I want to play MUC but I cannot make Jace a wincon. I tried the heavy blue removal suit 4 Pongify, 4 Rapid Hybridization and 2 Snapcaster Mage, supported by 4 Repeal and 4 Dominate (awesome against flipped Delver ! lol) and 2 Vedalken Shackles.
Then I gave up...
By the way, because of Snapcaster Mage, I wanted to go back to Fact or Fiction but I wanted so much to make Jace works in the deck...
I think, in a way, we can use the Pongify, Rapid Hybridization and Snapcaster Mage removal suit but then the 3/3s are annoying... Repeal, Dominate and Shackles are not enough, so I added Devastation Tide but it bounces my Jace... lol
Anybody else tried to make Jace work at 200% in MUC ?
Jace is pretty much -the- win-con of the deck. Pongify and Rapid Hybridization aren't going to do a lot for you. You aren't looking to kill creatures outside of board-wipes. Which has been discussed. Oblivion Stone is all you really need, supported by Vedalken Shackles and things like Powder Keg.Originally Posted by Kagehisa
However the viability of MUC has gone down tremendously in the face of Abrupt Decay as it answers pretty much every permanent in the deck and can't be stopped.
Yes, Decay is the reason I chose to use/test spot removal instead of Propaganda (doesn't protect Jace) and Powder Keg. I know I did things wrong :(
Long time ago, I suggested Collective Restraint (4cmc), the blue Moat for Engineered Explosives manabase, but it still doesn't protect Jace xD
Jace is the only wincon you need maindeck.
I play 4 Jace and nothing else as a my wincon, unless I kill with a creature stolen by Shackles. It's perfectly fine. 80% of the games in which you lay down Jace with suport and your opponent is in near-topdeck mode, they will concede anyway and save time. The rest of those 20% you just keep messing with their topdecks while drawing counters, and then you win with ultimate.
Jace in modern MUC functions as Morphling and Fact or Fiction AND Boomerang all in one 4-of slot. I feel as if it's a mandatory 4-of in MUC, and the best wincon, and probably the best CARD, the deck has right now.
Post-board, against some combo decks and control decks, you want to win a little bit faster, and 4 Vendilion Clique in the sideboard are perfect for that: they give you a 3-power boost to your clock and disrupt your opponent's combo/control. As good as Clique is, you don't want to play them in the maindeck because against alot of decks that are predicated on redundancy of threats (aggro decks, aggro-control decks) Clique is just a 3/1 creature-removal magnet that says "Opponent cycling {0}".But against decks that are predicated on card quality (combo decks and control decks), Clique is golden, and it's even better if they board out their creature removal in g2 after seeing zero creatures in your deck in g1.
Between 4 Jace maindeck (and sometimes 4 Shackles stealing a creature) and 4 Vendilion Clique in the sideboard, that's all you need in this deck. It insulates you from creature removal, giving you virtual card advantage against decks packing it. It also makes your opponent's life total basically irrelevant.
As far as creature control goes, all you need is 4 Vedalken Shackles maindeck, 4 sweepers of some kind (either Keg or Bomb usually), and I like to play Dream Tides in the sideboard, which stops green creatures cold and does something similar to Propaganda against others.
The problem with this is that Goblins and Merfolk own you if you that's all you play, BUT, in this current metagame, these decks are on the decline, which makes MUC perfectly positioned right now to compete.
If you go this route with all of the permanents (Shackles, Keg, B2B, Jace, Dream Tides, etc) that makes Misdirection and Divert so perfect, because your only real threat at this point is permanent removal like Abrupt Decay and Maelstrom Pulse and the like, which are dealt with perfectly by these cards.
While I do agree that Jace is a mandatory 4-off, and your primary win condition, I'm also a fan of running 2-3 Vendilion Cliques MD. It clears the way for Jace in the control mirror, trades, disrupts + presents a clock vs. combo, and a huge etc.
The problem with running 4 Shackles + 4 Keg/Bomb as your removal suite is that they all die to Abrupt Decay. I'm not suggesting any improvement, I'm just pointing out the inherent weakness of that plan. Clique also helps with this. Misdirection in the SB should however wreck most BGx matchups. Another option is running 6-8 fetchlands, 2 random basics, plus 3 Engineered Explosives. This also allows us to run Brainstorm.
The main problem with this deck is surviving the initial creature onslaught, or dudes + discard (Jund, I'm looking at you).
Back to Basics isn't as good as it used to be due to Abrupt Decay, but B2B + Shackles can overwhelm them (they only have so many decays).
A singleton Dismember MD could be considered.
It's also scientifically proven that resolving Nicol Bolas during a competitive legacy event causes the caster's penis to grow a good two or three inches.
Clique is definitely an awesome creature, and you *can* run it MD, but I've always found that if it is one of your few creatures, against most non-combo and non-control decks, it is nothing more than a removal magnet that turns on their creature removal and does nothing to disrupt their hand, because their deck is built entirely on redundancy of threats - i.e. making them cycle a Lightning Bolt just to draw a Chain Lightning, or cycling a Dark Confidant to make them draw a Tarmogoyf.
It all depends on what you think you'll see more of in g1. Aggro or Combo? If you see alot more Combo, I'd consider maindecking the Clique and putting Shackles in the sideboard. If you see more Aggro (as I typically do), I like my Shackles maindeck and then I board them all out vs. combo for 4 Cliques. This strategy is especially effective because it tricks them into boarding out all creature-removal (in the case of opposing control decks) in g2 and g3 usually if they see that you're running zero creatures in g1.
This is precisely why I resurrected my MUC deck recently. I thought long and hard about the removal that people were using and decided that maindeck Misdirection and Divert are the perfect solutions. They deal easily with Decay and give you card ADVANTAGE in the process!The problem with running 4 Shackles + 4 Keg/Bomb as your removal suite is that they all die to Abrupt Decay. I'm not suggesting any improvement, I'm just pointing out the inherent weakness of that plan. Clique also helps with this. Misdirection in the SB should however wreck most BGx matchups. Another option is running 6-8 fetchlands, 2 random basics, plus 3 Engineered Explosives. This also allows us to run Brainstorm.
Examples:
- Opponent has Deathrite Shaman on board, and you cast Back to Basics on your turn, leaving one Island untapped. At end of turn, he taps down his remaining two Bayous and casts Abrupt Decay targeting Back to Basics. You play Divert, redirect Decay to Shaman, and gain +1 card advantage by effectively 2-for-1ing your opponent (trade Divert for Shaman+Decay).
- Opponent has Tarmogoyf on board, and you cast Vedalken Shackles on turn three, leaving all your lands tapped. During his next turn, he plays Maelstrom Pulse targeting your Shackles. You play Misdirection from your hand, exiling a blue card, and redirecting Maelstrom Pulse to his Tarmogoyf. If he had two Tarmgoyfs on the board, you're really in business, but even with just one Tarmogoyf, you gain +0 card advantage, breaking even despite needing to pitch a blue card to Misdireciton, but more importantly, you keep your Shackles alive and probably go on to win the game.
This is another great aspect of playing Misdirection and Divert... they also deal with discard!The main problem with this deck is surviving the initial creature onslaught, or dudes + discard (Jund, I'm looking at you).
Examples:
- Opponent casts Thoughtseize on his turn 1 on the draw. You have one Island open and play Divert. Opponent is forced to a.) reveal his hand to you b.) discard a card of his choosing and c.) lose 2 life for the privilege of doing so! By Diverting a Thoughtseize, you actually *gain* +1 card advantage, AND protect the bombs in your hand.
- Opponent casts Hymn to Tourach on his turn 3. You have one Island open. If you play Divert, you redirect his Hymn back to his hand and force him to discard two cards at random, all while protecting your hand. With Divert, you actually gain a whopping +2 card advantage! You're trading Divert for Hymn+Card #1+Card #2! If you play Misdirection on a Hymn, it's not nearly as impressive for you but you still gain +1 card advantage by trading Misdirection+Blue Card for Hymn+Card #1+Card #2.
And don't think that Divert/Misdirection are useless vs. other combo and control decks that don't play discard or Decay/Pulse. These two cards are *gold* in counterwars. Divert is basically Spell Pierce and Misdirection is basically Force of Will in counterwars.
As I explained about, I feel that Decay actually makes this deck better if you play Misdireciton and Divert, because opposing players are so confident in playing Decay against a mono-blue deck and don't expect any redirection spells. Then you redirect their Decay to one of their creatures and completely annihilate them with card advantage.Back to Basics isn't as good as it used to be due to Abrupt Decay, but B2B + Shackles can overwhelm them (they only have so many decays).
I'm telling you guys... this deck is elite right now with Misdirection / Divert protecting its bombs. As long as Goblins and Merfolk and the rest of the Tribal + Cavern of Souls / AEther Vial decks stay mostly out of the picture, this deck owns: combo with all the countermagic + Clique postboard and even Chalice postboard, owns control by blanking their creature removal suite and playing Back to Basics along with more counterspells than they do, owns the BG decks that play Decay and Discard by redirecting all their stuff back to them, and mostly *deals* with the rest of the aggro decks with Shackles and Keg, and stuff like Dream Tides post-board.
Here's the list I've been playing with recently and doing really well:
22 Island
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Pierce
3 Divert
3 Misdirection
4 Powder Keg
4 Vedalken Shackles
4 Back to Basics
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
SB: 4 <Grafdigger's Cage/Relic of Progenitus/Leyline of the Void>
SB: 4 Vendilion Clique
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 Dream Tides
You've really got to try this build. It's so much fun to play and just complety annihilates certain decks.
Oh yeah - and playing Divert or Misdirection on Ancestral Vision (revealed by cascade guy like Shardless Agent or just suspended and cast by opponent)...
...maybe one of the top 5 best feelings you can have playing Magic.
I've got no doubt it rapes any deck sporting Abrupt Decay, but I'm concerned about its aggro matchup, Powder Keg seems extremely slow :-(, although aggro decks have been on an all time low recently. Las time I built my Miracles deck to punish Jund/BUG/Junk and faced 4 combo decks...
I am, however, not convinced by relying exclusively on Jace. You'll win 99% of your matchups with Jace, there's no doubt about that, but I guess i want another option available.
Have you tried Spell Snare instead of Spell Pierce, or at least a 2/2 split? Its at the height of its power once again.
When I get back home I'll look into proposing a list that has a more balanced matchup across the metagame. I'll also try to get a few games with your build.
It's also scientifically proven that resolving Nicol Bolas during a competitive legacy event causes the caster's penis to grow a good two or three inches.
Just like with most MUC builds post-Misstep banning, it is still very weak to all of the AEther Vial decks, and especially Goblins and Merfolk, because of Lackey (+Cavern) and Lord of Atlantis respectively, and Keg+Shackles just being too slow. If the metagame is infested with Goblins and or Merfolk I wouldn't play MUC.
But right now it seems to be an all-time low of Tribal aggro decks being played. Most of the aggro right now is of the B/G or U/G nature that relies on semi-fatties, and less on burn spells. This is the perfect kind of aggro to face with MUC, because to beat those decks all you need to do is stabilize with Keg+Shackles, because you typically don't have to worry about Burn spells finishing you off even if you've stabilized with Shackles+Keg+Jace. And against most of these decks, Keg is just barely fast enough to do the job 60+% of the time, whereas against Tribal aggro and Burn-based aggro (like Zoo), Keg+Shackles is obviously too slow.
Also, post-board, I don't know if you've tried playing this, but Dream Tides is an absolute HOUSE against green-based aggro decks, and not too shabby (especially paired with Back to Basics) against other types of aggro as well.
Also, I used to think like you do about Jace... that I still "needed" one more win condition. I tried shoehorning in some Morphling, some Meloku, the Clouded Mirror, some Call the Skybreaker, some Sphinx of Jwar Isle... but in the end, I was just wasting my time and wasting valuable card slots that MUC needs to devote to more answers and/or draw spells. After playing hundreds of games with this deck over the course of the past 3+ years, I've just accepted that anything in addition to Jace is basically superfluous. Why beat with a Creature, and try to protect that creature, when I can just play a 4 mana "Suspend 5: You win the game" spell that also functions as a draw engine, an every-turn fateseal, and a repeatable boomerang? The only problem you might run into is someone Extirpating or Surgical Extractioning your Jace and leaving you with nothing, but Vendilion Clique in the sideboard comes in as an alternate win condition vs. those kinds of decks anyway.
Give into the power of Jace. There is nothing else needed in Modern MUC but 4 Jace, and some Vendilion Clique, but not necessarily in the maindeck.
Jace isn't even so good without a shuffle effect (Jace without a shuffle effect often ends up being weaker than a FoF). I mean you have 100% zero shuffle effects.
Baneslayer Angel
a bullet renders all sizes equal
This is false. Can Fact or Fiction literally act as your win condition? If you play Fact or Fiction, you still need to play other win conditions in your deck. Jace is his own win condition so you can devote more slots to answers to opponent's threats. Also, can Fact or Fiction help you deal with creatures like Show n Telled Emrakul?
Jace is the most broken blue card in the the Legacy format. Even without shuffle effects, it's a:
My Win Condition 2UU
Shroud (Effectively: this cannot be the target of creature, artifact, or enchantment removal)
-1: Boomerang target creature
0: Draw a card
+2: Fateseal target opponent and destroy his topdeck.
Suspend 5: You win the game.
All you have to do with this deck is a.) stop enough of opponent's threats with your counterspells and redirection stuff b.) protect you and jace from creatures by using Keg and Shackles and counters and then c.) play Jace and thru combination of drawing cards with +0 ability (creating card advantage) and fatesealing opponent's topdeck with +2 ability, you win the game in 99.9% of situations once you play Jace.
Also, if you really think you need shuffle effects, it's trivial to put them in anyway. Just replace 8 Islands with 4 Misty Rainforest and 4 Scalding Tarn. Bingo. Shuffle effects if you really need them. I personally would rather have the 3-4 life that you lose with fetchlands during the course of a game (need every last drop vs aggro and burn) rather than the slight increase in card quality you get by using them in combination with Jace.
As someone who plays with blue decks as well as BGx decks, if you're relying on Misdirection/Divert to get you there versus BGx decks, you're going to be very, very sorry. I can't tell you the number of times Misdirection/Divert was just a dead card that I couldn't cast as my opponent was casting non-targetable spells. And Misdirection is a usually going to be just a two-for-two if you do get it to work, which pulls you even, but doesn't nothing to get you ahead. MUC was tough to play with before Abrupt Decay starting running rampant, and now? It seems like MUC is just a relic of yesteryear, much like Suicide Black and White Weenie.
22 actual Islands and no brainstorm to shuffle the flood back. Over a tourney not at your kitchen table I have 2 words to say to you.
Ttypical BG lists from a recent tourney:
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...3&iddeck=76379
Let's see, I count, as targeted (redirectable) spells: 4 Thoughtseize, 3 Hymn to Tourach, 3 Abrupt Decay, 3 Punishing Fire, 2 Lightning Bolt, 1 Maelstrom Pulse. 16 spells that Misdirection and/or Divert can redirect.
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...4&iddeck=75892
4 Swords to Plowshares, 3 Abrupt Decay, 1 Path to Exile, 4 Thoughtseize, 1 Maelstrom Pulse
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...3&iddeck=76181
2 Spell Pierce, 3 Abrupt Decay, 3 Daze, 4 Force of Will, 1 Maelstrom Pulse, 4 Hymn to Tourach
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...3&iddeck=76185
1 Dismember, 4 Abrupt Decay, 4 Daze, 4 Force of Will, 1 Thoughtseize, 3 Hymn to Tourach
I've been playing the MUC vs. BG matchup for many weeks now and I can tell you from real playtesting results that Misdirection and Divert make the matchup at least 65% in MUC's favor.
Even if you are merely breaking even on card advantage (when often you are actually gaining card advantage - i.e. Misdirected Hymn, or Divert on anything targeted), the key thing is that these spells are protecting your bombs - Back to Basics, Vedalken Shackles, and Jace. Resolved Shackles kills creature decks. Resolved B2B kills decks that rely on nonbasics. Resolved Jace wins games period. The only issue is protecting them, and because counterspells can't stop Decay, Misdireciton and Divert do.
I don't think you've actually tested my most recent list against the newest decks, but before being so negative about it maybe you should learn something about the matchup instead of just relying on years-old playtesting with vastly inferior lists.
The only decks that have a positive matchup vs. MUC right now are Goblins, Merfolk, and Zoo, and conveniently none are played heavily right now.
22 Islands is not that much land. It's just enough to ensure that you can cast Jace pretty reliably.22 actual Islands and no brainstorm to shuffle the flood back. Over a tourney not at your kitchen table I have 2 words to say to you.
Again, control decks like having land. Vedalken Shackles is mana-hungry. If anything, 22 is not often enough.
Lol. 65% in favor of MUC versus BGx decks? The only unfavorable matchups for MUC is tribal and Zoo? MUC should be placing at least 6 decks in every top 8 then. You're way ahead of the curve, you should try to keep MUC's 65% positive matchup a secret for as long as possible.
I'm not a huge tournament player and most people in this format are incredibly closed-minded about what is competitive and what isn't, and probably don't have the time to test out everything there is.
Fact of the matter is that MUC, based on my individual playtesting and "on paper" based on matchup analysis... has few weaknesses in this particular metagame. The big drawback to playing MUC has always been fast aggro, and especially AEther Vial aggro. In a format without much fast aggro and few players playing Merfolk or Goblins, and most players playing combo of some sort, MUC is poised to be a top contender. This has been common knowledge since the beginning of the game.
Vs. Combo (High Tide, Belcher, Perfect Storm, Ad Naus, Balustrade Spy, Dredge, Reanimator, OmniTell, Sneak'n'Show) - MUC has positive matchups across the board due to more countermagic than other combo, Force of Will, Misdirection, Spell Pierce, etc plus 4 Vendilion Clique and 4 Chalice of the Void post-board, also 4 grave hate for Dredge and Balustrade Spy combo. Jace can bounce Show n Telled Emrakul and the like as well. I don't need to tell you that 4 Chalice and 4 Vendilion Clique on top of 4 Force, 4 Counterspell, 3 Misdirection are brutal for combo to face post-board. And Balustrade Spy Combo and Reanimator have to face both 4 Chalice, maindeck counterspells, AND 4 Grave hate like Leyline of the Void.
Vs. BG based decks - Good matchups especially with the combo of Misdirection and Divert making Maelstrom Pulse and Abrupt Decay deadly for them to play. Shackles and Back to Basics clean up in here.
Vs. UW Miracles or UW Stoneblade - Their creature removal is blank against MUC, and MUC plays more countermagic. Back to Basics also limits their resources. These matchups come down to who sticks Jace, and MUC usually has a slight edge due to more countermagic and Back to Basics.
Vs. RUG Delver - This matchup is more even because they can be quite fast, but Misdirection and Divert function as extra Force of Will and Spell Pierce here, and you can also turn Bolts back on Delvers. Keg and Shackles are the way to win here, but it's 50/50 for the most part. Post-board, Dream Tides adds yet another threat on top of Shackles/Keg/B2B that they need to remove.
Vs. Goblins and Merfolk - The two truly bad match-ups for obvious reasons - Fast Lackey, AEther Vial, Cavern of Souls, Lord of Atlantis, etc.
Vs. random decks like Lands or MUD or Affinity or 12post, MUC has some insanely good matchups. It's next to impossible for a Lands player to beat MUC. MUD and Affinity take it hard from Keg and Back to Basics. 12post dies hard to Back to Basics and they don't have too many outs, and Jace takes care of their big guys if they hit play via Show n Tell.
Throw in the fact that Jace as a 4-of is maybe the best blue finisher+draw engine ever printed, and you have modern MUC's top-shelf potential in a non-tribal metagame.
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