sNOw Painter

After looking at the latest RUG Snow Painter builds and other Oko decks, some thoughts occured to me:

1) Painter's Servant makes Natural Order fetch any creature, including Griselbrand or Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

2) Progenitus is much better in an Oko-heavy meta than Emrakul, Marit Lage or most other threats because it can't be Elked, it can't be Karakased, it can't be stolen, and it can't be chumped. It just has T: destroy target planeswalker. It answers Oko no matter what their board state.

3) Elks make good NO fodder

4) NO fights through a completely different axis than Grindstone. They can have anti-mill, Collector Ouphe, Phyrexian Revoker, or Disenchant and none of that helps against NO.


Shell for a deck:


//Creatures: 20
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Gilded Goose
4 Painter's Servant
4 Ice-Fang Coatl
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Trinket Mage
1 Eternal Witness
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
1 Griselbrand
1 Progenitus

//Planeswalkers: 3
3 Oko, Thief of Crowns

//Artifacts: 6
3 Arcum's Astrolabe
3 Grindstone

//Spells: 11
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Brainstorm
3 Natural Order

//Lands: 20
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Prismatic Vista
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
2 Snow-Covered Forest
2 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Swamp

//Sideboard: 15
4 Force of Will
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Veil of Summer
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Tormod's Crypt


Maybeboard:
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Questing Beast
Tarmogoyf
Ohran Viper
Plague Engineer
Terastodon
Craterhoof Behemoth

Oooh Jakobian went 3-0 with natural order painter into Iona. I definitely recommend iona, it's a lock with painter. I'll see if he's got the list still.

The list is somewhat dubious against Chalice, but new cards have fixed this (green value dudes >1 cmc and Oko +1) enough to where an NO will just beat Chalice - though I’d be wishing out Archon of Valor’s Reach to be sure (cutting down a Progenitus or Grisel). The Trinket Mage is a bit egregious, and I’ve not seen any evidence that this has been a good idea since ~2011; I think it’s likely impossible to demonstrate that it can outperform a Karn (which has the added benefit of giving itself slots by pushing the tutor target to the board). Karn also beats Chalice while Trinket needs to find exactly EE to not play right into it.

Coatl and Uro can stall Delver-types, but you‘re generally going to be playing pretty hard into countermagic. Using Oko [+1] against Delver‘s dudes isn‘t going to fix any problems as you lack the removal backup, so I‘d question the effectiveness of using [+1] on self when behind or [+2] into pass.

You‘re taking the 4c value pile and adding in GSZ, self-discard [mana dorks], and high variance draws [Painter/Grindstone] - so you‘re now losing that matchup. The moment you‘re adding in Painter with green, you kinda need to have 4x Veil main. You‘re cutting Grindstone to 1x main at most, 1x board and having a few Karn grab it. You can clean up the bad drawsteps a little bit by doing this, but you‘re still doing very different things with the green stuff (dorks, NO/GSZ, NO targets), and they won‘t interact all that favorably. You‘re ending up with a hybrid that does both the value thing and the Painter thing worse, without much gained. You‘re also still losing rather decisively to the card SnT, and that‘s not fixable while remaining hybridized.

Painter for green makes it possible to go GSZ --> Trinket Mage --> Grindstone. Kinda nifty.

Iona seems good. Forgot it's a hard lock with Painter.

I like Karn. Maybe 2-3 copies, have to be careful with the curve. It reduces variance though also reduces explosiveness (no more turn 3 goldfishes), which means I can't race combo and get punished for having FoW in the SB instead of main.

Maybe..

Main:
-3 Grindstone
-1 Trinket
-1 Witness
-1 Grisel
+2 Karn
+1 Iona
+3 Veil

SB:
+1 Archon of Valor's Reach
+1 Grindstone
+1 other Karn target (e.g. Lattice, EE, Coating)
-3 Veil

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Barook

Painter for green makes it possible to go GSZ --> Trinket Mage --> Grindstone. Kinda nifty.

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Yeah if it wasn't clear that was the reason for 1-of Trinket. So I could GSZ/NO into Grindstone. You choose target on resolution, so if they kill Painter in response you can just get something else (you won't need Grindstone then).

Eternal Witness was to GSZ into Natural Order or Oko or Painter (if a previous one was countered/killed).

The idea was to use the 4x GSZ as a tutor for basically anything in the deck, thereby reducing variance, on top of having the usual toolbox.

Sylvan safekeeper I think is worth one spot.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kinda

Sylvan safekeeper I think is worth one spot.

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Protecting what? There‘s also a pretty big issue with rushing out snow-basics, sacrificing them, and also relying on Ice-Fang as your removal (count to 3 for deathtouch).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fox

Protecting what? There‘s also a pretty big issue with rushing out snow-basics, sacrificing them, and also relying on Ice-Fang as your removal (count to 3 for deathtouch).

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Painter but good point on the lands...er...spellskite I suppose could be gsz'd for.

One more issue: NO cannot grab Grisel. While the Painter workaround for Grisel off NO is cute, this ends poorly. You put NO on the stack and lose the Painter [either to removal or having nothing other than Painter to sac], and now you‘re walking into dead topdecks of Grindstone and Grisel. I‘d stick to the naturally green hardcastables (Questy Besty or Archon; the latter is likely better as it can beat a Gurmag or Smasher and block a Delver/Borrower).

NO into craterhoof behemoth kills if you have to end it right now. You run 20 creatures (18 that you actually cast) idk if that is enough. Maybe some strix to up the creature count then .

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HdH_Cthulhu

NO into craterhoof behemoth kills if you have to end it right now. You run 20 creatures (18 that you actually cast) idk if that is enough. Maybe some strix to up the creature count then .

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Build closer to Opposition with SnakeElfDruid (aka SED, aka Coiling Oracle) if that's what you're going for. This deck has more reliable [durdling] plans for the mana ramp with the printing of Uro. SED is not only on-color, but playing it is far more likely to generate the correct line of play after resolving Oko - an immediate [+1] on self (many games with Oko are lost b/c of the failure to convert a deathtoucher into a 3/3 in favor of a meaningless food token).

At the end of the day Hoof is a winmore card; there are very few games where you'd need to 1-shot someone when you can so effortlessly steamroll them with 1-card combos like Uro and Oko. More likely to lock up a win by saying "cannot cast card type x" with Archon. The SnT matchup is also pretty unwinnable, and dumping Hoof into play on their turn (off SnT) is meaningless, whereas dumping in "can't cast Cunning Wish" might steal a game.

It's really important to recognize and address profound deficits at deck construction, and every card you add to this deck idea has to run through the "how is this helping my SnT matchup" filter. You don't have to play a single game with this deck to understand just how devastating the auto-losing to a major archetype is going to be.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fox

More likely to lock up a win by saying "cannot cast card type x" with Archon.

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What about "cannot cast any spells" like Iona, Shield of Emeria, since Painter's Servant has already made everything green.

Iona is also obvious good against SnT (name blue), much better than Griselbrand that may dig you into a bunch of dead draws.

There is the risk that Painter gets killed in response (Veil helps stop this), but if NO resolves you pretty much win on the spot. I think "7/7 flying, opponent can't cast spells" is high enough payoff to risk blowout to removal on Painter, and worth adding defense for that plan at the cost of 1 dead spot in the main.

Other than Veil, what cards would best support this plan?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fox

It's really important to recognize and address profound deficits at deck construction, and every card you add to this deck idea has to run through the "how is this helping my SnT matchup" filter.

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Ice-Fang Coatl ambushes an attacking Griselbrand (can chump Emrakul but deathtouch is unlikely after annihilator). That seems relevant over SED, which just durdles lands.

Astrolabe already fills that role of "turns into 3/3". Grindstone and Servant can too. The combo pieces synergize with Oko, which should reduce variance and was the point of playing Oko and Painter together. Oko can even Legerdemain the Painter to steal opponent's best threat, since Painter doesn't care who the controller is for the combos to work. Seems like good synergy!

Trinket Mage as GSZ into Grindstone seems good enough at variance reduction that I want to keep at least 1 Mage and 1 Stone maindeck. Mage can also turn into Elk.

I think Iona's upside is good enough to risk it maindeck game 1. If NO resolves you win. Once you reveal Iona they have no window to interact. If they respond to NO by killing Painter, you just get Progenitus instead. Sure that leaves you with dead draws in the deck, but Proggy puts them on a 2-turn clock so there aren't many draw steps left. If opponent has too much disruption for Painter + NO, Iona can be boarded out for Archon.


//Creatures: 18
3 Noble Hierarch
1 Gilded Goose
4 Painter's Servant
4 Ice-Fang Coatl
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Trinket Mage
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Progenitus

//Planeswalkers: 5
3 Oko, Thief of Crowns
2 Karn, the Great Creator

//Artifacts: 4
3 Arcum's Astrolabe
1 Grindstone

//Spells: 14
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Brainstorm
3 Veil of Summer
3 Natural Order

//Lands: 20
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Prismatic Vista
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
2 Snow-Covered Forest
2 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Swamp

//Sideboard: 15
4 Force of Will
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Grindstone
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Archon of Valor's Reach
1 Reclamation Sage


This build should reduce some of the dead slots.

4x Painter's Servant has value with Grindstone (win the game), Natural Order-> Iona (win the game), Veil of Summer (hexproof + cantrip), Oko, Thief of Crowns (turn to Elk or use to steal opponent's threat), Green Sun's Zenith-> Trinket Mage -> Grindstone (win the game). That's enough synergy that it should justify 4 copies main without seeming like a dead card.

Grindstone is down to just 1 slot main (tutorable with GSZ-> Trinket), the other can be gotten with Karn. It can be Elked if needed.

Green durdle dorks are never dead as they can be NO fodder or Oko fodder on top of ramp.

Prog and Iona are the only real dead draws (2 cards). We have Brainstorm to put them back, Prog pitches to FoW, and Iona can be replaced with Archon postboard.

The deck also has 17 cantrips (Brainstorm, 7 bodies with +1 card, Astrolabe, Veil) and 10 tutors (GSZ, NO, Karn, Trinket), so that should help with variance reduction as well.