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Originally Posted by
JadeOberg
So first off... Faithless Looting is so insane in this deck. It enables so many busted second turn plays. I think three is the right number, because we do get to cast it twice. But if you are not playing this with welder, you are doing it wrong.
With my testing, I agree that three Faithless Looting is enough. Faithless Looting also helps in finding that Welder in case its not in your opening hand. I suggest that you run more than one Sensei's Divining Top (I currently run two) as Faithless Looting also helps in refreshing SDTs (since the deck runs minimal shuffle effects)
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Lodestone has to be a four of. I have won a lot of games off of two early lodestones just because they never hit their third or fourth land drop in time.
Yes, I also agree with this. Its unfortunate that a lot of lists on TC decks have cut these bad boys to 3. While they do die to Lightning Bolt, they can be good enough of a beating especially when you get them going on turn one (which is not that hard to pull off with this deck)[/quote]
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Blood moon out of the board is just bonkers. I totally could justify running this in the maindeck, but I feel like game one I just want to cheat out a big guy as fast as I can. About half of my matches I end up bringing in blood moon, maybe more than half. That card just steals games.
I have actually never tried this before. It sounds plausable (especially that this deck's weakest matchup is blue-based Tempo that runs little to no basics). It also helps the deck's mana denial cause overall.
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I haven't played against any storm combo, I can imagine it being the toughest matchup for this deck, however, playing this deck I never feel like I am beat until the game is over. This deck topdecks extremely well. A very high percentage is going to be a bomb that can take over the game even if I am slightly behind. Making sure I keep extra land or useless accelerators in my hand so that when I do find a faithless looting, I have one or two useless cards to bin in the graveyard.
Actually, that matchup is a coin flip. Usually whoever starts wins as Storm-based combos can win on turn 1 or 2 (with Duress/Chant back up). If you resolve a Sphere effect early on turn 1 or 2, followed by a threat, you will win that game.
As for this deck topdecking really well, that is still debatable, even with Faithless Looting. Yes Faithless Looting helps but its still at the bottom of the list when it comes to topdecking in Legacy.
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Phyrexian Metamorph is also just insane in this deck. Metamorphing anything in the deck is a solid play. I have even gone first turn Ancient Tomb> Grim Monolith> Metalworker > go Second turn reveal 5 artifacts make 10 mana> cast metal worker and lightning greaves>make 6 mana > mox opal > blightsteel>tap tomb> metamorph blightsteel. I know this is an extreme example, but metamorph does this on turn two or three with wurmcoil and hellkite and golem as often as I draw it. It may be worth going up to two slots.
I am currently running two Metamorphs on my list. They are great after turn 2 as they can copy almost anything relevant in the deck. They "snapcast" enters-the-battlefield effects of your artifacts, they can serve as a pseudo-protection to Welders, they kill opposing Legendary creatures/artifacts or they double whatever threat you have.
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This deck just feels so powerful right now. Anyone else have any input on card selection or fresh ideas? I just wanted to share my experience with the deck, and I am having an absolute blast playing this beast.
The deck is fun but its actually hard to master.
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Originally Posted by
ACME_Myst
Hey guys, whatsup?
So, I'm seriously considering getting back into Legacy after a 4 year break from Magic. Having always loved and often played Stax and it's various derivatives, I feel like it would be a really cool deck to pick up to get back into the game. Truth be told, budget concerns are not the least of my reasons, but having never played with Metalworker and Grim Monolith in this format, I'd like to see how that plays out.
Anyway, not really having a team to seriously playtest with anymore, I'm turning to The Source to get some feedback on the list I'm working on.
Good to have you here as well. Any discussions that will propel this deck into a DTB is always welcome.
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- 22 lands is about 4-6 more than I've seen in most other lists. My reasoning was that
a) In my (limited) experience, (Worker) MUD has a highly volatile manabase. Which is to say, it's super explosive, but equally fragile. Because I don't want to scoop to opposing Wasteland + counter on Metalworker, a more stable manabase seems really good.
Yes, the deck's mana production falters under an active Null Rod/Stony Silence (because of artifact acceleration) and a well-timed Wasteland but I found in my experience that running 18 lands is the way to go. I find that having too much lands can suck as you don't want to topdeck enough lands when you want to resolve a sphere effect or a threat at the same time, you don't want to lose to a Null Rod.
Having 22 lands sounds ideal but in a deck that runs minimal deck manipulation/draw, its hard to avoid unnecessary lands (especially that this deck doesn't run Fetchlands). Arguably, you can still run 22 lands as long as you pair those basic Mountains with the proper Fetchlands. Though in doing so, you add more damage to yourself in addition of what Ancient Tomb already gives you (not to mention that surprise Price of Progress)
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b) I hate forced mulligans because of manascrew. Contrariwise, it appears hard to be flooded in a deck with such high CMC cards.
In contrary, having flooded with no threat also sucks and should be mulliganed. Like what I said, I believe 18 is the right number so far (you also run Crucible)
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c) Half of your lands blow themselves up or get eaten by Welder and/or Forgemaster, and finally..
While you can't control City of Traitor's trigger, you can choose whether of not you want to use your artifact lands as Welder/Forgemaster fodders. Sometimes you'd wish you rather had those artifacts instead of lands.
And on your list, Crucible is there to help with City of Traitor's drawback.
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- .. neither Mox Opal nor Lotus Petal seems to really work for me. Opal is not proper acceleration, as it's virtually impossible to be metalcraft on turn 1 or 2, where it seems most useful. Petal is, obviously, but it's neither a persistent manasource nor really a target for Welder and Forgemaster.
Opal isn't meant to be an acceleration, rather an additional land drop that doesn't blow up City of Traitors, produces red (and blue if needed) mana and a fodder to Welder/Forgemaster or fuel to Metalworker. Being an acceleration is a bonus for Opal (when paired with artifact lands and/or Lotus Petal in the early turns)
Personally, for me, Petals are there to help with turns 1-2, nothing more. A turn 1 Metalworker that is unanswered will win you games 95% of the time. Having Petals under an active Tangle Wire (which I also run) means that you can tap them without tapping relevant pieces such as a threat or permanents that produce more than one mana. Petals can also act as a Welder enabler as casting it of 0 and switching it with something relevant from the yard is never a bad trade off. A Petal in the yard help protect (or recycle) artifacts on the field with an active Welder. An example would be in the early turn (which for the most part you will have zero artifacts in you graveyard), you can use Welder to 'untap' a used Monolith or 'flicker' a Tangle Wire by playing tricks with that sacrificed Petal.
Worse comes to worst, a Petal in the yard helps Welder gain: "Tap, Sacrifice an artifact: add any color of mana to your mana pool"
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- 3 Crucible seems really good, both to stabilize the manabase further and to do nasty trick with Welders and Wastelands.
Personally I don't run them but I think 2 should be enough as they're abilities don't really stack up. Having multiples of them doesn't add up.
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- I'm running 4 Hellkite and have cut Wurmcoil Engine entirely. The reasoning here is that
a) I'm severely lacking in board control, and this should remedy that somewhat.
b) Because I'm trying to win by turning big dudes sideways, evasion seems really good.
c) More board control synergizes better with my Tangle Wires and LD.
d) Minor point, but it's Firebreath acts like a useful manasink.
All points seem plausable but I wouldn't disregard Wurmcoil just like that.
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e) The above points outweigh both the increased synergy between Wurmcoil and Welder/Forgemaster, and the Wurm's lifelink ability.
Actually, Wurmcoil helps that it turns Welder's/Forgemaster's drawback into an advantage. Also, outside of exile effects, its harder to get rid of Wurmcoil (or its leftovers)
And sometimes, Wurmcoil's lifelink ability is relevant as you don't want to die to your own Ancient Tomb (against aggro, it happens).
Ever thought of a 2/2 or 2/3 split?
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- 4 Tangle Wire synergize with the overall LD plan, are insane with an active Welder, and just generally provide Time Walks all around.
Yes. Not going to argue with that. An early threat followed by Tangle Wire will end games with no problem. Though I have cut them down to three to make room for threats.
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- Only 2 bombs/dedicated Forgemaster targets, mostly to keep the amount of dead draws to a minimum. Of the two, Sundering Titan provides LD and a great body, while Mindslaver provides Time Walks at worst, an alternative wincondition at best, and is generally backbreaking against both combo and control.
I run two as well (Sundering Titan and Spine of Ish Sah).
I think STitan is there as a universal target. Its just a beating when you get it on the field with an early active Forgemaster.
As for Mindslaver, I never got it going. Maybe the reason is that whenever I get an active Forgemaster going, I always seem to not have that 4 mana needed for it. At least with Spine, I can blow up things right away, especially those that need to be answered.
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- I would love to find room for Chalice, Phyrexian Metamorph, Grim Poppet, Spine of Ish Sah, Batterskull and tbh also Wurmcoils, but the list feels really tight as is.
I run Chalice of the Void from the Side (since having Welder and Faithless Looting would be anti-synergistic). They usually go in against Tempo/Control (where Welder will get removed or countered right away) and Storm-based Combo (where they can Storm faster than you get Welder active).
I would cut a Crucible and Tangle Wire for two Phyrexian Metamorph. That card is just underrated.
As for Grim Poppet, Most of your threats outclass a lot of weenies in Legacy. Why?
Spine of Ish Sah is more of a preference. So are Batterskull. But honestly, Batterskulls for Wurmcoils aint so bad. The fact that they have/give vigilance means there will be a greater life swing with that lifelink and that is very relevant against any deck that tries to defeat you by having your life to zero.
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- I'm very much opposed to running 2-offs of anything in a deck with as little library manipulation as this, which seems to be in contrast to a lot of other builds I'm seeing. I'm wondering if nobody else has a problem with this?
I have a problem with this. It makes the deck more inconsistent. While its more explosive, it becomes more mulligan dependent.
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- [I'm being ninja'd by JadeOberg as I'm typing] Blood Moon seems really good in a deck like this, but I feel might be better off in a more Stax-like build.
Personally, I think Blood Moon needs more testing. I am also gonna throw Chaos Warp in there as well as cards that need to be tested.
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- Staff of Domination seems really win-more. If you have an active Metalworker and Kuldotha to find the Staff, along with three artifacts in hand, you should be winning anyway. I see no reason to run potentially dead, conditional cards.
I agree. Also, Staff of Domination (with an active Metalworker) will only win you game if you have both of them active on turns 2-3. After that, your hand will not have enough artifacts to fuel Metalworker
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- Blightsteel Colossus also seems really win-more, as he's a bitch to hardcast, the poison doesn't work very well with the deck's main route to victory which is damage dealing, and again, active Kuldotha (+ Greaves) should let you win with less conditional cards.
A lot will argue against that but I am on your side on this one. While Blightsteel Colossus can win you games from nowhere under the right circumstances, outside of Forgemaster or absurb mana, it doesn't have any synergy with the deck (especially when you can't cheat it onto the field with a Welder)
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- Myr Battlesphere hasn't been as insane as I thought he was, but again this is from very limited testing.
I used to run it but due to a tight list, I have eventually cut it.
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- Overall, I feel the deck would improve in both consistency and stability by moving away from utility-oriented combo-esque builds, towards a more tempo-oriented aggro-control style version.
Needs more testing as the combo-feel to it is the reason why you can pull off win from nowhere and the reason why to play. I could be wrong, hence more testing. But how would you turn this into a tempo-oriented deck? Care to explain what you mean by this?
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TL;DR: I'm trying to make this deck slightly less explosive, in return for increased consistency and stability. Thoughts?
Ever tried the Stompy Version? (Maindeck Chalice, no Welder/Faithless Looting). It lacks tricks but it will consistently lock opponents. Also, it compliments the 4 Hellkite build. For the most part, they don't run combos such as Forgemaster-based.
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Originally Posted by
Kellyx
About cruciable/wastelands.This deck is too mana hungry.Most time i just dont dare to use wasteland besides using it as a mana source.Im thinking about switching this pack to 2 darksteel citadel+2 utility lands+2 blood moons.And changing 2 mox diamond to 2xlotus petal.
But for those 2 Utility Lands, I would use Wasteland as they can get rid of relevant lands against us, from Tower of Magistrate to Maze of Ith.
I have extensively tested Mox Diamonds and overall have cut them to Lotus Petal. The additional cost of Diamonds is just to much for a mana-hungry deck that runs under 21 lands.
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Originally Posted by
JadeOberg
I definitely agree about the wasteland/crucible as well and cannot see the value in running them in this deck. Mox Diamond is not as good as Petal as well if you are dropping the land count.
Seems like we are coming to similar conclusions
Ditto.
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Originally Posted by
Undomian
Not really sure how this compares to the Welder version, since I haven't played that in months, but I enjoy playing my base-blue build if only for the ability to play with Brainstorm and Transmute Artifact. I'm no master with the deck, so the numbers could probably use a bit of tweaking.
[spoiler]
Maindeck:
3 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
4 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Transmute Artifact
4 Grim Monolith
2 Lightning Greaves
2 Mox Diamond
3 Mox Opal
1 Staff of Domination
2 Voltaic Key
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
2 Island
4 Seat of the Synod
1 Academy Ruins
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Karn Liberated
3 Brainstorm
1 Inkwell Leviathan
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Ponder
SB: 1 Spine of Ish Sah
SB: 1 Phyrexian Metamorph
SB: 2 All Is Dust
SB: 4 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 3 Trinisphere[/spoiler]
Alright, a couple of questions. I know you are running Brainstorm but do you really think your Mox Diamonds can be supported by 15 lands?
And with only 11 blue sources (5 of which are conditional), how can you pull off the double blue requirement of Transmute Artifact?
I'm not saying its not plausable but I would cut Forgemaster if you want to go the Transmute way. Hell with Brainstorm, you might even abuse Temporal Mastery and take advantage of large swings this deck is capable of doing. I would use Master Transmuter as a means to cheat artifacts onto the field, as well as to provide tricks (ever tried flickering Sundering Titan on and off the field?)