No-ko

Elks are Green? No more Wrenn means you can play x/1 mana dorks?

1 Progenitus
1 Archon of Valors Reach
4 Icefang Coatl
4 Hierarch

4 Plow
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Astrolabe
4 FoW
1 Narset
2 Time Raveler
3 Oko
3 Natural Order

1 Dryad Arbor
20 other lands maybe with prismatic vista for the snow basics etc I have no idea how to work the mana

Not sure if the addition of Natural Order really solves or improves anything over just playing like Stefanogs bant miracles but I like the idea of t1 dork into a 3-mana PW

i would consider a bant opposition deck, or bug opposition again.

i haven't had time to work on it, but after the banning i am interested again.

I'd like to try something close to this...I'd try to fit in gsz.

Could also go the stompy-route.

Oko turns redundant lockpieces into Elks.
Chalice and Trinisphere and Bridge? Elkify your Bridge once you have Progenitus in play.
Moxes covering as acceleration - you can tap for mana, then turn into an Elk and NO it away.
Perhaps room for Life from the Loam package to provide some land destruction to keep stuff at bay that will come back in force now that W6 is banned.

That being said, I have a lot of fondness for NO-Rug style stuff. And also fondness for NO shenanigans in general (tried NO-Eureka for one tournament, that was hilarious fun).

The problem I have whenever I try to make a NO midrange deck is always the following:

Why not ramp into 4x TNN instead?

NO costs more, sacs a card on cast, it's green and takes up more slots with clunky cards. A couples Jaces might as well be better.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Qweerios

The problem I have whenever I try to make a NO midrange deck is always the following:

Why not ramp into 4x TNN instead?

NO costs more, sacs a card on cast, it's green and takes up more slots with clunky cards. A couples Jaces might as well be better.

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Why not both? One of my favorite decks I've had the most fun with in recent memory was right before Deathrite got the axe and I was playing BUG NO with Jace, NO package, a couple green sun, a couple green silver bullets. Who needs true name when you can play Llawan to beat opposing true names

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

1 Dryad Arbor
20 other lands maybe with prismatic vista for the snow basics etc I have no idea how to work the mana

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You want a lot of snow basics for both Ice Fang and Astrolabe (and not losing the game to Wasteland). The deck looks predominantly UG early.

Try something like this:

//Lands: 21
4 Prismatic Vista
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
2 Snow-Covered Island
2 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Plains
2 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Tundra
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor


G sources: 16
U sources: 15
W sources: 14

10 fetches get basic Island
8 fetches get basic Forest/Dryad
6 fetches get basic Plains

With Brainstorm, Ponder, Hierarchs and Astrolabes on top, that mana seems really smooth. On paper anyway.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Qweerios

The problem I have whenever I try to make a NO midrange deck is always the following:

Why not ramp into 4x TNN instead?

NO costs more, sacs a card on cast, it's green and takes up more slots with clunky cards. A couples Jaces might as well be better.

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I guess there are situations where a 10/10 TNN is better than a 3/1 but this is still a pretty good point I think.

I've been mostly out of Legacy for quite a while, but perusing the last few months, Natural Order + Oko is the first thing I wanted to try. (sNOko, in my notes...)

Bant has always been one of the strongest decks for aggressively hitting the table with the best 3-drops in the format and a big high end of the curve. The Snow+Astrolabe plan ensures safe mana, and Natural Order is a fantastic top end that most of the fair decks can't answer. A deck of reliably casting bigger faster threats is a sweet place to be in a fair format.

@OP List:
- I think you need another primary threat. TNN is one. I hope this isn't Goyf since I sold mine, but it's probably Goyf. Bant capitalizes on early advantage, and you need the gas for that. It might be Knight, but the mana might be too tight for Wastes.
- I think you cut 1-2 Astrolabes, 1-3 Ponders, and probably a Snake for more on-the-board business. The Hierarch game plan means a T2 3-drop and then pulling further ahead on the board.
- You want GSZ. You probably want 7ish T1 dorks, so 3 GSZ.
- For mana, I think you *need* 4 Snow Lands, ideally 5 (5 if you run Knight). Mystic Sanctuary is very good for a fetchable (game-ending) threat if you have NO. 19-20 lands total depending on wastes/curve -- 20 for this build.
- I'd play Daze.

So you mean something like this?

sNOwKOnes.dec


//Creatures: 14
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Ice-Fang Coatl
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Knight of Autumn
1 Archon of Valor's Reach
1 Progenitus
1 Dryad Arbor

//Spells: 18
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order

//Planeswalkers: 5
3 Oko, Thief of Crowns
2 Teferi, Time Raveler

//Artifacts: 3
3 Arcum's Astrolabe

//Lands: 20
4 Prismatic Vista
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
2 Snow-Covered Island
2 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Plains
2 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Tundra
1 Karakas



I don't see room for Daze unfortunately, even though it fits well into the proactive plan. Once you fit in GSZ and another primary threat, there isn't much room.

how about okosition? :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FTW

So you mean something like this?

sNOwKOnes.dec


//Creatures: 14
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Ice-Fang Coatl
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Knight of Autumn
1 Archon of Valor's Reach
1 Progenitus
1 Dryad Arbor

//Spells: 18
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order

//Planeswalkers: 5
3 Oko, Thief of Crowns
2 Teferi, Time Raveler

//Artifacts: 3
3 Arcum's Astrolabe

//Lands: 20
4 Prismatic Vista
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
2 Snow-Covered Island
2 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Plains
2 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Tundra
1 Karakas



I don't see room for Daze unfortunately, even though it fits well into the proactive plan. Once you fit in GSZ and another primary threat, there isn't much room.

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Why do you need 3 okos in this combo deck. You should go 3 teferi and 2 okos. The game is to resolve the NO with no counters and drop a prog.

I also don't see why you need GSZ when you don't have a varied tool box. Just go for the win bro...get some dazes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KobeBryan

I also don't see why you need GSZ when you don't have a varied tool box. Just go for the win bro...get some dazes.

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To get Dryad Arbor or other dorks for NO fodder, since the creature count is low. Or ramp T1 Arbor when you don't have Noble.

Also to fetch toolbox tools like Knight of Autumn (maindeck) or other ones in the SB (Gaddock Teeg, Collector Ouphe, Scavenging Ooze, etc). GSZ opens up more SB options.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FTW

To get Dryad Arbor or other dorks for NO fodder, since the creature count is low. Or ramp T1 Arbor when you don't have Noble.

Also to fetch toolbox tools like Knight of Autumn (maindeck) or other ones in the SB (Gaddock Teeg, Collector Ouphe, Scavenging Ooze, etc). GSZ opens up more SB options.

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Yea...but you don't have space

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KobeBryan

Yea...but you don't have space

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K:
-3 GSZ
-1 Knight of Autumn
+1 Goyf
+3 Daze

Without GSZ, there are few sources of fodder so Oko's green Food/Astrolabe Elks become relevant.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KobeBryan

Why do you need 3 okos in this combo deck. You should go 3 teferi and 2 okos. The game is to resolve the NO with no counters and drop a prog.

I also don't see why you need GSZ when you don't have a varied tool box. Just go for the win bro...get some dazes.

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NO is a 4-mana 3-off. This is not a combo deck. For better or worse, it's an aggro-control to midrange deck that can combo against other fair decks, to go over-the-top of even midrangier decks or to line up favorably against control decks' answers.

GSZ is a Llanawar Elf / threat split card. It's not at its very strongest, but, coatl/goyf isn't a bad split.
Running an irresponsible density of 3-drops is powerful, and a T1 dork makes it work, so you want like 7. Hierarch is good. Bird and Goose are.. fine. Llanawar Elf with "Kicker 1G: Be Tarmogoyf or Coatl or Disenchant instead" is pretty good. It's better than Bird or Goose.

Space is real and Daze is real. (I'd happily go a couple over 60 with a deck like this. Lots of tutors and relatively few 4-offs means the common wisdom doesn't suffer much.)