Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo
----------------------------------------------------------------
Matchups
Matchups are sorted alphabetically. Not all decks have been included on this list, as some matchups will be similar to others. Based off of recent tournament results, these are the decks that a potential Dream Halls player should be prepared to face.
Aggro Loam: Favorable
Your opponent will have almost no chance of stopping you in game 1, unless you get a bad draw and get beaten to death. The only cards that you have to worry about are Chalice of the Void at 1, which will slow your digging down, and Burning Wish for Hull Breach or Reverent Silence. Chalice only slows you down, and Wish is itself a slow plan that you should be able to stop with either Thoughtseize or FoW. It is to your advantage to just go for the Dream Halls route, unless you know that you can protect Progenitus from a possible Chainer’s Edict, Perish, or other wishable removal spell.
Krosan Grip will be the name of the game in games 2 and 3. Ray of Revelation might also make a showing. If your opponent showed no sign of Burning Wish during game 1, and you want to assume that he does not actually have a Burning Wish in his deck, then you can simply side out a few pieces of the Halls combo and switch to Progenitus beat mode with disruption package backup. If Wish is still in the picture, then keep your options open. Spell Pierce or Duress are the only cards worth bringing in no matter what, but because Loam has very few cards that actually threaten your plan, you need not bring in many.
Boarding strategy: -1 Conflux, -1 Halls, -1 Vault, +3 Duress/Pierce
ANT: Favorable
It’s almost a strict race to the finish. You have to worry about FoW, Pierce, Duress, and perhaps a maindecked bounce spell. There is no reason to not go for the Dream Halls combo, unless you can get Progenitus out on turn 1; by the time you get him out on turn 2, you will already be winning by turn 4. At that point in time, you might as well try for the turn 3 or 4 Halls win.
In games 2 and 3, you can totally switch around your plan. I have found it quite effective to board out most of the Halls combo and add in both the Pierces and Duresses. Then you can just go for the Progenitus/Hellkite beat plan, which you can resolve by turn 3 most of the time, while sitting behind a shield of a whopping 16 disruption/counter spells. ANT, on the other hand, will be unable to so easily switch their strategy, and will have a highly unfavorable game 2 and 3. Why get rid of your combo if the matchup is a straight race? Because in doing so, you can double your disruption spells while ANT is pretty much stuck at their usual package. This gives your Progenitus a strong chance of ending the game while ANT fumbles around for its Storm count. Regardless, as a result of games 2 and 3, the match as a whole is in your favor.
Boarding strategy: -2 Conflux, -3 Ultimatum, -1 Halls, +2 Duress, +4 Spell Pierce
Belcher: Favorable
ANT is almost a strict race. Belcher, at least in game 1, is 100% a strict race. Unless the Belcher player wishes for Hull Breach, you just need to beat them to the finish. As long as you have 1 FoW or 1 Thoughtseize, you should be able to manage this; the probability works out in your favor of having either these cards by turn 2.
Games 2 and 3 are a bit of a toss up. If Belcher resolves a turn 1 Xantid Swarm, then they are going to be able to win the subsequent race (most of the time). If they do not side in the Swarms and instead bring Duress into the picture, then you have to worry about disruption. Basically, you do not know what the Belcher player will do; will they try and stop your combo, or try and protect their own? Because of Swarm, it is extremely foolish to rely on the Progenitus strategy in games 2 and 3. If that green critter gets out, your clock is ticking down, and Progenitus is not going to be able to race it. Adding in the Duress set will be quite helpful, as 11 disruption spells are going to be a challenge for Belcher to circumvent (especially if used judiciously). Just watch out for the surprise Empty the Warrens. If you were planning to FoW Belcher and then find yourself having to FoW a Warrens, you are going to be in serious trouble. Remember, however, the Ultimatum can keep you alive here for a turn if you do not have the full combo assembled. The same goes for Hellkite.
Boarding strategy: -1 Vault, -2 Progenitus, +2 Duress, +1 Hydroblast
Countertop: Unfavorable
So much countermagic. Counterspell, FoW, Daze, Spell Snare, Counterbalance, Hydroblast; this is but a sample of what you will face in this matchup. When combined with the Goyf/Rhox clock, you could be in serious trouble. Especially given that one or two Rhox swings tends to put the Countertop pilot at 20+ life, and out of range of a single turn combo kill. Make sure that you have a Progenitus back up plan in the works; even a simple Swords on their own Tarmogoyf can put them at over 20 life, and bring your lone Hellkite into range of Path or Swords. Remember, the Countertop player just needs one creature out to smash, and can hold 4+ counters in hand to deal with your combo. You have to invest far more in order to win.
The story is not much better after boarding. You will have even more spells to worry about, like Grip, Elemental Blast, Chalice, and others. Your best bet is likely ditching the Halls combo altogether. But what about the random ‘I win’ factor? Forget about it. If you dealt with 12-16 counters in game 1, expect 16+ in game 2 (or at least 12+ and some permutation of Grips and Extirpates). You will have a much better chance of resolving a Show and Tell on Progenitus then you will of resolving the whole combo; one takes up 8 slots. The other takes up 15. Meditate is valuable in this matchup, especially because at 3 CC it does not get countered by Countertop or Snare. Moreover, your clock is not that serious. Getting 4 extra cards can help bolster your arsenal to win a counterwar.
Boarding strategy: -1 Vault, -2 Halls, -2 Conflux, -3 Ultimatum, +2 Meditate, +2 Duress, +3 Pierce.
Dredge: Neutral
Another race, but this time you are guaranteed to get hit by disruption spells. Or rather, one spell: Therapy. You will probably get Therapied 3 times by turn 4 (2 if you are lucky). Guaranteed disruption, by virtue of excessive dredging, coupled with a blazing fast clock can be problematic in game 1. Don’t even think about the Progenitus beating plan; three turns is just not fast enough when the zombies are building for an assault.
Games 2 and 3 are slightly better. Unfortunately, unlike most decks in the format, you do not have any graveyard hate in your board. That’s the bad news. The good news is Dredge has very little to board in against you. You might have to worry about a Dread Return on Iona, perhaps a Ray of Revelation, and maybe a Chain of Vapor. But you don’t have to worry about much else. Thoughtseize is useless in this matchup, so get rid of all 4 of them in favor of Spell Pierce, which can be critical for stopping Return and Therapy. Propaganda is also immensely helpful in slowing the clock down. Shed some of the less useful cards (in addition to Thoughtseize, get rid of Vault, because it’s suicidal, and Progenitus, because you are not going to win the beatdown game) to improve your game 2 and 3 matchup.
Boarding strategy: -1 Vault, -2 Progenitus, -4 Thoughtseize, +4 Spell Pierce, +3 Propaganda.
Goblins: Highly Favorable
What differentiates this Aggro matchup from the Zoo matchup or the Merfolk matchup? Lack of answers. Quite simply put, there is almost no card that Goblins can use that can stop you. All you have to worry about is their clock. This means you do not have to use Thoughtseize to proactively remove threats, nor do you have to waste time getting a FoW to protect your combo; once you go off, you go off. Period. End of story. The Goblins clock is about as fast as the Zoo clock (turn 4 win), and your clock is approximately a turn 3 win, with consistency. Turn 4 if you want to be conservative. Obviously you do not under any circumstances want to go for the Progenitus plan, unless you can get him out on turn 1 (or turn 2 on the play). The monster is just not fast enough to race the horde.
Games 2 and 3 you will only have to worry about Red Elemental Blast, and perhaps Chalice. Some decks pack neither, in which case this is just a repeat of game 1. You can board in Propaganda to give you a huge clock extension, and you can add in a Hydroblast to slightly bolster your counterspell arsenal.
Boarding strategy: -4 Thoughtseize, +3 Propaganda, +1 Hydroblast
Lands (38/43): Neutral-Favorable
Game 1 is essentially a free win for you. The only card you need to worry about is Glacial Chasm, but even Chasm can only stop 5 of the 20 life loss as a result of your combo. Bring Progenitus onto the field (to avoid Maze of Ith shenanigans) and keep Chasm in the yard (FoW on Loam) to seal the game. You have a lot of time to set this up, or at least more than you would in other matches.
So why is this match only neutral? Games 2 and 3 can get ugly. Krosan Grip and Ray of Revelation are slightly annoying, but overall not that bad; there is nothing uniquely bad about the matchup just regarding these two cards. Zuran Orb is the problem child here. When used in tandem with an active Chasm, this will shut down your entire attack strategy and leave your opponent hanging at around 5 life but just out of reach. Do not ever let an Orb resolve. If you do, endless life gain and Chasm/Stadium/Cycle-land recursion will dash all hopes of victory. Thankfully, however, because Lands does not exactly pack redundant hatred, you should be able to get lucky in at least 1 of the 3 games and dash to the finish while your opponent fumbles around for a Chasm or Grip. For boarding you want to add in a pair of Duress and Pierce, the former for Grip and Orb, and the latter for Ray and Loam. This will give you 12 disruption spells to guarantee your success.
Boarding Strategy: -2 Progenitus, -1 Vault, -1 Petal, +2 Duress, +2 Spell Pierce
Merfolk: Highly Unfavorable
Your nightmare matchup. Fast clock combined with ample countermagic shield is a recipe for catastrophe to the aspiring combo player. Cursecatcher alone will slow Show and Tell down by at least 1 turn. Combine that with Daze and FoW and you have a serious wall of counterspells to pierce. Now, add on top of that Standstill, so the Fish player can draw into even more countermagic, and Jitte, to put them out of combo range, and you have yourself the classic nightmare matchup. There are three tricks to winning this match. First, don’t be scared. If you have FoW backup for your Halls, do not assume that your opponent has a FoW AND a Daze just because they have more than three cards in hand. You will miss your window of opportunity to win and learn in dismay that they did not even have the FoW, let alone 2 counterspells.
Second, don’t be stupid. Do not tap out to cast a Show and Tell if your opponent has a Cursecatcher in play. Do not forget that there are charge counters on a Jitte. Errors like these will cost you games, and they are easy to make against the already frightening Merfolk deck.
Third, pay attention to the Merfolk clock. Unlike Zoo and Goblins, aggro decks that consistently can muster a turn 4 kill, Merfolk tends to be a bit slower. If your opponent is having a slower start, then use your draw and tutor spells to find protection spells (FoW, TS) or redundancy (extra Show and Tell, Halls). Double Show and Tell is especially effective, especially when backed up with other spells. You cannot afford to go for this sort of redundancy in a Zoo matchup, because the clock is so much faster. But against Merfolk, it can be worth the wait.
Games 2 and 3 are worse than game 1. You will also have to face Hydroblast and Spell Pierce in addition to all the counters of your first game. Duress and Spell Pierce are your answers here. Unfortunately, it is hard to sideboard against Merfolk because you cannot just ditch a strategy (Progenitus or Halls) as in other matchups. This means you have to choose which you are going to use as your primary. I prefer Progenitus, as it renders their Hydroblasts ineffective; they are meant to counter Ultimatum, not Show and Tell.
Boarding Strategy: -2 Halls, -2 Conflux, -1 Vault, +2 Duress, +3 Spell Pierce
Zoo: Unfavorable
Maindeck answers, a fast clock, and a dangerous sideboard characterizes the Zoo matchup. The turn 4 clock of Goblins is made far more dangerous when you add in Pridemage to the mix. If he slips through into play, then you essentially have to switch to the Progenitus plan. Even this, however, might not be enough, especially if burn spells start flying at your face. While Harbili himself went 2-0 against Zoo in his tournament, this should not be viewed as representative of the matchup overall. In his first game, the Zoo player did not drop a plains and thus missed out on 3 critical points of Nacatl damage over the next few turns; this would have ended the game. Similarly, his opponent did not draw any enchantment removal in either game.
The first order of business in sideboarding is to lower your Thoughtseize and Vault count; these cards tend to kill you rather than help you. Duress comes in to deal with Grip, and Propaganda comes in to greatly increase your survival chances.
Boarding Strategy: -1 Vault, -3 Thoughtseize, -1 Progenitus, +2 Duress, +3 Propaganda
----------------------------------------------------------------
Conclusions
Dream Halls is a powerful combo deck, but Harbili’s build is not the end-all-be-all strategy. There have been similar Dream Halls showings since his win, many of which were slightly different builds. This should be debated and discussed in the post itself, and not leveled as an attack against the primer; I acknowledge that there is no BEST build. I merely am giving an explanation of one specific build.
I will post additional tournament information on this deck (And its variations) as they are presented in the thread.
-ktkenshinx-
Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo
----------------------------------------------------------------
Additional Builds & Tournament Appearances
Dream Halls
By Jaime Cano and Césat Fernández: GP Madrid 2010
2nd and 4th place respectively (same decklist)
Lands: 17
3 Ancient Tomb
1 Flooded Strand
5 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
Creatures: 4
4 Progenitus
Instants: 12
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Lim-Dul's Vault
Sorcery: 20
4 Conflux
4 Cruel Ultimatum
4 Ponder
4 Show and Tell
4 Thoughtseize
Artifacts and Enchantments: 7
3 Lotus Petal
4 Dream Halls
Sideboard: 15
2 Meditate
1 Rushing River
4 Spell Pierce
1 Wipe Away
2 Duress
3 Propaganda
2 Pithing Needle
------------------------------------------
Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo
Great Primer. I can see you put lots of work in it, so i am sorry i have to spoil that:
How often did you actually play this deck in a real tournament?
This
Quote:
3. With Conflux, find 1 Progenitus (Blue card), 3 Cruel Ultimatum (White, Green, and Black cards), and 1 Bogardan Hellkite (Red Card).
does not work because of Cruel Ultimatum's colors, so you should edit that line to a combo chain which works
Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo
Quote:
Rushing River: Sometimes you just need to bounce something ... or an early Reanimator target
I'm not sure I would board this in against reanimator, because like you say later in your primer, they would just reanimate Iona game 2/3 naming blue. I think it's much more worthwhile to board in extra duress/countermagic to prevent their reanimates and extirpates.
Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo
This is true, Cruel Ultimatum is BUR...
but the combo can still be achieved by getting the following:
Progenitus (Green), 2 Cruel Ultimatum (B and U), Conflux (W), and Bogardan Hellkite (R)
Then cast the Conflux for Cruel Ultimatum and 4 other pitch cards (prog's and confluxs).
then cast 3 Cruels and Hellkite for the win.
Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dorsch
Great Primer. I can see you put lots of work in it, so i am sorry i have to spoil that:
How often did you actually play this deck in a real tournament?
Thisdoes not work because of Cruel Ultimatum's colors
Then just switch Progenitus as the green card and the Ultimatum as the blue card. Then get another conflux as the white card?...
Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo
From countertop you must fear Pyroblasts more than Hydroblasts (UGrx versions)
Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo
Awesome primer. I wonder if the guys who placed well (Harbili and didn't someone do well at an SCG event?) would give us their thoughts. Is there an approaching consensus on what the best wincon package is?
Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dorsch
Great Primer. I can see you put lots of work in it, so i am sorry i have to spoil that:
How often did you actually play this deck in a real tournament?
I have not played this in a tournament, that is true. I did, however, test Halls in 25 sample 3-game bouts against each of the matchups listed. It is from this testing (none of which was done on Workstation) that my experience comes.
Quote:
Thisdoes not work because of Cruel Ultimatum's colors, so you should edit that line to a combo chain which works
I have edited this to reflect my oversight. Writing long primers tends to see one forget the little details like this; good catch.
Once the data from the most recent SCG event is released (the excel spreadsheet) then I will update this accordingly with that deck's matchups. Someone did indeed finish 28th of 117 at Dallas/Ft. Worth; his list is given below:
Dream Halls
By Dustin Buckingham
5 Island
4 Force of Will
3 Conflux
1 Echoing Truth
4 Thoughtseize
4 Ponder
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Polluted Delta
4 Dream Halls
3 Cruel Ultimatum
3 Lotus Petal
3 Ancient Tomb
1 Bogardan Hellkite
2 Underground Sea
4 Show and Tell
4 Misty Rainforest
Sideboard:
SB: 4 Progenitus
SB: 3 Diabolic Edict
SB: 4 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 Ravenous Trap
His build is extremely similar to Harbili's in most respects.
-ktkenshinx-
Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo
- One thing I noted in the replies to this thread and the old DH thread: People are too afraid to go for Show and Tell / Progenitus, some even to the point at which they don't want to play Progeitus at all: Yes it can be outraced. But that doesnt really matter, you win some games and lose some games, thats the basic thing about nearly every combo, you go for it and see if it is enough. I mean, don't do it against Goblins or Pox or when Prog clearly won't win the race but it is often giving you good odds.
ANT is an awesome deck which has the luxury of being able to cast Chant and have a 100% Combo, but usually Combo decks are based on taking risks - I've seen Mind's Desire for 12 fizzle and Mind's Desire for 1 win. DH has other advantages when compared to ANT. Some ANT versions even side in Dark Confidant or Xantid Swarm, because they HELP winning if you untap with them. Progenitus needs no help for that.
If you see Tropical Islands on the opponents side, just go for it.
They have a hard time countering a Show and Tell on turn 3 (make sure to have Petal or Tomb so you get around Daze), especially if you either Thoughtseized or have FoW ready. They will drop Goyf, you drop Progenitus and they will scoop. GG. But if you let the game go on and on to set up a perfect DH combo they will find more and more disruption every turn, maybe even Counterbalance with FoW and trinket Mage on Top.
It is often the same thing with Staxx. Even though they might have solutions for it, like Moat or Tabernacle/Geddon it will still be better to go for it than just waiting for them to drop Trinisphere and Chalice on 1/2 and Geddon you. Same with Landstill, but here it is better. If they have Moat or Wrath you get another shot with DH later, if they dont have it, you just got a free win.
- For what you get with the first Conflux:
a) If you are not worried about disruption (like free Krosan Grips): it doesnt really matter: you just get something like 2 additional Confluxxes, 2 Ultimatum, 1 Hellkite and it is more than easy from then on, because all the Confluxxes give you way more gas than you need. You can't do anything wrong.
b) If you are worried about disruption: First of all cast the first spell without passing priority.
In G2 if they play Green Mana they will often be waiting with Krosan Grip and thus it is best to lead with a Cruel Ultimatum so that you survive more turns if they Grip it. The Ultimatum will usually draw you more gas so you can combo again in one or two turns and it also usually buys you enough time to live until then - they probably just lost their complete hand and a creature and you gained 5 life. Furthermore the Ulrimatum will have wrecked their hand so that they won't disrupt again.
If you have no Ultimatum, but a Conflux you should play it safe and get another Dream Halls. Furthermore a Lim Duls Vault, two Conflux and a Cruel Ultimatum. If they let Conflux resolve without Gripping it then you have won because they don't have Grip. Cast Cruel Ultimatum to make absolutely sure you have won and go on as in G1. If they Grip it you will have another Dream Halls for the next turn and you will be able to cast Cruel Ultimatum from it.
Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo
hi
ive build this deck and the first question that came to my head was, what are we doing againts discard and blast those are the worst card right ? but then ive started to realize why not playing chalice of the void!!! it stop everything we fear except krosan grip im still wanderring if i will try this baby main or in the side board. of course the deck needs a little tweak i presume but that is the list im trying right now
key spell 8
4 dream hall
4 show and tell
the kills 12
4 progenitus
3 cruel ultimatum
1 all sun dawn
4 conflux
disrupt 8
4 force of will
4 thoughtseize
deck manipulation 11
4 brainstorm
3 impulse
4 lim dul's vault
mana 21
4 ancient tomb
4 chrome mox
3 underground sea
4 polluted delta
2 scalding tarn
3 island
1 swamp
side 15
2 wipeaway
2 hurklys recall
4 chalice of the void
2 duress
3 ravenous trap
2 propaganda
chalice does not just stop hate it win you game its excellent againts zoo tempo ***** and any kind of storm combo once its on the play for exemple they cannot sword their own creature to gain life...:tongue:
i think chalice should be at least considered
what are you thinking ?
Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo
I prefer the slightly more compact win condition of:
-1 hellkite
-3 cruel ultimatum
+1 tendrils of agony
+3 Open spots
1 Tendrils is all that is needed.
Dream halls--> conflux 4 times netting force + tendrils + 9 other cards. Play 4 of those 9 other cards. Impulse or Brainstorm into other spells. to pitch to play tendrils.
The one functionality I miss is playing cruel off of dream halls to draw into conflux.
Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo
Great primer, ktkenshinx. It's very thorough.
Quote:
If you have no Ultimatum, but a Conflux you should play it safe and get another Dream Halls. Furthermore a Lim Duls Vault, two Conflux and a Cruel Ultimatum. If they let Conflux resolve without Gripping it then you have won because they don't have Grip. Cast Cruel Ultimatum to make absolutely sure you have won and go on as in G1. If they Grip it you will have another Dream Halls for the next turn and you will be able to cast Cruel Ultimatum from it.
After Dream Halls hits play, you have priority cast Conflux. They either Grip in response or they don't.
- If they do, then you can choose to fetch something like Dark Ritual + Dream Halls to go off next turn.
- If they don't, then you'd have 4 cards + Conflux again, and then you have priority again with Dream Halls in play.
The point is that what you search for depends on whether they grip in response, right?
Quote:
Best win condition
There's no consensus. Harbili’s win package is pretty decent. There are no necessarily dead cards pre-conflux; Progenitus (and to a lesser extent Hellkite) can be S&T'd in, and Cruel Ultimatum gives you 7 cards to cast off Dream Halls. It's also worth noting that even though the deck deals at most 20 damage on the turn it combo's off, following up 2/3 CUs with Dragon and Progenitus is usually game. It's almost assuredly game postboard, because you can tutor up a bounce spell to get rid of any permanent.
Storm is not a great kill because you then need answers to Trinisphere and Canonist, while other kill conditions can slow roll 1 CU a turn. It's also harder to win if they've hit you a few times with RWM. Tendrils is dead pre-combo, and having Tendrils discarded leaves you without a win condition.
I've actually found the Goblins MU about as difficult as Zoo. Ports and Wastelands slow us down by a full turn, and if Goblins realizes it's up against combo, it can mulligan aggressively into fast hands.
In brief, I've also found that Landstill is a very easy MU because they have around 7-9 relevant cards (Counterspell, FoW, and some combination of Clique/Cunning Wish/random tech). Eva Green is generally a terrible MU - discard affects us much more than other combo decks, and they put down a reasonably fast clock. Rock is not as bad as Eva Green, but it depends on the build. Tempo Thresh is generally easy, but it depends on the draws. Lim Dul's Vault is their only spell snare target, and the only other relevant spells they have are Stifle, Force, and Vendilion Clique. I also didn't find Counter-top to be as bad as described, but I haven't playtested that matchup a lot, and the skill of the Counter-top player is obviously a big factor. Versions with Qasali Pridemage are very difficult, but Daze can be played around, and Spell Snare only counters Vault, which can be boarded out.
I'd like to make a case for Dark Ritual over Ancient Tomb and Lotus Petal. I fully understand the merits of Tomb, and am testing it in the place of some lands and Dark Rituals in my build. It's nice to open up some non-land slots and to not worry about card disadvantage from Ritual (I run fewer progenitus, so I also have more slots for lands). I like Dark Ritual because it gives you a full 8 cards that cast Dream Halls on turn three. It conveniently provides better protection against Daze. The downside is that you have 2 fewer cards for a turn 2 Show and Tell, but the chance of having acceleration + S&T + Progenitus/Combo in hand is small enough that the difference. Turn 3 seems to be the magical goldfish turn, because the first 2 turns are usually spent cantripping. It doesn't necessarily make you more reliant on Underground Sea because you can run more basics in the Ancient Tomb slots. Also, if you run 20-ish lands, Ritual can be boarded out in control MUs.
Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo
Nice Primer but awful list. I don't give a shit it has won a big tourney or not. My version of the deck plays 20 lands + 4 petals + 6 cantrips + 3 tops. Even with this, I have hard time finding my mana in some MUs (Canadian Thresh and Eva Green to start with). Reducing the land count to 17 and relying on Show and Tell that much is really not the way to go. Against discard, it has absolutely no chance neither since it plays no card advantage and no top.
Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo
Has anyone considered Searing Wind as an alternate source of large damage? It deals 10, and it cuts down on the steps required:
1) Cast DH
2) Cast Conflux for CU, CU, Conflux, Searing Wind, Progenitus
3) Discard Progenitus to cast Conflux, getting Conflux, Prog, Prog, CU, All Suns Dawn.
4) Discard PRog for CU.
5) Discard CU for CU.
6) Discard Conflux for Searing Wind (for the win)/All Sun's Dawn (if any steps were countered).
And you can always just go nuts, if necessary :)
Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Maveric78f
Nice Primer but awful list. I don't give a shit it has won a big tourney or not. My version of the deck plays 20 lands + 4 petals + 6 cantrips + 3 tops. Even with this, I have hard time finding my mana in some MUs (Canadian Thresh and Eva Green to start with). Reducing the land count to 17 and relying on Show and Tell that much is really not the way to go. Against discard, it has absolutely no chance neither since it plays no card advantage and no top.
You are too harsh. This deck has proven itself, and if your list isn't competitive, don't blame it on this list.
That said, I play 25 lands and 3 Mox Diamonds. I also think that the combo shouldn't need Show and Tell to go off. If majority of the time you just use Show and Tell to drop a fatty, I feel you could as well drop the Halls and its massive support package and play more consistent S&T deck.
In order to reliably cast Dream Halls, land count should be 20 or above and include at least four copies of Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors.
I also dislike Force of Will because of the card disadvantage. Like Maveric78 said, there's no real card advantage going on here. I decided not to play Fow for now, since it takes an invaluable card from your hand and I already have had problems comboing when I have Dream Halls but have cantripped/used all the coloured cards and cannot cast Conflux. This adds up when you are facing discard. By removing Fow you could replace Ponders with Tops and improve immediately the discard matchups. It also makes playing Mystical tutor even more appealing. In last tournament I won majority of the games by tutoring Conflux at the end of opponents turn and during my turn dropping Dream Halls. I understand tutor being more card disadvantage, but I don't think that this deck even needs Fow while tutor drastically improves your chances of having business in hand while playing Halls.
Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo
Some notes:
- I consider cutting S&T a huge mistake, reasons has been expressed by others already.
- The smallest possible kill with the largest number of Progenitus looks good,
to make S&T stronger.
- Cutting FoW is a huge mistake in my opinion, card advatange is not everything, if they drop a Pridemage or something it can screw you badly. Fow helps here.
- If you dont go for the fastest possible kill like the orginal list, say aim for a turn 5 kill, Ancestral Visions is a great tool. As its nice to cast of Halls in order to find Conflux and it lets you recover from discard / whatever. If so you would need additional ways to survice to that point though. Concentrate can also be considered with the proper acceleration. Cast it on turn 3 to set up the turn 4 combo.
- I also thought about Flash of Insight as it can be discarded for Halls, gives ca and also finds the second piece. Requires a bunch of blue and UU in that turn though.
Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hopo
You are too harsh. This deck has proven itself, and if your list isn't competitive, don't blame it on this list.
I never said that.
FoW is a necessary evil. Not to protect your combo because it does it quite unefficiently (since you'd need 5 cards to combo), but as a versatile universal turn 0 to turn infty solution. It's also great to fight against random hate after playing Conflux, along with Thoughtseize. As I said earlier, the best protection spells for the combo are Duress/Thoughtseize and Spell Snare. The first one deals proactively with everything, but it's empties your hand which is bad. The second one is the answer to every non split second and non counterspell hate : hate bears, Qasali, counterbalance, hymn, mana denial (smallpox/sinkhole). Spell Pierce is good too.
Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo
Instead of Fow I've been playing Cabal Therapy. But I must admit that Rector version plays quite differently and benefits massively from therapy. I'm advocating one-mana discard spells as primary protection.