Re: [DTB] Natural Order RUG
Care to explain why Natural Order is easier to resolve than Jace? Both require double colored mana but NO needs a green creature to sacrifice. Since most control decks are U/w, if I'm playing U/w I would reserve my counters for NO than Jace because 1) Jace won't kill me in two turns 2) I can still attack Jace with critters 3) I can cast Jace to legend-rule your Jace. If I'm playing U/b/x then it's a different story, I would let your NO resolve and get rid of Progenitus with black removal spells, cast my Jace to fateseal you and prevent you from drawing NO or resolving Jace. But again, U/w is more played.
Re: [DTB] Natural Order RUG
This thread needs more discussion about how to identify roles in game, and when to pursue the Tarmogoyf plan instead of the NO plan.
Re: [DTB] Natural Order RUG
Quote:
Originally Posted by
death
Care to explain why Natural Order is easier to resolve than Jace? Both require double colored mana but NO needs a green creature to sacrifice. Since most control decks are U/w, if I'm playing U/w I would reserve my counters for NO than Jace because 1) Jace won't kill me in two turns 2) I can still attack Jace with critters 3) I can cast Jace to legend-rule your Jace. If I'm playing U/b/x then it's a different story, I would let your NO resolve and get rid of Progenitus with black removal spells, cast my Jace to fateseal you and prevent you from drawing NO or resolving Jace. But again, U/w is more played.
First off, I didn't say Natural Order was easier to resolve than Jace but harder to deal with (though it actually is easier to resolve because of Red Elemental Blast on Jace). Anyway, you explained it yourself, a resolved Natural Order is way harder to deal with than Jace and setting up a gamestate with four mana and a fetch for Dryad Arbor is not exactly hard to set up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mchainmail
This thread needs more discussion about how to identify roles in game, and when to pursue the Tarmogoyf plan instead of the NO plan.
I'm writing on this as I've been experimenting with stuff like boarding out Natural Order or Tarmogoyfs. I'm sure I'll be able to post full in-depth matchup analyses with explanation of the deck's general playstyle tomorrow or even today (but that's rather unlikely).
Re: [DTB] Natural Order RUG
Quote:
Originally Posted by
death
Care to explain why Natural Order is easier to resolve than Jace? Both require double colored mana but NO needs a green creature to sacrifice. Since most control decks are U/w, if I'm playing U/w I would reserve my counters for NO than Jace because 1) Jace won't kill me in two turns 2) I can still attack Jace with critters 3) I can cast Jace to legend-rule your Jace. If I'm playing U/b/x then it's a different story, I would let your NO resolve and get rid of Progenitus with black removal spells, cast my Jace to fateseal you and prevent you from drawing NO or resolving Jace. But again, U/w is more played.
First off, I didn't say Natural Order was easier to resolve than Jace but harder to deal with (though it actually is easier to resolve because of Red Elemental Blast on Jace). Anyway, you explained it yourself, a resolved Natural Order is way harder to deal with than Jace and setting up a gamestate with four mana and a fetch for Dryad Arbor is not exactly hard to set up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mchainmail
This thread needs more discussion about how to identify roles in game, and when to pursue the Tarmogoyf plan instead of the NO plan.
I'm writing on this as I've been experimenting with stuff like boarding out Natural Order or Tarmogoyfs. I'm sure I'll be able to post full in-depth matchup analyses with explanation of the deck's general playstyle tomorrow or even today (but that's rather unlikely).
Re: [DTB] Natural Order RUG
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jona
First off, I didn't say Natural Order was easier to resolve than Jace but harder to deal with (though it actually is easier to resolve because of Red Elemental Blast on Jace)...
Not to be a dick, but your reply was kind of condescending, so I feel that I should point this out...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jona
Is your list missing 3 Green Sun's Zenith? Seems like. Also, in my testing Jace was not good. I don't care if I get multiple Natural Orders, it easily wins games anyway. How often do you lose after you resolved Natural Order? I lost a total of two tournament games after resolving it and drew another one (this was a very interesting situation that came up yesterday). Jace, The Mind Sculptor is also not too strong against most cotrol decks, they actually have less out against Progenitus than against Jace. Further, it's also easier to resolve Natural Order than Jace.
I personally feel that Jace2 and Natural Order fill up the same slot, so they don't really go in the same deck unless it's to sideboard one for the other like Burtoncini's list. I Think Jace2 is undeniably strong post board plan as surely, they will be siding in hate against your Progenitus more than for your Jace2. Jace2 is actually a great card against control decks because the card advantage is what allows you to win the attrition wars control decks often put you into. How do you guys feel about the 2x Grim Lavamancers that frequent this deck? Is that even enough? Just a random question I thought I'd throw out there.
PS: I don't understand how you lost after drawing multiple Natural Orders.
Re: [DTB] Natural Order RUG
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jin
Not to be a dick, but your reply was kind of condescending, so I feel that I should point this out...
This was not my intention, sorry. Also, I should probably start remembering what I write.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jin
I personally feel that Jace2 and Natural Order fill up the same slot, so they don't really go in the same deck unless it's to sideboard one for the other like Burtoncini's list. I Think Jace2 is undeniably strong post board plan as surely, they will be siding in hate against your Progenitus more than for your Jace2. Jace2 is actually a great card against control decks because the card advantage is what allows you to win the attrition wars control decks often put you into. How do you guys feel about the 2x Grim Lavamancers that frequent this deck? Is that even enough? Just a random question I thought I'd throw out there.
I agree with your opinion on Jace. In my testing against U/W/r it was rarely worth it as they have a lot of ways to deal with him. Against UBG I'm not sure, that deck is not really prevalent where I play, even in bigger events. About the Grim Lavamancers: I tested them maindeck and then tried Fire // Ice instead, which was way better. Fire // Ice has won me more games than Grim Lavamancer because of stuff like killing two Goblins, not being hit by Mental Misstep, tapping down Batterskulls to race them and pitching to Force Of Will (this one is actually really important).
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jin
PS: I don't understand how you lost after drawing multiple Natural Orders.
This wasn't what I meant. I lost two games total where I resolved Natural Order. One was because of a misplay and was actually still really close and the other one was against UWR where I also misplayed and therefore lost. On top of that I drew a game against UWR because of time in which I resolved Natural Order. I could have won that game but variance striked. I had three draw steps to draw either a land, a burnspell, a Noble Hierarch or Green Sun's Zenith in order to win, but I didn't.
Edit: I finished writing a general guide for playing the deck plus matchup analyses with sideboard guide for my latest tested list. I also wrote something about tricks you need to be able to pull off from time to time.
I only wrote about Maverick, Merfolk, Stoneblade, Zoo and the mirror though. BUG Landstill and Bant Aggro are not relevant where I play so I'm not able to write in-depth analyses about these matchups. Is there something else that's important in the current meta or that you feel should be mentioned? Are there any situations that came up in testing or tournaments that you feel should be explained?
Re: [DTB] Natural Order RUG
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mchainmail
This thread needs more discussion about how to identify roles in game, and when to pursue the Tarmogoyf plan instead of the NO plan.
This would be good. I recently played the deck at a smallish event just to try it out.
I ended up going 3-2, beating TES, Uw Stoneforge, and Affinity all rather easily, got crushed by Reanimator and lost a close one to Merfolk.
I found that I almost never wanted NO... in fact I think I sided it out every single round.
Maybe that was incorrect, but the "Zenith up an army of Tarmogoyfs" + Clique beats was almost always preferable.
The NO plan ended up being a turn too slow for me a lot of the time at the event and in other testing.
Re: [DTB] Natural Order RUG
Did you really feel like you didn't want it or rather like you didn't need it? At one point I also thought that I almost never needed it, but when I had it, I almost always won. The plan of winning with lots of Tarmogoyfs is mostly good against decks without big creatures but with a lot of small ones, i.e. Merfolk, Goblins and Affinity. It might also be too slow against storm combo, but I'm not sure about that. Against basically every other deck in the format Natural Order is amazing.
Edit: I don't think we need the guide twice on the first page.
Re: [DTB] Natural Order RUG
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jona
I agree with your opinion on Jace. In my testing against U/W/r it was rarely worth it as they have a lot of ways to deal with him. Against UBG I'm not sure, that deck is not really prevalent where I play, even in bigger events. About the Grim Lavamancers: I tested them maindeck and then tried Fire // Ice instead, which was way better. Fire // Ice has won me more games than Grim Lavamancer because of stuff like killing two Goblins, not being hit by Mental Misstep, tapping down Batterskulls to race them and pitching to Force Of Will (this one is actually really important).
Edit: I finished writing a general guide for playing the deck plus matchup analyses with sideboard guide for my latest tested list. I also wrote something about tricks you need to be able to pull off from time to time.
I only wrote about Maverick, Merfolk, Stoneblade, Zoo and the mirror though. BUG Landstill and Bant Aggro are not relevant where I play so I'm not able to write in-depth analyses about these matchups. Is there something else that's important in the current meta or that you feel should be mentioned? Are there any situations that came up in testing or tournaments that you feel should be explained?
Oh that's interesting. I noticed that a lot of lists opted for Fire/Ice instead of lavamancer in the main. How come the count is only at two if this card is so important?
As for tricks go, don't forget the Vigilant 10/10 protection from everything Natural Order your Progenitus trick. Also another interaction I found interesting was, "Oh shit, I drew Progenitus," Vendilion Clique my 10/10 to the bottom.
That's all for now folks.
Re: [DTB] Natural Order RUG
I wrote a small report about playing NO RUG to Top 8 in a 50ish man tournament. Read about it here. Please refrain from commenting about the rest of the article on here.
I really like the deck, but it does need a solution to the Hive Mind match up (they just drop Emrakul, it's fucking annoying. That being said, my opponent was being very sketchy this match, so...)
Re: [DTB] Natural Order RUG
I like 3 surgical extraction in my SB. I think it can also be used very effectively versus Hive Mind if they intuition or if you manage to counter 1 combo piece. Besides that I think we have to hope to win the counter wars with Red-Blast support or to get lucky with a daze.
...probably still slightly unfavourable, but I did not test a lot!
Re: [DTB] Natural Order RUG
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jin
Oh that's interesting. I noticed that a lot of lists opted for Fire/Ice instead of lavamancer in the main. How come the count is only at two if this card is so important?
As for tricks go, don't forget the Vigilant 10/10 protection from everything Natural Order your Progenitus trick. Also another interaction I found interesting was, "Oh shit, I drew Progenitus," Vendilion Clique my 10/10 to the bottom.
That's all for now folks.
It's not overly important but a strong and versatile card. Plus the deck is lacking space for more. I might actually go up to three, but I don't know what to cut from my current list anymore. I even considered cutting a Tarmogoyf or two but I don't want to focus too much on the Natural Order plan. Being able to execute a somewhat normal Next Level Thresh game is actually quite important against most aggro decks (but Fire // Ice is not bad against these decks either).
And your right, I should have mentioned the vigilance trick, probably in the last section. I'm going to write something about the game I drew on Sunday, as the board state was really interesting and when I tanked, at least five people told me there was no way I could win. In fact, there was no way I could lose.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lorddotm
I wrote a small report about playing NO RUG to Top 8 in a 50ish man tournament. Read about it
here. Please refrain from commenting about the rest of the article on here.
I really like the deck, but it does need a solution to the Hive Mind match up (they just drop Emrakul, it's fucking annoying. That being said, my opponent was being very sketchy this match, so...)
Interesting report. Also nice to see that you picked up this deck, we should play a few games again (testing against Hive Mind?). Anyway, how did you like Umezawa's Jitte in your sideboard? In my experience it was often not strong enough as this deck doesn't have too many creatures. Also, how did you like Trygon Predator? What are you looking to beat with it, and isn't it too slow for that role? If it's for Affinity, I know for sure that Energy Flux just beats them, but if Trygon Predator is better, tell me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
catmint
I like 3 surgical extraction in my SB. I think it can also be used very effectively versus Hive Mind if they intuition or if you manage to counter 1 combo piece. Besides that I think we have to hope to win the counter wars with Red-Blast support or to get lucky with a daze.
...probably still slightly unfavourable, but I did not test a lot!
I'm running Surgical Extraction as well, but I'm not sure if it's necessary. I don't face graveyard based decks or combo decks very often. It has worked quite well so far though, and it won me some games other pieces of graveyard hate wouldn't have won. Having something to exile your opponent's entire graveyard is still quite useful, so I think I'll stick to Relic Of Progenitus or Tormod's Crypt for the third slot.
About the interesting gamestate that came up on Sunday:
It was my opponents turn. He had three lands, a Germ token with Batterskull and a Stoneforge Mystic. My board was just two lands plus a Dryad Arbor. Hed had two cards in hand, I had Natural Order, Natural Order, Fire // Ice, Lightning Bolt. He was at 21, I was at 15. He attacked with both of his creatures and time was called in his turn. He was quite sure he would win. I took five, he went to 25. I drew a land for my turn and cast Natural Order, it resolved. I got Progenitus and he said the game was a draw.
What would you do in that situation?