Does this list pretty much fold to Chalice on 2? I am debating running this list next weekend at a local Chicago Legacy tourney. Seems to be very good for the meta I’m expecting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Johanovich
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Does this list pretty much fold to Chalice on 2? I am debating running this list next weekend at a local Chicago Legacy tourney. Seems to be very good for the meta I’m expecting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Johanovich
I suppose so, but Chalice probably gets boarded out for both decks most likely. And a decent amount of chalice decks themselves can be weak to a chalice on 2Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister_Lamp
Went undefeated at my weekly Legacy event again. Same deck as last time, though I think I'll be making some changes going forward.
Round 1 vs Miracles:
Game 1 a turn 1 Chalice shuts off a lot of his action, and I'm able to aggro him to death. Game 2 was much grindier, as he brought in Disenchants (coupled with Snapcaster) and hit a few miracle'd Terminus. Karn making tokens and Thought-Knot stripping the last piece of interaction from his hand eventually seals it.
1-0, 2-0
Round 2 vs MUD:
Same guy as last time, though I think this time I was able to navigate the matchup even better. Game 1 was won via Steel Overseer getting out of hand quickly and Wasteland cutting off his Cloudposts. Game 2 was pretty grindy, as he was able to stay alive via Wurmcoil and Kuldotha Forgemaster fetching up a Platinum Emperion, which required me to move my Ravager counters over to a Ballista to shoot it down. One notable play was me blind naming Karn Liberated with a Revoker, which turned out to be game changing as Karn was intended to be his next play. I also tutored up a second Revoker with Inventors' Fair to name Spellskite so that his active Spellskite couldn't steal Ravager's modular counters. Eventually got there with an overwhelming board, namely buffed up Vault Skirges in the air.
2-0, 2-0
Round 3 vs Elves:
Game 1 was essentially won with a turn 1 Chalice and an early Steel Overseer. Game 2 was won via Jitte and Lodestone Golem.
3-0, 2-0
All in all, the deck feels awesome. However, I think I'll be cutting the two Swamps for something else, whether it be the white splash shown above or the red splash I've seen elsewhere. This will give me access to different sideboard options. The Swamps just never really mattered, as I still mostly wanted to cast Skirge for 1 mana and 2 life. I see some lists eschewing Lodestone Golems for other creatures, such as Thought-Knot main, but I've really liked them. I can potentially see cutting some number of Revokers from the main to add a Hangarback Walker or two.
I guess :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister_Lamp
Never played with this list though.
On another note, I played with this list in the Belgian Legacy Cup finals in december, finishing 6th.
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's factory
4 Wasteland
2 Inventor's Fair
2 Darksteel Citadel
1 Karakas
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Steel Overseer
4 Walking Ballista
4 Vault Skirge
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Etched Champion
2 Hangarback Walker
1 Chief of the Foundry
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 karn, scion of urza
3 Lotus Petal
3 Mox Opal
SB:
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Ratchet Bomb
3 Karn, Scion of Urza
1 Umezawa's Jitte
I had amassed two byes by finishing second in the overall seasonal standings, so only needed three wins before being able to draw into top8. I mulled in the majority of games, but this did not stop the power of the deck.
R1 bye
R2 bye
R3 sneaky show 2-0
G1 I have too much pressure and kill him despite an emrakul.
G2 he goes t2 show into emrakul and I drop bridge. I assemble two overseer and ballista to secure a quick win afterwards.
R4 sneaky show 2-0
G1 he counters chalice but the pressure is too much.
G2 he gets sneak attack in play and sneaks griseldaddy in. He doesn't draw 7 and passes the turn. I remind him that griselbrand dies and because we're already past the beginning of end step he doesn't get to draw 7. I topdeck and play spyglass on sneak, following it up with karakas the next turn which wins me the game.
R5 infect 2-1
G1 I know he is on infect so ballista is a priority, however my hand of 6 is too good to mull but is maybe a tad slow depending on my draws. He gets in a few times with glistener elf (with hierarch for the pump). He drops two more hierarchs so I chump with skirge. I waste his land and revoke the hierarchs to manascrew him. Afterwards I drop karn and make a 6/6 token which stonewalls his elf. I finally find ballista and clean up.
G2 I remember narrowly losing this game due to having 1 mana short to completely wipe his board with ballista.
G3 lockpieces + pressure is too much for him.
R6 ID with teammate
R7 ID with teammate
One of my teammates is 6-0-1, and I and another teammate are 5-0-2. There were some weird pairings, causing several people with 5-1 to be downpaired. This unfortunately caused two people to jump above us because they had to play (and won). This means I have to play against my teammate with UW miracles, who I would have preferred to not meet until the finals (he won the event and is now the belgian champion for the third year in a row).
QF miracles 1-2
G1 He keeps a one-lander because he has double fow + double blue card and swords. My chalice and champion get forced but I have steady pressure and chief of the foundry really pulled its weight here, causing easily 6+ damage over two turns and providing just enough reach to close the game.
G2 I get karn but he gets exiled by the council. I again have steady pressure but he keeps finding removal. I manage to get him to 3 life and he drops gideon to make a 2/2. I have a 3/3 overseer so I have 7 lethal draws (1 champion, 2 ballista, 2 bomb and 2 fair to get them). I topdeck a land so attack and he chumps. Turn after he drops baneslayer angel (4 outs left, 2 ballista and 2 fair). I don't find an answer and he takes the game
G3 I have thorn, but no sol lands. I have 4 lands in play with a few threats when he drops back to basics. I have the choice of deploying more threaths and hope to get there or drop ratchet bomb and hope to blow up btb. I decide to go for the first and he topdecks terminus, GG
The finals were UW miracles against the only other steel stompy player present, so all in all again a good performance of the deck.
With that, I'm probably shelving the deck for now. I've had loads of fun last year and great successes with the robots, but as now most people who know me expect this deck I feel this is the correct time to make a switch.
I played the deck recently with great succsess in small tournaments, but there is one MU, which is very hard to win Miracles.
I have 2 sideboardslots besides 2 Karn. What do you all think, that the best cards are. I tested Winter orb, but i am not sure if it is the right choice.
Possible Cards: Armageddon, Winter Orb, Choke, Thalia Heretic Chathar, Boil, more Karns?
Thoughts?
I'm working on the deck as well, still have lot of testing to do with Miracles first on the list. For now I'm beginning with one or two Tree of Tales mainboard and Choke in the side. Hope that works.Quote:
Originally Posted by Man of Steel
can you go into some depth as to why you feel the matchup is difficult? are they playing cards like back to basics or are you unable to get enough damage through etc..?Quote:
Originally Posted by Man of Steel
Just won a couple games in my first side event at the GP. 2 rounds and drop because the value is so high kind of stinks, but deck feel good. Beat storm and lands. Ballista is a good card it turns out. Will be playing in the double value event later on. List isn't anything particularly interesting
First of all the MU is difficult because of back to Basics but that is a Problem a have to life with. If thorn of Amythist can`t Prevent B2B from hitting the Battlefield, i got a Problem. My Question is: Do i want a hatecard like B2B for myself (Armaggedon, choke, winter orb) or do i want difficult to deal with threats (Karn, Etched Champion, Man lands)?Quote:
Originally Posted by mistercakes
But the real issue is that miracles has the 1 mana sweeper and if you Play around Terminus , most of the time you will be beaten by monastery mentor
Ended up going 4-2 on the weekend with the deck. Should've been a clean 5-0 though. I just completely fucked up Ravager math, probably still would've won anyway, and then scooped in frustration at myself. Deck felt incredibly competitive, and just runs away with so many games. I think I'll just practice with Ravager in modern to get some reps, but I think this deck will be my go to for the moment in lieu of painter
Towards the Miracles MU:
I tested that frequently with a friend who is a long-time Miracles pilot. Here are some hints I may give:
-though Terminus is a problem, getting early damage in is crucial for winning the long game
-to protect yourself against much early interaction, I recommend running at least 3 Thorn of Amethyst and 3 Lodestone Golem main
-I also have 4 Etched Champion, 2 Karn, 1 Sword of Fire and Ice and 2 Umezawa's Jitte in my 75
-Manlands are best at getting the last points of damage through (and Walking Ballista), but always think of Back to Basics when activating them - don't tap out if you can attack with a second Factory after B2B resolved
-Ravager and Ballista are a nice combination to turn your board into direct damage when Terminus is on the stack
Here my list (mostly the same from earlier posts):
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
2 Inventors' Fair
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Lotus Petal
3 Mox Opal
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Walking Ballista
4 Vault Skirge
4 Steel Overseer
4 Arcbound Ravager
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Etched Champion
3 Lodestone Golem
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Karn, Scion of Urza
Sideboard:
3 Ratchet Bomb
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Etched Champion
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Karn, Scion of Urza
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Leyline of the Void
Greetings
@ Hinterweltler: Thanks for your input, but i have some questions for you
1. Do you really like lodestone golem in the MU against Miracles? I think most of the time we expent to much resources to cast it and as a creature its to easy to handle for them. I aggree on Thorn of Amythist. At the moment i run 3 main and 1 in the sb.
2. How good is Etched champion and Sofi? My plan at the moment is 2 Smugglers Copter and Chief of the foundry, which works quiet well. And why jitte against Miracles?
3. What are you taking out in the Matchup?
Lodestone Golem is important as another taxing effect. Without it, you have 7 taxing effects (4 Chalices, 3 Spheres) but I recommend to have 10 at least.
The plan of Etched Champion (with Metalcraft) + Equipment is strong for sure - that is why I would at least think about boarding the Jitte.
Overall, my boarding plan looks like:
Out:
4 Vault Skirge
2 Phyrexian Revoker / Steel Overseer
In:
3 Ratchet Bomb
2 Etched Champion
1 Karn
The Vault Skirges are tempo-advantages, thereby unnecessary in this MU I think. You don't fear to be raced, but to be pushed out of the game via Terminus. Boarding out Revoker or Overseer is a matter of taste - you won't have targets for Revoker that often, and Overseer looks quite horrible against StP and Terminus.
The Ratchet Bombs are for B2B, though I'll cast it as soon as possible and tick it up to 3.
If I want more equipment (maybe in game 3), I'd probably board out more Overseers. A charged Jitte makes up for the lack of +1/+1 counters, plus it gets rid of blue Ambush Vipers and non-prowessed Monks.
So far, this plan showed to be quite effective (in testing). I played like 10 games last time, and I remember it to be like 50/50. Just don't scoop it up if you fall behind - this deck has ways to come back. There was a game when I had 0 nonlands after a Terminus - then I drew Chalice, then Thorn, then had Metalcraft up with a Darksteel Citadel (no Karakas yet) and Inventors' Fair. Though I tutored SoFI, and every tiny robot I drew turned into a lethal threat. I won that game with Factory beats.
Greetings
After the Testing yesterday, i have to consider another bad MU (Grixis Control).
In my experience Miracles and Grixis Control are bad MUs, but i think both MUs can be solved via the same Sideboard cards Karn, Scion of Urza.
Here is my current Decklist:
4 Walking Ballista
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Steel Overseer
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Vault Skirge
3 Chief of the Foundry 23
3 Mox Opal
4 Lotus Petal
2 Smuggler`s Copter
3 Thorn of Amythist
4 Chalice of the Void 16
Lands (21):
1 Inventor`s Fair
2 Karakas
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Mishra`s Factory
2 Tower of the Magistrate
4 Wasteland
Sideboard:
2 Spellskite
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Karn, Scion of Urza
1 Thorn of Amythist
Against Miracles:
- 4 Lotus Petal
- 1 Revoker
+ 4 Karn
+ 1 Thorn of Amythist
Grixis Control
- 3 Thorn of Amythist
- 1 Karakas
- 2 Lotus Petal
+ 2 Spellskite
+ 4 Karn
Thoughts??
I like seeing other players using copters aswell, it's been one of the most solid beaters since I first included it. For the Grixis Control MU I'd opt for Hangarback Walkers first and foremost, but since I'm on a skirgeless 4-Karn list... It's a lot easier to find room for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Man of Steel
Karn should do it nontheless, never lost a game vs Grixis when resolving him.
What do you have Tower o M for?
@Tucane:
Tower of the Magistrate are in the deck for two reasons.
1. Attack into Baleful strix and give the blocked Creature protection
2. Give opposing Creatures, wich are equipped, protection so that the equitment falls of. Mainly Batterskull (SFM)
In cornercase scenarios it breaks the mirror and wins against MUD, but the two reasons listed above are what made them make the list
It might be more Useful to play more manlands, but the towers impressed me against Strix so much, that i will keep them
Btw. Copter is a great Cardselection Tool and with chief its bolt- and Delverproof
Is there a reason nobody plays Warping Wail? It counters stuff like terminus and show and tell while also can be removal for problem creatures from the opponent like a revoker or something.
the problem with Warping vail is:
holding up mana to counter terminus hurts your own development to much. If you hold up mana, then B2B beats you all the time. And the nonbo with Thorn is sigificant.
Countering show and tell is unnecessary, because bridge and thorn can beat sneak and show by itself
to your point Vail as a removel: Its a very good Removel for revoker and sfm, but the most problematic creatures are uneffected by the Vail. Mentor, TNN, flipped delver, tarmogoyf, angler
So the plan against Miracles is just to play lock pieces and then try to tip toe around terminus?Quote:
Originally Posted by Man of Steel
the plan is playing lock pices and as much threats as possible, that aren`t effected by terminus (Mishra`s Factory, Karn, Copter)
and while doing that aply as much pressure as you can