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FoolofaTook
05-09-2015, 10:38 AM
The games I have mostly had trouble with over the last 3 Fridays are games where the opponent has an abundance of cheap creature removal that also hits the manlands. In matches I'm 1-4-1 against lists running Swords to Plowshares. I'm 5-0 against lists not running Swords to Plowshares. The D&T matchup was further complicated by the fact that his Rishadan Ports effectively shut down the manlands and he had Wastelands alongside the ports and plows.

The real problem I'm having is that it's rare to be in a situation where fighting over a manland is worth the investment and losing that fight is bad news if I choose to engage at that point. I had at least 1 manland on the board against Miracles for about an hour and was still unable to push through for 20 points of damage. I was sending 1 out of 2 manlands at him each turn so that he couldn't get value out of Terminus. He was able to stall successfully on half of my attacks by plowing or using Terminus. I wound up getting rid of 2 of his Jaces during the game using cliques and manlands and it just didn't matter in the end. I was at 26 life in the turn before the end and he was at 2 and he entreated for 7 angels and I just didn't have the wherewithal to win the fight over either the trigger or the spell itself. I'd spent all my counters incrementally up to that point and the active top did me in the end. I thought I'd beat him twice but he double-fetched in both cases and found what he needed with the top.

I should have conceded that game on turn 2 and boarded in some hate in the form of Krosan Grip, the 4th decay and Flusterstorm. He dropped a top on the play and then he played a top on his turn 2 as well and I was unwilling to force the 2nd top with an active top already in play. I looked at the board at that point and it had long 1 game match loss written all over it but I had 3 manlands in hand and I decided to give it a go. Mistake.

Pack Rat is an interesting idea. Every time I've tried to go down that road in Legacy it has been too slow but maybe a shell like this supports it. You want to have at least 5 mana the turn you drop it. Mutavaults are almost certainly not an improvement over Mishra's Factory. The ability to block 2 power creatures with impunity stalls the board wonderfully against many lists.

I'm shifting to Delver in this iteration because I want to add some heavy pressure to the opponent that both allows me to cast Standstill early on and to begin working through their removal when their list is all about finding the inflection point and flipping the game.

BTW, a sidenote to all of this is that Terminus has to go. If it's sitting on a list packed with counters and including Stifle and still dominating the match imagine what it singlehandedly is doing to 99% of aggro creature strategies. People say Delver was what killed off Zoo but in a meta with Terminus Zoo is DoA. You'll then have the Elves problem for slow control but killing off all creature aggro so one creature combo list can't reliably go off seems like a bad deal for Legacy in general.

Nastaboi
05-09-2015, 02:27 PM
I tried old school version without Liliana and Shamans and full set of Factories and Standstills. It really was better against Miracles, but I could not win a single game against RUG Delver. So I adjusted my list with Lilianas to include more Factories, and started winning again against Miracles. I plan on taking out Shamans in the matchup and going full control route postboard.

Now all I need is a good SB plan against RUG Delver. Innocent Blood kills everything and gets nicely around Daze, but there's some conflict as I want to bring in goyfs of my own as well. 4th Decay and Liliana are options as well, but they are more vulnerable to mana denial. Disfigure hits only Delver and Deathmark hits only goyf. Another options like Smother and Diabolic Edict sound even less attractive. Any ideas? Am I missing something?

Tea
05-09-2015, 02:42 PM
Submerge?

FoolofaTook
05-09-2015, 03:28 PM
The RUG Delver match should be a survive the first 4 turns and then crush them affair. If you have 3 Innocent Blood in the main and 1 in the SB and you're playing 4 Mishra's Factories you're about halfway there. Don't play out your goyfs until you have card advantage and can answer their limited removal options for him. Let them play out threats into your Innocent Blood and other removal. If you get beat game 1, which will happen because of the extreme consistency of RUG Delver, sit on Stifle game 2 and become the beatdown. We have options to gain real card advantage, they don't. Just let things come to you.

Whatever you do don't crack your fetches during your turn unless you have no other choice. Crack them during RUG Delver's upkeep and cut the tempo they gain from Stifle in half.

Jizz
05-09-2015, 03:48 PM
Whatever you do don't crack your fetches during your turn unless you have no other choice. Crack them during RUG Delver's upkeep and cut the tempo they gain from Stifle in half.

I don't think Nastaboi was looking for that kind of advice.

@Nastaboi

Maybe you could give your new list so that we can give our opinion. I think your main concern should be the Omnishow MU (is rug so commmon ?).

theBloody
05-09-2015, 06:11 PM
Now all I need is a good SB plan against RUG Delver. Innocent Blood kills everything and gets nicely around Daze, but there's some conflict as I want to bring in goyfs of my own as well. 4th Decay and Liliana are options as well, but they are more vulnerable to mana denial. Disfigure hits only Delver and Deathmark hits only goyf. Another options like Smother and Diabolic Edict sound even less attractive. Any ideas? Am I missing something?

I think Innocent Bloods are indeed the best here, then Decay. For me it is not the matchup where I want beatdown creatures from sb. Another options are Ghastly Demise, Baleful Strix.

I have used Surgical Extraction on Wasteland/Tropical to cripple their game, but I didn't tested it enough to give objective evaluation.

Ponders mb helps a lot.

LarsLeif
05-10-2015, 07:42 AM
Ok, interesting suff guys. I can't really start commenting specific posts here but reading through your comments some stuff came to my mind.

Regarding the RUG matchup I think that there is several ways to go. My removal suite of 4 Decay, 3 Disfigure and 1 GftT together with 6 Manlands, 2 Deeds and 1 Loam makes the matchup maybe 50% at most game 1, maybe only 40%. But post-board I can bring out Jace, NoSB and Pearl Lake for 4 Goyfs and my experience of post-board games is that they are generally positive, maybe 60% favourable or so. That should make the MU overall favourable. I think that Disfigure is a bit better than Bloods overall after some more games, not game 1 really, but post-board it's really important that we can drop blockers and still cast our removal-spells.

Regarding having Delvers in the board, is there a budget-concern there? Because in a deck with 25-ish lands there is no guarantee that delver is quicker as a clock than Goyf (due to flipping more seldom) and Goyf is much better defensively. Strix has the exact opposite problem, it's only good on defence. I think that Goyf is the best creature (alongside Clique) in the SB due to it being good both on defence and offence. If you want a strictly offensive creature I think that Clique is the best choice, even if you can't play it T1.

Against Miracles, it's vital to fight over what's really important. Don't Force Top for example. You have no pressure (and they don't either) so the game will go long and they will find several more, especially if they play 4 ponders. Save your counterspells for the few key-spells that matters (and avoid taxing counters if possible as the games will go long). Nastaboi, have you experienced Liliana as problematic in the MU? I feel that if the miracles player has Top, then +1ing Liliana will hurt you more then them, if you haven't triggered standstill of something?

My thoughts on the manlands in the Miracles MU is that they are mostly card advantage due to that the miracles player have to break standstill to deal with them. I value Jace much more for example. And Pearlie <3

I can absolutely recommend MD NoSB (and a second copy in the board). The card does so much work and having access to 1 already game 1 is backbreaking against a lot of decks like D&T, Infect, Young Pyramancer-decks, Elves, TNN-decks etc. The card has been very good for me.

This is my general thoughts right now at least, don't know if it helps. :)

Nastaboi
05-10-2015, 08:46 AM
Maybe you could give your new list so that we can give our opinion.

Sure. MD Clique is a flex slot.

4/2/2 fetch
2/2/2 dual
1 island
1 swamp
3 mishra
2 tar pit
2 waste

4 shaman
1 clique

3 lily
3 jace

2 seize
2 pierce
2 disfigure
3 decay
3 deed
4 force

4 bs
4 standstill
2 dig


SB:
2 tarmo
1 tasigur
2 surgical
1-2 seize
2 flusterstorm
2 clique
1 krosan grip
2-3 additional removal
0-1 something (wanted to include 2 blue blasts, but they may not be necessary in GP meta)


I think your main concern should be the Omnishow MU (is rug so commmon ?).

While Omnishow is bad G1, I think I have enough board for it already. While RUG might not be most common among Delver decks, it's most difficult for me to beat, and if I can beat it I can beat BUG and others too.


Submerge?

Submerge isn't a permanent answer barring certain situations, and this deck can't really use it as a tempo play only.


The RUG Delver match should be a survive the first 4 turns and then crush them affair. If you have 3 Innocent Blood in the main and 1 in the SB and you're playing 4 Mishra's Factories you're about halfway there.

That's what the matchup is all about, except that you need more than survive first four turns - you have to stabilize. Factory can't be relied upon on early turns. It only stops Mongoose, they have Wastelands and Bolts and you are about to use your mana to other things anyway. It's okay in late game top deck mode when they have ran out of answers.


I think Innocent Bloods are indeed the best here, then Decay. For me it is not the matchup where I want beatdown creatures from sb. Another options are Ghastly Demise, Baleful Strix.


I don't want beatdown creatures either. I want creatures that block, and Goyf stops 2/3 their threats. Clique blocks and trades 2/3 their creatures, while obviously it's no goyf.

I used to play Ghastly Demise before Decay was a thing. I might try it again. Strix I have thought but it feels too much like a speed bump. I also like my removal to work against Infect, Painter and D&T. Then there is Dismember, but the life payment is significant.



I have used Surgical Extraction on Wasteland/Tropical to cripple their game, but I didn't tested it enough to give objective evaluation.

Ponders mb helps a lot.

For every game you win with this cute interaction, you'll lose three having do-nothing in your deck against a resolved threat. I tested MD Ponders but they wasn't that awesome. I'd rather just have more high impact cards.

theBloody
05-10-2015, 09:20 AM
Regarding having Delvers in the board, is there a budget-concern there? Because in a deck with 25-ish lands there is no guarantee that delver is quicker as a clock than Goyf (due to flipping more seldom) and Goyf is much better defensively. Strix has the exact opposite problem, it's only good on defence. I think that Goyf is the best creature (alongside Clique) in the SB due to it being good both on defence and offence. If you want a strictly offensive creature I think that Clique is the best choice, even if you can't play it T1.


Budget option for me to gain clock against storm. Would have rather played cliques.



For every game you win with this cute interaction, you'll lose three having do-nothing in your deck against a resolved threat.

I can see that. Not really recommending it.

FoolofaTook
05-10-2015, 10:30 AM
@Nastaboi

You only play 3 Mishra's and 2 Wastelands and you don't have Stifle or Ponder in the mix. That makes RUG Delver much harder to deal with. You can't get on top of them even on the play and their effects will come into play against you in the first few turns.

Maybe put some Stifles in the SB? When it's good it's very good and it's never better than it is against RUG Delver's early plan.

Nastaboi
05-10-2015, 03:38 PM
@Nastaboi

You only play 3 Mishra's and 2 Wastelands and you don't have Stifle or Ponder in the mix. That makes RUG Delver much harder to deal with. You can't get on top of them even on the play and their effects will come into play against you in the first few turns.

Maybe put some Stifles in the SB? When it's good it's very good and it's never better than it is against RUG Delver's early plan.

So you are suggesting that mana denial plan is the way to go against them? While you sometimes win an odd match when they miss on cantrip and you waste their only land, I seriously question mana denial as a main tactic against them.First of all, they are better mana denial deck. They have Dazes and cheap threats to make LD more effective while you won't do much with the tempo gained. Your mana denial has to be complete, you have to kill all their lands while they can just waste one dual and make you unable to cast half your spells. If both players try to choke each other mana, they will eventually get a threat in play and you will be unable to cast your answer. Adding more colorless lands do not help here. And finally, you have so many more targets for their Stifles. They have only fetchlands. In order to it be effective, you have to have it in opening hand and be on the play. Later on it's useless, and I can't afford to have situational cards in my deck in the matchup.

Some more removal options include Smother as a Decay that can hit manlands, relevant against Infect. One option is to replace Tasigur in board with another goyf and run one Murderous Cut.



Against Miracles, it's vital to fight over what's really important. Don't Force Top for example. You have no pressure (and they don't either) so the game will go long and they will find several more, especially if they play 4 ponders. Save your counterspells for the few key-spells that matters (and avoid taxing counters if possible as the games will go long). Nastaboi, have you experienced Liliana as problematic in the MU? I feel that if the miracles player has Top, then +1ing Liliana will hurt you more then them, if you haven't triggered standstill of something?


I missed this post when replying earlier today. I have always thought that without Top Miracles as a deck does nothing, but it could as well be other way around. Have to test the approach.

My feelings about Liliana are twofold. Sometimes it creates a soft lock that blows off half their lands at some point, sometimes it feels like you said. Of course if you have Loam online you can discard at will and hit some extra manlands in progress. I like it as it diversifies my threats, but it's not must-answer like in modern.

theBloody
05-10-2015, 07:03 PM
I think the main purpose of Stifle against RUG would be to stifle their Wasteland. Didn't tested that myself, but saw some top 8 lists with it in sb. Also somewhere at the beginning of this thread was discusion on this topic.

pandaman
05-10-2015, 09:03 PM
A word about manland against StP/Bolt/Terminus, albeit from my experience playing Landstill in Vintage. As soon as I see an opponent has removal, I tend, in my own mind, to abandon the manland plan and just decide that I'm going to win with Jace. It just makes so many of their cards dead and frees up your mana to play around conditional counterspells. This works well against decks like Grixis Control, UR Delver, and Hatebears (which run Bolt, Bolt, and StP respectively as removal). Because Brainstorm is restricted in Vintage and decks are loading up on removal due to the increase in creatures in Vintage metagames, I often manage to strand removal in hand by refusing to activate Factory. This equates to more dead cards for my opponent and therefore, indirectly, card advantage to me.

This is vintage, of course, but some aspects of the strategy are applicable to this deck. Against decks with Bolt, don't swing with Factory unless you can double-pump it, which will force them to have two Bolts. Don't even pump your Factory when you swing, so you can respond to a Bolt by double-pumping and make them 2-for-1 themselves if they really want to kill it. On defence, you do what you have to in the circumstances to protect your life total/Jace, so there aren't any hard and fast rules there. With TarPit, don't swing at all!

Against StP, unless you're protecting your life total/Jace, don't activate manlands at all. Especially against decks with Terminus. A good strategy is to let your opponent see you have manlands G1, and if you're in a dominant position let them hit one with a StP/Terminus to encourage them to leave those cards in G2. Then they have more dead cards!

Apologies if I'm telling you what you already know, but people often spill a hand of removal after I beat them in Vintage because I was patient and refused to play into it.

FoolofaTook
05-10-2015, 10:50 PM
I think the main purpose of Stifle against RUG would be to stifle their Wasteland. Didn't tested that myself, but saw some top 8 lists with it in sb. Also somewhere at the beginning of this thread was discusion on this topic.

Yes, that's the main purpose. If you have Stifle in hand at the start and blue dual (instead of a fetch or an island) you can put the dual out and they don't get a free shot at it turn 1 with a Wasteland. They also tempo themselves if they try to waste your underground sea and if they don't suspect Stifle in your build they will go for that bait like 90% of the time. Then turn 2 you have 2 lands out and you can win a counter war over their turn 2 play.

It is true that RUG Canadian has only 6 lands that are not effected by Stifle. However as Nastaboi points out you're not going to win an attrition war against them early on. If you drew the ridiculous hand of 3 or 4 Stifle/Wastelands in your opening hand by all means win that way. You'll destroy them when that happens with you on the play. It's just a very rare event.

Again, the main point of having Stifle in the build is not to deny them mana, it's to make their attempts to deny you your opening lands less easy.

ScottW
05-10-2015, 10:56 PM
Hello Everyone,

I've been playing BUG countertop for a year + now and after some consistent losses I'm considering making the change to BUG Landstill. I like heavy permission control decks and am used to winning via manlands or Jace. Any thoughts on lists? What attracts me most to this deck is wasteland + loam and standstill, Should I play wasteland / loam without DRS? Also, any thoughts on Hymn? My BUG countertop build is excellent against combo and I'm a little uneasy about leaving that.

Any advice is appreciated. Thanks in advance.

LarsLeif
05-11-2015, 04:56 AM
Top is very important for miracles, it enables the CounterTop Lock™, sets up Terminus and Entreat and also filters their draws which is powerful in the long run. But, as we aren't concerned with CB-lock (because decay) or Terminus I usually don't force it.

I really agree with what Pandaman said. Against most StP decks you will win with Jace most of the time. So shape your game-plan for that if possible. Use the manlands to generate card advantage under Standstill and pressure their planeswalkers if necessary, and make your game-plan about resolving and protecting Jace.

I would play Loam over Stifle I think. Recurring lands is very good against Delver (better than trying to get them with Stifle at least), and making sure you hit all your land-drops against Miracles is also pretty nice.


Hey ScottW!
There is several interesting lists being posted here lately. I posted mine recently but Nastaboi's and FoolofaTook's lists are also options to consider, along with your own mix of course.

I don't really like Waste/Loam with Standstill, that card wants you to just play draw-go while Loam/Waste wants you to tap out and trade resources. That being said I play a 1-off Loam for Delver/D&T but no wastelands.

Regarding Hymns, I personally don't like discard in the mainboard as they are a bit worse than permission with Standstill. I still play discard in the board of course. But it should be said that this deck is weak to combo game 1 in general, while post-board the combo matchup is pretty good.

pandaman
05-11-2015, 05:23 AM
I just want to point out against BUG, you can go to town with manlands, except on defence where they have Lili active of course. Abrupt Decay blows against Factory :)

Nastaboi
05-11-2015, 06:15 AM
Yes, that's the main purpose. If you have Stifle in hand at the start and blue dual (instead of a fetch or an island) you can put the dual out and they don't get a free shot at it turn 1 with a Wasteland. They also tempo themselves if they try to waste your underground sea and if they don't suspect Stifle in your build they will go for that bait like 90% of the time. Then turn 2 you have 2 lands out and you can win a counter war over their turn 2 play.


Okay, that makes more sense. It still requires you to be on play to be really effective, and I find it ineffective to hold mana up as I don't run Cspell first place and will board counters out anyway. I find fetching basic swamp as a first land and mulliganing hands that autolose to one Wasteland effective enough. Then there is Loam, which does not have to be in your hand at the time of Wasteland, and does not require keeping mana up. What I really like is that my deck is post board just removal+blockers, card draw and mana, no situational cards.


Hello Everyone,

I've been playing BUG countertop for a year + now and after some consistent losses I'm considering making the change to BUG Landstill. I like heavy permission control decks and am used to winning via manlands or Jace. Any thoughts on lists? What attracts me most to this deck is wasteland + loam and standstill, Should I play wasteland / loam without DRS? Also, any thoughts on Hymn? My BUG countertop build is excellent against combo and I'm a little uneasy about leaving that.

Any advice is appreciated. Thanks in advance.

As already said, there are several good lists you can combine and find a version you like. You can and in my opinion should play Waste+Loam without DRS, though how good they are individually or combined depends on metagame. Right now I feel Wasteland is needed and Loam is not, but I have played even 2nd Loam on side in past. If you go shamanless, 25 lands is a minimum.

Hymn is okay but Seize is just better. You have other ways to generate card advantage, so it's better to get a guaranteed hit. Combo matchup is not great G1, which is why big part of the sideboard is devoted against it. The deck is meant to prey on fair decks and ramdom stuff.



I really agree with what Pandaman said. Against most StP decks you will win with Jace most of the time. So shape your game-plan for that if possible. Use the manlands to generate card advantage under Standstill and pressure their planeswalkers if necessary, and make your game-plan about resolving and protecting Jace.


I wholeheartedly agree. The problem is, they have up to four red blasts post board. We have up to four Seize and manlands to pressure their Jace should it get on board, and both of us have Cliques. I don't feel like we have an advantage here, it will likely be about even at best.

LarsLeif
05-11-2015, 06:43 AM
I wholeheartedly agree. The problem is, they have up to four red blasts post board. We have up to four Seize and manlands to pressure their Jace should it get on board, and both of us have Cliques. I don't feel like we have an advantage here, it will likely be about even at best.

That is true, but remember that they need to boards stuff out for that many blasts. Probably they will board out CB, Terminus and maybe Entreat. That makes your manlands a bit better, which is pretty nice. We can board out a lot of removal, or use the fact that they board out removal and add goyfs even. What is also important to remember that we can generate more card advantage than them with Manlands/Standstill (if they don't blast/counter Standstill). I think that we should have a small edge post-board because of this.

Jizz
05-11-2015, 06:59 AM
@Nastaboi

On your list :
. 4 Standstill is a lot, why not play 3 ? (it's not very good vs rug) I would play 4 Standstill only with Main deck snare to compensate the On-the-draw drawback. But Bug landstill can't afford it in this metagame (Omnishow), so I would go back to 3 Standstill.

. Is there a reason you removed Life Main ? (it's nice vs Rug). I like this inevitability thing for a control deck to have, even if wasteland is less popular right now.

.Are you satisfied with 2 Dig ? I think it's quite a lot for a deck with only 4 Brainstorm. Also, not great vs Rug (it will be up too late with so few cantrips). I would play only 1.

SB
I prefer 1 Leyline of the void + Nihil Spellbomb (useful vs Mongoose) rather than 2 Surgical. Vs reanimator, you already have 2 fluster +2 pierce.


On the Rug MU :
With 3 Goyfs/Tasigur, Drs, decay, lili, fluster, 23 lands, the MU doesn't look that bad. I did test against it with a similar list. But maybe you were talking about the liliana-less build ? Tasigur + Deed is sweet.
Against Miracle :
I like Liliana. In my opinion, it is this very card that allows us to beat a reb deck. If they discard stp, I can attack with my lands ; if they discard a counterspell, I can play standstill. And Drs helps resolving it early. But Top directly counters this strategy and we don't have an answer for it . I thought about Pithing Needle/Null Rod (Nihil spellbomb out in this case) that is okay in this mu since deed will generally be used for 0. But Pierce/Force are maybe enough. Depending on my hand, I often counter top. What are your thoughts about it ?

Nastaboi
05-11-2015, 08:40 AM
@Nastaboi
On your list :
. 4 Standstill is a lot, why not play 3 ? (it's not very good vs rug) I would play 4 Standstill only with Main deck snare to compensate the On-the-draw drawback. But Bug landstill can't afford it in this metagame (Omnishow), so I would go back to 3 Standstill.


Thanks for the questions! I go back and forth between 3 and 4 and haven't really decided which is the right number. BTW nice that someone agrees with me on Pierce/Snare thing. :wink:



. Is there a reason you removed Life Main ? (it's nice vs Rug). I like this inevitability thing for a control deck to have, even if wasteland is less popular right now.


I like it too, lately it has just felt like a win more in many matchups. While it's nice against RUG, sometimes you don't have a green source and die it in hand, or just don't have the time to play it. I could see one in board if I have a room.



.Are you satisfied with 2 Dig ? I think it's quite a lot for a deck with only 4 Brainstorm. Also, not great vs Rug (it will be up too late with so few cantrips). I would play only 1.


I have liked 2 Dig so far. Usually you have other things to cast early turns anyway, and it gets often pirched to Force. I also have to include certain mass of blue cards to support Force, which means I will more likely to pick another Dig or Standstill instead of non-blue card if it's close.



SB
I prefer 1 Leyline of the void + Nihil Spellbomb (useful vs Mongoose) rather than 2 Surgical. Vs reanimator, you already have 2 fluster +2 pierce.


Surgical is mostly against Lands and other Loam decks.



On the Rug MU :
With 3 Goyfs/Tasigur, Drs, decay, lili, fluster, 23 lands, the MU doesn't look that bad. I did test against it with a similar list. But maybe you were talking about the liliana-less build ? Tasigur + Deed is sweet.


It's much worse in practice than it looks on paper. Flusterstorm is pretty bad against them, it won't counter their threats and if you are using it to resolve an answer, you are already playing around Daze that point. I'd rather have just more answers. But yes, I am talking about Liliana build which fares OK - with Lilianaless build the matchup felt hopeless.

Jizz
05-11-2015, 10:00 AM
I like flusterstorm vs Stifle that counters our lands, deed and lili, and reb for standstill etc...

I would play 1 Ponder instead of the second dig. You can still pitch it to Force and play it if needed :).

If you remove blue blast from the sb, mb swamp + forest might be a better choice md. In that case, you could go -1 bayou +1 Blue source.

Nastaboi
05-11-2015, 10:23 AM
I like flusterstorm vs Stifle that counters our lands, deed and lili, and reb for standstill etc...


If you have mana to counter Stifle on fetchland, changes are that you won't need the land that badly. And you might still be unable to cast the spell you needed to break fetch that turn, as you had to use your mana to cast Flusterstorm. Stifling Deed activation is a thing, I'll give you that.



I would play 1 Ponder instead of the second dig. You can still pitch it to Force and play it if needed :).

If you remove blue blast from the sb, mb swamp + forest might be a better choice md. In that case, you could go -1 bayou +1 Blue source.

These are reasonable suggestions, I will consider those swaps. Cutting down on Digs makes SB Murderous Cut more attractive choice.

FoolofaTook
05-12-2015, 03:09 PM
@Nastaboi

Just out of curiosity what do you do with 1 mana on the play turn 1? I'm guessing you don't Ponder or Brainstorm that often unless you had an iffy keep. Both of those options are worth more as the game develops.

I don't see how boarding in a couple of Stifles would hurt when you're on the play game 2 against a list that really bothers your mana base.

I play Stifles because I can't randomly lose to lists playing 3 and 4 wastelands and there are a lot of those these days. It's just a way to avoid getting tempo'd out by the lists that are good at doing that. It's also a pretty good card against a lot of the meta in it's own right if not the best thing to have in multiples early on against many lists.

If we live to turn 4 with 3 mana on the board we're going to win the game a big percentage of the time. If RUG Canadian and BUG Delver are causing issues due to the attack on the mana base Stifle is probably the best card to have available in the side to stop that. Pithing Needle is the other one because at least you can turn off RUG's wastelands.

Nastaboi
05-12-2015, 03:45 PM
@Nastaboi
Just out of curiosity what do you do with 1 mana on the play turn 1? I'm guessing you don't Ponder or Brainstorm that often unless you had an iffy keep. Both of those options are worth more as the game develops.


Play Deathrite Shaman or just fetch basic swamp and pass (sometimes Disfigure their Delver EOT). Play Tar Pit tapped if my opening contains no shaman or fetch. Ponder is an option, too.

FoolofaTook
05-12-2015, 04:37 PM
Play Deathrite Shaman or just fetch basic swamp and pass (sometimes Disfigure their Delver EOT). Play Tar Pit tapped if my opening contains no shaman or fetch. Ponder is an option, too.

Sitting on Stifle seems pretty strong against all of those scenarios except fetching the basic swamp, once you know you're playing Delver with wastes and stifles in the mix. I'm a bit biased because the east coast meta is such a delver lovefest. If you don't have the heavy delver meta then Stifle is maybe not a great option.

LarsLeif
05-13-2015, 04:13 AM
I think DTT is one of the reasons this kind of deck works, I wouldn't consider going down to just 1, at least not if it continues to be as good as it's been thus far.

I'm unsure if Stifle is better than, say, removal vs RUG. I can see it being potent on the play, maybe, but if the opponent is on the play and goes like Trop -> Delver, when are you casting your Stifle? Do you just play a fetch and pass the turn and try stifle their possible fetch or waste? What if they just hit you for 3, play another fetch and pass? What if they have Daze? I think that trying to hold up Stifle while also dealing with the board will be too much on the draw. Playing the full playsets of both Bloods and Decay should be better in that matchup I think.

Nastaboi
05-13-2015, 07:37 AM
I think DTT is one of the reasons this kind of deck works, I wouldn't consider going down to just 1, at least not if it continues to be as good as it's been thus far.

I lean to think the same. For me, bigger problem that having cards to delve is UU in cost - I usually won't have more blue mana available if I topdeck and main phase it late game. This is not as much an issue when I get to play it EOT, but still something that makes me reluctant to put in more copies. All things considered, I feel two to be the right number. Ponder is not without its virtues, it's great in opening hand and gives some more range on keepable hands, but choosing more powerful option is within the philosophy of the deck.


I'm unsure if Stifle is better than, say, removal vs RUG. I can see it being potent on the play, maybe, but if the opponent is on the play and goes like Trop -> Delver, when are you casting your Stifle? Do you just play a fetch and pass the turn and try stifle their possible fetch or waste? What if they just hit you for 3, play another fetch and pass? What if they have Daze? I think that trying to hold up Stifle while also dealing with the board will be too much on the draw. Playing the full playsets of both Bloods and Decay should be better in that matchup I think.

Exactly my thoughts. (Except I feel goyf as a blocker is so strong as a tactic that I'd look for other forms of removal than Innocent Bloods.)

LarsLeif
05-13-2015, 07:50 AM
Yeah, I also run with other removals than bloods and the full 4 goyfs SB. I think that being able to board goyfs when people might board out removal is very good and it makes the delver MU a lot easier as goose becomes a lot worse for them post-board.

About something else: Have you tried basic forest + swamp instead of island + swamp? I think that it might be a bit better as most decks that play wasteland also attacks with creatures, which you can easier deal with using swamp + forest.

Nastaboi
05-13-2015, 08:50 AM
About something else: Have you tried basic forest + swamp instead of island + swamp? I think that it might be a bit better as most decks that play wasteland also attacks with creatures, which you can easier deal with using swamp + forest.

I am testing it right now and have been liking it, though I'm not totally convinced. I spend my idle time trying to calculate in my head whether I want 3 Deltas / 1 Rainforest or 2/2 each in addition to four Catacombs. I always want to fetch swamp first, but also be able to get both basics at certain probability.

LarsLeif
05-13-2015, 09:01 AM
I play 10 fetches, so I can't say for sure, but I kind of like playing 4 Misty 4 VC and 2 PD. Just because if we have a basic forest online we can actually fetch Underground Seas into wasteland some of the time as we play 4 seas. But with Liliana I'm unsure, then maybe a larger % of black fetches are better.

ScottW
05-19-2015, 04:23 PM
I've been reading this thread and looking into standstill strategies. I've noticed many people commenting on standstill as a bad card / strategy. Why is this card so undervalued and underused? Non biased comments most welcomed!

pandaman
05-19-2015, 11:10 PM
It's undervalued and underused because it needs to be set up. You can Dig Through Time at any time you can cast if: it doesn't really matter too much what creatures and lands are on the board. Standstill, however, is a different beast. You can't play if if there's a creature on the board you can't deal with under Standstill. You can't play it if opp. might have a Flash creature to play in response and you can't deal with it. You can't play it if opp. has a manland you can't deal with. You can't play it if you don't have any way to pressure opp. to break the Standstill in your favour. It is these difficulties that make it undervalued and underused. However, there are some of us who realise that you can build a deck around the card, and that it is, without doubt, the strongest "draw 3" in Legacy. It should see more play (especially now, because Standstill decks match up amazingly with some of the DTBs right now).

FoolofaTook
05-19-2015, 11:58 PM
The other thing about Standstill is that the list needs to be built around it to make best use of it. The things you really want to do with it aren't in vogue right now and it takes a certain mindset to use it.

It also doesn't play all that well with the full cantrip shell, which is a factor that contributes to its outlier status.

Bobmans
05-20-2015, 01:10 AM
Can you "morph" a creature into play without breaking Standstill?

Lormador
05-20-2015, 03:41 AM
702.36. Morph

702.36a Morph is a static ability that functions in any zone from which you could play the card it’s on, and the morph effect works any time the card is face down. “Morph [cost]” means “You may cast this card as a 2/2 face-down creature with no text, no name, no subtypes, and no mana cost by paying 3 rather than paying its mana cost.” (See rule 707, “Face-Down Spells and Permanents.”)

So no, the rule specifically uses the verb "cast" to describe the act of putting in the 2/2 for 3.

As for Standstill, I've only just rediscovered the card (and this deck) although I used it in the context of Merfolk in the past. It is a beautiful thing, and what it does is fundamentally very powerful. The drawbacks and setup that it asks us to go through are what allow it to exist. Drawing 3 is crazy.

Nonetheless, there are good reasons why not everyone is playing with Standstill. Playing the card is a big commitment. It bets that the opponent will not be able to maintain board control throughout the decisive portion of the game, in a format where plenty of decks built to immediately sieze and maintain board advantage exist. It wants us to build a deck with a lot of instants, especially countermagic. It creates this tricky inflection point where the Standstill player has to nudge ahead on board and then slam Standstill, as with the classic T1 Disfigure your DRS T2 Factory, Standstill. Clearly plenty of things could go wrong there.

Comparing this to Miracles, none of the same hoops exist. I can drop Countertop while behind on board, take some more hits from whatever, and Terminus away my problems at a later time. Of course, Miracles doesn't get to draw 3... and as the best builds have more or less been discovered, tinkerers like myself turn to the alluring Standstill. It does a great job fueling Dig Through Time!

ScottW
05-20-2015, 10:41 AM
I play 10 fetches, so I can't say for sure, but I kind of like playing 4 Misty 4 VC and 2 PD. Just because if we have a basic forest online we can actually fetch Underground Seas into wasteland some of the time as we play 4 seas. But with Liliana I'm unsure, then maybe a larger % of black fetches are better.

10 fetches seems like too much. You're not resetting Top like in Miracles. Maybe if you have Deathrite but 8 to 9 seems right especially with any land recursion i.e. Loam or Crucible.

For basics, I've also considered the forest / swamp to make AD live through Moon but it seems like a downgrade. Island with Blue Blast and getting Usea and Trop out first is my take with BUG control. With this configuration, the fetches are more straightforward (U/X gets you anything).

FoolofaTook
05-20-2015, 10:37 PM
You can't have everything and play Control. You're going to have a weakness somewhere due to the nature of a reactive strategy and so many potential vectors for attacks to flow from. Moon effects is a good weakness to have right now because so few lists are playing Moons main and almost nobody has more than a couple of Moons in the sideboard.

In a meta where Moon effects were much more numerous than they currently are BUG would be a secondary player. Jund is a secondary player right now because you have to be able to beat Burn to be a tier list and Jund just can't beat that often enough to make the cut. If Blood Moons were as ubiquitous as Chain Lightnings BUG would be in a similar place.

LarsLeif
05-21-2015, 06:02 AM
Whoa, hold your horses my dear sirs.

First off, 10 Fetches is pushing it yes, but in a deck with 4 Brainstorms and 2 Jace (who usually ends up brainstorming a lot (lots!)) I could never see going below 9 fetches (trying that out right now), there just isn't any reason for that.

Secondly, It's not only about Moon, the Forest + Swamp setup is also just better against mana-denial in my opinion, as the decks most usually employing mana denial plays a lot of creatures. And what you want to be able to cast first and foremost against those decks is removal (pre-board) and removal + goyfs (post-board). So being able to quickly get an indestructible mana-base for you removal spells and goyfs is more valuable to me than being able to hold up reactive spells or something along those lines.

Thirdly, why "Island and Blue Blast"? Are you referring to especially the painter MU or something? Because as I said, my basics isn't only meant to hedge against moon, that just comes for free.

Lastly, I don't get the "You have to beat Burn to be a tier list" thing. One of Shardless BUG's worst matchups is Burn, and that deck is still tier. Burn is a deck to watch out for online and at your LGS, but I build decks for GP metas and I think Burn is amongst the last deck to worry about as both Miracles and OmniTell just crushes that deck.

That was my thoughts for the day at least.

FoolofaTook
05-21-2015, 09:33 AM
Forest + Swamp causes more color problems than it fixes. It makes the opening 7 more dicey to look at. It makes mulliganing more risky. It increases the chances of having no blue mana in the opening hand. It increases the chances of not having the colors you need on the board turn 2 or 3.

If we weren't already running Mishra's Factory and Wasteland it would be more plausible but I think it's very hard to win with BUGStill without running both of those cards.

Very long experience running similar lists has made me unwilling to run less than 14 blue sources and really not that happy with less than 16. 17 is the number I try to hit these days just to avoid having a round where I mull to 5 twice and lose off of that effect.

LarsLeif
05-21-2015, 09:44 AM
You don't have to fetch both of them if your hand is all blue, what I'm saying is that the blue spells are often less necessary than your BG-ones vs wasteland decks, just like miracles relies more on it's white cards than it's blue cards vs those decks.

Usually what happnes is that you fetch a Forest and then just fetch out Seas as I play 4 of those. But having access to both Forest + Swamp early has been good for me.

What do you refer to with the blue-source thing? I run 16 blue sources with the basic swamp + forest setup.

Edit: No wait, I'm stupid, I run 18 blue sources counting CTPs.

Nastaboi
05-22-2015, 12:42 PM
Counting cantrips as .25 blue source and shamans as .5 I have 17 blue sources. It's one less than I would like, but you have to make some compromises. To me, the main issue about basic forest is that it's basically another colorless source and drawing it sucks. Swamp and island can at least tap for colored mana for most spells. That said, I have liked swamp+forest setup very much as a hedge against Blood Moon. I like fetching swamp first as it casts all my removal spells.

FoolofaTook
05-22-2015, 09:01 PM
11.8% chance at zero blue mana in a list with 15 true blue sources. That's every 8.5 games you're looking at zero blue in your opening hand. If 2 of the blue sources are Creeping Tarpits you're at 16.3% chance of zero blue mana on turn 1. That's every 6 games. So you wind up with maybe 4 games in 8 rounds that you're mulling just because of blue mana. Then you have the mulls due to other consistency issues on top of that.

Counting cantrips towards second blue mana is fine but they don't get you the first.

Nastaboi
05-23-2015, 05:38 AM
Except that with my list, I don't need blue mana turn 1, and DRS and Tar Pit cast Standstill turn 2 just fine. But just counting probabilities on not having a true blue source in opening hand doesn't give you right estimation, because most hands that don't have a blue source are mulligans anyway (no lands or just one land). Therefore we should just take otherwise keepable into calculation. Luckily, Frank Karsten already did the work for us in his excellent article (http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/frank-analysis-how-many-colored-mana-sources-do-you-need-to-consistently-cast-your-spells/). His numbers claim that 14 real blue sources is enough, and I have found this to be true in practice.

FoolofaTook
05-23-2015, 11:03 AM
Except that with my list, I don't need blue mana turn 1, and DRS and Tar Pit cast Standstill turn 2 just fine. But just counting probabilities on not having a true blue source in opening hand doesn't give you right estimation, because most hands that don't have a blue source are mulligans anyway (no lands or just one land). Therefore we should just take otherwise keepable into calculation. Luckily, Frank Karsten already did the work for us in his excellent article (http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/frank-analysis-how-many-colored-mana-sources-do-you-need-to-consistently-cast-your-spells/). His numbers claim that 14 real blue sources is enough, and I have found this to be true in practice.

Read the article again. His recommendations are 14 sources to cast a 1cc spell of the color but almost everybody in his example lists, the successful lists in high level competition are actually running 16+ sources of the color needed.

This is kind of like saying, to dunk a basketball I recommend you be at least 6'2" tall but then pointing at a bunch of 6'4" players as proof of the concept.

Nastaboi
05-23-2015, 11:38 AM
Read the article again. His recommendations are 14 sources to cast a 1cc spell of the color but almost everybody in his example lists, the successful lists in high level competition are actually running 16+ sources of the color needed..

Except that they are not. The first list had abundance of turn one colored sources, but the second one had 15 and 12. The third one had 13 and 13. The fourth one had 14 and the fifth one only 11. The last one had only 9 untapped black sources to cast Thoughtseize turn one.

But that wasn't the point as you will run more than minimum number of colored sources whenever you can. The point was that calculating the minimum number you should only take account keepable hands, and my own experience suggest that his numbers are correct.

LarsLeif
05-24-2015, 03:38 PM
Yes, I also agree with Nastaboi that this decks blue-source count isn't an issue. We only want blue mana turn 1 for Spell Snare when we are on the draw essentially. 18 blue sources is absolutely enough I feel. Compare that number to some other decks that actually want a blue source turn 1 a lot more often than we do:

OmniTell (Shota's version from GP Kyoto): 16 blue sources.

Storm (GP Kyoto Top 8): 13 Blue sources (not counting 4 Petal)

Miracles (4-Ponder version) : 19 Blue sources

BUG Delver: Around 15 Blue sources


... And the list goes on. I think it is perfectly fine to run 18 blue sources, as we rarely need them turn 1 anyways.

ScottW
05-26-2015, 10:27 PM
Thirdly, why "Island and Blue Blast"? Are you referring to especially the painter MU or something? Because as I said, my basics isn't only meant to hedge against moon, that just comes for free.

This comment was just indicating that if you wanted a way out of Blood Moon, a sideboard Blue Blast along with your Island, cantrips, and card draw, would help with this. I really could not imagine the forest / swamp setup but you have more experience with the deck so I'll keep considering it. Thanks for the discussion.

Nastaboi
05-27-2015, 10:48 AM
This comment was just indicating that if you wanted a way out of Blood Moon, a sideboard Blue Blast along with your Island, cantrips, and card draw, would help with this. I really could not imagine the forest / swamp setup but you have more experience with the deck so I'll keep considering it. Thanks for the discussion.

Blue Blasts were more potent when Sneak and Show was the Show and Tell deck of choice. With that and UR Delver losing popularity, I like to find a way to combat Blood Moon otherwise and save SB slots. I still like Blue Blasts in local tournaments where Burn and Painter are more prevalent, but I like the new setup against wide meta.

ScottW
06-02-2015, 10:39 PM
I played in a few tournaments this past weekend with BUG Landstill and did rather well. This was my first experience with the deck and it was great. Standstill is incredible!

Things to note about my list:
4 Wastelands plus Loam - great!
4 Standstill + 2 DtT = tons of cards and always enough delve targets
1 Clique Main was great
Always won through manland damage (I have 3 Factory / 2 Tar Pit)

cdnza
06-04-2015, 10:24 PM
I played in a few tournaments this past weekend with BUG Landstill and did rather well. This was my first experience with the deck and it was great. Standstill is incredible!

Things to note about my list:
4 Wastelands plus Loam - great!
4 Standstill + 2 DtT = tons of cards and always enough delve targets
1 Clique Main was great
Always won through manland damage (I have 3 Factory / 2 Tar Pit)

Good to hear it man! I haven't played in almost three months but am hoping to jam some games this weekend.

Just to weigh in on the blue sources/basic lands debate, I think playing a basic forest is quite good if you run LftL because you can use that basic forest to cast LftL against Wasteland-heavy opponents. The other argument about fetchland count is influenced a bit by whether you run Deathrite Shaman. I have four Brainstorm, three Jace, a Dig and two Deathrites so I feel like 10 fetches is actually a pretty good number to enable all those things.

ScottW
06-05-2015, 07:43 PM
@cdnza:
Give a report if you have time.

Bobmans
06-08-2015, 06:01 PM
Today i decided to break my regular deck NicFit in order to play something that abuses DTT. Also i was looking for a deck in the BUG colors and that had massive cardadvantage, has Wasteland + loam interaction, runs Prrnicious Deed and Tasigur. Also Counterspell and planeswalkers. So i stumbled on BUGstill and played a couple of games against friends. Starting to fall in love with the deck. It felt pretty smooth overall and had all this cool interactions. Sometimes it did feel a bit slow on the early, but then again i need to learn to play it and what good keeps are. The manabase was not optimal for i was missing Tropical Islands and decided not to proxy them. I now know the imprtance of trops in this deck.

Games played:
0-2 Patriot
2-0 Patriot
2-1 Oozing
2-1 Esper Fearies
2-1 ANT

List:
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
2 Dig Through Time
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Life from the Loam
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs

Side:
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Krosan Grip
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Vraska the Unseen

Will configure to 2 trops and 1 bayou cutting down a basic, but which is best?. I feel like i actually do not want any basics or just one and run 4 USea main.
Loved the dredge and delve mechanic combined and will swap Toxic Deluge for Darkblast.
Now i had a 61 main and will cut a DRS as it was clogging my hand.
Never saw the walkers out of the board.
The goyfs where awesome vs combo.
Any tips on improving the list? Outside of the obvious manabase issues?

theBloody
06-09-2015, 05:13 AM
Do you not expect to run into Death and Taxes? Your config seems quite vulnerable against them. Legends maindeck, no Disfigure/other one cmc kill spell. Also you have 15 3+ cmc cards main. I would try to lower that. Dealing with Thalia seems troublesome without active Deathrite (only Decay is quick enough).

Glad you beat ANT. I'm always happy to see that :laugh:

Bobmans
06-09-2015, 07:06 AM
Do you not expect to run into Death and Taxes? Your config seems quite vulnerable against them. Legends maindeck, no Disfigure/other one cmc kill spell. Also you have 15 3+ cmc cards main. I would try to lower that. Dealing with Thalia seems troublesome without active Deathrite (only Decay is quick enough).

Glad you beat ANT. I'm always happy to see that [emoji23]
Yes, i am going to expect DnT, infact it is one of the matchup to prepare for. Along with the usual Miracles, Omni/Sneak, Delver variants, Reanimate, MUD, Lands.. etc.

This was the first time i actually played the list, so pointers are welcome. Also going to include a Murderous Cut in the board. Also i am hoping that Darkblast will be an awesome card to play. If it kills two creatures it does its job better then Disfigure (i think).

Edit: you think should cut some 3 drops, but i have a hard time figuring which ones:

1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Liliana of the Veil

Replacements?

Edit2: did some tweaking to the list and came up with this:

3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang lol forget the N and it got censored, wonder why.... :tongue:

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Liliana of the Veil

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
2 Dig Through Time

4 Force of Will
1 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce

1 Life from the Loam

2 Thoughtseize
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay

4 Mishra's Factory
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta

Board:
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Krosan Grip
1 Golgari Charm
1 Murderous Cut
1 Darkblast
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Garruk Relentless or Kiora, the Crashing Wave
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

theBloody
06-09-2015, 10:04 AM
Yeah, that looks better. Maybe -Tasigur, +Clique main to have better shot versus combo/miracles?

While Darkblast should do some serious work against DnT I still wonder if you are preboard favorite here (without Disfigure). It comes down to testing probably, ha.

Bobmans
06-09-2015, 10:25 AM
Yeah, that looks better. Maybe -Tasigur, +Clique main to have better shot versus combo/miracles?

While Darkblast should do some serious work against DnT I still wonder if you are preboard favorite here (without Disfigure). It comes down to testing probably, ha.
Luckily for me the person im going with to GP Lille is on DnT, so i will be testing that MU a LOT. Mr Bananaman deserves a md spot despite his appearance. He is just that good in conjunction with the entire list.

ScottW
06-13-2015, 09:16 PM
Yes, i am going to expect DnT, infact it is one of the matchup to prepare for. Along with the usual Miracles, Omni/Sneak, Delver variants, Reanimate, MUD, Lands.. etc.

This was the first time i actually played the list, so pointers are welcome. Also going to include a Murderous Cut in the board. Also i am hoping that Darkblast will be an awesome card to play. If it kills two creatures it does its job better then Disfigure (i think).

Edit: you think should cut some 3 drops, but i have a hard time figuring which ones:

1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Liliana of the Veil

Replacements?

Edit2: did some tweaking to the list and came up with this:

3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang lol forget the N and it got censored, wonder why.... :tongue:

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Liliana of the Veil

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
2 Dig Through Time

4 Force of Will
1 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce

1 Life from the Loam

2 Thoughtseize
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay

4 Mishra's Factory
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta

Board:
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Krosan Grip
1 Golgari Charm
1 Murderous Cut
1 Darkblast
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Garruk Relentless or Kiora, the Crashing Wave
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor




I noticed a few odd things about your list:

1. You have no spot removal with the exception of 3 Abrupt Decay. This seems difficult to imagine since you're best play is successfully casting a Standstill on an empty board. Pernicious Deed and Abrupt Decay are too slow to be the only cards for this. Most people go back and forth between Disfigure and Innocent Blood.
2. You do not have any Spell Snare. This card is great and I've had multiple players crack the Standstill with one of their key 2 drops for me to draw 3 into a Spell Snare and counter.

I like to have 25 lands when playing Wasteland and I play 4X. I like the Main Board LftL with this configuration as well.

Question: what MUs do you bring in all the Planeswalkers from the SB? Also, what does Kiora do?

Best,
Scott

ScottW
06-13-2015, 09:31 PM
Hello Everyone,

With the Meta development into decks that feature the beefy "delve" creatures like Tasigur and Gurmag Angler, I've been reconsidering the pros and cons of Innocent Blood versus Disfigure. I've always leaned on the side of Disfigure simply because I almost always want to target and do so on my opponent's end step. However, I though it would be useful to try and collect the pros and cons of each and then reconsider based on the findings. Of course this is specific to Standstill decks but any comments are welcomed.

I'll start by listing some issues with Disfigure because the list of creatures it kills is too long.

Cons of Disfigure:
True-Name Nemesis; Mother of Runes; high toughness creatures like Tasigur, Lodestone, Tarmogoyf, etc.; Monastery Mentor is often out of range as well.

Any thoughts / contributions?

Best,
Scott

Bobmans
06-14-2015, 02:01 AM
I noticed a few odd things about your list:

1. You have no spot removal with the exception of 3 Abrupt Decay. This seems difficult to imagine since you're best play is successfully casting a Standstill on an empty board. Pernicious Deed and Abrupt Decay are too slow to be the only cards for this. Most people go back and forth between Disfigure and Innocent Blood.
2. You do not have any Spell Snare. This card is great and I've had multiple players crack the Standstill with one of their key 2 drops for me to draw 3 into a Spell Snare and counter.

I like to have 25 lands when playing Wasteland and I play 4X. I like the Main Board LftL with this configuration as well.

Question: what MUs do you bring in all the Planeswalkers from the SB? Also, what does Kiora do?

Best,
Scott


Personally, i have the same issue's regarding the removal package. 3 AD, 3 Deeds, 3 Liliana and 2 Jace is on the (S)low side. As for Innocent Blood and Difigure, i am drawn more towards Innocent Blood. But often there is a boardstate where i can't either safe myself or have to sacrifice a creature aswell, which i do not like. Currently i am running 2 Golgari Charm (which also takes care of Rest in Peace), a Toxic Deluge and a Darkblast on the board. Still also the Maelstrom Pulse and a Krosan Grip. I might be looking into different removal. Somehow i am not feeling Murderous Cut yet. I like removal to hit more then one card at a time. THat is why i love playing Pernicious Deed. I would say that Deed is the card to blow against Mentor.

Spell Snare is a weird one here. Maybe i am simply lacking playtime with the deck, but i just do not like it that it hits only CMC 2 cards. I want to be able to hit Sword to Plowshares or Lightning Bolts to.

25 lands? I have been considering of going to 23 cutting down Polluted Delta nr 4. However i really like the LftL + Wasteland interaction in this deck. If we get it online early it simply prevents the opponent from doing anything (looking at you Delver.dec). For this i have been considering running LftL #2 on the board. Any thoughts on that?

I must admit, that i am a fan of playing Planeswalkers. It is hard for me to find a reason not to run them. Vraska the Unseen is my favorite, but the mana curve is pushing it to much. Jace #3 is missing in this deck actually. Being able to run this amount of planeswalkers is one of the things that attracts me to this deck. I have never actually played with Kiora before, but i can see her making Clique an ultimate blocker, or nullify a Germ token or opposing Tasigur until her ultimate hits. Also her -1 ability combined with LftL so you can double Wasteland in a turn seems juicy.
Garruk is there against control matchup's (Miracles), or where spitting out 2/2 tokens as both offense or defense is good (DnT/Stoneblade). Landing a Standstill after putting out Garruk seems something very strong here. His spot removal is overall less relevant, but can potentially take out a Phyrexian Revoker or Deathrite Shaman or w/e. His transformed form is not bad either, but i am never counting on Garruk for it.
If there was room in the deck i would run 7 walkers. 3/3 Jace/Liliana and an experimental one.

Currently i run a combo heavy meta where i'd rather play both Spell Pierce and Thoughtseize then switching to more removal. Deathrite Shaman is also contributing towards facing combo (ANT/Reanimate/Dredge) and it more then adding Innocent Blood. All-in-all my board is geared towards beating DnT and Pyrodude more. Very curious what the Miracles MU will be like and how well we fare against Omnishow.

Regardless, this deck is simply awesome and i am suprised that not more people are playing it. The combination of both Standstill and Dig Through Time is simply broken. Along with cards like Tasigur, Life from the Loam, manlands and planeswalkers make this deck very dangerous and beautiful.

Nastaboi
06-14-2015, 11:27 AM
I like 3 Decay/2 Disfigure split main with additional removal slots in side depending on meta. Disfigure is as its best against BUG Delver where it kills their both one-drops. It is okay versus Mom as you can often get her summoning sick. One small creature it does not kill is Painter which might or might not be relevant. I have one Murderous Cut and extra Decay in my side right now, but they could be anything depending on meta.

I don't like either Pierce or Snare, but you need to have some early interaction and critical number of blue cards to feed Force. If all OmniTell players switched to ANT overnight I'd switch to Snares in a heartbeat, but right now Pierce it is.

I have played 2nd Loam in sb when Shardless BUG and Jund were things to ensure victory in pseudo-mirror. I don't have room for it right now, but in certain metas it's definitely a consideration. Gives you some more percents against stuff like Cloudpost and Infect also.

If I wanted another planeswalker Garruk would be the first in line. I've seen someone run it before. I don't think it's better than another Jace, but it's right there next. One thing to remember is that it can be Decayed after it flips, which might come up sometimes.

ScottW
06-17-2015, 06:58 PM
I don't see the downside of Innocent Blood if you run so few creatures (I don't play Shaman). What MU is Innocent Blood worse than Disfigure? I can only think of maybe an Esper Blade (with Lingering Souls) or Mentor and Pyromancer decks. Everything else seems better. Is there really a creature you'd rather kill in a delver match? You're doing well to have them sac any creature and now you get to have a quick out to Nimble Mongoose.

All comments welcomed,
Scott

Lormador
06-17-2015, 07:28 PM
Innocent Blood's sorcerous casting speed is also inconvenient in the opening hand sometimes. If I have a Standstill in hand and my opponent plays a Turn 1 creature, I am prevented from T2 Standstill if my removal was Innocent Blood.

ScottW
06-17-2015, 08:34 PM
Innocent Blood's sorcerous casting speed is also inconvenient in the opening hand sometimes. If I have a Standstill in hand and my opponent plays a Turn 1 creature, I am prevented from T2 Standstill if my removal was Innocent Blood.

Thanks for bringing this up. I've considered this same point and exact sequence of "Disfigure on end step and then cast Standstill turn 2." This is the best case scenario when on the play, I agree, but still I'm not sure if it justifies Disfigure over Innocent Blood. It seems like you're including a sub-optimal card to cross your fingers on a narrow possibility. Yes, of course, the sorcery speed is the biggest issue.

Lormador
06-17-2015, 09:20 PM
Right, I just thought that difference was the only one you didn't mention in the initial query. The disadvantage of Disfigure is entirely a matter of opening hand convenience (T2 Standstill) and higher potency against token decks. I never really arrived at a satisfactory answer myself, and I've been playing a split of the two cards in hopes that one would become my favorite. It hasn't happened yet.

I don't think the T1 Disfigure T2 Standstill is a rare line at all though, it happens most of the time when on the play against a fair deck with Disfigure in the opening hand. As for the matchup where the difference is the most relevant, I'd say that has to be Elves. I could either get to use my T1 mana removing their DRS and then get potential value from my Standstill, or I could let that mana go to waste and watch them play two more creatures. At that point, Standstill is just Force of Will fodder.

ScottW
06-17-2015, 09:42 PM
Elves! Yes, this is another plus for Disfigure. This MU seems pretty favorable for us either way, however.

I'd be interested to see your list Lormador.

theBloody
06-18-2015, 02:42 AM
If you ditched creatures (read Deathrite Shamans) and play Innocent Blood, then you nearly can't beat Infect's Inkmoth Nexus. Your only out is Wasteland and Pernicious Deed (which is slow). Innocent Blood, Abrupt Decay, Liliana do nothing. So if your meta is plagued with infect (or manlands in general), better equip yourself with Disfigure.

I'm playing Innocent Blood because of how unconditional it is against any creature. It is equally powerful early and late game. I know I will take one opponent's creature no matter what (even with active Mother of Runes).

So my gameplan with IB is like: kill everything they have as soon as possible to prevent them from overrun you early. Survive this way long enough to play and detonate Pernicious Deed. Land Jace/Standstill to gain even more cards advantage and ride for victory. Of course it is possible to land Standstill earlier if you have opportunity (and you don't risking much by tapping out).

With Disfigure you can put more thoughts when to play it. Also you are getting more value of Snapcaster Mage.

ScottW
06-18-2015, 10:54 AM
@theBloody

I agree with your assessment but it's also worth considering Infect versus Miracles where they often have 3 to 4 StpS and Snacasters and still struggle with the MU. Inkmoths are often out of range for Disfigure as well.

You've brought up my biggest issue with Innocent Blood, which is the dis-synergy with Snapcaster. My goal is to optimize as many generic answers along with card selection and win conditions. Innocent Blood, as you indicated , fits this profile more. How do you side board versus Infect?

theBloody
06-18-2015, 02:50 PM
Against Infect I would side in every instant speed removal (Disfigures, Golgari Charms), discards, counters. Side out all Standstills, Ponders, some number of Jaces and Lilianas (if needed).

Yeah, you are right about Inkmoth getting easily out of Disfigure's range, but I can't think of better universal 1 cmc instant speed removal.

Nastaboi
06-26-2015, 03:59 PM
Against Infect I would side in every instant speed removal (Disfigures, Golgari Charms), discards, counters. Side out all Standstills, Ponders, some number of Jaces and Lilianas (if needed).

Yeah, you are right about Inkmoth getting easily out of Disfigure's range, but I can't think of better universal 1 cmc instant speed removal.

Thoughtseize is great and so is Flusterstorm, Pierce is so-so. Krosan Grip is nice if you have it as it kills Nexus (and sometimes Spellskite or Necropede) no questions asked. Standstills naturally come out. I just don't like siding out walkers while keeping Forces, as we'll have next to no ways to generate card advantage after that. I also like bringing in Clique as it blocks mentioned Nexus, disrupts and can help to win when you get the window, but I'd like to hear your thoughts on that. My plan ATM is something like:

-4 Standstill
-3 Jace
-2 Pierce
-1 something (Force? Lily? Creeping Tar Pit?)

+3 Clique
+2 Seize
+2 Flusterstorm
+2 additional removal (Decay and Cut ATM)
+1 Krosan Grip

theBloody
06-27-2015, 05:20 AM
Regarding card advantage. I'm playing 3 Dig Through Time + 2 Snapcasters, infect plays none of that (maybe one of Dig?). It is not a big edge but longer we survive, more apparent it will be. Also they are playing forces themselves. But yeah, if you have to use two forces early, things can go ugly really quickly.

I like your sideboarding. I didn't test Cliques myself, but they seems very good here. Just beware of Dazes. Good call on Krosan Grip, didn't think of that.

Dismember can overcome Invigorate so it could be good too if one can find room in sb. Playing around Pendelhaven will still be tricky though.

Nastaboi
06-27-2015, 06:52 AM
Krosan Grip is really well positioned right now. It's great against Omnitell and good against Miracles, Dn'T and Stoneblade, which covers basically all the top decks except Delver variants.

ScottW
06-27-2015, 10:35 AM
I agree with Krosan Grip being great right now. I played recently with 2 in the sideboard and got lucky enough to play a MUD deck. I felt somewhat bad for the guy. That MU is overkill with a cage and needle. Speaking of which, Pithing Needle on Inkmoth forces them to play a reactive game with their grips. I still like it despites the mentioned weakness .

LarsLeif
06-27-2015, 04:00 PM
I've not been playing much standstill for a while, but I have been thinking about the deck and might try this out later:

CREATURES (1)
1 Pearl Lake Ancient :-)

ENCHANTMENTS (4)
2 Standstill
2 Pernicious Deed

SORCERIES (9)
4 Ponder
4 Innocent Blood
1 Life from the Loam

INSTANTS (21)
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Dig Through Time
3 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare

PLANESWALKERS (2)
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

LANDS (23)
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
3 Mishra’s Factory
2 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit

SIDEBOARD (15)
3 Thoughtseize
2 Night of Souls’ Betrayal
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Krosan Grip
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Meekstone

The deck sacrifices a bit of the raw power of standstill in order to make DTT better. I think that this deck will lack the ability to Chain standstills into each other and just completely take over, but it (theoretically) makes up for that with more selection, leading to less situations where you draw the "wrong part of the deck" in specific matchups. If you try it out I would love to hear of your results.

Btw, NOSB is a great card against infect, I highly recommend it! :)

Nastaboi
06-28-2015, 04:25 PM
Your list seems really soft to Omnitell. If it's absent in your local meta then go for it, but I would not dare to take above list to an open meta like GP. Speaking of which, GP Lille is next weekend and I will be chaining Standstills there.

Ancestral
06-28-2015, 07:22 PM
Your list seems really soft to Omnitell. If it's absent in your local meta then go for it, but I would not dare to take above list to an open meta like GP. Speaking of which, GP Lille is next weekend and I will be chaining Standstills there.

and do you mind to share your decklist? :)

ScottW
06-28-2015, 09:01 PM
Your list seems really soft to Omnitell. If it's absent in your local meta then go for it, but I would not dare to take above list to an open meta like GP. Speaking of which, GP Lille is next weekend and I will be chaining Standstills there.


What would you recommend to fix it? I might sb another Vendilion Clique, add a few Spell Pierce MB, and a few Flusterstorms in the SB. I like the 1 Island Larsleif but I also couldn't imagine playing less than 4 Standstill. Dig is great but this doesn't seem like the deck to build around it. Standstill already takes that commitment.

I've commited to playing this deck for some time. If anybody is interested, feel free to PM to work on a list.

Nastaboi
06-29-2015, 07:07 AM
and do you mind to share your decklist? :)

Sure, not giving up much advantage by doing it.

4 catacomb
3 delta
1 misty
3 sea
2 trop
1 bayou
1 forest
1 swamp
3 waste
2 mishra
2 tar pit

4 shaman

3 lily
3 jace

2 seize
2 pierce
2 disfigure
3 decay
3 deed
4 force

4 bs
4 standstill
2 dig
1 loam

SB:
3 tarmo
3 clique
2 surgical
2 seize
2 flusterstorm
1 krosan grip
1 decay
1 murderous cut


What would you recommend to fix it? I might sb another Vendilion Clique, add a few Spell Pierce MB, and a few Flusterstorms in the SB.

That's a start, but I fear it's not enough. You either need a decent clock or a way to lock them out of game in addition to disruption. As you can see from my list, I have ten creatures post board along with Liliana and manlands. If you are not willing or able to go that far, you might look for ways to lockdown. Discard+surgical is one way (though a rather suspicious one). Cranial Extraction and similar does that in one card, but good luck resolving 4cc sorcery in time. Or you can go crazy and board like three Ionas. There is probably better ways, but you got the idea.


I've commited to playing this deck for some time.

I have everything from above list in foil except for one Tarmogoyf which I have a trade tentatively arranged. You may call it a level of commitment. :wink:

LarsLeif
06-29-2015, 01:17 PM
I feel that I need to explain my proposed list a bit more, I get that it feels weird.

Ok, let's start form the beginning: I have had a recurring problem when playing the deck historically. That problem is basically that the deck has two very different parts: The Removal Suite and the Counter Suite. My problem with that has been a lack of selection. In short, I have lacked a good way of regulating which part of the deck I draw.

So with this problem in mind I looked at the other prime control deck in legacy, Miracles. That deck also has two very different parts, but usually holds everything together with the following package:

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Top

Now, I don't think Top is good enough in this deck, it's obviously much better in miracles (because miracles). So that lead me to adapting the Ponders instead. Now, adding Ponders into this type of deck presents some consequences on the deck design, both good and bad. Firstly, we can run less lands. Secondly, we can run more spicy one-offs in the sideboard as we have more digging power. Thirdly DTT becomes better in this shell as we have a higher velocity and charge up our graveyard easier. These are the good things. The bad things with running Ponder is that Standstill becomes a bit worse, and we become more dependant on blue mana.

That's my reasoning at least, if you feel that the lack of selection doesn't harm you then I don't recommend trying it. But I think that it's something we may consider.

Regarding Omnitell, yes it's not the best pre-board, although post-board it's pretty good. Talking about it, I have been thinking of splashing for Slaughter Games actually. That card is very good vs both Miracles and Omnitell.

ScottW
07-08-2015, 08:12 PM
Nastaboi,
How'd the GP go?

Nastaboi
07-09-2015, 12:24 PM
Not that well. I started 3-0, then lost to Infect, managed a draw against Elves and got another draw against slow-playing DnT player. My board was

3 Goyf
3 Clique
2 Seize
2 Surgical
2 Flusterstorm
2 Krosan Grip
1 Murderous Cut

I went 14-7-3 total counting trials and side events. Matchups:

OmniTell 2-3
Infect 2-2
Lands 1-1
Reanimator 1-1
DnT 1-0-1
RUG Delver 1-0
Miracles 1-0
Goblins 1-0
Shardless BUG 1-0
Rg Burn 1-0
UW Stoneblade 1-0
MBC 1-0
BUG Delver 0-0-1
Elves 0-0-1

As you can see from the matchups, my boarding plan against OmniTell was not good enough. Or even if it was, G1 was nigh impossible (I won once when they fizzled). I would not play the deck as it is unless they ban Dig next week. If they do, I would add couple of Diabolic Edicts in side as it works against Emrakul, Marit Lage, Gurmag Angler and reanimate targets alike.

Ralf
07-09-2015, 01:00 PM
Not that well. I started 3-0, then lost to Infect, managed a draw against Elves and got another draw against slow-playing DnT player. My board was

3 Goyf
3 Clique
2 Seize
2 Surgical
2 Flusterstorm
2 Krosan Grip
1 Murderous Cut

I went 14-7-3 total counting trials and side events. Matchups:

OmniTell 2-3
Infect 2-2
Lands 1-1
Reanimator 1-1
DnT 1-0-1
RUG Delver 1-0
Miracles 1-0
Goblins 1-0
Shardless BUG 1-0
Rg Burn 1-0
UW Stoneblade 1-0
Pox 1-0
BUG Delver 0-0-1
Elves 0-0-1

As you can see from the matchups, my boarding plan against OmniTell was not good enough. Or even if it was, G1 was nigh impossible (I won once when they fizzled). I would not play the deck as it is unless they ban Dig next week. If they do, I would add couple of Diabolic Edicts in side as it works against Emrakul, Marit Lage, Gurmag Angler and reanimate targets alike.

I'm pretty sure I was your opponent during a trial =>mono black. But I was not on Pox !!! Rather on MBC.
Nice deck !

theBloody
07-09-2015, 02:27 PM
I would not play the deck as it is unless they ban Dig next week.

Exactly reason why I'm playing BUG control with 0 or 2 Standstills and 3 Digs. Standstill is not strong enough compared to Dig's unconditional card selection.

Nastaboi
07-09-2015, 05:37 PM
I'm pretty sure I was your opponent during a trial =>mono black. But I was not on Pox !!! Rather on MBC.
Nice deck !

MBC would indeed have been more accurate. Infinite removal, Geralf's Messengers, Infernal Contracts, Empty the Pits as wincon, red SB. Cool deck. Though it was on Sunday, not a Friday trial, but side event anyway.


Exactly reason why I'm playing BUG control with 0 or 2 Standstills and 3 Digs. Standstill is not strong enough compared to Dig's unconditional card selection.

I was just referring OmniTell as a horrible matchup and thus not advocating this deck right now. I do play two Dig myself, and playing more does not solve the MU.

Infect, while being a scary matchup, should be slightly positive. When I lost I felt it was close, when I won I won by a lot. The deck just loses to itself at times. SB plan I suggested earlier worked well for me, I ended up cutting a Factory as a last card. Clique was great in the matchup. And in every other matchup I brought it in.

ScottW
07-12-2015, 11:23 PM
I'll be playing this deck regardless. Standstill is incredibly fun and it's great how it positions the game.

Question: I'm not sure if this is correct but I often play Standstill as I would a Brainstorm in the sense that if they counter it (with the exception of Daze and sometimes Spell Pierce) then it becomes a source of card advantage, especially when they FoW. I'll often enter the "counter war" over it however, as winning this sub-game seems rather good.

Please don't be too harsh but I was recently playing for top 4 in a local tournament and, like and idiot, sequenced my Abrupt Decay and Standstill too quickly which gave my opponent +3 cards to my minus -1, and subsequently lost the game. I've been since putting my hand "face down" on the table after casting Standstill to guard against mechanical mistakes such as this. Like the die reminder on your deck for Ancestral Visions, does anyone have a suggestion for Standstill or is not being an idiot just good enough? (Truthfully, I feel like like I mistakenly got caught up thinking through too many plays ahead and often try to play quickly to avoid draws.)

Nastaboi
07-13-2015, 11:07 AM
So we'll have at least three more months with DTT Omnitell nonsense. I might take another deck for tournaments for time being, but continue to experiment with Standstills. One idea I have is to move Tarmogoyfs main and play like Shardless-less BUG. I'll report back if I ever get to test the approach.



Question: I'm not sure if this is correct but I often play Standstill as I would a Brainstorm in the sense that if they counter it (with the exception of Daze and sometimes Spell Pierce) then it becomes a source of card advantage, especially when they FoW. I'll often enter the "counter war" over it however, as winning this sub-game seems rather good.


I think I have never fought over Standstill and like you am generally satisfied if they counter it.



Please don't be too harsh but I was recently playing for top 4 in a local tournament and, like and idiot, sequenced my Abrupt Decay and Standstill too quickly which gave my opponent +3 cards to my minus -1, and subsequently lost the game. I've been since putting my hand "face down" on the table after casting Standstill to guard against mechanical mistakes such as this. Like the die reminder on your deck for Ancestral Visions, does anyone have a suggestion for Standstill or is not being an idiot just good enough? (Truthfully, I feel like like I mistakenly got caught up thinking through too many plays ahead and often try to play quickly to avoid draws.)

Well, when you do this once you'll bound to remember it rest of your life. Putting your hand face down on table works, and I recommend getting into habit of pointing at Standstill and declaring the trigger before picking up your cards. When you point at Standstill every time it will become muscle memory and you'll never do anything else before resolving Standstill any more.

ScottW
07-16-2015, 10:51 PM
Any thoughts on the Maverick MU? I can't seem to get around Mother plus Knight, which equals dead. I kept blowing my removal on the Mother and then was blank and / or Wasted out of Abrupt Decay mana.

cdnza
07-17-2015, 12:32 AM
Any thoughts on the Maverick MU? I can't seem to get around Mother plus Knight, which equals dead. I kept blowing my removal on the Mother and then was blank and / or Wasted out of Abrupt Decay mana.

I board in a Darkblast and a Disfigure. That means that for g2 and g3 my deck contains:

3 Disfigure
1 Darkblast
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse

plus Snapcaster Mages to reuse the above, in addition to Spell Snares and Spell Pierces (to hit GSZ). I've never found the GW(b) matchup to be that bad. What are you boarding in? I don't even think you need to worry that much about Mother if you have a Deed or a Deluge.

ScottW
07-19-2015, 10:17 PM
Cdnza,
I think I was misplaying the MU. I should have been easily favored. However, some changes I'm considering are:
-1 Cage / +1 Nihil (sideboard) I have a 2 / 1 split the other way currently.
Move to Innocent Blood (not Disfigure) and include 2 additional sweepers in the SB.
Adopt the forest / swamp as basics rather than the single Island.

Maybe I'll post a list if anybody's interested...

Bobmans
07-20-2015, 02:08 AM
Cdnza,
I think I was misplaying the MU. I should have been easily favored. However, some changes I'm considering are:
-1 Cage / +1 Nihil (sideboard) I have a 2 / 1 split the other way currently.
Move to Innocent Blood (not Disfigure) and include 2 additional sweepers in the SB.
Adopt the forest / swamp as basics rather than the single Island.

Maybe I'll post a list if anybody's interested...
I'd be very much interested. I just can't figure a solid 75. It feels like Disfigure is a necessary evil when not going for Innocent Blood and i am maybe hanging on to my 3 DRS, 1 Clique, 1 Tasigur main to much. Tasigur has been a life saver btw. Anyway, it feels like the list is lacking some solid spot removal.
Also i played some number of games against R/G Lands and found it to be a troublesome matchup. Even after boarding in Surgicals and having a Loam+Wasteland going myself.

Nastaboi
07-20-2015, 04:12 AM
I play 3 Deed main and Maverick has never been a problem for me. As long as they don't get a Knight active, you'll have time to dig for Deed as their other cards don't do much. You can however lose if you don't find Deed or they have a fast Knight and lock you out of mana.

I will try couple of Diabolic Edicts in SB in future. They work against Marit Lage, too! With my current configuration, I need Clique+planeswalker to answer the token with Wasteland buying time for them.

ScottW
07-27-2015, 04:40 PM
Any thoughts on 3-4 Hymn in SB or other discard? I've never used Hymn in a deck and don't really know its best function.

Thanks in advance.

LarsLeif
08-02-2015, 09:49 AM
Hymn is a disruptive card advantage spell. It's at its best in decks that wants to put on pressure early and attack mana bases, (like BUG Delver) because it can hit lands and becomes dead later in the game. It is also potent against critical mass decks like storm. I don't like it in slow control decks though. Thoughtseize is a better choice as we can generate card advantage through other means and we also want to hit specific things, not just random stuff.

ScottW
08-05-2015, 09:43 AM
Hi Everyone,
I played in a small tournament this past weekend. I included the 1 Forest / 1 Swamp mana base and it seemed to be spot on. I mistapped my mana once or twice but otherwise never had color issues. I had a UWR Pyromancer / Mentor opponent Clique himself to bottom a Blood Moon. I also played 3 Innocent Bloods and 1 Diabolic Edict MB and upped my wraths in the SB, which seemed to be fine as well. However, it seems to slow the deck down -- something I didn't consider. I beat a Legends Miracles deck by winning game 1 on turn 4 of extras turns (rather intense). I'll post a list soon.

ScottW
08-25-2015, 06:50 PM
I'm surprised no one is discussing UBG Landstill!

I keep arranging and rearranging my SB and was curious what everyone thought of 2 Trinisphere with some Cliques to have a shot at combo. Arcane Laboratory might be good as well for combo / burn. Thoughts? I don't own Goyfs to race btw.

Ahtii
09-05-2015, 06:36 PM
Went 3 - 3 today :(

played this list

Land (24)

1x Bayou
2x Creeping Tar Pit
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Polluted Delta
2x Tropical Island
3x Underground Sea
4x Wasteland

Enchantment (7)

3x Pernicious Deed
4x Standstill

Creature (4)

4x Deathrite Shaman

Instant (16)

4x Abrupt Decay
4x Brainstorm
1x Dig Through Time
2x Disfigure
4x Force of Will
1x Spell Pierce

Sorcery (4)

1x Life from the Loam
3x Thoughtseize

Planeswalker (5)

3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Liliana of the Veil

Sideboard (15)

1x Darkblast
1x Krosan Grip
1x Life from the Loam
3x Snapcaster Mage
2x Spell Pierce
2x Submerge
3x Surgical Extraction
1x Thoughtseize
1x Vendilion Clique

Won Grixis delver 2-1 , Lost GR lands 1-2 , Won Some fringe combo deck (cheerios?) 2-0 , Lost GR lands 1-2 , Won Death And Taxes 2-1 (Would have been draw , but opponent was nice and scooped to my Jace + Liliana lock when time was called) , Lost Merfolk 1-2

Not my day.

LarsLeif
09-06-2015, 08:10 AM
Why do you play Snapcaster in your sideboard? :P

Ahtii
09-06-2015, 10:22 AM
faster clock for combo matchups , i think snapcaster mages and vendilion cliques are the best disruption / beatdown , that is available. I understand playing Tarmogoyf on board , but I still dont agree on it.

If surgical extraction wouldnt be so good right now , I propably wouldnt play snapcaster mages.

LarsLeif
09-07-2015, 05:57 AM
Why don't you just play them in the MD though? It feels like they don't really add that much by themselves, unlike Tarmogoyf which is a much more aggressive creature that is also able to defend you from other goyfs etc. The strength of Tarmogoyf in the board has always been that people tend to board out a lot of removal, generating a lot of free wins by tarmogoyf just beating down quickly. Vendilion Clique also shares a lot of that by being a 3-powered creature.

I can see snapcaster mage being good, but that is because it's a good card, not because that it adds anything specific strength in certain matchups and thus I would hesitate about dedicating several sideboard-slots for them.

Ahtii
09-08-2015, 11:54 AM
I dont look them just as 3 sideboard slots. Yes, I do agree its not best suited as a Sideboard card , However snapcaster mage is quite bad in the deck as it is. I have 10 dead cards against combo that I have to sideboard out. (Loam , 4 Decay , 3 Deed , 2 Disfigure) So I will side 6 more spells in (1 thoughtseize , 2 spell pierce, 3 surgical extraction) and 3 snapcaster + 1 vendilion clique , Suddenly snapcaster looks lot more appealing when it actually has some targets!

Okay now that I have the 10 necessary cards that I totally need for combo , I ask myself, Where would I Need tarmogoyf or Snapcaster elsewhere?

My plan vs other tarmo decks is to leave standstills in and just add submerge for thoughtseize/Force of will/spell pierce. Sure tarmogoyf is good card , But I really dont feel like I need it. Those matchups are great anyway?

White decks often leave swords to plowshares for mishras factory / Drs , I dont want tarmogoyf there. And I already have sideboard caliber card in the maindeck as I run 3 pernicious deed.

I sideboard 2 Snapcaster mages in VS miracles , I wouldnt sideboard tarmo I think unless I would be in hurry to win 2 next games?

In fair matchups I dont even know what I would like to sideboard out? Deck just feels super strong as it is. So I chose to maximize my combo matchup postboard. I will propably replace spell pierces with Flusterstorms on board. After that , I cant think of any better 10 card sideboard for combo matchups overall.

LarsLeif
09-08-2015, 01:38 PM
Regarding matchups Landstill has very few unwinnable matchups, but Lands is not great, 12-post isn't great, shardless bug isn't great, miracles is 50/50, delver is 50/50 depending on which flavour, combo is pretty bad game 1 but very good post-board.

If you lose game 1 against miracles you will probably want goyfs. If you win game 1 you probably don't.

I can see that snappy becomes a good card after sideboard, that is only factual as the targets (in a combo-matchup for example) switches from the pre-board removal to spells that does something. I am just concerned that it creates some constraint in scenarios where you want to sideboard in nice snap-backable spells, but don't have enough dead cards to take out to make room for the 3 snapcaster mages. Or vice versa: you see a matchup where you want to sideboard in snappy, but don't have enough dead cards to also bring in the good snapcaster targets in your board. But this is strictly theorycrafting, I can't really state that it's wrong since I don't play your list or have any access to your sideboard tables. I have never seen it before though, which might be an indicator that it isn't such a good idea. Or maybe you are just the first one who has tested it, I have no clue :p

Submerge seems very bad though, that one I'm fairly certain about. I think that a control deck generally want to deal with threats on a permanent basis, which submerge, being a tempo-spell at it's best in green delver-mirrors, fails to do. A lot of delver decks have also moved away from the green creatures so it's worse now than it was before as card in general as well. It's not a good target for snapcaster either :p

Ahtii
09-08-2015, 02:58 PM
Submerge is 0 mana removal to resolve standstill , it doesnt have to be permanent if I can chain it into standstill---> planeswalker/deed.
Submerge is also answer to marit lage in lands matchup.
Submerge lets me play (tap out) planeswalkers into multiple (2) creatures, while still having the walker around.
Lands is only matchup where I would sideboard both submerges and snapcasters. and there I would only need to play it once really!

submerge has also potential for situational tricks that have blown the game away from opponent.
(ruin fixed delver flip , ruin their plans for shardless cascade , I have even used it to make lethal with Dark confidant to jund opponent !)


I understand that submerge doesnt help in Grixis / UR delver... But no can do. Have to beat them without ^_^


In my testing games submerges have been really good. I know this sounds too much like magical christmas land , Which is partially true. Im still just in love with the card.
And I am not saying that its correct to play it, I just like the card and I think I play little bit more with it to get better pespective about its power in the deck.

maharis
09-13-2015, 10:23 PM
What do you guys think of a Chalice/Landstill deck? I have been testing one for a few days and I think it might be good. I looked back in the thread and didn't see it really talked about.

2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Notion Thief
1 Baleful Strix
1 Pack Rat

4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void

4 Force of Will
4 Dig Through Time
4 Standstill
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Counterspell
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Life from the Loam
1 Shadow of Doubt
1 Sylvan Library
1 Toxic Deluge

4 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Creeping Tar Pit

My idea is that while 4 standstill 4 dig can seem clunky, you can use Force aggressively and also pitch the extras to Pack Rat late. Mox Diamond also puts a card in the GY for dig.

I don't think this list is really optimized -- I don't know about some of the one-ofs -- but it is capable of really oppressive starts, like t1 chalice t2 standstill, or even just t1 standstill on the play.

The major weakness is decks like Grixis getting under it with Delver or DRS. Not being able to play Deed has been tough. Deluge is good but is tough against Delve creatures. (Then again, so is Deed). Damnation might be better, but I don't have one and not about to spend $50 on it right now. However snap-decay can out-attrition hem, and it's perfectly OK to just force aggressively early if you have a lock piece on the next turn.

The one change I think would be really good is going to a Depths/Stage package. I would have to cut some number of Factories, but it adds an "I win" button that can be dug up with DTT. And of course, you can always remove Depths counters under a Standstill.

Any opinions?

cdnza
09-13-2015, 10:35 PM
4 Dig in a deck that can't run Brainstorm/Ponder/Gitaxian Probe/Preordain/etc seems rather aggressive. I'm not even sure how you cast Dig? I'm also not sure why you aren't running Wasteland.

Do test it some more and keep us updated though - I'd love for a BUG Standstill deck to be viable again and this certainly looks like an interesting approach :)

Nastaboi
09-14-2015, 10:04 AM
My plan vs other tarmo decks is to leave standstills in and just add submerge for thoughtseize/Force of will/spell pierce. Sure tarmogoyf is good card , But I really dont feel like I need it. Those matchups are great anyway?

White decks often leave swords to plowshares for mishras factory / Drs , I dont want tarmogoyf there. And I already have sideboard caliber card in the maindeck as I run 3 pernicious deed.

I sideboard 2 Snapcaster mages in VS miracles , I wouldnt sideboard tarmo I think unless I would be in hurry to win 2 next games?

You need more creatures to bring in combo matchups to provide a reasonable clock with your disruption. I like Tarmo as it has uses in other MU:s as well: you can bring in as an extra blocker or if you need to win two games against round clock. You don't necessarily need it to close other matches than combo, and so I'm thinking of replacing them with a Scrubland and Meddling Mages like Shardless BUG to have more game against Omni. Thoughts?


Regarding matchups Landstill has very few unwinnable matchups, but Lands is not great, 12-post isn't great, shardless bug isn't great, miracles is 50/50, delver is 50/50 depending on which flavour, combo is pretty bad game 1 but very good post-board.

12-post is unwinnable (unless you hit multiple Wastes and Loam), but Shardless BUG is really good. It's like mirror match, but you have manlands, more walkers, better card draw spell and more ways to gain Deathrite advantage. I have lost to Shardless BUG only once and even then it was a combination of color screw and blatant misplay. And while other combo is OK-good, Omnitell is rather bad.

LarsLeif
09-15-2015, 08:57 AM
You need more creatures to bring in combo matchups to provide a reasonable clock with your disruption. I like Tarmo as it has uses in other MU:s as well: you can bring in as an extra blocker or if you need to win two games against round clock. You don't necessarily need it to close other matches than combo, and so I'm thinking of replacing them with a Scrubland and Meddling Mages like Shardless BUG to have more game against Omni. Thoughts?



12-post is unwinnable (unless you hit multiple Wastes and Loam), but Shardless BUG is really good. It's like mirror match, but you have manlands, more walkers, better card draw spell and more ways to gain Deathrite advantage. I have lost to Shardless BUG only once and even then it was a combination of color screw and blatant misplay. And while other combo is OK-good, Omnitell is rather bad.

I think it is mostly correct to play MM over Tarmos if you feel that you don't need the clock + blocker and also really need to increase your combo win%. It feels like a meta call? It's very good in Shardless as you can cascade into it and because that deck can't really play Flusterstorm/Pierce etc. Don't know if we need to go there. I am thinking about a red splash for a few blasts and 1-2 Slaughter Games though.

I think it depends a lot on the Shardless list. Some lists only play 2 wastelands etc, some play strixes. I think a shardless list that plays quad waste and no bad creatures like strix is a pretty even matchup, and very dependent on tempo (we want to land standstill, but the board needs to be empty etc).

ScottW
09-22-2015, 12:54 PM
Any thoughts on the new G/U creature land? 5 mana is a lot to activate but a 3/3 with hexproof is interesting to say the least. How is this removed beside terminus or Diabolic Edict? We're almost there with Tar Pit as it is. I know 1 mana less, being a black mana source, and unblockable is a tremendous hurtle but still curious...

jrsthethird
09-22-2015, 03:24 PM
Any thoughts on the new G/U creature land? 5 mana is a lot to activate but a 3/3 with hexproof is interesting to say the least. How is this removed beside terminus or Diabolic Edict? We're almost there with Tar Pit as it is. I know 1 mana less, being a black mana source, and unblockable is a tremendous hurtle but still curious...

Wasteland is a card. Just sayin'

ScottW
09-22-2015, 09:53 PM
Wasteland is a card. Just sayin'

Of course, but that's a given. What else that's played??? What removal?

LarsLeif
09-24-2015, 07:24 AM
I like the card, but I'm still unsure about it, 4 mana is a lot. Removal-wise Terminus is a card, but other than that not much, which is appealing in the control mirror etc. Still, tapping out to attack for 3 and letting the opponent probably win the fight over Jace etc next turn is not ideal.

Jon
09-28-2015, 05:35 PM
Hello all, I have only ever played a UWx or UR varient of landstill but I feel I want to give a BUG version a shot, listed is my thought experiment based on the banning of DTT! (Based on the latest So Many Insane Podcast ideas)

4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Jace, Vryns Prodigy
3 Snapcaster Mage

4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Murderous Cut
2 Spell Snare
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Life from the Loam
1 Counterspell
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Engineered Explosives

2-3 Kiora, Master of the Depths



Not sure how the manabase looks yet but interested in starting an actual discussion !

Aronesxd
09-29-2015, 04:39 PM
Interessting list i though a few days about this deck and i got nearly this list feat. baby Jace :D
But i'm not sure about Kiora, Master of the Depths . I am missing something, because i guess that this card has much more power in decks with at least 15 creatures. This deck shouldn't be to creature based.

Bobmans
10-13-2015, 01:58 PM
So wheres everyone currently at with this deck now the dust is clearing after the ban?

I have been puzzling, but can't seem to settle on a final list. Choices like SCM or not, going 4x DRS or 3/4x I.Blood, Ponder or not, the nr of walkers to include. What removal to bring like Murderous Cut or Disfigure. Also having some doubts about P.Deeds. Maindeck discard; Thoughtseize vs Hymn (or both). All random thoughts, but i keep circling and never settle on something solid.

Nastaboi
10-24-2015, 06:52 AM
I don't like Snapcaster in the deck as we don't have good 1cc instants to flash back or not so many instants whatsoever. Clique is much better three-drop, I always have three somewhere in my 75.

I think DRS is a must. It brings irreplaceable velocity to the deck. I play a mix of Decay/Disfugure main and have Diabolic Edicts in side. Diabolic Edict hitting Marit Lage is relevant. I played Murderous Cut in Lille and lost a match where an Infect player randomly bought Bojuka Bog in which prevented me casting Cut in time. Besides, Diabolic Edict has a badass picture.

If you feel Deed is bad then you should consider playing Shardless instead.

And Seize is so much better than Hymn in this deck. It's cheaper and easier on mana. You don't need Hymn as a card advantage engine as you have that base already covered, but you need Seize to keep sure you survive long enough for that card advantage to kick in. And you can't capitalize if you happen to randomly mana screw an opponent with Hymn, because the game will go long and eventually she'll draw into lands.

Hope that gave you some direction on which way to go on card choises.

Lähetetty minun Nexus 5 laitteesta Tapatalkilla

ScottW
11-09-2015, 07:16 PM
I've been thinking of adding W to this deck to get 2 Stoneforge Mystic and 4 StP. Any thoughts? I might sleeve it up... You also gain strong combo hate post board with Meddling Mage / Cannonist / RIP. The mana base is strained but I've found a way to keep 1 forest / 1 swamp while still running 3-4 Factory. I have a MD Life from the Loam / 3 Abrupt Decay / 2 Pernicious Deed.
Is this crazy? Any thoughts?

Nastaboi
11-10-2015, 04:48 AM
If you go to zero double black casters it could be doable. However, I'd try Mentor before SFM as a wincon - the card is nuts even without Top shenanigans. Also RIP is not worth if you have Shamans (Loam you can just SB out if you bring it in), but I don't see how 4c base would consistently work without them. Cont. Priest is also likely a better hate bear than Meddling Mage now that OmniTell players have switched to Sneak n' Show.

On other news, I'm seriously considering adding a couple of Pithing Needles to board. I have shied away from permanent-based hate as it collides with Deed, but you'll side all Deeds out against lands and Sneak and Show, likely some Deeds against Miracles, and against decks like Infect, DnT and Painter it could still be worthwhile. Thoughts?

Ralf
11-10-2015, 05:39 AM
On other news, I'm seriously considering adding a couple of Pithing Needles to board. I have shied away from permanent-based hate as it collides with Deed, but you'll side all Deeds out against lands and Sneak and Show, likely some Deeds against Miracles, and against decks like Infect, DnT and Painter it could still be worthwhile. Thoughts?

I wouldn't shave any deed against miracle as once you have resolved one, your opponent has to deal with it before killing you with Entreat.

Nastaboi
11-10-2015, 06:12 AM
I wouldn't shave any deed against miracle as once you have resolved one, your opponent has to deal with it before killing you with Entreat.

Or they just ignore it, resolve Jace and win with it. 1-2 Deeds are nice as an insurance against Entreat, but they don't help you at all winning Jace wars, which makes them less stellar. Most builds nowadays have only one Entreat and a couple of Mentors, and while Deed also works as a safe button against resolved Mentor, you have other ways to deal with it. I like Decay more than Deed against modern Miracle builds.

ScottW
11-10-2015, 12:29 PM
If you go to zero double black casters it could be doable. However, I'd try Mentor before SFM as a wincon - the card is nuts even without Top shenanigans. Also RIP is not worth if you have Shamans (Loam you can just SB out if you bring it in), but I don't see how 4c base would consistently work without them. Cont. Priest is also likely a better hate bear than Meddling Mage now that OmniTell players have switched to Sneak n' Show.

On other news, I'm seriously considering adding a couple of Pithing Needles to board. I have shied away from permanent-based hate as it collides with Deed, but you'll side all Deeds out against lands and Sneak and Show, likely some Deeds against Miracles, and against decks like Infect, DnT and Painter it could still be worthwhile. Thoughts?

I'll consider the mentor but I'm not immediately sold. I like the stoneforge specifically for the Batterskull, which has almost infinite resiliency. I'm also not using Deathrite as I want to keep creatures low. The RIP might not have been a good consideration in conjunction with Loam. Still ruminating.

maharis
11-13-2015, 04:38 PM
Hi, I put together a version of this deck for a local last night. I feel like Standstill is a good card right now with a little less Delver around and more durdly decks at the top of the format. I also wanted to play Tolaria West, Mox Diamond, Crop Rotation, and Dark Depths for no particular reason.

4 Baleful Strix
2 Snapcaster Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Standstill
4 Mox Diamond
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Life from the Loam
2 Innocent Blood
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Counterspell
1 Sylvan Library
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Crop Rotation
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Tolaria West
2 Mishra's Factory
2 Thespian's Stage
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Dark Depths
1 Academy Ruins
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Bojuka Bog

1 Flusterstorm
1 Envelop
1 Spell Pierce
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Chill
1 Misdirection
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Spell Snare
1 Crop Rotation
1 Karakas
1 Pithing Needle
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Krosan Grip
1 Vendilion Clique

I didn't have a great run but the deck was fun.

Rd. 1 Miracles: Pairings are announced and I'm paired against someone who I know is on Miracles as he has been for what seems like decades. "We're definitely going to time," I say. Game 1 did not disappoint as we played for about 35 minutes until I was Jaced out. I actually did have outs after putting my hand on my library, since I had both Stages in hand and DD in play, but shuffled them to the bottom and couldn't assemble a win in time. In game 2 we went to turns and it was a 1-0-1.

Rd. 2 Enchantress: We didn't go to time but got pretty close. It's hard for them to have a way to win before you can find and jam a Standstill. Also had a bunch of cards that were randomly good against him like EE and Innocent Blood (for Argothian). I took it by 2-1

Rd. 3 MUD-post: This is a really tough matchup. They have to play into Standstill, but their threats are so high-quality that Standstill could draw me 9 cards and I wouldn't be able to assemble a good answer. I did have a fun moment when I played an EE for 4 to wipe out Lodestone Golem, but the matchup is just generally lopsided. He won 0-2.

Rd. 4 Food Chain: This is an interesting matchup because while they can be kind of durdly, Manipulate Fate is like their own Standstill and that ended up being a big factor as he was able to chain Griffins the fair way faster than I could put Strixes in their way. In game 2 Marit Lage arrived rather quickly.

In game 3 I had double Crop Rotation in hand and his hand was Manipulate Fate and unknown (he had already removed 3 of 4 griffins). I played Crop Rotation, held priority, played the second. He did have the Force for one of them. I did consider getting Depths anyway and hoping to dig for Stage, but instead got Academy Ruins so I could recur Strixes and EE. Of course I ripped Snapcaster off the top, which meant I could flash back CR, and if I had gotten half of the combo the other half would've been there for me. Now I know to count it as an out. Anyway, I lost because he had more Griffins and Deathrites than I had answers. 1-2.

I know the deck needs work, maybe some more sweepers like Toxic Deluge or similar. Still a blast to play and I do believe in Standstill as a card right now. Thanks for help.

Nastaboi
11-19-2015, 02:19 AM
Play Wasteland. You need it anyway to control opposing manlands and Depths, and it gives you an out against Cloudpost decks and such. You even have two Loam!


I played Crop Rotation, held priority, played the second. He did have the Force for one of them.

Why make such a play? Isn't it much better to play one Crop and see if it resolves first? The way you played it gives your opponent an option to see what you get from the first Crop and then counter the second one, thus forcing you to commit getting Stage or Depths. And God forbid if they got Flusterstorm.

maharis
11-19-2015, 01:17 PM
Yeah, I think I definitely want Wasteland. Gotta find room.

On the CR play, the way I put it was just a nice way of saying "I thought he only had one card in hand and it was Manipulate Fate." I just made a mistake by announcing "double crop rotation" when it turned out he had drawn a Force (which he used pitching Manipulate Fate, emptying his hand). I wrote it the way it did to reflect what effectively happened.

steelydanno
11-24-2015, 10:49 AM
Hey everyone,

I'm pretty much a legacy beginner, so thanks in advance for your patience--I've been playing around with BUG control featuring landstill a bit lately, and when somebody referred me to this site I found this thread and took a bunch of cues, mainly from Nastaboi's most recent list. I played in a SCG IQ on Friday did pretty well, but my unfamiliarity with the deck and its matchups resulted in a slew of play mistakes and I just missed the knockout rounds. But I think the deck is very good and I am trying to optimize it for this weekend's SCG Legacy Open in New Jersey. I'd like to put up the list as it is now and see if anyone has some suggestions on card choices and sideboarding strategies, which I'm still trying to figure out.

3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Deathrite Shaman

4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
1 Life from the Loam

3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Disfigure

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce

2 Thoughtseize

(24 Land)
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland

SIDEBOARD
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Golgari Charm
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Krosan Grip
1 Life from the Loam
1 Garruk Relentless

I would like to have access to a basic island, but the manabase is already tenuous with all the colorless lands and tar pits.

Spell Pierce is underwhelming, but I need the early interaction with combo. Thinking about cutting one and adding a third thoughtseize, but I also need to worry about maintaining enough blue cards to fuel FOW.

The biggest sideboarding question I have is the Tarmogoyf/Clique aggro plan. From reading this thread I know to bring them in against combo decks and when time is growing short on the round clock. But while only a few cards in the deck are ever truly dead in any given matchup, what cards should I board out in various situations?

This weekend, the decks I most expect to see are Delver variants, Sneak & Show, Storm, Stoneblade variants, Miracles, and Lands.

If anyone has any comments or suggestions I'd be very grateful. Thanks!

ScottW
11-24-2015, 06:46 PM
0@Steelydanno,

Landstill is great. I think you're a little low on spot removal and possibly sweepers or at minimum you should diversify the sweepers (maybe 2 Deeds and 1 Toxic Deluge.) Personally, I favor a more reactive, stack-based build with no discard main, no Deathrite or Liliana. I'm experimenting with a WUBG including 4 StP and 2 Stoneforge. The white splash fixes the very weak combo match up. If I stick with the UBG build I would use Innocent Blood with sweepers. I like a high density counterspells including both pierce and snare (Spell Snare is always great). I would also look at your mana base. I think you should have 3-4 Mishra's and 0-1 Tarpits. The Factory works well in multiples and is often faster with pumping due to the low mana cost. They are great chump blockers with LftL recursion.

Nastaboi
11-26-2015, 05:08 PM
But while only a few cards in the deck are ever truly dead in any given matchup, what cards should I board out in various situations?

Creature removal is obviously bad against some decks, and against some decks specific kind of removal is clearly ineffective. Deed and Disfigure get boarded out a lot.

You want to board Force of Will out against fair decks, unless they have combo elements (Elves), must counters (Price of Progress, Blood Moon), or you have even more dead cards to side out (against Lands). I like to keep Forces in against Delver decks if on draw and/or they play Stifle so that I don't get tempoed out.

Standstill comes out against decks with Vial (DnT), opposing manlands (Infect) or both (Merfolk). It's pretty bad against combo, but you might be forced to leave some in as you run out of better cards to bring in.

Thoughtseize comes out against tempo decks and burn. Spell Pierce comes out when it's obvious.

Loam comes out when you don't need to attack their special lands and they don't have Waste. You can also shave a land if they don't attack your manabase.

Jace comes out when you feel he's too slow to have an impact.

Nice list BTW :wink:

Bobmans
11-26-2015, 07:17 PM
Standstill comes out against decks.... It's pretty bad against combo, but you might be forced to leave some in as you run out of better cards to bring in.

So if i understand correct, you find Standstill bad vs combo? Well, if so, i must disagree. Dropping a T2 Standstill vs combo is pretty though vs them. Firing of a combo into (more) countermagic is pretty strong. In most cases a Standstill equals a FoW vs combo decks.

ScottW
11-27-2015, 12:52 AM
It seems like lists that use Deathrite, Liliana, and discard are just clunky versions of Shardless BUG. Standstill has great stack-based interaction and so fits better with instants and therefore countermagic. Whatever you choose, good luck and please post any results.

steelydanno
11-27-2015, 01:47 PM
Thanks everyone for your advice and suggestions. I'm probably going to stick with the Liliana/Deathrite list for this tournament as that's what I'm most comfortable with. Now just tinkering around with the sideboard:

3 Tarmogoyf
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
1 Golgari Charm
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Krosan Grip
1 Life From the Loam (1 in MD)
1 Ensnaring Bridge

I feel good about most of this, but I'm not sure about the last two cards. Loam to protect tempo's early land destruction and close out against their fragile manabase, Bridge for Sneak n Show and Elves. I think they're fine but there might be better options.

I like the idea of Notion Thief to beat opposing Jace decks. Anybody have an opinion about him?

Nastaboi
11-27-2015, 02:24 PM
So if i understand correct, you find Standstill bad vs combo? Well, if so, i must disagree. Dropping a T2 Standstill vs combo is pretty though vs them. Firing of a combo into (more) countermagic is pretty strong. In most cases a Standstill equals a FoW vs combo decks.

My play experience tells exactly the opposite. If you tap out for turn 2 Standstill, they will just combo out next turn if they can beat one counter. If not, they have about 10 turns to make land drops and sculpt a perfect hand, and then win even if they give three random cards to opponent. Standstill is only good when you have developed a clock in board first, and even then you are probably better of keeping mana up and leaving Standstill in hand as Force fodder.


I feel good about most of this, but I'm not sure about the last two cards. Loam to protect tempo's early land destruction and close out against their fragile manabase, Bridge for Sneak n Show and Elves. I think they're fine but there might be better options.

I like the idea of Notion Thief to beat opposing Jace decks. Anybody have an opinion about him?

I have played extra Loam in SB for a long time and does well what you are excepting from it. Right now I prioritize on other SB options, but have Loam always in mind when considering those last slots. Notion Thief is a beating but it only really helps good matchups, so I haven't found a room for him though I'd love to play with him. It's just dirty, drawing their card after clique'd them or breaking your own Standstills right after playing them.

I don't like Bridge vs Elves, they can just attack with one power creatures or gun you down with Shamans. And they have Sage for it and might even bring in Decay. I'd prefer something a bit more versatile to Bridge.

Ricardio
05-02-2016, 11:16 AM
I had no idea this was a deck with a thread, if only I had come here first. Thanks ScottW



I built Bugstill and ran it at my local sunday legacy. had around 20 people I think so 5 rounds.

R1 DNT Billy
G1: I get to t1 drs, t2 ponder, standstill. He plays out a bunch of threats and then a revoker naming deed. I lose.
G2: He had to defensively cataclysm but kept a port and I wasted it. then he drew a vial and I decayed it. I drew lands and rebuilt with drs while he did nothing.
G3: 2 standstills and a deed later, im sitting with jtms and a manland going at it. he cant recover.
2-1

R2 Miracles Brendan
G1: t2 I caught his top when he fetches and opts to shuffle it away. t3 lily. One to terminus my lumbering falls(should be CTP) Lily ult him for fetch, cb and top. he keep 2 island and a plains. I play second lily on the same turn and he concedes.
G2:He resolves a blood moon and I just cant even. (now we know its a hole in the deck)
G3: He breaks 2 standstills, reluctantly. I land jtms and garruk relentless. He judgements jtms. I land lotv, he snaps back CJ. I play second lily, he concedes. "Too many planeswalkers." -Brendan
2-1

R3 Esperblade
G1: I t1 seize his brainstorm instead of his seize. he t2 sfm, I force. this game was vague.
G2: I t2 standstill and we play draw go for about 6-7 turns. he breaks with seize and I have 10 nonland cards. he takes brainstorm. I seize and go to planeswalker town after this weird dance with his Gideon, ally of Z. he dies in planeswalker town.
2-0

R4 Know n Tell (Pair down)
G1: He t2 show n tell, I force. He t3 show n tell, I die to emrakul off omniscience.
G2: t3 negate his show and tell, he has double force and im dead to release the ants.
0-2 (this is a bad matchup, we fixed the sideboard later)

R5 Esperdeathblade Andres
We ID to secure our credit.

The list:

4 DRS
1 V Clique

2 JTMS
2 Lotv
1 Garruk Relentless

4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 FoW
4 Standstill
4 Deed
3 Decay
1 Life from the loam
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Thoughtseize

1 island
1 swamp
4 verdant
4 delta
3 sea
2 bayou
1 trop
3 waste
2 factory
1 CTP
1 L Falls(need to get a CTP

SB
2 duress
2 surgical
2 nihil spellbomb
2 disfugre
2 negate
1 thrun
2 gurmag angler
1 golgari charm
1 Library

The deck felt super strong and I will be making changes to it going forward. I am very excited on how it felt in the meta as I anticipate playing all these decks at gp Columbus. Going up on jtms and lily seems right. im gonna try a snap and an innocent blood as well. New list when I get a chance.

Douif
05-02-2016, 05:12 PM
The deck seems really fun but why will you pick it over Shardless in a competitive field ? (It's an honest question, I really would like to have some reasons to test it). Obviously, Standstill is more control than Shardless, but the latter can already grind out the majority of the field while being a midrange deck.

Invasive Surgery could be good in the sideboard with the fact that standstill plays 7/8 enchantments + some walkers if you need others counterspells/extractions.

Ricardio
05-02-2016, 05:35 PM
The deck seems really fun but why will you pick it over Shardless in a competitive field ? (It's an honest question, I really would like to have some reasons to test it). Obviously, Standstill is more control than Shardless, but the latter can already grind out the majority of the field while being a midrange deck.

Invasive Surgery could be good in the sideboard with the fact that standstill plays 7/8 enchantments + some walkers if you need others counterspells/extractions.

The short answer is sleeper with a card many players don't know how to play against: standstill. When someone plays against me and they don't get to see standstill, they assume im either delver or shardless and that gives me an advantage because they are still trying to figure out what im doing. Miracles brought in RIP against me of which it affects 5 card (4 drs, 1 loam) When I seized and took a ponder over it, he took it out for game 3 of which I had 2 drs that did a lot of work. He asked if I played goyf and I told him, no and that rip isn't very god against me. Against dnt, I was cataclysmed and clawed back in to win it whereas I do not believe I could have done it if I was on shardless.
Shardless has a target on its head and the eldrazi menace has its number. I think cards like ancestral vision and shardless agent are fine cards but I am not a fan. I seem to be in the pursuit of playing bug without delver and shardless/vision so this is the next step I have taken. Nearly all the threats shardless plays gets swept up by my deeds. Same with other decks. In my relelntless journey to forge a deck that is blue and have strong game against my most hated decks, miracles and DnT, I decided to try this deck and the first outing was an overwhelming success. the deck was a ton of fun and winning makes it even better. I plan on taking some type of bug control to GP Columbus in june.

I have added a surgery, not sure whether 2 is necessary. I will post an updated list when I get a chance.

Vandalize
05-02-2016, 07:02 PM
Yeah, this deck is much more controlish than Shardless BUG, and Pernicious Deed is great. The only problem is that Burn is like a 10-90% matchup.

I've been playing around in MWS with the following list, and it seemd pretty good. I didn't test it a lot, tho.

Lands [24]
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Island
2 Mishra's Factory
2 Creeping Tar Pit

Creatures [4]
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique

Spells [32]
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Innocent Blood
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Counterspell
1 Life from the Loam
1 Maelstrom Pulse

Sideboard [15]
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Thoughtseize
3 Chill
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Invasive Surgery
1 Flusterstorm

Any suggestions? Maybe some Gurmag Anglers instead of Tarmogoyf?

ScottW
05-02-2016, 09:11 PM
Wow, multiple posts in one day in the UBG Landstill thread!

@Vandalize,
I like like your list overall as it has Loam / Waste. I'd try the full set of Mishra's Factory and go to just 1 Creeping Tar Pit as the etb tap is rather slow. I also don't think you need the basic Island. I like to run 25 lands in this as your 2+cmc cards are really high impact and making a land each turn is critical. I also don't think Hymn is good main deck, especially paired with 2 Counterpell as the UU / BB and finding G for AD mana is not always easy with 4 Wastelands and Factory / Tar Pit. You'll also find yourself with a lot of cards due to Standstill. I'd also cut a Pernicious Deed for a Toxic Deluge, which is great but slow. I've been considering a 4 color list with a small (2) Stoneforge / Batterskull package along with STPs, which solves the entire 1cmc removal issue we have with Disfigure VS. Innocent Blood (you also get W for side board cards like Meddling Mage, Cannonist, etc.). However, I shelved the deck when Dig was banned and have not played it since. Today, I'd add some Ponders as you get the occasional clunky draw you need to fix. I'm also somewhat attracted to the new "Gitrog Monster" as a finisher. With LftL + Liliana, this creature seems insane. However, you would need to include Deathrite, which I've never liked.

The only thing better than chaining Standstills is storming out Tendrils! I'd like to see a list with this as a finisher...

theBloody
05-03-2016, 05:23 AM
@Vandalize

Good points by ScottW. I would try to make your deck run smoother (in face of Wastelands, mana screw, ...) by:
1) decreasing number of spells that need two of same color to cast (Counterspell, Hymn to Tourach, ... ),
2) changing converted mana cost (cmc) distribution.

Your cmc distribution among cards are:
7 x 1 cmc (4 x Brainstorm, 3 x Innocent Blood),
13 x 2 cmc (4 x Standstill, 4 x Abrupt Decay, 2 x Counterspell, 2 x Hymn to Tourach, 1 x Life from the Loam),
12 x 3+ cmc (3 x Snapcaster Mage, 1 x Vendillion Clique, 3 x Pernicious Deed, 2 x Jace the Mind Sculptor, 2 x Liliana of the Veil, 1 x Maelstrom Pulse)

I'm currently on mtg hiatus, but my ideal cmc distribution was something like: 12 or more 1 cmc, about 10 2 cmc, 10 or less 3+ cmc. The idea is to be able to put fight early game and not have hand overflooded by mid/late game bombs.

Nastaboi
05-03-2016, 07:13 AM
@Vandalize
my ideal cmc distribution was something like: 12 or more 1 cmc, about 10 2 cmc, 10 or less 3+ cmc. The idea is to be able to put fight early game and not have hand overflooded by mid/late game bombs.

This I can get behind. We have so much CA that as long as we survive early game we are good. Unless we flood out, which has happened me too many times. That's why I added Ponder and it has been great.

I have been running two Flusterstorms in board but consider switching to Invasive Surgery. I think they are really close in power level and not sure which one is better. You can bring Surgery against Shardless or Entreat-heavy version of Miracles, so that's one thing to consider.

rubblekill
05-03-2016, 07:41 AM
I had no idea this was a deck with a thread, if only I had come here first. Thanks ScottW



I built Bugstill and ran it at my local sunday legacy. had around 20 people I think so 5 rounds.

R1 DNT Billy
G1: I get to t1 drs, t2 ponder, standstill. He plays out a bunch of threats and then a revoker naming deed. I lose.
G2: He had to defensively cataclysm but kept a port and I wasted it. then he drew a vial and I decayed it. I drew lands and rebuilt with drs while he did nothing.
G3: 2 standstills and a deed later, im sitting with jtms and a manland going at it. he cant recover.
2-1

R2 Miracles Brendan
G1: t2 I caught his top when he fetches and opts to shuffle it away. t3 lily. One to terminus my lumbering falls(should be CTP) Lily ult him for fetch, cb and top. he keep 2 island and a plains. I play second lily on the same turn and he concedes.
G2:He resolves a blood moon and I just cant even. (now we know its a hole in the deck)
G3: He breaks 2 standstills, reluctantly. I land jtms and garruk relentless. He judgements jtms. I land lotv, he snaps back CJ. I play second lily, he concedes. "Too many planeswalkers." -Brendan
2-1

R3 Esperblade
G1: I t1 seize his brainstorm instead of his seize. he t2 sfm, I force. this game was vague.
G2: I t2 standstill and we play draw go for about 6-7 turns. he breaks with seize and I have 10 nonland cards. he takes brainstorm. I seize and go to planeswalker town after this weird dance with his Gideon, ally of Z. he dies in planeswalker town.
2-0

R4 Know n Tell (Pair down)
G1: He t2 show n tell, I force. He t3 show n tell, I die to emrakul off omniscience.
G2: t3 negate his show and tell, he has double force and im dead to release the ants.
0-2 (this is a bad matchup, we fixed the sideboard later)

R5 Esperdeathblade Andres
We ID to secure our credit.

The list:

4 DRS
1 V Clique

2 JTMS
2 Lotv
1 Garruk Relentless

4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 FoW
4 Standstill
4 Deed
3 Decay
1 Life from the loam
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Thoughtseize

1 island
1 swamp
4 verdant
4 delta
3 sea
2 bayou
1 trop
3 waste
2 factory
1 CTP
1 L Falls(need to get a CTP

SB
2 duress
2 surgical
2 nihil spellbomb
2 disfugre
2 negate
1 thrun
2 gurmag angler
1 golgari charm
1 Library

The deck felt super strong and I will be making changes to it going forward. I am very excited on how it felt in the meta as I anticipate playing all these decks at gp Columbus. Going up on jtms and lily seems right. im gonna try a snap and an innocent blood as well. New list when I get a chance.

I wanna build this deck so bad because I love PW and Deed. I have an honest question though: isn't 4 DRS 4 Deed a nonbo?

H
05-03-2016, 08:30 AM
I wanna build this deck so bad because I love PW and Deed. I have an honest question though: isn't 4 DRS 4 Deed a nonbo?

It's been discussed at length earlier in the thread. Yes, while it sucks to kill you own DRS, the acceleration, life gain and utility gained generally outweighs the downside of sometimes killing your own creature.

I do think 4 Deed is too many though, I think 3 is more than enough. You could also build this with something like Innocent Blood rather than DRS, but in my opinion, DRS is just better.

Ricardio
05-03-2016, 09:32 AM
I wanna build this deck so bad because I love PW and Deed. I have an honest question though: isn't 4 DRS 4 Deed a nonbo?


It's been discussed at length earlier in the thread. Yes, while it sucks to kill you own DRS, the acceleration, life gain and utility gained generally outweighs the downside of sometimes killing your own creature.

I do think 4 Deed is too many though, I think 3 is more than enough. You could also build this with something like Innocent Blood rather than DRS, but in my opinion, DRS is just better.

I could see the deck with or without drs but from what ive seen, he helps the deck a ton and usually dies to your opp removal before you deed. The dream is t1 drs, t2 thoughtseize, standstill so you have a board and they have to do something about your drs.

I think 25 is way too many, 23 seems right. when I was playing bug control, the curve was a bit lower and I found 21 lands to be perfect. Also 4 factories is absurd, don't do that. if you run more than 5 colorless lands, you will have mana problems. Also, 3 basics is also dreamworld, I think like shardless Forest and Swamp is where we wanna be, especially with 2 CTP/3 waste/2 factory.

ScottW
05-03-2016, 10:16 AM
I could see the deck with or without drs but from what ive seen, he helps the deck a ton and usually dies to your opp removal before you deed. The dream is t1 drs, t2 thoughtseize, standstill so you have a board and they have to do something about your drs.

I think 25 is way too many, 23 seems right. when I was playing bug control, the curve was a bit lower and I found 21 lands to be perfect. Also 4 factories is absurd, don't do that. if you run more than 5 colorless lands, you will have mana problems. Also, 3 basics is also dreamworld, I think like shardless Forest and Swamp is where we wanna be, especially with 2 CTP/3 waste/2 factory.

Trying not to take this personally. Factory is awesome in this deck and sometimes you need the quick beats / chump blocks. Also, this is BUG "Landstill" not "mid-range Modern." (It takes a man to play land go.) 7-8 colorless is just fine as long as your requirements aren't outrageous and you have the appropriate distribution of fetch and color sources.

Another dreamworld is drawing Wastelands and Factories while having Standstill on board and in hand. In fact, this is more of a reality in the right build.

Ricardio
05-03-2016, 11:07 AM
Trying not to take this personally. Factory is awesome in this deck and sometimes you need the quick beats / chump blocks. Also, this is BUG "Landstill" not "mid-range Modern." (It takes a man to play land go.) 7-8 colorless is just fine as long as your requirements aren't outrageous and you have the appropriate distribution of fetch and color sources.

Another dreamworld is drawing Wastelands and Factories while having Standstill on board and in hand. In fact, this is more of a reality in the right build.

Don't take it personally, that's not what im trying to do. I understand how the deck plays and how you have yours built. I feel you are correct in the analysis that my list looks very midrange-y and I admit it is biased from my previous bug lists. Like I stated previously, I did not know this was a thread so it was built up from the bottom because my only basis for structure was PMs from Nastasboi. I feel bugstill is more personal than most decks from the standpoint that you can build it to your playstyle. I find myself flooding all too often so I went down on lands but I mitigate the lower land count with loam and a lower curve.

I feel like we got off on the wrong foot, I didn't mean to associate negative connotation with my initial post, just my thoughts verbatim. I hope we can make this deck great again.

ScottW
05-03-2016, 11:23 AM
Keep posting your thoughts Ricardio. I may have come off too strong and enjoy the discussion quite a bit. Thanks for giving some life to this thread.

cdnza
05-03-2016, 01:47 PM
Posts in the Landstill thread!? Can we resurrect this deck?!

Here's an idea. New win-con. Cunning Wish for Empty the Pits. Anyone else REALLY want to try this?

Ralf
05-03-2016, 02:32 PM
Posts in the Landstill thread!? Can we resurrect this deck?!

Here's an idea. New win-con. Cunning Wish for Empty the Pits. Anyone else REALLY want to try this?

Seems like we have a believer !

Ricardio
05-03-2016, 02:50 PM
Keep posting your thoughts Ricardio. I may have come off too strong and enjoy the discussion quite a bit. Thanks for giving some life to this thread.

Sounds good to me. This deck is very enjoyable and I love triggering JTMS and beating DnT/Miracles.


Posts in the Landstill thread!? Can we resurrect this deck?!

Here's an idea. New win-con. Cunning Wish for Empty the Pits. Anyone else REALLY want to try this?

I am not a fan of wish boards outside dedicated storm decks that have corresponding dedicated wish boards. Empty the pits is a favorite of mine but quad B is hampering to say the least but a good idea. I am not sure when that is at its best and if its a sb card we want to help us against what deck. What would you consider a lethal Empty(the pits)?? Thoughts, ScottW/thread?


Seems like we have a believer !

THERE GOES THE NEIGHBORHOOD! I hope you brought the party.

List:

4 drs

3 jtms
3 lotv
1 garruk relentless

4 ponder
4 bstorm
4 fow
4 standstill
4 deed
3 decay
1 loam
2 seize

2 CTP
2 Factory
4 verdant
4 delta
3 sea
2 bayou
1 trop
1 swamp
1 forest
3 wasteland

SB (work in progress)
3 duress
2 negate
1 invasive surgery
2 disfigure
2 surgical ext
2 nihil spellbomb
1 golgari charm
1 v clique
1 thrun

EDIT: Has anyone tried traverse the ulvenwald in legacy yet? Seems like a good deck to play it in. Whether we grab a DRS or CTP

H
05-05-2016, 03:53 PM
While I doubted it in my early time playing the deck, I think Nastaboi is right, the basics are more harmful than good to the manabase. We are already stretched, running Factories and Wastelands, and if you are playing 4 Ponder (which I am not so sure about), having a Swamp and a Forest is less than ideal. In reality, Wasteland is just good versus us and 2 Basics doesn't really fix that, in fact, every Wasteland that hits a dual is one less at a Factory or Tar Pit. If we fetch one Basic, then a Dual (because we will need Blue) Wasteland still cuts us off a color. Our deck is nearly totally dead to a Blood Moon and the two Basics could help that, but if you fetch up a Swamp and a Forest so you'll have a Decay mana, you can't cast your cantrips.

If it's working for you, than that is good, I am glad, but I think it might actually be holding you back some.

ScottW
05-05-2016, 05:24 PM
Forest, swamp, loam...

Ricardio
05-05-2016, 09:20 PM
I agree. Maybe only a swamp is necessary. I just felt absolutely helpless against blood moon. I can cut a forest for a wasteland or maybe the second trop. What about my other suggestions??

LarsLeif
05-06-2016, 03:04 AM
So nice to see this thread alive again. I haven't really touched the deck post DTT but still love it. :)

Some thoughts on basic lands:

While it is true that playing basics actually can limit your ability to cast your spells properly (either by getting a lone dual wasted or just fetching a forest or something and getting stuck with Counterspell in hand), basics has some other stuff going for them. Firstly, they allow you to play out your more expensive spells by chaining basics. For example, leading with Swamp + Removal into t2 Forest DRS/Decay allows your t3 play to be a 3cmc spell (even if your opponent started the game out with a wasteland). That is powerful. Also, basics allows you to not fold to a resolved Blood Moon/recursive wastelands etc, which is nice.

So regarding basics it comes down to if you want the lower mana quality but the strengthened quantity (number of mana sources available against wasteland decks) + Blood Moon resistance offered by basics, or the increased quality but decreased quantity + Blood Moon weakness offered by duals.

My point being that both approaches to the mana base have their merits, but also their cons.

H
05-06-2016, 06:50 AM
I agree. Maybe only a swamp is necessary. I just felt absolutely helpless against blood moon. I can cut a forest for a wasteland or maybe the second trop. What about my other suggestions??

I'm not sure about 4 Ponder. Or 4 Deeds. It's been years though, so I don't know if the meta warrants that at this point.

I'm also leery about going less than 4 Factories, as that was one of the best cards in the deck. The "trouble" I always had was how slow the deck was, which was why in later builds I added the Clique from the side into the main. Factory is also a great blocker, the number of times I caught people attacking into it, either bluffing or not realizing I could tap it to make itself a 3/3 was crazy. Not to mention a 4/4 if I had a second.

As for fighting Blood Moon, well, there really isn't much you can do. Either Force it, try to have Deed out, try to have Decay mana up if it looks like they have it, or run a couple BEBs (or Hydroblasts) in the board.

Nastaboi
05-06-2016, 06:59 AM
If you can afford both basics, you can fetch swamp-forest and be guaranteed to hit three mana before their wasteland becomes active. With just a swamp, it's not worth it as their later wastelands can keep you off color more easily. The problem with forest is that it's essentially a colorless land, and takes a slot from either factory/waste or from a spell.

One swamp gives you an out against Blood Moon, and swamp+forest makes you almost moonproof. So the question how many basics to run comes down to how much do you fear Blood Moon. For now, my respect on Moon equals one swamp, but I have run all combinations.

Traverse the Ulvenwald has no place in this deck. The deck has next to no basics and no creatures you'd like to search late game. Nic Fit style deck would be better suited for it, but even they are better off with just Green Sun's Zenith.

Garruk BTW got strictly better with new rules, as its flip side no longer dies to Abrupt Decay.

Ricardio
05-06-2016, 09:27 AM
If you can afford both basics, you can fetch swamp-forest and be guaranteed to hit three mana before their wasteland becomes active. With just a swamp, it's not worth it as their later wastelands can keep you off color more easily. The problem with forest is that it's essentially a colorless land, and takes a slot from either factory/waste or from a spell.

One swamp gives you an out against Blood Moon, and swamp+forest makes you almost moonproof. So the question how many basics to run comes down to how much do you fear Blood Moon. For now, my respect on Moon equals one swamp, but I have run all combinations.

Traverse the Ulvenwald has no place in this deck. The deck has next to no basics and no creatures you'd like to search late game. Nic Fit style deck would be better suited for it, but even they are better off with just Green Sun's Zenith.

Garruk BTW got strictly better with new rules, as its flip side no longer dies to Abrupt Decay.

So I will try 1 swamp in the mean time, what should I change the forest to?

Traverse was a suggestions, it can get CTP/waste when delirium is active.

Garruk was fine before and now he has to be bolted to die. its great.

Lzm
05-07-2016, 09:36 PM
hi everyone.
toying around for quite some time with pernicious jace on cocka, and i found that the deck, being in its snap or standstill version, is a pure blast to play, by far my favorite archetype, but unfortunately has serious flaws:

the printing of decay wich makes deed weaker

the printing of angler, the new eldrazies and the ajustement of the meta wich not favored the deed/decay duo in a shell without tarmo/ big black delve dude (even if a higher amount of counterspell/edict effects can mitigate the problem)

the mentor/pyro/smasher that weakens liliana and jace if deed is not on the table

the vulnerability to reach if you don t play drs (wich imho, does t belong in this deck)

and more at its core, being a pure reactive deck without clock or lock/inevitablity ( jace is not as strong as he uses to be when the deck was dominant) in a format with such a high level of cards/strategies and angle of attacks). in a word: outdated

Therefore, i tried a different and more proactive take on bug non cascade control
here s my latest version ( after 2 weeks of adjustment). As said before in this thread, garruk benefits of the new rule about flipped cards ( doesn t fall to decay anymore when flipped), but ALSO of the creatures that had been printed since innistrad and after the printing of decay. i consider him as one of the most powerful card in the deck: a ca engine, a removal, a board stall mechanic ( specially when flipped) a fantastic tutor, and sometime a finisher... And as i have to admit one of the main reasons that push me to build this deck in combination with the duo strix/TNN in a bug pw shell)

MD: 60
creature: 15
4 true name nemesis
4 deathrite shaman
4 baleful strix
2 ventilions clique
1 snapcaster mage

instant: 13
4 abrupt decay
4 force of will
4 brainstorm
1 dimir charm

sorcery: 6
3 seize
2 ponder
1 maelstrom pulse

PW: 4
2 garruk relentless
2 jace the mind sculptor

land: 22
2 creeping tarpit
4 u sea
4 trop
1 bayou
1 dust bowl
4 delta
3 misty
3 verdant

SB:
2 needle
1 jitte
1 darkblast
2 disfigure
1 dismember
1 minister of pain
3 flusterstorm
3 surgical extraction
1 seize

since it s my first post on the forum ( and that i start felling a bit lazy :) ), i won t wright a sudo primer of a deck that stays at its core, a bug pw controlish deck, but feel free to ask questions about some choices/slots/absent cards, interactions, MU, gameplans wich varies a lot in function of the MU ( which makes this list it a little bit more midrangy than the others posted on this thread. This, and the difficulty to side properly against him to be nice with myself and only mention the bright sides), or to criticized / propose improvements ( except criticized dimir charm or suggest liliana or null rod :) ).
I ll just gonna say one thing: due to its unusual vulnerability to -1/-1 effects for a control decks, i strongly suggest not to side out to much permission (fow, clique, seize, charm) if you re playing vs deck susceptible to play them in their sb. flash creatures are also important to protect tnn from edict effect ( even considered dryad arbor in sb).

PS: a bit surprise not seing more snares in you re pure control list; the card is outstanding right now and maybe the one you re the more often happy to see when you lose the die roll :) in addition to stay very relevant in the mid late game

grim confident
05-07-2016, 10:23 PM
life from the loam and wasteland are good choose for your deck.And maybe you need 1-2 damnation in your maindeck or sideboard.
But ,infect,I don't think your deck is better than shardless bug or miracle.

Nastaboi
05-08-2016, 04:21 AM
hi everyone.
PS: a bit surprise not seing more snares in you re pure control list; the card is outstanding right now and maybe the one you re the more often happy to see when you lose the die roll :) in addition to stay very relevant in the mid late game

I cut Snares when Show and Tell became deck to beat and the card was total blank against it. Now that the deck has became relatively rare, I could see Snare sneaking back to my list. Has to test it.

Personally I feel TNN is just too low impact on 3 mana, and you really need to play equipment alongside it to justify its inclusion.

Lzm
05-08-2016, 08:00 AM
I cut Snares when Show and Tell became deck to beat and the card was total blank against it. Now that the deck has became relatively rare, I could see Snare sneaking back to my list. Has to test it.

Personally I feel TNN is just too low impact on 3 mana, and you really need to play equipment alongside it to justify its inclusion.

snare have indeed a lot of target and some you really wanna it in what i consider to be the dtb right now: stone forge THALIA REVOKER tarmo TOURACH counterbalance predict (which seems to be the new black in miracle) SNAP chalice THORN mimic , YOUNG PYRO, infect agent storm tutors. A 2 or 3 auto include right now IMHO, specialy if you play snap.

Concerning nemesis, i use to share you re opinion, my first list had 2 jittes in it and i still have one in my sb cuz it can be devastating/gamebreaking/life saving, but it appears that the card could be out of tempo, overkill in many situations and that it was another card you didn t want in you re opening hand (The deck only plays 21 colored land and a dust bowl, thx to strix deathrite and cantrip). i realize that vey often vs creature mu, the deck only want to stabilize or stall the board, control the pw or powerful opposing spells with the permission it has, grind them with the actual CA it generates via strip, pW and pulse or the virtual one generates via nemesis, then and a) race them with nemesis, tarpit drs clique B) stall via nemesis/ strix/ wolves token and win via PW or drs/nemesis/tarpit.
the main issues it can face vs aggro/midrange are_and my sb speaks for itself in that regard_ : an active mom in certain situation, a pyro a mentor or a bob left uncheck to long (like any other non sweeper deck you will say) and shardless wich i feel is the only problematic MU right now ( not unwindable at all but clearly unfavorable since they can tempo you out, win the CA war and plays lili tarpit and deluge). land may looks awful but you can still win G1 by knowing the mu, countering decaying the good stuffs, tempo them out with drs fast nemesis, and got a solid sb plan against it; since it s non a blue combo/synergy deck with the variance and fragility it implies, a single hate card or a proper interaction can be back breaking for it )
MORE GENERALLY ABOUT NEMESIS
after a lot of testing, i start to feel that this card is underrated because: 1)it as been overhype and miss used at its release,2) it is a 3CC non flash creature without cip effect or a Ca mechanic (even if i consider that if you have it in play and your opponent has a dismember and a bolt in hand and a 2 pyro tokens, you generate a virtual CA like chalice does) 3) people hates the card, and i can t blame them for that, since a 3 mana progenitus is just dumb and unfun.


PS: to confident: damnation doens t seem to be the card you desperately want with 15 creatures (including 4 nemesis) and 2 garruk in you re deck :wink:

Tom4ik
05-09-2016, 09:22 AM
@Lzm - Without a sweeper maindeck you absolutely need a jitte main. Decay/Pulse are great but without access to deluge or deed you will far behind and even things like Tnn. I have been playing a deck pretty similar to your list though. I have 2 Tnn/2 Strix and then 4 added goyfs as they pressure a lot better. I run a jitte main and then have a deluge and a deed in the sideboard for things like Dnt.

I think this style of deck (Bug Control) would be better served as a tap out control deck with Ptruths as the draw 3 vs standstill. Bug doesnt have a 1 mana kill spell like a UWr deck would have with swords and bolt. I dont even think standstill is that great even with those cards so I like it a lot less here. Truths is a draw 3 that is harder to turn off in the matchups that you want more CA in.

Ricardio
05-09-2016, 10:03 AM
hi everyone.
toying around for quite some time with pernicious jace on cocka, and i found that the deck, being in its snap or standstill version, is a pure blast to play, by far my favorite archetype, but unfortunately has serious flaws:

the printing of decay wich makes deed weaker

the printing of angler, the new eldrazies and the ajustement of the meta wich not favored the deed/decay duo in a shell without tarmo/ big black delve dude (even if a higher amount of counterspell/edict effects can mitigate the problem)

the mentor/pyro/smasher that weakens liliana and jace if deed is not on the table

the vulnerability to reach if you don t play drs (wich imho, does t belong in this deck)

and more at its core, being a pure reactive deck without clock or lock/inevitablity ( jace is not as strong as he uses to be when the deck was dominant) in a format with such a high level of cards/strategies and angle of attacks). in a word: outdated


since it s my first post on the forum ( and that i start felling a bit lazy :) ), i won t wright a sudo primer of a deck that stays at its core, a bug pw controlish deck

Quite a few ideas I take to mean you don't understand:

Decay can hit deed but the printing of decay doesn't make deed lose velocity. They are great in conjunction with one another.

I haven't played this deck against eldrazi and I imagine the matchup isn't stellar but I do not have problems with delve creatures. Lily and jace have text.

Saying a deck is weak to a few cards if it doesn't have one of the cards it plays 4 of is hardly a constructive argument.

Reach is not an issue. CTP and PW are more than enough to close out a game. DRS is incredible and I would like to know why you think it shouldn't be in the deck.

The deck is not outdated at all, if anything, its ready for a comeback now that standstill is only a memory and the format has slowed down.

Your list is just Team America control, its a deck I played for a while and there is whole thread for it so you writing a primer would be like me drafting a declaration of independence. Playing no wastelands is wrong as well as 4 strix/4 tnn and no equipment. No goyfs in a midrange creature deck is loose as well.


I cut Snares when Show and Tell became deck to beat and the card was total blank against it. Now that the deck has became relatively rare, I could see Snare sneaking back to my list. Has to test it.

Personally I feel TNN is just too low impact on 3 mana, and you really need to play equipment alongside it to justify its inclusion.

I agree with all this.

Lzm
05-09-2016, 05:14 PM
Quite a few ideas I take to mean you don't understand:

Decay can hit deed but the printing of decay doesn't make deed lose velocity. They are great in conjunction with one another.



[QUOTE=Ricardio;948474]Quite a few ideas I take to mean you don't understand:

Decay can hit deed but the printing of decay doesn't make deed lose velocity. They are great in conjunction with one another.

I haven't played this deck against eldrazi and I imagine the matchup isn't stellar but I do not have problems with delve creatures. Lily and jace have text.

Saying a deck is weak to a few cards if it doesn't have one of the cards it plays 4 of is hardly a constructive argument.

Reach is not an issue. CTP and PW are more than enough to close out a game. DRS is incredible and I would like to know why you think it shouldn't be in the deck.

The deck is not outdated at all, if anything, its ready for a comeback now that standstill is only a memory and the format has slowed down.

Your list is just Team America control, its a deck I played for a while and there is whole thread for it so you writing a primer would be like me drafting a declaration of independence. Playing no wastelands is wrong as well as 4 strix/4 tnn and no equipment. No goyfs in a midrange creature deck is loose as well.



I agree with all this.




Well well well :)...
adopting a superiore tone and assuming i am a legacy noob who write his first post and think he re-invented the wheel is quite unpleasant, but if you do so, try to present more accurate points :)

1) saying that decay hasn t weakened pernicious deed ( one of my favorite mtg card btw, pernicious jace had been my pet deck for years) in some ways, is pure deny or blindness: before ( lets say when misstep was legal and the deck was dtb) you can cast you re deed, sit on it, and crack it in the chosen tempo ( at least pre side). Now, vs bug, there are a lot of situation were deed is turned in an expensive catch all except PW wrath, which is still pretty good, but obviously less powerful.

2) Bye saying that decay and deed works perfectly well together you mean that you both want to draw one of those card in early mid game if an angler, a smasher/seer, or prime titan is facing you on the opposite board :)? or a jace? or a show and tell/ infernal tutor on the pile :). sorry for the last dubious exemple but what i mean is that deed purpose is to destroy a lot of reasonebale ccm non PW permanent, and decay, to catch a single 3 ccm non land permanent without being countered. coherent yes, being part of the same strategy, yes again, but compensate each other limit, not exactly. fow/seize/lili or even vindicate does that with deed (and some happen to be played in deed deck :) ).

3) concerning eldrazi and the few cards i mentioned to back up my argumentation: 4 seer 4 smasher 4 thorn 4 calices 4 cavern of soul 2 end bringer 3 eyes of gin waste or manland, sometimes revoker explosive/uncounterable starts: not stellar at all.

4) by saying that everything is ok because jace and lili have text you mean that you re opponent doesn t play legacy like you with lots of powerful cards you had to handle before or endure and let you play as you wish. and that you ll always have the few card/combination of card to answer the decks clear issues. theory mtg is great but weeks of testing with the deck on cocka with various, various versions also has its own merit :). And it s not like the deck play that much cantrips and that few lands :). usual bias of control or combo player who doesn t test enough :). By not mentioning i said that a higher amount of counterspies edict effect could mitigate this problem you were dishonest anyway.

5) im not talking about cards but about meta MU game plan and general flaws of the deck in this meta, and more generally, and in nowadays legacy, you want to ignore: a pure reactive deck without a combo/ oops i win/ lock plan in a format with vey powerful strategies that attack on very different angle and can win in a single breach... And with a main plan ( jace deed) that is not as nearly powerful as it used to be_ that i may have exemplified with cards. And when i m talking about pyro/mentor who have deck build around them, or the legion of high casting cost creatures hasty trampler sudo hemxproof who eats pW for breakfast or decay proof clique that may never make you draw a card of a new dtb (smashers/seers) or angler wich sees more and more play in yp deck, which force you to draw your answers in the good order, i m not mentionnings random one of of obscures decks. you re as ridiculous as someone denying that delver by it self has t define legacy for years.

6) doens t like drs AND liliana in this deck for few reasons. This particular question as the merit to be pertinent and i might be wrong: drs is not synergistic with deed, and in a light creature deck will often rentabilize opponent removal without having accomplish a thing ( dies to everything except reb, no CIP effect) good if it attract a decay not terrible if its a bolt or a -2 lili, way worse if it is a plow/warping wail/ punishing fire/disfigure and takes slots that can be permission which can handle big things PW key spells and not being a complete by for combo ( by the way, combo was kept in check by misstep and barely event t exist at the notable exception of hive mind wich and some NO midrangy builds with were good MU if you could handle that single card when the deck was dtb). good turn one for turn 2 standstill ok :).
doesn t like liliana in bug control outside of standstill loam version were you have the luxury of minus one constantly ( not keen on discarding snare snap decay counterspell or jace to see my opponent discard a daze or a stp) and i don t find her that exciting in the actual meta except vs combo and miracle ( and tried her a lot). but she teams well with deed, i must give you that.

7) i m aware of the existence of team america, which is a tempo deck with delver, tarmo, waste daze, stifle/tourach/pierce/cabal in opposition to my deck who want to control/stall the board, has non conditional/ non tempo permission cards ( i m playing controlly seizes, not tempo oriented touch) to have my word on opponent s hand, gy and the pile, and grind them, slowly race with dumb uninteractive/ unblockable/pinging/flying creatures/man land or win via PW. My post may had not pleases you but please... 4 strix 1 snap 2 clique 2 tarpit 1 pulse 1 dimir charm, 2 garruk ( that you are clearly under using in your list... not even snap to chain...) 2 jace 22 landed no waste is so typical of team america... come on ... i m just a player of bug non cascade control who loves the deck, is pragmatic enough to aknowledge that in it s actual form his doomed to be tier 2 at best and tries to propose a different more proactive angle after a lot of test with various list: standstill/loam, loamless, standstill thing in the ice/ snap version, versions with lili and without, with lots of counter and snare, with more discard, removal, with various number of snap (o to 3/clique (o to 2), and strix (0 to 2 ) and pw. my list may not be optimal and that s why i posted it here hopping people would react more intelligently as you are, but please, continue to discuss few slots and not experiment anything as if the de deck was a real deal in todays meta, that all the spotlights were on him and that this forum was the more active with the more reports of great result, and not a pet deck forum for nostalgics. i m not saying that the meta or some new print will not change things or that my list will break the format, but right now, i think that the pure reactive pw deed plan is doomed to be absent of the high tables. BUT I MIGHT BE WRONG

8) for jitte, you re right. it s heartbreaking not having one main with 4 tnn 4 strix and 2 garruk ( and i may change my mind and switch with charm) but my numerous games ( NUMEROUS games) incline me no tt wanting 2 in my MD as i think i would at the beginning ( not the right meta). BUT I MIGHT BE WRONG :) ( you should trie these words)

As for standstill, not to mention the deck that doesn t care that much of it ( if you don t already have a solid clock or a strong disruptive element, which could be an argument for drs by the way :)), the tempo is so violent in today s legacy that the list which had results as far as i know are the red based ones ( with bolt AND sudden shock). But as the format seems to slow down a bit, it may change. believe more in the bug snap version that can handle drs. BUT I MIGHT BE WRONG

peace:wink:
edit: sorry on one point: i looked for a bug control forum in the source and this one is the only one i found ( miss the control after the team america).gonna look for it. As i say in my previous post, and that you trie to ignore fore dubious reasons, i never claimed to re invente the wheel, my mention of a primer was ironic, because my post was already quite long even if i had a lot more to say, and that i was talking about a bug control list with drs decay bs fow jace (even if i never witness forum discussions, articles or even deck list who acknowledge the new whole potential of garruk in bug control. but it may comes, in a way better list than mine :).

sorry for the approximative english

Ricardio
05-09-2016, 05:54 PM
Forgive my aggression. What you did was say you enjoyed the deck, said the deck is outdated, ripped out the core of the deck and said here is BUG control.
None of what you discussed added to BUGstill or how to adapt the deck, just its dead and this is what im doing now. that's like me going to the ANT thread: saying I enjoy the deck, say its outdated, shred the deck and say here is TES, its better.

The BUG control thread is here http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23429-Deck-Team-America-(Midrange-Control-Thread)&p=947489#post947489

Lzm
05-09-2016, 06:07 PM
Forgive my aggression. What you did was say you enjoyed the deck, said the deck is outdated, ripped out the core of the deck and said here is BUG control.
None of what you discussed added to BUGstill or how to adapt the deck, just its dead and this is what im doing now. that's like me going to the ANT thread: saying I enjoy the deck, say its outdated, shred the deck and say here is TES, its better.

The BUG control thread is here http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23429-Deck-Team-America-(Midrange-Control-Thread)&p=947489#post947489

Found my home :).
THX

Ricardio
05-10-2016, 09:25 AM
I am planning on playing in a legacy tourney tonight. I want to try out empty the pits. Does anyone have experience with it?

Oh wow what a twist!! http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/413169#paper

ScottW
05-10-2016, 10:22 AM
I am planning on playing in a legacy tourney tonight. I want to try out empty the pits. Does anyone have experience with it?

Oh wow what a twist!! http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/413169#paper

I played it to my opponent's amusement. Good finisher but BBBB was problematic. Also, I had it in the SB as another finisher so it felt weak because some opponents would attack my graveyard to neuter LftL.

Quite a few wild BUG brews here. Tasiguar?

Report what you settle on and how it goes. Also, dare you to try WBUG Landstill with 4 StP and Stoneforge. I'd be happy to PM my list.

Ricardio
05-10-2016, 11:23 AM
I will definitely post my results and list but I dare not venture into 4 color blade territory. I am not man enough yet. haha

I agree that empty might get caught by random gy hate, I really wanna try it though so I may force a 1 of tonight. haven't played at this place yet so no idea of the meta.

Megadeus
05-10-2016, 11:48 AM
I played it to my opponent's amusement. Good finisher but BBBB was problematic. Also, I had it in the SB as another finisher so it felt weak because some opponents would attack my graveyard to neuter LftL.

Quite a few wild BUG brews here. Tasiguar?

Report what you settle on and how it goes. Also, dare you to try WBUG Landstill with 4 StP and Stoneforge. I'd be happy to PM my list.

Dropping a 1 mana 4/5 or 5/5 into a standstill in the same turn seems sick

btm10
05-10-2016, 12:21 PM
Dropping a 1 mana 4/5 or 5/5 into a standstill in the same turn seems sick

It's quite strong, but from my experience playing Delve guys in Grixis Landstill during the Dig era and in Shardless now, Tombstalker is almost always where you want to be. Grixis Delver runs Angler because BB is a giant pain for that deck to produce off of just 2 Seas and it's more pinched for mana in general than Landstill will be. An extra B is a small price to pay for Flying and not getting Karakas'ed.

Ricardio
05-10-2016, 12:40 PM
It's quite strong, but from my experience playing Delve guys in Grixis Landstill during the Dig era and in Shardless now, Tombstalker is almost always where you want to be. Grixis Delver runs Angler because BB is a giant pain for that deck to produce off of just 2 Seas and it's more pinched for mana in general than Landstill will be. An extra B is a small price to pay for Flying and not getting Karakas'ed.

that's perfect, I have 2 foil tombstalker :D Definitely jamming 2 tonight, probably cutting snapcaster.

Ralf
05-10-2016, 01:08 PM
I am planning on playing in a legacy tourney tonight. I want to try out empty the pits. Does anyone have experience with it?

Oh wow what a twist!! http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/413169#paper

I should be one of the most experienced player with Empty the Pits.

Just check my signature.

- Infernal Shadow
- Walker Fit
- BUG wish Fit

That's 3 decks, different builds, playing "Empty the pits".

Ricardio
05-10-2016, 03:20 PM
I should be one of the most experienced player with Empty the Pits.

Just check my signature.

- Infernal Shadow
- Walker Fit
- BUG wish Fit

That's 3 decks, different builds, playing "Empty the pits".

I will admit, the list ive been playing has drawn some ideas from you Ralf, the legend.

List wont change much since previous list. I will try tombstalker somewhere and see how that goes. definitely 1, probably 2. Wide open meta frightens me but hopefully I can just run through everything :D

Tom4ik
05-11-2016, 08:41 AM
I have been wondering. If BugStill is running loam it might be worth it to play a few moxes. Access to 2 mana turn 1 on the play so that you can drop standstill would be a really powerful opening. It also lets you play decay/CS on turn 1. I know they are bad top decks but the deck plays BS and Jace plus usually some amount of snaps and maybe even Lily to help find outlets for late drawn moxen.

During the Dig era when I played a generic bug midrange deck I found that Tombstalker was better than Tasigur (not sure about angler). Flying is a big deal. Not only does it help win races combined with tar pits but being able to block delvers or things out of DnT is a big get. The double black wouldnt be a big deal here. The upside to Tasigur just isnt worth it in legacy as 4/5 will a lot of times be smaller than late goyfs and the activation rarely came up though it did more than I thought.

Nastaboi
05-11-2016, 12:25 PM
I have been wondering. If BugStill is running loam it might be worth it to play a few moxes. Access to 2 mana turn 1 on the play so that you can drop standstill would be a really powerful opening. It also lets you play decay/CS on turn 1. I know they are bad top decks but the deck plays BS and Jace plus usually some amount of snaps and maybe even Lily to help find outlets for late drawn moxen.

You really can't play Deed if you play moxen, and Deed is one of the main draws to the deck.

I also tested Tasigur a while ago and found it lacking. Other delve creatures are just better, and Tarmogoyf is better than them. If I were to play one delve spell, it would be Murderous Cut.

Ricardio
05-11-2016, 01:04 PM
So I played last night. went 2-2

2-0 Lands (guy is really new to the deck and made some questionable plays that I capitalized on, tombstalker is a house, 4 turn clock)

2-1 Infect (this seems like a really good much up for us)

1-2 Rug Delver (G2/G3 I didn't draw more than 3 lands and that wont win you the game. G1 I drew plenty and it was GREAT!)

0-2 Grixis Delver (G1 he has drs into yp and 3 bolts backed up by 2 dazes and 2 forces. G2 he has t3 gurmag and that card isn't easy to beat, had fow for lily)

Standstill seemed awkward all night and I am back to the drawing board with BUG control. Deed was amazing and so was Tombstalker.
I don't think delver is as bad a matchup as it went but its definitely a hole in the armor.
I made some meta changes in the sb bc it was only 10 people and I saw all the decks

2 strix
2 surgical
2 nihil sb
2 duress
1 golgari charm
1 wasteland (4th)
1 v clique
2 disfigure
1 s library
1 I cant remember

Not sure where to go from here, likely BUG Vet control or something. Haven't decided whether to play goyfs or deeds next.

Tom4ik
05-11-2016, 04:08 PM
You really can't play Deed if you play moxen, and Deed is one of the main draws to the deck.

I also tested Tasigur a while ago and found it lacking. Other delve creatures are just better, and Tarmogoyf is better than them. If I were to play one delve spell, it would be Murderous Cut.

The reason I mentioned moxen was because I do not believe that any deck outside of veteran explorer decks really need deed. This deck doesnt have mana accel and is already weak to fast decks. I dont think looking at dropping deed for other answers is entirely unreasonable but then again I am not sure that standstill is still a draw engine to use for control decks. so take my suggestion for what thats worth.

Ricardio
05-11-2016, 05:06 PM
The reason I mentioned moxen was because I do not believe that any deck outside of veteran explorer decks really need deed. This deck doesnt have mana accel and is already weak to fast decks. I dont think looking at dropping deed for other answers is entirely unreasonable but then again I am not sure that standstill is still a draw engine to use for control decks. so take my suggestion for what thats worth.

YOUR BACK! I need guidance on BUG control stuff, im at an impasse.

ScottW
05-11-2016, 05:53 PM
How did you lose to Delver? Sub optimal plays, bad draws? I'd tune the list and get in some reps.

Also, what replaces Deed. I can't think of anything. You can diversify your sweepers but I think 1-2 is correct. Other options: Toxic Deluge (life costs...), Golgari Charm, Engineered Explosives. What else?

Ricardio
05-11-2016, 05:55 PM
How did you lose to Delver? Sub optimal plays, bad draws? I'd tune the list and get in some reps.

Obviously I am awful, but seriously, seemed like sub-optimal draws on my part as well as some loose decisions. I will revisit my list and go from there.

Most updated bugstill list would be amazeballs.

Nastaboi
05-12-2016, 02:28 AM
How did you lose to Delver?

Multiple wastelands, one or two well-timed counters. No deck has a great matchup against Delver decks as they can always get you like that. Our current removal suite isn't well equipped to deal with Angler. Right now we have Jace bounce, Lily edict and bigger Tarmogoyf from SB, and sacrifice effects are quite unreliable against Grixis Delver. Murderous Cut and Dismember is what I'd play if I didn't want to lose to Angler no more.

Though we seem to be well equipped against Infect, don't get too comfortable. It's a scary deck and can win from out of nowhere, and we can't really use Standstill.

ScottW
05-12-2016, 03:22 PM
Exactly, bad draws and suboptimal plays. I've made my share of rather humiliating misplays.

Nastaboi
05-21-2016, 02:03 PM
I have done some testing and tried some ideas. I tried Snare but it felt not quite powerful enough. As with Ponders I don't have to play them just to boost my blue card count, I decided to leave them for now. Then I thought about MD Hymn to Tourach to get even more card advantage. It's likely as good or even better than Thoughtseize against critical mass combo decks like ANT/Infect/Elves/Burn though obviously worse against Reanimator. More difficult to cast with colored mana is a thing and curve considerations might suggest running Seize, but I feel Seize isn't where I like to be right now. Might still play a couple on side.

Loam has felt quite underwhelming against Delver as when they cut your mana with Wastelands and you are forced to spend whole turn Loaming back some lands, you are often too far behind in tempo to recover even if you had all the answers in hand. An extra land in SB could be better in the match up, and having a forest along with a swamp does give additional insurance against Blood Moon. Where Loam shines is when you want to be actively Wastelanding and/or they attack your mana but their clock is slower: Infect, DNT, Lands, 4c Loam, Shardless.

Speaking of Lands, do you think I could get away with just one Surgical now that I have two Invasive Surgeries in side? I'd also like to have a couple of Diabolic Edicts against Marit Lage, but they are worse than other alternatives in most matchups where you want to bring in extra removal.

Oh, removal. Decays and Deeds are given and I like some Disfigure main for curve reasons, and it's the best card against Delver. But then. One Murderous Cut is likely great. Edict as I mentioned is ok against Eldrazi and works against Lands/Reanimator/Sneak, but is inferior to other options in traditional creature matchups. Dismember is worse than other spot removal, I'd rather have more Decays or Disfigures. I tried Strix but it felt worse than traditional removal. Golgari Charm is very very good in certain match ups (Elves, Infect, DNT) but worthless elsewhere except killing enchantments against SNT decks. Night of Soul's Betrayal straight out wins same matchups - if you ever get to the point of resolving it. Toxic Deluge and 4th Deed are a bit worse than Charm in those matchups but more useful in general.

The list ATM:

8 fetch
6 dual
1 swamp
2 factory
2 tar pit
3 waste

4 shaman
4 bs
4 ponder
2 disfigure

4 standstill
3 hymn
3 decay

3 lily
3 deed
1 clique

3 jace
4 force

SB:
4 goyf
1 clique
2 Invasive Surgery
2 seize
1 surgical
1 loam/forest
4 removal

All input welcome!

Nastaboi
05-30-2016, 06:00 AM
Played in GPT to get some testing. Lost to BUG Delver and tentacle monsters, won against Miracles, TES and Necrotic Ooze combo. Played this list to test some cards:

4 delta
4 catacombs
3 sea
2 trop
1 bayou
1 swamp
2 factory
2 tar pit
3 waste

4 shaman
4 bs
4 ponder
2 disfigure

4 standstill
2 hymn
1 Baleful Stix
3 decay

3 lily
2 deed
1 Toxic Deluge
1 clique

3 jace
4 force

SB:
4 goyf
1 clique
2 Invasive Surgery
1 surgical
1 loam
1 Golgari Charm
1 Murderous Cut
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 seize

I liked the list for most part. Mana base is as good as you can make it without cutting more spells for lands. Loam will start on SB. I liked Deed/Deluge split and will go with it. Playing less Deeds makes permanent-based SB cards better, and I like both Rod and Needle (Cage not so much). Strix slot in main is open, I could play 3rd Hymn as the card was good, but might play one Snare instead for curve and mana reasons. I think you need some synergies to really want Stix, like Therapy or Tezzeret or like. The last Seize on board could be something else, probably Clique. I like it to be something against combo and Seize and Clique are most usable overall, but it might be something more specific. Two weeks to GP!

LarsLeif
05-30-2016, 01:52 PM
I believe that your list is pretty good Nastaboi, I have little input to give. I do however, have an entirely different list to present! :) This is going to be one of my very long posts, so enjoy!

First some thoughts (and this will sound pretty abrasive but I mostly present these lines of thought as a way to explore different ideologies for the BUG landstill archetype): I have since a long time felt that the old type of BUG Landstill deck has lost much of its appeal. Partly due to that people play too durdly lists, but also because the meta-game is much faster now and playing a lot of expensive sweepers and planeswalkers just isn't that appealing as it was way back when Maverick was DtB or during the DTT-era.

I also feel that there has been a slight derailing in the use of standstill in our decks. People seem to have forgotten a bit what the card does well. Basically it comes down to three things:

1. Standstill is (only) good when the board is neutral (because manlands) or when we are ahead.
2. Standstill is good because it lets you play efficient cards that trades 1-for-1 and lets you pull ahead in CA (just like Ancestral Vision).
3. Standstill is good along with counterspells/reactive cards (because you can draw into answers with their threats on the stack).

Looking at the lists being posted here I see a heap of very expensive, slow cards that sort of makes me wonder what standstill even does in the deck. If your deck is full of expensive sweepers and removal you will never achieve a neutral board-state unless you actually resolve one of them. In other words, until you resolve your big things, Standstill is useless. And if you are in a position to start resolving deeds, lilianas, deluges and jaces, what exactly do you need standstill to do? You are most likely winning anyway. Those kind of decks should probably just pick up Shardless agent and visions as well and just drop the Standstills, even though the card is sweet as honey.

So, with this being in my mind, I have attempted to construct a list that plays the most efficient 1-for-1 cards available, gets ahead on board easily and is mainly reactive. I have tested it to some degree (about 25-30 games, which ofc isn't enough) to say that it is really fun to play, and potentially quite strong/even vs most decks. It might suffer from the Stoneblade-disease (having no truly bad matchups but no good ones either), but I think it is better than that.

The list (card choices are explained below):

CREATURES (9)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Vendilion Clique

ENCHANTMENTS (5)
4 Standstill
1 Sylvan Library

SORCERIES (1)
1 Life from the Loam

INSTANTS (20)
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Disfigure
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
1 Counterspell

PLANESWALKERS (2)
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

LANDS (23)
4 Mishra’s Factory
3 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest

SIDEBOARD (15)
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Volcanic Island
1 Disfigure
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Wasteland
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger’s Cage


Some of the choices are fairly self-explanatory so I won't go into those, but quickly for the ones who are not:

Main deck:

1 Vendilion Clique - There as a disruptive creature/threat number 13. Very good against both control/combo and also allows for a lot of shenanigans with standstill (like EoT Clique, untap and slam standstill). Also very relevant vs Miracle.dec in general and Miracle cards specifically. Needs little explanation.

1 Library - If you are playing legacy and playing 4 goyfs and 4 DRS and miracles is as common as it is, your list should always have a MD library. That has been my philosophy for a long time and still is. Very good interaction with standstill as well as you get to make land-drops more easily.

1 Life from the Loam - The deck plays the full set of Mishras and 3+1 Wasteland, so MD loam is mandatory I think. Can also be used to get back some fetches which you can BS away for value.

3 Disfigure - This card is what makes the deck work. Being able to trade 1 mana for their 1-drop is sooo crucial in a deck that wants to get a quick standstill out and those effective 1-for-1 trades are really key. Very good against most troublesome creatures and being able to maindeck 3 is what makes the deck able to not include expensive sweepers MD. I prefer these over Cut because not being able to kill Mom/Delver/DRS turn 1 is very bad. Prefer it over dismember because the life-loss matters when we play Sylvan MD and Deluge + Seizes post board. In the matchups where disfig is good you usually want the full 4 so there is one more in SB.

2 Snare, 2 Pierce, 1 CS - This counter suite has been good for me. Snare is a very efficient 1-for-1 counter that also trades up in mana. Very good against Miracles, Storm and Shardless with Hymns/Strixes. Pierce is the worst card in the deck but a necessary evil game 1 against combo. Also being able to stop t1 Top/Vial is good. 1 CS because you need it against miracles. Would like a second CS, but Clique takes that slot for the time being.

2 Jace - Because he is good, but not always great. Drawing multiples is very awkward. 2 is perfect for shardless and also in this deck.

4 Factory / 0 Tar Pit - This deck wants to make land drops that allows early plays, and we just cant accept to be slowed down by our lands. Mishra's are also more mana-effecient and very good vs pyromancers/elves/D&T. Tar pit is only good in very slow decks, if at all.

3 Wasteland - A necessary evil, but also good in conjunction with DRS + Goyf. Makes the deck have more punishing draws against decks that stumble on mana. The 4th is in the board for matchups where you really want 4 (Lands, Aggro Loam, Infect).

9 Fetches / 4 Duals / 3 Basics - The fetchlands are customized to be able to find Volcanic island/Trop/Sea. The basics are another discussion - basically, blood moon is common in Stockholm and my EV with basics is higher than without. Meta dependant. 4 Duals is enough I feel after about 30 games.

Sideboard:

2 Toxic - Because sometimes it is very good (but not enough times for MD).

2 Thoughtseize - I like reactive answers more, but you want a least 2 because it is very good to diversify your hate in legacy. Seize is also a very flexible card that is relevant vs Stoneforge, Miracles and combo.

2 Surgical Extraction - These are meta dependant. Surgical is widest and is powerful against storm. Against other combo decks it's a bit meh as it's usually pretty dead before the first counter-war. Planning on changing these into 2 Leyline of the Void to further boost the deck vs Loam/PF decks.

3 REBs - Now we are talking! The red splash is something I have become very addicted to in BUG during the last half-year or so. When you play DRS + 8 fetches that can find a Volc, splashing a 4th color vs decks without wasteland is very good (it is even good vs shardless as you also bring in crucible). REBs are there to deal with all the crap BUG doesn't like from other blue decks like Jace, Venser (popular in Stockholm), Misthollow Griffin and just general blue stuff.

1 Volcanic Island - Replaces basic Island or Basic Forest vs decks where REB comes in. Also used as an extra land on the draw agianst delver and vs lands/D&T/Aggro Loam.

1 Disfigure - Cuz maxing out on them is super good vs many decks (delver decks/D&T/Elves).

1 Crucible - Comes in along the 4th wasteland vs decks where you want another loam effect but not a second loam. Gives you very good tools vs Lands/infect and even delver decks. Also great under standstill!

1 Wasteland - See above

1 Needle - It's just very good

1 Cage - You need some kind of hate against elves/dredge/reanimator/PiF and this is the most versatile one.

Honorable mentions that are omitted from the list:
Hymn - because this isn't a tap-out deck that plays shardless agent, we already have 4 Standstill, 2 Jace, 1 Library and 1 Loam as CA.
Strix - See above. We want to trade 1-for-1 efficiently. Also, strix is worse in the meta than before.
Liliana - cus she is too slow/clunky and isn't good with counterspells. She belongs in shardless.
Invasive Surgery - This is nice, but REBS are better I think.
Deed - just too slow. Trading 1-for-1 and pulling ahead with standstill is enough.
Golgari Charm - Deluge is better I feel.
Null Rod - Disables mishra's factory :,( While that could be acceptable, a second needle is probably better.


Phew, thanks for reading! Would be delighted if someone had use for the list. I am not going to any GP's, so will just leave this here if you want it. If you have any questions/comments let me know and I will answer as best I can. The deck is pretty difficult to play correctly, you have to be pretty aware of CA, using the correct answer for he correct threat etc. Also you have to be able to judge board-states in a good way. And, don't throw away your cards because you sequence badly - If people for example try to plow your Factory, make sure that they do so when there is a standstill in play. Be patient.

Cheers! :)

ScottW
05-30-2016, 03:58 PM
@LarsLeif, Holy &?%$! That list is awesome. This list is so low to the ground that you could deploy a Goyf on T2 after Wasting their land or it could go very long. I like that it is not mid-range but has this role flexibility. I've considered the R splash for bolt but REBs are even more interesting.

Curious why you choose a Library rather than Top? Is it because of this ability to have fast hands and beat down in necessary match-ups? Or do you want to Needle Top Vs. Miracles?

LarsLeif
05-31-2016, 02:42 AM
@LarsLeif, Holy &?%$! That list is awesome. This list is so low to the ground that you could deploy a Goyf on T2 after Wasting their land or it could go very long. I like that it is not mid-range but has this role flexibility. I've considered the R splash for bolt but REBs are even more interesting.

Curious why you choose a Library rather than Top? Is it because of this ability to have fast hands and beat down in necessary match-ups? Or do you want to Needle Top Vs. Miracles?

Yes, being to play efficient spells that doesn't lose power late game (except pierce :p ) is really appealing I feel. As you say, it really makes the deck feel extremely flexible, and you can go from controlling defense to a fast offense almost from one turn to the other.

---

REBs are very good I feel, they compliment the counter-suite and discard nicely. To illustrate how the SB works here are some quick SB-plans:

Vs ANT: -3 Goyf -4 Decay -3 Disfig -1 Forest -1 Island + 3 Reb +2 Seize +2 Surgical +2 Deluge +1 Waste +1 Volcanic +1 Cage

Vs Infect: -4 Standstill -2 Jace -2 Snare -3 Basics +3 REB +2 Sezie +1 Deluge +1 Waste +1 Crucible +1 Volc +1 Disfig +1 Needle

Vs Miracles: -3 Disfig -2 Pierce -1 Island -1 Loam +3 REB +1 Volcanic +2 Seize +1 Needle

---

Library rather than top is because library draws a lot of cards vs decks that doesn't pressure your life-total. Versus StP-decks it even turns the life gained from plow (which would normally not be relevant) into actual card advantage. Getting a goyf plowed is suddenly a 2-for-1 in your favor, while you also get to "top" every turn. So library = Ancestral + Top, which makes it better than just top. You are also correct that we want to needle top vs them.

Nastaboi
05-31-2016, 08:48 AM
Looking at the lists being posted here I see a heap of very expensive, slow cards that sort of makes me wonder what standstill even does in the deck. If your deck is full of expensive sweepers and removal you will never achieve a neutral board-state unless you actually resolve one of them. In other words, until you resolve your big things, Standstill is useless. And if you are in a position to start resolving deeds, lilianas, deluges and jaces, what exactly do you need standstill to do? You are most likely winning anyway. Those kind of decks should probably just pick up Shardless agent and visions as well and just drop the Standstills, even though the card is sweet as honey.

You got me there. I have been long relying on my planeswalkers and not Standstill, and in present meta side them out rather often. Actually when I first built the deck, I had Visions in place of Standstills, but Standstill is just better card so they got the nod. I guess I have to admit that I'm just a sucker for card advantage.

I like your approach, it reminds me of Next Level Blue, the old Tarmo-Go. I gave it a spin and had to mulligan many hands with not enough colored mana. You don't play any black double casters so you have considerably easier mana requirements than in my list, but almost 1/3 of your lands are colorless and you don't even have that much use on colorless mana. I like Tar Pit as it's a colored source for both blue and black, though ETB tapped is a real cost. I have one question though:


2 Surgical Extraction - These are meta dependant. Surgical is widest and is powerful against storm. Against other combo decks it's a bit meh as it's usually pretty dead before the first counter-war.

I find Surgical not that powerful against storm and feel it plays in the match up as you described for other combo decks. How do you use it to prevent them going off?

Then I strongly disagree with your proposed SB plans. I have Goyfs on board first and foremost to bring in against decks like ANT. What you need in the matchup is a clock accompanied by disruption. Jace is not the wincon you want for this MU as you don't want to tap out for it while you could easily sneak in Goyf at any point. Standstill is only good in the MU if you already have Goyf in play, otherwise they can just sculpt perfect hand while taking 2 a turn and win through your three extra cards. REB and Cage are narrow but not totally dead. Decay is not good but not bad either, you can get their LED with careful timing and it hedges against Xantid Swarm and Confidant if somebody has these. Also, while Waste is good, Loam is not. Stone Rain is not what you want to be casting here.

Against Infect I like Jace more than Goyf, as Goyf can't block most of their creatures. The matchup is grind and after much trading you have to pull ahead in cards some way, and you can't rely on Standstill for obvious reasons. REB is not great here either but significant upgrade to Snare as it kills Agent and can counter their cantrips and FOW. This is the matchup where Charm is better than Deluge and why I run one of both.

Pierce was good against old Miracles list that had more Jaces and Entreat as main win con. It's worse now, but Seize is not that great either, so can't tell for sure which one is worse. The boarding plan for this match seems great otherwise, so it shouldn't make a big difference.

ScottW
05-31-2016, 10:32 AM
I agree with Nastobi on the SB versus ANT. I'm not sure about the SB in general and might reconfigure but definitely would keep Tarmogoyf to apply pressure. This is a match where Top would be good rather than Library although I like the reasons for Library still.

Edit: REBs are good to counter cantrips in this match-up as well.

LarsLeif
05-31-2016, 10:59 AM
The deck definitely plays few colored sources. That is a weakness, but I feel that the low color-requirement of the deck makes it ok. I think that the EV becomes lower if we start cutting Waste/Factories for duals/fetches.

I think that Surgical is ok against ANT. It protects agaisnt their fast PiF-kills, and can also be pretty great if we get to exile tutor etc. It's not super good, but better than Goyf/Decay for sure.

Regarding goyf, I don't agree that is very needed. You can keep a couple in but drawing too many is very bad, especially on the draw. DRS + Mishra's kills pretty fast and it isn't trivial for them to sculpt a perfect hand without being able to cast cantrips. Decay is usually better to keep in if you suspect Swarm/carpet/Bob etc. Loam should definitely be cut, that was a mistake.

I don't love Jace vs infect. I think that a common way for you to die is with too many expensive cards in hand. I also think that this is a matchup where goyf is fine, as having more blockers allows you to target their unblockable threats with your removal and ignore glistener. In this matchup I also think that goyf doubles nicely as a win-con. You can keep in 1 Jace, but 2 seems 1 too many.

I think seize is slightly better than pierce vs miracles as they usually bring in creatures (cliques/mentors) and their own rebs.

Nastaboi
06-02-2016, 04:06 PM
I tested Goyfs against Infect and they worked fine. Blocking was relevant and they helped closing the game after you stabilized and before Infect would draw another creature. But that made me realize another problem I also happen to have in some of my boarding plans: with just 20 or so blue spells MD, you can't board out more than four blue cards without greatly reducing effectiviness of FOW. So if I take both Standstill and Jace out, I have so few blue cards that I have to take Force out as well, and then I end up putting some Jaces back anyway. I tested Infect MU without Forces and it was okay anyway, but that realization made me reconsider some other boarding plans, like against Eldrazi where I used to keep Force in but didn't have enough pitch fodder. Next I have to tackle boarding plan vs. Elves, Standstill works here so I can keep Force if I want to, and Goyf works as a blocker but they can block it forever so racing with it is not likely.

LarsLeif
06-03-2016, 03:15 AM
Are you referring to your list or mine now? :P

Yes, going low on blue is kind of bad, but I still think I like doing it vs infect. Most games you never get to the point where you have to force anything (as you have too much blockers and removal for them to get a lethal attack through) and in the few games that you need to force, having around 14 cards is still usually enough to not die. At least, that is my experience of the matchup thus far.

Eldrazi is more sketchy, but vs them I keep both Jace and Standstill and most counterspells, so the blue-count is usually fine.

My board plan with my list vs elves is: -1 Loam -2 Basics -1 Jace/wasteland/pierce +2 Toxic +1 Disfig +1 Cage. Arguments could be made for bringing in Seize but I'm unsure if it's worth it. I guess Pierce is a possible cut for them but having fewer ways to answer an early Glimpse of the top is problematic.

Serch
06-03-2016, 09:30 AM
@Larsleif @Nastaboi why you don't play snapcaster in your list? Do u think is not good enough?

Actually I'm testing this:

1x Creeping Tar Pit
2x Mishra's Factory
1x Bayou
1x Forest
1x Island
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Polluted Delta
1x Swamp
2x Mishra's Factory
2x Tropical Island
2x Underground Sea
3x Wasteland

4x Force of Will
3x Abrupt Decay
4x Brainstorm
1x Counterspell
2x Spell Pierce
2x Spell Snare
1x Darkblast
2x Disfigure


2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

2x Pernicious Deed
4x Standstill
1x Sylvan Library

4x Tarmogoyf
4x Deathrite Shaman
2x Vendilion Clique


Sideboard:

1x Pithing Needle
1x Life from the Loam
2x Extirpate
2x Flusterstorm
2x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Invasive Surgery
1x Dismember
2x Thoughtseize
2x Toxic Deluge

Nastaboi
06-04-2016, 05:42 AM
I was not referring to any list in partucular as they all play 20-21 blue cards MD and confront the same problem.

I think Seize is good against Elves if you have room. Pierce is actively good against NO versions and probably worth it against Chaos Elves too as it still gets early Zeniths as well. Even if they can pay for Pierce it renders their Glimpse almost useless. Snare is bad though, it only hits Visonary, Zenith x=1 and possible Library. A land or two can be sided out but three feels too much.

Snapcaster has low impact for its casting cost and is a bit unreliable against opposing Shamans. There is one thing I really like about it though: it lets you play more copies of powerful but narrow SB cards like Surgical or Blast. I have chosen to go for power instead of utility, but if you like it the other way around, Snappy could be the card for you.

I think Surgical is better than Extirpate as zero mana is so much less than one. Also split second won't stop them getting Punishing Fire back if you want to exile them and they have Grove open. I also think that Murderous Cut is almost always better than Dismember, though there are situations where you'd rather have the latter.

LarsLeif
06-04-2016, 08:33 AM
Yeah snapcaster is a bit mana intensive, it is very good vs miracles though, so it is something you could consider in some metagames.

I have really liked snare vs elves actually. Hitting Visionary, Library and Zenith for X = 1 (aka stops them from assembling Visionary + Symbiote and other CA) is already good enough for me to want it. They also often SB Ooze, which it also is good against. It also pitches.

2 Lands have been fine to SB out actually, and I have tried 3 as well and it works ok.

LarsLeif
06-09-2016, 10:37 AM
Tested the deck some more. Still getting good results, I like that very few matchups are downright bad.

Some findings:

1. The surgicals in the board are now Leylines and that will be my preference going forward. Being able to stop Loam/PF is the most important thing in the "graveyard hate-meta".

2. Some SB-plans are a bit weak to Blood Moon/Choke. For example against Goblins and Maverick you want to cut a lot of counterspells, but that leaves you very vulnerable to an early Choke/Blood moon. Unsure about what to do about it, if anything needs to be done, I still feel that those matchups are fine overall.

3. The 4th Wasteland in the board has been very good, as have the SB Crucible. Keeping them both as for now.

If anyone else tries out the deck I would be very happy to hear about your results and findings! :=)

Nastaboi
06-09-2016, 02:51 PM
1. The surgicals in the board are now Leylines and that will be my preference going forward. Being able to stop Loam/PF is the most important thing in the "graveyard hate-meta".


I wholeheartely agree with last sentence. I however can afford only one slot so I feel one surgical does more against pf/loam than one leyline. I'm not even sure if two leylines are more effective than two surgicals as you're still unlike o see one in opening hand.


2. Some SB-plans are a bit weak to Blood Moon/Choke. For example against Goblins and Maverick you want to cut a lot of counterspells, but that leaves you very vulnerable to an early Choke/Blood moon. Unsure about what to do about it, if anything needs to be done, I still feel that those matchups are fine overall.


Just fight back with basics, shamans and decays. Playing Bayou and Tar Pit helps against Choke though.

Two days to gp Prague, I'll get back with the results afterwards.

LarsLeif
06-10-2016, 02:15 AM
Leyline is easily hardcasted in most matchups as I have 3 basics and DRS. Having it in your starting hand and getting to play it for free I only consider a bonus. I also like it more than surgical because it's a much more failsafe answer to Loam/PF due to cycling lands/opponent playing around surgical etc. Also, leyline doesn't get hosed by chalice or decayed, which is very big vs 4c Loam. Would run it even as a 1-off.

Yeah, if I get to untap with decay at the ready moon/choke loses much of their effectiveness. Sometimes you just win anyway if you have pressure and the opponent is taking their entire turn 3 off to attack your mana instead of your creatures. Will test some more.

GL in Prague! :)

Nastaboi
06-10-2016, 04:49 AM
My concern with Leyline is that when you have hardcast it they still get to get some value afterwards though just once. Also port/waste but that's a minor thing. The problem is, I don't have a competent Lands player available to test with.

LarsLeif
06-10-2016, 05:22 AM
I've tested pretty much against both lands and aggro loam, but mostly with shardless. 1-off Leyline was very good there though. Basically, in the games where they have to deal with your board, they don't have the time to port you, which means it's pretty easy to resolve Jace/Leyline. The games where you lose I feel are the ones where your draw lacks pressure, or they have a fast combo kill. So the effectiveness of Leyline depends on the game state, but even if they can get some value with it in play, most of their deck is suddenly lands, Shocks for 2 mana and Gamble + Loam without dredge, which basically means that they are on a combo-or-bust plan.

Nastaboi
06-10-2016, 06:12 AM
One-of Leyline even has added value in getting opponents to tilt. The more I think it, the more I like the idea. I'm sold.

LarsLeif
06-10-2016, 09:44 AM
One-of Leyline even has added value in getting opponents to tilt. The more I think it, the more I like the idea. I'm sold.

Just go with it, and prepare to feel the rush of adrenaline when you draw your starting hand post board against manaless dredge and look at the cards one at a time hoping that one of them is the "You win the game immediately"-card. :D

Ricardio
06-10-2016, 09:51 AM
I am a much bigger fan of surgical over leyline in this deck. Sustained as well as replacement effect gy interaction is great but against lands, I would rather have surgical for their depths, fires, loams, etc. 2 in the board and a snap or two main makes it super potent. As well as other matchups, being able to t1 seize they snt and surgical itshuts off a lot in the deck.

rubblekill
06-10-2016, 09:53 AM
Ricardio what list are you playing? Can you share it? [emoji1]

Nastaboi
06-10-2016, 10:59 AM
If I played Snapcaster I'd run Surgical for sure. Seize into Surgical was my plan against SNT a year ago, but the deck is all-time low right now. Removing all Depths is a thing, but eliminating all recursion feels more important.

Ricardio
06-10-2016, 11:53 AM
Ricardio what list are you playing? Can you share it? [emoji1]

I haven't been playing standstill. It wasn't working out for me in my meta so I switched back to BUG control. My buddy, who drove up to gp Columbus, was testing his reanimator and kept getting dumpstered by meta decks so I suggested he try my bug control deck and he loved it enough to take it with him. Hopefully he does well! I don't wanna muddy the thread with a non-standstill list


If I played Snapcaster I'd run Surgical for sure. Seize into Surgical was my plan against SNT a year ago, but the deck is all-time low right now. Removing all Depths is a thing, but eliminating all recursion feels more important.

The problem is you have to have it early or in your opener which means you have to run redundant copies and drawing them feels absolutely awful. I would rather eliminate their loams or depths and sit back to create a winning strategy than frantically hope this leyline is in play at the time I need it. I understand you need surgical in your hand or snap to cast it, I am just illustrating my feelings.

Ltj999
06-10-2016, 11:58 AM
I haven't been playing standstill. It wasn't working out for me in my meta so I switched back to BUG control. My buddy, who drove up to gp Columbus, was testing his reanimator and kept getting dumpstered by meta decks so I suggested he try my bug control deck and he loved it enough to take it with him. Hopefully he does well! I don't wanna muddy the thread with a non-standstill list



The problem is you have to have it early or in your opener which means you have to run redundant copies and drawing them feels absolutely awful. I would rather eliminate their loams or depths and sit back to create a winning strategy than frantically hope this leyline is in play at the time I need it. I understand you need surgical in your hand or snap to cast it, I am just illustrating my feelings.


Could you post or pm me your bug control list? I've been wanting to work on a bug control deck, similar to shardless but replacing the goyfs with tnn, shardless with snapcaster, and ancestral with painful truths

Ricardio
06-10-2016, 12:13 PM
Could you post or pm me your bug control list? I've been wanting to work on a bug control deck, similar to shardless but replacing the goyfs with tnn, shardless with snapcaster, and ancestral with painful truths

my list is in between Delver and Shardless. If you check out the team America midrange thread, there are great lists and people. I can go post mine there.

LarsLeif
06-13-2016, 05:43 AM
How did you fare at the GP Nastaboi?

Regarding surgical, with 4c loam being as popular as it is, having your gy hate having cmc 1 seems less than ideal. Agreed it is good with snappy, but I don't think snappy is as good in BUG as it is in plow/bolt decks.

Nastaboi
06-14-2016, 10:39 AM
Promising 5-0 start ended with dissapointing 5-4. Got two byes and won ANT, Andrea Mengucci playing Miracles and Eldrazi. Then lost to Eldrazi and BUG Delver. BUG Delver should be a good matchup but I seem to lose it time after time. Then got paired against an unwinnable matchup: Cloudposts, and saw zero Wastelands both games. Last round against Shardless I didn't even want to win so that I wouldn't have to play D2 with just a slim change to make money and no change for top 8, and lost to too many mulligans. Played TES in side event just for fun and different experience.

I think the deck was fine but the luck just wasn't on my side in the end. I did have the Leyline in my opening hand G2 against ANT though. :)

LarsLeif
06-14-2016, 11:07 AM
I did have the Leyline in my opening hand G2 against ANT though. :)

Living that dream! :D

Alright, well yeah, sometimes it's tough. 5-4 is still a positive W/L-ratio at least! :)

LarsLeif
08-26-2016, 08:59 AM
If anyone i still interested in standing still this is my most recent build of my own version of the archetype. It's is definitely one of the most fun legacy decks I've played, and I keep improving it from time to time. This is also one of the decks that could be a good fit for Leovold.

CREATURES (11)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique

ENCHANTMENTS (4)
4 Standstill
SORCERIES (1)
1 Life from the Loam

INSTANTS (19)
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Disfigure
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare
1 Dismember

PLANESWALKERS (2)
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

LANDS (23)
4 Mishra’s Factory
2 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest

SIDEBOARD (15)
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Spell Pierce
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Wasteland
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Disfigure
1 Pithing Needle
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Night of Souls’ Betrayal

weaselface
08-26-2016, 09:58 AM
If anyone i still interested in standing still this is my most recent build of my own version of the archetype. It's is definitely one of the most fun legacy decks I've played, and I keep improving it from time to time. This is also one of the decks that could be a good fit for Leovold.

CREATURES (11)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique

ENCHANTMENTS (4)
4 Standstill
SORCERIES (1)
1 Life from the Loam

INSTANTS (19)
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Disfigure
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare
1 Dismember

PLANESWALKERS (2)
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

LANDS (23)
4 Mishra’s Factory
2 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest

SIDEBOARD (15)
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Spell Pierce
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Wasteland
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Disfigure
1 Pithing Needle
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Night of Souls’ Betrayal
This is exactly the type of deck I've been wanting to play for a while now instead of Shardless.

Have you been doing ok with it?

LarsLeif
08-26-2016, 10:09 AM
Yes, quite so. The deck has some troublesome matchups (vial decks can be tough) but it has access to the tools required to fight these decks as well. Overall it is quite strong and much better vs combo than shardless for example.

Secretly.A.Bee
09-04-2016, 11:56 PM
Anyone else want to play new Leovold in here? Seems pretty good...

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LarsLeif
09-05-2016, 02:24 AM
I'm considering it. It depends at bit on how good he is outside blue matchups. Will probably test like a 2-off.

Secretly.A.Bee
09-05-2016, 11:42 AM
Well, Leovold:

-Basically makes Standstill one-sided.
-Makes Rishadan Port terrible.
-Gives value back from their wastelands.
-Works insanely well with spellskite as protection.
-In conjunction with Mindbreak Trap is decent against Tendrils of Agony.
-Is a 3-Drop in a Counterbalance deck.

Also, he makes me want to play Notion Thief in the board.

LarsLeif
09-05-2016, 03:27 PM
Well, Leovold:

-Basically makes Standstill one-sided.
-Makes Rishadan Port terrible.
-Gives value back from their wastelands.
-Works insanely well with spellskite as protection.
-In conjunction with Mindbreak Trap is decent against Tendrils of Agony.
-Is a 3-Drop in a Counterbalance deck.

Also, he makes me want to play Notion Thief in the board.

Well, diminishing the effectiveness of waste and port is a somewhat moot point as Leovold is quite expensive and requires 3 colors of mana... but it could be good.

Spellskite is not a Legacy card I think.

Flusterstorm should be the best card in conjunction with him, as it is good vs Tendrils, but also other combo decks.

Notion Thief is cute, but almost only good against Shardless.

All in all, he could be solid, but I definitely need to test him in this shell before knowing for sure. He has to prove his worth basically :p

Secretly.A.Bee
09-05-2016, 03:50 PM
You are entitled to your opinion.

He's not very expensive in a list with 24 lands and 4 Deathrite. A turn 2 leovold will be a fairly common play. Try not to think of cards in the terms of formats, but rather in situations.

Obviously you play flusterstorms. You also play Blue Elemental Blasts to fend off bolts and REBs that will be aimed immediately at his head.

Honestly, this guy is probably the most underrated card printed in Conspiracy 2.

Edit: I missed where you spoke about Notion Thief. He's better against Brainstorm and Griselbrand than anything else. He *may* be too cute, but if you are giving Leovold a "chance" in the main, it's basically hypocrisy to not give Thief one in the board, as they function similarly in strategy.

LarsLeif
09-06-2016, 02:50 AM
He is easy to play with Deathrite yes, but having DRS early and having it survive is not super common. 24 Lands isn't really correct either as colorless sources cannot cast him. So it might be a bit tough to get him out early vs waste/port decks. When we do get him out he will be good however.

I don't think of cards in format-categories per se, but I do however have a pretty established baseline for how good cards must be for me to include them in my lists. As this isn't a dedicated Leovold deck (we are talking about 2-3 copies max) then all other cards must be good on their own. And Spellskite just isn't good on its own in legacy, the power level of the card is just not there compared to what other decks are doing. The same goes for BEBs really. It pretty weak in most situations where you don't have Leovold, so it is hard to justify it. Most REBs will also be pointed at Leo on the stack, not while he is in play.

How do you mean underrated? I see people talk about him all the time, but maybe more in other forums, I dunno.

Anyway, I have 2 copies on the way, will see how he performs in the coming weeks.

Secretly.A.Bee
09-10-2016, 02:14 PM
The Lands matchup is atrocious (lost 3-0). I'm playing 4 leovold right now, and I disagree with you on land count, but I do with most people, so I won't get into that at this point. One more land *could* be a possibility, but as of now it's staying as I haven't had a problem with it. So far I have handily crushed Enchantress (lol, Leovold made that deck sick hard) and 4c Delver (I got lucky, he had 3 delver at the same time out early 1 game and they never flipped before I found a Deed and wiped the board. I often win with <3 life.

LarsLeif
09-24-2016, 07:49 AM
Been trying out Leovold in my GoyfStill deck for some time now and I have sadly reached the conclusion that he isn't very good in such a reactive deck. My version wants to tap out turns 1-2 but tapping down all mana on turn 3 is so innefective and leaves me vaulnarable to too many things. I think he would be much better in more tap-out versions of this deck.

Will replace him with a clique instead, and a Library.

My current list:

CREATURES (12)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Snapcaster Mage

ENCHANTMENTS (5)
4 Standstill
1 Sylvan Library

SORCERIES (1)
1 Life from the Loam

INSTANTS (19)
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare
2 Dismember
1 Disfigure

LANDS (23)
4 Mishra’s Factory
2 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest

SIDEBOARD (15)
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Spell Pierce
2 Disfigure
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Wasteland
1 Pithing Needle
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal

Secretly.A.Bee
09-24-2016, 11:46 AM
Leovold doesn't just get shoved into the deck, you have to make a fee changes, and I must say I'm not a huge fan of your list. You don't play CB OR Pernicious Deed, and historically speaking the deck often runs both. All blue disruption main feels weak, it would be better to move your Thoughtseizes to the main and board into more blue disruption in the matchups that it's best against. One of the best turn 1 plays that doesn't go "land, DRS" is Thoughtseize with FoW and blue card. Why play a 2nd Dismember over a 1st Maelstrom Pulse?

Your lands matchup is undoubtedly terrible, with your only true interactions being surgicals and Needle, which I must say is pretty shoddy, and other than goyfs, I'm not very sure how you are winning against Eldrazi, if in fact you are...

Leovold has been strong for me, but I play 0 Goyfs and am running an intuition to grab little combos that are good in certain matchups, since I can often do so on turn 2 if I draw it. So far the main things I do are as follows:

1 LftLoam
1 Baleful Strix
1 Academy Ruins

This is for playing against Eldrazi, mostly, but it can also be an eternal wall against a Marit Lage *if* they don't deal with your Academy Ruins, but it's pretty big if...

1 LftLoam
1 Wasteland
1 Mishra's Factory

This is my favorite package as its recurring disruption and threat all in one.

2x ??? (Instant/sorcery)
1, Snapcaster Mage

This is Demonic Tutor mode.

Anyway, my thoughts...


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LarsLeif
09-24-2016, 04:52 PM
Leovold doesn't just get shoved into the deck, you have to make a fee changes

No one claimed that to be the case. Of course you have to take the surrounding deck into consideration. However, what I wanted to test was his stand-alone power level in a reactive BUG Shell. I was not very impressed.


and I must say I'm not a huge fan of your list. You don't play CB OR Pernicious Deed, and historically speaking the deck often runs both.

What do you mean to say with this? You don't like the deck because I don't include cards that where good in 2011-2012? CB (Assume you mean Counterbalance?) is pretty unplayable outside of Miracles, and Pernicious Deed hasn't been good for... I don't even know, before Abrupt Decay and Deluge maybe? Arguments like "these low-power level cards has been played historically so you should totally include them" are generally not very impressive.


All blue disruption main feels weak, it would be better to move your Thoughtseizes to the main and board into more blue disruption in the matchups that it's best against. One of the best turn 1 plays that doesn't go "land, DRS" is Thoughtseize with FoW and blue card.

The deck you are describing is the Tap-out version of BUG. Those decks should also totally play Visions and Shardless Agent and have their own strengths and weaknesses, and their own thread. This deck is less grindy, but also much more mana efficient and much better against combo decks. Standstill is also much better alongside reactive cards as you can draw into those with Standstill while the opponents spell is still on the stack.


Why play a 2nd Dismember over a 1st Maelstrom Pulse?

Is this a serious question? Have we really come to the point where we have to discuss the merits of 1-mana removal vs 3-mana removal? This deck has decays and a lot of manlands, which means it's adept at dealing with most non-creature permanents and planeswalkers, the thing those dismembers mostly get pointed at are powerful t1 creatures like DRS/Mom, Gurmags and Reality Smashers. Pulse is super clunky vs most of those threats, while also Sorcery speed. It belongs in shardless.


Your lands matchup is undoubtedly terrible, with your only true interactions being surgicals and Needle, which I must say is pretty shoddy, and other than goyfs, I'm not very sure how you are winning against Eldrazi, if in fact you are...

The lands matchup is pretty fine I think. I have DRS, Loam, Clique, wasteland, pressure, basics, disruption, and post board also Needle, Crucible, Surgicals and more wastelands. I don't see how it could be terrible and it has been tight the few times I've faced the deck. I don't know if you underestimate this deck or overestimate the lands deck here, the matchup is definitely not "undoubtedly terrible". Eldrazi is sometimes tough, but goyfs and mishras and dismembers are good vs it, and I improve a lot post board when I get to cut most counterspells.



Leovold has been strong for me, but I play 0 Goyfs and am running an intuition to grab little combos that are good in certain matchups, since I can often do so on turn 2 if I draw it. So far the main things I do are as follows:

1 LftLoam
1 Baleful Strix
1 Academy Ruins

This is for playing against Eldrazi, mostly, but it can also be an eternal wall against a Marit Lage *if* they don't deal with your Academy Ruins, but it's pretty big if...

1 LftLoam
1 Wasteland
1 Mishra's Factory

This is my favorite package as its recurring disruption and threat all in one.

2x ??? (Instant/sorcery)
1, Snapcaster Mage

This is Demonic Tutor mode.


Those kinds of Intuition packages were pretty common about year 2012 or something. Glad to see that someone still appreciates that form of durdling. :p

btm10
09-24-2016, 05:19 PM
I haven't been thrilled with Leovold in a BUG midrange/control shell yet, (even without Shardless Agent), but I'm glad people are trying him out in other shells. I'm also glad that other people are finally running Crucible in a BUG shell, because that card is great. One thing I've been tempted to try it with is Cabal Pit, but it hasn't quite worked in Shardless. Thoughts?

LarsLeif
09-25-2016, 07:12 AM
I haven't been thrilled with Leovold in a BUG midrange/control shell yet, (even without Shardless Agent), but I'm glad people are trying him out in other shells. I'm also glad that other people are finally running Crucible in a BUG shell, because that card is great. One thing I've been tempted to try it with is Cabal Pit, but it hasn't quite worked in Shardless. Thoughts?

Crucible is really sweet with all the manlands and wastelands. It's nice to have an additional Loam effect without having to risk drawing several loams or getting them surgicaled. Plus it's a cool card :)

I did play Cabal Pit frequently a couple of years ago. I think it's good in very dedicated Loam/Crucible decks, but I think its value is reduced in the type of deck that this deck (and other midrange BUG decks) are: normal decks that happen to play Loam. Because then it competes a lot with normal mana sources and other, maybe more powerful utility lands like CTP, Mishras, and wasteland. Maybe it could be worth it in a more black/green build?

btm10
09-25-2016, 11:26 AM
That's similar to what I found, though having that effect on a card that's otherwise useful and has the benefit of being a colorless non-spell is something that would really benefit BUG. Alas, maybe it juat doesn't work.

LarsLeif
09-28-2016, 04:26 PM
3-1 with the deck list above tonight. Won against Miracles, UG 12post and Storm. Lost to Elf beatdown, with Dwyen's Elite and playset Shaman of the Pack xD. Did get stuck on 1 land vs choke game 2 though, so variance definitely played a part there.

Would make no changes to the decklist right now.

LarsLeif
10-06-2016, 04:32 PM
Another week, another 3-1 at the LGS. Deck is gas, so fun to play. Beat UWR Delver, OmniSneak and UB Thopter Helmline. Lost to Dark Maverick.

Eldrazi is picking up in popularity in Stockholm though, might have to squeeze in a couple of strixes in the 75.

LarsLeif
10-13-2016, 06:12 AM
Another 3-1 tonight. Won vs Eldrazi, Pox and Grixis Delver. Lost to miracles, mostly because of lackluster draws from my part and powerful sequences from his side. Still think that mathup is favoured.

The list feels very good, I incorporated some strixes for some extra insurance against Eldrazi and they were pretty great.

Current list:

CREATURES (12)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Snapcaster Mage

ENCHANTMENTS (5)
4 Standstill
1 Sylvan Library

SORCERIES (1)
1 Life from the Loam

INSTANTS (19)
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare
2 Dismember
1 Disfigure

LANDS (23)
4 Mishra’s Factory
2 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest

SIDEBOARD (15)
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Spell Pierce
2 Baleful Strix
1 Disfigure
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Wasteland
1 Pithing Needle
1 Garruk Relentless

Cheers.

Edit: Props to the Stockholm Legacy scene atm, we had 46 players yesterday which was really nice.

LarsLeif
10-23-2016, 05:35 AM
Took the above list to a local tournament yesterday. 5 rounds of swiss followed by top 8. The deck felt super good and I won the whole thing. Don't have time to write a complete report, but here are matchups and some boarding advise.

Matcups:

2-0 DnT
2-0 Eldrazi
2-1 Belcher
ID with Grixis Control
0-2 RG Lands

Top8: 2-1 Grixis Control
Top4: 2-1 RG Lands
Finals: 2-0 Eldrazi

I have been championing this config for a while now, but the deck is very real and there are so few bad matchups. Especially Eldrazi feels very good. Try it out! :)

How I boarded in the matchups:

DnT:
-4 Force -2 CS -2 Standstill
+2 Toxic +2 Seize +1 Needle +1 Crucible +1 Wasteland +1 Disfigure (Garruk might be worth it on the play)

Eldrazi:
-4 Force -2 CS
+2 Strix +1 Crucible +1 Wasteland +1 Garruk +1 Seize

Belcher:
-2 Decay -2 Dismember -2 Wasteland -1 Disfigure -1 Loam
+2 Seize +2 Pierce +2 Surgical +2 Toxic

RG Lands:
-4 Standstill -2 Dismember -1 Disfigure
+2 Surgical +2 Pierce +1 Crucible +1 Wasteland +1 Needle

Grixis Control (Pyromancers + Snapcasters etc)
-4 Force
+2 Seize + 1 Garruk +1 Pierce (thought he had Gurmags, but later he showed me he had TNNs, so in hindsight cutting 2 Dismembers for 2 Deluge might have been better)


Will gladly answer any questions :=)

crush
10-23-2016, 06:42 AM
Gratz!

I've been playing a similar list for a while. I use a different creature suite MD:
- 4 Goyf
- 1 Clique
+ 1 SCM

The changes are mostly based on the fact that dont own any Goyfs, but I dont like tapping out after T1 anyway.

This makes my Eldrazi matchup more difficult, but still managable. My biggest issue with this deck is that we dont have any answers to Marit Lage.

I have been trying out Mystic Confluence for this :-) Do you board in Strixes vs Lands for chumpblocking duty?

LarsLeif
10-23-2016, 06:52 AM
Gratz!

I've been playing a similar list for a while. I use a different creature suite MD:
- 4 Goyf
- 1 Clique
+ 1 SCM

The changes are mostly based on the fact that dont own any Goyfs, but I dont like tapping out after T1 anyway.

This makes my Eldrazi matchup more difficult, but still managable. My biggest issue with this deck is that we dont have any answers to Marit Lage.

I have been trying out Mystic Confluence for this :-) Do you board in Strixes vs Lands for chumpblocking duty?

Marit Lage is tough if it resolves. But, no, I don't board Strixes, my answer to Marit Lage is simply not to let them get to it. Wasteland + Loam/Crucible + Needle naming Stage is good enough I think. :)

LarsLeif
10-23-2016, 09:05 AM
And yes, goyfs are super expensive. But they are soooo good in this deck I think. They are potent blockers and enable us to close the game out quickly. Also very good vs eldazi and grixis which are very common these days.

I also think that one of the srtenghts of a standstill deck is that we don't really have to play expensive haymakers like mystic confluence, we can just play effecient, good cards, and standstill can be our haymaker.

If you don't have goyfs but want to go my route I think you can replace them with strixes, and play maybe another Clique in the board. Probably worse overall, but it might be solid.

landstillmaniac
10-31-2016, 03:54 PM
This past weekend was Legacy Champs in Columbus OhiOhio and I brought a UBGW Landstill list I brewed up. I finished with a 7-3 record good for 49th place out of almost 700 players. I felt I easily could have made the top 8 with a few changes and some tighter play. Here's the list I played and a quick run down on my rounds...

4c Landstill

4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Jace the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth Knight Errant
1 Snapcaster Mage

4 Standstill
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Brainstorm

1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember
3 Swords to Plowshares

4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare

4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Plains
3 Mishras Factory
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Wasteland

SIDEBOARD
2 Vendillion Clique
3 Flusterstorm
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Pithing Needle
1 Wasteland
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Dismember
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar

Rd 1, 2-1 win vs Eldrazi
Rd 2, 1-2 loss vs UB Reanimator [misplay :-( ]
Rd 3, 2-1 win vs Infect
Rd 4, 2-0 win vs BUG Delver
Rd 5, 2-1 win vs Miracles [beating 3x b2b]
Rd 6, 2-0 win vs Belcher
Rd 7, 2-1 win vs BR Reanimator
Rd 8, 1-2 loss vs Sneak & Show [had dead to rights with only 2 Show 0 sneak left in deck, top decks show for loss]
Rd 9, 2-0 win vs Mud
Rd 10, 0-2 loss vs Eldrazi

Conclusion: I haven't played competitive legacy in about 5 years but am a lifelong landstill pilot. I will address the eldrazi matchup because every other matchup felt fine. I believe I will add 1 Containment Priest sb, drop down to 1 Dismember, and continue tweaking the deck. Overall I love love loved the deck. Safe to say, this guy will be back to the legacy scene and push the landatill archetype back to the top ;-) ...enjoy!

H
11-02-2016, 07:29 AM
That's awesome man. I was thinking about 4-Color Landstill just a couple weeks ago, Tales of Adventure was streaming some "2005 Era" Legacy decks and that go me thinking back to those old days, when I first started reading about Legacy. The two decks I would always pay attention to were 4-Color Landstill and Team America. It's neat to see that 4-Color is still somewhat viable. Goes to that old saying that Legacy decks are almost never dead, just sleeping. I played BUG Landstill for about a year in 2014 with decent results.

The only thing I see off the top of my head, is that Counterspell looks a little awkward with 9 Lands that don't make Blue. Mind you, Counterspell is awesome (literally top 3 favorite Magic card), but did you ever experience any issues with getting :u::u:?

landstillmaniac
11-02-2016, 08:50 AM
That's awesome man. I was thinking about 4-Color Landstill just a couple weeks ago, Tales of Adventure was streaming some "2005 Era" Legacy decks and that go me thinking back to those old days, when I first started reading about Legacy. The two decks I would always pay attention to were 4-Color Landstill and Team America. It's neat to see that 4-Color is still somewhat viable. Goes to that old saying that Legacy decks are almost never dead, just sleeping. I played BUG Landstill for about a year in 2014 with decent results.

The only thing I see off the top of my head, is that Counterspell looks a little awkward with 9 Lands that don't make Blue. Mind you, Counterspell is awesome (literally top 3 favorite Magic card), but did you ever experience any issues with getting :u::u:?

Well I didn't find Counterspell to be hard to cast mainly because Deathrite Shaman is a hell of a card. I don't have a ton of blue sources but I do have 8 fetch lands. Thank you, I can't wait to play more legacy. This was a direct inspiration from legacy years ago and it felt wonderfully!

LarsLeif
11-12-2016, 05:46 PM
After some discussions about decklist and some tuning together with another very good legacy player in the Stockholm region (egg3t for those who frequent MTGO) I took the following deck list to a GPT for GP Chiba:

CREATURES (12)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Snapcaster Mage

ENCHANTMENTS (5)
4 Standstill
1 Sylvan Library

SORCERIES (1)
1 Life from the Loam

INSTANTS (19)
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare
2 Dismember
1 Disfigure

LANDS (23)
4 Mishra’s Factory
2 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou

SIDEBOARD (15)
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Spell Pierce
2 Baleful Strix
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Disfigure
1 Pithing Needle

Won the whole tournament again, my matchups were:

ANT 2-1
Miracles 2-0
Stax 2-0
Double ID
Top 8: Infect 2-0
Top 4: BUG Food Chain 2-1
Finals: Infect 2-0

The deck is fantastic, the new Ghost Quarters in the board over performed and I warmly recommend it. I am now 21-4 with it over the past few events. Egg3t also streams it regularly on twitch.

If you have any questions send them my way and I will try to answer as best I can.

btm10
11-12-2016, 06:05 PM
Ghost Quarter has been great in every deck I've tried it in lately. Any reason for MD Loam over MD Crucible?

LarsLeif
11-12-2016, 06:44 PM
It is much harder to interact with, so it gets the nod MD. For post board games I sometimes want another such effect, but then the first Crucible is better as they require different answers. :=)

weaselface
11-13-2016, 01:38 AM
Some random thoughts:

-How has the manabase been without basics? Do you miss them in any MU:s?

-I'm at 8 fetch, 8 fetchable atm because I'm paranoid of running out of fetchables.

-I'm having a hard time letting go of MD Jace.

-GQ seems like a nice addition. Will have to test.

Anyway the deck seems sweet. Hope to get more games in with it.

Fjaulnir
11-13-2016, 02:02 AM
Thus list looks great!! I have to test this as I have all the cards but Crucible/GhQuarter.

When would you side in GhQ, is it just Wasteland 3-4 for nonbasic decks? Or for a very grindy play against decks with basics (Dnt, miracles).

LarsLeif
11-13-2016, 12:19 PM
Thus list looks great!! I have to test this as I have all the cards but Crucible/GhQuarter.

When would you side in GhQ, is it just Wasteland 3-4 for nonbasic decks? Or for a very grindy play against decks with basics (Dnt, miracles).


It comes in against miracles as well, along with crucible. They only play about 3 red sources, and never more than 1 basic mountain, so you go after those first. That shuts down all rebs and wears, which means they cannot deal with crucible or fight your standstills. Then you go after all white sources and it's finished.

I would also bring them in against DnT yes.

LarsLeif
11-13-2016, 12:23 PM
Some random thoughts:

-How has the manabase been without basics? Do you miss them in any MU:s?

-I'm at 8 fetch, 8 fetchable atm because I'm paranoid of running out of fetchables.

-I'm having a hard time letting go of MD Jace.

-GQ seems like a nice addition. Will have to test.

Anyway the deck seems sweet. Hope to get more games in with it.

The manabase is pretty great, have had 0 issues with too few fetchable sources, but you could definitely swap a fetch for another dual (sea number 4) if you wish.

MD Jace just isn't good enough in legacy anymore outside miracles I feel. And against miracles (where he historically has been good) he just isn't as they are mostly predict + REB.dec post board, and tapping out main phase for a blue cmc-4 spell just isn't worth it. Try without is my recommendation, the deck draws tons of cards anyway :=)

Fjaulnir
11-13-2016, 12:49 PM
It comes in against miracles as well, along with crucible. They only play about 3 red sources, and never more than 1 basic mountain, so you go after those first. That shuts down all rebs and wears, which means they cannot deal with crucible or fight your standstills.

And more importantly (equally important?), Blood Moon ;) (/from the ashes). That card is game over.

LarsLeif
11-13-2016, 12:55 PM
And more importantly (equally important?), Blood Moon ;) (/from the ashes). That card is game over.

Definitely. Those cards are must counters until the red sources are gone.

Fjaulnir
11-13-2016, 01:06 PM
Definitely. Those cards are must counters until the red sources are gone.

Would you cut 2 lands for the Ghost Quarters when boarding them in, or 1-2 spells? Cutting Wasteland against Miracles could be okay (I think?), but wouldnt do that spontaneously against DnT or Lands.

LarsLeif
11-13-2016, 02:48 PM
Would you cut 2 lands for the Ghost Quarters when boarding them in, or 1-2 spells? Cutting Wasteland against Miracles could be okay (I think?), but wouldnt do that spontaneously against DnT or Lands.

I keep Wasteland, it's great at dealing with the volcanics and tundras (and other potential non-basics).

The sideboard plan against Miracles (mentor version, always adapt) right now is -4 Goyf -3 DRS -2 Dismember -1 Disfigure +2 Deluge +2 Seize +2 Pierce +2 GQ + 1 Crucible +1 Needle. If they have a lot of cliques then Strix is good too.

LarsLeif
11-20-2016, 11:16 AM
Updating the list a little to hopefully make it slightly better against delver decks. 4 Strixes in the 75 instead of 2 should help increase the win% against those decks while still maintaining the good matchups. Updated list:

CREATURES (12)
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Baleful Strix
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique

ENCHANTMENTS (5)
4 Standstill
1 Sylvan Library

SORCERIES (1)
1 Life from the Loam

INSTANTS (19)
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare
2 Dismember
1 Disfigure

LANDS (23)
4 Mishra’s Factory
2 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou

SIDEBOARD (15)
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Spell Pierce
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Baleful Strix
1 Disfigure
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Pithing Needle

landstillmaniac
11-27-2016, 07:18 AM
Yesterday I won legacy at MVP games! Bringing home a Time Vault! Thanks Terrance Calvin Hodges and BMG for a kickass event. It was 25ish people.

4c Landstill

4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Jace the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth Knight Errant
1 Snapcaster Mage

4 Standstill
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Brainstorm

1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember
3 Swords to Plowshares

4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare

4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Plains
3 Mishras Factory
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Wasteland

SIDEBOARD
2 Vendillion Clique
3 Flusterstorm
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Containment Priest
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Pithing Needle
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Wasteland

Rd 1 0-2 delver
Rd 2 2-1 belcher
Rd 3 2-1 death blade
Rd 4 1-1-1 death blade
Rd 5 2-0 miracles

T8 2-1 delver
T4 2-0 storm
Finals 2-0 miracles (beating a resolved back to basics and ruination in game 2)

Today the cards were good. I needed to run this deck back after a great showing at champs!

HSCK
12-17-2016, 08:43 PM
So I've been working on various deks with Leovold, wanted to know if anyone's tried him in landstill. Some one did really well in Vintage with LeoStill and I was wondering if I could port it to Legacy.

EDIT: Was it you landstillmaniac?

Secretly.A.Bee
12-17-2016, 09:36 PM
I have as well as Lars Leif here on this thread. I tried a CB approach to mediocre success, however clunky the build, while Lars is having seemingly solid success with a more tempo feel.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

Serch
12-18-2016, 06:01 AM
Yesterday I won legacy at MVP games!

Congrats for your result! I've tested your list with a little changes (-1 caster +1 humility in main and different sideboard) with good results, too much fun playing this deck.

4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Jace the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth Knight Errant

4 Standstill
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Humility
4 Brainstorm

1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember
3 Swords to Plowshares

4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare

4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Plains
3 Mishras Factory
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Wasteland

SIDEBOARD
2 Vendillion Clique
2 Flusterstorm
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Virtue's Ruin
2 Containment Priest
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Pithing Needle
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Null Rod

Kyuuri117
12-18-2016, 03:11 PM
Hey, kind of new to UBGx Landstill. Got kind of bored with Shardless, and decided to try this out. Basically tried to make a BUG version of Lam Phan's UR list, and this is what i've come up with. Thoughts?

3 Snapcaster Mage

2 Thoughtseize
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
2 Disfigure
1 Counterspell
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will

1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge

1 Engineered Explosives

2 Pernicious Deed
3 Standstill

2 JTMS
2 LotV

4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wateland
1 Fairy Conclave (running this over tarpit b/c of delver)
1 Bayou
2 Trop Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Island
3 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacomb
1 Misty Rainforest


Sideboard

2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Dread of Night
1 Pithing Needle
1 Life from the Loam
1 Null Rod
1 Golgari Charm
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Mindbreak Trap
2 Nissa, Vital Force