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Thread: [Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)

  1. #41
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    Re: [Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)

    Ichorid is not a good matchup. Anyone who claims otherwise hasn't tested it nearly enough, or is just blowing smoke. Seriously, Propaganda is not nearly enough to win Game 1 with any regularity considering they will have outs in the form of various bounce spells, and it will be hard to fight back with countermagic because Therapies will likely be flying everywhere. Game 2 gets better for versions that pack actual graveyard hate, but even then it's still no better than 40-60 post-board.
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  2. #42

    Re: [Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)

    Hey I was told to post here, so here it goes.

    Why is there a consensus that Brainstorm isnt good in this archetype? And if this is somehow true, why would it not be beneficial to run some fetchlands to make Brainstorm more useful?

  3. #43
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    Re: [Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)

    Dont_Stop_Believin: Just read the opening post. There is no consensus.

    Kadaj: Ichorid doesn't play maindeck bounce, so if Propaganda hits Game 1, you win. Still a bad matchup though.
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  4. #44
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    Re: [Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)

    I've seen a few lists with MD Chain of Vapor and crap like Angel of Despair of whathaveyou as Dread Return targets, in which case you don't immediately win if Propaganda hits, although it is one hell of a thorn in their side. But yes, if they don't MD bounce Game 1 is much less terrible. As you said, it's still not exactly good though.

    Edit:

    Dont_Stop_Believin, read the opening post and see if that clarifies the positions for you. If you still have questions about it after that obviously we'd be glad to answer them.
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  5. #45

    Re: [Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)

    Also Ray of Revalation or whatever the flashbackable enchantment destruction still sees some play in some sideboards and seems like it would rock your propagandas, making g2 and g3 a little better than g1 but not by a ton.

  6. #46
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    Re: [Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadaj View Post
    I've seen a few lists with MD Chain of Vapor and crap like Angel of Despair of whathaveyou as Dread Return targets, in which case you don't immediately win if Propaganda hits, although it is one hell of a thorn in their side. But yes, if they don't MD bounce Game 1 is much less terrible. As you said, it's still not exactly good though.

    Sorry but i'm not understanding how they could won G1 after you play a Propaganda, assuming that your version plays Foil that gives you more chances to stop theyr first threats to drop Propaganda, considering that if you cast a B2B they have to start drawing instead of dredging to get some Land or LED, considering that you if you are able ti drop a Propaganda the only thing to handle is Dread Return, maindeck CoV and\or Angel of Despair probably is played by 1 or 2 smurfs all over the world. The only target other than Akroma and Zealot that have a sense in dredge to be reanimated by a Dread is SSS; any other target, from Ancestor Chosen to Angel of Despair to red Akroma are basically worst than the previous i've mentioned.

    Consider that in g1 is fair that your opponent, except someone who knows you, will be able to know that you' re playing MUC if you don' t start with AV>go. If he cast some Therapies between turn 1 and 2, is simply to assume that they' ve keeped slow hands without as much components as they need to do a quick end up. If dredge players saw 2 Island as your first land drops, it is much viable that they are gonna to call Trinket Mage by Therapies instead of a random Propaganda.

    On g2 they could side in hate, but almost slowing theyr gameplan and giving you the possibility to get more answer to handle better theyr threats. They have to side in both answer to Propaganda AND to Powder Keg\Tormod\Macabre, that will be CoV and Pithing, but it makes even more stronger CotV if you play it from your sb or directly into maindeck.

  7. #47

    Re: [Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)

    Idraleo: have you actually played the Ichorid MU?

    It's funny how everyone seems to have such a great MU against that deck, just like everyone rapes ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh too!

    Propaganda in itself is too slow. It needs additional disruption, like FoW to get there in time. Foiling t1 on the other hand probably just means you can't get the landdrops for your propaganda, and your likely to get it therapied anyways.

    Chaining Kegs can also buy you time, but not many turns since Ichorids are quite a clock all alone.
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  8. #48

    Re: [Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)

    As an Ichorid player, I'll have you know that if your big draw spell gets countered, it slows you down considerably. A hand like

    LED, City, Ichorid, Golgari Grave-Troll, Breakthrough, Golgari Thug, Bridge From Below

    Or any hand with only one draw spell is going to slow things down.

    The average had for this deck has between two and three lands. Pitching a slow card and an Island gives the deck three whole turns on the draw to draw an Island- time they gat once they Force the draw spell.

  9. #49

    Re: [Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadaj
    At any rate, Chalice of the Void and TfK were something I probably should've mentioned in the "Cards not included" section, and perhaps I will go back and edit it in. Basically, they suck in MUC, contrary to what people continually try to claim. In fact, Chalice sucks much for the same reason Counterbalance and Stifle suck. It provides tempo, not card advantage as some people seem to think, that this deck is ill-equipped to take advantage of.
    I tried to make that concept with chalice work for a while and I dont understand why you dismiss it so abruptly. I used Mox Diamond + 4 Chalice which was a "debateable" choice, but it still worked okay. You also benefit from having a possible turn 2 counterspell. So I thought this approach might at least have some potential.
    I like chalice in this deck because it solves the problem muc has against decks that play a lot of small threats that still are dangerous in the sum. You cant counter all the spells you need to counter.
    I dont understand the point that chalice isnt card advantage. 1 card deals with numerous cards of your opponent and thus is card advantage, same goes for counterbalance, a chalice for 2 is like a spell snare with buyback. If you think of this as merely tempo advantage, do you mean that once the opponent gets to remove the chalice he still can play his shit? A lot of "threats" muc plays work that way too though. Back to Basics or propaganda dont do a lot more than creating tempo advantage cause the opponent has to find a solution which he eventually will find and in that time you can stabilize draw a load of cards and counters and win the game yourself. This is tempo advantage too, just on a different scale as for example stifling an enemy's fetchland.. The advantage you gain through chalice or cb top is actually quite smiliar.
    I mean I like the list from your opening post and I certainly dont claim to know a lot about this deck. I'm just curious why you think so negatively about trying chalice/tok.

  10. #50

    Re: [Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)

    Casting chalice at 1 turn 2 or at 2 turn 4 is alot less sexy than the awesome plays stax and stompy decks are capable of. And running sub-optimal cards such as moxes isn't going to solve this problem effectively.
    That being said, I agree that the idea shouldn't be dismissed alltogether, some builds are quite decent with it (but I'd rather work on a mono-U stax-like if I start going that way).

  11. #51
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    Re: [Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)

    Quote Originally Posted by Krm View Post
    I tried to make that concept with chalice work for a while and I dont understand why you dismiss it so abruptly. I used Mox Diamond + 4 Chalice which was a "debateable" choice, but it still worked okay. You also benefit from having a possible turn 2 counterspell. So I thought this approach might at least have some potential.
    I like chalice in this deck because it solves the problem muc has against decks that play a lot of small threats that still are dangerous in the sum. You cant counter all the spells you need to counter.
    I dont understand the point that chalice isnt card advantage. 1 card deals with numerous cards of your opponent and thus is card advantage, same goes for counterbalance, a chalice for 2 is like a spell snare with buyback. If you think of this as merely tempo advantage, do you mean that once the opponent gets to remove the chalice he still can play his shit? A lot of "threats" muc plays work that way too though. Back to Basics or propaganda dont do a lot more than creating tempo advantage cause the opponent has to find a solution which he eventually will find and in that time you can stabilize draw a load of cards and counters and win the game yourself. This is tempo advantage too, just on a different scale as for example stifling an enemy's fetchland.. The advantage you gain through chalice or cb top is actually quite smiliar.
    I mean I like the list from your opening post and I certainly dont claim to know a lot about this deck. I'm just curious why you think so negatively about trying chalice/tok.
    The major issues I have with Chalice are as follows. First, it requires other crap to be good. Chalice on its own with nothing to supliment it is extremely weak in MUC because the earliest it can come down is turn 2, at which point it is probably a turn too late to prevent a dangerous 1 drop from hitting the field. Chalice at 2 is so slow that if your opponent can't answer it they deserve to lose, and so on and so forth. There just isn't enough room in good MUC lists for the 8+ cards necessary to make Chalice not suck.

    The second, and final, reason I don't like Chalice is because it really doesn't help any of the matchups you'd want help in. Yes, it makes Threshold slightly better, but Threshold is already good. Great no, but even with Chalice it still isn't all that much better precisely because of the lack of support I mentioned in my first reason. Chalice then goes on to suck against Goblins and Landstill, which basically leaves me questioning what you do want Chalice against. Combo? Sure, but it isn't enough on it's own (see a trend) there, and realistically you'll be losing to most Storm Combo with or without Chalice anyway.
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  12. #52

    Re: [Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)

    I'd like to point out some errors from the opening post.
    Brainstorm is not an auto-include in every single deck playing blue.
    In non-Chalice/Trinisphere decks it is.

    Zvi was (and probably still is) one of the all-time great Magic players and deck designers. Brainstorm was quite legal in Standard at the time he put that build together, so why didn’t he include it? For exactly the same reasons I didn’t. It doesn’t do enough without the presence of shuffle effects or a much higher need for early game card selection to warrant its slots.
    This was all before fetchlands existed. Adding 5-8 fetchlands and 4 Brainstorms will improve the consistency of your deck.

    Intuition for AK requires 5 mana to net 1 card.
    It nets 2 cards. It can also draw you 7 cards for 1U + 1U + 2U. The AK + Intuition engine was decent before Extirpate existed.

    You don't mention Flash of Insight which is really strong in this deck. It always provides card advantage, cycles turn 3 if needed, and is at least an Impulse when flashed back. Late game a hard casted Flash can find your win conditions. I suggest you test two of them.

    You say Tarmogoyf is a big problem, I assume Dark Confidant and Tombstalker are problems also. Have you ever thought about splashing white for Swords to Plowshares? You can still play a really solid manabase (4 nonbasics). You can play a lone Back to Basics and a lone Moat, both found with Cunning Wish -> Enlightened Tutor. You don't need Propaganda nor Shackles anymore. This also allows the use of Decree of Justice which is better than Morphling (run 2 DoJ / 1 Morphling). You can now run the superior Engineered Explosives. With a small black splash things get even better. You can board Thoughtseize to combat combo and you have Planar Void to combat Ichorid. The splashes make your bad matchups alot better. This leads to a very solid deck which I have tested for months, I can justify every inclusion:

    4 Spell Snare
    4 Counterspell
    4 Force of Will

    4 Brainstorm
    3 Fact or Fiction
    2 Flash of Insight

    1 Back to Basics
    1 Moat
    3 Engineered Explosives
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    3 Cunning Wish

    1 Morphling
    2 Decree of Justice

    8 Fetch
    10 Island
    1 Plains
    1 Swamp
    2 Tundra
    1 Scrubland
    1 Underground Sea

    Side:
    1 Fact or Fiction
    1 Extirpate
    1 Ray of Distortion
    1 Enlightened Tutor
    1 Diabolic Edict
    4 Planar Void
    3 Thoughtseize
    2 Chainer's Edict
    1 Oblivion Stone

  13. #53
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    Re: [Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)

    lands
    16 Island
    3 Polluted Delta
    3 Flooded Strand

    creatures/kill
    2 Morphling

    enchantments
    3 Counterbalance
    3 Back to Basics

    artifacts
    3 Sensei’s Divining Top
    3 Vedalken Shackles (also a kill)

    Instant
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Counterspell
    4 Rune Snag
    2 Fact or Fiction
    4 Force of Will
    3 Spell Snare/force spike
    3 Impulse

    sideboard
    3 Powder Keg
    3 Pithing Needle
    4 Tormod’s Crypt
    1 Vedalken Shackles
    4 Hydroblast

    Counterbalance:I know counterbalance does'nt look great, but just try it.
    It counters without giving carddisadvantage it's great. (it's posible to counter krosan grip.)

    Sensei's divining top: it's great with counterbalance and the fetchland. it searches for everything. 22 land is enough to play when you play the top because you can't be wasteland en can dig for land.

    spellsnare/force spike: i prefer force sike because it's better late game.

    Rune snag: better than mana leak.


    Back to basics: the main reason to play this deck, it's great agains al good legacy decks.


    shackles: verry good to gain control and also a kill.

    The rest is plain simple.

    the only problems are the earl game.

    for vial and lackey you only have Force of will. but the aggro matchup was crap anyway. (after boarding you have pyroblast, powder keg and pithing needle.

  14. #54
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    Re: [Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)

    Quote Originally Posted by Proz0r View Post
    I'd like to point out some errors from the opening post.

    In non-Chalice/Trinisphere decks it is.


    This was all before fetchlands existed. Adding 5-8 fetchlands and 4 Brainstorms will improve the consistency of your deck.
    Really? Why not say why instead of just claiming it to be a fact? It really does piss me off when people just come in and attempt to claim something as fact without providing any reasoning behind it. Especially considering you're wrong in this case. Adding Brainstorm to my build does not improve the consistency of the deck. In fact, it reduces it because to fit Brainstorm you have to knock down the number of cards like B2B, Keg, etc, that you can include. You could ostensibly reduce the number of lands instead, but that would be an even bigger mistake because this deck absolutely needs 23+ lands, even with Brainstorm. Doks build can get away with less because he has Impulse in addition to Brainstorm.

    Yes, Brainstorm is very strong with fetchlands, no one is disputing that. What I am disputing is that it's the wrong kind of strength for my build. I have no need of a cantrip that reduces room for the cards that make my build so strong in the first place. Having Propaganda, B2B, and Keg be 4 ofs is precisely why the permanent-oriented build has better Threshold and Goblins matchups than any other MUC build out there. And yes, I realize Brainstorm can dig for the aformentioned cards, but at what cost? You've already reduced the number of them you can actually find, on top of adding a whole set of other vulnerabilities by adding fetchlands, and thus defeated the purpose of adding Brainstorm in the first place.

    As an aside, if I felt Engineered Explosives was stronger than Powder Keg I'd probably just suck it up and run Fetchlands and Brainstorm. However, because I don't, I don't think Brainstorm is worth it in permanent oriented MUC. Obviously you disagree with me, but considering you've literally given me no reasons to back up your disagreement other than just blanket claims, I'm not particularly inclined to pay your arguments any heed.

    And that's not even getting into how terrible Flash of Insight is, or how bad your Uw build is.

    Flash of Insight sucks. Seriously, it costs a whopping five mana before it becomes even remotely serviceable, and for that much mana I'd rather just play Tidings. Yes you can flash it back, but to do that you have to have either completely wasted a card by using it for 1 or something, or you've invested 5+ mana to make it slightly less terrible. Honestly, six mana for an impulse? Thanks but no thanks.

    I never said Tarmogoyf was a problem, I said it was a threat out of Threshold. There's a difference. Tarmogoyf is not a problem at all, considering both Powder Keg and Vedalken Shackles deal with it quite easily. Same thing applies to Dark Confidant. Tombstalker is obviously not dying to Keg anytime soon, but it can be stolen with Shackles and is much more easily stopped by counterspells due to its heavier required investment.

    Next, that Uwb build is awful. It isn't MUC anymore, it's bad Uwb control. On top of the fact that it doesn't belong in this thread, it's also weak against two of the three major decks in the format (by comparison, my Brainstormless MUC is far better against both Goblins and Landstill). You'll never beat Goblins with that build. They will run you over in the mid-game every single time. You have a much more vulnerable mana-base, little to no mass removal (EE is not nearly enough), and a "trump" card in Moat that Goblins will never let you play precisely because of how much weaker your manabase is. You can't beat Goblins with 1 for 1s, no matter how good STP is.

    You can't even play control against Landstill because you have no trump. You have a singleton B2B, which isn't enough, and a bunch of other narrow and/or weak cards that a Landstill player can just ignore. And once again, your manabase is much more vulnerable to Wasteland recursion, which simply hands the Landstill player another advantage that normal MUC doesn't give them. Yes, splashing two colors gives you more options, but at the cost of giving away everything that makes MUC good in the first place.

    And seriously people, there is a reason I spent so much time talking about how much Counterbalance/Top doesn't belong in MUC in the opening post. Namely because it doesn't. As far as I know, and I know a lot, no MUC build with Counterbalance has ever made Top 8 in a major Legacy tournament. There is a reason for that! Because Balance/Top is awful in MUC! The reasons for which are explained quite thoroughly in the opening post.
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  15. #55
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    Re: [Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)

    Kadaj already pointed the most stuff out, so I'll be brief:

    Quote Originally Posted by Proz0r View Post
    I'd like to point out some errors from the opening post.

    In non-Chalice/Trinisphere decks it is.
    By what token? Fetchlands open you up to [c]Stifle[/c] which makes your match-up against Tempo Thresh much worse and that's one match-up you don't want to weaken. Further, fetchlands thin your deck of lands (in a deck that wants to hit all its landdrops) and deal damage to you. In return, they allow you to play Brainstorm. That's quite the price to pay.

    As if that isn't enough an incentive, you should remember that the deck is built to be exceedingly redundant, so Brainstorm's effect isn't even all that great. You should be drawing real cards, not filtering. You could play Brainstorm and the build would be quite decent (as Doks proves), but fact is that there're many reasons not to play it and it is the correct call in appropriate versions too. It's most important when you don't want to give away any ground vs. Threshold (which is very important, since Threshold is the #1 deck in the format; opening yourself up to their tempo plan quite risky).

    Quote Originally Posted by Proz0r View Post
    This was all before fetchlands existed. Adding 5-8 fetchlands and 4 Brainstorms will improve the consistency of your deck.
    It will also open you up to all the mentioned issues, while not relevantly improving your draws.

    Quote Originally Posted by Proz0r View Post
    It nets 2 cards. It can also draw you 7 cards for 1U + 1U + 2U. The AK + Intuition engine was decent before Extirpate existed.

    You don't mention Flash of Insight which is really strong in this deck. It always provides card advantage, cycles turn 3 if needed, and is at least an Impulse when flashed back. Late game a hard casted Flash can find your win conditions. I suggest you test two of them.
    Yes, it's decent but instead you could just be drawing real cards with no regards to graveyard, less mana per card paid and so on. Decent =/= good. You shouldn't play every Instant that generates card advantage just because they're instants and generate card advantage - you should play the best instants that generate card advantage. That means Fact or Fiction. The secondary draw shouldn't probably be Instant since the other Instants aren't in the same world mana efficiency, digging and speedwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Proz0r View Post
    You say Tarmogoyf is a big problem, I assume Dark Confidant and Tombstalker are problems also. Have you ever thought about splashing white for Swords to Plowshares? You can still play a really solid manabase (4 nonbasics). You can play a lone Back to Basics and a lone Moat, both found with Cunning Wish -> Enlightened Tutor. You don't need Propaganda nor Shackles anymore. This also allows the use of Decree of Justice which is better than Morphling (run 2 DoJ / 1 Morphling). You can now run the superior Engineered Explosives. With a small black splash things get even better. You can board Thoughtseize to combat combo and you have Planar Void to combat Ichorid. The splashes make your bad matchups alot better. This leads to a very solid deck which I have tested for months, I can justify every inclusion:
    <list>
    That list sacrifices much of MUC's real power in B2B, Vedalken Shackles et co. Further, that list can't use B2B efficiently since it turns off your splash colours almost entirely, among others making Moat uncastable. Further, that list should be Landstill. Seriously, if you wanna splash and play non-basics, you should be playing manlands and building Landstill since that gives you one of the most efficient drawers in the format in Standstill.

    MUC has a very distinct gameplan in mana denial and taxing effects to allow the draw-effects to kick in and take over with Kegs, Shackles or Morphling. That plan really gets thrown to trashcan with splashing so may as well go all the way with an alternative, solid gameplan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas1991 View Post
    Counterbalance:I know counterbalance does'nt look great, but just try it.
    It counters without giving carddisadvantage it's great. (it's posible to counter krosan grip.)
    Do you really think the guy who spent a month writing this just spurts crap out of his mouth? You owe him the benefit of doubt that maybe, just maybe he has tested what he talks about, having thought it to be good at one point, finding out it isn't and is now telling you why. You'd do well to listen to him. Counterbalance looks awesome, but it doesn't work out in practice. If you want to play Counterbalance, play a deck that can put pressure on while keeping the opponent locked under it. Same with Chalice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas1991 View Post
    Sensei's divining top: it's great with counterbalance and the fetchland. it searches for everything. 22 land is enough to play when you play the top because you can't be wasteland en can dig for land.
    You die to Stifle on your fetches. Congratulations, you just screwed up your aggro/control match-up. Oh yeah, you also fucked yourself up against black decks that just blow up your lands; gl finding 3-4 extras. Seriously, 25 is a good number; you need to hit 4 lands spending all your mana on defensive spells on the early turns. That means you need enough lands to draw 4 in a row.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas1991 View Post
    spellsnare/force spike: i prefer force sike because it's better late game.
    Umm...que?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas1991 View Post
    Rune snag: better than mana leak.
    Umm...k...

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas1991 View Post
    for vial and lackey you only have Force of will. but the aggro matchup was crap anyway. (after boarding you have pyroblast, powder keg and pithing needle.
    Except if you, you know, play Propaganda (nice Lackey-dropped army; now go home or pay up!) and Powder Keg (solves Vials nicely, and everything else given time) main along with even some Foils (they look silly to me, but I bet the man knows what he's doing - he's tested the deck since Legacy existed; also, they make sense). 'cause you know, those changes totally weren't made to make Goblins winnable...oh wait!

  16. #56
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    Re: [Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)

    I fail to see why the Storm combo (Non-solidarity that is) matchup is bad. You have 11 counters in your mainboard, of which 7 can be cast on turn 0. You have Powder Keg to clear EtW tokens and you have B2B, which is awesome against FT and TES when dropped at the right moment (after you've thrown a bunch of counters at your opponent preventing him from going off).

    If my metagame doesn't have any Goblins/Burn/Sligh at all, what kind of sideboard would you suggest?
    "Part of me belives that Barrin taught me meditation simply to shut me up."

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  17. #57
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    Re: [Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bahamuth View Post
    I fail to see why the Storm combo (Non-solidarity that is) matchup is bad. You have 11 counters in your mainboard, of which 7 can be cast on turn 0. You have Powder Keg to clear EtW tokens and you have B2B, which is awesome against FT and TES when dropped at the right moment (after you've thrown a bunch of counters at your opponent preventing him from going off).
    Because you have no clock. You only have so many counters, and a good combo player will just sit and wait until they have multiple Chants/Abeyances, and force you to expend all of your countermagic defending against that, before promptly killing you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bahamuth View Post
    If my metagame doesn't have any Goblins/Burn/Sligh at all, what kind of sideboard would you suggest?
    Uh. That's a good question. Probably something to the tune of:

    X4 Tormod's Crypt/Faerie Macabre
    X4 Repeal
    X1 Vedalken Shackles
    X3 Jace Beleren
    X3 Declaration of Naught (I'm not sure about this, but it was decent when I was testing against Loam and the like)
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaiminho View Post
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    u didn't search in Germany
    Quote Originally Posted by Zach Tartell View Post
    I thought this was going to be a link to some Chinese legacy board.

    And I was totally gonna load up on links to bullshit like construction equipment distributors and elephant disenfectants and then run over there and spam the shit out of them for a change.

  18. #58
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    Bahamuth's Avatar
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    Re: [Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadaj View Post
    Because you have no clock. You only have so many counters, and a good combo player will just sit and wait until they have multiple Chants/Abeyances, and force you to expend all of your countermagic defending against that, before promptly killing you.



    Uh. That's a good question. Probably something to the tune of:

    X4 Tormod's Crypt/Faerie Macabre
    X4 Repeal
    X1 Vedalken Shackles
    X3 Jace Beleren
    X3 Declaration of Naught (I'm not sure about this, but it was decent when I was testing against Loam and the like)
    Why is Repeal any good? Against what deck?
    Isn't Crypt much better against Loam than Declaration? Could you define 'and the like'.
    What about the Jace slots if there is also not much control present, but a fair amout of combo and black aggro (and thresh and loam).

    EDIT: Perhaps Stifle would be a good sideboard card against combo. Or Chalice. Or ever Mystic Remora (that's mostly just cool though).
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  19. #59
    Plays whatever whenever, and fails anyway
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    Re: [Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)

    Repeal is a catchall, it's decent against lots of random aggro, midrange, aggro-control, whathaveyou. Declaration of Naught is good against decks that rely on a single set of cards to do their dirtywork. For example, Loam, Enchantress, non-storm combo, etc. If you have little control but lots of aggro-control Divert or Misdirection could be worth a slot to make their disruption play against them.

    Something like, say:

    X4 Faerie Macabre (I like it more than Crypt, but this can be either or)
    X3 Stifle/Repeal (Depends on whether you expect more Combo or aggroish stuff)
    X4 Divert
    X3 Declaration of Naught
    X1 Vedalken Shackles

    Chalice doesn't do enough and Mystic Remora falls into the 'danger of cool things' category. At any rate, building sideboards is something that requires full knowledge of what you want to be aiming at and what kind of percentages you want to achieve against the decks in question. It's really hard to sit here and say "Well, there's not a lot of red, so play X, Y, and Z." when you don't know the specific details of the metagame, what matchups you want to improve, and what you expect to run into trouble against.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaiminho View Post
    Your search - nopurinshing Lich - did not match any documents.
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter_Rotten View Post
    u didn't search in Germany
    Quote Originally Posted by Zach Tartell View Post
    I thought this was going to be a link to some Chinese legacy board.

    And I was totally gonna load up on links to bullshit like construction equipment distributors and elephant disenfectants and then run over there and spam the shit out of them for a change.

  20. #60

    Re: [Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)

    Really? Why not say why instead of just claiming it to be a fact? Adding Brainstorm to my build does not improve the consistency of the deck. In fact, it reduces it because to fit Brainstorm you have to knock down the number of cards like B2B, Keg, etc, that you can include. You could ostensibly reduce the number of lands instead, but that would be an even bigger mistake because this deck absolutely needs 23+ lands, even with Brainstorm. Doks build can get away with less because he has Impulse in addition to Brainstorm. And yes, I realize Brainstorm can dig for the aformentioned cards, but at what cost? You've already reduced the number of them you can actually find, on top of adding a whole set of other vulnerabilities by adding fetchlands, and thus defeated the purpose of adding Brainstorm in the first place.
    If you need proof, please check all top8 decks that run blue and don't run Chalice of the Void. I probably can't come up with better "proof". You can cut one land, then cut 3 other cards. Brainstorm will obviously improve the consistency of any blue non-Chalice deck, finding lands early game, finding FoW early game, shuffling garbage away late game. It will find your better cards in the most efficient way. You can cut the worst cards. I assume you know what the worst 3 cards in your deck are if you have been playing your deck for such a long time.

    As an aside, if I felt Engineered Explosives was stronger than Powder Keg I'd probably just suck it up and run Fetchlands and Brainstorm. However, because I don't, I don't think Brainstorm is worth it in permanent oriented MUC. Obviously you disagree with me, but considering you've literally given me no reasons to back up your disagreement other than just blanket claims, I'm not particularly inclined to pay your arguments any heed.
    I have found EE to be infinately better because it will blow up the permanent(s) immediately. A minor upside is that it can destroy enchantments (Deed). Powder Keg is probably better in the early game though. I think this is just personal preference.

    And that's not even getting into how terrible Flash of Insight is, or how bad your Uw build is. Flash of Insight sucks. Seriously, it costs a whopping five mana before it becomes even remotely serviceable, and for that much mana I'd rather just play Tidings. Yes you can flash it back, but to do that you have to have either completely wasted a card by using it for 1 or something, or you've invested 5+ mana to make it slightly less terrible. Honestly, six mana for an impulse? Thanks but no thanks.
    Please do not make claims about the stength of my deck before you have tested it. If you let Flash sit in your hand until turn 5, you have made a horrible play and don't play the deck correctly. The correct play would be to cycle it turn 3. It is basically 2U + 1U for an Impulse + cantrip (early game). Late game this card is nuts, which is why I included it. It will help me find my kill condition and make a clock. In addition it combo's OK with FoF and Cunning Wish.
    Next, that Uwb build is awful. It isn't MUC anymore, it's bad Uwb control. On top of the fact that it doesn't belong in this thread, it's also weak against two of the three major decks in the format (by comparison, my Brainstormless MUC is far better against both Goblins and Landstill). You'll never beat Goblins with that build. They will run you over in the mid-game every single time. You have a much more vulnerable mana-base, little to no mass removal (EE is not nearly enough), and a "trump" card in Moat that Goblins will never let you play precisely because of how much weaker your manabase is. You can't beat Goblins with 1 for 1s, no matter how good STP is.
    Against Goblins my game 1 is OK due to Moat. The manabase is solid because I play only 4 nonbasics. If Goblins were a contender, you could easily add 4 Plague to the sideboard.
    You can't even play control against Landstill because you have no trump. You have a singleton B2B, which isn't enough, and a bunch of other narrow and/or weak cards that a Landstill player can just ignore. And once again, your manabase is much more vulnerable to Wasteland recursion, which simply hands the Landstill player another advantage that normal MUC doesn't give them.
    Again, have you tested it? My landstill matchup is favorable. The biggest reason for this is that I have a draw engine, while they have Ideas Unbounds. Wasteland recursion against 4 nonbasic lands? Nice play sir. In addition, Brainstorm will fetch nonbasics away if need be.
    Yes, splashing two colors gives you more options, but at the cost of giving away everything that makes MUC good in the first place.
    Is MUC good? Not in my opinion, which is why I made these splashes. Your claims of my list being bad are unfounded because you did not test it. You also clearly did not even read the whole decklist before posting. I hope you will read my post and list carefully before replying again. You disappoint me.
    By what token? Fetchlands open you up to [c]Stifle[/c] which makes your match-up against Tempo Thresh much worse and that's one match-up you don't want to weaken. Further, fetchlands thin your deck of lands (in a deck that wants to hit all its landdrops) and deal damage to you. In return, they allow you to play Brainstorm. That's quite the price to pay.

    As if that isn't enough an incentive, you should remember that the deck is built to be exceedingly redundant, so Brainstorm's effect isn't even all that great. You should be drawing real cards, not filtering. You could play Brainstorm and the build would be quite decent (as Doks proves), but fact is that there're many reasons not to play it and it is the correct call in appropriate versions too. It's most important when you don't want to give away any ground vs. Threshold (which is very important, since Threshold is the #1 deck in the format; opening yourself up to their tempo plan quite risky). It will also open you up to all the mentioned issues, while not relevantly improving your draws.
    If Stifle is the only notable reason not to play Fetchlands, then you should definately play them. You can often play around Stifle also. Brainstorm doesn't relevantly improve your draws? Of course it does, it is the reason to play the card. I am sure most people that play Brainstorm will agree with me here.
    Yes, it's decent but instead you could just be drawing real cards with no regards to graveyard, less mana per card paid and so on. Decent =/= good. You shouldn't play every Instant that generates card advantage just because they're instants and generate card advantage - you should play the best instants that generate card advantage. That means Fact or Fiction. The secondary draw shouldn't probably be Instant since the other Instants aren't in the same world mana efficiency, digging and speedwise.
    Flash is decent from turn 3 when you can cycle it. After that, it gets totally nuts. I should play the best instants that generate card advantage, which means playing FoF, Flash and (virtual CA) Brainstorm.

    I have tested Ancestral Visions. Granted it is nuts when you suspend it turn 1. From turn 4 it gets pretty bad, which is the reason why I don't play it.
    That list sacrifices much of MUC's real power in B2B, Vedalken Shackles et co. Further, that list can't use B2B efficiently since it turns off your splash colours almost entirely, among others making Moat uncastable. Further, that list should be Landstill. Seriously, if you wanna splash and play non-basics, you should be playing manlands and building Landstill since that gives you one of the most efficient drawers in the format in Standstill.

    MUC has a very distinct gameplan in mana denial and taxing effects to allow the draw-effects to kick in and take over with Kegs, Shackles or Morphling. That plan really gets thrown to trashcan with splashing so may as well go all the way with an alternative, solid gameplan.
    Vedalken Shackles is weak in my opinion (otherwise I would play it), I prefer Moat. I will gladly take one possible dead card (Moat) when my opponents lands don't untap anymore, or tap a nonbasic to cast it. I will win anyway if my opponent has tapped his nonbasic lands and B2B hits.

    Indeed your MUC lists have a very distinct game plan. I think the game plan is weak and can be improved, that's why I posted my list. Is my game plan of better than the MUC game plan? In my opinion, yes. How can you disagree if you have not tested the list?

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