[Deck] Sadistic Sacrament

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers...5124&type=cardhttp://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers...5632&type=card

Updated:11/28/2015

Goal: eliminate opponents ability to win. Bridge stops most creature decks, Sadistic sacrament removes any problematic removal for bridge. Chalice and discard slow combo decks until you can hit them with a liliana / sadistic.

Ive tested this deck and I like it a lot. I'd really like help optimizing it and get some feedback.

Exile spells - 4
4 Sadistic Sacrament

Discard - 7
4 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek

Removal - 13
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Toxic Deluge
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Snapcaster Mage

Draw - 3
3 Sylvan Library
1 Bottled Cloister

Lock Pieces - 9
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Jace, The Mind Sculptor

Lands - 24
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
1 Island


SB: 2 Cranial Extraction
SB: 2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
SB: 4 Hymn to Tourach
SB: 2 Pernicious Deed
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Krosan Grip


Cards for consideration

Bitter Ordeal
Cursed Scroll
Neverending Torment

Gatherer search

Matches

Grave yard decks (dredge, manaless dredge, reanimator) are generally favorable at least in my experiences. The few outs they have to bridge are easily removed with sadistic sacrament. Chalice shines in the reanimator match and dredge as it slows them down significantly in addition to the discard available.

Delver matches are fairly good with exception of shard less / team america. Most delver decks don't have main deck answers for bridge. Their mana base is weak. Against RUG i actually removed all of the tropicals with 1 sadistic sacramnt to cut them off from green and it was easy from there. It is important that you mulligan correctly to have a faster hand so you can empty it and take advantage of bridge.

Sneak And show: really good since bridge wrecks them game one. You can put it into play off a show and tell. Some lists don't even run an answer for it post board.

ANT: chalice, and discard are effective at slowing them down till you can land a sadistic sacrament. Many lists only run 1 tendrils so its game if you can resolve it. TES and lists with burning wish are more difficult because of the additional outs. Burning wish can get a card removed with sadistic sacrament.

Enchantress: typically low threat count and gets punished hard by chalice.

Miracles: generally favorable depending. They can still draw well and make it difficult to land what you need. Mentor and entreat can end the game very fast if you struggle to locate a bridge. Generally the only issue I had with this matchup was jace the mind sculptor, BUT since I've added maelstrom pulse to take care of planes walkers it has not been an issue. Sadistic sacrament can remove their red mana sources to cut them off of blood moon, wear/tear. Council's judgement and engineered explosives are the only other threats I typically encounter.

Dark Depth's Variants: They can be fast but if you can wasteland them and surgical (game 2) that can often be enough to secure a victory. RG combo lands is slightly harder because of the wasteland lock but its possible especially with snap casters. Their only removal is krosan grip out of the board. If they are dredging they can mill some and you can remove others with sadistic.

Jund: Exile abrupt decay, chalice on 2 to stop loams / punishing fires / creatures. Watch for Liliana's.

The bad matches

Generally decks with a lot of threats / removal / multiple win conditions. I'm sure there are more than listed below but they are not coming to mind.

Shard less / team america: main deck abrupt decays with some tempo can that be enough to end a game quickly.

Painter: not terrible but not easy. 2 Win conditions. Must stop the painter combo first, then lock them out of beatdown mode while dodging blood moon effects.

Aluren: similar to painter. Stop the combo, stop the aggro, dodge counterpsells. Decay doesn't hit aluren. It didn't help that i wasn't familiar with this match.

Pox: idk what happened it just seemed to be more difficult that I wanted. This deck is mana hungry so anything that attacks the mana base is gonna be tough. Even though you can reliably get basics into play sinkhole and smallpox hurt.

Goblins: they are fast and sometimes you don't have enough time to stick a bridge and remove their artifact hate.

Death and Taxes: Can be bad since this deck needs to hit 3-4 mana to really get going. Early mother of runes can be a problem because they can poke you down with thalia and get though bridge since you can't empty your hand. You really need to hit a toxic deluge and remove their flicker wisps to be successful.




I'm really impressed with the deck so far however It hinges heavily on drawing bridge. I added bottled cloister to help and it does.

Adding blue was worth it because Snapcaster is a cheap way to recur either your removal, discard, or exile depending on the matchup. 1 of Jace is really good just because he fits the theme so well in denying them access to their outs.

I'd really like to get some input and ideas and possibly make this into a working deck.

Smells like Lantern, but with better cards. I like it.

MD Surgical/Extirpate is a way to cheaply force Archive Trap. If you could line those up with Bitter Ordeal, that would be sexy as fuck. Too hard to reliably cast all three of those in 1 turn though. You would have to catch them fetching before your EOT step to really make Trap + Ordeal work.

Obviously there's discussion of colors. B/G gives you Decay and Library, but obviously running U gives you FOW/Brainstorm/etc. This kills the Chalice plan though.

Painful Truths is an option here, since you're splashing for blue in the SB you can make it a draw 3.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jrsthethird

Smells like Lantern, but with better cards. I like it.

MD Surgical/Extirpate is a way to cheaply force Archive Trap. If you could line those up with Bitter Ordeal, that would be sexy as fuck. Too hard to reliably cast all three of those in 1 turn though. You would have to catch them fetching before your EOT step to really make Trap + Ordeal work.

Obviously there's discussion of colors. B/G gives you Decay and Library, but obviously running U gives you FOW/Brainstorm/etc. This kills the Chalice plan though.

Painful Truths is an option here, since you're splashing for blue in the SB you can make it a draw 3.

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Unfortunately you cannot force an archive trap, at least not with surgical. Surgical allows you to search not your opponent.

One main reason to include BG was for decay. Its important that you have access to abrupt decay because you absolutely need your removal to hit the intended creatures. Against decks like rug you can get can get behind if they counterspell removal.

Bitter ordeal was cut after a few games because i couldn't get it together work well. Its harder to coordinate than you think and just planning to use fetches and wasteland isnt reliable. Often times i found that it was just an extra sadistic sacrament and currently im only running 3. So unless i included something else to synergize with bitter ordeal ill just add a 4th sadistic sacrament. I considered something drastic like armageddon + bitter ordeal (would be epic) but that would require a clean board which is fairly easy but then if i'm not able to recover fast enough my ensnaring bridge might not save me because cards can get backed up in my hand.

Im not sure what you want to include blue for? Force of will seems unnecessary since the deck sideboards into mass discard / exile.

I think painful truths is ok. Ive heard other decks talk about it but it doesnt seem that good. Pretty sure sylvan library is better. Because the deck runs 3 colors sdt comes to mind but that clashes with chalice.

Significantly Updated deck list. Included more information on matches. Still looking for help / suggestions.

Life from the Loam is an obvious inclusion. It has synergy with Wasteland + Liliana + Jace + (to some extent anyways) Sylvan Library.

I'm not sure if Snapcaster Mage is worth running. I mean if it's just to recur cards, you could consider Regrowth, considering that A) you aren't forced to cast the targeted spell right away, and B) it recurs *everything*, even planeswalkers. I realize Snap has the added benefit of Flash and being a 2/1 is occasionally helpful, but, ehh..

Along with Loam, a couple man-lands might be okay. Mishra's Factory, Faerie Conclave, Creeping Tarpit... and I'd imagine that there's going to be a B/G man-land in the next set.

Loam doesn't force you to go all-in on the graveyard plan, but there are other things to start considering within a Loam BUG shell: Entomb/Intuition, Volrath's Stronghold, Engineered Explosives + Academy Ruins, etc.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wcm8

Life from the Loam is an obvious inclusion. It has synergy with Wasteland + Liliana + Jace + (to some extent anyways) Sylvan Library.

I'm not sure if Snapcaster Mage is worth running. I mean if it's just to recur cards, you could consider Regrowth, considering that A) you aren't forced to cast the targeted spell right away, and B) it recurs *everything*, even planeswalkers. I realize Snap has the added benefit of Flash and being a 2/1 is occasionally helpful, but, ehh..

Along with Loam, a couple man-lands might be okay. Mishra's Factory, Faerie Conclave, Creeping Tarpit... and I'd imagine that there's going to be a B/G man-land in the next set.

Loam doesn't force you to go all-in on the graveyard plan, but there are other things to start considering within a Loam BUG shell: Entomb/Intuition, Volrath's Stronghold, Engineered Explosives + Academy Ruins, etc.

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My hesitation about running some sort of loam engine is that if you mill it the card is gone... for the most part. Since this deck relies on making sure you draw certain cards like bridge and sacrament it would be very difficult to find what you need if there were copies lying in the grave.

I really like the loam engine but I don't think it adds that much. This deck doesn't take advantage of lands enough to really make it worth it. I do see the benefit in speeding up the deck but what do you suggest cutting to make it work? I like the idea of mox diamond because it would synergies with loam AND reduce hand size for decks that are faster where I struggle to empty my hand. Chrome mox might be better for cards that get stuck in my hand. It would provide an outlet for the discard spells after chalice for 1 hits.

If you are running a loam engine the deck could possibly benefit from a punishing fire engine too. I tried running fire and groves without loam and it didn't work. It's possible if we are cutting blue you can add red in its place. I also though about adding red because it gives you access to mizzix's mastery an alternative to snap caster. No body but cheaper in the case of sadistic sacrament.


Snapcaster is pretty good because it does provide a body but I do understand what you are saying about regrowth. It could get anything and i'd be able to drop blue at that point. I don't use much blue to begin with and splashing blue for a solitary jace is most certainly not worth it.


After playing several matches the deck does has some issues with "brew" decks especially with high threat counts. The one brew i ended up losing to ran jace, the living guildpact along with vensur, mangara, and karakas. In the board it also had nevinyrral's disk. I could have drawn better in one of the games but having that many cards to remove since they all pose a threat to bridges was very difficult. The main problem in that match was the 4 CMC planes walker. I do play maelstrom pulse for those main deck but it just wasn't enough with everything else.

Ideally, if the deck could be sped up without hurting itself due to chalice and possible include some other ways to deal with planes walkers that's something that this deck could really benefit from.

Dealing with planeswalkers can be achieved with Maelstrom Pulse or similar targeted removal, creatures and man-lands, etc. You definitely have a fair number of options available.

Regarding Loam: adding 1-2 copies is all upside, and doesn't mean you have to run the full playset or devolve into a Loam-centric engine. You are answering creatures primarily via Ensnaring Bridge and Toxic Deluge/Liliana, so Loam would just be a nice mid/late-game method of ensuring board position.

Running a single copy of Raven's Crime has synergy with Loam and would help a lot against control strategies, functioning as a pseudo-Mind Twist.

I think before you go further, you should decide if you want to stay BG or if you want to splash a third color. I think there is a strong BG midrange/control deck to be made, and staying in these colors has some advantages over going into 3+. This would be a deck that isn't quite Jund, isn't quite '43 Lands', and isn't quite Nic Fit. I think using stuff like planeswalkers + Ensnaring Bridge + powerful green permanents like Sylvan Library could be formidable.


But you could definitely dip into a third color for sideboard options -- Red and White both offer some great options.

Does Chalice really contribute to the game plan? It has some uses, sure, but overall the synergy with Sacrament and Bridge is very low. I would consider cutting it. It would also open up Brainstorm which is amazing at finding lock pieces and shuffling away duplicate lock pieces and obsolete Discard.

Pithing Needle seems to be a decent card in this with the problems you described. It stops Wastelands and is a solution for Planeswalkers. Also various other uses.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wcm8

Dealing with planeswalkers can be achieved with Maelstrom Pulse or similar targeted removal, creatures and man-lands, etc. You definitely have a fair number of options available.

Regarding Loam: adding 1-2 copies is all upside, and doesn't mean you have to run the full playset or devolve into a Loam-centric engine. You are answering creatures primarily via Ensnaring Bridge and Toxic Deluge/Liliana, so Loam would just be a nice mid/late-game method of ensuring board position.

Running a single copy of Raven's Crime has synergy with Loam and would help a lot against control strategies, functioning as a pseudo-Mind Twist.

I think before you go further, you should decide if you want to stay BG or if you want to splash a third color. I think there is a strong BG midrange/control deck to be made, and staying in these colors has some advantages over going into 3+. This would be a deck that isn't quite Jund, isn't quite '43 Lands', and isn't quite Nic Fit. I think using stuff like planeswalkers + Ensnaring Bridge + powerful green permanents like Sylvan Library could be formidable.


But you could definitely dip into a third color for sideboard options -- Red and White both offer some great options.

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So after reading what you had to say and thinking about it I ported the deck to Aggro loam. It's interesting. I like the explosiveness but idk if its really any better. What i mean is does the explosiveness actually help all that much... I would really like to try different colors I'm just not sure where to go with it.

I had to cut out some of the discard and it hurt. The sideboard i tested with was untouched which is a big issue. However I felt like the deck was weaker game 1 than the version without it. I think i'll try a much more tame version like 2 of somewhere in the main and only 2, no excel. I put the rough draft below for anyone who is interested.

4 Sadistic Sacrament
4 Thoughtseize
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Punishing Fire
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Life from the Loam
3 Sylvan Library
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond

23 lands
1 Badlands
1 Barren Moor
2 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Maze of Ith
1 Swamp
1 Taiga
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Tranquil Thicket
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Wooded Foothills



As I was typing this response I realized that there is a way to get more saistic sacraments main deck. You run a wishboard. A wishboard would also solve the issue of what to do with my sideboard because i've been undecided on it.

I really liked your idea of retrace cards like raven's crime. Someone also mentioned worm harvest.

I'll have to think more on it but i'll post when i have something constructive to say about it. Any ideas for a wishboard?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tao

Does Chalice really contribute to the game plan? It has some uses, sure, but overall the synergy with Sacrament and Bridge is very low. I would consider cutting it. It would also open up Brainstorm which is amazing at finding lock pieces and shuffling away duplicate lock pieces and obsolete Discard.

Pithing Needle seems to be a decent card in this with the problems you described. It stops Wastelands and is a solution for Planeswalkers. Also various other uses.

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TLDR: Yes chalice is amazing. It's like sadistic sacrament on a mass scale. Matches like burn would be unwinable otherwise.

You raise a good point. When thinking of cards to add its imperative that they add to the game plan. Chalice adds a great deal In fact its huge. The first version of the deck didn't include it but I ran into problems against decks with spells, so combo decks and especially burn. Sadistic sacrament is great but there are only 4 of them that can be included. Chalice functions as a pseudo sadistic. In many way's its much better. Look at burn for example. Without chalice the burn matchup is unwinable. there are too many threats and most of them are not stopped by bridge. Chalice on 1 against burn is like a sadistic sacramanet for half their deck but better. If i actually sadisticd all of their 1 cmc cards, they would have an increased chance at getting the 2 cmc cards. chalice forces them to draw dead cards and it hits many answers itself.

Against a deck like RG combo lands while their wincon is usually dark depths which is easily stopped by bridge in game one, getting a bridge out may be difficult if they are able to recur loam. Chalice on 2 in that match stops them from functioning game 1. Game 2 you need a sadistic sacrament to deal with their krosan grips but none the less its still great.

Chalice is really only weak to abrupt decay and krosan grip for obvious reasons.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by apple713

So after reading what you had to say and thinking about it I ported the deck to Aggro loam. It's interesting. I like the explosiveness but idk if its really any better. What i mean is does the explosiveness actually help all that much... I would really like to try different colors I'm just not sure where to go with it.

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A few responses:

1. Explosiveness is good, and in fact a good reason to even consider running a non-Blue deck in Legacy, given that you then miss out on counterspells and cantrips. Mox Diamond as a ramp option is a good card to take advantage of running a higher land-count and LftL, and will help you drop stuff earlier like a turn 1 Chalice on 1 -- a play that often yields victory against quite a few archetypes.
2. That said, I don't think you are gaining all that much by adding Punishing Fire to your deck. You are destabilizing your mana base in a pretty major way to become a weaker version of existing decks. And for what? A card that helps against smaller creature decks? You already have access to cards like Toxic Deluge, Liliana, and it seemed like your original goal was to utilize Ensnaring Bridge. I just really don't think PFire is doing all that much for you that can't already be accomplished with the original idea of staying in BG. My suggestion for dipping into a third color was more along the lines of running a Dual or two to splash into things like Ancient Grudge in the sideboard. And besides, if you want a Loam-enabler Red card that's amazing against creatures, consider Devastating Dreams. But you can stay in BG and still have access to repeatable removal, e.g. Cabal Pit or Cursed Scroll.
3. Dropping too much discard is going to make you especially weak to combo. If you can't have a decent shot against at least a few types of combo decks, your deck is definitely going to be Tier 2 at best. My assumption is that you're trying to construct a fairly competitive list, right?
4. Given your fairly high density of Artifacts, perhaps the direction you're going into is something more like UBx Tezzeret? I would at least check out that deck's thread to see some of the options those players have discussed, since there seems to be a fair amount of strategic overlap here.
5. Regarding the Wish board: I know you were probably thinking about Burning Wish, but consider Living Wish as the Green alternative: it can snag you creatures and lands, which provide a full tool-kit of answers to various problems.
6. No matter what choices you ultimately make, you need to consider the Win Condition(s). Decks that don't run enough win conditions tend to do poorly -- you need a fair number of cards that can decisively end the game once you've established board control. Creatures do a pretty good job of this and can simultaneously function as disruptive elements, and BG(x) provides plenty of good options. I know you're thinking of running 4 Chalice in the main deck, but even so you might still want to start with 4 Deathrite Shaman. Any non-combo Golgari deck needs a very, VERY good reason to not be starting its list with 4 copies of this card.

edit: If you're really crazy about Sadistic Sacrament, perhaps BR(x) is the starting point -- that way, you also get access to Slaughter Games, which is arguably better anyways. There are a fair number of powerful Rakdos cards as well. So maybe going an entirely different direction, perhaps without Green is worth considering.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wcm8

A few responses:

1. Explosiveness is good, and in fact a good reason to even consider running a non-Blue deck in Legacy, given that you then miss out on counterspells and cantrips. Mox Diamond as a ramp option is a good card to take advantage of running a higher land-count and LftL, and will help you drop stuff earlier like a turn 1 Chalice on 1 -- a play that often yields victory against quite a few archetypes.
2. That said, I don't think you are gaining all that much by adding Punishing Fire to your deck. You are destabilizing your mana base in a pretty major way to become a weaker version of existing decks. And for what? A card that helps against smaller creature decks? You already have access to cards like Toxic Deluge, Liliana, and it seemed like your original goal was to utilize Ensnaring Bridge. I just really don't think PFire is doing all that much for you that can't already be accomplished with the original idea of staying in BG. My suggestion for dipping into a third color was more along the lines of running a Dual or two to splash into things like Ancient Grudge in the sideboard. And besides, if you want a Loam-enabler Red card that's amazing against creatures, consider Devastating Dreams. But you can stay in BG and still have access to repeatable removal, e.g. Cabal Pit or Cursed Scroll.
3. Dropping too much discard is going to make you especially weak to combo. If you can't have a decent shot against at least a few types of combo decks, your deck is definitely going to be Tier 2 at best. My assumption is that you're trying to construct a fairly competitive list, right?
4. Given your fairly high density of Artifacts, perhaps the direction you're going into is something more like UBx Tezzeret? I would at least check out that deck's thread to see some of the options those players have discussed, since there seems to be a fair amount of strategic overlap here.
5. Regarding the Wish board: I know you were probably thinking about Burning Wish, but consider Living Wish as the Green alternative: it can snag you creatures and lands, which provide a full tool-kit of answers to various problems.
6. No matter what choices you ultimately make, you need to consider the Win Condition(s). Decks that don't run enough win conditions tend to do poorly -- you need a fair number of cards that can decisively end the game once you've established board control. Creatures do a pretty good job of this and can simultaneously function as disruptive elements, and BG(x) provides plenty of good options. I know you're thinking of running 4 Chalice in the main deck, but even so you might still want to start with 4 Deathrite Shaman. Any non-combo Golgari deck needs a very, VERY good reason to not be starting its list with 4 copies of this card.

edit: If you're really crazy about Sadistic Sacrament, perhaps BR(x) is the starting point -- that way, you also get access to Slaughter Games, which is arguably better anyways. There are a fair number of powerful Rakdos cards as well. So maybe going an entirely different direction, perhaps without Green is worth considering.

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1. When testing that loam list I did like the explosiveness. I'll try to strike a balance. I think the optimal number of moxes is going to be something like 2-3 with 2 loams.

2. I didn't like Pfire when i used it in the aggro loam list. Devastating Dreams is something I had considered. I've been wanting to find a good use for that card for a long time. The other card for consideration with dreams would be bitter ordeal. That could lead to a huge Bitter ordeal. That might be "living the dream" and unpractical tho.

3. I did notice In a relatively short number of gams that dropping even 3 discard had an impact. It made a match like S&T which was relatively easier much harder.

4. i've considered the tezzeret shell. I don't really run enough artifact for that. I could try to port the list tho. I looked over their forum briefly and found that there is a very large variance between all of the decks being played. Most versions only run 1-2 bridge and thopter combo but i found this quote that is exactly what i thought.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by James718

I stopped playing the swords combo in here because Abrupt Decay is everywhere. My best games are either hide behind the bridge until ultimate or minus tezz and hit fast.

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That leads me to believe that the goal I'm trying to achieve with my deck might make a good fit for that one. I've always liked tezzeret but when testing it it always seemed to be lacking something and i never really picked it up.

5. I was mainly thinking burning wish just because it could grab extra sacraments. Living wish is really good at setting up a toolbox in the board. Although they would be creatures which id try to avoid there are still some really good silver bullets worth consideration.

6. DRS is a great card but I've found that running so few creatures, they rarely stick to the board because the removal that would otherwise be worthless in the opponents hands now has an outlet. Almost every deck runs removal and they would draw it in relative proportion to them if I only used these as creatures. Granted they are like planes walkers and could close out a game, I don't they are the answer. I wouldn't be worried about including them with chalice because I could always add 1-2 cavern of souls if i web BG and cast them through chalice.

I really like sacrament more than slaughter games. Here's why, Slaughter games is good at removing 4 of's from decks. So against combo decks its generally pretty good. But what i've noticed with sadistic sacrament is that the cards that really pose a threat to you are most of the time not 4 ofs. Consider Miracles. They generally only run 1 councils judgement to deal with permanents, but some lists run an engineered explosives too. All lists run 2-3 jace. So the most cards i'll get out of miracles is 3, and can get as few as 1. That said, I do think that slaughter games does have its place. If I was able to cast it faster than T4, and also be able to play sadistic sacrament with it. Slaughter games is probably a 2 of with 3 being tops post board but Ive used it before and its underwhelming. Sacrament on the other hand is so good I've considered something like ramp into 10 mana to kick it. I think that having loam would actually allow me to cast it kicked much more reliably than I can now which is something I like. Usually 2 sacraments is more than enough to solidify a win with the other cards I'm running in the deck.

After playing with the card I realize why wizards doesn't make more cards like it for less cost. The effect is incredibly powerful.


Thanks for the useful tips.