[Deck] It's the Fear - Control in the new Era

[Deep6er]

It's the Fear is a bit of a difficult deck to describe. It's capable of controlling the game in a similar manner to Landstill, but it's also capable of winning the game with counter backup in a quick manner similar to Threshold. It's capable of answering a wide variety of threats and it's also capable of drawing a tremendous amount of cards. In addition to all this, the deck is rather versatile about how to approach matchups.

The decklist is pretty simple. I'll start with the one that I'm playing now, and then show how it evolved from the one that I played to a Top 8 finish at the NoVA Legacy Draft.

4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Counterspell
1 Life from the Loam
4 Intuition
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Vedalken Shackles
1 Eternal Witness
4 Force of Will
2 Engineered Explosives

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
1 Island
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Academy Ruins

The deck that I played at the NoVA Legacy Draft was similar, but had a few differences that markedly changed it's strategy. Here's that one.

4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Counterspell
3 Counterbalance
1 Life from the Loam
4 Intuition
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Vedalken Shackles
2 Psychatog
1 Eternal Witness
4 Force of Will
2 Engineered Explosives

4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Academy Ruins

There were a couple of different thought processes that went into the creation of the first one. It's important to note here though, that Dan (nitewolf9) sent me a PM asking me about Psychatog. I responded with "I hate that guy, and he sucks." So, he kept on pestering me about him until we came up with a list. That list turned into other lists, and so on and so forth down the line. We arrived at the second list above after a few weeks, and decided that I would play that, while Dan would play Eva Green.

However, there are problems with the deck above. The first and primary problem is the lack of the fourth Counterbalance. That card is so ridiculously amazing against so many decks in the format, that it shouldn't matter if you kill a draw. After all, even if you draw a second, it's not a big deal because the first one stuck. Secondly, Psychatog is incredibly terrible in this current format. He costs more than Tarmogoyf, and doesn't do as much as Tarmogoyf does. Third, basic Swamp is awful. The deck wants mana fixing.

So, after realizing all these problems, I came to the conclusion that these were rather egregious problems that needed fixing. Thus, the first decklist came about. Eight fetchlands, more Counterbalance, more versatility.

The sideboard is a matter of some concern as well. Ichorid is a beating. Not going to lie about that one. The other problematic matchup is Dragon Stompy. However, you will want to keep cards like opposing Counterbalances in mind when creating your sideboard. Even though I would say that It's the Fear is ahead against Threshold, I would also say it's by a slim margin, probably only by 60% tops. Threshold can still do it's thing and kill you (just like it can to every deck in the format), by countering all your spells and killing you with retarded Tarmogoyf. Thus, it's something to keep in mind when building a sideboard. Now, my current sideboard is still in the air. My metagame is pretty wonky, so I have to have a wide variety of cards to deal with. However, the base nine that I like are these:

4 Leyline of the Void
3 Krosan Grip
2 Life from the Loam

Leyline is very powerful against Ichorid (of which possibly one or two show up) and Krosan Grip is great against opposing Counterbalances. Life from the Loam is there as we usually have an Eva Green deck or two every week. Even though there is a Goblin deck just about every week, I usually don't board too much for Goblins. It's a matchup that with tight play, is pretty favorable for you. Post board, they get access to Krosan Grip for your Counterbalances/Shackles, but it's still not really enough. Especially if I chose to put Plague in my board for that day. However, some prospective cards for the sideboard are as follows:

Spell Snare
General purpose. Strong against Threshold, Eva Green, and some combo decks, Spell Snare is wide variety choice that allows you to customize the deck to fight the decks that rely on quick plays and tight curves.

Blue Elemental Blast
Anti-Red. Very strong against Goblins, and marginally strong against Dragon Stompy. Mildly useful against some combo decks. It's a strong choice for the Goblin matchup. But that's a matchup that I'm not tremendously worried about. Dragon Stompy is a hassle, but Blue Elemental Blast does nothing to answer Chalice of the Void. Trinisphere is irritating, but Chalice of the Void will shut off my most powerful removal.

Pernicious Deed
Anti-Permanent. Very strong against decks like Dragon Stompy and occasionally combo (but very rarely, I would only consider sideboarding it against Belcher if at all). Strong against Threshold, but weakened by the knowledge that they're going to bring in Krosan Grip. That diminishes the power of dropping it and then using the time that it gains you to rebuild your hand. I've considered adding this card to the sideboard for awhile now, but every time I do, I remember that this card is just not what you want for the sideboard. It doesn't do what you need it to do for a sideboard card. It's still very powerful in the maindeck, but sideboard slots are at a premium and this would be a waste.

Vedalken Shackles
Anti-Creature. Strong against Goblins. Strong against other Aggro decks. However, it has the same weaknesses that Pernicious Deed has. Your sideboard should generally not include cards that you have in the main. MOST of the time, that's a sign of poorly thought out sideboard strategies. Thus, it's unlikely that it's a good sideboard choice.

Engineered Plague
Anti-Goblins. Insane against Goblins. Relatively useful against Cephalid Breakfast. Unfortunately, I think with sideboard space being such a premium, and this card costing too much to affect the Ichorid matchup, that this card is relegated to not being stellar enough to fit the board.

Yixlid Jailer
Anti-Graveyard. This was originally in my sideboard for the NoVA Legacy Draft. However, I'm reasonably certain that Leyline of the Void is actually better. The fact that Leyline can come down significantly earlier and also the fact that it affects opposing Tarmogoyfs (mine are irrelevant, I want to make sure that they CANNOT win first), means that Leyline of the Void suits my aims better. Similar issue with Tormod's Crypt.

Generally, your strategy will remain pretty simple in most matches. Drop a Counterbalance, and prevent your opponent from playing Magic. In situations where that doesn't happen, then use the deck's versatility to set up powerful board positions. Volrath's Stronghold and Academy Ruins are both insanely powerful, and should be noted accordingly. One thing that I cannot stress enough, is the fact that the deck is versatile. Know all the cards in the deck. Remember them well. Odd Intuition piles have won me quite a few games. Knowledge is one of your best weapons, so use it to the fullest.

However, there are quite a few areas left open for discussion.

1) The sideboard. I haven't found much that I'm satisfied with in the last six slots.

2) Are there better Intuition targets? I've done a pretty thorough search, but I'm not certain yet.

3) Numbers on Deed/Explosives. Explosives plays fantastically well with Ruins, and Deed isn't very partial to Counterbalance/Tarmogoyf. Does this mean that the numbers should be switched? Deed is stronger in it's capabilities and usually requires as much if not more mana than Explosives would. It's a difficult call.

Anyway, some general matchup analysis that I've compiled while playing the deck.

Threshold: Generally favorable. Possibly as high as 60-40. Not higher than that. Threshold is still the standalone best deck in the format, and it plays as such. Ideally, you prevent them from landing a Counterbalance while sticking your own. However, in situations where that doesn't happen, Deed and Explosives are necessary. This match will more likely than not, revolve around Counterbalance.

Sideboard: Krosan Grip
Side out: This is difficult. With there being many different incarnations of Threshold, it's difficult to say. A decent guideline would be to side out Shackles. However, if they seem creature heavy than board out Counterspell. It's a judgement call that has to be made given the information you have about your opponent's deck.

Goblins: Pretty favorable. Probably around 65%. This strategy is simple. Counterbalance is important here in order to stop Warren Weirding. However, Shackles ENDS this matchup. Warren Weirding loses to Shackles, and so does most of their deck. That card, combined with Tarmogoyf and Swords, will generally seal this matchup.

Sideboard: Nothing as of now.
Side out: This is dependent on the six slots chosen for your sideboard. However, cards like Intuition take a long time to function here, and may be worth boarding out. Don't take out too many three casting cost cards though, it's important to maintain Counterbalance's efficacy.

Ichorid: Complete beating. Probably around 25%. Probably lower. This strategy is simple also. Pray to whatever gods you hold dear. Swords, and a quick Tarmogoyf could theoretically steal it with abundant countermagic.

Sideboard: Leyline of the Void
Side out: Shackles, and Intuition. In game two, your trump card is Leyline. Protect it. They cannot win with that card in play. I highly recommend mulliganing for it. Even though they could have the bounce spell, you're putting the burden of winning on them. THEY MUST HAVE IT. Additionally, the longer you get to consolidate your position, the better it is for you. So, go for the long game.

Dragon Stompy: Pretty poor. Probably around 30%. Moon effects are something that you're going to have to deal with. In exchange for playing remarkably powerful cards in many different colors, you have to trade something. In this scenario, it's trading power for susceptibility. You have a weakness to Moon effects. There's no great answer here, so I'd recommend living with it.

Sideboard: Krosan Grip possibly something else depending on your board.
Side out: Shackles is a good card IF YOU'RE WINNING. Since you should be trying to first consolidate your position, THEN win, I'd say it's a good target to board out. Counterbalance is also a decent card to board out. Since they have a funky curve, maintaining a lock with Counterbalance will be difficult. However, it's not impossible. These are however, just ideas. I haven't done as much testing as I should against Dragon Stompy.

Landstill: Pretty amazing. Probably around 65%. Counterbalance is amazing in this matchup. You can do everything they can do, but better. This matchup is all about outplaying your opponent. Turn 2 Standstill is going to be difficult, but not the end of the game. Try to build up your manabase underneath it (hopefully with the help of a Top or something). Then break Standstill when you're prepared to start the game with enough lands in play to fight on equal terms. Preferably breaking Standstill with an end step Brainstorm (so they have to discard) is going to be best.

Sideboard: Krosan Grip might be decent but is an unlikely choice. Life from the Loam may be a good choice if they are running Wasteland.
Side out: Explosives and Deed are good choices to side out. You should still leave some way to deal with Enchantments/Artifacts in the main though. Getting surprised by a Moat would be unfortunate, but not game breaking. Also, Shackles is amazing in this matchup. Don't forget about it.

That's most of them. If anybody else has questions about it, feel free to post here.

[Bryant Cook]

Looks good. How's it's combo match-up?

[Deep6er]

I can honestly tell you that I don't know. Haven't finished running it through the gauntlet yet.

However, it IS important to note that it does qualify for Deck to Watch status which is why I made this thread.

I should have finalized percentages on most matchups soon. Probably within a week or two.

[Zach Tartell]

What is your second Intuition pile? I can see the first, but after that do you just go for like... three Artifacts? Seems kind of underpowered.

Also, I feel like a second Witness might be helpful for general utility when you don't have the Stronghold engine online to fool around with Intuition.

[undone]

You could easily improve the D Stompy MU by a simple 4-6 BEB/hydroblast in the board. Not that it would make it favorable but it would bring it up to at least 50% I would think

[Bryant Cook]

What is your second Intuition pile? I can see the first, but after that do you just go for like... three Artifacts? Seems kind of underpowered.

Also, I feel like a second Witness might be helpful for general utility when you don't have the Stronghold engine online to fool around with Intuition.

I think his first intuition pile would be Loam and Ruins+Stronghold. Then his second Witness + cards.

[Hanni]

Looks pretty similar to this: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6230&page=7

However, there are some differences.

The biggest difference I see right now is that you fit in Counterbalance. Counterbalance is obviously a very strong card. I personally find that Deed and Intuition -> Engines replaces the need for it... but it's still solid nevertheless.

Other than that, I'm confused by the lack of Genesis. Volrath's Stronghold costs the same amount of mana as Genesis to recur a guy (3 lands)... but it doesn't create card advantage like Genesis does. You do need Cephalid Coliseum to get him in the yard, though... and I'm guessing your 1st Intuition pile consists of Loam, Stronghold, and Academy Ruins whereas mine consists of Loam, Coliseum, and Genesis. I guess it really depends on the situation... but I find Genesis to be much stronger overall since it provides actual card advantage... and I find recurring EE's is typically unecessary most of the time when I have the ability to recur Shriekmaw (I tested Ruins/EE at 1 point throughout development and I didn't find it very effecient).

I also tried the 4c splash at 1 point in development for MD StP and SB Gaddock Teeg. I eventually came back to the 3c list... I just didn't find StP worth the mana instability.

Last but not least, I really think either Thoughtseize, Duress, or Cabal Therapy needs to be in the maindeck... possibly in the Counterspell spots? Counterspell, to me, is extremely lacking in comparison to everything else in the deck. The mix of proactive disruption with reactive disruption is very, very strong. Plus, the ability to know what the opponent has in hand is invaluable.

Other than that, it looks solid. Personally, I prefer the build in my signature, simply because of the way it transitions from early game to late game better (more Threshold elements, less control elements). Yours is more control oriented, though, which is going to improve other control matchups. Therefore, it's going to be metagame dependant as to which decklist would be better.


Psychatog is incredibly terrible in this current format. He costs more than Tarmogoyf, and doesn't do as much as Tarmogoyf does.

Psychatog is to this deck as Mystic Enforcer is to Threshold. He's there as a finisher. I cannot tell you how many games I've won simply because I cleared the table, dropped Tog, and swung for lethal the following turn. Your list doesn't quite feed the yard as well as my list due to the lack of Cephalid Coliseum... but Tog is still wicked strong. The other option is to run Tombstalker in those spots, which looks alot better in your list anyway since you don't run Wonder. I suppose that between Goyf and Shackles, you can get away without a finisher... and I suppose that with all the removal you run, you should be able to connect with the evasionless Goyf... but I still recommend a finisher. Like I said, there's been games where I pull a win out of my ass and just win out of nowhere, games where I should have lost, simply because I dropped Tog (with Wonder in the yard) and my opponent didn't topdeck an answer.

[Deep6er]

@Hanni: Counterbalance is so much stronger than Deed. ESPECIALLY when you have cards that fit the curve from one to three.

Genesis is not what I'm looking for. The upside to Volrath's Stronghold is that it taps for mana. It also doesn't depend on being in the graveyard. Also, it does things when you don't have creatures to bring back. Genesis would be better if I had more creatures. It was in the original build of the deck, but we decided that Stronghold would be better because we had few creatures.

Also, my Intuition piles are never standard. They always fit the situation. Occasionally, it's three Deeds. Sometimes, it's Shackles, Shackles, Witness. Other times, it's Counterbalance, Counterbalance, Counterbalance. I use Intuition to fit the situation, not to set up a situation.

Thoughtseize is not sufficient in the Counterspell slot. Dan and I went over this quite a bit and we both came to the conclusion that you can't really pay the life, nor do you really want something like that. Counterspell is much more of a "pick and choose". Most of the other cards in your opponents hands can be nullified by a fair portion of your deck. It's hitting the important topdecks that can't be stopped by Counterbalance that you should be looking for. However, even though Thoughtseize stops Krosan Grip (sometimes), it's not good enough for all the other situations that need stopping. Don't get me wrong though, we considered it for quite awhile. We just came to the conclusion that Counterspell fit the aims of the deck better.

@undone: I tried that. The fact that Blasts can't stop Chalice from happening is a big deal. I'm currently looking into better answers for Dragon Stompy and I'll definitely let you know when we come up with something good.

@Lonelybaritone: We used to have a second Witness in the board for situations like that (against control decks and Threshold). I decided that it was not the best choice for space that's on a high premium. I could however, go back to it. I've been thinking about it quite a bit. However, the second Witness in the main I wasn't happy with. The double green in the casting cost you might want to be a bit leery of. Even though the manabase is stable, if you use fetchlands poorly, you could still screw yourself out.

[undone]

Vs Dragonstompy you really need to have 8 Turn 0 counterspells or need more island/forest. I think that the next best actual counterspell is sadly.... Foil, which is pretty bad. But if you think that you HAVE to do something better then BEB thats probably the next best card as it can counter set up peices, and threats during a lock. But seriously if any deck in the format loses the roll, and they go first turn moon if you dont have force you need a 1 mana answer that can be played off a single basic.

Also Wierd thought Shattering spree, its funny under a moon....( JUST KIDDING PLEASE DONT ACTUALY USE THIS)

[Osse]

What are your thoughts on Vindicate? It's a pretty underrated card right now, and I think running it with Swords, EE, Deed would be kinda good. Thoughts?

How often are you pitching to Force? It seems you're a little low on blue cards so I'm curious as to how that's been working out. Is 3 Counterspell right, or can you just not find the space for a 4th?

[Deep6er]

I don't think Vindicate is the right card for this deck. Deed/Explosives can hit multiple permanents, and Swords costs a great deal less. I think it's underrated because it's just not as good as it used to be. It's too expensive to hit things in this "faster" Legacy. With things focused so much on tight curves and efficiency, Vindicate is using more mana to destroy a card than the card took to cast. That's too inefficient.

I'm not having any problems pitching to Force. Usually, I'm only using Force very early, when I still have a decent hand size, and using Counterbalance/Counterspell later where having the other blue card is irrelevant. As the game goes on, there are usually better/more answers to problematic spells than Force.

Three Counterspell is definitely a good number. I don't want to have my hand glutted with them, but I do want to see one a game. I don't really want to try to fit in the 4th either.

[Nihil Credo]

Nice summary.

1) Can you harp a bit more on what the usual purpose of Intuition is? The obvious stuff is Loam tricks, Witness tricks, and 3x of a card you really really want. What about the non-obvious uses?

2) Landstill matchup. I assume you refer to 4C Landstill? If so, have you tested against UWb lists?

3) A playset of Propagandas looks fairly attractive for those last SB slots. They own Ichorid if you can make it alive to turn 3 and they give fits to Goblins and random aggro, especially when paired with a Tarmogoyf in defence. On the other side, they do very little against Dragon Stompy except in multiples, or on the top of your library to counter Moons.

[thefreakaccident]

19 blue cards are plenty to support FoW....

I have found that propaganda is better at stalling against agro in decks like these, as that is all that plague does nowadays, stalls. Goblins wins through one plague and has grip for the second, most of the time it is a stall for deed/shackles...

Propaganda/ghostly prison both do this better (they only attack with max 2-3 guys a turn and have to tap out to do so)... then you deed/shackles... or even just block with goyf.

The blasts don't seem like too bad of an idea, you do have 5 ways around challice, add in the fact that challice @ one doesn't do too much, as it leaves you with your sweepers, countermagic, and blockers.

The real threat in that MU is the moon effects (as stated earlier), which should have priority for board space (they have 8 moons, 4 challice, odds they'll see moon B4 challice... blast works).

[Hanni]

Vs Dragonstompy you really need to have 8 Turn 0 counterspells or need more island/forest. I think that the next best actual counterspell is sadly.... Foil, which is pretty bad. But if you think that you HAVE to do something better then BEB thats probably the next best card as it can counter set up peices, and threats during a lock. But seriously if any deck in the format loses the roll, and they go first turn moon if you dont have force you need a 1 mana answer that can be played off a single basic.


The Dragonstompy matchup is easily fixed by dropping the white splash, running a couple more basics, and running Daze + Thoughtseize. My list actually has a very solid Dragon Stompy matchup.

If Dragonstompy is big in a particular metagame, BEB is exactly what you want in the sideboard for that matchup.

[Deep6er]

@Nihil: Those are most of the tricks for Intuition, however, the non-obvious uses that I like are pretty simple as well. Shuffle effect, getting triple Brainstorm for Counterbalance purposes, getting Goyf, Witness, Shackles to set up the win very quickly, and things like that.

Also, most of my testing was against 4C Landstill. I'll get to testing UWB Landstill when I have time. Although, it should be noted that it's NEVER played down here. If there is Landstill (which is dwindling), then it's usually 4C.

Propaganda is rather interesting. I'll definitely see if that's going to be a good fit. Thanks.

@Freakaccident: Yeah, the blasts might be a good call, but Dragon Stompy doesn't see too much play down here either. I might do that if it picks up and just hope for the best.

@Hanni: You're seriously downplaying how powerful Swords to Plowshares is. That card is hands-down the best removal in the format. Daze + Thoughtseize are pretty good cards, don't get me wrong, but I don't think that this deck AS IT STANDS NOW is going to be the best fit for them. Those cards work much better in THRESHOLD, and not in this deck.

[Bardo]

Dave - We've had this discussion over PM, but It's the Fear is very similar to the Vorosh deck I've been tweaking for ages. From what I gather, both decks are the evolution of Psychatog for us.

For reference:

"Vorosh"
U/b/g Landstill with Counter-Top / Goyf
by Bardo

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Counterbalance

3 Pernicious Deed
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Crucible of Worlds

4 Tarmogoyf

4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Breeding Pool

Sideboard
4 Engineered Plague
3 Hydroblast
3 Exirpate
3 Duress / Thoughtseize
2 Krosan Grip

In relation to the deck above it seems like ITF is essentially trades Standstill for Intuition + Witness / Stronghold and tricks with Academy Ruins; otherwise, these decks are both trying to do the same thing: control the board, counter some shit and then with a large Tarmogoyf over 3-4 turns.

Having logged a ton of hours with my ITF-variant, here's where I'm at:

* Ubgw vs Ubg, for me, comes down to StP vs. Wasteland / stable mana. The same thing strikes me about ITF.
* Academy Ruins is insanely slow in all but the mirror. Recurring EE with Ruins is theoretically sweet as hell, but in practice, it's a ton fucking mana and takes a depressing amount of time to actually set up. Though, vs. Thresh, an EE in the yard and Ruins on the board is often enough to elicit a scoop, so it can sometimes auto-win, albeit against an already favorable match.
* I've tested every funky land known to MtG-playing man (Maze of Ith, Tolaria West, Academy Ruins, Tabernacle, Treetop Village) and am pretty certain you don't need the ones that can't kill your opponent or tap for blue mana, Wasteland excepted. From my experience testing Ubg Tog (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/11397.html), long, long ago, Stronghold + Witness is an awesome synergy on paper, but like Ruins + EE, is very slow. I've dropped them all in favor of just having good, reliable mana and haven't missed tricks with Ruins, though I'm not running Intuition, which I'll agree adds more punch to the card.
* You might want to splash a Breeding Pool in place of a Trop. I'm not sure how often it's comes up for you, but Wasteland / Extirpate on a Trop is often an auto-loss.
* Vedalken Shackles is insane once active. Who doesn't love beating someone to death with their own stolen Tarmogoyf? But it's often 1-2 turns too slow to make a difference. I've been all over the place with the Shackles slot and think Diabolic Edict, does pretty much everything you want that card to do, quicker and for less hassle. The 3s are sometimes nice for CB, other times you just want to kill a Nimble Mongoose; though you do have the awesome StP backing up your removal. In that case, I would wonder how much you really need Shackles on top of your removal packages. They were overkill when I was running 4 StP + EEs & Deeds in 4c Landstill.


1) The sideboard. I haven't found much that I'm satisfied with in the last six slots.

Extirpate! That card does so much for so little.


2) Are there better Intuition targets? I've done a pretty thorough search, but I'm not certain yet.

You've out-ruled the Lonely Sandbar trick? I love Intuition and haven't found the magic-combo either. Have you tested Standstill in their place in this deck?


3) Numbers on Deed/Explosives.

I split the difference on 3/3, since both function similarly at different phases of the game. Quoting myself in the Ubg / Ubgw Landstill thread:

Here's how I see it. Once the game is underway, I would typically -- though not always -- want to have Deed, since it cleans up more and can best maximize the card advantage that can be gained by the sweepers. There may be some fringe reasons for wanting EE over Deed on turn 6 or so, but they're pretty minimal.

Turns 1 - 4, I almost always want EE, for the following reasons:

1) Can clear the board of all ETW token on turn 2 with any two lands in the deck

2a) Can be played and activated for 1 with only a basic Island + Wasteland + Factory. (etc.) That is, less acrobatics with your mana to produce the same effect.

2b) Doesn't force you to produce two different kinds of dual lands if you don't want to (e.g. you can nuke CBs, Goyfs, Confidants, 'what-have-yous' with just an Island + Trop + Factory)

3) In general, a turn faster ({C}{D}{E} + 2 activation; vs. 1BG [3] + x) vs. everything.

4) Picture of a bunch of elephants being detonated is just awesome.

5) [Fringe] Deed more likely to be Needle'd / Mage'd.

Again, Deed has many relative advantages over EE at different points of the game; but many other times I would rather be holding an EE (esp. the early game). Hence, the 3/3 split in my lists.

The card type diversity is also important to support Tarmogoyf.

Anyway, this is a cool deck and a nice write-up. I like it.

[Hanni]

@Hanni: You're seriously downplaying how powerful Swords to Plowshares is. That card is hands-down the best removal in the format. Daze + Thoughtseize are pretty good cards, don't get me wrong, but I don't think that this deck AS IT STANDS NOW is going to be the best fit for them. Those cards work much better in THRESHOLD, and not in this deck.

I know that StP is the best spot removal spell in the format, I wasn't disputing that. I was just saying that I personally did not like the manabase instability that came with it. Plus I play Genesis, which makes Shriekmaws amazing.

The other thing I was getting at was that Daze + Thoughtseize are great vs Dragonstompy and not that Daze would be a good choice in your build, because it wouldn't. My build is way more like Threshold while yours is way more like Landstill, like I mentioned earlier. Your matchup vs (board) control decks is going to be better than mine... in the same vein, my combo (and Dragonstompy) matchups should be better than yours.

[Deep6er]

OK, well couple of things here.

Academy Ruins also supports Vedalken Shackles in this deck. That's huge. Also, with Intuition backing it, it takes a great deal less time. Remember, that while Vorosh-still may approach it with similar cards, It's the Fear approaches it with a completely different mindset. Intuition and Standstill are vastly different cards and allow for vastly different approaches to things.

Also, you have SEVEN lands that don't tap for colored mana. I have two. You rely on your lands to help you win the game (attacking). I don't. All mine need to do is tap for mana. That's it. I argue that the miniscule amount of damage that they do to your manabase is well worth it. Don't forget, you use Crucible of Worlds to get back your attackers. I need to use Stronghold to make sure that I can do the same thing.

I'm not going to do that. Wasteland + Extirpate will beat me, sure. Whatever. I honestly do not care. That doesn't happen down here. Additionally, Shackles makes for a great win condition.

Vedalken Shackles vs. Diabolic Edict is an entirely different classification. While they both DO fit into the realm of "creature-control" Vedalken Shackles is ALSO card advantage. That's important. Also, Vedalken Shackles is a great foil to Goblins and Aggro strategies in general, while Diabolic Edict helps against ONE creature. I'll take the tradeoff.

I've never been happy with Extirpate. That card does so little. I really don't think that this deck compares well with Landstill. The aims are just different. It's the Fear is significantly more versatile in its approach to controlling and winning the game that it's like talking about apples and oranges.

I DO appreciate you taking time to talk about this though, but I'm reasonably certain that the decks are different enough to warrant a different look as opposed to looking at it through the Landstill players lens. No offense.

Also, the Lonely Sandbar trick is bad. THAT DEFINITELY takes too much time. The danger with Intuition is definitely the Danger of Cool Things. I've tried to keep it as focused as possible while still maintaining that versatility.

EDIT: @Hanni: My argument is that the sheer power of Swords to Plowshares is worth the slight manabase instability. I can tell you with a great deal of certainty that the manabase is much stronger than it looks. Also, Genesis + Shriekmaw requires a pretty fair bit of set up. Additionally, Shriekmaw just doesn't help against some things. Swords being instant speed and not worrying about other things like color is a great boon to what I'm trying to do.

[Hanni]

Also, the Lonely Sandbar trick is bad. THAT DEFINITELY takes too much time. The danger with Intuition is definitely the Danger of Cool Things. I've tried to keep it as focused as possible while still maintaining that versatility.


Cephalid Coliseum is much better. The lonely Sandbar trick requires multiples, Coliseum requires 1. Now I do agree that wasting the land drop for the turn to use its card advantage is definitely a drawback, its not something that needs to be done every turn. In my build, it also fills the role of getting both Genesis and Wonder in the yard, so I find its inclusion to be well deserved.


I DO appreciate you taking time to talk about this though, but I'm reasonably certain that the decks are different enough to warrant a different look as opposed to looking at it through the Landstill players lens. No offense.


I know this was addressed to Bardo... but I think its only going to strengthen the topic by listing and explaining similar decks. At the end of the day, the only thing that really matters is if the deck wins or not. There's going to be multiple different ways (decklists) to do that. The topic at hand is exactly what your topic header says... control in the new era.

For reference, I'll just go ahead and list my decklist on here as well:

U/G/b DAT Thresh (or TAT if you'd prefer, Thresh-a-Tog)

Lands (19)
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Wasteland

Creatures (15)
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Psychatog
1 Wonder
1 Genesis
3 Shriekmaw

Spells (26)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Thoughtseize
3 Pernicious Deed

Sideboard (15)
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Extirpate
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Stinkweed Imp
1 Gigapede

[spirit of the wretch]

Wow, so this finally is in the DtB-forum? I'll take credit for that =)
My teammate Marius and I played this deck to a top8 finish at a local 40 man tourney (and I won another small tourney with it) and I have to say: This deck is really brilliant!
But there're some points I don't like about it:
1.) The white splash. In my Metagame Stax and AggroLoam are a real force and the manabase of this deck is shaky at best, when confronted with multiple Wastelands (and you're unable to resolve an Intuition) and/or Blood Moon effects. I don't think the raw power of Swords (which I'm not questioning at all) is worth that.
2.) The lack of carddraw. This deck doesn't need the carddraw, if you're able to resolve a CB, but without it, there aren't really any opportunities for this deck to generate cardadvantage. There were some situations, where I wished I had access to real carddraw not just Brainstorm (mostly against control.decs).
3.) The name. This name is terrible - no offence intendet. Make it cooler =)

Anyway, after much deliberation with my teammate Clemens "der_imaginäre_Freunde" I came up with the following list:

The Glenlivet

4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Island
1 Swamp
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Academy Ruins
1 Wasteland

3 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Psychatog
1 Eternal Witness

1 Engineered Explosives
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Vedalken Shackles
4 Counterbalance
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Intuition
4 Smother
1 Life from the Loam

Sideboard:
4x Extirpate
4x BEB
4x Plague
3x Grip

Clemens doesn't like the Bobs (he opted for AKs) but so far, they have been treating me well.

[Bardo]

Academy Ruins also supports Vedalken Shackles in this deck. That's huge. Also, with Intuition backing it, it takes a great deal less time.

2U + 2U [Ruins] + 3 [Shackles] + 2 [activation] = 9UU. Sayin'. You could play Sway of the Stars for less mana. :)


Remember, that while Vorosh-still may approach it with similar cards, It's the Fear approaches it with a completely different mindset. Intuition and Standstill are vastly different cards and allow for vastly different approaches to things.

I thought about this. Agreed, in my mind almost immediately, and then I went to make some Tomato soup and am now going to disagree.

Both Vorosh are ITF are [i]control decks with quasi-combo elements; CB+Top and Crucible / Wasteland (Vorosh) or Intuition / Ruins / Stronghold (ITF). In other words, I wouldn't confuse tactics with strategy. Standstill is trying to do a similar thing as Intuition: getting what you need to mitigate some problem (some form of menacing permanent [creatures, etc.] or something dangerous coming from your opponent's hand) that Deed/EE/StP or CB, CSpell, Force can provide.

Intuition is gaming to set you up with the tools you need; Standstill is gaming to draw you into a similar set of tools. I do agree that Intuition is much more subtle and has a lot more room for customization, at the cost of being slower.

Anyway, I would argue that Standstill and Intuition are performing similar roles here. Neither specifically do anything on their own or directly have any effect on the game; they're catalysts for other parts of the deck that do have an affect.


I really don't think that this deck compares well with Landstill. The aims are just different. It's the Fear is significantly more versatile in its approach to controlling and winning the game that it's like talking about apples and oranges.

Just to continue the thought above, and not wanting to get into some pointless semantical debate, I think Vorosh and ITF are more similar than you realize. Both are -- as I said above -- about controlling the game through some means (Deed, CB) and then winning with Tarmogoyf.

(Don't let the Factories throw you off. Back in the day, I had a 1-of Factory as an alt. win condition with Intuition + LFTL in Tog, before Tarmogoyf was printed. With Standstill being added, it seemed natural to just max the card. Truly though, 4/5 games are won with Mr. Goyf. Factory mainly has some nice synergy with other parts of the deck.)


Also, you have SEVEN lands that don't tap for colored mana. I have two. You rely on your lands to help you win the game (attacking). I don't. All mine need to do is tap for mana. That's it. I argue that the miniscule amount of damage that they do to your manabase is well worth it.

I definitely agree here. Supporting four colors with only two lands that tap for colorless is a hell of a lot different than supporting four colors with 6-7 lands that tap for colorless. This is a valid point.


Vedalken Shackles vs. Diabolic Edict is an entirely different classification. While they both DO fit into the realm of "creature-control" Vedalken Shackles is ALSO card advantage.

Definitely, I've argued the same point from your side too. Shackles is card advantage for 2.5 the investment as Edict. If it's worth the cost, and you're in a match where you have the time to pull it off, it's definitely worth it, since it totally dominates the board once active. Though it does cost 3+2 instead of 1B.


I'm reasonably certain that the decks are different enough to warrant a different look as opposed to looking at it through the Landstill players lens. No offense.

Not to be redundant, but I'm trying to look at these things from the control player's perspective, not as a "Landstill player" or something.


Also, the Lonely Sandbar trick is bad. THAT DEFINITELY takes too much time. The danger with Intuition is definitely the Danger of Cool Things. I've tried to keep it as focused as possible while still maintaining that versatility.

Agreed again. It's certainly a fun once it's up and running, but it's slow as hell and not really any better than a Fact or Fiction for a lot less effort.


2.) The lack of carddraw.

In Dave's defense, I'd argue that Intuition serves as the deck's draw.


3.) The name.

Dude, this is the guy who brought us "Solidarity," a monoblue storm combo decks. It should be no surprise. Though, I totally agree. :)

[Mister Agent]

I am with bardo on this one his Vorosh and ITF are very similiar decks. However playing Tarmogoyf and then playing standstill is one of the most broken plays you can possibly do. I do like both decks and I wouldn't mind taking either deck to a big event.

[mackaber]

Spirit of the Wretch: Really like your list... There can't be anything wrong with playing DC ever... I am 100% convinced he is the best black spell in the format. One suggestion though. To further enhance the utility of Volraths Stronghold you cold replace one smother with 1 shriekmaw or have you tried this out before?

[b4r0n]

That was also my reaction. Shriekmaw seems like a natural fit with Stronghold, and allows for Intuition piles like Loam/Stronghold/Shriekmaw.

Tombstalker also seems like a good fit for the deck, as Hanni mentioned. Was it ever considered, perhaps as a replacement for Tog?

[Osse]

How much thought has gone into the creature base? I'm fully aware of the power of Goyf, Tog, etc. But I'm curious as to how much, is too much, or too little. I'm playing a deck somewhat similar - by similar I mean Ubg Control that isn't Landstill - and found that 4 Goyf wasn't enough. I'm running 4 Goyf, 3 Stalker and to say the least Stalker is busted good. Getting around EE, Deed and all the other mass removal is great, and along with BalanceTop you can basically play around STP or other removal like Edict.

As for the Sideboard, you almost definitely, without a doubt, want BEBs, in some of your worst matchups; Burn, Goblins, DStompy, Beb is amazing.

Confidant with EE and Deed seems iffy at best, like Clemens I opted for AK with Intuition and It's worked out "decent" I'm not exactly comfortable with it, but I can't find anything else thats better.

If someone wants the list, say so, I don't want to spam the thread with a list.

[Illissius]

This is definitely an interesting deck, and if you finally found a way to make Intuition.dec competitive, I commend you for it.

My initial reactions are:

- This seems very top-heavy. You have a whole ton of late game card advantage engines which require a pretty big mana investment and don't help you much in the early game: Intuition, CounterTop, and Shackles (and Deed). Any one of these is often enough to lock up the game after you've stabilized early. Accordingly, I would expect the deck to have an amazing late game (meaning it smashes Threshold and most other control), and to have trouble against an early offense; but your testing doesn't seem to bear this second part out. 65% against Goblins? Seriously? Does Goblins autolose to any deck with both Tarmogoyf and Swords to Plowshares in it?

- I counted the lands. There's 21 of them. Is that remotely enough? (Especially with all the mana intensive late game cards, as above). This also ties in to the three versus four colors discussion you're having with Bardo: his deck has 6-7 colorless lands to your 2, but it has them with 24-25 lands total. Doing the math, you're only ahead 19 colored mana sources to his 18.

Being a sucker for Intuition/Gifts engines myself, here's some cards the deck doesn't include but could: Dust Bowl, Maze of Ith, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Cephalid Coliseum, Shriekmaw, Tormod's Crypt, Nevinyrral's Disk, Mindslaver, Darkblast, Moment's Peace. In fact, it shouldn't include most of those, but it's a list to look at if you wanted one.

[Hanni]

This seems very top-heavy. You have a whole ton of late game card advantage engines which require a pretty big mana investment and don't help you much in the early game: Intuition, CounterTop, and Shackles (and Deed). Any one of these is often enough to lock up the game after you've stabilized early.

When I originally saw this thread, I thought the exact same thing. I've been working off and on with my decklist ever since Lorwyn was released (sooner than that really, since I used to run Wild Mongrel in the Goyf spots, almost 2 years ago). The biggest issue the deck always had was that it was way too slow. That's the reason why I'm so biased towards my decklist... it takes all the tempo elements of Threshold and blends in mid-late game control engines. Personally, I think running Intuition + Loam, Deed, CounterTop, and Shackles in the same deck is overkill. Dave's deck has performed well at tournaments though, so the deck is obviously strong. It's been my personal opinion ever since I started posting in the TarmoTog thread that this archtype is easily the best deck in the format. Intuition Thresh, basically.

[spirit of the wretch]

Spirit of the Wretch: Really like your list... There can't be anything wrong with playing DC ever... I am 100% convinced he is the best black spell in the format. One suggestion though. To further enhance the utility of Volraths Stronghold you cold replace one smother with 1 shriekmaw or have you tried this out before?

I also thought of Shriekmaw but hesitatet, because this deck is already pretty mana hungry (so you won't be hardcasting that guy very often) and he neither synergie with CB nor with DC. But being able to kill a creature each turn sure seems tempting. Maybe I'll give it a try at our local tourney this WE.

Btw you aren't Alex Mack by any chance, are you?

[mackaber]

Btw you aren't Alex Mack by any chance, are you?

In fact I am. Servuz.

[Mayk0l]

Pray to whatever gods you hold dear. Also, don't forget about Shackles. Stealing their Ichorid and then removing their Bridges at the end of the turn is KEY.

I've read this a couple of times now but I fail to see how this would work. When Ichorid is sacrificed at the end of the turn, it goes to its owner's graveyard and never even looks in the direction of yours, and creates tokens like it always does.

[raharu]

I've never been happy with Extirpate. That card does so little. I really don't think that this deck compares well with Landstill. The aims are just different. It's the Fear is significantly more versatile in its approach to controlling and winning the game that it's like talking about apples and oranges.

Really? Extirpate either ruins or severely hapmers any deck you would want to board it in against.

[diffy]

Shriekmaw : being able to kill a creature each turn sure seems tempting.

Doesn't Ruins + EE do exactly the same thing but without taking up a slot? For sure it's slightly more mana hungry (most of the time costing :2: more) but by the time you're going for recursion engines, you should already be in the late mid- to early lategame where the more powerful effect will surely make up for the extra mana you have to pay.

Also, here's my list:



/// Maindeck (60 cards)

// Lands (23)
1 Academy Ruins
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Wasteland
1 Lonely Sandbar
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
1 Breeding Pool
3 Underground Sea
3 Island
1 Swamp

// Creatures (5)
1 Psychatog
4 Tarmogoyf

// Removal (8)
2 Smother
1 Chainer's Edict
1 Vedalken Shackles
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Engineered Explosives

// Card Advantage (16)
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge
1 Life from the Loam
1 Eternal Witness
3 Intuition

// Permission (8)
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will

/// Sideboard (15 cards)
2 Duress
1 Stinkweed Imp
1 Yixlid Jailer
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Extirpate
2 Trygon Predator
2 Hydroblast
3 Blue Elemental Blast


Curve:
cmc :1: - ||||||| - 7
cmc :2: - |||||||||||||||| - 16
cmc :3: - ||||||||| - 9

Blue Card Count: 20
Average Converted Mana Cost: 2.32

Let me explain some choices:
No White Splash and 23 Lands - I always felt that the 20-21 landcount of the original version is way too low, especially since some of your lands are utility lands and because this deck thrives if it has more mana as the recursion engines and your removal package (Deed) are all pretty mana intensive.
Lonely Sandbar over Cephalid Coliseum - while Coliseum is the stronger effect when you have a Loam-Engine going, I was told by Stefan that the deck in practice only has two ways towards victory: Waste-Lock and Balance-Lock. Now Lonely Sandbar doesn't eat your landdrop every time you want to draw cards which is especially important when you want to Waste-Lock your opponent as without Sandbar you'll be missing your draw every turn to Dredge Loam giving your opponent time to draw into stuff to recover while you stay with the same board state (no more lands, no more cards than before starting the lock) which is bad. Also, Sandbar fits in rather nicely into the Waste-Lock Intuition pile (Lonely Sandbar, Wasteland, Life from the Loam) and is pretty nutty in conjunction with Tog in the lategame where you can just Cycle+Dredge 'n' times to get your Tog up to lethal Grave+Hand count more quickly than with Coliseum (or at least more quickly in one turn).
Only one Vedalken Shackles - while Shackles is a busted effect and very potent, it is just too slow especially since this deck already has a formidable lategame. I'll rather take some hard removal over it (Smother, Edict) and see what's next than have the opportunity to go nuts two turns later. Also, with 5 non-Island lands (21.7% of total manabase) you won't be able to consistently stop that Tarmogoyf on turn4. I've kept one in for more lategame brokenness and Intuition piles.
Accumulated Knowledge over Dark Confidant - first of all, Accumulated Knowledge is a Blue Card giving a necessary boost to your blue card count... although you don't need to counter a lot because you play Pernicious Deed (aka. answer to everything), you still want to be able to to so consistently and all the time throughout the game. This obviously isn't the main reason to play Accumulated Knowledge, but it's a point that shouldn't be overlooked. Also, I've tested Dark Confidant, he's broken and all, but the aggro matchup already is bad enough as it is so that we should avoid making it even worse. I've often found myself in midgame situations where I didn't want to cast Dark Confidant because I was on quite low life despite desperately needing cards. Now Accumulated Knowledge fixes this. Also, Dark Confidant isn't that good in the lategame in general: as mentioned above you tend to be quite low on life making him slightly shacky but also Dark Confidant is slower than Accumulated Knowledge in the lategame. In addition to this, Dark Confidant does also have a gigantic 'target' sign on his front meaning that your opponent's removal now isn't semi-dead any more which isn't exactly what you want (you normally only drop a beater when you have Balance + Top down to protect them due to you not playing infinite of them). Lastly, Dark Confidant isn't exactly synergistic with neither Pernicious Deed nor Engineered Explosives. Now I know that this won't happen often as if you're popping a Deed/Explo while blowing up some of your own stuff you're still making a profit out of it, but I don't want to make such a vital part like my Card Advantage Engine more vulnerable than you absolutely need.
The sideboard is pretty random, but I really like both the Blue Blasts and the Trygon Predators, at least for the South West Germany Meta. The lone Stinkweed Imp is additional removal that can be thrown into an Intuition pile and has its merits.

Playing some manlands seems techy - better Landstill Matchup and more critters is always nice, I don't have a clue how to include them currently as the manabase is bad enough as it is already.
I still don't know if Eternal Witness is worth it... for sure the 'recur everything' trick is pretty nice, but Witness is on the high side of the curve and on the bad side colour wise making it always rather clunky.

[Illissius]

Isn't Dust Bowl preferable to Wasteland for Intuition/Loam piles, if you only run a singleton? Admittedly Lonely Sandbar is a workaround for this issue, but otherwise Loaming Wasteland forces you to skip your draw every turn, whereas with Dust Bowl you only have to skip every third draw to recoup the lost lands.

[freakish777]

Not true. The Ichorid touches your graveyard (triggering their Bridges) and then immediately checks state based effects and transfers it to your opponent's graveyard.

I think you're wrong.

217.1a If an object would go to any library, graveyard, or hand other than its owner's, it goes to its owner's corresponding zone. If an instant or sorcery card would come into play, it remains in its previous zone.

I'm pretty sure cards you didn't own never hit your graveyard, your hand, or your library (I think Wizard's reasoning for this is to avoid people accidently walking off with other people's cards). I think you're thinking of "goes to the graveyard from play" triggers, for instance if you Shackle'd an Academy Rector, you'd control the trigger since it triggers from in play instead of in the graveyard.

[nitewolf9]

I think people are very much underestimating the white splash in this deck, or swords to plowshares I should say. Having practically unconditional efficient removal is invaluable in a control deck like this. You have plenty of power in the mid/late game, it's getting there that's the problem. You can't just hope your opponent isn't playing black creatures, or things like mystic enforcer/tombstalker (also black but more importantly immune to deed/smother). There is no effective substitute for swords to plowshares. No other removal spell comes close.

Life from the loam also does a very good job of fixing your manabase, trust me. I've playtested eva green against this deck and it's much closer than I thought it would be (probably right at 50%). The only real issue is an early blood moon, and that resolving would be a big problem for the 3 color builds as well. Like Dave said, you have to make some compromises if you want to play all of the best spells. Is it worth it? If your meta is over 40% or so Dragon Stompy, maybe not. Otherwise, I think so.

Additionally I think more people should test their decks against good threshold lists/pilots. You'll be surprised.

[raharu]

On a side note: two questions

1) Why wouldn't you want to run a evasive finisher like Mystic Enforcer? I understand the aversion to Psychatog (lackluster win-con is lackluster, and it doesn't do anything until it swings for lethal), but considering that Enforcer is hard to remove and omnoms face in a rapid fashion when you need it to, I don't see why you wouldn't want to run it.

2) More LtfL in the SB? I understand the reasoning, but with Intuition you have 5 copies in the MD. Is it because you don't think you could/ havn't been able to reach 3 lands on a consistant basis?

[Nihil Credo]

It's the Fear is a bit of a difficult deck to describe. It's capable of controlling the game in a similar manner to Landstill, but it's also capable of winning the game with counter backup in a quick manner similar to Threshold. It's capable of answering a wide variety of threats and it's also capable of drawing a tremendous amount of cards. In addition to all this, the deck is rather versatile about how to approach matchups.

It just came to me that perhaps the words you are looking for are "Good-Stuff Deck".

[Mister Agent]

I actually like Clemens build considering you have more options to choose from with intuition. I will just name a few of those options.

-Accumulated Knowledge: I always liked accumulated knowledge with intuition. I think it's still a powerful draw engine as a whole in the current environment in my opinion. The ability to filter out cards and still draw several cards gives any control deck advantages. Considering you can draw what you need in a consistent and a reasonable time frame. Also accumulated knowledge has multiple use in this deck besides drawing a good chunk of cards.

-Chainer's Edict: I like this edict better then diabolic edict considering it's flashback cost can be a invalueble asset via intuition.

-Eternal witness:I'd say the more options you can grab with intuition the better eternal witness becomes in a direct proportional way. I mean since witness costs double green you should make the most out of it since it can be stressful on your manabase.

-Life from the loam: Now with Ak you can actually bring back your loam much more rapidly which is a great asset. Sometimes it's just better to do it now then later.

[Deep6er]

OK, well Freakish was right. I saw two conflicting rules for this from a long time ago, and upon confirmation (of a sort, with Star City), it seems I'm wrong. Sorry about that. Anyway, on to the other replies.

@Bardo: Counterbalance + Top is NOT a combo. It's a soft lock. That's vastly different. If we were racing to combo those cards, we would both be playing things like Ponder and things of that nature. Looking at Counterbalance + Top as a combo is overemphasizing one aspect of the deck. Yeah, it's good, don't get me wrong, but it should not be the sole aspect of the deck. Also, since it doesn't outright win you the game right there, it's not nor can it be considered the end-all of a game.

I really don't think that you can call Intuition slower than Standstill. Sure, Standstill costs one less, but it's never been my experience that they break it immediately. More often than not, they wait 2+ turns before breaking it. Which actually puts it as slower than Intuition.

While I can grant that they are similar, I think Intuition is a better card than Standstill. It doesn't force you into slowing the game down, and is a dead topdeck in fewer situations than Standstill is. Additionally, it means that you're probably going to run Mishra's Factory which I think is a poor land/creature. Intuition doesn't put constraints on deckbuilding. In fact, it does the opposite. It's so versatile as to almost embody the principles of the Dangers of Cool Things. Standstill cannot do that.

Also, thank you. Intuition DOES serve as the deck's source of card advantage and this IS the guy who brought you Solidarity. What's wrong with the name? I like it a lot. As do two of my other friends who've helped me with the deck from the beginning. Isn't that the important part?

@b4ron: Tombstalker was originally considered in what came to be Tarmogoyf/Psychatog's spot. I was unhappy with him because of the EXTREME lack of synergy between Delve and recurring cards. However, originally there was a Regrowth (which was terrible), so I might consider looking into him now. I don't know what I'd cut for him, or even if I need him, but I'll look into it.

@Raharu: Why do I need an evasive beater? Shackles answers everything except for Nimble Mongoose and for that I have Deed/Explosives. Honestly, the best evasive finisher I can run is Shackles.

Life from the Loam in the sideboard means that I DON'T have to Intuition for it. It means that I'm free to get other cards that I boarded in and have them be just as powerful. Or, it allows me to reduce the number of maindeck cards in certain matchups because it allows me to not be forced into getting Life from the Loam to set up engines. Also, it's a great card. Fantastic for fighting mana denial strategies.

@DIF: I'm going to have to post replies to you and Spirit of the Wretch's build later. I gotta go. Sorry.

[raharu]

@Raharu: Why do I need an evasive beater? Shackles answers everything except for Nimble Mongoose and for that I have Deed/Explosives. Honestly, the best evasive finisher I can run is Shackles.

A valid question, but I'll answer this question instead and hope the answers overlap: Why would you want to play Mystic Enforcer, specifically in this deck?

It synergizes with your Intuition/ Life from the Loam stacks/ engine. It has evasion on a 6/6 body. While Tarmogoyf is generally a 4/5 in most circimstances, Mystic Enforce has merit in comparison because you can lay it turn four or five, throw your opponent on a 3 turn clock (in most cases) that is immune to any and all spot-removal not named Swords to Plowshares. Basicly, it's a threat that doesn't have to be babysitted, doesn't need to have it's path cleared for it, and doesn't leave much time for a solution to be found. Most decks have played 2 fetchlands by turn 4 or 5. So, that means Mystic Enforcer is a 3 turn clock after it hits the table. 3 natural draws to, in short, find a Swords to Plowshares. Deed generally can't touch it (another reason that it's good in the deck), if it takes a Wrath of God you're most likely going to be happy because it's a 1-1 trade that you're most likely to get back (Voltath's Stronghold), and not much else answers it after it comes down. As a one-of, I can't see why it wouldn't make the deck that much better by giving the deck a threat and a finisher that does something before it swings for lethal (i.e. not Psychatog).

Well, I'm done :]

[mackaber]

Has anyone done serious testing with any incarnation of this dec versus combo? Seems like the dec will need to primarily rely on CB/top to beat combo and I'm pretty sure that's not sufficient when not backed by a clock or additional disruption (besides the obv FoW).

[Deep6er]

In tournament experience against both TES and Fetchland Tendrils, I've come out ahead. Counterbalance, Counterspell, Force of Will, followed by Tarmogoyf is pretty hard. It's very similar to how Threshold will beat them, but I have maindeck outs to Empty the Warrens.

Just based on tournament experience, I'd say the matchup is fairly even possibly favoring It's the Fear. Not by a wide margin mind you, but probably around a 55-60% matchup in It's the Fear's favor.

[Zach Tartell]

In tournament experience against both TES and Fetchland Tendrils, I've come out ahead. Counterbalance, Counterspell, Force of Will, followed by Tarmogoyf is pretty hard. It's very similar to how Threshold will beat them, but I have maindeck outs to Empty the Warrens.

Just based on tournament experience, I'd say the matchup is fairly even possibly favoring It's the Fear. Not by a wide margin mind you, but probably around a 55-60% matchup in It's the Fear's favor.

I'll admit that having Counterspell is an asset, but you have like a third or... four ninths? of the threats of Thresh. Even a goose is a good clock compared to an opponent who you could just Chant.

[nitewolf9]

I'll admit that having Counterspell is an asset, but you have like a third or... four ninths? of the threats of Thresh. Even a goose is a good clock compared to an opponent who you could just Chant.

Don't forget that you can also EOT intuition for 3 goyfs if you need a clock, especially since you only need one in that matchup. Gota love intuition.

[Shugyosha]

I'll admit that having Counterspell is an asset, but you have like a third or... four ninths? of the threats of Thresh. Even a goose is a good clock compared to an opponent who you could just Chant.

Threshold usually plays it slow and controllish here so Geese often have the problem of reaching threshold unless they combo early and you counter alot but in this case you are in a good position anyways. Large beaters rarely see play here because you want to leave your mana open most of the time and you will be cantripping for counters not lands.

Tarmogoyfs on the other hand are big pretty big due to combo's usually high artifact and sorcery count.


Don't forget that you can also EOT intuition for 3 goyfs if you need a clock, especially since you only need one in that matchup. Gota love intuition.

Or 3 Counterbalance if you play them.

[nitewolf9]

Or 3 Counterbalance

Yes, obviously, but I thought we were talking about when you had counterbalance and needed to finish them off. Although I think you can take your time if you have the counterbalance lock set up.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Let me be the first to admit that I'm completely biased towards my own deck (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=224704&postcount=124), but I'm with Hanni on most/all of his points. The biggest disadvantage that I see with Stronghold right now is that although it taps for mana, it taps for colourless mana in a 4-colour deck whose removal is entirely dependent upon coloured mana. I tried to go 4c with my own deck some time ago, but like Hanni I went back to three colours for stability. Granted, the build was not quite like this one--still, I found that I was really making an Achilles Heel out of an already shaky manabase (at the time). Indeed, the most serious problem, for me, was that when I fetched out Tundras for my removal (StP), I was actually cutting myself off from my more pro-active plays (Deed, creatures, etc.). Just for fun, and to keep up the dialogue, how about a list of pros and cons for each?


Genesis:

Pros:

-Can be hardcast (in-colour fatty)
-Card advantage (doesn't eat a draw, leaving more room for main phase choices)
-Recurs creatures
-Immune to Pithing Needle

Cons:

-Must be in the graveyard (vulnerable to graveyard hate, requries some form of discard)
-Mana-intensive (3 mana)




Volrath's Stronghold:

Pros:

-Recurs creatures
-Produces mana
-Not as vulnerable to temporary graveyard hate

Cons:

-Needs creatures in the graveyard (still slightly vulnerable to graveyard hate)
-Mana-intensive (3 mana)
-Vulnerable to mana-hate (Blood Moon effects, Wasteland, Back to Basics, etc.)
-Eats a draw (particularly problematic with Academy Ruins)
-Produces colourless mana in 4c deck
-Vulnerable to Pithing Needle
-Since it needs to hit play, Life from the Loam becomes a necessary support structure, since it's harder to Intuition it into your hand



Now, all those led me, personally, to cut out Stronghold and rely only on Genesis. Overall, I feel it's a safer move--particularly since Genesis isn't too hard to hardcast, either.



Also, to pick up on Hanni's point about StP, I too do not feel it's a necessary or even particularly useful addition to the deck. It doesn't open up much sideboard-wise (the white mana, that is), and all it's useful for is removing a creature or ramping up EE to four (and really, what costs four that's not easier to remove with Deed?). The cost to the deck's manabase and consistency, however, seems far too significant. With Deed AND (recurring) EE, all you need StP for are Reanimator-sized fatties--so why not instead opt for something that can both take care of many such fatties and up your redundancy factor by being recurrable (e.g. Shriekmaw)? It's hard to strike the right balance between Shriekmaw and other removal, but you don't need many for it to be effective, particularly with so many sweepers. It's easily complemented by Sudden Death, Damnation, etc., and it has the added bonus of greatly strengthening your manabase, leaving you with significantly better Landstill and Dragon Stompy matchups (although, given the decklist, probably still not stellar). Hell, you're even running Shackles, so what use is StP, really?

I think that the question that needs to be asked about StP is which matchups it improves in a manner that some other form of (in-colour) removal could not.

And since you're already running the Intuition engine, why not consider Wonder and Cephalid Coliseum (as Hanni also mentioned)? They're a perfect fit.

[raharu]

@ Hanni and Goaswerfraiejen: There is a glaring lack of Counterbalance in both of your lists. This fundemental difference drasticly alters the way that the decks play, pretty much mitigating just about every comparision that you can make.

EDIT: It doesn't really matter if Stronghold eats your draws in the late game because you most likely have a CB Soft-lock so that you don't have to have cards in hand to answer threats.

StP isn't that useful of addition? What?

[Citrus-God]

@Hanni and Gaoswerfraiejen:

I hope to god you two realize that your concept and game play philosophies on your decks is completely different from It's the Fear. It's the Fear is a control deck. Period. Both your lists are aggressive midgame decks with LftL as a draw engine. Gearhart's deck is Control first, Aggro second. You can tell because he's running Counterbalance as a soft lock engine as well as another completely different engine involving recursion of removal to make the game play like Keeper. So folks, it's Keeper 2k8. it fixed many flaws of the old Keeper (lack of narrow cards, more aggressive win conditions, utilization of card quality advantage).


Also, why does Stronghold matter when you can Intuition for your tools and keep recurring them? You need removal? Sure, Intuition for the things you need. Sweeped the board clean? Well Intuition for 3 CB or something like that.

Stronghold doesnt kill your draws. If you're afraid that Stronghold kills your draws, Intuition for Meditate and draw away.

[Shugyosha]

Volrath's Stronghold:

Cons:

-Needs creatures in the graveyard (still slightly vulnerable to graveyard hate)
-Mana-intensive (3 mana)
-Vulnerable to mana-hate (Blood Moon effects, Wasteland, Back to Basics, etc.)
-Eats a draw (particularly problematic with Academy Ruins)
-Produces colourless mana in 4c deck
-Vulnerable to Pithing Needle
-Since it needs to hit play, Life from the Loam becomes a necessary support structure, since it's harder to Intuition it into your hand

I don't see the cons here.

-Sure it needs a creature thats the point of a recur strategy after all.

-It strains the mana base less than Genesis. The creature you usually recur is Tarmogoyf which costs you 3GG to recur and play with genesis vs. 3GB with stronghold which is much better especially in a 4c build. Now imagine Witness recur and play with Genesis: 3GGG.

-Stronghold is a utility card for intuition. Its a non-mana slot as Genesis. You cannot count it to you land base, it just happens to have a mana ability.

-In a deck with Deed, Explosives, Tog (CounterTop) I think there are better things to Needle most of the time or otherwise your Needle wouldn't last long.

-If you draw Stronghold early it can go only really quick and makes mana. Genesis is just a dead hand card unless you happen to get 5 mana, tap out and hope no Swords come along.

If counterbalance is played you can also use Stronghold to put a creature with the right casting cost on top.

[Deep6er]

@Go... something (sorry, but your name is really hard): There are quite a few things you're missing in your analysis of Stronghold vs. Genesis.

1) Pithing Needle. If they're using Needle on Stronghold as opposed to DEED, EXPLOSIVES, Academy Ruins, Sensei's Divining Top, or Vedalken Shackles, then I'm perfectly happy with them making a gigantic glaringly huge mistake. That's not a drawback nor can it be considered one.

2) You're forgetting that using Genesis' ability is going to likely eat a turn. Three mana and then the mana required to play the creature is VASTLY different from using Stronghold AT THE END OF YOUR OPPONENT'S TURN in order to set it up for your turn. Secondly, that does NOT count as "eating a draw", it's like you drew a card that was EXACTLY WHAT YOU WANTED. There's no lost card advantage.

3) Volrath's Stronghold is not in any way hampered by graveyard hate. It's because it still does something even when it can't do that other purpose. It still taps for mana. Genesis will not do anything in the graveyard. Additionally, getting Genesis into the graveyard usually requires doing something in addition to just having him in your deck. Volrath's Stronghold requires no such prerequisite. You play the land, and then later, you're free to activate the ability if you want.

4) Life from the Loam is already part of an important support structure to the deck. That argument is flawed because I rarely search up Stronghold (or Ruins). Life from the Loam is a generally useful card that I occasionally search up in order to get some more lands in play.

These are all important factors that you kind of glossed right on over. I know you're a big fan of TarmoTog, but this isn't that deck nor does it want to be.

Your points about Swords are mind boggling. Swords is an incredibly powerful tool that allows you to deal with creatures unconditionally. That unconditionally part there is a big deal. You never have to worry about your opponent having black creatures, or other stupid crap like that. Additionally, Swords is active from turn one. Which matters quite a bit for that Lackey opening.

Also, I've stated time and again that the manabase is fine and that I've had no problems with it. Even in the face of Wasteland. Sure, the time I lost to Aggro Loam at the NoVA Legacy Draft (where he drew 7 Wastelands) might be a factor, but that's an abnormality, not the norm. Seriously.

Also, I said that I had no problems playing against Landstill. In fact, that's one of the matchups that I want to see the most. I LOVE playing against Landstill with It's the Fear. I'm not afraid of them in the slightest.

I will admit to being slightly worried about Dragon Stompy, but that's because Chalice of the Void, Trinisphere, Moon effects and fast beaters should be a worry for most decks. Fortunately, that deck doesn't always do what it's trying to do and thus doesn't dominate the format. Dragon Stompy has it's own problems keeping it out of popularity so why not let the Dragon Stompy players worry about that. The point is, you're inflating this supposed "weak manabase" argument out of proportion.

Wonder and Cephalid Coliseum are not useful. Why do I care if my creatures fly? Why do I need to bend my cards out of proportion in order to hopefully, maybe score some card advantage? After all, Cephalid Coliseum + Life from the Loam is a two card combo that gets you some card advantage. Conversely, I can just NOT run Cephalid Coliseum and be perfectly happy without it. Wonder? The hell? Why? That doesn't even make sense.

Raharu is right. What the hell are you guys talking about?

[Parcher]

I will admit to being slightly worried about Dragon Stompy, but that's because Chalice of the Void, Trinisphere, Moon effects and fast beaters should be a worry for most decks. Fortunately, that deck doesn't always do what it's trying to do and thus doesn't dominate the format. Dragon Stompy has it's own problems keeping it out of popularity so why not let the Dragon Stompy players worry about that.

Not to derail the thread, but I have some questions about this.

1. I have tested Dragon Stompy more than anyone, and against seasoned players with a variety of decks. It "does what it is trying to do" as consistantly as any non-Threshold deck in Legacy. And does it better than most.

2. Dragon Stompy is a somewhat new deck, and is very different from certain current strategies. Popularity is a relative term, and only has importance in personal metagames. Whatever "problems" you percieve should be better itemized.

3. As far as "dominating", for the amount of times it has been piloted by competant players at tournaments, I don't think a single deck has had better placements in the past six months than Dragon Stompy except maybe TES.

4. Solidarity was nether popular, nor widely played. It also has some glaring holes that while rarely faced in a tournament setting, completely hosed the deck. And both of us have seen it go on and on, and fail to "do what it was trying to do", with far more slots devoted to manipulation than Dragon Stompy. Yet for a time, it was a deck that every Legacy deckbuilder had to consider when choosing for a tournament. Would you classify these two decks in the same category?

[Hanni]

@Hanni and Gaoswerfraiejen:

I hope to god you two realize that your concept and game play philosophies on your decks is completely different from It's the Fear. It's the Fear is a control deck. Period. Both your lists are aggressive midgame decks with LftL as a draw engine. Gearhart's deck is Control first, Aggro second. You can tell because he's running Counterbalance as a soft lock engine as well as another completely different engine involving recursion of removal to make the game play like Keeper. So folks, it's Keeper 2k8. it fixed many flaws of the old Keeper (lack of narrow cards, more aggressive win conditions, utilization of card quality advantage).

They are both control decks... my deck is aggro/control early and board control mid-late. I just don't utilize as much control as David's list because I'm hybridized. My list doesn't use Lftl as a draw engine nearly as much as it uses Genesis as a draw engine... and yes, Genesis IS a draw engine. That's why I prefer it over Stronghold. My deck has recurrable removal too with Genesis + Shriekmaw... the only difference is that our removal doesn't hit artifacts/enchantments/black creatures but is more cost effecient.

I didn't pop into this thread to say my deck was better... I popped on this thread because the decklists are very similar in concept and design. ITF wants to Intuition for engine pieces and so does TarmoTog/DAT Thresh... both lists want to use recurable creatures and removal. CounterTop not being in our lists is a moot point because we could easily fit it if we reworked the deck to accomodate it (and I haven't because I don't think it's necessary in my shell). The only difference is that this deck is assuming a pure control role while our decks combine aggro/control with pure control... and I think there are pros and cons to both directions, which was why I posted in this thread in the first place.

The problem with my deck before was that it has always been too slow... I've been working with DAT and Aggro DAT since 2006. I've finally got it to a point where I think I've found a good balance. David's deck is obviously slower, as Bardo pointed out... for example, Intuition + Academy Ruins + Shackles = 9UU. Whether this is a good or bad thing is something that I think needs to be determined.


You're forgetting that using Genesis' ability is going to likely eat a turn.

And Volrath's Stronghold doesn't? They both cost 3 mana.


Three mana and then the mana required to play the creature is VASTLY different from using Stronghold AT THE END OF YOUR OPPONENT'S TURN in order to set it up for your turn.

I only see this being valid for casting Intuition or Counterspell (maybe Brainstorm too). We don't run Counterspell and we don't really need to cast additional Intuitions if we already have Genesis in the yard. Maybe this is important for Counterbalance, if you're curving so tight that you don't leave 1 mana open. Then again, we also don't run Counterbalance so it's not an issue for us.


Secondly, that does NOT count as "eating a draw", it's like you drew a card that was EXACTLY WHAT YOU WANTED. There's no lost card advantage.


I completely agree here.


Life from the Loam is already part of an important support structure to the deck. That argument is flawed because I rarely search up Stronghold (or Ruins). Life from the Loam is a generally useful card that I occasionally search up in order to get some more lands in play.



I completely agree here as well.


Also, I said that I had no problems playing against Landstill. In fact, that's one of the matchups that I want to see the most. I LOVE playing against Landstill with It's the Fear. I'm not afraid of them in the slightest.


I'm also pretty content with my Landstill matchup. The only thing I'm worried about vs them is SB Extirpates, which effects you all the same, if not more since you run less win conditions. You do run Counterbalance though, so it's probably around the same as far as how much of a threat it is.


I will admit to being slightly worried about Dragon Stompy, but that's because Chalice of the Void, Trinisphere, Moon effects and fast beaters should be a worry for most decks. Fortunately, that deck doesn't always do what it's trying to do and thus doesn't dominate the format. Dragon Stompy has it's own problems keeping it out of popularity so why not let the Dragon Stompy players worry about that. The point is, you're inflating this supposed "weak manabase" argument out of proportion.


I think Dragon Stompy is a very strong deck that has only been escalating in popularity and will continue to grow in popularity as more and more decks continue to be built with the idea in mind that "it's only 1 bad matchup." I've seen this mindset all over The Source. My deck actually has a very solid Dragon Stompy matchup because of the additions of Daze and Thoughtseize, as well as 4 basic lands, as I mentioned earlier.


Wonder and Cephalid Coliseum are not useful. Why do I care if my creatures fly?

Both are extremely useful.

In your deck, you run enough creature removal that an evasive creature is probably not necessary, so I can see it being less useful in your list. But it's strong in our lists, especially with Tog as a finisher.

Cephalid Coliseum isn't necessary in your deck as a discard outlet for Genesis/Wonder, so again, it's less useful in your list when compared to ours. However, it generates very nice card advantage in the situations where its appropriate to use it... and it fills the graveyard nicely for Goyf/Tog/Tombstalker too (which I realize you only run Goyf). I'd be inclined to say it's a very bad card in your list though, specifically because of how much slower and more mana intensive your list is, and thus you don't want to be skipping land drops, ever.


@ Hanni and Goaswerfraiejen: There is a glaring lack of Counterbalance in both of your lists. This fundemental difference drasticly alters the way that the decks play, pretty much mitigating just about every comparision that you can make.



Raharu is right. What the hell are you guys talking about?

So you are saying that Thresh lists with CounterTop and without CounterTop shouldn't be discussed in comparison because they have a "drasticly different" gameplan? I've yet to see the Threshold lists in the DtB forum get split into "Tempo Thresh" and "CounterTop Thresh" threads. Until then, how is this any different?

[Citrus-God]

They are both control decks... my deck is aggro/control early and board control mid-late. I just don't utilize as much control as David's list because I'm hybridized.

And David's deck isnt hybridized? I'm sure he can open up playing Aggro if he needs to.


My list doesn't use Lftl as a draw engine nearly as much as it uses Genesis as a draw engine... and yes, Genesis IS a draw engine. That's why I prefer it over Stronghold. My deck has recurrable removal too with Genesis + Shriekmaw... the only difference is that our removal doesn't hit artifacts/enchantments/black creatures but is more cost effecient.

Dave doesnt use LftL as his draw engine; he uses Intuition and his recursion lands as his "draw engine."

As for his removal, he plays it much differently than how you play yours. He wants to wipe the board clean or at least leverage it in his favor followed up by a CB/Top for a soft-lock. You just want your threats in play and slowly leverage it using cards like Shriekmaw.



And Volrath's Stronghold doesn't? They both cost 3 mana.


It takes less effort to get Stronghold set up and Stronghold can be activated EOT.

[Hanni]

And David's deck isnt hybridized? I'm sure he can open up playing Aggro if he needs to.

He's still hybridized, but in a similar fashion to Landstill. 4 Goyfs as the only aggro with 4 Brainstorm as the only cantrip makes him opening up playing aggro very infrequent.


Dave doesnt use LftL as his draw engine; he uses Intuition and his recursion lands as his "draw engine."


Loam is a draw engine, so if it's in the deck, he's using it. 1G for 3 cards, albeit lands (of course at the expense of the draw step), is +2 CA. It's only something he's gonna need to do when he has no more lands in hand, but it's still CA when he casts it. Therefore, it is considered a draw engine.

I also use Intuition and recursion as my draw engine. I'm not understanding what you are you trying to get at here.

On a sidenote, I don't use Loam + Coliseum every turn... on the contrary, I only use it once to get Genesis/Wonder in the yard and I don't utilize it again until I have enough landrops to use Genesis, cast the creature, cast Loam, and use Coliseum, which is very very deep into the lategame at that point.


As for his removal, he plays it much differently than how you play yours. He wants to wipe the board clean or at least leverage it in his favor followed up by a CB/Top for a soft-lock. You just want your threats in play and slowly leverage it using cards like Shriekmaw.


I want to wipe the board clean too sometimes, that's why I run Deed. Instead of dropping a CounterTop lock, I drop a Tog and swing. Otherwise, me cleaning the board and dropping Goyf is the same as him cleaning the board and dropping Goyf. I leverage Shriekmaw, but how is it leveraged slowly, or at least any slower than how he leverages EE? Similarly, Genesis + hardcast Shriekmaw is a pretty nice play once I have the mana available, which is just another way I can generate card advantage. So 6GB gives me +2 CA, while Ruins + EE@2, hitting only 1 target (if he's constantly hitting the board, odds are its a 1 for 1), = 6U for 0 CA. Yea, yea, I get it, he doesn't need card advantage because he has CounterTop, Shackles, and more sweepers.


It takes less effort to get Stronghold set up and Stronghold can be activated EOT.

How so? He needs to cast Intuition, dredge Loam, cast Loam, and play Stronghold. I need to cast Intuition, dredge Loam, cast Loam, and play Cephalid Coliseum (to discard Genesis).

Yea, I need to tap U and sac the Coliseum... but I'm also drawing 3 and discarding 3, and in this process, replacing excess lands with actual cards and filling the graveyard up (in his current list this doesn't matter as much but in my current list it does).

I still don't understand how that is really any more effort. After that, I can pay the same 3 mana to recur but I get actual card advantage. Yea, he runs more sweepers, has Counterbalance, and has Shackles to negate the card advantage difference.

The real difference we have between these 2 cards is that Genesis generates card advantage while Stronghold can activate at instant speed.

[Citrus-God]

Loam is a draw engine, so if it's in the deck, he's using it. 1G for 3 cards, albeit lands (of course at the expense of the draw step), is +2 CA. It's only something he's gonna need to do when he has no more lands in hand, but it's still CA when he casts it. Therefore, it is considered a draw engine.

That's like saying Crucible of Worlds is an draw engine in Landstill. Sadly, CoW isnt a draw engine, it is a form of card advantage engine, but draw isnt one of them. Drawing involves the act of finding cards; Crucible of Worlds just recurs Wasteland, Manland, or a Fetchland, and none of those cards are board sweepers.

Life from the Loam in this deck is to be searched up by Intuition when you need extra lands. Gearhart also said that he barely even Intuitions for Academy Ruins or Volrath's Stronghold. Life from the Loam is being used in this deck as a mana source or a way to protect those pieces. Besides, I doubt he usually tutors for recursion unless he alright has everything he needs. Also, if LftL in It's the Fear were to be a draw engine, he'd run Coliseum or Lonely Sandbar.


I also use Intuition and recursion as my draw engine. I'm not understanding what you are you trying to get at here.

He uses recursion as a card quality engine, but not as a draw engine. Intuition is being used as card quality enabler.


On a sidenote, I don't use Loam + Coliseum every turn... on the contrary, I only use it once to get Genesis/Wonder in the yard and I don't utilize it again until I have enough landrops to use Genesis, cast the creature, cast Loam, and use Coliseum, which is very very deep into the lategame at that point.

He doesnt try to Intuition for LftL + Recursion Land. It's usually done in different sequences with different Intuition piles each or he draws into it.


I want to wipe the board clean too sometimes, that's why I run Deed. Instead of dropping a CounterTop lock, I drop a Tog and swing.[quote]

What if the Tog gets Swords'd the next turn? What if the opponent was slowrolling threats and drops a higher quality than you the next turn? Better yet, what if he did that and dropped Counterbalance and Top to protect that threat?

[QUOTE]Yea, yea, I get it, he doesn't need card advantage because he has CounterTop, Shackles, and more sweepers.

Exactly. He sweeps the board clean, all he needs to drop is a Shackles. Now if the opponent is somehow able to recover, he can just Witness back a board sweeper and detonate the whole board.


How so? He needs to cast Intuition, dredge Loam, cast Loam, and play Stronghold. I need to cast Intuition, dredge Loam, cast Loam, and play Cephalid Coliseum (to discard Genesis).


You need in include Genesis in the pile then to execute this. He can just go for either Loam or Stronghold or both. If he has a pile with Stronghold, he wouldnt LftL. He had a pile with LftL, he wouldnt need Stronghold. You however, must include Genesis once you grab Coliseum and Loam.


I still don't understand how that is really any more effort. After that, I can pay the same 3 mana to recur but I get actual card advantage. Yea, he runs more sweepers, has Counterbalance, and has Shackles to negate the card advantage difference.

You lose a land drop. This is a huge difference.


The real difference we have between these 2 cards is that Genesis generates card advantage while Stronghold can activate at instant speed.

And why is Stronghold more suited for It's the Fear? Well, because this is a deck that cherishes the idea of being last to act. Being able to do things eot is a huge difference in this deck. Your opponent ends his turn, you know what his threats are, you use Intuition/Stronghold/Ruins to answer those threats.

[mackaber]

Just got back from a small local tourney (14 players). I played 3-1 and finished 3rd. This was the list I played

8 fetches
3 trops
3 Underground sea
1 breeding pool
2 island
1 swamp
1 wasteland
1 academy ruins
1 stronghold
1 lonely sandbar

4 Goyf
1 Witness
1 Tog
1 Shriekmaw

4 Counterbalance
3 Counter
4 Force

2 Smother
1 Chainers edict
2 EE
1 Shakels
3 Deed

3 Intuition
4 Brainstorm
3 Divining Top
1 Loam

SB:
3 Hydroblast
2 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Krosan Grip
3 Extirpate
1 Tormods Crypt
3 Spell Snare

I played against:
Fetchland Tendrils (1-2) Game one I get balance top which he can't beat. Games 2 and 3 I get shitty draws and succumb to Dark Confidants. Weird Games. Especially after boarding the matchup doesnt feel overly favorable since they bring grips and bobs, I really would have liked to have some hand disruption in the board.
Dragon Stompy (2-0): He couldn't find seething songs before the tournament and doesn't play too well. Blasts out of the board were awesome.
Mono Black Aggro (with the Conamination Bitterblossom Combo) I win 2-0. I was pretty sure the only way he could win barring a turn one hippy or something silly would be bitterblossom Contamination. None of that ever happend and i smashed him easily.
MUC (2-0): All he can ever do to win is resolve B2B. He doesn't draw one game 1 while the engine runs. Game 2 I come equipped with grips and play it careful and win fairly easily.

The dec was lot's of fun to play and is inherently powerful. I was also rather happy with my sideboard altough I'm not sure extirpate was the right call. Spell snares were good at negating the decs greatest weakness it's slowness especially when on the draw game 2, they might even belong in the main since the dec is such a slowpoke. At the moment I'm trying to figure out if and how the combo matchup can be improved, also lowering the mana curve a bit seems nesecesary.

[landstill101]

I have loved the deck, in every way possible. I'm happy that it has won a couple of big tournies soo that it is on here and can be tweaked, First off this deck needs white, no I'll rephase that, this deck needs STP, this deck just like every other deck in the format(other than combo) will lose to an unanswered first turn lackey(ok about 90% of the time because I have seen a goblin player drop a fanatic with lackey), force of will is not an answer to lackey or mono blue decks would be in top 8 every tourny, the Deck needs a very easy cheap answer to anything, All of the lists that have been listed without white, can't handle tombstalker, can't handle enforcer, heck can't handle a shusher in time or cheap enough to still stop a combo player. This deck needs Stp to fix that small problem and without it, you will lose to fast aggro more times that you will be able to count. Also the arguement of a shaky manabase is kinda outdated, really its worth it to add the white(pls read above) and if you take out white, you add another sea(which doesn't change the hurt from wasteland) and maybe 1 more basic, 1 more basic still isn't gonna help you win against a wasteland lock or stompy, its just better to have the stp and play magic with skill.

The talk about genesis made me laugh when I first started to read it mainly because hanni's list is incorrect. For general purposes, I'm going to take out the parts that are same for both.and now I will add the rest

Genesis:

Pros:

-Can be hardcast (in-colour fatty)
-Immune to Pithing Needle

Cons:

- You can only use during upkeep.
- It forces you build the deck to have discard outlits to put it in there which forces bad cards in the deck, and leaves many powerful cards out of your list.
- It can not be brought back with life from the loam.
- Doesn't produce mana at all, and is really only good if you have another card to put it in the graveyard.
- Its a dead card in your hand for the first 5 turns.



Volrath's Stronghold:

Pros:

-Produces mana
-Not as vulnerable to temporary graveyard hate
- Has synergy with counterbalance.(awsome trick that surprises anyone who thinks they got around counterbalance)
- Can be used any time it wants.
Cons:

-Vulnerable to mana-hate (Blood Moon effects, Wasteland, Back to Basics, etc.)
-Produces colourless mana in 4c deck
-Vulnerable to Pithing Needle


When it comes down to it, if your running loam anywaze stronghold is alot stronger card.

This is all I'm going to talk about right now, maybe i'll talk about some other things, but I feel that many of the points are very good and can really help tweek the deck out.

[spirit of the wretch]

I won the small (13 players) Karlsruhe tourney with the deck going 3/0/1. I played the list I posted on the first page of this thread (-1x Coliseum, +1x Sandbar). I faced:
Geddon Stax (2:1): I didn't mulligan properly and consequently lost the second game despite his mulligan down to four... I suck! The other games I could easily control the game via Loam and beat him down (game one with a Confi)
TempoTresh (2:0): Intuition wins!
Gobbos (2:1): Without Swords the MU is not really good preboard. It gets much better with Plagues and Blasts though =)
The Rock (ID): Teammate

You guys should really consider running Confidant. His ability to block and kill annoying Goblins and to give the deck a better aggro alternative should not be overlooked!
So far: This deck is great and I absolutly love it =)

[Adan]

I won the small (13 players) Karlsruhe tourney with the deck going 3/0/1. I played the list I posted on the first page of this thread (-1x Coliseum, +1x Sandbar). I faced:
Geddon Stax (2:1): I didn't mulligan properly and consequently lost the second game despite his mulligan down to four... I suck! The other games I could easily control the game via Loam and beat him down (game one with a Confi)
TempoTresh (2:0): Intuition wins!
Gobbos (2:1): Without Swords the MU is not really good preboard. It gets much better with Plagues and Blasts though =)
The Rock (ID): Teammate

You guys should really consider running Confidant. His ability to block and kill annoying Goblins and to give the deck a better aggro alternative should not be overlooked!
So far: This deck is great and I absolutly love it =)

Then you might as well run my UGb Threshold build...

But running dark confidant doesn't make sense to me because the average manacurve is higher than in threshold for example. Even though you have SDt, Confidant may Lightning Bolt' you too often. Accumulated Knowledge would make sense. It's synergy with Intuition is trivial.

But The Fear looks quite interesting, I think I will test it myself if i can get my hands on some Pernicious Deeds and Intuitions.

[mackaber]

You guys should really consider running Confidant. His ability to block and kill annoying Goblins and to give the deck a better aggro alternative should not be overlooked!


I played a list that was very close to yours essentially running counterspells over DCs. While I love DC I'm really not sure he's needed in this dec. Without top he will be dealing close to 2 damage per turn and also I didn't really ever feel the need for carddraw since Intuition for Loam with sandbar was always sufficient. Also Counterspell fills an important hole in the dec, essentially making the Couterbalance soft lock a hard lock.

On a slightly more random note... Has anyone ever considered including Mox Diamonds? I know it requires you to run about 26 mana sources but it would speed the dec up and also make bloodmoon, B2B and all those shenanigans irrelevant plus you can easily support 4 colors. I was thinking of running them in a dec with 4 intuitions 4 bobs and 4 CB so as to best abuse the speed boost.

[spirit of the wretch]

Moxen do sound nice (especially if you play Smother over StoP), but I think the major problem are the slots in this deck. What four cards would you want to cut for them?

[Hanni]

The talk about genesis made me laugh when I first started to read it mainly because hanni's list is incorrect. For general purposes, I'm going to take out the parts that are same for both.and now I will add the rest



Genesis:

Pros:

-Can be hardcast (in-colour fatty)
-Immune to Pithing Needle
Cons:

- You can only use during upkeep.
- It forces you build the deck to have discard outlits to put it in there which forces bad cards in the deck, and leaves many powerful cards out of your list.
- It can not be brought back with life from the loam.
- Doesn't produce mana at all, and is really only good if you have another card to put it in the graveyard.
- Its a dead card in your hand for the first 5 turns.



Volrath's Stronghold:

Pros:

-Produces mana
-Not as vulnerable to temporary graveyard hate
- Has synergy with counterbalance.(awsome trick that surprises anyone who thinks they got around counterbalance)
- Can be used any time it wants.
Cons:

-Vulnerable to mana-hate (Blood Moon effects, Wasteland, Back to Basics, etc.)
-Produces colourless mana in 4c deck
-Vulnerable to Pithing Needle



Thats fine and all... but why didn't you mention card advantage? That is the sole reason I run the card. I also don't get how not being able to recur it with Loam matters... also, how does it force me to run a bad card? I love Cephalid Coliseum. However, I've already explained that Volrath's Stronghold has advantages in the slower control version (Dave's), and that it's terrible in my version. Also, how is my list incorrect? Having a slightly different gameplan doesn't make it incorrect, it makes it different. Play the list before you run your mouth.

[mackaber]

Moxen do sound nice (especially if you play Smother over StoP), but I think the major problem are the slots in this deck. What four cards would you want to cut for them?

Seeing that they synergize poorly with deed and deed synergizes poorly with the dec: uhmm deed. Obviously you'd be playing a completly different dec then.

[BreathWeapon]

I don't believe Genesis or Volrath's Stronghold is a question of either/or, but one of the main advantages of Volrath's Stronghold is that recurring a Tarmogoyf, Psychatog or Shriekmaw puts a 2, 3 or 5cc card on top of your deck for Counterbalance.

[raharu]

So you are saying that Thresh lists with CounterTop and without CounterTop shouldn't be discussed in comparison because they have a "drasticly different" gameplan?

Actually, yes. Yes I am. Also, if you would actually look at ITF and your list, you'd see other large differences in the decks and they way the play and the engines that run (or, in the case of ITF, suplement) them. Seriously, dissimilar decklists are dissimilar, the end.

[Adan]

Since the last 2 suggestions were "Moxen" and "Dark Confidant", together with the old list "Goyf" "StoP" and "CBalance-Engine", I would nearly suggest to forget the Fear and play Germany's good ol' Baseruption:

Dennis "Oddball" Kampelmann's Top8-appearance:

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=10225

and mine:

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=10505

Since you are already including Chrome Moxen, people will continue to include multicolored spells like Finkel and Vindicates anyways.

Ponder was non-existent at that time, replace Portent with Ponder.

[Citrus-God]

Actually, yes. Yes I am. Also, if you would actually look at ITF and your list, you'd see other large differences in the decks and they way the play and the engines that run (or, in the case of ITF, suplement) them. Seriously, dissimilar decklists are dissimilar, the end.

He summed it up about right.

@Hanni: There's a difference between The Rock and Truffle Shuffle. The Rock has more aggro elements designed within the deck and uses early game discard to slow the opposing deck down. Truffle Shuffle uses discard for the early game as well, but because of the way it is designed, against creature decks, it doesnt need it's discard and not very reliant on it. Your deck is like The Rock except you swap discard (Therapies anyway) for free counters where ITF just uses Force of Wills and Counterspells because it's that reliant on using it's counters (depending on MU).

Also, Genesis has major a susceptibility to Tormod's Crypt... With Stronghold, you could just activate in response.

[bigbear102]

He summed it up about right.
Also, Genesis has major a susceptibility to Tormod's Crypt... With Stronghold, you could just activate in response.

If you have Stronghold out, wouldn't a good player wait to activate Crypt until you are tapped out or have already activated Stronghold? Stronghold also dies to Wasteland and nonbasic hate, which Genesis gets around, assuming you have a green source available.

[BreathWeapon]

If you have Stronghold out, wouldn't a good player wait to activate Crypt until you are tapped out or have already activated Stronghold? Stronghold also dies to Wasteland and nonbasic hate, which Genesis gets around, assuming you have a green source available.

I'll give you Blood Moon and Back to Basics, but Wasteland on Volrath's Stronghold in a Intuition/Life from the Loam control deck is the misplay of the century.

[Yawgmoth]

One card you might want to consider for the deck is Gigapede. He's a lot stronger in the deck then you might think. Very sexy target and not a bad topdeck. The only dis-synergy is keep open mana for counterTop & CS because Gigapede is mana intensive. Though I have greatly enjoyed playing him in my Intuition based control decks.

Btw I really don't understand anyone that's been advocating Genesis w/o Gigapede. I know the majority of players here are not running Genesis (myself included) but you have no way to to get it into the graveyard with an Intuition. That means you have to cast it, not have it swords, and then have it block something before it can be used. I would suggest skipping some of those steps.

[Citrus-God]

If you have Stronghold out, wouldn't a good player wait to activate Crypt until you are tapped out or have already activated Stronghold? Stronghold also dies to Wasteland and nonbasic hate, which Genesis gets around, assuming you have a green source available.

Well, you also run EE + Deed in this deck. You can just activate some shuffle effects here and there and find those cards; this should force the player with Crypt to activate in response in which you activate Stronghold in response getting that dead Goyf back on top well protected from Crypt.

[landstill101]

If you have Stronghold out, wouldn't a good player wait to activate Crypt until you are tapped out or have already activated Stronghold? Stronghold also dies to Wasteland and nonbasic hate, which Genesis gets around, assuming you have a green source available.

When you talk about this situation, if you want to compare it to Genesis, then pls say what would happen to Genesis, like this...

Stronghold in play,
Tap stronghold to put goyf on top of deck,
In response use Crypt to remove graveyard,
ability fizzles.

Genesis in graveyard,
Crypt used at any time,
no genesis,

Great they removed 1 tarmogoyf from the game, you play another, and then you can recur that one, or a tog, but if you use the Genesis, oh dam there is no recursion. If they use wasteland then crypt, you just made card advantage, because you still have your colored mana and they just used 2 cards to stop 1.


Hanni, being able to recur with loam is the whole point, a wasteland doesn't stop stronghold, a crypt will instantly stop genesis, and you can't even respond by putting something on top, they would have complete control. This deck is not a tog deck, its not a threshold deck, its not made to force yourself to throw things in the graveyard, it just works out that is your graveyard is full you have more options, by putting in genesis your taking the deck and forcing to make you discard your own cards, at a risk that is not worth it in this deck, as I said before you have to put cards that don't fit in the deck to make 1 card work when that card can be substituted for a land which has better pros to it. Great you have card advantage, but how much card advantage will you lose to put in the graveyard, how much damage do you have to take before you get card advantage? Your theory for this deck is like telling a combo player that they should use a combo that has more pieces to it but you might have card advantage. This deck doesn't need to have a full hand to win, that is why the deck has countertop lock, and shackles, because it can win with the quality of permanents not the quantity. Hanni, I know we are not sopposed to bash people, but when almost everyone is telling you that your are talking about a different style of deck, it could mean we are right. This thread is for ITF, pls either talk about this deck or take your rogue deck to a huge tourny and win with like this person did and then we can make a thread for your deck.


Now back to the Normal talk, I think Adan's right, adding those would just repeat what someone did. Moxen is a hard choice because as someone already pointed out, we would need to raise the land count, usually this is fine to play moxen in a very fast deck, but this is a control deck, it is not needed. It also has very bad synergy with deed since if a deed is played your moxen's always die, now if you take out deed then you could choose moxen but then you would also be taking out the best mass sweeper in the game for 1 turn faster.

Truly I didn't have to say any of this because most of it has been said one way or another, I just think that a couple of people are taking their blue control rogue decks and try to make it sound like this deck. Being a Landstill/theshold player this deck is alot of fun, I've had friends try it out and each side makes little mistakes because they have played threshold but not landstill or the other way around,soo I think that this deck does very well on using the thinking of both decks. This deck has alot of potential but this deck isn't like goblins, you can't just play and tap to win games, its very hard to pilot. Many pf the suggestions I feel are just people who have played alot of threshold but are making mistakes that landstill players aren't and vicaversa. Who ever is the creator, I wish I knew you personally, this deck is my style of magic.



On to talk about a new topic, what do people think of sideboard for this deck, right now Until I play this more in tournies, I am playing with this list for side:

Sideboard:
3 extirpate
3 meddling mage
3 krosan grip
3 engineered plague
3 thoughtseize

[raharu]

I know it's not exactly phenomanal, but I've always liked the whole recuring Krosan Tuskers bit. Perhaps it would be stronger with Genesis, which doesn't go here in the slightest, but would Krosan Tusker be unwieldly or could it help fix mana early game and be a dumb source of late game consistancy while being a threat when needed, like it was in Truffle Shuffle and Wg Quinn?

[Spare Parts]

raharu: there is no more than 1 basic land in the whole deck, I'm afraid Tusker wouldn't do that much. Even in 3c builds there is no time for such cute tricks. I love Tusker, but this is a no-no deck for him.


I would like to ask for some sideboard ideas. I'm putting together SB for tournament this very weekend, and 4 colors of possibilities are giving me a headache. So far I have settled on:

3x Krosan Grip - to fight opposing CB & moat & whatsoever
4x Hydroblast - against goblins, burn, but mostly against Dragon Stompy which is a troubling matchup at best
3x Leyline of the Void - i live in a fear of Ichorid (hate losing to decks that "dont play magic"), but wouldn't Extirpate be better? Or Tormods Crypt? - I want those cards to have broader usage than just against one specific deck.

and 5 free places (possibly 8 without those 3 Leylines)

Any ideas / suggestions please? :]

[landstill101]

After talking to a couple of good friends and play testing some more, I changed my sideboard that I posted 3 posts ago from:

Sideboard:
3 extirpate
3 meddling mage
3 krosan grip
3 engineered plague
3 thoughtseize

To:
Sideboard:
3 Leyline of the void
4 Hydroblast
2 engineered explosives
3 krosan grip
3 thoughtsieze

Sadly When I tested this, My worst matchup is against TES, which is sad since I'm playing blue.

[Lego]

To:
Sideboard:
3 Leyline of the void
4 Hydroblast
2 engineered explosives
3 krosan grip
3 thoughtsieze

Sadly When I tested this, My worst matchup is against TES, which is sad since I'm playing blue.

First of all, I feel like Leyline is a 4 or 0 card. Second, how is your MAINDECK not beating TES? Are you not playing the same maindeck as everyone else? Bring in Hydroblast and Thoughtseize from the board, and I can't imagine you losing.

[raharu]

Ohes. Duh. I knew that. I love Piggy so much though :\

Back on topic, Extirpates are just stupidly strong across the entire spectrum. I can't think of any arguments against it, outside of the fact that it isn't great against Stax, but I don't think you really want graveyard hate that much against them (meaning that you would want Extirpate over Krosan Grip in that match :tongue:). As for the other slots, I presume they would all be metagame depepdant. Needles are either crap or amazing, but it depends on what you expect to see.

Do you really need Hydroblast? Wouldn't CB be enough against burn and recuring Tarmogoyf be a suitable solution for Goblins? Burn shouldn't be a problem, but I'm not entirely sure about the Goblins mu, and Dragon Stompy is only going to be helped by a stronger manabase and a healthy portion of disenchant effects.

[diffy]

Do you really need Hydroblast?

Hellyeah! - Goblins is like one of your worst matchups because they are simply too fast: Tarmogoyf is only a small speed bump for them (Matron -> Warren Weirding or simply ignore -> charge), Counterbalance does hardly affect them especially since they can just out-tempo you even if you have a Top down and all your engines are way too clunky to handle their assault and their card advantage + tutoring power... and I didn't even start talking about what happens when they attack your horrible manabase.
Blue Blasts are played over Engineered Plague because they're better in the Goblins matchup if you have a clock (here Tarmogoyf + Tog) because you can use them as tempo tools whereas Engineered Plague is rather clunky and doesn't affect them as much. Blasts being good in other matchups (TES, Burn, Dragon Stompy, Aggro Loam etc.) is just an additional bonus.

[Bryant Cook]

How is your MAINDECK not beating TES? Are you not playing the same maindeck as everyone else? Bring in Hydroblast and Thoughtseize from the board, and I can't imagine you losing.

I beat Landstill in my metagame playing tons of hate all the time. I don't mean to de-rail the thread, however, assuming you beat combo because you play Force of Will is ridiculous.

[mackaber]

I beat Landstill in my metagame playing tons of hate all the time. I don't mean to de-rail the thread, however, assuming you beat combo because you play Force of Will is ridiculous.

Quoted for truth. There seems to be the conviction among some o da peeps on this thread that loosng to storm with this dec has something to do with lacking playskill. I for my part am convinced it only has to do with lacking Counterbalnce/Top skill in the first 10 or so cards.

[Spare Parts]

Well, I am not afraid of combo (my metagame prediction), but today I got stomped 5-1 by friend's RGb Goyf Stompy with maindecked Price of Progress and few Fireblasts. Counterbalance is too slow, Pernicious Deed .. well ... almost too. PoP deals me 6 at least each time, Fireblast can't be stopped by CB. Goyf, Confidant and Lavamancer are very dangerous even alone, and I am running out of removal if trying to kill each of them. And the deck can come out of gates so quick that I can't even remotely match its speed.
Honestly I was surprised, I didn't expect this matchup to be so bad. Maybe I was just unlucky... and to mention he sideboards 4x Blood Moon - geez.

So, because I expect field full of aggressive decks I switched maindeck Counterspells for Spell Snares. I was trying out a single Kitchen Finks but it was terribly underperforming. I have no way to sacrifice it, so in the late game he is just a sitting duck that gains poor 2 life. And to Intuition tutor him, it costs 3(Intuition)+2(LftL)+3(Volrath's Stronghold)+3(Kitchen Finks itself)+draw. 11 mana and a draw is probably too steep price to gain 2 life :D There will be Shriekmaw in his place, it's better.

Sideboard so far looks like:

quite sure:
4x Hydroblast
3x Engineered Plague
3x Krosan Grip
still in testing phase:
2x Threads of Disloyalty
3x Leyline of the Void (sorry lego army man, no more room)

in contention:
Extirpate
Thoughtseize
Stifle



So to sum up my SBing plan:
Ichorid +3 Leyline +3EPlague. -4 CB -2 almost anything(spell snare?)
Goblins +4 Hydroblast + 3EPlague -4 CB -3 Spell Snare
RG beats variants (not loam) +4 Hydroblast +2 Threads -3 Intuition (no time for cute tricks) -2 EE -1 Witness (well, I dont like removing EE for Threads. Feels like wasted SB space. Still Threads are there mostly because of this matchup. Anyone has better idea?)
Dragon Stompy +4 Hydroblast +3 Krosan Grip -4 CB -3 Spell Snare ... and pray :D
Treshol_d +3 Grip +2 Threads -2 Vedalken Shackles -3 ??? (I can't find card to remove -_- - StP seems to be a most likely candidate, as I am replacing it with Threads and I already have enough removal for Tresholds 12 creatures)
Landstill +3 Krosan Grip -1 Shriekmaw -2 Vedalken Shackles

How good are Vedalken Shackles? They seemed too slow in almost every game I played. I know that they are great against Goblins, but shouldnt 7 SB cards be enough? I will certainly have to think about it, there are still 2 days left :)

[spirit of the wretch]

Hellyeah! - Goblins is like one of your worst matchups because they are simply too fast: Tarmogoyf is only a small speed bump for them (Matron -> Warren Weirding or simply ignore -> charge), Counterbalance does hardly affect them especially since they can just out-tempo you even if you have a Top down and all your engines are way too clunky to handle their assault and their card advantage + tutoring power... and I didn't even start talking about what happens when they attack your horrible manabase.

Quoted for absolute truth! If you don't run Swords your MU preboard is terrible! And that is if you DON'T lose the die roll



Blue Blasts are played over Engineered Plague because they're better in the Goblins matchup if you have a clock (here Tarmogoyf + Tog) because you can use them as tempo tools whereas Engineered Plague is rather clunky and doesn't affect them as much. Blasts being good in other matchups (TES, Burn, Dragon Stompy, Aggro Loam etc.) is just an additional bonus.

I play both of them:

3 Grip
4 BEB
4 Plague
4 Extirpate

Plagues are really flexible and additionally give you a better Combo MU postboard (be it Storm Combo, Ichorid or Cephalide Breakfast).

[landstill101]

First of all, I feel like Leyline is a 4 or 0 card. Second, how is your MAINDECK not beating TES? Are you not playing the same maindeck as everyone else? Bring in Hydroblast and Thoughtseize from the board, and I can't imagine you losing.

Well I did have a ton to type out to show that you obviously havn't played a blue deck against a good combo player yet but....... Bryant Cook beat me to it. He said it quick and short and 100% true. And to add more to it playing blue and black, you can actually slow down ichorid, soo you don't have to have 4 for it all the time, learn to play ichorid and learn how to slow it down and if you don't have it in opening hand just learn to stall till you get it or just counter the dread return and drop a deed, its actually not that hard.


Spare parts, I also have problems with a boros deck like yours but It was because of the fact that both games I got a balance out and didn't get a top and got really unlucky, For you to win this matchup, you have to win with countertop, theres also some cool tricks to pull off if you need it like putting a goyf on top with stronghold to counter a helix, swords your own goyf to gain life, being at 4 life, stealing their confidant then swordsing it to gain life, There are many tricks to get around the burn, but you win this matchup with countertop plain and simple.( oh and don't take out shackles, its way to good if played right.)


Since people seem to be dredding this matchup soooooo much, I think we should talk about the stax/dragon stompy matchup, What in those decks are sooo horrible that you can't stop??? the only thing in stax is well smokestacks because it costs 4 and you can't counterbalance that, this deck has a high amount of 3 mana costers, which makes you life very easy against those, granite its nice to have a force for those first turn trinispheres but if you can get countertop out you should win the game. It worked for me really well on wednesday.

[thefreakaccident]

And to add more to it playing blue and black, you can actually slow down ichorid, soo you don't have to have 4 for it all the time, learn to play ichorid and learn how to slow it down and if you don't have it in opening hand just learn to stall till you get it or just counter the dread return and drop a deed, its actually not that hard.


Yes you can slow them down, but deed doesn't do shit against ichorids, who are just going to give them more tokens... not to mention, a good ichorid player will get rid of your entire hand before trying to dread return (unless they go for broke), they'll at least hit all your countermagaic so they can kill you that turn... and don't you are say CB, if you are wasting time setting that up, you are going to loose to ichorid anyways.

[Nydaeli]

After talking to a couple of good friends and play testing some more, I changed my sideboard that I posted 3 posts ago from:

Sideboard:
3 extirpate
3 meddling mage
3 krosan grip
3 engineered plague
3 thoughtseize

To:
Sideboard:
3 Leyline of the void
4 Hydroblast
2 engineered explosives
3 krosan grip
3 thoughtsieze

Sadly When I tested this, My worst matchup is against TES, which is sad since I'm playing blue.

Isn't this a compelling reason not to cut Meddling Mage?

[landstill101]

Yes you can slow them down, but deed doesn't do shit against ichorids, who are just going to give them more tokens... not to mention, a good ichorid player will get rid of your entire hand before trying to dread return (unless they go for broke), they'll at least hit all your countermagaic so they can kill you that turn... and don't you are say CB, if you are wasting time setting that up, you are going to loose to ichorid anyways.

Well now I didn't say that I would try to get counterbalance out, that is worthless, I'm talking about countering first turn breakthrough, countering the dread return, swords the ichorids, that is the way to slow them, I didn't say it would win, just slow them. If you swords ichorid, they have to kill you with tokens which Die to deed everytime. Your Message is saying that I sit back and only counter returns, I meant to counter early stuff to stop the first/ second turn kill to hopefully drop a deed on turn 3.

Nydaeli, A good Tes player knows how to get around it and if they need to they run pyroclasm side for wish. Plus when you play mage, next turn they go off because you don't have mana to counter.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Quoted for absolute truth! If you don't run Swords your MU preboard is terrible! And that is if you DON'T lose the die roll







Pardon me, but this seems like exceptionally weak reasoning. If I've done the math correctly (and I may not have), it looks like you have a 34% chance of having an opening hand capable of casting StP (so... StP plus a Tundra or fetchland). Your chance of drawing StP, of course, is 40%--but without white mana, that's irrelevant. With only two white-producing lands, that means that your most important piece of removal, as you call it, is easily nullified with Wasteland or Port, depending on the Goblins build. This means that as the game goes on, your ability to cast StP with only two Tundras is going to get much worse. Perhaps those odds present a reasonable risk--you're better players than I, so you tell me. Personally, they aren't odds that I'm comfortable with when it's a card choice that has significant ramifications for the deck (in terms of the manabase and consistency, especially in the face of attrition).

I have no doubt that some sort of one-drop is necessary for the deck to do well vs. Goblins. Likewise, I have no doubt that removal is essential. That's not at issue. The point that I would like to raise--that I tried to raise earlier--is simply whether Swords to Plowshares is really the best use of that slot, given the other in-colour options (as one-drops, Vendetta, Ghastly Demise, and Pongify are the only real options that I can think of, and each has its own limitations. Deathmark too, I suppose, for what it's worth--which isn't much. Hell, if Lackey was your sole concern, REB would even work). Granted, each of those has strict limitations that Swords does not have. On the other hand, they put far less strain on the manabase, which means your odds of being able to cast them turn one (depending on the card... Ghastly Demise suffers from similar limitations turn one) go up. Alternately, perhaps some other form of turn one answer should be considered (Nimble Mongoose springs to mind as a possibility, sure, but there are others).

Essentially, I do not feel that the Goblins matchup presents an adequate reason on its own for the inclusion of StP over and above other forms of removal/answers, and I would like to know if other options have been considered in its stead and, if so, what the results were. It's entirely possible that StP's lack of inherent limitations makes it the best choice--what I want to know is if it really is the best.


As for Genesis, the most compelling argument I've seen you guys make against him is Stronghold's synergy with Counterbalance. That's not to be ignored, and I'd like to thank you for pointing it out.

[landstill101]

Pardon me, but this seems like exceptionally weak reasoning. If I've done the math correctly (and I may not have), it looks like you have a 34% chance of having an opening hand capable of casting StP (so... StP plus a Tundra or fetchland). Your chance of drawing StP, of course, is 40%--but without white mana, that's irrelevant. With only two white-producing lands, that means that your most important piece of removal, as you call it, is easily nullified with Wasteland or Port, depending on the Goblins build. This means that as the game goes on, your ability to cast StP with only two Tundras is going to get much worse. Perhaps those odds present a reasonable risk--you're better players than I, so you tell me. Personally, they aren't odds that I'm comfortable with when it's a card choice that has significant ramifications for the deck (in terms of the manabase and consistency, especially in the face of attrition).

I have no doubt that some sort of one-drop is necessary for the deck to do well vs. Goblins. Likewise, I have no doubt that removal is essential. That's not at issue. The point that I would like to raise--that I tried to raise earlier--is simply whether Swords to Plowshares is really the best use of that slot, given the other in-colour options (as one-drops, Vendetta, Ghastly Demise, and Pongify are the only real options that I can think of, and each has its own limitations. Deathmark too, I suppose, for what it's worth--which isn't much. Hell, if Lackey was your sole concern, REB would even work). Granted, each of those has strict limitations that Swords does not have. On the other hand, they put far less strain on the manabase, which means your odds of being able to cast them turn one (depending on the card... Ghastly Demise suffers from similar limitations turn one) go up. Alternately, perhaps some other form of turn one answer should be considered (Nimble Mongoose springs to mind as a possibility, sure, but there are others).

Essentially, I do not feel that the Goblins matchup presents an adequate reason on its own for the inclusion of StP over and above other forms of removal/answers, and I would like to know if other options have been considered in its stead and, if so, what the results were. It's entirely possible that StP's lack of inherent limitations makes it the best choice--what I want to know is if it really is the best.


As for Genesis, the most compelling argument I've seen you guys make against him is Stronghold's synergy with Counterbalance. That's not to be ignored, and I'd like to thank you for pointing it out.




To start this off, I'm not gonna talk too much about the goblin matchup, mainly because the 4 tournies I have played this in, I have not played a single goblin player before, but as a experienced threshold and landstill player, a sturdy first turn answer to lackey is needed. If lackey lands and gets a good drop, a goblin player can kill you by turn 3 and average turn 4-5 which if they went first, you don't have time to drop a deed to blow and 1 tarmogoyf at this point is worthless with the new cards ran in goblins(the first strike goblin and the edict) having 1 tarmogoyf is not enough anymore, but I do know is that if you can get out shackles and have decent life you have the game pretty wrapped up, shackles combined with everything else is just as good as 2 plagues out.

Now after finishing a 25 man tourny and taking first, with the 4c list(with some tweaks of my own) I took down, white threshold, 2 different dark boros decks, a strange bounce land deck, belcher(twice), Rock, astral slide. After going 3-1-1 in tourny(losing to belcher and tieing rock) go into playoffs and win it all no prob. I really don't think this decks has to worry about the manabase, it doesn't matter if you have 3 different duals or 3 of the same, you can still use intuition to get the loam engine going to help smooth things out. All that matters is to get to 3 mana, it doesn't matter what 3, it just needs 3. And having a 4c build or 3c it doesn't make a difference.

Stp is an autoinclusion, not just because of the goblin matchup, but against ANY CREATURE IN THE FORMAT(cept goose of course), this is def. worth it just to add the best spot removal, also it helps with the explosives.


The one thing I have decided is that this deck does wonders with tog, tog is almost an auto inclusion too, its really amazing how much damage you can do with a tog, loam, and a top: it has won me many matches.

Also don't forget that the acadamy ruins does the 1cc for you, so that gives you 1-3cc for counterbalance.


Actually since I'm typing alot as it is, I would just like to explain a situation I used to counter a helix that should have killed me. I had countertop out, with like 4 mana, he plays helix to kill me, I top and see a land, deed, brainstorm. I draw the brainstorm and play it, for the first draw, I dredged life from the loam instead, dredged the top 3, drew 2 more then put back the loam on top to counter the helix which won me the game. The guy looked at me and just scooped.( he was at 8 life with me having a tog on table)


Well thats all for today, this deck is the best deck for my format right now and will be playing for a long time, hope to see everyone else do just as well.

[spirit of the wretch]

Essentially, I do not feel that the Goblins matchup presents an adequate reason on its own for the inclusion of StP over and above other forms of removal/answers, and I would like to know if other options have been considered in its stead and, if so, what the results were. It's entirely possible that StP's lack of inherent limitations makes it the best choice--what I want to know is if it really is the best.

I think you got me wrong here. I wasn't arguing pro StoP (I don't play white in my build and still think it's the better option in my metagame), I argued pro Plagues/BEB in the sideboard, as you probably need to win the two games postboard against Goblins.

[Spare Parts]

I took "It's the Fear" to the local tournament (22 players, part of the national PoY series) yesterday and split the finals with Welder Painter, I lost only two games against B/w Pikula Homebrew in which I got terribly manascrewed and mulliganed a lot. I won the rest of the matches 2-0, even against 43land.dec in the quarterfinals but I have to admit it was pretty hard to win against. Today I'm judging national qualifiers but well I may write a short tourney report and my deck analysis to show changes to the decklist I made etc.
This deck works pretty well, but it needs a good player to start with. And Landstill101, I made the same play with Brainstorm into dredging LftL into putting it on top into CB countering a spell yesterday, my opponent was looking pretty hopeless at that point :laugh:

[Mental]

Hey guys.

This thread is...well, not worth reading through. So I'll post my thoughts and if I say things that have already been mentioned, sorry.

Me and 2 friends tested this deck out on Friday night for a few hours. We played this build:

8 Fetch
4 Trop
3 Tundra
3 Sea
1 Island
1 Stronghold
1 Ruins

4 Goyf
1 Eternal Witness

4 Brainstorm
3 Top
4 CBalance
3 Counterspell
4 FoW
4 Intuition
3 Deed
2 EE
2 Shackles
1 Loam
4 Swords to Plowshares

Exactly Gearheart's list on the first page. We played about 10 games against Thrash, preboard.

Here's what I noticed.
What the hell is up with Counterbalance and this decks curve? You almost never blind hit off CB. Let's check the number of cards in this deck that suck with Balance.

2 Shackles
3 Deed
4 Intuition
1 Eternal Witness
2 EE
21 Lands

That's...half the deck. Yeah. Basically, Counterbalance sucks in this deck without top in play. That shouldn't be.
Deed is incredibly clunky in this deck. EE is usually better, and Deed can almost never come down fast enough to get the job done.
Shackles is really strong, like usual.
Also, what's up with LftL and no draw engine? This deck literally cannot develop card advantage, which is going to hurt you in a lot of MUs.
With those thoughts in mind, we cut from the original list:

3 Deed
1 Intuition
1 Shackles

and ended up with this list:

8 Fetch
4 Trop
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Stronghold
1 Ruins
1 Lonely Sandbar

4 Tarmogoyf
1 Eternal Witness
1 Loxodon Hierarch

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Top
4 Counterbalance
4 FoW
4 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Intuition
1 Shackles
2 EE
1 Loam

This list can much more consistently abuse Counterbalance and still has a very strong Intuition plan later in the game. Hierarch is a good target against aggro, since recurring it with Stronghold is downright nutty.
This list was very strong in testing, however, it often felt like a crappy version of Black Thresh.
I'm just not sure ITF is where it's at right now.
Comments?

[Spare Parts]

Mental, I'm not exactly sure that your reasoning is correct. I do agree that blind CB chances are not exactly bright, but I don't think that adding Ponder will affect them somehow drastically. Ponder is still only a sorcery speed cantrip, thus making your opponents able to outmaneuver CB effects.

Now to my tiny report, excuse my poor English.

My deck:
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Breeding Pool
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Academy Ruins
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Shriekmaw
1 Eternal Witness

Spells
2 Hoofprints of the Stag
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
3 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam
4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Sideboard:
2 Extirpate
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Krosan Grip
3 Engineered Plague
4 Hydroblast
2 Threads of Disloyalty

I cut the Counterspells as they were always turn too slow, added Spell Snares instead and replaced missing 2cc cards in the deck with Hoofprints of the Stag.
As to cutting Vedalken Shackles and not cutting any Pernicious Deeds, I know that Shackles tend to be far better in the late game. I AM the late game. If i get there. But first, I need to make it there, and that's where Pernicious Deed really shines. That's why I need to keep all Deeds in the deck, to make sure I get there.
Also, always think when dropping CB during the 2nd turn - what are the chances that I will have to use the Deed first, and CB staying blind and/or destroyed?

Short report from the tournament:
1st round: Bw Deadguy Ale
I kept 2 land hand and never drew any other, while getting slaughtered by flurry of Wastelands, Sinkholes etc. 2nd game I mulliganed to 5 in attempt to have more than 1 land in the opening hand, and I failed. Bad luck.

2nd round: Ug madness
Although it may look easy, it's a pretty hard matchup actually. Madness has 4cc and 5cc cards (Deep Analysis, Roar of the Wurm, Arrogant Wurm) and Wonder nullifies any attempts on blocking with a goyf.
In the first game I didnt allow any discard outlet to stick, even though I had to Intuition for 3x Spell Snare to do so. 2nd game was close, with him having Wonder and attacking for 5 with Rootwalla and Mishra through my CB+Top, which eventually got destroyed by double Krosan Grip. I drew Deed to stop the bleeding and my goyf was in the meantime working on his life total. Then we traded the board (his aquamoeba + wurm vs. mine goyf), I topdecked SDT -> shriekmaw and bited his last 3 life off.

3rd round: Ub Fish-like-faerie-something
Something like Faerie Stompy, equipments + bitterblossom = bad times. I won 1st game thanks to double FoWing his creatures, and 2nd game thanks to resolved Plague naming faeries. Splash damage rules.

4th round: Rifter
Pretty easy, nothing to say. I had to stop Boil second game, and Abeyance which I did with already mentioned play Brainstorm -> dredge LftL -> put it on the top -> reveal with CB.

5th round: ID

quarterfinals: 43land.dec
Now that's where the real fun begins. 1st game I played it totally tight and had to make absolutely no mistake, at 8 life I started racing his Mishra with my goyf. He had Exploration, LftL and 3x Wasteland in the GY against my nonbasic manabase, but I still managed to make it on the wings of SDT and Intuition->LftL.
2nd game I sideboarded in graveyard hate (splash damage ftw!) + krosan grips and won it pretty handily, as i drew 2 stp for his 2 treetop village, extirpate for his LftL, FoW for his Crucible and he drew no Wasteland.

semifinals: the same Bw Deadguy Ale that I lost 1st round to due to manascrew. The games weren't interesting, as they all revolved around me trying to get manabase up and ready against his manadenial attempts. The only interesting moment was when he Extirpated my Tropical Islands only to find out I play single Breeding Pool as protection against such attempts.

In the finals I splitted it with the Painter Welder deck.

---------
So, what were my impressions from the deck and from the changes i made? Everything felt perfectly right. Hoofprints of the Stag were awesome even without Ponder, seems to me that SDT and Brainstorm abuse them enough. Also they have the much needed manacost of 2 and give +1/+1 to the goyf (being tribal, to grand total 7/8 from this deck alone).
Spell Snare was huge as well, I used it much more than Counterspell, only problem being decrease in 2 mana slot.
I didn't feel loss of Vedalken Shackles at all, confirming for me the impression that it is just a win more card in this deck. During first few turns sweep with sweepers, afterwards drop CB+Top - why use Shackles?
3 Intuitions may be right, I hate drawing 2 in the opening hand.
I didn't use the Academy Ruins during the day even once, and although with SBed Tormod's Crypt it may be working wonders, Wasteland may still in fact be better. Sometimes reviving Wasteland may help more than anything else.
Stronghold was pretty huge.
I hate Eternal Witness, but it's probably the neccessary evil.

[landstill101]

Hey guys.

This thread is...well, not worth reading through. So I'll post my thoughts and if I say things that have already been mentioned, sorry.

Me and 2 friends tested this deck out on Friday night for a few hours. We played this build:

8 Fetch
4 Trop
3 Tundra
3 Sea
1 Island
1 Stronghold
1 Ruins

4 Goyf
1 Eternal Witness

4 Brainstorm
3 Top
4 CBalance
3 Counterspell
4 FoW
4 Intuition
3 Deed
2 EE
2 Shackles
1 Loam
4 Swords to Plowshares

Exactly Gearheart's list on the first page. We played about 10 games against Thrash, preboard.

Here's what I noticed.
What the hell is up with Counterbalance and this decks curve? You almost never blind hit off CB. Let's check the number of cards in this deck that suck with Balance.

2 Shackles
3 Deed
4 Intuition
1 Eternal Witness
2 EE
21 Lands

That's...half the deck. Yeah. Basically, Counterbalance sucks in this deck without top in play. That shouldn't be.
Deed is incredibly clunky in this deck. EE is usually better, and Deed can almost never come down fast enough to get the job done.
Shackles is really strong, like usual.
Also, what's up with LftL and no draw engine? This deck literally cannot develop card advantage, which is going to hurt you in a lot of MUs.
With those thoughts in mind, we cut from the original list:

3 Deed
1 Intuition
1 Shackles

and ended up with this list:

8 Fetch
4 Trop
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Stronghold
1 Ruins
1 Lonely Sandbar

4 Tarmogoyf
1 Eternal Witness
1 Loxodon Hierarch

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Top
4 Counterbalance
4 FoW
4 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Intuition
1 Shackles
2 EE
1 Loam

This list can much more consistently abuse Counterbalance and still has a very strong Intuition plan later in the game. Hierarch is a good target against aggro, since recurring it with Stronghold is downright nutty.
This list was very strong in testing, however, it often felt like a crappy version of Black Thresh.
I'm just not sure ITF is where it's at right now.
Comments?

You should try the second list that he used that actually won in a huge tourny.( and of course add an off land like breeding pool or bayou to get out of extirpate range like spare parts says.) The togs if used right are a huge win, I don't know how many times I have won with just having a loam in grave and a tog in play, its pretty nuts how the dredge works with tog. Truly it sounds more like you just havn't been playing the deck right, I mean mental you're all over the landstill thread and your bashing deed? That seems strange when really this deck can play like landstill only it has a better late game with crazy recursion. When it comes down to it, this deck is like landstill as it slows the game down till late game then just owns, it just uses a different engine to win.

Mental you are really looking at this deck the wrong way, counterbalance in this deck is a must have or you might as well throw the deck away. The curve is actually one of the best in the game. It has a ton of 3cc, and if I recall 90% of the hate against counterbalance is ummmm well...... 3cc.( deed krosan grip, O stone, trygon predator.) so if I get to choose what random blind stuff I hit, I would like to hit the 3cc to stop the things that will blow up balance. Your worried to much about getting top out when realisticlly you have 7 tops with the inclusion of intuition.

The one big problem I do have with your list is the fact that if goyf gets extirpated you just scoop instantly. You cut down on shackles which ruins the chances of getting that, you don't have tog, and you run a 2/1 that can't get goyf after extirpate, and a 4/4 life gainer which gets swords so fast it doesn't get a swing in. Your deck is too vunerable to a single black mana.

ITF is the where it needs to be and can win a big tourny... It just needs the right pilot.


IF you truly want to tweak this deck, you don't play against a player who has played thrash alot and has huge experience with it when you don't have experience with ITF. You have to play against a variety and play against many players, its hard to get a feel for a deck when you only played one matchup. Also you might want to try and counter different things to see what the deck can do. In my testing threshold should sweat when they see you coming(this isn't saying you have a huge advantage, but the 2 decks are both good, and it usually comes down to the better skilled player and getting the other to fall into the traps.) Threshold players fear playing goyf against you, as well they should with shackles, but your list takes that fear out and lets them swing free because you also took out deed.


Stay close to the tourny list he used on the first page and you will be able to win.

[Shriekmaw]

I was looking over the different vesions of the deck that people have been playing/testing and drew some ideas to at least consider.

I was wondering anyone has considered replacing tarmogoyf in the deck with bitterblossom? I don't think the life loss is that relevant in a deck like this one which can also speed up the wins instead of goinig into the long game.

I'm not sure what the correct number would be to play, but its something to at least consider on how broken that card is. I actually rate bitterblossom higher than tarmogoyf in control style decks.

What do you think?

[Spare Parts]

I was looking over the different vesions of the deck that people have been playing/testing and drew some ideas to at least consider.

I was wondering anyone has considered replacing tarmogoyf in the deck with bitterblossom? I don't think the life loss is that relevant in a deck like this one which can also speed up the wins instead of goinig into the long game.

I'm not sure what the correct number would be to play, but its something to at least consider on how broken that card is. I actually rate bitterblossom higher than tarmogoyf in control style decks.

What do you think?I don't think that BB is a control style card. It's aggro-control card, providing you with "forcefield" effect while your other creatures and disrupt are working on opponent's life total and cards.

Tarmogoyf is important in that he can shy away the attackers. If your opponent has two 4/4 attackers, he won't attack into a goyf, but he will attack into a BB tokens. Tarmogoyf can stop attackers, whereas BB only "forcefields" them.

Majority of games take 10 turns at least. Damage from BB stacks really fast.

BB cannot be recurred with Volrath's Stronghold, which is a big downside.

All in all, why not use Hoofprints of the Stag as I did in my deck this weekend? I was really highly satisfied with them. They generate (at worst) the same amount of P/T as BB per turn, and almost always much more. They are "tribal" as well, thus enlarging your goyf. They don't make you lose your own precious life.


Bitterblossom is certainly an interesting card, but only in an aggro-control strategy. Something like "equip SoFI/Jitte to 1/1 faerie, attack for 5, draw a card".

[landstill101]

I was looking over the different vesions of the deck that people have been playing/testing and drew some ideas to at least consider.

I was wondering anyone has considered replacing tarmogoyf in the deck with bitterblossom? I don't think the life loss is that relevant in a deck like this one which can also speed up the wins instead of goinig into the long game.

I'm not sure what the correct number would be to play, but its something to at least consider on how broken that card is. I actually rate bitterblossom higher than tarmogoyf in control style decks.

What do you think?

Well spare parts hit the big reason that BB shouldn't be in the deck because of stronghold and that it doesn't actually stop attacks. But this card also doesn't work because it doesn't help in any way possible against an aggro deck like the burn aggro decks or goblins because you still take damage each turn and they will just over run you, and also goyf has somewhat bad synergy against deed but BB has even worse. Against decks like threshold or landstill, you games can easily go on longer than 20-25 turns which in turn will force you to blow a deed just to hit your own bitterblossom so you don't lose the game and in turn blow your countertop setup. But with goyf out, you arn't take damage and you can race someone or just block until you get board control.

[Shriekmaw]

Well spare parts hit the big reason that BB shouldn't be in the deck because of stronghold and that it doesn't actually stop attacks. But this card also doesn't work because it doesn't help in any way possible against an aggro deck like the burn aggro decks or goblins because you still take damage each turn and they will just over run you, and also goyf has somewhat bad synergy against deed but BB has even worse. Against decks like threshold or landstill, you games can easily go on longer than 20-25 turns which in turn will force you to blow a deed just to hit your own bitterblossom so you don't lose the game and in turn blow your countertop setup. But with goyf out, you arn't take damage and you can race someone or just block until you get board control.

You use Bitterblossom the same was you use goyf. You wait until the late game when you have the board under control and just win. Maybe its not a good card in the deck, but it should be explored as a possiblity. In control decks, I believe Bitterblossom is better than Goyf, if I ever put a 3 color landstill deck together, I would add the black splash for sideboard cards in addittion to the main deck Bitterblossom.

It's just another card to win you the game late, I think it has some merit. It should at least be explored. Remember, you play the card late, not early in the course of the game.

[Deep6er]

That's one of the problems. You want Tarmogoyf early in order to discourage your opponent from attacking, and to block more effectively. The late game is less important than the early game. Especially considering Vedalken Shackles. That card is insanely good the longer the game goes. Don't get me wrong, I like Bitterblossom a lot and want to find a good deck to put it in, but I don't think it's this one.

[Shriekmaw]

That's one of the problems. You want Tarmogoyf early in order to discourage your opponent from attacking, and to block more effectively. The late game is less important than the early game. Especially considering Vedalken Shackles. That card is insanely good the longer the game goes. Don't get me wrong, I like Bitterblossom a lot and want to find a good deck to put it in, but I don't think it's this one.


I understand completly where you are coming from. I didn't think Bitterblossom would be a better choice in your deck, but just wanted people to start thinking about it how good the card is. I would love to make a legacy faeries deck viable.

Keep up the good work and hopefully we will have the opportunity to play again in a tournament soon.

[landstill101]

Just played a tourny with about 15 ppl. Here is the list of decks for the meta:
UGR threshold
UGW threshold
RBG goblins
RG goblins
2 RBW burn aggro decks
42 land.dec
TES
chain of mesphotofdfasofjsdfk whatever deck
stax
rock
white weenie
dragon stompy
and a couple of others that I don't remember

My first 4 rounds went like this.
Rock
He wasteland and extirpated tropical, wastelanded bayou, and extirpated tog. which by this time I was able to then control the board with 2 shackles and countertop and then stalled out. Eventually I had him down to 3 cards in deck with 3 minutes left, and he took the longest fuckin turn in the world and said go as time ran out to become active player to force a draw.
0-0-1

RG goblins
Don't remember much other than I completly owned with shackles
1-0-1

RGB goblins
The same thing as last
2-0-1

chain deck
He left of something and didn't show up for 25 mins and expected me to be ok about it and still play, soo I was nice and only make him take 1 game loss, then smack him hard core for the second.
3-0-1

first playoff game TES
Both games I draw the perfect countertop force blue card and 3 lands both game and he couldn't go off until turn 3, and by this time I was set up and won( he got bad hands and mullugens both games)

Split for top because was to lazy and went to play the cube.


The deck has now won me 4 tournies in a row and has performed more than up to expectations, have only truly lost against 2 players so far in the last 2 tournies, 1 was from belcher which he got 2 first turn kill and I didn't draw shit.(then beat him in top 4) And then against a burn deck which I got horrible countertop reveals(bad luck does happen every once in a while. But came back and beat him in top 2)

[Mijorre]

he took the longest fuckin turn in the world and said go as time ran out to become active player to force a draw

That's where you generally get your five extra turns or get the judge to give him a warning/GL for retarded slow play.

Relevant rules:
*If the match time limit is reached before a winner is determined, the active player (as defined in the Magic game rules) finishes his or her turn and five total additional turns are played. For example, time is called on player A’s turn. Player A finishes his or her turn. Player B takes extra turn #1, Player A takes extra turn #2, Player B takes extra turn #3, player A takes extra turn #4, and player B takes extra turn #5.

*Players who take longer than is reasonably required to complete game actions are engaging in Slow Play. If a judge believes a player is intentionally playing slowly to take advantage of a time limit, the infraction is Cheating — Stalling.
*If Slow Play has significantly affected the result of the match, the Head Judge may upgrade the penalty.
*(Cheating - Stalling) If it is clear that a player is stalling, the integrity of the match is compromised and he or she will face a serious penalty. [DQ without prize]


didn't show up for 25 mins

Game Loss, tardiness.

Relevant rules:

*A penalty will not be given if a round started early and a player arrived at his or her seat before the originally announced start time. At Regular and Competitive events, or in tournaments where matches consist of a single game, the tournament organizer may elect to give players the amount of time allotted for the pre-game procedure (3 minutes) before a penalty is issued. Otherwise, the appropriate penalty is issued as soon as the round begins. At any REL, if a player is not in his or her seat 10 minutes into the round, he or she is issued a second Game Loss (or two Game Losses at Regular REL). A player receiving two Game Losses for Tardiness in the same round (or one Game Loss for single-game matches) is dropped from the tournament unless they report to the Head Judge or Scorekeeper before the end of the round.

Yes, having a judge around could be useful at times.

[landstill101]

That's where you generally get your five extra turns or get the judge to give him a warning/GL for retarded slow play.

Relevant rules:
*If the match time limit is reached before a winner is determined, the active player (as defined in the Magic game rules) finishes his or her turn and five total additional turns are played. For example, time is called on player A’s turn. Player A finishes his or her turn. Player B takes extra turn #1, Player A takes extra turn #2, Player B takes extra turn #3, player A takes extra turn #4, and player B takes extra turn #5.

*Players who take longer than is reasonably required to complete game actions are engaging in Slow Play. If a judge believes a player is intentionally playing slowly to take advantage of a time limit, the infraction is Cheating — Stalling.
*If Slow Play has significantly affected the result of the match, the Head Judge may upgrade the penalty.
*(Cheating - Stalling) If it is clear that a player is stalling, the integrity of the match is compromised and he or she will face a serious penalty. [DQ without prize]



Game Loss, tardiness.

Relevant rules:

*A penalty will not be given if a round started early and a player arrived at his or her seat before the originally announced start time. At Regular and Competitive events, or in tournaments where matches consist of a single game, the tournament organizer may elect to give players the amount of time allotted for the pre-game procedure (3 minutes) before a penalty is issued. Otherwise, the appropriate penalty is issued as soon as the round begins. At any REL, if a player is not in his or her seat 10 minutes into the round, he or she is issued a second Game Loss (or two Game Losses at Regular REL). A player receiving two Game Losses for Tardiness in the same round (or one Game Loss for single-game matches) is dropped from the tournament unless they report to the Head Judge or Scorekeeper before the end of the round.

Yes, having a judge around could be useful at times.


the stalling does not count if the player is actually playing actions during his turn, it doesn't matter if he is stalling or not if he is playing things during his turn, which he played a spell during his main phase, attacked, played a couple of more spells during the second main phase, and then extirpated and did a couple of other things, which in the rules of the game it is not considered stalling even though we both know that he was doing it to waste time....Which Kind of sucks becaus I could have called stalling but Decided against it because it was a friend and nothing would have happened

And on the game loss, I was being nice and only gave him 1 game loss Which if I didn't have complete faith that I would win, I would have just made him take 2 losses. But I also hate the kid with a passion and it always feels better pounding those kind of people in to the ground so I can rub it in his face.



Anywaze I wish we had an officialy judge around to help rule things but we onl have a judge that has passed the first test but didn't follow up because he went to college instead.

[Nihil Credo]

the stalling does not count if the player is actually playing actions during his turn, it doesn't matter if he is stalling or not if he is playing things during his turn, which he played a spell during his main phase, attacked, played a couple of more spells during the second main phase, and then extirpated and did a couple of other things, which in the rules of the game it is not considered stalling even though we both know that he was doing it to waste time....Which Kind of sucks becaus I could have called stalling but Decided against it because it was a friend and nothing would have happened

Slow play still applies, though.

[Giles]

Here is my deck, I am very happy with it….

This is what I have decided to run for my one-of intuition targets:
Genesis/ Gigapede/ Eternal Witness/ Life from the Loam/Ruins./Stronghold
There is no question why this not to run these cards. But If you need something… It forces to get the card you want. Also do not forget about the hot synergy between the recursive land and Counterbalance.

Viridian Zealot:
This is the only card that is reasonable that can destroy artifacts and enchantments with a self-supporting sac-outlet for Genesis/Stronghold. Yes, Capashen Unicorn is easier on the colored mana, and has a bigger “butt.” Yet the tap in the cost makes it less useable.

Shriekmaw:
Same as Zealot, only for creatures.

Morphling:
Amazing! Really. Makes man lands almost useless. Attacking and Blocking in one is awesome. I honestly could go on and on about how good it really is. Also I think that Psychatog does not play well with Tarmogoyf or this deck at all. If Superman is not your style that is fine by me, yet I think it is a great solution for the “I win game” clause in the deck.

Side: Silent Arbiter
It is for the beats, not sure yet if it keeps it place. But for now I am happy for it. I am willing to discuss/advise about this choice.

Here is my list for reference:

Lands
1 Academy Ruins
3 Underground Sea
3 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Island
4 Tropical Island
2 Tundra

Creatures
1 Genesis
1 Gigapede
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Shriekmaw
1 Morphling
1 Eternal Witness

Spells
3 Intuition
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Vedalken Shackles
1 Life from the Loam
3 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Engineered Explosives

Sideboard
2 Faerie Macabre
3 Krosan Grip
3 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Duress
1 Silent Arbiter
2 Pernicious Deed

Sidenote:
Faerie Macabre is awesome… It is nothing like crypt or jailer or anything else. It is nuts. Play some in every deck you make
Big Selling points:
Zero mana for effect And Uncounterable
Three mana casting cost
Can Chump if needed.

Duress, I am not sure about this spot… I want to cut it…But can’t. HALP.

[Illissius]

Duress, I am not sure about this spot… I want to cut it…But can’t. HALP.

Meddling Mage? Thoughtseize?

[Giles]

Meddling Mage? Thoughtseize?

See thoughtseize would just be a worse duress. It really is the lack of black mana in the deck that makes me worry about it.

Meddling Mage has the same problem, but with white mana.

[Mental]

You should try the second list that he used that actually won in a huge tourny.( and of course add an off land like breeding pool or bayou to get out of extirpate range like spare parts says.) The togs if used right are a huge win, I don't know how many times I have won with just having a loam in grave and a tog in play, its pretty nuts how the dredge works with tog. Truly it sounds more like you just havn't been playing the deck right, I mean mental you're all over the landstill thread and your bashing deed? That seems strange when really this deck can play like landstill only it has a better late game with crazy recursion. When it comes down to it, this deck is like landstill as it slows the game down till late game then just owns, it just uses a different engine to win.

Mental you are really looking at this deck the wrong way, counterbalance in this deck is a must have or you might as well throw the deck away. The curve is actually one of the best in the game. It has a ton of 3cc, and if I recall 90% of the hate against counterbalance is ummmm well...... 3cc.( deed krosan grip, O stone, trygon predator.) so if I get to choose what random blind stuff I hit, I would like to hit the 3cc to stop the things that will blow up balance. Your worried to much about getting top out when realisticlly you have 7 tops with the inclusion of intuition.

The one big problem I do have with your list is the fact that if goyf gets extirpated you just scoop instantly. You cut down on shackles which ruins the chances of getting that, you don't have tog, and you run a 2/1 that can't get goyf after extirpate, and a 4/4 life gainer which gets swords so fast it doesn't get a swing in. Your deck is too vunerable to a single black mana.

ITF is the where it needs to be and can win a big tourny... It just needs the right pilot.


IF you truly want to tweak this deck, you don't play against a player who has played thrash alot and has huge experience with it when you don't have experience with ITF. You have to play against a variety and play against many players, its hard to get a feel for a deck when you only played one matchup. Also you might want to try and counter different things to see what the deck can do. In my testing threshold should sweat when they see you coming(this isn't saying you have a huge advantage, but the 2 decks are both good, and it usually comes down to the better skilled player and getting the other to fall into the traps.) Threshold players fear playing goyf against you, as well they should with shackles, but your list takes that fear out and lets them swing free because you also took out deed.


Stay close to the tourny list he used on the first page and you will be able to win.

Tog is an awful card. It's decent with the loam engine, and only with the loam engine. I'd rather play Shackles for a good late game.

Countebalance is horrible in this deck. It's hits 3cc way to often. You think that's good, but it's bad against most of the tier 1 - Threshold. Protecting balance when it doesn't do shit because it needs to flip 3cc to often to protect itself is, well, awful. Plus, Deed has horrible synergy with it. Sure I like Deed in Landstill - but not here. There are too many important permanents in this deck.

Goyf getting extirpated sucks, sure, but you still have intuition for Academy Ruins/Loam/Shackles. Heirarch isn't for the thresh MU, hes for random other MUs where 4 Life and a body is really good, and even better with Stronghold.

BTW, me and my friends all took turns playing this deck and thrash. So it wasn't "bad ITF player against good thrash player." And ITF did win some games - but the new incarnation won a lot more. I'd bet my version also has a better thresh MU.

[landstill101]

Tog is an awful card. It's decent with the loam engine, and only with the loam engine. I'd rather play Shackles for a good late game..
There is no content to this part, pls stop blasting this deck for no reason. This card is a good card, if it wasn't there wouldn't be decks build around it duhhh.


Countebalance is horrible in this deck. It's hits 3cc way to often. You think that's good, but it's bad against most of the tier 1 - Threshold. Protecting balance when it doesn't do shit because it needs to flip 3cc to often to protect itself is, well, awful. Plus, Deed has horrible synergy with it. Sure I like Deed in Landstill - but not here. There are too many important permanents in this deck..

Counterbalance is the key in this deck. Without it there is no deck, if you don't like it, stop posting, your just bashing a deck because you can't play it right, This deck wins because of countertop out to keep a soft lock and the recursion of any card you need. This deck is kind a mix of threshold and landstill, and if it not played that way then it wont win, but if piloted right, it can dominate, it wouldn't be here if it didn't win.

By your saying that deed is not good in this deck is practically the same as saying its bad in landstill, there are soo many similarities from this to landstill that you could almost put them in the same thread. Learn to play deed right or go back to playing thrash.


Goyf getting extirpated sucks, sure, but you still have intuition for Academy Ruins/Loam/Shackles. Heirarch isn't for the thresh MU, hes for random other MUs where 4 Life and a body is really good, and even better with Stronghold..
Most decks that life gain is needed are the boros decks and fast red burn aggro decks, which by the time you get heriarch out its to late to matter, and you still lose because you gave up half of the deck to play a completly different deck.

BTW, me and my friends all took turns playing this deck and thrash. So it wasn't "bad ITF player against good thrash player." And ITF did win some games - but the new incarnation won a lot more. I'd bet my version also has a better thresh MU.No duh the new incarnation won, you changed it to beat one deck in the format, and you changed it to play more like threshold, no duh you will be able to play it better. If you don't like the deck DON'T PLAY IT, YOU DON'T HAVE TO POST.

[Mental]

There is no content to this part, pls stop blasting this deck for no reason. This card is a good card, if it wasn't there wouldn't be decks build around it duhhh.



Counterbalance is the key in this deck. Without it there is no deck, if you don't like it, stop posting, your just bashing a deck because you can't play it right, This deck wins because of countertop out to keep a soft lock and the recursion of any card you need. This deck is kind a mix of threshold and landstill, and if it not played that way then it wont win, but if piloted right, it can dominate, it wouldn't be here if it didn't win.

By your saying that deed is not good in this deck is practically the same as saying its bad in landstill, there are soo many similarities from this to landstill that you could almost put them in the same thread. Learn to play deed right or go back to playing thrash.


Most decks that life gain is needed are the boros decks and fast red burn aggro decks, which by the time you get heriarch out its to late to matter, and you still lose because you gave up half of the deck to play a completly different deck.
No duh the new incarnation won, you changed it to beat one deck in the format, and you changed it to play more like threshold, no duh you will be able to play it better. If you don't like the deck DON'T PLAY IT, YOU DON'T HAVE TO POST.

Jesus, calm down. I'm not allowed to bash a deck? Why not? I'm bringing up intelligent points. If you don't like it, go deal with it.

Tog is a bad card. Here's why:
It's bad in the early game.
It's 3 mana for a 1/2.
Goyf trumps it unless you want to create massive card disadvantage or it's the fairly late game.
Again, if Tog is good, Shackles is probably better.

I agree that Counterbalance is the key to this deck. However, you can't plan on having both Balance and Top in your opening hand every game. So you need Balance to function on its own - that is, blindly countering Goyf, Geese, Cantrips, and other such things. If it can't do that without Top in play, it's not worth playing, IMO.

Deed is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT in this deck than it is in Landstill. Observe:
Landstill runs up to 6 cards that have disynergy with Deed - 4 Goyf, 2 Shackles. Probably never anything more than that.
ITF runs at least 10 cards that have disynergy with Deed - 4 Goyf, 4 Balance, 2 Shackles. I see a difference.

Hierarch is also good against Goblins because it usually takes out a Driver and buys you a turn, which is nice. Against Thresh it trumps Geese. Anyway, it could become Shackles #2.

I changed the deck to play more like Threshold, sure, and to beat THE BEST DECK IN THE FORMAT more consistently. Beating the best deck in the format much more often (I don't see the even MU you guys claim against Thresh) and keeping other MUs good (I think the addition of the cycling land helps the Landstill MU, which is already probably decent based on Loam + Stronghold/Ruins) isn't a sin. Stop talking like innovation is bad.

[Deep6er]

You do realize that the reason why the three casting cost cards are in the deck is so that you can still function under an opposing Counterbalance, right? As it turns out, if you make a deck that will blindly counter things at 1-2, YOU'LL NEVER RESOLVE THOSE CARDS UNDER AN OPPOSING COUNTERBALANCE.

Do you understand? That's why Counterbalance is the trump card in game 1 of the Threshold mirror. The three cost cards in It's the Fear mean that you can still play Magic under an opposing Counterbalance. Additionally, Threshold is not the ONLY DECK IN THE FORMAT. As it turns out, people play other decks as well. Often, those other decks play cards at three in order to combat Counterbalance as well.

Landstill101 isn't making innovation out to be a sin, he's defending one of the core ideals of the deck, which is to be able to play Magic under an opposing Counterbalance. He probably said it a bit harsher than intended, but whatever, it's the internet, people are mean.

[godryk]

I've been testing a little ITF these days and I'm really liking the deck, it's incredibly versatile playing both control and aggrocontrol roles. I've played against some Threshold and aggrocontrol players and I have the feeling that this deck is only composed by cards the opponent cannot let resolve. If Counterbalance sticks you can softlock your opponent and win with Goyf. I know CB doesn't hit blindly so often as Threshold does, but you have much more control elements than Threshold. If CB gets handled, then I have Swords (I really think this deck has to run it) or EE to get rid of his stuff. Afterwards, you drop a Deed and blow it all. And of course there are Intuition locks. I mean, I don't want to be redundant, but this deck has too many threats the opponente has to answer.

Deed may blow your own stuff, but, besides you can even get some card advantage, I found that this deck's access to recursion in form of Volrath's Stronghold and Academy Ruins can minimize the effect of this. I mean, if I get a Intuition to resolve I will get access to not only 3 but ten cards in my graveyard.

About Intuition targets, I have tested Tog and Shriekmaw. As many others have stated, Tog is usually just a 1/2 which can't fly or trample, most of time I'd rather have a 6/7. Shriekmaw is nice but a little redundant and many times Intuition for EE does the same job. Now I'm thinking of testing a second Witness, Witness for Pernicious is too good to not abuse of it.

[Misplayer]

@Giles: Why did you cut an Intuition to add more Intuition targets? Also, why the 3 basic Islands?

@landstill101: I see that you smashed Gobs twice on the strength of Shackles. How do/did you answer a t1 Vial? I've found that once they get Vial going with Matron/Ringleader/SGC et al, Shackles is not even close to enough and you're praying for Deed. Has anyone else had trouble with the Goblins matchup?

I agree with godryk 100% about the deck's versatility. Every card is so potent that it usually becomes a must-answer for your opponent. Whatever they don't answer determines how you play the deck. On top of that, ITF packs answers for all their must-answer cards, making it an incredibly fun deck to play.

To me, this deck is easy to play but difficult to play optimally. The Intuition decisions alone have me clicking the "Thinking" button way more often than usual. I'm probably just a poor control player though.

Lastly, someone mentioned before the strength of Bob in the deck. Bob wins games and is one of the biggest 'must-answer' cards in the format. I've been testing Gearhart's list -3 Counterspell +3 Confidant, and so far I have been very pleased with the results.

[landstill101]

Deep6er: Thank you, Yes I'm a tad bit harsh but hey whats the internet for if I'm not aloud to shout out a little anger that I'm not aloud to do in public without getting thrown in jail.:tongue:

Godryk: misplayer already said it.

Misplayer: Well against the goblins players I think I only saw vial once and it was late game and didn't matter. I did see lackey 3 games out of 4 which gives me relief That I was able to stop first turn lackey. I'm planning on meeting with a bunch of buddies for the huge legacy tourny coming up I think next week to do alot of play testing, soo I'll check out how the first turn vial turns out.

[Mental]

You do realize that the reason why the three casting cost cards are in the deck is so that you can still function under an opposing Counterbalance, right? As it turns out, if you make a deck that will blindly counter things at 1-2, YOU'LL NEVER RESOLVE THOSE CARDS UNDER AN OPPOSING COUNTERBALANCE.

Do you understand? That's why Counterbalance is the trump card in game 1 of the Threshold mirror. The three cost cards in It's the Fear mean that you can still play Magic under an opposing Counterbalance. Additionally, Threshold is not the ONLY DECK IN THE FORMAT. As it turns out, people play other decks as well. Often, those other decks play cards at three in order to combat Counterbalance as well.

Landstill101 isn't making innovation out to be a sin, he's defending one of the core ideals of the deck, which is to be able to play Magic under an opposing Counterbalance. He probably said it a bit harsher than intended, but whatever, it's the internet, people are mean.

It's not a trump against Thresh because it barely does anything against them Blind. And against opposing Counterbalances, you can still Intuition for Ruins, Loam, and EE. It's a paradox that in order to make Counterbalance good against Counterbalance you have to make it bad against Thresh, sure. But I'd rather not play sweepers that, at least in my testing, this deck has trouble supporting and are anti synergistic with it's gameplan, like Pernicious Deed.

Ok Deep6er, what are the cards that cost 3 mana you're afraid of, that are played by other decks in the format?
Matron, Warchief, Cunning Wish, Intuition, Crucible of Worlds, Deed, Countryside Crusher, and Terravore. I could be missing a little bit.
Well, it doesn't seem to me like those cards are a reason to make Counterbalance bad against the best deck in the format unless you're in a heavy Goblins/Landstill meta, which I'm not, and I think most people aren't.

[Deep6er]

Magus of the Moon, Blood Moon, Krosan Grip, the list goes on and on.

What I think you're missing, is that Threshold is not the ONLY deck in the format. Sure, it's the best deck, but you have solid game against them anyway. My testing has definitely shown that It's the Fear is favored against Threshold. Why warp the deck so badly to get a possible ten percent, when it ACTUALLY just screws you out of playing Magic if they land a Counterbalance before you?

You have a bad case of tunnel vision. Take a look around. The top 8's aren't completely dominated by Threshold. Chill dude. The Threshold match is fine.

[Mental]

Magus of the Moon, Blood Moon, Krosan Grip, the list goes on and on.

What I think you're missing, is that Threshold is not the ONLY deck in the format. Sure, it's the best deck, but you have solid game against them anyway. My testing has definitely shown that It's the Fear is favored against Threshold. Why warp the deck so badly to get a possible ten percent, when it ACTUALLY just screws you out of playing Magic if they land a Counterbalance before you?

You have a bad case of tunnel vision. Take a look around. The top 8's aren't completely dominated by Threshold. Chill dude. The Threshold match is fine.

Yeah, you're probably right. I still feel like Deed is clunky in this deck, and that Intuition could be better abused in every MU, not just the Thresh one. But my changes probably were a little too drastic.

[Spare Parts]

Yup, Threshold matchup is already in our favor, I don't think we have to make heavy adjustments of the maindeck for the sole purpose of raising our winning percentages against it. So far I think that this deck is favored against all kinds of aggro-control and control decks, running on par with pure aggro decks (if properly built) and having problems against decks that don't need non-land permanents to actually win the game (combo, Ichorid, forty-something-land.dec, burn). And against Dragon Stompy, quite obviously, but I don't think we can ever get our matchup against Dragon Stompy to being better than even.
Ichorid: we maindeck some solutions to bridge tokens, this matchup should be addressed primarily by the sideboard (I know I know, I am a genius or something - use your sideboard against Ichorid!! what an idea!!) - I think Extirpate is the best choice because it also has its uses against other decks, disrupting their GY based strategies - LftL recursion, Genesis recursion etc. You almost can't ever hit LftL with Crypt, you know, and Leyline is too narrow. (excess Extirpates may address another threats, while excess Leylines are well ... excess).

Combo: t3h problem, we can't expect to get CB+Top going by the time they try to go off backed up by Orim's Chant, Xantid Swarm or discard. SB Meddling Mage or Thoughtseize/Duress? Discard may give us time to complete CB+Top lock, especially if combined with Extirpates I mentioned in the paragraph right above. Also, Extirpate can pretty much screw IGG based combos.

Aggro: that's why I changed Counterspells to Spell Snares in my version of this deck, aggro should be handled by the maindeck. There's almost no place to address it in the SB, other than omnipresent BEB.

Well, this is the SB:
3 Extirpate
1 Tormod's Crypt (Intuition into crypt+Academy Ruins+LftL)
4 Thoughtseize
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Engineered Plague

Yes, no Krosan Grip. It doesn't solve any of our bad matchups, and we already have 3 Deeds + 2 EE + sexy Intuition into EE recursion. My sideboard against combo is quite heavily "black" based, but I don't expect combo decks to disrupt my manabase.

Maindeck I use is still the same as I posted 2 pages or so ago (the one I won with, if someone still does remember my little tourney report back there).

[darkalucard]

All this "It's the Fear" deck is somebody figuring out that Threshold is too tempo based and Landstill needs a better early game and so he merges the strategies, makes some personal card choices according to his experience and plays the deck. This is the natural evolution of control.

This is what happened:
-Somebody was brave enough to use his brain and make a good metagame control deck.
-He had the skill to play it.
-He did well at a tournament.
-Everyone flocks to the "new deck" because they think it's some kind of new tech to help them.
-Everybody sucks and cant take advantage of the tech because they didn't personal come up with it themselves and do not understand it so they show there version of tech and like allot of control deck everybody ignored eachother and just rambles pointless opinions hoping people agree but they dont because they have there own decklist and opinions and everyone is stubborn and nobody understands eachother and most players on here suck or cannot learn new things and blah blah blah.

I just cannot understand why this deck has its own thread.

I have made many decks that are a pile of good cards like this and perform just as good or better.

For example "The Rock" thread is practically 50 different decks and if they gave them a new name and people on this forum liked them enough and they top 8ed they would get there own decklist for a variant of something else that is nothing new but supposable some newly defined tech.

BTW This includes "Eva Green" as all it is, is Sui with Goyf. Oh but they didn't play Tombstalker, Thoughtseize, and Goyf! Ummm thats because they werent printed! Decks evolve as the format changes and there are new playable cards. "Eva Green" is somebody trying to make a new deck realizing it was bad and slowly realizing it to the point they take the bad cards out and it becomes somebody aknowledging that the format changes.

The only reason why there are so many decks in legacy is because people dont realize certain decks are bad or don't test enough to have there version refined so the format is a billion variants of 20 different decks. People dont follow the format and people are stubborn and keep playing outdated decks untill somebody figures out Legacy does change and makes the "new list" with a "new name" to go get people to realize that there deck changed.

The fact is though there are no set decks and any good player can throw together a pile of good cards after taking a look at the format and then outplay everyone with the pile and win.

People lose because:
- They don't know the format.
- They choose a bad deck.
- They play a deck thats bad in the metagame.
- They don't know how to play there deck.
- They don't know how to play there match ups.
- They just plain suck.

Excuse my rant but I thought I had some very good point running through my head and this thread seemed like a good place to vent it and start a healthy disscusion.

[landstill101]

All this "It's the Fear" deck is somebody figuring out that Threshold is too tempo based and Landstill needs a better early game and so he merges the strategies, makes some personal card choices according to his experience and plays the deck. This is the natural evolution of control.

This is what happened:
-Somebody was brave enough to use his brain and make a good metagame control deck.
-He had the skill to play it.
-He did well at a tournament.
-Everyone flocks to the "new deck" because they think it's some kind of new tech to help them.
-Everybody sucks and cant take advantage of the tech because they didn't personal come up with it themselves and do not understand it so they show there version of tech and like allot of control deck everybody ignored eachother and just rambles pointless opinions hoping people agree but they dont because they have there own decklist and opinions and everyone is stubborn and nobody understands eachother and most players on here suck or cannot learn new things and blah blah blah.

I just cannot understand why this deck has its own thread.

I have made many decks that are a pile of good cards like this and perform just as good or better.

For example "The Rock" thread is practically 50 different decks and if they gave them a new name and people on this forum liked them enough and they top 8ed they would get there own decklist for a variant of something else that is nothing new but supposable some newly defined tech.

BTW This includes "Eva Green" as all it is, is Sui with Goyf. Oh but they didn't play Tombstalker, Thoughtseize, and Goyf! Ummm thats because they werent printed! Decks evolve as the format changes and there are new playable cards. "Eva Green" is somebody trying to make a new deck realizing it was bad and slowly realizing it to the point they take the bad cards out and it becomes somebody aknowledging that the format changes.

The only reason why there are so many decks in legacy is because people dont realize certain decks are bad or don't test enough to have there version refined so the format is a billion variants of 20 different decks. People dont follow the format and people are stubborn and keep playing outdated decks untill somebody figures out Legacy does change and makes the "new list" with a "new name" to go get people to realize that there deck changed.

The fact is though there are no set decks and any good player can throw together a pile of good cards after taking a look at the format and then outplay everyone with the pile and win.

People lose because:
- They don't know the format.
- They choose a bad deck.
- They play a deck thats bad in the metagame.
- They don't know how to play there deck.
- They don't know how to play there match ups.
- They just plain suck.

Excuse my rant but I thought I had some very good point running through my head and this thread seemed like a good place to vent it and start a healthy disscusion.

Sooo Is this post ment for everyone on here, or are you just venting off and just randomly choose this one. Anywaze I think more or less he is perfectly right, As it has been talked about a couple of times and has a thread soley to talk about it, almost every deck says it has a favorable matchup against threshold and in almost every case that is completly wrong, the decks actually have a good matchup against bad threshold players, Right now I have not lost to threshold yet with this deck, but many of the people that play it around me do not play it well at all.(Yawg is starting to play threshold soo we will have a good player soon.) But it also works the same the other way around, a great threshold player can easily beat any good player no matter the deck, it doesn't matter if the play dragon stompy or this deck, they will still win from shear skill. Ok back to the deck....

I played in a 12 man tourny last night and split first place by going 3-1 for swiss. I beat Thrash, chain of mepho deck, and white stax and lost to enchantress, then beat a eva green deck for playoffs and split with the enchantress deck, which then we left and played cube the rest of the night. Right now the deck is still performing.

[godryk]

Just a quick question to the people who have tested the deck, have you ever felt you needed some way of life gain? Maybe some sexy Stronghold recursion. I always find tight the matchup against fast aggro. Landstill has access to Cunning to Pulse of the Fields. When playing the control role, I find myself too many times winning at 1-4 points of life, and this become an issue against decks with reach in form of burn or hasty guys. Is that anything that can be solved only by playing the deck "properly"?

[landstill101]

Just a quick question to the people who have tested the deck, have you ever felt you needed some way of life gain? Maybe some sexy Stronghold recursion. I always find tight the matchup against fast aggro. Landstill has access to Cunning to Pulse of the Fields. When playing the control role, I find myself too many times winning at 1-4 points of life, and this become an issue against decks with reach in form of burn or hasty guys. Is that anything that can be solved only by playing the deck "properly"?

Really to be honest, no, But I have been testing darkheart sliver in the sideboard to help for that matchup, and it has been helping. The one thing that you can do with the deck, is always hold the swords for your own creatures, Swords on the goyf for 6 life is pretty powerful.

[Spare Parts]

godryk: landstill101 is pretty much right, I was playtesting version with Kitchen Finks and it was never really worth the mana I spent playing it, even against aggressive decks. Darkheart Sliver may be better, but still not good enough I'm afraid.

[Misplayer]

A quick response to darkalucard's rant:

I think what significantly differentiates this deck from Thresh and Landstill is the Intuition/Loam/recursion engine which is a pretty significant part of the deck. I do agree that this deck isn't format breaking and there is no new tech to be found here, but all the same it's still a solid deck that's competitive in the metagame and fun to play. Besides, not all innovation is earth-shattering.

/response

Anyway, I too have encountered low life totals during wins against aggro. While tighter play could likely reduce some of these occurrences, I think it's just the nature of playing a control deck. I've experienced the same thing with Stax and MUC. It takes some time to establish dominant board position but once you do it usually doesn't matter what your life total is. After all, winning at a low life total is still winning right?

[raharu]

You do realize that the reason why the three casting cost cards are in the deck is so that you can still function under an opposing Counterbalance, right? As it turns out, if you make a deck that will blindly counter things at 1-2, YOU'LL NEVER RESOLVE THOSE CARDS UNDER AN OPPOSING COUNTERBALANCE.

Do you understand? That's why Counterbalance is the trump card in game 1 of the Threshold mirror. The three cost cards in It's the Fear mean that you can still play Magic under an opposing Counterbalance. Additionally, Threshold is not the ONLY DECK IN THE FORMAT. As it turns out, people play other decks as well. Often, those other decks play cards at three in order to combat Counterbalance as well.

Landstill101 isn't making innovation out to be a sin, he's defending one of the core ideals of the deck, which is to be able to play Magic under an opposing Counterbalance. He probably said it a bit harsher than intended, but whatever, it's the internet, people are mean.

Truth. I'm having the same fucking argument in the Dreadstill thread right now. Playing a deck with really badass blind CB reveals also means that you're going to get railed by... MOTHERFUCKING CB. Imagine that! You also run straight into Chalice from Staxx and tend to get hit harder by Spell Snare, which is becoming increasingly relevant and played in the format because of the same ignorant trend in deckbuilding that's fueling CB's popularity.

EDIT: @ darkalucard: Yeah, people (like >99% of this board) don't know how to intrepret decklists sucessfully, i.e. they think the list plays like x, but in all actuality it doesn' play shit like it, so they derp up the boards and threads with retardedness and fail. Still, this is a new frontier in deckbuilding, and not all Land-hold Thresh-still hybrid babies turn out this beautiful (they aren't hapas after all), and few of them play out similar or have similar playstyles. A solid portion of the lists that Team Battletoadz has drafted aren't anywhere near as strong and/ or mature as David's brainchild. Most of the lists that result from this hybridization process are rather debased, fugly amalgamations of threshold's solid core concept and landstill's solid recursion and strong late-game elements. Needless to say, it looks best on paper, and our limited testing has lead to us throwing it on the backburner untill there's more money in our coffers.

[gnat]

Which of the following do you guys prefer? loxodon hierarch or kitchen finks.
I've been trying a one-of of both, but i'm still not sure which one to choose.

pro finks:
- cc3 = better for cb
- cc3 is better for the curve as a whole, in my opinion
- gains 2 (4) life
- most of all : survives a deed or explosives

loxodon:
- 4/4 for 4
- instant 4 lifegain
- would be the only cc4 in my list, which can fill up the gap for cb; most definitly with stronghold
- can save all the other creatures from deed/explosives

right now: loxodon seems more suitable to me

[Spare Parts]

Which of the following do you guys prefer? loxodon hierarch or kitchen finks.
I've been trying a one-of of both, but i'm still not sure which one to choose.

pro finks:
- cc3 = better for cb
- cc3 is better for the curve as a whole, in my opinion
- gains 2 (4) life
- most of all : survives a deed or explosives

loxodon:
- 4/4 for 4
- instant 4 lifegain
- would be the only cc4 in my list, which can fill up the gap for cb; most definitly with stronghold
- can save all the other creatures from deed/explosives

right now: loxodon seems more suitable to meCard you are looking for is probably Darkheart Sliver.

Why neither Finks nor Elephant?
Finks gains 2 life. Against Burn he won't get killed, thus will never be recurred, which means that there won't be recursion. Every time I casted Kitchen Finks it gained 2 life and my opponent just burned me to death.
Loxodon Hierarch has a huge body, which is a bonus, and also is a 4cc card - but randomly having one 4cc in the deck and hoping to find it when neccesary feels quite awkward, and against decks where you actually need 4cc card for CB, you don't really need Hierarch. And situation "in response to your FoF I will Intuition for Hierarch and put it on top with Stronghold or Brainstorm" won't come up more often then once in a million games.

Honestly, Darkheart Sliver really is the best alternative. Not just cheapest of them, it even has a "0: sacrifice" for better recursion and 2cc for CB.

[ebbitten]

+ darkheart is actually decent vs ichorid

[Hanni]

Wouldn't Nimble Mongoose be better vs burn? Or faster aggro? Darkheart Sliver is 2cc for a 2/2. He gains you life, but a recurring lifegain card just sounds slow for what it's needed for. If you're worried about taking too much damage, it would simply be better to just prevent it. Mongoose puts on a clock vs burn (and combo), while being an early blocker as well as an obstacle for opposing aggro strategies.

Sideboard
+4 Nimble Mongoose

That's going to help you alot more overall.

[landstill101]

Wouldn't Nimble Mongoose be better vs burn? Or faster aggro? Darkheart Sliver is 2cc for a 2/2. He gains you life, but a recurring lifegain card just sounds slow for what it's needed for. If you're worried about taking too much damage, it would simply be better to just prevent it. Mongoose puts on a clock vs burn (and combo), while being an early blocker as well as an obstacle for opposing aggro strategies.

Sideboard
+4 Nimble Mongoose

That's going to help you alot more overall.

Not even close, this just changes the deck to a threshold deck which has already be argued about with mental, Having a nimble mongoose in a deck that doesn't get threshold before turn 6 at the earliest is completly worthless. All mongoose does is block once and dies, which in my opinion i'll just play goyf and not have it die or atleast make them waste 2 cards for one. The reason we are talking life gain is because burn decks BURN THE DOME which mongoose can not prevent and is actually worse sometimes because you can't swords it to gain life. If you want something, you play darkheart sliver. its cheap, it comes out fast to help block, and for recursion its only 5 total instead of 7(heriarch) which is really easy to get 5 if played right. Here is my breakdown of the cards.

Kitchen fink:
costs 3( a turn to slow)
gains only 2 life(least amount of life of them all)
can't put itself in graveyard to recursion(completly horrible with the strat of deck)
3/2 body(its ok but really not that significant)

Loxodon heirarch:
costs 4(2 turns to slow)
gains 4 life(pretty good)
costs 2 to sac for recursion(adds 2 more turns before recurision can happen)
4/4 body(pretty good size, will survive many things.)

darkheart sliver:
costs 2(really fast for burn decks)
gains 3 life(good enough)
costs 0 to cast(very quick)
2/2 body(pretty good for a 2cc)

All in all with the theme of the deck darkheart sliver is just cheap enough and enough life gain that the recursion is a viable stategy against aggro decks.

[godryk]

Loxodon Hierarch is inviable for recursion, I mean, you need 3+4+2=9 multicoloured mana for it. I've tested Dark-Heart Sliver and it's nice.

Another problematic matchup: Tempo Thresh. I tested some games yesterday against UGR Tempo Threshold with SB Magus of the Moon (WTF) and I got severly crushed. I lost two games to Magus of the Mon when tapped or with no FoW available. CB was nice against them, but I may not have played properly as I lost a pair of games with Deed in hand, trying to get control with CB+Shackles while he was gaining tempo (e.g. by Stiffling Ruins ability). But anyway, I got the feeling this was a bad matchup.

I'm really disappointed with Counterspell. It's nice in the late game to counter topdeck bombs, but this deck has more problems in the early game (or at least me when playing the deck). I'm even considering Confidant and Ponder...

[landstill101]

Loxodon Hierarch is inviable for recursion, I mean, you need 3+4+2=9 multicoloured mana for it. I've tested Dark-Heart Sliver and it's nice.

Another problematic matchup: Tempo Thresh. I tested some games yesterday against UGR Tempo Threshold with SB Magus of the Moon (WTF) and I got severly crushed. I lost two games to Magus of the Mon when tapped or with no FoW available. CB was nice against them, but I may not have played properly as I lost a pair of games with Deed in hand, trying to get control with CB+Shackles while he was gaining tempo (e.g. by Stiffling Ruins ability). But anyway, I got the feeling this was a bad matchup.

I'm really disappointed with Counterspell. It's nice in the late game to counter topdeck bombs, but this deck has more problems in the early game (or at least me when playing the deck). I'm even considering Confidant and Ponder...

The one thing about threshold decks that I have found out in the past is that dropping a deed and letting it sit is never a problem. Game one they don't have an answer, and game 2 and 3 if they grip it, it keeps your shackles and countertops on board longer. In my experience with tempo threshold has been very good, and really if he is gonna play the inferior magus then he is making it easier on you, just save an stp or counter for it and you should be fine, against threshold, you should never tap out anywaze or your a nub. This matchup is actually where explosives shines, because explosives for 1 and a shackles on board is usually game.

Ive not had a single problem with counterspell. The deck only has problem early games against red burn aggro decks which is why darkheart is being tested. You've got swords force and byt turn 3 you can drop deed to wipe or shackles to steal, all in all you shoul be fine.

Puting ponder in the deck, you might as well play threshold, because your taking out disruptions for more draw, which is thresholds thing and not this, this deck plays powerful spells and powerful engines, not the insanely crazy consistency of threshold. The deck has answers to anything anyone plays, if they play junk, you blow it up.

confidant ====== Horrible. There are way way way to many 3 casters in the deck to play this card, you will take way to much damage than its worth. I have not officially tested this, but I have stolen confidants with shackles and just killed it a turn later because I hated the life loss,(but it is great with top out.)

You are right though with loxodon as I kina mentioned in my post, it costs way way too much, just stick to the darkheart sliver.

[godryk]

Well, Ponder an Confidant just were some suggestions after a testing night, you know, you sometimes loose with a deck and want to change the whole deck... afterwards you can analyze the results.

Anyway, I know I'm not supossed to stay tapped and that adding white mana to the pool for swording a Magus is cool, but sometimes you have to get tapped and sometimes you don't have swords in hand or spend your countermagic on other stuff.. I'll keep on testing. Anyway I still think Stifle+Wasteland is a problem. It's not like this deck looses to Wasteland (searching Loam solves that), it's the combination of both of them which fucked me last night. Bad news if you have 1-2 lands by turn five against a tempo deck... :tongue: Maybe just a bad night... Keep on testing....

[Misplayer]

Just wanted to chime in about Confidant. I mentioned earlier that I dropped the 3 Counterspells for 3 Bob and they have straight up won me games. Many games. I have also never missed Counterspell. In theory Bob is bad with all the 3cc cards the deck runs, but in practice you protect him if you have Top out, and without Top you let them waste their removal/counters on him and then drop a fat Goyf (most players will not let a Confidant sit on the table if they can do anything about it). Late game he's a house because you have Top out by then and you can often recur him. He's worked for me, but he may not work for you and that's cool too.

[landstill101]

Played the deck last night(with tog in it) and took first place going 3-1 in swiss and winning it all in playoffs(duh).
I played against:
John W. - black land destruction
Well to explain this matchup, he plays a black deck with all land destruction and negator and thats it, and well I beat him game 1, he beat me game 2 andwell for game three, he didn't use a single land descruction, I used my intuition to get loam engine, and he drops a negator and don't see a single removal for 5 turns and lose horrible with bad luck.
games 0-1 matches 1-2

Justin S. - Affinity(with maindeck needles)
This matchup was easy, first game he didn't know I played deed, soo it went quick, second game I used explosives to get rid of land and walked all over him with a stolen ravager.
games 1-1 matches 3-2

Ryan K. - mono black control
Well this matchup was easy, I didn't play a single creature both games, just shackles to easily take the win, but it was a pain because most of his creatures had pro white, but explosives for 2 hit every creature in his deck.
games 2-1 matches 5-2

Justin A. - Death and taxes
First game I lost because I went down to 6 and kept a hand with one land and he drops a port.... dam..... second game was pretty dominant on my part just doing the usual until the end where he made a huge play mistake. im at 5 life with 5 islands and a shackles, he has a serra avenger with a jitte on it and 2 counters, he swings and then I say ok, he says removes a counter and I say in response take it, he says ok, with out saying that the damage was on the stack when remove, and I get the worthless avenger(because I can't use jitte) and then I drop down a goyf next turn and draw into 2 counters and kill him 3 turns later. At this time there is 7 mins left in the round, we start playing I keep a hand with 2 tropical island and a bayou, 2 goyfs, a deed, and a brainstorm, he goes crazy with vial, vialing in avenger, playing one and bringing in grunt, to put me to 5, I deed with 1 minute left then drop a goyf, he says go and I drop tog,and attack for 3. Time ends. Next turn I play loam and attack for 5. On my last turn, He has no creatures in play and I have a tog and a goyf, I dredge for draw and play it to bring in 3 lands discard them and then play top, I dredge for that draw and play it and then discard again making tog a 7/8 right now and goyf a 4/5. I swing in with the goyf and tog and say while damage on remove the 3 lands and the loam to give him 2 more and win. Very hectic game.
games 3-1 matches 7-3

playoffs
First match was was prob against the best deck I played all night which was gainst:
Bobby K. - 4c countertop threshold
First game I get countertop down early and win no prob, second game, he gets down 3 mongooses early and i'm sitting with 2 swords and a shackles in hand and lose miserably. Last game we both get counter balance out, and he get top a couple of turns later, he is getting come tempo and krosan grips my balance, but isn't drawing a creature to win, I draw an explosives and play it for 2(this is turn 10ish). He has 2 needles on board naming stronghold and deed, and countertop, all I have it stronghold and ruins, a shackles and a bunch of lands(with about everything I need in graveyard. Luckily for me and actually game winning play, he didn't have a second blue card for force, only had 4 mana and didn't have a 2cc on top, yes I was very lucky. I blow it then bring it back next turn and blow for 1, then start bringing back eternal witness to put my countertop online and win the game.
games 4-1 matches 9-4

Last match was somehow against Ryan K. again with his mono black aggro because he somehow made playoffs with some bad play mistakes on other ppls parts and got to play the death and taxes player when Ryan's deck has 12 creatures that have pro white. lol. It ended the same way as last time to give me first play and 30 store credit.
games 5-1 matches 11-4

The deck has now won me 4 tournies in a row that I have played it and officially I have been on a winning streak and won the last 5(one week I played a friend version of enchantress) To officially put me 5th in the state of ohio and hopefully 4 soon.

[spirit of the wretch]

Just wanted to chime in about Confidant. I mentioned earlier that I dropped the 3 Counterspells for 3 Bob and they have straight up won me games. Many games. I have also never missed Counterspell. In theory Bob is bad with all the 3cc cards the deck runs, but in practice you protect him if you have Top out, and without Top you let them waste their removal/counters on him and then drop a fat Goyf (most players will not let a Confidant sit on the table if they can do anything about it). Late game he's a house because you have Top out by then and you can often recur him. He's worked for me, but he may not work for you and that's cool too.

That's what I suggested earlier in this thread but Confidant hasn't gotten much love. I just want to point out some of his positive effects:
- Blocks and kills every Goblin
- Alternative Wincondition (extirpate your Goyfs sucks)
- Draws Counterspells/Removal/Burn
- Cardadvantage

The only problem I had so far at tournaments with Bob over Counterspell is, that he isn't blue so my current build only runs 16 cards for Force (which is enough but not very much).

[nitewolf9]

Justin S. - Affinity(with maindeck needles)
This matchup was easy, first game he didn't know I played deed, soo it went quick, second game I used explosives to get rid of land and walked all over him with a stolen ravager.
games 1-1 matches 3-2



FYI, explosives destroys non-land permanents.

[BreathWeapon]

FYI, explosives destroys non-land permanents.

It still destroys 0cc artifacts, and the lands count as 0cc artifacts, if I'm not mistaken.

[Nihil Credo]

It still destroys 0cc artifacts, and the lands count as 0cc artifacts, if I'm not mistaken.
"Non-land" means exactly that.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Only Deed and Punishment hit the artifact lands, Nihil is right. EE cannot.

[gnat]

darkheart sliver:
costs 2(really fast for burn decks)

i'm kinda convinced darkheart is the one, but I'm finding the sentence above a bit strange. as a 1-of chances of having it in hand to cast it on turn 2 are very small. most of the time it becomes available after playing intuition, so turn 5 (3+2 mana, either both on turn 5 or 3 in turn 4 and cast turn 5). still that's not awfully bad, since you can stall with counters and counterbalance..

[landstill101]

i'm kinda convinced darkheart is the one, but I'm finding the sentence above a bit strange. as a 1-of chances of having it in hand to cast it on turn 2 are very small. most of the time it becomes available after playing intuition, so turn 5 (3+2 mana, either both on turn 5 or 3 in turn 4 and cast turn 5). still that's not awfully bad, since you can stall with counters and counterbalance..

I'm just talking about the converted mana cost of the spell not that actual spell cost of it, which I don't play a one of, if burn aggro decks become more noticable, I put in 3 in the side. and yes with intuition it takes a couple of more turns but maybe not.

[landstill101]

lol well I guess u guys r right with E.E. Well its my play mistake and his for not catching it. Not sure what I was thinking, I knew that explosives didn't hit manlands, lol, wasn't really paying attention, eating pizza during the match.

[georgjorge]

Just throwing something out there from the Eventide spoils:

Worm Harvest
2{bg}{bg}{bg}
Sorcery
Put a 1/1 black and green Worm creature token into play for each land card in your graveyard.
Retrace (You may play this card from your graveyard by discarding a land card in addition to paying its other costs.)

Could this be a finisher that doubles as a defense against creature beats in this deck ? It sucks with Deed, but recurring creature hordes seem nice to me (though I don't know how often that deck reaches five mana in a reasonable time).

[nitewolf9]

Worm harvest doesn't really do enough to warrent its cost. It doesn't help you reach the late game, and at that point for 5 mana I think I'd rather have something like haunting echoes.

...or Spiritmonger.

[landstill101]

Just throwing something out there from the Eventide spoils:

Worm Harvest
2{bg}{bg}{bg}
Sorcery
Put a 1/1 black and green Worm creature token into play for each land card in your graveyard.
Retrace (You may play this card from your graveyard by discarding a land card in addition to paying its other costs.)

Could this be a finisher that doubles as a defense against creature beats in this deck ? It sucks with Deed, but recurring creature hordes seem nice to me (though I don't know how often that deck reaches five mana in a reasonable time).

Ehh really this deck doesn't have that many lands in the graveyard, yea its pretty cool with loam, but this is deffinitly more of a aggro loam card, You might as well play tog, its a better finisher and doesn't die to deed soo easily.

Just something to talk about, what has people been using for combinations of deed and explosives.. For a while I was using 4 deed and 1 explosives, but Although I love deed and have not been sad for having 4 of them, I've always wished to have more explosives, just because the recursion of explosives and ruins has won me so many games I can't count, right now my list has 3 deeds and 2 explosives, and it seems to fit alot better.

Also to keep the thread going for a couple of weeks, Was wondering if anyone has found any new sideboard items that have been helpful in certain matchups. As i've mentioned before, my hardest matchups are combo, which is why I have 4 thoughtsiezes in the board, which in my opinion have helped out alot but have thought of maybe changing it to meddling mage, but the combo in my meta just disapeared soo, I haven't been able to test it much, this is what my sideboard looks like right now.

Unknown meta:
4 leyline of the void/ crypt(still testing which one I like better)
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 krosan grip
4 Thoughtsieze

[Hanni]

I'm not sure why Gigapede isn't in here.

*Gigapede gives you a recurrable 5cc with Stronghold for Counterbalance, which can answer Force of Will.

*Gigapede is recurrable on his own, which adds additional resilience to the deck in matchups where the engines get attacked.

*Gigapede is untargetable, which gives you a huge edge vs opposing Shackles, StP, and the like.

*Gigapede is out of EE range and out of your normal Deed range.

*Gigapede gives you another win condition, which is extremely important for this deck to fix. Extirpate screws you pretty bad.

*At 6/1, Gigapede can often break a Goyf stalemate.

*Gigapede is extremely good at slipping through CounterTop locks.

*3GG is basically the same as 2BG + Stronghold, even though it can't be split up like recur + Goyf.

ITF

Lands (20)
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Academy Ruins

Creatures (6)
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Eternal Witness
1 Gigapede

Spells (34)
4 Brainstorm
4 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Vedalken Shackles

I dropped the land count down to 20, which should be more than fine hitting 3 lands for Intuition with Brainstorm and Top, where Loam is going to supply the rest.

I cut a Tundra for a singleton Forest, too. It might look dumb on paper, but it's often a really strong play when you fetch it with Intuition (grabbing Loam). You don't want to get Wastelocked out of green because that shuts you off from Loam (and Goyf). With 8 fetchlands, hitting white for StP shouldn't be a problem, especially when you only run 4 MD white spells. I'd really like to squeeze another basic Island in here, but I don't see how I'd fit it right now.

Also, for the SB, I'd much rather run a playset of Extirpates over a playset of Leylines. Extirpate is so rediculously good against so much of the format, especially in a control deck. StP has dysnergy with it, which is unfortunate, but that isn't a strong enough reason to not run it IMO.

[Mister Agent]

I'm not sure why Gigapede isn't in here.

*Gigapede gives you a recurrable 5cc with Stronghold for Counterbalance, which can answer Force of Will.

*Gigapede is recurrable on his own, which adds additional resilience to the deck in matchups where the engines get attacked.

*Gigapede is untargetable, which gives you a huge edge vs opposing Shackles, StP, and the like.

*Gigapede is out of EE range and out of your normal Deed range.

*Gigapede gives you another win condition, which is extremely important for this deck to fix. Extirpate screws you pretty bad.

*At 6/1, Gigapede can often break a Goyf stalemate.

*Gigapede is extremely good at slipping through CounterTop locks.

*3GG is basically the same as 2BG + Stronghold, even though it can't be split up like recur + Goyf.

ITF

Lands (20)
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Academy Ruins

Creatures (6)
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Eternal Witness
1 Gigapede

Spells (34)
4 Brainstorm
4 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Vedalken Shackles

I dropped the land count down to 20, which should be more than fine hitting 3 lands for Intuition with Brainstorm and Top, where Loam is going to supply the rest.

I cut a Tundra for a singleton Forest, too. It might look dumb on paper, but it's often a really strong play when you fetch it with Intuition (grabbing Loam). You don't want to get Wastelocked out of green because that shuts you off from Loam (and Goyf). With 8 fetchlands, hitting white for StP shouldn't be a problem, especially when you only run 4 MD white spells. I'd really like to squeeze another basic Island in here, but I don't see how I'd fit it right now.

Also, for the SB, I'd much rather run a playset of Extirpates over a playset of Leylines. Extirpate is so rediculously good against so much of the format, especially in a control deck. StP has dysnergy with it, which is unfortunate, but that isn't a strong enough reason to not run it IMO.

I don't think the deck is called "its the fear" anymore if your not going to run pyschatog. Just saying.

As well as your going to have one heck of a time casting a double green threat in a four color manabase. Also for the fact you can't pitch gigapede to force of will like you can with tog which is a huge setback in the development of this deck.

[Hanni]

I don't think the deck is called "its the fear" anymore if your not going to run pyschatog. Just saying.

It's Daves deck, he named it, he dropped Tog. He's got the copyright to the title, not you. In my Intuition.dec version (Intuition Thresh), I do run 1 Tog. It just doesn't really fit in here though, unless you wanna drop the Witness.


As well as your going to have one heck of a time casting a double green threat in a four color manabase. Also for the fact you can't pitch gigapede to force of will like you can with tog which is a huge setback in the development of this deck.

Can't the same be said about Eternal Witness? Additionally, double green is very easy to cast after you get Loam.

1 extra blue spell for FoW isn't a huge impact and 19 blue spells with the current draw package is enough to sufficiently run FoW. I like to keep it at 20+ but 19 still works.

---

Another thing... in the list I posted, I'd drop 1 StP for 1 Shriekmaw. The lone Shriekmaw is pretty cool, allowing you to recur spot removal via Stronghold (rather than Ruins). At 5cc, it's also nice to use with Counterbalance for answering FoW. Plus, it gives you an additional beater and win condition should you need it.

[Citrus-God]

I'm not sure why Gigapede isn't in here.

*Gigapede gives you a recurrable 5cc with Stronghold for Counterbalance, which can answer Force of Will.

How many 5c cards do I have to worry about outside of FoW? Rout? Haunting Echoes?


*Gigapede is recurrable on his own, which adds additional resilience to the deck in matchups where the engines get attacked.


Great... the engine gets attacked... sadly, that engine is the Graveyard.


*Gigapede is untargetable, which gives you a huge edge vs opposing Shackles, StP, and the like.

And doesn't have trample...


*Gigapede is out of EE range and out of your normal Deed range.

And is only a good finisher in all your good match-ups. Gigapede would be trash compared to Witness against a deck like Vial Goblins.


*Gigapede gives you another win condition, which is extremely important for this deck to fix. Extirpate screws you pretty bad.

You can win by decking the opposing player using Academy Ruins.


*At 6/1, Gigapede can often break a Goyf stalemate.

I don't think ITF cares much about Goyf stalemates, because it can break them anytime it wants assuming Intuition resolves.


*Gigapede is extremely good at slipping through CounterTop locks.

This I will admit is quite good, but good players will leave FoW on top after that.


I dropped the land count down to 20, which should be more than fine hitting 3 lands for Intuition with Brainstorm and Top, where Loam is going to supply the rest.

What if Intuition doesn't resolve? I'm sorry, I never advocated 21 Lands in this deck. 22 is the bare minimum for me, but 23 Lands is what I would prefer.

[Mister Agent]

It's Daves deck, he named it, he dropped Tog. He's got the copyright to the title, not you.

It's just an opinion of mine and nothing more.




Can't the same be said about Eternal Witness? Additionally, double green is very easy to cast after you get Loam.

Eternal witness gives the deck more utility through it's intuition engine. While gigapede does not provide any sort of utility except at being a good beatstick. Running gigapede in its the fear is like saying that we should run hoofprints in UWb landstill.

I also agree with anti-american 23 lands should be a preferance in here since you still want to play control.

[landstill101]

Hanni, Really it doesn't matter if he changes the deck. ITF is the version with tog, hands down, and until he wins another big tourny with a new list for him to change it, the ITF will be with tog, you must have read his first post right, the second list is the one that won a big tourny to give his list its fame, not the second.

Also since I'm talking to just your post, Gig is not right, for 2 HUGE reasons.
First reason, he costs 5 just to die to a mog fanatic, And usually by the time you can play the gig, you have the ability to make goyf a 6/7 which is bigger than gig.

second reason, you have to discard a card to put him into your hand, not on top of the library to help with countertop or just replacing the top card of your library, Discarding a card, now most game when I start recuring creatures, I don't have 7 cards in hand. I have 3 maybe 4 if I'm lucky and which all 3 of those are a combination of STP, counterspells and creatures, I 'm not gonna discard them just to get a creature I don't need.

You have already brought up gig and it was shut down the last time by everyone here and it is being shut down once again.

[Volt]

.

[diffy]

I'm pretty sure this deck should be running a Wasteland. Intuition for LftL + Wasteland + whatever, and proceed to pwn target control deck.

The Wasteland pile is rather redundant as a resolved Intuition will nearly always spell 'pwn target control deck' regardless of what you get - an active engine that gives you a threat a turn alongside some other card advantage (Loam) is pretty harsh on any control deck as they can't handle your stuff eternally.
If you still want to play the deck with a Waste-lock Intuition pile, you should play a singleton Lonely Sandbar to accompany it because, to destroy a land per turn, you have to dredge Loam every turn which means that you aren't drawing any real cards - you aren't advancing your own game state, you're just hindering your opponent. By doing this, you give your opponent plenty of time to draw into relevant things (basics or stuff which will allow him to recover once you've finished off his lands) while you stagnate meaning that after you've finished Waste-locking him, he'll actually be in the better position as he just has just drawn an additional N cards (where N is the number of non-basic lands he had in play). Having the additional draw from Sandbar each turn solves this problem rather easily, the downside being that Sandbar is a rather terrible land in a 3-4c deck so that you have to play it in a spell slot.

[Volt]

.

[Deep6er]

No, DiF is right. It's the reason I chose not to play a Wasteland from the beginning. For all those turns that you're dredging and not drawing/playing a land, you're effectively time-walking your opponent into drawing the relevant cards he's waiting for. Not a good idea. The only way I would play Wastelands is if I was going to play 3+. That way, you can intersperse the land destruction with actual card drawing. That's why dedicated Loam decks can use Wasteland. But not It's the Fear.

@landstill101: Are you serious? Did you read my report? Psychatog has NEVER been useful. Even in testing. It was ALWAYS god-awful. Also, what's the deal with your hate on my recent list? You know, the one that's performing better than the list that I played at the tournament? Turns out, that after playing it at the tournament, I wanted to make changes, and, since there haven't been big tournaments for me to win, I haven't been able to show the world how good the new list is. I understand that you think that Psychatog is good or something (which he isn't, at least not in this deck), but seriously, how about you cut some slack to the guys who build, played, and won with the deck?

@Agent Funk: Actually, if you read my report, I named it It's the Fear because of Counterbalance. Not Psychatog. I have hated that guy's inclusion in this deck from the beginning.

[Volt]

.

[Mister Agent]

@Dave: Ah okay that actually makes a ton of sense then.

As for mogg fanatic, ITF doesn't care about any creature that's on the opposing side since ITF has a thousand answers to the large spectrum of creatures in legacy.

I also agree that dropping wasteland is a good way to maintain solid mechanics. ITF doesn't need to utilitize wasteland considering most of the time it's probably going to sit out in the open. Also dredging for three to bring back wasteland just to destroy a non-basic land isn't exactly back breaking.

Besides you also run counterbalance which totally negates the utility function of wasteland.

[Illissius]

Dust Bowl with Loam only makes you skip every third draw.

[Deep6er]

Actually, I DID consider Dust Bowl. The reason I decided against it was because of the mana constraints. By the time I had enough mana to use Dust Bowl (and leave mana open in order to use Top to counter spells), it would be a wash because I was winning already. It definitely felt like a win-more card.

@Volt: Honestly? Rarely. A great deal of my Intuitions are cards that are backbreaking to my opponent. Sometimes it's Witness, Stronghold, Shackles/Deed. Other times, I'll fetch up the Loam pile. But more often than not, I don't fetch Loam with Intuition. That's why I don't like the Wasteland. I'll end up rarely using it.

"Gordy" is Tosh, right? The guy who went 3-2? What did he lose to?

[Volt]

.

[Deep6er]

Yeah, but a lot of those lack the cards that It's the Fear plays in order to continue playing magic under an opposing Counterbalance. VoroshStill is one of the few decks (like TEC) to play cards at three, AND Counterbalance. While you could definitely lose to those decks, I actually like my chances against some of them quite a bit.

Additionally, boo on registration errors. Those are beatings. Always.

[Tosh]

Here's the list I played:


// Lands
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
3 [U] Tropical Island
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [B] Tundra
3 [A] Underground Sea
1 [CS] Snow-Covered Island
1 [REW] Wasteland
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [CS] Snow-Covered Forest

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [LRW] Shriekmaw

// Spells
4 [TE] Intuition
4 [7E] Counterspell
4 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
3 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [SC] Stifle
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [ON] Gigapede
SB: 3 [IN] Dueling Grounds

Round 1: Maverick676 (Nourishing Lich: Weird Level Blue variant) [1-0]
G1: Recurring EE with counter-top wins this game pretty handily (although I was at 17 and he 18, the game was over).
I board in LotV, Gigapede, and KGrips.
G2: Similar to above, I hard cast a LotV a couple turns in. He drops a Gigapede ~t10 and I top my Gigapede that's been sitting there for a while and play it. He scoops.

Round 2: quicksilver (Survival) [1-1]
Turns out I wrote down "counterspell" instead of "counterbalance" so my list had 7 counterspells... I receive a game loss.
Side note: Bardo's next to me but across the table and he also got a game loss for putting the cards from activating his top into his hand.
G2: This game gets really close and I play aggro and get him down to 1 when he EOT Survivals for Magus of the Moon. The previous turn he played an Eternal Witness to return Shriekmaw. He top decks a fetch. He floats a black and plays the Magus (I've got no cards in hand, so no counters) then Evokes Shriekmaw. I scoop.

Round 3: tatt2dfreak (Mono G Aggro) [2-1]
G1: I don't remember this game too much, I stabilize at 4 with Counter-Top.
I board in Dueling Grounds.
G2: Needless to say, he had no chance against my Dueling Grounds, 2x Vedalken Shackles, and Counter-Top.

Round 4: Yawgmoth (GBW Rock) [3-1]
He told me to put in the Wasteland the night before and so I made room for it. We tested it out and it did well so I decided to keep it in.
G1: Wasteland lock wins the game.
G2: He beats in with a Doran and Bob to finish me off. Nothing too spectacular this game.
G3: I Wasteland a couple of lands and he gets stuck on 2 lands. I Swords a Bob and a 'Goyf. He Extirpates my LftL to stop the wasteland lock but it's too late.

Round 5: Brent (Psychotog) [3-2]
G1: Really long game. Near the end of the game, I'm at 3 and have 2x Shackles and EE for 3 on the board. He gets an EE for 3 on the board and EOT pops it. He drops a 'Goyf and I've got a hand full of land so it gets through for the win. He had 5 cards in library when he won.
G2: Goes to time and we draw.

Round 6: Krieger (Ichorid) [3-3]
Copied from his report so it's from his perspective. Why should I rewrite it :D
G1: I am on the draw and have a fairly good hand. I also knew he was playing something with counterbalance in it. He plays top turn 1. My turn LED, LED then play coliseum and break both LEDs to activate coliseum this gets me 1 Narcomeoba and a few Ichorids into the graveyard. Ichorids come back next turn and I attempt reanimate sage but he Forces I have another Dread Return so I use the tokens I got from bridge and win shortly after that with like a hundred Ichorids/ zombies.
**I board in Leyline of the Void, Tormod's Crypt, and Dueling Grounds
G2: I keep a slower hand that has answers to hate cards. He plays a Dueling Grounds that I answer with Ray of Revelation. Later he gets a Leyline of the Void to stick. We play draw go for a while until I get coliseum and use it to dig for answers. I find double Putrid Imp and need a turn cast them both. I get him to seven lives and then I get back Ichorid and swing for the win.

Props:
Virginians for coming all the way over.
Volt for setting it up.
Volt for winning.

Slops:
Not having someone else check my deck list.
Not having enough time to beat Psychotog in G2 and G3...

Ideas:
I never played Pernicious Deed. Not once. The recurring EE was just plain better in almost all situations. I'm thinking about moving it to the sideboard or taking out black entirely (running Gigapede in the main which can replace the win-con recursion).
I played once against Counter-Top (Maverick676) and I still won through it. EE is definitely an all-star against opposing Counter-Top decks.

[Deep6er]

Dueling Grounds? Really? What for?

Also, no Eternal Witness? She is so amazing in this deck.

Just curious about these.

[Tosh]

I put the Dueling Grounds in because I saw a ~3-4 Goblins and expected several other random aggro decks. I was considering Propaganda although Dueling Grounds is just as effective if they have 4 lands and if they have 2 (2 wouldn't be hard to get so I'm not going to assume that Propaganda would let only 1 creature attack). I should probably also mention playing against Yawgmoth with Goblins the day before in the precursor tournament and lost horribly to it. Game 2 I had 3 Tarmogoys, 2 Swords to Plowshares, and a Pernicious Deed and still lost (he had 3x Lackey [swords on 2 of them, 'Goyf to block the other], 2x Piledriver [one had to be traded for my 2nd 'Goyf, other was post-deed], and 2x Ringleader [dropped 2 which hit 3 & 2 gobs incl. Weirding. deeded these away and lost a 'Goyf to it] and my 3rd 'Goyf was Weirding'd)

I took out the Eternal Witness because it was unnecessary. Any time I actually used Eternal Witness I had already won the game and it's too mana intensive to bring back relevant targets in time to make a difference (Intuition, Stronghold, Witness, <target>. That's spread over 3-4 turns which is a bit too slow for my liking).

[Deep6er]

I heartily disagree with your "win-more" assessment of Eternal Witness. Eternal Witness + Stronghold presents a conundrum to your opponent. If he attacks, he's not going to do any real damage, and he guarantees you being able to get the most important card out of your graveyard.

Second, Eternal Witness makes for great backup plays. Plan went wrong? Eternal Witness can fix it by getting back whatever part of the plan went wrong. That card is incredibly good in this deck.

Also, I think that Blast is better than Dueling Grounds. One, it allows you to have more control over the early game, so that he can't ever build up a massive army. Second, it's more versatile. Blast helps out against Imperial Painter, Dragon Stompy, and Burn.

[landstill101]

Round 2: quicksilver (Survival) [1-1]
Turns out I wrote down "counterspell" instead of "counterbalance" so my list had 7 counterspells... I receive a game loss. I didn't know what he was playing so I didn't board.
Side note: Bardo's next to me but across the table and he also got a game loss for putting the cards from activating his top into his hand.
G2: This game gets really close and I play aggro and get him down to 1 when he EOT Survivals for Magus of the Moon. The previous turn he played an Eternal Witness to return Shriekmaw. He top decks a fetch. He floats a black and plays the Magus (I've got no cards in hand, so no counters) then Evokes Shriekmaw. I scoop.



One thing just to clarify, for the first game, did you play it or was it just an instant game loss, because if it was, it was lucky you didn't side in or it was another instant game loss. according to the rules You can not side in if the first game was a game loss due to tardiness forgetting to deside or any other instant loss before the games starts due to rules. And also would you be able to explain more on what happend to Bardo, or maybe Bardo could come on and explain. From what you said I don't see anything wrong, and since I play countertop as well I don't want to make the same mistake.

[landstill101]

Last friday I played a tourny with 21 ppl I think to be exact. I went 4-0-1 and then went 2-0-1 in playoffs to draw for first place. I'm to lazy to write a report, I've written enough that many of the matches I could just cut and paste.

The one matchup which I have never faced before was 9 land stompy. Which surprisingly tog shined in this matchup. Mainly becuase he got dropped down and just blocked for as many turns as I needed untill I got shackles which against 9 land stompy means win every time.

[Tosh]

One thing just to clarify, for the first game, did you play it or was it just an instant game loss, because if it was, it was lucky you didn't side in or it was another instant game loss. according to the rules You can not side in if the first game was a game loss due to tardiness forgetting to deside or any other instant loss before the games starts due to rules. And also would you be able to explain more on what happend to Bardo, or maybe Bardo could come on and explain. From what you said I don't see anything wrong, and since I play countertop as well I don't want to make the same mistake.

It was an instant game loss, we presented our decks but never got to cutting them when I received the game loss. I thought that after game losses you get to sideboard so I guess it is a good thing I didn't :D (changed my report to omit that). Also, the judge put the list face up right in front of me and in his report, quicksliver said that he saw exactly what I was playing so boo to the judge.

From what I could tell, Bardo had the win on the table against Meathooks (the player had never heard of the Source so idk) and he topped... eot I think. He had his hand in his right and topped with his left and I believe he brought them together on accident. His opponent called the judge and Bardo admitted to accidentally putting them into his hand. I guess he got excited and/or thought it was a Brainstorm.


I heartily disagree with your "win-more" assessment of Eternal Witness. Eternal Witness + Stronghold presents a conundrum to your opponent. If he attacks, he's not going to do any real damage, and he guarantees you being able to get the most important card out of your graveyard.

Although I've only been playing the deck for about 3-4 weeks, I made that decision based on experience. I may end up putting him back in if he is as good as you say he is if I continue to play the deck.


Also, I think that Blast is better than Dueling Grounds. One, it allows you to have more control over the early game, so that he can't ever build up a massive army. Second, it's more versatile. Blast helps out against Imperial Painter, Dragon Stompy, and Burn.

You may be right here, but there was no Imperial Painter, no Dragon Stompy, and Counter-Top beats burn anyway. Blasts don't do very much against Ichorid while the Dueling Grounds do help a little. There were 3+ Ichorid decks that I saw.

[Deep6er]

I definitely urge you to continue testing Witness, she's been nothing but good for me.

@Dueling Grounds: Your plan against Ichorid is to use Leyline and then protect it. Dueling Grounds is likely to be pretty low on their list of "cards that I need to get off the table in order to win the game". Certainly true that IN THAT MATCHUP, Dueling Grounds is better than Blasts, but as a whole, I would argue that Blasts are more useful than Dueling Grounds.

[Bardo]

And also would you be able to explain more on what happend to Bardo, or maybe Bardo could come on and explain. From what you said I don't see anything wrong, and since I play countertop as well I don't want to make the same mistake.
I have the whole thing detailed in my tournament report which should be posted on Thursday, Friday at the latest. I don't want to derail this thread, so I'll try to make this quick. My opponent was at 1; I was at 16. He had a Plated Sliver or some shit opposing my 3/3 Goose and 4/5 Goyf. I was going to win that turn and was really stoked that the game was in hand but got careless when I played the Top from my hand and spun it. Anyway, you can read about the situation in the report, which should be up in a day or two.


He had his hand in his right and topped with his left and I believe he brought them together on accident. His opponent called the judge and Bardo admitted to accidentally putting them into his hand. I guess he got excited and/or thought it was a Brainstorm.

That isn't what happened. The Top cards were in my left hand; my hand cards were in my right. They never touched, but it must have looked that way, or fishy at the least, from his side. Honestly, I think he lawyered me into a game loss; but it was a careless mistake on my part (having the two sets of cards close), and the ruling was probably correct, given the information the judge had and that I had no witnesses that the Top cards mingled never mingled with my cards in hand (we were still in game 1 and everyone was playing their matches).

Let's not discuss this further in this thread. Thanks. If you want, we can talk about it in the report thread.

[Lord Gibbo]

I just Want to ask you a question: Why you don't play with Psycatog?
I run it in my list and I think it's great.

It's a very good finisher and don't nead green mana, so if you don't have the green after an Extirpate on Tropical Island you can win with Atog...

Gigapede don't do this beacause of his mana cost.

[Deep6er]

Simple. I tried him and I didn't like him. He's anti-synergistic with a great deal of the strategies (Eternal Witness, Stronghold, Ruins, Tarmogoyf), and he really isn't as good as he used to be. Tarmogoyf will just outclass Psychatog because he's bigger for longer with no other restrictions.

Also, Wasteland + Extirpate? Honestly, not terrified of that. Decks that play those tend to lose to Vedalken Shackles. Even then, I can deck them. Not like I'm going to play a sub-par creature in order to shore up a matchup that I'm not afraid of.

[Lord Gibbo]

I Agree to you.
Atog is anti-Sybergic, but it's a "one tourn finisher".

I think it's a good Creature for a Deck that use LftL.

I'm testing Gigapede and I don't like it so much, why you think that a 6/1 is better than atog?

[Deep6er]

I don't like Gigapede either. The only creatures I run are Tarmogoyf and Eternal Witness.

Also, I disagree with your "one turn finisher" statement. Psychatog is only going to be a one turn finisher if you've already won the game. I'm MUCH more concerned with the events leading up to that. I don't want a creature that will let me put it away once I've won it. Tarmogoyf does that in addition to helping me get to the "I've already won the game" stage. Psychatog does NOT help in getting to that stage of the game.

[Hana, The Deadly Flower]

I'm testing this deck out and I have a few concerns with this deck.

1. My deck runs 3 colors, (b, u, g). I have 3 smothers in the main deck, do i need a 4th color (white) just for S.T.P?

2. I have 6 creatures; 1 Witness, 4 Tarmogoyf, and 1 Finisher. I thought of either having Tombstalker, Spiritmonger, or Morphling. What do you guys suggest.

This deck IMO is the best deck that can handle any types of decks out there (control/aggro/combo). Let me know what you guys think.

[Deep6er]

1. Yes, Swords is really good enough to have. It's the absolute best removal in the game.

2. You don't need a finisher. Seriously. 4 Tarmogoyf and 1 Witness are enough.

[Hanni]

Also, I disagree with your "one turn finisher" statement. Psychatog is only going to be a one turn finisher if you've already won the game.

This is not always the case. Sometimes against Goblins, you barely stabalize, let's say from something like a Deed or something. Now, Shackles could be argued to replace Tog in your list as far as controlling the game from there... but Tog can win a game you weren't necessarily winning by swinging for lethal when you otherwise wouldn't be able to swing. However, in your decklist, you don't run Wonder... so a simple Mogg Fanatic or something will waste your time with Tog.

Personally, I'd recommend at least some type of alternate win condition outside of Shackles and decking the opponent. Tog is by no means a bad option but I definitely think Gigapede offers you so much that it's silly to not run it as a 1-of. That's just my opinion though, I guess.

[Yawgmoth]

What happens when your opponent extirpates Tarmogoyf? Cry?

[Hana, The Deadly Flower]

That's why there should be a finisher just incase tog gets out.

Does anyone recommend putting in living wish?

[Deep6er]

For the love of all that is holy, do NOT add Living Wish to this deck. That's terrible.

When someone Extirpates Tarmogoyf? Not really care. Said it once, say it again: If they're playing Extirpate, likely odds on beating them with Shackles is high. Black decks don't deal with artifacts.

Reading is fundamental. Please exercise your fundamentals.

[Nihil Credo]

When someone Extirpates Tarmogoyf? Not really care. Said it once, say it again: If they're playing Extirpate, likely odds on beating them with Shackles is high. Black decks don't deal with artifacts.
Most decks that play Extirpate, and in fact most black decks in the format, also play a second colour that can deal with Shackles just fine, and often even in the form of Krosan Grip.

Yet, as a matter of fact, I do not expect ITF to lose to, say, Sui Black because of Seize->Extirpate on Goyf. Those that are the beatdown against your deck will probably prefer to bring in Needles, or nonbasic hate, or artifact/enchantment hate.

But control and midrange? Totally another matter. In fact, for most decks that play Pernicious Deed - anything from Landeed to Survival to The Rock - Extirpate from the sideboard would look like an automatic board-in, if at least to get rid of your recursive engines. And unless they're absolutely terrified of Stronghold/Witness, they're going to hit that Goyf if given the opportunity. They often do that against Threshold, why wouldn't they against ITF?

Conclusion: I -almost- join the crowd, and support 1 Unkillable And/Or Recursive Finisher of Choice in the SB (hence the "almost"), with Gigapede being the frontrunner candidate.

[Deep6er]

Granted, but the sideboarding issue is a whole other can of worms.

I haven't decided on exactly what I want to play in the board. There are only a couple of options right now. Obviously, Leyline and Grip. But after that, it get's a little bit more murky. I LIKE the two Loams in the board, and I THINK Blasts are a good idea, but I'm not permanently sold on them. Additionally, with that configuration, there is one slot left. Obviously, if you're afraid of Extirpate (which I don't think you should be) you can play the one-of here, where you argue that people will bring in the grave hate.

Additionally, the decks that play the other colors that can deal with Shackles usually have to aim those things at Counterbalance. Otherwise, they can't play Magic. That's the key thing here. There are many difficult decisions when you play against It's the Fear, and fucking up too many of those will kill you just as easily as being unable to make the right one.

Take it from me. I've been playing a deck that's been focused on using Extirpate to it's fullest potential. You know what? The card just isn't all it's cracked up to be. Sure, sometimes it's good. Of course, other times it's fucking awful because it will NEVER AFFECT THE BOARD. The fact that you MUST combo it with another card just makes the card unwieldy and difficult to use a great deal of the time. Plus, it's actually really easy to counter with Counterbalance.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

When someone Extirpates Tarmogoyf? Not really care. Said it once, say it again: If they're playing Extirpate, likely odds on beating them with Shackles is high. Black decks don't deal with artifacts.

Reading is fundamental. Please exercise your fundamentals.


Valid arguments are fundamental. Please exercise those. You know full well that almost every "black" deck in the format is supported by other colours which CAN deal with artifacts. While the game isn't over just because you've lost all four Tarmogoyfs, you should not assume that the game is over just because you have Shackles, either.


Perhaps ironically, I actually agree with you that Shackles is more useful than the current crop of possible beaters. I'm still unconvinced about StP, which leaves me almost equally doubtful of Gigapede. I love Gigapede, and I think it's a great card regardless--but The Fear is incapable of maximizing its potential. Not to mention the fact that if Goyf gets Extirpated, making an effort to cast and maintain Gigapede (with its one toughness and zero evasion) is going to slash the efficacy of the deck's strong control suite (including--and perhaps especially--Shackles) because of the high mana requirement and the need to discard a card.

I don't think that the argument ends there, however. Once Goyf goes, you have to rely on Shackles to snare beaters, yes, but your strategy also has to adapt. Deed and StP become that much more important to clear the board and allow Shackles to remain dominant. Personally, I am not comfortable with the low creature count--it just doesn't suit my playstyle. And indeed, if a strong beater comes around, my vote is to include it. But if we're just talking about a single card to beat out Extirpate, I think that we're losing focus. Once that happens, scrambling to bust out a new beater is going to compromise what is already a fairly strong alternative strategy centred around Shackles. The concern is a legitimate one, but I believe that the focus should be on strengthening Plan B, not introducing a Plan C.


Does that make sense? I hope so. I'm not convinced I was all that clear.

[Deep6er]

Riddle me this Batman; why would I have to exercise valid arguments WHEN I'VE ALREADY DONE SO. I've stated my arguments. I firmly believe that the few decks that play Extirpate (in the main), do NOT have artifact removal (in the main). Thus, the answer is simple. Rely on Shackles. Not that earth-shattering. If something bad happens, adapt. If I already went over that, then it's STILL A VALID ARGUMENT. The fact that nobody disputed it doesn't magically make it go away. It's still the strategy that I plan on using. It's also the strategy that I would encourage others to use. I'm not dodging the issue, I've made my point clear.

Thank you for agreeing with me (to a point). I don't think Gigapede is utilized effectively here, and really would like to move discussion in some other direction.

However, I am saying that the idea is TO ADAPT. Shackles becomes a forerunner in terms of game enders, and thus the strategy becomes re-centered around the idea of keeping and protecting Shackles. Should Extirpate happen, deal with it. Change plans accordingly. The deck is plenty versatile. Don't blind yourself because Tarmogoyf is so insanely good. Sometimes bad things happen. Deal.

I don't mean to come off angry, but I think this conversation is moot. "Oh NOES! IF a series of bad plays were to happen to you, then bad things would happen to you!" is not something I want to discuss until I'm blue in the face. There are contingencies for everything that happens. I can deal with that. Sure, the deck can't beat everything. I know that. Trying to come up with scenarios that point out minor flaws in the deck don't really accomplish anything.

The real way to further discussion would be to point out relevant sideboarding in situations that call for it. Plans against abundant Wastelands, Ichorids, or Combo. A control heavy metagame.

Coming up with a scenario that's difficult to accomplish in actuality and using that to say the deck is weak is poor logic.

Please stop buying meteor insurance.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

I won't litter your thread with more counters after this reply, but I do think this is relevant because you're claiming to have made an important argument that, in fact, has not been made as far as I can see. For the record, I still agree with you about your strategy if Tarmogoyf kicks the bucket. In fact, that strategy is necessary anyway, since four Tarmogoyfs aren't going to impress most decks.

In the interests of fairness, however:


Riddle me this Batman; why would I have to exercise valid arguments WHEN I'VE ALREADY DONE SO. I've stated my arguments.

You'll have to excuse me, but I've searched the ENTIRE thread and can't find any post where you do so. I do so in my last post, but sadly, I can't find a single instance where you do beyond the set of lines in question.

I can see you dismissing (rightly) Wasteland + Extirpate on Tropical Island, and what you say there could be applied to Extirpate on Tarmogoyf if you stretch your imagination a tad--but you never actually addressed that much more plausible scenario. Thirdly, you dismiss INCLUDING Extirpate but nothing more. The only attempt you made at addressing the question in question (ha!) was in the contested set of lines--which, obviously, don't count. Especially since you now claim to have made the argument (validly, no less) earlier than those lines.

Therefore, the argument was not made.

In any case, as a matter of principle, every argument you make should be valid, especially in a post with as many pages as this one. Few people are willing to scroll through a dozen pages to find whatever point you made earlier, and only I'm obsessive enough to call you on it and check for myself. I agree, it sucks, but unless you do so, these questions will keep on popping up again and again.

By the way, if you did make that argument and I missed it, then I apologize, but humbly ask that you at least PM me the passage and its location.



I firmly believe that the few decks that play Extirpate (in the main), do NOT have artifact removal (in the main). Thus, the answer is simple. Rely on Shackles.

That's NOT what you said. What you said was that black decks don't have access to artifact removal. Which means that you were making at least two base assumptions: 1.) the only decks running Extirpate are black, and 2.) the only decks running extirpate are mono-black. I can believe that's not what you intended to say, but it remains what you said, and it remains out and out wrong--and a horrendously invalid argument.



I believe you're bang-on about the rest, however. Wasteland + Extirpate on Tropical Island is much more unlikely than killing or countering a Tarmogoyf and then getting rid of it. And besides, the deck HAS to be able to deal with ineffective Goyfs anyway, since four creatures aren't usually too daunting on their own--at least until late-game recursion.

I have a real question for you, however: are you using Swords to Plowshares more on creatures that Deed and Shackles have a harder time dealing with, or on more or less anything that's threatening?

[Hanni]

My biggest beef vs Shackles is, and still is, against creatures like Mongoose and Gigapede. If I Extirpate Goyf, how do you deal? Counterbalance itself is not the best argument, considering many cards, like Deed, handle that issue. Unless you have an active Counterbalance and counter Extirpate (which the Extirpate player shoudn't be casting if they know it is going to get countered), how do you deal? You need a back-up plan. Is 1 Gigapede (read: ONE), really going to hurt the deck?

I'm honestly done giving opinions. I will agree that Tog isn't necessarily the best fit here... but if Gigapede isn't making the fit within the 75 cards, I don't think I can offer anything else relevant to this thread. Enjoy taking it in the ass to Extirpate, which IS actually played by quite alot of decks that splash black in the format.

I know for a fact that my midrange Threshold/Landstill variant LOVES that Tarmogoyf is your only win condition outside of Shackles (which does nothing to me). Recurring EE or Witness over and over can wins games too, I guess... but don't expect something that slow to answer something as fast as Threshold beats w/ recursion + CA.

[landstill101]

My biggest beef vs Shackles is, and still is, against creatures like Mongoose and Gigapede. If I Extirpate Goyf, how do you deal? Counterbalance itself is not the best argument, considering many cards, like Deed, handle that issue. Unless you have an active Counterbalance and counter Extirpate (which the Extirpate player shoudn't be casting if they know it is going to get countered), how do you deal? You need a back-up plan. Is 1 Gigapede (read: ONE), really going to hurt the deck?

I'm honestly done giving opinions. I will agree that Tog isn't necessarily the best fit here... but if Gigapede isn't making the fit within the 75 cards, I don't think I can offer anything else relevant to this thread. Enjoy taking it in the ass to Extirpate, which IS actually played by quite alot of decks that splash black in the format.

I know for a fact that my midrange Threshold/Landstill variant LOVES that Tarmogoyf is your only win condition outside of Shackles (which does nothing to me). Recurring EE or Witness over and over can wins games too, I guess... but don't expect something that slow to answer something as fast as Threshold beats w/ recursion + CA.

Well I can't believe this thread turned into a bickering fight, and I'm not even involved........See bardo, I'm not the bad guy for once,,,lol. Anywaze


Start by I guess talking about extirpate, Actually if you wasteland+extirpate trop against Deepers list, that should be game because he can't play any creatures and you just overrun him or play mongoose to beat him. One thing to really help out against extirpate which Deeper did at the beggining of this thread. TOG. Its already been talked about how gig is not a finisher when he dies to a lonely mog fanatic and only playing 4 tarmogoyf is making your life hard against extirpate or even runed halo.

Now on to the actual qoute..... Finally you will stop harping about gigapede and Where do you think that your threshold/landstill deck doesn't have problems with shackles,, what creature other than mongoose does it not work on? And before you answer this, if I take factory, is stays with me even when it goes back to a land. Oh and when has threshold every had recursion........


There is a very simple fix to all of this, take out 1 tundra or underground and replace it with a forest if you have alot of dragon stompy or a savannah(for tundra) or bayou(for sea) and it keeps you from worrying about extirpate.(this play also helps with choke as well.) And play 2 togs like the old list and you are fine.

I play through extirpate all of the time, and I still win games.

EDIT: Now reading through the last posts 3 times now, This has gotten way to confusing and should be stopped. Lets move on since you are now not argueing on extirpate but on who answered a question or not.

On to talk about sideboard since it has not been argued enough:

I have this right now
4 BEB
4 leyline/crypt
3 grip
3 thoughtseize
1 loam

And right now I have decided to change it since my meta has no dredge and the one person playing breakfast is the only person playing dragon stompy at this point
4 BEB
3 grip
2 thoughtsieze
1 loam
3 leyline
2 hydroblast(if dragonstompy, it not go back to origonal.)

[Deep6er]

Simple. I tried him and I didn't like him. He's anti-synergistic with a great deal of the strategies (Eternal Witness, Stronghold, Ruins, Tarmogoyf), and he really isn't as good as he used to be. Tarmogoyf will just outclass Psychatog because he's bigger for longer with no other restrictions.

Also, Wasteland + Extirpate? Honestly, not terrified of that. Decks that play those tend to lose to Vedalken Shackles. Even then, I can deck them. Not like I'm going to play a sub-par creature in order to shore up a matchup that I'm not afraid of.


For the love of all that is holy, do NOT add Living Wish to this deck. That's terrible.

When someone Extirpates Tarmogoyf? Not really care. Said it once, say it again: If they're playing Extirpate, likely odds on beating them with Shackles is high. Black decks don't deal with artifacts.

Reading is fundamental. Please exercise your fundamentals.



Granted, but the sideboarding issue is a whole other can of worms.

I haven't decided on exactly what I want to play in the board. There are only a couple of options right now. Obviously, Leyline and Grip. But after that, it get's a little bit more murky. I LIKE the two Loams in the board, and I THINK Blasts are a good idea, but I'm not permanently sold on them. Additionally, with that configuration, there is one slot left. Obviously, if you're afraid of Extirpate (which I don't think you should be) you can play the one-of here, where you argue that people will bring in the grave hate.

Additionally, the decks that play the other colors that can deal with Shackles usually have to aim those things at Counterbalance. Otherwise, they can't play Magic. That's the key thing here. There are many difficult decisions when you play against It's the Fear, and fucking up too many of those will kill you just as easily as being unable to make the right one.

Take it from me. I've been playing a deck that's been focused on using Extirpate to it's fullest potential. You know what? The card just isn't all it's cracked up to be. Sure, sometimes it's good. Of course, other times it's fucking awful because it will NEVER AFFECT THE BOARD. The fact that you MUST combo it with another card just makes the card unwieldy and difficult to use a great deal of the time. Plus, it's actually really easy to counter with Counterbalance.

These quotes all make my position clear on Extirpate vs anything (that isn't Shackles).

For the record, Extirpate on Tropical Island amounts to EXACTLY the same thing as Extirpate on Tarmogoyf.

@landstill101: Hey, I was wondering if you could possibly remember the "6" in my name. That would be awesome. Also 2 Thoughtseize? That doesn't make any sense. If you want to have them against combo, you need to ensure that you see them early. Just playing 2 isn't going to do that.

@Hanni: Wow, you sound bitter. Chill dude. Seriously. I'd rather have the 21st land instead of a card that costs 5. I'd really rather not force Intuition to ALSO be my mana fixer. That's not what the card should be doing.

[Hanni]

@Hanni: Wow, you sound bitter. Chill dude.

Sorry, I was really drunk when I posted that last night. Now I have a hangover and have to go to work in an hour.

Costing 5 actually seems like a positive thing against an opposing Counterbalance... however, the Deeds and EEs you run probably negate that enough. Still though, a recurring Goyf from Stronghold also costs 5 mana.


One thing to really help out against extirpate which Deeper did at the beggining of this thread. TOG. Its already been talked about how gig is not a finisher when he dies to a lonely mog fanatic

A lone Fanatic kills Gigapede in combat and then Gigapede recurs next turn. A lone Fanatic stops Tog from swinging for lethal, so I don't really see the strength of the argument. Aggro across the other side of the table is going to stop any aggro in the deck from swinging through because of the lack of evasion... yea, Gigapede actually dies, but he also recurs himself. I don't see how a lone Fanatic automatically makes him a bad card when Gigapede is way better than Tog against Threshold and other control decks like Landstill.

However, no one else feels the need for Gigapede (or Tog), so making further arguments for or against it is just derailing the thread.

[landstill101]

For the record, Extirpate on Tropical Island amounts to EXACTLY the same thing as Extirpate on Tarmogoyf. .

Well that is if you don't play loam or play eternal witness which in my opinion hitting trop is alot worse.


@landstill101: Hey, I was wondering if you could possibly remember the "6" in my name. That would be awesome.


Get a better name.



Also 2 Thoughtseize? That doesn't make any sense. If you want to have them against combo, you need to ensure that you see them early. Just playing 2 isn't going to do that.


There is no combo in my meta other than 1 belcher deck and one breakfast which makes my need for thoughtseize go down, I DON'T NEED THAT MANY. wow learn to read the post right.

[Deep6er]

Wow, "get a better name". This coming from the guy named landstill101. Ouch. I think I'm going to go cry myself to sleep now.

See, my point about Thoughtseize was that if you were playing too few, maybe you should PLAY OTHER CARDS. Exercise critical thinking. I DID in fact, read the post correctly. Thanks.

EDIT: Is it just me or is it even funnier that you can't spell my name right and then accuse me of NOT READING? I find that just delicious. Thanks.

[OneBigSquirrelGod]

Back on the topic at hand. I don't think the fear is that good of a deck. While at the Grand Prix Side event, a few major decks that were there were goblins, Dredge and Threshold, and those matchups are very hard for the fear to beat. Not to Mention Dragon stompy or Enchantress. I think you two should stop crying to each other about a pointless deck. WHy don;t you two work on a way to make the deck good instead of complaining about others' names

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Oh, Dave.

"Argue not with idiots, lest an idiot ye become; and when ye gaze too long at a 'tard, the tard gazes back, and then asks you if you want to be his friend, and it just gets really awkward from there."

- Friedrich Nietzsche

[Deep6er]

@OneBigSquirrelGod: It's unfortunate that you think that way. I'll tell you that you're wrong, but you likely won't believe me. So, instead of going on and on about how you're wrong, I could just point out that it's both your free time and your electricity that you wasted by coming in here and not doing anything. Thanks.

@Jack: You win. Whatever game we were playing, you've definitely won. That was awesome.

[Kuma]

Oh, Dave.

"Argue not with idiots, lest an idiot ye become; and when ye gaze too long at a 'tard, the tard gazes back, and then asks you if you want to be his friend, and it just gets really awkward from there."

- Friedrich Nietzsche

Sigged.

Oh, and landstill101, I'm flattered that you consider me, one guy out of 12-18 people at our tournaments enough to alter your sideboard, but don't you think it's a bad idea to alter your sideboard based on which deck you think I'm playing that night? Do you really know beforehand whether or not I'm playing Cephalid Breakfast, Dragon Stompy, or something completely different?

[Hanni]

Since you don't want to run Gigapede (or Tog), what about dropping 1 StP for 1 Shriekmaw? That now gives you the ability to recur spot removal for when you don't want to recur EE (possibly once CB hits the table and you need to blow EE for 2). Not only that, it answers some things that recurring EE cannot (like some of the Dragon Stompy beaters), and it fills some of the roles that Gigapede would fill:

Additional win condition
Evasive
5cc to play through opposing CB's
5cc to use with Stronghold + CB vs FoW and etc

Plus other stuff I'm probably forgetting.

[Deep6er]

What creature would be in play that isn't dealt with by my own Tarmogoyf's can't be stolen with Shackles, and, for whatever reason, can't be Swords'd?

Honestly, I'll consider adding some kind of additional win condition if you can come up with one that is honestly good enough to put in the deck. With the arguments that you're using, I could apply those to something like... Hypnox!

Additional Win condition
Evasive
Million fucking mana to get through Counterbalances
Million fucking mana to stop those million fucking mana spells.

Plus, if it comes into play, you get to remove their hand from the game!

Dude, not trying to be mean, but just honestly asking a question. Do you see where I'm coming from?

[landstill101]

Sigged.

Oh, and landstill101, I'm flattered that you consider me, one guy out of 12-18 people at our tournaments enough to alter your sideboard, but don't you think it's a bad idea to alter your sideboard based on which deck you think I'm playing that night? Do you really know beforehand whether or not I'm playing Cephalid Breakfast, Dragon Stompy, or something completely different?

Lol no I don't try to stalk you and figure out which deck you play(if this is who I think it is and your dam first turn moon effects suck.)But you are the only person who plays dragon stompy or breakfast at our location which in both instances I would change my sideboard to help to which one you played, you havn't played dragon stompy in a while, so I just assumed you were playing breakfast or your green stompy. If I would have realized that you were playing stompy, I would have taken out the 3 thoughtseizes and a crypt to add hydro and something else. From what I heard thou was that You wern't going to play stompy last night but changed your mind because I showed up.

[Michael Keller]

Referencing the win-conditions:

Plague Sliver, perhaps? He's essentially a Juzam Djinn at four mana (2BB) for a 5/5. Is getting to double black ever a problem?

Vexing Beetle? He's 5 mana (4G) for a 3/3 that can't be countered and if your opponent has no dudes, he becomes a 6/6. With all the removal you pack, that's not an entirely unimaginable scenario.

Stampeding Wildebeests? Cost-effective, big, and sets up really neat tricks with Witnesses (if you wanted to play more than one).

Quirion Dryad? With the various amount of colored spells you play, he could get big in a hurry.

[landstill101]

Just to make sure everyone is clear and so that his posts are completly thrown out the door.

OnebigSqurrielgod is a player at my shop that is pissed off because he does very well with his white stax deck(got 15th at the side event in indy) but still hasn't beat me once in the last 20 games and he built my version of ITF and still says its bad. Hes just angry no one listen to him.

@Hanni, I've have also thought of putting in one shriekmaw because of the recursion and I am actually testing it on MWS right now.

[Kuma]

Lol no I don't try to stalk you and figure out which deck you play(if this is who I think it is and your dam first turn moon effects suck.)But you are the only person who plays dragon stompy or breakfast at our location which in both instances I would change my sideboard to help to which one you played, you havn't played dragon stompy in a while, so I just assumed you were playing breakfast or your green stompy. If I would have realized that you were playing stompy, I would have taken out the 3 thoughtseizes and a crypt to add hydro and something else. From what I heard thou was that You wern't going to play stompy last night but changed your mind because I showed up.

It just sounded like the process was haphazard from reading that post. Still, the odds of you playing me or any particular player are pretty low, so you're probably better off choosing the cards that help you against the most people.

I didn't play Dragon Stompy solely because of you. I was debating between Elephant Stompy and Dragon Stompy all day leaning towards Dragon Stompy. Based on the people who showed up, you included, I decided Dragon Stompy gave me a much better chance of winning the store credit I needed to finish a deck I'm working on.

My first turn moons were the result of my mulliganing skills. It's not like you didn't answer them games one and two. :tongue:

And yes, this is exactly who you think this is. :smile:

[Spare Parts]

Oh man, what's going on with this thread? Aside from awesome IBA quote, I mean.

I have played decks with Gigapede, and even though it was awesome in some decks, I can not see it working in ITF. It's not a kind of threat nor kind of card this deck needs, and that I am quite sure of. Absolutely doesn't suit ITF's playing style.

Extirpate is a card that we have to be aware of, on that I agree. But what I don't agree with, is the fact that this deck can't cope with it. It definitely can. After Extirpating Trop Island or Goyf, there is still a secondary win condition, being it Vedalken Shackles or something else (I preferred Hoofprints, but I may shift back to Shackles though). And even when the 2nd win condition becomes Extirpated, we can still just deck them, the kind of deck that plays heavy Extirpates MD/SB is the same kind of deck that just cant stand long game against ITF. Well, very few decks can.

As for sideboard, I still prefer the plan I posted a few pages back:
3 Extirpate
1 Tormod's Crypt
4 Thoughtseize
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Engineered Plague

[Hana, The Deadly Flower]

I tested this deck and goblins is one of its worst match ups. i think i won 2-3 times out of 10. Should Life re-gain be added to this deck? Bottle Gnomes? =P

[Spare Parts]

I tested this deck and goblins is one of its worst match ups. i think i won 2-3 times out of 10. Should Life re-gain be added to this deck? Bottle Gnomes? =PWell, Goblins are not that bad matchup actually although yes, matchup against them is quite bad.
If you take a look at my SB (2 posts above), you can see that I board in 7 cards against them, which makes it quite playable.
-4 Counterbalance
-3 Spell Snare (that would be Counterspell in your versions)
+4 REB
+3 Engineered Plague

[landstill101]

Well, Goblins are not that bad matchup actually although yes, matchup against them is quite bad.
If you take a look at my SB (2 posts above), you can see that I board in 7 cards against them, which makes it quite playable.
-4 Counterbalance
-3 Spell Snare (that would be Counterspell in your versions)
+4 REB
+3 Engineered Plague

Goblins has never been a bad matchup for me. Right now I havn't lost a match against them, many of times I've had to go to game 3 but I havn't lost, but I also run tog.

Really 4 BEB is enough stacked with 4 STP, 4 Goyfs and 2 shackles its a pretty good matchup for you.

If you want life gain, you add darkheart sliver, its the best life gain for this deck.

[Spare Parts]

What I was trying to say is that Goblins are not the easiest matchup, but they are far from unwinnable, most probably even positive. 50:50 preboard, 60:40 postboard. At least that's how I see it. Definitely nowhere around those 2:8 suggested by Hana.

Sorry for confusing you by my previous post, sometimes I have a hard time to express exactly what I want to say because I'm not a native English speaker.

[Hana, The Deadly Flower]

Goblins has never been a bad matchup for me. Right now I havn't lost a match against them, many of times I've had to go to game 3 but I havn't lost, but I also run tog.

Really 4 BEB is enough stacked with 4 STP, 4 Goyfs and 2 shackles its a pretty good matchup for you.

If you want life gain, you add darkheart sliver, its the best life gain for this deck.
I think I would side out shackles. By the time i get that out, they would have 4+ goblins out

[Joon]

Yeah, and last time I heard that stealing the Warchief and blocking the Driver is kinda good.

[Spare Parts]

I think I would side out shackles. By the time i get that out, they would have 4+ goblins outI think I'm starting to see where exactly lies the problem in your testing :laugh:

Seriously, active Shackles are probably the best weapon you have against goblins maindeck.

[Hana, The Deadly Flower]

Problem with my testing? I didn't even side out shackles, but by the time i got that out, it's already lethal.

[gnat]

try to stall untill you can activate a devestating deed. you have: counters, stp, goyf, explosives... also: aim for the goodies.

[landstill101]

Problem with my testing? I didn't even side out shackles, but by the time i got that out, it's already lethal.

Well why don't you do some testing and put on here the report of it and we can see if there is a problem or not. Against goblins It's always important to stop the first turn lackey, without that they really arnt that fast. if you stop first turn lackey then you have counters to stop warchief and remember a lonely piledriver is worse than a fanatic. And after turn 2 in which you can counter something, drop a goyf, or a explosives, turn 3 you can drop deed, tog, or ........SHACKLES...... or if you have to take a little bit of damage and use intuition to get what you need. By this time you should have board control and can keep it easily. Sideboard is easy since it gives you now 8 easy first turn stops to lackey and easy removal to make shackles more explosive.

[Mister Agent]

I definitely do not like running living wish in here for a couple of reasons:

1. Your going to decimate your sideboard which will prevent you from playing magic postboard.

2. Also after testing a couple of variations of its the fear living wish definitely feels like a win more type of card.

3. Also ITF has plenty of efficient tutors in the form of intuition so the deck does not need anymore tutors especially the ones that can dilute the sideboard in a irrelevant manner.

I also agree with Dave here eternal witness is definitely a card that should be kept in its the fear. Witness enables you to win any attrition battle in the format which is important and should be considered when playing against decks like landstill.

Not to mention I feel naked when I play ITF without witness.

[landstill101]

Well since its been quiet here, I played a tourny last night and went 3-2 in the swiss losing to 9 land stompy and white weenie, here is how it went:


9 lands stompy:
First game I kept hand with 1 fetch and a top with a couple of goyfs and force back up, I counter his land grant and then get mana screwed badly,(he drew more land than me, and I lost) second game, I had the game in my grasp and he drops a winters orb and keeps me from getting enough to go crazy with recursion(and I don't draw shit) and finally gets a forest walker for the win.
White weenie, first game I lost because I didnt draw white or green, drew 2 seas, academy ruins and stronghold and lost sadly. Second game I won but didn't see and tundras, and third game, he drops down jitte first turn, I still don't see any white, he drops down sword of fire and ice 2nd turn, and i still don't see anything, then he drops 2 avengers on turn 3 and then kicks me ass down to 3 life after some trickyness to keep him from attacking right. then I was able to explosives for 2 and stablize, then He drops a jitte and a silver knight and I have a goyf and a tog, which he o ring the tog then fricken armogeddons and eventually wins because once again he draws land faster than I do.

But what the heck, I made 7 place, went to the playoffs and played 42 land.dec for the first round and lost the first match horribly and then next 2 games I got tormods crypt recursion by turn 3-4ish to make him scoop. Then I played a Dead guy ale deck for top 4 and won with shackles killing him with his own creatures. Then by this time I was sooooo sick of playing magic( mainly from me making a couple key mistakes which could have won me a couple of matches I lost) I drew for first. Ta Dah even thou I went 3-2 in swiss, I was still able to pull it off and win it all.(although those 2 loses brings me down 35 points and the wins only bring me up about 20 sadly enough)

[Illissius]

What did you beat in the swiss?

[yawg07]

I know he drew top-2 with the White Weenie player that beat him in the swiss.
But who was playing deadguy? Was Ryan? Huh, lol, I guess he switched up Mono-Black.

[landstill101]

I know he drew top-2 with the White Weenie player that beat him in the swiss.
But who was playing deadguy? Was Ryan? Huh, lol, I guess he switched up Mono-Black.

Yea ryan, it wasn't really the whole deadguy with sinkhole and vindicate and such because he was still his crazy knight stuff, he just added white with stp, soo I couldn't think of a different name.

[landstill101]

What did you beat in the swiss?

For some odd reason, I can't remember at all who I played first, but the second and third win was random shrock deck and the other was a weird keep me from attacking with ghostly prison/muse/revelark thingy. So mostly nothing to note about at all, so I didn't

[Fossil4182]

I just finished my first event with Its the Fear. I must say that I was impressed with the deck. I ended up going 2-1-1 in the Swiss rounds however and missed breaking by one place :-/

At any rate, I was wondering if anyone felt like the deck had no true card drawing effects and if so, whether or not those ought to be added. Specifically that while Intuition lets you tutor and Brainstorm and Top let you effectively set up your draws, the deck lacks any true way to gain real card advantage. Granted, most cards in the deck create some form of virtual card advantage, however, I found myself dropping into top deck mode a bit too much for what I felt a deck like this ought to. Am I just missing something, or is that how the deck plays?

[Deep6er]

I just finished my first event with Its the Fear. I must say that I was impressed with the deck. I ended up going 2-1-1 in the Swiss rounds however and missed breaking by one place :-/

At any rate, I was wondering if anyone felt like the deck had no true card drawing effects and if so, whether or not those ought to be added. Specifically that while Intuition lets you tutor and Brainstorm and Top let you effectively set up your draws, the deck lacks any true way to gain real card advantage. Granted, most cards in the deck create some form of virtual card advantage, however, I found myself dropping into top deck mode a bit too much for what I felt a deck like this ought to. Am I just missing something, or is that how the deck plays?

I rarely drop to no cards in hand. Loam, Counterbalance, and Deed (which means that you usually sit on cards in hand) keep me from running out of cards.

Additionally, if you have no cards in your hand, it's usually because your opponent has no cards in hand. Which also means that your powerful bombs against them are going to resolve which should put the game pretty far out of their reach.

Honestly, you don't really need a method of card advantage unless you have a lot of Landstill in your metagame. It's actually really easy to 1-for-1 Threshold and come out ahead. Other decks, like Goblins, you can multiple-for-1 them in order to create a massive amount of virtual card advantage. I used to play a Meditate in the main in order to draw a lot of cards, but realized that it just wasn't necessary. The insane amount of advantage created by cards like Counterbalance, Pernicious Deed, and Intuition are so high that it is easy to skip out on drawing a lot of cards.

In the end, I'd recommend just playing it like that. It's rare to run out of cards in hand, but if you do, it shouldn't be a huge worry. You'll usually gain control over the game with a good 2-4 cards in hand, and those cards are usually pretty solid.

[Obfuscate Freely]

The insane amount of advantage created by cards like Counterbalance, Pernicious Deed, and Intuition
What sort of "advantage" do those cards generate? Certainly you don't mean card advantage, since Intuition creates nothing of the sort. Like, not even in sane amounts.

Fossil, your concerns are reasonable. This deck is sorely missing Standstill and Fact or Fiction.

[Kadaj]

What sort of "advantage" do those cards generate? Certainly you don't mean card advantage, since Intuition creates nothing of the sort. Like, not even in sane amounts.

Fossil, your concerns are reasonable. This deck is sorely missing Standstill and Fact or Fiction.

The terms card quality, tempo, board position, virtual card advantage, and card advantage were sort of all meshed together in what Deep6er was describing. If you stick the strict definition of card advantage, that is to say card advantage is anything that actually increases your hand size, then the only thing in this deck that actually provides card advantage is Life from the Loam. However, that is largely an argument of semantics, despite how much it bothers me when people incorrect use the terms. It's pretty clear what Deep6er meant, even if I personally don't agree with his assertions.

Honestly, I don't see how this deck has a workable Goblins matchup. You're 4 colors, play only 1 card that allows you to actually gain leverage against them (Deed), although EE can fill in that role at times as well, and a ton of cards like Counterbalance, Intuition, and the Life engine that just aren't good against Goblins. Yes you have Goyf, which is all well and good, but that isn't enough on it's own. Threshold leverages Goyf in a much different way than this deck is capable of because it can actually push the game's tempo and put the Goblins player on the defensive. ITF will never be the aggro player in this matchup, which makes Goyf little more than a glorified wall.

I assume your personal experiences with the deck suggest otherwise, but I have a hard time imagining this deck being successful against a Goblins build with 4 Ports and 4 Wastelands, especially considering you run a grand total of, oh, 21 lands. Of which, only 1 is a basic land.

My other question about the deck is going to sound weird, but I'll explain myself. Why would you play this deck over Threshold? I can already hear people going "Wtf? ITF is a control deck, not an aggro-control deck!". Well yes, it is, but at the time I don't think this deck can fulfill the control role that well, especially against other Control. You play 21 lands, which is abhorrently low for any deck attempting to play the control role, and you're essentially running a very similar cantrip shell to the average Threshold deck, except you have Intuition instead of what is usually Ponder to further your attempts to play the Control role.

By the same token I understand the theory against a control deck with ITF would be to play the aggro-control role and attempt to win the game that way, but most of your tools that would allow you to attempt that are less effective against true Control (i.e. Counterbalance, Shackles, etc). By splitting the middle between a true control deck and an aggro-control deck I think this deck loses a lot of coherence in terms of what it's able to achieve.

I'm probably not articulating myself well, but when I look at this decklist it looks like Threshold without the Thresh critters and with more control cards. From a purely results oriented point of view, I really have a hard time looking at this sort of deck, especially with the specific numbers you've been working with (21 lands? Really?) and understanding why you'd ever want to play this thing over Threshold for any reason other than that you don't like the way Threshold plays.

[Deep6er]

@Obfuscate Freely: There was a reason I did NOT use the term "Card Advantage". I used the term "advantage" because that means something different. The advantages gained from the use of Intuition refer to the advancement of your game plan to it's logical end, i.e. control over the game state. The terms "advantage" and "Card Advantage" are different, and that's why I didn't use one of them.

@Kadaj: In reality, the Goblins matchup is pretty simple to explain. Once I hit three lands, it's difficult to keep mana denial relevant. Intuition instantaneously stabilizes your manabase, and enables you to make quite a few land drops in order to beat Port. Additionally, Counterbalance is EXTREMELY relevant in that matchup because it can counter the cards from 1-3. The fact that it can counter Warren Weirding (their primary removal spell for Tarmogoyf), means that Tarmogoyf is an INCREDIBLE wall. Honestly, that's all you need. You want that ridiculously good wall for the first portion of the game so you can stabilize, and set up your cards. There are quite a few cards in this deck that Goblins will have significant problems with. Pernicious Deed, Vedalken Shackles, Tarmogoyf, Counterbalance, the list goes on. I know you won't believe me when I say "trust me", but testing has proven that Goblins is NOT favored against It's the Fear.

When I play against a control deck with It's the Fear, I never attempt to play the aggro-control role. For example, against traditional four color Landstill (which is what I did my testing against), the plan is to stick a Counterbalance, and then win the game. Counterbalance (with this deck's curve) locks them out of playing so much of their game plan that winning the game is pretty simple after that. I have yet to test against the newer Landstill decks that are packing Counterbalance, but I admit that those will probably be problematic if they're able to consistently counter 3 cost spells.

The reason that I play this deck over Threshold is simple. It has better control matchups than Threshold, and a better Threshold matchup than Threshold. I'll definitely admit that Threshold beats the piss out of Goblins way better than It's the Fear, but that's just not as relevant as it used to be.

[Kadaj]

@Kadaj:....I know you won't believe me when I say "trust me", but testing has proven that Goblins is NOT favored against It's the Fear.

I'm much more inclined to believe you than I would normally be in most cases, I suppose it's just my own personal experience with polychromatic control decks, many of which packing similar cards, struggling mightily against Goblins, but I'll take your word for it in this case. I'll probably test it myself at some point, but until then I'll assume you know what you're talking about.


When I play against a control deck with It's the Fear, I never attempt to play the aggro-control role. For example, against traditional four color Landstill (which is what I did my testing against), the plan is to stick a Counterbalance, and then win the game. Counterbalance (with this deck's curve) locks them out of playing so much of their game plan that winning the game is pretty simple after that. I have yet to test against the newer Landstill decks that are packing Counterbalance, but I admit that those will probably be problematic if they're able to consistently counter 3 cost spells.

The reason that I play this deck over Threshold is simple. It has better control matchups than Threshold, and a better Threshold matchup than Threshold. I'll definitely admit that Threshold beats the piss out of Goblins way better than It's the Fear, but that's just not as relevant as it used to be.

The major issue I have here is that every time I've played against ITF with a control deck, be it MUC or UWb Landstill (those being the two I actually play), I've won 2-0 with almost no trouble whatsoever. Neither of the aformentioned decks pack Counterbalance, and I never even bother fighting Counterbalance when ITF would attempt to resolve it because I've never had it matter against me playing either of those decks. Perhaps it's just the structure of my lists versus the normal lists you've tested against (and I don't play 4c Landstill, so I wouldn't know how that works out) but I have a hard time believing Counterbalance is relevant at all against other Control decks.

[Deep6er]

@Kadaj: I find that exceedingly odd. If I recall correctly, both UWB Landstill and MUC have cards that range in cost from 1 to 3. Theoretically, Counterbalance should have had SOME impact on the game. What list of It's the Fear were you testing? What about Landstill and MUC? I will freely admit that those are decks that I haven't tested against, but it seems that they would still follow the same rules for control decks. How many games have you tested? I'm not going to lie, that statement boggles me. Control decks are my FAVORITE matchup with It's the Fear.

As an aside, I've been testing a slightly new configuration of It's the Fear. After careful consideration, I decided that the third Counterspell was less relevant because it's not as incredibly valuable in the early game, as it is in the later stages (especially against Control decks) of the game.

I also decided that Vedalken Shackles is a better one-of because I would rather Intuition for it as a game breaking bomb, than have to deal with the card being in my hand at inopportune moments.

So, the new configuration that I'm testing is as follows:

-1 Vedalken Shackles
-1 Counterspell
+1 Island
+1 Plains

I decided that I would test more lands as some people have mentioned that repeatedly. Even though I didn't have a real problem with 21, it seems that 23 is also really good.

I think that a Plains is better than a Forest for multiple reasons.

1) Under a Moon effect, I would rather have access to Swords to Plowshares (regardless of the type of Moon, Magus or Blood) because it allows me to delay the game until I can find Explosives.

2) I don't think it would be a good idea to bastardize the manabase in order to add a single fetchable Forest. Adding Windswept Heaths (which can't find Underground Sea) seems like it could color screw you at times.

3) A single Forest is not going to help me cast a Pernicious Deed under a Moon Effect. Because I'm not going to add a basic Swamp, I think it also devalues the Forest.

4) I'm not worried about people Extirpating Tropical Island.

I'll be playing this list up in New York for the One Thousand Dollar tournament. Hopefully, I'll do well and I'll be able to tell you guys how I did.

[Kadaj]

@Kadaj: I find that exceedingly odd. If I recall correctly, both UWB Landstill and MUC have cards that range in cost from 1 to 3. Theoretically, Counterbalance should have had SOME impact on the game. What list of It's the Fear were you testing? What about Landstill and MUC? I will freely admit that those are decks that I haven't tested against, but it seems that they would still follow the same rules for control decks. How many games have you tested? I'm not going to lie, that statement boggles me. Control decks are my FAVORITE matchup with It's the Fear.

It's not that Counterbalance doesn't have an impact on the game at all, more that said impact was completely negligible whenever it occurred. I was testing the MUC on the opening page of the thread here (my list, specifically), and it wasn't difficult to just throw more bombs at ITF than it could handle (I was testing against the first list you posted in this thread, the one without Psychatog). Fact is very hard for ITF to deal with, AV makes you put lands actively on top if you want Counterbalance to stop it, and Back to Basics is very easy to force down before you can get Counterbalance online, and often even when you do have it down. You only have 4-5 spells with cmc 3, so I often just pretend Counterbalance doesn't exist in that case.

I have, on occasion, countered or otherwise prevented Balance from staying in play because I knew I had B2B coming up and I didn't want to even have to consider Counterbalance when I was ready to play it, but for the most part it just wasn't relevant. One important thing to note as far as the UWb Landstill list I was playing is that I had Dismantling Blow in the main as a 2 of, so that didn't make life any easier for ITF.

All in all I've played about 10 matches against ITF with MUC and never lost a single individual game. I have no doubt the fact that I've spent a shitload of my time testing against Top/Balance helps me to play around it on the occasions it does matter, but at the same time those occasions have been few and far between. I haven't played quite as much against ITF with UWb Landstill, but in the two games I distinctly recall, I didn't lose an individual game either.

[Deep6er]

OK, there are definitely more than 4-5 spells with CMC of 3.

4 Intuition
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Vedalken Shackles
1 Eternal Witness

That's NOT a negligible number. Hell, that one also had Meditate so that makes eleven. I'm truly boggled by your assessments. I don't disbelieve you, I'm just stunned that things turned out like that.

While I can't argue with your testing results, once I get around to testing both of those matchups, I'll relate how I did. Until then though, all I can say is that I don't think those matchups should have turned out like you say they did. I know it's not much, but I'm not going to continue until I can get some testing in against those decks.

[Kadaj]

I mispoke, and misread at the same as it turns out. I was crosschecking the lists and thought it said X1 Intuition, not 4. The Eternal Witness I just didn't add into the number. Indeed now it does seem odd that it turned out that way, just because in my head I was thinking along the lines that ITF didn't have a whole lot in the way of 3cc spells. I can't really state why that would be, except that I assume you would want to cast Intuition when you draw it, and not just float it on the top of your library, so that may account for at least some of the variation between what would be mathematically expected and what actually happened.

On the other hand, there were multiple games where ITF didn't find Counterbalance at all, so in that case the number of 3cc spells were largely irrelevant (or at least, the fact that they're 3cc was).

[Deep6er]

I don't always want to cast Intuition. If I know that it's more beneficial to have a card that costs 3 on top of my library rather than in my hand, I'll wait until another card that costs three comes up. Additionally, the shuffle effect on Intuition might reset the top to put another three on top. Or, using Ruins/Stronghold in order to put Shackles/Witness back on top. Honestly, there are so many tricks to keeping certain mana costs on top of your library that it's rather humorous.

But, we'll see what happens when I test these matchups. It's going to take awhile (because we'll be heading up to the tournament in New York soon), but I'll try to test some while I'm up there. I'll let you know how it goes.

[Kadaj]

No worries, I look forward to seeing how your testing goes. If anything more volume can only be beneficial in terms of testing accuracy, so it'd definitely be great if you can squeeze it in. Also, good luck at the tournament, although now I have the image of some random guy playing Solidarity and knocking you out in the last round before Top 8. Let's hope that doesn't come to pass eh?

[Deep6er]

While that would actually be rather humorous, oddly enough, one of the decks that I tested against It's the Fear was Solidarity (vanity, I suppose :)). God, what a beating. Solidarity could not resolve spells. Even post-board, with tight play, you could stop a Wipe Away which would be soul crushing for Solidarity. Although, I might just give it to him. I love Solidarity so much that if he can make it, I might just let him have it. Poor Solidarity, I miss you so much. :(

Fuck Counterbalance and Tarmogoyf. I hates them. Hates them. Filthy cardses.

[Deep7er]

Honestly as the aggro player I've found that acadamy ruins + Shackles / EE is what ITF has going for it more than anything else. The only concievable way to deal with it is to Pithing Needle the Acadamy Ruins and destroy their shackles. If shackles resolves and stays in play the aggro player is going to have an extremely hard time dealing with it (unless they grip / disenchant with no acadamy ruins)

The deck itself is turning out to be a nuisance like goblins was a year-ish ago. You need answers to Shackles / Ruins or your going to be .....

An extremely sad panda with aids and cancer....

[Hana, The Deadly Flower]

In the Goblin match up, I would pretty much accept the loss and hope for the best post sideboard. I believe this deck has a 30% chance of winning pre-board. For game 2/3, I would take out Counterbalance since it takes a while to set up the Top/Balance combo. By the time you have that out, you would be at < 10 life and they would have at least 4 goblins on the field. Goblins will definitely board in 4 REB/Pyroblast.

My main ITF build has 3 smothers in it and no Counterspell "UU" card. This will help me against mirror, threshold and somewhat have a chance against goblins.

ITF is by far the most consistent Legacy deck out there and I will use this for the Gen Con Legacy Championships on Aug 15. Wish me luck!

Has anyone tested against Tendrils? Let me know what the results are.

[Obfuscate Freely]

@Obfuscate Freely: There was a reason I did NOT use the term "Card Advantage". I used the term "advantage" because that means something different. The advantages gained from the use of Intuition refer to the advancement of your game plan to it's logical end, i.e. control over the game state. The terms "advantage" and "Card Advantage" are different, and that's why I didn't use one of them.
I appreciate that you purposely avoided using the term "card advantage" in that sentence, but you repeatedly referred to how Deed and Counterbalance can trade with multiple cards. Wrapping up the paragraph with a statement that lumps Intuition in with those cards is cleverly misleading, especially because you were replying to someone asking whether the deck can generate card advantage or not.

For the sake of discussion, using the word "advantage" without modifiers like card or tempo makes it largely meaningless. I could just as easily say that Intuition creates insane "disadvantage," which is as true as saying the opposite, but nobody can really draw any information out of either statement.


Anyway, Standstill and Fact or Fiction are still better cards than Intuition. Why aren't you playing them?

[Zach Tartell]

ITF is by far the most consistent Legacy deck out there and I will use this for the Gen Con Legacy Championships on Aug 15. Wish me luck!

Has anyone tested against Tendrils? Let me know what the results are.

I love the "OMG THIS DECK IS THE GREATEST EVER" comment next to the, "Hey, I haven't tested against one third of the competitive meta game. How's our game there?" one.

I have to say that I had a blast playing this in the two man tournament. I can't say that it's the greatest deck ever, but it certainly is pretty awesome. Playing the deck certainly made me re-think the "Counterbalance/Top doesn't work with Deed period" argument.

[Deep6er]

Standstill changes how the deck plays. You become reliant on forcing your opponent to break it in order to generate the Card Advantage from it. In many situations you can capitalize on it, but not every single scenario. Also, drawing from my own experiences with Standstill combined with Counterbalance and Sensei's Divining Top, I can safely say that they don't work out tremendously well.

Counterbalance + Sensei's Divining Top want you to continue playing Magic. Standstill doesn't. It's an important difference when you consider that I don't think it would be worthwhile to play Mishra's Factory or Decree of Justice or some other way to win under a Standstill. By bastardizing the idea to run an, admittedly, powerful card, I would be playing something that is rather different in application to It's the Fear.

I don't think you can say that Standstill is a better card than Intuition. They do different things. They're difficult to compare, and it's near pointless to do so.

I don't play Fact or Fiction because it costs too much. In the Legacy format, the difference between three and four is phenomenal. Additionally, it has similar weaknesses to other "pure" draw spells. It can't find specific cards in clutch scenarios.

Also, I disagree with your assessment of the term "advantage". Should you be able to implement your game plan more effectively than your opponent, you have the "advantage". Notice how there's no modifiers? It's not necessary. Since I was talking about different kinds of advantages, and not the singular terms of "card" and "tempo", I did not use those modifiers. The advantages that I was referencing, were the implementation of game plan advantage, and the ease of answering problematic permanent advantage. Those don't have easily recognized buzzwords like "tempo" so I didn't type it all out.

In all honesty, I've played Landstill. Quite a bit, I might add. I feel that It's the Fear does things differently, and in some situations, better. I feel that Standstill causes you to rely on things outside of your control, and also mandates that you alter the structure of your deck in order to accommodate it. I feel that Fact or Fiction costs too much mana, and doesn't have the same and necessary ability of finding very specific cards as Intuition does. So, that's why.

[Hanni]

Anyway, Standstill and Fact or Fiction are still better cards than Intuition. Why aren't you playing them?

How are they better? Because they generate immediate card advantage? Intuition is an engine, not immediate card advantage, so it's difficult to even compare them... and arrogant to say that they are "better".

Once you resolve Intuition, your engines are now online. By engines, I mean Loam recur so you can make as many land drops as you want and recurability of creatures/artifacts.

Although this particular version (ITF) doesn't make card advantage with Inuition (outside of using Loam), other versions do (Coliseum, Genesis). So especially in those cases, to say that Standstill and Fact or Fiction are better is, IMO, quite the opposite.


I don't play Fact or Fiction because it costs too much. In the Legacy format, the difference between three and four is phenomenal. Additionally, it has similar weaknesses to other "pure" draw spells. It can't find specific cards in clutch scenarios.


I disagree with this, though. ITF spends way more than 4 mana on "drawing" stuff with Inuition + recur engines. 3 mana for just the Intuition, then 2 mana for the Loam, then 3 mana per recur (Stronghold/Ruins) costs 8 mana to draw something specific (and then 3 for each one after that). Albeit I find the recur to be more powerful than what Fact or Fiction would do, it still costs less to play Fact or Fiction. The only thing I see here is that Fact costs 4 mana in 1 turn, where you can split up the mana costs when using Intuition + recur, but still.

Now, whether or not FoF is actually needed or not is an entirely different issue. I'm inclined to say that it would probably help your deck, since you don't have additional draw in cards like Coliseum or Genesis, but it's not necessarily needed.

[Obfuscate Freely]

Standstill changes how the deck plays. You become reliant on forcing your opponent to break it in order to generate the Card Advantage from it. In many situations you can capitalize on it, but not every single scenario. Also, drawing from my own experiences with Standstill combined with Counterbalance and Sensei's Divining Top, I can safely say that they don't work out tremendously well.

Counterbalance + Sensei's Divining Top want you to continue playing Magic. Standstill doesn't.
Are Standstill and Counterbalance really mutually exclusive? Sensei's Top is certainly amazing with Standstill.

What do you mean when you say that Counterbalance and Top "want you to continue playing Magic?" As good as it is, that combo eats up a hell of a lot of mana, which hinders you from playing other spells. Standstill, in comparison, only requires a single, set investment of mana, and is usually broken immediately (by competent opponents). I wouldn't say that Standstill encourages you to stop playing Magic, even though I seriously doubt the importance of that metric in the first place.

You also vastly underrate the reliability of Standstill. It really does work as it's supposed to in the majority of situations likely to come up in a Legacy tournament.

It's an important difference when you consider that I don't think it would be worthwhile to play Mishra's Factory or Decree of Justice or some other way to win under a Standstill. By bastardizing the idea to run an, admittedly, powerful card, I would be playing something that is rather different in application to It's the Fear.
The power of Standstill outweighs the concessions you have to make in order to run it. Having to run a decent card like Factory is a small concession to make, anyway.

You cannot justify building a deck suboptimally because correcting the mistakes would turn it into a different deck.

I don't think you can say that Standstill is a better card than Intuition. They do different things. They're difficult to compare, and it's near pointless to do so.
I think the two stand to be compared as engines; they are alternate methods to ensure that you have relevant spells to play as a game goes on. I call Standstill better because it requires a much lesser investment of mana, and because it comes online much earlier.

Basically, Standstill creates even more insane amounts of advantage, for less mana, than Intuition does. Or something.


I don't play Fact or Fiction because it costs too much. In the Legacy format, the difference between three and four is phenomenal.
Intuition is much more mana-intensive than Fact or Fiction, and you know it. You are wrong about Fact costing too much, but it is on the borderline for Legacy (which is why people don't play, say, Opportunity, or Stroke of Genius). This is also, incidentally, why Intuition is poor.


Additionally, it has similar weaknesses to other "pure" draw spells. It can't find specific cards in clutch scenarios.
This is a pretty weak argument. Drawing more cards than your opponent is a proven and overwhelmingly successful strategy. I suppose that Ancestral Recall doesn't always draw you the specific card you're looking for, but it still wins plenty of games.


Also, I disagree with your assessment of the term "advantage". Should you be able to implement your game plan more effectively than your opponent, you have the "advantage". Notice how there's no modifiers? It's not necessary. Since I was talking about different kinds of advantages, and not the singular terms of "card" and "tempo", I did not use those modifiers. The advantages that I was referencing, were the implementation of game plan advantage, and the ease of answering problematic permanent advantage. Those don't have easily recognized buzzwords like "tempo" so I didn't type it all out.
You may have resolved the ambiguity of your initial statement, but I still take issue with the way you surreptitiously concluded a paragraph about card advantage with a statement about some other kind of advantage. We can drop this point, though.

[Deep6er]

1) I wouldn't say Counterbalance/Top and Standstill are mutually EXCLUSIVE, as much as they get along together, but don't really mesh very well. Also, I call bullshit on your statement that "competent" opponents break Standstill immediately. That's fucking horseshit. There have been many games where I've let Standstill sit in order to play more lands, or to let my hand slowly refill. I've won each one of those. "Competent" opponents will assess the situation, and do as the situation calls for and what they believe to be the best option at the time.

2) This deck operates differently than Landstill. You can't say the deck is suboptimal because you think Intuition is worse than Standstill. Regardless of how you put it, you HAVE TO accommodate Standstill in your deck. Whether or not you run "mediocre" (which I think is complete bullshit) cards like Mishra's Factory means that you are forced to build around Standstill.

Incidentally, if you're going to compare them to engines, you have to compare their faults as well.

Standstill Engine
Can be "turned off" with Aether Vial
Ineffective in the mirror

Intuition Engine
Get to three mana


Seems like it's a lot easier to "turn off" Standstill then it is to "turn off" Intuition. With the recent increase of both Landstill and decks like Dreadstill, the possibility of your opponent playing BETTER under a Standstill are increased. Whereas with Intuition, the only way to "turn off" the engine is to keep that player from reaching three mana. Certainly doable, but difficult for certain decks.

It's bullshit to call things like "not accommodating Standstill's demands" mistakes.

3) Actually, not really. Even when using Fact or Fiction to draw cards, you're still adding the cost of Fact or Fiction to whatever spells you play. You have to apply the rule to both cards, not just one because you feel like it. Also, you're argument makes no sense. Yes, nobody plays Opportunity, but how does that connect to Intuition?

4) Yes, drawing lots of cards is a powerful strategy. I know that. For fuck's sake, you're talking to the guy who played Solidarity for years. I fucking get it. However, in this deck, the tutor capacity of Intuition is just as strong as the pure draw power of other cards. The point that makes me play Intuition is that I'm not forced to play cards that force me to accommodate others. That's the primary reason why I think Intuition is a better fit for this deck.

[snip] - Bardo

[Obfuscate Freely]

1) I wouldn't say Counterbalance/Top and Standstill are mutually EXCLUSIVE, as much as they get along together, but don't really mesh very well. Also, I call bullshit on your statement that "competent" opponents break Standstill immediately. That's fucking horseshit. There have been many games where I've let Standstill sit in order to play more lands, or to let my hand slowly refill. I've won each one of those. "Competent" opponents will assess the situation, and do as the situation calls for and what they believe to be the best option at the time.
I qualified my assertion with the word "usually." There are few matchups in which Landstill is the beatdown, and unless that's the case, waiting out a Standstill to make land drops is likely going to benefit the Landstill player more than his or her opponent.

Exceptions to this are basically limited to games in which the Landstill player draws fewer lands than the other player, which may account for the experiences you've had. I don't have much to say about that, other than that a lot of Legacy players seem reluctant to play enough lands in their decks.


2) That's about as thinly veiled an insult as you've made Alix. Why not just come out and say "you suck because it isn't Landstill"? This deck operates differently than Landstill. You can't say the deck is suboptimal because you think Intuition is worse than Standstill. Regardless of how you put it, you HAVE TO accommodate Standstill in your deck. Whether or not you run "mediocre" (which I think is complete bullshit) cards like Mishra's Factory means that you are forced to build around Standstill.
Why can't I tell you the deck is suboptimal because I think one of the cards could be a better card? Yes, you would have to change the deck to accommodate Standstill, but I'm taking those changes into account when I tell you it would be an improvement.

Why did you quote the word "mediocre?" I never used it.

Incidentally, if you're going to compare them to engines, you have to compare their faults as well.

Standstill Engine
Can be "turned off" with Aether Vial
Ineffective in the mirror

Intuition Engine
Get to three mana
I like the list, but I think you forgot some of Intuition's faults.

vulnerable to graveyard hate
can't function as a tutor without there being multiples of a card, or a recursion engine
thins your deck of relevant cards
pumps your opponent's Tarmogoyfs
can't be fetched with Enlightened Tutor
can't be recurred with Argivian Find
gets countered by Disrupt
gets countered by Flash Counter
gets hit by In the Eye of Chaos
is more expensive to buy
has worse artwork

I think that's all of them, but I may have to edit this if I think of any other problems with the card. I love lists!


Seems like it's a lot easier to "turn off" Standstill then it is to "turn off" Intuition. With the recent increase of both Landstill and decks like Dreadstill, the possibility of your opponent playing BETTER under a Standstill are increased. Whereas with Intuition, the only way to "turn off" the engine is to keep that player from reaching three mana. Certainly doable, but difficult for certain decks.
There has been a recent increase in Landstill decks? I didn't know that. Dreadstill seems to be on the (rather baffling) rise, but it still represents a small fraction of most metagames.

Even so, I would rather have Standstills than Intuitions against either deck. If both your deck and your opponent's deck are designed to utilize Standstill, than neither player can really abuse the card. However, if one deck is built to utilize Intuition, the other will be free to use Standstill to its fullest. As you might imagine, I do not see that as a fair fight.


It's bullshit to call things like "not accommodating Standstill's demands" mistakes.
If not accommodating Standstill leads to you playing a deck with a less-than-optimal chance to win a tournament, then it is a mistake.


3) Actually, not really. Even when using Fact or Fiction to draw cards, you're still adding the cost of Fact or Fiction to whatever spells you play. You have to apply the rule to both cards, not just one because you feel like it. Also, you're argument makes no sense. Yes, nobody plays Opportunity, but how does that connect to Intuition?
I did apply the rule to both cards. Intuition costs :2::u:, plus whatever the cost of the recursion method you use is, before you have a chance to play something that affects the board. For ITF, this generally means :1::g: for Life from the Loam, and then :1::u: (and a land drop) to activate Academy Ruins. You also lose a draw step in there, but it should already be clear that Intuition is more expensive than Fact's :3::u:.

4) Yes, drawing lots of cards is a powerful strategy. I know that. For fuck's sake, you're talking to the guy who played Solidarity for years. I fucking get it. However, in this deck, the tutor capacity of Intuition is just as strong as the pure draw power of other cards. The point that makes me play Intuition is that I'm not forced to play cards that force me to accommodate others. That's the primary reason why I think Intuition is a better fit for this deck.
I seriously question whether Intuition's toolbox capability can possibly be as strong as the simple card advantage that Standstill and FoF provide. Historically, blue-based control decks have tended toward simple card draw over tutors, so why is this different?

What is this bit about accommodating others? Can you expand on that?

[landstill101]

I like the list, but I think you forgot some of Intuition's faults.

vulnerable to graveyard hate( yup and standstill loses when the opponent plays a treetop village)
can't function as a tutor without there being multiples of a card, or a recursion engine(95% of all legacy deck runs more than 1 of a good card)
thins your deck of relevant cards (That is why the deck is built to recur these cards, and if built right, uses intuition to actually draw 3 cards.)
pumps your opponent's Tarmogoyfs(it pumps your own up too)
can't be fetched with Enlightened Tutor(why in the world would u play elightened tutor in a deck just to fetch a card which is worthless unless you already have board advantage)
can't be recurred with Argivian Find(who here has actually heard of this card? seriously, its like saying that zodiac lion is an amazing card.)
gets countered by Disrupt(gimme a decklist which has done say top 50 in a big tourny that has this card in it for legacy.)
gets countered by Flash Counter(gimme a decklist which has done say top 50 in a big tourny that has this card in it for legacy.)
gets hit by In the Eye of Chaos(wow I can't believe you actually said this, it doesn't counter it, it just does a daze effect, which this spell STOPS MOST OF YOUR SPELLS TOO)
is more expensive to buy(this argument is irrevelant, because if you can spend tons on duels to make a 4c mana base but can't spend 10 dollars on an intuition, then obviously you have problems.)
has worse artwork(this is supposed to be funny, but it isn't)



This list is very funny, as it is shown up above I have added my thoughts to yours.

[Deep6er]

1) ...

2) It's important to remember that the deck is a sum of it's parts. If you were to make the necessary changes to switch the deck to support Standstill, I say that you would be making the deck functionally worse.

I quoted the word "mediocre" because you said that Mishra's Factory was decent. I think it's awful. So, I compromised with "mediocre". Then, I added that I think it's complete bullshit.

3)

1a) Intuition is only vulnerable to graveyard hate if you're finding something that requires recursion. If I find three Pernicious Deeds or Counterbalances, that's not vulnerable to graveyard hate.

2a) Irrelevant. There are multiples of every card that I want to tutor up. You're argument is pointless.

3a) Also irrelevant. If you die, it doesn't matter if you're deck is full of relevant cards. BECAUSE YOU'RE DEAD. Finding those cards now means that you don't die. Plus, you can recur those cards later, so it's moot.

4a) Big loss. Enlightened Tutor is awful. ...

5a) Which, by extension, pumps your Tarmogoyfs. Alternately, it could, you know, not. It kind of depends on the game state there.

6a) Argivian Find? ...

7a) Disrupt? Seriously dude. ...

8a) Flash Counter. Flash Counter. You know, when I mentioned my examples, they were legitimate, ...

9a) ...

10a) ...

4) Yeah, as you stated, Dreadstill (which shares similarities to Landstill) is on the rise. However, you're wrong about Standstill in those matchups. After all, you've just pitched a card for no reason. That card will have NO EFFECT ON THE GAME. Or, if it does, it'll be completely irrelevant because the player who has to break it (because he's losing) will just continue to lose.

5) ...There's no evidence that Landstill is strictly superior to It's the Fear. You're making shit up.

6) No. Since Intuition is versatile, you don't necessarily have to set up Life from the Loam. I rarely do. More often than not, I use Intuition to find answers. If I'm ahead, then I'll use it to lock the game. The point of the matter is that it's more versatile.

So, let's look at this.

Intuition for Deed + activate for 2 = 8
Fact or Fiction for Deed + activate for 2 = 9

Seems like clear mathematics to me. Incidentally, since we're assuming that the Fact or Fiction found you the Deed, it's unlikely you got anything else from that. So, you end with EXACTLY THE SAME NUMBER OF CARDS had you used Intuition.

7) That's fine. Questioning whether or not Intuition's toolbox is better than power draw is a relevant question. Tournament data will prove one way or the other.

However, historic track records lose their value over too long a period of time. If it wasn't for innovation, we'd all be playing the exact same deck with only a three to four card difference.

8) I've pointed it out before. You are forced to play cards that work well with Standstill in order to utilize Standstill effectively. Thus, it FORCES YOU TO ACCOMMODATE IT. You have to have some way of forcing your opponent to break the Standstill. Whether through a threat like Decree of Justice or Mishra's Factory, or a massive card quality buildup, you have to force your opponent to break it. You rely on your opponent for something. That's not a good plan. Standstill makes you do things that you wouldn't have had to do if you hadn't played Standstill. Is that clear enough?

[Rood]

Arguing to add in Standstills to this deck seems kind of pointless to me. You're saying to just play UBGW Landstill as oposed to It's the Fear. While the decks both have their pros and cons they are both very great decks and I don't see why you would advocate one deck over the other.

[Bardo]

Closed for a cool down period.

Reopened. Let's be cool here.

[Anusien]

I think part of the issue here is that ITF -Intuition and support, +Standstill and support is basically a different deck. There are already vehement arguments about which one of those better, so I would avoid making that argument here.

Obfuscate_Freely: Turning this into a Standstill deck is not strictly better. You are going to win and lose in different matchups; you may get a net gain, but you're not going to have gains across the board.

The biggest issue with Standstill is that it is a terrible card to dig for answers to an on-board Tarmogoyf. I prefer it in most other situations. One of the main issues with Intuition that I've found over the years is that it's too cute. It lets you make a lot of mistakes and forces you to jump through a lot of hoops to get what you want done. Recently I've tried to simplify the way I play and build decks because it allows fewer errors and makes a long tournament less physically demanding. This is sort of why I prefer 4 Counterbalance/Top to 3 whenever possible; means I have to do less work to win.

Plus, chaining Standstills is so very very dirty...

Edit: I would strongly recommend the basic Forest instead of the basic Plains if you expect much Dragon Stompy. Based on Threshold and (slightly less) Vorosh testing, having access to W in the matchup is less important because you need to hit both basic lands and another land and EE to actually EE away a regular Blood Moon. If you go turn 1 fetchland->Island, and they respond with Blood Moon, you're not going to win that game without a counter. If you have a Forest, it's far easier. Plus in the matchup you can occasionally lead by fetching out the Forest and playing Top (if you don't have Daze), and then any land will get you to Tarmogoyf. Basically, if you don't have the Forest, there are some games you can't win at all because you can't get your win conditions.

[Kadaj]

So, proceding along the line that adding Standstill would basically make this Vorosh-Still, or at least something close to it, why not at least find room for FoF? It doesn't have to replace Intuition, but I see no reason why it wouldn't be able to provide a layer of hard card-advantage in addition to the engine potential that running Intuition opens up. Is it a cheap card? No, but I can say from experience that in control decks capable of keeping the board relatively clean for most of the early to mid-game, Fact is absolutely nuts.

You could cut a single Intuition and say... an EE, or something to that effect, and fit two Facts in. If it were up to me, I'd cut the Intuition engine altogether and just run Fact in it's place, but it seems clear there's a strong body of opinion that believes that to be a bad idea, so why not attempt to get the best from both worlds?

[landstill101]

So, proceding along the line that adding Standstill would basically make this Vorosh-Still, or at least something close to it, why not at least find room for FoF? It doesn't have to replace Intuition, but I see no reason why it wouldn't be able to provide a layer of hard card-advantage in addition to the engine potential that running Intuition opens up. Is it a cheap card? No, but I can say from experience that in control decks capable of keeping the board relatively clean for most of the early to mid-game, Fact is absolutely nuts.

You could cut a single Intuition and say... an EE, or something to that effect, and fit two Facts in. If it were up to me, I'd cut the Intuition engine altogether and just run Fact in it's place, but it seems clear there's a strong body of opinion that believes that to be a bad idea, so why not attempt to get the best from both worlds?

It is a bad idea to take out intuition. Intuition makes the deck good, Fact or fiction is an ok draw spell that would force the deck to lose some of its bombs to put it in, there is no room to fit it in the deck. Taking out consistancy for more draw is kinda pointless.

[Deep6er]

@Anusien: You DO realize that you would have to bastardize the manabase in order to fit in cards that can fetch the Forest, right? Look at the fetchlands right now, and then look at the colors. It doesn't work. Heaths won't ever get you Underground Seas. That's why Plains is better.

@Kadaj: Then you would lose the versatility that Intuition gives you. You'd also fuck the curve something fierce. Seriously, Fact or Fiction does NOT serve the same purpose as Intuition. It's an inapplicable comparison.

[Kadaj]

That's precisely why I advocated a compromise, running 2 Facts instead of 4 and keeping the Intuition engine in tact. I really see no reason why that would be a bad thing, especially since contrary to what people seem to think, you would lose just about no consistency and gain far more power in the mid to late game.