Looks cool, but in order to use CB/top to it's full effectiveness, you need fetches.
feefox: each card in hand!!!!
ridicolous
only fortune
What do you do when facing a T1 Mongoose? Only out would be FoW that could be countered by the opponent's FoW or Daze. So?Originally Posted by scrow213
The CC1 Slot with only 8 cards is missing at least 2-4 more I think.
You don't have a real card drawing engine (TT alone is not solid enough and I still can't imagine any reason for Standstill in this specific list). Even with CB/Top creating virtual card advantage you can't only rely on it.
This is the type of feedback I am looking for. I am not using CB for tempo. I am using it so I can save counters for when CB misses. This, in theory, will make the countermagic last much longer. Standstill was a bad play on my part, and I want to fit Brainstorm in that CMC1 slot, but how would you build the deck?
And as for Shoal, it fits the deck well. You are already playing a deck heavily invested in the low-mana end of the curve, so Shoal will, most of the time, be another Force of Will.
T1 Mongoose is one of the reasons i like the fetchland version more than the "american style" caus u can drop explosives for 1 quicker than using the disk to handle mongoose, its bad to waste a force of will to a mongoose anyway
shoal is nice but do u really have slots for it at least in the maindeck?
This is my list currently. It's pretty solid and testing has been good against Imperial Painter, Threshold, Goblins. Combo is a little bad since the deck has no Dazes/Stifles but Powder Keg does its job sometimes.
MUCart (perm-based MUC)
Lands: 24
2 Academy Ruins
22 Island
Counterspells: 12
4 Spell Snare
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
Board control: 9
3 Powder Keg
2 Oblivion Stone
4 Vedalken Shackles
Draw/Tutors:12
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Impulse
2 Intuition
4 Fact of Fiction
Win condition: 3
2 Morphling
1 Call the Skybreaker
I'm a big fan of Call the Skybreaker and some graveyard recursion. The deck doesn't need the recursion, but it gives it a backup plan. I usually hope to play well to ignore the recursion. Intuition is strong in getting CtS, artifacts + Ruins. I'm not sure about Impulse, but it works great with SDT to "shuffle" away the top 3 cards. Fact or Fiction is also great with SDT. Even with 24 lands, I run into occasion where I don't hit 3mana consistently. I tried many ways to fix it, but I think SDT, Impulse are great early plays if you're not countering anything. SDT + free U for spell snare on turn 2 on the play is easily the most tight and best play this deck can make.
I'm also a bigger fan of Oblivion Stone than Disk. Stone is more expensive to activate on the turn (8mana) but when the need arises, it does its job. Disk and Stone both have the same problem of not activating on the same turn early game, but I think that Stone gives more flexibility. Stone also comes down a turn early and by playing it, you can force your opponents to play differently, while you sit there building mana and deciding when to activate it. Usually, I activate at the end of opponent's turn after he's played spells despite taking some damage from creatures, so as to free my mana open for counters on his 2nd main phase and free mana for my turn later.
I prefer Morphling over to Rainbow Efreet. Efreet is a 6-7 turn clock, compared to a 4-turn clock. MUC really needs a fast win condition. I don't like Skybreaker sometimes since it's so late in the game, but there are situations where you absolutely need the recursive beater. Morphling has been amazing all the time he lands in play with 6 mana open. He can't kill Goyfs, but with enough mana, he can be a huge wall after beating, which provides good late game tempo (lol tempo in MUC is laughable).
I love MUC, and I've been testing out many lists. This is my favorite so far. Does well in a meta of 1-2cc heavy permanents (Bob, Goyf, Dreadnought, Dredge/Warren tokens, Mishra Factories, Chalice/EE).
I have some questions. To improve the goblins/swarm aggro/Nimble Mongoose matchup, I'm tempted to change the list into:
MUCart (perm-based MUC)
Lands: 24
1 Academy Ruins
19 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
Counterspells: 12
4 Spell Snare
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
Board control: 9
3 Powder Keg
1 Oblivion Stone
4 Vedalken Shackles
Draw/Tutors:11
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Impulse
2 Intuition
4 Fact of Fiction
Win condition: 4
2 Morphling
1 Call the Skybreaker
1 Crucible of Worlds
I'm not sure which list is better. The first list is more resilient to Wastes and has the chance to go stupid with Back to Basics in the sideboard. The second does much better against swarm aggro, which is a problem for MUC. I guess we solve the swarm aggro using Propagandas, but Factories + Crucible provide another source of win condition. I dislike the second one since hitting UU on turn 2 can be problematic at times. But since this is perm-based MUC, we have other options instead of UU on turn 2 for counterspells.
What about force spike? In the control matchup it may be weak. But I think it’s good against aggro.
I love Force Spike, however, I wanted to make the deck absolutely consistent with respect to hitting lands. I want to reach 5 lands asap for Shackles + activation on the same turn, or Oblivion Stone or Fact or Fiction with Daze protection, followed by Morphling. Therefore I was running 3 Impulse instead of 3 Force Spike.
Before then, Force Spike was definitely in the MD for me, but since I'm playing perm-based MUC, countering everything isn't that relevant, rather, establishing board position is key in perm-based MUC, so I thought better consistency with Landdrop and draws into the mid-game was more crucial than countering turn 1 plays.
Force Spike still doesn't solve the turn 1 Lackey/Vial problem. BEB/Hydroblast solves Lackey, but Vial is still a problem. I can only hope for Powder Keg in my hand when that happens, and take 1-2 creatures that vial churns out. Force Spike becomes exponentially weak in the mid-late game while Impulse still allows you to dig for answers (shackles, Stone, Kegs, Morphlings)
Against combo, I'm testing 3 Disrupt, 4 Chalice in the Sideboard. My current Sideboard is:
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Disrupt
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Hydroblast
2 Back to Basics
2 Sower of Temptation
...so what are the best win-options for MUC (permanent-based) nowadays???
I think a minimum of 1 Morphling is required, but what are the other slots, if you play 3 Shackles, and have 3 (or 4) winning slots.
Can you give me some Pros and Cons about:
Morphling
Rainbow Efreet
Call the Skybreaker
Jace Beleren
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Meloku, the Clouded Mirror
Guile
I don't know if Rainbow Efreet is outdated, and how good CtS really is, so I ask the guys who have more experience about MUC as me...
Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells
:16:- (See, now Erratic Explosion's a deck)
Legendary Creature - Horror
Haste, Hexproof, Double Strike, Trample
Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells is indestructible.
Permanents you control can't be sacrificed or copied.
Whenever Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells attacks, defending player gets liver cancer (This effect doesn't end at end of turn.)
13/13
For perm-based MUC I think
1 Morphling (no-brainer ;) )
1 Call the Skybreaker / Efreet (both more or less "immune" to Mass Removal)
1 Jace / Meloku (either an extra draw or a token creator that chumps the single creatures that slip through Propaganda / B2B lock)
could be a good compilation as you have an out for most of the bad situations MUC can still have in the later game.
I would never drop CtS. Not having to leave mana open for counters and recovering from mass removal and (more frequently) discard effects make 'nilla 5/5s nothing to laugh at. Add to it that they swing for 5 without requiring any additional mana ever again, (more mana for counters and draw) and I just may like the card more than morphling. If only that damn goyf hadn''t made MD relics popular. I'd go with a 1/1/1 split between morphling/CtS/(personally rainbow efreet)
Morphling:
pro: Its a 4 turn clock, protects itself against lots of removal, and can pull double duty and defend.
con: Using Morphling to its full potential requires having plenty of mana available every turn.
Rainbow Efreet:
pro: Its really hard to get rid of the stupid thing, allowing you to save more counters for their threats and less for protecting yours. At 4 mana its cheap as far as MUC threats go.
con: Its really slow, requiring two more turns than the other threats. Its far worse in combat than most of the other options.
Call the Skybreaker:
pro: A large, recastable threat. Can really help push through a battle of attrition. Since you can cast more, saving counters for protection is less vital (except for graveyard hate of course).
con: Seven mana is a lot to ask for in a deck with no real acceleration. Legacy is a pretty explosive format and a counter wall can't hold decks back forever. To use the recursive ability requires even more lands.
Jace Beleren: I mainly consider this a draw spell with a the optional hail mary plan if all else fails. Definitely not something I'd rely on to win.
Oona:
pro: A big dude that can either speed up the kill or slow an opposing attack.
con: Using the token creating ability is expensive and unreliable. It will usually cost 1.5 to 2 mana to create each token, plus the one extra. If you have luck me, your bound to fail and make few tokens; resulting in no net turn increase in kill speed, or failing to create the appropriate number of chump blockers to prevent death.
Meluko:
pro: Similar to benefits as Oona, just more predictable token generation at the expense of size. Better able to plan an all in rush kill, or slow play plan.
con: Returning lands is a hefty price for a token. I've found Meluko to be quite the skill testing card (I guess this isn't really a con so to speak). Over committing leaves you open to getting wrecked, under commitment gives your opponent more time than they deserve. With proper play, Meluko is simply a wrecking ball.
Guile: Its a fun card with a cute ability, but nothing I'd seriously consider. I like creatures that can either protect themselves or slow the opponent down in a predictable way.
Of the listed threats, my favorites are definitely Morphling and Meluko. To me they just have the highest utility for a reasonable casting cost. Anything that costs more than 5 mana should just win the game immediately and bring me a sandwich while it does it; Oona, Guile, Call the Skybreaker don't do this. Rainbow Efreet and Jace are just too slow I think (though using Jace in a draw slot is a different question).
@fractal, nice analysis, though I think you should take into account what kind of removal each option dies to, as that is the biggest issue for a deck like MUC that is looking for a win-con. Let's assume that you can get to the late game and hit a reasonable amount of land drops, if this isn't the case either the deck has failed you (poor draws) or you have failed with it (poor play/matchup). In this situation, mana is often a less relevant factor when choosing a win-con. In my experience, permanent (B2B) based MUC strategies can usually effectively hamper an opponent in the mid to late game, but as you go deeper and deeper into the late game the chances of your opponent recovering/winning increase (i.e. Krosan Fucking Grip). Therefore, once you've achieved a favorable board position you're looking to end the game ASAP.
This requires your beater/win-con to have 2 characteristics: the ability to end the game in short order (this usually means swinging for 5+ each turn, preferably with evasion) and the ability to win through your opponent's obstacles (e.g. removal, blockers). Of the cards mentioned above, I've found the best ways to do this are with Morphling or Call the Skybreaker. Morphling protects itself from targeted removal, but packs it in to mass removal and counterspells. Call the Skybreaker is more resilient and can occasionally win the game faster, but requires a larger initial mana-investment. Another drawback is that Call the Skybreaker is susceptible to Control Magic effects that have been popularized by the GP (of course, as MUC players, we've known the strength of Shackles/Sower for a while now). Shackles can be a real hassle if you're trying to get there with CtS, as you'll probably need to retrace twice each time to swing for 5. For these reasons, I play a 2 Morphling/1 CtS split, as I’ve found targeted removal/Control Magic effects to be at least twice as prevalent as mass removal.
fractal explained why cards like Oona and Guile are sub-optimal but I’d like to weigh in on Meloku. The fact that this card dies to targeted removal is absolutely terrible. When you play Meloku, those Swords to Plowshares in your opponent’s hand just became relevant: that’s bad news. For my money, this drawback is not worth the ability to end the game a turn earlier than CtS/Morphling, especially when you consider the additional drawback of returning lands to your hand to make your army. I’d always rather tap lands to swing for 5 with Morphling than return lands to swing for 6+ with Meloku/tokens. The argument that Meloku comes down earlier than CtS does not work for me either. If you’re playing Meloku on turn 5 you’re probably in a losing position. Then if you’re returning 2 of your 6 lands next turn to put your opponent on a 4-5 turn clock, you’re in even worse shape. I’d rather wait 2 turns and go for CtS/Morphling turn 7 or later, ignore targeted removal, keep my lands on the table, and probably win in 4 turns.
On a completely unrelated note, how have permanent-based MUC players been faring against Counterbalance? Obviously we can ignore it most of the time, but I still find it to be a must-counter pain-in-the-ass for the following reasons: 1) With CB/Top on the table, MUC has a VERY difficult time winning counter wars and 2) more and more decks can flip for 3 nowadays. MUC’s curve is varied enough where it’s very possible the win through CB/Top, but it’s also very possible to straight-up lose to it because our big bombs (Shackles/B2B) cost 3. Currently, my best answer out of the sideboard is Pithing Needle. Any other suggestions?
Well observed.
I don't get it when perm-based players say they don't fear balance with their only 8-10 counters as the only out to it (bloody Keg unfortunately doesn't touch CB...) for you listed reasons.
Most of them don't even run some kind of bounce (Repeal, Cryptic Command, even Wipe Away would do the trick at CC>2!) and are vulnerable to a single CC3 card on top of the opponent's library...
Even when playing stack-oriented MUC (the one that I still prefer) I usually try to counter a CB or get rid of it with EE@2 for 3 or even 4 ASAP because
a) It disrupts my draw suit heavily (BS, Impulse / AK, TT, sometimes even TfK or FoF!)
b) It shuts down a lot of my countermagic (CS, Spell Snare, even FoW sometimes!)
c) It can hit my rare 3CC bombs (Shackles(!), B2B)
d) It might even hit your Win-Condition (with FoW on top for Morphling / Meloku or Natural Order for Efreet)
The above list is rated from important to less important, but at least stack-MUC has an out for the lock.
Perm-based MUC could / should add some higher casting cost overall solutions (C. Command can be very nice when you have won several turns by having locked your opp down with B2B+Propaganda I imagine or go and try Wipe Away as that should have the highest chance of the CC3 solutions of bouncing CB) because I don't think these players want to add EE+Fetches.
If you run CtS, swords to plowshares becomes a relevant point, too. Assuming your opponent has two swords to plowshares in his hand, it takes 4 turns until you can put your opponent under pressure. So I consider running 3morphling. However, in the late game I tend to be mana flooded and CtS can make use of those lands.
So I was really working with this for the Goyfless tournament, but I feel it is pretty fun (and of course good) so I thought posting it would help me out and maybe offer up some ideas.
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
14 Island
2 Academy Ruins
4 Mox Diamond
1 Morphling
1 Call the Skybreak
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
2 Mana Leak
2 Cryptic Command
4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Fact or Fiction
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Vedalken Shackles
3 Engineered Explosives
SB
Negates, more finishers, Plagues, Smothers, Repeals, etc
So I feel Chalice is pretty damn strong in this deck. No one drops makes it completely one sided which is nice because it shuts off Spell Snare, Swords to Plowshares, Dark Ritual, Brainstorm, Ponder, Top, Stifle, Dreadnought, Thoughtseize, Aether Vial, etc. It also helps with combo.
With Chalice, accel to get it out earlier is really needed. I am on the fence on how to go about it. Mox Diamond is definitely stronger of the two, getting me any color I want, not making me get rid of goods, etc. However, it makes me run more lands. This isn't horrible because getting lands is awesome, but it does eat up two slots since with Chrome Mox, I would run 4 Mox and 22 Land. Still needs testing but I am leaning towards Diamond since it makes the mana base a lot more stable.
The color splash is mostly for EE but realizing that making the splash slightly bigger doesn't hurt too bad, I thought black was the best way to take it. It offers Engineered Plague which makes the Goblins MU pretty decent, targetted removal in Smother, mass removal in Damnation, and a decent card in Tombstalker. I am still working with the board since there are a few ways to go with it. However, I really want Smother in the main.
Thoughts?
*bump*
If you already do splash then I would recommend running some removal you mentioned MB.
Another issue:
Many people suggested Cunning Wish or several other utility options like Merchant Scroll and the like, but has anyone thought of Mystical Tutor yet?
I'm serious!
.
.
.
I admit, the build has to be prepared for a more Mystical Tutor use, but are these changes that heavy?
Just a little core of such a build from the top off my head:
23-24 Land
1-2 Morphlings
1 Cts
10-14 Counters
8-12 Draw'n'Search (including Accumulated Knowledge and 4x FoF)
8-14 Removal and 3CC Bombs (including 1-2 copies of bounce)
1-2 Mystical Tutor
Sure, it does create card disadvantage, a thing MUC really hates, but that's what Accumulated Knowledge and FoF are for.
In exchange you get increased chances of finding what you really need in certain situations for the cost of U.
You have established control and need to win soon? Go and grab CtS.
Your opponent played a nasty high CC bomb you can't use Keg / EE for? Go and get you a copy of bounce.
You need a powerful draw now in form of the 3rd / 4th AK? Go, get that one.
Just a vague idea for now, but I'll probably go and try out.
Just out of curiosity: What's the general attitude towards Meditate in this deck as a 3 or 4 of? I'm about to make us of it as it seems very promosing
Talking about permanent based MUC, of course.
The seven cardinal sins of Legacy:
1. Discuss the unbanning ofLand TaxEarthcraft.
2. Argue that banning Force of Will would make the format healthier.
3. Play Brainstorm without Fetchlands.
4. Stifle Standstill.
5. Think that Gaea's Blessing will make you Solidarity-proof.
6. Pass priority after playing Infernal Tutor.
7. Fail to playtest against Nourishing Lich (coZ iT wIlL gEt U!).
@ Julian23
When searching this thread, you'll find there are 14 posts including the word Meditate (besides yours). You can gather the general attitude from there.What's the general attitude towards Meditate in this deck as a 3 or 4 of?
Meditate pales in comparison to our other options. Without a way to curb the drawback (like Solidarity), the card just isn't viable.
peace,
4eak
Meditate goes against the grain of the archetype's core strategy as far milking as much possible advatage out of your opponent as possible and capitalizing on their errors as often as possible. Meditate gives them a timewalk for four cards. People go into great detail about how and why the card sucks, but at the heart of it all is you giving your opponent two turns to set things up and a good chance that you will effectively be giving them an extra card for a cantrip because you will be using at least one normal counter and more likely than not an FoW to halt their mischief. Terrible.
For one more mana, you could be playing a FoF and digging five deep or you could be playing ancestral visions, which I find to be an awesome card all around. I'd even play concentrate, whispers or even opportunity over meditate.
-It could be about four of anything and I would agree.
I just got knocked out of the top 8 in the goyfless tourny running MUC.
My list:
// Lands
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
23 [ST] Island (4)
// Creatures
1 [VI] Rainbow Efreet
2 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
// Spells
1 [LRW] Cryptic Command
3 [REW] Powder Keg
3 [US] Back to Basics
4 [DLM] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [EVE] Call the Skybreaker
3 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [FNM] Fact or Fiction
4 [TSP] Think Twice
3 [SH] Mana Leak
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [R] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [CNF] Telemin Performance
SB: 4 [IN] Disrupt
Report is as follows (I apologize to any of my opponents if I mess some match details up, as it has been a long tournement.)
Round 1 vs Eldritch Alien playing The Mighty Quinn
Game 1: I keep a hand with Shackles, Force, Think Twice, Rainbow Efreet and some lands. I end up pitching Rainbow to stop an early painter combo. By midgame, I have the board pretty much locked down, but he has a full fist of cards to stop any shenanigans. I dig and dig, but both sowers and the Call are in my last 5 cards. I get decked.
Game 2: Brought in disrupt, telemin, and 2 relic. Take out 2 b2b, 1 think twice, 1 FoF, 1 shackles, 3 keg. I got lucky on this after my dumb sideboarding. He turn 3 chants me, which gets disrupted. Turn 4 he chants again and drops stick with abeyance on it. I play my only remaing b2b with 2 of his lands being sheets, and cryptic command the scepter when he uses it my next turn. Rainbow efreet comes down and goes to town.
Game 3: I bring back in kegs and take out 1 relic 2 disrupts. Long match, with lots of back and forth, but I take two dragons with telemin, and eventually get there with efreet.
1-0, 2-1 games
Round 2 vs Mujadaddy playing Pox/MBC
This was rough as MWS kept taking dumps on our games, probably took 14 games to get our 3 in.
Game 1: I just get a nutty hand and draw against him, shackling any creature he plays and countering all his removal.
Game 2: Brought in disrupts, telemins, and relics for b2b, command, 1 sower, 1 fof, and 1 think twice. He shreds my hand and board early with multiple hymns and small poxes. Tombstalker teaches me a lesson about big creatures as I stare at 3 islands and a shackles on my board.
Game 3: He gets some early pressure with recurring necroplasms, and I hold him off with shackles and efreet. Eventually, I rip a necroplasm of my own with telemin and win with a slight damage advantage with repeated instances of Elemental, go.
2-0, 4-2 games
Round 3 vs Deadlock playing either dreadstill...I think.
Game 1: He beats me down early with a bob, but I take it away with shackles and land an Efreet. My own force of wills turn against me knocking me to 2 and I have to keep giving the bob back, but the damage is done, and he can't recover before my beater gets there.
Game 2: Bring in chalices, take out command, 1 think twice, 1 fof.
This game was just rough, as he had to mull hard, then I shackles one bob and sowered another. When MUC is allowed to draw 3 cards a turn, the game goes sour fast.
3-0, 6-2 games
Round 4 vs Melman playing Deep Blue
Game 1: I get a recurring powder keg online, followed by shackles destroying his mana and taking his threats.
Game 2: From what I saw in game 1 I thought I was playing affinity, so no boarding on my side. I mull to five. He forces through a Master of Etherium and 2 (or maybe 3) myr enforcers in one turn. I savagely rip an island off the top of my deck and enter my scoop phase.
Game 3: Long drawn out game. I land an early B2B, and he forces through an Esperzoa letting him slowly untap his artifact lands. He gets a Master of Etherium down next turn and hurts me hard. I force a shackles into play and take the Esperzoa, but my keg gets countered and I have to keep giving the Zoa back. We end up stalled with me drawing tons of counter magic and him drawing a bunch of other other threats. Finally, I get a second shackles down and he ends up with Esperzoa in his hand every turn. Master slowly pokes him to death until I find Call the Skybreaker.
4-0, 8-3 games
Round 5 vs 4eak, ID
4-0-1
Round 6 vs Van Phanel ID
4-0-2
My viscious curbstomping at the hands of pi4meterftw will be editted in after he posts his list.
Props:
-Great games against some great opponents
-Telemin Performance, seriously, that card does bad things to people.
-Aggro Zombies for running the thing and Magic Fanatic stepping up in the top 8
-Tarmowhat?
Slops:
-Relic for still hanging out in my sideboard. Wished it was propaganda or something at least once.
-Me for sideboarding like a fool
-MWS for dropping connections
-The lack of tarmogoyf. It is by far my most common way to win when playing MUC.
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