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Even though I don't use it myself, as I understand it Rotwalla is more condicional since it depends solely on Phantasmagorian/Therapy while, between extra Hogaaks/Shells/Trolls/OUaT's, Dryad'll seldom, if ever, be short on cards to enable it. Also it kills Thalia and Containment Priest (and survives).Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
Only real upside of Rotwalla is being resistant to countermagic.
So I was looking at this card, and it seems so close to being playable, and I would love if it could do something:
Tormod, the Desecrator
It's a free trigger (we love that), it rewards us for doing what we are already doing (getting closer to playable), and can create massive advantage over just a few turns. Is it just too expensive? I think I already know the answer, it's just too bad that a sweet card like this can't be valuable in Legacy.
We get a zombie every time we dredge, we get a zombie every time we flashback Cabal Therapy, we get a zombie every time we resolve a Dread Return, and we get a zombie every time we resolve a Narcomoeba trigger. This is like a reverse Bride from Below where instead of creatures being sacrificed it's anything that leaves our graveyard. In the face of early graveyard interaction (where we can't Dread Return this guy) he is just as useless as any other DR target.
In what situations do you prefer it to:
Balustrade Spy
Lotleth Giant
Syr Konrad, the Grim
Thassa’s Oracle
The low-hanging fruit is Stifle, which completely hoses all of those win conditions save Syr Konrad, and honestly there may not be any other reasons. I think the more appropriate comparison would be Hogaak. Both are legendary, both are cards that support a more aggro approach rather than a combo approach. Hogaak has his own built-in Reanimate though while Tormod does not. The tokens entering tapped makes this a little awkward as well.
One angle is that if you DR a Tormod, opponent's might not be inclined to counter it with Force of Will/Negation. They may try and grind through it so they have the Force for Balustrade Spy, Thassa's Oracle, etc. In that sense Tormod can be something that increases threat density that can overwhelm meaningful non-graveyard interaction.
More than anything it's a thought experiment, something to just discuss. I'm not saying its great, I'm not even advocating for Tormod's inclusion. It's just a cool card that may have been overlooked.
EDIT: Tricks with Tormod are also a possibility, as in using Surgical/Faerie Macabre on your own cards to counter your opponent's Surgical/Cling to Dust. You end up with some value afterwards that you wouldn't normally get. It's niche, but anything going past the first few turns this ends up being something that can create inevitability, even in the face of grave hate.
EDIT #2: I'm not 100% sure what it's interaction with Grafdigger's Cage would be. I know it prevents cards from entering the battlefield from the graveyard, but it doesn't prevent cards from leaving the graveyard completely.
If I were to go into a legacy tournament tomorrow, this is definitely the deck I would bring. I think there is a strong argument for Creeping Chill + Hogaak beats as a focus, simply because Stifle has upticked in a huge way. Stifle completely stops Balustrade Spy and Whirlpool Rider, so just having some strong inevitability to grind away with Hogaak/Ichorids/zombies/Creeping Chills seems pretty good.
Hi,
long time without making a comment on this topic (my favorite deck). With modern Horizon II, we have now new possibility. 2 cards seems really good : GRIEF and ENDURANCE
The advantage of ENDURANCE :
With the Evoque cost, if you have a Bridge from Below in your graveyard, you create 2/2 zomby token
If you are playing ONCE UPON A TIME, you can find them, wich is an alternative of finding (most of the time) Street Wraith
Force of vigor is really common now in our SB. With endurance wich need also green cards, the choice to play a Green Manaless is reinforced.
The advantage of GRIEF :
With the Evoque cost, if you have a Bridge from Below in your graveyard, you create 2/2 zomby token
If you are playing ONCE UPON A TIME, you can find them, wich is an alternative of finding (most of the time) Street Wraith
playing 4 Cabal Therapy is really good, but now I really want to test MD 4 Cabal Therapy + 4 unmask + 4 grief + 4 Once upon a time (to find grief) making our deck control !!! and as said before, you can create token with the Evoque cost : this can potentially help us to cast Cabal Therapy.
T1 discard dredge, T2 grief + Cabal Therapy is really strong.
Here is one list with GRIEF:
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Unmask
4 GRIEF
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Narcomoeba
2 Prized Amalgam
4 Street Wraith
4 Once Upon a Time
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Bridge from Below
3 Dread Return
3 Balustrade Spy
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
Hi,
I tried also to make a list "GREEN Manaless" including Endurance. Some of you will ask why Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis is not present MD. It' s possible, maybe 2 is OK but I have not found the place.
"GREEN Manaless"
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug
2 Shambling Shell
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Narcomoeba
2 Prized Amalgam
4 Dryad Arbor
3 Land Grant
4 Street Wraith
4 Once Upon a Time
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return
3 Balustrade Spy
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 Endurance
SB: 4 Force of Vigor
SB: 3 Reverent Silence
This version seems a little bit less powerfull MD compary to black version. But We are strong with SB and have a real alternative against Graveyard and graveyard haste.
Dryad and spy is a nombo. In this case spy should be one of the whirlpool creatures.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bougnat
I am currently testing greif md atm and it is to soon for me to tell yet. Still tweaking numbers. Haven't tested endurance yet but will definitely do it at some point. I could see a full green sideboard plan with force and endurance going forward for sure.
Good afternoon, Manaless Brothers!
I am Raffaele Farina, and I'm honored my list and results picked your interest!
I'm a passionate Manaless player, and I still experiment the archetype in many different ways!
A side note: I placed 1st in both events you spoke of. There was a mistake from the event moderators to list the top 8 accordingly (Arcana League - Italy)
There was also a mistake in uploading my list.
The first list I piloted included 4 Hogaaks and NO Shambling Shell at all. I played with 12 dredgers.
In my second performance, same list but a difference in SB (4 Leyline of Sanctity to replace Mindbreak Traps, and I still bless em!), while I kept 1 Ashen Rider MD instead of the 4th Hogaak (this is still my actual configuration) gaining a slot in SB for 1 Vengeful Pharaoh.
I hope I'm welcomed in this community!
I'm here to answer any question and, above all, to ask questions myself for improvement!
Take care!
Well played Gurthang !
Do you have some kind of report from your matches?
Hi,
I way thinking how we can go thought Enduance, and finally the answer was to come back to a Blue dredge manaless ! Here the list i propose:
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Street Wraith
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Force of Will
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
3 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Golgari Thug
4 Force of Negation
3 Whirlpool Warrior
4 Disrupting Shoal
2 Commandeer
SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 3 Contagion
SB: 4 Archive Trap
SB: 4 Mindbreak Trap
That is a lot of blue. :D Why Whirlpool Warrior over Rider and Drake? I personally think that the 2 mana of Rider for Disrupting Shoal is probably relevant more often, but I could be wrong.
You are also on 11 dredgers with no Once Upon a Time, so switching out a couple of spells (like Commandeer) may be better. Commandeer seems a little too desperate, and it doesn't do anything against Endurance, Containment Priest, Faerie Macabre, Thalia, etc.
There is already a template, established early on in the deck's history (maybe even first?) for a blue-based/Force of Will version of manaless dredge. I don't know if it's worth playing, mostly because it shuts off one of the best avenues g1 with Balustrade Spy/Dread Return/Thassa's Oracle. Once you include that package you don't have room for Forces/Whirlpool Rider. Not only that, but you still don't have an answer to Leyline of the Void. The green-based versions have at least Force of Vigor to fight the common hate (Leyline, Rest in Peace, Grafdigger's Cage, Soul-guide Lantern.)
Sorry, the explanation was not paste with My blue list and i understand your comment :smile:
I know the list proposed is not common, i always try to think about the metagame. It can be surpassed in 2-6 mounths but i’ m based on the list of other deck from tournament result to make assumptions.
Ur delver is the DTB (a good matchup for us) 14% of the top 8 lists from the last 2 months
Bant Control is the new ovni deck, 8% of the last 2 months top 8 and still increase (source mtgtop8)
Death and taxes still present
Number of Leyline of the void in subboard decrease (don’t know exactly why, maybe because of the popularity of endurance.
Whirlpool Warrior is here to counter Endurance with Disrupting Shoal, witch is the main problem 1st game.
I believe the deck is easier to play with ballustrade spy, and Phantasmagorian (one of the best card for this game), but without solution Main Deck it’s really hard against endurance. The planeswalker bounce this creature and we lost .
Commandeer is Like silver bullet :smile: the 2 slots were the last of the list. I wanted blue card to increase the power of free counterspell. And it’s a kind of counterspell, but not exactly. You can make miracle with it: With a brainstorm you dredge 3 Times! , and it’s also a pleasure with sylvan library, jace, careful study, Faithless Looting, stoping a LED….
For SB : leyline of sanctify is not synegic with the game, but it’s a solution against endurance + bojuka bog. And with the deck playing them we can wait 1 turn more.
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Once Upon a Time
4 Bridge from Below
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
3 Balustrade Spy
4 Dread Return
4 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
4 Nether Shadow
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Vine Dryad
4 Street Wraith
4 Phantasmagorian
Sideboard:
4 Force of Vigor
3 Sickening Shoal
1 Ashen Rider
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Serum Powder
Took this to a local. Went 2-2
R1 vs rhett on Yorion DNT (lost 1-2)
Game 1 had t2 Spy combo.
Boarded in Force of Vigors and boarded out spy.
Game 2 dealth with an early grafdigger's cage and lion's sash, but by the time I got up and running again a RiP and a Kaldra sealed it for me. Punted a little bit as he surgicaled my Phantasmagorian and I could have just bounced him but I thought maybe it was best to slow play. Given the hate he had probably wouldn't have mattered, but learned for next time.
Game 3 was a little bit slower but a containment priest came down and I didn't have an answer other than get lucky and draw 2 vine dryads and a gaak. I did not.
1-2 / 0-1.
R2 vs Alex on UR Delver. (won 2-0)
Game 1 I chip away with with Shadow/Ichorid damage and eventually have a big dredge and come back with i think all for Ichys, some narcos and maybe a token or two.
Game 2 is much of the same. Ichorid beats gets me there. Not a whole lot of graveyard interaction here, I think unlicensed hearse was his hate.
3 -2 / 1-1
R3 vs Morgan on URW Mentor (won 2-1)
Game 1 i do the spy thing. It goes quick.
boarded in force of vigors, boarded out spy. Wasn't sure what hate he would bring in and turns out surgical was what it was.
Game 2 I have the worst luck in the history of luck. I keep a sketchy opener of street wraith, Once upon a time, and 5 non-dredgers. I once upon a time, no dredgers but I get a street wraith. I cycle both, no dredgers. I start just discarding shadows and ichorids to try and do something. Both get surgicalled. Eventually he gets the mentor out and has to go targeting his own creatures with removal and then countering it to get the tokens. He beats me down eventually, I don't see a single dredger all game.
put the FoV back and breing spy back in.
Game 3 he has some StP removal for my ichorid but I'm able to get some quick beats in before going for the spy package. IT was a go for it kinda playfor me as i had no therapy for protection and it would have wiped out my graveyard oetherwise (to get the Ichy's in play) He brainstorms in response and doesn't find an answer, so I win.
5-3 / 2-1
Round 4 win and in vs Paul on GB NO elves. (Lose 1-2).
As a repayment for my shit draw in game 2 vs morgan, the shuffle gods give me a dredger and 3 street wraiths in my opener. You can imagine how this goes. Its over quick.
I figure he has leylines and endurance, so i bring in the FoV.
Game 2 he has leyline in the opener (one of onnly 2 he has, so good luck there). I deal with it but he OuaT for and finds an endurance so I try to play around that but this gives him too many turns.
Game 3 is similar - he has his leyline and I have my force, but giving elves 2 bonus turns with no other interaction for me will not go in my favor 10 times out of 10.
Overall, was fun. Made a few mistakes but nothing that would cost me the game. Just wanted to jam something different today. Figured I'd share with everyone else.
6 - 4 / 2-2.
Overall 6th finish of 12. Meta had:
Manaless,
Elves
Red prison
UR delver
Sneak n Show
Yorion DNT
Lands
Eldrazi Post
Karn Pox
Infext
and 2 others I didn't have a chance to see what they had.
Only cast hoogak once and I don't think it mattered. I believe it was forced.