Investigating Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers...0445&type=card

The purpose of this thread is to try to find a home for the card, rather than work on a specific deck. I'm just trying to get the ball rolling.

4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

Don't be afraid of the legend rule—that's a newbie mistake. Just as four was the correct number for Isamaru, so too for this deck. We want Thalia in play, at all times, in every game. If you can't play your extra Thalia because you have one in play already, then you are probably winning.

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port

These three cards work so well together that not playing them is probably a mistake.

One of the homes for this card is Death & Taxes, and there's been discussion about it over in the D&T thread. The other obvious home is White Weenie / White Aggro.

Where Thalia does _not_ belong is any sort of Vintage-style fish deck, in the vein of Threshold or Delver. These decks simply want to cast far too many highly efficient instants and sorceries, which constitute the biggest non-bo every with Thalia.

Here's my take on Mono white Thalia aggro:
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Aether Vial
4 Mother of Runes
4 Figure of Destiny
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of x and y
3 Jotun Grunt
4 Soltari Priest
3 Serra Avenger
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Dismember
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
1 Karakas
1 Eigano Castle
2 Horizon Canopy
7 Plains
4 Marsh Flats

This list is rough because it is just an example of a place to start. Basically, you are attacking their mana while using Vial to continue to deploy threats. Mother of Runes both reactively protects your creatures and pro-actively can force some of them through. Figure of Destiny and Stoneforge Mystic give you power in the late-game. Jotun Grunt shrinks Tarmogoyfs and KotR's while marginalizing Snapcaster Mages. Soltari Priest is insane against all the decks relying on red for creature removal, especially if you hand her an equipment. Serra Avenger rounds out the creature suite by being another excellent carrier for a piece of equipment.

What this deck isn't doing is trying to grind the opponent out with Mangara shenanigans, or trying to cast Elspeth, or whatever else you might want to do. We just want to throw a few wrenches in our opponent's plans, then kill them.

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However, Thalia-based aggro does not need to stay mono-white. We can't afford to go to three colors, but two is highly doable. Consider what happens when we play red. We get access to the following cards:

Lightning Bolt
Chain Lightning
Grim Lavamancer
Goblin Guide
Magus of the Moon

Grim Lavamancer does broken things in a creature heady aggro deck. [I'm the guy who played him in Merfolk; he was amazing, Volcanic Island was not.] Bolt is likely an upgrade to Swords to Plowshares / Dismember in a deck that is just trying to “get there.” I honestly have no idea if Goblin Guide or Magus of the Moon are correct to play.

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“If you're playing fish, why not play blue?”
“Well, Thalia makes it so that we can't really play blue spells.”
“Are you sure?”

Vendillion Clique
Spellstutter Sprite
Sower of Temptation
Meddling Mage
Serendib Efreet
Geist of Saint Traft

Can you imagine your opponent's face when he pays two mana to try to Path your guy, and you counter it with Spellstutter Sprite?

I included Serendib Efreet simply because it is bigger than Delver, but I doubt it's going to be the correct choice.

The blue cards move the deck towards being more mid-range, which is fine, but it's definitely something that alters the entire plan, and must be taken into account.

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Obviously, there are more options, but these seem like good places to start.

Isnt there already a decent home for her? I thought shes already established in Death n Taxes - where she isnt the maincard but still a big component?

Greetings

I like Thalia too... trying to include her into a Zoo/aggro deck. She's been definitely a prime target for removal etc when she's cast which is good. Couple it with a Canonist and life for the opponent can indeed get difficult! I've been trying to go W/R/G and so far it's been quite stable mana wise despite being susceptible to wastelands/stifle....

here's my list I'm testing

3 Wild Nacatl
3 Loam Lion
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Taiga
3 Savannah
2 Plateau
2 Wasteland
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
2 Arid Mesa
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Sylvan Library
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Lightning Helix
4 Chain Lightning
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Fireblast
4 Qasali Pridemage
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Huntmaster of the Fells
4 Ethersworn Canonist



SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 3 Pyrostatic Pillar
SB: 3 Faerie Macabre
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Shattering Spree


suggestions welcome!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheMinel

I like Thalia too... trying to include her into a Zoo/aggro deck. She's been definitely a prime target for removal etc when she's cast which is good. Couple it with a Canonist and life for the opponent can indeed get difficult! I've been trying to go W/R/G and so far it's been quite stable mana wise despite being susceptible to wastelands/stifle....

here's my list I'm testing

3 Wild Nacatl
3 Loam Lion
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Taiga
3 Savannah
2 Plateau
2 Wasteland
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
2 Arid Mesa
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Sylvan Library
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Lightning Helix
4 Chain Lightning
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Fireblast
4 Qasali Pridemage
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Huntmaster of the Fells
4 Ethersworn Canonist



SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 3 Pyrostatic Pillar
SB: 3 Faerie Macabre
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Shattering Spree


suggestions welcome!!

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Just posting a list with little to no explanation or discussion is rarely useful.

Pretty confidant Death and Taxes is her 'home'. I can't picture a shell that caters to the card more.

Karakas and Mother of Runes protect her. Aether Vial allows her to get past Spell Snare. Wasteland and Rishadan Port (and ideally Flickerwisp, Phyrexian Revoker and Mangara) supplement the mana denial theme. Stoneforge's Equipment utilizes her First Strike.

That's close to 40 cards there, ~10 Plains and 4 Swords to Plowshares, sometimes Oblivion Ring. Then the list tends to run 6-8 agro guys (Serra Avenger, Jotun Grunt, Mirran Crusader).

There was a tournament in Spain that feature two Maverick lists with 3 maindeck Thalias each in the finals. Seems like it fits in well in creature decks just fine.

I'm just curious as to whether Thalia helped, or the power of the Maverick list was sufficient in its role of victory.

Student of warfare is way better than figure of destiny when u play a lot of colorless mana sources. Blocking and killing every non-kotr, non-goyf critter with only 2 extra mana instead of 4 is a big plus too.

I've found the only correct numbers for Jotun are 1 and 2. You never want to cast this card T2 except against dredge. Not reliable. Midgame they're good, and they randomly hose decks, so i usually play 2.

I also don't generally like Vial in decks that don't have a way to refill their hand with creatures (gobbos) or run lot of etb tricks with it(flicker + mangara in D&T).

I've been trying two monowhite decks with her currently. One play artifact heavy, the other don't. Here it is the artifact heavy list (it's a derivative of my old Ivory Stompy deck):


2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Cranial Plating
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Mox Opal
3 Mox Diamond
2 Crucible of Worlds

4 Porcelain Legionnaire
4 Vault Skirge
4 Etched Champion
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Jötun Grunt

4 Mishra's Factory
4 Blinkmoth Nexus
4 Ancient Den
4 Wasteland
5 Plains
1 Eiganjo Castle
1 Karakas

SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 4 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 Meta slots

EDIT: no i don't like my manabase. Like at all. Mox diamond feel so incredibly clunky.

If you are going to play heavy artifact with Thalia, shouldnt you also consider Lodestone Golem?

Isn't there a Soldier Ringleader? Vial Soldiers.dec?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rukcus

Isn't there a Soldier Ringleader? Vial Soldiers.dec?

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Interestingly enough, there is O_O;;

I genuinely did -not- know this existed.

Enlistment Officer Not only is he a soldier ringleader, he's a 2/3 with first-strike to boot.

... *begins fiddling with soldier-tribal*

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kich867

Interestingly enough, there is O_O;;

I genuinely did -not- know this existed.

Enlistment Officer Not only is he a soldier ringleader, he's a 2/3 with first-strike to boot.

... *begins fiddling with soldier-tribal*

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Soldier also has Daru Warchief and a 2W 2/2 first strike Goblin Lackey (don't remember the name though).


4 Champion of the Parish
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Enlistment Officer
4 AEther Vial
2 Jötun Grunt
4 Porcelain Legionnaire
4 Etched Champion
4 Field Marshal
1 Daru Encampment
4 Daru Warchief
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Wasteland
4 Mutavault
10 Plains
2 Karakas
1 Oblivion Ring

Let me save you some research and testing.

Daru Warchief is really bad. Enlistment officer is nearly as bad. Play these and you can be beaten with a single Pithing Needle or Krosan Grip on Aether Vial. You want Preeminent Captain instead. Additionally, soldiers have the problem of having little built-in disruption. Since the deck is definitely slower than Zoo, you need lots of it to compete, so you will have to add it. That probably means a second color.

Soldier tribal is bad. Tribal in general is pretty poor right now.

The problem with slotting her into D&T is that you're playing this card that slows people down, then durdling, thus giving them time to get out from under it. I'd rather just kill them.

Here's something I threw together:

Golem Stompy

// Lands (24)
4 [UNH] Plains
4 [MR] Ancient Den
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [MI] Crystal Vein
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures (18)
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
3 [DKA] Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 [NPH] Blade Splicer
4 [FUT] Aven Mindcensor
4 [WWK] Lodestone Golem

// Spells (18)
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
4 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [NPH] Batterskull
4 [SH] Mox Diamond

// Sideboard (15)
SB: 4 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 4 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
SB: 1 [MBS] Sword of Feast and Famine
SB: 1 [M12] Swiftfoot Boots
SB: 4 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt

I've only played a couple of games, the deck wasn't bad, but definitely Tier 2 at best. Decent for a Stompy deck though. I kinda feel wrong for not running Flagstones, Armageddon, and Crucible.