Thalia, guardian of thraben's taxing effect

Here's the situation:

My opponent plays miracle, I play Death and taxes.
My opponent has a Top in play.
Turn 2 I play Thalia.
Turn 3, my opponent plays counterbalance pays only 2 mana (Yes i was very tired) and keeps the possibility to run top.
My turn 3, I try to play a non creature spell (Sword of fire and ice), my opponent reminds me that I have to pay 1 more because of Thalia.

It was a minor tournament so I did not say too much (In reallity I should probably have hit the guy in the face for being such an ass. or not. violence is bad).
could it be considered as cheating if I call a judge?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tylert

Here's the situation:

My opponent plays miracle, I play Death and taxes.
My opponent has a Top in play.
Turn 2 I play Thalia.
Turn 3, my opponent plays counterbalance pays only 2 mana (Yes i was very tired) and keeps the possibility to run top.
My turn 3, I try to play a non creature spell (Sword of fire and ice), my opponent reminds me that I have to pay 1 more because of Thalia.

It was a minor tournament so I did not say too much (In reallity I should probably have hit the guy in the face for being such an ass).
could it be considered as cheating if I call a judge?

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No, you would get a warning only and return the card to your hand.

First, it is never cheating to call a judge. People need to be way more open to talking with judges and calling them over if there is ANY question of gamestate.

Second, Thalia's tax isn't a trigger or a may ability, I believe that it simply can't be forgotten. Like Lifelink or Trinisphere's effect. I'm not a judge, but probably should apply someday. I'm pretty sure any decent judge would have noticed the issue after questioning both players, and would have rolled back play to force the Miracles player to pay adequately for Counterbalance. You can sneak stuff through a Chalice (since it is an actual trigger on the other player's side), but not so with Thalia.

Ok let me rephrase, because after re-reading it is wrongly written:

My opponent casts counterbalance, without paying thalia's tax effect.
Then he calls on me because i don't pay the tax effect on my spell.

To me it's like cheating: he deliberately forgets thalia's effect for his spell and calls me right after.

WOuld a judge consider that as cheating?

No, you'd warn both players for failure to maintain gamestate and rewind it if possible. The fix is not both players getting a pass on the taxes an equal number of times. Even if your opponent blatantly overlooked it (which isn't really provable with this sample size of one), it would have been worse for them to realize the mistake and not point out future taxes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tylert

Ok let me rephrase, because after re-reading it is wrongly written:

My opponent casts counterbalance, without paying thalia's tax effect.
Then he calls on me because i don't pay the tax effect on my spell.

To me it's like cheating: he deliberately forgets thalia's effect for his spell and calls me right after.

WOuld a judge consider that as cheating?

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There is no "like cheating". Something is Cheating or not.

Using the phrase "deliberately forgets" is accusing your opponent of Cheating, since it's only Cheating if they remembered the effect but deliberately did not pay for it, knew that not paying for it would gain them an advantage, and knew that not paying for it was illegal.

If the three criteria above are not met, it is not Cheating but simply a Game Rule Violation.

It is up to a judge to determine whether something is Cheating, which can only be done by talking to your opponent. There is no way after the fact to determine whether it was Cheating, since whether it was depends on your opponent's state of mind. This is why you call a judge.

Sometimes less experienced judges may be focused on fixing the error and getting the game to continue rather than being alert for Cheating, so if a judge does not seem to consider the possibility and does not attempt to talk to your opponent to ascertain whether something was deliberate, it's quite acceptable ask to speak to the judge away from the table and express your concerns. Be polite though. If the judge still doesn't take the situation seriously you can appeal to the head judge, but again be polite and be ready to move on with the game after the final ruling from the judge/head judge.

IPG 4.8 Unsporting Conduct — Cheating:
A person breaks a rule defined by the tournament documents, lies to a Tournament Official, or notices an offense committed in his or her (or a teammate’s) match and does not call attention to it.

Additionally, the offense must meet the following criteria for it to be considered Cheating:

- The player must be attempting to gain advantage from his or her action.
- The player must be aware that he or she is doing something illegal.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tylert

Ok let me rephrase, because after re-reading it is wrongly written:

My opponent casts counterbalance, without paying thalia's tax effect.
Then he calls on me because i don't pay the tax effect on my spell.

To me it's like cheating: he deliberately forgets thalia's effect for his spell and calls me right after.

WOuld a judge consider that as cheating?

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I don't understand your point of view at all, whatsoever.

Whatever excuse you have, being tired and what not, Thalia is your card, certainly not Miracles player's card. While the Miracles player has the responsibility to maintain game state, you, the owner of Thalia has the most responsibility among all, you carry the Most Guilt, or the Most to blame for Not remembering Thalia's taxing effect. You signed up for Thalia/Blood Moon/Dark Confidant/Sulfuric Vortex in your 75, not your Miracles opponent.

This Miracles player might honestly forget about Thalia, but then recall the taxing effect when you play SoFI (or whatever Sword). Then again, he might have intentionally made an illegal play; hence that's speculating a player's intent, it's judge's business to determine that. We are not mind readers, let judge do that mind reading, this happens a lot in tournaments, all the time, judges know how to investigate something like this from experience.