It's GG because you follow it up with other spells that they can't deal with without mana. Also, it's very rare that they'd be able to put all 4 basics out and many lists only play 2-3; at 2-3 they can effectively play one spell a turn and if there's a Propaganda out, they can either play a spell or attack once per turn. At that point it just takes a 'Pling, Shackles, Keg or a second Propaganda to end it.
Turns out I thought Foil had a different alternate cost that it does. It's such an obscure card these days. I agree with you now that I've looked it up, Kadaj, but I'm still a little wary about running 3 of them. If you do drop one of them, what would you consider putting in that slot? What tops your list of things that didn't make the cut strictly from space concerns?
An island, haha. This deck really wants 24.5 lands, so 24 is actually slightly on the low side. If you'd prefer a business spell, perhaps attempting Tabernacle at Pedrell Vale in that slot would be something to screw around with. Beyond that, I haven't really done much with that slot.
Nice opening post, i believe MUC still has some good days to live in legacy.
Your MU analysis is missing a very popular deck atm (at least in my meta), namely ichorid. Propaganda doesn't seem to be enough to stop them, do we have even a slight chance to win by tunning the SB or is it better to just forget this MU?
I do not agree with you on foil though. I DO recognise that although it is a worse fow it is quite good in mid/late game when the number of cards and lands are not a problem anymore. But I think at this point you will have counters in hand anyways, and you should be dominating the game (alhough it can always help you in counter battles). I'd rather use force spike or spell snare which are better early-game, by preventing them from droping an early bomb.
Also, I would trade 1 propaganda MD for 1 vedalken shackles, but I guess this is purely a metagame decision.
Finally, wouldn't 1 or 2 repeal MD fit the deck well? It's a decent card on its own, and can help you to get rid of a random pesky artifact or enchantment that could have resolved early on (say, smokestack or humility for instance).
I find it hard to believe any non-LftL based deck wants for 24+ lands. And even if it did, wouldn't a little thinning in the form of a fetchland be nice? Or a singleton brainstorm, for those times you just need to see more cards, in case your answer is around the bend? Or repeal, which Maelig makes a good argument for. You really think the deck would need 1 more basic Island in place of a 4cc spell with a steep alternate cost, rather than any of those?
Well, you can't discard Fetchlands for Foil ;)
Against Ichorid, Propaganda should be gamebreaking enough.
In my stack-oriented build I just have 4 Propaganda and 3 Crypts MB which were usually enough to win.
Sure, they might get nuts via Breakthrough (where I have FoW and Kadaj Foil in addition!) and just wreck you before you can lay down a T3 Propaganda, but which deck wouldn't lose to that?
Originally Posted by OsseOriginally Posted by thefreakaccident
The thing is, ray of revelation (SB) and angel of despair (MD) see alot of play, and since you have practically no way to hinder the dredge (they don't need to play spells), they will play these very often, and multiple times (you won't be able to counter 3 dread return in a row). The fact that you have no clock is also a big problem in this MU, as against any combo deck.
Tormod's crypt MD? Seriously?
From "deadlock"
"Alex how do you liked Oona? It looks cool, but i dont know - i just like Morphling - saying gg against decks that dont pack mass removal.
What about Faeri Macabre? I dont think removing two cards is enough, especially against Ichorid and you cant even hardcast it. Its Needle proof though."
Oona is needed as it can create an army of its own and it is hands down better than Meloku. But you run morphling as well of course.
Farie Macabre is needed in the side as it IMO is the best graveyard hate for a blue deck. though MUC runs a lot of counterspells, against the current tier one combo decks (TES and Iggy.deck) the number of counterspells isn't always enough, as they always run 4 chant and sometimes X Abeyance as well. Farie Macabre gets around the O. Chant, (not abeyance, but most decks only pilot two of these if any). The vast majority of the time these decks need iggy to storm up, and when they put iggy on the stack you can discard FM, and remove the two cards they want to target. then let iggy resolve and get FM back again.
Against the dredge match up you add +4 propaganda, and FM to get rid of akroma's etc.... that is assuming you don't lock them under propaganda and BTB.
Is there a particular reason why Kadaj's version wouldn't want to run Spell Snare as well? It's good against literally every deck (only mediocre against Tomb/City decks), at any moment of the game, and your curve is so staggered that you'll have U open plenty of time.
YOU'RE GIVING ME A TIME MACHINE IN ORDER TO TREAT MY SLEEP DISORDER.
Dregde is a very difficult MU... you have propaganda and keg MD to deal with tokens, obviously the prop is the stronger of those two... you can also bring in grave hate in the board post board, but I almost totally agree with you, the MU is quite terrible.
Echoing truth in the board is pretty decent, as it hits mass tokens (ETW/Bridge), and has to opportunity to also hit moebas/ichorids (can hurt them quite a bit if they get a lucky dredge or go agro with ichorids... I have actually won a couple games against unskilled ichorid players with that card...
Crypt is a very good card if your deck runs a quick clock, but I do not think it is for this deck... the white splashed builds can run another four propagandas in the form of ghostly prison, which would be backbreaking against ichorid, as well as other agro decks.
Sorry, my fault, was a typing error - it's SB of course (look at my list posted by Kadaj). Preboard I just got to scoop against Dregde without Propaganda MB, but that's something I can live with.Tormod's crypt MD? Seriously?
Postboard, I have far too many counters I just can't side them all out (Usually -4 Spell Snare, -3 Leak, +4 Propaganda, +3 Crypt [if the Repeals were Echoing Truth they would get in, too, but they are Repeals for a reason ;)]). So I am left with 4 FoW and 4 Counterspell for their 2-3 Rays and usually 3 Dread Return (which are not always a mustcounter when you have multiple Propaganda out or they don't have Angel in yard if they really play it [never faced a version with it here in Germany]). As long as you have a Propaganda out and hinder them from building up an army that might hit you out of the blue (read: have EE or Keg ready to blow @0 for their tokens / remove their yard from time to time) you more or less have a fair chance.
Originally Posted by OsseOriginally Posted by thefreakaccident
Sorry, probably you are playing the wrong deck. Dredge mu is favorable to MUC preboard and remains favorable post side, preboard they have no out from Propaganda, and it is not impossible to "survive" till 3rd turn to drop it. Post board the situation is the same, they will waste some turn to did Threapies on Propaganda or they got to keep slower hands or go to hard mulligan till they find a Chain of Vapor. In each of those cases, CotV will be better than Tormods because it stops at the same time Pithing (on Keg) Therapies and Chains, and it is more useful in other MU, first of all against TES, FT, Belcher, Burn.
Are you seriously going to run Tormod on your sideboard? There's other MUps where they could be useful except of Dredge?
Yes, a very simple reason. What would you cut for it? Foil serves a specific role, once again, that Spell Snare cannot fill. Namely, an early game pitch-counter that has the flexibility to be utilized in the late game as well. Yes, Spell Snare is good against a lot, but Foil is more or less good against everything and hits a much wider range of targets.
If I had unlimited space obviously I'd include Spell Snare, but seeing as I don't, I can't.
How's monoblue handling loam decks? I'm asking since I don't have a clue. I was just wondering if there's any use for Declaration of Naught, and came to a conclusion that it answers best recurring threats. Then I started thinking of recurring playables and loam was the first I thought. All kinds of survival/genesis stuff also. And Cabal Therapy -heavy decks, like Ichorid and Aluren.
Without chalice @2 it's pretty hard game1. Ichorid is playable.
You deal with recursion postboard with tormod's + faerie macabre. The rest of the side is red hate.
Note: there's also the possibility to include Cunning Wish in a stack-oriented build like Doks'. Since you're splashing Basics anyway, you might consider Wish targets like Swords to Plowshares, Enlightened Tutor (it's card disadvantage but it's the same as it is in Landstill: a "I win now"-card) or Extirpate. I have gone so far to include one or two duals in a Wish-build; it surely doesn't work too well with Back to Basics, but the additional stability of your manabase makes up for this in some metas.
Loam is a sort of weird matchup. There's not a whole lot you can do about Loam itself, particularly not game 1, but you'd be surprised how easy it is to make it nearly impossible for the Loam player to actually kill you before you get out a Morphling or something that makes it very difficult for them to win before you kill them. It's one of the few matchups where one could conceivably classify MUC as the aggro deck, or more accurately aggro-control. You're role is to let Loam do whatever they want with cycling lands and Loam itself, but do NOT let anything like Seismic Assault, Terravore, Goyf, etc, resolve unless you have a Shackles or other immediate answer available. Use Keg to keep manlands away from your life total and kill them before they can take advantage of the inevitability Loam provides.
Consider that Vendillion Clique helps a lot against Loam, they are perfect to put Loam on bottom library giving to your opponent a random card, and simoultaneously they are a good 3/1 unbloccable beater...
I said crypt wasn't for this deck in my post... but whatever...
Ichorid is not a good MU by any stretch of the imagination, unless you are mulliganing for your propaganda, you will not see it by turn 3 every game, arguing that you beat a deck because you run a specific card is not a good arguement, that's like saying you beat goblins 70% of the time because you run shackles.
Your opponents obviously must not know how to pilot their decks properly, or you just haven't tested the MU at all. Ichorid is and probably will remain a tough MU for MUC for a long time to come...
Now, you can board in hate cards in the sideboard, but being mono-blue, there are very few cards we have access to.
Lets not turn this into an agruement, MUC is good, but it is still allowed to have some bad MUs.
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