Ok, looks like a more constructive comment
Sure, but MUC doesn't have a threat that wins directly the game. It's all about getting board advantage at one point and keep it with counter. A 2 clock is enough (Mishra)Hm, no. A non-land card isn't a threat. A threat is something that will directly win the game.
I would consider a threat as a must-counter or counter. you would agree that a good MUC player knows what to counter and when. It's not I counter every single spell.
counterbalance is a threat. Brainstorm & sensei not.
Krosan grip. hmm.. just the best card against MUC. Do you think it's played...So, except against Krosan Grip, how is the "combo" better ? You've invested more cards, more mana, you can't exchange the stolen creature if a better one comes out, and all of this for no benefit,
Well, then drop the combo indeed. If you cannot see the combo as a win condition.except you now have two additional 2/2 that you can't use to attack or block (unless you want to destroy the combo yourself).
2 additional flying 2/2 = 4/4 flying on the beat. defend with your stolen creature. You WON
If a better creature comes along use ............
SHACKLES
You are either very clueless or your meta plays only krosan grip as artifact hate lol.Originally Posted by ParkerLewis
Whatever, i never wanted anyone to discuss my deck and i never realized or thought i end up on starcitygames which i never read..so yeah guess how i found out?.
I play tournaments for fun and i usually do well at them. I think i seen some youtube movies of the worlds 2007 coverage. They asked one guy about his opnion about Legacy beeing on worlds. He disliked it , because he thinks that peopla are not innovative enough in this format and the format it self is not explored enough. So keep playing those counterbalances, tops, confidants and i keep try new things!
Anyway if you want to know something, feel free to PM me.
bye
Hi,
i'll disregard the part about "innovating", especially how it's not putting your ideas in a good light.
Anyway, please don't take my comments in a personal way. They weren't even directly addressed to you as I was mostly answering to Lothian. As the list ended up here, the point is to discuss it, and it will be, that's all :)
If you want, just see that as a consequence of your good result : people got interested into the individual card choices of the list, and are now trying to debate whether these could indeed be optimal or not. If you're not interested in the discussion, you don't have to follow it.
In any case, remember that nobody (and certainly not me) is forcing you to change your deck or your way of playing : )
Well, it's supposed to have a wincon, as every deck does. You can't always rely on stealing your opponent's ones. Otherwise, what will you do against any kind of combo player ? As you said, you can't counter everything, and counters only give you a few additonal turns before a storm combo player finds the protection he might want to wait for to go off (be it Vexing Shusher, Orim's Chant, or whatever). Protection against which you can't do anything once it hits - meaning you're dead. You have to have a clock in your deck by yourself.
yes, it is. Of course. AND ESPECIALLY because it's "the best card against MUC", since my opponent only has a limited number of those, and he already wants to play them on Propaganda, or B2B, ie permanents that are already very troublesome for him, it's not a problem for Shackles to be able to be hit by Krosan Grip. If he hits the Shackles, well that means that he didn't destroy the B2B with it. If he destroys the Propaganda with it, then the Shackles is still there.
But this is even worse... So you're attacking with 4 power worth of creatures and defending with what you stole. What did this cost you ? Two cards, one of which is completely unusable when it's by itself (Kira). One Morphling alone takes care of the attacking, defending and protecting himself.
Then you can steal the opp creature with one of the 3 to 4 Shackles in the MB. Yet again, two cards used, but with a much better result, as you now can attack with morphling AND the stolen card, knowing you'll just untap your morphling for defense if needed.
Truly, before I played with the deck, I would've been a hater too, but now after playing with the build for a while, I can definitely say Kira + Sower/Shackles = while not MVP, very good. True, the deck is not perfect, though it depends on your playstyle to what you want to add and subtract, I started with his list that I saw on SCG, started playing with it, tinkering, and now, with a list I am comfortable with, still the Kiras and the Sowers have stayed in the whole way through.
The ability to actually attack before a Morphling or a Meloku can come down is handy, and the Sowers by themselves can be incredibly disrupting, even without protection. Kira by itself is not entirely useless, being a 2/2 Flier that protects itself, allowing it to swing. With six cards that steal, it also becomes valuable in the end, when they thought it wasn't worth getting rid of it. The Kiras and Sowers are a nice piece of innovation, and having played with the deck, I can safely say thank you for innovating this lovely set of cards and having it come to my attention.
The point is not that Kira+Sower is a slow 2 pieces combo, but that previous and "less innovative" MUC builds did as well as this (and better) playing only Shackles, so we' re talking about playing 3 or 4 Shackles to stole critters or playing a sort of minicombo to try to did something similar.
Kira's dedklists waste 7 slots to did what any MUC decklist did with only 3 of them. And it did it cutting the draw effects. IT plays no AV, no fetches + Brainstorm, no TfK. The big point is that you' re gonna play creatures with a 2/2 body that costs you 3 and 4 mana with a 22 lands back up. Sometimes i get screwed playing 24 lands and doing a first turn AV, so let me say that play only 22 lands is something that sounds hilarious.
And please, stop saying that Kira is a great backup, it is completely useless if u don' t get a fast Sower, that means casting it on turn 4 (even without losing a land drop). I don' t want to know what could happen to this decklist when it faces ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh or other decks that packs a 4 off Daze. The ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh MU, wich normally is fairly good, became obv worst, because they slows you with Daze and even if you got Kira on board and play Sower to stole some Goyf they could simply fuck your combo by putting a mere Stifle on Sower's CiP ability.
Oh, and how good is your Kira and your Sowers against manlands? Have you ever faced Landstill in your lifetime? How could you stop 2 Mishra's attacking you? Probably you did a great chumpblock on they, wasting 2 creatures and 2 turns + 7 mana to cast it.
How could you not scoop to Deadguy? You have no backup from discard spells (no Brainstorms, no AV) and you' re forced to counter Sinkholes and Vindicate on your lands to avoid manascrew problems, it makes me simply lol.
You seem to be the most doubting, or 'doubtingist', to make up a word, why don't you try the deck out for yourself and let us know what you find out?
See, this doesn't work. I don't need to test Kira to tell you it's awful. It's a 2/2 for 3 that does... well, nothing. Or at least, nothing that couldn't be done better by more versatile and overall stronger cards. Is Sower potentially serviceable? Sure, but it's not so fragile that it requries Kira to make it good, and as Idraleo pointed out, it can't deal with manlands at all.
I have tested Sower to some extent and didn't like it within this framework. I do have it in some other decks, but it doesn't really pull its weight within MUC as its currently designed.
And yes I realize the above post wasn't directed at me, but I feel the need to point this stuff out anyway.
I get where you're coming from, but, respectfully, I have been playing with Kira for a little while here, and I think it's not as dead as it seems, which, just by looking at the list, is admittedly pretty dead. Though, decklists do talking much more than just me spouting stuff, and being new here and all, let me just show you what I'm running.
Lands: 22
22 - Island
Creatures: 8
4 - Sower of Temptation
2 - Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
2 - Morphling
Non-Creatures: 30
4 - Fact or Fiction
3 - Impulse
4 - Force of Will
4 - Counterspell
2 - Force Spike
3 - Spell Snare
3 - Back to Basics
3 - Propaganda
2 - Powder Keg
2 - Vedalken Shackles
Sideboard:
4 - Stifle
2 - Hydroblast
2 - Blue Elemental Blast
3 - Tormod's Crypt
1 - Propaganda
1 - Powder Keg
2 - Chalice of the Void
I definitely thought that there wasn't enough card drawing, but without fetches, Impulse beats out Brainstorm. I also like Spell Snare a lot more than Force Spike. And main deck Propaganda has worked out well for me, helping slow down Goblins, Ichorid, etc, all the virtues and vices of this particular enchantment have already been discussed. And Kadaj, I do agree with what you said above though. Back to Basics is MVP, even though I don't run four.
3 is the right number for Back to Basis Maindeck, I agree.
Thoughts:
- How random are 2 Force Spike?
- I strongly dislike Kira. It doesn't do anything on it's own. And I wouldn't want to tap myself out for it on turn three.
They're random, I will admit. But I don't really have a clue what to slot in there. If anything, I'd probably throw another Spell Snare and Impulse in. And I guess Kira comes down to a person's taste.
Change the 2 random Force Spike to Propaganda #4 and B2B #4. B2B and Propaganda too useful to cut, regardless of Impulse in the deck.
Oh Jesus, why anyone did anything to stop those horde of n00bish decks? You and your friends took what MUC is and start kicking it in the ass. Those last decklist have no sense, you did the final senseless decision of playing BOTH Kira, Sower AND Shackles!!! And you ever face the game playing 22 lands!! Finally you added Impulse, but you' re still playing an unrelevant number of lands, so Impulses will be most of the times a cc2 spell that founds you the 3rd/4th land. You still waste 6 slots to did what Shackles did by theyrself. If you love Kira and Sower, wich is completely out of this deck, plz open a thread on New and Development on your Aggrocontrollish-Kiracomboish decklist but plz stop, stop, stop to kick this thread in the face T_T
Stop insulting the others; this deck is not noobish, it won a 52men tournament. If you don't like the deck there is no reason to flame who run it; someone can run every fucking deck he wants.
And this is not kicking the thread in the ass, this version is MUC, only 6 cards changes, it's MUC with Kira and Sower inside, it deserves to stay like the other.
A single tournament means nothing relevant. I' m sure that if we could read the report, we' ll saw that he hits most of the times good mu by theyrself, and that he probably won' t mulligan so much or have difficulty to get 4 consecutive land drops.
Everybody still miss the big point, that is not Kira or Sower, but that those guys PLAYS 22 LANDS and is avoiding from 1 page to explain why they do it, because if they play 6 more sorcery spell i wanna know how did they do a land drop each turn from turn 1 to turn 4 without any Brainstorm, AV, TfK or other manipulation spell!
Shawon last adds 3 impulses but he is still playing 22 lands. Are seriously saying that is normal to cut lands in a deck that can' t miss land drops to play a 4cc sorcery spell?
That's no reason to not give constructive suggestions.
I agree with you that 22 Island is too low, and Force Spike/Impulse are probably not optimal.
But there is nothing wrong with running Sower of Temptation. Shackles is slow and can't take big dudes early on. Being able to steal them is nice.
I'm not a fan of Kira myself, but if you're a willing to up the number of creatures that can't protect themselves, I think Kira would be fantastic card.
Of course, I don't think 4 Sower is enough creatures to justify 2 Kira.
I would probably supplement them with 2 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir if I was going to run Kira. Kira + Teferi + Sower = Sex.
So to be productive...
I think that list above should go....
-2 Force Spike
+2 Island
-3 Impulse
-1 Random Card
+4 Ancestral Visions
and if you want to play 2 Kira, consider making room for 2 Teferi too.
Hm, I have to agree with the Force Spike change. But I don't honestly like Ancestral Visions. Thanks for at least an honest attempt at helping. And Teferi might be good.... I'll have to test. Thanks.
I wouldn't agree about force spike.Hm, I have to agree with the Force Spike change. But I don't honestly like Ancestral Visions. Thanks for at least an honest attempt at helping. And Teferi might be good.... I'll have to test. Thanks.
This is exactly what this deck is all about.
You don't counter (fow) or impeach creature, you steal them
You don't cut force spike because you play poker. And you play B2B. And you try to keep 1 floating mana so opponent thinks twice before going full tap.
Force spike is countering any turn2 play from the opponent (hymn or any nasty stuff), and doesn't lose you your land drop (daze), so you're ready to counter following turn again.
22 lands gives you 2 lands per opening hand. You don't impulse for more mana. you just draw mana.
The philosophy of the deck is blue. You deceive your opponent constantly
And discussion for kira+sower combo is not really relevant since after sb, this deck gets back to full control. But with the current meta, it's probably better to mb sower than the opposite
Well anyway. it's an innovative deck, and I'll try it.
Now if you want to go back to cut this cut that and end up with a classic list you've been discussing for last 30 page, please do.
I'm pretty sure that is false, and even if it were true, that's horrible for the Kira+Sower list, actually that's a horrible start for any MUC deck. You want 3 lands on average in your opener. With 2 lands in your opener, you have two turns to see another land before you skip land drops. With 3 lands in your opener, you have 3 turns, and drawing 3 cards by then should ensure you a 4th land drop. That is why I run 25 lands.22 lands gives you 2 lands per opening hand.
Fine, play 2 Force Spike.
But don't skimp on the land. This is MUC. If it doesn't make it's land drops, it can't play most of it's cards.
All it's best cards cost 4 mana or more.
I never find myself mana flooded with this deck. I want every island I can get my hands on.
And also, the decks needs actual card draw before FoF.
Visions is a godsend for this deck. The games go on long enough that you always draw three cards off of it, all for just one mana.
In a deck like MUC I think, as most people have stated that the land count should definitely be above 22 and most likely around 24-26 to insure enough lands. The list I have recently been playing runs 25, and is one of the 3 creature lists, similar to those posted before. A question I have for everyone as a whole who plays the deck, in testing or seriously as their main deck choice, is Powder Keg better than Cryptic Command. From my experiences in Type 2 and Extended, with blue decks such as Previous level Blue or Faeries that both run Ancestral Visions and Cryptics, where does Powder Keg fit in. Keeping it at 1-2 makes the most sense because you play a lot of 3 drops (B2b Propaganda, Shackles) but it still doesn't seem to do enough compared to what Cryptic can do, in being a clutch topdeck or early game hoser. My last debatable slot that I have been using but not really liking is Foil compared to any other counterspell as a 2 of. Foil can definitely be clutch but like others have said the lands are very important and losing one early game can really be a burden. Other than that I am enjoying playing this deck and annoying people on MWS with the slow pace but overwhelming amount of answers in the deck.
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