Re: [PRIMER] GW/x Maverick
So happy to see this thread finally...I felt bad posting lists into the Death and Taxes thread. I've recently sold off most of my blue duals to economize down to one legacy deck I've picked this one. Even though it's not the 'winningest' I really enjoy playing it.
Thank-you for all your work on the Primer. I'm sure over time we'll fill it out. This feels like a deck that can only get better and better and better.
I've made my choice and chosen this deck but it is one of the 'fair' legacy decks. It doesn't do anything totally crazy and it more or less interacts on the normal planes of Magic. How do players of this deck justify playing it over more powerful decks? My reasons are personal and also because in Legacy even a scrub can steal a win now and then...
Re: [PRIMER] GW/x Maverick
In my opinion Mother of Runes with Scryb Ranger isnīt that fair. I tested a similar list, but i came to the conclusion that blue isnīt necessary. You lose only Rafiq and Rox War Monk but wins a more stable mana base (more Basics / Horizon Canopy) and I use the space for more cards of the Core (like Mother and Pridemage). At the moment Iīm testing Mirran Crusader Maindeck and oneoff Thrun, the Last Troll.
Against Goblins and other Crowds Dueling Grounds seems to be a very fine choice. Iīm interested what do you think about other ideas like Cold-Eyed Selkie or Sejiri Steppe.
And at last, do you think one Goyf is really enough?
Re: [PRIMER] GW/x Maverick
You should include in this primer the link to the forums where this deck is actually real and an important contender of the metagame. I'm not saying it's not good but I'm just saying not enough americans play it.
Zeta bomb (from the italian forum, quite possibly the best version) http://www.tipo1.it/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22867
And the french forum http://www.legacy-france.org/Maverick-G-W-t5357.html
If you are able to understand those languages those threads are gonna be a good read for you. (If you'd like help on reformating the deck variations I can help, just lmk through pm!)
In the matchup analysis section, put BUG landstill - it's just up there with storm as bad matchups, if not worse... UWx landstill is easier.
Other than that nice primer, thanks!
Re: [PRIMER] GW/x Maverick
@Psydonome
About my list:
Single Tropical is worth, Rafiq is MVP in every races also Rhox War Monk - this card basically wins some matchups, i also tested Thrun and Crusader and they was so so - 4 mana slot needs to be bomb troll isn't - its slow and dies to edicts or just combat dmg - regeneration is costy, game doesn't goes to 6 land drops mostly - unless your winning or losing, Crusader looks nice but it dies to quick vs most removal in legacy STP/bolts and P/T isn't good for 3 mana.
About Crowd decks Dueling Grounds is very good - mostly goblins which MU is quite good. If your meta is infected by Goblins play it its best card specially vs R/b version which can't handle enchantments.
Cold-Eyed Selkie is very good but to slow this deck is middle-aggro which means u always want to put some big fattie for 3 mana. This dude isn't so good - it works only vs control meta which also have a lot of removal - so it doesn't matter - swinging for 1 (mostly other creatures died before) even with drawing card isnt revelant as swinging for 8-10 from KotR which brings you victory. Vs Merfolks its overkill we have good MU without it.
Sejri Steppe have the same problem - KotR mostly swings or just fetching more lands it will be killed while attacking or just after cast so not worth destabilize mana base with tapland - u will lose more games cause of it.
Goyf is just a 2 mana Fattie u can't support it size, as I metion before its worth only vs control where single creature need to be a tread with fast clock. Its not fit to your game plan - you have 4 hierarchs, 1 BoP, 4 Zenith's this mean 9 first turn mana drops. You always want to cast something for 3 mana or that single goyf from zenith. Nothing more. Then KotR/Equip/tricks is more worth. Summing if your meta is *****-hold oriented or burn oriented play more Goyfs/Rhox War Monk (best one vs burn).
@Edit Adding links to Italian and French threads - THX :)
I add BUG Landstill to MU and tips about it.
Last word about Gaea's Cradle - its powerful but after months of testing its win more card. It can ramp you for one-two mana more but vs control MU like landstill its dead card. I also avoid NO package because it only works in good MU, and its awful in bad once. I think avoiding dead cards is best way to make stable deck. Gaddock Teeg is exception which is only answer to autolose vs storm G1. I was playing last tournament vs Z-Bomb with NO package and ... he loses because of it - drawing progenitus on hand is a nightmare without brainstorms. Fauna Shaman resolve this problem but it's just to slow to be effective. At the end few words about Dauntless Escort - its good only with NO package, but mostly its just a 3 mana 3/3 dude which dies normally. Its not good answer against pernicous deed - mostly its connected with point removal so it can be trap for use thinking that board is safe - EOT point removal vs it and you're doomed - better are Chokes or Loames connected with single fattie on table.
Re: [PRIMER] GW/x Maverick
Any consideration for Mirran Crusader? With Equipment... he's very powerful.
Re: [PRIMER] GW/x Maverick
Great primer, I think there should be a Sub forums for such just like in mtgsalvation, since discussing different decks of a certain strategy but different card choices and color can be quite confusing in a single thread.
^ I have to agree that Mirran Crusader is crazy strong, works even better with equipments and the swords since you would get double the rewards plus additional protection.
Re: [PRIMER] GW/x Maverick
Crusader is very good specially vs Team America/BUG control, but its very weak vs Zoo/Goblins/Sligh meta - so its rather free slot depends on meta.
Re: [PRIMER] GW/x Maverick
There is another forum talking about the deck. Itīs an spanish forum:
http://www.factoriademishra.com/phpB...php?f=7&t=2398
If you are able to understand spanish, you can learn a lot about the deck.
I have played this deck for a long time, with good results. Here are my thoughts:
- I dont like NO versions. Prog is a great finisher, but do the deck more random. I think itīs not needed
- I prefer birds of paradise over noble hierarch, because swords-equipments. In mirror games, birds >> noble
- I prefer the old vial-wayfarer version. I think itīs more stable. And I have tried all versions (with black, with NO, with zenith). Actually I am playing this version (well, i have always played this build). I splitted the final on a 171 players tournament, winning all games (at the end, it was 18-0).
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...3&iddeck=41730
-The deck has few bad MU: inmho, only combo (storm (hardest), high tide, enchantress, burn (easier)) and faster builds of zoo. Merfolk is aprox 80-20. Jace control is not so hard with vial and wayfarer. I think its favourable
Re: [PRIMER] GW/x Maverick
Nice list, I don't like Sylvan Library with Vial (dis-synergy), Zenith build gives you answer to faster Zoo - Rhox War Monk, also Burn MU isn't so hard with it - u can also bring tutorable Gaddock Teeg which can steal first game un-prepared Storm player - tip here - fetch Tropical Island as normal Bant.
Re: [PRIMER] GW/x Maverick
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fatal
Nice list, I don't like Sylvan Library with Vial (dis-synergy), Zenith build gives you answer to faster Zoo - Rhox War Monk, also Burn MU isn't so hard with it - u can also bring tutorable Gaddock Teeg which can steal first game un-prepared Storm player - tip here - fetch Tropical Island as normal Bant.
How is card filtering (Library) dis-synergistic with AEther Vial? You spend your first turn cast Vial, then your 2nd turn casting Library allowing you to dig/filter out the creatures you need/Vial you don't. How is this unlike Vial/Standstill from the Merfolk from days of old?
Re: [PRIMER] GW/x Maverick
I've used to play this quite a lot on modo a month or so back, when I had time to do so. Even though I did some random scooping here and there (sealed pools, porn or random movies in general don't go so well with actually playing mtg) I managed to win about 75% (a quick count got me to 40-9) of my matches in dailies.
The deck was really good, and my build was a little different than what most people seem to use.
I arrived at a GSZ version (no terravore, that's just bad) with 2-3 mirran crusaders as beatsticks that don't get wrecked by random GY hate, as I felt very uncomfortable playing gw beats and having people bring in gy hate against me - and it being the correct call.
Here is one decklist, if someone wants to try out a version that beats face a little better. (less cute tricks)
http://www.mtgstats.com/Deck.aspx?DeckID=249004
The sylvan library was pretty terrible, as there was not very often a good time to play it, and it could be pretty much anything. The sb is a mess, as I just wanted to try out all the cool cards I could think of.
Re: [PRIMER] GW/x Maverick
I know those without loyal retainers will not like this list but I'm throwing it out there because it is pretty good:
4 STP
4 Vial
4 GSZ
2 Noble
4 Mom
4 Goyf
4 Fauna
3 Pridemage
1 Gaddock
2 Sylvan
4 KOTR
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Iona
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland
3 Canopy
3 Savanna
1 Plains
1 Forest
4 Heath
2 Misty
2 Strand
SB:
1 Revoker
1 Null Rod
1 Cannonist
4 Enlightened Tutor
1 Oring
1 Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Choke
1 Jitte
3 Nature's Claim (This card is so damn good, it's really underplayed)
This is probably the only build of WG that has a good chance against Combo. MD I have 9 ways (4 GSZ, 4 Fauna, 1 Teeq) of getting a bear out by T3. Post board I get + 7 (4 Tutor, 1 Revoker, 1 Null Rod, 1 Cannonist) giving me a total of 16 outs to combo. Other than combo busting, there are some other reasons for playing the Fauna-Iona-Retainers package:
1. Synergy with Aether Vial, Fauna and loyal retainers can both be powered out by vial, something that NO + Equipment are not synergistic with.Vial is broken, playing broken things is good.
2. Iona stops broken things cold, Like opposing natural orders, Loam shenanigans, enchantress, combo and just all around shafts people. You will be surprised how easy it is to get it out T4.
3. Fauna shaman gives amazing consistency to the deck, getting you what you need when you need it.
4. Vulnerability of NO/Equipment plan. NO is vulnerable to counterspells. You can invest so much resources into casting NO just to have it pierced/dazed/FOWed. That sucks. Equipment is weak to removal. You can spend so much mana to stoneforge for equipment, cast equipment, and equip, only to be blown out by a pridemage/stp. Equipment also does nothing against combo.
5. Robustness of Vial-Fauna-Iona-Retainers. Vial is a must answer @ 1-mana. Baiting a Force for 1 mana compared to NO (4 mana + 1 dude) is much more efficient. Fauna is a must answer for 2 mana, instead of playing stoneforge, casting equip and equipping (6 mana spent) only to be blown out by removal, Fauna just straight up trades with removal.
Cheers!
Re: [PRIMER] GW/x Maverick
Every time I tried Fauna Shaman it was turn to slow. Hate on turn 3 is definitely to slow to all storm combo. GSZ brings hate on turn 2 - and still to slow, also in topdeck mode drawing Fauna Shaman isn't great. I tested only 2 Faunas so maybe in multiple they're better - testing needed.
Vial-Sylvan Library - Vial works on upkeep - Sylvan works in draw step, after fetch u have to guess what's comes, also double sylvan/vial is awful - power of this deck is - no dead cards even noble hierarch gives +1/0 which can help.
Every FoW opponents casted is profit for us in CA - mostly all decks side them out for more removal.
Retrainers - Iona looks nice but nowadays KotR and Karakas is so popular so its not always good.
Vial + GSZ is awful in one deck - GSZ works good only with first turn mana drop - without it its timewalk for opponent.
Missing one of the best cards - Elspeth, Knight-Errant its amazing vs all control decks, aggro almost in all MU (maybe not vs combo ;) ) free dude, many loyalty, flying - that's all what u need in turn 3-4 and later.
Re: [PRIMER] GW/x Maverick
Agreed preboard it's rough against quick storm. However this can beat slower combo like show and tell, NO and spiral tide (especially postboard). I'm not bashing on your deck or anything. Both decks have pros and cons. You should give my list a try. Fauna is a 4 or 0 kind of card, like aether vial. You need to see it early to be good. The thing about legacy is speed. My list is very very quick and once iona lands, CA is no longer an issue.
As for the kotr karakas argument, fauna is not limited to just fetching Iona retainers. You just go for more kotrs and kick their ass. Gsz and vial don't combo, sure. But the deck has 25 creatures! You can just drop creatures and just cast gsz? Sure sylvan and vial don't combo but I just leave vial @ 2 since most of the deck centers around 2 drops. Sylvan is just there for gas. Vial is a broken card. Aggro decks should run it. I rather build an aggro deck around vial rather than any other card. There is a reason why vial decks make up almost half the field in most tournaments.
Re: [PRIMER] GW/x Maverick
Agreed preboard it's rough against quick storm. However this can beat slower combo like show and tell, NO and spiral tide (especially postboard). I'm not bashing on your deck or anything. Both decks have pros and cons. You should give my list a try. Fauna is a 4 or 0 kind of card, like aether vial. You need to see it early to be good. The thing about legacy is speed. My list is very very quick and once iona lands, CA is no longer an issue.
As for the kotr karakas argument, fauna is not limited to just fetching Iona retainers. You just go for more kotrs and kick their ass. Gsz and vial don't combo, sure. But the deck has 25 creatures! You can just drop creatures and just cast gsz? Sure sylvan and vial don't combo but I just leave vial @ 2 since most of the deck centers around 2 drops. Sylvan is just there for gas. Vial is a broken card. Aggro decks should run it. I rather build an aggro deck around vial rather than any other card. There is a reason why vial decks make up almost half the field in most tournaments.
Legacy revolves around doing unfair things. By itself, equips and elspeth are too "fair". I've lost games to goblins and merfolk even though I stick equips, elspeth or NO. Simply because they are too fair. Iona is Just broken especially on t4. I highly advise not dismissing Iona retainers. It's very very solid.
Re: [PRIMER] GW/x Maverick
Ok i give her a try, but I'm sceptic about this plan, Reanimator puts Iona faster, and can protect her against random things, we can't. Also list miss equip package with is very soild vs gobs - jitte/SofI is nuts, can see also eternal witness which would be very nice here. Goyfs here are vs other goyfs (we can't support them for more than 2/3 -3/4) or just coudn't find better 2 mana dude - just asking looking for room for GSZ toolbox which is very soild.
Adding that this construction made next tops and it's actually leader in Tier1 decks from thecouncil.es database.
Re: [PRIMER] GW/x Maverick
I think it's critical to now think about this card, recently spoiled:
Mental Mishap {pU} - Instant
"Counter target spell with converted mana cost of one."
Patrick Chapin has said and I fully agree that this card will change Legacy as we know it. I think Maverick benefits from this spell incredibly well. Not just by playing it but by it being played in general. When people are losing 2 life on their first turn, plus fetches, plus Force, plus Thoughseizes (in the Team America case) it speeds up our clock and puts more aggressive strategies on top in terms of deck building.
I think this card necessitates a shift to more aggressive builds that can clock someone really fast. This card completely hoses Aethervial, which in my opinion is not superior to Noble Hierarch/GSZ plan that just tries to get the mana advantage.
I feel like we have to run this card or be left in the dust. With it we gain 'Force of Will' like powers, countering: Nobles, Thoughseize, Vials, Tops, Mother, GrimLavamancer, Lackey and a ton of other cards I can't even think of at the moment. Not to mention that we will need to be countering Mental Mishap itself.
As people adopt this card the need for CA will become more important. So my snap analysis right now is that any 'value engine' like Elspeth will help both in pushing the aggro AND providing a source of board advantage without spending cards.
Another thought I've had is to include Inkmoth Nexus over Wasteland. Pretty radical I know but with Exalted, possibly equipment and Elspeth you've got a pretty tight 2 turn clock against most decks. Decks only run 4 Wastelands and if you run as many non-basics as this deck does you already accept loosing lands to Wastes.
And I gotta admit that Sword of Feast and Famine is too good not to really try. In conjunction with Inkmoth Nexus or Elspeth to help with the 'connection' the mana advantage is back-breaking. With GSZ since you can fully take advantage of all the extra mana.
Food for thought.
Re: [PRIMER] GW/x Maverick
Even if you do land a "fast" Iona with a Retainer... what then? I say "fast" because Shaman are not fast at all. With Survival, you could really blast them out there, but with Fauna Shaman... it is much slower. I have Retainers so that is not the issue, but that seems like a pretty poor play. You're basically wasting 6 slots in a pretty tight deck already. GSZ and better creatures just sounds like a better plan.
Re: [PRIMER] GW/x Maverick
@Patrick has right. This card will change the meta, or rather force to adapt. GSZ is big winner here since we can dodge every mana cost like playing vs CB.
As i was thinking what to cut to put 3-4 MM in decks basically it will be:
-1 BoP/Hierarch to avoid other MM discadvantage
-1 Qasali Pridemage - very dependent on meta if its enchantment/arfitact heavy i would cut rather anything else like SoLS to side
-1 Scryb Ranger (so single on under GSZ) since its utility we mostly want it no more than one on table
-1 Rhox War Monk/Gaddock Teeg - depends on meta if its agressive Gaddock out, if its Combo Rhox War Monk
Also thinkinb about one KotR - yeap since we have answer to opponent StP/PtE it isn't so important to keep so much of them.
But this looks only good on paper as long as testing provides real answers we have to wait.
About Inkmoth Nexus - its terrible idea wasteland is a tempo card - it slow down opponent and kills important lands like Glacial Chasm/Maze of Ith etc this man land doesn't fit to deck i tested much better lands in singleton like Nantuko Monastery. This deck need a lot of Green sources with wastelands, maze of ith we sometimes have problem with starting mana adding additional colorless source it will be very hard to stabilize mana base.
Last word about SoF&F its good tempo card, but SoLS/SoFI/Jitte are just much better. Using man lands with infect doesn't fit to this deck - I propose trying it just in poison affnity - its good there not here.