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Bardo
05-01-2008, 02:11 AM
This is a companion to the UW(x) Landstill (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9280) thread, but is focused on the versions of Landstill that:
1) use white as a support color, if that;
2) typically incorporate Pernicious Deed as part of their control suite.

Examples include BHWC/BHWW Landstill, Tacosnape's 4c list and others.



In the coming days, this opening post will be developed with lists, questions for discussion, strategic and tactical observations, relevant tournament results and other things that make for a quality opening post in this here forum. Stay tuned!

Tacosnape's U/b/g/w list:

4 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Nantuko Monestary

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Jace Beleren
1 Life From The Loam

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Diabolic Edict

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Stifle

1 Crime // Punishment
1 Extirpate

Sideboard:
4 Meddling Mage
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Extirpate
2 Engineered Plague
2 Krosan Grip

Team Bitches & Hoes West Coast (now World Wide) Landstill Primer (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=31693.0)

BHWC/BHWW Landstill
(Top 8 GenCon 2006)

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Fact or Fiction
3 Stifle

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell

4 Pernicious Deed
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Disenchant
2 Crucible of Worlds

4 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Nantuko Monastery
3 Wasteland
1 Plains

Sideboard
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Engineered Plague
4 Meddling Mage
3 Duress

mossivo1986
05-01-2008, 04:09 AM
"Agh my time has come" - Referance to snl celebrity jeapordy.

oh and also "Edit" Second! first if you dont count the intro!

That said great intro bardo and to point out both those still lists are excellent.

I really like taco's list as it abuses the black splash more, although it does give up the raw dog power of deed, it is much better in alot of cases then 99.99% of the lists you will see here.

As for the team list it does look a bit outdated to me. 2 md disenchant I think backs my argument, but I could be wrong.

A personal taste for me is the 4c_wish_still that der/wasteland play. It abuses right about everything one can abuse and has a pretty fair matchup against the field, - dragon stompy and moon thresh. Two decks that feel like shifts in the metagame this winter, but are slowly being drowned as people just don't fall for blood moon anymore.

For referance heres der/ wasteland's list.

// Lands
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [UNH] Island
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
1 [UNH] Plains
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [B] Savannah
1 [B] Scrubland
1 [B] Tropical Island
4 [B] Tundra
2 [B] Underground Sea
1 [TE] Wasteland
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [FUT] Tolaria West

// Creatures
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [IA] Counterspell
1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [TE] Humility
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 1 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [RAV] Seed Spark
SB: 1 [FUT] Slaughter Pact

The one thing I really enjoy about this list is humility. I can personally tell you that humility not only wins games, but it can create huge virtual card advantage just by pulling a cycling speed wrath with doj the very next turn IF even neccesary. As far as general direction of the deck I don't like the recently added 4th deed to the md. It does bring a bit more consistency, but it sacrifices speed which isn't something the deck needs in my opinion. Landstill as a general principle is all about consistency already and taking away 2 early tempo killers like spell snare for a 3 drop removal spell and I believe an extra land is almost not even worth it to me.

Now I don't mean to be negative at all, because this deck is amazing and has only done me well in games I thought were unwinnable for the landstill archtype as a whole.

That said I hope I gave der/ wasteland's list the mad props they deserve.

Andr3a
05-01-2008, 04:32 AM
I use to play landstil too, but I don't like these lists for many reasons.

Tacosnape's U/b/g/w list:

The manabase is quite regular, 6 fetch, 4x duals, no basic land and 6 colorless land. Good

then....

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Jace Beleren
1 Life From The Loam

I can't understand these choices.

Jace Beleren is just an utility, it allows us and our opponent to draw and it can make opponent's tarmogoyf bigger. The matter is: why are we playing jace? Maybe because we need to draw? then it's better to play fact or fiction. maybe because we need a finisher? Jace isn't the best finisher we can find. Maybe I'm dull and I can't see how strong jace is in this deck, but I don't like it and that's it.

About Life from the Loam. Some people prefer it to crucible of Worlds. The question is: why?
Life from the loam is "eternal", we can dredge and return it in hand but if we dredge we can't draw but as we are a control deck we must draw as much as we can.
"if life from the loam is countered or forced to discard, we can play it from grave". Land recursion isn't such important in this deck. It is an utility and that means we can win even without lftl or crucible. lftl or crucible help us with mana screw and are useful to make manlands return in play, but it isn't a major problem. So I think it isn't worth to lose a strong card like crucible to keep a card that isn't good in this deck, only because we are afraid that the opponent can discard or counter it.

We have 3 diabolic edict in addition to stp. This is a choice, I think, referred to an aggro meta. Landstill suffers against aggro, so I'm agree with it

In the end, I see 1xExtirpate :confused: . Is this a personal tech, isn't it?


BHWC/BHWW Landstill
(Top 8 GenCon 2006)

As to me this list is quite better, even if some questionables points like:

-disenchant main deck(I think it's against needle, so, as to me, it's better e.e and crime\punishment),
-mono plains (is it against magus of the moon?)
-the third nantuko, that is useless in the early and middle game.


I think that both these list havenìt an alternative finisher other then manlands.

What about tarmogoyf? and tombstalker? The first is quick and big, a good shield and great beater. The second is a bit slower but it can fly and sometimes it is even bigger.

What do you think?

arsenalpow
05-01-2008, 10:16 AM
As to me this list is quite better, even if some questionables points like:

-disenchant main deck(I think it's against needle, so, as to me, it's better e.e and crime\punishment),
-mono plains (is it against magus of the moon?)
-the third nantuko, that is useless in the early and middle game.


I think that both these list havenìt an alternative finisher other then manlands.

What about tarmogoyf? and tombstalker? The first is quick and big, a good shield and great beater. The second is a bit slower but it can fly and sometimes it is even bigger.

What do you think?

This list was from 2006 Gencon and Tarmogoyf and Magus of the Moon did not exist. This list is quite outdated and would need an overhaul to match up with the current metagame.

Nightmare
05-01-2008, 10:53 AM
Because I haven't had a lot of opportunity to play lately, and I've done some development with the deck that I think can benefit the masses playing Landstill, I'd like to post my most recent list for discussion, as well. It's not the stereotypical list, by any means, and I expect some questions on my card choices, so I'll attempt to explain them as best as I can. So here it is:

EPIC UBg Landstill - Adam Barnello

4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Wasteland

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
2 Jace Beleren
1 Life From The Loam

3 Vendetta
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Crime // Punishment

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Stifle
2 Spell Snare
2 Moment's Peace

Sideboard - (Tuned to Metagame):
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Extirpate
3 Vedalken Shackles
3 Engineered Plague

The cards I'm sure that stand out in that list are Vendetta and Moment's Peace. So here's why.

Vendetta - Even with 8 Fetchlands, I hate having to rely on having one in play on turn 1 for Ghastly Demise to be able to kill Goblin Lackey. You're basically utilizing a card (GD) that is terrible early, and excellent mid to late game. Why? I'm under the impression, and I don't think I'm wrong, that Landstill has one of the best late games out of any deck in Legacy. You don't need the boost there, you need it early, when you're trying to stabalize and drag the game into the lategame, where you dominate. So I've used Vendetta, which is still not StP, but better early than GD. The card isn't without flaws. It's difficult to adequately deal with a large-ish Goyf with Vendetta. However, access to Deed, Punishment, and Spell Snare takes care of that, as does Shackles from the board. Neither GD nor Vendetta can deal with Doran or Tombstalker, so that point is moot.

Moment's Peace (aka 2x Time Walk) - This works under the same principle as Vendetta; that Landstill is best suited to play the long game. Moment's Peace buys you a million turns. Well, 4, but that's plenty. If any of you remember playing Standard and Extended when Wake was big, you can recall how frustrating it was to have to fight through multiple Fogs. Now, Wake was a little better at capitalizing on those fogs, because of DoJ, but we have the excellent Pernicious Deed to mop the floor, which is similar in overall effect.

The one thing I'm having issues with in this deck is the lack of win conditions. However, I don't think saying "add 4 goyf" is the right solution. I'd like to see some kind of "real" win condition in the deck that exploits something other than the combat step, and isn't Jace - who is awesome, despite what you may have heard. I'll get to that in a second. I've been strongly considering the following changes to the deck:

-2 Spell Snare
-1 Crime//Punishment
-1 Stifle
-1 Wasteland

+3 Intuition
+1 Mindslaver
+1 Academy Ruins

This would allow me to effectively Intuition for the Slave lock, by getting Ruins, LftL, Slaver. I've never had an issue with throwing a million land in play, and I think the ability to lock someone with Mindslaver is something this format is desperately lacking. It's worth considering, anyway.

On Jace - The naysayers are correct when they assume that he replaces the FoFs. They are incorrect if they think he provides card advantage to the opponent. There are three things Jace can do, all of which are desirable for Landstill:

1) He can ramp up when you're in control of the board, and win the game on his own. This is very, very rarely the way to use him in this deck.
2) He can go -1, -1, +2 over and over again, netting you three cards to your opponent's one card every cycle. This is the way you want to play with him. It's a permanent source of card advantage, and if you use him this way for more than a few turns, it's pretty friggin hard to lose the game.
3) He cantrips and then they kill it, providing you with a fog. That's fine, you've just invested no cards into survivng one more turn towards your goal of the lategame.

He's good folks. I wouldn't lie to you about it.

diffy
05-01-2008, 11:37 AM
Vendetta


If this is solely intended as a better out to Goblin Lackey and to survive the early game, wouldn't Innocent Blood be better? It still deals with creatures early but doesn't hit you for infinite later in the game.



Intuition

I feel as if Intuition could be pretty good in Landstill, especially since it allows you to play a mini-toolbox via Life from the Loam [1 Wasteland, 1 Academy Ruins, 1 Engineered Explsoves etc.] and because it is pretty broken in conjunction with Moment's Peace (maybe add the third one?).
I'm not sure if Mind Slaver is maindeck material though (stuff that's only good in the lategame is always borderline winmore - especially if there are no applications for the earlygame) - seems way too clunky, maybe in the board for the control mirrors?

Maybe try something along these lines:

-2 Spell Snare
-1 Crime//Punishment
-1 Stifle
-3 Vendetta
-1 Land (Underground Sea | Tropical Island | Island)

+3 Innocent Blood
+3 Intuition
+1 Academy Ruins
+1 Engineered Explosives

I'm also not too fond of 2 Stifles... I have never really liked them and so I'm probably biased, but two seems like the worst possible number you could be running, especially since you want them early or never. You could possibly cut them totally for Moment's Peace n°3 and another removal or try to fit the third one back in.

Variant 1:
-2 Stifle
+1 Moment's Peace
+1 Vedalken Shackles (?)

Variant 2:
-1 Diabolic Edict (easiest cut slot as you already have quite a lot of removal)
+1 Stifle

Variant 3:
-2 Diabolic Edict
+1 Stifle
+1 Moment's Peace

I like that last variant most: you still play 8 'hard' removal spells (3 Innocent Blood, 1 Engineered Explosives, 4 Pernicious Deed) and have a terrific lategame-removal-plan via Intuition as well as having access to more tempo cards than either of the variants above (3 Stifle, 3 Moment's Peace).

Nightmare
05-01-2008, 11:43 AM
There's two reasons I hate Innocent Blood.

1 - It's a Sorcery. Yuck. If I was going to play Sorcery Speed removal, why would I play Diabolic Edict over Chainer's Edict.
2 - Vendetta targets, which is something I actually do want out of my StP replacement. Obviously Turn 1 Lackey on the draw is important to consider, which is why it's 1cc, but it's not the only consideration. I'd still like to be able to kill SGC, for example, since it's harder to Deed away, and neither Innocent Blood nor Edict will take care of it. I'd like to be the one deciding which creatures I kill, if you know what I mean.

Michael Keller
05-01-2008, 11:59 AM
I know it's not Vendetta, but if we're talking early removal, perhaps Funeral Charm? I mean, the opposing creature would have to have an ass of one, obviously. It's pretty versatile.

Nightmare
05-01-2008, 12:13 PM
This thread definately shouldn't degrade into a discussion on what the best 1cc black removal spell is, but let's put it this way. In my eyes, there are a few options. I'll list the pros and cons of them here:

Darkblast - Kills Lackey and Confidant, etc. Uncounterable. Unable to deal with bigger than X/1 guy.
Deathmark - Kills Goyf for 1. Doesn't kill Lackey. Narrow. Sorcery Speed.
Funeral Charm - Versatile, but kills only X/1s.
Ghastly Demise - Dependant on Graveyard, can't kill black creatures.
Innocent Blood - Untargetted, which is both a pro and con. Sorcery Speed.
Lose Hope - Offers card selection. Can only kill X/1s.
Paralyze - Tempo based, slows big guys down a TON. Sorcery speed, Grip-able.
Vendetta - Can't kill black creatures, life cost.

To me, the best two are Demise and Vendetta. It's a question of reliability vs. drawback, and once again in my opinion, Landstill is better equipped to use Vendetta. I think Demise is better in Thresh, though.

Michael Keller
05-01-2008, 01:22 PM
I really think Moment's Peace is is a solid choice. Considering the Top Eight list that placed well at Gen-Con with Crucible, how about one (or several) Constant Mists? It always seems to be played down on paper, but when that gets going (especially against aggro), there in't much they can do for more than a few turns. I mean, if you're going to maintain three open mana to flash it back anyways, you might as well leave yourself one more open until you find an answer.

The only downside (which is plausible) of Constant Mists is that it keeps you set back on your land count. That can be a problem if you're playing control, and especially with Shackles and Deed trying to pick up goods.

Fog in nature is a Time Walk of sorts, so I can see where Moment's Peace comes in handy. While it gets you to four lands with no combat damage in sight, it does however put you back on Brainstorm and other Instant capabilities until you get there because you need to keep that mana open. Then you'd have to wait a turn to cast Deed and another to (probably) use it.

Has that ever been an issue for you or not?

Nightmare
05-01-2008, 01:35 PM
Moment's Peace isn't really the turn 2, turn 3 play. It's more like the turn 4, turn 6 play. Usually you have plenty of mana open.

Illissius
05-01-2008, 02:15 PM
There's also Snuff Out. It doesn't feel like a Landstill card very much, but then neither does Vendetta. Snuff Out has the following advantages:

- Rather than :b:, it costs :0:
- Costs you less life when killing a big Goyf or Terravore or Countryside Crusher or Phyrexian Dreadnought or (what else?)
- Can be hardcast to not cost you any life
- FWIW: Counterbalance

and the following disadvantages:

- Costs you more life when killing anything else (3 more, in Lackey's case)

Also, if you want to run Funeral Charm in Landstill then Piracy Charm is better, but I suggest you don't want to use either. (MUC doesn't even use Piracy Charm for FSM's sake, and their options for removal are a lot more limited.)

Is a singleton Wasteland better than a singleton Dust Bowl?

Shadowfax
05-01-2008, 04:04 PM
I use such a list

4 swords to plowshares
4 standstill
2 crucible of worlds
3 cunning wish
4 pernicious deed
3 stifle
4 counterspell
4 force of will
3 brainstorm
2 fact or fiction
3 tombstalker
4 mishras factory
3 flooded strand
3 polluted delta
1 island
4 wasteland
2 tundra
1 scrubland
3 tropical island
3 underground sea

Sideboard:
3 extirpate
2 blue elemrntal blast
2 hydroblast
1 ghostly demise
1 enlightened tutor
1 pulse of the fields
1 slaughter pact
1 disenchant
3 engeneered plague

This is a good ballanced build.
I use Tombstalkers instead of Tarmogoyfs becouse
1) They remove cards for cunning wish!
2) They make other tarmos and terravores smaller
3) They have flying
4) They are black
5) They do not die with DEED!!!

Cunning Wish + Tombstalker is a great small combo try it!
1 island+ cunning with kill blood moon and extirpate loam
cunning wish+ tutor= crucible, deed, standstill, plague
cunning wish+ pact kill magus of the moon

landstill101
05-01-2008, 04:36 PM
I use such a list

4 swords to plowshares
4 standstill
2 crucible of worlds
3 cunning wish
4 pernicious deed
3 stifle
4 counterspell
4 force of will
3 brainstorm
2 fact or fiction
3 tombstalker
4 mishras factory
3 flooded strand
3 polluted delta
1 island
4 wasteland
2 tundra
1 scrubland
3 tropical island
3 underground sea

Sideboard:
3 extirpate
2 blue elemrntal blast
2 hydroblast
1 ghostly demise
1 enlightened tutor
1 pulse of the fields
1 slaughter pact
1 disenchant
3 engeneered plague

This is a good ballanced build.
I use Tombstalkers instead of Tarmogoyfs becouse
1) They remove cards for cunning wish!
2) They make other tarmos and terravores smaller
3) They have flying
4) They are black
5) They do not die with DEED!!!

Cunning Wish + Tombstalker is a great small combo try it!
1 island+ cunning with kill blood moon and extirpate loam
cunning wish+ tutor= crucible, deed, standstill, plague
cunning wish+ pact kill magus of the moon

tombstalker is great in many cases because it cant be blocked most of the time and it is a 5/5 but it still the fact that most of the time casting it once is practically impossible untill turn 5-6 and by then you should have the lock down and it makes tombstalker a win more card, also tombstalker it hard to cast more than once, it forces you to have double black, and with all the wastelands running around it is really easy to keep you off double black and unless your going nutz and dropping cards in your graveyard like crazy your not gonna have alot to remove for the second one when they swords your tombstalker. tombstalker would be great in decks that are more black heavy and dont have an amazing late game as it is but when it comes to it, its a dead card in the start of hand and your just helping the part of the match that is already good as it is, if you have problems winning lategames then you obviously arnt playing the deck right. the deck has problems with the early game, everyone knows that, that is why goyf is a better choice, you dont need double black and it comes out on turn 2 when you need the creature the most. also when it comes to it the 2 main matchups in legacy.... threshold.... goblins. Threshold has easy ways to deal with tombstalker just as it is for goyf but if you play a goyf early they dont have as many opportunities as they would after they draw 10 more cards by the time you play stalker. and they can out race your tombstalker anywaze. And goblins, well they can kill you by the time you get stalker out. try goyf out it works alot better.

If you intend to continue posting in the DtB forum, it is imperative that you learn to use the shift key and utilize proper grammar. Please clean this post up - if you intend to spend the time writing out a response, have the pride to do it well. ~ Nightmare

bladewing019
05-01-2008, 07:48 PM
Darkblast - Kills Lackey and Confidant, etc. Uncounterable. Unable to deal with bigger than X/1 guy.

I'd just like to point out that if you have 2 black sources it can take out an X/2. Usually by playing it during your upkeep, dredging, and playing again. It is possible to take out bigger creatures, but rarely feasible.

Mantis
05-01-2008, 08:46 PM
// Lands
1 [TE] Wasteland
2 [R] Underground Sea
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory
3 [U] Tropical Island
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [7E] Island
1 [MOR] Mutavault
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
1 [US] Swamp
1 [DK] Maze of Ith

// Spells
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [TE] Intuition
4 [IA] Brainstorm
3 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
3 [SC] Stifle
4 [OD] Innocent Blood
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [PR] Counterspell
1 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [OD] Moment's Peace
SB: 1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 [LRW] Thoughtseize

My list, tweaked to beat have a good matchup against Loam and Threshold. This explains the Tormod's Crypt which can be fetched by Intuition and the sideboard. Innocent Blood is there for Mongeese and Deed is pretty amazing against Threshold as well. This pretty much sums up the Innocent Blood vs. Vendetta debate as well I think. If Threshold is prevalent play Innocent Blood, if not play Vendetta.

Intuition provides you with a huge degree of inevitability, very much like the way Jace does for other versions. In the lategame Cephalid Coliseum just draws you a ton of cards. But what I really like about Intuition is that it's so versatile. I search for 3 FoW's or 3 Vedalken Shackles all the time. Against graveyard reliant decks you are not helpless anymore as you can just recur Tormods Crypt, by searching Loam+Ruins+Crypt.

Reasoning behind the Sower of Temptation is that opponents will likely board out their creature removal, thus Sower will shine. Anyway, you can always protect it if necessary.

The deck has been quite amazing to me, but I really think Landstill is a great choice right now no matter what version you play.
That said, I would love to hear some comments especially about the manabase. Is it optimal right now or do I need some tweaking?

Obfuscate Freely
05-01-2008, 09:07 PM
I am confused by the apparent trend of cutting Fact or Fiction. Whenever I play Landstill, it is invariably because I want to play with that card. Landstill is only viable because it has a powerful draw engine, and I think Fact is almost as important in this regard as Standstill itself.

But then, I haven't found it necessary to take up room in the deck with recursion engines, toolboxes, or other things that just serve to improve the deck's inevitability. My Landstill lists always look something like this:

//11
4x Brainstorm
4x Standstill
3x Fact or Fiction

//8
4x Force of Will
4x Counterspell

//6
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Mystic Enforcer

//10
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Pernicious Deed
2x Diabolic Edict

//25
3x Mishra's Factory
2x Nantuko Monastery

4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
4x Tropical Island
4x Tundra
3x Underground Sea
1x Scrubland

lol Mystic Enforcer, right? My favorite kind of board control is the kind that cracks for six. I also like to sideboard Control Magic in this deck.

Mental
05-02-2008, 12:27 AM
I really think Moment's Peace is is a solid choice. Considering the Top Eight list that placed well at Gen-Con with Crucible, how about one (or several) Constant Mists? It always seems to be played down on paper, but when that gets going (especially against aggro), there in't much they can do for more than a few turns. I mean, if you're going to maintain three open mana to flash it back anyways, you might as well leave yourself one more open until you find an answer.

The only downside (which is plausible) of Constant Mists is that it keeps you set back on your land count. That can be a problem if you're playing control, and especially with Shackles and Deed trying to pick up goods.

Fog in nature is a Time Walk of sorts, so I can see where Moment's Peace comes in handy. While it gets you to four lands with no combat damage in sight, it does however put you back on Brainstorm and other Instant capabilities until you get there because you need to keep that mana open. Then you'd have to wait a turn to cast Deed and another to (probably) use it.

Has that ever been an issue for you or not?

I got to agree with you about Moments Peace. That card is hot in this deck. However, Constant Mists isn't. The reason is is that Moments Peace is guaranteed to drag the game into the late game by providing you with additional land drops. However, Constant Mists, though it can create a lock, doesn't do that. And it Landstill, locks are generally win more. If it gets to the point were you have Constant Mists in hand and Crucible in play, and enough mana to replay mists every turn, you've probably won.

However, I'm not loving all the other random "Tech" that I suddenly see running around.
Intuition isn't good in this deck, people. Intuition for FoW is an AWFUL play. You're looking at this in the long game. If you IT for FoW, you have, most likely, ZERO Force of Wills left in your deck. Same goes for Deed and the like. Intuition is only good with Loam, but even then it seems you're devoting a lot of space to a toolbox. Don't make this enchantress.

Now, onto removal.
Let's count what you already, most likely, run:
3-4x Deed
2-3x Edict
0-3x EE

Since you already have a ridiculous amount of late game removal, I see very little reason not to play Innocent Blood over Vendetta, at least in a version that play EE.

Mystic Enforcer is an interesting wincon that deserves testing. I don't like Stalker because it's often smaller than Goyf and can't come down early to help you stabilize, which, for me, is the main role of Goyf in this deck.

EDIT:
What do you guys think of something like 2 Krosan Grip main? It doesn't seem dead in any MUs. It hits Humility/Deed/EE against Landstill, Balance and Blood Moon against Thresh, Vial against Goblins, Serenity/LED against Tendrils, and Blood Moon/3Sphere/Chalice against Dragon Stompy. It actually seems very strong.

Mantis
05-02-2008, 07:21 AM
How is Intuition for 3 FoW an awful play? That seriously makes NO SENSE at all. It's not the reason Intuition is in the deck at all, I was just illustrating a purpose it might fill. Actually, Intuition for 3 FoW might completely lock up a game where you are in control. Also, it is actually stupid not to make the play if your opponent is combo-ing out or something. Then it's just nice to have an additional 3 counters. It doesn't matter what is left in your library if it makes you win the game.

All that aside, it's actually a metagame call as I explained, as there is just a lot of Loam decks floating around here, and Intuition for Loam+Ruins+Crypt just locks up that game.

Mental
05-03-2008, 01:58 PM
How is Intuition for 3 FoW an awful play? That seriously makes NO SENSE at all. It's not the reason Intuition is in the deck at all, I was just illustrating a purpose it might fill. Actually, Intuition for 3 FoW might completely lock up a game where you are in control. Also, it is actually stupid not to make the play if your opponent is combo-ing out or something. Then it's just nice to have an additional 3 counters. It doesn't matter what is left in your library if it makes you win the game.

Because if even if your FoW resolves, you're still never going to draw another one in the entire game. 4 Counterspell Landstill isn't too strong, I hear.

Citrus-God
05-03-2008, 02:45 PM
Because if even if your FoW resolves, you're still never going to draw another one in the entire game. 4 Counterspell Landstill isn't too strong, I hear.

I'm going to have to back up Mental, because he's right. The point of Landstill is to draw into cards and prevent threats from being played. Now preventing is different from answering. There are times where you're going to have to let it resolve so that you can answer it later, but it is mostly recommended to prevent that threat before it deals more damage and applies more pressure towards you. Counters are there to prevent threats, which is why Standstill is so bloody amazing and which is why you can chain Standstills so effectively because what you're doing to the board is controlling it by preventing threats from doing harm towards you.

The Grim Reaper
05-03-2008, 05:09 PM
Why is it that everyone seems to be playing 3x Edict instead of 3x Explosives? Explosives answer almost anything, and you already have 4x STP to answer creatures!

Citrus-God
05-03-2008, 06:27 PM
Why is it that everyone seems to be playing 3x Edict instead of 3x Explosives? Explosives answer almost anything, and you already have 4x STP to answer creatures!

Not sure why, but if it's UGB, then you should be running Edict and EE. But in a deck like UWBG, you want to have EE because it can do more. I wasnt sure why Tacosnape cut the EEs for Edicts, but I'm pretty sure it was an alpha test build. I'm sure he'd leave it in if he keeps testing EE. Then again, I think he cut EE because it interferes with Jace.

The Grim Reaper
05-03-2008, 07:46 PM
Not sure why, but if it's UGB, then you should be running Edict and EE. But in a deck like UWBG, you want to have EE because it can do more. I wasnt sure why Tacosnape cut the EEs for Edicts, but I'm pretty sure it was an alpha test build. I'm sure he'd leave it in if he keeps testing EE. Then again, I think he cut EE because it interferes with Jace.

I think you are probably right about the alpha build part. I run both EE and Jace and in 60+ games played I've only once had EE interfere with Jace. Usually if you have Jace out and are drawing tons of cards, you don't need to blow EE anyway.

landstill101
05-03-2008, 08:07 PM
Why don't you guys try garruk wildspeaker instead of jace? Jace does help draw more cards but it doesn't win you the game(its win mech is way way way to slow to truly count) and it actually helps them draw cards too, so it doesn't help you control the game if you give them more chances to stablize. But if you use garruk instead, it gives you a great kill mech, a great blocking tool, and an overrun ability that really wins games. But the main reason you should choose garruk is because it helps against one of landstill's most horrible problems...land disruption. With garruk you can add 2 more mana to keep you mana screwed, add more power to factories to swing in, save your ass against choke, stax decks, anyone that runs ghostly prison, and it can save you a couple of turns getting attacked because many times ppl wont take out jace because their drawing cards too but with garruk they try to remove it faster than goyf.

My list also consists of goyf for a kill mech too, so the third ability is huge, but the first 2 abilities are more than enough to atleast give it a shot.

The Grim Reaper
05-03-2008, 10:35 PM
Why don't you guys try garruk wildspeaker instead of jace? Jace does help draw more cards but it doesn't win you the game(its win mech is way way way to slow to truly count) and it actually helps them draw cards too, so it doesn't help you control the game if you give them more chances to stablize. But if you use garruk instead, it gives you a great kill mech, a great blocking tool, and an overrun ability that really wins games. But the main reason you should choose garruk is because it helps against one of landstill's most horrible problems...land disruption. With garruk you can add 2 more mana to keep you mana screwed, add more power to factories to swing in, save your ass against choke, stax decks, anyone that runs ghostly prison, and it can save you a couple of turns getting attacked because many times ppl wont take out jace because their drawing cards too but with garruk they try to remove it faster than goyf.

My list also consists of goyf for a kill mech too, so the third ability is huge, but the first 2 abilities are more than enough to atleast give it a shot.

While I agree that Garruk is a good card, it doesn't actually stop land disruption. By the time you can pay his hefty 2GG casting cost, you should already be relatively stable. Most of the landstill-raping land disruption happens before you get to 4 lands, which makes Garruk kind of useless. Also, Jace pitches to FoW (a minor detail).

thefreakaccident
05-04-2008, 01:54 AM
I have been dabbling a little bit into LandStill Americana, mainly because of my meta... Here is a little list for your guys input on the matter:

lands//24 (been using snapes manabase... is strong enough)
4 mishra's factory
2 nantuku monastary
4 tundra
4 underground sea
4 tropical island
3 polluted delta
3 flooded strand

spells//36
4 force of will
4 counterspell
4 pernicious deed
4 brainstorm
4 standstill
3 fact or fiction
4 swords to plowshares
2 diabolic edict
2 spell snare
1 engineered explosives
1 extirpate
1 life from the loam


sideboard//
3 extirpate
4 meddling mage
4 engineered plague
2 krosan grip
2 yixlid jailer

You only need, in my opinion, 2 grips in the board due to the high amount of possible enchantment/artifact hate in the MD...

You do need the extra grave hate though, although it isn't much... the one ofs are there just to fill in some extra slots, EE being like a fifth copy of deed, LftL being extra copies of my manlands, and extirpate being a preumtive answer to any threat I have already encountered... the 2 spell snares are there for extra counterbackup, and helps against threshold/goyf.


I haven't needed any other wincons in the deck, and usually can put it away in just a couple of turns after acheiving control (not a very difficult task)...


I have been having a tough time against the ranimator MU (believe it or not this is an important MU here)... as they either a. have a SSS, which will not die, or b. have a sundering titan which cripples my board state.

I will like to have your replies on this issue as well.

Mantis
05-04-2008, 05:42 AM
I'm going to have to back up Mental, because he's right. The point of Landstill is to draw into cards and prevent threats from being played. Now preventing is different from answering. There are times where you're going to have to let it resolve so that you can answer it later, but it is mostly recommended to prevent that threat before it deals more damage and applies more pressure towards you. Counters are there to prevent threats, which is why Standstill is so bloody amazing and which is why you can chain Standstills so effectively because what you're doing to the board is controlling it by preventing threats from doing harm towards you.
... I do understand how Landstill works, and actually there is no need to chain Landstill. I can't think of a game I lost that involved me resolving a Standstill and my opponent not having any manlands and a clear board.

But we were talking about Intuition for 3 counters. Whilst this is not always (maybe even rarely) the play to make, situations do occur where it is in fact the one and only right play. For example if you are facing a Storm combo deck and they try to go off and you see a way to stop them mid combo by all means, go grab 3 FoW's or 3 Stifle with your Intuition instead of just losing that game (assuming you don't hold any counters). I don't understand how one could disagree with this logic. It's either you lose or you play on and assuming you want to win, you will have to make that play sometimes.

Citrus-God
05-04-2008, 07:30 AM
But we were talking about Intuition for 3 counters. Whilst this is not always (maybe even rarely) the play to make, situations do occur where it is in fact the one and only right play. For example if you are facing a Storm combo deck and they try to go off and you see a way to stop them mid combo by all means, go grab 3 FoW's or 3 Stifle with your Intuition instead of just losing that game (assuming you don't hold any counters). I don't understand how one could disagree with this logic. It's either you lose or you play on and assuming you want to win, you will have to make that play sometimes.
Everything you wanted Intuition to do the deck already does. For example, when playing Intuition for trip FoWs, you should be running Cunning Wish. When Intuition for trip Stifles, you should be running Cunning Wish. When Intuition for Ruins, EE, LftL, you should be casting Wish for Extirpate. I'm just saying, everything you want Cunning Wish to do, other cards can do better in it's place.

As for the Intuition for 3 FoWs, 3 Stifles thing, I agree, but there are better things to be used. Intuition is incredible at setting up a long term engine but requires a long term investment as well as extracting copies of desire cards from your deck.

Mantis
05-04-2008, 07:41 AM
Everything you wanted Intuition to do the deck already does. For example, when playing Intuition for trip FoWs, you should be running Cunning Wish. When Intuition for trip Stifles, you should be running Cunning Wish. When Intuition for Ruins, EE, LftL, you should be casting Wish for Extirpate. I'm just saying, everything you want Cunning Wish to do, other cards can do better in it's place.

As for the Intuition for 3 FoWs, 3 Stifles thing, I agree, but there are better things to be used. Intuition is incredible at setting up a long term engine but requires a long term investment as well as extracting copies of desire cards from your deck.
Glad we can at least agree on that :).
Cunning Wish and Intuition essentially do the same thing I guess, but Intuition doesn't butcher your SB and you can grab winconditions. That said, I think it's still a bit metagame dependant. Because of the many Loam and Threshold decks in my metagame Intuition just seems a lot stronger. Against Loam decks you can grab the Tormods Crypt pile (I prefer a recursive crypt over Extirpate against a deck that uses it's graveyard so extensively), and against ******** you can get nontargetted removal to deal with the Nimble Mongeese.

That said, I would most certainly run Cunning Wish if it wasn't for Intuition, and if my metagame shifts I might even do so.

EDIT: I should not forget about the main reason that pleads for Intuition, namely that it allows you to essentially run 4 Life from the Loam.

Citrus-God
05-04-2008, 01:53 PM
Glad we can at least agree on that :).
Cunning Wish and Intuition essentially do the same thing I guess, but Intuition doesn't butcher your SB and you can grab winconditions.

When you run Cunning Wish, all cards being ran can also be sided in post-board without much difficulty. I mean, your board is basically

4 Extirpates
2 Disenchant
1 FoF
5 Other random cards.

All of which can fit into the maindeck. Also, the main reason to run C-Wish is for Extirpate which are sided into the maindeck of some quantity. I havent never seen those being dead.


That said, I think it's still a bit metagame dependant. Because of the many Loam and Threshold decks in my metagame Intuition just seems a lot stronger. Against Loam decks you can grab the Tormods Crypt pile (I prefer a recursive crypt over Extirpate against a deck that uses it's graveyard so extensively), and against ******** you can get nontargetted removal to deal with the Nimble Mongeese.

Extirpate combats Loam and Threshold.


That said, I would most certainly run Cunning Wish if it wasn't for Intuition, and if my metagame shifts I might even do so.

I urge you to try Cunning Wish. It would make your games against your metagame so much more easier.


EDIT: I should not forget about the main reason that pleads for Intuition, namely that it allows you to essentially run 4 Life from the Loam.

Or you can run Cunning Wish and wish for Extirpate to get rid of Wasteland for good.

Mental
05-04-2008, 02:51 PM
Why would you want to play 4 LftL, anyways?

The problem with Intuition is it forces you to play cards that are situational and bad without Intuition to maximize IT fully, like Crypt/Cycling Land, and when you play Intuition for anything but LFTL/Academy Ruins/EE, you're butchering your Maindeck.

Also, the situation you described against Combo is ridiculous. If you're so worried about beating combo, don't play a 3 mana instant, play Chalice in your board and more Stifles main. Personally, if I was playing a combo deck like FT and my opponent Intuitioned for FoW against me, I wouldn't mind much. Landstill is so slow I would just build back up and win with only fear of CSpell.

Mantis
05-04-2008, 08:31 PM
@Mental:
I know, but against a competent FT player I feel like the matchup is pretty awful anyway. I usually use Intuition for 3x counter for situations where I am already mostly in control, just to ensure absolutely nothing can go wrong.
Also, Tormod's Crypt in the maindeck is not butchering my maindeck, seriously in Holland so many people run Loam decks. I can't really see any other cards that butcher my maindeck.

The reason I probably like Intuition so much is that it offers a lot of designing space and it really rewards creative play during a game. I know these arguments don't really make sense considering the competative nature of The Source, but it might act as a confounder (making me biased).
Yet, I strongly feel Intuition is not the wrong choice at all, but I have already gone to length about those arguments and I won't repeat myself.
Then again, by no means do I want to imply running with Cunning Wish is the wrong decision. I might make the switch some day but as for know I have really been happy Intuition, but I'm glad we can debate it's inclusion.

I would also like to bring up Vedalken Shackles. I've been testing that card as a 3-of and it's treated me well but nothing spectecular. If you can resolve it, it's basically an autowin versus Stompy variants, Deadguy and similar non-swarm aggro strategies. I feel like 3 copies might be too much and was more thinking of it as a 2-of. Is this card too situational or is it a reliable wincondition/disruption card?

Mental
05-05-2008, 12:27 AM
@Mental:
I know, but against a competent FT player I feel like the matchup is pretty awful anyway. I usually use Intuition for 3x counter for situations where I am already mostly in control, just to ensure absolutely nothing can go wrong.
Also, Tormod's Crypt in the maindeck is not butchering my maindeck, seriously in Holland so many people run Loam decks. I can't really see any other cards that butcher my maindeck.

The reason I probably like Intuition so much is that it offers a lot of designing space and it really rewards creative play during a game. I know these arguments don't really make sense considering the competative nature of The Source, but it might act as a confounder (making me biased).
Yet, I strongly feel Intuition is not the wrong choice at all, but I have already gone to length about those arguments and I won't repeat myself.
Then again, by no means do I want to imply running with Cunning Wish is the wrong decision. I might make the switch some day but as for know I have really been happy Intuition, but I'm glad we can debate it's inclusion.

I would also like to bring up Vedalken Shackles. I've been testing that card as a 3-of and it's treated me well but nothing spectecular. If you can resolve it, it's basically an autowin versus Stompy variants, Deadguy and similar non-swarm aggro strategies. I feel like 3 copies might be too much and was more thinking of it as a 2-of. Is this card too situational or is it a reliable wincondition/disruption card?

I've played Shackles in the past but came to the conclusion that it was TERRIBLE, like, ABSOLUTELY AWFUL against Threshold. IF Threshold/Goyf isn't big in your meta, by all means play it.

FT does roll over Landstill, as you only have 8 outs to Chant, and they have 4 Chants, 1 Pate, and 7 Tutors + Cantrips. If I was playing FT and you went for Triple Counterspell, I would probably just Mystical/Deathwish for Extirpate and take all of them. But, then again, to each his own. This discussion has run its course.

Tacosnape
05-05-2008, 12:40 AM
Not sure why, but if it's UGB, then you should be running Edict and EE. But in a deck like UWBG, you want to have EE because it can do more. I wasnt sure why Tacosnape cut the EEs for Edicts, but I'm pretty sure it was an alpha test build. I'm sure he'd leave it in if he keeps testing EE. Then again, I think he cut EE because it interferes with Jace.


I think you are probably right about the alpha build part. I run both EE and Jace and in 60+ games played I've only once had EE interfere with Jace. Usually if you have Jace out and are drawing tons of cards, you don't need to blow EE anyway.

I'd appreciate it if you both wouldn't assume you know what I'd do. My list up there is not an alpha test build by any means, and if I continued to test EE for another 800+ games, I'd still leave it out in favor of Diabolic Edict. But, then, clearly I'm the Landstill newbie in this thread, so carry on.

EE might do more, but it can't do everything Edict can, and it can't do anything with the efficiency of Edict. Edict is faster and keeps threats off of you. 4 Deeds, 1 C//P, and 8 Counters backed up by the deck's ridiculous draws should be enough to keep most artifacts/enchantments off of you, and a pair of Grips in the board can play cleanup in a pinch.

EDIT: Also, having your threat removal die to Stifle is an incredibly good way to lose to UGR Threshold. That "Oh, Landstill smashes Threshold anyway" thing only holds up to so much weakening before Threshold has a solid fight.

Citrus-God
05-05-2008, 03:35 AM
I'd appreciate it if you both wouldn't assume you know what I'd do. My list up there is not an alpha test build by any means, and if I continued to test EE for another 800+ games, I'd still leave it out in favor of Diabolic Edict. But, then, clearly I'm the Landstill newbie in this thread, so carry on.

I also said that maybe you didnt run EE because EE interferes with Jace. The point I'm getting at is that it's natural to assume,. Us humans, assume, because it lacks reasoning in our view, so we conjure up reasonable possibilities to why it might been like that. Be glad we didnt claim witch and demand the incineration of all Diabolic Edicts.


EE might do more, but it can't do everything Edict can, and it can't do anything with the efficiency of Edict. Edict is faster and keeps threats off of you. 4 Deeds, 1 C//P, and 8 Counters backed up by the deck's ridiculous draws should be enough to keep most artifacts/enchantments off of you, and a pair of Grips in the board can play cleanup in a pinch.'

But lacks a form of way to keep Enchantments/Artifacts clear early game. Like Counterbalance could give you headaches if you have Deed as your only answer because CB helps them in counter wars when you're trying to resolve Deed. At least EE offers additional outs and makes games for the Threshold player more difficult to handle.


EDIT: Also, having your threat removal die to Stifle is an incredibly good way to lose to UGR Threshold. That "Oh, Landstill smashes Threshold anyway" thing only holds up to so much weakening before Threshold has a solid fight.

Yes, but then you'll have a weaker Vial Goblin match-up pre-board then.

Tacosnape
05-05-2008, 04:20 PM
But lacks a form of way to keep Enchantments/Artifacts clear early game. Like Counterbalance could give you headaches if you have Deed as your only answer because CB helps them in counter wars when you're trying to resolve Deed. At least EE offers additional outs and makes games for the Threshold player more difficult to handle.

No, it leaves Deed, Force, Counterspell, and Punishment for 2 as my only outs to Counterbalance. And Krosan Grip postboard.



Yes, but then you'll have a weaker Vial Goblin match-up pre-board then.

You're kidding. Diabolic Edict is a godsend against Vial Goblins and is sixteen times better in that matchup than Engineered Explosives could ever dream of being. Pernicious Deed and C//P will do the sweep-away-1-drops thing you want EE to do, and Edict will pick off Warchief and Piledriver as they come out. Then you Stifle/Counter/Force the Matrons/Ringleaders so they can't get any card advantage ever and win.

Edict can handle Lackey when you're on the play. So can EE, in theory, but it does it with one less mana, and you don't have to commit to it as your first play by leading with land, EE for 1. The extra mana gives you the flexibility to Brainstorm into the removal you need, or Swords the Lackey instead, saving the Edict for a Driver, Chief, or second Lackey.

EDIT: FWIW, I'm 9-0 against Goblins with this deck in tournaments and 0-1 piloting Goblins against my own build. It's even better now that Goblins packs more dead cards in the form of Warren Weirding. Postboard is so good against Goblins unless they pack Blood Moon that it hardly matters. Blue Blasts + Plagues + Mages on Grip if they run green = facewreckery.

Citrus-God
05-05-2008, 05:47 PM
No, it leaves Deed, Force, Counterspell, and Punishment for 2 as my only outs to Counterbalance. And Krosan Grip postboard.

Counters are there to prevent CB from being resolved. They drop CB turn two, you cast C-Spell, they Daze. If you force, they'll force back. They have a better edge when casting cards like CB early game because they're designed to force crucial cards down early game. So FoW is better, C-Spell is alright, but Deeds and Punishment might be a little unreliable. Deeds are good answers to CB but requires some protection might even be CBed if against Moon Thresh and Crime can be CBed with Enforcer/Dragon.



You're kidding. Diabolic Edict is a godsend against Vial Goblins and is sixteen times better in that matchup than Engineered Explosives could ever dream of being. Pernicious Deed and C//P will do the sweep-away-1-drops thing you want EE to do, and Edict will pick off Warchief and Piledriver as they come out. Then you Stifle/Counter/Force the Matrons/Ringleaders so they can't get any card advantage ever and win.

I've had some great results with EE while playing UWG Landstill. The one reason they've won so many games for me is because it dismantles AEther Vial. I know Deed can do the same, while is amazing, but with EE, it can easily make this match-up much easier.


Edict can handle Lackey when you're on the play. So can EE, in theory, but it does it with one less mana, and you don't have to commit to it as your first play by leading with land, EE for 1. The extra mana gives you the flexibility to Brainstorm into the removal you need, or Swords the Lackey instead, saving the Edict for a Driver, Chief, or second Lackey.

Yes, but what are you going to do Turn 1 anyway? Not much against Goblins; just cast the EE for 1 and force the opponent to play around it. If he plays around it, that's one turn of nothingness on your opponent's turn. The more land drops you make, the more advantage and control you have over the board.

And Edict, imo, is terrible against Goblins because it just hits blanks like Matrons, Ringleaders, and Fanatics. You usually want removal to hit something important; like Piledrivers, Lackeys, or Chief. Edict could do that, but only post-Deed.


EDIT: FWIW, I'm 9-0 against Goblins with this deck in tournaments and 0-1 piloting Goblins against my own build. It's even better now that Goblins packs more dead cards in the form of Warren Weirding. Postboard is so good against Goblins unless they pack Blood Moon that it hardly matters. Blue Blasts + Plagues + Mages on Grip if they run green = facewreckery.

... wait... why would you side Mages in against Goblins? Isnt the point of Landstill to make half your opponent's deck dead against you, like removal? Even if you side in Meddling Mages as blockers, you would probably have to trade it with another Goblin a majority of the time.

I would agree with BEB and Plagues, but Mages are just random. Even here, I would much rather have Edict. And if they remove Plague, you still have BEB to fall back on and still maintain a strong game against Goblins. In fact, I dont recall a moment where I ever really needed E-Plague with 4c Landstill. Most games I played and won with was probably because of BEB and Stifle Post-Deed.

Tacosnape
05-05-2008, 07:11 PM
And Edict, imo, is terrible against Goblins because it just hits blanks like Matrons, Ringleaders, and Fanatics. You usually want removal to hit something important; like Piledrivers, Lackeys, or Chief. Edict could do that, but only post-Deed.

No, it doesn't. Because you didn't let Matron and/or Ringleader resolve. If you did, and you didn't Stifle the trigger (In which case Deed kills them), then you probably lose. Fanatic gets swept away by Deed or Punishment for 1.

What's more, Edict gets its best use either before Matron or Ringleader would be out (Hitting a Chief/Driver), or after a Deed sweeps the board (Hitting whatever they drop). You have to approach the match with the mentality of assigning cards in your deck to deal with cards in theirs. Edict stops Warchief/Piledriver, and to a lesser degree things like Lackey.


... wait... why would you side Mages in against Goblins? Isnt the point of Landstill to make half your opponent's deck dead against you, like removal? Even if you side in Meddling Mages as blockers, you would probably have to trade it with another Goblin a majority of the time.

If you run 3+ Plagues, then you side in Meddling Mage to stop Krosan Grip, because Goblins sided out all of its Gempalm Incinerators and Warren Weirdings against you. It's not a necessary tactic, but it's a highly effective one. Mage can also name guys who can still be a problem under a single Plague, like Ringleader and Warchief.

EDIT: Obviously, you don't do this if you didn't see a Taiga in the first game.

Citrus-God
05-05-2008, 09:01 PM
No, it doesn't. Because you didn't let Matron and/or Ringleader resolve. If you did, and you didn't Stifle the trigger (In which case Deed kills them), then you probably lose. Fanatic gets swept away by Deed or Punishment for 1.

They cast AEther Vial, you're trying to find a Deed. Only Stifle can stop them now.



What's more, Edict gets its best use either before Matron or Ringleader would be out (Hitting a Chief/Driver), or after a Deed sweeps the board (Hitting whatever they drop). You have to approach the match with the mentality of assigning cards in your deck to deal with cards in theirs. Edict stops Warchief/Piledriver, and to a lesser degree things like Lackey.

They usually wont be overextending. They're probably applying pressure with a couple Fanatics at this point.



If you run 3+ Plagues, then you side in Meddling Mage to stop Krosan Grip, because Goblins sided out all of its Gempalm Incinerators and Warren Weirdings against you. It's not a necessary tactic, but it's a highly effective one. Mage can also name guys who can still be a problem under a single Plague, like Ringleader and Warchief.

Even if they used a Grip to remove a Plague, you still have lots of plans to fall back on, like the Deed + Counters plan.

Tacosnape
05-05-2008, 10:55 PM
They cast AEther Vial, you're trying to find a Deed. Only Stifle can stop them now.

And yet, despite all the draw you have and all the draw Goblins doesn't have, you're suggesting that it's a more likely scenario that they can find an Aether Vial and you can't find a Deed, or have a Force, or your Crime//Punishment? More often than not, you're going to find more ways to stop Vial than they find Vials.


Even if they used a Grip to remove a Plague, you still have lots of plans to fall back on, like the Deed + Counters plan.

But why do that when you can just not lose the Plague to Grip?

Oh, and, Grip stops Deed for most of the game also, as it'll be infrequent that you get enough mana to resolve a Deed -and- sweep their board without passing priority.

Citrus-God
05-06-2008, 12:28 AM
And yet, despite all the draw you have and all the draw Goblins doesn't have, you're suggesting that it's a more likely scenario that they can find an Aether Vial and you can't find a Deed, or have a Force, or your Crime//Punishment? More often than not, you're going to find more ways to stop Vial than they find Vials.

Yes, but it's very hard to force down your draw when they have a Standstill. I could care less about forcing down a Standstill when all that is in play is a Mogg Fanatic.

Even if you had more outs, you would lose if you dont answer the Vial. I will admit, this build is infinitely better than the older builds when it comes to fighting Vial Goblins, but it



But why do that when you can just not lose the Plague to Grip?

Oh, and, Grip stops Deed for most of the game also, as it'll be infrequent that you get enough mana to resolve a Deed -and- sweep their board without passing priority.
Pwned on my part.

slaiter
05-06-2008, 12:18 PM
My new List:

//Lands
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Plains
4 Mirsha's Factory
2 Nantuko Monastery
2 Wasteland
//24

//Creatures
2 Eternal Dragon
//2

//Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Fact or Fiction
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Crucible of Worlds
//34

My meta-game is:
1º Goblins
2º ********
Others:
Deadguy
Belcher
Iggy Pop
MUC
UW Landstill

Suggestions?

thefreakaccident
05-06-2008, 12:35 PM
You only have 8 actual producents of blue within your deck (15 total if you include dragon & fetches)...

I don't think you need or want the dragon 'fetching' for plains in your deck, as this deck plays a lot more aggressively when it is trying to control the board... your mana-curve is not very high (well, not concentrated @ 4cc like UWb), and you therefore do not need the extra (in your case excess) amount of 'fetching'.

I would suggest just running 25 lands like this manabase (if you want wastes):

4 mishra's factory
2 nantuku monastary
3 wasteland
4 tundra
4 underground sea
4 tropical island
4 flooded strand

If you don't want wastes (don't think you need them):
24 lands

4 mishra's factory
2 monastary
4 tundra
4 underground sea
4 tropical island
6 fetches

landstill101
05-06-2008, 05:48 PM
You only have 8 actual producents of blue within your deck (15 total if you include dragon & fetches)...

I don't think you need or want the dragon 'fetching' for plains in your deck, as this deck plays a lot more aggressively when it is trying to control the board... your mana-curve is not very high (well, not concentrated @ 4cc like UWb), and you therefore do not need the extra (in your case excess) amount of 'fetching'.

I would suggest just running 25 lands like this manabase (if you want wastes):

4 mishra's factory
2 nantuku monastary
3 wasteland
4 tundra
4 underground sea
4 tropical island
4 flooded strand

If you don't want wastes (don't think you need them):
24 lands

4 mishra's factory
2 monastary
4 tundra
4 underground sea
4 tropical island
6 fetches



This really matters on the meta that your at. If you play at a place like mine wehre wastelands and sinkholes are huge, then you should run a manabase like this
4 mishra's factory
3 tundra
3 underground sea
3 tropical island
6 fetches
2 island
1 basic of the color of enchantment removal in side, usually forest for grip
(2 nantuko monastary if you run this in your version)


This really helps out specially if you add loam and such.
With the basics, it really helps our alot, being able to just fetch for a basic island sometimes really can win the game.

But if your meta is filled with alot of threshold and not alot of wastelands run his first list deffinitly.

slaiter
05-07-2008, 08:47 AM
If i don't want Wasteland:
-2 Cruicible
+2 ???

Citrus-God
05-07-2008, 09:35 AM
If i don't want Wasteland:
-2 Cruicible
+2 ???

Fetchlands, Basics, Academy Ruins, Tolaria West... things like that.

Personally, I'd run more basic lands with all the Blood Moon running around.

landstill101
05-07-2008, 12:18 PM
If i don't want Wasteland:
-2 Cruicible
+2 ???

Well it matters on your kill mech, if you have factory and monastary as your only kill mech then deffinitly you run the crucibles anywaze specially with the fetches and such. But if you run goyfs and such I would just run 1 loam in the place and give you an extra slot to play with.

mossivo1986
05-09-2008, 01:43 AM
Theres a new viable combo deck in town and it's name is painters stone.

If any of you haven't seen it it runs painter's servent and grindstone. Cheap effective, and it can really dig in "pun intended" for wins.

The other half of this post is that it's VERY versatile because it is a completely colorless combo. Which makes it more splashable in decks that are already consistent then say counter top splashes.

Although the four color decks generally have a good matchup against this combo, i would like to bring it in as a discussion and see if it might be a light splashable combo for landstill. We have the creature protection and the ability to protect a measly artifact like grindstone, so discuss.

DONT JUST DISCUSS THE NEGATIVES PLEASE.

Mental
05-09-2008, 01:45 AM
Theres a new viable combo deck in town and it's name is painters stone.

If any of you haven't seen it it runs painter's servent and grindstone. Cheap effective, and it can really dig in "pun intended" for wins.

The other half of this post is that it's VERY versatile because it is a completely colorless combo. Which makes it more splashable in decks that are already consistent then say counter top splashes.

Although the four color decks generally have a good matchup against this combo, i would like to bring it in as a discussion and see if it might be a light splashable combo for landstill. We have the creature protection and the ability to protect a measly artifact like grindstone, so discuss.

DONT JUST DISCUSS THE NEGATIVES PLEASE.

This combo is win more in Landstill because it's vulnerable to every kind of removal, so it's only viable once you already have complete control of the game, at which point you already win.

thefreakaccident
05-09-2008, 01:58 AM
I agree with mental, it is win more... not to say I don't like the idea, the idea is kinda cool; but it is unnecessary to say the least.

Tacosnape
05-09-2008, 01:02 PM
Theres a new viable combo deck in town and it's name is painters stone.

DONT JUST DISCUSS THE NEGATIVES PLEASE.

Are there positives?

Seriously, though. Not in this deck.

Michael Keller
05-09-2008, 01:53 PM
Are there positives?

Seriously, though. Not in this deck.

That all depends on who's playing it and what the supporting cast is. 4/5 of the lists in that forum are thrown together/garbage lists that people are just trying to get out there without even thinking a game-plan thoroughly through with absolutely no testing whatsoever.

That combo serves no place in this archetype, unless you're desperate to play it in the sideboard.

Citrus-God
05-10-2008, 03:43 AM
Are there positives?

Seriously, though. Not in this deck.

He's right. Bob the Belcher was pretty trashy... this deck isnt trashy.

Kainan
05-11-2008, 01:07 PM
I am curious about 4c Landstill matchups. Which ones are the bad matchups for this deck? :D

Bardo
05-11-2008, 05:49 PM
First off, sorry for the shitty opening post. It was one of the last things I did before going on vacation; then I had a bunch of work-related things that had me out of the office and away from the computer. I'll do some writing this week.

In the meantime, I've been working on the Ubg Landstill for more than a year and have tried a ton of variations. Here's where I left off.

"Vorosh"
U/g/b Landstill
by Bardo

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Sensei' Divining Top

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Counterbalance

3 Pernicious Deed
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Cunning Wish {flexible slot}

4 Tarmogoyf

4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Island
1 Breeding Pool

Sideboard:
4 Engineered Plague
3 Hydroblast
3 Extirpate
3 Stifle
2 Krosan Grip

It's a bit of a hybrid and has all sorts of solid match-ups.

And my 4c list which splashes white for StP and Meddling Mage in the board:

"Witch-Maw Landstill"
U/g/w/b Landstill
by Bardo

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Fact or Fiction

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
2 Stifle {flexible slot}

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Pernicious Deed

4 Tarmogoyf

4 Mishra's Factory
2 Nantuko Monastery
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
1 Island

Sideboard:
4 Engineered Plague
4 Meddling Mage
3 Extirpate
2 Krosan Grip
2 Mystic Enforcer

I think one of the Hatfield's mentioned Mystic Enforcer on the previous page. I had it on my shortlist when I wrote my last Landstill article, and dig him here. My lists, even my control decks, tend toward aggression, and Enforcer packs a lot of power here.

aTn
05-11-2008, 11:04 PM
I've been playing a list similar to Bardo's Vorosh build for a couple of months now. My record for the last five tournaments I attended (with about 20-30 players) is 3 first place finishes, 1 second place finish and one 7th place finish.

I really like the build but one match-up that is giving me hell is Astral Slide.dec. It might sound funny, but the recurrence (Witness, LftL), their manlands, the lock (with Witness, Slide, LftL, Orim's Chant), their draw engine that goes through Standstill (Cycle Lands) make it an annoying match-up. Do you guys have SB strategies/play and strategy suggestions to make this a better match-up ? Thanks in advance.

Mister Agent
05-12-2008, 01:44 AM
{Lists}


Seems like your current UGB landstill list looks more streamlined then the one I am playing in the mtgs tournament bardo. However I like running diabolic edicts in your UGB landstill since then you won't have to always blow up a deed at your own expense. Deed is too good of a card to waste on just one creature and this is relevant since decks like threshold can just ride on one creature ftw.

I also have been trying the hatfield's control magic tech in the UGB landstill board as well. In my testing control magic has been awesome against threshold and it's more flexible then vedalken shackles since you can pitch to force of will too. Definite props to the hatfields for that tech.

mossivo1986
05-12-2008, 01:47 AM
I am curious about 4c Landstill matchups. Which ones are the bad matchups for this deck? :D

generally speaking

dragon stompy is pretty bad. i'd say a solid 70-30 in their favor pre board, depending on your side it could go to 60-40, but its still unfavorable.

Moon thresh, because they play blood moon too? and its thresh? agh scariness

mono blue control if you dont resolve a deed is tough. They play back2basics and thats just fricken scary.



btw astral slide.dec or rifter as some people address it is not that great. It does get around standstill, but all that means is its one of the few matchups where you side out standstill and side in PATES and EP, plague naming soldiers, and pates grabbing wittness and chant = GG.

you could throw in meddling mage but if they play r/w rifter they will have additional ways to deal with creatures which = bad for you.

Mental
05-12-2008, 01:47 AM
{Lists}

How is Counterbalance in combination with 25 lands? Seems pretty bad without Top. Also, do you ever miss Academy Ruins? You are playing 3 EE.

Mister Agent
05-12-2008, 01:56 AM
How is Counterbalance in combination with 25 lands? Seems pretty bad without Top.

Well countertop is much better postboard since you can board out lands if you decide to stick with countertop. Against threshold I at least play with 23 lands postboard and the deck still ends up working out well in practice. I also board out even more lands against fetchland tendrils since FT can win at anytime.

Mental
05-12-2008, 01:59 AM
Well countertop is much better postboard since you can board out lands if you decide to stick with countertop. Against threshold I at least play with 23 lands postboard and the deck still ends up working out well in practice. I also board out even more lands against fetchland tendrils since FT can win at anytime.

This was directed at Bardo.

Citrus-God
05-12-2008, 04:03 AM
This was directed at Bardo.

And he just suggested those boarding plans because he's been playing Bardo's exact list for awhile now. It's not Bardo's response, but it is someone who has tested his deck extensively.

undone
05-12-2008, 11:01 AM
I have a question, i havent gone through each landstill forum but wouldnt gifts ungiven either as a wishboard target (what I have been testing) or as a MD replacement to FoF be a decent idea? I mean you could easly go

Gifts for

Life from the loam (1 of)
Eternal dragon (1 of)
mishras factory
wasteland

Or
Life from the loam(1 of)
EExplosives
mishras factory
acadamy ruins

All it would take would be like 2 card alterations or a 1 card different mana base. I could be wrong but it seems like gifts is what this deck wants card quality, not cards en mass. While it is a 2 for 1 its really a "go get 4 cards that win the game"

Also another question, has any one tested Rude awakening as a 1 of "I WIN NOW" card to prevent time from beating you?

Mantis
05-12-2008, 11:43 AM
Intuition is much better than Gifts Ungiven as it costs one less mana and you can also tutor for a counterspell or Deed.

For opinions on Intuition, look a page back as it is discussed in length. And while I still love it, the general consensus seems to be against Intuition.

undone
05-12-2008, 12:02 PM
Gifts does something intuition doesnt do though. it gives CA.

Also is RAwakaning worth it as a 1 of if you can wish for mystic tutor?

Bardo
05-12-2008, 02:35 PM
Do you guys have SB strategies/play and strategy suggestions to make this a better match-up ? Thanks in advance.

Well, you can't win them all. My suggestion isn't going to be anything earth-shattering: against Slide/Loam, you bring in Grips and Extirpates in place of Counterbalance, plus whatever's in the flex slots. Extirpate is a champ, mainly in removing LFTLs. Otherwise, you have a lot of ways to get their permanents into the bin (counters, Deed, EE, etc.)


However I like running diabolic edicts in your UGB landstill since then you won't have to always blow up a deed at your own expense. Deed is too good of a card to waste on just one creature and this is relevant since decks like threshold can just ride on one creature ftw.

Yeah, this has been one of the hardest things to settle in the design: the correct removal package. I like the 3/3 Deed/EE split, for some reasons that are easy to explain, some not; but every couple of weeks I bring in 2-3 Smothers/Edicts, and then remove them when I need the room and feel the removal is more of a luxury than necessity. I've been up in the air on the whole issue for over a year, so I can certainly see squeezing a few in. In my build, I still have that random Cunning Wish, that's the first slot I'd fill with a Diabolic Edict. But running a single Edict seems painfully random, and there are no other slots I feel like freeing up (maybe a land, maybe not).

As for reluctance to Deed away a single guy, if it's the right play for that stage of the game, then that's what you have to do. With a card that powerful and expensive, it's an easy card to want to get greedy with, but that often leads to incorrect plays. I've lost more than a couple of games against Affinity, for instance, when the right move is to drop and pop Deed for 0 on turn 3 to remove their lands, but have held off an extra turn to kill that random Vial or Disciple, etc. and lost. Sometimes, the weaker-seeming play is the correct one, so I wouldn't be too shy about killing a single guy with Deed if your strategy supports that play.


I also have been trying the hatfield's control magic tech in the UGB landstill board as well. In my testing control magic has been awesome against threshold and it's more flexible then vedalken shackles since you can pitch to force of will too. Definite props to the hatfields for that tech.

You have enough blue spells that the ability to pitch Control Magic over Vedalken Shackles shouldn't weigh that heavily. Shackles is straight up a more powerful spell in Landstill, though Control Magic has its perks too.


How is Counterbalance in combination with 25 lands?

My CB list should have 24 land; the 4c-non-CB list has 25.

Seems pretty bad without Top.

You'd be surprised. Statistically, I'm not sure how and what would be different if you're relying on blind reveals with CB and 17-23 lands, but you hit enough of the important spells at 24 that the CB/Top package still feels worth the slots.


Also, do you ever miss Academy Ruins? You are playing 3 EE.

I've messed with every funky land that struck my fancy (Ruins, Maze of Ith, Tabernacle, Treetop Village, Tolaria West, Faerie Conclave) and can safely say you don't you need them. They're cool, but recurring EE is overrated, extremely intensive on your mana and rarely relevant. I could see it being more of use in the control mirror, if you were recurring Crucible, Mindslaver or Shackles for inevitability, otherwise Ruins/EE is one of those combos that looks awesome on paper, but is rarely meaningful. I'd rather just have land that produces colored mana or a Wasteland.


Well countertop is much better postboard since you can board out lands if you decide to stick with countertop. Against threshold I at least play with 23 lands postboard and the deck still ends up working out well in practice. I also board out even more lands against fetchland tendrils since FT can win at anytime.

FT is one of the few decks I would board out a land against; otherwise, I rarely want to reduce my chances of have four land on the board on turn 4.


Gifts does something intuition doesnt do though. it gives CA.

Also is RAwakaning worth it as a 1 of if you can wish for mystic tutor?

Re: Gifts. Sure, it might get you +1 CA, but at what cost? It costs four mana, doesn't win the game and most versions of Landstill aren't designed to take advantage of Gifts. It would take an overhaul of the deck to make it worthwhile.

As for Rude Awakening, dunno. Seems cute, but I don't see it helping you win your rougher match-ups.

Mister Agent
05-12-2008, 05:02 PM
Well, you can't win them all. My suggestion isn't going to be anything earth-shattering: against Slide/Loam, you bring in Grips and Extirpates in place of Counterbalance, plus whatever's in the flex slots. Extirpate is a champ, mainly in removing LFTLs. Otherwise, you have a lot of ways to get their permanents into the bin (counters, Deed, EE, etc.)

I am with bardo on this one considering no matter how hard you test your still going to have good and bad matchups.




Yeah, this has been one of the hardest things to settle in the design: the correct removal package. I like the 3/3 Deed/EE split, for some reasons that are easy to explain, some not; but every couple of weeks I bring in 2-3 Smothers/Edicts, and then remove them when I need the room and feel the removal is more of a luxury than necessity. I've been up in the air on the whole issue for over a year, so I can certainly see squeezing a few in. In my build, I still have that random Cunning Wish, that's the first slot I'd fill with a Diabolic Edict. But running a single Edict seems painfully random, and there are no other slots I feel like freeing up (maybe a land, maybe not).

The 3 deed, 3 smother/edict, 3 EE config. can be a versatile removal package since you can cover alot of ground. However the 3 deed, 3 ee, 2 vedalken shackles setup can work if your a compotent player. In other words, the less options you have the more brain work you have to consider if you want to win.



As for reluctance to Deed away a single guy, if it's the right play for that stage of the game, then that's what you have to do. With a card that powerful and expensive, it's an easy card to want to get greedy with, but that often leads to incorrect plays. I've lost more than a couple of games against Affinity, for instance, when the right move is to drop and pop Deed for 0 on turn 3 to remove their lands, but have held off an extra turn to kill that random Vial or Disciple, etc. and lost. Sometimes, the weaker-seeming play is the correct one, so I wouldn't be too shy about killing a single guy with Deed if your strategy supports that play.

I agree with you and you make relevant points.



You have enough blue spells that the ability to pitch Control Magic over Vedalken Shackles shouldn't weigh that heavily. Shackles is straight up a more powerful spell in Landstill, though Control Magic has its perks too.

Both shackles and control magic have their arguements. In my opinion, shackles is much better for your deck then control magic considering you run less creature control options. I run more removal in UGB landstill so that is why I would take control magic over shackles.



You'd be surprised. Statistically, I'm not sure how and what would be different if you're relying on blind reveals with CB and 17-23 lands, but you hit enough of the important spells at 24 that the CB/Top package still feels worth the slots.

Besides you run like 8 fetchlands so your bound to obtain a more relevant topdeck CB then running less then the X number of fetches. You also don't always have to utilize countertop religiously either instead you get to choose which strategy is more efficient at the time.



FT is one of the few decks I would board out a land against; otherwise, I rarely want to reduce my chances of have four land on the board on turn 4.

Yep, you can actually transform UGB landstill into UGB threshold against combo. Your deck is far from being a one dimensional deck.




Re: Gifts. Sure, it might get you +1 CA, but at what cost? It costs four mana, doesn't win the game and most versions of Landstill aren't designed to take advantage of Gifts. It would take an overhaul of the deck to make it worthwhile.


I'd say your much better off running fact or fiction instead if your going that route. Although Jace seems like a worthy inclusion since it can be quite powerful with SDT in UGB landstill.

Nihil Credo
05-13-2008, 11:03 AM
Well, you can't win them all. My suggestion isn't going to be anything earth-shattering: against Slide/Loam, you bring in Grips and Extirpates in place of Counterbalance, plus whatever's in the flex slots. Extirpate is a champ, mainly in removing LFTLs. Otherwise, you have a lot of ways to get their permanents into the bin (counters, Deed, EE, etc.)
Obviously there's a lot of variation in those lists, but as a general rule I'd say you want to keep Counterbalance in against Loam, since alongside Extirpate it's your best plan against their namesake, which can really ruin your day alone (both by drawing three cards per turn, and by recurring Wasteland on your greedy manabase).

BreathWeapon
05-13-2008, 11:22 AM
What do you guys think of Bitter Blossom? It's a game ending threat under a Standstill and it should be able to hold off a Tarmogoyf or Goblin(s) for awhile. It's anti-synergistic with Pernicious Deed, but it's more of a tempo card that doubles as a finisher or even just an "Oops, I win" card any way. I definitely think it has some potential, unlike Garruk, Hoofprints and DoJ it actually comes down fast enough to be relevant against Goblins

Omega
05-13-2008, 11:55 AM
The best removal in Landstill is by far Pernicious Deed. Not only deed destroys Bitterblossom, but it also destroys the Faeries. This, alone, should be a sufficient argument to not play Bitterblossom.

However, i do agree that Bitterblossom is a good card and might fit into this deck (making my statement wrong, but that is of no importance). You just have to test it, but personnally, i am not convinced.

I think Tarmogoyf (if not already in your list) combined with Tombstalker should be enough to hold back opponents threats. This, coupled with your deeds, should be enough, i believe

Robert

Bardo
05-13-2008, 02:06 PM
Obviously there's a lot of variation in those lists, but as a general rule I'd say you want to keep Counterbalance in against Loam, since alongside Extirpate it's your best plan against their namesake, which can really ruin your day alone (both by drawing three cards per turn, and by recurring Wasteland on your greedy manabase).

It just seems like LFTL is the only thing you're likely to hit with Counterbalance and you really want the slots for Extirpate. Maybe though, it isn't a match-up that I've test, to be honest.

RE: Bitterblossom. Yeah, I was discussing this with TopGun a couple of weeks ago. Deed by damned, I still intend to test it out.

Re: Tombstalker. He's been in and out of my list for months, but the BB in the cost can be surprisingly difficult to hit when you really want to. Actually, double anything (WW, GG, BB) that isn't blue (and sometimes even then) can be prohibitive with the numer of colorless sources Landstill runs. And not being able to play your cards pretty much sucks.

landstill101
05-13-2008, 03:59 PM
Before we go back to the whole annoying gifts discussion again(which last time we dismissed the idea because it doesn't work in landstill, I hope this isn't the same person who brought it up last time)..... Does anyone see any hopeful prospects in the new set that could be new additions to landstill, many things I saw were not helpful but I'm just one person, maybe someone else has found something that might work.

Osse
05-13-2008, 04:04 PM
The more you guys explore the BalanceTop route, the less this becomes Landstill. The fact is that you're moving towards Chase Rare Control (not a bad thing) or something along those lines. There isn't any real reason to run Standstill along side SDT, Brainstorm and possibly Confidant (which is better than SDT and Standstill.

Before you can choose a kill condition you have to know what it can handle. Shroud doesnt do anything really. I'm liking stuff like Tog, Goyf, Stalker and Blossom in those slots, and strongly suggest 3-4 Vedalken Shackles.

landstill101
05-13-2008, 04:30 PM
The more you guys explore the BalanceTop route, the less this becomes Landstill. The fact is that you're moving towards Chase Rare Control (not a bad thing) or something along those lines. There isn't any real reason to run Standstill along side SDT, Brainstorm and possibly Confidant (which is better than SDT and Standstill.

Before you can choose a kill condition you have to know what it can handle. Shroud doesnt do anything really. I'm liking stuff like Tog, Goyf, Stalker and Blossom in those slots, and strongly suggest 3-4 Vedalken Shackles.

In my testing from playing 3 different decks very intensivly(landstill, red thresh, rock), I have found that landstill should stay completly away from countertop, with countertop, you pretty much take out deed and explosives, your 2 best board sweepers. it also makes it harder for you because landstill runs more land than anyother deck, soo it makes it harder to find the right converted mana cost. Also unless you play it after turn 4-5 you really have no way to protect it unlike thresh which has daze and such. Landstill just doesn't have the right mana cost curve to play the card plain and simple, if you want to play countertop, play thresh.

Also, whats with the talk of throwing in tons of creatures, Yea I think landstill needs addition of goyf or stalker, but not both, usually landstill sticks with 6-8 creatures in factory and such, going more than that just pulls away from the point of landstill. Landstill shouldn't need a bunch of creatures to win, it has sooooo many answers to everything that a lone mishra's factory is enough alot of the times.

And the whole bitterblossom talk, Anything that interferes with deed, should not be in 4c landstill, those cards are for the non deed versions.

Bardo
05-13-2008, 05:47 PM
Meh. I've played the deck with and without Top, Deed, EE and Counterbalance and think you're selling Top/CB short. I agree that the approach to the deck and certain strategies shift, but it should not be discarded out of hand. In actuality, nuking your CB with Deed or EE does not occur with the regularity that would tell you to keep the two cards out of the same deck. It's a fringe occurrence and one that is avoided by playing the deck properly.


Landstill just doesn't have the right mana cost curve to play the card plain and simple, if you want to play countertop, play thresh.

Actually, CB/Top Landstill, such as the Vorosh deck listed above, pounds the hell out of Thresh.


Landstill shouldn't need a bunch of creatures to win, it has sooooo many answers to everything that a lone mishra's factory is enough alot of the times.

A single Factory is also glacially slow at winning the game and gives your opponent a lot of time to turn things around and gain advantage.


And the whole bitterblossom talk, Anything that interferes with deed, should not be in 4c landstill, those cards are for the non deed versions.

Again, maybe Bitterblossom is crap here, but I think it's worth exploring. By your logic, no deck should run both Deed and other non-land permanents. A survey of the great decks of MtG's past indicate this is not the case. If a certain strategy works and helps improves your weak and already favorable match-ups, a closed-minded approach to powerful cards is not the best position.

Mister Agent
05-13-2008, 06:48 PM
Well the reason why I like Countertop in landstill is because it can act as a buffer in quite a few matchups. I see countertop as a cushion more then a win-more utility combo in landstill.

As for the deed vs non-land permanent debate I'd say it highly depends on how you play the deck really. I mean you don't always need to play CB and then deed just because you can. Your just much better off playing Bardo's deck by ear.

landstill101
05-13-2008, 07:56 PM
Again, maybe Bitterblossom is crap here, but I think it's worth exploring. By your logic, no deck should run both Deed and other non-land permanents. A survey of the great decks of MtG's past indicate this is not the case. If a certain strategy works and helps improves your weak and already favorable match-ups, a closed-minded approach to powerful cards is not the best position.


Your not getting at the point of what I am saying, Bitterblossom is easily blown up by your own deed and explosives because of the cost, it makes you take damage for a 1/1 that is easily removed by the deed and it only blocks 1 thing which doesn't help in any matchup really other than possibly thresh if done right. You have to look at the card from a certain perspecitive, landstill has some problems with goblins if you don't draw the right stuff, which bitterblossom is horrible against goblins and by putting this in the deck, it takes away the chances of drawing the things you need. Next it makes you take damage, which alot of times against any aggro deck unless you get a god hand, you will have to take some damage over a couple of turns before you can stabalize, which in my opinion taking more damage would hurt the deck.

When I said that it wasn't right for landstill I ment that this card is not right for landstill, not any nonland permanent(which this isnt true either because deed can't hit planeswalkers.) Im saying that it is too much of a contradictory to deed and explosives for it to work, landstill doesn't need blockers that just die and don't kill anything of theirs,(this is why mutavault never hit the deck even thou everyone boasted that it would) landstill works because it can wipe the board, swords their main guy from the game, counter the things in the way and gain card advantage. by bring blockers, all your doing is blocking 1 tarmogoyf, which you token can easily be burned, explosived, and really any little thing and their goyf will still be there. I Myself play a landstill with goyf, deed and explosives main, and any skilled landstill player knows how to play around it soo you don't blow up too much of your own shit, but is it really worth it to open 3 slots for a card that doesn't have the ability that soo many other cards can do in the spot? What I'm saying really is, in what situation would you like a bitterblossom over anything else in the deck? If your looking for some kind of kill mech you should try garruk, overall its a better card.

Mister Agent
05-13-2008, 08:30 PM
Actually Bitterblossom can be quite good against goblins even as a defensive specialist. Considering bb can buy you time until your able to stabilize with engineered plague or some other relevant utility. Also bitterblossom can be stellar in the mid to late game as well since it can serve like a psuodo-doj.

As for Garruck, he seems alright in UGB landstill since he can be a good finisher in the late stages. However, Garruck doesn't serve well under counterbalance and the cost is double green which can be a problem. I'd rather run more removal and/or card draw instead and Garruck can not provide either.

landstill101
05-13-2008, 09:48 PM
Actually Bitterblossom can be quite good against goblins even as a defensive specialist. Considering bb can buy you time until your able to stabilize with engineered plague or some other relevant utility. Also bitterblossom can be stellar in the mid to late game as well since it can serve like a psuodo-doj.

As for Garruck, he seems alright in UGB landstill since he can be a good finisher in the late stages. However, Garruck doesn't serve well under counterbalance and the cost is double green which can be a problem. I'd rather run more removal and/or card draw instead and Garruck can not provide either.

By your reasoning, bittberblossom is worse than garruk, it doesn't draw cards, it doesnt remove anything and atleast garruk can untap lands to help with things and can produce blockers that can actually kill something, and has a finisher which helps.

Mister Agent
05-13-2008, 10:43 PM
By your reasoning, bittberblossom is worse than garruk, it doesn't draw cards, it doesnt remove anything and atleast garruk can untap lands to help with things and can produce blockers that can actually kill something, and has a finisher which helps.

Your misinterpreting on what I said because I did not directly compare the two threats. However, Bitterblossom seems like it would fit better since it has a relevant cost for counterbalance and it's mana consumption is less stressful. I'd say bitterblossom would fit the aggro-control strategy much better as well. But only testing will tell if bitterblossom is worth the inclusion.

Mental
05-14-2008, 02:12 AM
What do you guys think of Bitter Blossom? It's a game ending threat under a Standstill and it should be able to hold off a Tarmogoyf or Goblin(s) for awhile. It's anti-synergistic with Pernicious Deed, but it's more of a tempo card that doubles as a finisher or even just an "Oops, I win" card any way. I definitely think it has some potential, unlike Garruk, Hoofprints and DoJ it actually comes down fast enough to be relevant against Goblins

The problem with saying that "it's good under standstill" is that as they're going to break Standstill ASAP anyways (most of the time, at least), that's irrelevant. The only cards that need to be good under standstill here are Mishra's Factories, so that they can't just wait until the game comes to a draw.

However, it could still be a decent bomb in this deck, and I've certainly considered, but not tested, playing it. It seems like a bomb against Aggro and Thresh, but it dies to Grip, which sucks.

Not sure that there's room for it.

landstill101
05-14-2008, 01:37 PM
Your misinterpreting on what I said because I did not directly compare the two threats. However, Bitterblossom seems like it would fit better since it has a relevant cost for counterbalance and it's mana consumption is less stressful. I'd say bitterblossom would fit the aggro-control strategy much better as well. But only testing will tell if bitterblossom is worth the inclusion.

Can you give me a situation where bitterblossom would be better than say a swords, deed, counterspell, tarmogoyf? there is not a single situation where bitterblossom would be better than these. All your doing by adding this card is lowering the chances of drawing a 3 times better card. This talk kinda reminds me of the whole mutavault talk, how some people were predicting the next second coming with this card and that it was gonna be a stable in this deck, then it actually came out and nothing happened, why? because there we just better cards than it, there we better manlands, better creatures to choose from overall, and it was just a really crappy mishra's factory that died to almost everything. Bitterblossom is one of those cards that might work in an extended version of landstill but never in legacy because there are more powerful cards to choose from.

Mister Agent
05-14-2008, 01:45 PM
Can you give me a situation where bitterblossom would be better than say a swords, deed, counterspell, tarmogoyf? there is not a single situation where bitterblossom would be better than these. All your doing by adding this card is lowering the chances of drawing a 3 times better card. This talk kinda reminds me of the whole mutavault talk, how some people were predicting the next second coming with this card and that it was gonna be a stable in this deck, then it actually came out and nothing happened, why? because there we just better cards than it, there we better manlands, better creatures to choose from overall, and it was just a really crappy mishra's factory that died to almost everything. Bitterblossom is one of those cards that might work in an extended version of landstill but never in legacy because there are more powerful cards to choose from.

Bardo's deck already runs counterspell, deed, and tarmogoyf so comparing bitterblossom to those cards would be silly. Well of course you can run another color such as white just to add stp, however, then the deck would be 4c landstill instead of Vorosh landstill. However, operating a more manageable manabase is a substantial reason to take 3c landstill over 4c. Also, again I never compared bitterblossom to any of those cards you mentioned. I was just saying how BB could work in the aggro-control strategy of bardo's deck.

As for mutavualt I don't really like it in Bardo's deck for a couple of reasons:

1. Mishra's factory is better by itself then mutavualt is any day of the week.

2. Your actually stretching the manabase greater with mutavault since vault just adds generic mana.

3. I have been playing bardo's deck for awhile and mishra's factory is enough regarding to standstill. Especially since his deck also plays tarmogoyf.

By the way, I have been testing Alix's 4c landstill build and it's actually fun to play and I think the deck is quite strong. I would also definitely recommend it in a tournament however that's my opinion.

Here is the list:

4c Hatfield Landstill
By Kevin Liu

// Lands
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [A] Tropical Island
4 [B] Tundra
4 [U] Underground Sea
2 [JU] Nantuko Monastery
1 [A] Savannah
1 [B] Scrubland

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Standstill
3 [IN] Fact or Fiction
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [7E] Counterspell
4 [A] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
2 [TE] Diabolic Edict
2 [10E] Crucible of Worlds

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [OD] Mystic Enforcer
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [7E] Engineered Plague

I kind of changed everything around in the deck as well as I added a sideboard but it's for my meta. However, so far the deck's consistency is pretty solid and the deck has a clock for combo matchups. Although I am thinking about taking out crucibles entirely and moving Mystic Enforcer back to the main and sticking two control magic in the board.

landstill101
05-14-2008, 02:42 PM
Bardo's deck already runs counterspell, deed, and tarmogoyf so comparing bitterblossom to those cards would be silly. Well of course you can run another color such as white just to add stp however then the deck would be 4c landstill instead of Vorosh landstill. However, operating a more manageable manabase is a substantial reason to take 3c landstill over 4c. Also, again I never compared bitterblossom to any of those cards you mentioned. I was just saying how BB could work in the aggro-control strategy of bardo's deck.

As for mutavualt I don't really like it in Bardo's deck for a couple of reasons:

1. Mishra's factory is better by itself then mutavualt is any day of the week.

2. Your actually stretching the manabase greater with mutavault since vault just adds generic mana.

3. I have been playing bardo's deck for awhile and mishra's factory is enough regarding to standstill. Especially since his deck also plays tarmogoyf.

Just to clarify, I completly agree with mutavault, but I feel we are on completly different pages with bitterblossom, what would you take out to put in bitterblossom, so I can compare better to what I mean since your thinking something completly different than me, I just feel that bitterblossom is just a less of a card than the things in its place, but since I don't see a list thats its in, I'm not sure what your taking out for it.

Mental
05-15-2008, 12:24 AM
Just to clarify, I completly agree with mutavault, but I feel we are on completly different pages with bitterblossom, what would you take out to put in bitterblossom, so I can compare better to what I mean since your thinking something completly different than me, I just feel that bitterblossom is just a less of a card than the things in its place, but since I don't see a list thats its in, I'm not sure what your taking out for it.

Bitterblossom creates a constant stream of blockers, effectively nullifying Nimble Mongoose and destroying Thresh's clock. Late game, it doubles as a wincon. The fact that you can stall for a very long time could be powerful when trying to stabilize early game.

Does that work for you?

from Cairo
05-15-2008, 02:14 AM
Just to clarify, I completly agree with mutavault, but I feel we are on completly different pages with bitterblossom, what would you take out to put in bitterblossom, so I can compare better to what I mean since your thinking something completly different than me, I just feel that bitterblossom is just a less of a card than the things in its place, but since I don't see a list thats its in, I'm not sure what your taking out for it.Bitterblossom creates a constant stream of blockers, effectively nullifying Nimble Mongoose and destroying Thresh's clock. Late game, it doubles as a wincon. The fact that you can stall for a very long time could be powerful when trying to stabilize early game.

Does that work for you?

Probably not, since it completely ignores the question.

BreathWeapon
05-15-2008, 11:15 AM
Bitterblossom is a game ending threat if it goes unanswered, so it has the multi functional role of turning a Tarmogoyf, Werebear or Nimble Mongoose into a 1 power dork, trading with Goblins or just overwhelming the opponent and winning in the air, mass and spot removal can't do that.

It's also insane with Humility and Enlightened Tutor.

So how is X better than Y is sort of a silly question, the cards don't even compare, and the slots aren't that solid.

undone
05-15-2008, 11:58 AM
Can any one state the advantages of Ubg landstill over UWbg landstill with these lists being the lists I would use

UWgb landstill

1 Eternal dragon

4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
3 Cunning wish
4 force of will
2 stifle
4 swords to plowshares

2 decree of justice
1 life from the loam

2 humility
3 Deed
4 standstill

2 EE

4 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
1 island
1 plains
4 factory
1 N monistary
3 tundra
2 tropical island
2 underground sea
2 wasteland
1 savahnna
1 scrubland

SB
4 Meddling mage
4 Extirpate
3 E Plague
1 Pulse of the feilds
1 Hydroblast
1 slaughter pact
1 Dismantelin blow

UBG landstill

4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
4 Force of will
2 stifle
2 smother

3 Counterbalance
3 P Deed
4 Standstill

3 EE
3 Sensei's top

1 Acadamy ruins
4 flooded strand
4 polluted delta
3 island
4 mishras factory
1 swamp
4 tropical island
3 underground sea

SB
4 extirpate
3 Tormads crypt
2 stifle
4 E plague
2 Krosan grip

Is the only advantage over the 4 C version the mana base? or are the extra sweepers worth it(i have 80% of legacy staples so money isnt the issue) I want to play this deck and have both built in the gauntlet I was just curious if any one could explain what matchups other then combo Meddling mage comes in against? I believe there is about 2 matchups I bring him in against but other people say vs alot bring him in. (i think vs storm combo and ichorid. but my friends say he comes in vs things like threshold nameing tarmogoyf or naming daze. As well as vs dragon stompy nameing slogger or RPD. Are they right?

Mantis
05-15-2008, 12:05 PM
Can any one state the advantages of Ubg landstill over UWbg landstill with these lists being the lists I would use

...decklists...

Is the only advantage over the 4 C version the mana base? or are the extra sweepers worth it
'The only advantage' 4 colors has over 5 colors is also the manabase, so go figure out if you would rather have a more powerful cards in your deck or be more often able to cast all of your spells. Taking into account the metagame is also pretty important in this decision, if it's full of Wastelands and Sinkholes then perhaps 3C might be better than 4C and vice versa.

Bardo
05-15-2008, 02:06 PM
Is the only advantage over the 4 C version the mana base?

The mana-base is only the symptom. The real differences I would see between 3 and 4 and 5-c decks is the balance between options, power and consistency.

And the importance of consistency is one of the most subtle and important aspects of deck construction and tournament performance. Threshold, for instance, looks underpowered in comparison to more "pure-power" decks, but its success in this format has so much to do with its superb consistency: the ability of the deck to play its cards when it needs to and reproduce its core strategy game after game.

That aside, I've reworked the mana on my 3c list and have been playing the following for the past few days:

Witch-Maw Landstill
4-color Control

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Fact or Fiction
1 Life from the Loam

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Crime // Punishment

4 Tarmogoyf

4 Mishra’s Factory
2 Nantuko Monastery
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
1 Island

Sideboard
4 Engineered Plague
4 Meddling Mage
3 Hydroblast
2 Krosan Grip
2 Extirpate

Those 8 fetchlands are key in keeping things running.


Just to clarify, I completly agree with mutavault, but I feel we are on completly different pages with bitterblossom, what would you take out to put in bitterblossom,

Depends on the list. In my 3c list, I would go -2 Diabolic Edict, +2 Bitterblossom; since they're vaguely similar (Bitterblossom tokens are like removal) and they have an identical mana cost.

Again, I'm not saying the card is awesome, or even playable in the deck, just that it deserved some testing time and it seemed like you and were dismissing the card as though someone suggested running Takklemaggot in Landstill. :)

landstill101
05-15-2008, 02:20 PM
Bitterblossom creates a constant stream of blockers, effectively nullifying Nimble Mongoose and destroying Thresh's clock. Late game, it doubles as a wincon. The fact that you can stall for a very long time could be powerful when trying to stabilize early game.

Does that work for you?

Well, no it doesn't answer the question, it seems like your trying to avoid and work around the question like a politician, your answer doesn't explain anything other than the rambling that you've been doing already.



Bitterblossom is a game ending threat if it goes unanswered, so it has the multi functional role of turning a Tarmogoyf, Werebear or Nimble Mongoose into a 1 power dork, trading with Goblins or just overwhelming the opponent and winning in the air, mass and spot removal can't do that.

It's also insane with Humility and Enlightened Tutor.

So how is X better than Y is sort of a silly question, the cards don't even compare, and the slots aren't that solid.

Pls qoute something or tell what your talking about with x and y because you seem to either be about 20 posts behind or your not talking the same thing. And to answer your post, a tarmogoyf not answered wins the game, a single goblin token not answered wins you the game, an opposing confidant that has bad luck and hits high costing stuff can win you the game too, pls explain better, your answer doesn't have any detail. Bitterblossom cant block more than 1 thing which doesnt help against most matchups.



Can any one state the advantages of Ubg landstill over UWbg landstill with these lists being the lists I would use

UWgb landstill

1 Eternal dragon

4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
3 Cunning wish
4 force of will
2 stifle
4 swords to plowshares

2 decree of justice
1 life from the loam

2 humility
3 Deed
4 standstill

2 EE

4 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
1 island
1 plains
4 factory
1 N monistary
3 tundra
2 tropical island
2 underground sea
2 wasteland
1 savahnna
1 scrubland

SB
4 Meddling mage
4 Extirpate
3 E Plague
1 Pulse of the feilds
1 Hydroblast
1 slaughter pact
1 Dismantelin blow

UBG landstill

4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
4 Force of will
2 stifle
2 smother

3 Counterbalance
3 P Deed
4 Standstill

3 EE
3 Sensei's top

1 Acadamy ruins
4 flooded strand
4 polluted delta
3 island
4 mishras factory
1 swamp
4 tropical island
3 underground sea

SB
4 extirpate
3 Tormads crypt
2 stifle
4 E plague
2 Krosan grip

Is the only advantage over the 4 C version the mana base? or are the extra sweepers worth it(i have 80% of legacy staples so money isnt the issue) I want to play this deck and have both built in the gauntlet I was just curious if any one could explain what matchups other then combo Meddling mage comes in against? I believe there is about 2 matchups I bring him in against but other people say vs alot bring him in. (i think vs storm combo and ichorid. but my friends say he comes in vs things like threshold nameing tarmogoyf or naming daze. As well as vs dragon stompy nameing slogger or RPD. Are they right?

Well your first question is hard to answer mainly because the lists you are using are sooooo much different that they can't be compared by the manabase, the one version you run decree and humility while the other runs countertop, for your lists, it doesn't matter on the 3c or the 4c, its more on the type of list you want to run, preferably I wouldnt run double color in the 4c build just because its difficult to do, And ive never like countertop in the deck. But if you want I would say choose on either use the countertop route or the humility route and don't worry about the color. about the second question, really meddling mage is only brought in for combo atleast in me experience, also I would bring it in against any deck that runs blood moon just to save you the trouble.



'The only advantage' 4 colors has over 5 colors is also the manabase, so go figure out if you would rather have a more powerful cards in your deck or be more often able to cast all of your spells. Taking into account the metagame is also pretty important in this decision, if it's full of Wastelands and Sinkholes then perhaps 3C might be better than 4C and vice versa.
Today 10:58 AM

He pretty much says it all, it really matters if you want a more stable manabase or play more powerful spells, Although I don't agree with the 5 color mainly because red doesn't have the bombs like the rest of the colors have. But I would like to say In my testing and obversation, going down to 3 colors doesn't help your manabase at all. Here would be the lists I would use for 4c and 3c(I dont play monastary)
4c:
4 tropical island
3 underground sea
3 tundra
3 flooded strand
3 polluted delta
4 factory
1 island
1 forest
1 savanah/scrubland

3c
4 tropical island
4 underground sea
4 delta
3 strand
4 factory
1 bayou
1 island
1 forest
1 swamp


Soo really the only addition is 1 more basic, and 1 more fetch which has the chance to be stifled or needled. Soo I figured I might as well run 4 colors and get swords and just play with stifle mainboard(which works out really well.)

landstill101
05-15-2008, 02:25 PM
Thank your bardo for someone finally answering me, and yes I do kinda throw it out the door like you suggest, but I just don't feel it is worth it in any way. And I have tested out your list alot, and It has won me many games, but I'm way too huge of a fan of swords to let it go, its like throwing my computer away, I would cry like a baby. But if I had to choose a 3c list, I would go with bardos in a heartbeat without question.

BreathWeapon
05-15-2008, 04:05 PM
I meant it's pointless to compare removal to Bitterblossom because Pernicious Deed and Swords to Plowshare are answers where Bitterblossom is both an answer and a threat. Sure, it's obvious that if a threat goes unanswered it'll end the game, but an enchantment that generates multiple evasive threats is a lot harder to answer than a Grizzly Bear. The average Landstill deck has about 9 open slots, so I don't think an X vs Y comparison is relevant, it's just a question of whether or not the card is strong enough to justify its presence in the deck.

This is a pointless argument tho', the card in and of itself is good, so either just test it or ignore it.

Shadowfax
05-15-2008, 04:14 PM
My list is:

4 wasteland
2 tundra
3 underground sea
1 scrubland
3 tropical island
4 mishra's factory
1 island
3 flooded strand
3 polluted delta

3 tombstalker
4 pernicios deed
4 swords to plowshares
2 crucible of worlds
3 brainstorm
2 fact or fiction
3 cunning wish
4 fow
4 counterspell
3 stifle
4 standstill

sideboard:
1 enlightened tutor
3 extirpate
3 engenered plague
4 hydroblast
1 pulse of the fields
1 slaughters pact
1 ghostly demise
1 disenchant

please try to play with it and say what you think

darkalucard
05-15-2008, 07:41 PM
please try to play with it and say what you think

Tombstalker is amazing in Landstill everyone should test him he has so much synergy's with the deck.

Shadowfax: Is 4x Tombstalker too much? And do you think it's worth the manabase to play Swords to Plowshares and not something like 2x Demise 2x Edict? What happens if you get cut off white or don't draw enough fetches? I know the double black is hard to get for Tombstalker.

TopGun
05-15-2008, 11:06 PM
Can any one state the advantages of Ubg landstill over UWbg landstill with these lists being the lists I would use

UWgb landstill

1 Eternal dragon

4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
3 Cunning wish
4 force of will
2 stifle
4 swords to plowshares

2 decree of justice
1 life from the loam

2 humility
3 Deed
4 standstill

2 EE

4 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
1 island
1 plains
4 factory
1 N monistary
3 tundra
2 tropical island
2 underground sea
2 wasteland
1 savahnna
1 scrubland

SB
4 Meddling mage
4 Extirpate
3 E Plague
1 Pulse of the feilds
1 Hydroblast
1 slaughter pact
1 Dismantelin blow

UBG landstill

4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
4 Force of will
2 stifle
2 smother

3 Counterbalance
3 P Deed
4 Standstill

3 EE
3 Sensei's top

1 Acadamy ruins
4 flooded strand
4 polluted delta
3 island
4 mishras factory
1 swamp
4 tropical island
3 underground sea

SB
4 extirpate
3 Tormads crypt
2 stifle
4 E plague
2 Krosan grip

Is the only advantage over the 4 C version the mana base? or are the extra sweepers worth it(i have 80% of legacy staples so money isnt the issue) I want to play this deck and have both built in the gauntlet I was just curious if any one could explain what matchups other then combo Meddling mage comes in against? I believe there is about 2 matchups I bring him in against but other people say vs alot bring him in. (i think vs storm combo and ichorid. but my friends say he comes in vs things like threshold nameing tarmogoyf or naming daze. As well as vs dragon stompy nameing slogger or RPD. Are they right?

I suggest switching around your 1st deckilist a bit...removing green (deed, lifeftL, Nantuko-->wrath, crucible, other land)...and adding an ee, and maybe another land.

1 Tolaria West
1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Wasteland
3 Plains
4 Tundra
2 Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
4 Mishra's Factory

Deed is better than wrath (mostly), but I think by playing humility, you kind of want a more white manabase. This one is very nice. It plays smooth, and can either destroy blood moon via ee, or just play around it with all the basics. Meddling Mage is easier to cast also. Not sure exactly all the matchups he comes in for, but maybe-->Loam, Combo, Ichorid...

Those decks aren't really good to compare 3c vs. 4c...they're totally different styles. You'd basically have to pick which of those styles you want, then decide if you want to go 3 or 4 color. Between the proposed 3c UWb list, and the 3c Ubg list...I'd say the UWb might be a little more consistent and smoother (don't need 3 colors to cast spells, only 2)...but the Ubg might (or might not, depending on who you ask) be a little more powerful.

Hope that helps.
-TG

Mental
05-16-2008, 01:08 AM
Probably not, since it completely ignores the question.

I was referring to this question. Sorry.


Can you give me a situation where bitterblossom would be better than say a swords, deed, counterspell, tarmogoyf?

I wouldn't MB Bitterblossom, but I have to admit it's a strong threat and answer. It's good against Thresh and Aggro, and provides an efficient finisher late game. And, it isn't a counterspell, but it does answer the most played creature in Legacy - Goyf.

Shadowfax
05-16-2008, 04:08 AM
Tombstalker is amazing in Landstill everyone should test him he has so much synergy's with the deck.

Shadowfax: Is 4x Tombstalker too much? And do you think it's worth the manabase to play Swords to Plowshares and not something like 2x Demise 2x Edict? What happens if you get cut off white or don't draw enough fetches? I know the double black is hard to get for Tombstalker.

4 stalkers is too much i'm sure. I really with to remove 4 swords, but as for demise - it is bad with LAKEY and tombstalker. Edict is 2 mana( , inocent blood is sorcery(

undone
05-16-2008, 10:09 AM
@TopGun

I could replace it but I feel that deeds are just SO GOOD they litteraly win games by them selves. Wrath doesnt say "wipe D Stompys board" it removes 1 creature sometimes 2. The Other thing I have noticed is that wrath tends to remove my own EDragon, and not to hit dredges zombies.

I am not as concerned about wastelands as stifles, and blood moons. If there is a way to deal with both of those effectivly then I would use the 4 C base and I think 4 SB BEB or hydro blasts should do the trick vs B moons, and playing carefuly should do the trick on stifle the fetch. Although I am taking out the monistary for either a basic or a tundra. The extra colorless is just bad.

TopGun
05-16-2008, 10:41 AM
@TopGun

I could replace it but I feel that deeds are just SO GOOD they litteraly win games by them selves. Wrath doesnt say "wipe D Stompys board" it removes 1 creature sometimes 2. The Other thing I have noticed is that wrath tends to remove my own EDragon, and not to hit dredges zombies.

I am not as concerned about wastelands as stifles, and blood moons. If there is a way to deal with both of those effectivly then I would use the 4 C base and I think 4 SB BEB or hydro blasts should do the trick vs B moons, and playing carefuly should do the trick on stifle the fetch. Although I am taking out the monistary for either a basic or a tundra. The extra colorless is just bad.

Except you have no outs to a resolved blood moon or magus...can't cast deed. You can still cast wrath, ee for 3, and swords/cunning wish-->return to dust/beb with the other list. It was just a suggestion. I <3 deed too, it's just not easy to cast sometimes. Also, I'm not sure if DS keeps in chalice vs. landstill (I'm guessing they do)...so BEB may be risky as only way to deal with moons.

undone
05-16-2008, 02:52 PM
You are right I think that the replacement land should be a plains so you can both fetch a plains up and snag the 2nd with a dragon cycle. But vs blood moon decks i tipicaly look for a counterspell or force to keep moon effects off the board. but if they land I have dismanteling blow in the board. Should I really add 1 to the board to wish for? or should I add 2-3 return to dust

landstill101
05-16-2008, 06:50 PM
First off Topgun, take your talk to the other thread, this is for the 4c or 3c with green in it, your talk is for the other thread, that is the reason for them splitting the thread. Now hopefully everyone will just ignore topgun and his suggestions to removing green to hopefully not start a huge stupid argument that gets no where.


Undone, I think your 3c build looks too much like thresh with standstill thrown in but that is just my opinion.(i'm also not a big fan or counterbalance in landstill, but if you like it stick with it, its a great card combination) Your 4c build thou could really work out, The one thing thou that I would do is take out the monastary like your talking about and maybe take out the wastelands because the manabase is unstable as it is and with you running a very low count of blue duals it would be easy for an opposing player to keep you off blue which would destroy you, and It would prob mana screw your more than anything else. Take out those 3 and add prob 1 more to each duel, just to give you more blue since you have 2 off duals and also to help with the double white. I would also try one bosk and then take out the 2 off duals and either add a fetch with the second or just add another stifle or something. I also like the dismantling blow just because of the card advantage, but it might prove worthless against thresh or any deck with blue if you need it mainly because of the high cost and the non split second, you might want to test krosan grip instead. You might also want to try taking out one extirpate and add like a deathmark or smother, just soo that ifyou have problems with a single goyf and only have a wish in hand you still have an out just in case. Also I have found out that more than once a meddling mage does not help in the combo matchup but if you take the count to 3 you can add a single orim's chant, which if played right instantly could win you the game( mana burn is awsome.) or atleast stop them mid combo and screw them up for about 4-5 turns which gives you more times to stablize and either win or be ready for next try.

TopGun
05-17-2008, 11:14 AM
Ok, ok, jeez...I was just trying to help the guy, not pimp the UWb build.

I'll change my advice then to a more appropriate for this thread, but imo less helpful...

1) I would not recommend adding a requirement of WW to a deck that already needs to get UU, BG, +W reliably...and all possibly early...

or

2) I would definitely make the appropriate sacrifices to the mana gods before playing in a serious tournament. I'd guess about a dual land or so for a 6 round swiss. Although if I recall correctly, they are difficult to burn, so make sure you have a good fire going first...then just add the card to it.

-TG

undone
05-17-2008, 09:12 PM
actualy I decided that the MMages would be better as orims chants just as 4 ofs, you can time walk combo and board in 3 games 2 and 3.

Personaly The 4c build feels much better to me. I playtested vs hanna fish, UGR thresh, ichorid, UGbw thresh, and D stompy

I won vs UGR thresh 3-0, vs hanna fish 2-0 and vs UGbw thresh 4-1

Vs ichorid (at the time the board involved 2 crypt over 2 mages) I boarded in 8 cards and game 2 I get an extirpate+ Mage naming dread return 10 swings for the win... ichorid is just great but boarding X cards wins vs this deck

D stompy We played 7 games, he won 1 involving T1, T2, And T3 blood moon effects followed by a chalice at 1 turn 4

I think this SB is more solid, and MMage just.... is so so...

4 Orim's chant
4 Extirpate
2 Other cards has changed between Crypt, a single FoF and extra gifts, and additional abances.
1 Abance
1 Hydroblast
1 Pulse of the feilds (SO GOOD IN TESTING!)
1 Dismantling blow
1 Slaughter pact (removal for the random goyf could also be smother.)

The biggest issue is that I dont know what those last 2 cards should be, keep in mind that plague is just not good enough vs gobs since its for just gobs, even if i play it the matchup is already greatly in my favor. If i was afrade of gobs I would run extra BEBs or hydroblasts.

Also fewer fetches and careful playing make stifle not relivant to my mana base. My worst nightmare is crucible + wasteland in terms of "WHOOPS LOSE" but i havent tested the mirror

EDIT: Also i have a question And i do play legacy alot which is why i ask this. Would putting the 4 force of will in the board be possible? YES I KNOW HERECY CRAZY INSANE AND SO FORTH. In any event cryptic seems like it could ACTUALY replace force in the main. You make your combo matchup worse, and improve your thresh matchup, instead of losing a card to counter a spell you gain a card.

This is random rantings. Just a curious question (i own forces i just felt like they underproform some times... yah they do amazing things on turn 1 and 0 but after that it is really bad untill turn 5)

WiLdFiRe
05-18-2008, 12:03 PM
Would putting the 4 force of will in the board be possible?

This is a joke right?

Mantis
05-18-2008, 12:50 PM
This is a joke right?

Sure hope so.
The only thing I can think off is that you don't run enough Blue cards, otherwise I can't see how you could dislike FoW.

Tacosnape
05-18-2008, 02:44 PM
If you wouldn't run more than 4 Forces if you were allowed to you would be crazy. Running any less than 4 is an awful idea, and if you do so you might as well go play a deck that capitalizes on the strengths of your splash colors and not blue (See "The Rock.").

undone
05-18-2008, 03:49 PM
It was more of a crazy Idea. I have no serious intention of removing forces. I just wanted to question the "AUTO INCLUDE XYZ" Its fine. Back to my basic SB what do you think of it?

Osse
05-18-2008, 05:09 PM
It was more of a crazy Idea. I have no serious intention of removing forces. I just wanted to question the "AUTO INCLUDE XYZ" Its fine. Back to my basic SB what do you think of it?

So you wasted 3-4 posts of the thread for your stupidity? Nice Job.

Something that actually should be questioned; is Cunning Wish worth the maindeck slots, AND the sideboard slots? Usually when I'm running a Cwish board I try to run cards that I'd side in anyways; ex: Extirpate. Stuff like Fact or Fiction is alot worse at 7 mana, and D-blow is pretty terrible for all that mana, Ray and Grudge are so much better, even Oxidize or Artifact Mutation.

Once I figure out the cards that I'll sb and are wishable, I end up just cutting Wish cause theres cards that are better than it. The general assumption I get from Wish boards is that no one thinks they'll actually need the slots, which is so far from the truth.

undone
05-18-2008, 09:48 PM
So you wasted 3-4 posts of the thread for your stupidity? Nice Job.

Was unintentional, and I agreed with you all I was just curious if the point had ever been brought up.



Something that actually should be questioned; is Cunning Wish worth the maindeck slots, AND the sideboard slots? Usually when I'm running a Cwish board I try to run cards that I'd side in anyways; ex: Extirpate. Stuff like Fact or Fiction is alot worse at 7 mana, and D-blow is pretty terrible for all that mana, Ray and Grudge are so much better, even Oxidize or Artifact Mutation.

Once I figure out the cards that I'll sb and are wishable, I end up just cutting Wish cause theres cards that are better than it. The general assumption I get from Wish boards is that no one thinks they'll actually need the slots, which is so far from the truth.

Well as to wish board being bad..... I am not going to lie FoF is ALOT less hot at 7 mana, but I have found chant to be VERY good vs TES, they cast a chant with shusher in play, life is alot worse. Chant fixes this situation Honestly I came up with this after playing the TES vs FT mirror FT has "more" chant effects and wins by casting men or out chanting, since you cant tendrils off for more then like 1-2 storm....

There are serveral points You made that are very good but the following observations I have made about the board.

1) Pulse is the nuts, Its out right insane you gain tipicaly 12-16 life off of it.

2) Hydroblast deals with D stompy.

3) slaughter pact is subpar, should be condemn, or smother

4) Dismantling blow, As K grip you still wish for it at end of turn. Vs decks that it is relivant you cant CB it away, and only force matters, the off chance that you get to draw 2 off of it. The thing is, If i have 6 mana to cast wish and grip, I would rather cast wish at end of turn and then draw 2 cards on my turn.

5) FoF is outa the board Its just... bad to wish for it.

6) I still dont know what the last 2 board slots are.

7) Chant did its job, very well its even good vs ichorid and breakfast.

Osse
05-19-2008, 12:24 AM
Well as to wish board being bad..... I am not going to lie FoF is ALOT less hot at 7 mana, but I have found chant to be VERY good vs TES, they cast a chant with shusher in play, life is alot worse. Chant fixes this situation Honestly I came up with this after playing the TES vs FT mirror FT has "more" chant effects and wins by casting men or out chanting, since you cant tendrils off for more then like 1-2 storm....

There are serveral points You made that are very good but the following observations I have made about the board.

1) Pulse is the nuts, Its out right insane you gain tipicaly 12-16 life off of it.

2) Hydroblast deals with D stompy.

3) slaughter pact is subpar, should be condemn, or smother

4) Dismantling blow, As K grip you still wish for it at end of turn. Vs decks that it is relivant you cant CB it away, and only force matters, the off chance that you get to draw 2 off of it. The thing is, If i have 6 mana to cast wish and grip, I would rather cast wish at end of turn and then draw 2 cards on my turn.

5) FoF is outa the board Its just... bad to wish for it.

6) I still dont know what the last 2 board slots are.

7) Chant did its job, very well its even good vs ichorid and breakfast.

I'm not saying this in regards to your wishboard only, its a general observation. I did a quick search on Germagic and found that of the 28 landstill decks with cunning wish, that top8ed, only 5 made first. Only 28 landstill decks of over 200 that top8ed, played Cwish. That's a little discouraging.

I don't have enough experience with Pulse, but it seems slow, and seems like something that people are playing that does everything beb does, but for 3 mana. Maybe I'm wrong and Landstill is too slow for you to stabalize at a life total.

Hydroblast is amazing, and I run multiples in my board everytime I get.

Slaughter Pact makes me wonder why Wish isn't just another Deed or explosives, or maindeck removal spell

Dblow is terrible. A control deck that casts main phase targeted destruction, for that steep a cost, is asking for trouble.

FoF is bad, agreed.

Needs more Bebs

I'm not sure on Chant, it seems like a bad white counterspell v Combo. I'm under the impression that it's one of those cards that rewards bad players. Anyone else had this experience? 5 of these effects is too much though, thats for sure, just run BalanceTop with those slots if you really want to smash combo.

Van Phanel
05-19-2008, 06:32 AM
I'm not saying this in regards to your wishboard only, its a general observation. I did a quick search on Germagic and found that of the 28 landstill decks with cunning wish, that top8ed, only 5 made first. Only 28 landstill decks of over 200 that top8ed, played Cwish. That's a little discouraging.

You are aware that Cunning Wish was only added to Landstill at the end of 2007 bei Der imaginäre Freund, Wasteland and Konsultant (in no particular order), right? Of course there are not that many Top8s, after all most of the decklists at germagic are older than that.



I don't have enough experience with Pulse, but it seems slow, and seems like something that people are playing that does everything beb does, but for 3 mana. Maybe I'm wrong and Landstill is too slow for you to stabalize at a life total.

Pulse gains you around 12-16 life vs burnspells, sometimes more, sometimes less. Blue Blast typically gains 3 life. Against Goblins Blue Blast is usually better but Pulse equals an autowin under Humility while you can still sometimes (even though rarely) lose to a horde of 1/1s.


Hydroblast is amazing, and I run multiples in my board everytime I get.

They are good indeed and running some to board in looks fine. What did you cut?


Slaughter Pact makes me wonder why Wish isn't just another Deed or explosives, or maindeck removal spell

Because it doesn't have to be Slaughter Pact (or Deed or EE or whatever) but can as well be something else.


Dblow is terrible. A control deck that casts main phase targeted destruction, for that steep a cost, is asking for trouble.

Why should you cast it mainphase unless you have a good reason to (like a tapped out opponent)? Note that the goal of Blow is not at all to draw cards, but rather to dodge Counterbalance.


I'm not sure on Chant, it seems like a bad white counterspell v Combo. I'm under the impression that it's one of those cards that rewards bad players.

Against combo Chant is actually better than a counter more often than not. It lets you effectively counter their Chant without worrying about a Shusher or being tapped out. Note that I don't want to argue for its inclusion, I just try to tell you why it might be useful.


Finally Der imaginäre Freund keeps repeating this and still people seem to forget it all the time: The only bad matchups landstill has are recursion-based. Extirpate gives us a shot against those even preboard. Mainboard Extirpate would suck against the greatest part of the meta as it typically produces carddisadvantage so we run Wish to have access to Extirpate and still not hurt our other matchups by a lot.

undone
05-19-2008, 10:47 AM
@Van Phanel- You seem to know alot about wish. Heres what I have wished for in various games.

Vs 43 lands.dec I wished for extirpate twice 1 time for loams, the 2nd time for wishes (countered one)

Vs UGw Threshold Wish for extirpate Force(he had no other counterspells and I put him on 1 in hand I was right) if I didnt think he had one would have been a slaughter pact for the goyf since I had a STP in hand

Vs UGb Thresh go for D blow, cast with kicker.

Vs Goblins with humility out Pulse

Vs Stupid 3 point burn, T3 cast it for pulse, win the game off of +16 life.

All of that seems Right Cept maby the goblin matchup.

FoF is just bad at 7. I was curious If I could add 1 function to wish with something that was a win condition. The closest thing I could find was gifts which got factory + loam and ED. That is actualy the only reason I thought of gifts. There did not appear to be a good instant speed win con so I kind of abandoned it.

BreathWeapon
05-19-2008, 11:51 AM
I haven't tried Cunning Wish -> Fact or Fiction but Cunning Wish -> Skeletal Scrying has been a "ball buster" in the control and aggro-control mirrors. If you're going to wish for a draw spell, you want a draw spell that is going to refill your hand instead of draw 2 cards out of 5, IMO.

diffy
05-19-2008, 12:00 PM
Vs 43 lands.dec I wished for extirpate twice 1 time for loams, the 2nd time for wishes (countered one)


Against anything with a recursion engine (read: Life from the Loam), shutting it down is your prime directive as otherwise you'll be out-card advantaged.
Luckily, against Life from the Loam, this is easy enough via Extirpate because they'll end up with one in their graveyard after a short while due to dredging/casting it - you now have to Wish for an Extirpate and then try to win from there.
Shutting down their Card Advantage Engine is a good step towards victory, but keep in mind that they can still beat you, especially via Manlands or Terravore/Crusher.



Vs UGw Threshold Wish for extirpate Force(he had no other counterspells and I put him on 1 in hand I was right) if I didnt think he had one would have been a slaughter pact for the goyf since I had a STP in hand


Against NQG, Extirpate is also a good target.
Depending on the situation, there are plenty of good targets, but the default target are their Tarmogoyfs: without Tarmogoyfs they can't really win as you can handle their Nimble Mongooses rather easily (Engineered Explosives, Pernicious Deed, Mishra's Factory).
Another very potent target is Enlightened Tutor for either Humility (resolve it, win) or for Pernicious Deed/Engineered Explosives/Standstill.



Vs UGb Thresh go for D blow, cast with kicker.


I wouldn't play Dismantling Blow in a 4c Version: Seed Spark (http://magiccards.info/rav/en/30.html) is just so much better as the two chump blockers are actually relevant in many matchups whereas you won't be paying the kicker for Dismantling Blow very often.



FoF is just bad at 7. I was curious If I could add 1 function to wish with something that was a win condition. The closest thing I could find was gifts which got factory + loam and ED. That is actualy the only reason I thought of gifts. There did not appear to be a good instant speed win con so I kind of abandoned it.

If you play Humility main, Enlightened Tutor is what comes closest to a 'Wincondition' and Card Advantage slot that you can get via Cunning Wish: being able to tutor up a Humility that will just win the game if resolved or a Standstill/Crucible of Worlds depending on the Matchup/Situation is golden and produces virtual card advantage.
Enlightened Tutor is also a good choice because it is pretty cheap too.

This is the Sideboard I currently use in my 4c list (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2512989&postcount=2):

3 Engineered Plague
4 Meddling Mage
3 Extirpate
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Seed Spark

The Blue Elemental Blast is a good addition to address Blood Moon/Magus of the Moon and has owned its slot over Engineered Plague n°4 since being added.

undone
05-19-2008, 12:23 PM
Wouldnt Mystical be just as good as enlightened? as you could go for the all important LftL and DoJ?

Also is MMage REALLY worth the slots? what do you board it in VS what do you name? I really havent seen what MMage does that is so fantastic as to warrent a 2/2 body can you tell me?

diffy
05-19-2008, 01:06 PM
Wouldnt Mystical be just as good as enlightened? as you could go for the all important LftL and DoJ?


In 4c builds, Mystical would be pretty bad as it can't get you mass-removal, Card Advantage or a game breaker (Humility).
Also, there's little that Mystical can do that Enlightened can't: where Mystical Tutor can get Life from the Loam, Enlightened Tutor gets Crucible of Worlds which is even better by the time you want to Tutor it up (lategame) because you don't have to skip draws to it - where Mystical gets Decree of Justice, Enlightened just gets Humility against aggro which is also a sort of wincondition or Crucible/Standstill against control which will also lead to victory due to you being able to cement your control-position.



Also is MMage REALLY worth the slots? what do you board it in VS what do you name? I really havent seen what MMage does that is so fantastic as to warrent a 2/2 body can you tell me?

At least in the European Meta, Meddling Mage is totally worth his slots: he gets boarded in against literally every non-aggro match... besides the obvious merits against combo (clock + disruption) and recursion based decks (Life from the Loam, Cabal Therapy, Survival of the Fittest etc.), he's also awesome against most control decks: you have to be the aggro-player in many control matchups and Mage helps a lot here by being a 2/2 body that won't be answered that easily because the opponent is likely to board out a significant proportion of his removal and by shutting down the opponent's key spells too (e.g. Back to Basics against MUC, Armageddon against Stax etc.) allowing you to make sure that your gameplan goes on unhindered.

b4r0n
05-19-2008, 01:17 PM
Wouldnt Mystical be just as good as enlightened? as you could go for the all important LftL and DoJ?

Enlightened gets Standstill, which nets you card advantage, or it gets EE, which provides you with removal and sometimes also nets you card advantage. Mystical might not be terrible though, as it can get you Loam or StP. That's actually worth considering, depending on your build.


Also is MMage REALLY worth the slots? what do you board it in VS what do you name? I really havent seen what MMage does that is so fantastic as to warrent a 2/2 body can you tell me?

Mage is really important against storm combo. They need to remove it before they can go off and fight through your counterwall, rather than just fight through your counterwall. Permanent-based hate tends to provide a more difficult problem for storm combo than countermagic. Mage is also good against Loam-based decks, which will outdraw you and overwhelm you if left unimpeded. So basically, Mage is solid against many forms of control and combo.

Against FT, I'd name Tendrils first, then Wipe Away (although Chant or Brain Freeze might also be good to name... ask emidln what he thinks). Against TES, I'd also name Tendrils first (you can handle EtW with EE and Deed), then probably Pyroblast. Against Solidarity, I think the plan is to name Brain Freeze and prevent them from slow rolling you. After that, I'd probably name... Wish?

EDIT: Sarnath'd.

undone
05-19-2008, 01:20 PM
At least in the European Meta, Meddling Mage is totally worth his slots: he gets boarded in against literally every non-aggro match... besides the obvious merits against combo (clock + disruption) and recursion based decks (Life from the Loam, Cabal Therapy, Survival of the Fittest etc.), he's also awesome against most control decks: you have to be the aggro-player in many control matchups and Mage helps a lot here by being a 2/2 body that won't be answered that easily because the opponent is likely to board out a significant proportion of his removal and by shutting down the opponent's key spells too (e.g. Back to Basics against MUC, Armageddon against Stax etc.) allowing you to make sure that your gameplan goes on unhindered.

Interesting, So tarmogoyf in the main might make more sence if you wanted to be the aggro player. What is the difference in the European metagame and the american metagame, I keep hearing about the difference between them but no one has really defined it. What is it.

Also Seems like MMage is a all or none of. Is this correct?

Nihil Credo
05-19-2008, 01:29 PM
I wouldn't play Dismantling Blow in a 4c Version: Seed Spark (http://magiccards.info/rav/en/30.html) is just so much better as the two chump blockers are actually relevant in many matchups whereas you won't be paying the kicker for Dismantling Blow very often.
Just because I like coming up with random silver bullets: Mystic Melting comes to mind as a more affordable CA Disenchant effect.

Van Phanel
05-19-2008, 03:56 PM
@Nihil Credo: Possible, still I'd agree with DiF that Seed Spark is probably better.

@undone: Yes, for being the aggro player Tarmogoyf main would make sense. However you don't plan to be the aggro player. Ever. You just do it when those matchups come up. Still you can run Goyf if you want to. Never run it together with Humility however.

It can be correct to run 3 Meddling Mages as well. He still does his job when drawn later, as opposed to (for example) Leyline which should always be a four or none-of. Of course you want to draw it as early as possible but you only have 15 sb-slots. Marius Hausmann (Wasteland) is currently running the following sb:

4 Leyline of the Void
3 Meddling Mage
3 Engineered Plague
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Extirpate
1 Seed Spark (I think. Might be Blow)
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pulse of the Fields

He plays Leyline because it helps even more in the really bad matchups (like Loam) because it doesn't only shut down their recursion, it also shuts down what they want to recur. On the other hand it can be Gripped, but between Humility, Crucible, Deed, EE your opponent will run out of Grips long before you run out of Artifacts/ Enchantments to destroy.

@b4r0n:
What you name against combo depends on the situation. There is no general plan. Against TES Chant, Burning Wish and LED (in no particular order) are possible targets. But it can also be correct to name Shusher. I actually had a game against Bryant Cook during the Source-tournament where I (correctly) named D-Returns and it won me the game where anything else maybe wouldn't have.

Generally: Don't name a win-option but disrupt their engine!

Also against Solidarity Brain Freeze is the worst possibility. A turn-2 Mage should always name High Tide, with Follow Ups naming Cunning Wish and (if you think they boarded it) Wipe Away. Brain Freeze generally is a losig plan, as they'll play through your counters, resolve three Meditates, bounce your Mage and then win or just Stroke you for 40+. Also Solidarity is not a metagameconsideration unless it is heavily played at your local meta otherwise we'd play another deck.

@undone: I am in a team with Marius Hausmann (Wasteland), so I naturally learned a lot about landstill.

You are pretty much correct about the Wish-targets except that you seem to not play Enlightened. Listen to DiF, he knows what he does.

- Van

diffy
05-19-2008, 04:29 PM
Leyline

Isn't Wheel of Sun and Moon (http://magiccards.info/shm/en/243.html) just the better option? It is easier on the Mana (double black isn't the easiest to come by) and cheaper if you don't have it in your opening hand especially since you don't want to mulligan into it in the Loam matchups. I think that being able to cast it at half the price of Leyline is worth the loss of the occasional tempo advantage that Leyline offers especially since Loam decks don't do that much in the first few turns anyway.

Just in case anyone wonders: Leyline/Wheel are played over Planar Void because they both are replacement effects and not triggered abilities which is useful against Countryside Crusher (who still would get counters under Planar Void).

Van Phanel
05-19-2008, 04:41 PM
I agree. It is even possible to run only 3 Wheels and readd the fourth Meddling Mage or some other card then (even though I like the thought of 4 Wheels)

Maybe even a 3 Leyline, 1 Planar Void/ Wheel split would make sense here with Tutor in mind. As I don't actively play the deck, I can't tell you more however. I'll try to get Marius to answer here.

Edit: Yeah right, I knew there was a reason. It was just too obvious to see for us. Maybe playing too much U-W-b has made us forget about Deed :) Thx Wasteland

Wasteland
05-19-2008, 05:58 PM
Concerning Planar Void / Sun and Moon Wheel: You can surely pack theese cards in a UWb Landstill, in my 4c build i wound never run theese cause of the own pernicious deeds.
greetz, Marius

Osse
05-19-2008, 07:01 PM
Don't you side the deeds out v Ichy, or blow it at 1 or 0? I guess the Loam argument is fine, but iunno. You can also target yourself with Wheel if he goes wasteland recursion so it might be worth it. Sorry this isn't more in-depth.

Bardo
05-20-2008, 12:31 AM
Concerning Planar Void / Sun and Moon Wheel: You can surely pack theese cards in a UWb Landstill, in my 4c build i wound never run theese cause of the own pernicious deeds.
greetz, Marius

I'm with Osse here in struggling to find a match-up where you would, post-board, typically blow Deed for more than 0 or 1. What am I missing?

landstill101
05-20-2008, 12:59 AM
With the whole sideboard, lately I haven't been bringing in mmage(mainly because i haven't seen any combo.) But I haven't seen a reason where taking out mainboard slots for them when the mainboard slot is better. The one card I have liked is extirpate which really helps against landstills 1 bad problem recursion, But lately my meta has been filled with a couple of cards that extirpate could not stop such as stronghold, academy ruins, treetop village, etc, soooo I added pithing needle in my board and learned to blow my deeds right and it has actually won me more games than I can remember, I bring them in for:
wasteland
stronghold
dust bowl
academy ruins
fetches(if they are really that bad of a player and forget to sac)
vial
manlands(the ones I don't use)
rashidan port
sadly zuran orb
any many other odd things that rucur or just hurt..

Right now this is my sideboard:(sorry no c wish here)
2 meddling mage
3 extirpate
3 engineered plague
3 pithing needle
2 krosan grip
2 beb

landstill101
05-20-2008, 01:03 AM
Quick question, since a couple of the last posts have been talking about the ichorid matchup, are you guys having problems with it??? a deed laughs in the face, and explosives works great, and if you play against lists that have akroma in it, they can still be swords or countered. 4c Landstill is one of the few blue decks that don't have a bad matchup against ichorid because of the power of the other 3 colors, this should be an easy matchup that doesn't need specific sideboard slots, extirpate is more than enough, and even mmage can work to beat them.

Mister Agent
05-20-2008, 01:45 AM
Ichorid can still be a hard matchup even if your prepared for it postboard. I mean Ichorid is still a Deck to beat for a reason. A good strategy when playing against ichorid is probably naming "illusion" with engineered plague which will cancel out their narcomoebas. Considering narcomoeba is one of their piece outlets when going off.

Omega
05-20-2008, 02:20 AM
However, if the bridges are in their graveyard, even naming the narcomoeba will give them zombies, and eventually, they will win...

Robert

Mister Agent
05-20-2008, 02:27 AM
However, if the bridges are in their graveyard, even naming the narcomoeba will give them zombies, and eventually, they will win...

Robert

That's why I said it wasn't an easy matchup even if your prepared for it. Depending on the situation engineered plague can buy you sometime though and your better off supplementing plague with other hate like extirpate.

Wasteland
05-20-2008, 08:31 AM
Terravore / Countryside Crusher / Seismic Assault have all a cc of 3 - you need the deed on 3 there...

i_need_the_extra_turns
05-20-2008, 10:31 AM
Terravore / Countryside Crusher / Seismic Assault have all a cc of 3 - you need the deed on 3 there...

Thats right.
I play a 4c list with cunning wish and of course the platinum angel aka humility.

My Board:
3 Meddling Mage
3 Engineered Plague
2 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Extirpate
1 Seed Spark
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pulse of the Fields

I prefer extirpate as gave control. You don't need it on your start hand like the Leyline AND it is a wish target and improves your loam matchup preboard (for me: extirpate is the only reason to play cunning wish instead of enlight. tutor for example).
I would like to speak about some boarding plans, cause I saw several posts, that mention: Boarding meddling mages against other matchup except combo.
Can u give concrete examples? Which matchups? What comes in/out?
For example I don't board mages against loam, except land.dec.

greetz

undone
05-20-2008, 11:14 AM
I play ichorid and I will tell you naming ilusion is pretty irrelivant. Name horror and simply stifle narcomebas triggers. Also as an ichorid player I can safely say that UGbw Landstill Is my hardest non combo matchup. Swords+ plagues target Ichorid/horror, Counterspells target dread return, deed/explosives set at 0, stifle on narcos is a pain, and stifling cephilid sage is just awfule for us.

Also play non hateable hate vs ichorid, extripate and faerie macab or offle snout(snout is better) seriously 3 snout 4 extirpate compleatly beat the deck especialy with brainstorm and force to slow the deck down. But then there are still those games where they go off through a force of will on turn 1.

diffy
05-20-2008, 11:37 AM
I prefer extirpate as gave control. You don't need it on your start hand like the Leyline AND it is a wish target and improves your loam matchup preboard (for me: extirpate is the only reason to play cunning wish instead of enlight. tutor for example).


That's why there still is one Extirpate in Wasteland' board... Leylines are just complements.
If there are no Loam decks in your meta, going with Extirpates over Leylines is a plainly reasonable move as they are more broadly usable (NQG, Control, Combo etc.).



I would like to speak about some boarding plans, cause I saw several posts, that mention: Boarding meddling mages against other matchup except combo.
Can u give concrete examples? Which matchups? What comes in/out?
For example I don't board mages against loam, except land.dec.


Against most control decks you have to be the aggro player because you have too many dead cards (removal), even after boarding - Meddling Mage helps a lot with this. He's also useful to protect you of a single card that will otherwise always need to be addressed with a counter because it would win on the spot if left unchecked. Setting a Mage on said card will then give you more time and security to accomplish your main gameplan for the matchup.
There are plenty of matchups where Meddling Mage is great... some examples:
Meddling Mage can come in against Mono-U Control to name Back to Basics and support your clock
He can also come in against Stax to name Armageddon which is their best shot at winning if it resolves even if you have the game under control otherwise
I also board him against Aggro Loam to name Devastating Dreams once I have shut down their Loam-recursion engine or to shut down their Engine in the first place (if you happen to not have Extirpate).

b4r0n
05-20-2008, 02:19 PM
@b4r0n:
What you name against combo depends on the situation. There is no general plan. Against TES Chant, Burning Wish and LED (in no particular order) are possible targets. But it can also be correct to name Shusher. I actually had a game against Bryant Cook during the Source-tournament where I (correctly) named D-Returns and it won me the game where anything else maybe wouldn't have.

Generally: Don't name a win-option but disrupt their engine!

Also against Solidarity Brain Freeze is the worst possibility. A turn-2 Mage should always name High Tide, with Follow Ups naming Cunning Wish and (if you think they boarded it) Wipe Away. Brain Freeze generally is a losig plan, as they'll play through your counters, resolve three Meditates, bounce your Mage and then win or just Stroke you for 40+. Also Solidarity is not a metagameconsideration unless it is heavily played at your local meta otherwise we'd play another deck.

If you name win conditions with Mage, doesn't this effectively slow down the combo player by making them search for removal? For example, naming Tendrils against TES makes their Infernal Tutors and LEDs useless, and negates the usefulness of their first Burning Wish (since they have to use it to find removal). Naming Wish or LED simply forces them to go about winning in a different way. Thus, it seems better to shut off the win condition and just defend the Mage for 10 turns (or less).

For Solidarity, it seems like they can beat you even without High Tide, by Brain Freezing you over the course of several turns. You have no way of defending against such a "slow roll" strategy other than Mage (or possibly Stifle, if you run it). However, you can defend against High Tide by countering it and preventing them from getting their engine going.

But you probably have more experience with the deck than I do, so I'll defer to your expertise; it just seems to me that it would be better to stop storm win conditions with Mage, and fight over the engine with counterspells.

landstill101
05-20-2008, 02:54 PM
If you name win conditions with Mage, doesn't this effectively slow down the combo player by making them search for removal? For example, naming Tendrils against TES makes their Infernal Tutors and LEDs useless, and negates the usefulness of their first Burning Wish (since they have to use it to find removal). Naming Wish or LED simply forces them to go about winning in a different way. Thus, it seems better to shut off the win condition and just defend the Mage for 10 turns (or less).

For Solidarity, it seems like they can beat you even without High Tide, by Brain Freezing you over the course of several turns. You have no way of defending against such a "slow roll" strategy other than Mage (or possibly Stifle, if you run it). However, you can defend against High Tide by countering it and preventing them from getting their engine going.

But you probably have more experience with the deck than I do, so I'll defer to your expertise; it just seems to me that it would be better to stop storm win conditions with Mage, and fight over the engine with counterspells.

When it comes to mmage, it really comes down to what deck your playing, if it is 4c landstill then you would easily name tendrils because you have soooo many ways to stop empty of the warrens that it makes the match easy but if your not playing landstill then naming tendrils is a waste of a mmage because they just laugh and get goblins and win the next turn instead. Against solidarity(which in my opinion is one of the worst combo decks right now) is actually really easy to stop if you name high tide, mainly because high tide takes out many of their draws because they don't have enough mana. Naming brainfreeze is worthless mainly because they can just cunning wish to bounce the creature and they usually have enough mana because of high tide.

undone
05-20-2008, 03:00 PM
Or just name cunning wish, then name Brainfreeze. But honestly recursion seems to be our worst matchup, A question I have Has thoughtsieze been tested. Seems like its a great 4 of as additional counterspells because It stops storm even more, it makes the threshold matchup even better, and ironicaly helps in the ichorid matchup (YOINK TO THE GAS) Grabbing the recurison before it matters then extirpating it prevents it from winning more easily

Van Phanel
05-20-2008, 10:16 PM
Rest assured that (at least since the addition of Extirpate against recursion) Solidarity is the worst matchup Cunning Landstill has by far. Whoever doesn't believe that, feel free to contact me via pm and we'll play it out (I'm pretty busy this week but after Sunday it should be possible to find a time to play). I'd really wonder if you could win more than 1 out of 10 matches. You only ever win this matchup if they struggle with finding lands or you have a draw with like 2 Meddling Mage and 3 counters (and even that sometimes isn't enough)

That said, more about relevant matchups namely TES/ Fetchland Tendrils:

Yes naming a wincondition slows them down. But as they have so much protection (Chant + Shusher/ Chant + Extirpate) and so many solutions to Mage (Red Blast + SB Pyroclasm/bounce + Sudden Death(sometimes)) they will eventually find a way to kill/ temporarily remove it before going off more often than not. Also, be prepared for Empty the Warrens + Chant. Naming Chant is the thing I'd do with a counter in hand as it gives you a reasonable shot at stopping them. Shusher is a creature, so getting rid of it shouldn't be that hard. Against FT consider naming Extirpate as well.

Generally speaking there are two different things to consider when naming something:
a) What would annoy you most at the moment/ What will help them the most? More often than not this is Chant, but if you have no creatureremoval this can be Shusher as well.
b) What are they most likely to have/ What are you sure that they have? Seen a Mystical by FT? Name what they searched, there is a reason why they searched it. TES just Wished for something/ Infernaled for something without Hellbent? Name it. Being able to read your opponent is huge here if they didn't show you something.

Still remember that there is no general plan, the correct naming always depends on the circumstances.

b4r0n
05-20-2008, 10:26 PM
Fair enough. That makes a lot of sense.

On a completely different note, a general question for everyone: how many Deeds/Explosives are you running? I've seen quite a few combinations... 4/2, 3/3, 4/0. Sometimes Crime//Punishment as a supplement, sometimes not. Is this a result of metagame concerns, or personal preference? Have people found C/P to be better/equal/worse than EE, or simply different?

undone
05-21-2008, 11:50 AM
Crime and punishment to me reads

BGx
explosives for X

3BW
Tarmogoyf

But my sweepers include 3 deed 2 explosives and 2 humility (not a sweeper but JUST AS GOOD!) Explosives is so good its not even funny, its so good in the ichorid matchup where crime and punishment is just too slow

landstill101
05-21-2008, 12:23 PM
Fair enough. That makes a lot of sense.

On a completely different note, a general question for everyone: how many Deeds/Explosives are you running? I've seen quite a few combinations... 4/2, 3/3, 4/0. Sometimes Crime//Punishment as a supplement, sometimes not. Is this a result of metagame concerns, or personal preference? Have people found C/P to be better/equal/worse than EE, or simply different?

I play 4 deeds and 2 explosives. With this and 4 swords in the deck I have never needed to use a counterspell on a creature to stop it, which leaves the counterspells to stop other things.

Bardo
05-21-2008, 01:42 PM
On a completely different note, a general question for everyone: how many Deeds/Explosives are you running? I've seen quite a few combinations... 4/2, 3/3, 4/0. Sometimes Crime//Punishment as a supplement, sometimes not. Is this a result of metagame concerns, or personal preference? Have people found C/P to be better/equal/worse than EE, or simply different?

In my U/b/g:

3 Pernicious Deed
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Diabolic Edict

In U/b/g/w:

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Crime // Punishment

I own four Deeds, so the 3/3 is not a concession to card availability on my part.

Here's how I see it. Once the game is underway, I would typically -- though not always -- want to have Deed, since it cleans up more and can best maximize the card advantage that can be gained by the sweepers. There may be some fringe reasons for wanting EE over Deed on turn 6 or so, but they're pretty minimal.

Turns 1 - 4, I almost always want EE, for the following reasons:

1) Can clear the board of all ETW token on turn 2 with any two lands in the deck

2a) Can be played and activated for 1 with only a basic Island + Wasteland + Factory. (etc.) That is, less acrobatics with your mana to produce the same effect.

2b) Doesn't force you to produce two different kinds of dual lands if you don't want to (e.g. you can nuke CBs, Goyfs, Confidants, 'what-have-yous' with just an Island + Trop + Factory)

3) In general, a turn faster ({C}{D}{E} + 2 activation; vs. 1BG [3] + x) vs. everything.

4) Picture of a bunch of elephants being detonated is just awesome.

5) [Fringe] Deed more likely to be Needle'd / Mage'd.

Again, Deed has many relative advantages over EE at different points of the game; but many other times I would rather be holding an EE (esp. the early game). Hence, the 3/3 split in my lists.

Mister Agent
05-21-2008, 03:59 PM
Well anyway I have been testing Bardo's deck some more and here has what I came up with.

Bardo's Landstill
Testing list by Kevin Liu

// Lands
3 [PT] Island (4)
2 [TE] Swamp (4)
1 [DIS] Breeding Pool
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [A] Tropical Island
3 [U] Underground Sea

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [7E] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [CS] Counterbalance
2 [TE] Diabolic Edict
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [CS] Counterbalance
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [A] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [LRW] Thoughtseize

A couple of noticable changes:

Edict has been supplementing shackles, deed, and EE quite nicely and it's useful to have some instantaneous removal in here for once.

Thoughtseize is awesome in Bardo's build in my opinion. Mainly because since my metagame is a field full of stifles thoughtseize has been the answer. Besides it's nice to have a playset of thoughtseizes against just about anything in the format.

I am still not sold on the singleton counterbalance in the board but since my metagame is full of aggro-control it can be a utilizing slot.

thefreakaccident
05-21-2008, 08:54 PM
@Kevin- what does your meta look like?

I would think that build would dominate in an agro-control meta... however, the goblin MU seems kinda tough as CB is kinda dead weight in that MU.


I was never a fan of goyf in landstill, and probably never will be a fan, however, I do see the reason for its' inclusion in that list.


EDIT: 800! W007

gobblor
05-21-2008, 09:31 PM
Moved my post. Meant to be in the other landstill thread.

Mister Agent
05-21-2008, 09:33 PM
@Kevin- what does your meta look like?

I would think that build would dominate in an agro-control meta... however, the goblin MU seems kinda tough as CB is kinda dead weight in that MU.


I was never a fan of goyf in landstill, and probably never will be a fan, however, I do see the reason for its' inclusion in that list.


EDIT: 800! W007

Well it's more like an artificial metagame since it's online still it's quite fun though.

Well since everyone online runs stifles and pithing needles in their aggro-control decks it can be a rough matchup. Also goblins isn't really played that much where I play but it should be better postboard(like in bardo's alpha list he ran 4 plagues and 4 hydroblasts in the board).

Goyf has been a good inclusion in Bardo's landstill since you can basically switch roles and play a aggro-control pace when needed. I always like decks that can play more then one pace. Bardo's deck does take skill since it isn't easy to pilot. However, that's a challenge that I will not refuse.

i_need_the_extra_turns
05-22-2008, 07:26 AM
Hi, I'm actually testing this 4c list:

//Lands 25
4x Flooded Strand
3x Delta
3x Tundra
2x Underground Sea
1x Tropical
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
1x Island
1x Plains
4x Mishra
2x Wasteland
1x Academy ruins
1x Nantuko

//Stuff
4x Standstill
4x FoW
4x Counterspell
4x Swords
4x Brainstorm
3x Deed
3x EE
2x Humility
2x Cunning Wish
2x Crucible of Worlds
2x Decree
+1 SLOT

I would run 25 lands or 24 lands + E-dragon.
I want to test Jace in the free slot. What do u think?
Do u have experience with jace in the 4c list???


greetz

Mister Agent
05-23-2008, 01:58 AM
Hi, I'm actually testing this 4c list:

//Lands 25
4x Flooded Strand
3x Delta
3x Tundra
2x Underground Sea
1x Tropical
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
1x Island
1x Plains
4x Mishra
2x Wasteland
1x Academy ruins
1x Nantuko

//Stuff
4x Standstill
4x FoW
4x Counterspell
4x Swords
4x Brainstorm
3x Deed
3x EE
2x Humility
2x Cunning Wish
2x Crucible of Worlds
2x Decree
+1 SLOT

I would run 25 lands or 24 lands + E-dragon.
I want to test Jace in the free slot. What do u think?
Do u have experience with jace in the 4c list???


greetz

I actually tested out Jace in UGb landstill and basically he is a ophidian on crack. Jace is brilliant considering you can nullify those one for one trade offs with him in play. Although, I am not saying he is better then fact or fiction though but the kind of pace that Jace brings to any match should not be over looked.

undone
05-24-2008, 08:22 PM
What bad matchups does this deck(landstill) have in general? (spesificaly my varient)

1 Eternal Dragon
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
3 Cunning Wish
4 Force of Will
2 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Decree of Justice
1 Life from the Loam
2 Humility
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Standstill
2 Engineered Explosives

4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Plains
2 Polluted Delta
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
2 Wasteland

SB:
4 Open slots
1 Hydroblast
1 Dismantling Blow
4 Extirpate
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Slaughter Pact
3 Engineered Plague

I have considered dropping something for a second island but decided against it. The deck Is very good I honestly feel like theres no MU I should lose that I have played against. The only one I know of is Angel stax, angel stax seems like it might be good against this deck simply because geddon or stax resolving is REALLY bad for this deck. But manageable via LFTL. Also I dont know what the bad MUs are (ICHORID obvs but its actualy not awful like some decks vs it.) Other then that what are the bad matchups and what are some good SB cards for it (I have 4 open spots)

DuKeLiO
05-30-2008, 09:41 AM
I really wouldn´t remove the Meddling Mages on sideboard. Really they are your weapon against all the bad matchups. You can use it against Ichorid, any LftL deck and any combo deck. Also they are very good against White Stax naming Armaggeddon. I wouldn't play less than 3 Meddlings.
These exact list are the list than I and my team use and we won every tournament when were playing with it (the two 4-Tarmogoyfs tourney, the RoF Tourney and a lot of shop tourneys).
The only change I am considering now is adding a Fracturing Gust in the sideboard to totaly own Stax with a Cunning Wish.

landstill101
05-30-2008, 07:00 PM
What bad matchups does this deck(landstill) have in general? (spesificaly my varient)

1 Eternal Dragon
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
3 Cunning Wish
4 Force of Will
2 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Decree of Justice
1 Life from the Loam
2 Humility
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Standstill
2 Engineered Explosives

4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Plains
2 Polluted Delta
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
2 Wasteland

SB:
4 Open slots
1 Hydroblast
1 Dismantling Blow
4 Extirpate
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Slaughter Pact
3 Engineered Plague

I have considered dropping something for a second island but decided against it. The deck Is very good I honestly feel like theres no MU I should lose that I have played against. The only one I know of is Angel stax, angel stax seems like it might be good against this deck simply because geddon or stax resolving is REALLY bad for this deck. But manageable via LFTL. Also I dont know what the bad MUs are (ICHORID obvs but its actualy not awful like some decks vs it.) Other then that what are the bad matchups and what are some good SB cards for it (I have 4 open spots)

There is one main weakness to landstill and it has been said by many people but some are still not listening...............RECURSION............ That being said I guess I have to explain, landstill has a badmatchup against 42 lands, why? because they recur everything they play and you have alot of problems stopping them since counters can't stop land drops. Any deck that runs LFTL is a pain because they recur things like treetop and wasteland and such. Decks that have volrath's stronghold and academy ruins is a pain in the butt, why becuase of recursion. Landstill wins because you force the late game and control the board with card advantage, trading 1 card for 2-3-4......tons with deed if done right, and swing with manlands. But if you have to trade 1 for 1 and their 1 comes back again, you run out of options very fast. Some people have tried to answer this with such things as pithing needle(doesn't answer enough of them and is easily blown up) and extirpate but its still not enough. Hope this explained your question

Mental
05-30-2008, 10:03 PM
There is one main weakness to landstill and it has been said by many people but some are still not listening...............RECURSION............ That being said I guess I have to explain, landstill has a badmatchup against 42 lands, why? because they recur everything they play and you have alot of problems stopping them since counters can't stop land drops. Any deck that runs LFTL is a pain because they recur things like treetop and wasteland and such. Decks that have volrath's stronghold and academy ruins is a pain in the butt, why becuase of recursion. Landstill wins because you force the late game and control the board with card advantage, trading 1 card for 2-3-4......tons with deed if done right, and swing with manlands. But if you have to trade 1 for 1 and their 1 comes back again, you run out of options very fast. Some people have tried to answer this with such things as pithing needle(doesn't answer enough of them and is easily blown up) and extirpate but its still not enough. Hope this explained your question
Yeah, the 43.lands MU is tough. However, in actual tournament play, it's not a big problem. You can easily drag the match into overtime, and win one game post SB with Pate/Chalice, if you play those (I do). I've never lost a game to Lands!, but I've never won one either in actual tournament play.

aTn
05-31-2008, 08:57 PM
I agree with you Landstill101, recursion (in Loam decks in particular) is a pain. I have not tested the 43 land MU but it seems hard.

----------
Sidenote
----------

I'm posting here a list of Ubgw Landstill that resembles Bardo's lists but which I've modified for a meta containing a decent amount of fast aggro decks, recursion decks (Loam, Survival) and burn decks (Burn, Goyf Sligh), few combo (Fetchland Tendrils, Belcher, TES, Breakfast usually make up for about 10-15 % of the field) and good amounts of Threshold, Baseruption and similar decks.

My record for the last six tournaments I attended (with about 20-35 players) is 3 first place finishes, 1 second place finish, one 7th place finish and one third place finish this week.

Why am I posting this ?

I think it will be helpful to get your comments (I posted it in the 'old' Landstill thread a while ago but I didn't have all the testing and tournament experience I have now) and also to show that a list without CB-Top can also win in a field of Thresholdesque decks. I basically took the Vorosh Build and went -2 Flex Slots, - CB/Top, +3 Ponder, +2 Tombstalker (fast decks call for desperate measures) and +3 StoP. The manabase and SB where also changed to suit the new list and my meta (respectively).

Draw, Cantrip (11)
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Ponder

Control (8)
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell

Board Control, Removal, etc. (11)
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Vedalken Shackles

Creatures (6)
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker

Mana (24)
4 Mishra’s Factory
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
3 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains

Sideboard (15)
4 Hyrdoblast/BEB (Burn and Goyf Sligh are rather present in my meta)
4 Leyline of the Void (Loam and Ichorid are also present enough to warrant this)
4 Meddling Mage
3 Krosan Grip

Remark: It would seem by looking at the list that getting BB for Tombstalker is a problem, but I usually use it as a late game finisher (except against Combo where I want to cast it as soon as I'm confident I can spoil their plans or already have). Also, I kept getting Extirpated and Tombstalker has helped me emptying my yard of vital cards, as Extirpate prevention/paranoia (at least it keeps my stress level low).

undone
06-01-2008, 12:55 AM
Is Meddling mage really that good? Should the remaining 4 slots be MMage?

My build runs 1x loam myself so MMage naming loam isnt as good, and thats beside the fact that loam plays barbarian rings to kill them. (or do I name B wish?)

Also what does every one think of 1 SB forbid??? seems like its potentialy amazing as it is a wishable hard counter that can use loam as a enabler.

EDIT: Can you tell me what I should do with this mana base. The thing is I need the savannah and scrubland to stay for eternal dragon (I run 1 MD) I feel like im not running enough blue. Should I drop 2 deltas for islands? or a single wasteland?

4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Plains
2 Polluted Delta
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
2 Wasteland

aTn
06-05-2008, 05:41 PM
Is Meddling mage really that good? Should the remaining 4 slots be MMage?

I'm testing him and up to now he's been good against combo and also in match-ups where I want a bit more aggro (but that's far from a good justification).


My build runs 1x loam myself so MMage naming loam isnt as good, and thats beside the fact that loam plays barbarian rings to kill them. (or do I name B wish?)


Most builds of Loam I see are either variations of Terrageddon (GW or GWb) and GW Slide.dec so I Barbarian Ring doesn't bother me.


Also what does every one think of 1 SB forbid??? seems like its potentialy amazing as it is a wishable hard counter that can use loam as a enabler.

Maybe, frankly I have no valid opinion on the matter; I'd need to test it.


EDIT: Can you tell me what I should do with this mana base.

I'd have to see your build to know what to do. You can PM it to me, but it might take a while for me to answer since I'm in work overload trying to finish a paper for a scientific journal.

landstill101
06-06-2008, 12:44 AM
I agree with you Landstill101, recursion (in Loam decks in particular) is a pain. I have not tested the 43 land MU but it seems hard.

----------
Sidenote
----------

I'm posting here a list of Ubgw Landstill that resembles Bardo's lists but which I've modified for a meta containing a decent amount of fast aggro decks, recursion decks (Loam, Survival) and burn decks (Burn, Goyf Sligh), few combo (Fetchland Tendrils, Belcher, TES, Breakfast usually make up for about 10-15 % of the field) and good amounts of Threshold, Baseruption and similar decks.

My record for the last six tournaments I attended (with about 20-35 players) is 3 first place finishes, 1 second place finish, one 7th place finish and one third place finish this week.

Why am I posting this ?

I think it will be helpful to get your comments (I posted it in the 'old' Landstill thread a while ago but I didn't have all the testing and tournament experience I have now) and also to show that a list without CB-Top can also win in a field of Thresholdesque decks. I basically took the Vorosh Build and went -2 Flex Slots, - CB/Top, +3 Ponder, +2 Tombstalker (fast decks call for desperate measures) and +3 StoP. The manabase and SB where also changed to suit the new list and my meta (respectively).

Draw, Cantrip (11)
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Ponder

Control (8)
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell

Board Control, Removal, etc. (11)
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Vedalken Shackles

Creatures (6)
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker

Mana (24)
4 Mishra’s Factory
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
3 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains

Sideboard (15)
4 Hyrdoblast/BEB (Burn and Goyf Sligh are rather present in my meta)
4 Leyline of the Void (Loam and Ichorid are also present enough to warrant this)
4 Meddling Mage
3 Krosan Grip

Remark: It would seem by looking at the list that getting BB for Tombstalker is a problem, but I usually use it as a late game finisher (except against Combo where I want to cast it as soon as I'm confident I can spoil their plans or already have). Also, I kept getting Extirpated and Tombstalker has helped me emptying my yard of vital cards, as Extirpate prevention/paranoia (at least it keeps my stress level low).

One thing to note, I have had alot better success against 43lands because of tarmogoyf.

With you list that you are running, which matchups have you felt like were really making you sweat? Mainly because I notice you don't run mainboard stifle which should hurt a bit,( really matters if threshold decks are running wasteland or not) Tombstalker is a great card for this Deck but I have always felt that it contradicts goyf too much to help, but if it is working for you keep up with it, If you seem to feel this sometimes, you can try to run my tech finisher, Garruk.... it gives you tokens, overrun and the one things all landstill players love more powerfull mishra's factory ( you can really freak out your opponent when you swing with a 7/7 factory, will blow their mind.)

Just a thought, I would like to see how your different matches went, cuz then we could talk about what to add in the 2 flex slots to help and to tweek the board for ya.

aTn
06-06-2008, 07:53 PM
One thing to note, I have had alot better success against 43lands because of tarmogoyf.

I never played that match-up in a tournament, but I guess having a faster clock against that deck helps.


With you list that you are running, which matchups have you felt like were really making you sweat?

Slide and Loam deck tend to be annoying with the recursion (LftL, Witness, Eternal Dragon in some builds, etc.)

I've had decent success against non-tempo builds of UGW and UGR threshold (i.e. without Wasteland, etc.).

Canadian Thresh is a bit trickier, but it's definitely manageable. Fetching intelligently helps a lot (through Stifle + Wasteland); resolving Deeds or EE activation through Stifle is sometimes annoying but having Shackles and StoP helps here also. What I find makes me win this match-up (when I'm not losing ;)) is the huge amount of removal I run and the mid/late-game casting of Tombstalker/Goyf on a freshly bug sprayed board.


Just a thought, I would like to see how your different matches went, cuz then we could talk about what to add in the 2 flex slots to help and to tweek the board for ya.

I don't have time to write a match-up analysis, but I'd say my main problem in the later rounds was Loam deck. Since Ichorid started showing it's hugly head again in my meta, I switched the Extirpates for Leylines (in the SB) and they've been good to me in both match-ups (Loam/Slide and Ichorid).

I had a bit of problems against burn decks like Goyf Sligh in the beginning simply because I didn't have time to stabilize enough to take control of the board/match, which tends to happen to me when I'm at around 8-10 life against aggro decks like Goblins, etc. Playing MD StoP helped a lot in these types of match-ups (giving the security to be able to StoP my own Goyf, etc.). The SB BEB/Hydroblast obviously make the match-up easier.

As for Meddling Mage, I'm not sold on him yet, but I like the fact that sometimes he slows the pace down enough for me to manage getting to the mid-game, where the deck generally starts kicking ass.

Ponder is also not a definitve choice, but it's been good to me until now. I like the fact that it's not as mana intensive as Top (enabling for a Ponder on my turn with enough mana to cast Counterspell in the early turns is something I like). The fact that Ponder is mana light is also nice against fast decks, from my point of view anyhow...

I might also be playing the deck all wrong. From my point of view, the Voroshesque builds are like a natural evolution/variation of Threshold that have better aggro match-ups than Threshold and good to decent chances against Threshold, depending on the build. These are the main reasons I picked up the deck in the first place.

landstill101
06-07-2008, 03:37 AM
Really leylines is prob the best thing against recursion, which isn't always what helps but it is the best landstill can do.

Against the red aggro decks, this is one of those matches where there is nothing wrong with trading 1 for 1 with explosives and deed, becasue if you can keep the damage from the creatures really low, the burn is not even close enough to kill you, plus a swords to your own goyf, with a clean board will win you matches all day.

DuKeLiO
06-09-2008, 09:03 AM
There is one main weakness to landstill and it has been said by many people but some are still not listening...............RECURSION............ That being said I guess I have to explain, landstill has a badmatchup against 42 lands, why? because they recur everything they play and you have alot of problems stopping them since counters can't stop land drops. Any deck that runs LFTL is a pain because they recur things like treetop and wasteland and such. Decks that have volrath's stronghold and academy ruins is a pain in the butt, why becuase of recursion. Landstill wins because you force the late game and control the board with card advantage, trading 1 card for 2-3-4......tons with deed if done right, and swing with manlands. But if you have to trade 1 for 1 and their 1 comes back again, you run out of options very fast. Some people have tried to answer this with such things as pithing needle(doesn't answer enough of them and is easily blown up) and extirpate but its still not enough. Hope this explained your question

I believe than the Cunning->Extirpate preboard, and 4 Extirpate with 4 Meddling Mages are enough to stop the recursion. My record against Lands! isn't very significative, beacuse I only played 2 match against it(1 win, 1 draw) but against Aggro Loam for examaple I beat it with these cards. I dislike Leyline of the Void beacuse if you do not draw it in your initial seven, probably will be too late when you can cast it.

landstill101
06-10-2008, 02:58 PM
I believe than the Cunning->Extirpate preboard, and 4 Extirpate with 4 Meddling Mages are enough to stop the recursion. My record against Lands! isn't very significative, beacuse I only played 2 match against it(1 win, 1 draw) but against Aggro Loam for examaple I beat it with these cards. I dislike Leyline of the Void beacuse if you do not draw it in your initial seven, probably will be too late when you can cast it.

Well this doesn't work for one reason, Recursion isn't just life from the loam, its also stronghold, acadamy ruins and COUNTERBALANCE(this is considered recursion because it gives free counters, but is the least effective and is easily beat if played against right.) which can't be stopped by extirpate. Plus your adding cunning which takes out 4 slots in a deck(and forces you to build a deck around wish, and leaves less flexability) and destroys your sideboard and in my opinion ruins your 2nd and 3rd game chances against many decks, just to improve your first game. I love wish in 2c decks and some few selected 3c decks but have never liked it in 4c decks, there are way to many options to put in its slots that I feel are better.

Citrus-God
06-10-2008, 07:33 PM
Well this doesn't work for one reason, Recursion isn't just life from the loam, its also stronghold, acadamy ruins and COUNTERBALANCE(this is considered recursion because it gives free counters, but is the least effective and is easily beat if played against right.) which can't be stopped by extirpate.

So you Cunning Wish for Extirpate, in which you dont remove lame threats like Goyf, you go for Counterbalance.

As for Academy, Shackles and EE doesnt hurt me, so I usually dont care.

As for Stronghold, it shouldnt matter to you because most decks that run Stronghold actually lack card advantage engines. My plan here is to usually cast a Jace or chain into draw using FoF and Standstills after removing the first one. You should EOT cycle Decree once you hit that point where you can just untap and win within 1-2 turns. But if that creature genuinely does agitate you, just CWish for Extirpate and say good riddance to it.



Plus your adding cunning which takes out 4 slots in a deck(and forces you to build a deck around wish, and leaves less flexability) and destroys your sideboard and in my opinion ruins your 2nd and 3rd game chances against many decks, just to improve your first game.

When all your Sideboards run cards that can easily be sided into the maindeck, which are usually

0-2 Disenchants/Krosan Grip
3 Extirpates
0-3 Spell Snare
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Return to Dust
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Enlighen Tutor

So to be honest, you're more than likely to siding out your Cunning Wishes anyway, so it really doesnt destroy your sideboard. Claiming that Cunning Wish in Landstill would wreck your board is just plain ignorance. I've been playing Cunning Wishes in 4c Landstill for quite awhile.

Citrus-God
06-11-2008, 03:57 AM
Wow I can't believe you could actually call me ignorant when you don't even realize your contradicting yourself. Lets go get extirpate with wish and remove that imaginary counterbalance from the graveyard. WTF is counterbalance gonna do once you put in the graveyard, NOTHING it doesn't need to be removed once its there.

You should have 3 Engineered Explosives, 4 Pernicious Deeds, and 3 Cunning Wish. Most Counterbalance decks have slow clocks, so this should allow you to keep finding ways to answer the Counterbalance.


And pls don't come on here and tell me that you will just wish for a grip, news flash the wish will never hit if balance is on board. Yes shackles does hurt you if your creatures are lands,


THEY STILL KEEP THEM AT END OF TURN, and then they laugh as they beat you with your own creature.

Why would you even activate your Factories? You genuinely have no reason to begin with, controll mirror or not, especially when they can protect their own removal with Counterbalance. I have never activated my manlands until I have complete control of the game.


And by your reasoning stronghold is not that good because of little tokens which you also said doesn't by some miracle(or prob cheating) get stopped by explosives.

Okay, I should have elaborated on my game plan here then.

1. If I can't use DoJ to win, I use it to chump block. If my opponent drops an EE for zero, then I'll go for the Counter-war then. If It's the Fear drops a Counterbalance, then I'm more than inclined to fight to keep Counterbalance from resolving, because they utilize it better than a lot of decks.

2. Just Waste it with Wasteland. If they Loam if back, I probably had enough time to drop a Humility.





Now on to this last paragraph which is the worst of all. Awsome lets take out the tool in the deck and put in 1 ofs to make up for it yay...... C'mon seriously, all your doing is making your deck worse by puttin in 1 ofs to help stop a deck when realistically you will never see that card.

You're running like 3 1-ofs? This truly isn't that big of deal to be honest. Also, you will only be using the 3-ofs and 2-ofs off the board more often than the 1-ofs. The only 1-ofs you probably have are Slaughter Pact, ETutor, and Return to Dust, so why are you complaining over how ineffective Cunning Wish is?


Against goblins you have enlightened tutor to get humility. If your lucky you will still be alive on turn 4 to play it and even if you are, they still overrun you on the next 2 turns because it will be at the earliest turn 6 before you can cycle a decree to help you pull it out of your ass then you hope they don't draw any burn to win it. (and running 4 colors means the 2 times out of 20 the trick works you cut it in half because you dont have double white.)

Okay, you have trouble getting double white in a deck that runs 4 Strands, 2 Dragons, 4 Tundras, 1 Savannah, 1 Scrubland, and 2 Plains. I counted 14 White sources, and that's more than enough to consistently cast spells to stay alive and still find Humility.



Against threshold all you have is a krosan grip to stop balance, when in reality the wish will never go off anywaze and if it does the threshold player just keeps a 3cc on top at all times just in case.( and if he doesn't then he is not a great threshold player and a skilled landstill player should win anywaze), and to throw in more laugh, while your wasting all your time to rid a counterbalance they stockpile their hand drop a goyf and goose and take the win while your still thinking of a way to stop balance.

Setting up a Engineered Explosives really isnt that hard. The Threshold player like runs like 4 Force of Wills as their only counters? Okay then, they drop CB, I EE it away, they go for a Goyf and Goose and CB, I just Wrath them away or even play another Explosives. And to be honest, I never stop CB as my first priority. In fact, I almost always let it resolve early game because I know for sure I can get around it.


And against TES you don't have a single thing to stop them, counterspells don't work with shushers and maindeck chants and stifles don't work because of chants and returns, which in all you have boned yourself by playing wish. If you play wish go to 2-3 color and you will prob not play BGU for the 3, so you should not be talking in this thread anywaze so stop spamming bad ideas.

You're siding in 3 Spell Snares, 3 Runed Halos, 3 Extirpates, and 1 ETutor. Now they've just sided out a lot of speed and velocity they have against you in favor of protection. You realize they've slowed their broken starts for a more effective game against you. You should be stopping them from getting any protection at all. I mean, they should die to 1-2 counters anyway since many players cant plan ahead like Bryant Cook anyways.

Citrus-God
06-11-2008, 10:36 AM
Here is my current list. I've been running this list ever since Konsultant introduced his Hybrid build. I always considered playing this list as my first priority in metagames with Dragon Stompy and Loam Decks non-existent.


// 4c Cunning Landstill
// Lands 23
1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Plains
1 Island


// Creatures 2
2 Eternal Dragon


// Spells 36
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Cunning Wish
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Humility
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Decree of Justice


// Sideboard 15
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Return to Dust
1 Enlighten Tutor
1 Slaughter Pact
2 Krosan Grip
3 Extirpate
3 Runed Halo
3 Spell Snare

landstill101
06-11-2008, 11:22 AM
Here is my current list. I've been running this list ever since Konsultant introduced his Hybrid build. I always considered playing this list as my first priority in metagames with Dragon Stompy and Loam Decks non-existent.


// 4c Cunning Landstill
// Lands 23
1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Plains
1 Island


// Creatures 2
2 Eternal Dragon


// Spells 36
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Cunning Wish
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Humility
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Decree of Justice


// Sideboard 15
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Return to Dust
1 Enlighten Tutor
1 Slaughter Pact
2 Krosan Grip
3 Extirpate
3 Runed Halo
3 Spell Snare

I know I have always argued that adding white just for swords is more than worth it, but adding black and green just for deed is more than a stretch. You might as well go down to 2 colors and add wrath, it could keep blood moon from every being a problem, and you could actually run back to basic in the deck. Looking at your deck just wants to make me run 4 wastelands because it would be sooo easy to keep you off 1 color. Many decks run runed halo because they don't have blue, but since you have access to both you might as well run meddling mage, it can be used to actually stop a person playing a spell, runed halo only stops cards directly targeting you.

Oh you might want to add that second plains to your build so everything you have said in posts before arn't looked at as lies. You did say you had 2 plains in you build.

raharu
06-12-2008, 12:12 AM
I know I have always argued that adding white just for swords is more than worth it, but adding black and green just for deed is more than a stretch. You might as well go down to 2 colors and add wrath, it could keep blood moon from every being a problem, and you could actually run back to basic in the deck. Looking at your deck just wants to make me run 4 wastelands because it would be sooo easy to keep you off 1 color. Many decks run runed halo because they don't have blue, but since you have access to both you might as well run meddling mage, it can be used to actually stop a person playing a spell, runed halo only stops cards directly targeting you.

Oh you might want to add that second plains to your build so everything you have said in posts before arn't looked at as lies. You did say you had 2 plains in you build.
Just reading that post made my skull hurt. He said before introducing thedecklist that it was tuned for a non-Dstompy metagame and you, upon seeing the list, attack the manabase. It's a 4c deck, of course it's going to have an issue with manadenial or mana disrupton. Threshold, which is generally a favored MU for Landstill, turns pretty dire when you throw manadisruption into the equation.

Runed Halo also isn't voulnerable to creature removal and stops threats already on the board. Not saying that Mage isn't better, but Halo does have it's positive atributes that you're blatantly excluding.

landstill101
06-12-2008, 03:52 AM
Just reading that post made my skull hurt. He said before introducing thedecklist that it was tuned for a non-Dstompy metagame and you, upon seeing the list, attack the manabase. It's a 4c deck, of course it's going to have an issue with manadenial or mana disrupton. Threshold, which is generally a favored MU for Landstill, turns pretty dire when you throw manadisruption into the equation.

Runed Halo also isn't voulnerable to creature removal and stops threats already on the board. Not saying that Mage isn't better, but Halo does have it's positive atributes that you're blatantly excluding.

My post said in a quick explaination, many many many many other decks run mana disruptions, (for example: threshold and goblins). I pretty much said that he would screw himself out of a manabase just to add 2 colors for 1 card more than needed and a single wasteland can do way too much damage.

DuKeLiO
06-12-2008, 08:25 AM
Well this doesn't work for one reason, Recursion isn't just life from the loam, its also stronghold, acadamy ruins and COUNTERBALANCE(this is considered recursion because it gives free counters, but is the least effective and is easily beat if played against right.) which can't be stopped by extirpate. Plus your adding cunning which takes out 4 slots in a deck(and forces you to build a deck around wish, and leaves less flexability) and destroys your sideboard and in my opinion ruins your 2nd and 3rd game chances against many decks, just to improve your first game. I love wish in 2c decks and some few selected 3c decks but have never liked it in 4c decks, there are way to many options to put in its slots that I feel are better.

What creatures or artifacts can play my oponent, that I have to constantly fight against? My oponent haven't more than one or two cards of this kind, and I can Extirpate it. Recurring Tarmogoyf or any artifact isn't a problem, beacuse any card than my oponent puts on top of his library is no card advantage, only, maybe, "card cuality" advantage. Also against recursive creatures I play Humility that owns almost any creature easily, and the most troublesome one, Magus of the Moon, is not played in decks with a lot of non-basic lands like Volrath's Stronghold.
Counterbalance isn't hard to fight against with the Cunning+Dismanting Blow play, and Pernicious Deed, and Engineered Explosives. I play a lot against CB Threshold, and it isn't an issue, I beat it with my list consistently.
What artifact is so dangerous to Landstill? Jester's Cap? Is someone playing it in Legacy?

Citrus-God
06-12-2008, 09:05 AM
I know I have always argued that adding white just for swords is more than worth it, but adding black and green just for deed is more than a stretch. You might as well go down to 2 colors and add wrath, it could keep blood moon from every being a problem, and you could actually run back to basic in the deck.

Back to Basics sucks in Landstill.... You run Crucible of Worlds for this reason usually.


Looking at your deck just wants to make me run 4 wastelands because it would be sooo easy to keep you off 1 color. Many decks run runed halo because they don't have blue, but since you have access to both you might as well run meddling mage, it can be used to actually stop a person playing a spell, runed halo only stops cards directly targeting you.

As long as you play against Landstill, you will always have a target with Wasteland. Oddly enough, playing against a deck like Thrash isnt a problem, my problem is Dragon Stompy.

As for Meddling Mage, I dont see it ever being good against a deck like Dragon Stompy when Runed Halo gets around Chalice, protects you from crap like Rakdos Pit Dragon, and such. Also, Meddling Mage blows against every other deck outside of Combo, but even then, I would still rather have Runed Halo because of it's versatility. Runed Halo actually stops Breakfast for good compared to Meddling Mage which can be removed by Crippling Fatigue.


Oh you might want to add that second plains to your build so everything you have said in posts before arn't looked at as lies. You did say you had 2 plains in you build.

Soo.... there's a problem with changing your build every two minutes? I'm sorry, I'm a liberal, I'm not a man of my word.

raharu
06-12-2008, 02:48 PM
My post said in a quick explaination, many many many many other decks run mana disruptions, (for example: threshold and goblins). I pretty much said that he would screw himself out of a manabase just to add 2 colors for 1 card more than needed and a single wasteland can do way too much damage.
So 4c isn't a viable decktype at all now, is it?

Tacosnape
06-12-2008, 04:14 PM
As for Meddling Mage, I dont see it ever being good against a deck like Dragon Stompy when Runed Halo gets around Chalice, protects you from crap like Rakdos Pit Dragon, and such. Also, Meddling Mage blows against every other deck outside of Combo, but even then, I would still rather have Runed Halo because of it's versatility. Runed Halo actually stops Breakfast for good compared to Meddling Mage which can be removed by Crippling Fatigue.

Runed Halo over Meddling Mage. Really? I go out of town for a few weeks and this is what happens?

They can remove Meddling Mage if they get CF in their hand or manage to roll their deck. Aw. Sad face. This would have been solved easily if for some reason you managed to get two tundras in play to cast Runed Halo, which you shouldn't.

So they have an out to Meddling Mage. Woe is us. That leaves them just having to deal with Force of Will, Counterspell, Swords to Plowshares, Diabolic Edict, Pernicious Deed, Engineered Plague, and Extirpate. How exactly are you losing to Breakfast again?

Runed Halo is awful in any Landstill other than UW due to the WW thing. It's probably still awful in UW, due to the fact that Meddling Mage exists, but I could be wrong there.

diffy
06-12-2008, 04:35 PM
Runed Halo is awful in any Landstill other than UW due to the WW thing. It's probably still awful in UW, due to the fact that Meddling Mage exists, but I could be wrong there.

I'll agree to the first part of that statement: WW isn't the easiest cost, especially in 4c Landstill. Also, note the further dis-synergy with Pernicious Deed.
On the other hand, Runed Halo is quite good in any build that can support the double white cost: it does not only act as additional copies of Meddling Mage against combo but can also be brought in for many other matchups like anything more or less relying on a singleton beater to win (e.g.: NQG - Tarmogoyf, Dreadstill - Dreadnought) and the mirror. It is also rather decent against random aggro decks where it acts as a removal/Extirpate hybrid as it actually answers a current threat but also all the other ones they're ever going to draw (Virtual Card Advantage).

You can't go as far as replacing Meddling Mage with Runed Halo though as they serve different purposes. They really only compare in both being rather decent in the combo matchups - Meddling Mage is your friend in the control matchups whereas Runed Halo comes in for most aggro decks.

Tacosnape
06-13-2008, 09:54 AM
I'll agree to the first part of that statement: WW isn't the easiest cost, especially in 4c Landstill. Also, note the further dis-synergy with Pernicious Deed.
On the other hand, Runed Halo is quite good in any build that can support the double white cost: it does not only act as additional copies of Meddling Mage against combo but can also be brought in for many other matchups like anything more or less relying on a singleton beater to win (e.g.: NQG - Tarmogoyf, Dreadstill - Dreadnought) and the mirror. It is also rather decent against random aggro decks where it acts as a removal/Extirpate hybrid as it actually answers a current threat but also all the other ones they're ever going to draw (Virtual Card Advantage).

You can't go as far as replacing Meddling Mage with Runed Halo though as they serve different purposes. They really only compare in both being rather decent in the combo matchups - Meddling Mage is your friend in the control matchups whereas Runed Halo comes in for most aggro decks.

That's a pretty fair assessment. I can see where Runed Halo is a useful card, it's just pretty much impossible to play consistently in a standard UBG or UBGW shell, where you need to be working on developing your other colors early on, and I definitely don't consider it to be anywhere close to an adequate replacement for Mage. However, as additional Mage backup in a build that can support it, sure, why not?

Mister Agent
06-13-2008, 01:52 PM
Another note I like about runed halo is it can proactively prevent those potential one for one trade offs. In other words, runed halo can give you a golden opportunity to save your wrath of gods, swords to plowshares, and etc for more critical plays down the stretch. Runed halo can act like a psuodo-humility as well as it can be utilized in many other matchups.

Ever since I added Runed halo in 2-3 color landstill decks I never looked back on taking them out. Although I still only board them in for post-board games.

Jak
06-13-2008, 02:28 PM
I have been using Taco's 4 c build and loving it. One of the most powerful decks I have ever played. My only problem with it is the fact that it loses to a Blood Moon. My meta is not swarmed at all with Dragon Stompy or anything else with Moon in it, but my friend loves playing the deck. I can't bear losing to him. What is the mana base you would run to prevent losing to a Moon? I have been trying this:

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
1 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Nantuko Monastery

Now, I still think this sucks. Still can't deal with a Blood Moon, unless I can counter it, but I have been testing an 8 blast SB. Has anyone done this? Basically, now I don't lose to a Moon. It was difficult fitting it in, but my board still looks nice.

4 Hydroblast
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Extirpate
3 Krosan Grip
1 Life from the Loam

Tacosnape
06-13-2008, 03:24 PM
I have been using Taco's 4 c build and loving it. One of the most powerful decks I have ever played. My only problem with it is the fact that it loses to a Blood Moon. My meta is not swarmed at all with Dragon Stompy or anything else with Moon in it, but my friend loves playing the deck. I can't bear losing to him. What is the mana base you would run to prevent losing to a Moon? I have been trying this:

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
1 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Nantuko Monastery

Now, I still think this sucks. Still can't deal with a Blood Moon, unless I can counter it, but I have been testing an 8 blast SB. Has anyone done this? Basically, now I don't lose to a Moon. It was difficult fitting it in, but my board still looks nice.

4 Hydroblast
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Extirpate
3 Krosan Grip
1 Life from the Loam

You might as well skip the Island. Trust me. You're going to lose more games to having it when you don't need it than you'll win to having it when you do. Besides. Dragon Stompy can drop out Moons before you get a land drop, meaning you won't even be able to fetch the thing. The best thing to do with 4C Landstill builds as far as Blood Moon is just to accept that it rapes you and try to never let it hit the board. If you can stall until turn two you get Counterspell helping, and on turn three you can drop down a Deed and have an out.

Extra blasts actually is probably the best plan, or at least the best I've come up with, though I usually stick with six rather than eight. There's no math behind that whatsoever, it's just what feels the most right when I'm metagaming against Red. Seven feels too saturated. The right number feels to be somewhere between five and six, but closer to six.

For reference, my standard blind board is:

4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Meddling Mage
3 Engineered Plague
2 Extirpate (And lest we forget #3 in maindeck, otherwise I'd board 3)
2 Krosan Grip

I've been known to go up on the Blast count, and the cuts I make are just sort of a metagame call. Krosan Grip is my usual pick to get Blasts to 6, although I've been known to go down to 2 Plagues or 3 Mages, given that the Blasts help against both Goblins and TES/Belcher respectively.

If you were going to do eight, I'd make it look like this.

4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Hydroblast
3 Meddling Mage
2 Extirpate
2 Engineered Plague/Krosan Grip

Citrus-God
06-13-2008, 04:54 PM
That's a pretty fair assessment. I can see where Runed Halo is a useful card, it's just pretty much impossible to play consistently in a standard UBG or UBGW shell, where you need to be working on developing your other colors early on, and I definitely don't consider it to be anywhere close to an adequate replacement for Mage. However, as additional Mage backup in a build that can support it, sure, why not?

Actually, in gets around Chalice for 1 against Dragon Stompy, assuming you keep Magus of the Moon from hitting the board. Also, the only reason why I run Runed Halos is because I run 14 White sources, which is the bare minimum to running cards with WW. However, the list I presented still has many UW Landstill tendencies. If you want a genuine 4c Landstill list, I suggest looking into Taco's, because even though both our decks are board control decks, mine (or konsultant's) is less aggressive and takes longer to win.

Adan
06-13-2008, 06:20 PM
That's a pretty fair assessment. I can see where Runed Halo is a useful card, it's just pretty much impossible to play consistently in a standard UBG or UBGW shell, where you need to be working on developing your other colors early on, and I definitely don't consider it to be anywhere close to an adequate replacement for Mage. However, as additional Mage backup in a build that can support it, sure, why not?

Actually, in gets around Chalice for 1 against Dragon Stompy, assuming you keep Magus of the Moon from hitting the board. Also, the only reason why I run Runed Halos is because I run 14 White sources, which is the bare minimum to running cards with WW. However, the list I presented still has many UW Landstill tendencies. If you want a genuine 4c Landstill list, I suggest looking into Taco's, because even though both our decks are board control decks, mine (or konsultant's) is less aggressive and takes longer to win.

Are you using the indefinite "you" or are you suggesting Taco's own list to himself? O.o

Citrus-God
06-13-2008, 07:13 PM
Are you using the indefinite "you" or are you suggesting Taco's own list to himself? O.o

ehh... I'm tired... I was suggesting that to everybody reading that post. merr... I mean, this is a discussion...

Tacosnape
06-15-2008, 12:42 PM
Actually, in gets around Chalice for 1 against Dragon Stompy, assuming you keep Magus of the Moon from hitting the board. Also, the only reason why I run Runed Halos is because I run 14 White sources, which is the bare minimum to running cards with WW.

There's admittedly no way this would work in the manabase of a traditional 4C manabase. Double mana symbols are bad. I suppose Halo can help in other areas (It's fun on Tendrils), but in a traditional 4C build I'd rather just have Circle of Protection: Red and get a better Burn matchup in the process. Admittedly it might work with 14 White sources, because that's what initial Goblin decks ran to pull off casting Warchief. And while the double red for Chief problem reared it's ugly head a fair bit, it was still castable more often than not.


However, the list I presented still has many UW Landstill tendencies. If you want a genuine 4c Landstill list, I suggest looking into Taco's, because even though both our decks are board control decks, mine (or konsultant's) is less aggressive and takes longer to win.


Are you using the indefinite "you" or are you suggesting Taco's own list to himself? O.o

I am an indeed a deckbuilding inspiration to myself. Every time I read my posts, I feel my stomach flutter a little. I'd go into more details, but I might have to go have some Taco Time now.

Citrus-God
06-15-2008, 01:43 PM
There's admittedly no way this would work in the manabase of a traditional 4C manabase. Double mana symbols are bad. I suppose Halo can help in other areas (It's fun on Tendrils), but in a traditional 4C build I'd rather just have Circle of Protection: Red and get a better Burn matchup in the process. Admittedly it might work with 14 White sources, because that's what initial Goblin decks ran to pull off casting Warchief. And while the double red for Chief problem reared it's ugly head a fair bit, it was still castable more often than not.

As dumb as it sounds, I never would've thought of CoP:R.... genius...

landstill101
06-15-2008, 07:43 PM
There's admittedly no way this would work in the manabase of a traditional 4C manabase. Double mana symbols are bad. I suppose Halo can help in other areas (It's fun on Tendrils), but in a traditional 4C build I'd rather just have Circle of Protection: Red and get a better Burn matchup in the process. Admittedly it might work with 14 White sources, because that's what initial Goblin decks ran to pull off casting Warchief. And while the double red for Chief problem reared it's ugly head a fair bit, it was still castable more often than not.



Finally someone agrees with me that the manabase doesn't work, I've said that a couple of times but I get shut down. I guess ill just have to pm Taco my ideas, and if he agrees with me, have him post it, everyone listens to him.

DuKeLiO
06-16-2008, 06:22 AM
You might as well skip the Island. Trust me. You're going to lose more games to having it when you don't need it than you'll win to having it when you do. Besides. Dragon Stompy can drop out Moons before you get a land drop, meaning you won't even be able to fetch the thing. The best thing to do with 4C Landstill builds as far as Blood Moon is just to accept that it rapes you and try to never let it hit the board. If you can stall until turn two you get Counterspell helping, and on turn three you can drop down a Deed and have an out.

With this (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=15694) list I have beated a lot of Dragon Stompy decks. With the Cunning->Slaughtered Pact, Cunning->Blue Elemental Blast, and the basics I have a record of X-1-1 in this matchup (where X is between 6 and 10, I cant remember the wins).

But I know than your build and mine are a very diferent aproach. However, I will change the 3 Engineered Plague for +3 Blue Elemental Blast beacuse here there are a mono red painter servant deck that is starting to be played and it is a very unfavorable matchup (8 moon efects, 6 Red Blast maindeck, and the 4 Grindstone + 4 Painter Servant).

Tacosnape
06-16-2008, 11:06 AM
As dumb as it sounds, I never would've thought of CoP:R.... genius...

They sit in my box for times when they might be needed, though lately I've been doing better with the extra Blasts in SB instead of COP: Red. The blasts do better against stopping Blood Moons, and they're nice against Aggro Loam, keeping them off Burning Wish and Devastating Dreams while I try to Extirpate them off Loam. However, if Burn were rampant, COP: Red's still a worthwhile investment.


I guess ill just have to pm Taco my ideas, and if he agrees with me, have him post it, everyone listens to him.

This is an anomaly, I promise. Most of the time nobody ever listens to anyone, which is a strange sense of functional equality that keeps people posting in desperate hopes that the next post might make a difference.

Pelikanudo
06-25-2008, 07:56 AM
Hello my friends , finally I got the tundras and then I can play the best deck¡¡¡
well I've read several landstill forums and seen several landstill decks and I really think the way to develop the deck is the DukeLio decklist way.
But I ve to add that I'd like to improve the number of responses this deck can have. I mean because landstill is a deck made of responses why to play 3 cunnin instead 4 and make the cunnin really scary ?.
A concret list of landstill I've seen carryes in the side even enlitgned tutor to get full access to the breaking enchantments and artifacts in main. I think this is a litle development because we can reduce the number of explosives and humilities
Supposing we play in this list at least 1 life , I've thoutgh in adding a single gifts ungiven as well in side to have full access to a powerfull and complete loam-engine combined with the E.E-acedemy.r engine.
Well keeping this things in mind I'll start with the list:

4 counterspell
4 FoW
4 Swords
4 Cunnin wish
4 Brainstorm
3/4 pernis
1 life from the loam
1 humility
1 Engineered explosives
2 decree of justice
1 Pact of negation
...
well part of the sideboard will be something like this:
1 gifst
1 enligthned tutor
...
and the lands configuration could be something like this: (prefer to add 25 total number of lands and take out 1 dragon substituited as card drawer by lonely and as win con. by nantuko monast.)

1 cephalid col.
1 academy ruins
1 lonely sandbar
1 nantuko monastery
1 cabal pit
4 mishras
1 nantuko monastery
1 wasteland.
1 tolaria west
...

Well with developing this strategy I'd like you my friends and mainly dukelio help me to fill the slots of the rest of cards or to change some ones..
Some cards I 've in mind to put in main are for example:
1 counterbalance, 1 gigapede, 1 senseis, 1 vedalken , X number of stifles
1 nitghmare's void, 1 pact of negation,1 vedalken, 1 masticore, 1 runed halo ...
well I've some questions:
the stifles slot in stanstill why is required? which is its main goal?

posdata: saludos duke, soy de lucas , paisano tuyo.

raharu
06-25-2008, 11:45 PM
Errr, Cunning wish x4 is kinda clunky... Test it though, I'm interested to see how it turns out.

DuKeLiO
06-26-2008, 06:17 AM
The problem is that if you play with so many tool lands, you will have a very weak manabase. If you want to play the 4 Cunning+Enlightned+Gifts, I don't think that is a bad idea, but you have to play the little "situational" cards posible:
+1 Academy Ruins
+1 Cunning Wish (If you want, but I believe they are too many)
-1 Wasteland
-1 whatever
SB:
+Gifts
-Blue Elemental Blast

I have tested Enligthned tutor, and I don't like it. Almost never I went for it with Cunning Wish. I believe than the minitoolbox is the way to go, leaving space for good cards against bad pairings.

Pelikanudo
06-26-2008, 07:48 AM
well this is the list from which i intend to develop one with more responses:
1 Eternal Dragon
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
3 Cunning Wish
4 Force of Will
2 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares

2 Decree of Justice
1 Life from the Loam

2 Humility
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Standstill


2 Engineered Explosives
land [24]

4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Plains
2 Polluted Delta
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
2 Wasteland


Sideboard:
4 Meddling Mage
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Dismantling Blow
4 Extirpate
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Slaughter Pact
3 Engineered Plague

Analisying the mana base :15 total blue mana producers, 13 white mana prod,
9 black mana, 9 green.
well, have a look to this landstill deck and its mana producers in this link:

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=13184

Well this list has Blue:16, white :10, black :9, green: 9

well the base I intend to play is as follows:
1 lonely sandbar
1 tolaria west // this land is fantastic giving us full acces to E.E, wathever
//kind of land and pact
1 wasteland
1 nantuko monastery
1 academy ruins
4 mishras
4 flooded strand
2 polluted d
4 tundras
3 tropical
3 underground sea // this slot can be -1= +1 cabal pit. I'd probably will try
//the list with the c. pit . In mirrors is not as bad to kill the mages¡

// cards lands we miss: coliseum cephalid: we really do not want to sacrifice lands. cabal pit: we have the removal creature spot of the academy ruins. but we can substitute 1 underground by 1 cabal pit in order to get the same black mana sources because we have enough blue mana producers.

blue: 18, white: 10 , black: 9, green: 9.
The differents are that mainly we dont carry no one basic. who needs to run basics?, ritgh well face magus on the moon but isn't this deck a deck doenst carry response to that? :swords,c.spell, pernis,E.E,cunnin->pact, ...
Another point is that our mana white producer is slower thatn duke list. but its the same than the list from the URL.

Well, having discussed the mana base now I'll put the main deck:
4 FoW
4 Counterspell
4 brainstorm
4 standstill
3 pernicius deed
4 cunnin wish
4 swords to plowshares
1 humillity
1 E.E
2 decree of justice
1 life from the loam

--from here 32 cards we need 3 slots more: Which I do not know which cards fit in here. Well these 3 slots can be multiple choices :

1 counterbalance
1 senseis
1 pact of negation.
OR
1 pact of negation
1 isochron scepter
1 vedalken shackless
OR
2 stifles
1 pact of negation.
...

I need advice about this multiple choices. I admit suggestions.
Well the side will be something like this :

2 Meddling Mage // I'm sorry to take 2 of them out but I need 2 slots

1 Krosan Grip //I prefer this card instead the Dismantling Blow.althoutgh this
//card can substitute a draw slot. but in here we have gifts.
1 gifts ungiven
1 enlitghned tutor
1 stifle // having 4 slots as a 4 mana cost stifle in main is a development vs
//combo
4 Extirpate // no one out ¡¡
1 Pulse of the Fields // we will never loose to burn¡
1 Slaughter Pact
3 Engineered Plague // we'll have 7 option to get a single plague in 2nd game
//vs gobbos thanks to E.Tutor

DuKeLiO
06-26-2008, 12:42 PM
Maybe you do not down the mana color count a lot, but you have removed the basic lands, Dragon (isn't a mana source but he is a good fixer) and you have replaced them for two CIPT blue lands. You aro exchanging the most stable mana sources for a very unstable ones. I wait you will go to play on a very low wasteland meta.
Also with only 4 Tundras it will be so hard to play Humility. I believe you are trying that your deck does too much.
Also in sideboard I believe Meddling Mage are more important than Engineered Plagues in any meta without a lot of goblins, and with these manabase it will be too dificult to play against Goblins.

Pelikanudo
06-26-2008, 01:10 PM
you mean that this list :

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=13184

that has got the first place in a top 8 that includes at least other 3 decks with wastelands is simply a stroke of luck. I don't think so.
I also add that this list carryes NO one basic.
and what about the other three slots I have to fill?
what cards do you suggest.
I suppose you'll suggest me at least 2 stifles+ x card ritgh?
what changes do you suggest to the list of lands maybe -1 tropical+ savanah?

I have a question Why the hell the play play stifles in a standstill deck ? what is its main goal? which is its porpose? I can understand playing a nonbasics landstill and playing stifle main. buut if this is the issue, why not to play Tithe instead?

Pelikanudo
06-26-2008, 01:47 PM
Well I have another important question about how to play a mirror between 2 identical landstill decks: what are the key spells? if to side mages or not?
will humility be a card to take out?
Anyway this is a match up that is played using your intuition.

Mister Agent
06-26-2008, 04:24 PM
There are a few points I do not like about the 2 wasteland/2 stifle configuration.

1. Your probably better off running a playset of each if you want to capitalize on the tempo disruption. Other then that they can be clunky and less effective.

2. You can actually achieve a similar task by just running tolaria west with a singleton wasteland. As well as you have cunning wish into extirpate which can supplement brilliantly with wasteland.

3. Also with more then one wasteland your actually going to throw your manabase off balance by running more colorless sources as well as making critical land drops.

4. Although, I don't like the stifle + wasteland package in a more control style landstill since your clock is too slow to take advantage of the disruption. However, I would not mind the configuation in Tombstalker landstill or even in Bardo's Vorosh list. But then again they can be much more aggressive then usual landstill decks.

As for the landstill mirror your main tools are decree of justice and as well as cunning wish for extirpate. Also obviously land recursion with wastelands can add a distinct touch as well.

Citrus-God
06-26-2008, 04:53 PM
There are a few points I do not like about the 2 wasteland/2 stifle configuration.

1. Your probably better off running a playset of each if you want to capitalize on the tempo disruption. Other then that they can be clunky and less effective.

I disagree. You dont really need to run a playset of each or an amount of 6-8 of a combination of each just to capitalize on the Tempo disruption. Honestly, it should seriously be eschewed and just concentrating on protecting the mana base. So you run Stifles to protect your mana base and disrupt combo. If you're to disrupt mana, then it is a side-function.


2. You can actually achieve a similar task by just running tolaria west with a singleton wasteland. As well as you have cunning wish into extirpate which can supplement brilliantly with wasteland.

This seems reasonable.


3. Also with more then one wasteland your actually going to throw your manabase off balance by running more colorless sources as well as making critical land drops.

The maximum amount of colorless-mana sources I believe everyone should run is 7. No more than that. 8 is a maybe....


4. Although, I don't like the stifle + wasteland package in a more control style landstill since your clock is too slow to take advantage of the disruption. However, I would not mind the configuation in Tombstalker landstill or even in Bardo's Vorosh list. But then again they can be much more aggressive then usual landstill decks.

Personally, I think Stifle is trash in Tempo-oriented Landstill decks. I personally believe that Duress/Thoughtseize performs this function better.


As for the landstill mirror your main tools are decree of justice and as well as cunning wish for extirpate. Also obviously land recursion with wastelands can add a distinct touch as well.

A card I am very fond of when playing Landstill has always been Eternal Dragon. Just recurring it Monowhite Control style is just awesome. You also run 8 Plains, so just recurring EDragon as an engine is amazing in the mirror.

Mister Agent
06-26-2008, 05:28 PM
I disagree. You dont really need to run a playset of each or an amount of 6-8 of a combination of each just to capitalize on the Tempo disruption. Honestly, it should seriously be eschewed and just concentrating on protecting the mana base. So you run Stifles to protect your mana base and disrupt combo. If you're to disrupt mana, then it is a side-function.

Yeah, you can pretty much achieve the same goals with running a more stable manabase with land recursion. As well as having more outs to whatever your opponents play like hard counters, humility, and etc.




Personally, I think Stifle is trash in Tempo-oriented Landstill decks. I personally believe that Duress/Thoughtseize performs this function better.

Well I was just referring to previous configuration strategies that have been successful in tournaments of the past. I am not sure if Duress/thoughtseize is the right call for tempo style landstill decks because it can depend on the deck and also the player.



A card I am very fond of when playing Landstill has always been Eternal Dragon. Just recurring it Monowhite Control style is just awesome. You also run 8 Plains, so just recurring EDragon as an engine is amazing in the mirror.

Well thats why I don't really like running more then a singleton wasteland especially if you have tolaria west to back it up.

Here is DIF's 4c Cunning Landstill build that I would suggest:

Lands
1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Plains
1 Polluted Delta
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath
1 Tolaria West

Creatures
1 Eternal Dragon

Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Cunning Wish
2 Decree of Justice
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of Will
2 Humility
1 Life from the Loam
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Standstill
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sideboard
1 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Engineered Plague
1 Enlightened Tutor
3 Extirpate
4 Meddling Mage
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Seed Spark
1 Slaughter Pact

I like DIF's list because incorporating cunning wish in a 4c landstill build is just stellar in my opinion. The deck's manabase is also well balanced and it runs quite smoothly for a 4 color deck. It's also one of the most flexible landstill lists I have played in awhile.

DuKeLiO
06-27-2008, 05:44 AM
I don't use Stifle to have a tempo advantage, I only use it to not loss tempo against my oponents. Also it disrupt combo as Anti-American said.
Also wasteland are here to destroy some problematic lands like Volrath's Stronghold, but I rarely go for the Life from the Loam->Wasteland lock. Only if my oponent is playing another 4C deck without basics I go for this route, and only to color screw him.
I don't like the Tolaria West/Wasteland split. Tolaria West is a very bad land to play it beacuse the CIPT. I've played a lot of times Standstill in my second turn without more lands in hand, and if one of them is a CIPT land, this will be an horrible situation. Also I saw than DIF are running 25 lands, than helps against the mana denial, but Stifle turns out a tempo loss into a tempo win with the land drop lost for my oponent, and a lot of times a wasteland in one of my lands is a time walk for my oponent (for example with creatures attacking me , or simply with a Aether vial in the table).

Mister Agent
06-27-2008, 02:17 PM
Well if storm combo is prominant in your meta then stifle would be a good call in landstill. Otherwise, I don't see how it would be better then running other utility cards in stifle's place. Considering if you have a stable manabase/land recursion you won't have to worry about protecting your lands.

I also don't think tolaria's tempo loss is necassarily a good reason to not to include it. Especially if your running 25 lands which enables tolaria west to operate under solid efficiency. I mean tolaria's utility function of either fetching for any land or engineered explosives negates it's drawback substantially.

LinkXwing
07-01-2008, 06:10 AM
I also don't think tolaria's tempo loss is necassarily a good reason to not to include it. Especially if your running 25 lands which enables tolaria west to operate under solid efficiency. I mean tolaria's utility function of either fetching for any land or engineered explosives negates it's drawback substantially.

However, the fact that you can only transmute as a sorcery is itself a HUGE drawback and is singlehandedly the reason I don't run Tolaria West anymore. I had it in the deck for months, but the fact that it taps me out or comes into play tapped screws over my early game enough to warrent not having it. The only time it really shines is late-game where I can afford to tap 1UU plus still have counterspell/swords/brainstom/FoF mana open (and/or mana to activate a deed/E.E. in play). In that special case, I think I can trust my draw package to find me the 3 or 4 of that I really need.



On a completely seperate note, at the Dual for Duals I ran the sideboard of:

4 Chill
4 B.E.B.
4 Extirpate
3 Tormod's Crypt

and absolutely LOVED it all tournament long and at all my playtest sessions. Four-color Landstill for the most part is a board control deck that essentially just packs the best cards in the format. The only truly bad matchups I forsee is VERY fast aggro + Burn, strait Burn, and graveyard based/graveyard recursion decks (i.e. anything that truly abuses loam or witness).

I felt having only 4 cards to deal with Ichirod wasn't going to cut it so I ran 4 Tormod's Crypt and 4 Leyline for a while. Well, that beats the crap out of Ichorid, but that doesn't do crap versus anything with witness or loam so I swapped the Leylines for Extirpate which is not as solid in the Ichorid matchup, but usually 8 hate cards of almost any variety will be enough.

Then I looked at all those decks packing lots of burn and/or Blood Moon. I came to the same conclusion that I wanted 8 pieces of hate to actually stand a chance games 2 and 3. As a bonus, Chill absolutely is a wrecking ball against burn/sleigh and will help slightly against any deck accelerating into Empty the Warrens. Chill doesn't do much against goblins, but my matchup isn't that bad to begin with, so I can live with only BEB against them with my other board control cards.

I don't believe the maindeck of Uwgb Landstill really has any other worthwhile matchups to sideboard for unless I'm just randomly forgetting something. (Edit: Ok, fuck it, I'm going to lose the Solidarity matchup.)

klaus
07-01-2008, 06:57 AM
4 Chill
4 B.E.B.
4 Extirpate
3 Tormod's Crypt

I don't believe the maindeck of Uwgb Landstill really has any other worthwhile matchups to sideboard for unless I'm just randomly forgetting something.

Stax games can be frustrating without additional artifact hate and Geddon protection (M. Mage).

Spanish Inquisition, Fetchland Tendrills, Iggy Pop, Cephalid Breakfast and decks packing Back to Basics also come to mind.

LinkXwing
07-01-2008, 08:04 AM
Stax games can be frustrating without additional artifact hate and Geddon protection (M. Mage).

Spanish Inquisition, Fetchland Tendrills, Iggy Pop, Cephalid Breakfast and decks packing Back to Basics also come to mind.

Between Counterspell, Force of Will, and Pernicious deed I've never had trouble with Mono-W Stax. In the first 5-8 turns there really has never been more than 1 lock piece that's needed to be removed in playtest games. I can work under Trinisphere, tabernacle effects, smokestack, supression field, ghostly prison, hell even a single armageddon, just not all of them at once.

I have not tested against Spanish Inquisition and have never seen it in action so I can't comment on it.

I have also not playtested Fetchland Tendrils or Iggy Pop since I removed stifles and they have added Orim's Chant so I can't comment on the matchup there, but Extirpate still seems mighty savage.

I have yet to lose a match to any Breakfast list in playtest sessions or tournament matches with Landstill, we just completely pwn their board and pwn thier graveyard too in games 2 and 3.

Back to Basics is mighty savage against any 4 color deck. However, there are still 8 counters and 7 ways to remove it if for some reason it does resolve. I still do run 3 basics and 6 fetches in my list.

klaus
07-01-2008, 10:11 AM
Between Counterspell, Force of Will, and Pernicious deed I've never had trouble with Mono-W Stax. In the first 5-8 turns there really has never been more than 1 lock piece that's needed to be removed in playtest games. I can work under Trinisphere, tabernacle effects, smokestack, supression field, ghostly prison, hell even a single armageddon, just not all of them at once.


...Sounds like your referring to G1s exclusively.
Games 2/3 get way tougher if your facing stuff like Defense Grid, Needle or an entire playset of S. Fields, Karmic Justice, Disenchant (Deed), additional O. Rings the list goes on.
And Supression Field pretty much wrecks your entire removal kit (also take into account that a playset of Wastelands and/or Suppressionfields does not even need Crucible recursion/Geddon effects to keep your mana base down - as to stop Deed from functioning).

No doubt about Deed being the key card in this MU it's still not a favorable MU with your sideboard - that's all I'm saying.

klaus
07-04-2008, 11:51 AM
So I'm going to attend a 30-40 people tournament in a couple of days with this list.
Here we go:

MAINDECK: (thoughts?)
[Q: How can I possibly improve my Aggro Loam MU without weakening the others?]

4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to PLowshares
4 Counterspell
1 Spellsnare (formerly E. Dragon - I want a slightly better ComboMU, though)
2 Stifle
3 Deed
2 Humility
2 Decree of Justice
2 Cunnning Wish
1 Jace
1 Life from the Loam
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Crime/Punishment
(36)

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
1 Scrubland
2 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Nantuko Monastery
1 Island
1 Plains
(24)

SB:
4 M. mage
3 Extirpate
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Runed Halo
1 Enlightened Tutor (Wish target and SB toolbox enabler)
1 Slaughter Pact
1 BEB
1 Pulse of the Fields (How come nobody calls them P.O.T.Fields?!?)
1 Dismantling Blow
1 Engineered Plague




MY NERDY BOARDING PLAN (thoughts?)
ICHO
OUT: 4 Standstill, 1CS, 1 Spellsnare, 1 Jace, 2 Wish, 1 LftL, 1 Decree
IN: 3 Extirpate, 1 Crypt, 3 Magi, 1 Halo, 1 Tutor, 1 Plague, 1 Pulse

DRAGON STOMPY:
OUT: 2 Stifle, 2 Wish
IN: 1 D. Blow, 1 BEB, Pact, 1 Tutor

Faerie Stompy:
OUT: 2Stifle, 2 Wish
IN: 1 Blow, 1 Tutor, 1 Pact, 1 Halo/POTfields

MIRROR: (DEPENDING ON BUILD)
OUT: 2 Wish, 2 Humi, 1 Crime, 1 STP ***
IN: 3 Extirate, 1 Blow, 2 Magi

GOBS:
OUT: 1 Standstill, 2 Wish, 1 Jace, 1 Spellsnare
IN: 1 Plague, 1 BEB, 1 Pulse, 1 Pact, 1 Tutor

AGGRO LOAM:
OUT: 1 Decree, 2 Wish, 1 Jace, 1 Spellsnare,
IN: 3 Extirpate, 1 Crypt, 1 BEB

43LAND:
OUT: 2 Decree, 2 Wish, 4 Standstill, 1 Crime, 2 Humi
IN: 3 Extirpate, 1 Crypt, 4 Magi, 1 Halo, 1 D. Blow, 1 Pulse

STAX (DEPENDING ON BUILD)
2 SS (Factory?), 2 Wish, 2 Humi, 1 Decree ***
IN: 1 D. Blow, 4 Magi, 2 Extirpate

DEADGUY
OUT: 1 Decree, 2 Wish
IN: 1 Halo, 2 Extirpate

HIGH TIDE
OUT: 2 Humi, 3 Deed, 1 C/P, 3 STP
IN: 4 Magi, 1 Halo, 3 Extirpate, 1 Tutor,

TES
OUT: 2 Humi, 1 Decree, 2 Wish, 4 STP, 1 LftL
IN: 3 Extirpate, 4 Magi, 1 BEB, 1 Halo, 1 Plague

BELCHER
OUT: 2 Humi, 1 Decree, 2 Wish, 4 STP, 1 LftL
IN: 2 Extirpate, 4 Magi, 1 BEB, 1 Halo, 1 Plague, 1 Pulse

SURVIVAL
OUT: 2 Wish, 1 Jace, 1 C/P, 1 Stifle, 1 Decree, 1 LftL
IN: 3 Extirpate, 1 Crypt, 1 Tutor, 1 Blow, 1 Pact

NQG (DEPENDING ON BUILD)
OUT: 2 Stifle (2 Wish?) ***
IN: 1 Halo, 1 Pate, (1POT, 1 Tutor)

MUC
OUT: 1 Humi, 2 Wish
IN: 1 Blow, 2 Mage

PAINTER:
OUT: 2 Wish, 1 Decree, 1 LftL, 2 Stifle ***
IN: 1 BEB, 1 Tutor, 1 Pact, 2 Magi, 1 D. Blow

NOUGHT.DEC:
OUT: 2 Wish, 1 Decree,
IN: 1 Blow, 1 Extirpate, 1 Pact

FT
OUT: 2 Humi, 1 Decree, 2 Wish, 4 STP, 1 LftL
IN: 4 Magi, 1 Halo, 3 Pate, 1Tutor, 1 Crypt


SLIVERS, MERFOLK, ELVES:
OUT: 1 Standstill, 2 Wish, 1 Jace,
IN: 1 Plague, 1 Tutor, 1 Pulse, 1 Pact

BURN
OUT: 2 Humi, 3 Deed, 1 Jace
IN: 1 BEB, 4 Magi, 1 Halo

POX:
OUT: 2 Wish, 2 Decree, 1 Deed
IN: 3 Extirpate, 1 Halo, 1 D. Blow,

WW
OUT: 2 Wish, 1 Standstill
IN: 1 Tutor, 1 Pulse, 1 Pact

THE ROCK:
OUT: 1 Jace, 2 Wish,
IN: 1 Extirpate, 1 Crypt, 1 Tutor

Affinity
OUT: 2 Wish, 1 Jace, 2 Stifle
IN: 1 Pact, 1 Blow, 1 Pulse, 1 Tutor, 1 Halo

ALUREN
OUT: 2 Wish, 1 Loam, 1 C/P, 2 Decree, 1 Deed
IN: 1 Tutor, 1 Blow, 4 Magi, 1 Extirpate

Reanimator
OUT: 1 EE, 2 Deed, 1 LftL, 1 Jace, 1 Tropical, 2 Wish
IN: 1 Crypt, 3 Extirpate, 1 Halo, 1 Tutor, 2 Magi


THX 4 READING!

matelml
07-06-2008, 12:52 PM
I would like to hear if this deck looks any good and if there are some obvious improvements. I am used to playing combo only, but feel like playing something different this time. I do not own all the cards, but am testing it and might buy them. But definitely no Goyfs.
This deck isn't really landstill, but this seemed the most appropriate thread, if not please let me know. I could make a new thread in New and Developmental, but I don't think it's new enough, more a variation on a very old theme.

Loamstill

4 Standstill
2 Gifts Ungiven
1 Fact or Fiction
4 Brainstorm

4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
2 Mana Leak
2 Spell Snare

3 Shriekmaw
1 Innocent Blood
1 Smother
1 Diabolic Edict

4 Pernicious Deed
2 Engineered Explosives

1 Life from the Loam
1 Gigapede
1 Eternal Witness

1 Lonely Sandbar
1 Barren Moor
1 Academy Ruins
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Mutavault
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Swamp

Sb:
4 LotV
4 CotV
3 Krosan Grip
3 Extirpate
1 Grave-shell Scarab/Spell Snare

I think I'll explain when I have more time. The obvious questions are: why no Wastelands, Intuitions instead of Gifts, no Crucible. I'll edit those in and probably some more later.

Citrus-God
07-06-2008, 05:54 PM
Actually, if you want to make some changes, I think you should re-do your entire deck and play Tacosnape's 4c Landstill build. It's probably the most 4c build I have ever played with unlike the BHWW lists which force you to mull aggressively.

Dani Montana
07-07-2008, 07:26 PM
Hi,
I've been testing many Ubg Lists for a long time now. But at the moment I'm a little bit suprised, about how this discusion developed. A few months ago you recognized the enormous potential of intuition in this deck, but now I see no Deck with I-Toolbox or something. Instead you are running wish (???). Are you kidding? Please try out Intuition. It works a lot better.

Here is one of my lists:

3x Intuition
4x standstill
1x life from the loam
1x constant mists
4x force of will
4x counterspell
3x thoughtseize
4x brainstorm
2x jace
4x perniscious deed
1x EE
2x vendetta
2x diabolic edict

4x mishras factory
1x wasteland
1x academy ruins
1x cephalid coliseum
4x usea
3x tropical
4x flooded strand
3x Delta
1x island
1x Tolarian West
---58

SB:
1x ee
2x e. plague
3x Tormods crypt
2x needle
2x spell snare
2x grip
3x extirpate
----15

The Maindeck consists of 58 cards at the moment, so you can add two more.
I've tested shackles, but I didnt't like it, because you try to empty the board, so theres nothing to shackle. I don't like goyf here, because it dies of deed/Ee. At the moment I'm testing stalker and nought, but my testing isn't finished yet.

The maindeck is very good I think, but I miss a real wincondition. Do you have any other Ideas, I did not mentioned yet?

landstill101
07-07-2008, 09:20 PM
Hi,
I've been testing many Ubg Lists for a long time now. But at the moment I'm a little bit suprised, about how this discusion developed. A few months ago you recognized the enormous potential of intuition in this deck, but now I see no Deck with I-Toolbox or something. Instead you are running wish (???). Are you kidding? Please try out Intuition. It works a lot better.

Here is one of my lists:

3x Intuition
4x standstill
1x life from the loam
1x constant mists
4x force of will
4x counterspell
3x thoughtseize
4x brainstorm
2x jace
4x perniscious deed
1x EE
2x vendetta
2x diabolic edict

4x mishras factory
1x wasteland
1x academy ruins
1x cephalid coliseum
4x usea
3x tropical
4x flooded strand
3x Delta
1x island
1x Tolarian West
---58

SB:
1x ee
2x e. plague
3x Tormods crypt
2x needle
2x spell snare
2x grip
3x extirpate
----15

The Maindeck consists of 58 cards at the moment, so you can add two more.
I've tested shackles, but I didnt't like it, because you try to empty the board, so theres nothing to shackle. I don't like goyf here, because it dies of deed/Ee. At the moment I'm testing stalker and nought, but my testing isn't finished yet.

The maindeck is very good I think, but I miss a real wincondition. Do you have any other Ideas, I did not mentioned yet?

Well one thing I would do is take out the jace(which I've have never been a fan of) and the constant mist and add the tarmogoyfs and one witness so you can run volraths stronghold in the deck, you are able to get it easily with intuition and with loam it makes recursion easier obv. the one thing that will help is take out 1 deed and add another explosives or add 2 explosives to make it a 3 e.e and 2 deed and such(I would test both out to see which one you like) because then it is easier to get E.E. for multi recursion with acadamy(this also helps against threshold which run main deck stifles and side grips.). The only deck right now that takes advantage of intuition is ITF which is in the established deck forum(which you could use to help with other ideas for the deck.)

I wouldn't also give up on shackles, with an up on E.E. shackles really can be the bomb in many matchups such as threshold where dropping a shackles means he can only play mongooses which die easily to E.E. and against goblins if you stop first turn lacky, on turn four when you can use shackles they at the usually have 3-4 creatures out which taking a piledriver really hurts them, and toppled with E.E. and deed it makes this matchup a hell of alot of fun.

Also just from my expierence of playing 4c landstill for a very long time and now playing ITF, you might want to take a fetch or duel out to add a bayou or 2 to help against any deck that doesnt run blue, because usually they run green for goyf which means 3 chokes come in every time for side, and having that fetch to get a bayou could mean game saver to help cast deed or E.E.(plus this helps against a wasteland+extirpate on trop or sea to cut off a single color.)

i_need_the_extra_turns
07-10-2008, 10:43 AM
MAINDECK: (thoughts?)
[Q: How can I possibly improve my Aggro Loam MU without weakening the others?]

4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to PLowshares
4 Counterspell
1 Spellsnare (formerly E. Dragon - I want a slightly better ComboMU, though)
2 Stifle
3 Deed
2 Humility
2 Decree of Justice
2 Cunnning Wish
1 Jace
1 Life from the Loam
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Crime/Punishment
(36)

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
1 Scrubland
2 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Nantuko Monastery
1 Island
1 Plains
(24)

SB:
4 M. mage
3 Extirpate
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Runed Halo
1 Enlightened Tutor (Wish target and SB toolbox enabler)
1 Slaughter Pact
1 BEB
1 Pulse of the Fields (How come nobody calls them P.O.T.Fields?!?)
1 Dismantling Blow
1 Engineered Plague


To the maindeck:
I would highly recommend to play 3 Explosives. U can cut the crime/p.
I would also prefer a split loam / crucible or play 2 CoW. There for u can cut the 2 stifles. The stifles in Landstill are a defensive element, they are helping vs early wastelands etc.. U have loam and CoW for that.
=> -crime/punishment
-2 stifles
+2 EE
+1 CoW

When u want to improve your loam matchup, I would play the third cunning wish, which enables extirpates in the first game. You can cut the random spell snare or the jace. I really don't like the jace, because it is only nice when the board is cleared.
Manabase:
I would change one nantuko to a wasteland.
In my 4c list, I play 25 Lands 2 wastelands, 1 Nantuko.

The board looks quite solid. I would play +1 Extirpate instead of the random crypt and +1 BEB for the dismanting blow, but that is a meta game choice.




MY NERDY BOARDING PLAN (thoughts?)


TES
OUT: 2 Humi, 1 Decree, 2 Wish, 4 STP, 1 LftL
IN: 3 Extirpate, 4 Magi, 1 BEB, 1 Halo, 1 Plague

I would side out the deed's ( u have EE too) and let the STP in, because of shusher and dark confidant. The same for FT.

ChiiMagic
07-10-2008, 02:36 PM
I would cut the cunning wishes, and definitely run at least 3 stifles in your main deck. When i was playing the 4 color build of this I also got REALLY frustrated with aggro loam cuz they just blow out your mana base, but the thing to remember it to use your fetchlands wisely. Ideally you will want to hold them in play until you can drop a crucible on them, using FOW to stall out their tutors for LFTL. Also, I started to SB Groundseal against them. Its ridiculous. It completely shuts down their loam and unless they can hull breach it or something out of their board its GG for them. Oh, and it draws you a card!! lol

Frenger
07-10-2008, 03:21 PM
I've recently picked up this deck and am quite surprised by it's power. For reference here's the list i'm working with:

Land [24]

4 Flooded Strand
1 Tolaria West
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Nantuko Monastary
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Academy Ruins
1 Wasteland
1 Island
1 Plains


instant [24]

4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
3 Fact or Fiction
4 Force of Will
3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Diabolic Edict

enchantment [8]

4 Pernicious Deed
4 Standstill

artifact [4]

2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Engineered Explosives

sideboard [15] *still very much in the works*
4x Medding Mage
4x Extirpate (for aggro loam etc)
4x Blue Elemental Blast (for dragon stompy)
3x Krosan Grip

Now, the catch is that I've just moved this week to Paris France and, from what I've gathered, the meta is Aggro and Control with almost no combo. The Enlightened Tutors used to be Stifle but i cut that for the meta.

Could some European landstill players suggest changes or tweaks to the above list to prevail in the European, specifically French meta? I've already been to legacy-france.com and posted my list there, the above list is actually after help from the users there.

Please note, I only need suggestions to help this deck perform well in the European metagame.

Thanks in advance!

klaus
07-10-2008, 06:06 PM
I've recently picked up this deck and am quite surprised by it's power. For reference here's the list i'm working with:

Land [24]

4 Flooded Strand
1 Tolaria West
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Nantuko Monastary
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Academy Ruins
1 Wasteland
1 Island
1 Plains


instant [24]

4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
3 Fact or Fiction
4 Force of Will
3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Diabolic Edict

enchantment [8]

4 Pernicious Deed
4 Standstill

artifact [4]

2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Engineered Explosives

sideboard [15] *still very much in the works*
4x Medding Mage
4x Extirpate (for aggro loam etc)
4x Blue Elemental Blast (for dragon stompy)
3x Krosan Grip


Thanks in advance!

-3 Tutors - you play enough of each enchantment and artifact to find it without additional tutors - they just slow you down too much.
If you play Tolaria West, you can cut 1 Monastery and add 2 more Polluted Delta (25 lands are just about perfect) - and never player fewer than 6 Fetchlands in a 4 color build, ever.
This leaves you with 2 open slots.
You can fill those with 2 Cunning Wish. Those make your game 1s stronger and open up 3 slots in your sideboard. (-1 Extirpate, -1 BEB, -1 Grip). You can replace those with 1 Pulse of the Fields/1 Enlightened Tutor/1 Slaughter Pact (Dragon Stompy).
Why don't you play Humlity in the main? It's the best answer to aggro heavy metas. - You could cut 2 Edicts for them. Don't forget to adjust your mana base then.
Basically you'd end up with a 4color version that is quite close to my list (see above). I'm really in love with the deck...
Just test it and you'll see...:wink:

Frenger
07-10-2008, 08:14 PM
-3 Tutors - you play enough of each enchantment and artifact to find it without additional tutors - they just slow you down too much.
If you play Tolaria West, you can cut 1 Monastery and add 2 more Polluted Delta (25 lands are just about perfect) - and never player fewer than 6 Fetchlands in a 4 color build, ever.
This leaves you with 2 open slots.
You can fill those with 2 Cunning Wish. Those make your game 1s stronger and open up 3 slots in your sideboard. (-1 Extirpate, -1 BEB, -1 Grip). You can replace those with 1 Pulse of the Fields/1 Enlightened Tutor/1 Slaughter Pact (Dragon Stompy).
Why don't you play Humlity in the main? It's the best answer to aggro heavy metas. - You could cut 2 Edicts for them. Don't forget to adjust your mana base then.
Basically you'd end up with a 4color version that is quite close to my list (see above). I'm really in love with the deck...
Just test it and you'll see...:wink:

The reason I don't run humility main is because the WW is hard to support, plus with 4 deed and 2 EE (with tolaria and academy) I don't think it would be necessary.

I like cunning wish over the tutors due to the added versatility and strengthening of g1's, but I've never tested wish yet (because i only own 1 >_>) and i definitely think I'll try it out.

I am hesitant to cut a monastary though, as I've always found it to be incredibly powerful and first strike is so nice, although it is conditional (threshold).

I've thought about increasing the fetch count but never found anything to cut. Edicts could go, but in an aggro heavy meta i'd hate to see them go.

Do you think i could cut 1 EE instead of a monastary? They're both fetchable with tolaria west but the difference is that monastary is good in duplicates (in the late game at least) whereas EE has deed to support it and Academy to reoccur it, and I would rather have a monastary to a mishras late game, so running two seems logical. Also, there's always wish -> tutor -> EE haha. ...But I could be wrong here.

So it'd be:
-3 E. Tutor
-1 EE

+2 Cunning Wish
+2 Delta

with the obvious SB changes for wish.

Edit: SB's looking like:

4 Meddling Mage
3 Extirpate
3 Krosan Grip (i wonder if i should make this castable/replace so it's useful against blood moon which is prevalent in the meta here)
2 Blue Elemental Blast (increase for d. stompy, or decrease for another wish target?)
1 E. Tutor
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Slaughter Pact

i_need_the_extra_turns
07-11-2008, 08:43 AM
I've recently picked up this deck and am quite surprised by it's power. For reference here's the list i'm working with:

Land [24]

4 Flooded Strand
1 Tolaria West
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Nantuko Monastary
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Academy Ruins
1 Wasteland
1 Island
1 Plains


instant [24]

4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
3 Fact or Fiction
4 Force of Will
3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Diabolic Edict

enchantment [8]

4 Pernicious Deed
4 Standstill

artifact [4]

2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Engineered Explosives

sideboard [15] *still very much in the works*
4x Medding Mage
4x Extirpate (for aggro loam etc)
4x Blue Elemental Blast (for dragon stompy)
3x Krosan Grip


Thanks in advance!

To the manabase:
First u need more Fetchlands, I would suggest 6 Fetchies (+2 Deltas), u can cut one nantuko and tolaria west. In my first builds, I tried tolaria west, too. But the Problem is:
1. Transmute has no instant speed
2. Transmute has no instant speed
3. Transmute has no instant speed.

And when u have to play tolaria as a land, it comes into play tapped.
And when u play tolaria west, i wouldn't count it as a land.
To nantuko: 4 mishra + 1 Nantuko + Decree are really enough win conditions.
Then I would cut 1 u-sea and 1 Tropical for savannah + scrubland, because an extirpate on tropical or u-sea can completly isolate u from G or B (and u play 4 (!) Deed's).

Overall:
-1 Nantuko
-1 Tolaria West
-1 U-sea
-1 Tropical
+2 delta
+1 savannah
+1 scrubland

To the maindeck:
On the first look I miss two things:
Where the hell is humility and decree of justice?
Humility is such an insane strong card, it wins u just randomly games AND it is like an Platinum angel. It interacts with your manlands (remember mishra is 2/2) and the decree. This brings me to the second question: Where is the decree? It is the perfect finisher, u can cycle it EOT for 10 tokens and it nice with humility or to chump block etc.
U have to play cunning wish, u can cut the enlight. Tutor. Why is this so?
I know that the enlightened tutor is very strong, it gives u standstill, deed, humility etc. BUT it doesnot help u in your problem matchups like aggro loam. Therefor the cunning wish gives u preboard the extirpate, which helps u a lot. The enlightened tutor is also in the board. U can just play EOT: cunning wish->Enlightened Tutor->Humility->GG
I prefer a 3/3 split between Deed's and EE's. The EE's are very strong and they are less mana intensive than the deed. This helps u to come in the lategame.

Overall:
-3 enlightened Tutor
-2 Diabolic edict ( that is just too much, EE can do much more here.)
-1 Deed
-1 FoF (2 Fact ot Fictions are enough)

+2 Cunning wish
+2 Humility
+1 EE
+2 Decree of Justice

I hope this could help.

Mr Wiggl3s
07-11-2008, 08:55 AM
Humility is such an insane strong card, it wins u just randomly games

humility doesn't win games, it ends games

Frenger
07-11-2008, 12:48 PM
To the manabase:
First u need more Fetchlands, I would suggest 6 Fetchies (+2 Deltas), u can cut one nantuko and tolaria west. In my first builds, I tried tolaria west, too. But the Problem is:
1. Transmute has no instant speed
2. Transmute has no instant speed
3. Transmute has no instant speed.

And when u have to play tolaria as a land, it comes into play tapped.
And when u play tolaria west, i wouldn't count it as a land.
To nantuko: 4 mishra + 1 Nantuko + Decree are really enough win conditions.
Then I would cut 1 u-sea and 1 Tropical for savannah + scrubland, because an extirpate on tropical or u-sea can completly isolate u from G or B (and u play 4 (!) Deed's).

Overall:
-1 Nantuko
-1 Tolaria West
-1 U-sea
-1 Tropical
+2 delta
+1 savannah
+1 scrubland

To the maindeck:
On the first look I miss two things:
Where the hell is humility and decree of justice?
Humility is such an insane strong card, it wins u just randomly games AND it is like an Platinum angel. It interacts with your manlands (remember mishra is 2/2) and the decree. This brings me to the second question: Where is the decree? It is the perfect finisher, u can cycle it EOT for 10 tokens and it nice with humility or to chump block etc.
U have to play cunning wish, u can cut the enlight. Tutor. Why is this so?
I know that the enlightened tutor is very strong, it gives u standstill, deed, humility etc. BUT it doesnot help u in your problem matchups like aggro loam. Therefor the cunning wish gives u preboard the extirpate, which helps u a lot. The enlightened tutor is also in the board. U can just play EOT: cunning wish->Enlightened Tutor->Humility->GG
I prefer a 3/3 split between Deed's and EE's. The EE's are very strong and they are less mana intensive than the deed. This helps u to come in the lategame.

Overall:
-3 enlightened Tutor
-2 Diabolic edict ( that is just too much, EE can do much more here.)
-1 Deed
-1 FoF (2 Fact ot Fictions are enough)

+2 Cunning wish
+2 Humility
+1 EE
+2 Decree of Justice

I hope this could help.

If i don't run Tolaria West is it worth it to run the 1x Wasteland and 1x Academy? Also, wouldn't cutting Tolaria make running just 1 Nantuko less good?

i_need_the_extra_turns
07-11-2008, 01:16 PM
The one academy is still nice and fits in the deck. One Nantuko is enough because u have other win conditions like the decree.
With the wastelands it is very interesting. Some players have cutted them from their lists, but I still like them. They help with random stronghold, they are very strong in the control mirror etc.
For me, it was the question: Tolaria or the 2nd Wasteland.
Now, I play 2 wastelands (25 lands), referring to my meta it is very usefull.

greetz

jazzykat
07-19-2008, 04:24 AM
Playing an ancient BHWC list I went 4-0 tonight in a local tournament not even dropping a game. I played 4 thoughtseize MD and my SB was an abomination for a national meta but was brutal for the local one.

My questions are 2 fold:

1. Is Thoughtseize awesome? I feel like every time I played it it was bomblicious as I cast it fearlessly and grabbed everything from muscle sliver to force of will.

2. As to these lists recently posted: the deck looks differently and I don't understand why the discard has been minimized or nearly cut.

BTW: If someone wants the list I will post it but I am starting to think this is one of the most meta dependent decks I have encountered.

Pelikanudo
07-21-2008, 07:52 AM
Hello my friends , I need advice about how to side versus the different decks that are in the meta if you play this list :

1 Eternal Dragon

instant [21]
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
3 Cunning Wish
4 Force of Will
2 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares

sorcery [3]
2 Decree of Justice
1 Life from the Loam

enchantment [9]
2 Humility
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Standstill

artifact [2]
2 Engineered Explosives

land [24]
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Plains
2 Polluted Delta
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
2 Wasteland
60 cards
Sideboard:

4 Meddling Mage
4 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Dismantling Blow
4 Extirpate
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Slaughter Pact

this list is from Duke Lio ,could you tell me how to side with this list? specially in the gobbos match up.
Thanks

Tacosnape
07-23-2008, 07:34 PM
Playing an ancient BHWC list I went 4-0 tonight in a local tournament not even dropping a game. I played 4 thoughtseize MD and my SB was an abomination for a national meta but was brutal for the local one.

My questions are 2 fold:

1. Is Thoughtseize awesome? I feel like every time I played it it was bomblicious as I cast it fearlessly and grabbed everything from muscle sliver to force of will.

Yes, but not maindeck. Thoughtseize is going to bite you in the ass when you get in games where you're both in topdeck mode and you need to draw counters, removal, or additional draw to stay in control. Thoughtseize will suck in this situation and cost you games. Other 4C Landstill builds generally need only to avoid land, Stifle, or sometimes Loam here.

I've been personally testing it in my 4C sideboard, though, and I do like it, though I'm unsure if I have room for it.

Illissius
07-23-2008, 07:48 PM
I generally consider Thoughtseize for the Stifle/Spell Snare slot, which aren't awesome topdecks either. The biggest barrier usually ends up being the blue card count.

Nihil Credo
07-23-2008, 08:21 PM
Spell Snare is by no means a bad topdeck. Tarmogoyf, Standstill, Burning Wish, Survival of the Fittest are still quite threatening on turn 30.

Tacosnape
07-24-2008, 02:22 AM
Spell Snare is by no means a bad topdeck. Tarmogoyf, Standstill, Burning Wish, Survival of the Fittest are still quite threatening on turn 30.

But the point is that it's not a surefire solution to whatever threat your opponent topdecks, where almost everything else in the deck is.

However, yes, Snare is a much better mid-to-late game topdeck for Landstill than Stifle or Thoughtseize. That said, I'd still rather almost always have Stifle or Snare than Thoughtseize given that Thoughtseize isn't reactive like the rest of the deck, nor is it blue.

DuKeLiO
07-24-2008, 08:33 AM
@Pelikanudo
It depends on the build. If they play Rishadan Port, probably swap the counterspell for BEB, if not -1 Cunning -2 Standstill -Eternal Dragon +4 BEB

In the most other matchup usually swap the less useful removal in the pairing for Meddling Mage and/or Extirpate. Stifle is also sideout a lot.

Pelikanudo
07-24-2008, 09:58 AM
Well , I'm quite sacred to face a Gobbos match up and loosing, somenthig I dont want is loosing 1st game, cause 2nd and 3rd game vs gobbos playing even 4 E.Plague and 4 BeB you can loose anyway, so I've thougth in puttin 1 Tsabos drecree instead 1 BEB for side options, Opinions?
How do you side versus normal trehold, Balanced trehold , and tempo trehold(4stifle,4wastelnd)?
Is Ok to play Humility or Perni let it be destroyed by krosan and extirpate their krosan.

Respect to the Landstill mirror,
You are supposed to win the first game, in my opinion is the relevant one, if you win this game, the side plan is to take out for instance: 2 humilty, 1 swords -> in 3 extirpate, letting 1 in sideboard and beeing now in 2nd game our main goal ,extirpate our opponent's win conditions ,not more than 3-4, perfectly suitable for our build , ritgh?

Omega
07-25-2008, 10:12 AM
tsado's decree cost like 6 mana. You really think that it is a good idea?

I think goblin matchup shouldnt be that hard with that much hate. You won't win all games, but the chances are on your side. Dont waste more sB slot to goblin

Robert

Tacosnape
07-25-2008, 01:05 PM
Goblins is only a mild nuisance to the right build. Since they cut down on ports, my 4C build is actually favored, though a 4-port version leaves them slightly with the edge. And I only run 3 Plagues and 4 Blasts (Though if I expected lots of Goblins, I'd run that 4th Plague.)

Assigning your resources mentally is key. You don't ever counter Warchiefs or Piledrivers. Be careful about countering Vial too aggressively, also. Judge your hand. If you've got a Deed or C//P or EE with the land (And maybe a Stifle to protect the manabase), save your Force. What you want to counter are Ringleaders and Matrons. At all costs. Whether by Force, by Counterspell, or by Stifle. If these start resolving, you'll lose.

Mentally assign Edicts if you run them to lone Chiefs that hit the board. Swords early Lackeys. Deed away nuisances. And hope you hit your Plagues postboard. The rest of your deck is probably strong enough to hang in there until you do.

Nihil Credo
07-25-2008, 01:41 PM
What you want to counter are Ringleaders and Matrons. At all costs.

I don't see the point of always countering Matrons, particularly in the early game. Unless you're in the single digits of life, a 1/1 is not something that worries you, so you might as well let them spend another turn's worth of mana (especially in the early game, as I said) and then counter the Ringleader/Wort/SGC/Warchief that they tutor for. Which, incidentally also marginally reduces their threat density.

There are instances where it's optimal to counter the Matron, usually because you have no use for those two mana anyway and you want to drop a 3cc Enchantment next turn, or if you've got an Edict to use; but the majority of times I prefer to let that one resolve.

Tacosnape
07-25-2008, 04:17 PM
I don't see the point of always countering Matrons, particularly in the early game. Unless you're in the single digits of life, a 1/1 is not something that worries you, so you might as well let them spend another turn's worth of mana (especially in the early game, as I said) and then counter the Ringleader/Wort/SGC/Warchief that they tutor for. Which, incidentally also marginally reduces their threat density.

You're wrong. Period.

By waiting and countering the tutor target, you spend a card and they spend a card, and they have a threat on the table. By not waiting and countering the Matron, you spend a card and they spend a card, and they don't have a threat on the table.

The only advantage to not countering the Matron whatsoever is that you force your opponent to tap lands. Tempo isn't all that relevant when your strategy is to win the long term card attrition war. And if that isn't your strategy, you're playing it wrong.

You always counter the Matron (Or Stifle the ability). Always Always Always. He's one more guy that enables an Incinerator on your Factory, or another 2 per turn on what would otherwise be a lone Piledriver you could let live for ages, or another guy to be thrown with a Siege-Gang Commander. Or another guy who when combined with a Rishadan Port or Wasteland makes you lose superiority under a Standstill that you would have otherwise.

Anusien
07-25-2008, 04:25 PM
There are a few reasons to consider countering the target instead of the Matron:
1) There's an outside chance they might get something expensive and you can strand it with Wasteland
2) You can draw a better card. If instead of Forcing the Matron, you let it resolve and they get Piledriver/Warchief to play next turn, you might topdeck a better removal spell/counter to let you save the Force of Will.
3) Drawing threats out of their deck. With Matron/Ringleader, it's reasonable to expect them to see most of their good threats. Every Piledriver you let them pull out of their deck to counter is one they can't draw and play when you're not ready. Now obviously I'm not saying that you'd rather they start with the game with Land, Land, Land, Piledriver, Piledriver, Piledriver, Warchief. But think of it as vaccine; if you're healthy enough to deal with a form of a virus when you're ready, it won't hurt you later. Basically #3 says, "The worst feeling in the world is to counter Matron and have them topdeck the Ringleader anyway."

Now obviously, it's not always right to let it in (Vial much?), but I don't think it's always right to counter either.

znoyes
07-27-2008, 04:31 PM
Has anyone tried :

Zur the Enchanter in a landstill build with Pernicous Deed and Stanstill?

This guy seems like a card advantage clock to me, each turn either netting you 3 cards via standstill or destroying everything with a pernicous deed so you can search for standstill with him next turn. That's like three cards per turn once you get him out. Also, he allows you to leave mana open after getting you standstill so you counter whatever breaks it. Another neat trick with him is attack, fetch deed, and blow deed before blockers are declared. He's also a nice blocker the turn you play him.

He also fetches Engineered plagues and COP's after boarding if anyone uses those. He's more mana intensive than FoF and doesn't net you card advantage right when you play him.

What are your thoughts on this guy: better/worse than FoF, include along side FoF? Thanks.

Illissius
07-28-2008, 12:19 AM
Hmm. Nihil had a Zur deck for the CaNG, but I don't think it used a Landstill shell.

In any case, just because I really like the card, how about something like this:

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Counterbalance
3 Zur the Enchanter
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
SB: 4 Extirpate
SB: 4 Krosan Grip
SB: 4 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Dystopia
SB: 1 Threads of Disloyalty
SB: 1 Circle of Protection: Red

Basically, Zur is highly unreliable as a tutoring engine, so including anything which you would be unhappy to draw is a bad idea. (Even the Plagues and bullets in the sideboard may be going too far.) Repeatedly casting Deeds, Standstills, and Counterbalances should be more than enough. And yeah, this means Zur is never going to attack for more than one, but unless someone comes up with an option which sucks less than Pemmin's Aura or Steel of the Godhead, you'll just have to repeatedly Ancestral Recall yourself and kill them with Factories. 23 lands because Top and I had to cut something; Thoughtseize because it's better protection for Zur than whatever countermagic you would be using after Force and Counterspell, also helps resolve Counterbalance, the deck as a whole is more proactive than traditional Landstill (closer to the Vorosh deck), and it's just simply a powerful as hell card and Zur being blue gives me all the opening I need to run it.

Nihil Credo
07-28-2008, 12:26 PM
Didn't see your reply. Anything, this is something I'd like to discuss more.


You're wrong. Period.

By waiting and countering the tutor target, you spend a card and they spend a card, and they have a threat on the table. By not waiting and countering the Matron, you spend a card and they spend a card, and they don't have a threat on the table.

The only advantage to not countering the Matron whatsoever is that you force your opponent to tap lands. Tempo isn't all that relevant when your strategy is to win the long term card attrition war. And if that isn't your strategy, you're playing it wrong.

You always counter the Matron (Or Stifle the ability). Always Always Always. He's one more guy that enables an Incinerator on your Factory, or another 2 per turn on what would otherwise be a lone Piledriver you could let live for ages, or another guy to be thrown with a Siege-Gang Commander. Or another guy who when combined with a Rishadan Port or Wasteland makes you lose superiority under a Standstill that you would have otherwise.

First things first: Stifle is a completely different matter from Counterspell and Force of Will, and if I play Stifle I will gladly use it on Matron, because unlike actual counters it's only partially effective or completely dead against whatever Goblin they will fetch.

Second: you say tempo isn't all that relevant, and I highly, greatly, gargantuanly, ginormously disagree. I'm pretty sure you Stifle Lackey if you don't have Swords, and the only reason to do so is tempo. The Matron instance is not as dramatic, but the dynamic is the same:

Turn 3, Matron, I play Counterspell/FoW.
Turn 4, they play some other threats.

vs.

Turn 3, Matron, I let it resolve, maybe play Brainstorm/Wish/Dragon at EOT.
Turn 4, they swing for 1, play the Warchief/Ringleader they grabbed, i Cspell/FoW.
Turn 5, they play some other threats.

Just like Stifling the Lackey costs you a card to avoid a more or less Time Walk, countering the tutor target rather than the Matron itself costs you 1-4 life (depending on when you will sweep the board) in exchange for moving the game forward a full turn, i.e. one land drop.
On the play, that extra turn may allow you to play Pernicious Deed and keep Cspell mana open, or Fact or Fiction into a Swords to Plowshares/Stifle/BEB and play it right now. On the draw, it may let you drop Humility or play EE@2 to get rid of Piledriver, and so on: I'm sure I don't need to tell you how much better Landstill operates the more mana it has. Much more than Goblins does, for one.

One last point, and this is where I see your reasons to a degree: how relevant a 1/1 vanilla Goblin is on the board. This is highly dependant on board state and decklist: you usually play Diabolic Edict in your Landstill, so I can see why every extra body is a concern. Also, I may be biased by playing with Wish->Pulse of the Fields, which makes stabilising at 3 life much less dangerous than otherwise. And finally, there are certainly situations where the Matron can be more than a mere ping (a Standstill in hand comes to mind). But even so, I'm pretty sure lost far more games to being one mana short of what I needed to play my bombs than I did by being reduced exactly to zero or -2 life.

galeng
07-28-2008, 02:20 PM
Hey, I just wanted to post my build so I could get some feedback.

Lands:
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Underground Sea
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Nantuko Monastery
2 Wasteland
1 Island

Spells:
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Fact or Fiction
3 Stifle
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Cunning Wish

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Hydroblast
2 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Extirpate
1 Krosan Grip
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Tsabo's Decree
1 Hunting Pack

I have a lot of trouble against mono red burn and a bit of trouble against suicide black. Every other matchup is from 50/50 to very favourable.

Feedback is appreciated!

Frenger
07-31-2008, 01:19 PM
Hey, I just wanted to post my build so I could get some feedback.

Lands:
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Underground Sea
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Nantuko Monastery
2 Wasteland
1 Island

Spells:
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Fact or Fiction
3 Stifle
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Cunning Wish

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Hydroblast
2 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Extirpate
1 Krosan Grip
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Tsabo's Decree
1 Hunting Pack

I have a lot of trouble against mono red burn and a bit of trouble against suicide black. Every other matchup is from 50/50 to very favourable.

Feedback is appreciated!

No meddling mages in the SB? Also regarding the SB, Slaughter Pact would probably be better than Edict in case you need to play it right after you wish (and might not have the mana). MD I've found stifles pretty useless and most of the time when i ran them i would stifle a fetch (if im lucky) and board them out.

Here's my newest list that I'm pretty satisfied with. After a year without i finally got MWS to work and the deck has been doing well and i havent found any changes that need to be made.

Land [25]
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Tolaria West
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Nantuko Monastary
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Academy Ruins
1 Wasteland
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah

spells [23]
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
3 Fact or Fiction
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Cunning Wish
2 Decree of Justice

enchantment [8]
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Standstill

artifact [4]
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Engineered Explosives

Sideboard [15] (still tweaking)
4 Meddling Mage
3 Extirpate
3 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Krosan Grip
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 (undecided slot)

klaus
07-31-2008, 05:45 PM
@ Frenger:

I'd suggest a singleton Tormod's Crypt for your last SBslot: You can fetch it with Tolaria West, E. Tutor and replay it via Academy Ruins plus I think 4 slots for grave based decks (Loam, Dredge etc..) is the absolut minimum.

BTW I play a singleton Engineered Plague in the board - E. Tutor doubles that as well obv. and it improves your Dredge and Tribal.dec MUs -- well worth the slot to me and really not random, as one might think at first glance.

Your mainboard looks cool to me. The only two things that I really miss are 1 basic Island and Humility. I'd probably cut a Deed and a FoF for 2 MD copies.
You canprobably also run a single Humility and board in that E. Tutor G2/G3 in respective MUs.


Cheers,

Klaus

znoyes
07-31-2008, 10:21 PM
Illissius:

Thanks for taking up the Zur idea.

A couple of comments:

Landstill is already bad against blood moon effects, right?
Zur makes that worse because of his color requirements.
So a version that uses him might have to find a way to be more mana resilient.
My ideas include:

->Making the deck only 3 colors (UWB), but you lose out on pernicous deed fetching, which is one of Zur's strengths. Also, 3 color decks that are not "enemy triad colors" have a much easier time getting basics out to answer blood moon because they haven't made enemy color fetch lands yet.

-> Adding an extra basic land and some engineered explosives so you can hit things that cost 3 like the moon duo.


My other comment on your list is that there is no Tarmogoyf. I've conciderred 3 Tarmogoyf and 3 Pernicous deed in a list. You don't want to be TOO green-reliant because you now run a card that requires all three of the other colors.

Finally, is Thoughtseize really what you want in "Landstill". You say "protect zur" but I say "If your opponent wastes a lot of effort and removal spells on your 1/4, who cares". Landstill is a reactive deck. It doesn't want sorceries that wait in the hand while stanstill is out. It wants instants that answer whatever your opponent plays to pop the stanstill.


It's color intensive, but when you get down to it, is there really a blue based card advantage engine that racks up more cards than Zur + standstill or deed? If there is, I'm running it.

Thanks folks.

Frenger
08-01-2008, 06:46 AM
@ Frenger:

I'd suggest a singleton Tormod's Crypt for your last SBslot: You can fetch it with Tolaria West, E. Tutor and replay it via Academy Ruins plus I think 4 slots for grave based decks (Loam, Dredge etc..) is the absolut minimum.

BTW I play a singleton Engineered Plague in the board - E. Tutor doubles that as well obv. and it improves your Dredge and Tribal.dec MUs -- well worth the slot to me and really not random, as one might think at first glance.

Your mainboard looks cool to me. The only two things that I really miss are 1 basic Island and Humility. I'd probably cut a Deed and a FoF for 2 MD copies.
You canprobably also run a single Humility and board in that E. Tutor G2/G3 in respective MUs.


Cheers,

Klaus

So you board in the one plague to fetch with a wished for tutor? It's a bit of a stretch but i guess it's better that way than devoting 3 slots to plagues.

I attended a tournament last night just to watch (dont have the damn fetchlands) and there was alot of Aggro Loam and Survival, no threshold, one combo deck, one goblins, one dreadnaught, and some random decks (type 2 faeries, elves). The aggro loam matchup is the one i worry about the most and i think i might want to go to 4 extirpates in the side and then game two i board in 3 of them leaving the 4th wishable so it will be like im running 5 copies. This is because only one extirpate isnt enough to stop them (with burning wish and all the creatures). I was talking to the player and about the matchup and he asked me what do i extirpate? I told him that if he'd already burning wished for a loam, i would extirpate Loam first, but if he hasnt wished for loam, it would be a toss up between loam and a creature if one was in the grave. He was surprised and said i should always go for the creature first, which i thought was odd given i have so much removal. I'm curious what everyone's opinion on this is.

The amount of survival was also interesting and made me think about running stifles or trickbinds. For now i'm gonna roll with what might be a terrible idea and use trickbind as a wish target against survival.

My sideboard now is looking like:

Sideboard [15]
4 Meddling Mage
4 Extirpate
1 Blue Elemental Blast (is this just dumb?)
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Krosan Grip
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Trickbind (is this just dumb?)
1 Tormod's Crypt (should this be plague or something else?)

Klaus: I'm probably going to have a single island in the MD to make BEB castable if i cant counter blood moon. Humility is the one card I want to fit in but haven't been able to. I'm not so keen on dropping a deed, because it's so strong in this deck, but enlightened tutor makes me wonder if its ok. Would the manabase need adjusting if i ran humility? I do only run 5 white sources not counting fetches.

diffy
08-01-2008, 07:41 AM
There was a lot of Aggro Loam and Survival, no threshold, one combo deck, one goblins, one dreadnaught, and some random decks (type 2 faeries, elves).


If there's loads of Aggro Loam in your meta, there's no real reason to keep playing Landstill - you don't really want to expose yourself to one of your bad matchups if you can avoid it. It is not unwinable but not something you want to face more than once per tournament.
In your meta, I would play some sort of combo - no Threshold and lots of rather un-disruptive decks with slowish clocks are all good matchups for Solidarity, Fetchland Tendrils or similar (super secret secret tech: play Iggy Pop with maindeck Leylines - maindeck Leyline screw two of the most played decks in your metagame: Loam and Survival).



The aggro loam matchup is the one I worry about the most and I think I might want to go to 4 extirpates in the side and then game two I board in 3 of them leaving the 4th wishable so it will be like I'm running 5 copies. This is because only one extirpate isn't enough to stop them (with burning wish and all the creatures).


Extirpate is pretty good against Loam - make sure to always hit Wasteland first if you can because Loam is just too easily recouped by a topdecked Burning Wish.
If you want some more stuff to side in against Aggro Loam, Blue Elemental Blasts are very good - having access to more counters/removal is gold because of their high threat density.



I was talking to the player and about the matchup and he asked me what do i extirpate? I told him that if he'd already burning wished for a loam, i would extirpate Loam first, but if he hasnt wished for loam, it would be a toss up between loam and a creature if one was in the grave. He was surprised and said i should always go for the creature first, which i thought was odd given i have so much removal.

This depends on the build your opponent is playing.
If he is only playing 4 Tarmogoyf, 4 Terravore and 4 Countryside Crusher it can be a good move to get rid of the Vores/Crushers permanently. This is only a good move if he has no Wasteland and you have at least one spare Counter for Devastating Dreams though - if he can continue to make Card Advantage via Loam and keep you off a splash colour even a Tarmogoyf can go all the distance.
If he's playing a build with more creatures (Dark Confidants, Wild Mongrels or similar), there's no choice to be made: even without some big beats he can still kill you easily.



The amount of survival was also interesting and made me think about running stifles or trickbinds. For now I'm gonna roll with what might be a terrible idea and use trickbind as a wish target against survival.


The Survival matchup is dumb - you just have to stall until you can resolve Humility and win. That simple.
If you're not already playing Humility, do include at least two of them - Humility just wins games on its own.



Sideboard [15]
4 Meddling Mage
4 Extirpate
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Krosan Grip
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Trickbind
1 Tormod's Crypt


I would not play the Tormod's Crypt or the Trickbind because they are too narrow. The Slaughter Pact is also something I cut recently: I wished for it way too rarely - Wish for Enlightened Tutor for Deed, Explosive or Humilty fulfils about the same purpose (and against loads of creatures or when on low-life you always have Pulse of the Fields).
If you cut these three cards, you have some space for more Blue Elemental Blasts which will drastically improve your Loam matchup.
I'd also replace the Krosan Grip with a Seed Spark: Seed Spark is in a main colour (you are UW with splash B and G) making it easier to cast. The two chump blockers often very useful too. Also, the Split Second of Krosan Grip is only rarely relevant as Wish can be countered in the first place. Split Second against permanents is also rarely relevant as the competent Survival player will always Survival for Witness without passing priority after resolving it, neutering the bonus of Krosan Grip.

You could also try the sideboard Marius Hausman is currently playing (although I don't like it):

4 Leyline of the Void
1 Extirpate
3 Meddling Mage
4 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Dismantling Blow
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pulse of the Fields

He opts to play Leyline of the Void over Extirpates - this further improves your Loam matchup, the downside being that you loose some ground in the mirror and other control matchups due to the lack of additional Extirpates. Another drawback of Leyline is that it makes your deck more inconsistent which is never a good thing: you don't want to mulligan into it against Loam as it's not strong enough to warrant crippling your hand for it but on the other hand it's also a horrible topdeck (i.e. of a t1-2 Brainstorm).
You could play Wheel of Sun and Moon instead of Leyline to fix this problem but this doesn't harmonize with Deed at all (you're always going to activate it for 2 or more) and isn't as strong in other matchups (mainly Ichorid).
While I'm not totally opposed to Leyline, I don't think



Would the manabase need adjusting if I ran humility? I do only run 5 white sources not counting fetches.


I currently play 6 White sources (4 Tundra, 1 Scrubland, 1 Savannah) and don't need any more to support Humility and Pulse of the Fields - eight Fetchlands and one Eternal Dragon make the manabase incredibly strong.

For reference, here's my build:



/// Maindeck (60 cards)

// Lands (25)
4 Flooded Strand (http://magiccards.info/on/en/316.html)
2 Windswept Heath (http://magiccards.info/on/en/328.html)
2 Polluted Delta (http://magiccards.info/on/en/321.html)
4 Tundra (http://magiccards.info/be/en/300.html)
2 Underground Sea (http://magiccards.info/be/en/301.html)
1 Tropical Island (http://magiccards.info/be/en/299.html)
1 Scrubland (http://magiccards.info/be/en/294.html)
1 Savannah (http://magiccards.info/be/en/293.html)
1 Plains (http://magiccards.info/guru/en/4.html)
1 Island (http://magiccards.info/guru/en/2.html)
1 Tolaria West (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/173.html)
4 Mishra's Factory (http://magiccards.info/aq/en/66.html)
1 Wasteland (http://magiccards.info/tp/en/340.html)

// Winconditions (5)
1 Life from the Loam (http://magiccards.info/rav/en/172.html)
1 Crucible of Worlds (http://magiccards.info/5dn/en/114.html)
1 Eternal Dragon (http://magiccards.info/sc/en/12.html)
2 Decree of Justice (http://magiccards.info/sc/en/8.html)

// Permission (8)
4 Counterspell (http://magiccards.info/be/en/55.html)
4 Force of Will (http://magiccards.info/ai/en/42.html)

// Card Advantage (10)
4 Brainstorm (http://magiccards.info/mm/en/61.html)
4 Standstill (http://magiccards.info/od/en/102.html)
2 Cunning Wish (http://magiccards.info/ju/en/37.html)

// Removal (12)
4 Swords to Plowshares (http://magiccards.info/ia/en/278.html)
4 Pernicious Deed (http://magiccards.info/ap/en/114.html)
2 Engineered Explosives (http://magiccards.info/5dn/en/118.html)
2 Humility (http://magiccards.info/tp/en/236.html)

/// Sideboard (15 cards)
4 Meddling Mage (http://magiccards.info/ps/en/116.html)
3 Extirpate (http://magiccards.info/pc/en/71.html)
3 Blue Elemental Blast (http://magiccards.info/be/en/50.html)
2 Hydroblast (http://magiccards.info/ia/en/72.html)
1 Pulse of the Fields (http://magiccards.info/ds/en/11.html)
1 Enlightened Tutor (http://magiccards.info/mr/en/218.html)
1 Seed Spark (http://magiccards.info/rav/en/30.html)


The Wasteland could also be a Dust Bowl (http://magiccards.info/mm/en/316.html). If you're sticking with Wasteland, the Tolaria West can also be Wasteland n°2. Alternatively, the Wasteland can also be an Academy Ruins (in this case, keep the Tolaria West).
In your meta I'd probably go with the Academy Ruins or just with an additional fetchland or Tropical Island.

Anyway, if there's lots of Aggro Loam in your meta and if you want to keep on playing Landstill, I'd suggest you move on to a 3c build which has several advantages over 4c, especially in your meta:
Wrath of God is often better than Pernicious Deed
It doesn't give your opponent another turn to swing (often lethal, especially against Aggro Loam)
It's easier to cast (again, good against Loam which can otherwise just keep you off Black or Green too easily)
You don't need the flexibility of Deed as close to always all you want to kill are creatures (especially in your metagame)
The better manabase is also some help against recurring Wastelands

A sample UWb List can be found here (http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dgbs8px8_0grhzd6dg).

Frenger
08-01-2008, 08:01 AM
If there's loads of Aggro Loam in your meta, there's no real reason to keep playing Landstill - the matchup is just really bad. Not unwinable but not something you want to face more than once per tournament.
Also, in your meta, I would play some sort of combo - no Threshold and lots of rather un-disruptive decks with slowish clocks are all good matchups for Solidarity, Fetchland Tendrils or similar (super secret secret tech: play Iggy Pop with maindeck Leylines - maindeck Leyline screw two of the most played decks in your metagame: Loam and Survival).


Well, it was a 10 person tournament with 2 loam and 2 survival (one loam wasn't in the tournament but it was a guys other deck) I found it alot because in my meta in San Diego, USA I've never once played against Loam in 8 months of playing and there was only 2 guys who played survival who have been playing i since legacy was created, or at least a very long time. However, i still think loam and survival will be present in force.



Extirpate is pretty good against Loam - make sure to always hit Wasteland first if you can because Loam is just too easily recouped by a topdecked Burning Wish.
If you want some more stuff to side in against Aggro Loam, Blue Elemental Blasts are very good - having access to more counters/removal is gold because of their high threat density.

If they've already wished for loam, would extirpate on loam be a better choice than wasteland for the first extirpate?




This depends on the build your opponent is playing.
If he is only playing 4 Tarmogoyf, 4 Terravore and 4 Countryside Crusher it can be a good move to get rid of the Vores/Crushers permanently. This is only a good move if he has no Wasteland and you have at least one spare Counter for Devastating Dreams though - if he can continue to make Card Advantage via Loam and keep you off a splash colour even a Tarmogoyf can go all the distance.
If he's playing a build with more creatures (Dark Confidants, Wild Mongrels or similar), there's no choice to be made: even without some big beats he can still kill you easily.


From what i remember one loam player had only goyf vore and crusher, while the other had mongrels in addition.



The Survival matchup is dumb - you just have to stall until you can resolve Humility and win. That simple.
If you're not already playing Humility, do include at least two of them - Humility just wins games on its own.


Thats the problem, i'm currently not running humility. I do think I will work it in though.



I would not play the Tormod's Crypt or the Trickbind because they are too narrow. The Slaughter Pact is also something I cut recently: I wished for it way too rarely - Wish for Enlightened Tutor for Deed, Explosive or Humilty fulfils about the same purpose (and against loads of creatures or when on low-life you always have Pulse of the Fields).
If you cut these three cards, you have some space for more Blue Elemental Blasts which will drastically improve your Loam matchup.
I'd also replace the Krosan Grip by a Seed Spark: Seed Spark is in a main colour making it easier to cast and the two chump blockers are often very useful. Also, the Split Second of Krosan Grip is only rarely relevant as Wish can be countered in the first place. Split Second against permanents is also rarely relevant as the competent Survival player will always Survival for Witness without passing priority after resolving it, neutering the bonus of Krosan Grip.


Yeah i had a hunch cutting the BEB's was dumb. Seed Spark was a card that had never occured to me. In matchups other than survival where destroying artifacts or enchantments is relevant, do you think the 2 chump blockers is better than split second at the cost of an extra mana?



You could also try the sideboard Marius Hausman is currently playing (although I don't like it):

4 Leyline of the Void
1 Extirpate
3 Meddling Mage
4 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Dismantling Blow
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pulse of the Fields

He opts to play Leyline of the Void over Extirpates - this further improves your Loam matchup, the downside being that you loose some ground in the mirror and other control matchups due to the lack of additional Extirpates. Another drawback of Leyline is that it makes your deck more inconsistent which is never a good thing: you don't want to mulligan into it against Loam as it's not strong enough to warrant crippling your hand for it but on the other hand it's also a horrible topdeck (i.e. of a t1-2 Brainstorm).
You could play Wheel of Sun and Moon instead of Leyline to fix this problem but this doesn't harmonize with Deed at all (you're always going to activate it for 2 or more) and isn't as strong in other matchups (mainly Ichorid).
While I'm not totally opposed to Leyline, I don't think


I think extirpate is more useful than Leyline. If you draw into a leyline you will have to fetch a second black source which, if early, could hurt your manabase wheras extirpate is easier to cast. I also like the idea of having 5 available via wish. With BEB's also the loam matchup improves. If i ran 4 extirpates and 3 BEB's in my side, would you board in 3 extirpates and 2 BEB's so you could wish for them if need be, or would you board all of them in?



I currently play 6 White sources (4 Tundra, 1 Scrubland, 1 Savannah) and don't need any more to support Humility and Pulse of the Fields - eight Fetchlands and one Eternal Dragon make the manabase incredibly strong.

The Wasteland could also be a Dust Bowl. If you're sticking with Wasteland, the Tolaria West can also be Wasteland n°2. Alternatively, the Wasteland can also be an Academy Ruins (in this case, keep the Tolaria West).

I run 5 white sources, 6 fetches + tolaria west (which could color fix if im desperate) Tolaria fetches me wasteland, monastery or academy, so i don't like to consider it a mana fixer as it has more important targets. If grip is replaced by seed spark, would it be smart to possible go 4 tundras and 2 Tropical island (making 3 green sources total with savannah)?

Also regarding the boarding plan for Loam, do you board in meddling mages? If so, what would be the first thing to name? I assume it depends on if you have an extirpate or not, but would you go after the creatures? (crusher?)

diffy
08-01-2008, 08:15 AM
If they've already wished for loam, would extirpate on loam be a better choice than wasteland for the first extirpate?


If you have a backup Force of Will / Counterspell go for the Loam - if not, go for the Wastelands.



In matchups other than survival where destroying artifacts or enchantments is relevant, do you think the 2 chump blockers is better than split second at the cost of an extra mana?


It is - against Stax, having more Smokestack fodder is good, against Survival. having chumblockers for their Goyfs/Dorans for a turn or two is good, in the mirror, the two additional attackers are gold all definetely worth 1 additional mana.
If you don't want to play Seed Spark, go with Dismantling Blow - although you're only rarely going to play it with kicker, it's still better than Krosan Grip because of colour stability issues.



If I ran 4 extirpates and 3 BEB's in my side, would you board in 3 extirpates and 2 BEB's so you could wish for them if need be, or would you board all of them in?


Board them all in - Cunning Wish is too slow in this matchup.
This changes if they play Chalice of the Void: in this case I would leave the Cunning Wishes in and leave a single Extirpate in the sideboard to wish for - no Blue Elemental Blasts are needed in the board because Wish for a Counter is clunky and because you already have Enlightened Tutor as pseudo-removal.



Also regarding the boarding plan for Loam, do you board in meddling mages? If so, what would be the first thing to name? I assume it depends on if you have an extirpate or not, but would you go after the creatures? (crusher?)

This depends on the build of your opponent. If he plays more than 12 creatures, don't bring Meddling Mage in: I used to board Meddling Mages regardless of the build, but that was often just overboarding - they would just not care about Mages/Extirpates and just swarm me.
Naming with Meddling Mage depends largely on the situation - it really all depends on your hand/amount of countermagic/amount of removal/amount of Extirpates. A rough guideline would be that naming Life form the Loam with Meddling Mage fixes the issue of Burning Wish getting an Extirpated Loam back but, on the other hand, Meddling Mage is better than Extirpate at handling other things as he can proactively handle stuff (e.g. Devastating Dreams). If there's no Extirpate in sight, name Life from the Loam. If you have an Extirpate, use that on Loam and Mage something else (like Devastating Dreams or Burning Wish [getting Worm Harvest]).

Frenger
08-01-2008, 08:30 AM
After looking at your list, I toyed with the idea in my mind of cutting 3 Fact or Fiction for 2 Humility and 1 Eternal Dragon. This would allow me to cut 1 Nantuko Monastery in favor of a basic Island and possibly something else for a basic plains. I haven't decided yet what i like better, but i think i will do some testing on MWS with the changes.

As for the sideboard:

4x Meddling Mage
4x Extirpate
3x Blue Elemental Blast
1x Enlightened Tutor
1x Seed Spark
1x Pulse of the Fields
1x Undecided Slot

For the moment, i intend on playing 4c. I'm about 4 cards away from completion (fetchlands) and i haven't played in a tournament since i moved to France and I'm really just itching to play. I may build 3c later, and actually intend on getting the cards to be able to play both 3 and 4c depending on what i want to play, but if i go for 3c right now, i will have to get the cards for that before i can play, which i dont want to do. Luckily though, i bought some humilities on a whim with my last large purchase :)

Given that I will be playing 4c, i think this sideboard is as close to ideal as i can get vs aggro loam, and if i do end up running humilities, the survival MU will be better. The rest of them aren't so bad, as i actually enjoyed playing some casual games last night mopping up the various aggro decks (including the 2nd place) with a less than ideal list. (3 wastes and 3 stifles, no decrees, 2 monasteries what)

Nihil Credo
08-01-2008, 02:23 PM
I do recommend the singleton Tormod's Crypt in the side, if heading into that kinda of metagame. Aggro Loam plays Chalices of the Void in large part to stop Extirpate, and you won't always have Explosives to get rid of it (or if you do, you may want to save them against Seismic Assault or something).

Also, Crypt is invaluable against Ichorid - Extirpate is what wins you the long game, but a single Crypt activation can buy you enough time to get there if they have a decent start and you don't have the perfect hand. Even though you only have three copies of it postboard (you SB out Cunning Wish), Ichorid is a tough enough matchup that it's worth it.

@DiF: Glad to see you too found Slaughter Pact to be near-useless.

Shimster
08-04-2008, 01:34 AM
Although I know that UWb Landstill should be the stronger 3c build (as everybody plays it in my meta), is there a competitive Ubg list everyone (or most people) can agree on?

Joon
08-04-2008, 06:35 AM
Umm...some version of Voroshstill (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10068)? At least it's the one that had the most success in those colors.
But I don't know if that list is outdated or not...so ask Bardo :wink:

Bardo
08-04-2008, 12:50 PM
Although I know that UWb Landstill should be the stronger 3c build (as everybody plays it in my meta), is there a competitive Ubg list everyone (or most people) can agree on?

Um, something that "everyone can agree on?" Since, this is the Internet, I'll assume you're kidding. ;)

With U/b/g Landstill still, I think there are more "good ideas," than "generally accepted lists," given how infrequently it is played in tournament settings. Which isn't to say it's bad or anything, just not terribly popular.

Preliminarily, I would ask:

1) Tarmogoyf: Yes or No?
2) Counterbalance: Yes or No?

Assuming you said “No” to both of these question, you might start off with the basic Landstill template and fill in the slots with the best cards available.

Land: 24-25
Card Drawing: 10-12
Board Control: 10-12
Stack Control: 8-12
“Stuff” (Crucible, etc.): 0-4

To fill in these categories, I’ll refer you to one of my Landstill articles (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/print.php?Article=15607) (Section VIII).

"Green Splash
More than a few have flirted with the power of green in Landstill over the past few years, but it only reached widespread recognition after a few successful runs of the four-color BHWC (now BHWW) Landstill in some large tournaments in the latter half of 2006. When paired with black, Landstill gains access to Pernicious Deed, which answers all manner of sundry and menacing threats in wilds of Legacy. Lastly, Krosan Grip has become the de facto weapon of choice for destroying Counterbalance, among other obnoxious enchantments and artifacts in this format.

1. Removal
- Pernicious Deed (with Black)
- Krosan Grip
- Drop of Honey

2. Win Conditions
- Garruk Wildspeaker
- Tarmogoyf
- Nantuko Monastery (with White)
- Krosan Tusker
- Gigapede

3. Sideboard and Other Maindeck Options
- Life from the Loam
- Living Wish
- Loaming Shaman
- Moment’s Peace
- Trygon Predator

Black Splash
It took a surprising amount of time for the Legacy community to come around to the power of black spells in Landstill. Apart from the periodic success of BHWC’s 4-color model, the first instance of black-splash Landstill making the Top 8 at a major U.S. Legacy tournament, to my knowledge, goes to Scott Scheurer (Overlord95), who piloted U/b Landstill (a.k.a. "Duck Hunt") to the Top 8 at a 54-player tournament in Geneseo, New York on February 17, 2007. By now, the power that black cards offer Landstill should be obvious.

1. Removal
- Pernicious Deed (with Green)
- Damnation
- Smother
- Diabolic Edict
- Chainer’s Edict
- Slaughter Pact
- The Abyss
- Innocent Blood
- Decree of Pain
- Crime / Punishment (with White and/or Green)

2. Win Conditions
- Haunting Echoes
- Tombstalker
- Shriekmaw
- Liliana Vess

3. Sideboard and Other Maindeck Options
- Dark Confidant
- Duress
- Engineered Plague
- Extirpate
- Leyline of the Void
- Phyrexian Negator
- Thoughtseize
- Yixlid Jailer

E. Colorless Maindeck and Sideboard Non-Land Cards
- Chalice of the Void
- Crucible of Worlds
- Culling Scales
- Engineered Explosives
- Nevinyrral's Disk
- Powder Keg
- Sensei’s Divining Top
- Tormod’s Crypt
- Vedalken Shackles

Other Maindeck and Sideboard Lands
- Academy Ruins
- Dust Bowl
- Faerie Conclave
- Maze of Ith
- Mutavault
- The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
- Tolaria West
- Treetop Village
- Volrath’s Stronghold
- Wasteland"

If you go the no-Goyf/CB route, you might go with something like this:

U/b/g Landstill
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Fact or Fiction

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
2 Stifle

4 Pernicious Deed
3 Smother
3 Vedalken Shackles
2 Engineered Explosives

2 Crucible of Worlds

4 Mishra’s Factory
3 Wasteland
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Island
1 Swamp
1 Treetop Village
1 Academy Ruins

Meh, doesn’t look too bad for a 2-minute deck-building exercise.

The advantages here (over other color configurations): Pernicious Deed, stable mana (relative to 4c), ability to reliably run Wasteland/Crucible (compared 4c), excellent (black) sideboard options. Disadvantages are having to use the clearly subpar black removal (Smother, Edicts) over Swords to Plowshares.

If you wanted to see what CB/Top/Goyf looks like, you might try the most recent version of “Vorosh.”

”Vorosh”
U/g/b Landstill with Counter-Top/Goyf
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Sensei’s Divining Top

4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Counterbalance

3 Engineered Explosives
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Smother
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Crucible of Worlds

4 Tarmogoyf

4 Mishra’s Factory
3 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Breeding Pool

Sideboard
4 Hydroblast
3 Engineered Plague
3 Thoughtseize
3 Extirpate
2 Krosan Grip

If you want to squeeze in Swords to Plowshares, you can drop the Smothers, Crucible(s) and Wasteland to make room for StP and Tundras. You’ll also want to max the blue fetchland count.

“Four-Color Vorosh”
by Bardo

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Sensei’s Divining Top

4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Counterbalance

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Crime & Punishment
1 Vedalken Shackles

4 Tarmogoyf

4 Mishra’s Factory
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
2 Island

One of the enjoyable experiences about Landstill, in general, is the flexibility, openness of form and design potential. Good times.

Shimster
08-04-2008, 01:52 PM
Um, something that "everyone can agree on?" Since, this is the Internet, I'll assume you're kidding. ;)
You've got me there. ;D

As far as testing goes, I don't like the antisynergie between Goyf/CB and Pernicious Deed.

My build is focussed on fighting the Landstill mirror (mostly UWb):

1 Gigapede
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Fact or Fiction
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Diabolic Edict
2 Vedalken Shackles
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Krosan Grip
2 Life from the Loam
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
3 Island
2 Swamp
1 Academy Ruins
1 Tolaria West

Asfalto
08-05-2008, 11:59 AM
Or Academy Ruins...

Anyway i've played every version of this deck and i got something to say:

- UBg version: Pernicious Deed is more castable than UWbg, but Landstill without Humility doesn't go so far... Humility is an AMAZING winning condition, against a lot of decks: LFTL Control, Survival, Goblins, Threshold, White Weenie, Madness, Slivers, Zoo, Rock...
- UWb: yes Humility, no Deed, yes Wrath of God. Wrath is good (God is good :)) but it means nothing agianst Mishra in mirror match. And Deed destroys Survival OTF, Seismic Assault, Counterbalance, Chalice, Trinisphere, Equipments...
- UWbg: Deed AND Humility. The best path to victory.

I'm running this list:

1x Eternal dragon

4x Standstill
3x Pernicious Deed
2x Humility

2x Decree Of Justice

2x Crucible of Worlds
2x Engineered Explosives

4x Brainstorm
4x Counterspell
4x Force Of Will
4x Swords To Plowshares
2x Cunning Wish
2x Fact Or Fiction

4x Flooded Strand
2x Polluted Delta
3x Tundra
2x Underground Sea
2x Tropical Island
1x Scrubland
1x Savannah
1x Island
1x Plains
4x Mishra's Factory
1x Nantuko Monastery
1x Wasteland
1x Tolaria West

I think that Stifle is not so useful in this deck. If you run only 2 of 'em you'll never see it if you really need it. And i don't know what can i take out for 3-4 Stifle slots... If i'll pull out some card, i'll do to put in Spell Snare...

torgar
08-05-2008, 12:19 PM
I really like this list but the only thing that worries me is the two basic lands. I guess that's just the trade-off... more powerful cards for a much weaker mana base.

Is it worth it to even run two? If Blood Moon lands I see no way outta of it. If Magus lands, you need the single plains. And no matter what you're going to have waste targets out there.

It's probably a fair trade off in power, but I always worry about the manabase.

i_need_the_extra_turns
08-05-2008, 12:49 PM
@Asfalto

I like your lists. I play nearly the same list.
I tested the tolaria west, but I didnt like it. So I play the 2nd wasteland instead of the toaria west.
Therefor I cutted one FoF for the third EE. The explosives can do so much and they are helping u in the early game. 4cc for the FoF are in same cases too slow.
At the moment I'm not sure to play the e-dragon or the 25th land.
The rest of the deck is perfect: the manabase etc.
I would never play stifle in this deck, when I want to add a card, it would be spell snares, too. But there is simply no slot.

greetz

Frenger
08-05-2008, 02:06 PM
I really like this list but the only thing that worries me is the two basic lands. I guess that's just the trade-off... more powerful cards for a much weaker mana base.

Is it worth it to even run two? If Blood Moon lands I see no way outta of it. If Magus lands, you need the single plains. And no matter what you're going to have waste targets out there.

It's probably a fair trade off in power, but I always worry about the manabase.

The two basics are to be able to cast cunning wish and BEB on blood moon game one or just BEB the blood moon game two. The plains is to seed spark (if you run that) blood moon or StP magus.

@Asfalto, i would probably cut your 2 FoF in favor of 1x Deed and another land, Probably a tundra to better cast humility and decree.

The list I'm currently testing, reflecting the changes discussed on the last page is this:

Land [25]

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Tolaria West
1 Academy Ruins
1 Wasteland
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Nantuko Monastary

Instants [18]
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Cunning Wish

sorceries [2]
2 Decree of Justice

creatures [1]
1 Eternal Dragon

enchantments [10]
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Standstill
2 Humility

artifacts [4]
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Engineered Explosives


sideboard [15]
4 Meddling Mage
4 Extirpate
3 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Seed Spark
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Tormod's Crypt

Asfalto
08-06-2008, 07:29 AM
The two basics are to be able to cast cunning wish and BEB on blood moon game one or just BEB the blood moon game two. The plains is to seed spark (if you run that) blood moon or StP magus.

@Asfalto, i would probably cut your 2 FoF in favor of 1x Deed and another land, Probably a tundra to better cast humility and decree.

The list I'm currently testing, reflecting the changes discussed on the last page is this:

Land [25]

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Tolaria West
1 Academy Ruins
1 Wasteland
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Nantuko Monastary

Instants [18]
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Cunning Wish

sorceries [2]
2 Decree of Justice

creatures [1]
1 Eternal Dragon

enchantments [10]
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Standstill
2 Humility

artifacts [4]
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Engineered Explosives


sideboard [15]
4 Meddling Mage
4 Extirpate
3 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Seed Spark
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Tormod's Crypt

4 Pernicious are too much, considering that this deck is basically a UW with a bg toolbox... It's not so cool having 1/2 deed in your hand with Tundra, Mishra and a fetch (for example). You need to play it a little later in the game, when you're already in control mode and with a lot of lands in play. STP, EE and Humility may stop your opponent long enough, while making your mana country a little more consistent.
25th land may be, and if i'll choose this way, i'll put in one Academy Ruins... Anyway i'm sure that Fact or Fiction is one of the best drawing boost in Legacy and you can pitch it on Force: i think that 20 blue cards, including FoW itself, is the right way.
I pulled out monoPlains for 4th Tundra. Better choice considering 4x Counterspell...
I don't like Seed Spark. Dismantling Blow is much better. Do not need some token, better to pay 3 mana instead 4 with an amazing kicker ability (that i almost use only in mirror match).