpate, Grip just don't fit in sideboard. Not even mentioning COP:Red. I'm puzzled.

[dakkon]

There were a lot of Landstill that made Day 2 and I saw a few 4c lists so don't count the deck dead. It is unfortunate that none of us top 8'd though :frown:

[thefreakaccident]

4c landstill is kind of older news, as it is still very solid, but it doesn't do anything special that other decks can't do themselves.


I think the approach that the NLU deck took in the GP is probably the best way to run a 4c control deck in the current metagame.

[3duece]

Yeah, the winning NLU list looks awesome, but it's really just a midrange deck, almost extended goodstuff with real duals. I think landstill has things to offer that the gp deck cannot. For instance, we play hard counters, they run counterbalance which is completely situational and daze which is decent but not great in that deck because they run no mana denial like stifle and wasteland. Also, dark confidant is amazing, but it's very easily removable. Standstill is not easily taken care of when played correctly. Furthermore, we play big badass pernicous deed which still owns alot of the environment. I'm just saying that 4c still has a good shot at the metagame. And here's my current, weird list.

4 flooded strand
4 polluted delta
4 underground sea
3 tropical island
2 tundra
4 mishra's factory
1 academy ruins
1 dust bowl
1 volrath's stronghold

4 standstill
4 brainstorm
3 intuition
4 counterspell
4 force of will
2 spell snare

4 swords to plowshares
3 diabolic edict
3 pernicious deed
1 engineered explosives
1 life from the loam
1 eternal witness
2 tombstalker

4 tormod's crypt
4 chalice of the void
4 BEB
3 krosan grip

I like intuition, and I don't like ITF so this works for me.

[Misplayer]

You realize you're playing ITF with standstill instead of CB/Top right? I don't understand why you think ITF or CB/Top are inferior to what you're proposing...

[3duece]

I am aware the deck lists are similar, yes. I just don't like games revolving around counterbalance/top. Is anyone else not complete bored by that?

[Viscosity]

Another concern is burn match up, which I haven't faced yet, but fear alot. Meddling Mage, Plague, Relic, Blasts, Extirpate, Grip just don't fit in sideboard. Not even mentioning COP:Red. I'm puzzled.

Ive been running what I call a "toolkit" sideboard for the last 3 events. It changes slightly, week to week, depending on the meta. But I absolutely love the approach.

2x Enlightened Tutor
2x Engineered Plague
2x Krosan Grip
1x COP Red
1x Ghostly Prison
1x Humility
1x Pithing Needle
1x Counterbalance
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Tormod's crypt
1x Energy Flux
1x mana maze

Some other cards that rotate in and out depending on meta:
COP Black
COP Green

It results in a lot of cards coming in. For example,

for goblins I side in 10 cards... 1x needle, 1x humility, 2x Plague, 1x COP red, 2x Grip, 1 ghostly prison, 2x Tutor

For Burn: 1x Cop Red, 2x Tutor, 1x Counterbalance,

For Ichorid: 1x humility, 2x plague, 1x ghostly prison, 2x tutor, 1x crypt, 1x relic, (COP black)

For Survival: 1x Needle, 2x tutor, 1x Humility, 1x crypt, 1x relic, 2x grip, (COP green)

For aggro Loam: 1x relic, 1x crypt, 1x counterbalance, 2x tutor, 1x cop red, 1x humility

These decks can be hard match-ups but they have a hard time dealing with these bomb enchantments.

[3duece]

Thats an interesting sideboard, I'm glad it's working out for you. Do you ever find the enlightened tutor strategy too slow? Especially against burn and combo? I like four chalice of the void against both of those matches, but if you're putting up results with that then I certainly can't argue.

Question: What countermagic suite do you folks prefer now? I think with the lack of counterbalance we need at least 10 pieces, but what's your configuration? I'm currently running 4 counterspell, 4 force of will, 3 spell snare, and I honestly would like to work the 4th spell snare in. What are you guys running and why?

Also, a stranger question, do you guys think landstill's popularity will grow if top gets banned this time around? Combo would become more popular (not good for us) but so would weenie strategies and black disruption/beatdown. Will landstill fail or thrive in a meta like this?

[Tinefol]

So I have won (well, top2 with split) another 24+ people weekly tournament, not changing much the maindeck. I've messed up the sideboard, not using much of it throughout the tournament. I haven't seen a single wasteland a whole day :) A report probably would be following a bit later.
Matches into top8: mono white control (loss), UG Progenitus Survival (win), GW Berserk Stompy (win), UGR/cb Threshold (win), ID
Top8: UGR Threshold, Enchantress, split.

3duece - I run the same suite and so far it works fine. I wouldn't change anything, 3 snare is enough, unless all you face is 2cc.

No and no. Basically because of the three points:
* We are not affected by CB/Top, in fact it is a very good match up for us
* People are not playing much Landstill and especially 4c Landstill mainly because they don't like playing complex control decks. That is especially true for Moscow's legacy community. Despite topping 5 out of 6 last tournaments here and winning two, I have seen zero interest in the deck from the players. I'm the only one playing the deck in our community at all. And man, topping Landstill perfomance is hard. It took me 5 or 6 tournaments (plus online testing) after returning to magic to re-learn how to play it, to work out my own style and stop making stupid errors. And then I started rocking with it :) That said, I still make errors (and probably a lot of them), though they are less obvious.
* Top is not getting banned. And there's a valid reason for this with which I wholeheartedly agree: it (together with CB) limits the shift of legacy to 0-2cc zone. There are not many cards that do so, nameley EE, Perdeed, Chalice and 3shpere. If you remove one of these pieces, you make heavy mana costed cards worse. Hell, nobody even plays bombs like Fact or Fiction besides us! I also think we are finely equipped against combo and can be tuned to be even better. Nonburn aggro is also fine, so I wouldn't expect much of a change in a deck strength.

[mossivo1986]

People are not playing much Landstill and especially 4c Landstill mainly because they don't like playing complex control decks. That is especially true for Moscow's legacy community. Despite topping 5 out of 6 last tournaments here and winning two, I have seen zero interest in the deck from the players. I'm the only one playing the deck in our community at all. And man, topping Landstill perfomance is hard.

In an enviornment full of stifle/wasteland decks 4c becomes severly hampered because of its fetches into non basics. If you get to go for basics its either blue or white, so essentially they cutt you off from deed, which if you cast they have a strong shot at stifling as well anyways.

Bottom line stifle/ wasteland. Oh and that 4c has a traditionally bad red matchup, and mediocre loam matchup unless said person runs tombstalker, which you'll notice happens to be in most of the winning lists. Thus why more people play 3c.

Also running wastelands in 4c seems like a beating for you. If your running more then 2 wasteland your split looks something like this for your colorless slots.

4 mishra
3 wasteland
plus anything else colorless you might run. "in a 4c deck thats rediculous."

your better off going with distbowl and tolaria west and 3 factory as it cuts your colorless sources down by 2-3

[Tinefol]

I've missed top8 on another big (34 people) tourney after starting 3-0, then getting two draws due to time (omg, I just HATE that) and getting paired down and losing in 6th game. Nevertheless, that's mostly my own fault as I could've won game 2 in match 5, but due to play errors I lost. I still feel there's alot of room for improvement in my ability to handle the deck perfectly :)

Onto the above post. Stifle works against deck running basics (and fetches) just as fine, and wasteland severly hampers even straight UW build (believe it or not, but that's true). Loam is fine after sideboarding.

Wasteland in 4c? No and no. Unless we go up to 27-29 lands or something.

The card I was trying (and with success) in our deck is Vendillion Clique. The more I look at it the more I like it. Its so versatile -
a) formidable win condition with evasion
b) doesn't require you to tap out
c) may serve as removal as surpise blocker
d) works as proactive counter on your opponent
e) makes extirpate and meddling mage a bit stronger

So far I run two of them.

[3duece]

Mossivo has great success with vendillion clique in his 3c build, it seems like it has potential. I prefer 0 creatures in landstill but you can't argue with his results.

[imran]

I am not really sure, where to put the following deck into, but 4C Landstill seems be best place to be.

The Deck began with the following idea:

Landstill is a strong deck.
The problem is, it has a really slow clock.
So, the I Idea I had was to analyse my current deck und check the weak point, where it could be possible to replace narrow cards with creatures, that have the same "ability".

(23) Mana
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical island
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
2 City of Brass
1 Snow-Covered-Island
1 Dust Bowl
1 Academy Ruins


(9) Spot Removal and Disruption Suite

++ 3 Swords to Plowshares
This is the best spot removal a deck containing white can get. Forget anything you have heard about any new Age Swords called Path to Exile, the tempo loss will cost you a lot of games. The only problem is, its only good against creatures, due to this I use only three copies.

++ 2 Vindicate
Vindicate is the Jack of all Trades, Master of None.
The good thing about Vindicate is the massive flexibility. If necessary, kill opposing creatures, destroy opposing lands, if you want to colour-/landscrew the opponent, get rid of artifacts and enchantments. But the best is, you have a very powerful weapon to kill opposing Planeswalkers, Maindeck. The Con is the Manacost of three, this is why I am using this powerful weapon only as a two-of.
The other problem is, that this card is not Blue, which makes it much more difficult to pitch it to a Force of Will.

++ 2 Thoughtseize
This one is a tough spot. Thoughtseize is only in the deck to provide removal against all forms of decks. Against creature based decks it removes Goyfs and Moongoose, before they even come into play, giving me the knowledge edge I need against these decks. Against Landstill it can remove Plainswalkers/Standstills.
The flexibility is essential for this card.

This could be replaced with:
Bant Charm
The replacement with Bant Charm seem maybe odd, but there are some similarities:
Removal of Artifacts
Removal of Creatures
Counter target instant spell

The only thing Bant Charm can not do is to Remove an Enchantment
Another advantage is, it is blue, so it can be pitched to Force of Will.
The disadvante is, that it costs thrice as much, so I would consider a one-one split between Thoughtseize and Bant Charm.

Haunting Echoes
In the beginning I thought about using Extirpate to gain a minor advangate against decks packing four copies of a single card, but then I found out, that Haunting Echoes are really much more evil, than I’ve ever thought.
Just look on the oracle text
Remove all cards in target player's graveyard other than basic land cards from the game. Search that player's library for all cards with the same name as cards removed this way and remove them from the game. Then that player shuffles his or her library.
A single Haunting Echoes in the midgame against a deck will probably remove all of his Win-Conditions, and immediately empty the opponents hand.

Vendilion Clique
There are some similarities
- The Clique removes the strongest card out of the opponents hand
- It can be played in advance
- It is a threat

++ 1 Fire // Ice
Is one of the best removal spells against Elves!, and fast aggro decks. If I can only once get a two-for-one, I am on the winning road. The good thing is, it cantrips, if not needed. The card was better with Isochron Scepter in the deck, but it is still still good enough and it increases the blue count.

This could be replaced with:
Porphyry Nodes
Surprised? Yes I know, just add another Swords, cause you are running only three, but the advantage is, Nodes will stay on the board, until it is clear. No more creature problems, the only thing you have to do is wait and survive.
The Nodes are highly annoying for creature based decks, and it works as a type of mass removal.
In most cases you get a better kill ration than two-for-one.
And the best thing, Nodes will leave the board, when it has finished its work.

++ 1 Diabolic Edict
This is a supplement for Swords to Plowshares, which can remove shroud-creature.

This could be replaced with:
Shriekmaw
The good thing about Shriekmaw is, that it can be recurred creature removal. The problem is, that the deck becomes vulnerable against creatures with shroud (I look at you Mongoose and Progenitus).
On the other hand, you will get a creature on board, that can attack.
I have sometimes the problem, that I am in total control on the board, but am desperately waiting for a Win-Condition to seal the deal.

Chainer’s Edict
(the good thing about Chainer’s Edict is, you can cast it twice, I don’t know how important it is that it’s not an instant, but the good thing is, you can cast it twice, making your graveyard relevant against decks, that are unprepared for it)


(4) Mass Removal

++ 2 Pernicious Deed
One of the best mass removals. The only problem I have with this card is, that it solves the problems only for some time and it is pretty clunky. Thus I included it only as a two of and included two more mass removals as supplement to get to a healthy number of a total of four mass removal spells.

++ 1 Engineered explosives
Only one Engineered Explosives sounds odd, but this one is a special spot. I get it only if I really need it and can start recursion tricks with Academy Ruins. After a lot of brainstorming the ruins are only really good with EE, making its inclusion questionable.

This could be replaced with:
Crime // Punishment
In the end, Crime // Punishment fulfils the same spot, the good thing is, in the late game it serves also as a Win-Condition.
Put target creature or enchantment card in an opponent's graveyard into play under your control. Its true, that Crime // Punishment is much slower, but it the end, I need a stong removal card together with a Win-Condition.

++ 1 The Abyss
The Abyss is in my opinion an overlooked and underused card.
I know its expensive, but the good thing is, it is a permanent solution against a lot of decks. Creature based decks need at least 2 creatures to get through. The best card to supplement The Abyss is a Maze of Ith. The combination of these two cards forces the opponent to overextend, just what you want. It also works great with Artifact Creatures and Plainswalkers. I just love this card.


(7) Counter-/Disruptionsuite

++ 4 Force of Will
No comment

++ 2 Counterspell
Only two Counterspells?
Odd, isn’t it?
The problem with counterspell is, I am happy to see one, but I am not happy to have two in my hand. Two is enough to get it when you need it.
In combination with the card drawing power of
Standstill
Etched Oracle
Brainstorm
It feels more than two

++ 1 Cryptic Command
This is a testrun. It serves as a late game advantage card. I am just unsure, if the average CMC of this deck is not getting too high, but I want to know, why the Command is currently one of the best cards in Extended.
Don’t tell me it is too slow, Extended is a fast format, which has a lot of fast and powerful decks, thus I don’t really understand, why the Command isn’t played in Legacy too.

This could be replaced with:
Counterspell

Dromar’s Charm
You gain 5 life; or counter target spell; or target creature gets -2/-2 until end of turn
As versatile as you can get a charm, life control, board control, creatur contol. Not extremely powerful, but extremely versatile and one mana cheaper than the command. This Charm serves the same role as Vindicate, as it is never a dead card in any Matchup.


(13) Draw-Engine / Card Quality Assurance

++ 4 Brainstorm
No comment


++ 3 Standstill
Yes, this is only a three of.
The reason is, I don’t have manlands as a real Win-Condition (making it more a type of “Plain(swalker)still”). I call prefer to call it Legacy Keeper.
3 Etched Oracle
This card is great, it draws you cards, can go to beatdown mode and can be recurred with Academy Ruins/Volrath’s Stronghold.
And the best thing, it dodges The Abyss. All you need is an Oracle and The Abyss to win games.
In the midgame it always comes into play with four counters.
These are my Standstills number four, five and six.
I often compare the Oracle with Shriekmaw, which can remove a creature AND is a threat.

++ 1 Enlightened Tutor
Fetch whatever you need
Mass Removal (TheAbyss, Pernicious Deed, Engineered Explosives)
Card Draw (Standstill, Etched Oracle)
Win-Condition (Etched Oracle, Vedalken Shakles)

This could be replaced with:
Cruel Tutor

++ 1 Crucible of the Worlds
This is other half of the Evil Tag-Team of Dustbowl/Crucible.

This could be replaced with:
Tolaria West
If you just want to search for the Dustbowl, Tolaria West could be another possible inclusion.

++ 1 Regrowth
This is your only way to get your plainswalkers back, or the best card you used during the game.

This could be replaced with:
Swords to Plowshares
The target of this deck is to reach the late game, an additional Spot Removal card will help you!

All Sun’s Dawn
This one is expensive and powerful.
I know it seems odd to include this card into a Legacy-Deck, but it feels like playing Yawghmoth’s Will.
You can get a Force of Will to protect yourself during the round you are tapped out, and then beat the hell out of your opponent.
If you cast this successful, you will definitely get four cards into you hand.
It is the perfect topdeck card in the late game and shift the Win-Percentage heavily into our favour.


(4) Win-Condition

++ 1 Elspeth

++ 1 Ajani Vengeant

++ 1 Exalted Angel
This is the card I am currently thinking of cutting out of the deck. Exalted Angel is a strong card, it is a powerful Win-Condition, has evasion and can gain you life.
The problem is, The Abyss and Exalted are not really a tag-team.
The Life-gain Effect is the most important factor of the Angel. The problem is that it is an extremely vulnerable creature.
I need the Life-gain Effect due to the high amount of cards like:
Fetchland
City of Brass
Thoughtseize

If I can reduce the number of Thoughtseize (transfer one into a Bant Charm) and replace the Cryptic Command than I see good
Chances to replace the Exalted Angel.

This could be replaced with:
Ethersworn Adjucator
I am impressed by this card, It is Creature and Enchantment control, it is blue and it can be recurred by the Stronghold.

Morphling
Old school, but still good
And it pitches to Force

++ 1 Vedalken Shakles
Creature control

This could be replaced with:
Maze of Ith
In combination with TheAbyss, Maze of Ith is a highly annoying card.
If you get it in the beginning it will save you a lot of life.


After a long consideration I came up with the following version of the deck

The new deck
(24) Mana
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
2 City of Brass
1 Dust Bowl
1 Maze of Ith
1 Academy Ruins

(9) Spot Removal and Disruption Suite
3 Swords to Plowshares (1)
2 Vindicate (3)
1 Diabolic Edict (2)
1 Fire // Ice (2)
1 Thoughtseize (1)
1 Shriekmaw (2)

(4) Mass Removal
2 Pernicious Deed (3)
1 Crime // Punishment (5)
1 The Abyss (4)

(7) Counter-/Disruptionsuite
4 Force of Will (0)
2 Counterspell (2)
1 Cryptic Command (4)

(13) Draw-Engine / Card Quality Assurance
4 Brainstorm (1)
3 Standstill (2)
3 Etched Oracle (4)
1 Enlightened Tutor (1)
1 Crucible of the Worlds (3)
1 Regrowth (2)

(3) Win-Condition
1 Elspeth (4)
1 Ajani Vengeant (4)
1 Ethersworn Adjucator (5)

What do you think about it?

[Tacosnape]

This is interesting. About a year back I built a secret deck called "Pile Bunker," which ran along a similar theory: Take a conventional strategy and minimize the possibilities of ever getting dead cards in your hand by drowning it in versatility. It's the same reason why I have one Umezawa's Jitte randomly sitting in a lot of creature decks. And sometimes it really works fantastically. And it was insanely difficult for players to predict.

That said, ew, god, no. You're splashing red for one Fire/Ice and Ajani Vengeant? Epic fail. Cut that and increase your manabase consistency and get the fourth Swords to Plowshares back in. Get Ajani and Adjunk out for real cards. Etc. You can branch out and be versatile without overdoing it.

[imran]

Regarding the splash, do you really thing the mana base will get better by dropping one color? We are already pretty on the edge and cards like stifle, Wasteland, and stuff like that will give us a hard time. Regarding mana stabilty, I guess I am running more blue mana sources than most decks in this thread. I know this is due to the fact, that I have no manlands, but the fact is I am running more blue mana sources.

Regarding the red splash.

1 Fire // Ice
I know, it looks like "crap" but running another swords is not always the solution. The solution would be to run more cards, that can control creatures hordes. Rather than running more cards like Swords I would run Porphyry Nodes. This deck needs more cards that do two for one. The only concern i have with this is, that I am lowering the blue count.

What do you think about the nodes? Its like a cheaper Abyss, or am I missing something?

The explanation for Ajani is here:

1 Ajani Vengeant
I guess the this is a tough explanation.
Ajani is in the deck for different reason. Looking at the three abilities:
+1: Target permanent doesn't untap during its controller's next untap step.
I have used this abilty more than once. Color cut the opponent from a color by tapping a land and slowing him down. Now you are asking yourself how this can function without any LD-spells, but sometimes it just happens, when I am on the play.
Drop land number one.
Swords the first creature
Drop land number two
Counter the second creature
Drop land number three
Vindicate land number two of the opponent
Drop land number four
Play Ajani and constantly tap land of the opponent

It just happens on occasions, but it happens. Also it is possible to tap a Tarmogoyf the opponent has just attacked with.
Ajani ist just a flexible wall.

-2: Ajani Vengeant deals 3 damage to target creature or player and you gain 3 life.
Don’t underestimate this ability. It is a Lightning Helix for four mana, in the end I can spot remove the weakest creature and I can gain three life for it. In my opinion three life is the more important thing.

-7: Destroy all lands target player controls.
I guess I have never used this ability, dealing three damage is just more important.


What I need in this deck is a life-gainer. Having Ajani seems to me a good solution, it is spot removal, life gainer and it is resistant to the abyss.

Otherwise I would just play the Exalted Angel.

Any suggestion now?

[Krm]

First of all, I like your approach.

What I dont understand is the amount of possibly "random" 1-ofs in the list without a tutoring effect for it, like fire/ice, diabolic edict or thoughtseize.

If you need a life-gaining ability that desperately, could the other ajani work too? In theory there is a synergy with oracle but I'm not sure if that one works out in practice as well..

A lot of cards in your list have a great synergy with manlands, so why the cut? Is the color stability really that bad with an additional set of factories or the like?..

I actually cant imagine standstill still being good enough to justify its inclusion in the list you posted. The only real advantage of an early standstill would be to stall the opponent till you can play lategame threats, but you have no way to force the opponent to even consider breaking it (but a lot of decks might have ways to build up pressure themselves with standstill in play), so its only really good right after you played a planeswalker, holding removal or fow for the threat your opponent will play after.

Gifts ungiven might also be a possible inclusion too, with some of the recurring stuff and the given amount of "1-of bombs".

I think the approach to take elements from 4c(gifts)-rock and implement them into 4/5c landstill seems promising, but it's hard to fully abuse the power of these elements in a landstill shell cause it somewhat weakens other parts of your gameplan: standstill gets much worse, you cant keep mana open, your additions arent really improving your clock at all.
Especially the last part, as it was your original idea, was neglected quite a bit, you still wont win the game before you have established full control, and i cant see why the list gets to that point faster than others.

For the aspect of also having a "clock" I liked the 4c list with goyfs and monasteries, cause once you have control, even if its only for 2 turns, you can inflict a lot of damage rather fast (e.g. a 5/6 goyf and a 4/4 monastery usually doesnt take more than 2 turns to finish)

[imran]

First of all, thanks for the feedback.

Let me try to answer your first question:

++ The amount of possible random 1-ofs
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The deck is splitted up into different parts. The number in brackets is the casting cost.

The first section is Spot removal

3 Swords to Plowshares (1)
1 Thoughtseize (1)
1 Diabolic Edict (2)
1 Fire // Ice (2)
1 Shriekmaw (2)
2 Vindicate (3)
1 Ajani Vengeant (4)
1 Ethersworn Adjucator (5)


I have 4 spot removals at CC 1, 3 spot removal at CC 2, 2 at CC 3, one at four and one at five.
These are a total of 11 spot removals, four out of them are able to remove much more than just a creature (Thouhtseize and Vindicate and Adjucator), three (Shriekmaw, Ajani and Adjucator) are Win-Conditions and two out of them are, if killed also a recurring spot removal. It seems like random 1-ofs, but they spot removals with different casting cost and with the increase of casting cost they get more flexible and they can be used also as a Win-Condition!

Lets look on the deck in this way, that I want to reduce the number of cards, that are dead in certain match-ups

The section Mass Removal is pretty obvious.

The section Countersuite:

4 Force of Will (0)
2 Counterspell (2)
1 Cryptic Command (4)

The card I am not really happy with is the cryptic command. I have really thought about replacing it with
Glen Alandra, Archmage
Voidmage Prodigy

or something like this.

What do you think?
Should I explain card choices more?

[slaiter]

My list:

// Lands
1 Scrubland
1 Nantuko Monastery
1 Savannah
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Underground Sea
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Academy Ruins
3 Wasteland

// Creatures
2 Tombstalker

// Spells
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare // or Stifle?
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Standstill
2 Fact or Fiction
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Force of Will
2 Engineered Explosives

My meta-game:
Goblins
Dreadstill
DeadGuy
Loam(big problem)
Dragon-Stompy(big problem)
Zoo(oh yeah, Price of Progress based(3-4 MD))


Suggestions?

[Tinefol]

About too many non blue lands, not enough fetches to be consistent enough. Cut & add.

[3duece]

Also, 8 colorless sources are too many, and you don't need three tundra. I'd cut the ruins, and tundra, a wasteland and a factory for more blue. You really should be running all your duals blue and a full 8 fetches.

[Tacosnape]

My meta-game:
Goblins
Dreadstill
DeadGuy
Loam(big problem)
Dragon-Stompy(big problem)
Zoo(oh yeah, Price of Progress based(3-4 MD))


Suggestions?

Other than "Don't run 4C Landstill in that Metagame, for the love of Jesus?"

Run six to eight Blue Blasts in your sideboard. Turn Dragon Stompy better, and Goblins/Zoo favorable. Some of the Blasts even help against Loam to stop Burning Wish, Crusher, and Dev. Dreams. From there it's just a matter of stopping Loam, which can be done with a combination of Extirpate and Meddling Mage.

[Krm]

What can help 4c landstill versus even slower control decks that play significant threats, like itf (recurring stuff), mono blue control (back to basics + better draw, more counters), uw landstill (decree under standstill, planeswalkers)?
often my hands are too slow to kill them before they have stabilized and lategame they are simply better.

[Tinefol]

Well, that has been my concern for a while and basically there are two cards, which, uncountered, make things in your favor. Its Jace and Haunting Echoes.

[ebbitten]

With maelstrom pulse coming in the next set is Ubg landstill going to become the more popular flavor? Its basically an on-color vindicate and theres plenty of good black removal, if nothing quite as nice as stp

[Tacosnape]

With maelstrom pulse coming in the next set is Ubg landstill going to become the more popular flavor? Its basically an on-color vindicate and theres plenty of good black removal, if nothing quite as nice as stp

No. Here's why.

1. Most 4C Landstill builds don't run Vindicate already.
2. Pernicious Deed >> Maelstrom Pulse.
3. Instants >> Sorceries.
4. Maelstrom Pulse can't hit a land whereas Vindicate can, meaning it can't help swing the balance by hitting opposing manlands, ports, wastes, etc.

Don't get me wrong. Pulse is a great card. Just not here.

[mossivo1986]

No. Here's why.

1. Most 4C Landstill builds don't run Vindicate already.
2. Pernicious Deed >> Maelstrom Pulse.
3. Instants >> Sorceries.
4. Maelstrom Pulse can't hit a land whereas Vindicate can, meaning it can't help swing the balance by hitting opposing manlands, ports, wastes, etc.

Don't get me wrong. Pulse is a great card. Just not here.

With as much as I normally agree with your logic; I think your dead wrong on this one. Deed and vindicate are seeing play in MANY of the 4c models, and this allows 3c deed still to evolve just alittle bit further. I think it will allow tombstalker type of builds, maybe something more of an eva green flavor, but with a ton of removal elements for these new aggro control decks.

[Elf_Ascetic]

No. Here's why.

1. Most 4C Landstill builds don't run Vindicate already.
2. Pernicious Deed >> Maelstrom Pulse.
3. Instants >> Sorceries.
4. Maelstrom Pulse can't hit a land whereas Vindicate can, meaning it can't help swing the balance by hitting opposing manlands, ports, wastes, etc.

Don't get me wrong. Pulse is a great card. Just not here.

I think you have to reconsider some points. First: he was talking about UBG, not 4C. Of course, Vindicate > Pulse, so what is the point running Pulse if you're into white already. So, for UBG landstill.

Deed is better than pulse, and no question about cutting Deed. I always kept losing to Elspeth with UGB Landstill, and Pulse can solve that problem. I think it´s very intresting to run it 2/3 times, next to 4 deeds.

Instants > Sorceries. You're kidding. Of course they're better. But to what instant are we comparing Pulse? Putrefy? Mortify? Give me pulse, please. StP? Intresting discussion. StP is better, but Pulse is a very good "replacement" when you're not playing W. I think StP is better, but combined with the drawback of a unstable manabase, the balance may be pointing towards Pulse and his not-neediness of a 4th color.
StP > Pulse.
StP + Spash < Pulse + stabilty.

Pulse can't hit lands. True. What are you thinking about instead of it then? StP cant hit Wasteland or Port either.

[Tacosnape]

With as much as I normally agree with your logic; I think your dead wrong on this one. Deed and vindicate are seeing play in MANY of the 4c models, and this allows 3c deed still to evolve just alittle bit further. I think it will allow tombstalker type of builds, maybe something more of an eva green flavor, but with a ton of removal elements for these new aggro control decks.

If you're looking to change Landstill into aggro-control, sure. I won't dispute the point with you. I saw the card and -immediately- started working it into an LD-light Team America-style build. With Force and Daze and dynamics where I could tap out for it gleefully without any fear. I think it has fantastic potential in midrange UGB decks. I just don't think that Landstill is the deck of choice for this.


I think you have to reconsider some points. First: he was talking about UBG, not 4C. Of course, Vindicate > Pulse, so what is the point running Pulse if you're into white already. So, for UBG landstill.


Pulse can't hit lands. True. What are you thinking about instead of it then? StP cant hit Wasteland or Port either.

Can't have it both ways. Either we're comparing it to the white splash or we aren't.

If we -are- comparing it to the white splash, Pulse is garbage because Vindicate's better.

If we're -not- comparing it to the white splash, and strictly limiting this to UGB, it's better. That said, I don't think it's better enough to win more than 1-2 slots max, and I personally wouldn't run the thing at all. It costs 3, it's sorcery speed, it doesn't pitch to Force of Will, it taps you out to use it, and it only solves a very small number of problems that the deck can't solve otherwise.

And if we're -not- comparing it to the white splash, why aren't we? If we want a Vindicate-like effect, where's the superiority gained by not adding white for STP and Vindicate, and additionally, Meddling Mage SB and Nantuko Monestary main?


Deed is better than pulse, and no question about cutting Deed. I always kept losing to Elspeth with UGB Landstill, and Pulse can solve that problem.

Granted. The one use it has that UGB sucks at otherwise is nailing a Planeswalker. It's worth noting that Goyf and Stalker both do this, though.


Instants > Sorceries. You're kidding. Of course they're better. But to what instant are we comparing Pulse? Putrefy? Mortify? Give me pulse, please. StP? Intresting discussion. StP is better, but Pulse is a very good "replacement" when you're not playing W. I think StP is better, but combined with the drawback of a unstable manabase, the balance may be pointing towards Pulse and his not-neediness of a 4th color.
StP > Pulse.
StP + Spash < Pulse + stabilty.

I think you're wrong. I say STP + Splash >> Pulse + Stability. Where's that leave us?

If we were comparing STP to Pulse, I'd point out all the games you'd lose to Goblin Lackey because you couldn't STP the guy quick enough, Magus of the Moon because you couldn't float the white to Swords him, Painter's Servant because the combo came out faster than your third land, Tarmogoyf because you tapped out to Pulse him and got Dazed, Mystic Enforcer because he's immune to Pulse, and half the other decks in the world because you tapped out three land to remove a threat and left yourself in a position where you didn't have mana for Counterspell.

That said, without covering the splash, I'd compare Pulse to Diabolic Edict before anything else. There's no way I wouldn't want quad Edicts before I touched a Pulse.

All of this said, you could probably justify running 1-2 of these in a UGB build. Just for versatility. And I think people will do it. I just think it's weak.

[Tinefol]

Just going to throw in the recent list.

// Lands
4 [R] Tundra
3 [R] Underground Sea
3 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
1 [JU] Nantuko Monastery
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
1 [R] Scrubland

// Planeswalkers
1 [LRW] Jace Beleren
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant

// Spells
4 [OD] Standstill
1 [IN] Fact or Fiction
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [7E] Counterspell
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
4 [MM] Brainstorm
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [DIS] Crime/Punishment
1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
1 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
1 [TE] Humility
2 [CNF] Path to Exile

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 2 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 2 [TE] Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 3 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip

Elspeth is pure awesomeness. Even with its double W cost, its clearly the superior win condition for the deck. And if we are there, why not add Humility and a little E.tutor toolbox? It really works out. My biggest problem as of now is burn/sligh match up, which is nearly unwinnable preboard, and remains so, unless you get COP: Red. Is there anything that can be done against burn?

[DragoFireheart]

Will Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker see any play in Landstill? Or is he too slow even with this deck?

[mossivo1986]

Wow. Just Wow.

Love and Kisses
-Moss

[Elf_Ascetic]

Will Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker see any play in Landstill? Or is he too slow even with this deck?

Well, since our friendlyhearted Moss is just flabbergasted by the idea of Nicol Bolas in landstill, I will explain why no one has even tested him.

It's effects are nice. But. See in the right top corner? That awfull manacost? Double black. Red. We don't run black AND red. Most of the time, we don't run red. Thereby, 8 mana is huge. It's about two time the maximumcost for any card in any legacy deck I think, including this'.

So, just accept Nicol Bolas as an casual-only card, and of course, accept Mossivo's love and kisses.


@ Moss: really like your latest style of replying to something uhm... controversial.

[rockout]

Will Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker see any play in Landstill? Or is he too slow even with this deck?

I wish I could play him. Windmill Slam That Hoe Onto The Table!

[mossivo1986]

I wish I could play him. Windmill Slam That Hoe Onto The Table!

Well I think if I played him i'd for sure add me some doubling season so I could for sure activate that seven damage discard said hand and love it up all the way.

Am I right, am I right?

I was flabbergasted because I look at teeg and go this is unfortunate. That and I can't believe that got mentioned in this thread.

[DragoFireheart]

I was flabbergasted because I look at teeg and go this is unfortunate. That and I can't believe that got mentioned in this thread.

I figured the question was a dumb one, but wanted to hear the responses anyhow.

[Pelikanudo]

Has anybody tested Coatl in this archetype? Because if Vorosh Still was good becuase of Tarmo-C.B-Standstill , I suppose that Coatl instead Tarmo is a better choice.

I'd like you boys tell me your lists,explanations, impressions about the coatl regarding this deck.

By the way it could be something like this:
//NAME: CoatlStill
3 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Nantuko Monastery

4 The Great Lorescale Coatl
4 Standstill
2 Fact or Fiction
1 Jace Beleren
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Spell Snare
1 Diabolic Edict
// Sideboard:
SB: 4 Meddling Mage
SB: 4 Engineered Plague
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 Extirpate

[Tacosnape]

Coatl's not that good here. Tarmogoyf's better. Most lists still don't run Tarmogoyf. The problem with threats in this deck is the same as it's always been. Threats turn on opponents' removal.

I've been tinkering around with Planeswalkers, as of late. I love them in this deck. Absolutely love them. At the moment, they're my weapon of choice. Here's my build at the moment.

4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Nantuko Monestary

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Jace Beleren
1 Liliana Vess
1 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Diabolic Edict
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Spell Snare

SB:
4 Meddling Mage
3 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Extirpate
2 Krosan Grip
2 Engineered Plague
2 Circle of Protection: Red

Why 4 Diabolic Edict: Fast aggro is increasingly commonplace, and you need to keep the board clear of threats to abuse the Planeswalkers.

Why Garruk Wildspeaker: He's just fantastic in Landstill. He completely subverts the drawback of tapping out to play stuff. You can go turn 4 Garruk, untap two, Standstill. Garruk, untap, counterspell mana. Garruk, untap, edict the threat. Etc. Additionally, Garruk makes beasts, ending games quickly in time crunches.

Why Jace Beleren and Liliana Vess: In addition to Jace being a solid drawing engine and Liliana being able to search up whatever card you need and knock cards out of an opponent's hands, two more synergistic cards might have never been printed. If out together, they're ridiculous, and all of their abilities line up as follows:

Jace's 1st / Liliana's 1st: Each player draws, opponent discards.
Liliana's 2nd / Jace's 2nd: Demonic Tutor.
Jace's 3rd / Liliana's 3rd: Roll twenty, then steal all the creatures you rolled. Granted, you'll almost never pull this one off in tandem, but still.

[Tinefol]

Why Diabolic Edict over Explosives and/or Path to Exile? That's setup that worked for me for a while now. Why no Elspeth? If you like Garruk that much, why only one copy? Also with those double costs, why not go Ubg?

[Tacosnape]

Why Diabolic Edict over Explosives and/or Path to Exile? That's setup that worked for me for a while now. Why no Elspeth? If you like Garruk that much, why only one copy? Also with those double costs, why not go Ubg?

Edict stops things I can't stop with Path or targeted removal. Everything from Stromgald Crusader to Progenitus to whatever.

Also, with PTE, I'm irrevocably committed to getting a Tundra ASAP if I want removal. Always having to get a Tundra on my first land makes it more difficult to curve into Deed on turn three.

Also, with PTE, I'm more vulnerable to Chalice of the Void.

Engineered Explosives is a different story. EE is pretty good. I keep wanting to squeeze one in, but not for an Edict. Edict does what it needs to do for less mana - keep the board clear so I can abuse the Planeswalkers.

@Garruk: One is plenty. I never ever want to see two, and early Planeswalkers clog my hand. That said, I've also tried a version without Jace/Liliana and with two Garruks, and it worked pretty well. Note that in my current version, Liliana can hunt up Garruk.

@UBG: I could, but I like STP and I like Mage, and I oddly found my deck didn't get a whole lot more consistent without white. It's also worth noting that if you have Garruk out, you can cast other Planeswalkers with only one splash land.

@Elspeth: Tried it. Considering putting it back in. Found it the weakest of the four in this deck. I don't back Elspeth up with Humility, or very many other permanents save my manlands that would benefit from the indestructibility. The tokens every turn are nice, but no more so than Garruk's alternating of untap two/make a beast. Also tried Ajani Goldmane, whose lifegain made for an intriguing option.

[mattbrownsound]

@Garruk: One is plenty. I never ever want to see two, and early Planeswalkers clog my hand. That said, I've also tried a version without Jace/Liliana and with two Garruks, and it worked pretty well. Note that in my current version, Liliana can hunt up Garruk.


Based on this, would it be safe to say that if you had to choose just a single planeswalker to run, it would be Garruk? I ask because I am seriously considering adding a single planesalker as a finisher to my 4C Landstill build which runs 4x Tarmogoyf and wondered who would best fill that role.

[Tacosnape]

Based on this, would it be safe to say that if you had to choose just a single planeswalker to run, it would be Garruk? I ask because I am seriously considering adding a single planesalker as a finisher to my 4C Landstill build which runs 4x Tarmogoyf and wondered who would best fill that role.

Yes. Garruk is the god of all. The land untap ability is psycho strong.

I've also ditched Liliana in favor of Elspeth. Elspeth's retarded. Seriously.

I'm tinkering around with the 2 Fact or Fiction slots, which end up being anything from Snare/Planeswalker #4 to Relic of Progenitus to Vindicate. Can't quite make up my mind, but as of the moment being, my list is:

4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Nantuko Monestary

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Diabolic Edict
4 Pernicious Deed
1 Vindicate
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
2 Jace Beleren
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Garruk Wildspeaker

SB:
4 Meddling Mage
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Extirpate
2 Engineered Plague
2 Krosan Grip

[mattbrownsound]

Why is there so little activity on this thread? Do people not think this deck is good anymore? Or has everyone just settled on their decklists?

[Tacosnape]

I still play this, but I don't need these forums to listen to myself talk.:)

[jimirynk]

4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Nantuko Monestary

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Diabolic Edict
4 Pernicious Deed
1 Vindicate
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
2 Jace Beleren
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Garruk Wildspeaker

SB:
4 Meddling Mage
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Extirpate
2 Engineered Plague
2 Krosan Grip

No LD or loam?
Why play the green splash and not play loam?
Is your late game any stronger than ITF that is the same colors?
Also I would play 2 Elspeth, they are that good.
Garruk seems just worse than elspeth.
I could see it being cute with DoJ+over run out of no where but thats about it.
I've been toying around with a Uwgb list with 2 intuition,1 loam,1 worm harvest,1 dust bowl.

[Tacosnape]

I've been toying around with a Uwgb list with 2 intuition,1 loam,1 worm harvest,1 dust bowl.

Yeah, I'm actually going that direction. I'm tinkering with a lot of builds that pull Standstill out, because I just don't feel like trying to fight to keep superiority for it. 4C Landstill's struggling too hard in a metagame where Goblins, Merfolk, Ichorid, and Landstill mirrors can all make your Standstills somewhat useless. I'm playing around a lot with the Intuition-Loam engines, and also a more yard-hate resistant deck running Ancestral Visions/Jace (But not Ultimate Walker.)

My lists for actual Landstill builds keep shifting every couple days and I keep adding Jaces and adding Jaces. Elspeth's the only other Walker you can support in 4C (I've given up on Garruk, though I love him in UBG Garrukstill), but I've actually been running 4 Jaces recently and have been doing very well with it. Excess Jaces either pitch to early Forces or just draw themselves to death while you drop the next one.

[jimirynk]

I've played around with 3 jace in landstill and it is GREAT vs. control.
Same with Visions.
But jace in the aggro matchup is usually nothing more then a 3cc cantrip.
Visions CAN be to slow in a aggro meta but is really good in the mirror.
4 jace is to much.
If your meta is so much gobs, merfolk, landstill I would not play such a weak 4c mana base and play Uwb.

[Tacosnape]

But jace in the aggro matchup is usually nothing more then a 3cc cantrip.

See, this is exactly what I used to think. Months and months of testing have convinced me otherwise. Jace is good against aggro. He's better against control, yes, but Jace is good against everything.

The trick to maximizing Jace is to run a build that can keep threats from hitting him. In my case, I do this by trying simply to kill every threat that hits the board. If I can do this for two or three turns, dropping a Jace will often let me get enough card advantage to keep things that way indefinitely. One of my lists, for demonstrative purposes:

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Mutavault

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Jace Beleren

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Diabolic Edict / Innocent Blood
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Engineered Explosives

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare

With this build, I don't find it hard to drop Jace on a clear board against aggro.

Now, against Zoo? There's a good chance you're going to drop Jace, draw, and have him burned into oblivion. This is not a bad thing. This is one less burn spell they have to aim at your head, and what's more, you got your card back. Conversely, you have the option in certain circumstances to lead with Jace's +2 ability, putting him at 5 loyalty and requiring double burn to take him down. This isn't a bad thing either. You got your card back, and they spent one more card than the card your Jace activation gave them. The end result is that either way you're up a card.

Jace has a thousand things going for him, and if this deck has a future, he's it. He's a backup kill condition. He doesn't require you have any of your splash colors to be effective. And he greatly increases the likelyhood of your Standstill superiorty.

The build above has a lot going for it also. Immunity to graveyard hate, for one (And in some metagames I'd strongly consider maindeck Relic). Strength in not needing your splash colors as often (No more GW for Monestary, no more double splash for Elspeth or Garruk, etc.) Sideboard's fairly customizable between things such as Mage, Blasts, Extirpate/Relic, Grip, Plague, Duress, etc.

[Shanghi Knights]

please for give my non contributing post to this thread but I couldn't help but notice the person above was 666 post.:laugh: i'll be on my now.

[mattbrownsound]

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Mutavault

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Jace Beleren

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Diabolic Edict / Innocent Blood
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Engineered Explosives

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare


I really like this build, for all the reasons you mentioned. Do you think x4 Mishra's Factory and x4 Mutavault is enough offense to reliably win games in a quick enough fashion to get match wins? With this deck it seems like if a match goes to Game 3 there is good chance it will end in a draw.

[Cenarius]

Yeah, the same occurs to me too. Don't you want Elspeth, maybe even once, to actually win games?

Also, Maelström pulse. Did you consider it? It just seem as a Vindicate, without manabase disruption but instead multiple target removal.
Personally I think that Maelström Pulse is one of the card why you want to play this deck, with Pernicious Deed.

[Tacosnape]

I really like this build, for all the reasons you mentioned. Do you think x4 Mishra's Factory and x4 Mutavault is enough offense to reliably win games in a quick enough fashion to get match wins? With this deck it seems like if a match goes to Game 3 there is good chance it will end in a draw.

I think so. You're looking at a build with eight manlands and more draw than anything ever, so you'll get them very quickly. And I keep tinkering around with the idea of a single recursion spell if necessary. That said, it's still Landstill. You can't dawdle much if you expect a long match, and you can't let your opponent stall.

Also, don't forget that the deck packs Mages in the sideboard, and these kick up the clock a bit.


Yeah, the same occurs to me too. Don't you want Elspeth, maybe even once, to actually win games?

Also, Maelström pulse. Did you consider it? It just seem as a Vindicate, without manabase disruption but instead multiple target removal.
Personally I think that Maelström Pulse is one of the card why you want to play this deck, with Pernicious Deed.

Elspeth's fantastic, no argument, but the diversification of the manabase makes it very difficult to support. And those times where it gets into your hand too early when you need it to be removal, countermagic, or draw, it can cost you games also. My current builds swap power (And to a degree, versatility) in favor of ridiculous consistency, and I've been happy with it thus far.

As for Maelstrom Pulse, the answer is a resounding no. I can't quite squeeze Vindicate in the deck, and there's absolutely no way I'd pick Pulse over Vindicate when one of the biggest things my build can't do effectively is get rid of lands.

[HPB_Eggo]

This may be completely off-topic, but has anyone thought of creating a red splash variant for this? You lose Swords to Plowshares, but I think there are enough ways to replace it, and it would help immensely against Goblins, Zoo, Merfolk, and random aggro decks, as Firespout basically wins you the game, acting as additional Deeds. Looking at the current meta, I would think this to be a good thing.

Also, it lets you run Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker, this being one of the few decks that can fairly consistently get the mana to cast him without losing. I think he would make games much faster, as landing him is, effectively, the end of the game.

I don't know if it's any good, but I've started testing it. It's a thought, at the very least.

[Tacosnape]

This may be completely off-topic, but has anyone thought of creating a red splash variant for this? You lose Swords to Plowshares, but I think there are enough ways to replace it, and it would help immensely against Goblins, Zoo, Merfolk, and random aggro decks, as Firespout basically wins you the game, acting as additional Deeds. Looking at the current meta, I would think this to be a good thing.

Firespout is pretty weak. Every threat removal I run is either the best or the most versatile of it's kind. Swords to Plowshares is one white to get rid of any creature. Deed takes down artifacts and enchantments with it. EE does Deed's role with less power, but it's quicker, less color specific, takes down Planeswalkers, and is better against Counterbalance. Diabolic Edict/Innocent Blood takes down anything that's otherwise difficult to remove.

If Tribal's a problem, run a playset of Plague in the sideboard.

If you're willing to cut white and lose STP and Mage, you're better off just upping the Sea and Tropical count to 4 and running UBG.


Also, it lets you run Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker, this being one of the few decks that can fairly consistently get the mana to cast him without losing. I think he would make games much faster, as landing him is, effectively, the end of the game.

Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker will lose you more games than you can count by being a dead card in your hand anytime you catch him in, say, the first 20 cards. If I wanted a finisher, I'd play Elspeth or Garruk, depending on the color scheme.

My current build doesn't actually run anything that costs more than 3. I struggle to place 4-drops in the deck. Nicol Bolas isn't anywhere close to being playable.

[HPB_Eggo]

Firespout is pretty weak.

I'm not sure how you come to this conclusion. It acts as a 3-mana WoG against a good deal of the format: Goblins, Merfolk, random aggro, and almost everything in Zoo. The creatures that are commonly run that it doesn't kill, i.e. Goyf, Tombstalker, and Dreadnought, can be handled by permission or spot removal. Seems pretty good to me, although probably only as a 2-of or 3-of.


Every threat removal I run is either the best or the most versatile of it's kind.

I wasn't really commenting about your deck. I like your build quite a bit. I'm just throwing out an interesting idea that came to mind.


If Tribal's a problem, run a playset of Plague in the sideboard.

I do. But Engineered Plague generally only stops certain decks, Tribal and Landstill being the important ones. Firespout helps a lot against Tribal and Zoo, as well as making random aggro matchups more or less a bye.


If you're willing to cut white and lose STP and Mage, you're better off just upping the Sea and Tropical count to 4 and running UBG.

I would miss Mage, but StP, while being very good, never generates CA, which is one thing I've always disliked about it. Enough so that I'm willing to cut white entirely and switch to red? I'm not sure.


Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker will lose you more games than you can count by being a dead card in your hand anytime you catch him in, say, the first 20 cards. If I wanted a finisher, I'd play Elspeth or Garruk, depending on the color scheme.

I'm fairly sure you're wrong here. Running him as a 2-of means the chances of drawing him stay below 50% until turn 12. Even if you do draw him early on, he's blue and can be pitched to FoW, which is perfectly acceptable because you have a second one.

The same thing could be said of running 4 Jace, which is why I think running only 2 or 3 is probably a better choice.


My current build doesn't actually run anything that costs more than 3. I struggle to place 4-drops in the deck. Nicol Bolas isn't anywhere close to being playable.

I don't see a problem with running one or two expensive cards in a deck that plans on winning very late in the game. I also don't see a problem with paying eight mana to win the game. The only real question is whether or not Nicol Bolas will actually win the game when he hits, about which I currently have no idea. This is what testing is for.

[Shawn]

Nicol Bolas costs 8, which is essentially one million mana. Yes, people sometimes play Eternal Dragon, but Dragon fetches lands before you have seven mana, and doesn't sit as a blank card in your hand until you can cast it. If you keep one in your opening hand it's a essentially a mulligan until you hit 8 mana. Cruel Ultimatum is better than Bolas, but that card is terrible in legacy. If you have 8 mana, chances are you were going to win the game anyway.


I would miss Mage, but StP, while being very good, never generates CA, which is one thing I've always disliked about it.

So? Pitching a card to Force of Will is card-disadvantage, but we still play it because it's that good.


I do. But Engineered Plague generally only stops certain decks, Tribal and Landstill being the important ones. Firespout helps a lot against Tribal and Zoo, as well as making random aggro matchups more or less a bye.

Engineered Plague is bad against landstill, even the UWb form. They can hardcast Decree, Dragon, attack with Factories, or wait until they hit Ruins to bring back Explosives or Disk then go to town with Elspeth and her soldier friends.

[HPB_Eggo]

Nicol Bolas costs 8, which is essentially one million mana.

Um...no? I hardly ever have a match where I win before I get to ten mana, let alone eight. Leastways, not with this deck.


If you have 8 mana, chances are you were going to win the game anyway.

No? I have, and continue to, lose matches after having hit eight mana. Sometimes I hit ten, and I still lose. Moreover, Nicol Bolas wins you the game faster, which is a major concern at tournaments, as I really don't want to end up drawing on game three when I'm in a winning position.

I even once built a version with Tombstalker just to take this consideration and punt it out the window. Although it ended up being quite bad, it was still an idea worth testing.


Cruel Ultimatum is better than Bolas, but that card is terrible in legacy.

Also no? Cruel Ultimatum costs one less, but is more color intensive, and only works once without having the vindicate ability attached.


So? Pitching a card to Force of Will is card-disadvantage, but we still play it because it's that good.

There's nothing that can replace FoW, and it's in the most important color of the deck. There are plenty of things that do what StP does, and it's in a color that allows people to play, essentially, two more cards. They are both great cards, but I'm not sure if white is a superior splash to red.


Engineered Plague is bad against landstill, even the UWb form.

Not true. Speaking from experience, as opposed to just some interesting speculation with the other objections, Engineered Plague is good against Landstill, be it the UW version or the UBG version. Against Tacosnape's deck, for instance, two Engineered Plague's naming Assembly Workers shuts off two of his three win conditions until he can get rid of them. Naming soldiers with one kills cycling decree and making tokens with Elspeth against UW.

It's hardly the most important card in the mirror, but it sits there and leaves you pressure-free until they can answer it or play around it, which is often long enough for you to win the game.

I would hope that some of you would actually go test Bolas before going "Eight mana!? That's unplayable!" Lots of people say the same thing when they first look at something like Standstill, and that's the basis of an entire archetype.*

* I'm in no way suggesting Nicol Bolas is as good as Standstill. That would be ridiculous. :laugh:

[Tacosnape]

1. Firespout hits a good deal of the format, but not -all- of it. My removal spells hit nearly all of it. STP and Edict hit almost everything. Deed and EE hit just about everything but Tombstalker and a few high CMC threats that hit play through tricksy shit. Firespout won't take down Tarmogoyf, for one. It won't take down Tombstalker. And against 12-lord Merfolk, it's entirely possible it won't take down anything. Plus, you have to splash a weak color for it.

2. Engineered Plague is awful against at least my build. Occasionally I'll see it boarded in because several other things were worse, but even if you get two Plagues on Assembly Worker down, I have six maindeck ways to blow them both up in one fell swoop, enough draw to ensure I get one, and an alternate kill condition if you somehow manage to keep me off of them through some combination of Pithing Needle and Extirpate.

All that said, I've occasionally boarded in Plague in control matchups when I didn't really have anything else useful to throw at them. Plague shuts off Elspeth's soldier generation and Decree's tokens in one fell swoop, and hardcast Decrees are easy for me to deal with between countermagic, Deed, and EE.

3. 8-drops suck. Period. A below 50% chance to draw an 8-drop before turn X means that just below 50% of your games you're going to be drawing a dead card before turn X. It's a little better, given that you can hide it with Brainstorm or pitch it to Force, but not much. You're better off being able to select what to pitch/hide from a larger pool of immediately usable cards.

4. Multiple Jaces is not nearly the issue that people think. If you have extras you can't pitch or hide, Jace can serve as just a delayed draw three. And you can play a new Jace and start again every two turns. For example.

Turn 3: Play Jace, Loyalty to 2, draw.
Turn 4: Loyalty to 1, draw.
Turn 5: Loyalty to 0, draw, lose Jace, play new Jace, Loyalty to 2, draw.

[Shawn]

I even once built a version with Tombstalker just to take this consideration and punt it out the window. Although it ended up being quite bad, it was still an idea worth testing.

I'm confused on what you mean here. Are you saying Tombstalker costs 8? I've never seen someone pay full retail price on Tombstalker.



Also no? Cruel Ultimatum costs one less, but is more color intensive, and only works once without having the vindicate ability attached.

Cruel Ultimatum "ends" the game on turn seven. Bolas does this on turn ten. This is why it's played over Bolas in standard. Yes, he costs B less, but 2BBRRUU is still ridiculously hard to get against the decks I play against, which include Stifle/Wasteland/Rishadan Port/Sinkhole/Daze.


Naming soldiers with one kills cycling decree and making tokens with Elspeth against UW.
And that brings us back to my arguement that they still have many other ways to win. I haven't lost a game to Engineered Plague while playing landstill.


There are plenty of things that do what StP does, and it's in a color that allows people to play, essentially, two more cards.
The thing is, all the options are very weak in comparison to Swords. Red's removal can't kill the most relevant threat in legacy, Goyf.

[Waikiki]

No cards above 3cc? what is your list? same list as posted before or did u made any changes?

[HPB_Eggo]

1. Firespout hits a good deal of the format, but not -all- of it. My removal spells hit nearly all of it. STP and Edict hit almost everything. Deed and EE hit just about everything but Tombstalker and a few high CMC threats that hit play through tricksy shit. Firespout won't take down Tarmogoyf, for one. It won't take down Tombstalker. And against 12-lord Merfolk, it's entirely possible it won't take down anything. Plus, you have to splash a weak color for it.

I'm fairly sure a good deal of the format makes it a good card. I may, of course, be entirely wrong.

Goyf and Tombstalker can be countered, hit with Edict, Smother, Deeds, Innocent Blood, etc. Moreover, you board out Firespout against things that run nothing it hits. Obviously.

Against 12-Lord Merfolk, you just need to stop them from getting down a third Lord and it will still wipe the entire board. Conditional, but what isn't?

And red is hardly a weak color. It may in fact be worse than White for this deck, but that hardly makes it a weaker color.


2. Engineered Plague is awful against at least my build. Occasionally I'll see it boarded in because several other things were worse, but even if you get two Plagues on Assembly Worker down, I have six maindeck ways to blow them both up in one fell swoop, enough draw to ensure I get one, and an alternate kill condition if you somehow manage to keep me off of them through some combination of Pithing Needle and Extirpate.

All that said, I've occasionally boarded in Plague in control matchups when I didn't really have anything else useful to throw at them. Plague shuts off Elspeth's soldier generation and Decree's tokens in one fell swoop, and hardcast Decrees are easy for me to deal with between countermagic, Deed, and EE.

Like I said, it's not the most important card, but it does work, which makes it worth board in in place of things that will do nothing. Therefore, it is good, because it does something where other things would do nothing.


3. 8-drops suck. Period. A below 50% chance to draw an 8-drop before turn X means that just below 50% of your games you're going to be drawing a dead card before turn X. It's a little better, given that you can hide it with Brainstorm or pitch it to Force, but not much. You're better off being able to select what to pitch/hide from a larger pool of immediately usable cards.

You should be able to cast him by turn twelve. This means having a 50-50 chance of drawing him by that point is not a bad thing. Moreover, having a single dead card in a deck with as much CA as this will hardly lose you the game.


4. Multiple Jaces is not nearly the issue that people think. If you have extras you can't pitch or hide, Jace can serve as just a delayed draw three. And you can play a new Jace and start again every two turns. For example.

Turn 3: Play Jace, Loyalty to 2, draw.
Turn 4: Loyalty to 1, draw.
Turn 5: Loyalty to 0, draw, lose Jace, play new Jace, Loyalty to 2, draw.

I had forgotten about that, mostly because I've never really had the chance to do it because I only run three in the build I generally play with.


I'm confused on what you mean here. Are you saying Tombstalker costs 8? I've never seen someone pay full retail price on Tombstalker

Tombstalker was a failed attempt at making Landstill win faster so third game draws would no longer be a consideration. It ended up not working out, as having a single creature means all the removal your opponent has drawn in the entire game is pointed right at it, so I ended up dropping him pretty quickly.


Cruel Ultimatum "ends" the game on turn seven. Bolas does this on turn ten. This is why it's played over Bolas in standard. Yes, he costs B less, but 2BBRRUU is still ridiculously hard to get against the decks I play against, which include Stifle/Wasteland/Rishadan Port/Sinkhole/Daze.

Have you even read the card? It costs 4BBRU, not 2BBRRUU. If it was that color intensive, it would be a good deal worse than it actually is.

Moreover, I'm fairly sure Nicol Bolas is better than Cruel Ultimatum here because it generally doesn't matter much if you wait three more turns in Landstill, and he can be reused.


And that brings us back to my arguement that they still have many other ways to win. I haven't lost a game to Engineered Plague while playing landstill.

Of course they have other ways to win. That's why they're good decks. This doesn't mean Engineered Plague isn't a good card against them. You also don't lose to Engineered Plague, you simply get slowed down by it. You either have to play around it, which generally takes time, or you have to kill it, which definitely takes time.


The thing is, all the options are very weak in comparison to Swords. Red's removal can't kill the most relevant threat in legacy, Goyf.

Red wouldn't be there to get rid of Goyf. You'd end up using more black removal, with Smother, Innocent Blood, and Diabolic Edict all being good replacements for Swords. Considering that Firespout greatly reduces fear of first-turn Lackey, I would say paying two for removal is hardly bad, and Innocent Blood is also a decent choice.

[Shawn]

Ah, my bad on the mana cost. Still, the point stands on it costing eight mana, which is very, very hard to get against the large amounts of mana-denial played in legacy. If a clock is what you want, play Elspeth, Garruk, or Decree of Justice. With these, you shouldn't have problems finishing a match within 50 minutes, unless your playing against fringe decks that see little play, such as MUC or Quinn.

[Tacosnape]

I'm fairly sure a good deal of the format makes it a good card. I may, of course, be entirely wrong.

Good, yes. The best? No. In the long game, you aren't always going to have the right removal spell at the right time.

The point on Firespout is this. It's not good against a good deal of the format. It's good against a lot of creatures in the format.

This means it's bad against any deck where creatures with toughness 3 or less aren't part of the core strategy.. This doesn't just include Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker-based decks, but it also includes decks that don't heavily rely on creatures at all, such as Storm Combo, Ultimate Walker, Landstill mirrors, etc.

Firespout is situational. All cards are situational, of course, but Firespout moreso than anything else it could replace.


Goyf and Tombstalker can be countered, hit with Edict, Smother, Deeds, Innocent Blood, etc. Moreover, you board out Firespout against things that run nothing it hits. Obviously.

They can be, but situations arise where you aren't going to have those. You'll have more things than just Goyf and Stalker to spend your counters on.

Tombstalker, furthermore, can't be hit with Smother, and often isn't going to be hit by Pernicious Deed.


And red is hardly a weak color. It may in fact be worse than White for this deck, but that hardly makes it a weaker color.

Actually, by definition, that -does- make it a weaker color. It also makes it a weak color by definition, if all the other choices are stronger than it.




Of course they have other ways to win. That's why they're good decks. This doesn't mean Engineered Plague isn't a good card against them. You also don't lose to Engineered Plague, you simply get slowed down by it. You either have to play around it, which generally takes time, or you have to kill it, which definitely takes time.

It's time you're freely giving them, by spending two cards that do nothing but delay Landstill's ability to go on the offensive rather than by using two cards that would apply more pressure or hamper Landstill's ability to defend until it's ready to kill you.

If you're going to beat Landstill, you have to do one of three things:

1. Shut it down or kill it before it can stabilize via pure speed or disruption.
2. Have a stronger long game than it or something it can't stabilize against.
3. Permanently disable all of its win conditions.

Engineered Plague does none of the three of these.

If an opponent drops a Plague, it's card advantage for me. I'll blow it up while destroying a creature or other more pertinent threat with an Explosives or a Deed.



Considering that Firespout greatly reduces fear of first-turn Lackey, I would say paying two for removal is hardly bad, and Innocent Blood is also a decent choice.

It doesn't reduce it as much as you'd think. A Waste or a Port and suddenly that Lackey's capable of killing you before you can ever get the Firespout off. In fact, you'd better hope you can sit on two Fetchlands until you get three mana.

Furthermore, if your opponent knows you'll get a sweep off or feels that their hand is less than explosive, Lackey serves a different purpose. It'll start dropping Matrons and Ringleaders to get enough card advantage to win the long game after the sweep.

[Arsenal]

For those who think Firespout > tribal, have you ever played against tribal? I can't even count the number of times Merfolk has gotten 2-3 lords out in play before Firespout resolved. Against Goblins, perhaps, as Goblins typically doesn't run too many lords, but Merfolk typically run 8-10 lords maindeck, with enough cheap counter/disruption to protect them.

[HPB_Eggo]

Ah, my bad on the mana cost. Still, the point stands on it costing eight mana, which is very, very hard to get against the large amounts of mana-denial played in legacy. If a clock is what you want, play Elspeth, Garruk, or Decree of Justice. With these, you shouldn't have problems finishing a match within 50 minutes, unless your playing against fringe decks that see little play, such as MUC or Quinn.

I play UW Landstill on a regular basis, and while I prefer the control elements run in UGB or UGBW more, it seems to win more consistently and on a faster basis. Trying to replicate that while still being able to play the control elements in UGB, especially Deeds, is more or less the origin of this idea.


Firespout is situational. All cards are situational, of course, but Firespout moreso than anything else it could replace.

Just because it's situational does not mean it is not good. In the current meta, I can be fairly sure it will be good more often than not, which is why running two main and two side seems like it could be good.


They can be, but situations arise where you aren't going to have those. You'll have more things than just Goyf and Stalker to spend your counters on.

There are always going to be those situations. However, there are suitable replacements for StP in black, especially since the decks that run Goyf and Stalker do not generally run a high creature count.


Actually, by definition, that -does- make it a weaker color. It also makes it a weak color by definition, if all the other choices are stronger than it.

And this is where you are correct in your assumption, but wrong in your conclusion. If red is, in fact, the worse color for splashing, than it is a weaker color. However, I am still not convinced that white is strictly better than red after a few hours of testing.


For those who think Firespout > tribal, have you ever played against tribal? I can't even count the number of times Merfolk has gotten 2-3 lords out in play before Firespout resolved. Against Goblins, perhaps, as Goblins typically doesn't run too many lords, but Merfolk typically run 8-10 lords maindeck, with enough cheap counter/disruption to protect them.

It is very rare that Merfolk can land a third lord before I am capable of casting Firespout to clear the board, and it's only the third lord that matters, as two won't protect anything. Especially when siding to the full four, it is very rare that Merfolk is capable of keeping many creatures in play.

[Arsenal]

It is very rare that Merfolk can land a third lord before I am capable of casting Firespout to clear the board, and it's only the third lord that matters, as two won't protect anything. Especially when siding to the full four, it is very rare that Merfolk is capable of keeping many creatures in play.

Very rare? Are you serious? I don't get the feeling you've tested this specific matchup enough. I don't see how you're getting Firespout online through Cursecatcher + Stifle/Wasteland, with them Vialing lords into play at the end of your turn.

[Benie Bederios]

Hi guys,

I've been playing UWb Landstill now for about a some months now and puttning down some solid results. I did like the look of Vorosh still and 4C Landstill, so I thought I give it a go...

First of all I read through all the pages and learned 3 things:

1. Tarmogoyf isn't needed in the deck, alltough it can win in specific meta's;

2. Double white is out of the question with BG for Pernicious Deed;

3. The 4C manabase shouldn't play basics, because they are a hinder most of the time.

I tested the build by Tinefol with 4 Tarmgoyfs in the MD and a build somewhere on the first pages by Bardo( UBg with CB.) I also tested briefly Tacosnapes last build with 8 Man-lands and 4 Jace, but didn't like it. It has to few colored sources for my taste and I couldn't protect my Jaces enough.

Tinefols build was very nice. 4 Tarmogoyfs gave me shot against burn, Ichorid and other fast decks, who hadn't alot of removal MD. Against aggro-control decks it was a little harder, because altough I could control them, it was hard to keep my winconditions alive long enough. It did make the ANT matchup easier, because I had a clock, a counter extra and better sweepers which hit the artifactmana.

The Vorosh Still build was great, although I the list felled a outdated... No Spell Snare, because it wasn't good back then. A singleton Shackles wich was decided wasn't good enough.

Now I'm going to a tournament next weak and I need an optimal list... The problem is that I don't know my excact meta. I know there will be a Merfolk player, a Goblin player and a UGr Thrash Player because they are in my team. The rest would probably be quite some Rockish decks, 1 or 2 combo and scrub.

I was thinking of an UBg Counterbalance list so I can fight Merfolk, Thresh and Combo quite well. I don't know wich build is better against the Rock, but that matchup should be winnable anyway.

My questions:

1. How would a Vorosh Still look like today.

2. Wich card should I include in this meta.


EDIT: Oops, forgot my list

4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand

4 Tarmogoyf

3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshare
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm

Benie

[Frid]

Yesterday I won a 32-person tournament with the following list, which is my usual list except for 2 or 3 single changes (you can see my different lists here, I always have had good results with them: http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?creator=Hugo+Lopez

4 Mishra's Factory
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Plains
3 Polluted Delta
1 Dust Bowl
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Decree of Justice
1 Life from the Loam
4 Brainstorm
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
2 Cunning Wish
2 Fact or Fiction
1 Humility
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Path to Exile


Sideboard:
1 Krosan Grip
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Hydroblast
1 Path to Exile
2 Meddling Mage
2 Extirpate
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tidehollow Sculler
1 Tormod's Crypt

THe deck performed quite well and my only loss the whole day was against 43-land.deck, which has been always a headache against landstill. Against the rest I had no problem at all, defeating the rock, eva green, canadian threshold, and drawing the mirror, and then on top GWB survival, death&taxes and ichorid all got defeated by 2-0 except for the finals against ichorid, which logically was 2-1.
I really like this configuration because with such manabase with 24 land and just 5 colorless, and using your brainstorms correctly you never have problems concerning colorscrews (note that ALL my pairings run wastelands, even the rock did, except for ichorid and survival).
I do not like very much such lists with spell snare or counterbalance, I think they are too situational cards and a deck like this should run responses against everything. Spell snare is good against cbalance, tarmogoyf, dark confidant... and all of them are cards that are very easy to handle with this deck, thus spell snare is innecessary for me. Even I found snare totally useless againt combo, because if they're good they always wait to chant/duress before going off, and snare sits there watching.
Also, I think the two basics are needed for sure.
And as my final point, I think the way to beat combo decks is a mix of ethersworn canonist and meddling mage, combined with extirpates and counterspells. In this tournament I played scullers because I expected some mirror matches, but in an unknown and bigger metagame they should be canonists. In my testing against my teammates (all of them have a +1800 eternal rating so I think it is a very valuable testing) every game I landed canonist or mage, they lost. Extirpate shuts off their mystical tutors and counters provide the defense against bouncers. I think it is just a question of mulliganing aggresively into a mage/canonist, or at least into a hand with two bussines spells (fow, cpsell, extirpate, even brainstorm).
Just my two cents, thanks for reading

[miko]

very nice list. i also liked your performances with team america which you called team europe very much.
i will try and test your landstill version. it looks pretty solid.
the only problem i see is that you never had to play against merfolk, zoo or burn. but looking at your sb and deeds that matchup could be pretty good too.

[Frid]

Merfolk isn't really even a bad matchup at all. If they're playing 4 stifle 4 wasteland, it is a rough 50% , the problem comes if they are playing 4 stifles and post board back to basics, then they can give us a hard time. And if they don't play stifles at all, or just a pair of them, the round first match is 70-30 for us, their only real possibility is opening with vial and second turn standstill, and boarding back to basics probably leaves the matchup around 50%. What really can turn the matchup in their favor is the combination of stifles+back to basics. Without any of these two, the matchup is never avobe 50% for them.
Zoo is really easy, the more creatures they play, the easier it gets. Straight RG decks can be sometimes problematic if they draw much burn, but usually cunning wish for pulse comes in time to solve the situation. And burn is a bad matchup, you depend completely of cunning wish, so you have to mulligan aggresively into a hand with at least some manipulation in form of brainstorm, and never play a standstill. Before this weekend I used to run a single circle of protection: red, which together with the sb tutor, the blasts and the wishes made the pairing vey easy post board, but lately I left cop:red out because I haven't been paired against a straight burn deck in some time, but if you fear them or you think you can be paired with them you can do easilly -1 tormod's crypt +1 cop:red, in my last tournament I defeated ichorid without the crypt so probably you don't need the crypt at all.
Anyway I know at least two really good local players here will be running ichorid decks in the next big tournament this weekend (we expect around 60 people), so I will leave the crypt for the moment. And I will also run two canonists instead of the scullers to have serious options against storm combo post board.

[Frid]

Today I did 4-0 in a 12 person tournament (just rounds, no top) with the list I posted above just changing -1 path to exile +1 cunning wish, beating 2 naya burn decks, one tarmomerfolks and one UGBW painters. The deck performed specially consistent against both nayas with the third cunning wish, with a total of 4-1 in matches, which was really the conclusion I wanted to reach today. 3 Tutors for Pulse of the fields + stp + deed + explosives make the pairing completely favorable.
Merfolks was also very easy, without stifle they just can't deal with all your removal, and pernicious is a terrible headache for them if it hits the board. Their standstills are half of the time useless and mine provide 3 extra cards after cleaning the board with deed.
Just some useful information if you want a build that can beat consistently red aggro decks.

[LostButSeeking]

I wish the merfolk lists I played didn't have stifle. I'm sick of that card--messes with my elspeth, my fetches, my wastes, my engineered explosives, my decrees . . . ugh.

[Benie Bederios]

Wow your list got alot...

It's a miracle how you fit it in your list. Your manabase looks quite stable too... Fetching turn 1 Tundra, turn 2 Sea turn 3 Trop turn 4 Tundra again gives you all colours.

I do wonder how many times the basic lands mess it up though. I don't play basics anymore and I like it. If you play around Stifle the opponent normally only has Wasteland. My base doesn't play double white too.

I do wonder how this deck goes against Ichorid, Storm and Aggro-Loam. Do you have any information about that.

Merfolk isn't that hard for me either, allthough my build is quite different. Baiting Stifles is important. I don't play basic lands so I have to be sure I have a Tundra when I need to kill a lord. But 4 Tarmogoyf give me an huge edge game 1. They can't easily remove it. How do you guys board against Merfolk? I normally go -4 Standstill, +4 Engineered Plague. Sometimes I bring in some Meddling Mages too.

@ LostButSeeking

Stifle isn't really a problem for this deck. You have about 17 targets, the opponent only 4 Stifles. Just keep in the back of your head.

Benie

[Frid]

I like playing basics just in case a magus/blood moon hits the board and I have the mana tapped for the hydroblast/stp, which was exactly what happened to me a while ago when I started playing the deck, and it made me lose the semifinals in a 50 person tournament, so I don't want it to happen again :wink: . Two basics also help a lot against back to basics, which with 0 basics is an autowin if it hits the table, but if you have plains and island in play you can tutor up krosan grip with a wish losing just one land in the way, or you can even resolve a deed with counter backup, and then untapping the two basics you just need one extra land to activate it.
And basics also help against price of progress in the first turns, where it really matters because if you reach the late game youre winning anyway, and if you can avoid taking 8-10 damage in your fourth/fifth turn (which surely would be GG directly) by taking just 4-6 and despite having all colors available it is simply better, and these 4 life you can spare can give the time you need to tutor up pulse from the sideboard.
About the pairings you said, against ichorid you even can win g1 if you draw into enough countermagic for their drawers in the first turns, if you get to resolve a wish for extirpate it probably will give you the time to find another wish or just win by yourself. Deed and explosives deal easily with zombies and its tech to activate your mishra using itself and kill it with the deed, together with the zombies, to remove bridges. g2 and g3 you don't use to have any problems with the sb I posted to win the matchup, you sb in all 3 extirpates, 2 relics, 2 mages and 1 path to exile, and sb out 4 standstill, 2 decree, 1 wish and 1 loam.
Storm decks are probably the worst matchup for the deck together with dragon stompy, and if it is an ad nauseam deck with 4 duress 4 chant you have almost no way out g1 if your opponent is a decent player. g2 and g3 you sb in 2 canonist, 2 mage, 3 extirpate, 2 relic and 1 tutor, and you sb out 4 deed, 2 explosives, 1 humility, 1 loam, 1 cunning wish and 1 decree (letting all 4 stp is okay because they may bring in confidants), and with these sb you have to mulligan aggresively into a hand with canonist/mage/tutor, or at least force of will plus blue card plus brainstorm, otherwise mulligan. Extirpate after a resolved mystical is tech, spare them for this. Post board you let the pairing at 55-45 for you, so it is a winnable round after all, but the hardest you can have.
Aggro loam is enough easy to win, they just can beat you by locking with loam+wasteland in the first 3 turns, and even that way you have outs playing fetchands and the two basics and reaching 3 mana for cunning wish for extirpate, and extirpating their wastelands, which you probably will have to do if not that early a bit later. And from there, its an easy win. Their creatures are big but your removal deals with all of them, if you just have one stp as removal at that moment and they play a goyf, do not waste them on it by now, specially if the goyf is not bigger than 3/4, spare the stp for possible next turns confidants, which are much more problematic for you. If they do not play in the next 2 turns and and youre reaching 10 life then you may use your stp on the goyf (obviously you may use it before if you draw another removal spell) Just watch out for devastating dreams, if you have no counter in hand (do not waste them on creatures unless you have absolutely no other way) it can be useful to spare a pair of lands in hand, your brainstorms will also become better. Post sb bringing in 2 relic and 1-2 extirpate for 2-3 standstills and one decree make the pairing even more easy. Watch out for possible blood moons in these games, and try to play around possible grips if you don't get to see their hand with extirpate, activating deeds and explosives without passing priority if possible.

[igri_is_a_bk]

Is there a reason that this deck doesn't use SDT? Does it just not work or something? I want it to, that card is sick.

[Hanni]

Is there a reason that this deck doesn't use SDT? Does it just not work or something? I want it to, that card is sick.

No, there's no reason. Most people just haven't realized that it's the best card in the deck.

[igri_is_a_bk]

Could somebody post an up-to-date UGB list with Garruk? Or am I better off playing UWx if I go 3 color?

[Benie Bederios]

Could somebody post an up-to-date UGB list with Garruk? Or am I better off playing UWx if I go 3 color?

Don't know something like this is floating around on the dutch board... Originally created by Steven( Elf-Estatic or something on this board( sorry dat ik het verkeerd spel Steven)).


3 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland

3 Tombstalker
2 Garruk Wildspeaker
2 Jace Beleren

4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
3 Smother
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
1 Crucible of Worlds

SB
4 Plague
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Thoughtseize

Hopefully it helps. But there is lot to change in this list, like adding Top if you like.

@ Hanni,
Top is a good card and was used about 2 years ago in Landstill and dismissed back then( same as Counterbalance, allthough it got some good results.) The format changed alot since then, especially combo with Ad Nauseam and Merfolk( 2 matchups where Top in shines), but saying that most people haven't realized it is a good card is just nonsense.

Benie

[Misplayer]

Also, this (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=389798#post389798) was recently posted in the CounterTop thread. It's strikingly similar to the list posted above, but opts for CounterTop/Goyf over Plainswalkers/Tombstalker. For what it's worth, I like the CounterTop list much better.

[Hanni]

@ Hanni,
Top is a good card and was used about 2 years ago in Landstill and dismissed back then( same as Counterbalance, allthough it got some good results.) The format changed alot since then, especially combo with Ad Nauseam and Merfolk( 2 matchups where Top in shines), but saying that most people haven't realized it is a good card is just nonsense.

Top in Landstill has nothing to do with formats then or formats now. People just didn't realize its power in this style deck then, and many still don't now. I'm not saying people don't recognize the card as good, but clearly people don't realize its power in Landstill because not everyone runs it, and only a few run 4. Top singlehandly wins games because of the strong redundancy and internal strength that the rest of the deck [Landstill] has as an archetype. The mana investment is of almost no concern for the Landstill player, who almost always has excess mana sources to spare. There is only 1 card you want to see in your opening hand every single game, and that is Top. Top shines in every single matchup, not just a few. I run 4 and am still amazed at how I'm one of the only few who does.

[paK0]

Well, since i picked up Hannis UW list some days ago I gotta agree, i didn't like him at first, but it is soo amazing.

Combined with Fetchies its almost like:
"Pay 1 Life: Draw three cards"

[GGoober]

I went with this list today:

4 Mishra's Factory
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Plains
3 Polluted Delta
1 Dust Bowl
1 Eternal Dragon (61st card)
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Decree of Justice
1 Life from the Loam
4 Brainstorm
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
2 Cunning Wish
2 Fact or Fiction
1 Humility
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant


Sideboard:
1 Krosan Grip
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Path to Exile
3 Extirpate
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Pithing Needle
3 Negates


I went 2-1-1 unfortunately drawing a match with GWB Land-D/Discard/Rock. In general the GB and rock matchups tend to go to time simply because of all the time wasted in recovering from their LD and Hymns. Not to mention Vindicate slows the deck's win-condition down. I'm an avid player of UW Landstill and I'm starting to enjoy 4c Landstill. There's much more raw power that I love in the deck, and I would like to share my experiences with the deck.

I find the lack of Wrath in replacement with Deeds to be tremendously beneficial actually. Deed is faster and controls the board better than Wrath. Good players play around Wrath so Deed does the same in terms of not making your opponents overextend. An inexperienced player however makes Wrath a better card since they're more likely to overextend.

Humility was freaking MVP and I'm tempted to fit 2 in the MD or 1 ETutor as the second copy. I feel that in my latest lists, I'll go with 3 Deeds and 1 Etutor instead of 4 Deeds.

Now, with my emphasis on the 2nd Elspeth and Pulse in the SB, I've found that fetching for white to be more critical than getting GB on the board, hence my motivation to drop Deeds to 4, and possibly run a Scrubland in place of an Underground Sea. I've been so wanting to fetch a Scrubland. This new list is an extended version of UWx (Elspeth) Landstill so the double white is a high priority.

The manabase was right, but I feel that the deck could benefit a lot more from tutoring. I've tried to find place for Intuition in Landstill but never really fit it in. Currently, I think that this build could go for an ITF approach without the full emphasis on Intuition (i.e. Intuition as a wish target), to be able to fetch up the Loam/Ruins/EE engine asap when needed. Here's my new list after today's matchup.


4 Mishra's Factory
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Academy Ruins

1 Eternal Dragon (61st card)
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Decree of Justice
1 Life from the Loam
4 Brainstorm
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Standstill
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
2 Spell Snares
2 Cunning Wish
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Fact or Fiction
1 Humility
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant


Sideboard:
1 Krosan Grip
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Path to Exile
1 Intuition
2 Extirpate
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Pithing Needle
3 Negates

The Etutor main accounts for the 4th missing Standstill, the 4th missing Deed, the 3rd EE, the 2nd Humility. I think the flexibility gives the deck more strength. I am dissatisfied with 8 Counterspell/FOW, and many times the UU on Counterspell kills this deck when facing against Wastes. I would love to play 3 Counterspell 3 Snares, but I can only find space for 2 Snares at the moment.

For the SB, I'm a fan of non-hate bears against combo. With 3 Extirpate and 3 Negates going into the MD, you can always fizzle MTutors with Extirpate and control the game with Negates. Negates > Counterspell in some matchup where getting UU is strained. It particularly frees the mirror and control MU, giving you extra hard counters. Pithing Needle is against vial.decs and Wastelands.dec, which give the deck a huge nightmare. Relic is simply amazing against Dredge/Loam/Thresh/Tombstalker/Goyf, and buys enough time for the deck to reach 4cc critical mass and resolve game-winning spells.

I think that this new list with a focus on Intuition package is going to be slightly slower in terms of how it plays, but would be much flexible compared to the previous lists. You can complain about my 61 decklist but Eternal Dragon as the 61st card is good in ensuring that I never miss my landdrop while avoiding manaflood problems by coming back as a beater. There's some conflicts with Humility, but it provides another recurrable win-condition that many decks cannot handle.

[JRR]

I've been running this deck at local tournaments lately, but I'm feeling like it needs some tweaks. My game is pretty good against Merfolk, Goblins, and Zoo decks, but there are random black disruption decks that have been giving me trouble. Here is my list, I'd like to know what people's thoughts are on my choices. Thanks. Here's the deck:

1 Deust Bowl
1 Nantuko Monastery
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
4 Tundra

2 Engineered Explosives
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Diabolic Edict
4 Pernicious Deed
1 Humility

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
2 Jace Beleren

3 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

1 Life from the Loam
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Board
1 Humility
3 Engineered Plague
1 Pulse of the Fields
4 Hydroblast
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Extirpate

[Xtreme]

I'm running a list similar to the ones listed above. I have 3 counterspells and 2 spell pierces atm.
Thoughts about spell snare vs spell pierce? I'm unsure which one I should use

[JRR]

Spell Snare was a new addition (I finally bit the bullet and bought some). They were definitely all-stars. I haven't tested with Spell Perice yet except against more casual decks, so I don't really have any good info for you there. I am considering switching to a 4/2 splie between Snare and Pierce, because Counterspell is a hard play in my meta, I'm usually forced to be more proactive than I would like.

[Xtreme]

I went 4-2-1 in the finnish national champs with 86 players. I was 1 round from top 8

Here's my list:

4 Mishra's Factory
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Dust Bowl
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Decree of Justice
1 Life from the Loam
4 Brainstorm
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Standstill
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
2 Cunning Wish
2 Jace Beleren
1 Humility
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Enlightened Tutor

Sideboard:
1 Krosan Grip
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Extirpate
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Meddling mage

A quick report:

Game 1 vs affinity

First game he puts down a whole pack of artifacts. I play deed and its gg
g2: Same as g1, he cant find pithing needle

2-0

1/0

Game 2 vs Bant aggro
g1 ends horribly to me drawing all to much land and although I land a humility, he gets there with his 3-4 creatures
g2: He brakes 2 standstills, I get lots of cards and he eventually scoops when I land Elspeth
g 3: He mulls to 5, but I cant find a wincon before its too late, and its a draw. This I hate about the deck. Not saying I hade the control over the game, but with 2 extra cards vs this deck it should doable to gain controll and land a bomb.

1-1

1/0/1

Game 3 vs Panderburst
G1 and G2 he plays eladamri's vineyard and/or magus of the vineyard, and I abuse the mana horribly and win the both games easily

2-0

2/0/1

Game 4 vs Bant-countertop with progenitus
g1 I swords he's threats and manage to get controll with standstill. He scoops when I land elspeth
g2: this was a horrible game. I land an early standstill and he has top + 1 land and cant find mana for 10 turns. I',m not sure If I should have broken my own standstill, but never the less I win with ease

2-0

3/0/1

Game 5 vs ultimate walker
I really am lucky with my opening hands and draws or then the deck is just good, because I find an answer/counter to his planeswalkers, and land my own jace/standstill and win both games. Dust Bowl + loam ets his manabase g2. Allso, when ancestral visions is suspended, standstill really onws the game. He didnt resolve a visions throughout the game

2-0

4/0/1

Game 6 vs survival 0-2
This was the only game of the 7 that I felt I really had no chance. He thoughtseizes my keycards away, then plays witness. In the first game I land humility and thought it was gg, but I then see that it's a rockish type of survival with deed, that blows away my humility. No chance here really

0-2

4/1/1

Game 7 vs ANT
g1 I play stupidly when I thought he was playing show and tell / MUC. ANT does what it does best
g2 I get a canonist from a enlightened tutor which I felt was the best play I made the whole day, and think I'm foolish when I didnt side in the other tutor. I land 2 canonists and 1 meddling mage and they get there
g3 I keep a LOWSY opening hand. Have to say that I had a terrible migrain and if I had been thinking more clearly I would have dumped the hand.
Have to say to hes defence that he opens up with duress, but that would not have hit a potential canonist

1-2

4/2/1

Overall I'm very happy with the deck. The only game that bothers me is the survival game. I think I would need to find room for pithing needle.

props
-Jace
-Dust Bowl, which won me 2 games
-Spell pierce was better than I thought

Slops
-migrain
-5 anti-graveyard cards on sb, and the only ones I really used was relic

[thefreakaccident]

BHWC landstill (which is actually what this thread should be titled) is one of those decks that shine in the hands of a good player.

A good BHWC pilot can battle through most metagames, when a poor one can find a way to lose against everything.

This is a deck that requires an extensive knowledge of the game (something that most people lack, although they think they do).

I was fighting with myself about whether or not to post my list for a long time, as it is simply far too complex for most people to be able to play properly.

But I will go ahead and say a couple of things about the most recent lists in this thread, and why they simply do not work.

Jace: I never understood why people would ever run this card in lieu of FoF...
Jace dies... FoF doesn't. All the opponent simply has to do is have 1 threat or 1 lightning bolt (or if you used his ability once, a fire/ice) to kill him.
FoF lets you get a mixture of card selection and card advantage, at instant speed.

Spells with WW in the casting cost: Possibly needing GB turn 3 and then needing WW only a few turns later is just ridiculous. This deck already has troubles with mana-denial, how does this not make it worse?
You already have the best board control cards in the format in deed and explosives, why dilute the deck with anything worse?

Shouldn't standstill and deed both always be four ofs?

I mean, they're the powerhouses of the deck, aren't they? How could anyone ever consider cutting their numbers to anything less than four?
I just don't get it.

Anyways, I guess I just don't see why not to play BHWC, I mean it does happen to rape the current Tier one, doesn't it? With plenty of spot removal and mass-removal, creatures can't possibly be an issue, and with countermagic for dangerous burn spells (like PoP, or maybe just regular burn spells), how can you lose? I don't know.

And against merfolk... Less and less builds are running stifle nowadays. Deed just seems so damn good its not even funny, doesn't it? It been pretty good for me in testing, but take it with a grain of salt, I mean, just because I can win a MU doesn't mean most people could.

And threshold... Is it even a question? BHWC has ALWAYS annihilated threshold.

So, then that leaves DTWs, like UW landstill and Ad nauseum.
Lets look at this for a second:

Against UW landstill, who has more dead cards game 1? Of coarse they do, with wrath, humility, and standstill.

Against Ad nauseum, well, landstill has always struggled preboard with quick protected combo... But, you do have ways to punish them if they do not combo quickly (0cc artifacts), and you can board in counterbalance in the board mush more easily than UW (more 3cc and 2cc and 1cc cards, and 0-2 4cc spells).

I was friends with Mike Teresi (the creator) and Nick Trudeau (the pilot) when they first started with this deck, and I even remember when Nick took Landstill to a great finish at worlds. This deck deserves to be played much more than it is.

[mattbrownsound]

@ thefreakingaccident Could you post your list?

[Kanabo]

would Thoughtseize work in a ubg landstill deck?

[thefreakaccident]

Well... You have to remember, this is legacy, so everyone's decks are filled with good cards... Which means that if they are allowed time to draw cards, they will get good cards to play again.

Landstill is the definition of slow. You try to slowly squeeze the life out of your opponent with superior CQ and CA, eventually getting yourself to a point where you have a full hand and they have nothing... Then you proceed to kill them maliciously with your manlands.

So, no, thoughtseize is just not for landstill.

[Kanabo]

Ok and how does this list look:

lands - 23
3 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
3 Island
2 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest

Spells: - 31
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
2 Crucible of Worlds
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Stifle
2 Snuff out

Creatures - 6
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker

Sideboard - 15 (duh =p)
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Pithing Needle
2 Krosan Grip
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Leyline of the Void
3 Diabolic Edict

Anything that I should change?

[thefreakaccident]

I just have to say no to that list entirely... I'm sorry, I am not trying to be mean or anything.

But... You should ALWAYS have four pernicious deed. That being said, there are a few card choices that are just not getting there:

snuff out

Tarmogoyf

counterbalance

Maelstrome pulse

Cricible of worlds

Here's why:

The two most common and most important permanents to be able to destroy with pulse happen to be goyf and counterbalance... If you run them yourself, you will eventually find yourself forced to rape your own stuff, which is bad.

Same problem with deed... Low CC permanents + deed= Nombo

Snuff out is simply a no, basically because you are a control deck, you don't want to be losing 4 life to one of your own spells... Life points and time are your ally, not your enemy.

I personally don't like crucible, but it can work at times. I run loam, as it can always come back to do its thing, has synergy with cards like brainstorm/top, and doesn't die to stupid shit like grip/pridemage.

You should also consider a white splash... Swords is the best removal in the format, it opens more SB options, and it gives you the best man-land of all time in Nantuko monastery.

Tombstalker can be low cc, and never dies to deed... with a 5/5 flying body it can race/do whatev... But it does turn on your opponent's spot removal that would otherwise be drawing you 3 cards.

[Kanabo]

ok, but how is my manabase?

[thefreakaccident]

6 basics is actually a lot. I usually say that you should have at least 16 blue sources in landstill.

That said, you could probably cut the basic forest and one swamp for a sea and trop. You should also try and fit the 24th land in...
I know a lot of people see it as 'shavable', but I would rather occasionally get a few too many lands in this deck than occasionally not have enough.

[i_need_the_extra_turns]

Jace: I never understood why people would ever run this card in lieu of FoF...
Jace dies... FoF doesn't. All the opponent simply has to do is have 1 threat or 1 lightning bolt (or if you used his ability once, a fire/ice) to kill him.
FoF lets you get a mixture of card selection and card advantage, at instant speed.


You are absolutly right. Jace is only nice on an empty board. It just often cantrips at sorcery speed ->just an average card compared to FoF.




Spells with WW in the casting cost: Possibly needing GB turn 3 and then needing WW only a few turns later is just ridiculous. This deck already has troubles with mana-denial, how does this not make it worse?
You already have the best board control cards in the format in deed and explosives, why dilute the deck with anything worse?


Well, the point is, elspeth and humility >> format.
But here is the question: Do you prefer 4c non-creature Landstill (which is for me the best deck on the paper, but it struggles often with the manabase) or BHWC?



Shouldn't standstill and deed both always be four ofs?

In BHWC definitely but in 4c landstill maybe not.






And threshold... Is it even a question? BHWC has ALWAYS annihilated threshold.


Thats so true^^.


What do you play as finisher in BHWC? Tombstalker? And how many?

greetz

[Xtreme]

The reason I went down to 3 standstills, 3 deeds + 1 tutor is flexibility. Therea are times when I don't want to see one of these cards. Standstill because of a poor board position, deed because of 3CC.
Although I oftenly fetch a standstill with the tutor, I'we been very happy with the configuration

I think fact is better than jace, but I chose jace simply because of a lower cc.

[thefreakaccident]

I see both of your points very clearly... And here are my thoughts on the matter:

Tutor IS good, but while it can fetch either standstill or deed, sometimes you cannot afford to wait a turn and 'waste' a card. I would rather you find a way to make at least standstill a 4of, because the way this deck works, is right when you have cleared the board you want to immediately capitalize by playing FoF or standstill.

Yes Jace is 1 less than FoF, but he's sorcery speed, and you do want your mana open on your opponent's turn.

My 'finisher' is nantuko monastery. However, I did run 1-2 tombstalker back in the day.

[Tacosnape]

Why does everybody think it's a bad thing if Jace gets bolted to death?

Given that you probably activated him right when he hit play, you're still getting card advantage off him in that he replaces himself and your opponent's still spending a bolt on him.

Jace's unchecked power is why to run him. If they don't handle him, you win. Period.

[mattbrownsound]

So what does everyone think of the new Jace? Definitely seems like it has the potentially to replace the old Jace despite its slightly higher mana cost. The fact that you can brainstorm for free is certainly appealing. The unsummon ability is also a nice addition.

Jace, the Mind Sculptor 2uu
[+2]: Look at the top card of target player's library. You may put that card on the bottom of that player's library.
[0]: Draw three cards, then put two cards from your hand on top of your library in any order.
[-1]: Return target creature to its owner's hand.
[-12]: Exile all cards from target player's library, then that player shuffles his or her hand into his or her library.

[Waikiki]

For anyone who is interested I entered a 40 people online event with UBg landstill.

Went 5-1 in games but I scooped to the guy in 6th round because there would be at least 3 combo players in the top and He has a way better matchup against those.

The list:

// Lands
4 [A] Tropical Island
3 [A] Underground Sea
1 [A] Bayou
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ST] Island (3)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
1 [OV] Swamp
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [ST] Forest (4)
1 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs

// Creatures
1 [LRW] Shriekmaw
1 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [ZEN] Sphinx of Jwar Isle

// Spells
3 [CHK] Gifts Ungiven
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
1 [LG] The Abyss
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [IA] Brainstorm
3 [B] Counterspell
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [OD] Innocent Blood
3 [CFX] Wretched Banquet
1 [LRW] Primal Command

[arebennian]

You feel Gifts is better than Intuition?
For the extra card?

[coraz86]

@arebennian; Gifts is like a FoF that lets you select the cards instead of blindly flipping. It's great in the late game, I have had great luck with it as well.

@Waikiki; congrats on your finish! I really like your list. Sphinx of Jwar Isle is a very interesting choice. How did that work out for you? It looks good on paper, and it isn't something I'd have thought to do, but would you run it again?

Also, did you run a Wish-board (expecting to Gifts for whatever you brought in), or did you run a more traditional sideboard?

[Waikiki]

My sideboard didn't had any thought at all I did not know what to expect so it was more traditional containing 4 offs etc. Most of the time I did not board.

@ sphinx, It was really great for me since people just cant get rid of it and it survives the abyss. Which has been really strong for me.

I use gifts in favor of intuition because it will gain card advantage and Its really a late game bomb like fact or fiction. I do not need to get the engine as fast as possible.

[Tea]

Lands: 25
3 Nantuko Monastery
3 Wasteland

4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea

4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand

Draw: 11
4 Brainstorm
2 Sensei’s Divining Top
3 Standstill
2 Fact or Fiction

Win-condition: 3
3 Decree of Justice

Counter-magic: 10
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare

Board-control: 11
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Engineered Explosives

SB:
3 Krosan Grip
1 Counterspell
4 Negate
4 Extirpate
3 Path to Exile


Why not 4 Standstilll? SDT and FoF do have their merits (and downsides). So as for the draw-engine, I prefer to go for a split.
SDT: I especially appreciate its mana-fixing power, but stupidly, its mana-fixing power gets worse when facing mana denial decks packing Stifle, since Stifle stops the shuffle effects as well. That’s my reasoning for running only 2 SDT.

Nantuko Monastery: It can end the game very quickly; unlike Mishra’s Factory, it can be considered a real win-condition, not just a supplementary one. Coupled with DoJ, I can turn into the aggro role all of sudden and kill my opponent within two turns.

Colored manabase: Well, here I need your help. As you can see I’m testing a manabase without basics at the moment.

Tell me what you think.

[GrimJack]

Im switching my UW Landstill deck to Uwbg. After I collecting data from the last ten or so decklists posted here, Ive noticed that most are running only 5 sources of white (4 Tundra & 1 Plains). Is this really enough for a deck featuring so many spells with WW in the casting cost? Are 7 fetch lands enough to smooth it out when youre ready for WW?

[mattbrownsound]

@GrimJack

A good number of uwbg landstill decks only run 4 white sources. There just isn't room for basic lands. However, in a meta filled with Stifles and Wastelands I don't think even 5 white sources is enough to reliably get WW. This is unfortunate because Elspeth is an absolute bomb and is the perfect win condition for this deck.

[GrimJack]

I wonder if City of Brass or another WUBRG land would help this problem. Of course it wouldnt be fetchable though.

[mattbrownsound]

I wonder if City of Brass or another WUBRG land would help this problem. Of course it wouldnt be fetchable though.

The problem with that is, what lands do you take out?

As much as it pains me to say it. I just don't know how viable UBGW Landstill is anymore. I have yet to find the right combination of threats and answers. It seems to me that the legacy metagame is so diverse that the best approach is to have a proactive strategy and hope you don't see hate. Landstill is the antithesis of proactive by trying to have the answer to every threat in the format and yet lacks inevitability even if you reach the lategame. I would really like to know what other people think about this, as I would love to be wrong.

[thefreakaccident]

Monastery and Mishra can take someone down in 1-3 turns usually.

I think the real problem is that people find the need to water down a already powerful deck.

This deck thrives on simple, and dominates because of it.

I don't care anymore, I'll post my list:

lands//24
4 mishra's factory
2 nantuko monastery
4 tundra
4 tropical island
4 underground sea
4 flooded strand
2 polluted delta

spells//36
4 brainstorm
2 sensei's divining top
4 standstill
2 fact or fiction
1 life from the loam
4 swords to plowshares
2 diabolic edict
4 pernicious deed
2 engineered explosives
4 counterspell
4 force of will
3 spell snare

the sideboard kind of changes all the time... It really depends on your metagame, but I usually include some number of counterbalances and relics/crypts.


Also about the list, you can go:
-3 snare
+3 stifle

[GrimJack]

From your previous posts, it appears you have supreme confidence that 6x manlands is dominate enough as the only win-cons in the deck. That certainly solves the WW problem as there are no Elspeths/DoJ/Humility. I suppose you just sit behind counterspells and a lot of card draw and make sure your manlands dont get plowed?

[Misplayer]

Monestary is a great clock for a deck like this, and you have 6 manlands + 7-8 hard counters for StP if you're looking to apply pressure late game. Countering just one of their Swords is usually enough and if you're going beatdown then you'll have a favorable board position and likely additional counters or non-counter answers in hand or on the board.

I recently and independently came up with a very similar list to the one posted by thefreakaccident (prior to the posting of his) based mostly on the guidelines he had set forth about BHWC Landstill earlier in the thread. The differences are:

-1 Trop
-1 U Sea
+1 Fetch
+1 Dust Bowl

-2 EE
-1 Counterspell
+2 Vindicate
+1 SDTop

and a sideboard of

4 Counterbalance
3 Path to Exile
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Ajani Goldmane
2 Vendillion Clique
1 Spell Snare

I'm uncomfortable about the strain Vindicate may put on the manabase but so far in testing it hasn't been an issue. Ajani out of the side is for Zoo primarily, but boarding for that match is something I'm very unsure about. I'd probably bring in 3 Path, 2 Ajani and 1 Spell Snare (assuming they're bringing PoP) and either leave Counterbalance in the board or bring in 2 for a mid-game security against topdecked burn until I can find Ajani. Standstill seems underwhelming here because you're unlikely to get favorable board position but I feel like the card advantage it provides is too valuable to lose.

Other than Zoo I think the sideboard is pretty tight. My biggest unanswered concern is definitely Progenitus. Perhaps I should be packing additional Edicts sideboard for Progenitus and the burgeoning Reanimator decks. Thoughts?

[Benie Bederios]

Hey fellow's

I did some reading agains in this thread, because I still like this deck alot. I even took it to a tournament yesterday.

I kinda agree to the BHWC aproach of TFA and the build Tacosnape showed a while deck.

For TFA the only thing I don't agree with Fact or Fiction over Jace. I'm a big Fact or Fiction lover, but I still think Jace is the better card in this deck for three reason's.

1) With the massive amount of removal AND sweepers that miss Jace, it isn't hard to protect Jace and Jace can draw more than Fact or Fiction in this deck.

2) It's easier. More in this later, but in short a good opponent will most of the time make 1 pile with answers and one pile with kill-conditions. With the few win-conditions it's a hard choice. Also the lack of bombs( Humility/Moat, Elspeth, Decree of Justice) the Fact or Fiction piles aren't as good as in UWb.

3) It's a win-condition... It's the worse, but if someone can stop all your man-lands or gain alot of life( one opponent managed this against me) Jace can still go all the way with her ultimate. Normally after the ultimate you can chain Standstills to win the game.

Now for the tournament I didn't do enough testing. That's why I had to think alot during the first to matches, and I was twice a turn short from winning in the last turn of extra time. In those matchups I had the upperhand. I did play Jace over Fact or Fiction, but I'm sure with Fact or Fiction I had even more problem finishing the games in time, because my opponent had to think which piles to make and I have to choose. In UWb make cards like Humility and Elspeth the choices for me and my opponent a little easier, but choosing between your man-lands or removal is a very though choice.

Now I'm testing to play the deck as fast as possible without making mistakes, but I was wondering if I could do something about the win-conditions.

The last tournament I played Tacosnapes manabase:

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand( Could also be the ZEN. blue duals, but I only own the old ones)
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Mutavault

It was too slow, going to time twice and ending the other 4 matches with +- 5 minutes on the clock How much faster is the Nantuko Monastery? Some opponents already boarded in GY hate against me( quite some dead cards MD and they feared Academy Ruins and Life from the Loam.)

I'm also thinking of reintroducing Tarmogoyf to the deck as finisher. Maybe as SB-slot to finish G2 when the opponent boared out quite some removal.

Can someon help me?

- Benie

PS. The fun part of this deck is that it absolutly slaughter Aggro-Loam, even with zero basic lands.

[klaus]

Killcons..

with 8 manlands I don't see why you shouold not be able to win on time (I still think 8 colorless sources are at least 1 too many).

-1 Mutavault
+1 Monastery
should be good.

[thefreakaccident]

From your previous posts, it appears you have supreme confidence that 6x manlands is dominate enough as the only win-cons in the deck. That certainly solves the WW problem as there are no Elspeths/DoJ/Humility. I suppose you just sit behind counterspells and a lot of card draw and make sure your manlands dont get plowed?

You pretty much just get board control, set up some draw, then go for the beats... That's usually how it goes... And of coarse, you can always sit behind a wall of counters sometimes.

[Tea]

There are some things I don't understand.

Everyone says that the manabase is the weakness of deck, but almost every deck posted here runs a large amount of off-color lands, even more than in 3 color builds. (8 off-color lands?!)

Why isn't Decree of Justice an auto-include? In 3 color builds it is an auto-include.
As you almost always cycle it, you don't have to care about the double WW in the casting costs.
Keeping in mind that 4 color builds lack Elspeth as a win-condition, I see DoJ by far as the best win-condition available to the deck.

[Benie Bederios]

I never said that the weakness of 4-C Landstill was it's manabase.

Look at the manabase I played last tournament( posted by Tacosnape)

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Mutavault

This manabase has 16 blue, 11 black, 11 white, 10 green sources.

The 3 CC manabase has

4 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
2 Island
2 Plains
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
1 Eternal Dragon

This deck has 14 Blue, 14 white, 9 black sources. Without the need of double white, so it's actually easier to get the right colours for the 4-C Landstill.

4-CC has more problems with Wasteland and Stifles, but only together. You can play quite good around one of them. It's also very easy to get the removed colours back if you have a fetch... The only real other problem is recurring Wasteland.

About Decree of Justice, I would like to play it, but don't know what to cut for it.

TFA, do you play exceptionally fast? How often do you go into time? I didn notice that Life from the Loam helps alot for this deck in recurring man-lands though. Problem is I can't find room for more than 1.

- Benie

[malden]

Monastery and Mishra can take someone down in 1-3 turns usually.

I think the real problem is that people find the need to water down a already powerful deck.

This deck thrives on simple, and dominates because of it.

I don't care anymore, I'll post my list:

lands//24
4 mishra's factory
2 nantuko monastery
4 tundra
4 tropical island
4 underground sea
4 flooded strand
2 polluted delta

spells//36
4 brainstorm
2 sensei's divining top
4 standstill
2 fact or fiction
1 life from the loam
4 swords to plowshares
2 diabolic edict
4 pernicious deed
2 engineered explosives
4 counterspell
4 force of will
3 spell snare

the sideboard kind of changes all the time... It really depends on your metagame, but I usually include some number of counterbalances and relics/crypts.


Also about the list, you can go:
-3 snare
+3 stifle

Thank you for posting this list. I have been wanting to play a boiled down simplified list since I did not enjoy adding the extra win cons such as Elspeth, Eternal Dragon, and Decree of Justice. I put it together and ran some test games yesterday at a local shop against BG control, Dreadstill, Elves, and Affinity and just crushed all of it pre sideboard since I was not done making decisions about what I wanted in the board yet.

Love the list and will put it to good use!!

[GrimJack]

I just can't leave this deck alone. Love it.
Ive tested for the last month or so with a lot of success. I'm not a big fan of Cunning Wish/Enligtened tutors though in the long run, and that WW casting costs arent as bad as I feared. (Actually, since you really only need WW for Elsepth, its only late game anyways which I can handle. As long as I get the single W, B, and G early, its fine.) I found that dropping the Cunnings/Enlighteneds opened up some space for me to add a 4th Counter, and 2nd Monastary, which is really nice.)

Finally, I've switched over to Spell Pierce for the time being, in lieu of Spell Snare. This is comepletely 50/50 for me now in finalizing my MD. So anyways, her's my list, I'm open to suggestions, but Im quite pleased right now.

60 Legacy Uwbg Deedstill
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Spell Pierce

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
2 Fact or Fiction/New Jace (Still TBD, probably 1+1)

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
1 Humility

4 Pernicious Deed
1 Life from the Loam

2 Engineered Explosives

7 Fetch Lands
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Nanutko Monastary
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 UG Sea
2 Island/Plains
1 Academy Ruins

15 Sideboard
3 Extirpate
3 Krosan Grip
3 Diabolic Edict
2 Misdirection
2 Meddling Mage
2 Wrath of God

[Tea]

I think in Landstill Spell Snare is much better than Spell Pierce. You have to be able to deal with Tarmogoyf as efficient as possible. You only run 4 StP-effects, Spell Snare makes up for that. Moreover you have Pernicious deed, so you can alraedy deal with Aether Vial quite good.
I think you should run at least 2 SDT. Maybe you can cut a land, Humility.

[Tea]

What do you think of Innocent Blood in this deck?
I've found CC 1 to be much better than CC 2, because you need your mana to activate SDT or to play a Standstill. Moreover CC 1 avoids Spell Snare.
Another option is PtE. However, the manabase doesn't have as many white mana sources as the U/W/x builds. A removal requiring B worked much better than one requiring W.
The major drawback I see is that it's sorcery speed.

[Tacosnape]

Innocent Blood, while good, is just a hair worse than Diabolic Edict, which gives you recourse against Chalice for 1, a way to kill anything stopping Swords (Iona, Progenitus), another way to kill instantly generated attackers (Opposing Factory, Haste guys), and most importantly, the ability to leave a huge array of options open for saying "Draw, Land, Go." It's just generally fantastic. When I ran this deck all the time in tournaments I never left home without 3 Diabolic Edicts maindecked. I certainly wouldn't do it now. Edict's incredible in modern Legacy.

[Tea]

I've desperately looked for a good win-condition and finally found one through the help of this thread: Shriekmaw. At least I hope it proves to be good, but so far I'm confident.
Well, isn't Shriekmaw the perfect win-condition for this deck? Shriekmaw is fast removal that effectively deals with Tarmogoyf. Shriekmaw gets around Spell Snare, Spell Pierce and Counterbalance (although it can't destroy Dreadnought). Shriekmaw is even card-advantage. Shriekmaw is not a tempo-loss when you go for the win, since it still detroys a creature when coming onto the battlefield alive. Shriekmaw is black, so it doesn't have a color in common with Nantuko Monastery.
I've cut Spell Snare, as Shriekmaw also deals with Spell Snare's most important target: Tarmogoyf.

That's my new list:

Lands: 24
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta

3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea

4 Mishra's Factory
2 Nantuko Monastery

Draw:13
4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Standstill
2 Fact or Fiction

23
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Diabolic Edict
4 Counterspell
3 Shriekmaw
4 Pernicious Deed

[Arsenal]

Have you ever thought of using Jace, the Mind Sculptor in the Fact or Fiction slot? Or do a 1/1 split? Jace 2.0 offers you an alternate win condition and some fantastic utility. And if he sticks around? Free Brainstorms while your opponent is under a Standstill = GG.

[mattbrownsound]

My local store just started up some legacy tournaments and so far Progenitus-CounterTop is running rampant (~80% of the field). I think that this meta is perfect for U/B/G/W Landstill. The deck features 8 hard counters in FOW and Counterspell and 3 soft-ish counters in Spell Snare. Also, this deck probably has more MD outs to a resolved Counterbalance or Progenitus than any other deck.

This is the deck that I am thinking about taking to the next tournament:

Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
3 Diabolic Edict
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares

Enchantments
2 Humility
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Standstill

Artifacts
2 Engineered Explosives

Planeswalkers
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands
1 Academy Ruins
2 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Nantuko Monastery
2 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
3 Underground Sea

So my question is this: If you had to tune U/B/G/W Landstill specifically to beat Progenitus-CounterTop, how would you build it?

[HPB_Eggo]

So my question is this: If you had to tune U/B/G/W Landstill specifically to beat Progenitus-CounterTop, how would you build it?

Run the full playset of Spell Snare for 'goyf and Counterbalance. Perish should be in the SB or, if you feel really confident about your meta analysis, MD, as it will act as a WoG for only three mana. Beyond that, there's not much more to be done, besides maybe running MD Grips if you really feel it necessary. Maybe Pulse of the Fields to act as pseudo-removal would be good, but I'm not sure how much so against Countertop.

[Arsenal]

Is 4x Leyline of the Void worth running to combat graveyard based decks or is a more varied approach the better course of action?

Like, you could either go 4x Leyline of the Void or 2x Ravenous Trap, 1x Faerie Macabre, 1x Tormod's Crypt. Something like that?

[Benie Bederios]

@mattbrownsound

Dunno, it seems that Ubwg Landstill has a good matchup against Countertop anyway, I wouldn't change to much. Your list looks solid, I would only remove the Academy Ruins for another coloured land or a Mutavault or something. I don't like Academy Ruins very much as one off, without being able to tutor it. For the rest is HPB_Eggo right. I wouldn't run Grips in the MD, if you want additional answers to a resolved CB I would play more Engineered Explosives.

@ Aresnal

I wouldn't run Leyline of the Void as GY hate. It's quite good against Ichorid, but not easily castable, if a Reanimator boucnes it. Other decks, most likely board in Krosan Grip (even against my version, which only runs Mishra's Factory as target) to kill it.

I play as GY hate 4 Relic of Progenitus and 3 Extirpate and I like it quite much. I don't play Nantuko Monastry so I don't mind removing my own GY.

-Benie-

[Arsenal]

This is my UGB build for reference (borrowed heavily from an old Tacosnape build):

4 Mishra's Factory
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
2 Island
2 Wasteland
1 Tolaria West
1 Academy Ruins

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Life from the Loam

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill

4 Spell Snare
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

4 Innocent Blood
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Engineered Explosives

Sideboard:

15 cards - undetermined
___________________

I'm not comfortable running less than 26 lands in a control deck that has so many colorless producing lands. In order to maximize Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Brainstorm, I went up to 8 fetchlands, although I'm considering cutting 1 or 2 and running more Islands. Tolaria West helps get the Academy Ruins/Engineered Explosives engine online.

Although I agree with certain points re: Innocent Blood vs. Diabolic Edict, I find myself fearful of not having an out against a Turn 1 creature on the draw. Although Goblins has seen a decrease, it still is prevelant enough to prepare for, and then you also have to consider random stuff like Turn 1 Ritual -> Specter, Turn 1 Progenitus (Dream Halls broken hand), etc. Also, I like having an answer to these things when I'm on the play while having Spell Snare/Brainstorm mana open for the opponent's next turn.

[wmagzoo7]

@mattbrownsound: I like your list a lot and may test/tweak it a bit to play at local tournaments but am wondering about a few cards such as Humility and Diabolic Edict. Humility seems pretty solid but would seemingly make it much harder for you to win, as well as not doing enough in my opinion. Diabolic Edict also seems a bit situational for my liking though it may be necessary now that Reanimator is a big player in the metagame. One suggestion that may be beneficial to the deck is Moat which could be a big catchall that plays a similar role of humility except that it actually stops the creatures indefinitely.

[Tinefol]

A least I've been running the last time I've played the deck (like nearly a year ago). The only thing that got changed is the Belerens replaced with Mind-Sculptors. These put the deck on a whole new level of awesomeness. I believe the deck to be a really solid choice now. Sideboard should be dedicated to combo and gravehate.

// Lands
3 [R] Tundra
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [JU] Nantuko Monastery
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
4 [R] Underground Sea

// Creatures
1 [LRW] Shriekmaw

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [ST] Counterspell
4 [MM] Brainstorm
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
4 [OD] Standstill
2 [BD] Diabolic Edict
3 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 [DIS] Crime/Punishment
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam

[chmoro]

hi all,
I have played the 4C landstill in many tournaments, but, for small tournaments, where rounds are 40min, I usually can't finish the games. These leads to many draws. Don't u have the same problem?
By the moment I'm trying to make the deck a bit faster, playing red instead of black, with fire/ice in MD and firespout in SB, with tarmogoyf and without humility. I have been testing it for some days in MWS and it works great.
What do u think?

I'll also test this version today.