Re: bUrg Reloaded *New and Official Thread*
Believers in bUrg
Here I present some statements of the users why they play bUrg.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
personalbackfire
You would play RUGB over Rug or BUG for access to all 4 colors, to say it simple.
It is my experience that tempo decks really want Bolt to have reach. Granted, I haven't played a ton of games with BUG Delver, but I've always liked having Bolt in the deck as a way to close out games.
The reason you would want BURG over RUG is because of Deathrite Shaman and Decay.
Deathrite Shaman really is just that good. It is good against Rug, it's good against opposing Shamans, it is good against graveyard strategies. He just does a lot of work. In addition, you are playing less 2 drops, which makes holding up one mana situational counters/stifle more easy.
Decay also deals with some problem cards that RUG struggles with, like Counterbalance. In addition, it kills opposing creatures, it is versatile. In a pinch you might be able to float mana or use your Shamans to kill a Bloon Moon.
Decay is a better "flex" slot than RUG has access too.
....
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TheKingslayer
I agree with Personalbackfire. I would like to add...
Honestly, the mana base isn't really that "shaky." It's a blue deck at its core, and every spell costs one (except for abrupt decay.) Every once in a while I find myself being tilted off of mana, but very rarely, and for the most part, being a tempo deck, the opponent is likely putting themselves behind with all of our stifles and wastelands and shamans. As well, Deathrite really is the adhesive that makes the deck possible. He keeps ANT off of threshold, negates past in flames, keeps RUG off of threshold. He's a swiss army knife that allows for more explosive mana in the early game to use for more disruption (our combo matchup is more definitively better than other tempo decks), deploying threats, and cantripping. Near the end of the game, he circumvents copious amounts of blockers to end the game quickly. As well, he allows a lot of tempo can be had even while on the draw when playing a shaman and following it up with a wasteland and stifle, while still actively deploying threats and leaving counter mana up. Deathrite makes it much more difficult for other tempo decks to just run away with the game off of a wasteland.
Bolt allows for tighter play and it can be used to close out games, rather than running 4 abrupt decays (which is clunky and would force us to run more lands instead of spells.) like BUG. Having access to both allows for tighter play and powerful options in dealing with permanents RUG normally can't deal with.
The mana base is initially very difficult to navigate, but becomes much easier with plenty of practice.
Also, having access to sideboard cards like Fire Convenant is powerfully rewarding and it works to shore up those troublesome mid range matchups. Our matchup against Jund is significantly better than RUG's.
p.s. Spell Snare is the tits. It stops nearly every game ending two drop for us at all points in the game. I don't care to know for certain that my opponent has a stone forge in their hand. It is in my best interest to assume it is there, and I'm much more comfortable knowing that I can counter it when they play it.
I used to play RUG. After making the switch, I tried to go back to RUG, but I was disappointed in it's lack of relative explosiveness, utility, and clunkiness in tapping out for tarmogoyf. I returned to BURG with more spell snares and I haven't looked back, nor have I ever been disappointed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tormod
I don't want to rehash what everyone else has already said, because I couldn't say it any better myself.
What i will say is that I wanted to play a deck with the best 1 drops in the format.
Delver =/= not fooling around and we're putting you on a clock
Deathrite is "brainstrom" it fixes your draws, it fixes your mana, its a clock, its defensive, its control it simply is what you need it to be
Brainstorm is Brainstorm' nuff said
Bolt, if you're playing tempo without red you're doing it wrong
Mongoose, so much better than Geist of Saint Traft. Faster, comes out easier.
The deck has a lot of play, the ability to clock with delver AND deathrite in the goyf mirror is huge.
Abrupt decay fixes the problems of counterbalance and chalice of the void presents to RUG
Abrupt decay, Spell Snare and Golgari Charm answers Rest in Peace, which RUG has no answers
It's RUG with better technology, better suited for today's Legacy threats
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mog
Lots of proponents of the deck ; ) I'd just like to add that the combination of Abrupt Decay, Deathrite Shaman, Spell Snare, Lightning Bolt, and ALL of the good sideboard cards really gives the deck a lot of play and many options in any single game. It feels great to have multiple outs to equipment, Tarmogoyf, and all of the other troublesome permanents in the field. Except for Wurmcoil Engine and Sundering Titan. Those cards are a real beating.
I think I like the new sideboard, too. I was confused at cutting Spell Pierce at first but now that I think about it, that card's never been very good for me. Combo decks play around it all day and we have better options against planeswalkers. The only time I miss it is against MUD, but I think my strategy against that deck is to wake up on the winning side of the fluctuation curve each morning. Clique is still really good against Sneak Show and combo but I think that having better cards against Death and Taxes, Patriot, and the midrange decks is worth it. Ashiok is interesting. So far, he just eats Abrupt Decay and gets attacked by Nemesis. I haven't managed to steal a creature yet but there is time ; )
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mog
This just in, Ashiok can steal Grave Titan. I'm sold.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sherko7
That's it, I'm sold. I'm getting Ashiok in. :tongue:
Anyway, for the bUrg VS the world argument:
Deathrite Shaman has warped Legacy into a format wherein there are only 2 types of "decks to beat" right now - those that play Deathrite Shaman (Jund, BUG Shardless, Elves, hell even Maverick plays them now), and those that try to beat Deathrite Shaman (faster combo decks like ANT, Sneak Show, white decks like UWR, DnT that pack RiP). OK so maybe except RUG... RUG's still in there primarily because of its consistency and the amount of followers the deck has accumulated since its conception.
With that, why the hell not pack DRS into RUG? Honestly, the tempo mirror feels almost 1 sided sometimes. We can shrink their Goose, they can't. We can get rid of their Goyf, they can't rid us of ours. I've almost never encountered mana issues with the deck, primarily and ironically because of DRS himself - the very reason to splash black.
Why play bUrg instead of just plain BUG? Simple - Lightning Bolt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
gluedstamps
I've played A LOT with both Nic Fit and RUG and it's more or less impossible for RUG to win unless they draw perfect or the Nic Fit player is bad (something that usually seems to be the case). bUrg has a way better matchup thanks to Fire Covenant. Pre-board the mu is hard but afterwards it's more of less impossible to loose, unless you make horrible play mistakes. Suddenly their bombs can be unarmoured. Sure, I've lost games when I've drawn dead and didn't manage to flip Delver for like five turns, etc but that's rather unlikely..
Haven't played bUrg that much BUT it feels way better then RUG over all. Sure, it's harder to navigate but with the right decisions you've (at least) the possibility to beat any deck, even the hard matchups for RUG.
Re: bUrg Reloaded *New and Official Thread*
Re: bUrg Reloaded *New and Official Thread*
Thread hijacking? For what?
Re: bUrg Reloaded *New and Official Thread*
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
Thread hijacking? For what?
What do you mean? I stated clearly why we need a better primer and have named obvious reasons. It was not my intention to offend the starter of the other thread, but come on, we need a good effort on a primer and not just a list.
Re: bUrg Reloaded *New and Official Thread*
I've been playtesting the deck for quite a while on Cockatrice, and it seems like it has quite an issue against DnT, Maverick and other Stoneblade decks especially pre-board. A resolved Batterskull is more often than not GG. P. Fires also proves to be quite an issue. But other than those scenarios, the deck feels pretty solid. It has good game against most of the decks in the field, especially post-board. Merfolks can sometimes give the deck quite a beating if your Fire Covenant comes in a bit late, Goblins too!
Unfortunately, the deck almost auto-loses to RiP... But whatever, at least we have main deck answers to it. :laugh:
Re: bUrg Reloaded *New and Official Thread*
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sherko7
I've been playtesting the deck for quite a while on Cockatrice, and it seems like it has quite an issue against DnT, Maverick and other Stoneblade decks especially pre-board. A resolved Batterskull is more often than not GG. P. Fires also proves to be quite an issue. But other than those scenarios, the deck feels pretty solid. It has good game against most of the decks in the field, especially post-board. Merfolks can sometimes give the deck quite a beating if your Fire Covenant comes in a bit late, Goblins too!
Unfortunately, the deck almost auto-loses to RiP... But whatever, at least we have main deck answers to it. :laugh:
Have you tried my two Goyf version? I did not find DNT to be a hard matchup. With Grudge, Fire Covenant, Loam and Dread of Night from the board, the matchup is clearly winnable.
Esper Blade is a good matchup. Our Spell Snare/Decay/Stifle package combined with Mongoose is always a game winner.
After boarding Maverick is not losable, please try my boarding advice and see how it goes.
The Punishing Fire weakness is compensated with the inclusion of the second Goyf. Now half of our creatures are Pfire proof. Jund is a good matchup.
You can PM me, if you need some basic playing advice as I think that with some play style improvents you will see that the mentioned matchups are good ones.
Side Note: RUG Delver has the same problems versus RIP. yet it continues to be the most successful deck. We have Decay and 3 Spell Snares, so we lose far less times versus RIP than RUG Delver.
Re: bUrg Reloaded *New and Official Thread*
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Sasan
After boarding Maverick is not losable, please try my boarding advice and see how it goes.
As a bUrg and Maverick Player and after hundreds of games on both sides I disagree fiercely!
Away from that, n1 primer!
Re: bUrg Reloaded *New and Official Thread*
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lennard
As a bUrg and Maverick Player and after hundreds of games on both sides I disagree fiercely!
Away from that, n1 primer!
Thanks :)
Ok it was a bit exaggerated but let me make clear that the maverick matchup is not bad. That is perhaps due to the fact that I know many many Maverick players that cannot play the deck. Against a skilled Maverick pilot it should be an interesting match, around 50-50. But bUrg has clearly a better matchup versus Maverick than RUG Delver.
BTW, I asked the mods if we can have this thread in the established section.
Re: bUrg Reloaded *New and Official Thread*
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Sasan
Have you tried my two Goyf version? I did not find DNT to be a hard matchup. With Grudge, Fire Covenant, Loam and Dread of Night from the board, the matchup is clearly winnable.
Esper Blade is a good matchup. Our Spell Snare/Decay/Stifle package combined with Mongoose is always a game winner.
After boarding Maverick is not losable, please try my boarding advice and see how it goes.
The Punishing Fire weakness is compensated with the inclusion of the second Goyf. Now half of our creatures are Pfire proof. Jund is a good matchup.
You can PM me, if you need some basic playing advice as I think that with some play style improvents you will see that the mentioned matchups are good ones.
Side Note: RUG Delver has the same problems versus RIP. yet it continues to be the most successful deck. We have Decay and 3 Spell Snares, so we lose far less times versus RIP than RUG Delver.
Esperblade is a lot easier than Deathblade. There's just too much bombs that need answers against Deathblade.
I have not tried the 2 Goyf list, as I am planning to build it on paper (just need the Trops, Seas and Stifles now) but I am still contemplating on cashing in on Goyfs. I'm using 1 Clique as my 12th creature at the moment.
Also, what do you think of playing Golgari Charm as a one-off in the SB instead of Dread of Night? Golgari Charm seems a bit more flexible and kills nothing from our side other than unflipped Delvers and tamed Geese.
Do PM me for some basic playing advice. :laugh:
Re: bUrg Reloaded *New and Official Thread*
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sherko7
Esperblade is a lot easier than Deathblade. There's just too much bombs that need answers against Deathblade.
I have not tried the 2 Goyf list, as I am planning to build it on paper (just need the Trops, Seas and Stifles now) but I am still contemplating on cashing in on Goyfs. I'm using 1 Clique as my 12th creature at the moment.
Also, what do you think of playing Golgari Charm as a one-off in the SB instead of Dread of Night? Golgari Charm seems a bit more flexible and kills nothing from our side other than unflipped Delvers and tamed Geese.
Do PM me for some basic playing advice. :laugh:
Golgari Charm is a card that can be interesting if Theros with its enchantments has real good ones. Fire Covenant is strictly better for mass removal, the regenerate and enchantment part is not needed for now. Dread of Night is also better versus DNT than Golgari Charm as Dread is a permanent and therefore has a staying effect.
Re: bUrg Reloaded *New and Official Thread*
Why do you even side in Fire Covenant against Storm ?
And no, RUG Delver isn't the most sucessful at the moment, it's BUG and that's why decks like Painter, which destroy BUG are performing well atm.
Imho (without testing) you should have the same issues against UW Miracles than RUG.
Re: bUrg Reloaded *New and Official Thread*
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DreAmiN
Why do you even side in Fire Covenant against Storm ?
And no, RUG Delver isn't the most sucessful at the moment, it's BUG and that's why decks like Painter, which destroy BUG are performing well atm.
Imho (without testing) you should have the same issues against UW Miracles than RUG.
Sometimes we can eliminate his goblin tokens if he goes for the empty the warrens path. Three Mana are no problem with Shaman if you are on the play. There are times where the opponent can only cast 10-12 Tokens so I happily pay 12 Life and win the game.
You are wrong concerning UW Miracles my friend: Decay crushes Counterbalance. We alsso have 3 Spell Snares Main Deck. I see no reason that we lose to UW Miracles.
I think the RUG Delver players and TC Decks would insist on your statement that RUG is not the most scucessful deck - according to the numbers RUG certainly has always been and will perhaps always be a good choice for a open meta with nearly even matchups. bUrg is Canadian on acid, so yeah I really love the deck :).
Re: bUrg Reloaded *New and Official Thread*
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Sasan
Golgari Charm is a card that can be interesting if Theros with its enchantments has real good ones. Fire Covenant is strictly better for mass removal, the regenerate and enchantment part is not needed for now. Dread of Night is also better versus DNT than Golgari Charm as Dread is a permanent and therefore has a staying effect.
I agree that Dread of Night is (obviously) better versus DNT and Maverick, but Golgari Charm is definitely more flexible. And in a deck that already has Fire Covenant, I'm thinking Golgari Charm should fit the board better. :laugh:
Re: bUrg Reloaded *New and Official Thread*
I can see where you are coming from. It is the old flexible card versus more post-board-impact card debate. If I would run dedicated DNT/Maverick hate, then Dread of Night would be the right call. We have already a flexible main deck and sideboard. I believe Golgari Charm is not worth cutting Compost. He does not fit in the only two flex slots of the whole deck. But again, your rationate seems not bad ;-)
Re: bUrg Reloaded *New and Official Thread*
Your sideboarding is screwed up, e.g. leaving in Abrupt Decays and siding out creatures against some of the combo matchups. Fix this at some point. Otherwise, great primer.
Re: bUrg Reloaded *New and Official Thread*
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wcm8
Your sideboarding is screwed up, e.g. leaving in Abrupt Decays and siding out creatures against some of the combo matchups. Fix this at some point. Otherwise, great primer.
Thanks :-)
Concerning the boarding versus combo:
That is due to the fact that more and more combo decks play defense grids or xantid swarms.
Therefore Decay is occasionally needed. But if you do not expect that kind of hate, you can board decays out and leave some creatures in. You must read the opponent. The sideboard guide should also be comprehensive for the starter so that I did not write much about grids and xantid.
I have no problem going down to 9 creatures versus combo.
Re: bUrg Reloaded *New and Official Thread*
Also, I have to disagree with the inclusion of Taiga after having tested it for a while. I feel like this is really better as the 3rd Tropical Island. You *always* want a Blue source in order to fuel your disruption and cantrips, and Tropical happens to be the one that can cast all of your creatures. Daze is enough to enable efficient Brainstorms, and I think the Taiga often ends up being more of a hinderance than a help. Alternatively, you can just run the 8th fetch, but I do think you want at least 7 Duals.
Re: bUrg Reloaded *New and Official Thread*
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wcm8
Also, I have to disagree with the inclusion of Taiga after having tested it for a while. I feel like this is really better as the 3rd Tropical Island. You *always* want a Blue source in order to fuel your disruption and cantrips, and Tropical happens to be the one that can cast all of your creatures. Daze is enough to enable efficient Brainstorms, and I think the Taiga often ends up being more of a hinderance than a help. Alternatively, you can just run the 8th fetch, but I do think you want at least 7 Duals.
We have tested and played the deck thousands of thousands of
times and there is no way a third
tropical is good. Taiga is superior. We need the ability to operate with two lands. If we rely on casting all of our spells with three lands, then our deck becomes a slow, always screwed, not flexible tempo deck. Taiga is a must.But I understand your opinion and the discussion is welcomed.
Re: bUrg Reloaded *New and Official Thread*
Why would you board out Daze against the mirror/RUG matchups? I feel it is invaluable in holding lands away from wastelands until you need them.
Also, I stand by the belief that 8 Fetchlands is the best number of fetches, and that one volcanic should be removed to fit in a Badlands.