[Deck] UBGx Landstill [Archive] - Page 6

arcannys

11-20-2011, 07:58 AM

Hey there,

I've been working on BUG landstill again since mental misstep was banned and new liliana was released.
I've been only able to play it on 2 tournaments since my teammate was Q'd for worlds and took away all my pool (one of the national teammates was playing BUG controll in the legacy portion and they had anyone else to borrow cards from), and ive been playing other decks for the last 4 weeks.

Anyway the very first tournament i played the deck with the new list was a 45-man tournament which i won very handly, although the skill-level was not as high as what im used to face in the regular tournaments i play on (as you might know we have prety big legacy community here in barcelona, and the skill-level is pretty high).

this is the list i played:

// Lands
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
3 [B] Underground Sea
1 [A] Bayou
3 [JGC] Wasteland
2 [5E] Island (4)
1 [R] Swamp (1)
4 [JGC] Polluted Delta
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [A] Tropical Island

// Creatures
2 [ISD] Snapcaster Mage

// Spells
1 [GPX] Maelstrom Pulse
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 [ISD] Liliana of the Veil
3 [DD2] Counterspell
1 [FNM] Smother
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
1 [MBS] Go for the Throat
1 [NPH] Dismember

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate (i dont own leylines)
SB: 1 [DDC] Duress (i dont own the 3r seize)
SB: 3 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 [OD] Ghastly Demise
SB: 2 [RAV] Darkblast
SB: 1 [MPR] Damnation

I wanted to try lilianas along with snapcasters. I didnt get to draw snapcaster very often so i couldn't grasp exactly its power-level in this deck, although i can tell now thats its not at its best in this deck. You dont want him in your opener most of the times, and if you get alive to the lategame you're winning anyway so its not that big of a deal.
One thing i noticed, tho, was that standstill is not as good as it used to be few years ago, you board them out in most of your matches and ive been prety close to losing somes games just because i had to take extra damage in combat to be able to sac deed EOT so i could play the standstill i was holding in my hand for uncountable turns.

The sideboard was something i rlly worked on the night before the tourney. Darkblast is THE BEST CARD in the format. OK, maybe i exagerated it too much, but trust me its SOO powerful right now. Being able to kill snapcaster, vendilion, hierarch, dryad arbour, delver, lavamancer, mother of runes, and a long ETC.. is prety powerful.
Extirpates should haven been leylines, but i didnt own any.
Spell pierce should have been flusterstorm, but yet again i didnt own any.

So here are the changes i would suggest to that first list:

-Remove snapcaster for more removal/counterspells (and makes innocent blood a good option again).
-Add 3rd liliana (trust me she's the allstar of the deck with premision from jace).
-Switch standstill for a more reliable draw angine (maybe visions or acc. knowledge?).
-One thing i noticed (at least on my metagame), is the rise of tempo decks, which makes deed a little bit slow on those MUs, which is pushing me towards sneaking a couple copies of E.explosives for the 4th deed and something else.

As of now, here is the list i would have played yesterday in the LCL if i had my cards back:

// Lands
3 [JGC] Wasteland
3 [A] Tropical Island
3 [R] Underground Sea
1 [A] Bayou
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
2 [5E] Island (4)
1 [R] Swamp (1)
4 [JGC] Polluted Delta
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest

// Spells
1 [MBS] Go for the Throat
1 [GPX] Maelstrom Pulse
1 [NPH] Dismember
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [FNM] Accumulated Knowledge
4 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 [ISD] Liliana of the Veil
1 [FNM] Smother
3 [DD2] Counterspell
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [RAV] Life from the Loam
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 2 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 2 [RAV] Darkblast
SB: 3 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 [MPR] Damnation
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void

Initialy the deck loked like:
-1 loam -1 EE
+1 intuition +1 worm harvest
But i think the format is a little bit too fast for this kind of build
There's no real reason for playing Acc. knoledge over visions, i just have to try them out yet, but in theory its a card you're never disappointed to see/draw unlike standstill and visions (when not in opening hand).

So guys let me know what you think about my builds, which ones you like the most and what changes would you make to fit the current metagame.

Yours,
Marc Samarra.

RJM

11-20-2011, 08:42 AM

I wanted to try Extraction against Snapcasters but ended up not using them even there. I guess I'll be back with four Leylines next time, but do notice RJM that Nihil Spellbomb does count as gy hate too.

Ah, sorry about that. I missed that the Spellbombs were there at all. And yeah, Extraction/Extirpates are alright... But really only the better option if you're running Snapcaster yourself to get the most mileage out of them.

@Marc:

I like your list. And I agree sometimes Standstill doesn't feel like the greatest card right now. I'm not sure that Accumulated Knowledge is filling the seem need though either. But I also agree that I'm not sold on Ancestral Vision being good enough.

I've really been considering some number of Predict as a possibility. It's a decent trick against a number of opposing decks. Hitting their top card after it's revealed for Delver is kind of fun. And you can always use it off of JTMS +2 or 0 abilities, Brainstorms, etc.

Sort of falls in the same bracket as AK, or say an Impulse or whatever.

I've been playing a miser Garruk Relentless in my build for about a month now, and I think it might have a permanent spot. It gives you an additional wincon by pumping out token bodies, and can remove all the same creatures cited as popular right now as well.

With Jace/Factories as our only wincons, we've always been a deck thats susceptible to an Extirpate effect to totally stall us. 1x Garruk Relentless, & 1x Creeping Tar Pit over the 4th Mishra's Factory have been nice fallbacks for my on multiple occasions.

kusumoto

11-20-2011, 09:26 AM

I would say you should get Innocent Blood back in that list. It looks like you will have trouble with early threats. EE is just as slow as deed most of the time.

What's the reasoning between the 1-1-1 Dismember, GftT, Smother? Seems like just using Dismember would be better since you have Deed to catch any leftovers. Most of the time in a deck like this Deed+Innocent blood gets everything anyway.

The thing about Visions vs Standstill is that Standstill affects your opponents play. Visions takes a million turns and rarely makes the opponent do anything differently. The reason standstill is good is because you can stick it after clearing the board and it buys you card advantage from opponents that decide to wait until they think they can break through it. It has more of an impact as a defensive card and that's why it's so good.

How are your turns usually playing out with Liliana? I haven't tried her in any decks. I'm just wondering what some games have gone like when you got her on the table.

arcannys

11-20-2011, 11:22 AM

Im totaly aware why standstill is good and how to play with it, the thing is there aren't any "oldschool" aggro decks which u can wrath and then play standstill and just finish the game. Nowadays most of the field is composed by Threshold decks, ANT combo decks, in which standstill performs very poorly. Its good against maverick, but thats a good MU regardless.
Stoneblade is a very skill-intensive MU imo. You board out deeds and standstill and bring in vendilions, darkblasts and seizes and grind out the game. Liliana is very powerful too.
The thing, is that you dont want standstill in your hand when your opponent is playing delver of secrets on turn 1, plus getting your standstill dazed and then seeing how you cannot counter their folowup doesnt seem very great.
As you may know, its not good against zoo either, being under a standstill while they're accumulating burn is not great either.

Deed is by definition better than E.Explosives, but its much more slower. Being able to kill a delver/mangoose on turn 2 seems much better than on turn 4 with deed, its more of a meta-call than anything.

Liliana is very powerful, the edict effect works more or less as a tempo play, similar to playing jace and -1 it to gain tempo and then untap with all your mana available.

A normal game would look like, remove their first thread with removal/counterspell, let their KotR resolve and play liliana an inmidiatly -2 it. Then you just untap and have all mana available but with liliana in play which is obviously great.
In the lategame when you have both PW out and loam in your graveyard, you basically brainstorm every turn leaving lands on top and using liliana to +1 and discard a land, you'll then dredge the lands on the top of your library and make a fresh brainstorm. That works more or less as a soft lock, since you'll just kill everything they play and discard all the spells they keep in their hand. Its worth mentioning the great interaction between -1 jace's ability and +1 liliana's ability in case you run out of removal/countermagic.

kiblast

02-07-2012, 09:01 AM

I'd sleeve Landeed again.

a) I used to play Landeed and I loved it.
b) I can play Pernicious Deed which seems a good choice right now ( Maverick, Affinity come to mind.)
c) I want a deck with Wasteland (and possibly Loam) for answering P Fire (again, GWr Maverick).

I tried the following list in the last days. The focus of the list is to beat Maverick and Blade, and to have a decent matchup against AnT and Bant aggro/ NoBant(those 5 are basically the most played decks in my area).

First, the list:

Deck: BUG Jace (http://deckstats.net/deck-1052868-bc488914ff7e013cdfa82ba70abd6f7d-en.html) http://www.deckstats.net/mana/m/u.gif http://www.deckstats.net/mana/m/b.gif http://www.deckstats.net/mana/m/g.gif

//Lands
4 Underground Sea (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Underground+Sea)
3 Tropical Island (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Tropical+Island)
4 Mishra's Factory (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Mishra%27s+Factory)
4 Wasteland (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Wasteland)
4 Verdant Catacombs (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Verdant+Catacombs)
2 Misty Rainforest (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Misty+Rainforest)
1 Island (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Island)
1 Creeping Tar Pit (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Creeping+Tar+Pit)
1 Swamp (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Swamp)

//Creatures
2 Snapcaster Mage (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Snapcaster+Mage)
2 Tombstalker (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Tombstalker)

//Spells
2 Smother (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Smother)
3 Spell Snare (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Spell+Snare)
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Jace%2C+the+Mind+Sculptor)
3 Pernicious Deed (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Pernicious+Deed)
3 Innocent Blood (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Innocent+Blood)
3 Standstill (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Standstill)
4 Force of Will (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Force+of+Will)
4 Brainstorm (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Brainstorm)
4 Inquisition of Kozilek (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Inquisition+of+Kozilek)
1 Life from the Loam (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Life+from+the+Loam)
1 Mana Leak (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Mana+Leak)

//Sideboard
4 Extirpate (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Extirpate)
2 Duress (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Duress)
2 Darkblast (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Darkblast)
2 Surgical Extraction (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Surgical+Extraction)
2 Vendilion Clique (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Vendilion+Clique)
2 Nature's Claim (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Nature%27s+Claim)
1 Deathmark (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Deathmark)

http://i.hbtronix.de/chart_pie.png Display deck statistics (http://deckstats.net/deck-1052868-bc488914ff7e013cdfa82ba70abd6f7d-en.html)

The manabase is designed to fold to Price of Progress, and to reliably obtain BB and UU without much problems. BB is needed for Stalker obviously. UU for JTMS. I cutted Counterspell in favor of Mana Leak because I wanted to fit 5 Manlands and 4 Wastelands. There were 2 reasons for this choice:

- 9 active and useful cards under Standstill means that we can outdraw Stoneblade ( normally plays only 4 to 8 active cards under Standstill).
- I definitely want to answer P Fire and the best way is 4 Wasteland and Loam.

Creatures: Normally you don't see creatures in Landeed (excluding,sometimes, Snapcaster). But I feel that a fast clock is needed as I remember those endless fatesealing games back when I used to play Landeed. I want a real clock and pressure versus Stoneblade and combo decks. This version most of the times clears the board and uses JTMS as an enabler (providing stuff in grave, protection and backup solutions) for Tombstalker (which is doubtlessly a faster clock.)

Removals: 5 spot removal (+2 Snapcaster) and 3 Pernicious Deed. I feel this is enough for most aggro decks. Remember that you also play Spell Snare which are fairly good against Maverick. Innocent Blood is awesome. Firstly because looks beautiful foiled. Secondly because gets rid of Moms and Thrun (again, important targets in the Maverick MU. Innocent is alsovery good if opponent plays RUG Tempo-it kills the fucking Mongoose).

Discard: I prefer Inquisition to Seize for the life loss part. I love the way a turn 1 IoK enables turn 2 Still. Cheap disruption (you can't Force everything). Useful in almost every matchup.

Winconditions: 4 JTMS, firstly. There is no way of playing Blue control with less than 4. I also think that I'd play the 4th JTMS above any other Planeswalker available in color (Liliana of the Veil included). Then, 2 Stalkers. More wincons available means a safer midlate game. I used to hate when you were in full control of the game but lacking a wincondition. Lastly, manlands beatdown ( Creeping Tar is really good.)

Sideboard: always changing, I think that I mostly want 5-6 Extirpate effects; some additional removal against Maverick ( Deathmark or Perish) and some generical answers to Choke and Batterskull (Claim). Additional Disruption and clock vs Combo and control is good too ( Clique and Duresses).

That's it. Let me know, I feel I'm far from a consolidated list and I need your help.

Iron Buddha

02-07-2012, 09:28 AM

I don' like your manabase. In my opinion a control deck with Deed and Jace should always run as its colored manabase:

8 blue fetchlands
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
= 17 lands

Given a good draw engine

4 SCM
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Life from Loam

can apply enough pressure in my opinion, no need for Tombstalker.

kiblast

02-07-2012, 11:39 AM

Thank you for your reply Iron Buddha.

Regarding the manabase, I know the 8/9 duals + 8 fetchlands + 7/8 utility lands configuration is more solid and less subject to color screw. But I like some basics as Burn is a deck that I might face at least once in my meta and there is a huge difference between taking a PoP for 4 instead of 6/8. There are other situations (very marginal situations) where playing 2 basics matters ( Moon, BtB). If I'd cut a land for another dual, I'd probably cut Tar Pit for a Bayou and that's it. I want to keep the 2 basics in for the moment.

Regarding the threats, 4 Snapcasters and Manlands only? a bunch of 2/2 and 2/1 are really enough to put pressure on opponent? I'm not questioning they can't win the game (once you have a decent hand and 4+ mana and popped a Deed you can win with a Grizzly Bear, no doubts) but sometimes a slightly better clock with evasion(4 turns instead of 5-10 turns)would'nt be better? Stalker also kills Elspeth and Liliana (you need one Factory/Caster to survive her -2 though) in one shot, without playing clunky spells like Maelstrom Pulse.

wcm8

02-07-2012, 11:54 AM

I was able to beat Burn with RUG thanks playing 4 spell snare and bringing in 3 spell pierce. Of course, I put them on a clock with Tarmogoyf/Nimble Mongoose/Delver and the games were ended in single digit life.

With BUG you could bring in Tarmogoyfs and some other aggro creatures in addition to Spell Pierces from the sideboard. Just make sure to save a Spell Snare or FoW for their eventual Price of Progress and get some early pressure. If you can't put them on a clock somewhat early, you're going to lose. If you don't want to play a transformative sideboard, I don't think this is a winnable matchup for BUG. Maybe with SB countertop?

If you're seeing a lot of Burn though, BUG is not the deck you want to be running regardless.

zerzab11

02-07-2012, 05:03 PM

MadMaximus

02-07-2012, 05:31 PM

Played this to a 4-1 finish in a 27 men tournament last weekend.

4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
3 Spell Pierce
3 Counterspell
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Standstill
3 Jace the Mind-Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Innocent Blood
2 Ghastly Demise
2 Go for the Throat

Board:
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Thrun the Last Troll
2 Perish
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Life from the Loam
2 Maelstrom Pulse

Stoneblade 2:0
Enchantress 0:1
MonoBlack 2:0
DragonStompy 2:1
CounterSlivers 2:0

Tested a lot against Canadian too, which is a very favorable MU imo. Maverick is positiv as well. I really think it's time to resleeve Landstill, it's a beast :)

Cheers

I'm so happy that you finally picked up a serious deck, Johannes xD
Playing control is just the best thing to do in Magic.

About the list:
- You have 4 Standstills, but no pointed Discard for the first turn, which means you're not going to be able to cast Standstill as soon as turn 2 most of the time. I highly suggest running less than 4 Standstills, my list will feature 2 or 3. Standstill is very often a dead card and you can only pitch it to FOW.
- I really like the counter-suite, but didn't you have a problem with using the counterspells on the second turn (UU required)? I mean, 3 Counterspells are bombastic, but drawn in the mid game they are usually better
- With so much burn or semi-burn running around, wasn't it bad to play no basics? Imo, you could fit in a single island or even an additional swamp.

What does everyone think about his list?

arcannys

02-08-2012, 07:46 AM

I posted this list in the MTGSalvation Forum, and it answers a lot of the questions you guys have asked lately. SO i decided to repost my list here.

Here is the list im planing to play this weekend at a 120+ player tournament.
keep in mind this decks is highly tuned against my metagame which is basicly composed by A LOT of GW zenith, stoneblade, canadian Threshold ans some BUG control.

I'll go through all my card choices and the reason behind them.

first things first, the decklist:

Lands
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Polluted Delta
3 Wasteland
2 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp

Spells
4 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Leak
4 Brainstorm
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Innocent Blood
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Life from the Loam
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Smother
1 Go for the Throat
1 Maelstrom Pulse

Sideboard
SB: 1 Damnation
SB: 3 Vendilion Clique
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Darkblast
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Negate
SB: 3 Nihil Spellbomb

If you have read some of my previous posts, you probably know that i dont like standstill at all in this metagame. It's bad against stoneforge and delver. This lists plans on gaining CA from lilianas and loams, and ultimately from Jace.

Another thing that stands out from this list is the replacement of coutnerspell for mana leaks. The reason for that is the inclusion of lilianas. Since we're runnign 3 lilianas it's mandatory that you have a black source on turn 2 so that you can cast lili on turn 3. Now if you've been paying attention to legacy lately, you'll have noticed that wasteland is the most played card in legacy right now, which makes fetching for an underground sea on turn 2 a very risky play. The safe play is to fetch for the basic swamp and that makes coutnerspell a bad option if we plan on playing liliana. Right now, from my testing, liliana and counterspell cant go in the same deck.
Mana leak is a fine replacement since by the time it's a dead card you'll be winning anyway and allows you to have basic island and swamp on turn 2.

Another thing you might notice is the 3-2 split between deed and Engeneered explosives. Thats because the popularity of delver tempo decks.
Deed can be very slow when facing 2 delvers, since you won't be casting it until turn 4 (assuming you want to play around daze), and the ability to kill a flipped delver on turn 2 that EE provides is very important. Another consequence of that is the return of innocent blood to the maindeck. Today's megamage requires you to be able to kill a stoneforge the turn after it resolved or kill a delver as soon as possible, and there's not a better removal spell than blood when it comes to that.

Notice how this deck is also really well positioned against geist of saint traft, that seems to be growing in popularity lately, with 6 edict effects in the maindeck.

A couple minor changes from my preivous lists are the inclusion of the 4th spell snare, which in my opinion is easily on the top5 best cards in legacy right now.
As for the sideboard goes:
Vendilion and seizes are a must, to help against control and combo.
As i said in a previous post, i never play less than 1 damnation in my sideboard on this deck.
Darkblast is another card i consider to be on the top cards in legacy right now. It does so much against the main strategies in legacy today. And that is why it deserves a spot on my sideboard.

One thing i changed from my previous lists is the swap between hard GY hate as leyline for a more soft one as is nihil spellbomb. The reason being is that i dont expect a lot of dredge players as it'll be the first important legacy tournament with DKA and people will be scared of graffdiger's cage. Spellbomb is a fine card against other decks since it cantrips and provides some value.

So this is basicly it. Let me know if there's something about the list i didnt clear out.

Let me know what you think,

Marc S.

zerzab11

02-08-2012, 11:00 AM

@MadMaximus: I'm very happy too :wink: But SneakAttack will always be the most serious deck ever! :cool: . Btw, who are you irl?

Back to Topic:
I'm really interested to see this deck coming back to the forefront.
Marc I like your list very much and will surely test it, interesting version. But in my opinion Standstill is one of the best cards in the deck, no more Aether Vials in the meta, and 5 cc1 removal make it possible to put it down early.
And for me it's always good enough to put it down turn 3 or 4 as well, so that I can keep mana open for counterspells and spotremoval. Nearly all the decks I played against must break it nearly asap, so that we can't put land after land into play (Top and Standstill is the nuts) and we can get ahead.

Concerning the Basics:
I would love to play basics, but with 7 colorless lands and 5 black cc1 removal I can't find room for them.You want to have U/B turn 1 and UU turn two. Against mooneffects, recurring Wastelands or Back to Basics we lose anyway so that's no reason for me either. What do you think?

Concerning the sideboard:
Anyone tested Tarmogoyfs in the Board? I know they don't play very well with Innocent Blood or Pernicious Deed, but time issues are highly relevant, as well as having a clock vs combo. Most decks will board out their removal which makes Tarmogoyf a perfect unhindered clock. What are everyone elses opinions? Are the Vendilion Cliques enough, should we generally play creatures in the board?

kiblast

02-08-2012, 11:20 AM

Concerning the sideboard:
Anyone tested Tarmogoyfs in the Board? I know they don't play very well with Innocent Blood or Pernicious Deed, but time issues are highly relevant, as well as having a clock vs combo. Most decks will board out their removal which makes Tarmogoyf a perfect unhindered clock. What are everyone elses opinions? Are the Vendilion Cliques enough, should we generally play creatures in the board?

Either 3 Cliques, or 4 Goyfs or 2 Tombstalkers.
For example I play 2 Snapcasters and 2 Clique/ Tombstalker maindeck and 2 additional Tombstalker or Clique in the board. If I maindeck Clique, Tombstalker go in sideboard and vice versa. Yesterday night I tested Cliques maindeck instead of Tombstalkers and I liked them because they provide clock and a decent disruption. Tombstalker is not a disruption piece, it's only a clock, therefore I decided to play it in the side.

arcannys

02-08-2012, 01:53 PM

Concerning the Basics:
I would love to play basics, but with 7 colorless lands and 5 black cc1 removal I can't find room for them.You want to have U/B turn 1 and UU turn two. Against mooneffects, recurring Wastelands or Back to Basics we lose anyway so that's no reason for me either. What do you think?

I think you want to reread the pharagraph were i talk about mana leaks and lilianas. Mana leaks allows you to fetch for 'UB' on turn two which is perfect since it lets you cast all the spells in the deck. It also solves the problem of the 7 colorless lands, since you can cast mana leak off an island and a factory/wasteland. And it even solve the mooneffect and back to basics problem. All this by replacing counterspells with mana leaks. It's perfect :)

Vendilion clique is a MUST in this deck, since it's a very important piece in control MUs to resolve our own Jace, and is crucial against combo.
I'm considering adding 2 thrun in sideboard as well since it's an absolute beating against control MU, specialy against stoneblade and canadian threshold. It kind of solves the big problem that this deck has, which is killing an opposing jace once it resolved.

zerzab11

02-08-2012, 03:39 PM

You're absolutely right, I will try that for sure, but in my version there's just one Liliana 4 Standstill and 2 Top (so finding the right lands might be easier), and Counterspell was always such a favourite card for me, I would be sad to see it go :frown:

So I think no Tarmogoyfs and sticking with Clique is right?
Thrun is an absolute beating when I played him. Let's keep him as a secret tech just no one expects him and thats great :wink:

Einherjer

02-08-2012, 03:43 PM

from Cairo

02-08-2012, 04:17 PM

Either 3 Cliques, or 4 Goyfs or 2 Tombstalkers.
For example I play 2 Snapcasters and 2 Clique/ Tombstalker maindeck and 2 additional Tombstalker or Clique in the board. If I maindeck Clique, Tombstalker go in sideboard and vice versa. Yesterday night I tested Cliques maindeck instead of Tombstalkers and I liked them because they provide clock and a decent disruption. Tombstalker is not a disruption piece, it's only a clock, therefore I decided to play it in the side.

I definitely think Clique has a place somewhere in the 75.

If running additional creatures rather than sweepers, I would think Goyf would be preferable to Tombstalker in this deck. Goyf plays better with Snapcaster Mage (if one is running it). It can be cast earlier in most cases - which is relevant against agro or combo.

kiblast

02-08-2012, 04:20 PM

When youd play Tarmogoyf you end up playing the same deck as I do - BUG Control. I need in order to dinstinct these two decks you shouldnt play any creatures mainboard here. This deck certainly has the stronger power of bringing down the enemy with Counterspells, Sweepers and Discard - but lacks of an efficient finisher - which is not part of the gameplan. If you think it is so - you end up at BUG Control.
But honestly - is Standstill worth it? I mean youd have to answer a T1 Delver or anything, which might not be able at all times. Ofc if youre on the play you can Thoughtseize their T1 and drop a Standstill but still it doesnt sound like a very good plan to me honestly.
What are the purposes of not running Tarmogoyf but running Standstills?

Thanks for answers and Greetings.

Standstill is more of a midrange card.I mean, sure there is the game where your opponent has only one creature in play, and you go for the classic Innocent Blood into Still.But most of the times you should not be in a rush to play it and wait instead for a stable board position. At this point you might think that waiting for a stable board to cast Standstill means that Standstill is win more. But I don't think so; in my opinion Standstill is a great card, this deck can easily afford to play it (but not as automatic 4of anymore) so I don't see why shouldnt run it. It steals ancestrals and buys you tempo when you menage stabilize the board even for a single turn. You can't play Goyfs here because you play Deed. And I'd rather stick with Deed given the amount of Maverick I face.

I definitely think Clique has a place somewhere in the 75.

If running additional creatures rather than sweepers, I would think Goyf would be preferable to Tombstalker in this deck. Goyf plays better with Snapcaster Mage (if one is running it). It can be cast earlier in most cases - which is relevant against agro or combo.

Theorically you are right, but I don't know if I want to play Goyfs in the board when I have Deeds maindeck. Obviously against combo you remove Deeds, but against certain type of control and aggrocontrol decks you may want Deeds in and a fast creature clock of some kind...Stalker is a creature clock which doesn't die to Deed. Obviously you don't have this problem if you decide to straight cut Deeds and play BUG Control.

arcannys

02-08-2012, 05:16 PM

Why are you guys asking about playing discard and creatures maindeck?
If you want to do that, there's an antierly different deck called BUG control or even team america.
This deck can never play discard main deck, since it's a pure control deck. It need all the spells to do its job at any point of the game, Discard spells are a very bad topdeck when you're trying to close the game. Discard spells are not more than a tempo play. They're great when you're planing on killing them with tarmogoyfs, but this deck doesnt have the tools to capitalize on the tempo gained by discard spells. You just play a discard spell and then sit and watch how they topdeck good cards again.
Vendilion is in the SB because its ability, not because i want a beater. This deck doesnt win by beating with creatures this deck wins with JACE and sometimes with factories, like all landstill decks do.

About standstill:
I never said its a bad card, but as you've said, still is more often than not a midgame card, which makes it rlly bad in the early game in the current metagame. As far as my playstyle goes, i dont like to have cards than only work half the times i draw them. I'm gonna try the list i posted some posts ago and let you know how it goes.

rancOr_

02-08-2012, 06:20 PM

I have played BUGstill for a long time and can def. vouch for standstill now. The only reason I stopped playing the deck back then was because of the bad Merfolk MU,which is gone now.. With quite some RUG decks running stifle I feel like standstill is the better option now.
The way the deck plays out its just a war of attrition, some 1 for 1"s and then drop a standstill for the win- or just play it whenever its safe..This is not possible with visions(and stifle is quite huge atm).

Anusien

02-08-2012, 07:43 PM

I think you want to reread the pharagraph were i talk about mana leaks and lilianas. Mana leaks allows you to fetch for 'UB' on turn two which is perfect since it lets you cast all the spells in the deck. It also solves the problem of the 7 colorless lands, since you can cast mana leak off an island and a factory/wasteland. And it even solve the mooneffect and back to basics problem. All this by replacing counterspells with mana leaks. It's perfect :)
I think you're going overboard to fit Liliana of the Veil. I'm all for having sweet mana, but
A) you already have 4 Spell Snare
B) You're leaning on Innocent Blood a little hard
C) Liliana is removal

Your plan doesn't have to be "Stop every single thing they play". That's the point of having planeswalkers as a board-dominating force. Let's say you're on the play. It's okay to let the Wild Nacatl through if you have a Spell Snare for the Tarmogoyf. Because then your Liliana kills the Wild Nacatl, and you Force the Bolt. Or whatever. (Liliana is probably not at her best against Zoo anyway.)

I think you're too afraid of Stoneforge Mystic. 4 Spell Snare aside, Batterskull is a reasonably slow clock; it doesn't do anything until the controller's turn 4 at the earliest. And you're better set up than any other deck in the format because of Pernicious Deed which can kill SFM *and* Batterskull (at the very least, you always get one). Plus, decks with Clique inherently aren't cold to SFM.

You may also be over-estimating Delver. Who cares if you take a hit from it once? Most Delver decks are remarkably short on guys compared to Zoo and short on burn. In exchange, their counters aren't that great against you.

I mean, sure, in a deck without any guys to gum up the ground, you have to play a *lot* of spot removal. But I'm not convinced that those two decks are a reason to run Innocent Blood over targeted removal, especially since less impressive creatures can jump in front. The best reason to run it would be killing Mongese and not eating it to Spell Snare, rather than "OMG MUST KILL DELVER ON TURN 1".

arcannys

02-09-2012, 02:11 AM

I think you're going overboard to fit Liliana of the Veil. I'm all for having sweet mana, but
A) you already have 4 Spell Snare
B) You're leaning on Innocent Blood a little hard
C) Liliana is removal

Your plan doesn't have to be "Stop every single thing they play". That's the point of having planeswalkers as a board-dominating force. Let's say you're on the play. It's okay to let the Wild Nacatl through if you have a Spell Snare for the Tarmogoyf. Because then your Liliana kills the Wild Nacatl, and you Force the Bolt. Or whatever. (Liliana is probably not at her best against Zoo anyway.)

I think you're too afraid of Stoneforge Mystic. 4 Spell Snare aside, Batterskull is a reasonably slow clock; it doesn't do anything until the controller's turn 4 at the earliest. And you're better set up than any other deck in the format because of Pernicious Deed which can kill SFM *and* Batterskull (at the very least, you always get one). Plus, decks with Clique inherently aren't cold to SFM.

You may also be over-estimating Delver. Who cares if you take a hit from it once? Most Delver decks are remarkably short on guys compared to Zoo and short on burn. In exchange, their counters aren't that great against you.

I mean, sure, in a deck without any guys to gum up the ground, you have to play a *lot* of spot removal. But I'm not convinced that those two decks are a reason to run Innocent Blood over targeted removal, especially since less impressive creatures can jump in front. The best reason to run it would be killing Mongese and not eating it to Spell Snare, rather than "OMG MUST KILL DELVER ON TURN 1".

It's not a matter of killing delver turn 1, it's a matter of having cheap removal spells that can get around daze, pierce, and snare. Sure you can get a hit or two, but killing delver with blood and leaving snare mana up for the follow up goyf is better than killing delver on turn two with a cc2 removal, getting it dazed and letting goyf resolve.

The fact I'm playing 4 snare it's a consequence of me removing standstill but still wanting to have my blue spells count high enough. Sure, SFM is not a great plan against us, but getting your go for the throat spell snared is really annoying, plus deed goes out most of the times against decks like stoneblade.

You could easily remove one of the mana leaks and one of the spell snares for 2 copies of standstill. As i said before, I'm gonna test my list this weekend and let you guys know how it goes.

zerzab11

02-11-2012, 02:14 PM

Came in 1st in a 28 men local tourney going 4-0-1. Matchups were:

Enchantress 2:0
DeadguyAle 2:0
NicFit (with red instead of white) 2:0
Punishing Maverick 2:0
Stoneblade I.D.

List was the same as last page just for reference:

4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
3 Spell Pierce
3 Counterspell
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Standstill
3 Jace the Mind-Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Innocent Blood
2 Ghastly Demise
2 Go for the Throat

Board:
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Thrun the Last Troll
2 Perish
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Life from the Loam
2 Maelstrom Pulse

Hoping this will become DtB again :)

GGoober

02-12-2012, 02:32 AM

Beast of a list. Really digging the list. Any issues with Standstill vs Maverick? Or do you land the Standstill later around turns 4+ after controlling the board?

Do you desire a 2nd Liliana? Would it be possible to fit the 2nd Liliana somewhere in the MD? Maybe cut out 1 Ghastly Demise?

zerzab11

02-12-2012, 07:18 AM

Happy you like the list, it's been quite some time since I played such a strong deck.

The 4 Standstills are awesome i would not go to less. You can land the Standstill turn two on the Play (against Mother, Dyrad or Hierarch). But normally I wait until the board is controlled what happens to be around turn 4-5. This normally results in both players with little cards in hand, you gaining big cardadvantage with Pernicious Deed and Standstill, landing a Jace on the empty board and fatesealing them into oblivion. In my opinion the MU is easy, just keep your Wastelands for their Grove of the Burnwillows so that they cannot get the lock online (after boarding Life from the Loam helps here too).

A second Liliana might be possible, cutting an Innocent Blood or a Ghastly Demise. But two are the maximum for me in this list. 1BB on turn 3 can sometimes be hard (if she needs to come down fast, vs Stoneforge for example) :cool:

Seems Good

02-22-2012, 07:52 PM

Is it just me or does this deck seem superior to BUG Control right now? I've been testing that list and I've been getting mediocre results. If anyone has experience with both in the current meta and can share, I'd like to hear.

Also, what are peoples' thoughts on maindeck or SB Damnation?

igri_is_a_bk

02-22-2012, 10:53 PM

1 Liliana of the Veil
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Innocent Blood
2 Ghastly Demise
2 Go for the Throat

With that much removal, would it be wise to replace at least 2 with the Pulses in the board? I can see the Pulses having more application in the long-run. Sometimes Deed is just too slow and Pulse takes care of the permanent better. You'd still have the same number of creature removal, while upping your non-creature removal.

Kamulium

03-11-2012, 03:38 PM

What do you guys think about Laskin's deck that's apparently crushing @GPIndy? The list and a feature match found here (http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpind12/welcome#9)

I've just picked up the deck so I don't have too much to say. Obviously it's not like the usual Landstills having no Standstill or Ancestral Vision, but it has all the other elements and it seems like the deck has swapped card advantage from draw3-cards to 1-drop discard and some Snapcasters to go with it. Intuition is kinda funky, I have to test that out.

Hanni

03-11-2012, 03:43 PM

That list looks more like The Mind Harvester than it does Landstill.

Goddik

03-28-2012, 02:48 PM

I think standstill is the real deal. With a properly constructed maindeck the new esper deck and rug should feel like byes. Maverick is also highly favourable with the amount of card advantage and sweepers in the main. The big problem is how to make the combo matchup winnable without misstep.

Here is the current list i am experimenting with

2xWasteland
4xMishras factory
1xMutavalt
1xCreeping tar pit
4xPolluted delta
4xMisty Rainforest
4xUnderground Sea
3xTropical Island
1xBayou

4xStandstill
4xBrainstorm
2xLoam

3xJace
3xDeed
3xLiliana

2xDismember
2xGhastly Demise
2xInnocent blood

4xForce
3xCounterspell
3xSpell Snare
1xSPell Pierce

If lingering souls turns out to be problematic i would attempt to make room for 1 or 2 engineered plague/night of souls betrayal in the main.

SB:
2xRelic
2xSurgical Extraction
2xThoughtseize
1xDuress
4xDark Confidant
2xMassacre
2xEngineered Plague

Or

2xIntuition
1xRavens Crime
2xThoughtseize
1xDuress
2xRelic
2xExtraction
1xBojuka Bog
2xMassacre
2xEngineered Plague

Goddik

03-28-2012, 04:02 PM

One idea would be to move 3-4 seize effects main, This would improve the combo matchup immensely by letting us up the disruption in game 2+3. t1 seize, t2 confidant,t3 liliana starts to look like a game we are winning against combo. In that case i would cut some number of snares and the pierce. Postboard the deck would have something like 6-7 discard effects along with confidant and liliana+ potentially extraction/extirpate against the relevant combo decks

The seizes would also help us land standstill and are not completely useless in acting as an extra layer of defense against blood moon, choke etc. I am just a bid concerned about drawing them in the very late game that we encounter. But maybe we are already winning there.

kiwi

04-05-2012, 04:06 PM

Another idea against combo is to play 2 senseis divining top in main deck, and 2 senseis divining top and 4 counterbalance in sb.

Goddik

04-06-2012, 01:49 AM

The problem with counterbalance/top is that we don't actually want it against that many decks besides high tide and storm (where it would admittedly be really awesome). Sneak and tell, Hivemind, Painter are only some of the random combo decks against which countertop really doesn't do much. Given that it takes up so much space and we have a quite weak matchup to some of the above i don't think it is a viable solution

door

04-12-2012, 04:22 PM

zerzab11

04-13-2012, 09:37 AM

It's been sometime since I played Landstill due to me not owning the cards, but I still think it's a very strong choice.

Thrun's are for the faster MU's for example Canadian where a "Spell pierced" or "Red blasted" Jace might be gg for them. If you play your Bloods in the first turn, there is little chance for them to recover from Thrun. (you keep the removal for Delvers mostly)

I don't like Loam maindeck cause it's dead in many Mu's (High Tide, Goblins etc...) or to slow in other (Tempo especially), it makes the deck even more slower and that's the decks biggest issue imo. I board the Loam vs. P-Fire or recurring Wastelands to defend my own Manabase.

Combo is really a difficult MU. I think the best plan is try to keep them from going off until you can land a Clique, optimally followed up by a Standstill.

CookedChestnuts

04-27-2012, 08:44 PM

Zerzab is http://www.deckcheck.de/deck.php?id=24482 ?

Angels

04-28-2012, 11:56 AM

Does UBG Landstill tend to not run any discard spells (Thoughtseize/Inquisition/Duress)?

CookedChestnuts

04-28-2012, 05:39 PM

Does UBG Landstill tend to not run any discard spells (Thoughtseize/Inquisition/Duress)?

I usually play 2 Thoughtseize, 1 Duress, 1 IoK in the board, depending on the meta.

csy

05-02-2012, 01:58 PM

with this meta of RUG and Maverick how do you guys feel about Tamiyo? She seems like a pretty decent lady to include as a potential 1 of in the deck. The draw ability vs RUG and Maverick could be amazing on the right turn. Not to mention her slow untap defensive ability. Im gonna be giving her a try in my playtesting.

Antonius

05-08-2012, 12:21 PM

^^ I feel like you might've hit the bong on that recommendation, Casey.

I put this list together and it feels very powerful

4 Polluted Delta
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins

3 Engineered Explosives
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Batterskull

2 Pernicious Deed
4 Standstill

2 Life from the Loam
1 Ponder

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil

2 Ghastly Demise
1 Darkblast
1 Smother
2 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
2 Intuition

Liliana has alternatively been the third deed or a pulse. All three seem good but when I had 3 deeds there were times where I felt like I had an overload of mass removal and Liliana seems to do (most) of what you want to do with pulse: check opposing equipment. Granted, if they have equipment and more than one dude Liliana is much worse than Pulse, but if you've fallen into that situation then you've shit the bed pretty badly already. Batterskull's been pretty sick; getting it with intuition gives you a win con that can end the game in a reasonable fashion. Perhaps when combined with hydroblasts and Zuran Orbs it can help fix the burn matchup? I haven't even started on a sideboard for this, but I've considered running CBtop out of there (ponder would have to go for a second top) because that just shits all over burn and combo decks, which are pretty soft matchups.

csy

05-08-2012, 01:29 PM

hey, I think she can be good somehow in legacy.

kiblast

06-24-2012, 11:19 AM

Hey! I played UBG(w) control today @local tournament today.
4 Rounds, I go 3w-0l-1id and I lose in top4 to Sneaky Show.

I was playing this list:

Creature [3]
3 Snapcaster Mage
Instant [19]
3 Force of Will
1 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
1 Cryptic Command
2 Ghastly Demise
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
1 Repeal
1 Dismember
Sorcery [7]
2 Life from the Loam
3 Lingering Souls
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Innocent Blood
Enchantment [3]
3 Pernicious Deed
Planeswalker [5]
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil
Land [23]
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Bayou

SB!

3 Extirpate
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Nature's Claim
1 Clique
1 Force
1 Spell Pierce
2 Timely Reinforcements
3 Engineered Plague
1 Flusterstorm

Which is Marc Tobiasch list with few minor tweaks (-1 Pierce +1 Snare, -1 Disfigure + 1 Dismember, -1 Disrupt +1 Innocent Blood). The changes were made to have a better matchup against aggro and tribal stuff. SB is strongly meta oriented.

R1 2-1 vs Affinity. G1 he rapes me with his superfast race and turn 3 Shrapnel Blast ftw. G2 G3 I stabilize at very low life total both games (like 1 or 2 life ) and then I pop the Deeds.

R2 2-0 vs Monoblack Aggro ( lots of discard, but also Bob, Nighthawk, Gatekeeper and Obliterator). I control both games through counters ( Snare was insane in this mu, countering Bob and Tourach) and Liliana. I win both games racing him with Snapcasters and flying 1/1's.

R3 2-0 vs Burn. I see my only Pierce md in the opening hand g1, I counter some stuff, I chumpblock a bit, liliana does her job. G2 I bring more counters and I win both games on the back of hordes of flying spirits.

R4 ID vs Nic Fit.

Top4 Sneak n Show. I lose 0-2 due to
a) Deck set against aggro.
b) g1 She has turn 2 Snt, I force, she forces, Griselbrand, gg. G2 I misplayed (maybe) : I was expecting turn 3 SnT, and had 2 options: cast Clique after draw step or leave my mana open for Counterspell. Since I had 3 lands I was fearing Daze, and I decided to stay mana open. Guess what, she had the Misdirection for my Counterspell but no Daze/Force for my Clique. Well at least she was nice and cute and all while annihilating me ( obviously the Brainstorm I casted in my 4th turn mainphase didn't show any Innocent blood).

I end up winning a foil dci Clique for my efforts.

Since I'll have another tournament Thursday night, I think I will remove the Dismember from the md and add a Smother instead. Maybe I'll add a Negate/ Pierc instead of the third E plague from the sb as well.

--------

Instead of writing a new post, I'll edit this one. Yesterday night 17 people show up at our local tournament. I end up splitting the finals.

I play this list:

Creature [3]
3 Snapcaster Mage
Instant [18]
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
2 Ghastly Demise
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
1 Smother
Sorcery [7]
1 Life from the Loam
3 Lingering Souls
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Innocent Blood
Enchantment [3]
3 Pernicious Deed
Planeswalker [6]
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil
Land [23]
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Bayou

SB!

4 Extirpate
2 Nature's Claim
2 Clique
2 Spell Pierce
3 Timely Reinforcements
2 Engineered Plague

R1: Burn 0-2 Lose
R2: Bye
R3: Combo Elves 2-1 win
R4: Sneak and Show 2-1 win
R5: Combo Elves 2-1 win
Top 4: Aluren 2-0 win
Finals Split vs Sneak and Show.

I end up winning 3 Flooded Strands for my efforts.

So the deck proven to be strong against combo and aggro decks in these 2 tournaments (during the 1st one I played mostly vs aggro decks, during the 2nd basically only vs combo). Packing enough Pierces - I played 4 in total between md and sb- and SnT is not a problem anymore, aggro ( Combo Elf can transform in one of the fastest aggro in the meta, dealing 20+ dmg by turn 4) is easily shut down if you menage to see enough spot removals to survive the early game so you can pop deed.
I'm happy with this configuration, both sb and md.

Nastaboi

08-03-2012, 11:56 AM

Went 5-1 in a 44-player tournament with this:

4 delta
1 tarn
1 strand
1 rainforest
1 verdant catacombs
3 ug sea
2 tropical
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 waste
4 factory

4 Brainstorm
4 fow
2 Counterspell
2 snare
2 pierce
2 snapcaster

4 Standstill
4 deed
4 Innocent Blood
2 Ghastly Demise

3 jace
2 lily
1 loam

Side:
3 clique
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Duress
1 inquisition
1 seize
2 Flusterstorm
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 sower
1 pulse
1 Damnation

The field was not the most competitive, lost against Esper Stoneblade and won Sneak and Show and four worse decks. MD was good, Flusterstorms and Sower in SB not. I'd play more discard and blasts instead, or something against Dredge if you expect it.

Just posting to tell that the deck is still alive, altough UWb with Terminus could be better version nowadays.

Chikenbok

08-03-2012, 04:45 PM

I know this is the wrong thread but since the BUG control thread is deaded I'll post in here.

I've been trying 2 standstill in my BUG list, almost identical to yours but I run MD discard via IoK and Thoughtseize and standstill always feels, well... Kind of underwhelming right now, especially with the format speeding up in terms of pure aggro, albeit, you do have 4 deeds to support a zerg rush.

So my question is, did standstill really 'get there' in games or were there times where you'd prefer it was something else.

Also, I've loved having Flusterstorm in my board - sower got cut a while ago but flusterstorm has been amazing to me.

Nastaboi

08-09-2012, 03:49 AM

Standstill was great. I sided it out in some matches, but never wished it to be something else. It is great against non-vial creature decks, as you can still play it if they have only one drop in play and stabilize with Factories if they decide not to break it immediately. And its four or none type of card, you really have to play four to get one reliably on turn two.

Viridia

08-13-2012, 09:05 AM

I've played BUG Landstill for a few months last year, but everytime managed to go 0-3 or 0-4 drop (4 or 5 tournaments).
After that i sortof gave up for abit, but the deck is just too much fun not to play, so i'm thinking of picking it up again for this weekends tournament.

Now i was wondering if a more creaturebased approach might work better? With mainboard Cliques, Snapcasters and Baleful Strix.
Something like this:'

Mainboard (60)

23 Lands
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Nephalia Drownyard
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
3 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea

10 Creatures
4 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Vendilion Clique

24 Other spells
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
1 Dismember
4 Force of Will
1 Ghastly Demise
1 Go for the Throat
4 Pernicious Deed
1 Smother
2 Spell Pierce
4 Standstill

3 Planeswalkers
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard (15)

2 Flusterstorm
2 Krosan Grip
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Life from the Loam
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Thoughtseize
1 Worm Harvest
1 Liliana of the Veil

Unfortunately i won't have time to test it enough to be sure, so this weeks theorycrafting will have to do.

Viridia

08-19-2012, 06:53 AM

A friend of mine and myself played our new incarnation of the Ubg Landstill lists to double top 8 and myself going top 4 i a 40man tournament yesterday.

Our lists:

Land (24)
1x Creeping Tar Pit
1x Flooded Strand
2x Island
4x Mishra's Factory
1x Misty Rainforest
2x Nephalia Drownyard
4x Polluted Delta
1x Scalding Tarn
1x Swamp
3x Tropical Island
4x Underground Sea

Sorcery (3)
3x Innocent Blood

Instant (14)
4x Brainstorm
2x Counterspell
1x Darkblast
4x Force of Will
1x Noxious Revival
2x Spell Pierce

Creature (8)
4x Baleful Strix
3x Snapcaster Mage
1x Vendilion Clique

Enchantment (8)
4x Pernicious Deed
4x Standstill

Planeswalker (3)
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard (15)
1x Life from the Loam
3x Thoughtseize
2x Flusterstorm
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Vendilion Clique
4x Leyline of the Void
2x Krosan Grip

Went 4-1-1 to the Top 8 with these matches:

UW Control with Snapcaster, Clique, Squadron Hawks and Jitte's , grind out both games with Strixes and Deeds 2-0 (1-0)

Deathguy Ale (B/W Stoneblade) I grind out both games with Standstills and Deeds 2-0 (2-0)

Sneak&Show Win game 1 on chaining Standstills and Counters, Lose Game 2&3 to Sneak Attack :( 1-2 (2-1)

Show Omniscience Win game 1 on well timed counters and Standstills, Lose game 2 when i kept Island, Brainstorm, FoW, FoW, Counterspell, Krosan Grip, Krosan Grip, my brainstorm finds FoW, Flusterstorm and Standstill but i never get a 2nd land Game 3 i win on chaining Standstills with counter backup 2-1 (3-1)

UW Stoneblade with Entreats and Terminus I again grind out games with Standstills, Strixes and well-timed Pernicious Deeds, Game 2 he Brainstorms turn 2 without dropping a land, i Spell Pierce he passes, Brainstorms turn 3 i Counterspell he passes and doesn't find a land untill 2 turns later, when he was too far behind. 2-0 (4-1)

Merfolk ID into top 8

Top 8:

Merfolk Game 1 i get Islandwalked to death by turn 4 or 5, Game 2 I controlled the board long enough to get out Deeds and he scooped when i resolved a Jace, Game 3 he has to Mulligan to 5 which contains Mutavault, Vial, Vial, random, random and i Maelstrom Pulse the 2 Vials on turn 3 with FoW backup. 2-1 (5-1-1)

RUG Tempo, Game 1 he has triple Stifle and triple Wasteland, by turn 6 i played 6 lands and have 0 in play and die without having played a single spell, Game 2 he has double Stifle and double Wasteland + Life from the Loam and has a 3rd Stifle for my fetch when i try to get green sources for my own Loam 0-2 (5-2-1)

Overall we were both really happy with the list, and we just need to make a few minor adjustments to make the RUG matchup more doable.

Chimera87

08-19-2012, 08:54 AM

And the report from the other Top-8-er :)

Monday, the 13th of August, my team mate and friend Michel Theissen sends out a new Deedstill list to our Team Forum for everyone's judgement (the list was also posted on The Source for advice). The new idea: Baleful Strix in our existing Deedstill list that runs Factories and Drownyards and no Wastelands. I look at the list whilst at work and almost immediately go to eBay and order 4 Strixes to have them in time for the next tournament, Saturday (yesterday) the 18th. I fiddle around with the list and later that week during our weekly Team meeting, we combine the lists and decide to run it in the next tournament. We both have lots of experience with Deedstill, so no testing shouldn't be too much of a problem. On Friday we decide on the sideboard (at 11PM).

Saturday the 18th: Rotterdam, tournament at Magic United. 40 people show up. Here's the small report:

Match 1: Steven with UWb Stoneblade with Geists
Game 1: I keep a rather greedy 7 with 4 lands and 3 spells. Two turns later my 2 good spells were Thoughtseize'd by Steven, but he did not put down any real clock. I stabilize later on by using Strixes and Snapcasters together with the one-off Clique and Factories to keep his team at bay (consisting of Snapcaster + Geist) and go on the beat-down. After a long grind, I manage to beat him. 20 minutes left on the clock.
Game 2: He starts off quite nicely and at some point has a Snapcaster and Jitte in play. He attacks and connects: two counters (uh-oh). On my turn, I cast Deed with 2 mana open... it resolves. He attacks me and asks for blocks. I can't block: so no blocks. He then says "damage?". Sure... next he tries to pump the Snapcaster with Jitte counters... ehm how about no? Rest of the turn (after that mess-up) he doesn't play anything and passes. I decide to blow up Deed and he gains 8 from the Jitte counters. By that time there are like 10 minutes left on the clock and I already see that there's no way of winning for him. I drop some beaters in the coming turns and also a Jace to keep him off any threats. When time is called he claims he can still win, but everybody else convinces him it's impossible with an active jace. He scoops it up.
1-0-0.

Match 2: Sebastiaan with BG Pox
Game 1: He gets two Bloodghasts going, which are extremely annoying for my deck to deal with, but I manage to grind him out with Factories after he tripple Sinkholes my sea, trop and factory. He never gets enough lands to really get going. He scoops it up when I land a Jace and tick up the counters.
Game 2: He has some early beat down and discard, but I have more counters then he can deal with and Factories to keep his team of my back. He can't get more than four lands because I keep countering his Life from the Loam while Jace +2'ing him.
2-0-0.

Match 3: Vincent with Omniscience
Game 1: I have the counters I need and the clock I need. He starts off with an early SnT, which I Pierce. Even if it had resolved and he had gotten Omniscience, I would've dropped a Standstill of the SnT to at least stand a chance. However, it didn't resolve. At one point I beat him down to 8 from 16 with Factory + Snapcaster + Clique + Strix. He has one turn to find something while I have FoW backup. He doesn't find it.
Game 2: This basically comes down to him not finding a SnT all game, even after tripple Brainstorm. I think he found an option in the last turn he had before lethal when he went: Brainstorm, I Pierce, he dazes by bouncing his Volcanic Island (his lands were: Volc, City and Petal). I pay and Brainstorm is countered. He then goes: drop Volcanic, sac petal for white. I intervene with: Your City is gone... he agrees and scoops. I assume he wanted to drop his Academy Rector that had in his hand the entire game. I still had FoW, though, so it didn't matter.
3-0-0.

Match 4: Stef with Sneak and Tell
Game 1: I lose to Sneak Attack
Game 2: I win after tripple Thoughtseize and he doens't find another way to win.
Game 3: He has the stone-cold nuts. He's on the play: turn 1, volcanic island. Turn 2, Ancient Tomb, Lotus Petal, Sneak Attack -> I Spell Pierce (found it off the top), he Misdirects (pitching I believe Ponder)... resolves. He has two cards left... My second turn comes and I don't have an answer (I have Krosan Grip, but that's a turn too late). His turn: Griselbrand, draw 7, Emrakul. Game. If he hadn't been on the play or hadn't had the Petal, I would've beaten him easily. Oh well.
3-1-0.

Match 5: Joran with ANT/TES
Game 1: He goes off through my counter-suite.
Game 2: My disruption stops him from doing anything and Clique + Factory + Strix gets there in time.
Game 3: I keep a hand with: Brainstorm, Counterspell, Flusterstorm + 4 lands. I realize now that this may have been too greedy, but it seemed fine at the time. He goes turn 2 Burning Wish for Duress. I have drawn land turn 1. End-of-turn I Brainstorm to keep Counterspell up, since he found Duress (that can only take one counter, keeping both up is required). Brainstorm finds: land, land, baleful strix. Darnit! His turn 3: Duress, taking Flusterstorm, Duress, taking Counterspell... Leaving me with lands and Strix... He goes off with triple Lion's Eye Diamond, Cabal Ritual and Infernal Tutor. Yeah, can't beat hands like that if my Brainstorm doesn't find me answers. Oh well.
3-2-0.

I strongly believed my chances for Top 8 were gone, but decide to go for it and play the last round as well. I meet up with my opponent, Jerko, and we have a little chat. I was 9th place in the standings, he (apparently) 10th, so my chances are best if I go 2-0 to get into Top 8 based on resistance. My opponent scoops and in return I decide to split the price with him.
We have a little test-run and I find out quickly that he's playing BUG Tempo, which I would've beaten probably.
4-2-0.

I end up making it 8th place and entering Top 8. My team-mate Michel Theissen makes it in at 4-1-1!

Quarter Finals: Remko with Canadian Threshold.
Game 1: He has to mulligan and I keep a hand with Island+Swamp+Stuff. He can't keep a creature on the board long enough and scoops it up when I land a Jace.
Game 2: He has a hand with loads of mana denial and I cannot find my Life from the Loam. Around turn 6 he finds his Loam and starts Loaming two wastelands... yeah that I cannot beat.
Game 3: He (so he says) kept a hand with double Wasteland, stifle and Loam. I never get anything going, even with the Loam I find. It doesn't work if you find 4 of the colorless lands in stead of Tropicals (to loam once more). His Nimble Mongoose beats me down after several turns. This really wasn't a game. Oh well.
4-3-0.

Viewing back I can say that the Threshold matchup can use a little improvement, perhaps by adding another Loam to the board and Extractions instead of Leylines (that's a big debate within our team right now). The deck was awesome for an untested list and taking two top 8 spots is just awesome. The tournament was held in a store without air conditioning during 35+C weather, so that was a little rough. However, that did not ruin our spirit and we had a good time!

theBloody

08-20-2012, 05:59 PM

Can you guys explain me why you run Nephalia Drownyard? Thanks in advance.

Chimera87

08-21-2012, 01:43 AM

Drownyard fixes the matchups where Standstills are awesome, but the Fatories don't work. We notices a while back in testing that Factories really often get killed by the mainboard removal, i.e. Swords to Plowshares being the worst offender. Wasteland in this deck is never really used to lock out the opponent, unless you hit your one-off (or two-off) Loam (now in the board).
Drownyard can win against other control decks that drop for example Ensnaring Bridge or Moat. It's also an amazing answer to the new MiracleTop lists as it's very difficult to Miracle an Entreat when there's a drownyard on the other side. There's also the splashdamage it provides against Personal Tutor in Omniscience. I've even managed to mill Maverick and UG Infect out when there was no way for my Factories to beat him down.

Yes, it's very slow but the role it fills is better than Wasteland in the deck. It provides a very nice angle of attack.

kiblast

08-26-2012, 05:28 PM

So today I played this list in a 34 players 6 rounds tournament.

Land
1x Creeping Tar Pit
1x Island
4x Mishra's Factory
3x Misty Rainforest
4x Polluted Delta
1x Swamp
3x Tropical Island
4x Underground Sea
3x Wasteland

Sorcery
4x Innocent Blood
1x Life from the Loam

Instant
4x Brainstorm
2x Counterspell
4x Force of Will
3x Spell Snare
2x Spell Pierce

Creature
2x Snapcaster Mage

Enchantment
4x Pernicious Deed
4x Standstill

Planeswalker
4x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Liliana of the Veil

Sideboard (15)
1x Duress
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Extirpate
1x Tormod's Crypt
3x Vendilion Clique
1x Nature's Claim
1x Krosan Grip
2x Engineered Plague
1x Engineered Eplosives

I go 4-1-1 in swiss

R1: Tempo Thresh (the true list, with Stifle and Fire Ice, not the crappy list lots of players prefer now) 2-1
R2: Zoo RWG 2-1
R3: Nic Fit RGB 0-1 (difficult matchup, becomes rather unplayable post side)
R4: MUD Aggro 2-0 (Is that even a real deck?)
R5: UW Merfolk 2-0
R6: ID vs ???

Top8:
Quarters: Tempo Thresh (player from round1) 2-0
Semi: RB Goblins 0-2

Overall the deck felt really good, and with one more E-Plague in sb Goblins becomes more doable. I might want to add it as Goblins seem to be a choice again.

Chikenbok

08-26-2012, 09:05 PM

Been going back and forth between BUG control and BUGstill but, for reference, here's the *still* list I've been playing with:

1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland

3 Snapcaster Mage

4 Innocent Blood
2 Life from the Loam
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
1 Spell Snare
3 Spell Pierce

3 Pernicious Deed
4 Standstill

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Liliana of the Veil

//Board
1 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Nature's Claim
1 Krosan Grip
2 Flusterstorm
2 Engineered Plague

Terminus

09-11-2012, 08:58 PM

I've been looking for a deck to play, and I thought I would try out some kind of BUG control variant. Scrolling through here, I see that most players are still on the standstill plan. I can't understand playing it, but having never experienced the card outside of merfolk, I may just not know enough about playing landstill. Here are my problems with the card:

1. 8 colorless land in a 3 color deck? In a format where everyone and their mother is running 4 wastelands?
2. The card is disgustingly bad against tempo thresh. The only good i can see it doing is on the play, turn 2, if it resolves, AND they didn't go turn 1 delver.
3. Merfolk is seeing a rise in play, and goblins is already a poor matchup for a deck like this, without running cards like standstill.
4. Tapping out during your opponent's turn 2 (on the play) or turn 3 (on the draw) is never strong when the two most crucial turns of the format are 2 and 3. For example, a show/tell player will gladly drop his combo on turn 3 after you tap out, even through a standstill, since drawing three cards is less relevant when FOW is your only answer. Another example is a thresh player dazing your standstill, then utilizing your wasted turn to set up a protected threat, in the form of a flipped delver/thresh goose backed by countermagic.

I would much rather play a safer manabase, with 4 basics, and no more than 5 colorless sources. Given this, is ancestral vision a reasonable card to play? I know people's obvious issues with it (namely, the fact that it doesn't do anything for four turns), but it does have some upside:

1. Tapping out turn one is far safer than turn 2, and it gives us something to do that doesn't open us up to daze (mostly relevant in the thresh matchup, but some other decks play it as well, like merfolk). I'd much rather go turn 1 suspend and turn 2 innocent blood than turn 1 blood turn 2 standstill against thresh.

2. The format is actually fairly slow at this moment. What is maverick going to do in the first 4 turns that you both care about and can't answer? (Admittedly, standstill is amazing in this matchup, but vision would be great as well). Similarly, thresh can actually be a very slow deck - mongoose takes a few turns to set up, as does goyf. Turn 1 delver is the scariest opening, but can be answered by all of our removal. (Ghastly demise won't kill mongoose and often won't goyf, and a turn three deed needs mana to pop a goyf or goose). The card is worst in combo matchups, but combo makes up a small percentage of the format right now, and, in the worst of cases, the card still pitches to force.

Theorycrafting aside, I really want to try this deck out, so I'll be toying around with it later this week, with vision and without.

TakeYourTime

09-11-2012, 10:24 PM

1. 8 colorless land in a 3 color deck? In a format where everyone and their mother is running 4 wastelands?

Yes, it can be rough sometimes. I agree with you in playing more basics and less colorless sources. Depending on the situation, you can play around wasteland by not fetching until you need to. I also play with life from the loam and/or crucible of worlds in the deck.

2. The card is disgustingly bad against tempo thresh. The only good i can see it doing is on the play, turn 2, if it resolves, AND they didn't go turn 1 delver.
3. Merfolk is seeing a rise in play, and goblins is already a poor matchup for a deck like this, without running cards like standstill.

Against aggressive decks you don't drop standstill until you have established board control. The standstill lets you recover card advantage after dealing with their board. Most aggro decks cannot recover card advantage and rely heavily on early turn plays.

4. Tapping out during your opponent's turn 2 (on the play) or turn 3 (on the draw) is never strong when the two most crucial turns of the format are 2 and 3. For example, a show/tell player will gladly drop his combo on turn 3 after you tap out, even through a standstill, since drawing three cards is less relevant when FOW is your only answer. Another example is a thresh player dazing your standstill, then utilizing your wasted turn to set up a protected threat, in the form of a flipped delver/thresh goose backed by countermagic.

Agreed. Simple solution is don't tap out; play standstill later when you can keep mana open.

I would much rather play a safer manabase, with 4 basics, and no more than 5 colorless sources. Given this, is ancestral vision a reasonable card to play? I know people's obvious issues with it (namely, the fact that it doesn't do anything for four turns), but it does have some upside:

2. Tapping out turn one is far safer than turn 2, and it gives us something to do that doesn't open us up to daze (mostly relevant in the thresh matchup, but some other decks play it as well, like merfolk). I'd much rather go turn 1 suspend and turn 2 innocent blood than turn 1 blood turn 2 standstill against thresh.

Yes, I like 3-4 basics.

I tried ancestral vision before. It's a fantastic turn one play, but the problem is that it's only good on the early turns. Late game it gives your opponent four turns to prep for the spell to go off.

I went up against an opponent at star city that played ancestral vision. I was using standstill. What happened was:
-his ancestral vision was at 1 counter
-my turn, I drop a standstill
-pass turn, he casts ancestral vision, I draw three cards off of standstill, his ancestral vision was countered

Overall I highly recommend standstills in the deck if you're going the pure control route. It might take you quite a few test games to pilot properly, but the deck is very fun.

kiblast

09-12-2012, 06:52 AM

Ok, after some testing and tournaments in which I played decently, I have some questions regarding the Standstill version ( I can't help it I just love Standstill so much).

- I'm pretty much convinced that if you want to play Standstill, you really need to commit yourself to play full control. And you can't play less than 4 Stanstills. This mainly translates in overloading the deck with spot removals, since playing discard is useless, your opponent will just play another threat invalidating your Standstill; and a decent number of mass removals.

Given the amount of Mongoose in this meta, I'm playing the following:

4 Pernicious Deed
4 Innocent Blood
1 Ghastly Demise or Dismember

2 Liliana of the Veil

I guess this is enough to handle most aggro decks in the format. I also play 2 Snapcaster Mage .

The cc1 removals work as Standstill enablers in the early stage of the game. Later, you just recycle them from the grave through Snapcaster after turn 4-5.

Counter suite:

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell

After going back and forth with Spell Snare in the maindeck, I decided it's not worth it to run because basically anything you want to hit with Snare dies to your spot removals and if it doesn't die to removal then it goes under Spell Pierce , moreover, the deck has a poor to even matchup against Show and Tell variants and playing counters that basically don't help you at all versus the combo deck of choice is stupid. Spell Snare is golden in aggro-control metagames, but for decks that can't afford to play our removal suite (such UW variants).

Utilities, card drawing, Brainstorm:

1 Life from the Loam
4 Brianstorm
0-2 Sensei's Divining Top

Where the first is basically a corner stone of this archetype ( you'll always find between 1-2 copies in the 99% of the builds) and serves well in every single stage of the game, building up your manabase, recurring manlands, recurring Wasteland.
Tops are giving me headaches. I know they are amazing and they help you setting Standstills and they filter your draws giving you what you need, most importantly lands vs Tempo Thresh... but are they really worth it considering you almost always need every single mana you have? I'm going to try them in a tournament soon.

Regarding the sb:

Vendilion Clique is amazing, but if I play discard in sb against combo and control ( I play 3 Duress ) isn't just plain better to run Tombstalker ? with the added bonus of being sideable vs Tempo as well.
Also, right now I'll stick Engineered Plague in my sb. Any of you guys has gone back to it? It seems the only way for this deck to finally stop tribal.

Manlands and Wasteland:

2-4 Mishra's Factory
2-4 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit

I found myself switching to 4 Wastelands if I was expecting lots of Grove of the Burnwillows . Punishing Fire basically rapes this deck I think you need to answer it as fast as possible. In all other cases, Wasteland is playable as a 2-3 of giving more space to manlands. Tar Pit is amazing.

I guess this is all right now, please share your thoughts.

door

09-12-2012, 10:30 AM

I'm playing this deck for about 2 years and I decided to abandon standstills long ago. In the format with delvers, thalias and once again merfolks the card is a dead card too often. Also according to my experience this deck doesn't need discard and creatures in the md, unless you want to play Team America.
My last list:

Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Force Of Will
2 Spell Snare
4 Counterspell
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
3 Innocent Blood
1 The Abyss
1 Liliana Of The Veil
1 Ghastly Demise
1 Life From The Loam
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Temporal Mastery
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Darkblast
1 Personal Tutor

Lands
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea

Sideboard
2 Perish
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Counterbalance
2 Spell Pierce
1 Massacre
3 Extirpate
1 Raven's Crime
1 Engineered Plague

I still play spell snare, because against creature decks you need Pernicious Deed hit the table and open your mana as soon as possible. That's why it's better to counter Thalia and Qasali than dealing with them. Also stoneforge mystic needs to be countered, because bw sword is a pain in your ass. Burning wish, phyrexian revoker, tarmogoyf, hymn to tourach, price of progress, dark confidant, 2cc merfolks: these cards are still played in format, so spell snare always finds it target.

I find my removal package to be enough for all kinds of creature decks in game 1. If you are sceptical about the Abyss, than turn it into second Liliana. I play it because it can be put from Show and Tell and I hate drawing multiple Lilianas.

Temporal Mastery serves several purposes here. Partly it replaces standstills, but the most powerfull effect is putting Deed/Jace earlier and untap. Use a plainswalker one more time or an extra attack with factories before opponent can recover. I was surprised in my testing how many wins I got with TM against maverick, and was never dissapointed with it in tournaments.

Personal tutor respectively can find TM when you need it, but also removal, loam and crime postboard. It is especially good with STP, since you can get the tuttored card the same turn.

Counterbalance in sb is a must have, because it's very difficult to win against storm combo and burn/ur-delver otherwise. Also it helps very much against Lands and Reanimator.

Overall this deck is very strong against any UW decks, Maverick and tribal decks. The rug match up is tough and depends on the rug player's hand. It's very difficult to fight stifle-wasteland-daze-delver. But once you kill his delver and have 3+ lands, it's almost impossible to lose.

Also this list can't win against dredge. It needs a minimum of 4 leylines (better supported by surgicals) to be able to do smth. I just havn't seen dredge for a while.

kiblast

09-12-2012, 03:57 PM

Thank you for the feedback. While I do understand and partially agree on your reasons, I'm not entirely sold on Spell Snare.I used to play with CB in the board but now I don't see enugh ANT or UR Burn to justify it. Thank you for the feedback and the list you proposed, seems interesting, I'll give it a spin on MWS.

I noticed you don't run Snapcaster Mage. Have you ever tried it? I think that Brainstorm is good enough to justify playing him at least as Bs #5-6.

door

09-12-2012, 04:52 PM

I noticed you don't run Snapcaster Mage. Have you ever tried it? I think that Brainstorm is good enough to justify playing him at least as Bs #5-6.

I tested this list with and without snapcaster. The results as well as my feelings were better when there were no snaps.
Also I can say, that this deck doesn't really need it. Additional removal is just better than snap. Also there are 2 dredge cards, which help you filtering topdecks. Flashbacking counterspells is not always possible, cause you need 3 blue mana. Moreover, snap is useless if your opponent plays ooze. And as a creature, snap is not worth a cent in this deck.

CookedChestnuts

01-13-2013, 06:15 AM

How has Abrupt Decay and Deathrite Shaman been for everyone? My current list is this:

3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Snapcaster Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Counterspell
1 Darkblast
3 Spell Snare
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Life from the Loam
1 Maelstrom Pulse

3 Standstill
2 Pernicious Deed

4 Jace the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil

1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Wasteland

Viridia

01-13-2013, 06:47 AM

I wouldn't play Deathrite Shaman in Landstill, you really need your Deeds to go off on turn 4 usually, which means you get maximum 2-3 activations out of your Deathrites, plus the fact that everyones creature removal is suddenly relevant.

Chimera and i both piloted the same 75 yesterday in a relatively small tournament (25-30 people orso) going 2-0-2 and 2-1-1 before getting matched up against eachother in our win and in rounds >.>
We decided Chimera got to play the Top 8, so i scooped for him, but it was really a toss-up :)

Our lists:

Maindeck: 60

Creatures: 8

4 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique

Instants: 15

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce

Enchantments: 8

4 Standstill
4 Pernicious Deed

Planeswalkers: 4

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil

Land: 25

4 Mishra's Factory
4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
2 Wasteland
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Creeping Tar Pit

Sideboard: 15

4 Surgical Extraction
3 Thoughtseize
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Flusterstorm
1 Perish
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Life from the Loam
1 Krosan Grip

Our matchups: Elf Combo (2-0) Jund (0-2) Dredge (1-1-1) Sneak&Show (2-1) and Aluren (1-1-1) Sneak&Show (2-0) TES (2-1) Jund (1-1-1) before going 1-2 vs Sneak&Show in the T8.

We're quite happy about the list, with everyone running Abrupt Decays (even Aluren, TES and Elves) our deck just doesn't really care, because everything does its relevant thing as soon as it hits play. Jund turned out to be more annoying than we thought, so we're probably adding in another Perish orso to not lose against Bloodbraid Elf into Goyf/Shaman right after a Deed.

CookedChestnuts

01-13-2013, 03:39 PM

I might try the white version for Lingering Souls. I don't want to put $60 down on Baleful Strixes. I'm sure they're amazing and what the deck wants, but finding them and/or buying them isn't appealing to me.

kiblast

01-17-2013, 06:17 AM

played a very small tournament yesterday, four rounds no cut to top 4/8. 3-1 record.

BUG Delver (Tourach instead of Stifle) I lose 1-2 because during the 3rd game I misplay hard when I have Decay and The Abyss in hand and 4 untapped lands and I'm sitting at 8 life, facing a DShaman and a Stalker, instead of decaying the Shaman, take 5 from Stalker and land The Abyss next turn, I decide that his only card in hand can't be Daze and play The Abyss, he has Daze gg.

5c Nic Fit abomination I win 2-0

BUG Delver I win 2-0

UWb Lingering Blade I win 2-0

Believe it or not, The Abyss is good. Vs. Bug aggro decks and Threshold is amazing since they run 12-14 creatures and they hardly have more than 2 in play at the same time, and once you clear their board Abyss forces them to overextend into it and you can easily punish them with Deed. it's also very good if teamed with JTMS and Liliana. It's a possible answer to Tribal strategies if you manage not to die in early game.

I was playing:

8 Fetchlands
3 Usea
3 Trops
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Factories
2 Wastelands
2 Creeping Tar Pits

4 JTMS
2 Liliana

4 Standstill
3 Deeds

4 Fow
4 Brainstorm
3 Decays
3 Snare
2 Pierce
2 Cspell
1 Cryptic Command
2 Innocent Blood
2 Loams

Sb:
3 Extirpate
3 VClique
3 Infest (trying these instead of E-plague, but didn't play vs. Goblins)
2 K grips (seem too much, might just end playing one )
2 Flusterstorm
1 Deed
1 The Abyss

The deck felt smooth and strong. Later I played vs UW Rip Miracle (2-0). This deck seems to have a decent to even to favorable matchup vs. everything- notable exceptions should be GBr Nic Fit and maybe some other fringe deck. Goblin seem doable with 3-4 E-plague in the board ( or maybe infest, I need to test vs. Gobs).

Viridia

01-17-2013, 08:04 AM

kiblast

01-17-2013, 09:37 AM

Nice performance!

And yes, the deck has very few poor matchups, the biggest one being Burn ;)

Nice list aswell, did you never feel like you wanted Snapcasters or Strix'?
How are the Spell Snares nowadays?
And did you never hate yourself when you had a Bayou in hand with Counterspells and Cryptic Command?:)

I think that Burn is an awful matchup, but honestly I can't imagine building decks and sideboarding strategies taking burn in consideration. You just need to be lucky in the first rounds by not playing vs. Burn and burn players will obviously remain in bottom brackets (unless they are particularly lucky that day). Vs Blue Burn instead your matchup is slightly better (always in their favour though) as they run more creatures (Gguide, Delver, Snapcaster, possibly Vexing Devil) so your Pernicious and Innocent blood have decent utility. Anyway I'd never play not only this deck, but any BUG.deck in a Price of Progress heavy meta.

II never felt like I wanted Snapcasters or Strix. But I can imagine playing a Snapcaster instead of Cryptic Command as that's one of the most interchangeable flex slot and maybe Snappy provides that extra flexibility. Command still remains a lategame bomb though. Strix is a strong creature but doesn't fit this archetype at all.

3 Snares seem just perfect. With all those bug lists playing 4 Bob 4 Tourach 4 Goyfs, X Snapcasters etc...you really want efficient answers like Snare. It's also randomly good vs Price of Progress and Stoneforge. I'd never cut it.

I agree sometimes is hard to hit UUU for Command, and to be honest in the first game VS Bug aggro I wanted to cast it but I couldn't because of Bayou. Again, if you are concerned by UUU you might just cut it for a Snapcaster/Innocent Blood/ Maelstrom Pulse / whatever...Anyway I feel like you need a Bayou just because people play Choke so you can easily have access to UBG under a Choke ( that's where 2 Tar Pits shine, apart from taking down opponent Jtms like a pro. Anyway it's really difficult that your opponents menage to land Jtms before you if you play decently).

theBloody

01-20-2013, 11:42 AM

Hi there. Finally jumped on landstill train and I like it. Local tourney of 19 people, 4 : 0 : 1 result, 1st on standings.

R1: Sneak and Show - 2:1
R2: Merfolks - 2:0
R3: BGw Rock - 1:1
R4: TES - 2:1
R5: UB Reanimator - 2:0

Ad R1: Thanks god he didn't resolved Blood Moon (Duress ftw).
Ad R2: Deed > Vial + Silvergill Adept + Jitte.
Ad R3: He had Extirpate on my Loam. We ran out of time and he survived at 2 lifes. Just Tar Pit wasn't enough.
Ad R4: First game I kept terrible hand and he combo off on turn 2. Second game he was manascrewed which give me enough time. Last game was super close. I ran out of counters, but topdecked Counterspell. Next turn I countered his Ad Nauseam.
Ad R5: Game two, mull to six. Leyline in hand. He wasn't prepared for it.

4 Standstill
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Force of Will
4 Baleful Strix
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
1 Darkblast
2 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam
1 Worm Harvest
4 Innocent Blood
1 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Bayou
1 Watery Grave
2 Lonely Sandbar

SB: 1 Raven's Crime
SB: 2 Spell Pierce
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 Duress
SB: 2 Ghost Quarter
SB: 3 Disfigure

I bet that you will be suprised with list. No Jaces. Reason? I don't own any. So I'm running Intuition package.

Conclusions. I wanted another Tar Pit. Probably will run same split as kiblast. Reanimator resolved Needle on Factory and I did't draw Deed in about ten turns. Intuition package have some issues like grave dependancy post sideboard. But you can tutor for anything you need, like 3 x Deed/Fow and that saved my life several times. I won't gonna change it. Disfigure > Shaman, Bob, Merfolks. I like it. And I need to replace Ghost Quarter with Wasteland in future. Also thank you guys for keeping this thread alive. It helped me a lot.

kiblast

01-21-2013, 11:48 AM

Considering you are already playing Baleful Strix and Intuition/Loam engine, why not Academy Ruins? Recurring Strix seems rather strong mid to late game as you basically can play a cantripping spot removal (this way you annul the b side of putting an artifact on top library with Ruins as well. You don't lose a fresh topdeck.). Also there is really no point in not playing 1 Wasteland md.

NO Planeswalkers seems rather strange but I'm glad you did well with a different/budget version.

Tar Pit is awesome as it takes down planeswalkers like a pro and provides a decent clock when facing combo/control g1 and your cliques are still in the board.

Arianrhod

01-21-2013, 11:59 AM

A friend of mine didn't have a deck that he wanted to play at Jupiter's monthly duel for duals this past weekend. I've had my eye on BUGstill as a meta breaker for a while now, and I decided to brew him a list based off of Kiblast's. Here's what he played to a top 8 finish (lost to 12post in the top 8).

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell

2 Disfigure
2 Innocent Blood
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Maelstrom Pulse

3 Pernicious Deed

4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
1 Life from the Loam

4 Jace the Mind Sculptor

4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra’s Factory
2 Creeping Tar Pit

//SB
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendillion Clique
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Perish
2 Krosan Grip
1 Misdirection
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
1 Jace Beleren

I can't provide a full report, but I know he was very happy with the list, and aside from some minor tweaks/things that need more testing, he is planning on playing it again in the future.

A few words on the board, which is where most of the differences come in --

Jupiter is known to have a heavy combo presence. The Goyfs were primarily for the combo matchup, to give the deck a quicker clock once it had disrupted its opponent. They were also good against control decks who took out all of their removal while boarding, from what I heard from Phil.

The Abyss is one of very, very few expensive cards that I don't own (I have Nether Void, Chains, Tabernacle, Moat, etc....just not Abyss). The Abyss seemed like it was meant primarily for the midrange matchup, so I put in the Perishes to compensate.

Baby Jace was to help win the Jace war vs Esperblade and Miracles. Tamiyo was the midrange matchup primarily -- force them to overcommit to the board, then blow them out with Deeds. The Misdirection was to help vs any Shardless BUG (misdirect the Visions), as well as just generally vs combo decks (especially those who run protection, like Show and Tell or High Tide). I don't think that it was used at all on the day.

If there's any questions on the theory or on the deck construct, I can provide the answers -- but, as I did not play it personally, I cannot tell you specifics of the match. I might be able to get Phil in here to do so, though, if there is interest.

kiblast

01-22-2013, 10:04 AM

Arianrhod

01-22-2013, 10:31 AM

Good call on Pulse as I found myself wanting one while testing. It might end up in the flex slot I continously change. Disfigure seems strong as well, but I'm not sold on completely cutting Liliana of the Veil. I need to test that.
How was playing with 6 colorless lands?
Tamiyo is some hot tech! How was it? I'd love to hear more by your friend on how was playing and sb'ing. Basically I'd love to get a quick report if possible!

I'll definitely see what I can do about getting him in here.

I seem to remember him saying that he boarded Tamiyo in a few times, but she never showed her face, so he didn't really get to test her. Theoretically she seems perfect for the deck, but I think she was something that he said needs more testing since she didn't come up.

Disfigure I know was an all-star. It's just good quick spot removal -- gets rid of Deathrites before they become active, kills Delver, shrinks Goyfs to trade-range with Factory, kills Bloodbraids, and so on.

The trick with Liliana of the Veil is that the way I see it, there are two ways to go about her: you either run her, or you beat her. I opted for the "beat her" plan. She's enough of a known entity in the format that I don't think she's as strong as she used to be. Although, I will freely admit that two other factors played into not running her: I personally dislike her, as my style of playing/building decks tends to be more resource-acquisition and management as opposed to bombing both my opponent and myself back into the stone age; and because I only actually own 1 copy of her, and a singleton just seems bad. But, even with those two reasons aside, I feel that Landstill can profit in the current meta by being the deck that has all of the answers, while Rock/BUG/Jund are all busy keeping each other hellbent and relying on their Tops and Libraries. I like the idea of having cards in hand in this meta. Obviously there's the synergies with Loam which can break Lily's symmetry, as well, but I think that pushes Landstill too far in the direction of the Mox Diamond + 3 Loam builds....more of a Loam Pox with a Standstill shell, than a true Landstill.

One more final word on Pulse -- around my area, a lot of people are adopting bigger threats to go over the top of Abrupt Decay. Call it the Tombstalker problem. I wouldn't run fewer than 2 Pulses in the current meta as a result. Jace is a good answer to Tombstalker himself, but when Miracles is running Baneslayer, and Deadguy is running Desecration Demon, and Junk is running Hero of Bladehold, and so on -- you need a catchall answer for "big" threats.

ShatteredUniverse

01-23-2013, 12:37 AM

I'll definitely see what I can do about getting him in here.

And here I am - long time player, first time poster. My name is Phil Bergeman, and I played BUG Landstill at the NELC this past weekend. This post is going to serve briefly as a tournament report (although it's a bit rusty in my head, as I forgot my notebook, and had to take all of my notes on my iPhone).

Round 1 saw me playing Alex Stratton (he said this was his first big event) on U/W Stoneblade.
Game 1 took nearly half the match, but it basically ended with me losing in the long run, due to losing the Jace war. I brought in my K-Grips and Cliques to deal with his equipment, but game 2 fell heavily in my favor without them. Game 2 saw me land 2 standstills, both of which almost immediately cracked in my favor, and ended in the cracking spell getting countered. By the time he did land a Stoneforge Mystic, I EOT Disfigured it (a card that saw a lot of use in the day), countering his Batterskull, and then rendering his equipment useless by not letting another creature hit the table and live. I sided in 'Baby' Jace for Game 3, hoping to use it to block him from throwing down a Jace, but for the second time in the day, my sideboard did not effect the actual game. It was a tight game, going to time and coming down to turns. Sadly, just short of me being able to pull this one from the fire, he dropped an EOT Snapcaster, equipped it, and swung for exact damage in turns.

btw, for his first 'big' event, he went 5-2, which is pretty respectable.
Match Count: 0-1
Game Count: 1-2

Round 2 saw me facing David Rice, who was running Mill via a combination of both Painter/Grindstone AND RIP/Helm.
The bad news for him was that (or rather as I imagine) I was probably one of the worst possible people for him to run into. Game 1 saw me Abrupt Decaying his Painter, and then I landed a Standstill, which he cracked, leading me to another answer for his second one. Before long, I had him off the top with a Jace out, and started to take control, but manland beatdown got to him first. Game 2 I brought in my K-Grips again, while also bringing in some of the creatures from the board (specifically Goyf - which turned out to be a mistake) and I took an opener with 1 grip and 2 abrupt decays, with a brainstorm, a standstill, and two lands. I land the standstill on turn 2, which he broke on turn 3. After stopping or blasting every combo piece he played, I eventually drop a goyf and a factory to start beating him down. Then I see the Helm, which I immediately gripped. Then his next turn, he drops a Rest in Peace, which I failed to counter. I watched as my Goyf becomes completely useless, but by then, I was swinging with factory to win a couple turns later.
Match Count: 1-1
Game Count: 3-2

Round 3 saw me facing Henry Decker, who was on Mono-Red Sneak Attack.
Game 1 I saw turn 1 Faithless Looting, and mistook it for Dredge, which made my heart sink (this build is pretty-much dead to Dredge). It was when I saw the Ancient Tomb turn 2 that I realized this was actually Mono-Red Sneak. I knew, therefore, that I needed to counter the Sneak Attack when it came, and fortunately had the means to do so for the first one. The second one, however, hit the table, and I lost out on that one. Game 2 saw me siding in Cliques and Mindbreak Traps (In case of mana-spell ramp). He dropped a Blood Moon on turn 3, cracking the Standstill I cast on my second turn. but with all of my lands untapped and an Abrupt Decay in hand, I floated the BG needed to eliminate it. As the game went on, I realized he was no longer on the mana-ramp-spell plan, and began pitching my Mindbreak Traps to Force. Eventually I got in there with Jace (first time I actually got to ultimate him ever!). Game 3 ended in similar fashion, again with me gaining most of my momentum off of cracked Standstills.
Match Count: 2-1
Game Count: 5-3

Round 4 saw me against Adam Phillips on Junk. Game 1 was long and grindy, but he eventually got there with Knight and Deathrite doing its thing. Game 2 saw me side in the 4th Deed, 2 Perishes, and I decided to deviate a little with Tamiyo, but she never came up. My hand was chock full of removal, followed up with a Standstill, which led me to a Jace, and then another Standstill, and from there I overtook the game. Game 3, we went to time, I had him down to one swing left on turn 2 of Turns, Fatesealed him, bottoming a Wasteland (his only way of stopping lethal on Turn 4), only for him to topdeck the 3rd Wasteland of the game (1 had been used up earlier, 1 on the bottom of his deck, and then the topdeck). He wasted my manland, leaving me just a couple points off, but otherwise he would have been dead to rights. The match ended in a draw.
Match Count: 2-1-1
Game Count: 6-4-1

Round 5 saw me facing Eric Pigeon, who was running Esperblade. Game 1, I won the Jace war, and between him and multiple Standstills, Game 1 ended with me Jace-Ultimating him. Again, as was the case for Blade decks, in came the K-Grips and Cliques, and for the second time, I decided I'd bring 'Baby' Jace into this, but he didn't show. A well-placed Surgical on my Forces after I forced his first Stoneforge left me wide open to future casts, and he managed to take that game. Game 3, he Surgicials my Spell Snares (again, a pretty solid pull), but this time, I land both Jace and a couple standstills, and that card-advantage kept me counter-heavy all the way to the end via manland.
Match Count: 3-1-1
Game Count: 8-5-1

By Round 6, I was starting to get excited. I knew that if I made one more match win, I'd top-16 for a dual. This time, I was facing Brian Finlayson-Schueler, who was on Combo-Elves. He was not having a good day, and I could tell just from his facial expressions. Game 1, he had to mull to 4, and when my opening hand showed 2 Disfigures and a black source (and I already knew from observing that he was on combo elves), I pretty-much had the game locked by turn 3, after killing a Nettle Sentinel and a Heritage Druid. He tried to come back with a Glimpse of Nature, which I promptly pierced. Then I landed a Jace, and started to fateseal. Jace hit 13, he drew for the turn, and scooped up for game two. I brought in Mindbreak Traps, Perishes, and the 4th Deed. This time, he only had to mull to 6, but again, I had removal to start, plus a force+U and more. This game was a bit longer, and saw me land THREE standstills, but it also led to my most embarrassing moment of the day. Even after all the research, practice, and testing, it happened: I missed a trigger for Standstill. He called a judge, and since it was a beneficial trigger for me, it was Bryant's call, which he called for no activation. It didn't matter, as he still needed to play more creatures, so it cracked anyways. He emptied his hand, hoping to get set up to combo off the next turn, but my third standstill landed me a Deed, which I happily played and cracked to wipe his board. He drew one more, and then I dropped Jace to lock the game and the match.
Match Count: 4-1-1
Game Count: 10-5-1

By this point, I knew that if I won Round 7, I'd be in the top-8. The final Swiss was against Bryant Cook, who was on Esperblade. Game 1, I managed to hold off an early-game Stoneforge with a Spell Snare into a Force+U pitch, and then I dropped my first Standstill of the game. He stopped playing spells, giving me critical time to rebuild my hand. He then went for it with another Mystic, breaking my Standstill, and it hit the table. In my 3 cards, I got a Disfigure, which promptly ended the Mystic. He went for a hardcast Batterskull, which met a Counterspell. We had a brief counter-war over Jace, which I won, and then I used Jace and another Standstill to tip the scale in my favor. Game 2 saw me bringing in all my favorites for Blade (K-Grip, Cliques, Baby Jace). This time, he got his Mystic off early thanks to a Force+U and then a Pierce for my Force+U (stack was Mystic, Snare, Force+U, Force+U, Pierce). My next draw saw a Disfigure, which ended the Mystic again before the Batterskull could be cheapied out onto the table. Another Standstill, and I saw a K-Grip, which I used on his Batterskull after he hardcast it. Then, with him tapped out (and pierce backup), I dropped Jace, and started Fatesealing. He struck back with a Lingering Souls + flashback (which made me very happy that he got impatient and overextended like that). I Jacestorm the next turn into a deed, and blew out his plan. Jace got up to 9 before he answered it with a Jace of his own, but by that point, my manlands had whittled him away, and the match was mine.
Match Count: 5-1-1 (5th Place)
Game Count: 12-5-1

Top 8, Round 1: Jeremiah Rudolph

...In which my luck in regards to pairings finally ran out. In round 1 of the top 8, I ran into what was literally my worst possible matchup in the entire building. The two games we played weren't even games, and I got stomped 0-2. I tried to spice it up with Tamiyo, but she never made it into my hand, let alone to the table. My day ended there, and I landed at the final ranking of 7th Place, which got me 4 Scrubs (which I instead took as trade-credit to get pieces of the deck I played for myself).
Final Game Count: 12-7-1

All in all, I really liked this deck. I definitely need to tweak it more, as it seems there's others interested in 12Post, which could mean trouble for this deck if it really catches on. If you asked me what the single MVP of the day was, I'd have to say it was a 3-way tie between Standstill (not surprising), Deed, and Disfigure. So many times, Disfigure wrecked a Deathrite Shaman before it came online, or got rid of a Stoneforge Mystic before it could cheapie out a Batterskull. Disfigure was the card that made some of my biggest moves against Junk and Blade all day. Of course, Abrupt Decay was useful, too (but I saved that for other targets in Junk - like Goyfs, Knights, and one time on Liliana).

And now, a couple other comments on what Arianrhod said:

I seem to remember him saying that he boarded Tamiyo in a few times, but she never showed her face, so he didn't really get to test her. Theoretically she seems perfect for the deck, but I think she was something that he said needs more testing since she didn't come up.

Yeah, I attempted it, but she never made and appearance. Nor did Baby Jace, and Misdirection never got boarded in. I guess if the event setting had a higher frequency of Graveyard abuse, I'd probably be looking there for cuts to add some yard-hate.

Disfigure I know was an all-star. It's just good quick spot removal -- gets rid of Deathrites before they become active, kills Delver, shrinks Goyfs to trade-range with Factory, kills Bloodbraids, and so on.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Chimera87

01-23-2013, 08:10 AM

Congrats on your finish, ShatteredUniverse. Also thanks a lot for the tournament report. Perhaps I should start typing these things again ;)

Nice to see that Disfigure worked out for you. I should try this as a sideboard option in the new meta with all the Shamans running around. Currently I've adopted Perish instead... Tamiyo is indeed an interesting choice and seems to be a card that this deck can really use in the grindy games. Seems worth testing.

theBloody

01-23-2013, 08:29 AM

xfxf

01-27-2013, 07:46 PM

I have played a few games with Viridia's Baleful Strix list and it seems to be surprisingly strong. There is a never-ending card advantage which can even overpower Jund's. At first look I thought it would be terrible against combo but to my surprise I've had more success with it against S&T decks than I had with Esper. Considering whether I should take this up as my new Jace deck instead of Esper.

Chimera87

01-28-2013, 01:26 AM

@Bilb_o: Glad you like our list. It's indeed surprisingly strong as you say. We never expected Strix to be that good until we tested it thoroughly. The fact that the only way for the opponent to play even on cards is countering it is awesome...
How do you like the Combo matchup after boarding? To us it feels like we just cannot lose...

The Treefolk Master

01-28-2013, 10:46 AM

Maindeck: 60

Creatures: 8

4 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique

Instants: 15

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce

Enchantments: 8

4 Standstill
4 Pernicious Deed

Planeswalkers: 4

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil

Land: 25

4 Mishra's Factory
4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
2 Wasteland
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Creeping Tar Pit

Sideboard: 15

4 Surgical Extraction
3 Thoughtseize
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Flusterstorm
1 Perish
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Life from the Loam
1 Krosan Grip

I really like your list, but I have a couple of questions:

I only own 3 Underground Seas and 3 Tropical Islands; would it still be possible to play the deck with a slightly modified mana base. I'm thinking 2 Bayous or 1 Bayou and 1 Sunken Ruins (added Choke protection).

The answer to this is probably a resounding NO, but can we fix the Burn matchup without giving up other matchups? Sure, I can slam 4 Chills into the SB, but then I'll die against combo decks.

Also, how's the Goblin matchups?

Viridia

01-28-2013, 11:08 AM

You'll never win Burn, unless you're called Chimera and beat it 2-0 twice.

You really, really, really dont want a Bayou :) We tested with it a couple of times, but having a Factory + Bayou hand makes you cry that you didnt have a blue source in that spot.

I'd probably run 2nd Tar Pit or a Drowned Catacomb and a Hinterland Harbor or Shock Dual in it's place, because you can always still fetch the Duals when needed, but if you're EOT shuffling after a brainstorm orso, you can get a Shock Dual anyway.

The Goblins matchup is annoying. You can often stop the first onslaught, and stabilize, but then they go Matron -> RingLeader -> Haste lord off the top (often paired with Caverns) and you die on the spot anyway. Making sure you keep Factories open and Deeds/Decays ready to pop at all times is very important, as is getting rid of Caverns as soon as you have board control.

Chimera87

01-28-2013, 11:10 AM

I only own 3 Underground Seas and 3 Tropical Islands; would it still be possible to play the deck with a slightly modified mana base. I'm thinking 2 Bayous or 1 Bayou and 1 Sunken Ruins (added Choke protection).
Before we added Wasteland to the mix, we ran 1 Hinterland Harbor and it was performing perfectly. My suggestion would be to run 1 Drowned Catacomb and 1 Hinterland Harbor. We have debated adding Bayou to the list many times, but we just don't. The reason is simple: we never want to have non-blue duals in play basically. You want UU on turn 2 (Counterspell) and UUU on turn 4 (Snapcaster + Counterspell). You also want BG on turn 2 (Decay) and turn 3 (Deed).
You could try Bayou, but we didn't like it.

Also, how's the Goblin matchups?
Depends on their draw. You can outlast them if they don't chain Ringleaders. The matchup is tough at best. Not as bad as Burn, though.

The Treefolk Master

01-28-2013, 12:08 PM

Thanks to both of you,

Damn it, I hate being poor. I'll try the 1 Harbor/1 Catacomb split, while also trying to get someone to lend me the duals I'm missing.

Stupid burn. It does not have a large presence in our metagame, but I always seem to run into it. I usually beat it, but last time it destroyed me 2-0 in the win-and-in round as the last 2 cards in his hand were always Fireblast. I then went full on tilt, lost the next round 2-0, and destroyed any chance of making Top 8. Burn then won the tournament, placing 3 guys in the top 8. Statistically speaking, Burn was the best deck by a mile.

I'll play the deck and try to see if I'm comfortable playing it. I always play control in every format (except for Limited), but its always UW or UWx decks.

BTW I'm watching your videos on Youtube, both decks are absolutely beautiful.

EDIT: I almost forgot. Is 3 Decays 1 Liliana enough spot removal? I'm guessing the plan is to force them to overcommit into Deed through Strix (and Mishra's Factory), but is that always enough?

Chimera87

01-29-2013, 01:46 AM

Arianrhod

01-29-2013, 08:45 AM

The current removal package, according to our way of counting is: 4 Baleful Strix + 4 Pernicious Deed + 3 Abrupt Decay + the misers Liliana = 11/12. This seems appropriate. Baleful Strix basically replaces Innocent Blood at the moment. We also have versions with Blood and Loam+Harvest+Liliana in the main, but they seem less powerful in the current field. Strix just trades with anything and then you're up a card.

Burn is rough, but my record against them so far is 2-1 (5-2 in games). It strongly depends on the Burn pilot. If (s)he aint that good, you're going to win with the correct hand (basically some countermagic + clock, which is doable). However, it's never going to be favorable. The only realistic sideboard options if your meta is filled with Burn and you want to pilot this deck are: Sun Droplet and Chill.

I think you'll do fine for now with two M10 taplands. Hinterland Harbor was a fine 5th U/G dual, so should be fine as a 4th as well.

I wouldn't say the only options. Blue Elemental Blast has been gaining some traction in the meta as a real card for a while now, and it might be worth running. It improves your burn matchup to something approximating winnable, but it also gives you game vs Burning Wish combo decks of all varieties, combating the "other half" of Sneak and Show, Goblins, and so on. I'm pretty sure that as the meta progresses forward, 2-3 BEBs in the board would be a solid choice.

I mean, don't get me wrong, Burn is still terrible. But it's -something- you can do to Burn that has utility against other a wide range of other decks.

Chimera87

01-29-2013, 09:08 AM

Hmm, yeah I forgot about the BeB. It's actually a decent option now, but I don't I'd run more than 2. Also, cutting cards for it seems tough. I can imagine cutting the Grip for it, as the Grip is mostly there to improve the Sneak and Show matchup while also providing another good option against Blade decks.
Against Burn, we currently side in the Vendilion Cliques and Flusterstorms at the expense of mostly FoW and Deed (a combination depending on their build).

theBloody

01-29-2013, 09:30 AM

BEB against goblins is just bad if you aren't playing Wasteland heavy build. You can't kill Piledriver, counter Ringleader/Matron. Some boardsweeper is better choice.

Arianrhod

01-29-2013, 09:33 AM

BEB against goblins is just bad if you aren't playing Wasteland heavy build. You can't kill Piledriver, counter Ringleader/Matron. Some boardsweeper is better choice.

It's a 1-mana Destroy Target Lackey for a build without Innocent Blood.

Chimera87

01-30-2013, 09:56 AM

The problem I don't think is how good BeB is, but what to take out of the board for it. The sideboard is very tight in its current form. It took us long enough to figure out what to take out for a single Perish. We now kind off want a second, but don't know what to cut... Only Pulse comes to mind, but it's sooo good versus opposing walkers. BeB is kind off niche in that it only really helps against Burn and Goblins, while providing some splash damage here and there. The typical slots that this deck runs are all broad answers to large portions of the decks out there.

theBloody

01-31-2013, 11:46 AM

I can understand that you want BEB for multiple reasons and goblins are only one of them. I'm glad that it working for you. I don't know how valuable it is in other matchups, but from my goblin testing I observed that without Wasteland it is just weaker Disfigure.

Chimera87

02-18-2013, 03:58 PM

And another top 4 and top 8 performance can be added to the list of top's. My mate went top 4 on a local tournament 2 weeks ago and I went top 8 yesterday on a somewhat larger tournament.
Matches for me were: TES 2-0, SnT 1-2, TES 2-0, Belcher 2-1, RUG 0-2 (mull to 5 twice, couldn't play around wasteland, he had two (and loam in game 2)), Esper Landstill 2-0 (buddy, we decide to not play and have the better player/deck go top 8). Quarter finals: EsperBlade 0-2 (game 1: draw 6 lands in a row after opponent resolves Jace and Batterskull, game 2: find nothing).

Deck I ran:

Land (25)
3x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
4x Tropical Island
4x Underground Sea
2x Island
1x Swamp
1x Creeping Tar Pit
4x Mishra's Factory
2x Wasteland

Instant (15)
3x Abrupt Decay
4x Brainstorm
2x Counterspell
4x Force of Will
2x Spell Pierce

Creature (9)
4x Baleful Strix
3x Snapcaster Mage
2x Vendilion Clique

Enchantment (8)
4x Pernicious Deed
4x Standstill

Planeswalker (3)
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard (15)
4x Surgical Extraction
2x Flusterstorm
3x Thoughtseize
1x Life from the Loam
1x Golgari Charm
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Perish
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Krosan Grip

We cut a Liliana of the Veil for a second Vendilion Clique (clearing a slot in the board). We chose to do this because Liliana really isn't good in the deck without the two loams and Worm Harvest/Darkblast mainboard. A fourth Jace was also a consideration, but we don't feel like needing 4. The Golgari Charm was an experiment in the board and I loved it. It almost always comes in against pretty much everything and is a versatile answer to many cards.

sdematt

02-19-2013, 01:58 PM

Do you ever feel the need for Disfigure to bridge to gap from AD to Deed?

-Matt

Chimera87

02-20-2013, 02:25 PM

Not really. I feel like the Baleful Strix does the same job. You don't really need to answer everything turn 1 or 2.

Dessyreqt

02-28-2013, 02:18 AM

Viridia

02-28-2013, 07:37 AM

Arianrhod

02-28-2013, 09:00 AM

I've been playing pretty much the same list down here in TX, and I've done pretty damn good with it, but I've recently changed the 3 Spell Snare/2 Spell Pierce to 3 Spell Pierce/2 Teferi's Response, and I've really been enjoying it. Pierce just seems like a better card to have overall right now, and the Responses can provide quite a blowout when played at the right time. Any thoughts?

Wat.

Snare is absurdly good right now. I'm not saying that Pierce isn't good, but Snare hits Bob, Goyf, Hymn, Burning Wish, Snapcaster, Stoneforge, Jitte, and a variety of lesser used / more niche targets (like Standstill!). That's insane value -- especially considering that Snare is a hard counter. It's as good on turn 2 as on turn 20, which you can't say for Pierce.

Dessyreqt

02-28-2013, 03:16 PM

Teferi's Response can be really good, but against any deck without land destruction it's just a dead draw.

In our next article we'll go more in-depth about creatures vs creatureless and explain our choices in there :)

When all of your creatures are lands, all of their creature destruction becomes land destruction. As an example, last night I used it to counter an activation of Goblin Bombardment, saving the land, destroying the Bombardment, and drawing two cards. Not a bad deal for 2 mana.

As far as Spell Snare being "absurdly good," it just hasn't been for me. It always seems like a wrong card at the wrong time and when it is the right time, the results aren't terribly exciting or backbreaking for the opponent. Yes, it hits a lot of stuff in the format. And I can't fault anyone for using it. I've just found it lackluster as of late. Maybe it's just my meta, maybe it's my play style. Who knows?

kiblast

02-28-2013, 06:08 PM

Teferi's Response is cool, but how often would you want it above any Counterspell, if you already have two mana open? Counterspell has way broader applications.
Snare is very good right now, and is a playable topdeck even in late game where Pierce doesn't really shine. I'm all for the split 3 Snare 2 Pierce 1-2 Counterspell.

kiblast

03-19-2013, 06:54 AM

Inspired by the greatly refined decklists proposed by Marc Tobiasch a while ago, I decided to give this abomination another try.

4C Caesar Salad.

Manabase:

3 Tundra
3 Tropical
3 Usea
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
3 Polluted
3 Misty
2 Flooded
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Academy Ruins
1 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Island

planeswalkers:

3 Jace tms
1 Elspeth, K.E.

Removals:

4 Swords to PLowshares
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Engineered Explosives

Disruption:

4 Force
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Inquisition
1 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
1 Raven's Crime
1 Counterspell
1 Vendilion Clique

Card quality,additional tools/ business:

4 Brainstorm
1 Life from the Loam
3 Lingering Souls
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Batterskull
2 Intuition

This deck has some outstanding Intuition piles and an amazing late game. If you manage to survive the early. More thoughts to follow.

Piceli89

03-19-2013, 10:02 AM

kiblast

03-20-2013, 06:08 AM

The first thing that sticks to my eye is Elspeth being wrong in a UBG-based manabase as she requires double white and you can't really pull that out easily. Plus, is Savannah really necessary (especially if you were to cut Elspeth)?

I know, trying to fit in Elspeth is probably putting too much stress to the manabase, but she breaks so many matchups... I'd be really sad to cut her. Sorin, Lord of innistrad is way less effective in that spot (even if when the guy is paired with a lingering souls provides a cool clock and the finisher is intriguing).

Savannah is there only for Elspeth, if I have to cut Elspeth I'd snap cut Savannah as well for another blue source/fetchland / another basic.

Edit: for some reason I overlooked Garruk Relentless as a possible manabase-friendly Planeswalker. Any info on how he's in a bug control shell? Is the 2nd liliana (or 4th jtms) just flat out better?

sdematt

03-22-2013, 02:10 PM

Arianrhod

03-22-2013, 02:27 PM

....No Jaces? o_O

RJM

03-22-2013, 03:17 PM

....No Jaces? o_O

I also only count 59 cards main deck. ;)

sdematt

03-22-2013, 05:05 PM

Well, I'm awful. Let me edit that :P

-Matt

Chimera87

03-22-2013, 06:02 PM

sdematt

03-23-2013, 03:48 AM

Looks like a nice list... However, I can't help buy think that running anything less than 4 Mishra's Factory is wrong. They are so synergistic together that I would always play 4.
My current list actually runs 4 Factories and 2 Tar Pits. That's been working great so far. We're also testing 2 Dimir Charms in the maindeck to be a flexible answer to both combo-pieces and creatures (any creature that it does not hit, gets hit by Baleful Strix...).

I like the Cabal Pit. I've been thinking about it for a while now and it might be a nice addition to the Loam versions of Landstill.

How's the maindecked discard working out for you?

Oh, and basic Forest is the worst.

My meta is full of aggro and Wasteland decks, so playing 6 manlands is too brutal for me, i just can't afford it. Plus, I'm playing 3 Counterspells, so I need my blue mana.

As for the basic Forest, I definitely lost games where I didn't have green mana. Sad but true. Maybe with more testing I won't need it, but, just irked me that I lost to get repeat Wastelanded on my Trops.

The small bit of discard is nice for information and "big-stuff" removal that Deed nor Abrupt Decay hit. It's also nice to have the opportunity to go Discard into Snapcaster + discard, which is a play I very much enjoyed from Esper control.

If I were to play it again, I'd tune the board more like:

2 Flusterstorm
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Engineered Plague
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Golgari Charm
2 Chill
1 Perish
2 Vendilion Clique

Koplinchen

03-23-2013, 04:03 AM

Why no Wastelands and side Targmo?

sdematt

03-23-2013, 05:42 PM

Your manabase is already atrocious. Adding Wastelands is only going to make it worse, and you're going to be less consistent at casting Counterspell on Turn 2 if need be. You also want lots of lands, so I don't want to go down a land just to try to put the off colour.

For the side, I don't need Tarmogoyf. He's fine, but there's few matchups in my meta where I'd want him.

-Matt

ScatmanX

03-25-2013, 01:36 PM

Finally got to play with this deck again. Went to a 5 round tournament + top8 with friends.
Here is what I played:

2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Wasteland
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Swamp
1 Island

3 Jace, the Mindsculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Snapcaster Mage

3 Standstill
1 Life from the Loam

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce

2 Disfigure
1 Dismember
3 Abrupt Decay

SIDEBOARD:
2 Nihil Spellbomb

1 Duress
2 Flusterstorm
2 Seize
3 Vendillion Clique

1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Tarmogoyf
3 Engineered Plague

Round 1 - Dredge
Game 1: I lead with Shaman. He drops 2 Trolls on the Grave. I remove one. He dredges only 1 dude, and try another Study, which I pierce. Winning from that was easy.
Game 2: I mull into a great hand. FoW his T1 play, drop Shaman, then drop 2nd Shaman. Was quite easy.
1-0

Round 2 - TES
Game 1: He Duress me T1, taking FoW, leaving me with only Goyf and Liliana. I draw Pierce. He cantrips T2. I Draw Fow, and drops Goyf. He goes for it, and I FoW Ad Nauseam. Better lucky than good.
Game 2: I just don't put any pressure, and when he sees a window, he makes lots of Tokens.
Game 3:I just have a shit ton of permission, with a Goyf and Clique beats. Nothing interesting.
2-0

Round 3 - Sneak Show
Game 1: Don't really remember the 1st game. Countered both attempts he had to SnT.
Game 2: I Duressed and Pierced and FoWed him. When he went for a SnT, I knwe he would drop the Emrakul, so let it resolve to put a clock into play, and cast Liliana and protected her. Won from there.
3-0

Round 4 - Bug Delver
Game 1: He plays Delver and Disrupts me a lot. Dismember takes care of one, but he has Shaman and Goyf that eat my removal-less hand.
Game 2: Don't remember much too. A standstill really help me get this game.
Game 3: I keep Fetch, 2x Shaman, FoW, Loam, Disfigure and something blue. He plays Shaman. I play Shaman. He plays a discard spell, takes my U card, and Decays Shaman. He Surgicals my Shamans. I pass. He passes. I Draw, and he plays Clique, which I FoW, managins to cast a Brainstorm, that finds a fetch, that finds a B source, that kills Shaman. Next turn I Loam 1 land, and Dismembers his Goyf. I Loam again, and get lots of goods. Eventually Loam underwhelm me with CA, and he ends up dying to Tar-Pit+Factory.
4-0

Round 5 - UWmiralcehelm
ID

Top 8 - Canadian
Game 1: He leads with Delver, me with Shaman. He does nothing. I play Standstill. He tinks and let it resolve. Delver does not flip again, and I drop a Tarpit. He sees himself forced to break it. Shaman + Tarpit manage to outrun Delver.
Game 2: He goes to 6, me to 5. He passes. I pass. He play a Mongoose. I FoW. I play Stanstill, he Dazes. I draw 2 Goyfs in a row that resolves, he gets 2 Geese, while Dismember kills a Delver. I resolve a Liliana, that east a Geese, and the 2 Goyfs are just too big after she dies (6/7) and finish him easily. He got a lot flooded here..

Top4 - Reanimator
Game 1: I keep Conterspell and Pierce, T3 a Brainstorm locks me out of lands, so I play Standstill and hope for the best. He manages to reanimate Grislebrand trough it, But I have Jace + FoW + Pierce my turn, and Grisle is bounced. I let an Exhume resolve, and I Liliana his 5/8 angel. From there a Goy kills him fast.
Game 2: He seizes and see Nihil, Shaman, FoW, Pierce, Liliana, Duress, 1 land. Nice hand. He takes Nihil and FoW's Shaman. I drew very well, hitting landdrops, getting Clique to get the clock going. He was never in this game. Too much hate.

Top2 - UWiralcehelm
ID.

The deck felt awesome. Combo was delt very easily. The removal package felt great too.
Standstill underperformed I guess, but might be good in other matchups. Still, think Strix would have been better...
The side was ok. I'm a little affraid of fast agroo, and I'd like to put 2 Extirpate on the side, to have a chance against Punishing Fire. Nihil was great though, and I don't want to remove that (we don't have many things to fight Mongoose...). What would you guys suggest me to do?
Would like to add a 3rd Waste too, but don't know how to do that. 2 Tarpits and Factorys were awesome.

I'll be playing it again shortly. Any feedback is appreciated =]

xfxf

03-27-2013, 07:16 AM

In the current meta why would you pick BUG Still over Esperblade or RiP/Helm as a control deck? I'm currently on Esper and I can see where having access to Deed comes in handy against a host of fair decks but besides that what makes this a better pick over UW control options?

sdematt

03-27-2013, 12:53 PM

Esperblade is a very strong deck, I'll admit that fact. However, BUG gives you access to a ton of sideboard option, as well as access to Abrupt Decay.

Let's go over the similarities:

Similar manabase (some more nonbasics by us, but no biggy)
Jace.deck
Counterspells
Discard

Differences:

Lingering Souls
Deed
Abrupt Decay
Standstill

So, it really depends on what you're trying to do and who you're gunning for. BUG Landstill is very good against the creature based decks in the format at the moment. Deed, Strix, Decay, and such are all a beating. You straight up smoke Helm/RIP Esper. Standstill is a better draw engine than anything Esperblade currently has. This deck is good at playing under Standstill by killing threats, and waiting with Standstill to draw infinite cards.

Esperblade is going to be better at being the aggressive deck where it needs to be, and the control deck when it has to be. SFM and Souls allows you to be aggressive with SFM in creature matchups, and Souls harass other Planeswalkers and go long in the control matchups.

BUG Landstill is the control deck all the time, in all honesty. The question remains however, is which is better against Jund? Esper isn't amazing against Jund, but BUG has more tools at beating BBE, even though we don't have access to Souls. Running more removal is a big deal, and gaining advantage with Standstill is great.

I think choice comes down to: is a pure control deck better in your meta, are you good at knowing how/when to play Standstill, and personal preference. I think both are solid choices in the meta at the moment.

-Matt

DragoFireheart

03-27-2013, 02:04 PM

I think choice comes down to: is a pure control deck better in your meta, are you good at knowing how/when to play Standstill, and personal preference. I think both are solid choices in the meta at the moment.

-Matt

And why would I use this over Miracle Control? It has arguably superior creature kill and a faster win con (Terminus and Entreat).

Viridia

03-27-2013, 05:21 PM

Actually, Miracle isnt faster at all.

Chimera played CounterTop alot, even before Miracles and he's a good and quick player, however he ended up going 0-0-5 before giving up @ GP Ghent purely because the deck is slow as balls and people aparently play really slow against it.

The whole reason to play BUGStill over any other control deck is the fact that with Decays, Deeds and sideboard Pulses etc. you have to ability to wipe the whole board, regardless of permanent types.
Next to that you're playing the best CardAdvantage engines there are (Standstill, Jace).

On top of that, the deck is soooooooo much more fun to play than Esperblade/Miracles ;)

sdematt

03-27-2013, 07:28 PM

Also, the only reason you should be playing ANY deck over ANYTHING, regardless of meta, consists of two reasons:

1) Is it banned?
2) Do you know the deck?

I'd play RGBSA (Survival) if it would still be legal, regardless of the meta, since that was MY deck. Now I'm on Junk, and I'll run BWG until the end of time, regardless of the meta. Why? I'm good with it, I know how to tune, and I know the deck.

-Matt

Chimera87

03-30-2013, 02:57 PM

And why would I use this over Miracle Control? It has arguably superior creature kill and a faster win con (Terminus and Entreat).

Miracle Control has a glacial kill condition... Landstill can actually win well within time if you play with a good pace and know how to use your Factories and Tar Pits. I hardly ever go into time and if I do, it's mostly because of my opponents.
As Viridia said about Miracle Control: opponents apparently can't properly play against a countertop softlock, because the pace becomes even slower... and since you're digging for either the Entreat or the RiP+Helm, you're going to be running out of time rather quickly.

The current version of landstill that we run has 3 snapcasters, 2 cliques, 4 strixes, 3 jaces, 2 tar pits and 4 factories as win con. That's a pretty good clock if it's backed up by (arguably) the best mass removal spell in Legacy, i.e. Pernicious Deed.

I hope this helps ;)

kiblast

04-02-2013, 06:21 AM

I don't really get why people are posting and commenting lists that clearly don't belong in this thread. You already have the BUG control thread. This is the Ubgx landstill thread, clearly only 2 archetypes deserve to be discussed here:

-Bug Landstill variants
-4c UBgx control decks.

It's annoying to see the discussion bumped every now and then for decklists that have their obvious place in the BUG control thread. If your bug list doesn't splash a 4th colour, neither plays Standstill, you have more appropriate places to discuss it.

Reagens

04-02-2013, 06:37 AM

Played this list yesterday to a first place, 3-1 finish:

4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Mishra's Factory
4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Cabal Pit

4 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage

4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
4 Standstill

4 Brainstorm
2 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Life from the Loam
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Disfigure
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

--BOARD--

2 Flusterstorm
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Engineered Plague
1 Darkblast
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Golgari Charm
2 Chill
1 Perish
1 Can't remember

I beat Reanimator 2-1, I beat Affinity 2-1, I lost to Sneak and Show 0-2, and won against BUG Tempo 2-0. Overall the list felt great, but I need a basic Forest. The Cabal Pit was spicy, though.

-Matt

Played the same list last weekend in a GPT trial with one minor change:
-1 pernicious deed
+1 maelstrom pulse

There is not much aggro left in my metagame where combo (of all sorts) and BUG are currently dominating.

Also some sideboard changes but not very relevant.
Result was:

2-1 win against Belcher (had the force game 1 but had to force when he was threatening to go to 4 mana and he had the mana to play around that).
2-1 win against Ichorid (came close to winning game 1 where he drew crap. Game 2-3 I found the combination of surgical and snapcaster ftw)
2-1 win agains BUG control (lost game 2 because I sided out some removal and got caught off-guard by his sideboarded goyfs). I win the two other games although he resolves Jace first.
ID next two rounds.

2-0 loss against RUG Delver where I lose from triple wasteland and double wasteland (in about 6-7 turns play I guess) without resolving anything really useful because of color and mana screw.

It made me think that perhaps the manabase needs some work. Specifically I would consider replacing basic swamp since there are quite a few sources that produce black besides underground. I am even considering taking non basic since it's very difficult to play around wasteland with this deck and you could try and overload on their wasteland game 1 and consider teferi's response (or a second life from the loam) on sideboard. With a second life it might be feasible to play basic forest but that's a big if I guess :)

Chimera87

04-02-2013, 06:57 AM

Nice result and too bad @ the loss against RUG. That's typically how I loose my games against them. They only really stand a proper chance with a hand loaded with Wasteland, Stifle and/or Loams. Otherwise, you can go to the lategame and beat them. Hardly any deck can beat the multiple wasteland draw, I'm afraid. Especially if it's backed by a turn 1 Delver or Mongoose.
I don't think you can really fix this issue, unless you go back to the old 4 Innocent Blood, 2 Life from the Loam, 2 Liliana of the Veil, 1 Worm Harvest build... which just tears RUG apart... but it's too slow for the rest of the meta right now.

Koplinchen

04-03-2013, 05:12 PM

Hey guys what do you think about this deck? I know it looks a little bit old fashioned but I want to play Wastelands and Life along with Liliana and Deed. I played it in two events so far winning all the games.

4 Brainstorm
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Spell Pierce
3 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
1 Darkblast

2 Innocent Blood
2 Life from the Loam
2 Thoughtseize
1 Duress

2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Jace
3 Lili
3 P Deed
2 SDTop

3 Sea
1 Bayou
3 Tropico
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Wasteland

Side:

2 Clique
3 Goyf
1 Thrun
2 Flusterstorm
1 Cage
2 Surgical
1 Raven's Crime
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Krosan Grip

(side is a little bit random)

The Treefolk Master

04-04-2013, 09:30 AM

ScatmanX

04-04-2013, 01:29 PM

In case you haven't seen it, your deck was mentioned in Caleb Durward's article: http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/legacy-weapon-brewing-control/

Congratulations
Sweet! Thanks. I really like his articles.

The list/report got 0 comments here. Is it because it is too traditional, or is it that Standstill usually is played alongside with Deed, not Shaman?
I made some tweaks on the deck and took another small tourney here. I'm really enjoying it.

The Treefolk Master

04-04-2013, 06:33 PM

Sweet! Thanks. I really like his articles.

The list/report got 0 comments here. Is it because it is too traditional, or is it that Standstill usually is played alongside with Deed, not Shaman?
I made some tweaks on the deck and took another small tourney here. I'm really enjoying it.

Mmm, I dunno, I guess it was the fact of Tarmogoyf/Shaman alongside Standstill, which hasn't been seen in these forums for quite a while. Care to post your updated list?

Viridia

04-05-2013, 06:14 AM

Sweet! Thanks. I really like his articles.

The list/report got 0 comments here. Is it because it is too traditional, or is it that Standstill usually is played alongside with Deed, not Shaman?
I made some tweaks on the deck and took another small tourney here. I'm really enjoying it.

Basically that yes :)

Both Chimera and i prefer to play pure control rather then a more midrangy aproach like yours and thus can't really say anything about it either, as we havent tested a version like that at all :)

ScatmanX

04-05-2013, 08:54 AM

Well, thanks for the honesty then =]
There is no update on the version. I tested with Strix in place of Standstill, and didn't liked it, and put 2 Extirpates on the side in place of 1 Nihil and 1 Goyf. On the MD I'd like to add a 3rd Wasteland, and probably the 4th Goyf, but don't know what to take out.

DragoFireheart

04-05-2013, 09:37 AM

Miracle Control has a glacial kill condition... Landstill can actually win well within time if you play with a good pace and know how to use your Factories and Tar Pits. I hardly ever go into time and if I do, it's mostly because of my opponents.
As Viridia said about Miracle Control: opponents apparently can't properly play against a countertop softlock, because the pace becomes even slower... and since you're digging for either the Entreat or the RiP+Helm, you're going to be running out of time rather quickly.

The current version of landstill that we run has 3 snapcasters, 2 cliques, 4 strixes, 3 jaces, 2 tar pits and 4 factories as win con. That's a pretty good clock if it's backed up by (arguably) the best mass removal spell in Legacy, i.e. Pernicious Deed.

I hope this helps ;)

This post and Viridia's post helped. Thanks.

DragoFireheart

04-05-2013, 09:40 AM

ScatmanX

04-05-2013, 11:14 AM

Why didn't you like Strix? He seems like a good choice: pitches to FoW, cantrips, can block.
My manabase was worse than the normal one (taking Viridia's one here), with 2 Bayous, and only 23 lands. Sometimes I was just unable to cast it T2. The clock it provided was glacial, and it never really killed anything. And I really like Standstill. The subgame it provides is awesome, and fun, and is a much more skill intensive card, that can lead to more wins if played correctly.
The 'can block' argument is ok, but the deck has 6 spot removals, + Snapcaster, and Goyfs that do that part really well to.

eldpojken

04-10-2013, 12:30 PM

Hello fellow wizards, hunks and honeys.

I'm newly regged as a member on The Source but I have been lurking for a while. I have also played Magic since Ice Age so I have been around the block so to speak.

During the last couple of months I have been mostly playing different versions of Miracles but recently I've taken interesting in moving to a BUGStill list as I am dissapointed in Miracles ability to close out games, even with RIP/Helm. I do love me some Sensei's Divining Top tho but hopefully the raw card draw of Standstill can fill the void in my heart.

Anyways I've been following the discussion here lately and I am liking the path Viridia and Chimera have taken the deck by taking advantage of Snapcaster and Clique (both which I disliked quite a bit in Miracles) since they synergize so well with the manland plan, both for killing the opponent and attacking Planeswalkers (which I had trouble with in Miracles after cutting Clique).

My question is about Baleful Strix though. I like the card but I'm not sure if I like it in this archetype. It would be interesting and educational to give a more detailed thought process behind your decision to play 4 (!) of them in your list Viridia and Chimera. Which matchups do you feel you need them the most and is the functionality of them really what this deck needs?

From what I understand and theorize about, the decks biggest drawback is basically having enough mana to perform it's gameplan and because of that (specifically colored sources) I'm currently looking at only 3 Mishra, but maybe the 4th is so strong that another colorless land is worth the slot since they synergize so well with eachother? I'm looking to run 23 lands fwiw and 2 Tar Pit atm. General thoughts on number of lands and number of man lands (both Mishra and Tar Pit) everyone?

With this general idea that the deck performs very well in long games I have tailored my list to handle the early game as good as possible, playing a generally lower curve than most lists I've seen. Also I am a big fan of 4 FoW maindecks and a healthy bluecount (anything below 22 I feel is being greedy and I'm not truly comfortable without 23+).

Here is my current list for reference:

CREATURES (5)
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique

ENCHANTMENTS (6)
3 Standstill
3 Pernicious Deed

SORCERIES (6)
2 Ponder
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize

INSTANTS (17)
4 Brainstorm
2 Disfigure
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
1 Counterspell
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will

PLANESWALKERS (3)
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

LANDS (23)
3 Mishra’s Factory
2 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Swamp

SIDEBOARD
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Duress
1 Thoughtseize
2 Hydroblast
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Krosan Grip
1 Perish
2 Engineered Plague
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Batterskull

The Cranial Extraction is for Punishing Fire specifically as I feel that card must be very hard to beat and I'm not keen on messing up my mana base with Wastelands and Loam in the board.
I am a bit worried about big creatures/permanents without any Pulses maindeck though Thoughtseize does cover some of that ground and I am playing 4 FoW and a Counterspell (which maybe should be more though I feel it puts strain on the manabase and is best in the mid/lategame, which is the reason I'm playing Spell Snare).

Also another question I have is if anyone has tested the merits of Preordain vs Ponder in controlling lists like this that isn't looking for specific combo pieces? I noticed Hetrick played Preordain over Ponder in his Esper list recently and I have tried Preordain in the past and been relatively happy with them but am still undecided.

So, that was a lot of questions and thoughts. Anyone feel free to give your input and reasoning and I would really like to hear some extra words from Viridia or Chimera regarding your list.

Thanks!

sdematt

04-10-2013, 12:40 PM

I was playing discard in the main for information, but I was sorely missing a Maelstrom Pulse. I ended up cutting the maindeck discard for Spell Snares and Pulse.

Snare is REALLY good right now. It hits a ton of stuff, especially if you're on the draw. Hymn, SFM, Goyf, etc. I know Chimaera is running Pierce, but in my meta I want Snare (especially for the 70 card mirror, yes, this is a thing). Then breaking your Standstill with their Standstill is both the best and worst feeling.

I've been loving the Cliques, I have to say.

As for Strix, I wouldn't trade it for anything. Drawing a card and either baiting removal, protecting Planeswalkers, or pinging is quite decent. It works nicely when you have a Standstill and they have stuff on board, since it won't be able to attack and you just leverage Standstill like a champ.

-Matt

ScatmanX

04-10-2013, 01:36 PM

Also another question I have is if anyone has tested the merits of Preordain vs Ponder in controlling lists like this that isn't looking for specific combo pieces? I noticed Hetrick played Preordain over Ponder in his Esper list recently and I have tried Preordain in the past and been relatively happy with them but am still undecided.
I'm no control expert, but in my view, Ponder has more advantages. Not only because it digs deeper (and it is relevant lots of times), but also because you can plan your following turns better, because it gives you more information about your next draws. I'ts a subtle advantage, but can very well give you enough information to provide a line of play that otherwise you'd not have been able to see, that can lead you to winning the game.

eldpojken

04-10-2013, 06:23 PM

matt: Yeah I kinda want 1 pulse as it is very versatile and also Snappable but at the same time I really want efficient spells to tide me over into the midgame where my powerful gamebreakers like Deed, Jace and Standstill pull ahead and a 3 mana sorcery (especially relevant in my permission/flash heavy list) that in most cases probably only destroys stuff that a Decay, Disfigure or Deed itself could've handled is not really that exciting. This is the reason I have 1 in the sb and maybe should have another to bring in when it actually handles threats that need a different spell than the more efficient options, like vs Planeswalker decks.

I agree on Spell Snare being nice, especially considering it can be relevant long into the game (compared to say Spell Pierce, although I think Pierce is really good atm and I even played 4 of them in my combo centric RIP/Helm Miracle list even though that is a longgame deck). I like the 2/2 split between Snare and Pierce to give flexibility to Snapcaster and being good vs different types of threats usually. I do however really like 1 mana discard spells for the information as you said which (since Magic in general is very much a game of incomplete information) really works well with a heavy permission suite as you will know better what to save your counterspells for. It also synergies well with allowing yourself to play Standstill more consistently since they are cheap ways to remove the potential threats that can come down before Standstill, which is the same reason I like Disfigure and Spell Snare and why I don't want to overload on Decays (or Pulses for that matter).

I'm not that keen on Strix though since out of the reasons you stated only the protecting Planeswalker part feels really relevant. They seem kinda slow for what they do and in the MU's where a good blocker is really necessary you might not even have time to make use of that extra card. The color contraints and the fact that it costs 2 makes it seem slow and really clunky in a lot of situations, especially if you play 4 and get multiples in MU where they aren't amazing. Oldschool cycling at sorcery speed is not really where I want to be in Legacy, though that is why I am asking those of you who have played them a lot so that I can get a better sense in what situations you feel Strix does a so much better job than other potential spells filling similar roles (like Disfigure or Decay) that it is worth the potential downsides.

Scatman:
Yeah those are ofc the advantages of Ponder but when you have Ponder piles with 2 bad cards and 1 good that you really need it becomes kinda awkard while with Preordain you get to keep the good one and get rid of a bad one without having to shuffle. Now ofc you have no information about the 3rd card which makes the comparisons hard to evaluate which is why I am asking for input if anyone has tried them extensively. For now I'm sticking with Ponder.

Viridia

04-10-2013, 06:35 PM

Hi! More Landstill Players! yay!

Now, onto the more improtant stuff.

Chimera and i have been playing with Strix for a couple of months now and it is just such a great card. For 2 mana, it cantrips and stops nearly every attacking creature dead in its tracks. All while also pithing to FoW in the matchups you don't really need them :D

Yes, our love for that card is great, as Matt said, it is superawesome under a Standstill, because even if they have a threat on the board, especially one you cannot kill with manlands (think Goyfs, or KotR tutoring Wastelands) it will always stop it from attacking, which means they will have to break your Standstills at some point.

It also fits the Curve in that perfect spot vs Aggro, especially if you don't have an Abrupt Decay ready to get rid of their stuff.

We've also been experimenting with discard in the mainboard, but you only really want it vs Combo. Vs everything else more Pierces/Removal would be better, so we ended up putting them back into the board :)

Spell Snare is always a good option, Chimera and i just never found it that needed, especially since we've started playing Dimir Charms, as the only 2 drops we're really scared of are Hymn to Tourachs, most other stuff gets handled by Abrupt Decay and Pernicious Deed very well.

Cantrips are a very odd thing in control decks. Obviously, Brainstorm is amazing, because you get to shuffle away the matchup specific cards if you don't really need them in that match, however all other cantrips (Ponder/Preordain mainly) "only" fix your draws, and often aren't even very good at it. With the 4 Brainstorms, the massive CA of Strix/Standstill/Snapcaster/Jace and Jacestorming along the way, we never felt the need for more cantrips, as they take the spots of actual answers ;)

Chimera will probably hop in and fill the gaps in my answers, considering it's past midnight here and my brain might not be functioning superwell :P

eldpojken

04-10-2013, 06:55 PM

Thanks for the response!

Regarding Strix:
While I understand everything you are saying, my question is wether you actually feel that you need that ability block so often that it makes the card amazing. Now obviously since you have played with it for so long and not changed it there must be merit to it but my intiution is telling me that the effect of the blocker isn't really that much better than just playing a "smoother" card like something that costs less and/or is instant speed, etc. As for being good under Standstill, I can see that but isn't that kinda slow considering you need to play out Strix for 2, have it live until your next turn probably and then still have to make sure that it doesn't die with Standstill on the stack and then being forced to break your own Standstill?

Maybe I am annoying but some further elaboration would be really helpful as it is the biggest change from my list to yours I think. :)

Regarding discard:
The reason I like it is because I like to stay flexible and not have a superstrong game 1 vs certain decks while being a lot weaker to say combo. For that reason I like these 1 mana discard spells (aside from the information factor ofc) since they still are pretty good in non-combo MU's, and also ofc Snappable. I think I maybe should go 2 Inquisition, 2 Thoughtseize main to not be to hurt by them vs more aggressive decks, especially if I hope to SNap them back, but for now I went with 3 Thoughtseize since I cut my Pulse to have some answers to biggert threats like Tombstalker.

Regarding Spell Snare:
Initially I had them in my list, the cut them for a while, before putting them back in. I cut them for the same reasons you did, thinking that especially Deed probably solves all the things you want to counter with it usually. But then I got more and more concerned with the mana and the curve of the deck and feeling like you can't always rely on the more expensive spells to deal with stuff, especially if you want to be able to drop Standstill consistently. Snare seems really nice on the draw too and is ofc a very efficient Snapcaster target. Testing will tell how I feel about them but right now it seems they hit a lot of the meta aside from Sneak and Show mostly.

Regarding cantrips:
By playing 3 Snapcaster with the 4 Brainstorms, as well as the amount of draw the deck has compared to almost all Legacy decks perhaps no more cantrips are needed but coming from playing a lot with Sensei Top I have always been skeptical of playing control decks with only 4 Brainstorm as fixing since the early parts of the game really need to go smoothly for you to ever reach enough mana and board stability to let your superior late game take over. Also Snapcaster becomes even more flexible with additional cantrips to Brainstorm. Now I do agree that I wouldn't want too many and 1 or 2 feels like the best number, 3 already feels like pushing it but I am not sure. Last summer I was playing a Bug Control list without Standstill and fewer Deeds and I had 4 Brainstorm and 4 Preordain with a couple Snapcaster in that list and it felt really consistent at finding the pieces it needed. The problem with that list was mostly that I was winning with Tarmogoyf which was hard in any StP meta so I abandoned that deck. Anyways, need to test this as well but for now my gut tells me a couple of Ponders should be good. They also help cut the curve down a bit.

General thoughts:
Perhaps I am reducing the raw power of the deck, which is the reason it will be strong in the lategame, by trimming the curve and playing more efficient spells compared to powerful ones like Strix, but at the same time I think a lot of the decks power comes from Deed, Jace, Standstill and the manlands primarily and I'm not really playing fewer of those than most lists (I really like 3 Standstill and 3 Jace as opposed to more of them as having draws with too many of these cards and too few spells to handle early threats can cause you to not be able to play Standstill at all and with the draw from Standstill finding a Jace should be easier than for say Esper. 6 slots total seem like a good number, allowing you to find at least one, especially with 2 Ponders, while not risking having clunky draws too often).

I really think this deck is very powerful, well positioned right now, flexible as hell and really rewards good knowledge of the format and tight play. Let us keep the discussion going to all learn even if we disagree about card choices! :)

ween

04-10-2013, 08:35 PM

I'm concerned that i might not have my numbers of things right.

I sort of converted my BUG Deck that had Ancestral Visions, by swapping in 3 Standstills, a Life from the Loam, and 2 Creeping Tar Pit.

In doing so, i kept my creature package of 4 Tarmogoyf, 4 Deathrite Shaman and 3 Vendilion Clique. No Snapcaster Mage.

With no Snapcaster Mage, i think my 24 lands might be fine, but i find i'm really soft to aggresive decks still, even UR Delver causes me a headache. Only removal is 4 Abrupt Decay, so perhaps something else there might do the trick, but i refuse to use Dismember, for some reason that card just offends me.

I love Baleful Strix, but the four copies i have are in my UB Tezzeret Stax deck, so maybe those are the answer and i just need another 4 copies..

sdematt

04-10-2013, 11:17 PM

...Or move them between the two decks or run Disfigure as your removal slots 5 and 6?

-Matt

ween

04-10-2013, 11:41 PM

...Or move them between the two decks or run Disfigure as your removal slots 5 and 6?

-Matt

I like having many decks built at once for my friends to use, downside is multiple playsets of things like Wasteland and Force are costly.

But yeah, perhaps the discard could become Disfigure. I might need to make one of my Trops a Bayou to really solidify the early black if that's the case.

Chimera87

04-11-2013, 12:46 AM

Hoo boy, lots to write I think.

First of all: Awesome to see new LandStill players that are apparently also willing to actually learn how to play the deck... some of the plays I have seen on footage... I will try to answer most of the questions and remarks from the previous posts. Some might have already been answered by Viridia.

Eldpojken

My question is about Baleful Strix though. I like the card but I'm not sure if I like it in this archetype. It would be interesting and educational to give a more detailed thought process behind your decision to play 4 (!) of them in your list Viridia and Chimera. Which matchups do you feel you need them the most and is the functionality of them really what this deck needs?
----
I'm not that keen on Strix though since out of the reasons you stated only the protecting Planeswalker part feels really relevant. They seem kinda slow for what they do and in the MU's where a good blocker is really necessary you might not even have time to make use of that extra card. The color contraints and the fact that it costs 2 makes it seem slow and really clunky in a lot of situations, especially if you play 4 and get multiples in MU where they aren't amazing. Oldschool cycling at sorcery speed is not really where I want to be in Legacy, though that is why I am asking those of you who have played them a lot so that I can get a better sense in what situations you feel Strix does a so much better job than other potential spells filling similar roles (like Disfigure or Decay) that it is worth the potential downsides.
----
As for being good under Standstill, I can see that but isn't that kinda slow considering you need to play out Strix for 2, have it live until your next turn probably and then still have to make sure that it doesn't die with Standstill on the stack and then being forced to break your own Standstill?

I think this is the biggest decision in LandStill builds right now. This little flyer seems like it's relatively bad in a deck that is glacially slow, i.e. BUG LandStill. However, the gaping holes that this dude fills really need to be filled. Strix does the following things:

Pitches to FoW.
Removes any threat that uses the red zone, excluding something ridiculous such as Unblockable, Shadow or Regenerate (even though my Strixes are known to kill an opponents Thrun... RTFC seems hard).
Provides instant card advantage when an opponent answers it.... and he typically has to. The only way to have it be a 1-for-1 is countermagic.
Transforms the opponent in a very slow player, who doesn't dare to attack into it.
In Esper lists, it's a cantripping artifact for Academy Ruins.

In other words, the card is quite amazing in this deck. Yes, it can die while Standstill is on the stack, but you have to keep these things in mind when you play your Standstill. Within the current meta, the most tricky thing to do is cast a StandStill. This always has to be a well thought-out action, as there are many things that can go wrong once it's in play. The days of cycling a Decree of Justice under a StandStill are gone.
Actually, normally you cast your Strix a turn before you land the Still. If it lived for this long, it's probably living, as most players kill it on sight (or even counter it, which makes resolving a Still even more likely). I almost never land a StandStill turn 2, unless I have FoW back-up and a Manland in hand or play.

I'm currently looking at only 3 Mishra, but maybe the 4th is so strong that another colorless land is worth the slot since they synergize so well with eachother? I'm looking to run 23 lands fwiw and 2 Tar Pit atm.
Viridia and I are strong advocates of running no less than 4 Factories. Our current build has 2 Tar Pits and 4 Factories. We're running 24 lands, which we're quite unhappy about. We used to run up to 26 lands (4 Waste, 1 Tar Pit, 4 Factory) before Abrupt Decay was printed (Worm Harvest build) and don't like anything below 25. However, since we're not running any Wastelands right now (with it being a colourless land and all) we decided to go down to 24 in favor of an extra Dimir Charm.

The Cranial Extraction is for Punishing Fire specifically as I feel that card must be very hard to beat and I'm not keen on messing up my mana base with Wastelands and Loam in the board.
I love this idea and will be testing with it for the PFire and Control/combo matchups. Might be a good slow in the board in the current meta.

Also another question I have is if anyone has tested the merits of Preordain vs Ponder in controlling lists like this that isn't looking for specific combo pieces? I noticed Hetrick played Preordain over Ponder in his Esper list recently and I have tried Preordain in the past and been relatively happy with them but am still undecided.
If you ask me, LandStill cannot afford to go down on answers and up on cantrips. While I acknowledge the raw power of the "bad" cantrips (Ponder, Preordain) I would never make room for them in LandStill. Me and Viridia have been crazy enough to run 3 Sensei's Divining Top (with Counterbalance in the board) a while back (probably 2011). However, currently you need more answers. Snapcaster doesn't become bad without more than 4 cantrips (Brainstorm). If you really need to fix your draws, you can always e.o.t. Dimir Charm yourself.

I think a lot of the decks power comes from Deed, Jace, Standstill and the manlands primarily
Agreed. Any other card can only amplify or weaken these cards. The actual reason this deck is any good is Pernicious Deed. Hence, I'd never play anything less than 4 of them in the main (perhaps one side, but that's pushing it).

Sdematt

Snare is REALLY good right now. It hits a ton of stuff, especially if you're on the draw. Hymn, SFM, Goyf, etc.
While this is very true, I wonder if you really have to answer these cards. Besides Hymn to Tourach, Snare hits only stuff that is also answered by: Abrupt Decay, Pernicious Deed, Baleful Strix and Dimir Charm.
Cards that Spell Pierce hits over Snare: B-mana discard, Top, Walkers, Burn, etc. We believe that Pierce in our current build is much better as it's way more versatile in the threats that it hits. The threats that it cannot touch are dealt with by our other removal suite. In the late game it's also not a dead card, because players are known to tap-out at the wrong times and it always can pitch to a FoW at moment's notice.

-----------------------
Another card for everyone to consider is Dimir Charm. We initially decided it was bad (it doesn't kill Goyf), we now think that it's the one card truly needed for the deck. It kills SFM, Bob, Shaman, Mother, Non-flipped Delver, Lavamancer, etc for as little as two mana. Furthermore, it counters any relevant sorcery from combo and also any discard spell. In the lategame, it provides a nice route to victory in fixing the opponents last draw step. While it does not answer Goyf, Knight, etc... we don't really care. This is where Baleful Strix shines. Basically, Dimir Charm is a removal spell, counterspell, end-game finisher and blue card that pitches to FoW. It fit so perfectly with the Baleful Strix plan that we decided to cut our second Counterspell and a Wasteland for it (the other waste is now a tar pit).

As a last point on the maindecked discard. I personally believe that if you know this deck well enough, you don't need the maindeck discard as much. The Vendilion Cliques already provided some information in the lategame (to see if you can land a StandStill or Jace). In the early game, there's not much you're really afraid of besides Combo. If you know well enough and early enough what you're opponent is playing, then you don't need the discard.

The most important thing with this deck is to know when to play a StandStill or not. Know your opponents deck and his possible outs from the top. If you have 3 manlands in play and the opponent has no board presence, then it's statistically unlikely that you loose from there. However, it is known to happen (lots to me). Be prepared to break your own StandStill and this point. I've won many times through breaking my own StandStill e.o.t. and have the opponent also discard to 7 cards in hand.

TR:DR: Most important thing: learn how to play this deck. Analyze the mistakes you make, because there are many, they are very small, and they lead to game losses. This deck is a punishment (while extremely awesome) to play.

Iron Buddha

04-11-2013, 05:50 AM

I'm really digging your list. I'm not on the UBG train, but on the other one, but I see so many similiarities concerning the structure I definitely agree with:

25-26 mana-sources
this deck can afford not to run Spell Snare (mainly because of Pernicious Deed and Baleful Strix providing good cardadvantage when on the defense)
not more than 4 Brainstorm as for cantrips (no SDT or even Ponder)

So now on to my question:
How good is Surgical Extraction (against Storm, and Sneak Show)?
How good is Surgical Extraction with only 3 discard and 2 Wasteland?

Reagens

04-11-2013, 08:05 AM

So now on to my question:
How good is Surgical Extraction (against Storm, and Sneak Show)?
How good is Surgical Extraction with only 3 discard and 2 Wasteland?

In both cases not very good.
Siding extraction vs sneak show seems like an atrocious choice anyway. The off-chance of hitting something that really cripples their deck are sooo small it's not worth having the dead draw of surgical.
Storm is more difficult. One can assume that you effectively cut off the ill-gotten gains route but what of it? Landstill does not pressure their lifetotals any time fast (probably only after resolving a clique) and thus they have very little need to go that way (since you are playing a lot of countermagic anyway it would probably only be tried by a competent player as a last resort anyway).
Having x discard and x wasteland is not relevant anyway. If you want to resolve two-card combo's you are better of playing another deck anyway. It does not guarantee you anything when you surgical their undergrounds or whatever card anyway.

Remember that in any given match-up boarding in surgical extraction can be a deathtrap. It is a very useful card vs reanimator/dredge and perhaps some other gy based decks. But the card is MUCH narrower then one would assume. I see people boarding in that stuff because they see snapcaster mage or lingering souls on the other side. The chances of resolving that card at the exact right moment (when flashing in snapcaster for example) are so small that it's really not worth the effort. I even had someone boarding in surgical extractions vs Matt's list because of the 3 snapcaster/singleton life from the loam. When he eventually extracted the loam the damage was already done (I just wanted three lands anyway).

eldpojken

04-11-2013, 11:22 AM

Hello Chimera and thanks for response!

Many good points, especially that playing a Standstill has to be carefully thought out. I do feel however that that comes with the territory of playing the unique effect that it is and anyone who has played with or against the card realizes that pretty quickly. The hard part is ofc determining when it is actually good or not. Part of the reason I like this deck so much now is that I feel that it is relatively rare that you cannot play it at all (which is very different from my experience with the card in Standard way back when) since your deck is so well set up to function under it, both with manlands, the fact that you dont´t mind dragging the game out in order to get more land drops, and that you usually play a good amount of permission (I lean towards more than most probably) since being able to draw 3 and then counter whatever they do is so ridiculous as you can then untap with lots of cards, them often tapped out and rdy to be punished.

I'm starting to get the feel that you value individual card strength in the deck very highly, not only when it comes to Strix (who clearly just replaces itself right away and then gains tremendous value any time it blocks a big threat) but because of the fact that you dislike targeted discard, don't like playing cantrips and maxing out on Deeds, on top of seeming to want A LOT of lands. I think 23 is a lot for legacy and when I played 24 in a BantStill list with Loam I often felt incredibly flooded and that was with like 10-11 fetch and Sensei Top.
Now, I like your reasonings for why Strix is good as I have stated before but I am still unsure if it is necessarily the direction the deck wants to go. For specific metagames I am sure that max Deeds and max Strix are amazing but when building a list for a open legacy metagame with a wide variety of archetypes and ways to build them I generally prefer to keep my deck very flexible, able to play itself out of most situations, while retaining as much power as possible. This probably leads to more 55-45% type matchups instead of having some 70% and other 30%. I am not saying my approach is better or worse, and you guys clearly have a lot more experience with this archetype so this is mostly for discussions sake.

My reasoning for playing spells like Disfigure, Spell Snare and targeted discard is, as I have alluded to before, that I keep most of my deck able to deal with a variety of threats, both reactively and proactively, at a cheap price and preferably instant speed. This does a few things I think.
1) It should allow me to play fewer lands while still being able to function in the early turns, which should also be a blessing versus mana disruptive decks like RUG with Stifle etc.
2) By playing a few cantrips and lower numbers of narrower cards like Disfigure, Spell Snare, Abrupt Decay, I am more able to find the pieces I need for a specific MU while getting rid of the superflous ones like Deed vs some combo decks etc. This is also the reason I'm currently at 3 Deed but perhaps I should add one to sb or even main just because that card's powerlevel is sooo high.
3) It gives me a lot more ways to handle the t 1-3 threats of my opponent which hopefully allows me to resolve Standstill more easily, earlier and more reliably. I assume this is what the deck aims to accomplish. Granted with fewer super high impact plays each draw off of a Standstill will be less valuable, and this is probably why your list does so well, because you draw so powerful cards. However since I still remain at a high count of Deed, Standstill and Jace I feel my Standstills aren't much worse.
4) They increase the effectiveness of Snapcaster mage by a lot. Strix can't be snapped. Also snapping say Abrupt Decay or even Dimir Charm is kind of expensive. By playing more 1 mana spells the deck runs smoother to begin with by having a lower curve and also your Snapcaster mages become cheaper in general.

Of course this is mostly theory or based on general Magic experience rather than experience with BUG Still lists so take it with a grain of salt but please consider the merits to my reasoning and if you can relate it to your own experiences please share why or why not you agree or disagree!

As for Strix specifically I feel like with 3 Snapcaster, 2 Clique, plenty of manlands, 4 targeted removal spells, 4 targeted discards spells, 3 Deed as mass removal and 7 Permission spells that can handle creatures, my deck is already overloaded with efficient ways to deal with attacking creatures, the only downside being that they don't cantrip themselves. But maybe we do run out of steam anyways occasionally and Strix fixes that. Also I am at 26 blue cards in my list so the fact that Strix is a "blue removal spell" isn't that relevant for me as my FoW are really solid already.

I am going to try out both approaches to the build but I feel that mixing and matching might hurt the strengths of each approach and best results are probably yielded by either going a more mana hungry and powerful route with Strix, max Deeds, no discard and plenty of draw and lands, or by making the deck sleeker, faster and more flexible to more often achieve the late game where lands and Jace can take over instead of trying to overpower the opponent. Which is better is probably very context dependant but I would like to know more if you have just tried some of the cards I'm using in your general list without actually going all the way. Maybe there is more for all of us to explore? :)

For Dimir charm, what sorceries beside Hymn and ShownTell do feel are strong enough to warrant it's inclusion? My reasoning is that Spell Snare handles Hymn and stuff like Infernal Tutor or Wishes just as well, and also deals with a lot of the problematic 2 drops that we really want to stop before Standstilling like Bob, SFM, Goyf, CB etc. It's not removal but running 4 targeted discard and 2 disfigure on top of all the other permission and Decays can most likely handle the creatures that slip through. I do like flexible cards like that though, and usually overvalue them probably, so Dimir Charm seems interesting!

I feel like I have forgetted 70% of what I wanted to write about but this post is already long so I'll let you all respond while I think of more topics. I am super excited to put some lists together and get out of this Terminus trap I've been living in! ;)

Arianrhod

04-11-2013, 02:16 PM

I've kept my maindeck pretty close to the same:

2 Snapcaster Mage

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell

2 Disfigure
2 Innocent Blood
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Maelstrom Pulse

3 Pernicious Deed

4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
1 Life from the Loam

4 Jace the Mind Sculptor

4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland
4 Mishra’s Factory
1 Creeping Tar Pit

The sideboard changes pretty erratically based on what I'm expecting, but there's almost always a pair of Vendilion Cliques, and 3-4 Leylines for graveyard hate.

My thoughts on some hotly debated cards:

-) Strix.

I like Strix as a card, I really do. The problem is, I like the spell-based options instead. I play the deck a bit more as revolving around Standstill. This means I play very cautiously, leaving mana up, Brainstorming aggressively with Jace, and so on. It also means that I would rather have more instants in the deck to draw into. Yes, Strix can solve a Tarmogoyf just as well as a Spell Snare can. But I'd rather Snare the Goyf than Strix the Goyf -- it takes less mana, for one, and Snare has additional combo ramifications (yes, Dimir Charm. Moment.)

While I believe that Strix is certainly a viable option should you want to run it, I personally prefer to have more spells and fewer creatures.

-) Dimir Charm.

I think Dimir Charm is a solid option, and I've been contemplating replacing one or both Disfigures with them. However, the issue there is that Disfigure kills 1-drops on t1's endstep, which leaves the board open for a t2 Standstill. Having to Dimir Charm the 1-drop means that you don't get to drop Standstill on an empty field. The other line of play is to FoW the 1-drop, then slam Standstill to refuel. But this seems like a subpar line to me -- I'd rather just solve their 1-drop with my 1-drop, then hold Force for something scarier (or ideally to hardcast later). So, yet again, mana conservation.

-) Snare.

If you aren't running Strix/Charm, I think this is a no-brainer. Regardless, Snare serves another role in a more traditional, spell-based landstill list like mine: if you're on the draw, you can counter their 2-drop. Ie, let's say Jund starts off land, pass....or land, Thoughtseize. You play land and pass back. They drop a Goyf, and you have a Standstill in hand. Snare dat bitch. There's obviously the Hymn argument, but that's been used into the ground. You can also stop Stoneforge Mystic with it, which has been relevant in my experience -- if you have a slower hand with like Deed/Jace/etc, SFM can open up a window to sneak in Batterskull if it resolves, which can be a problem.

Also, if you think that Deed is fast enough to answer most of the things that you would want to Snare, you're sorely mistaken and will one day be punished for it. Deed is a good catchall, and it IS amazing right now in general....but you're going to get punched, hard, if you rely on it too heavily. You need spot removal and spot counter to maintain control of the game to the point where Deed can take over completely.

-) Manlands.

I agree with Viridia/Chimera here. 4 Factories is mandatory. Factory is at the heart and soul of this deck. Creepy Pit....I dunno. I like him as a 1-of, honestly. I'd rather have more lands that come into play untapped than support a 2nd Creepy Pit. My build also runs a Loam maindeck, so I can get it back. Also, old 43lands trick: when you're ready to start punching with Tar Pit, make sure you leave a wasteland up. That way if they try to Swords your Pit, you can Waste it in resp. and Loam it back later.

Chimera87

04-11-2013, 03:17 PM

I will see if I can reply to the comments/questions given above tomorrow.

First, I'd like some comments on the list I am planning to run for GP Strassbourg this weekend. Today, Viridia and I discussed the deck and we decided on this:

Land (24)
3x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
4x Tropical Island
4x Underground Sea
2x Island
1x Swamp
2x Creeping Tar Pit
4x Mishra's Factory

Instant (16)
3x Abrupt Decay
4x Brainstorm
1x Counterspell
4x Force of Will
2x Spell Pierce
2x Dimir Charm
Creature (8)
4x Baleful Strix
3x Snapcaster Mage
1x Vendilion Clique
Enchantment (8)
4x Pernicious Deed
4x Standstill
Planeswalker (4)
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Garruk Relentless

Sideboard (15)
4x Surgical Extraction
2x Flusterstorm
3x Thoughtseize
1x Life from the Loam
1x Golgari Charm
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Memoricide

Basic changes from the list I have been testing for a while:
-1 Vendilion Clique +1 Garruk Relentless in the main. I'm quite unsure about this. I love a second Clique main, but since I've tested Elspeth in my Esper build, I wanted something similar in BUG. Perhaps Garruk Relentless can fill this slot.
-1 Krosan Grip +1 Memoricide in the board. I'm expecting quite the number of Punishing Fires and this card answers them, while also providing utility against Combo/Control.

Thoughts?

Arianrhod

04-11-2013, 03:41 PM

-) I feel like 4 Jace should be required...certainly over Garruk R. Garruk R. is a good card, don't get me rid -- but IMO he would be the 5th walker, not the 4th. The deck is just always better with a Jace in place, and it can be somewhat lackluster at pressuring opposing Jaces. You also can't really abuse Garruk R. -- he's just a token guy for you. You can't like pseudo-Survival off and such.

-) I don't like your basically complete lack of "big dude kill" in the maindeck. If they Tombstalker, I guess your out is to bounce it with Jace? Otherwise, what do? Or Deed for like a million, I guess. Some of that might be colored by the fact that I mostly play Nic Fit, so I'm always conscious of having a plan to deal with that matchup should I run into it when I'm NOT playing Nic Fit. I'd still like to see 1 Pulse main with the second in the board, though.

Those are really my only two complaints. I mean, I have philosophical differences, as noted above, with some of your choices -- but working within your paradigm, I think the list looks pretty solid.

Iron Buddha

04-11-2013, 04:15 PM

But I think you need 4 Pernicious Deed, because it is your only way out if you fall behind. In Nic Fit you still have a plan B, that is, ramping into a monster.

The Treefolk Master

04-11-2013, 05:07 PM

I
The sideboard changes pretty erratically based on what I'm expecting, but there's almost always a pair of Vendilion Cliques, and 3-4 Leylines for graveyard hate.

What would you recommend for a combo heavy metagame? (about 30%, I have done the complete breakdown and math but posting all the stats sounds a bit obnoxious).

Also, why Leyline over other options such as Nihil Spellbomb or S. Extraction? Do you value the permanent exiling effect so highly? Please note that this is coming from someone who is the all time master of drawing Leyline (any Leyline) T1.

eldpojken

04-11-2013, 05:47 PM

Chimera:
First things first, Good Luck at the GP this weekend! Hope to see you pilot BUGStill under the camera come sunday! :)

Arianrhod:
Thanks for the detailed response. It seems we have a similar philosophy regarding the deck and Standstill in general, with being spell heavy with lots of instants. This is also big part of the reason why I like Snapcaster so much in the deck and I have even contemplated going up to the full 4. By the same token this is the reason why I really like Clique in the deck as it both complements the Instant/Flash nature of the build and also this deck can really utilize the bodies of Snap and Clique thanks to manland aggression as I have previously noted. I don't think I would ever play less than 1 Clique md since the opportunity cost for doing so is pretty low but I could see 1 main 1 sb. Atm with all the Esper running around I prefer 2 main though as they are really good at both pressuring Jace as well as keeping Batterskull in check.

I agree with you on Strix and it seems we are coming from basically the same reasoning regarding the card. Considering how highly Chimera and Viridia speaks of it though I feel the need to try both with and without it sometime to get a feel for how it plays in practice.

It seems we are also in agreement on both Dimir Charm and Spell Snare, and your description of how Deed can be a tad slow is precisely what I am fearing and why I really like running either a lot of cheap spot removal, cheap permission and/or targeted discard to ensure you can get to Deed without falling too far behind.

It seems all of you think 4 Mishra is the way to go so I'm gonna adjust for that, probably by only playing 1 Tar Pit to begin since I am running fewer lands than you guys overall and really feel that the mana base should be kept as fast and resilient as possible.

Taking all of your advice into consideration I have come to realize that if I do fall behind, especially versus bigger threats I don't really have much to respond with since Disfigure only gets the small threats, Decay has similar issues and Deed is expensive. Granted I have some permission and Thoughtseizes but they require more timing and can't be drawn into to handle situations that are already in place. As such I think I'm going to cut 1 Ponder for 1 Pulse in the main and keeping at least 1 Pulse in the sb. I'm considering getting a second Pulse in the main though I do feel is a bit expensive and can probably be kept in sb for matchups that actually pack large enough threats.

EDIT: After some further deliberation I have come to the conclusion that I want the 4th Standstill after all considering how much my list is geared towards resolving it. I prefer it over the 4th Jace for those reasons as well as Jace being more of a midgame card while Standstill can be played early if allowed to. The 2nd Ponder I had seemed like the most natural cut for it since for one you all seem to agree on cantrips not being that great for the deck and two since they fill somewhat similar roles. I'm still considering getting a 2nd Pulse or the 4th Deed into the main but there isn't much I'd like to cut. Possibly 1 Clique to the sb or maybe one inquisition. I really like the singleton Counterspell as a very good midgame draw, especially with so many Snapcasters in the deck, but playing too many Counterspell can probably be a big liability considering its mana cost and the fact that it is UUU to Snap.

Other than that I am really liking where my list is at. Here is the updated one for reference:

CREATURES (5)
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique

ENCHANTMENTS (6)
4 Standstill
3 Pernicious Deed

SORCERIES (6)
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
1 Maelstrom Pulse

INSTANTS (17)
4 Brainstorm
2 Disfigure
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
1 Counterspell
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will

PLANESWALKERS (3)
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

LANDS (23)
4 Mishra’s Factory
1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Swamp

SIDEBOARD
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Duress
2 Hydroblast
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Perish
2 Engineered Plague
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Batterskull

Also thoughts on Batterskull in the sb for grindy control mirrors to get a completely different angle of attack, and potentially vs burn heavy strategies to get some lifegain after stabilizing in order to not just die to topdecked burn considering we don't have anything like Counterbalance to protect us?

Chimera:
I really think your list looks really solid after deciding to go the Strix route. My biggest concern is having enough targets for 3 Snapcasters, especially since you aren't running any 1 cc removal which makes Snapcaster a really expensive spell for you, which might be a problem considering that your overall curve is quite high.

I am not a big fan of Garruk Relentless either but he is probably fine if you really want that type of effect.

Also would you mind elaborating a bit on you running 4 Seas and 4 Trops instead of maybe more fetches or basics for instance? Do you really feel that many colored lands are necessary?

I like the Memoricide (or Cranial) as I said before because otherwise I am not really sure what our plan versus active PFire is going to be considering all our threats basically die to it and Grove conveniently gets around both Surgical as well as Extirpate.

How has the Golgari Charm been for you? Seems kind of underwhelming no? Also what about Flusterstorm.. perhaps Spell Pierce is better as I feel they are about the same in most combo MU's except Pierce can be used to fight Planeswalkers in control mirrors etc.

Also not a huge fan of either Ensnaring Bridge considering we are a deck that can really fill up our hand and I also don't like Loam that much without complementing Wastelands and I don't really like that plan atm as I have stated previously.

Ofc all of these are rather minor concerns and overall I think your list, especially with the experience you seem to have with it, should be a very good choice for the GP!

eldpojken

04-15-2013, 03:02 PM

Oh mama, what a weekend. I didn't get to follow the GP coverage all that much but I did jam a lot of games with BUGStill. If I remember correctly it was something like, 2-1 vs RUG, 3-0 vs Esper, 2-3 vs Jund(punshing), 0-2 vs Show n Tell and finally 8-5 or so total split across 3 differently tweaked BUG Nic Fit lists (maybe it was more games, it is a bit blurry at this point).

First and foremost: I love this deck! Overall it plays exactly like I had hoped, very smooth, able to get out of most situations, has a very solid fundamental gameplan that is inherently powerful, very disruptive, efficient and well protected.
Secondly: I only played pre board games so all information is obviously skewed and the sample size is really small.
Third: I think that in spite of #2 I got a good feel for how the deck plays, what is good and what isn't on a strategical level and got some nice evaluation on card choices.

Let's begin!

Strix: As I played I tried to think about situations that arose in which I would've liked to have Strix. Even vs RUG and Jund, where is seems like it should be pretty good, I rarely felt that it was something I really wanted. It probably would have been slightly more powerful than some of the answers I did play but FAR from enough better that it would've been worth it to give up a very versatile slot in many matchups for the much narrower Strix. It feels way to slow to sneak in before a Standstill and then play Still on the following turn and the creatures you really care about needs to not hit the board at all since they can arrive sooner than you are able to drop Strix much of the time or they simply don't care about attacking and strix was just a UB: cycle at sorcery speed, completely putting me behind in tempo.

I still think it would be worth it to try it for myself considering the strong following it has here but I will probably wait with that until I have tested a lot more with my current version (while still considering Strix's impact in coming matches).

Standstill: It is now abundantly clear to me that the deck REALLY wants 4 Standstill. This is especially true with a list like mine where so many of the cards are geared towards handling early game threats and pave the way for you to drop Standstill. In many games, once the first Standstill resolved, a chain started where I basically could counter whatever spell they played and then just drop a new Standstill, and keep going while establishing more and more land drops and eventually just starving my opponent on cards, or dropping a protected Jace which quickly sealed the deal. In all the games where I drew multiple Standstills I still didn't have much issues with either using them for FoW fodder, Brainstorming them away, or just dropping them into somewhat scary board states feeling confident that in a few turns I would still have the superior board state and forcing them to break Standstill.

This is another thing I realized.. Standstill can be played into much more dangerous boards than I expected and I feel it is a testament to how strong the manlands in the deck are. I agree on 4 Mishra's though I'll get to some remarks below.

Thoughtseize/Inquisition: Man oh man, I cannot for the life of me understand why people aren't playing these maindeck. In so many games they were key components in allowing me to disrupt my opponent's early game enough to allow me to play Standstill or just outright cripple him that I could win with anything. In conjuction with Snapcaster mage they disassemble so many types of hands and they were really good vs the aggressive decks as well as the controlling (and obviously one of your best tools vs combo decks). I like the 2/2 split in the md as lifeloss from Thoughtseize really can add up, especially when Snapcasting, and Inquisition still takes all the things you want to take in the early turns when trying to resolve Standstill (except FoW, but you can take most blue cards and most decks run so greedy on their bluecount this often probably makes them unable to FoW. In either case you still have your own FoWs).

Even in many mid games where we either played draw-go under Standstill, or we just were in a control mirror and had lots of cards, they proved valuable in not only still taking relevant spells, but also giving the information that makes them so good and allows you to formulate your gameplan which really helps you evaluate which threats needs to be Forced and which can be ignored.

I think additional discard in the form of either Thoughtseize or Duress (or a mix) has a place the SB, maybe 2 slots as you don't want to overload on this effect.

Deed: Oddly enough Deed was slightly underwhelming tough occasionally amazing. I don't think I would ever play 4 Deed maindeck unless I was in a crazily slanted metagame in which they were superb. I'd rather go to 2 than 4 if anything but I like 3 since I am not playing that many removal spells compared to many other lists. I can see the 4th in the board (or just other mass removal options like Perish etc). They were sometimes clunky, bad in multiples, and expensive but at other times buys you a lot of time by just being on the battlefield as well as allowing you to get out of situations few other cards could. Strong spell, still a reason to play BUG over something else, but slightly overrated imo.

Maelstrom Pulse: Was really "meh" in all games I saw it. It did what the card reads but for 3 mana, green and black at that which was more relevant than expected, and sorcery speed it is kind of lackluster. As I said in another post it is like my only out to falling behind to a big threat but after thinking about it I realized that I (and probably many others playing control) likes the feeling of knowing that they always have an out. In actuality though, even in a blue Legacy deck, the percentages of finding your few outs in the in such situations are pretty low and giving up percentages every other time when the card is inefficient should not be forgotten. Overall the deck is really strong at NOT falling behind in the first place, which is really where you want to be with a Standstill deck, and the times that you do fall behind I think it is reasonable to just make the concession to accept the loss and move on and focus on strengthening the decks main gameplan.

I'd probably play 1-2 in the sideboard as it can be good and is versatile, and in BUG it offers an effect that makes it worth going into green for, so it is always an option.

Snapcaster Mage: Really strong overall but he did cause a few games where I had multiples and few relevant targets in my GY. Occassionally was a bit expensive as well, but he is so often so good that the power he brings is worth these sacrifices. I would not play 4 though with these things in mind and I could see going down to 2 but I liked him quite a bit so for now I'm staying at 3. He was less good at pressuring Loyalty and Life than expected but the manlands and Cliques were better than expected and it could also just have been a sample size related thing. He is very good in this deck with my spell splits of 2 Disfigure, 2 Decay, 2 Pierce, 2 Snare and Counterspell, being very versatile and allowing you to adapt to matchups and situations in a very fluid manner.

Vendilion Clique: Overperformed like a champ! Wow, possibly MVP, though that probably goes to Standstill. Clique allowed me so many nice plays where I just played it sometime during their turn, be it drawstep, in combat or end step, either disrupting their hand or drawing an answer which tapped them out and set them back in tempo allowing me to untap and drop Standstill (+threat oftentimes). The Clique pressured hard, often putting on such a good clock alone (or with a land) that the opponent had to expend time and resources just to deal with the Clique which in turn gave me a lot of time to setup for the long game. I still like 2 as the Legendary part can be bothersome but I would definitely not cut one from the main at this time, especially with all these Esper decks and Sneak n Show running rampant.

As for the afformentioned spell split: Both Disfigure and Spell Snare were completely amazing and outdid expectations by quite a bit. Pierce was as solid as always while Decay was a bit underwhelming. I like all the numbers still as you do want a couple of Decays to deal with problematic permanenttypes but their cost is rather prohibitive and slow. Disfigure on the other hand was so efficient and dealth with everything from Delvers, Bobs, DRS, Mystics (into Thoughtseize their Batterskull), Eternal Witnesses (allowing me to attack Jace with lands that needs activation costs) and even the mighty Talrand, Sky Summoner! They were amazing in conjuction with Snapcaster, sometimes making a surprise block + Disfigure to take out largers threats.

Spell Snare was equally great hitting all kinds of things, at all stages of the games, at just as low price as Disfigure. Needless to say they were just as good with Snapcaster. I could see both of these 2 spells going up to 3 depending on what meta you expect but it is hard to find slots.

I like 2 Pierce md as they are really good but a bit anti synergistic with you wanting to go long. Also a lot of the things you need to deal with in the early game to drop Standstill are creatures making Pierce sometimes not ideal. I could see playing some in the sb as well but I'll get to that as I think Negate is a good alternative.

Counterspell and FoW: The deck wants 4 FoW and if you don't have that (and sufficient blue count) you are probably playing Standstill wrong, no matter what type of list you have. They synergy between them is so incredibly strong and FoW is the perfect card for not only drawing into (or the blue cards for it) once Standstill is broken but also the fastest and most flexible answer to anything that could harm you in the early turns. Don't sell yourself short, play 4.

Counterspell is a weird thing in the deck because it plays really well with the Standstill plan, especially in the lategame and beyond, and in a "perfect" world I'd like to play 4 of them sort of. But it does get quite restricted by your 3-color mana base with at least 4 colorless lands, when most of your support cards also cost mana of both of your support colors. There were several times that G and B was a bit of an issue to begin with and also getting UU as fast as possible when playing 4 Mishra can be a bit tricky. You do get lots of blue mana eventually though.

I think that for now I'm going to go up to 2 Counterspell after cutting the Pulse as I want to test more and see how the mana works. Speaking of mana..

Bayou: After having a couple of games where I really wanted to fetch Bayou, as well as feeling that I do get plenty of blue sources after a few turns each game (especially since we are not playing top that bogs down our colored sources even more potentially), I cut one basic Island for a Bayou and was happy with it and never dissapointed. This might change after playing many more games where there might be apparent weaknesses of the Bayou. We'll see.
EDIT: I should probaly note that I have adjusted the fetches to 4 Delta, 4 Misty, 1 Verdant Catacomb to accomodate this change.

I am also unsure of the basic Swamp. Sometimes I would have draws with Swamp, Mishra and maybe Tar Pit for instance and feel really slow out the games with the lack of blue mana for Pierce and Snare on top of the need to Brainstorm and in others I had a fetch instead of Tar Pit but then I needed to fetch blue to play Brainstorm and then be unable to fetch, or just had Counterspell and Clique in hand needed UU. On the other hand I like having at least 2 basics, not only for the Explorer matchups, but RUG, Jund and other Wasteland decks in general. I think 1 Basic Island is probably fine though. I also never had a problem with only 3 of each blue dual and just fetches for the rest but maybe that was due to sample size also.

I only played 1 Tar Pit, and while it was often great, especially in control mirrors, it did cause some slow starts, especially in conjuction with Mishra, which makes me skeptical to go to 2. I would never go to 2 while staying on 23 land I think and would still be skeptical at 24.

23 lands I think is good with the current curve I'm running. In most games where I was landlight I managed to wiggle my way out of it, in most games I hit my land drops constistently (which we REALLY need which in turn is an argument for playing more land) but I also had more games where I flooded out even after 1-2 Standstill than I had games where I was mana screwed so.. for now I think I'll stick with 23 in this build.

Finally Jace: 3 minimum, I can see 4, especially if you are playing more land, but when you are playing 4 Standstill (which you should) you usually find your Jace for the time that you need it. It's possible I should just be cutting something for the 4th but I think I only feel that way since our local meta is inbred with control and in general it is better to hedge against the field and only play 3 (at least md).

I think that covers the entire md basically and overall I am super happy with the list and quite surprised that I want to change so little. Again, the sample size is clearly very small and when sideboarding enters the picture changes might have to be made to the maindeck in order to accomodate the sb so we will see what the future brings.

This bring me to the sb and right now I haven't thought that much about it. As I said earlier I think Negate seems like a really strong card in a Snapcaster deck and I really like that it is U1 considering your 4 Mishra. It seem strong versus both Combo and Control and I'll start with 2 I think.

For GY hate I currently like 2 Surgical and 1 Nihil Spellbomb, as the Surgicals synergize very well with Snapcaster and the 1 Spellbomb doesn't clear your own yard for your Snapcasters and can be brought in vs some control decks for taking out Lingering souls or what have you while still cycling, potentially vs Goyf or Knight decks and still cycle etc. I like it over Relic since we are black and play Snapcaster, as well as it being faster. If you are really worried about GY in your meta I could see just playing Leylines though.

I like a few discard spells as I said but I'm not so sure on Batterskull anymore. I don't really think you need the effect vs control and it is probably just too slow to matter vs burn strategies. I'm also thinking that it might be best to just ignore burn alltogether and not play stuff like Chill or Hydroblast as you probably need like at least 4 slots to have a meaningful impact on very few MUs that are probably not that great anyway.

Some Pulse/Decay/Deed/Perish/Krosan Grip mix seems nice to better handle annoying permanents and more mass removal is probably warrented in some metas. I like cards like Perish because of Snapcaster. After the GP it seems Dread of Night be on the table again though it is kinda annoying in a Deed deck. Engineered Plague might be good enough instead and survives many Deed situations but I feel it is kinda narrow and a bit slow and clunky, but if you expect a lot of Goblins and such it is probably wise. Engineered Explosives might also be a thing.

Lastly I have considering adding 1 Life from the Loam to the board after all as it seems like a very good control trump with all these delicous manlands, as well as having applications vs Wasteland decks. In many games I was just stalling by chumping Mishras to Thragtusk with Jace in play, or buying time to race with Tar Pit or Clique, and having a way to reuse these lands seem pretty strong. This could also be complimented by a Wasteland in the board to bring in where you really need land drops as the 24th land, as well as being an answer to Punishing Fire (albeit a slow one) but at least then you have some extra ways to beat PFire in conjuction with Cranial/Memoricide.

Ok so there you have it. My huge ass recap of the weekend. I'm looking forward to hearing stories from the GP from those who participated and ofcourse any input on my list, thoughts or just your own lists. Any critisism is appreciated. Hopefully someone reads this cuz my fingers and elbows hurt.

Much Love BUGStill affecionadas!
//Fireboy

somethingdotdotdot

04-16-2013, 10:29 AM

eldpojken

04-16-2013, 11:53 AM

I random card I just thought of that may help the deck: Drop of Honey. Probably better in the sideboard, but dropping it basically means that you can drop standstill the next regardless of what creatures your opponents put down (provided they haven't completely overloaded the board). It also works double duty as hate versus snt if you have it in hand.

I also want to play the abyss in here really badly, but I dont really know if it fits well enough.

For the grindier control matches, have you considered the good ol' worm harvest? Its slow and vulernable, but it can do wonders versus control decks that dont have jitte active.

If I am not mistaken you can not play Drop of Honey onto an empty board since it will just have to sacrifice to itself, which means that if they play another threat they will have 2 in play when it is time for you to destroy with Honey and then try to play Standstill. Interesting idea but alas doesn't seem to work very well.

Worm Harvest seems way to expensive and slow to me, especially considering there are both a lot of Deathrite Shamans running around but also because I think you are likely to face cards like Nihil Spellbomb or Relic as 1-2 ofs postboard vs some control decks, especially in game 3s if they see you brought in Loam. I think Loam is probably not even worse than Worm Harvest as a trump and you have the possibility of saving it from GY hate through Brainstorm. Of course the fact that it costs 2 and is applicable in many more matchups also makes me feel like it is a much better slot for the sb.

somethingdotdotdot

04-16-2013, 12:08 PM

eldpojken

04-16-2013, 03:45 PM

You don't play the drop of honey on an empty field. If they drop a creature, then you drop it. In this situation it means that they can either slow down their game or lose cards to drop of honey. If they have two creatures, on your upkeep you kill one and drop the standstill. Next turn they can either break the standstill or lose all of their creatures. Win win.

Worm harvest is quite vulernable and I'm not sure its worth it, but it can be amazing when it gets going. I just have a soft spot for the card in this deck.

Oh yeah, you're right. That's not half bad, especially considering it can deal with things like Tombstalker (since you probably can remove the other creature if they have one if you are really pressured) for 1 mana. I suppose it is decent vs Sneak n Show as well, although it's probably just as bad as everything else vs that incredibly broken Sneak Attack. And of course Griselbrand just laughs all over it anyway like with any other "answer" to him .. ;p /cry

Worth testing nonetheless!

Yeah I kind like Worm Harvest as a card in general but it seems too weak for its cost, speed (or lack thereof) and vulnerability.

Ayotte

04-20-2013, 11:50 AM

What do you guys think of this list? It's my first attempt. Is 22 lands too few? I feel like DRS is very good with standstill, and he also acts as a mana source when necessary. I see a lot of lists here with 23/24 lands, but no DRS.

3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Jace TMS

4 Standstill
3 Pernicious Deed

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
2 Thoughtseize

2 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Swamp

SB
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Engineered Plague
2 Damnation
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Life from the Loam
2 Flusterstorm
3 Krosan Grip

eldpojken

04-20-2013, 07:50 PM

Yeah that list seems fine.
A few things though. First I dislike playing 2 discard spells. I'd either play 4 or 0 maindeck. I'm not sure if that is mathematically logical but with 4 you get one in the early game quite reliably and with that comes the option of Snapping it early. With 2 it feels so unreliable for the early game and then you'll just end up drawing them at inopportune moments in the midgame. The same is of course true, and even more so, if you have more in your deck, but at the same time you have usually established a better early game if you had one then.

Secondly I'm not so sure I like 2 Counterspell, maybe not even 1, in that list as you are more focused on tapping out early and will sometimes have trouble both having double blue as well as wanting to hold mana back. Fwiw I think Spell Snare is really good, and with DRS I think it is even nicer to play more solid 1cc spells as you get such smooth openings with for instance t1 DRS, t2 Standstill with Snare backup for their break which can give you huge tempo gains. Same with t1 DRS into t2 discard and then Standstill etc.

You do improve your opponents removal spells by quite a lot when playing DRS with so few other big threat creatures like Tarmogoyf though. Manlands you can wait to activate and Snap/Clique have already genereted value if they get removed so by just adding DRS their potentially semi-dead removal becomes much better. Also manlands don't die to Abrupt Decay which is not irrelevant.

Overall DRS is so strong that it might be worth to include anyway, but at that point you are treading very close to maybe just being better off playing Gerrys Shardless version, which I think is supersolid fwiw after thinking about that archetype more.

I really don't like your sb though, especially the 3 Krosan Grips. Many clunky and expensive cards.

jamis

04-20-2013, 08:18 PM

I feel that if you're going to play 2 basics, you want those to be forest and swamp so you can Abrupt Decay/Pernicious Deed a Blood Moon or Back to Basics. Island doesn't really help you get out of those situations.

Ayotte

04-20-2013, 11:29 PM

Thanks for the advice. And yeah, I threw the sideboard together without really much thought. I don't yet know what cards I want for certain matchups with this deck.

That's a good point about DRS putting me very close to shardless BUG. If I were to drop them I would probably add 2 Lilianas and 2 Thoughtseizes in their place. I'm using counterspell now instead of spell snare because I don't own spell snare and I wasn't sure if I would even like it if I bought it - and I hate buying $10 uncommons >>

Nastaboi

04-21-2013, 01:44 AM

I've been playing DRS just because. Sometimes they eat early removal, but I'm fine with that, because then they have used their first turn not advancing their own game plan, and I have already gained tempo. And when they don't, the upside is huge. They also give some game against Dredge in metas where it is relevant. The main downside is that they eat slots for the real disruption cards.

I play now 2 Inquisition / 1 Seize main and three discard spells is enough to draw one early enough. Would not play just two though, but three is fine if you can't find room for 4th.

Basic island is to play around Wasteland, not so much moon effects. Swamp + DRS lets you kill moons.

Counterspell also works well with DRS: leave Sea and DRS up, counter if you have to and if not, make them take 2 and all mana has been used efficiently. I also play with just two Counterspells now, but might try again some Snare/Pierce split if I can make room.

Another tournament today, we'll see how I fare.

Adryan

04-21-2013, 05:06 AM

Playing BUG and not playing Life from the Loam and Wasteland is stupid.
At GP Strassbourg RUG Delver was 13% and Jund about 10%.

I don't like playing some narrow Sideboard cards to combat Punishing Fire.
Also Strix is not very good against Punishing Jund and RUG Delver (Black/Blue mana is a lot against RUG Delver that it can be pyroblasted).

I'd rather play Innocent Blood. Garruk is very stupid in the current meta (~20% red) and the flipped version dies to Abrupt Decay.

I also don't get the point why you don't want discard in the maindeck. It gives you information, removes threats and helps you resolve Jace and Standstill.

Viridia

04-21-2013, 05:22 AM

Adryan

04-21-2013, 09:09 AM

Have you at any point properly tested with the archetype?
Looking at your comments, you probably didnt.
Wasteland isn't really what the deck wants. Sure you'd like 1 or 2 to get rid of the occasional annoying lands, but you're never going to be wastelocking or gainng any tempo from actively wasting in this deck.

Strix is pretty much insane vs RUG Delver, if they can't instantly bolt it. Vs Punishing fire, is's meh, but so is the rest of the deck, hence the fringe cards to deal with it in the SB.

Playing discard maindeck is something always up for debate. Chimera and i found that we really only want the MD discard vs Combo and that it's not that great, or near useless vs aggro/midrange/control.

I did. I tested enough to realize that you need Wasteland in the current meta. Without you just autolose to Punishing Fire, Academy Ruins and random stuff like Dark Depths and Volraths Stronghold. While i did not play UBGx Landstill at the GP, i realized that Jund and RUG would be very popular and therefore Life from the Loam and Wasteland are necessary in this archetype and that Garruk Relentless is bad because of the abundance of bolt effects.

I don't want to gain Tempo with Wasteland, it just acts as a wincon against some decks and i don't want to lose G1 against Maverick with P. Fire. In my testing i found Innocent Blood to be better against RUG Delver than Strix, because Strix can be targeted by Spell Snare, Daze (3 CMC is a lot against RUG Delver) and Pyroblast. I always found Discard useful against every archetype, because of the information and because of the fact that it removes threats against RUG Delver etc.

Arianrhod

04-29-2013, 09:26 AM

For reference, my current maindeck:

2 Snapcaster Mage

4 Standstill
3 Pernicious Deed

4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
1 Dimir Charm
2 Disfigure
2 Abrupt Decay

2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Innocent Blood
1 Life from the Loam

4 Mishra's Factory
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Wasteland
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou

My sideboard changes per event (I'm in the "rebuild your board before every event" camp), but generally looks something like the following:

3 Leyline of the Void
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Perish
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Negate

Now, I'm thinking that I would like to try to squeeze in a pair of Liliana of the Veils maindeck -- or even 3 if I could somehow manage it. The deck is preset to abuse Liliana....Jace x Liliana is sordid, as is Loam + Liliana. With Standstills cracking, Brainstorms, and Jacestorms, it's not like it's hard to have a hand loaded with business even through ramping Liliana. The issue is what to cut.

I like having the 2x Blood 2x Disfigure package at cmc 1, because they allow you to get rid of whatever 1-drop your opponent has played in preparation for the turn 2 Standstill. Disfigure is usually a little better than Blood, but Blood is capable of solving Show and Tell'd monsters whereas Disfigure can't hope to answer that problem.

Dimir Charm is an easy cut for one. I know that Charm has overperformed for Viridia and Chimera; and I've heard good things about it from locals who have borrowed by deck as well -- but for me personally, it's done absolutely nothing and every time I've drawn it, I would rather that it was basically anything else.

I thought about possibly trimming 1 Pulse for the 2nd Liliana, but it's hard to pull the trigger on that because Pulse is a universal answer. Since I currently opt for 1 Tar Pit as opposed to the more "stock" 2, I lack ways to pressure planeswalkers that make it through my counterwall.

Any thoughts would be helpful.

Other changes I'm contemplating: the 2/2 Blood/Disfigure split could theoretically be discard (2 Inq/2 TSeize, probably). The discard would play better with my Surgicals, and would allow the deck to have some Esperblade-esque starts where it just shreds the opponent's hand in conjunction with Snapcaster (and then Liliana to keep them hellbent). However, I worry about losing the spot removal. I would be more okay with switching to the discard if I could find room for the Lilianas, since Jace x Liliana could replace some of the lost spot removal (I would only have the 2 Pulses and 2 Decays for spot if I made this switch).

Considering that I don't have room for a basic Forest (which would turn on Decay/Pulse/Deed under Moon), I'm thinking that I just abandon the Swamp. If I get Mooned, I have the BEBs as outs (aside from counterwall), and that's about it....so I think that if I get Mooned, I basically just shake my head and say you got me. I'm not sure what I should cut the Swamp for. I could put the 2nd Tar Pit back in, but eh. Tar Pit coming in tapped is awkward, and usually the 1-of Pit is enough for me. I'm leaning towards the 4th Sea at this point, although I could also see putting in the 8th fetch.

Chimera87

04-29-2013, 09:30 AM

Arianrhod

04-29-2013, 09:37 AM

I wouldn't run more than 1 Liliana if you only have 1 Loam (and some Snapcasters) to combo with it. I used to run 2 in my build with 1 Darkblast, 2 LftL and 1 Worm Harvest. Then it's very good, but otherwise she's not that great at 3 mana.

I would never cut the Swamp. It's awesome against RUG Tempo as it is a basic that turns on your removal (Blood and Disfigure). If you really need to cut a basic, cut the second Island, but you alreayd did that ;). Perhaps cut one of the Wastelands?

Fair.

The Wastelands have been very good to me, so I don't think that's the answer. Aside from periodic free wins, they also solve Grove of the Burnwillows, Academy Ruins, and a few other problematic lands game one. Then, game 2, I can combo them with the Surgicals to shore up some otherwise unwinnable matchups like my other deck (Scapewish) and 12post. I've never wanted the 4th, but 2 is definitely too few.

What are your thoughts on the black removal vs the discard? Obv your build's a bit differently set up, but overall? I can see arguments for both sides.

Chimera87

04-29-2013, 12:03 PM

Traditionally, you need about 8 - 10 pieces of removal in BUGstill I'd say. This used to be a combination of 4 Deed, 4 Blood, 1 Darkblast and a Pulse. Nowadays, with Decay in the meta, it's more like 4 Deed, 2 - 3 Decay (3 if you ask me) and then 2 - 4 pieces of other removal. Cutting down on removal in favor of discard seems wrong to me. I think discard should compete with countermagic, as both work before something has resolved. You need answers to resolved threats. Discard does not provide this (nor does countermagic...).

This is why, for us, Dimir Charm works. It's awesome together with Strix to remove anything. It can also serve as countermagic.

Iron Buddha

04-29-2013, 02:37 PM

Do you think that all of those 1cc removal/counterspells are worth it? If you move up to 2cc you get much sturdier removal (Abrupt Decay vs. Innocent blood/disfigure) and hard-counters. T1 Disfigure T2 Standstill only sounds cute. Btw, Raphael Levy said in his recent report for GP Strasbourg, that he has cut all of his Spell Pierces; and Spell Snare is dead against Sneak Show. You lose tempo and Standstill gets worse, but the switch to 4 Pernicious Deed, 3 Standstill makes up for that.
If you move to 2cc removal/counterspells, Ponder looks good again. In fact, I've really come to like Ponder, because it is also pretty good against combo, and makes cards like Maelstrom Pulse better (cards you normally don't run so many, but sometimes you wish you had four)

Adryan

05-01-2013, 05:57 PM

sdematt

05-10-2013, 05:00 PM

Ran this to a 3-1 finish last night:

3 Vendilion Clique
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Baleful Strix

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Standstill
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Disfigure

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Counterspell
2 Dimir Charm

3 Mishra's Factory
2 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical island
1 Bayou
---------------------------
2 Obstinate Baloth
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Engineered Plague
2 Perish
2 Flusterstorm
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
1 Duress

Lost to Goblins in 2 games, dying to a Blood Moon in Game 2; Went 2-0 against Miracles; Went 2-0 against Omniscience; Went 2-0 against Deathblade.

-Matt

Adryan

05-11-2013, 03:33 PM

sdematt

05-11-2013, 09:42 PM

Can you tell us something about your card choices and your local meta? Would you play the same list at a large event like a GP.

The local meta is usually aggro creature decks or Esperblade type decks. There seems to be a switch to combo in recent weeks.

We'll be having an event next Saturday that'll include Storm, Omni, Pox, Affinity, Esperblade, Junk, Jund, Elves, Goblins, RUG, and Bug representing.

Would I play this list in a large GP? Hard to tell. I think at the moment I would probably want to pack some Spell Pierces with all the combo around (which could replace Disfigures, which were awesome in the creature matchups by the way). In the board, you definitely want plans against Jund, which seems to be one of the harder matchups (especially with Punishing Fires).

I went to SCG Seattle and played in the Saturday Legacy grinder for a box, and went 2-2, losing in a tight 3 games to Miracles and Jund. however, subsequent Miracles testing showed that the matchup is just fine, but Jund could use some work. The two I won were against Deathblade in 2 games and a Storm deck in 2.

Esperblade's Lingering Souls is a bit of a problem at times, but E. Plague sure helps out.

I would run this deck in a GP if I felt it was better positioned than Junk, my favourite deck :tongue:

-Matt

eldpojken

05-13-2013, 11:22 AM

Purgatory

05-13-2013, 02:03 PM

Player new to the deck here, played a few hands today against enchantress (lol), UR Imperial Painter and DnT, and the deck seemed to perform really well. I love how it plays and I'm tired of flipping Delvers all day, so I'll switch to BUGstill for now.

I'd like some feedback on my list:

4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Mishra's Factory

3 Snapcaster Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare
4 Thoughtseize
3 Innocent Blood
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Life from the Loam
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Quick notes: I don't play Baleful Strix, because of no money, and though I love Disfigure, my meta has lots of Moms and Mongeese, hence Innocent Blood. Other than that, what do you guys think?

Arianrhod

05-13-2013, 02:18 PM

I have been testing with 2 Wastelands maindeck on 24 lands (4 Mishra) as well as a Loam maindeck lately.
I feel that it is not worth it. On 25 lands in a meta full of Jund maybe but I think having 6 colorless lands is just too detrimental because it makes you so vulnerable to wasteland on your colored sources making it really hard to cast Deed vs the more aggressive decks with wastelands and you don't really have time to waste them because then you'll never be able to Deed before it is too late.

Also the 1 off Bayou have been really good for me as I feel that anytime you have 2 duals in play and fetch again I always want to get the unholy trinity (trop bayou sea) in play because so often you really need all colors to play Deed and Decay and again just getting for instance 2 sea + 1 trop makes you weak to a wasteland on green etc.

The only problem I have with not playing Wastelands is basically Jund and that MU does seem hard and will need something in the board. Right now I'm back on the plan of just getting more removal in conjuction with a couple of black Leylines out of the board just to be able to fight Punishing Fire specifically but that plan does seem a little farfetched but at the same time I don't want to dilute the main and sb just for 1 MU.

The Loam keeps underperforming as I never want it in my opening hand and don't really feel the need for it in the midgame vs the grindier decks. It might be a sample size thing and that it is really good for recurring Mishra in the right MU but cutting it for now.

Disfigure and Spell Snare continue to overperform but I have cut my Spell Pierces completely as I have felt they are the weakest and most narrow between them and the 1cc discard and playing 6 cards that are pretty bad topdecks mid/late have been causing some issues. The discard has been overall great still and I wouldn't leave home without it. My blue count is a bit lowered but still 23+.

A Maelstrom Pulse has found its way back into the MD and I have one in the board still, mostly for Esper and other Lingering Souls decks. Still on the fence about it but it feels fine.

Considering going down to 2 Snapcaster Mage as they have been feeling a bit more clunky lately being a virtual 3-4cc card, especially after cutting Loam again, probably for a Decay/Disfigure/Snare.

Anyways, deck feels super solid overall and I have been liking it. I'm a bit concerned that it is just better to play Shardless BUG since the decks have a lot of similarities but they are probably better vs combo. Still ofc has some upsides as well and I prefer the style of play but yeah.. whatever.

How was your GP experience guys?

I agree with some of this.

I'm also down to 2 Wastelands (from 3), but I put in a Riptide Lab and moved one of the Cliques main, as well as added in a maindeck Venser, Shaper Savant. Haven't tested this package yet -- planning on doing so tomorrow night. The Snapcasters have been so good that I really want a way to abuse them them. Venser gives a powerful late game dimension, and Clique was being boarded in literally every single match, so I said fuck it and just moved it main. I removed the Bloods and went up the 3 Disfigure, which may well end up being a mistake (though bear in mind I have 2 Pulses maindeck for "big removal"). This change is primarily due to the increased creature velocity/importance, as well as my constant drive to make the deck as instant-speed as possible.

Loam is still in for me -- I rarely abuse it, but it gets some solid use getting back lands to Brainstorm away, cheating on Brainstorms by dredging chaff, getting back spent manlands, and so on. Tried Liliana of the Veil and hated it, so her (and the 2nd Loam in the board) are both gone.

If Punishing Fire is an issue (which is not surprising), try sideboarding 1-2 Memoricide/Cranial Extraction. That fixes the Punishing Fire problem nicely. I've also got a pair of Surgicals in my board which help out with Fires...but are more for the Groves, Cloudposts, and other such issues. Surgical + Waste on one of those lands will often cause the attending deck to fold, and such a strategy tends to be the only way to effectively fight such decks.

I don't think that Shardless is "just better" at all -- and I CERTAINLY don't think that Shardless is better vs combo than BUGstill is. Combo is actually one of Shardless' key weak points.

Ayotte

05-13-2013, 02:48 PM

I have also cut the spell pierces and moved my non-decay removal to all disfigures and 1 maelstrom pulse, and I like it a lot. The deck seems much more consistent.

I have 2 wastes and a Loam, which I liked a lot during the last 4-rounder I played in. Against decks with wasteland, it's nice to not be afraid of playing my factories, and against decks without wasteland, it's nice to be able to recur my own wastes. I had one game where loam did nothing and two where it did a lot, so I'm leaving it in for now.

I'm on one Lili, down from two, and liking that a bit more. That might be because the only time I drew her was when she would be useful.

Arianrhod

05-13-2013, 02:54 PM

It amuses me how there's a bunch of us who all seem to play the same decks overall, lol.

Ayotte, how have you found the 1-of Pulse? I've thought a couple times about dropping down to 1 Pulse (I currently run 2 Pulse, 2 Decay), but I'm always too concerned about opposing big things. This may be because I am usually the person who is inflicting those random opposing big things -- I'm not sure.

eldpojken

05-13-2013, 05:50 PM

Haha yeah Arian, 2 camps of similar lists! =)

Purgatory:
Overall your list looks absolutely fine.
Like I've alluded to in the last posts I am not a big fan of Loam but it is of course fine as others have stated, probably some preference. 2 might be overkill without more ways to really abuse them tho, especially since the 2nd almost always is dead. Maybe 2 Deed is a bit low too. Also I have been liking Disfigure over Innocent, especially in a Snapcaster heavy list, but I haven't played that much vs RUG and very few Mom decks so I am probably a bit biased. I think Mongeese you can deal with anyway though with Deed, Mishra and Clique, and vs mom decks Deed is probably very strong in general. I am also on 1 Virtue's Ruin in the board after the GP with all those DnT.

All:
I have been SUPER happy with my 2 maindeck Cliques. I think 1 main, 1 sb is the minimum and personally I could even see going as extreme as 3 maindeck with how well they have performed but I think that is probably pushing it. 2 feels really good.

Arian:
Yeah I had Cranial a few pages back and it might be the way to go but I'm concerned that is a bit too narrow and playing 2 Leyline, 1 Surgical, 1 Nihil spellbomb in the sb is a better diversifying way to both get strong GY hate slots as well as being flexible in siding in Leylines for Pfire. Surgical feels too weak to fight Pfire unless you go for the waste+grove exile as you said but since the Wastelands have been so bad for me that is not possible right now.

Yeah, ofc it's too generalizing to say "just better" but I really think, if built properly, that Shardless is much stronger vs combo than BUGStill, and in control mirrors I wonder if Visions isn't a better draw engine than Standstill as well.
I think in legacy it is too hard to control the game indefinately (vs a wide variety of decks that is) for a control deck to often just lock games out and most combo decks are so resilitent that you really need a pretty good clock, even in control decks, to have a consistent chance to beat them. I don't think BUGStills clock is quite enough for me to be comfortable, but Goyf and friends certainly are better at that job. But I only have experience with BUGStill and not Shardless so can't really make any real statements. I do agree however that many of the Shardless lists from a while back seemed really bad and not good at all at beating combo though.

Regarding Pulse:
I think it is not good enough and a bit slow vs enough decks that having 2 md concerns me. However in some MU's its so exceptional and it is nice to have an answer to big things to dig for. I like 1 md and 1 sb for now. What made me go back to that configuration from having 0 in the 75 for a while was GerryT arguing it's strength vs Esper in that it can deal with so many things from that deck (though that was for Shardless).

Ayotte

05-13-2013, 06:16 PM

I don't have an opinion on Pulse yet. I've yet to do anything with it since I added it :|

It costs a lot for a removal spell, but I feel like it's right to hedge against things that decay/disfigure/deed can't deal with.

sdematt

05-13-2013, 07:16 PM

I'm trying 3 Clique and really like it. I always end up using them all the freaking time, especially against Combo :smile:

-Matt

Purgatory

05-14-2013, 02:42 AM

Eldpojken: Cutting a Loam for a Deed I think. I have also experimented with -1 Loam +1 Intuition, which is also cool. Intuition can grab instants in a pinch and not only Loam and lands, and they're not really wasted since I have Snappy. But I agree that 2 Deeds is a bit low.

eldpojken

05-14-2013, 11:01 AM

SirTylerGalt

05-14-2013, 12:03 PM

Purg:
I have actually been trying to build Intuition based control decks in Legacy for a looong time but I can never get anything to a satisfying level. I've attempted mostly RUG shells since you can both get Loam, EE Academy ruins as well as Loam Grove Punishing Fire.

Overall the dedicated Intuition decks have been so reliant on Intuition itself that if it doesn't resolve they don't really do much which makes the deck very fragile. Also you are vulnerable to GY hate which there is obviously plenty of in the meta and you are not even doing THAT powered things.

I have also tried running a 1-of Intuition in a number of decks, mostly with Loam, but it my experience has been that it is too expensive, slow and don't do enough. What have your experiences been?

This is a little OT, but if you like Intuition, you might be interested in AJ Sacher's U/W Control deck featuring Intuition, Accumulated Knowledge, and Sapphire Medallion. He later added a very light green splash for Life From The Loam and Academy Ruins / Volrath's Stronghold (I think), but I need to re-watch the twitch.tv video to check the exact list.

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/25920_Developing-An-Intuition-For-Intuition.html

http://www.twitch.tv/ajsacher/b/393066089

eldpojken

05-14-2013, 12:52 PM

Yeah I watched it. It for sure seems better than any of the versions I built but probably not strong enough overall. I do really like medallion with Snapcaster and Repeal though!

Purgatory

05-14-2013, 04:31 PM

Purg:
I have actually been trying to build Intuition based control decks in Legacy for a looong time but I can never get anything to a satisfying level. I've attempted mostly RUG shells since you can both get Loam, EE Academy ruins as well as Loam Grove Punishing Fire.

Overall the dedicated Intuition decks have been so reliant on Intuition itself that if it doesn't resolve they don't really do much which makes the deck very fragile. Also you are vulnerable to GY hate which there is obviously plenty of in the meta and you are not even doing THAT powered things.

I have also tried running a 1-of Intuition in a number of decks, mostly with Loam, but it my experience has been that it is too expensive, slow and don't do enough. What have your experiences been?

Well, it was slow and expensive, but Loam is in itself quite slow. EOT Intuition for something like Loam, Waste, Mishra is good and as I said, in a pinch one can Intuition for answers to threats and later recur them with Snapcasters.

That said, this is only if you ever feel you need more than one Loam, and even then maybe a second Loam is better than Intuition.

mike1987

05-15-2013, 04:18 AM

What do you guys think of Liliana in the main? It serves as additional innocent blood plus with a loam engine running, it can get pretty nasty.

Arianrhod

05-15-2013, 11:46 AM

What do you guys think of Liliana in the main? It serves as additional innocent blood plus with a loam engine running, it can get pretty nasty.

I tried Liliana of the Veil, and she was bad for me. Your mileage may vary.

I took first at my local last night, going 3-0-1 against a round one bye (lol), Reanimator, BUG, and Miracles.

My tech that I was evaluating was running a creature package of 3 Snaps, 1 Clique, 1 Venser, with an attending Riptide Lab in place of the 3rd Wasteland. While the package wasn't like jaw-droppingly fantastic, it was good enough to merit further testing. The 2nd Pulse is probably going to get cut for the 3rd Decay, or possibly a Far//Away. I didn't cast a Disfigure all night, but that was primarily because of matchups, I believe. I didn't miss the Innocent Bloods in the slightest, but, again, that's probably matchup-based. An alternative that I'm considering as well is to trim out one Disfigure (leaving me with 2 main) for possibly the 2nd Clique, and then put some 1cmc removal in the sideboard.

sdematt

05-15-2013, 03:58 PM

I tried Liliana of the Veil, and she was bad for me. Your mileage may vary.

I took first at my local last night, going 3-0-1 against a round one bye (lol), Reanimator, BUG, and Miracles.

My tech that I was evaluating was running a creature package of 3 Snaps, 1 Clique, 1 Venser, with an attending Riptide Lab in place of the 3rd Wasteland. While the package wasn't like jaw-droppingly fantastic, it was good enough to merit further testing. The 2nd Pulse is probably going to get cut for the 3rd Decay, or possibly a Far//Away. I didn't cast a Disfigure all night, but that was primarily because of matchups, I believe. I didn't miss the Innocent Bloods in the slightest, but, again, that's probably matchup-based. An alternative that I'm considering as well is to trim out one Disfigure (leaving me with 2 main) for possibly the 2nd Clique, and then put some 1cmc removal in the sideboard.

My list:

3 Vendilion Clique
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Baleful Strix

3 Jace, TMS

3 Pernicious Deed
4 Standstill
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Disfigure

4 Force of Will
1 Counterspell
2 Dimir Charm
4 Brainstorm

4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
2 Island
1 Swamp
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest

--BOARD--

2 Flusterstorm
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Thoughtseize
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 The Abyss
1 golgari Charm
3 Engineered Plague

Basically switched out Obstiante Baloths for another Thrun and The Abyss. I want to try the Abyss against Jund, since they legitimately cannot remove it. Baloths were nice in the life gain, but GG is hard sometimes. Thrun is just better at dodging Fires based removal anyway.

-Matt

phazonmutant

05-15-2013, 04:18 PM

Wow, I wish that I had seen there was a BUG standstill thread when I was trying the deck out.

Matt - your list looks solid. I was unimpressed with Snapcaster as a 3-of in testing (better as a 2-of for curve reasons), but that could be due to any number of factors. Also, I think Spell Snare goes great in this deck. It's so well positioned right now. Is Dimir Charm actually good?

Hmm, no Wastelands. It seems like it would be valuable to have at least one to deal with manlands or Grove. Regarding the Jund matchup, if Punishing Fire is an issue, try Extirpate! Seriously, that card is underplayed right now. I only tested BUG landstill for a couple weeks and one tournament and I was already impressed with a 2-2 split of Extirpate and Extraction. The mana wasn't really an issue and being able to nab Bloodghasts with fetchlands on board, dredge cards with cycling lands or Street Wraith in hand, and having an uncounterable reanimator hate card was invaluable.

eldpojken

05-15-2013, 05:32 PM

I think 2.5 Snapcasters would be ideal and it is hard to say if you'd rather have 2 or 3 but I think you should avoid playing 3 unless you have enough 1cc spells like Disfigure, Spell Snare, Thoughtseize etc. If you are mainly Snapping Abrupt Decay, Counterspell etc I feel like the curve becomes so high that more than 2 can be a liability.

I have tried both with some Wastelands and without and even with only 2 (plus 4 Mishra) I had soooo many bad draws. Combined with the fact that in almost all games where I get a reasonable first 4 turns and good mana I feel so strong I think that making your manabase really solid is a high priority. Pfire is a problem though, but I don't fear many other lands than Grove.

I think Surgical is better than Extirpate at fight Pfire but both are lackluster since Grove can get around Split Second (Mana ability -> Triggered ability on Pfire). If you want to fight Pfire specifically the best way is probably just Memoricide/Cranial Extraction but that is a very narrow sideboard plan.

Arian:
I think 2 Disfigure is enough (especially if you also have 3 Decay and 1 Pulse, which is a split I like) and as I've said plenty times I love 2 md Cliques!

Matt:
Your list seems really good if you know you are going into a creature heavy meta. I'd swap the Dimir Charms for Spell Snares and maybe trim a Clique for possibly the 4th Strix if that is the meta you expect. Personally I prefer to keep a more balanced list, hence no strix and some targeted discard main.

Arianrhod

05-16-2013, 08:53 AM

This is where I'm at right now:

3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant

4 Jace, The Mind Sculptor

4 Standstill
3 Pernicious Deed

4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
2 Disfigure
1 Agony Warp
3 Abrupt Decay

1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Damnation
1 Life from the Loam

4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Riptide Laboratory
2 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Creeping Tar Pit

//SB
2 Flusterstorm
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Negate
1 Memoricide
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Echoing Truth
1 Damnation
1 Perish

2.5 Snapcasters is probably about where you want to be, but I'd rather err with 3 than with 2 (since I have the Riptide package). Early game I tend to brainstorm Snapcasters away, but mid to late game, I'm always happy to see them, and I can't say that I've ever had issues Snapping back Counterspells or Decays or anything. Hell, I often will Snap Forces. I haven't had any issues with curve. If anyone has questions or would like me to explain card choices, let me know and I'll do so.

Benie Bederios

05-16-2013, 10:23 AM

Hi,

Been out of it for a while, thinking of getting back in it, I used to play Landstill.

Is there no love anymore for the Ubgw version of the deck? Then manabase is a little weaker but with enough fetches it worked well in a meta with Merfolk and aggro-loam. Seems like there is still no replacement for Swords to Plowshare. I also liked Meddling Mage in the board.

I used to play a 4-off list mostly, just with the best cards of the colour's (2 years ago though.)

Don't know what had changed in the last years, I punched it in MWS and it seems to work, although I didn't play against tier 1 decks.

So is Ubg just the best version of the deck?

.benie.

eldpojken

05-16-2013, 12:42 PM

Arianrhod

05-16-2013, 01:06 PM

I think it would be really dangerous to play 4 colors as even with 3 and only 4 colorless lands and 23 lands total I feel like the manabase isn't as resilient as I'd ideally like it to be.
Between all the removal in the deck there are few threats that can't be dealt with efficiently since the printing of Abrupt Decay and the most dangerous is probably Tombstalker. Maelstrom Pulse can deal with it but it is a bit slow. As for BUG being the strongest, that is probably debatable. I've tried some U/W lists and they are strong aswell but then you are semi-forced into playing Terminus with SDT (just playing wraths feel way too slow these days) and then you have to ask yourself if you are getting enough from incorporating Standstills and Mishras rather than just being a regular Miracles deck. I think arguments can be made for going either direction.

Personally I like the BUG version more, because when you move away from SDT and play a rather low curve the deck becomes very smooth and consistent while stile retaining alot of raw power just by virtue of playing cards like Standstill, Deed and Jace. Your answer are very diverse in Decay and Deed as well as being a strong permission deck (4 Fow, some Counterspell and Spell Snares and you might have the highest density of hard counters in format right now) and if you like you can go my route and play targeted discard as a proactive and even more diverse way of interacting. I play less permanent removal than most which can be a problem if you fall behind early, but the deck is so well set up to not make that happen and instead you get to resolve Standstill very reliably.

Arian:
I'd be super scared playing your manabase with "only" 23 lands when you have 4 Mishra and 2 Wasteland as well as the Riptide lab. Other than that I lie your list as it is very similar to mine, although I really like the discard. I don't think Agony Warp is better than playing another Abrupt Decay though as 3 thoughness and over 3 cc is very rare, you don't really need the blue count, there are plenty non-creatures to be killed and it is probably way too rare to get to shrink an attacker at the same time as you kill something.

I'm also really skeptical about Damnation but it is probably fine.

You'd think that the blue count would be fine, but I actually had two separate occasions on Tuesday where I wanted to FoW something and didn't have another blue card. Could just be luck, variance, etc -- but I feel that Warp is worth testing at least. I'm not ready to just cut another removal spell yet, and "blue removal" is a pretty short-supply type of thing. I'm a huge fan of Pongify/Rapid Hybridization in BUG Delver/Shardless, but that seems significantly worse in this version of BUG.

As for the mana base -- that's been a consistent source of disagreement, and I'm fine with agreeing to disagree. It's been fine for me so far, but I also don't have anything super-horrifying like Dragon Stompy or Aggro Loam that would be REALLY punishing mana bases in my local. The worst I get is like BUG Delver with Sinkholes in the board, and I'm fine against that.

Damnation is mostly a nod to the increase in Fishmen lately, along with a higher-than-historical Goblins and Maverick presence (with attending Mirran Crusaders everywhere) in my local area. Having an extra reset switch is pretty good in my meta.

Purgatory

05-16-2013, 02:19 PM

Since I'm kinda new to the deck, could someone be so kind as to point me to a primer of BUGstill or a run-down of its matchups? :)

JACO

05-17-2013, 04:39 PM

Since I'm kinda new to the deck, could someone be so kind as to point me to a primer of BUGstill or a run-down of its matchups? :)
Newer:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/?p=3603

Older:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/?p=241
http://www.eternalcentral.com/?p=610

Good luck with the deck!

Purgatory

05-18-2013, 01:05 PM

Newer:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/?p=3603

Older:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/?p=241
http://www.eternalcentral.com/?p=610

Good luck with the deck!

Thanks a lot! :)

Adryan

05-19-2013, 05:52 PM

Today we had a 30 man tournament in Austria, and i gave to a friend (he plays only Legacy and became 11th at GP Strassbourg, so he is a very good player) the following decklist to get some feedback:

Lands (24)

4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
3 Wasteland
3 Mishras Factory

Removal (9)

3 Innocent Blood
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay

Disruption (9)

3 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
4 Thoughtseize

Core (13)

4 Jace TMS
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
1 Life from the Loam

Utility (5)

3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Senseis Divining Top
Sideboard

2 Spell Pierce
3 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Vendillion Clique
1 Perish
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Innocent Blood
1 Life from the Loam
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Liliana

He made the following changes in the maindeck: -1 Counterspell, - 1 Top, + 1 Force of Will, +1 Innocent Blood. He went 5-0 and i think he played against Elves, Shardless BUG, Aluren, D&T and Punishing NicFit. Our local meta is very healthy we have everything from TES to Punishing Jund etc.

Feedback i got from him:

(short summary):
Thoughtseize is necessary, because it gives you information, removes threats and helps you resolve Jace and Standstill (i agree)
The manabase is bad. 2 Bayous with two Counterspells are shit. They don't support 2 Counterpells very well ( i don't agree, the manabase is good enough, i tested it a lot, but yes definetely something to keep in mind)
Perish seems random but is very good (agree xD)
Cut 1 Standstill, play 3 ( i disagree)
feedback i always get: proactive strategies are better than reactive strategies ( most complex question in MtG xD)

Feedback from another good player and one not so good player^^:

STANDSTILL SUCKS. Removing Standstill from the deck would improve it. Standstill is bad against Jund. Or play another better deck. It's a bad deck.

Reasons: Standstill is situational and only a win more card. Ancestral Vision is better. You have to play it on an empty board. Standstill is only good against combo.

Although i don't agree with that, one thing to keep in mind is that Shardless Agent is strictly better with Ancestral Vision and before i play this deck with Visions i'd rather play Shardless Agent. Completely removing Standstill from the deck makes it a worse choice than something like U/W Miracle, Esperblade or Shardless BUG. In my testing against Jund (about 70-90 games) i found Standstill sometimes a very proactive card and never a dead card, especially with all the Disruption/Removal etc. So to play the 4 Standstill is a necessity against Jund to fight their Card Advantage. A small bonus is also that it completely warps the game and an inexperienced player will always misplay against it (break it at the wrong time)

What do you guys think about Standstill? I think it's a strong and powerful card and a necessity.

Purgatory

05-20-2013, 06:47 AM

I'm new to the deck as well, but intuitively, I'd drop the second Bayou from his list for the fourth factory and drop the Wastelands for basic lands (2 Islands, 1 Swamp). I play that configuration, but with a Tar Pit over the 9th fetch, and with more blue sources in the deck, running 2 Counterspells is fine, and they have been great for me so far.

For reference (and some feedback of my own), here's my list in its entirety.

1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
2 Island
1 Swamp

3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Life from the Loam

4 Thoughtseize
2 Disfigure
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Damnation (will swap for 3rd Deed when I get my hands on it)

And a highly experimental sideboard:
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Tombstalker
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Flusterstorm
3 Spell Pierce
1 Jace Beleren
1 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Perish
1 Krosan Grip

Some thoughts regarding my sideboard:
* Spell Pierce: Since I have no Pierces in the mainboard, I like to keep these here to side in against combo match-ups where the proactive discard is less relevant (Show and Tell-based decks basically). Maybe a 2:2 split between it and Flusterstorm is more correct, I don't know.

* Jace Beleren: Hilarious against decks where winning the Jace war matters. Miracles, for example, can have a hard time removing him without wasting a Jace2 of their own, so my plan is to get it on the board and draw it down to 1 and then let it sit there while I search for my own Jaces.

* Tamiyo: I've used her to great effect in UW Blade, both maindeck and board, and she is great in grindy match-ups where both players tend to end up in topdeck mode after a while, since she's both a threat in herself and an answer to a single threat (Battlerskull for example).

* Krosan Grip: Again, extra removal for stuff that Abrupt Decay won't hit, mainly Batterskull.

* Tombstalker: Tech my friend used to run in his BG Pox deck since forever. One of the first things I realized after starting to play the deck is that I need to have some things to help me finish some 2-1 games in 50 minutes, and Tombstalker and Thrun are both stuff that can come in. I've tried Goyf as well, but I found that some opponents kept in some removal to hit Clique/Snapcaster clocks (Abrupt Decay) or Factory (StP), and Tombstalker dodges the first one at least. Quite unsure about him right now, but I haven't been unhappy with the choice. Also, delving 4-5 cards and dropping a 5/5 flyer when you killed your opponent with 2/1:s and 2/2:s the game before is pretty awesome :)

Adryan

05-20-2013, 08:22 AM

I'm new to the deck as well, but intuitively, I'd drop the second Bayou from his list for the fourth factory and drop the Wastelands for basic lands

Then you lose to Jund, which is only 10 % of the meta^^

Why Tamiyo over the fourth Jace?

Purgatory

05-21-2013, 07:54 AM

Then you lose to Jund, which is only 10 % of the meta^^

Why Tamiyo over the fourth Jace?

Jund doesn't make up quite 10% around here, it has a presence, sure, but I'd say it's about on par with decks like Death and Taxes or Goblins in numbers. I played in a 34-man tournament at Sweden's largest gaming convention a couple of weeks ago, and saw only two Jund decks, and in our local meta, only one player plays it with any regularity. So it's a bit less common around here at least, thankfully.

To be honest, I haven't tested much against the deck either, but so far the Wasteland-less deck doesn't seem to autolose. On the other hand, when I ran Wasteland (if you look back just one page you'll see a list I posted that included Wasteland), while it seemed fine most of the time, 6 colorless lands is a lot, and I mulliganed more with that manabase than I do now. I could see myself going to 25 lands and 2-3 Wasteland, maybe at the cost of a Factory, but that's if some more people pick up Jund and come here. :)

Tamiyo > Jace becase I only own three Jaces, and I haven't missed him enough so far to buy the fourth one. She should probably be something else, and I'm looking at everything between Virtue's Ruin and Golgari Charm to more grave hate.

eldpojken

05-21-2013, 09:35 AM

Adryan

05-22-2013, 05:38 PM

Saying you autolose a MU because of changing a few lands (especially the dropping of the 2nd Bayou) is an absurd statement and obviously no where near reality. You will lose percentage points in that MU from not playing Wastelands, that is for sure, but some of those points are off-set by the weakening of the manabase making their Wastelands better against you. On top of that you weaken sooo many more MU's in which you face opposing Wastelands while your own Wastelands are only at a prime vs Grove and just semi good vs other things.
As always, weigh the pro's and con's.

The 2nd Bayou I personally feel is unnecessary but I really like the 1st. Aside from that I don't think you need more than 3 Seas and 3 Trops, possibly even less but at the same time basics aren't necessarily that great in this deck as it is very hard to fetch around their Wastelands enough that they won't set you back at all since you eventually will have prime targets for them in manlands even if you get good colors early so I think generally you just want to go semi allin on duals and it is possible you should just play 0 basics. For now I'm playing 2 which feels ok for hands where you have few lands which include a fetch and Brainstorm or discard as you can at least get off the ground, but it is possible it's worth it even then.

you do. Games against Jund are long and grindy and when they draw their engine, which they usually will do with a 4/4 split, you will just autolose, because you have nothing in your deck to fight against that. This is not a theory, this comes from serious testing with this archetype. Sure sometimes they don't have their engine, but most of the time the do and then you're dead.

I can count the games i lost to Wasteland on one hand. Pure variance. Like a T1 Combo kill with protection. Do you prepare for T1 Combo kills with protection? no because it's not worth it and so are basics especially with 2 Life from the Loam in your 75.

eldpojken

05-23-2013, 09:40 AM

Then our testing differs a lot, as the reverse has been true in mine.
I do agree that their engine is a big problem as I have said in many posts before, but from my experience you are blowing it way out of proportion and are downplaying games that are lost due to bad mana in the early game. Many games where I get off to a good start without them Wastelanding me and where I am able to develop my mana I am able to race them long before Pfire becomes a big problem so you have to take into account not just games where they waste you and you basically are dead on the spot but also games that drag on long from that first waste that wouldv'e looked completely different had you had more traction in the early game.

Ayotte

05-24-2013, 10:08 AM

Here's the list I've been playing. I really like it. Disfigure and darkblast are great in my meta, in which most of the creature decks have small butts. I have yet to miss spell pierce. I also really like Life from the Loam. Yesterday, it won me 2 matches, either recurring wasteland or getting my factories back after my opponents' wastelands. Liliana was a house for me yesterday as well; almost tempting me to add a second one. The sideboard is mostly for combo decks because I have the main prepared for my local metagame, which is mostly elves, goblins, affinity, and XUG decks. There are a few combo and stoneblade decks as well, but I'm less likely to play against them. The basic forest is because there are a couple people playing blood moons that I really like to be able to abrupt decay.

24 Lands
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest

5 Creatures
2 Vendillion Clique
3 Snapcaster Mage

4 Planeswalkers
3 Jace TMS
1 Liliana of the Veil

7 Enchantments
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Standstill

20 Instants and Sorceries
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Disfigure
1 Darkblast
3 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
1 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
1 Life from the Loam

Sideboard:
2 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Krosan Grip
2 Flusterstorm
1 Hydroblast
1 Innocent Blood
1 Pernicious Deed

Nastaboi

05-28-2013, 07:44 AM

I just made top 8 in 3k tournament (89 players). (LINK) (http://porotour.com/) Frustraring loss in quarterfinals ended my 19-match undefeated streak with the deck. The list:

1 Bayou
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Island
4 Mishra’s Factory
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland

3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Snapcaster Mage

3 Pernicious Deed
4 Standstill

3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
2 Disfigure
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare

2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Life from the Loam
1 Thoughtseize

4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

SB:
1 Nihil Spellbomb
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Thoughtseize

I played every round against other Jace decks, which obviously suited me well.
R1 BYE (from winning a trial)
R2 UW Miracles 2-1
R3 Esperblade 2-0
R4 UB Tezzeret 1-1-1
R5 Shardless BUG 2-1
R6 UB Tezzeret 2-0
R7 ID
Top 8 Shardless BUG 1-2

The main difference between my list and most others is that I have been running Shamans. The one mana planeswalker has so high upsides that it definitely is worth exposing yourself to some removal. It also helps with mana, which is not that great - I have to cut basics and just accept occasional loss against Blood Moon. I also had to cut Lilys to make room for more cheap disruption. While she's great in this deck, I just could not cut anything else - and oddly haven't really missed her. Sideboard is all against combo decks, as you really don't need much help in any matchups.

Purgatory

05-29-2013, 05:42 AM

Nice list, and congrats on the results!

Even with the Shaman, how were the 7 colorless lands?

Nastaboi

05-29-2013, 02:31 PM

Adryan

06-02-2013, 08:04 PM

Well, Factory is often the best card in the deck, and I usually side out some Wastelands against combo decks or decks with few nonbasics. I'd rather replace basics than colorless lands as the latter are very essential to deck's function.

Does anyone else want to try this with M14 Release in the SB:

4 Intuition
1 Dark Depths
1 Thespian Stage

(Life from the Loam should be in the Maindeck)

Doesn't seem good but can result in funny blowouts, definitely worth trying.

sdematt

06-02-2013, 08:40 PM

But winning out of nowhere takes away the fun of grinding out your opponents with Manlands. Nothing is more satisfying than a game of Magic where you throw away half the fun, and claim the other half for yourself and leave your opponent with zero fun.

-Matt

phazonmutant

06-02-2013, 11:47 PM

Purgatory

06-03-2013, 08:31 AM

Also, if I were to load up on Intuitions, I'd probably play something tuned to abuse that (It's the Fear), than a saturated version of Landstill. Our wincons work fine for me, if you're having issues playing three games in 50 minutes, there's always Tarmogoyf to help us with that.

The Treefolk Master

06-03-2013, 01:01 PM

door

06-03-2013, 04:05 PM

I would suggest such list:

// Lands
2 [ALA] Island (2)
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [ALA] Swamp (1)
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [B] Tropical Island
4 [B] Underground Sea
1 [U] Bayou
1 [CS] Dark Depths
1 [GTC] Thespian's Stage

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [DLM] Counterspell
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 [OD] Innocent Blood
2 [ISD] Liliana of the Veil
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [RAV] Darkblast
3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
1 [EVE] Raven's Crime
3 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
1 [TE] Intuition

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 1 [EVE] Raven's Crime
SB: 2 [6E] Perish
SB: 2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
SB: 4 [CS] Counterbalance
SB: 3 Deathrite Shaman
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction

It's a pity, the rules will apply only in July. I really want to run this list IRL.

Adryan

06-05-2013, 04:23 PM

I would play more Intuition ;-)

------------------------------------------
Today i played this list at our small weekly local torunament (14 players) , and went 3-1, win against Mono Blue S&T, Canadian and Canadian and a loss against Canadian.
Note that this list is super inferior to the list i already posted here and was built in 3 minutes in the morning, but it's a lot of fun:

Creatures (8)

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix

Planeswalker (6)

4 JTMS
2 Liliana of the Veil

Enchantments (8)

4 Pernicious Deed
4 Standstill

Instants(14)

4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm

Lands (24)

4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
9 Fetchlands
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Mishra's Factory

SB

4 Thoughtseize
4 Flusterstorm
2 Vendillion Clique
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 GY Hate

As already mentioned it was a lot of fun, but running creatures just makes this deck worse. You don't want to tap out for dudes, that die instantly most of the time. I'd rather play this list than any list with 4 Deathrite Shaman or 4 Baleful Strix because it's increasing the chances one creature will stick. So playing a playset of both is necessary if you want to play this deck with creatures (bad idea if you want to play at a large tournament. don't believe me?- play different lists against Esper, Jund, Shardless BUG, Miracles and you'll find out why.)

Edit: The game against S&T was a joke. Postboard this list can't lose against combo.

th3 w1z4rd

06-07-2013, 11:07 AM

I'm seeing way too many BUG Landstill lists without Standstill. That card is great, I don't care what anyone says. I've wrecked RUG, Stoneblade, and other decks that people say it's bad against with it. I only really hate it against Turbo Eldrazi but that matchup is almost unwinnable anyway. Here's my list. It's geared more towards Planeswalkers. I give you BUG Planeswalkers:

3 Jace TMS
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Vraska
1 Garruk Relentless

2 Tombstalker

4 Pernicious Deed
4 Standstill

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell

3 Innocent Blood
2 Maelstrom Pulse

3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Island
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Scalding Tarn

The Sideboard is a work in progress. I originally made an anti-Turbo Eldrazi sideboard since I always face that at my LGS. It also happened to destroy combo, which my maindeck isn't so awesome at. It's a bit ridiculous but here it is.

3 Duress
3 Disrupt
3 Wasteland
3 Sadistic Sacrament
3 Extirpate

In my testing this sideboard configuration crushed Twelvepost, combo, and control, but I feel it's too narrow. Plus there aren't enough answers to tribal decks and other pure aggro which shows up in my meta as well alongside Stoneblade. So perhaps this is better.

3 Duress
3 Sadistic Sacrament
3 Extirpate
2 Engineered Plague
1 Krosan Grip
2 Disrupt
1 Jace Beleren

CRich3

06-17-2013, 09:44 AM

Purgatory

06-18-2013, 08:17 AM

I build this deck saturday night and played it sunday morning at SCG Columbus (http://www.eternalcentral.com/?p=3603). I started off 0-2 and then won 5 in a row and lost the last 2 finishing 5-4. I think I did pretty good considering I never played the deck before. I wanted to play BUG still because I was expecting a lot of show and tell and storm. I was right, they format was over 50% of one or the other, but i didn't play either all night.

A few things I noticed.
-I have no idea what to sideboard against what matches. I was prepared for combo so when I played all fair decks (minus 2 dredge) I wasn't sure what went in and went out.
-I do not see the point of snapcaster. Only time I have ever used him was to flash back brainstorm, chump block, and mostly to pitch to FoW.
-I SB Life from the Loam in every game, but never drew it.
-Lingering Souls is a very hard card to combat in esper. If I didn't land a deed I couldn't stop it.

Any suggestions on what to swap snapcaster out for? Or what to change to make him have some use main decked? I just think having a card MD because he works good with your SB is pretty bad.

Perhaps Snappy isn't as splashy as he could be in the more creature-heavy deck with Strix, but whenever I draw him late-game he means inf value. Early on I tend to pitch him to FoW or shuffle him back with Brainstorm, but late-game there are few cards I'm as happy to see as Snapcaster.

A card that I've been very happy with lately that's not mentioned in the article is Disfigure. It has a large variety of targets and even though it overlaps with Abrupt Decay in most cases, being able to hit Stoneforge, Deathrite, Mom, Bob, Delver, Lavamancer, every elf there is (almost), Clique etc. etc. for a single mana is powerful. It also opens up the opportunity to go Underground Sea -> Disfigure your one-drop -> Factory, Standstill which means that being Instant speed is highly relevant in the early game, when comparing it to Innocent Blood.

Ayotte

06-18-2013, 10:59 AM

Disfigure is my 1 mana removal of choice, and it has been since week 2 of playing this deck. I haven't regretted it once.

sdematt

06-18-2013, 12:00 PM

You need to kill Confidant/SFM on Turn 2. I've used Disfigure as a 3-of and it's been great.

-Matt

Purgatory

06-18-2013, 01:14 PM

My removal suite now is 2 Disfigure, 3 Decays, 2 Deeds, 1 Damnation (next to 4 FoW, 2 Snare, 2 Counterspell, 4 Thoughtseize), and I've been very happy happy with it all in all. I've made zero changes in the past five weeks, which is a personal record I believe.

pandaman

06-21-2013, 08:40 PM

I agree that Disfigure is amazing, it has replaced 2 Innocent Bloods in my list.

I have brewed this which I plan on trying to stick with for a time:

Maindeck (61)

Instants

2 Disfigure
4 Brainstorm
2 Spell Pierce
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

Sorceries

2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Innocent Blood

Enchantments

4 Pernicious Deed
4 Standstill

Creatures

2 Snapcaster Mage

Planeswalkers

4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands

4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Creeping Tar Pit

Sideboard

1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendillion Clique
2 Flusterstorm
3 Thoughtseize
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Life from the Loam

I was always a big opponent of creatures in Landstill, but I didn't see anything wrong with Snapcaster Mage last night when I played this, although it does make the opponent's StPs a little more live.

A little report from Tuesday night:

Round 1 vs Belcher – Win 2-1

Game 1 - he is on the play and kills me Turn 1. I mulled to 5 and didn't have a FoW.

Board - +1 Snapcaster Mage +2 Vendillion Clique +2 Flusterstorm +3 Thoughtseize +4 Surgical Extraction -4 Pernicious Deed -3 Abrupt Decay -2 Disfigure -2 Innocent Blood -1 Maelstrom Pulse

Game 2 – I am on the play, and I keep a hand with FoW and Clique, which I use to control his hand and board until I land a Jace to fateseal him out.

Board – nothing

Game 3 – I am on the draw, and keep a FoWLess hand after he decides to mull to 6. A risk, but the hand allowed me to go Turn 1 Thoughtseize Turn 2 Counterspell Turn 3 Clique Turn 4 Jace. He didn’t have the Turn 1 win and it’s a round win for me.

Round 2 vs UW StoneStill – Win 2-0

Game 1 – I am on the play and have the chance to ram a Turn 2 Standstill but have no idea what he’s playing. I subsequently find out it’s Stoneblade and am glad that I didn’t ram the Standstill, as I make good plays with Disfigure, Counterspell and Spell Pierce to make him burn his FoWs, then land a Standstill for good value. That leads to a Jace, and that’s all she wrote.

Board – nothing

Game 2 – I’m on the draw and he tries for a Turn 2 Standstill! So he’s playing StoneStill, not Stoneblade like he told me. I Spell Pierce it, and we eventually get to a stage where I’ve laid a Standstill and we are both drawing and discarding under it. I’m cool with it, because I now have more land on the table. He cracks it, and I eventually land a Jace which starts to fateseal. He sneaks a Batterskull through to make my life a misery and I lose the Jace, only to land another. Eventually I draw all four of my Mishra’s Factories and beat him to death while bouncing the germ token with Jace.

Round 3 vs Bant Brew – loss 0-2

Game 1 – I am slowly whittled away by what seems to be a neverending supply of creatures.

Board – nothing

Game 2 – Again, a neverending stream of creatures attacks me and a Green Sun Zenith sneaks in Pridemage to pop my Pernicious Deed preventing me from trading 3 for 1. I can’t recover.

Round 4 vs Merfolk – draw 1-1-1

Game 1 – he’s on the play and does what Merfolk does to decks that play Islands.

Board - -1 Spell Pierce +1 Life from the Loam

Game 2 – I’m on the play and Pierce his Turn 1 Vial. From there I utilise Deed, Disfigure on Mutavaults and Abrupt Decays on everything to protect a Jace and fateseal him out.

Board – nothing

Game 3 – He puts huge pressure on me and we are both deep into our decks with me on 5 life. He keeps laying Lords and islandwalking his Mutavault through onto my Jace, which switches to brainstorming to try and find an answer. I find Decay Pulse, and take control. but not before it dies.. Unfortunately, time is called, which means I don’t get a win I think I had locked up, with him drawing off the top and me shortly to slam another Jace and start to fateseal once again.

I need to learn to play faster with the deck, else I would have had the win in game 3 and gone 3-1.

Has anyone got any suggestions for improvements on this list? New sideboard cards, mainboard reconfigurations etc? I would love some feedback.

Adryan

06-23-2013, 11:03 AM

I'd definetely reconsider your SB plans. F. ex. keeping FoW in the Maindeck against Maverick/ Bant is bad. Thoughtseize is better than FoW in this matchup.

Purgatory

06-24-2013, 05:48 PM

Another Magic Monday in the books, and I can't see myself playing another deck right now, it feels pretty awesome, it's interactive as all hell, and whenever I Jace someone out while dropping Standstill after Standstill, I get a warm and fuzzy feeling together with the paradoxical sense that I'm re-enacting that scene from Family Guy with the prisoner who stabs himself. "Is this what I've been doing to people? I belong here!", indeed.

All said and done, I played a few hands against 12-post today and it felt like a rough matchup where the only spells I played that were relevant were Thoughtseize and counter magic, and even then, my opponent had games where he just went Post-Post-Post-Post-Eye of Ugin-gg? and I had no way to interact with him at all. I'm looking at adding Wasteland back to the MD, not for that match solely or for Jund for that matter, but mainly blowing up utility lands such as Cavern of Souls.

What I had in mind:
1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Wasteland
8 fetch
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island

For a total of 24 lands, though I'm looking at going up to 25 to add a Swamp. Might cut the MD Clique for it and move it to the sideboard, we'll see.

I also want some tips on side boarding in general. I'm going to a tournament on the 6th and I don't know what to bring. So far I've been playing:

1 Clique
2 Tombstalker
1 Thrun
1 Flusterstorm
3 Spell Pierce
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Perish
1 K-Grip

Assume an unknown meta where you both get the tier 1 decks but if I pick up an early loss, I might be paired against a fringe deck like 12-post or NicFit or (shudders) Burn. How would you guys build the board?

TakeYourTime

06-25-2013, 08:46 AM

...I played a few hands against 12-post today and it felt like a rough matchup
Agreed! 12-post is brutal. One way to sideboard for this matchup is an intuition package of:
-Intuition (obvi)
-x Life from the Loam
-x Wasteland
-x Raven's Crime

12-post loses when you attack their mana base and hand at the same time.

I also want some tips on side boarding in general. I'm going to a tournament on the 6th and I don't know what to bring. So far I've been playing:

1 Clique
2 Tombstalker
1 Thrun
1 Flusterstorm
3 Spell Pierce
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Perish
1 K-Grip

Assume an unknown meta where you both get the tier 1 decks but if I pick up an early loss, I might be paired against a fringe deck like 12-post or NicFit or (shudders) Burn. How would you guys build the board?

What is the Tombstalker for? Creature matchups or matchupes where a control player sides out removal? (I'm not saying this is good or bad, I'm just curious).

I personally prefer Extirpate over Surgical Extraction. Tapping for one black mana to get split second in a deck with ~24 lands seems reasonable.

As for the rest of the sideboard, It's hard to say without seeing the other 60. Some sideboard cards that have been great for me in the past are: Darkblast, more sweepers (Damnaation/Pernicious Deed), and Maelstrom Pulse. Your sideboard also seems slim on graveyard hate against an unknown meta, so you might want to consider Nihil Spellbomb or Relic of Progenitus.

Purgatory

06-25-2013, 10:12 AM

What is the Tombstalker for? Creature matchups or matchupes where a control player sides out removal? (I'm not saying this is good or bad, I'm just curious).

It's for those matches where I need some faster clocks to finish game three within the clock.

I personally prefer Extirpate over Surgical Extraction. Tapping for one black mana to get split second in a deck with ~24 lands seems reasonable.

As for the rest of the sideboard, It's hard to say without seeing the other 60. Some sideboard cards that have been great for me in the past are: Darkblast, more sweepers (Damnaation/Pernicious Deed), and Maelstrom Pulse. Your sideboard also seems slim on graveyard hate against an unknown meta, so you might want to consider Nihil Spellbomb or Relic of Progenitus.

My 60:

1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Wasteland
8 fetch
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island

3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Disfigure
4 Thoughtseize
1 Damnation
1 Life from the Loam
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Pernicious Deed

Planned changes so far are -1 Damnation, +1 Deed.

Adryan

06-25-2013, 10:14 AM

I also want some tips on side boarding in general. I'm going to a tournament on the 6th and I don't know what to bring. So far I've been playing:

1 Clique
2 Tombstalker
1 Thrun
1 Flusterstorm
3 Spell Pierce
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Perish
1 K-Grip

Assume an unknown meta where you both get the tier 1 decks but if I pick up an early loss, I might be paired against a fringe deck like 12-post or NicFit or (shudders) Burn. How would you guys build the board?

A SB depends a lot on your maindeck and what decks you're weak against and what you want to beat and against which decks you accept losing. Whenever i build a SB i make a complete list for all matchups to make sure i don't waste SB space. Every SB slot is worth a lot. In general i would cut the Grip because it's useless and the two Tombstalkers and Thrun for more Flusterstorm/Snapcaster Mage/ Counterspells etc.

pandaman

06-29-2013, 12:53 AM

I'd definetely reconsider your SB plans. F. ex. keeping FoW in the Maindeck against Maverick/ Bant is bad. Thoughtseize is better than FoW in this matchup.

Adryan, I had added Thoughtseize so against combo I could proactively interact, and also take advantage of Snapcaster Mage in a proactive way.

Why do you think keeping Force in against Maverick and Bant bad? Is it because of the card disadvantage?

Adryan

06-30-2013, 05:34 AM

Adryan, I had added Thoughtseize so against combo I could proactively interact, and also take advantage of Snapcaster Mage in a proactive way.

Why do you think keeping Force in against Maverick and Bant bad? Is it because of the card disadvantage?

Oh wow. I've always wondered what Thoughtseize is for, good to know.... Joke apart.

Discard is also maindeckplayable in our deck.
Discard gets more powerful when there is a lack of redundancy for proactive effects. It's not good when you're opponent has a hand of 4 2/2 Bears with no abilities.

The route to victory with this deck is to resolve a Standstill/ Jace. Against Bant/ Maverick- Which cards do we care the most? Thalia/ Knight/ GSZ/ Pridemage/ Brainstorm/ Jace etc.

Cards we don't care about: Noble Hierarch, Swords to Plowshares, Mother of Runes (if we have anough mana for Deed), Scryb Ranger etc.
So there is a lack of redundancy for proactive effects because a lot of cards are not as powerful as other cards (Thalia/Jace,..) in this matchup.

So what do you think is better postboard? A 2 for 1 Trade (FoW) with almost zero information, or a 1:1 trade (Discard) which removes the most dangerous threat and provides information and helps you resolve Standstill Turn 2/ Jace etc?

I play this deck a lot on Magic Online/ RL so i definetely know what i'm talking about. I apologize if this text is somehow rude but i just don't like people who are asking for help and then get angry when someone tells them that what they're doing ( SB for ex.) is wrong and how they could make it better. If you just want us to applaude and tell you how genius your deck is, you should tell us before.

pandaman

07-01-2013, 07:12 PM

Oh wow. I've always wondered what Thoughtseize is for, good to know.... Joke apart.

Discard is also maindeckplayable in our deck.
Discard gets more powerful when there is a lack of redundancy for proactive effects. It's not good when you're opponent has a hand of 4 2/2 Bears with no abilities.

The route to victory with this deck is to resolve a Standstill/ Jace. Against Bant/ Maverick- Which cards do we care the most? Thalia/ Knight/ GSZ/ Pridemage/ Brainstorm/ Jace etc.

Cards we don't care about: Noble Hierarch, Swords to Plowshares, Mother of Runes (if we have anough mana for Deed), Scryb Ranger etc.
So there is a lack of redundancy for proactive effects because a lot of cards are not as powerful as other cards (Thalia/Jace,..) in this matchup.

So what do you think is better postboard? A 2 for 1 Trade (FoW) with almost zero information, or a 1:1 trade (Discard) which removes the most dangerous threat and provides information and helps you resolve Standstill Turn 2/ Jace etc?

I play this deck a lot on Magic Online/ RL so i definetely know what i'm talking about. I apologize if this text is somehow rude but i just don't like people who are asking for help and then get angry when someone tells them that what they're doing ( SB for ex.) is wrong and how they could make it better. If you just want us to applaude and tell you how genius your deck is, you should tell us before.

I think my reply to you may have come out wrong. I'm not angry at all, I just wanted to explain why I thought to include Thoughtseize and ask why you thought you should board out Force for it.

I didn't actually think the use of Thoughtseize through outside of its usefulness against combo. You make a good point for it over Force in the Bant/Maverick matchups. Thanks for the explanation of the concept of redundancy.

Actually, applying that concept, there seems to be a number of other matchups that you could take Force out for. I will be trying it for the matchups already discussed, but I'll brainstorm a few more and test them.

Would appreciate your thoughts on other matchups once I've tested them?

Purgatory

07-03-2013, 05:34 AM

I think my reply to you may have come out wrong. I'm not angry at all, I just wanted to explain why I thought to include Thoughtseize and ask why you thought you should board out Force for it.

I didn't actually think the use of Thoughtseize through outside of its usefulness against combo. You make a good point for it over Force in the Bant/Maverick matchups. Thanks for the explanation of the concept of redundancy.

Actually, applying that concept, there seems to be a number of other matchups that you could take Force out for. I will be trying it for the matchups already discussed, but I'll brainstorm a few more and test them.

Would appreciate your thoughts on other matchups once I've tested them?

I board a lot on gut feeling, and I generally take out Force if I have an alternative 1-for-1 answer to bring in, such as Blasts, Spell Pierce, K-Grip, other removal etc., and I generally board out Force of Will a lot when playing tempo decks such as RUG or BUG. I cling to them harder in this deck, maybe due in part to my inexperience with it, but also that a 3UU: Counter target Planeswalker instant is relevant in a lot of match-ups in the late-game. I've even snapped some of them back, but that's an extreme example. Also, in a deck with a powerful card-advantage engine like Standstill, I find that trading 2-for-1 is less devastating than in the Tempo decks.

Adryan

07-04-2013, 06:41 PM

To answer your question about Force of Will, let's talk first about Standstill.

Things to notice when you play Standstill:

Standstill is situational cardadvantage and is not good against Control decks: e.g. Espercontrol*, U/W/r Miracle

Playing Standstill blindly Turn 2 can have a very bad result. The worst: They make more landdrops than you. Hell yeah you may hit them a few times with your factory but life totals are completely irrelevant in these matchups. Most important part are your land drops in a Control mirror. So it's kind of a Russian roulette. You may board Standstill out against Espercontrol (i do, because i don't like randomness) but against every other Controldeck with 4 SDT you HAVE to board it out.

When Standstill is good: against every other deck that doesn't benefit as much as our deck from a lot of lands (Canadian, Maverick, Jund, Shardless BUG, Goblins, Meerfolk, Junk, all combo decks,....)

Standstill is awesome against these kinds of deck. They have to break it immediately because if they don't we still have a massive advantage (try to lose with this deck against RUG delver when you have 10 lands. It's really hard)

To come to an end i would say don't board FoW against Controldecks out with this deck, because you have less important stuff to board out (some Removal, Standstill etc.)
Against all the other fair decks, you have to board FoW out (if you have a good replacement, if you don't than there's something wrong with your SB)

*(please note that Esperdeathblade is not a Controldeck, it's a midrange deck with Jaces so i don't board Standstill out. They may have 10 lands on their side of the board, i still do benefit more from my let's say 7 lands than they do)

GoblinSettler

07-04-2013, 07:09 PM

When Standstill is good: against every other deck that doesn't benefit as much as our deck from a lot of lands (Canadian, Maverick, Jund, Shardless BUG, Goblins, Meerfolk, Junk, all combo decks,....)

Goblins with a full hand and plenty of lands can be very threatening. Enough dudes to force a Deed and keep building board presence or just win out of no where.

Kl'rt

07-04-2013, 07:29 PM

Adryan, I had added Thoughtseize so against combo I could proactively interact, and also take advantage of Snapcaster Mage in a proactive way.

Why do you think keeping Force in against Maverick and Bant bad? Is it because of the card disadvantage? .

I play this deck a lot on Magic Online/ RL so i definetely know what i'm talking about. I apologize if this text is somehow rude but i just don't like people who are asking for help and then get angry when someone tells them that what they're doing ( SB for ex.) is wrong and how they could make it better. If you just want us to applaude and tell you how genius your deck is, you should tell us before.

Adryan, you have to calm down. Unless, his post was edited before I read it, no matter how many times I read Pandaman's reply to you, I don't detect any sense of anger at all. Nor do I get the sense that he's trying to tell us how genius his deck is. To me, it looks like he's genuinely curious about your card choice. Please relax.

Adryan

07-05-2013, 09:30 AM

Adryan, you have to calm down. Unless, his post was edited before I read it, no matter how many times I read Pandaman's reply to you, I don't detect any sense of anger at all. Nor do I get the sense that he's trying to tell us how genius his deck is. To me, it looks like he's genuinely curious about your card choice. Please relax.

Pandaman already said that. I apologize.

Goblins with a full hand and plenty of lands can be very threatening. Enough dudes to force a Deed and keep building board presence or just win out of no where.

Although I played 50 or more games against Goblins, i'm still not sure if this matchup is slightly negative or positive.
But about one thing i'm sure: when we both have a lot of lands, we are in a better situation. We have Manlands, Jace, Life from the Loam, Pernicious Deed... All these cards benefit from a lot of lands. Ringleader is not that great in the lategame because we only do care about Lords and often Ringleader reveals Goblin Lackey, Matron, Mogg War Marshal,... all not that great in the lategame when we have Jace, Manlands, Snapcaster etc. I only lose because of early pressure i cannot recover from.

Edit: i don't understand people playing Goblins. It' just not viable anymore in a world of Tarmogoyfs, Deathrite Shamans, SFMs and Punishing Fire. Standstill is also not playable in a world full of Manlands.

Nastaboi

07-06-2013, 02:52 PM

Dark Ritual

07-07-2013, 12:05 AM

You can board some Standstills out against control, but usually don't have to as you have worse cards to take out. Most of time you can just play it and they have to break it almost immediately. The only thing to watch out is that they don't slip Vendilion Clique under it, but in general I like Standstill very much against other control decks with no Mishras. Just won against UWr Miracles in tournament today, and my opponent always frowned audibly when I cast Standstill.

Standstill is rather bad against AEther Vial. I usually board them all out against Merfolk, and board some out against Goblins or Tn'T - just so that I can instantly reload after Deed.

Standstill isn't that good against combo, either. You can't just drop it turn two and hope things go well, as they can either go off right away when you are tapped out, or develop mana and disruption while under no clock. I don't usually board all Standstill out against combo, but it's more like turn 4 or 5 play after you have set up some disruption and preferably a clock.

Standstill against combo depends on your maindeck and sideboard options for boarding in/out. If you know they lack creatures like confidant, swarm, of EtW tokens you can safely board out all those deeds, disfigures, decays, innocent bloods, etc. etc. Untapping with standstill and some counter backup is typically game against them depending on your board ins (dimir charm is clutch, counterspell is great, thoughtseize, flusterstorm, spell pierce, are all good, vendilion clique is incredible.) Of course it depends on their deck. Was playtesting against 16 cantrip ANT and standstill is just backbreaking for them generally in terms of giving you too big of a counterwall to fight through.

Purgatory

07-07-2013, 01:54 PM

Played the deck to a painfully mediocre 3-2 result yesterday. Won against CB-Top, Jund and UB Tezzeret and lost against DnT and RUG. The loss against DnT was quite painful, but it was against one of the best DnT players I've seen, and he's played the deck for years exclusively. I almost had him, but lost 1-2 to some bad plays in the stressful third game.

The loss against RUG was also well-deserved. In the first he landed a Mongoose turn one and I didn't find a deed before he got it threshed and in the red zone seven times. In the second he locked me out of the game with Wasteland and Loam, though I almost won but again lost to my own bad plays (neglected to play a UGsea before blowing Deed for 1 on two Mongeese, he Stifled, I forced, he Pierced and I had only one untapped mana. Complete facepalm).

Neither loss was very crushing, I felt I had game in all of them, even the one vs DnT where he drew all four Rishadan Ports (!). The deck feels strong and is very fun to play. However, I need some tips on the matchup vs RUG - how do you guys board and play it? I'm going to try Innocent Blood again, even though Disfigure has been great, but other than that I don't know what to do.

EDIT: I guess I'll share my list and a few notes on the matches.

1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp

3 Snapcaster Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Disfigure
4 Thoughtseize
1 Life from the Loam
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed

SB:
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Tombstalker
1 Thrun
1 Flusterstorm
3 Spell Pierce
1 Jace Beleren
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Perish
2 Nihil Spellbomb

Matches:
RUG CB-Top (2-0) - He was playing an old-school RUG Countertop list and I just landed Jace in the first game, Counterspell'd his Jace and got him to thirteen counters before he could find an answer. I fateselaed myself a bit, since he had a Top active. In the second he assembled countertop, but they didn't do much against my Mishra beats.

DnT (1-2) - I see the pairings and utter a swear word half-jokingly. This player is a friend of mine and he's really good with his deck, as I said above. He tends to play tight and has won a larger Legacy tournament this year and T8'd a couple more with the same deck. It's basically the GP Strasbourgh list with minor changes. I get a caution from the judge for swearing out loud (lol), and we're off. In the first he drew all four Rishadan Ports, I wasted one of them and he tapped down three lands for most of the rest of the game. I managed to sneak in a Deed and blow up his side of the board through the Ports, but couldn't find a way to close out the game. In the second I Thoughtseized away his only threat turn one, landed a Standstill early and when he broke it I was loaded on countermagic and removal. Landed a Jace for the win. In the third, I boarded in all of my creatures since we were running out of time, kept a bad hand and lost to some bad plays.

Jund (2-0) - I mulliganed my seven (Thoughtseize, Mishra and 5 more lands) into something like two coloured sources, Wasteland, Loam, Brainstorm and something else. Hard keep, since he's a friend and I know he's on Jund. I drew my second Wasteland pretty early as well, and just wrecked his manabase. His first spell was a Deathrite (Disfigure'd) and his second Lilly (Decay'd). His third didn't come. The second match was pretty similar, I wasted a key Bayou that kept him off green and when he finally found a new source to start deploying Goyfs I had a lot of removal. I landed a Jace which he bolted twice on his way to 12 to delay the win, but I got there before he could establish a threat.

RUG (0-2) - Miserable match. He landed an early Mongoose which went all the way in the first game, in the second he Wasteloams all of my lands. I boared out my Loam, for no particular reason (facepalm). More bad plays listed above. I deserved this loss entirely.

UB Tezzeret (2-0) - In the first game, I Thoughtseize him on turn two and see Jace, Tezzeret, Tezzeret, Tezzeret. I take Jace, he plays Tezzeret which I kill after a few turns with a Mishra. His +1's only find him more bad Signets etc. He plays his second Tezzeret which I counter and by the time he plays his third, his life total is very low from Ancient Tomb + FoW + random factory beats, so I just ignore the Tezzeret and kill him. In the second he mulliganed, I think, to a pretty bad hand with little action. I just counter his key spells, and blow up all of his mana sources with a Deed. My own Jace goes all the way. Another friend, we played two more games after he signed the slip and I lost 0-2. Good fun.

It was a clean cut top 8 so nobody on 9 points got in, which is fine by me. I didn't deserve it the way I played against RUG. It sucks playing against three friends (DnT, Jund, Tezz) when you travel two hours to play Magic, but it happens when you have 6 out of 26 people going there together.

The board needs changes, I've cut the Tombstalkers for now for a Damnation and another Loam. We'll see how that works out, another card I want to try is Negate.

Adryan

07-08-2013, 04:48 AM

You can board some Standstills out against control, but usually don't have to as you have worse cards to take out. Most of time you can just play it and they have to break it almost immediately. The only thing to watch out is that they don't slip Vendilion Clique under it, but in general I like Standstill very much against other control decks with no Mishras. Just won against UWr Miracles in tournament today, and my opponent always frowned audibly when I cast Standstill.

Why do they have to break it immediately? Because you have a Mishra's Factory and lifetotals are soooooo important in this matchup? :rolleyes: Against bad players Standstill is the best card you can play because they wait when they should break it and they break it when they should wait.

Do you slam Standstill on the table when you're on the play and your opponent has a SDT in play? A bad player will break it immediately (OMG he has a Factory and I'm at 19 Life) but a good player will just wait and gett full advantage of the SDT. So boarding Standstill out against a good U/W Miracle player is a good idea. Even if they don't have SDT, the danger that they play more lands is there, because as i said they do benefit as much as we from many lands. I don't say Standstill is bad in this matchup but it turns a good matchup postboard into a gamble sometimes.

So from my experience Force of Will is stronger because in this matchup you really do care the most about their Jace.

Adryan

07-08-2013, 05:05 AM

Neither loss was very crushing, I felt I had game in all of them, even the one vs DnT where he drew all four Rishadan Ports (!). The deck feels strong and is very fun to play. However, I need some tips on the matchup vs RUG - how do you guys board and play it? I'm going to try Innocent Blood again, even though Disfigure has been great, but other than that I don't know what to do.

Sorry for the doublepost. RUG and Jund are the matchups i have the most experience with. On Magic Online i have some buddies that play RUG and at my local store we have about 30 % RUG.

Things you absolutely need Maindeck to have a positive RUG Delver matchup.

4 Targeted Discard
4 Innocent Blood
3-4 Faftories
1-2 Life from the Loam

You need to play cards that give you time ( Blood and Discard). Time is the most valuable ressource against RUG Delver, because time = land drops and RUG Delver is an Aggro deck (Claiming it is Aggro Control is completely wrong because they don't have cards that are strong in the lategame) and the longer the game goes the better for you.

Postboard the best blue counter you can have is Flusterstorm, which protects your Fetchland and can't be countered and can produce CA.
So i'd definetely play 3 Flusterstorm in the SB because it's great against RUG Delver and Combo.

Purgatory

07-08-2013, 05:21 AM

Sorry for the doublepost. RUG and Jund are the matchups i have the most experience with. On Magic Online i have some buddies that play RUG and at my local store we have about 30 % RUG.

Things you absolutely need Maindeck to have a positive RUG Delver matchup.

4 Targeted Discard
4 Innocent Blood
3-4 Faftories
1-2 Life from the Loam

You need to play cards that give you time ( Blood and Discard). Time is the most valuable ressource against RUG Delver, because time = land drops and RUG Delver is an Aggro deck (Claiming it is Aggro Control is completely wrong because they don't have cards that are strong in the lategame) and the longer the game goes the better for you.

Postboard the best blue counter you can have is Flusterstorm, which protects your Fetchland and can't be countered and can produce CA.
So i'd definetely play 3 Flusterstorm in the SB because it's great against RUG Delver and Combo.

Thanks for your input. As I said, I'm going to try Bloods in the mainboard again, though not 4. 2 to begin with, and I'll get some games against my friend who is an experienced and good RUG pilot (he ended up second with a standard RUG list at the tournament described above and usually does well no matter the format. He's also played RUG as his exclusve Legacy decks for at least a year). I already have the other mainboard components you describe, and a couple more Flusterstorms makes sense in the board. I just need to get my hands on a couple more, since I currently only have one.

kiblast

07-09-2013, 02:49 PM

Edit: i don't understand people playing Goblins. It' just not viable anymore in a world of Tarmogoyfs, Deathrite Shamans, SFMs and Punishing Fire. Standstill is also not playable in a world full of Manlands.

Honesly,if the Gobins player is really experienced, Goblins crushes the format, and this deck sucks vs. it. What stops goblin from being a major contender is that it has a way longer learning process than most legacy decks.

Purgatory

07-10-2013, 04:56 AM

Honesly,if the Gobins player is really experienced, Goblins crushes the format, and this deck sucks vs. it. What stops goblin from being a major contender is that it has a way longer learning process than most legacy decks.

Agreed. It is extremely resilient to our hate, since their curve is quite high and some still play Ports to mess with our Deed mana. I guess we could board in Engineered Plague, but I've managed to lose games vs. Goblins with Team America while having 2x Engineered Plague in play. :P It can happen.

festeringGAB

07-10-2013, 06:29 AM

Hi..yesterday I play my first small tournament (4 rounds) with landstill UBg..

1) - Vs ANT (2-1)
G1: dark ritual, dark ritual, Ad Nauseam, and I cant do anything.. :(
G2: I have side in all my discard spells, and I destroy his hand!!
G3: the same in the third game.

2) - Vs ANT (1-1-1)
G1: He wins with a topdeck of Pif at 2 life points :/
G2: He mull to 5...and an Extirpate on Infernal tutor destroy his game!
G3: The judge call the turns..and it's Draw, but I can win without problems.. :)

3) - Vs Miracle UWr (1-1-1)
G1: he wins with Angels with double force backup..
G2: needle on SdT, destroy his game..so I can win with garruk wolfs ^_^
G3: draw...I dont know if I can win or lose...we play few turns.

4) - Vs DeathBlade (2-0)
G1: he can do anithing Vs my innocent blood, decay and liliana, I resolve 3x standstill and I can win easy.
G2: a flipped garruk do all the works!!!great card really!! with krosan grip on batterskull and needle on stoneforge he die by my wolfs!

this is the list, I think is great in this metagame:

1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
2 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacomb
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou

2 Snapcaster Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
1 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare
1 Spell pierce
1 Intuition
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of The Veil
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Disfigure
1 Dismember
2 innocent Blood
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Life from the Loam
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Pernicious Deed

SB:
2 pithing needle
2 Extirpate
1 ee
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Relic of progenitus
1 krosan grip
1 counterspell
1 spell pierce
1 Notion Thief
2 thoughtseize
1 inquisition of kozilek
1 darkblast

Adryan

07-10-2013, 09:55 AM

Honesly,if the Gobins player is really experienced, Goblins crushes the format, and this deck sucks vs. it. What stops goblin from being a major contender is that it has a way longer learning process than most legacy decks.

The legacy world is happy that these players are hiding in the dark and refuse to play on Magic Online or visit big tournaments :rolleyes

I know it's many people pet deck but people have to accept when a deck can't just compete very well anymore. I accepted it because I'm not playing Esperstoneblade. The deck is completely inferior to Esperdeathblade and although i enjoyed playing it on Magic Online a lot, i have to move on.

Purgatory

07-12-2013, 06:23 AM

Speaking of tribal, I was testing a lot vs. Elves (which seems to be a DTB all of a sudden), and found the match-up rather 50:50. I played vs. an experienced Magic player but who's just recently picked up the deck, and he won most of the pre-board games and I won a bit more of the post-board games. The issue I had with the match-up was not disrupting the combo engine (which is fairly easy with all the countermagic we have, at least pre-board when he's without Cabal Therapy), but in the pre-board games he was able to grind me down a lot. He played very conservatively and refused to let me have good 3-for-1 or better Deeds and at times I just didn't find enough manlands to protect myself long enough to get Loam running or a Jace on the board to close the game.

In short, if he goes combo plan it's quite easy to deal with (aside from the double-Therapy-NO-Prog win that can happen from time to time), but if he goes aggro attrition mode, it's a lot harder.

How do you guys play this match-up? How do you sideboard?

MGB

07-12-2013, 09:34 AM

Honesly,if the Gobins player is really experienced, Goblins crushes the format, and this deck sucks vs. it. What stops goblin from being a major contender is that it has a way longer learning process than most legacy decks.

Even the best Goblins player will not be able to beat a field full of BG midrange and combo.

Goblins is a great deck, but the fact is that it has some critical weaknesses to strong combo decks (the likes of Omnitell and Storm) and Midrange decks with lots of removal (the BG stuff floating around). If the metagame is heavy in these two decks, sure, the experienced Goblins player might be able to win a few games against them, but his chances of getting through a tournament bracket filled with these decks is very slim.

Goblins shines in a metagame full of slower blue control decks and non-midrange aggro decks.

ubernostrum

08-05-2013, 07:21 PM

I've recently managed to get together the cards, both in real life and online, to start playtesting BUGStill, and I'll be playing and taking notes whenever possible. Current list is visible here on tappedout (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/bugstill-17-07-13-1/). It's rough, and I may still make some large changes (like Deed instead of EE/Ruins, or dropping the tutorboard), but it should be able to give me an idea of how things will go.

Last night was when I finally had everything together on MTGO, and late enough that I only got two matches. One was a random "Oops all spells" player who unfortunately didn't understand in time what Crop Rotation does. The other was, apparently, Chi Hoi Yim with Helm combo. First two games were very one-sided (I'd mistakenly put him on Delver with a reactive hand in game 1, and game 2 I won a big counter war and stuck a Jace), third game was a pretty good back-and-forth with a little bit of luck on my side (hit Explosives the turn I was going to die to a bunch of Angel tokens), which ended with me chaining Standstills and beating him down with manlands.

I'm going to try to get some more matches in over the next couple days, and keep this post, or a later one, updated with results.

th3 w1z4rd

09-22-2013, 09:53 PM

This thread hasn't seen action in a while. I won a very small tournament (only three rounds) today with BUGstill. The list is different from what I was using before.

2 Tombstalker

3 Pernicious Deed
4 Standstill

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Counterspell

3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Life from the Loam
3 Innocent Blood

3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Wasteland

Sideboard:
3 Duress
3 Extirpate
2 Sadistic Sacrament
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Krosan Grip
1 Flusterstorm
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Perish
1 Virtue's Ruin

Round 1 vs. Bryan with UR Delver

Game 1 takes almost the entire round, with both of us draw-land-go'ing for a while (for some reason). He starts playing Vendilion Cliques and Snapcaster Mages to flashback cantrips while I'm killing his guys with Decays and Innocent Bloods. Eventually I go for a Jace and protect him with Spell Pierce and Flusterstorm when he tries to counter and then counter again with a Snapcaster Mage. A flurry of burn throughout the next few turns heavily damages me but I finally kill Bryan with my manlands (thanks to a Standstill or two, I ended up drawing all four of them).

In 1 Flusterstorm, 2 Extirpate I think and Out 1 Deed, 1 Maelstrom Pulse, 1 Life from the Loam

We only have five minutes left on the clock when Game 2 starts. I keep a removal-heavy hand and kill all of his guys before dropping a Liliana. Unfortunately she is killed when Bryan bolts a Mishra's Factory before it can block an incoming attacker. Bryan can't kill me in turns so it's a draw.

1-0 1-0

Round 2 against Violet with MUD

I'm playing against my girlfriend using my MUD deck. Game 1 she obliterates me with turn two Thran Dynamo into Metalworker, turn three Batterskull after I Innocent Blood the worker, turn 4 Lodestone Golem, Wurmcoil Engine to my hand of no counters. Sweet.

In 1 Krosan Grip, 3 Extirpate and Out 3 Inquisition of Kozilek, 1 Flusterstorm

Game 2 I Deed away her early artifacts, kill cheap things with Decay, and counter relevant things, while using Standstill to refill my hand. I drop Jace and bounce her Wurmcoil Engine, then kill her with Tombstalker and Factory beats since Ancient Tomb was doing a number on her life.

Game 3 I waste her turn one Tomb which slows her down. I drop a Liliana and kill her Lodestone Golem with it. A turn or two later I Extirpate Ancient Tomb and she can't get enough mana to play the big robots in her hand as Liliana ticks up so she scoops.

2-0 3-1

Round 3 vs. Joe with Sneak and Show

I'm not happy about this matchup but then, everyone there except me and my girlfriend was using a U/R deck which are mostly bad matchups for BUG. Joe also wins the die roll so I expect to die a quick and ignominious death game 1. However, I am able to counter Show and Tell after we sculpt our hands for a couple turns. We sculpt for some more turns, during which Joe lands a Sneak Attack and I land a Jace. Joe only has one red mana available so he sneaks in Emrakul, which brings me to one measly life. I contemplate scooping but I don't. I sacrifice Jace and five of my seven lands to annihilator, leaving me with a Bayou and an Underground Sea. I draw the Mishra's Factory I knew was on top due to Jace Brainstorming and play Liliana, forcing Joe to discard his one card. For the next few turns I rebuild my manabase while activating Liliana's +1 every turn and beating with a Factory. I manage to Deed away two Sneak Attacks (!!!) since Joe was forced to play the second or it would just be discarded to Liliana. Eventually Joe plays his last Sneak Attack (wtf? drew ALL of them?) and his board is Sneak Attack, Island, two Volcanic Islands, Polluted Delta, with no cards in hand. I ultimate Liliana and make one pile all his possible red sources and the other pile Island and Sneak Attack. He chose to keep the three lands and I played Tombstalker, with Joe at seven life. He had no cards in hand so there was no way he could win.

Out 3 Innocent Blood, 2 Pernicious Deed, 4 Abrupt Decay and in 3 Duress, 3 Extirpate, 1 Flusterstorm, 1 Krosan Grip, 1 Diabolic Edict

Game 2 Joe cantrips for a bit and I sculpt my hand as well. I counter a Show and Tell and Extirpate it. Joe forces through a Sneak Attack but is tapped out so he passes. I Krosan Grip the Sneak Attack. Joe drops a Pithing Needle naming Liliana of the Veil. I play a Jace and more hand sculpting ensues. I find another Extirpate for Sneak Attack and Joe concedes.

1st place got a few packs. Woohoo.

Props:
My girlfriend actually winning a couple games this time (she is new to Magic and has terrible draw luck usually)
Playing against pretty much all bad matchups and winning them all

Slops:
My first round taking forever and everyone else getting pissed at me
Getting crap in the packs