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[Deck] Death and Taxes
In development since Time Spiral came out, Death and Taxes has become a peculiar kind of control deck. But since it is mostly creatures doing the controlling (with disruption and tricks), it looks like little more than white weenie to the casual observer. It never establishes actual control over the game either. The idea is to aggressively land creatures while creating a difficult environment for the opponent's deck to thrive in. "Taxes" refers to this kind of disruption. The deck wins by delaying or negating elements of the opponent's strategy while its creatures deliver damage. Death and Taxes is not especially fast. The control is not particularly powerful. It does not have a killer combo finish. It does not even have any especially broken cards. What it does have is a strategy that dismantles the engines of other decks and the ability to coax them into playing its game, not their own.
Because of it's generic forms of disruption, Death and Taxes should have a fighting chance against just about every other deck in Legacy when piloted properly. Of course there is a catch! To pilot the deck close to its potential you have to know both your deck and your opponent's deck intimately. Learning both your deck plus basically every deck you will face is a daunting task, especially in Legacy, but it is the nature of this deck to demand - and reward you for it. To assist all of you with this I will try to keep the matchup section up-to-date with the help of the other contributors.
As you can imagine, there are plenty of creatures that have the potential to see play in a deck as broad as this one. There may be references in this primer to cards that are not in the deck that follows. Feel free to experiment with any disruptive creatures you wish, but the decklist here will be pretty close to ideal for competitive Legacy.
What will D+T look like with the new cards in recent sets? This is an estimate.
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Karakas
2 Cavern of Souls
9 Plains
4 Mother of Runes
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Recruiter of the Guard
4 Flickerwisp
2 Sanctum Prelate
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Shalai, Voice of Plenty
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
Sideboard
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Banisher Priest
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Containment Priest
1 Faerie Macabre
2 Mirran Crusader
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Council's Judgment
2 Rest In Peace
2 Enlightened Tutor
Being a mono-colored deck, it lacks the raw power of some of the many-color decks that you will be facing. But Legacy is perennially overloaded with decks trying to eke out every drop from their lands. This results in unstable manabases that can be ransacked. Death and Taxes arguably has the strongest mana denial suite in the format in part because it gets to use more of its lands to deprive those same greedy decks of their mana. This element alone will win plenty of games.
I have a somewhat better detailed, and better upkept thread on this deck here:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=306633
Even better is Phil Gallagher's (Medea_) website specifically for Death and Taxes:
http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/
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Re: [Deck]Death and Taxes
1) Have you tried Pithing Needles, at least in the sideboard? Every time I've played against D&T it crapped its pants at the sight of an Engineered Explosives, let alone a Pernicious Deed.
2) Is the good Ichorid matchup supposed to apply even to newer Narcobridge builds? I tried Bane of the Living's last list yesterday, and since its fundamental turn is 2-3, I find it hard to believe that Stonecloakers and Grunts are a big threat for the deck. New Ichorid plays a lot more like storm combo, except with dredgers instead of Rituals.
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Re: [Deck]Death and Taxes
Nice primer. Mine as well share my list for the new thread
Lands(22)
3 plains
4 scrubland
7 fetches
4 wasteland
4 karakas
Creatures(21)
4 serra avenger
4 Silver knight
4 Dark confidant
3 Mangara
3 Isamaru
3 jotun grunt
Control(10)
4 Stp
3 mana tithe
3 Cataclysm
Utility(7)
4 Vial
3 Jitte
Sideboard
4 Chalice
4 Tormod's crypt
3 Duress
3 E plauge
1 Cataclysm
The black splash gives this deck some draw, better combo hate, and the best answer to goblins. My list doesnt run samurai yet because its Im still testing it. I also dont run stonecloaker (with jittes, mangara lock, cards from confidant i think its a bad investment for your mana). Also wasteland has been better then port in testing.
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Re: [Deck]Death and Taxes
I think it should be noted that when using Mangara on your opponent's turn, you activate it, your opponent gets priority, then you can bounce it.
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Re: [Deck]Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Sacul Kamadaka
I think it should be noted that when using Mangara on your opponent's turn, you activate it, your opponent gets priority, then you can bounce it.
That is a common misconception. After a player has played a spell or an ability, that very same player gets priority back, regardless of whose turn it is. The active player gets priority first only at the beginning of a new step or after an object on the stack has resolved.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
I am very sure you get priority before things resolve not after!
You could put a lot of things on the stack but befor the stack resolves he will get priority even with split second...
EDIT: after reading your post 3 times i realize you are right! But anyways your opponent could shoot your mangare before you bounce him...
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Hey Finn, don't mean to clutter up the thread space but congratulations! I've been out of Magic for several months now, but I remember the early stages of this deck. Lots have changed since then!
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Re: [Deck]Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
PhaerimmArchlord
i built another d+t list for mad mankins they where almost the same he had +1 port +1 wastland -1 samuri -1 flaggstones his sb had 3x pithing N and no grunts.
i ran
white list with 2x cataclysm 3x samuri 3x port and 3x wastland
my sb was
3x abolish
3x orms chant
2x tivadar of thorn
3x powder keg
4x rebuff the wicked (my block constucted tec) witch was awsome it stoped so many thins it was another counterspell out of left field.with stonecloker my guys never really died.....ever.....i also kept jitte when the disenchant/whatever to remove it. no STPing Avenger in g2 no sink hole. it was good.
i split with mankins at the dragons lair after we went 3/1/1 each
then we went to of the wall games at 6
i won the swiss mankins placed 2nd 4/0(me) mankins only loss was to me.
by the way the mirror is a bitch. rebuff ftw in g2 to stop his STP on my jitted avenger.:cool: another 60 in credit 4 me and 35 for mankins:laugh:
Proper capitalization and punctuation are required on these boards. Please use them in the future. - Zilla
Yes thats D&T taking 1st and 2nd in two tournamens in one day. Sick.
I honestly think the Ichorid matchup is unfavorable.. Samurai does help but as long as your opponent doesnt mulligan to oblivion or play into your Mana Tithes I think D&T is in danger of losing the early game. Getting Jitte online will almost always end it though..
Nice to see this deck finally start getting the respect its long deserved.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihil
1) Have you tried Pithing Needles, at least in the sideboard? Every time I've played against D&T it crapped its pants at the sight of an Engineered Explosives, let alone a Pernicious Deed.
2) Is the good Ichorid matchup supposed to apply even to newer Narcobridge builds? I tried Bane of the Living's last list yesterday, and since its fundamental turn is 2-3, I find it hard to believe that Stonecloakers and Grunts are a big threat for the deck. New Ichorid plays a lot more like storm combo, except with dredgers instead of Rituals.
1. I have not. I don't see any particular reason why you shouldn't if that crap is a problem. Pernicious Deed can kiss my ass, though. It's really good in games when you don't draw enough creatures. Explosives, I have never had a problem with, as it usually only gets about two permanents. Thing is about board sweepers, you rarely have more than a couple of creatures and an artifact out anyway, except against the kinds of decks that don't play those cards. What was the circumstance that made it such a big play?
2. Yes. Well, sorta. My own experiences have been mostly positive, but I am inclined to think I have been lucky a lot. If you have Samurai or Grunt in play on turn two, you can last long enough to get something like an Avenger w/Jitte or repeated Stonecloaker uses to seal the deal. But even a surprise blocker that dies and removes bridges can be good. That is the sort of things I have done. But there is no backup plan in this matchup. Ichy really plays like combo in that sense. Cataclysm is a short term solution, and Mangara lock has been useless for me. As for PhaerimmArchlord, I think he made a deal with the devil or something, because apparently he always gets the cards he needs every game in a deck with no draw. So I don't really know what to say about his games.
@Faluzure - thx. Good to see you back.
@Cthulu - Yes, they can. The good players do. But you still got a 2-for-1 atleast. I can't tell you how many times I have played people who get upset that they shot a Lightning Bolt at Serra Avenger the turn before only to see Mangara off a vial on turn 4.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TrialByFire
D+T. Raping a Masachusetts meta near you.
Sigged for truth :laugh:
Edit: I just saw a interesting card that may be good enough to sideboard
Vengeful dreams WW
As a additional cost discard X cards from your hand
Remove X target attacking creatures from the game.
This card is good against most aggro decks. I knowthat this deck already has a good matchup against them, but this card does look strong. just throwing it out there.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Sheesh, this change of venue took long enough. D+T is the deck to beat in Alabama. Landstill is big, and Ichy too, but this one seems to be the fav for a while now. Can't believe WW is winning.
About Vengeful Dreams, even with all the potential for duplicate legendary stuff, I still don't tend to have extra stuff in my hand very often. I am iffy on this card. What's wrong with Condemn?
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
@Finn & PhaerimmArchlord: My build of D&T is one of the earlier ones. Back then, I remember specifically that we were trying to figure out what creature was best for the 2CC slot.
Anyway, I noticed that Hokori, Dust Drinker is totally out of the deck altogether. now. I noticed that Finn did mention him as a "other popular" card. I can attest to the fact that he has won me many games with his soft lock. Of course in match ups where he was useless, I always sideboarded him out. I was wondering what lead to the dismissal of Hokori. I assume it was because of the inclusion of Cataclysm?
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Is there a list with the blue splash?
I think whene you make a splash keep the splash very light! That means much fetches few tundras and maby one island! Wasteland isnt that problem because we play anyways a Karakas!
Mana thithe = Daze
random beater = Meddling Mage
and for sure Brainstorm!
I dont know what cards to cut...
Could someone post a list?
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
I just realized that you run explosives in that list. What was your reasoning behind this. It seems like explosives would hurt you alot and sometimes more then your opponent.
Edit: I also am looking forward to Lorwyn. Does D&T get any new/playable cards from this set.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
@PhaerimmArchlord: Another question: Since you are already running blue, a few 1cc artifacts and set your Vial to 3, why not Trinket Mage? Most likely it's overkill, but i would hear some opinions about that.
PS: Please use proper capitalization and punctuation - your posts are a pain in the ass to read in the current state.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
I have been trying out 8.5 Tails. It's pretty handy to have in the True Believer spot for game one, and then in the Mana Tithe spot for games two and three. Has anyone else tried out this strategy?
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
I tried it, but it was only really good in topdeck mode. At any other times, spending three mana to counter a removal spell tended to be a worse option than just doing something else with the mana; using the ability to dodge/survive combat basically never came up since it was unneeded if I had a Jitte or an Avenger, and if I had neither I wasn't going to win the race or even trade successfully.
I agree that True Believer is too often a Grizzly Bear to deserve a maindeck slot (at least in any meta where you'd want to play D&T). I believe the best choices in replacement are either 2 maindeck Grunts, which are amazing 85% of the time and terrible the remaining 15%; or Samurai of the Pale Curtain #3-4, which have a very useful ability and always trade with a Mongoose (unlike my old favourite Knight of the Holy Nimbus). Power vs. consistency, essentially.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
With a new anti-combo bomb revealed, is it worth now to consider a green splash? It would give you Tarmogofy as well, although the deck rather lacks ways to utilize it.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Tarmogofy as well, although the deck rather lacks ways to utilize it
When will people understand, that, as everybody is playing this creature, there is no gain in playing suboptimal cards just to pump it up. Just play it in order to make your opponent waste some creature removal or to block your opponent's tarmo. That's stupid, but that's the clever way to play it.
I believe taht Death and Taxes would be the only deck that would take advantage of this new card, except that it prevents you to play Cataclysm. You know better than me if it's affordable to abandon the cataclysm.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Maveric78f
When will people understand, that, as everybody is playing this creature, there is no gain in playing suboptimal cards just to pump it up. Just play it in order to make your opponent waste some creature removal or to block your opponent's tarmo. That's stupid, but that's the clever way to play it.
I believe taht Death and Taxes would be the only deck that would take advantage of this new card, except that it prevents you to play Cataclysm. You know better than me if it's affordable to abandon the cataclysm.
I agree with your first paragraph.
Edit: Nevermind. Reading comprehension = 0.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Mana Tithe
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
3 Gaddock Teeg
4 Serra Avenger
3 Silver Knight
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Stonecloaker
3 Mangara of Corondor
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Karakas
4 Wasteland
2 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Windswepth Heath
4 Savannah
3 Plains
1 Forest
sb:
1 Condemn
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Orim's Chant
3 Krosan Grip
3 Tivadar of Thorn
3 Cataclysm
Here's my attempt at a quickly cobbled together G/W tax list, I don't know if the lands would work, and I don't have MWS at the moment to playtest, but I imagine it would look something like this. Basically I copy/pasted the sample list in the opening post, then browsed over the U/W list in the thread also. Of the things that were taken out, I think Pale Curtain definitely might have room in the SB, maybe over Tivadar since you may not need the oomph against goblins. Another card I like is Rancor, although I couldn't find room for it without playtesting.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
The cool thing with Teeg is that he's another target for Karakas.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Yeah, this guy is killing me. Obviously he is very good, but follow me on this line of reasoning. His ability is rally good for hosing combo, so we include him. Without even getting into the design holes that opens up, we need to answer "is the splash worth it?". Well, in the past, people have splashed blue for Meddling Mage and/or Stifle. That was good enough in a combo heavy meta, but it detracted somewhat from the deck's speed and tricksie abilities to the point that most folks would agree the monowhite is generally better. So is this guy more of a hassle on combo (and possibly control) than the blue splash would be? It seems likely that the answer is squarely "no". Therefor we need to explore reasons to splash Green to see if this guy is worth it. So what other avenues does the Green splash open up then?
Watchwolf
Captain Sisay
Crop Rotation
Tarmogoyf
I think that there is no room for Watchwolf right now. And what Captain Sisay does (makes for great long game and inevitability) is better performed by Cataclysm. Crop Rotation is quite good in this deck (with Karakas and Flagstones in particular), but usually unnecessary due to the low cost of your spells. Finally, Tarmogoyf is tempting as always, but consider that this deck has so many measures aimed at disrupting graveyards (which happen to similarly disrupt Tarmos) that there would be a considerable change required to make him work - thereby diminishing the graveyard hate to some degree. It might be a good tradeoff, but it probably is not since the first card to sub it in for is Jotun Grunt which is very similar in size, and is a good hoser for opposing Tarmos, et al.
So is Gaddock Teeg himself going to be useful enough to warrant the Green Splash? I think probably not. One last thought, though. The ability to protect him with Karakas (and to a lesser degree, Stonecloaker) makes him pretty hard to kill. He has this going for him, and it is not a trivial advantage.
BIG EDIT after seeing sammiel's post: Cataclysm is so much better than every other card at doing what it does that it should NEVER be relegated to the sb unless your meta is about 75% Threshold.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Isao, Enlightened Bushi is something I tinkered around with in other decks in the past. Trades with most of the creatures in the format, and either bounces or regenerates if you have the land open.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
When I looked at the card I immediately thought this deck. Remember that as long as you've got Karakas, you can return him to your hand when you want to resolve Cataclysm. I don't think, the lack of synergy would be unbearable.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
It is going to be very hard to get the mana right, and who is willing to fry up the lands for this one guy? My crystal ball fails me here. Look at sammiel's list. It has 9 Green mana sources. The word here is "ugh". You could maneuvre it some more, but that opens you up to stuff like Blood Moon and land destruction which have never been effective against this deck in the past. And I think the guy is sb material.
I'm interested, don't get me wrong. Just cautious.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
as I said, the manabase is kind of atrocious because I can't actually do any playtesting atm, and I have never played with or against this deck, I'm just interested in it, since I have about half the cards I need for the green splash.
I would not splash green for only Teeg, but I do see your point against Goyf, I guess I'm on the fence about his inclusion.
*edit*
Although I do strongly disagree about green not being more disruptive than blue. Teeg shuts off EtW and Tendrils in storm combo, Dread Return vs Breakfast and Ichorid, as well as stopping Wrath, EE, Disk, and Fact against landstill, and FoW against everyone. Maybe it's better to return cataclysm to the MD and bounce him/wait for him to eat it before you drop your bomb, but Teeg is a house.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Teeg also shuts down Goblin Charbelcher, so he basically covers all the major combo's win cards and engines (Ill-Gotten Gains, Diminishing Returns). Overall, rather solid in colours traditionally weak against combo.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Vial eases the problem of consistently getting Green mana.
IMO, playing Gaddock + Goyf as a replacement for Grunt + random 2-drop (in my case Samurai) offers the following trade:
- combo hate
- a permanent 5/6 instead of a temporary 4/4
- increased Legend count
- resilience to mass sweepers (stops everything but Deed, including Engineered Explosives)
in exchange for
- graveyard and Tarmogoyf hate
- a 2/2 Bushido instead of a vanilla 2/2 (a debatable improvement because of Karakas)
Unless your meta is dominated by Ichorid (Breakfast doesn't count because Gaddock hoses it too), I think this trade isn't even close. I'm putting the two fuckers in my main deck and making room for some Tormod's Crypts in the sideboard, right now.
Set aside the combo matchup, where a resolved Gaddock is as close to gg as it comes. Picture the following against a control deck: Needle on Pernicious Deed, and Gaddock in play with a Karakas or Stonecloaker available. That's just plain sexy.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
When I saw this card I immediately thought of D&T.
Its a shame to play a spash in this deck but with goyf and this guy it seems worth it.
The sinergy with karakas is great so you can keep playing cataclysm.
Im just trowing some idea's here but how do you feel about a couple of life from the loam in this deck?
It seems like a nice card for this deck if you want to play green.
4 Plains
4 Savanah
4 Wasteland
4 Karakas
4 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Windswepth Heath
3 Isamaru
3 Mangara
3 goyf
4 Serra Avenger
3 Stonecloaker
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Jitte
2 life from the loam or crop rotation
4 StP
3 Mana Tithe
3 Cataclysm
4 Aether Vial
Its a rough version but i think it may have potential.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Nightbringer, you realize that your posted decklist has exactly 6 Green mana sources, right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihil
IMO, playing Gaddock + Goyf as a replacement for Grunt + random 2-drop (in my case Samurai) offers the following trade:
- combo hate
- a permanent 5/6 instead of a temporary 4/4
- increased Legend count
- resilience to mass sweepers (stops everything but Deed, including Engineered Explosives)
- increased sensitivity to mana hate of all kinds
- no reasonable way to keep the current beneficial lands (Karakas, Port, Wasteland, Flagstones) at their current levels
- A real problem with Cataclysm
in exchange for
- graveyard and Tarmogoyf hate
- a 2/2 Bushido instead of a vanilla 2/2 (a debatable improvement because of Karakas)
I have an idea.
Artifact
4 Aether Vial
3 Umezawa's Jitte
White
3 Isamaru
3 Mangara
4 Serra Avenger
3 Stonecloaker
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Mana Tithe
3 Cataclysm
Gold
3 Gaddock
Green
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Crop Rotation
Land
3 Karakas
3 Flagstones
1 Rishidan Port
1 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Savannah
4 Temple Garden
sb:
4 Orim's Chant
2 Mana Tithe
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Tivadar of Thorn
3 Jotun Grunt
2 Disenchant
To balance the mana, you have to make some hard choices, but it is a little easier with Crop Rotation. And Crop Rotation is a VERY good card to be holding against opposing Wastelands. In particular, I like the way sideboarding is shaping up here.
The combo matchup should be STRONG with this setup.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Nightbringer, you realize that your posted decklist has exactly 6 Green mana sources, right?
That's why I said its a rough version :wink:
Maybe it would be better to play 2 temple garden and 2 plains and a basic forest.
The manabase would look like this then
2 Plains
2 temple garden
1 Forest
4 Savanah
3 Wasteland
3 Karakas
3 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Windswepth Heath
I don't play the port in my list because it don't realy like it in my meta.
For the rest of the deck im not sure to play
- 3 or 4 serra avengers opposed to 3 or 4 goyf.
- Crop rotation or life from the loam (or both)?
- 1 Sword of fire and ice (ive been testing this and i like it)
Sideboard looks very nice indeed!
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
My current mana base is:
2 [UNH] Plains
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
3 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
4 [LG] Karakas
1 [UNH] Forest
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [PR] Savannah
I could only do two-fisted testing for now, but playing Goyf and Gaddock was never a problem, although a couple of times I had to rely on Aether Vial.
It's worth noting, though, that I run Sensei's Divining Top to smooth my draws (becomes even better with the fetchlands, btw) and have moved to the SB the Cataclysms - not because I didn't like the spell, but because it was the least painful cut.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
I think that 8 or 9 green sources should be enough because they workt out nicely in the other version that use a splash.
I never had problems to get them in to play like with that manabase.
What do PhaerimmArchlord and Finn think of the adition of green by the way?
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Uh, Force of Will in response to vial activation?
and are you seriously talking about making the deck 3 color? it's hard to follow your post.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
How much are you actually using the Guildmage's abilities? Three mana is a ton. I sometimes win without even seeing three mana in this deck.
Also, Gaddock stops Deed and EE even better (ie. no need to keep three mana open all the time). With that guy in the deck, Guildmage becomes a bad Benalish Trapper mixed with a terrible Hokori, Dust Drinker (and Hokori was terrible already).
PS: I think "midnight oil" is code for some sort of illegal hippie pinko commie drug, which may explain PhaerimmArchlord's impaired syntax.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nihil
Also, Gaddock stops Deed and EE even better (ie. no need to keep three mana open all the time). .
How does Gaddock stop Deed? Deed is :1::b::g:
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Maybe the situations are different here, but this is all starting to sound eerily like the endless attempts to splash several colors into Angel Stompy that never quite panned out. This -is- a white deck.
Teeg is a powerhouse, and so is Mage, but going for both might be going too far.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
If Sphere of Resistance is a consideration among any of you, try Glowrider instead. Just FYI
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
I play sphere in my sideboard, and not glowrider. Sphere comes down one turn earlier, and that is important in the matchups where you side it in (Combo and ********)