0-3 tonight...I give up.
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0-3 tonight...I give up.
I'm an older rock player so I hope I don't come off as offensive. I'm more of curious.Quote:
Originally Posted by kinda
I like where you're going with your version of the deck.
I think your list looks really good I just have questions about a couple of things that, to me, seem as extras or dilutions to your main focus. I don't know the intricacies of your deck.
1) Do you need the third Helm in the main? Presently you have potentially 7 Helms. It feels like you could use 6 just as well as 7.
2) How has the Singleton maindeck Leyline been? And why? Is it to complete the playset games 2 & 3?Again, sorry about asking some of these. I just have no experience with the deck. So, I actually do need context for this one.
3) Your list, on paper, suggests you're operating as 3 archetypes (combo, control, prison) with no main. Rome taught us that there must be a first amongst equals. Why the balance? Looking to shift gears mid-game?
Those questions aside, what'd you play against? What happened? What does your meta consist of? Or, are you looking for a general meta?
Don't give up. I'm routing for you.
I went 3-1 with a Bant build last Thursday. There is still hope, even though W6 is a beating.Quote:
Originally Posted by kinda
Taking something like this to FNM.
Not pure Eskimo style but Brainstorm is way to god.
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Seat of the Synod
3 Snow-Covered Island
8 Snow-Covered Plains
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 On Thin Ice
4 Force of Will
4 Arcum's Astrolabe
3 Counterspell
2 Echoing Truth
3 Rest in Peace
1 Web of Inertia
1 Energy Field
3 Marit Lage's Slumber
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Oblivion Ring
4 Enlightened Tutor
1 Entreat the Angels
SB
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Pithing Needle
2 Damping Sphere
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Monkey Cage
2 Terminus
Scrying sheets is really what makes it Quinn but you are welcome all the same. Interested to see how you do. What matchup do you bring the monkey cage in for?Quote:
Originally Posted by viggo3000
:'( nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo you were the chosen oneQuote:
Originally Posted by kinda
After my (very) successful MF Lyon, I chose to get back to Sylvan Quinn.
Veil of Summer is the best card ever printed.
I'll post a list soon.
List??!Quote:
Originally Posted by aedemiel
Quote:
Originally Posted by kinda
This is what I've been running so far.
As I said above, the Veil of Summer in the board are extremely good. It's the counter we were waiting for against Abrupt Decay.
I've been doing pretty good on MGO recently, but there are still two majors threats:
12Post/Eldrazi.deck
The one-of Damping Sphere was chosen for that, although I almost completely gave-up on this match-up at this point.
The thing about this deck is that it turns everything upside-down. Usually the longer a game last, the better our chance to win are. That is not the case here since you always have the "Ulamog-Exile-Two" and "All-is-Dust-Wipe-your-Board" menaces on your head. You need a fast "Oops-I-Win" kill and sometimes it's easier said than done.
Control PW.deck
You don't have a lot of tools for that:
—Pithing Needle is pretty good. Sometimes you can drop it on turn 1, name W&6 and feel good about your life. However it doesn't stop static abbilities and Narset is a beating.
—Oblivion Ring. A bit too expensive, plus you want to use it on something else.
—Elspeth is still a good grind machine and Decree of Justice can surprise-kill a few things, but that's it.
Like most control decks we're still waiting for “:1::w:, instant, Exile target Planeswalker”.
Also, I have to mention that Oko is a monster. Turns of our Needle/Bridge, frees the way for Jace the following turn...
The one-ofs Canonist and Choke are obviously silver bullets and can give you random games VS Combo and Control.
Storm is now trivial with 4 Orim's, 4 Veils and 4 LL.
With only one Seal of Cleansing we are quite soft to Chalice.decks.
Painter/Strawberry is pretty hard.
Resolved Sigarda is game-ending most of the time.
Double post, but that changes a lot.
Good job! I'll try to borrow the bits I'm missing to run your 75...plus one abundance I think :cool:.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aedemiel
Not saying your list sucks, but I would consider the following modifications to your list. Feel free to use whatever input you think is useful, reject the rest.
-3 Helm of Obedience is dead if you can't combo out with it, and for 4 mana, it runs into Spell Pierce, Daze and Force of Will. If that happens, you lose so much tempo that it's hard to get back into the game. Just because you are playing RIP main, doesn't mean Helm is good. I do think RIP main is correct in the current metagame. Energy Field is much more efficient imo. Between Elspeth and Humility, you're 4 drop slot is already full
-1 Decree of Justice is a feel good nostalgia card, but it is outclassed. You're not playing Standstill to take advantage of it, and if you have resolved Humility, you have already won the game in the current meta against 90% of the decks.
-1 Sylvan Library You only need one. You're not abusing it with the Dredge Mechanic or Words of War/Wilding (yet)
-1 Choke . Put it in the sideboard and exchange it for Blood Moon
-2 Ensnaring Bridge Dies to Oko, dies to Abrupt Decay, dies to Kolaghan's Command, dies to Ancient Grudgee, and Humility is better against Show and Tell. Orim's Chant with kicker stops token beats, and so does Elspeth.
3x Arcum's Astrolabe is just too good to pass up, and it opens a third splash color alongside prismatic vista. I would recommend red for Blood Moon. (regardless of wether you play Scrying Sheets or not.
1x Energy Field so you can still combo with RIP through Enlightened Tutor and Sterling Grove.
1x Blood Moon Too good to pass up with your current manabase and hoses delver decks. You're running E.Tutor so you only need 1.
2x Pyroblast Deals with Oko and is just generally great against Force of Will decks.
1x Words of Wilding or Words of War Cheaper win condition that dodges and abuses sylvan library. Replace 3 Sylvan Library draws for 6 damage or 3 2/2's, without putting any cards back. If you're not familiar with this weird quirk interaction, look it up. Both of them work excellent with Humility, but Words of Wilding is a little more effective against Planeswalkers.
Abundance could actually be fine in a post W&6 format, if there is a rise of control decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by kinda
Joke aside if the last ban means a rise of Grixis/BUG I might just play Veil MD instead of Choke. Since it's good VS both discard and counters (and Decay...).
Hmmm... I honestly don't know if you're joking or not, but I will answer step-by-step anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by bruizar
—Helm of Obedience. It's almost literally the reason to play this deck. You just can't get rid of them. The combo win is in fact so good that some people play the full playset of Helms. Also, it's NOT a dead card when it's alone.
—Decree of Justice is indeed a nostalgia factor, but it's still a good tool in some situations. I've tested them both with Mobilization and in the end I like it better. You're right it's a bit cute, but we don't have much better at the moment. However you're wrong when you say we almost win the game with a resolved Humility...
—Sylvan Library You are right, a 3/1 split with Mirri's Guile is possible.
—Choke. The one-of Choke MainDeck is obviously a meta choice. However I won't splash a third color for Blood Moon, no.
—Ensnaring Bridge. The point of Bridge isn't to lock-out the game completely, it's just to give us time for a “Oops-I-Win” combo.
Plus the whole argument of “dies to whatever” isn't good: everything dies to something in Magic. I could use the argument that Delver dies to literally every creature removal printed in this world. Yet it's still the most played creature in Legacy.
Overall, I think you don't really know what this deck is about, and if you had read the the 10 previous pages of this thread, you would have see that this list is in the continuance of the lists before. I tested a Bant Queen deck with 4 Astrolabs and E-Field. That deck could work (especially if we play Oko now).
That being said, if you want to test a 4color Queen deck, please do! I would love to see how it goes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aedemiel
I was not joking (and yes, I've been watching this thread since the opening post as I personally love Scrying Sheets). The problem I see is that you are running a lot of underpowered cards for the legacy format. Delver is the best deck right now, which is why W6 got banned (UR Delver still is 3 copies in the top8 at the last MTGO tournament as posted on mtgtop8.com). That means that you are going to have a very difficult time resolving 3CC/4CC non-creature cards. The average manacost needs to go down, and Helm of Obedience, even if it resolves, does little to solve the value engine that is Dreadhorde Arcanist. The same is true for Ensnaring Bridge. Dreadhorde Arcanist will simply go under it, flashback lightning bolts, ponders and brainstorms as they fill their hands up with counters against Rest in Peace. At least with Humility it's light out. Similarly, Rest in Peace is in an amazing spot right now with so much lands (pufi+loam), reanimator, dredge, and delver decks and value decks utilizing dreadhorde arcanist, snapcaster, tarmogoyf, gurmag angler, hogaak, bridge from below and other graveyard dependent cards.
In order to oops I win, you need 5 mana in one turn (7 mana if you're up against spell pierce, 6 against daze). If you don't do that, here are some of the things you run into:
1) 4c Snow Control -> Oko Helm
2) Maverick and certain Turbo Depths list -> GSZ Collector Ouphe/Gaddock Teeg
3) Delver -> tempo plays kill you before that time
4) Reanimator -> Helm will be irrelevant. The game is won through Enlightened Tutor, Rest in Peace, and Orim's Chant to buy you a turn.
5) Lands -> This game is about Oko and 20/20 vs Humility and Rest in Peace. Wasteland recursion doesn't impact you much so loam is a little bit weaker (only an ancestral recall). Ensnaring Bridge is useless in this match up because it won't survive 4x Oko. and Pithing Needle can't be placed on Thespian Stage because it needs to be put on Oko. Then they crop rotate Blast Zone and get rid of it anyway. Sideboard, Force of Vigor hits you pretty hard. Blood Moon would make a significant impact here, but if you don't want to splash, then I understand that.
6) UR Delver -> Dreadhorde Arcanist gets under bridge and creates a stream of value that is difficult to stop. Swords to Plowshares, Porphyry Nodes or bust. You can win the match by resolving Humility soon enough, which is almost an impossibility unless you go to 5CC for Chant into Humility. By that point, unless you drew a few STPs early, you'll be so low on life that bolts and 1/1's can actually finish you off. Rest in Peace is pretty relevant in this match up, but you know how it goes, they have Arcanist when you don't have RIP and they have Delver when you have RIP. And if this isn't the case, you need to get through FoW, Daze, Spell Snare and Spell Pierce This is life.
7) Turbo Depths -> The deck is super fast and Focused with Crop Rotation and Vampire Hexmage. Turbo depths looks heavily favored imo. T1 Urborg, Thoughtseize, Turn 2, Dark Depths Hexmage, EOT Marit Lage. Turn 3: Abrupt Decay Ensnaring Bridge, attack. Post board you have Veil of Summer, but you can't resolve a turn 3 Ensnaring Bridge AND a Veil of Summer to block the Abrupt Decay.
I don't intend to butcher the sacred cow here, but it is good to be objective about cards. I would argue that if you insist on Helm, you just keep 1 to grab with Enlightened Tutor when you have the mana to steal games with it. Helm of Obedience looks like an automatic mulligan to me. My message is, reduce the average CMC because the meta is too fast, or pick another deck if that's not possible.
I don't get what you're trying to achieve, honestly...
All the changes you talked about point to some 4color snow deck, which is an existing (and playable) archetype. You're free to talk about it, but this is Sylvan Queen we're talking about here.
All the point you mentionned are flawed to some extend (You don't jam Helm VS Oko.deck, Helm is stellar VS Reanimator, Arcanist doesn't do anything with RIP in play, Maverick and Loam decks are great match-ups...), and you would know that if actually played the deck.
You do.Quote:
Originally Posted by bruizar
You're right. And I'm the first to say that some of these choices are too cute and need to be replaced.Quote:
Originally Posted by bruizar
That's a terrible idea. If you play 4RIP MD you NEED to play 2-4 Helms. The point of E-tutor is mainly to grab your silver bullets. That's how it works in Parfait, that's how it works here.Quote:
Originally Posted by bruizar
It's not and, again, if you played this deck you would kow it.Quote:
Originally Posted by bruizar
You're right. That's why the overall CMC is lowered compared to my previous list (More 1-drops, Needle instead of Spyglass, no more Cast Out...), but there is still some work to do here.Quote:
Originally Posted by bruizar
That's what you pointed, and I suggest you to do that.Quote:
Originally Posted by bruizar
I'm sorry you feel personally attacked by my feedback. Good luck improving your list.
Don't take offense, this thread is really just a private chat for me, WarpWorld, and aedemiel but I do enjoy the guest appearances :smile:.Quote:
Originally Posted by bruizar
I did not feel personally attacked and I would love to talk about Sylvan Queen with you. I don't have much experience playing 4color snow however.Quote:
Originally Posted by bruizar
Stylistic upgrade or gaudy wotc cash grab?
https://www.hipstersofthecoast.com/w...op-series.jpeg
Well foil by definition is gaudy, so my interest ceiling is set at zero from the start.Quote:
Originally Posted by bruizar
Make a normal print run and then I'd consider