Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
taconaut
Survival of the Fittest is fair right now. If they unbanned it I don't think it would do anything except maybe make another cool Tier 2 deck.
"Utility?"
The reason he wrote it like he did is for the Reach, so that your Visionary can block Marit Lage and Delvers while you bounce it to get card advantage.
The silly part is that Baleful Strix is still more loaded than that. >_>
As far as the fixed DRSes, I think 1 damage per activation is too little. Simply making DRS cost G would do the card a lot of good.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
I've said it before in DRS discussions before, if it was just limited to your graveyard à la Grim Lavamancer it'd be good but safe. Gone would be the two-pronged offense of eating your opponent's Griselbrand or Lingering Souls and getting value; and you'd be resource limited much faster, especially on mana.
Or print Grim Lavamancer saying two cards from any graveyard. I'd be happy with that too.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Zombie
A busted green creature:
Mr. Fantastic Elf - GG
Creature - Elf Mutant
Reach
When Mr. Fantastic enters the battlefield, draw a card
1/1
Make it a 2/1 so it can actually trade with a Delver. Otherwise this is really shitty strix
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Zombie
The silly part is that Baleful Strix is still more loaded than that. >_>
As far as the fixed DRSes, I think 1 damage per activation is too little. Simply making DRS cost G would do the card a lot of good.
Sorry for double post, but I think the utility of exiling spells is fine for only 1 damage. 2 damage meant that 2 Deathrite was a very real clock. I don't think I want everyone to have basically upgraded lavamancer available.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
apple713
My only issue with D&T is that its a creature based deck and their creatures are so much more useful than anything green really has to offer. Green is the color that should be creature based, although I realize that D&T creatures have that little bit of flair that makes them white, it is still odd to me that green doesn't really have a mono green beats that could come anywhere near D&T.
Personally, I hate playing against it because as a dark depths player it is easily my worst match-up. However, I am happy that it is in the format to keep decks in check.
Also, if survival of the fittest's mana cost was GGG instead of 1G, would it be fair? That would decrease its ability to be splashed and it would still hold true as a green card. Green just has not been the same without it.
It's because white gets the best hate creatures while green is the best at big-beater / card-advantage creatures. The latter strategy just doesn't work in Legacy or even Modern really. Way too many broken things are happening for a non-disruptive, fair, creature-based strategy to get any traction.
The bigger offender in this paradigm is the fact that black gets a 5/5 for 1 mana and blue gets a 3/2 flyer for 1 mana and a stupid card in TNN that should have never been printed. Since blue and black get the best aggro creatures it largely invalidates green in all of the blue decks.
I wish they would open more design space for WR and GW to be competitive. If they made some pushed cards in those color that could generate some new decks or at the very least different combinations of splash colors for blue decks.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Megadeus
Sorry for double post, but I think the utility of exiling spells is fine for only 1 damage. 2 damage meant that 2 Deathrite was a very real clock. I don't think I want everyone to have basically upgraded lavamancer available.
The basically upgraded Lavamancer is the point. Make him eg. cost G to cast and only make BG if you want to try to make him off-limits for Grixis?
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Purple Blood
It's because white gets the best hate creatures while green is the best at big-beater / card-advantage creatures. The latter strategy just doesn't work in Legacy or even Modern really. Way too many broken things are happening for a non-disruptive, fair, creature-based strategy to get any traction.
The bigger offender in this paradigm is the fact that black gets a 5/5 for 1 mana and blue gets a 3/2 flyer for 1 mana and a stupid card in TNN that should have never been printed. Since blue and black get the best aggro creatures it largely invalidates green in all of the blue decks.
I wish they would open more design space for WR and GW to be competitive. If they made some pushed cards in those color that could generate some new decks or at the very least different combinations of splash colors for blue decks.
to be fair tho, black doesnt get a 5/5 for 1 mana. Its only 1 mana on like turn 3-5? Thats far less threatening. Whether it cost 1 or 4 tapping out to cast it on turn 3-5 doesnt make much of a difference unless you are holding counterspells.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
apple713
to be fair tho, black doesnt get a 5/5 for 1 mana. Its only 1 mana on like turn 3-5? Thats far less threatening. Whether it cost 1 or 4 tapping out to cast it on turn 3-5 doesnt make much of a difference unless you are holding counterspells.
There's more you can do with your leftover mana than cast counter spells. Huge difference between tapping out for a 5/5 and tapping 1 mana for a 5/5 and following that up with a second play.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Ban Chalice of the Void! It's unfair to blue players everywhere!
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MGB
Ban Chalice of the Void! It's unfair to Burn and Elves and Dredge and Pox players everywhere!
Fixed that for ya'.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ronald Deuce
Fixed that for ya'.
As someone who has been playing Legacy for nearly 10 years and has never registered a deck without 4 Chalice of the Void in the main deck at any Legacy event, I have to say that burn and dredge actually have a higher win-rate vs. me than the entire conglomerate of blue decks does. Elves might be even, and I don't think I've ever seen Pox more than 2-3 times in the past 10 years.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MGB
As someone who has been playing Legacy for nearly 10 years and has never registered a deck without 4 Chalice of the Void in the main deck at any Legacy event, I have to say that burn and dredge actually have a higher win-rate vs. me than the entire conglomerate of blue decks does. Elves might be even, and I don't think I've ever seen Pox more than 2-3 times in the past 10 years.
As someone who has been playing Legacy for nearly six years and has never registered a deck with 4 Chalice of the Void in any format ever, I can say that my anecdotal evidence is better than yours.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Zombie
The basically upgraded Lavamancer is the point. Make him eg. cost G to cast and only make BG if you want to try to make him off-limits for Grixis?
Yeah but why do we need an upgraded Lavamancer? If you want graveyard exiling shock, you should have to play Lavamancer
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Burn has legs on Chalice decks because the mana base hurts.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
This may be a peripheral discussion but still (a beggar can't choose, perhaps a legacy afficionado cannot be too picky). I wanted to add something that I thought might have been mentioned earlier in the discussion, and sure enough it's there in the first post's edit..
Quote:
Originally Posted by
pettdan
I think something like this could help green, non-elves decks become more viable:
Good Times Ranger
Casting cost: G
Card type: Creature - Cleric Wizard
Tap: Exile target land card from a graveyard. Add one mana of any color.
B, Tap: Exile target instant or sorcery card from a graveyard. Each opponent loses 2 life.
G, Tap: Exile target creature card from a graveyard. You gain 2 life.
P/T: 0/1
Flavor text: I'm back.
Edit: Matsu's version below is probably more reasonably balanced. But remember, Deathrite was never really a problem before it got played in non-green decks (grixis specifically), I guess green centered decks need some high power level to even only be relevant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Matsu
Too stronk i have balanced it more ;)
Good Times Ranger
Casting cost: G
Card type: Creature - Cleric Wizard
Tap: Exile target land card from a graveyard. Add G.
B, Tap: Exile target instant or sorcery card from a graveyard. Each opponent loses 1 life.
G, Tap: Exile target creature card from a graveyard. You gain 2 life.
P/T: 0/1
Flavor text: I'm back.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Zombie
As far as the fixed DRSes, I think 1 damage per activation is too little. Simply making DRS cost G would do the card a lot of good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Megadeus
Sorry for double post, but I think the utility of exiling spells is fine for only 1 damage. 2 damage meant that 2 Deathrite was a very real clock. I don't think I want everyone to have basically upgraded lavamancer available.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Zombie
The basically upgraded Lavamancer is the point. Make him eg. cost G to cast and only make BG if you want to try to make him off-limits for Grixis?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Megadeus
Yeah but why do we need an upgraded Lavamancer? If you want graveyard exiling shock, you should have to play Lavamancer
I'll just repeat that as long as Deathrite was not played in Grixis Delver or Grixis Control, most people (not all) didn't have a problem with it. Its powerlevel was very reasonable in Maverick, The Rock, Deadguy Ale, MOST, and even BUG Delver variants [edit: and Elves too, this deck was never demolishing the format]. That last one is rather surprising actually, BUG Delver was not too good but Grixis Delver was. I guess this may have something to do with the interaction between Gitaxian Probe and Young Pyromancer (Cabal Therapy lost favor, iirc, maybe Gurmag should be added here too), and this strong synergy of the deck has been addressed now, too. So, even if Deathrite deals two damage to the opponent's face, we already have very clear evidence on this not being far too strong for Legacy, I'd say. I agree that weakening it this way, letting it deal 1 damage only, would still leave it a very useful creature and thus should be done.
Edit: the point I'm making here is that the effects of Deathrite were fine, as shown by the empirical evidence of how the format turned out which could be easily recognized from the DtB section. It was only the too flexible casting cost, allowing play in Grixis decks, that made it a problem. Probably it would benefit from being a bit weaker, like dealing less damage to the opponent, but even in its super strong form it didn't make most green decks t1. So you could even argue that fair green decks needed this power level to stand a chance, this is the type of creature green needs to be relevant next to the blue shell. It was apparently still too weak to make the difference.
When it comes to Grim Lavamancer, its power lies more in board control than dealing 2 damage to the opponent, and this aspect Deathrite lacks, so I think comparing with Lavamancer is to some extent relevant but not very relevant.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
I mean, the tension in Delver was that classically, green offered you beats, red speed and black better removal and if you played slower, GB had raw CA and big beats. You had to choose two, which is why RUG and BUG had such distinct character. Green was the weakest color in the pile, though, sans DRS' improved ability to play long and big. The dream was always to get both red speed and good black removal. Now with Angler, Pyromancer and TNN, you don't have to choose. Playing Green is shooting yourself in the foot.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Zombie
Green was the weakest color in the pile, though, sans DRS' improved ability to play long and big. The dream was always to get both red speed and good black removal. Now with Angler, Pyromancer and TNN, you don't have to choose. Playing Green is shooting yourself in the foot.
This was certainly true when DRS was legal (Grixis being best Delver deck), but at this point Grixis Delver is just a deck with 4x Delver which is more or less small Grixis “control“ featuring Wasteland, rather than a real Delver deck. Playing Wasteland and Daze in a deck that wants the game to go long (playing around 3x TNN and being unable to reliably open with a threat) is inherently suspect.
Even though small Grixis has enough generically good cards to float around tier 1.5-ish, the comment about playing green in Delver should be revisited. DRS is gone and they just printed Cindervines into an actual Delver deck (8x turn 1 threats, RUG Delver). RUG is still less winning than small Grixis (because it‘s gone longer without a creature upgrade), but they had a new avenue opened in terms of ways to play a true Delver strategy. Green now represents a proactive [count to 20] tool which also counts as something like Pernicious Deed for anything [actual] Delver cared about. If they print a creature to replace Goose or Goyf (only a matter of time since green gets the best rates), there‘s going to be some meaningful innovation possible. As long as DRS is banned, green is going to remain the color of most latent potential rather than liability.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fox
If they ever banned Terminus, they'd have to ban Vial. It's not really acceptable to have DnT making wraths cost 6 [Port/Thalia] +/- Wastelands. Otherwise you'd need an unconditional 3 mana sorc speed wrath, or a 4 mana unconditional instant speed one. As always, ban CB and unban SDT - combo can make miracles stop playing so many white cards, aggro has comprehensively failed to make miracles stop playing Counterbalance.
Ban Vial lol. I can't tell if you're serious or not.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
FLAME PLEASE!
Ah, the smell of napalm in the morning!
The best decks in legacy might not be playing-brainstorm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Huang
Brainstorm decks make up 57.6% of the winner’s metagame, which is by far the lowest I have ever seen it since I started tracking metagame results in 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Huang
Legacy is more balanced than it has ever been, and it’s because the non-Brainstorm decks have access to more broken mana plays than the Brainstorm decks (...)
All in all, Legacy is in the most diverse place it has been since the printing of Delver of Secrets, and possibly ever. I expect we will look back on this time as an exciting era of Legacy where you can really play anything
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
talpa
Chalice of the void is in 18% of decks per mtgtop8.com the prior two months. Curious if it has ever been over 25?