Re: [Updated Primer] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ganfar
So you mean that if they discard our top in turn 1, there is only downhill afterwards. And that's way we can't play Grim Flayer? Ofc the oppment will interact with us and we get cards in the graveyard.
It's not about get Grim Flayer as 4/4 soon as possible, it's about Grim Flayer can help us dig for the cards we want. Have you ever top and seen land, explore and another top that you don't want? Yes ofc you have. Grim Flayer will dump all three cards in the graveyard and become bigger. He doesn't need to be 4/4 on turn 2 or 3, he becomes bigger later like Gofy.
Connecting with a 2/2 for 2 isn't exactly reliable. He gets stonewalled by a lot of decks, including often by Goyf. I wouldn't rely on his combat damage trigger at all.
If you're not getting to connect with Flayer:
- Artifacts basically never hit the graveyard
- Sorceries also are hardly ever there (you only have one that stays there)
- Lands are there, but can be eaten by Deathrite
- Creatures are same as lands
- Deed and Courser of Kruphix can be enchantments in there
- You play 3 instants
Basically you need four out of those above. You don't have enough ways of killing Deathrite to reliably keep lands or creatures in the graveyard, and same for instants and sorceries. You have nothing that lets you discard cards or mill yourself unless you're connecting with your 2/2.
You want to play more removal for Deathrite (Fatal Push or Abrupt Decay), more artifacts or enchantments (probably equipment, maybe Oath of Nissa), planeswalkers (seriously why no Liliana LH? She's exactly what the deck wants).
If you're only planning on getting Delirium online in the late game, why are you playing Grim Flayer? Surely there are better lategame payoff cards you could be playing than a 4/4 for 2.
Re: [Updated Primer] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
fireiced
Nissa Vital Force (Best in Class)
The best walker in Nic Fit for all builds imho. Pressures JTMS and kills opposing Liliana of the Veils.
- 5/5 Trampling Creature land is fantastic as it dodges Abrupt Decay which is currently the most played removal atm, trades with Gurmag Angler and Reality Smasher & tramples over TNNs
- Regrowth ability is fantastic especially so when it brings back deed over and over again
- Emblems very quickly in 2 turns and the CA produced makes Shardless Variants cannot keep up with our CA even via visions
While I agree that Nissa is very good, it's probably worth pointing out that the land she animates does not get Trample, just Haste.
Re: [Updated Primer] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
gth842s
I like the eye towards consistency and resiliency in your deck construction, for sure, but I guess I just disagree about the idea of running ramp alongside low impact cards and situational / virtual card advantage.
That's the thing though, I'm not running low impact cards. I'm running 4 mana creatures with evasion that present 2 turn clocks, I'm running Dark Depths combo, I'm running trackers, I'm running a ton of removal, and I'm running a whole bunch of card advantage. CA, strong removal, and finishers. The recipe for literally any control deck ever.
Re: [Updated Primer] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brael
That's the thing though, I'm not running low impact cards. I'm running 4 mana creatures with evasion that present 2 turn clocks, I'm running Dark Depths combo, I'm running trackers, I'm running a ton of removal, and I'm running a whole bunch of card advantage. CA, strong removal, and finishers. The recipe for literally any control deck ever.
1 Chameleon Colossus in a format defined by Swords and Terminus isn't exactly a plethora of evasive finishers. I guess I just feel like you have to draw perfectly to beat Miracles.
I love the dark depths and the crop rotation experiment, as I've mentioned to you before. I think it's awesome.
I think we define card advantage and grinding slightly differently. Confidant is a great card, but I just don't think that Nic Fit is the right shell for him. He's so much better when supported by hymns and wastelands and KotR. StE isn't advantage, strangleroot geist is advantage but probably not the kind that's good enough for legacy. Courser's been discussed a ton on here, and the consensus seems to be that it's borderline. But honestly, my biggest issue is the low number of deeds and 2 tops instead of 3. So if it were me, I'd swap out the mediocre cards like Geist and add some more removal or hymns and another top.
But anyway, I really truly hope you do extremely well with it. My only point was that it's not how I envision and build Nic Fit. And I'll be trying out Depths whenever I move on from Sneak for sure!
Re: [Updated Primer] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
gth842s
1 Chameleon Colossus in a format defined by Swords and Terminus isn't exactly a plethora of evasive finishers. I guess I just feel like you have to draw perfectly to beat Miracles.
You would be surprised. The secret to beating Miracles is card advantage. They can't beat CA, which is something most Legacy decks are actually pretty short on (the format focuses on quality more than advantage). That's how this deck beats most decks actually, raw CA beats most decks.
Quote:
I think we define card advantage and grinding slightly differently. Confidant is a great card, but I just don't think that Nic Fit is the right shell for him. He's so much better when supported by hymns and wastelands and KotR.
It's a different method of achieving the same result. Those decks try and use attrition cards to strip the opponent of removal and deny them resources to play their cards. By doing so, their low number of threats survive, hit the opponent, and win the game. This deck uses the SE approach which instead looks at how much removal a deck is going to draw into if that's their game plan (Miracles has the highest amount), and then plays enough threats (backed by card draw to get them) that they can't remove everything I play. If your opponent can't remove your threats but you can remove theirs, you eventually win the game.
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But honestly, my biggest issue is the low number of deeds and 2 tops instead of 3. So if it were me, I'd swap out the mediocre cards like Geist and add some more removal or hymns and another top.
Deed works better when you have a bunch of 4+ drops and can pop deed for 3. Since I don't have that, it makes a lot less sense. Hymns don't work because BB isn't a good cost to pay in this deck. I would actually like one more SDT, but I cut the 3rd for a Garruk in order to raise the threat density, I'm still evaluating that one. It helps that I was finding the deck to be a lot faster with the non SDT hands than with the SDT hands.
Re: [Updated Primer] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Navsi
Connecting with a 2/2 for 2 isn't exactly reliable. He gets stonewalled by a lot of decks, including often by Goyf. I wouldn't rely on his combat damage trigger at all.
If you're not getting to connect with Flayer:
- Artifacts basically never hit the graveyard
- Sorceries also are hardly ever there (you only have one that stays there)
- Lands are there, but can be eaten by Deathrite
- Creatures are same as lands
- Deed and Courser of Kruphix can be enchantments in there
- You play 3 instants
There are only 5 that are a stone wall that costs 3 mana
Gofy
Thalia
Big Thalia
Knight of Requliry
True Name (If Grim becomes a 4/4, he can trample over 3 dmg and survive another day"
Most cretures in legacy that are two drop are 1/2 or 2/1. Grim will either become chump block or trade with a trigger. Trample is real relevnt, elves can't bounce thie creture to avdoid dmg. Same with Karakas. Few times Grim Flayer have been stopped by cretures when I have played him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Navsi
Basically you need four out of those above. You don't have enough ways of killing Deathrite to reliably keep lands or creatures in the graveyard, and same for instants and sorceries. You have nothing that lets you discard cards or mill yourself unless you're connecting with your 2/2.
You want to play more removal for Deathrite (Fatal Push or Abrupt Decay), more artifacts or enchantments (probably equipment, maybe Oath of Nissa), planeswalkers (seriously why no Liliana LH? She's exactly what the deck wants).
If you're only planning on getting Delirium online in the late game, why are you playing Grim Flayer? Surely there are better lategame payoff cards you could be playing than a 4/4 for 2.
Because Grim Flayer can still be played turn two. Even if he is not a 4/4 on turn two, he is still a great card. It becme a bouns later when he is a 4/4.
Liliana LH seems good for the deck, I agree but what can be removed?
Re: [Updated Primer] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
fireiced
Would not mind adding my input for the various walkers and their relative power in the various variants. :cool:
Nissa Vital Force (Best in Class)
The best walker in Nic Fit for all builds imho. Pressures JTMS and kills opposing Liliana of the Veils.
- 5/5 Trampling Creature land is fantastic as it dodges Abrupt Decay which is currently the most played removal atm, trades with Gurmag Angler and Reality Smasher & tramples over TNNs
- Regrowth ability is fantastic especially so when it brings back deed over and over again
- Emblems very quickly in 2 turns and the CA produced makes Shardless Variants cannot keep up with our CA even via visions
Garruk Relentless
The best walker vs Tempo decks or anything that wins with small critters like Elf & DnT. Also pressures Miracles abeit slower than Nissa Vital Force. SB option since it is bad vs Eldrazi
- Fight ability very good vs critters
- 2/2 Wolf for grindy fun
- Flip side has the awesome ability to tutor for a creature while triggering Explorers
Elspeth KR, Elspeth Sun Champion & Gideon Ally of Zen
Best vs Eldrazi, Medicore vs the rest hence usually a SB option
- Sun Champ floods the board while the other 2 clocks opponents down very quickly
Liliana the Last Hope
Good vs Critter decks and Miracles. Exclusively used in Atraxa & Leovold 4c builds.
- Does exactly what she do in Standard now which is picking off critters dead such as DnT critters and YP and makes Insectile Abberation a limpy 1/1
- Rebuys dead creatures to pressure opposing removal
- Ultimates regularly vs Miracles
The more I test it the more Nissa is just an absolute house in this deck. There's been quite a few games where I had no business winning but was able to stabilize. Although I'm a bit confused when you say trampling land.
I also want to test Ob Nixilis Reignited in the list. I'm curious if anyone has tried him out / has any thoughts on that.
Re: [Updated Primer] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Purple Blood
The more I test it the more Nissa is just an absolute house in this deck. There's been quite a few games where I had no business winning but was able to stabilize. Although I'm a bit confused when you say trampling land.
I also want to test Ob Nixilis Reignited in the list. I'm curious if anyone has tried him out / has any thoughts on that.
I have played Ob Nixilis Reignited. He is really nice with CA but slow. Easy to cast after turn two Phyrexian Tower sac Vet.
But Nissa, Virtual Force is just better then Ob.