Re: [Discussion] TES vs. IGGy Pop - Which deck is stronger?
Right now (as in, TES still hasn't done much yet whereas Ill-Gotten Gains has several high-quality finishes in a variety of places (including a single T16 at a Grand Prix and a handful of strong finishes elsewhere)), Ill-Gotten Gains has to be the favorite.
In what testing I've done with or against the deck, Ill-Gotten Gains is pretty damn able to get out of most situations. I've Maged it, I've Crypted it, I've certainly had it empty handed on turn 3 - but unless you follow that up with a serious clock then you'd better hold onto your seats. You don't absolutely have to win every game on turn 3 with either deck - and both decks are pretty capable of playing as fast as the situation requires.
But until TES puts up serious results, I probably would take it under less metagame consideration than I would Ill-Gotten Gains.
Re: [Discussion] TES vs. IGGy Pop - Which deck is stronger?
Okay people, I'm just going to get to it so forgive me if i misspell something or forget to capitolize a word, I just want to say this:
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Here it is. Quote me if you want. TES is strictly superior to IGGy Pop. I see no reason to play IGGy over TES in any metagame. I'm looking for a solid reason why that statement is incorrect.
Allright I quoted you. and i tend to disagree because personally, I think they are damned close to even. TES wins on turns 1-3 when IGGY-POP wins 2-4. we all can pretty much agree on this. Another point we can all (Probably) agree on is that IGGY-POP has a better match vs. decks with insane amounts of disruption like B/w confidant. IGGY-POP also has (correct me if i'm wrong) more room for meta cards like leyline and chant.
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If you want to parallel tutors, I would not consider Mystical in that parallel, because it cannot (on it's own) put a card in your hand. While it is excellent as an endstep play or during your upkeep, it costs you a draw step to utilize it, something that none of TES's tutors do. As a comparison to Intuition, both Int. and BWish have drawbacks, although they are slight, but Burning Wish's flexibility wins out in my opinion. Note that any spell you would want to tutor for in the MD can be wished for in the board, with the exception of a mana source, although with 4 additional ritual effects and 4 Chrome Moxen, this is a relatively weak play anyway. You'll never need to go through the IGG loop more than once, as your gameplan doesn't revolve around the IGG loop to begin with. While the BWish->IGG play leaves you without a tutor in the yard, very rarely has that scenario come up. Additionally, if you can go Bwish->IGG, you can go BWish->EtW, which is a stronger play vs. your worst matchups anyway, and to have 6 mana means you've already played at least 1-2 ritual effects for storm. As for DReturns, every one of your lands save 1 produces U, as do Lotus Petal and potentially Chrome Mox. UU is very rarely a problem.
When comparing tutors please try to keep in mind that they have different roles in each deck. For instance, Burning Wish in IGGY-POP is probably going to weaken the mana base, and waste SB space where you could have run instant speed bounce and extra protection like Defense Grid.
Similarily Intuition in TES would make it rely on the yard more and it would be a bad version of IGGY-POP.
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Originally Posted by bane_of_the_living
Once you hit the loop you win.
Ya know, because nobody plays blue or any kind of control in this format. If this were actually true, I would drop all other decks and just play Iggy. It's such a shame that's not the case.
True. but the same goes for TES. Example: Fow Xantid Swarm, then Daze/Counterspell a tutor or chant in responce to sacing LEDs
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Example 1, they laugh at Crypt and win anyway (or EtW for 6 and win in 2 turns)
Example 2, they laugh at Mage and win anyway (or EtW for 6 and win in 2 turns)
Reading the the examples you posted ( I didn't copy them due to length) your right. IGGYPOP loses to yard hate in the worst way. But TES loses to discard in the bad way as well. My meta is full of thresh(which if i'm not mistaken, is bad for both decks) and B/w confidant(worse for you). So what I'm saying is that the decks both have their weakneses: IGGY is a turn slower and loses to crypt more, but is more adaptable to your meta. TES is faster, but loses to the likes of B/w confidant, cards like Abeyance in response to D.returns, and isn't as adaptable to the meta.
Also, (somebody please test this for me) when two equally skilled players play IGGY-POP(U/B/w) vs. TES i belive it's a 50/50 match.
It's one thing if you make mistakes, but it's a whole different game when you actively say in the post you're going to correct it and then don't. - Di
Re: [Discussion] TES vs. IGGy Pop - Which deck is stronger?
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Iggy Pop is much more reliant in a field full of black disruption decks. I know most of the arguement is focused on Meddling Mage and Crypt, those are strong cards against Iggy, we know that. The fact that theyre weak weapons against TES is true but it doesnt completly steal the show for me. Cards like Duress and Hymn hurt TES alot more than Iggy. Ive seen TES blow down to 3-4 cards an struggle a pathetic EtW alot now. Iggy can just Mystical Tutor for Ill Gotten Gains and win.
Not that I really have much to add in this whole thing, but I figure I'd point out that at the last large tournament (GAGG), I saw TES running over black disruption decks. Deadguy, Pox, etc. They were disrupting them a little early, but couldn't compete with the raw power of the deck's draws.
You either highly overestimate the black deck in that matchup or seriously underestimate TES's ability to fight disruption. Pick one.
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Right now (as in, TES still hasn't done much yet whereas Ill-Gotten Gains has several high-quality finishes in a variety of places (including a single T16 at a Grand Prix and a handful of strong finishes elsewhere)), Ill-Gotten Gains has to be the favorite.
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But until TES puts up serious results, I probably would take it under less metagame consideration than I would Ill-Gotten Gains.
IGGY Pop has also been in the metagame for over a year longer than this deck, so put that into consideration as well. If TES was around back then, it is possible ( I dare say probable) that you would think otherwise. Since it's release, there has only been a single large event in the Northeast (not counting those Meandeck Opens with poor turnouts) and the deck put two players in the top16. Not a top8, but it showed the deck is a force. It's also shown a lot of progress in the tournaments over in Europe, including a large win. On the other hand, Iggy Pop has for the most part fallen off the radar. With the exception of that win by the creator of the deck, there really hasn't been much of a showing for it in recent months (and don't count that 9-man Smmenen showing).
Re: [Discussion] TES vs. IGGy Pop - Which deck is stronger?
Black disruption does NOT kill TES.
I playtested against Deadguy a while back, he had the combo-crippling draw of Ritual into Duress, Hymn. Next turn, I Tendrils him for 24.
Given the versatility of cards in TES, it gives the deck a lot more options, but also exposes it to inconsistency (4 Tutor hands, for example). Mulligans by TES are less crippling though, because even a 5-card hand could be strong enough to win.
The only things I see that Iggy Pop does better is mana stability and a clear goal to winning. The first one doesn't really matter when all TES needs theoretically is 1 land, and the second one isn't really a big one becuase having more ways to win than chaining IGG's into Tendrils is sometimes a boon.
It's just that TES takes so much more THINKING to play so less people are picking it up.
Re: [Discussion] TES vs. IGGy Pop - Which deck is stronger?
I've played both decks extensively and the argument that TES only needs 1 land to win is kinda silly. Iggy Pop can do it on 1 land just as easily. Common examples are:
land, dark rit/lotus petal, led, led, infernal tutor
land, dark rit, cabal rit/dark rit/lotus petal, infernal tutor, infernal tutor, led
In versions modified to be less graveyard reliant, you can even do silly stuff like this:
land, dark rit, dark rit, grim tutor, infernal tutor/led, led
Iggy Pop, in a goldfish will win by turn 3 almost every hand. This is nearly the same as TES with one minor note: TES can fizzle/kill itself. Don't give me crap that it doesn't happen because I play the deck a lot and it simply does sometimes. A bad plunge or Diminishing Returns will happen once in awhile while Iggy Pop genuinely never has this problem.
As far as I can tell, the only general problem Iggy Pop has is an inability to beat mage hate, which seems to be easily remedied by cutting maindeck leyline of the void for 4x grim tutor. Grim Tutor does everything that Leyline goes against aggro (nothing) while allowing you to randomly setup early wins, recover from bad situations as an extra tutor, find bounce spells faster vs aggro-control, and setup double tendrils vs control. Additionally, from testing, it seems that Iggy Pop really wants a 2nd bounce and more land.
Notice that I don't consider Graveyard hate a problem with Iggy Pop. Played properly, Iggy Pop isn't graveyard reliant. Grim Tutor helps this significantly by letting you fetch more leds/dark rits as needed, but even standard builds can clumsily set up double tendrils by turns 5-6 if necessary.
From my perspective, the main reason to play TES over Iggy Pop is that TES can play faster than Grim Tutor-infused Iggy Pop against aggro-control, although the 1-2 turn difference (I seem to go off around turn 3-5 against aggro-control) doesn't appear to affect much since I'm trying for 2 Tendrils and not a single one. Xantid Swarm is much better against Control than Grim Tutor is game 1, but Grim Tutor is a lot better for Iggy Pop against aggro and pure control (which is likely to have more low-cc removal available).
See the Iggy Pop thread for more on my changes to Iggy Pop.
Re: [Discussion] TES vs. IGGy Pop - Which deck is stronger?
You're taking a pretty big assumption by even mentioning Grim Tutor, as you are the only person in the world using it in IGG right now. It's by no means the norm, nor has it been extensively tested by anyone other than you and maybe some of your teammates. The fact is, IGG is reliant on the yard, in almost every situation. It almost cannot win without Ill-Gotten Gains. This is not opinion, it's 100% truth.
As for results, people, you have to remember that the card that broke TES wide open was Empty the Warrens, which was printed less than 6 months ago.
