[EDH] Scion of the Ur-Dragon (Hermit Druid Combo)

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Originally Posted by Kuma

This is totally a multiplayer list. Most decks aren't running many pieces of hate for you, the deck plays through 2-3 pieces of hate no problem, I've played through 6 pieces before, and this deck is even faster than most top tier EDH decks. Give it a shot in your multiplayer group, you won't be disappointed with its power. Though I can't promise your friends will be happy with you. This is the strongest EDH deck I've ever seen. I don't bring it out very often because it isn't very sporting.

It's also stupid good 1v1.

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really can't beat 3 people who know what you are doing and are all playing against you in a competitive format. This is easily the best 1v1 deck ever. if I could i'd play this deck in legacy as its better / more consistent than everything in that format. I mean its possible but incredibly hard depending on what kind of removal they are playing. I just lost the commander challenge at GP houston cause I had to fight through a pod of 3 counter heavy blue decks with red and white removal. Jesura, ederic, and Ruhan. I finished second in that pod. Then in the finals I played against Ruhan again, Jhoria with nothing but counters and burn, and a BWG deck.... didnt really impact the game. They were able to keep me off enough of my cards although i came within 1 green mana of winning several times. This leads me to believe it is possible but needs a mana revamp. THe only really relevant colors are Blue/black to get your unearth guys and green obviously. i'm considering adding Pain lands to help this issue and possibly filters in these colors.

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Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

Is it actually better than oona?

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see above


The list im currently playing

Deck
Commander :
1 Scion of the Ur-Dragon
Lands :
1 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Badlands
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Savannah
1 Taiga
1 Plateau

1 Polluted Delta
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Arid Mesa

1 Steam Vents
1 Stomping Ground
1 Blood Crypt
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Watery Grave
1 Godless Shrine
1 Temple Garden
1 Breeding Pool
1 Hallowed Fountain

1 Cavern of Souls
1 Command Tower
1 Reflecting Pool
1 City of Brass
1 Tranquil Thicket

Mana acceleration :

1 Mox Diamond

1 Birds of Paradise
1 Noble Hierarch

The combo itself :

1 Hermit Druid

1 Devoted Druid
1 Morselhoarder
1 Spikeshot Elder
1 Necrotic Ooze

1 Narcomoeba
1 Fatestitcher
1 Dregscape Zombie
1 Dread Return

Tutor, card draw, library manipulation :

1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Worldly Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Eladamri's Call
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Intuition
1 Muddle the Mixture
1 Shred Memory
1 Entomb
1 Buried Alive

1 Brainstorm
1 Preordain
1 Impulse
1 Frantic Search

1 Thought Courier
1 Merfolk Looter
1 Dark Confidant

1 Sylvan Library

1 Fauna Shaman
1 Survival of the Fittest

1 Tithe

Protecting the combo :

1 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Castigate
1 Mesmeric Fiend
1 Tidehollow Sculler

1 Mother of Runes
1 Spell Pierce
1 Lightning Greaves

Recursion :

1 Unearth
1 Reanimate
1 Rise // Fall
1 Apprentice Necromancer
1 Shallow Grave
1 Postmortem Lunge

1 Regrowth
1 Eternal Witness

1 Life from the Loam

1 Genesis

Dealing with problems :

1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Ancient Grudge

1 Beast Within
1 Vindicate

Various (but so useful) :

1 Gitaxian Probe
1 Anger
1 Pull from Eternity
1 Memory's Journey

Plan B :

1 Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon
1 Moltensteel Dragon

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Originally Posted by apple713

really can't beat 3 people who know what you are doing and are all playing against you in a competitive format.

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Of course it can. I regularly run it against three people who know what I'm doing and are playing competitive decks. It doesn't win all the time in that situation, but it wins a well above average number of games. I don't know how you're playing the deck, but I feel like the key is to aggressively mulligan into turn three kill hands.

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Originally Posted by apple713

This is easily the best 1v1 deck ever. if I could i'd play this deck in legacy as its better / more consistent than everything in that format. I mean its possible but incredibly hard depending on what kind of removal they are playing. I just lost the commander challenge at GP houston cause I had to fight through a pod of 3 counter heavy blue decks with red and white removal. Jesura, ederic, and Ruhan. I finished second in that pod. Then in the finals I played against Ruhan again, Jhoria with nothing but counters and burn, and a BWG deck.... didnt really impact the game. They were able to keep me off enough of my cards although i came within 1 green mana of winning several times. This leads me to believe it is possible but needs a mana revamp. THe only really relevant colors are Blue/black to get your unearth guys and green obviously. i'm considering adding Pain lands to help this issue and possibly filters in these colors.

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I've found that each answer spell you don't have an answer for slows you down a turn, maybe two. I've regularly played through five or six answer spells and won. I know it's been a while, but do you remember what your hands looked like in those games? As for the mana base, you may be right. I haven't critically looked at the mana base in a while, but then again I haven't had major issues with it.

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Originally Posted by apple713

list

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There are several cards in your list I've found suboptimal including Mox Diamond, Preordain, Anger, Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon, Moltensteel Dragon and Impulse. Thought Courier and Merfolk Looter seem terrible. Dark Confidant is interesting, but I feel like he might be a little too slow. I've found discard to be weak as it's difficult to determine who to hit with it, and I'm not sure what Life from the Loam does for you. If you're getting buried in counterspells, I think Crop Rotation for Cavern of Souls or City of Solitude, etc. are better choices.

Any updates on this deck? It seems to be hella fun to play with.

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Originally Posted by mrjumbo03

Any updates on this deck? It seems to be hella fun to play with.

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it needs to be tailored for either 1v1 or 4 man pods. I have a good 1v1 list but havent figured out what is better for 4 man pods.

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Originally Posted by jjjoness'

How well is the deck going to perform without the ridiculously expensive cards (i.e. Grim Tutor, Imperial Seal, Imperial Recruiter) and what would you replace them with?

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the deck plays very well without them. You can see my list for what i played in their place. I will be changing up several of my random slots that are geared for 1v1 though so disregard those.

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Originally Posted by Kuma

I've got a new, more efficient kill stolen shamelessly from the Cephalid Breakfast thread.

Angel of glory's rise VS necrotic ooze combo

There are pros and cons to this new kill.

Pros:

- It takes up one less card slot in the deck.
- It can win through some cards that Shivan Hellkite couldn't, e.g. Energy Field, Solitary Confinement, and Leyline of Sanctity.
- Two of the win conditions are blue and can be pitched to Force of Will and Misdirection in a dire emergency.
- Scion of the Ur-Dragon can be switched to something more useful, perhaps Child of Alara or a yet unprinted card.

Cons:

- Split second cards like Wipe Away and Trickbind can now interact with the deck post-Dread Return.
- Stifle on Angel of Glory's Rise's trigger is super awkward.
- Buried Alive is no longer an option. This is both good and bad, as I'd never actually needed to use Buried Alive switching kills frees up another slot in the deck.
- Angel of Glory's Rise is a lot harder to cast than Necrotic Ooze if it gets stuck in your hand.

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I'm unconvinced that the above reasons make angel better than ooze. It seems like by cutting azami you have weakened your win condition further. Granted ooze takes up 1 more slot in the deck it actually isn't dead to energy field / confinement / leyline because it has cards in the grave like ray of revelation which it can cast with the infinite mana it has. Scion was never necessary for the ooze combo to work. So a more accurate pro's list would be

pro's
1 of the cards is blue and can be pitched to FOW / Misdirection
it requires 1 less slot in the deck

Cons
- maniac can be killed in response to drawing a card... then you just lose, the deck has no outs to this....
and everything you listed earlier.



maybe you could revisit this or shed some light on how you further justify the switch.


also, in meta's where there are heavy control decks, have you considered city of solitude / dosan the falling leaf?


Swan song deserves a place in this deck

^With regard to Lab Maniac being killed in response to drawing, you just respond to the kill spell by tapping another wizard (i.e. the Maniac itself, Snapcaster Mage, and even Fatestitcher if you unearth it) to draw again. The Angel kill is really more resilient, as evidenced by the fact that even some combo decks in legacy have switched to it (Breakfast, Oops all spells). Basically, you have at least 3 Human Wizards when you successfully return Angel, so they would need 3 kill spells to respond to each draw for you to lose, highly unlikely. But if you suspect such, you can even unearth Fatestitcher and/or cast a draw spell, to win past 3 kill spells.

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Originally Posted by mrjumbo03

^With regard to Lab Maniac being killed in response to drawing, you just respond to the kill spell by tapping another wizard (i.e. the Maniac itself, Snapcaster Mage, and even Fatestitcher if you unearth it) to draw again. The Angel kill is really more resilient, as evidenced by the fact that even some combo decks in legacy have switched to it (Breakfast, Oops all spells). Basically, you have at least 3 Human Wizards when you successfully return Angel, so they would need 3 kill spells to respond to each draw for you to lose, highly unlikely. But if you suspect such, you can even unearth Fatestitcher and/or cast a draw spell, to win past 3 kill spells.

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I'm familiar with this however the most recent list posted i guess was by legacy student and he discussed that he cut azami...was that just stupid?

does someone have a more current list?

Also, i have found Underworld Cerberus to be another way to combo out for 1 less card, and it seems just as good/bad as with angel. Any opinions on this?

Underworld Cerberus requires you to cast more cards than may be desired. I played in 3 pods today and won 2 of them by turn 4 and 1 went into turn 7. hermit druid got RFG because i didn't GSZ for a sylvan safe keeper first and i had to tutor for a pull from eternity just so i could reanimate hermit. This game was hard / cutting it close because an opponent landed a lodestone golem total all my spells. so.... underworld Cerberus may not be the better choice for that reason. Trinisphere, sphere of resistance, thorn of amethyst, thalia, and lodestone golem all tax spells making it harder to win with underworld Cerberus.

Underworld Cerberus for those who don't know is the target for dread return, once he is in play he'll get sacrificed to cast cabal therapy, and when he hits the graveyard he will return all creature's to your hand. You will have a elvish spirit guide and simian spirit guide in your hand from Cerberus' ability and you should have a mana open to hard cast a laboratory maniac. you will also have a street wraith in hand. It requires you to cast 3 spells instead of just 1 like the other combos.

My current versions is below and you can view more on it here

1 Hermit Druid
1 Narcomoeba
1 Fatestitcher
1 Necrotic Ooze
1 Morselhoarder
1 Devoted Druid
1 Dread Return
1 Scholar of Athreos

1 Corpse Dance
1 Unearth
1 Reanimate
1 Postmortem Lunge
1 Shallow Grave
1 Life // Death
1 Pull From Eternity
1 Memory's Journey
1 Snapcaster Mage

1 Force of Will
1 Mana Drain
1 Misdirection
1 Pact of Negation
1 Mental Misstep
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Plaxmanta
1 Mizzium Skin
1 Simic Charm

1 Abrupt Decay
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Nature's Claim
1 Snapback
1 Rapid Hybridization
1 Pongify
1 Gilded Drake

1 Imperial Seal
1 Grim Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Personal Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Intuition
1 Survival of the Fittest
1 Worldly Tutor
1 Sylvan Tutor
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Lim-Dûl's Vault
1 Eladamri's Call
1 Gamble
1 Imperial Recruiter
1 Dimir Infiltrator
1 Shred Memory
1 Muddle the Mixture
1 Entomb

1 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Chrome Mox
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Lotus Petal
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Noble Hierarch

1 Frantic Search
1 Brainstorm
1 Gitaxian Probe
1 Street Wraith

1 Scrubland
1 Badlands
1 Savannah
1 Taiga
1 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea

1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Watery Grave
1 Breeding Pool

1 Arid Mesa
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
1 Flooded Strand
1 Scalding Tarn

1 Sunken Ruins
1 Twilight Mire
1 Flooded Grove

1 Forbidden Orchard
1 Gemstone Mine
1 Tarnished Citadel
1 City of Brass
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Command Tower
1 Exotic Orchard

1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Cavern of Souls


Scholar of Athreos - doesn't target so you don't need ray of revelation / ancient grudge.
Gilded Drake - variable slot possible replaced by Rise // Fall
Imperial Seal - easily replaced by fauna shaman
Grim Tutor - easily replaced by sylvan library
Imperial Recruiter - easily replaced by impulse

The blue version seems to be overall just a better protective shell.

Tournament Report

Pod 1 - norin / azami / grimgrin

started the game with druid in hand and a mystical tutor and postmortem lunge. I only had 2 lands in had but they were forbidden orchard and fetch so mana wasn't a problem. T1 forbidden orchard, tutor for force of will. T2 druid. Force of will an echoing truth cast on druid. T3 Win.

Pod 2 - omnath / grimgrin / niv mizzet

Opening hand had mystical tutor, misdirection, mizzum skin, and lands. T1 tutor for Demonic tutor so i can hide my combo from players and draw for the turn. T2 demonic tutor for druid. T3 wcast druid with 1 blue open. Before my T4 starts the active player casts scavenging ooze but 0 mana available. At Eot the niv mizzet player izzet charms my druid, I cast mizzum skin. The grim grin player casts a counter spell on Mizzum, I misdirect the izzet charm to target the scavenging ooze. Druid is safe, ooze is dead, and I start my turn and win.

Pod 3 - norin / azami / rhada <---- same 2 from first pod... they weren't happy to get paired with me.

I start out with a noble heirach and transmute a muddle. t3 cast druid and play preordain. I pass the turn and druid gets RFG by red sun zenith for 1... super pissed. Casting preordain was my critical player error and forced the game to go into extra turns. I should have cast GSZ for a Sylvan Safekeeper then cast hermit druid. Anyways the game continues and the azami player is stuck on 3 lands. Rhada player is casting huge fucking bombs on back to back turns but doesn't realize how powerful hermit druid is so he's attacking everyone evenly. He lands an early lotus cobra so he's ramping really fast. He starts out with a rampaging baloth, then a terrastadon, then a mayojin. Azami player delay's mayojin so we're saved. Norin player drops a lodestone golem so my quest for pull from eternity is slowed by an extra turn or 2. I top deck a sol ring, pull from eternity my druid, reanimate him and I have a sylvan safe keeper in play and a noble heirach as well. Pass the turn and the azami player casts a phantasmal image on terrastadon, blows up 1 of my lands instead of both... not sure why and I start my turn and win.

The deck is a beast!


After careful consideration I have decided to try the angel of glory's rise combo however I'm adding something for security. Wipe away and split second abilities are likely to come up in EDH because the card pool for removal is limited and that was my main reason for playing the ooze combo. I did not want my opponents to have outs once dread return resolved. While stifle and trick bind are still available I'm thinking they are unlikely. I have chosen to run Dosan the Falling Leaf in the spot that the angel build free's up. He is human and will return to the battlefield with all the other humans. there are answers I can think of at that point that could prevent me from winning. Additionally he is a very good card to be playing main deck anyways because of all the counter magic the deck has to fight through. Still somewhat skeptical of angels build because of the possibility of stifle or trick bind but IDK.

Is cruel tutor too slow for this deck?

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Originally Posted by owerbart

Is cruel tutor too slow for this deck?

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Yes.

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Originally Posted by Kuma

Yes.

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Thanks for the input. Also, some of my friends play the Arcum Dagsson deck. How can I win with this deck if they fetch a Tormod's Crypt in response to my druid activation?

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Originally Posted by owerbart

Thanks for the input. Also, some of my friends play the Arcum Dagsson deck. How can I win with this deck if they fetch a Tormod's Crypt in response to my druid activation?

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If they activate Crypt in response to your Hermit Druid activation, it won't mess you up at all. If they do it in response to your Dread Return, use Memory's Journey to shuffle Laboratory Maniac, Pull from Eternity and maybe an answer to Arcum into your library. Try to win by casting Laboratory Maniac and drawing a card.

If you're playing against Arcum a lot, I recommend adding Pithing Needle and Phyrexian Revoker to the deck. Any cheap artifact creature removal like Crumble or Snuff Out is good for blanking their Arcum activation the turn you want to win.

Grafdigger's Cage is much more problematic.

I am assuming this is a multiplayer list?

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Originally Posted by Epeirogeny

I am assuming this is a multiplayer list?

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Correct, sir

Kuma, what's your latest list?

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Originally Posted by mrjumbo03

Kuma, what's your latest list?

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I haven't really updated this since Return to Ravnica came out. Original post should have my most current list which is several years old. I doubt I'd change much though, it's hard for new sets to add cards to this deck.

Hmm ... I am saddened I don't see the [cards]Moltensteel Dragon[/card] + Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon infect one shot in here . . . but strangely enough I remember playing against someone using Necrotic Ooze with my own Kikki-Jikki, Mirror Breaker and his own Devoted Druid.

Very neat ^_^

So I have this built now. It is using General Tarzi and Food Chain combo as an alternative to Scion. Not sure how I like it. Though it seems the EDH meta has changed a bit since 2012. I win a lot of games, but also get hated out pretty easily now that everyone knows what I am playing when I sit at the table. Any suggestions? Or is that list simply the definitive list? I have been playing around with a few options, but the deck lacks synergy once Hermit Druid is hated out. General Tarzi seems to have some synergy with all of the creature tutors, but it is not oppressive or anything.

Hi Kuma,

So I was running a very unoptimised build of BUG Hermit Druid with Sidisi, Brood Tyrant in the command zone. It was horrendously fragile and I've begun to get hated out more and more.

I found your list thanks to the Magic of Google. I had no idea Angel of Glory's Rise existed up until now, as I'd brewed everything myself and in private!

Rather than have to fish out big money for a five coloured mana base, I opted for using the new Partner commanders Thrasios, Triton Hero & Tymna the Weaver.

As is with Scion, they're not used very much, but the extra scry/draw from them in the slow going early game is more of an advantage than running the red cards I currently own (see: Gamble)

I just wanted to say thanks for providing this forum thread, it's been a great insight for me to learn about the combo and how to make my decks more resilient!

I will post again in a couple of weeks with my list once the deck is complete.

Cheers
tenrose from /r/competitiveedh

edit: and here's the edit. i've written a primer and cut a lot of dead cards from your list. http://www.tappedout.net/mtg-decks/4c-glory/

instead of using azami and a lot of wizards, we bring back Grand Abolisher and Hapless Researcher. no interactions means no problems!

Current List has about 8 flex spots. This list has been very resilient while winning within turns 2-5. After turn 5, hermit Druid hate or graveyard hate I turn to back up combos. Cephalid Breakfast is usually plan B, Survival of the Fittest into Reveillark, Body double, mirror entity combo is Plan C, Food Chain is Plan D or after graveyard hate like Rest In Peace. Many cards have flashback and most of the combo pieces are creature based to make tutoring easy.

After a year of playing the deck here is my list:

http://deck.tk/76Bm6guQ

1 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Taiga
1 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath
1 Arid Mesa
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Watery Grave
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Steam Vents
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Breeding Pool
1 Godless Shrine
1 Mana Confluence
1 Command Tower
1 City of Brass
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Coalition Relic
1 Chromatic Lantern
1 Simic Signet
1 Selesnya Signet
1 Darksteel Ingot
1 Bazaar of Baghdad
1 Grim Tutor
1 Hermit Druid
1 Narcomoeba
1 Food Chain
1 Azami, Lady of Scrolls
1 Angel of Glory's Rise
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Pact of Negation
1 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
1 Swan Song
1 Brainstorm
1 Mind Twist
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Mirror Entity
1 Reveillark
1 Body Double
1 Halimar Excavator
1 Kalastria Healer
1 Survival of the Fittest
1 Cephalid Illusionist
1 Nomads en-Kor
1 Worldly Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Sylvan Tutor
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Lim-Dûl's Vault
1 Eladamri's Call
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Wasteland
1 Pull from Eternity
1 Animate Dead
1 Postmortem Lunge
1 Intuition
1 Reanimate
1 Shallow Grave
1 Corpse Dance
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Hull Breach
1 Dread Return
1 Fatestitcher
1 Dregscape Zombie
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Eternal Scourge
1 Misthollow Griffin
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Memory's Journey
1 Unearth
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Echoing Truth
1 Necromancy
1 Sensei's Divining Top

//Sideboard
SB: 1 General Tazri #!Commander




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