[Deck] UWb Fish

[f|i[p]]

I have been playing with negator for quite a long time now, but not in fish build but with mother of runes as well, 2 negators is a good choice as when I ran it in w/b aggro decks, I had discard and 4 mothers protecting its ass.

Tombstalker does come down quite fast when I tested him, over negator. fish always wants a big beater as its the only thing that really makes fish weak, its lack of real threats.

On the side note I was wondering if hoofprints of the stag was ever tested in this kind of build?

[centurion8]

Alright here's my current build (I believe my last list was on page 19 or so):

Lands 18
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Plain
1 Swamp

Creatures 12
4 Mother of Runes
4 Dark Confidant
2 Phyrexian Negator
2 Serra Avenger

Other 30
3 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Thoughtseize
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Sword of Fire and Ice

SB
3 Extirpate
3 Vindicate
3 Pithing Needle
3 Duress
3 Propaganda/Enginnered Plague

I am not going to say Jitte is bad at all, I just think Sword of F&I is better in this deck.

EDIT: I really going to have to try Tombstalker. It does come down faster than Avenger and helps vs. grveyard decks. It is also a nice back-up plan with Negator. I completly understand people reluctance on running Negator, I haven't had trouble with him so I have left him in. There are a lot of reasons not to run Negator, but there really isn't a better beater for UWB at the moment (come on Shadowmoor, give us some love).

RE: Tombstalker for Avenger... I think SA is better in a deck w/ Jitte, being able to get in there for 7, and then block pretty much anything coming back at you. SoFI makes her worse imo, and seems really important in protecting your Negator (you all have bigger nuts than i do for playing that guy).

What do you board the Duress in against? I'm assuming control/combo, but 7 discard effects seems like a lot.

[alebronwebb]

I think cutting Negator to two is the correct choice, making it easier to protect him. Regarding threats, I think Raharu's and my list are looking better than "old" fish since we can stand up to aggro.

I've never tested Hoofprints, but I think it could be a win-more in the more aggro build.

Yeah, I am thinking that I am going to take out Avenger for Tombstalker.
At Duress, yes control/combo. It probably should be Orim's Chant or something but I don't have any at the moment.

This might be noobyness on my part but I don't see how SOFI makes Avenger worse, you still get 7 in and card draw. Jitte is more flexible though.

[centurion8]

I think cutting Negator to two is the correct choice, making it easier to protect him. Regarding threats, I think Raharu's and my list are looking better than "old" fish since we can stand up to aggro.
I've never tested Hoofprints, but I think it could be a win-more in the more aggro build.
Yeah, I am thinking that I am going to take out Avenger for Tombstalker.
At Duress, yes control/combo. It probably should be Orim's Chant or something but I don't have any at the moment.
This might be noobyness on my part but I don't see how SOFI makes Avenger worse, you still get 7 in and card draw. Jitte is more flexible though.

I completely agree about Hoofprints. I'd rather play Jotun Grunt in that slot, being able to eat yards, and dodge Pithing Needle (which is an auto-board against Fish).
I guess I was referring how you can accumulate more counters on the Jitte using SA as a blocker. Attacking into a SA w/ a Jitte seems worse than attacking into SA w/ a SoFI.
I'd recommend meddling mage or even stifle in the place of duress against combo, and I'm always a huge fan of Engineered Explosives (playable against pretty much everything).

[raharu]

I've vaguely considered Hoofprints of the Stag, and while I'll conceede that they might be win-more/ unutilitarian in Hanni Fish/ 'Gator Fish, in a more controling deck they could be quite decent. With a creature/ win-condition base like this:

Hoofprints of the Stag x3
Tombstalker x3
S'moar win x??

In a build like this, I would replace Confidant with Phyrexian Arena because Confidant's effect doesn't charge Hoofprints, and without Mother or Runes, you have to use hard-counters and CounterTop activations to protect a now sub-par envestment (no equipment, all the removal now targets him). Some board sweep would be in order, and Propaganda could/ shuld be maindecked with regards to the local metagame. I'll mull over a list and get back to you all at a later date.

[CB4SN13]

Alright here's my current build (I believe my last list was on page 19 or so):

Lands 18
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Plain
1 Swamp

Creatures 12
4 Mother of Runes
4 Dark Confidant
2 Phyrexian Negator
2 Serra Avenger

Other 30
3 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Thoughtseize
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Sword of Fire and Ice

SB
3 Extirpate
3 Vindicate
3 Pithing Needle
3 Duress
3 Propaganda/Enginnered Plague

With only 12 creatures, and 4 of them being MoR, wouldn't it be too little creatures to effectively play SoFI? Can the SoFI be taken out for something else?

[technogeek5000]

I was testing a trinket fish list a little while back and was working realy well for me.

4 Trinket Mage
4 Meddling Mage
4 Dark Confidant
4 Force of will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Meekstone
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Underground Sea
4 Tundra
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Island
2 Mishra's Factory

4 Engineered Plauge
4 Thoughtsieze
4 Leyline of the void
2 Tividars crusade
1 Tormod's crypt

The 6 goblins hate would probably help out in the post SHA metagame as with vexing shusher and bloodmark mentor goblins will become more popular and more problematic.

[NQN]

Actually i like Fish alot and since i built Uwb Landstill i have all the cards for this deck. So here´s the list I´m testing with:

// Lands
1 [R] Scrubland
2 [R] Tundra
2 [R] Underground Sea
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [LRW] Swamp (1)
1 [LRW] Plains (1)
2 [LRW] Island (1)
2 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [PS] Meddling Mage
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
2 [CS] Jotun Grunt

// Spells
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [AT] Swords to Plowshares
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
3 [SC] Stifle
4 [MOR] Bitterblossom
1 [ON] Smother
4 [NE] Daze
3 [LOR] Ponder

Bitterblossom is THE card. It pwns every NQG and even Landstill will always loose to it if they don´t get EE/Deed and counter my stifle. Anyway I don´t have much experience with this so maybe you can give me a little help?
I play only 5 duals because fetchies are more important and i want to win against Blood Moon. 3 Swords 1 Smother is because of MM. Suggestions?

[Frank The Tank]

So has anyone had any success with Bitterblossom?

[Jak]

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Academy Ruins

4 Brainstorm
2 Sensei's Diving Top

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Counterbalance
3 Spell Snare / Thoughtseize

4 Dark Confidant
3 Trinket Mage
4 Serra Avenger
4 Bitterblossom

4 Swords to Plowshares
1 EE
1 Meekstone

SB
4 Engineered Plague
3 Vindicate
3 Extirpate
2 Pithing Needle
3 Thoughtseize / Spell Snare

Something that could be promising.

[thefreakaccident]

I really like that list Jak... however, I think I would prolly want to run more than 1 of the stone, as it seems to be a pretty important piece in the deck...

I think that it would be cool to swarm with tokens, while shutting off their men as well... the control MU looks piss poor however.

[Teferi74]

I was wondering if Bitterblossom doesn't hurt too much beside Fetch, FoW, Thoughtseize???

I replaced Thoughtseize by Duress because it was too painful. And StpS can get rid of nasty creatures if Duress fails.

I run a very different version of the lists before so maybe that's the reason.

4 Trinket Mage
4 Dark Confidant
4 Meddling Mage
2 Jotun Grunt

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate
3 Duress
3 Stifle

2 Engineerd Explosives
1 Sensei Top
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod’s Crypt/


4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
2 Scrubland
3 Islands
2 Plains
2 Swamp



SB
1 Stifle
4 Smother
2 Eng Explosives
2 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Pithing needle
1 Jotun Grunt
2 Jitte


Trinket Mage is a vey powerful creature that's gives the deck a versatile edge. Some people say that Vindicate is too slow but it saved me a lot of times.

[raharu]

Has anyone considered Ensnare in a more agro-oriented version of the deck?

Also, I see a startling lack of large beaters/ strong win conditions in the newer versions of the deck, which is troubling. Fish doesn't have sufficent methods of consistantly removing roadblocks such as Tarmogoyf, or even smaller threats, so Grunt and the smaller creatures can seal the deal, which seems as though it would be a very significant problem.

[Unknown2]

what do you guys think about adding the counter/top engine to this kind of deck? I run it in UW fish and it's pretty decent, would we be able to fit it into 3 colour?

[FredMaster]

Let the randomness end:
//17 Lands - 4 Basic
4 Meddling Mage
4 Dark Confidant
4 Jotun Grunt
2 Shadowmage Infiltrator

//Autoincludes
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance

//Rest
2 Vindicate

[Unknown2]

i like that list
but i'm thinking

-2 vindicates
+2 serra avenger

[raharu]

Grunt? Seriously? The origional deck had less permanents and even then it had a problem keeping it on the table for a relevant amount of time and elected to only run three, and now that you've taken out a significant number of non-perm spells you're going to run 4 Grunts? I think not. I presume I would be able to get behind Grunt in this build if there were other relevant threats or if you could show me how grunt is actually playable, but considering that I see no evidence of either in this deck whatsoever, I'll have to say:

GRUNT IS TERRIBLE IN THAT LIST!

Recomendations:

Tombstalker: Yes, you run DC. You also run Sensei's Divining Top (which, by itself, has enabled Deadguy Ale to run TS) and Brainstorm, i.e. stop being a pussy :] I presume it's a matter of play attitude, if that makes any sense, meaning some people just, uh, to put it bluntly and probably offend someone, have more balls than others when it comes to taking totatly random risks when construction their deck.

Phyrexian Negator + MoR in a Daze slot, a Counterbalance slot, and two of the Grunt slots, with Negator in the other two: Well, this isn't really that hard to explain. They fucking wreck shit, and CB stops MoR removal pretty well.

Sera Avenger: it's a bit lackluster without Jitte, but -4 grunt, +2 Avenger, +2 Jitte could be pretty strong and make your other creatures (mainly Shadowmage Intiltrator) a bit better.

Uh, Morphling? That's all the ideas I have as far as finishers.

Closing comemnts: Really, 4 Daze and 4 CB? That's two slots you could devote to win conditions (see above), enhance consistancey (Ponders), encrease the disruption (Duress, depending on the metagame), or other tech or deckbuilding tweaks (more lands, Stifles, Wastelands perhaps but prolly not, other things I'll elect to keep hidden). Why take those slots for cards you don't want to see more than one of (in most situations)?

[Unknown2]

after readinbg your reply, i agree with mostly everything there, minus the morphling, mostly because of the fact that it doesn't need finishers, as it just beats with a bunch of small stuff.

[raharu]

after readinbg your reply, i agree with mostly everything there, minus the morphling, mostly because of the fact that it doesn't need finishers, as it just beats with a bunch of small stuff.

Uh, this is the most neutral and vague statement I think I've ever seen in my life. I'm not sure how to analyze your point as I can't find them. Assuming you're saying that the deck simply beats with small creatures and doesn't need any finishers, i.e. that list's creature base is fine as is, I have this to say:

In the age of Tarmgoyf, this is pretty much an invalid idea. Hell, in the age of, uh, always this was a pretty weak idea, considering that just about all decks in the format have answers to weak creatures (i.e. every deck ever runs some form of removal, even combo, and most of it is reall)y bad for Fish anyway [Massacare in particular for the lists I've seen posted]). Your creatures are rather frail. Yes, Counterbalance fixes this, but by then you could/ should win anyway, or you should use the time it creates to win fast instead of hoping that the CB soft-lock sticks until you beat through with a 2/2 or try to race with a 4/4 that has no evasion, dies to itself, and is rather prone to chump blocking.

If you're somehow saying that the "beating with small stuff" plan isn't effective and the deck needs a finisher:

Well, yes and no. Needs a finsher, but the deck can also win small by just playing tight and getting in damage from utility critters. Although I'm fairly sure that this isn't a good way to actually finish a game, it shortens your clock so that your finisher can come in and wreck shit within 2-ish turns, or something very close to that timeframe.

[Hanni]

Bitterblossom is a great card but it is not designed for Fish. Confidant, Fetchlands, Thoughtseize... and Bitterblossom? Good luck.

Trinket Mage? Yes, if you run Phyrexian Dreadnought. Which, honestly, has replaced this deck. Turn 2 Dreadnought is more potent than what Fish should be able to do. Fish was great a while ago (IMO), but if it is to be tuned for this new meta... it needs ALOT of work.

Why are people hating on Jotun Grunt? Jotun Grunt is a house. 2cc for a 4/4 was never bad. Yes, he's not a permanent threat... but with all the removal going around, nothing ever is (unless it can be recurred). Jotun Grunt hoses the graveyard overtime... and graveyard strategies are over-abundant right now.

Never cut Mother of Runes. MoR is one of the key parts to the deck. MoR supports the weak aggro of the deck, turning them into good beats. Between Jitte and MoR, the small 2/x aggro actually become very powerful.

Phyrexian Negator is terrible. Unless you have an active MoR that can protect him, he's going to hurt more than help. This deck doesn't generate enough permanents to support his drawback. 2B for a 5/5 is dumb when you can splash green for Goyf which can easily become a 5/6 for 1G in this deck.

Tombstalker is a solid choice, especially with Top.

Serra Avenger is a bit lame by todays standards. In the Goblin heavy meta, it was awesome. Nowadays, it's only valuable if it has a Jitte (or MoR).

Vindicate is extremely strong in the metagame nowadays because of cards like Counterbalance.

Morphling? Play a different deck if you like Morphling, IMO.

Stifle is dumb in Fish nowadays, even with Grunt. Unless you are running Wasteland (which I think is dumb in a 3c Fish deck), Counterbalance or Thoughtseize is much better than Stifle.

---

Mother of Runes
Jotun Grunt
Dark Confidant

Those should be mainstays, with Meddling Mage, Tombstalker, and Spectral Lynx being strong additional guys.

I love Meddling Mage, but only if the deck is built around it. That means running Portent and Duress/Thoughtseize.


Spectral Lynx is a metagame choice.

Honestly, I think this deck outdated. It was great back when I designed it, and could have been way better if I knew then what I knew now, but the evolution of Legacy has invalidated this approach, IMO.

The evolution of Fish has Stifles and Dreadnoughts.