Show and Tell/Exhume + Elesh Norn + Clone

Let me preface by saying this is not a stupid "Can I kill their Emrakul/legend by putting in my Phyrexian Metamorph" question.

Upon resolving Show and Tell or Exhume I choose my Phyrexian Metamorph and my opponent chooses Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite. At what point does the global +2/+2, -2/-2 buff happen? I know that off of a show and tell you can 'see' what the other player put in so you can name Griselbrand/Sneak Attack with a Phyrexian Revoker.

Basically I am wondering if I can choose to copy my Imperial Recruiter (or any other creature with ETB for others) with my Metamorph to get the trigger before both die, or whether Elesh Norn is already considered on the battlefield with it's global effect.

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Originally Posted by Kap'n Cook

Basically I am wondering if I can choose to copy my Imperial Recruiter (or any other creature with ETB for others) with my Metamorph to get the trigger before both die, or whether Elesh Norn is already considered on the battlefield with it's global effect.

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Originally Posted by Comprehensive rules

419.1b Effects that read "[This permanent] comes into play with . . . ," "As [this permanent] comes into play . . . ," or "[This permanent] comes into play as . . . " are replacement effects.

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In order for a replacement effect to happen, the event it is going to replace has to not have happened yet. Therefore, when you make the choice of what to copy, your metamorph (and their elesh norn) aren't yet in play. You can choose Recruiter and get its triggered ability. Both copies of recruiter will be in the graveyard before the trigger goes on the stack, however.

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Originally Posted by Kap'n Cook

Let me preface by saying this is not a stupid "Can I kill their Emrakul/legend by putting in my Phyrexian Metamorph" question.

Upon resolving Show and Tell or Exhume I choose my Phyrexian Metamorph and my opponent chooses Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite. At what point does the global +2/+2, -2/-2 buff happen? I know that off of a show and tell you can 'see' what the other player put in so you can name Griselbrand/Sneak Attack with a Phyrexian Revoker.

Basically I am wondering if I can choose to copy my Imperial Recruiter (or any other creature with ETB for others) with my Metamorph to get the trigger before both die, or whether Elesh Norn is already considered on the battlefield with it's global effect.

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Clones modify how they enter the battlefield - before they hit play, you choose what to copy. So with Exhume and Show and Tell, both creatures hit play simultaneously, ETB triggers are placed on the stack, and as soon as they ETB, static effects (like Norn's abilities) apply. Then once the spell has resolved, State-Based Actions are checked, and your Recruiter and your Metamorphed Recruiter die. Finally, players get priority with the triggers on the stack.

Something to think about - Hypergenesis doesn't put creatures into play simultaneously, you take turns putting them in. So if you put in Metamorph before Recruiter, you'd have to copy something already in play, but if you put in Recruiter then Metamorph, it can copy Recruiter. But in either case, even if your opponent puts in Norn first, then you put in Recruiter, then Metamorph, because SBAs aren't checked until after the spell is done resolving, you can still copy Recruiter.

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Originally Posted by phazonmuant

Clones modify how they enter the battlefield - before they hit play, you choose what to copy. So with Exhume and Show and Tell, both creatures hit play simultaneously, ETB triggers are placed on the stack, and as soon as they ETB, static effects (like Norn's abilities) apply. Then once the spell has resolved, State-Based Actions are checked, and your Recruiter and your Metamorphed Recruiter die. Finally, players get priority with the triggers on the stack.

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Not quite correct - triggers trigger when creatures ETB, but SBAs happen before any triggers go on the stack.

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Originally Posted by cdr

Not quite correct - triggers trigger when creatures ETB, but SBAs happen before any triggers go on the stack.

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Thank you, I misspoke (-wrote?)

Okay I thought of another question regarding SnT or Exhume.

Player A casts Show and Tell/Exhume. Player A plans on putting into play/returning Iona while Player B plans on Painter's Servant. Obviously Player A wants to name the same color that Player B picks and Player B wants to avoid that at all costs.

Since 'choosing a color' is not a triggered ability does the active player/non-active player stacking still apply? Or does choosing a color happen simultaneously? If it is the latter, how would one go about implementing this in a tournament setting?

-Kapn

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Originally Posted by Kap'n Cook

Okay I thought of another question regarding SnT or Exhume.

Player A casts Show and Tell/Exhume. Player A plans on putting into play/returning Iona while Player B plans on Painter's Servant. Obviously Player A wants to name the same color that Player B picks and Player B wants to avoid that at all costs.

Since 'choosing a color' is not a triggered ability does the active player/non-active player stacking still apply? Or does choosing a color happen simultaneously? If it is the latter, how would one go about implementing this in a tournament setting?

-Kapn

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Multiple instances of "choose a ___" controlled by different players are indeed covered by AP/NAP ordering.

101.4. If multiple players would make choices and/or take actions at the same time, the active player (the player whose turn it is) makes any choices required, then the next player in turn order (usually the player seated to the active player's left) makes any choices required, followed by the remaining nonactive players in turn order. Then the actions happen simultaneously. This rule is often referred to as the "Active Player, Nonactive Player (APNAP) order" rule.

Example: A card reads "Each player sacrifices a creature." First, the active player chooses a creature he or she controls. Then each of the nonactive players, in turn order, chooses a creature he or she controls. Then all creatures chosen this way are sacrificed simultaneously.

101.4a. If an effect has each player choose a card in a hidden zone, such as his or her hand or library, those cards may remain face down as they're chosen. However, each player must clearly indicate which face-down card he or she is choosing.

101.4b. A player knows the choices made by the previous players when he or she makes his or her choice, except as specified in 101.4a.

Thanks guys

How does the sequencing work with Show and Tell where multiple choices are made, since you choose both which card to drop and a color as a replacement effect?

Player A chooses Iona (hidden face down)
Player B chooses Painter's Servant (hidden face down)
Both players reveal cards
Player A chooses a color for Iona
Player B chooses a color for Painter's Servant

OR

Player A chooses Iona (hidden face down)
Player A names a color (not yet clear to opponent why a color is named or what for)
Player B chooses Painter's Servant (hidden face down)
Player B names a color (not knowing what opponent named a color for)
Both players reveal cards

OR

Player A chooses Iona (hidden face down)
Player A names a color (not yet clear to opponent why a color is named or what for)
Player B chooses Painter's Servant (hidden face down)
Both players reveal cards since all Show and Tell choices are made
Player B names a color, now knowing the creature was Iona and to name a different color

There is a huge difference in information depending on which.
#1 assumes you use APNAP but don't choose a color until the card entering is revealed and it is clear you must choose a color
#2 assumes APNAP and choices made simultaneously and cards remain "hidden" until SnT's resolution is complete
#3 assumes APNAP but "hidden" cards no longer become "hidden" as soon as the last such choice is made

Show and Tell doesn't require that the artifact, creature, enchantment, or land comes into play face down. That's just been the practice so either party avoids gaining any info in advance, to demonstrate both their cards enter the battlefield simultaneously, which is what should really happen. Situation #1 is correct.

Gatherer Card Rulings

If the cards being put onto the battlefield also require choices, those choices are made after all players choose their card. The active player makes choices for their card (if any), then the other players (if any) in turn order.

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Originally Posted by death

Show and Tell doesn't require that the artifact, creature, enchantment, or land comes into play face down. That's just been the practice so either party avoids gaining any info in advance, to demonstrate both their cards enter the battlefield simultaneously, which is what should really happen. Situation #1 is correct.

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Actually rule 101.4a, quoted above, says that is not just practice but actually an allowable rule - players may leave a card from a "hidden zone" concealed until all choices are made. All those events occur simultaneously since naming a color is part of a replacement effect for the creature entering the battlefield, but the choices do not, and the order of choices can be extremely relevant when naming cards.

I did not know the "Gatherer Card Ruling" though. Thanks. Does anyone know the comp. rule that refers to this case?

You make choices when required by game text. Show and Tell has a choice, so that choice is made in APNAP order. Then you potentially have more choices created by ETB replacement effects modifying the event Show and Tell created, so those choices are made.

"Gatherer rulings" are just rules tips - they're based on the Comp Rules but not official. The tip quoted is just referring to 101.4.

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Originally Posted by cdr

You make choices when required by game text. Show and Tell has a choice, so that choice is made in APNAP order. Then you potentially have more choices created by ETB replacement effects modifying the event Show and Tell created, so those choices are made.

"Gatherer rulings" are just rules tips - they're based on the Comp Rules but not official. The tip quoted is just referring to 101.4.

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Thanks.

My confusion was based on whether choices involving actions that occur simultaneously are all bundled together in APNAP order ("If multiple players would make choices ... at the same time, the active player ... makes any choices required, then the next player" - which suggests each player makes ALL their choices before the next player does) or whether they are replacement effects are processes afterwards instead of simulataneously. The text of 101.4 does not seem to address that specifically, but it appears we are dealing with choices for the text on the card first and then choices for any replacement effects after?

So then with Smallpox if you both control a Library of Leng, would you each choose which card to discard first, set it aside, and then each choose whether to apply the respective replacement effects afterwards in APNAP order?

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Originally Posted by FTW

So then with Smallpox if you both control a Library of Leng, would you each choose which card to discard first, set it aside, and then each choose whether to apply the respective replacement effects afterwards in APNAP order?

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Yes, you would.

You may be looking for the definition of replacement effects:

614. Replacement Effects

614.1. Some continuous effects are replacement effects. Like prevention effects (see rule 615), replacement effects apply continuously as events happen--they aren't locked in ahead of time. Such effects watch for a particular event that would happen and completely or partially replace that event with a different event. They act like "shields" around whatever they're affecting.

Replacement effects modify events as that event happens - you can't make a choice for a replacement effect until the event it's modifying is happening. The event doesn't begin to happen until all choices for that event are made.

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Originally Posted by cdr

The event doesn't begin to happen until all choices for that event are made.

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Thanks. This was the piece I was missing.

I thought that this included "all choices for any replacements of the event" being chosen before the event could begin, but apparently the order of sequencing is 1) make choices, 2) event starts happening, 3) make any choices regarding any replacement effects, 4) event happens with appropriate replacement effect.

Thanks a lot CDR!

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Originally Posted by FTW

Thanks. This was the piece I was missing.

I thought that this included "all choices for any replacements of the event" being chosen before the event could begin, but apparently the order of sequencing is 1) make choices, 2) event starts happening, 3) make any choices regarding any replacement effects, 4) event happens with appropriate replacement effect.

Thanks a lot CDR!

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There can also be multiple rounds of choices for replacement effects, if multiple replacement effects are applicable to the event: http://yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#R616