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Thread: [Deck] Astral Slide vs. Legacy, take 78

  1. #1

    [Deck] Astral Slide vs. Legacy, take 78

    Update RIP: 2/2/2018

    The deck has been dead for awhile, just figured I'd update this thread with a final post. Slide had a good run in the Tier 2 league, but ultimately it never recovered from the blow removing damage from the stack dealt it. The deck also suffered from never getting spells or creatures printed for it during the era of OP critters OR the era of OP spells. As a result the large engine that comprises the heart of the deck is simply too expensive to keep up with the tempo generated by modern Legacy decks.

    Another way to put it is the deck requires Astral Slide, which has the same mana cost as Show and Tell, but doesn't win the game instantly and isn't blue, to function, plus another 20 or so cycling cards that are at best mediocre, and lots of mana, leaving you around 10-15ish slots to play actually good Legacy power staples. The engine is not good enough to overcome that, especially with DRS providing 60% of the format exactly enough maindeck hate to turn off said engine, and Leovold just basically LOLing at your entire deck concept. Oh, and you also auto-lose to pretty much any combo too, so there's that for a bonus.

    Siege Rhino is cool and all, but he's not enough to overcome all of this on his own.

    So good bye funnest deck ever and two times world champion, it's been a blast and at least we'll always have the memories.



    ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    Update 6/10/2016

    I think this deck, or a Legacy deck that includes Astral Slide anyways, might finally be viable again - see my post on page 14 for an explanation.

    Updated 11/28/2010

    Astral Slide



    Table of Contents
    1) History and Origins
    2) Stereotypes
    3) The Core
    4) Colors
    5) Disruption
    6) Most Recent Additions
    7) Lists
    8) Playing the Deck
    9) Matchups


    History and Origins

    Astral Slide decks first appeared during Onslaught block constructed. These decks were Red/White board control decks that specialized in killing lots and lots of goblins through the use of board sweepers and Lightning Rift. These decks then moved into standard where they enjoyed varying degrees of success until the printing of Eternal Witness in Fifth Dawn. Largely dropping Red, the new Witness/Slide decks were extremely strong, propelling Julien Nujiten to a Worlds victory in 2004. A few years later, the archetype again went undefeated at worlds during the Extended portion of the event.

    Stereotypes

    Many players are still most familiar with Astral Slide decks as Red/White board control machines that focused more on Lightning Rift than on Astral Slide. In a way, the deck is a victim of its own success. Cycling decks have most commonly been tournament forces when they were organized as red/white board control decks. These decks, regardless of format shared a few similarities: 1) the decks featured a slow clock. 2) the decks destroyed aggressive, creature based strategies. 3) the decks absolutely rolled over and died to combo decks. 4) the decks had a mediocre matchup against control decks.

    This has led a majority of people to put cycling decks (and therefore Slide) into the "glass cannon" section of their minds, ready to be called up when a particular metagame emerges, but otherwise dismissed. If you're interested in the archetype, I strongly advise you to put aside these preconceptions and attempt to judge the archetype based on what it has evolved to, rather than what it began as.

    The Core

    The heart of any Slide focused cycling deck is going to be the interaction between Astral Slide, cycling cards, and Eternal Witness. However, after that, the deck is extremely flexible in its design choices. Thus, the "core" of the deck is described more by card type rather than by specific cards.

    4 Eternal Witness
    3-4 Astral Slide
    2-4 Life from the Loam
    14-22 Cycling cards
    4-8 Mana acceleration/fixing cards

    After those 30-40 cards, the deck can consist of pretty much anything, this makes the deck extremely flexible and allows it to be tailored to a specific metagame or pilot.

    Colors

    The deck begins as Green and White but can branch into a third, fourth, or even fifth color fairly easily. The colors, and what they offer, is summarily described below. However, it's worth noting, that given the massive card pool in Legacy, there really isn't any strategy or plan that you can't answer just by staying in pure Green/White, and the consistency bonuses you get from only running two colors are significant. In other words, just because you can splash, doesn't mean you should.

    Blue: The traditional blue "gets" in Legacy are Brainstrom and Force of Will. Slide runs neither. Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Gilded Drake, Miscalculation, Inuition, Vendillion Clique, Trygon Predator, Rhox War Monk, Meddling Mage, and Glen Eledra Archmage are much more the type of thing you're looking for here. Venser, Shaper Savant and Venser the Sojourner have varying degrees of utility depending on your build. Rebuild is also a valuable sideboard option depending on how the metagame shakes out post Scars of Mirrodin.

    Red: Red offers Lightning Rift, burn, Ajani Vengeant, Lightning Helix, half of Hide/Seek, Firespout, artifact hate, and... well, that pretty much covers it. Outside of Scrap red doesn't offer much in the way of cycling cards. Lightning Rift was largely chased out of the format by the number of 3+ toughness creatures running around, however, the printing of Planeswalkers has made the card worth looking into once again. Rift is flat out one of the best options for a Slide deck looking to deal with Planeswalkers in Legacy.

    Black: Black offers discard, creature kill, recursion, and graveyard hate. Black has by far the best cycling cards on offer, with Expunge, Fade from Memory, Rapid Decay, and Unearth available. Black also offers the "Seek" half of Hide/Seek which has gained quite a bit of value with the commonality of Emrakul and Progenitus decks.

    Disruption

    If you're planning on winning the game after turn 3 or 4 on a regular basis, you need to run disruption in your maindeck. There are several options that fit in well with Slide's overall gameplan and can be easily maindecked, I'll go over the most common below.

    Wasteland: Despite the power of this strategy, and it's synergy with Life from the Loam, and the amount of fun it is, I actually recommend against this plan for most Slide decks. The reason is that with very few exceptions, your land drops are more valuable to you than they are to your opponent. I've run 4x Wasteland in Slide, and it's a lot of fun, but honestly, the Wasteland plan has led me astray and hurt me more often than its won me the game. 1-2 are enough to keep your opponents' manalands or what have you under control, which is about all you should be aiming for.

    Orim's Chant: Recursive Chants can lock down an opposing player in combination with Eternal Witness and Astral Slide. However, the lock is vulnerable to counter magic, instant speed graveyard hate, creature and enchantment removal. The lock also requires multiple pieces to maintain and needs a constant input of mana to maintain it. On the plus side, you draw cards while maintaining the lock and can use use the various pieces to recur each other if one or more is destroyed. Due to timing issues, you'll also have the ability to respond to any type of disruption except counter magic during your main phase.

    Chalice of the Void: Chalice requires only a one-time mana investment after which it simply and quietly preys on the compressed mana curve of most legacy decks, locking out removal, tutors, draw and burn spells. However, Chalice requires concessions in deck construction, such as abandoning powerful low cc cards like Unearth and Swords to Plowshares and running large numbers of turn one accelerants.

    Countermagic: You can't run a heavy counter suite in a Slide deck because too many slots are taken up by the engine, and the nature of the deck lends itself much more to proactive, rather than reactive plans. However, SMALL amounts of countermagic can be highly effective versus combo decks or as an occasional surprise play. Miscalculation is basically a double Daze that cycles, which makes it useful in the deck even when you don't have anything to counter with it. Memory Lapse is the other highly playable Slide counter. Counterspell and Force of Will are nice dreams, but they're just not going to happen with this deck, accept it and avoid the heartbreak. Mental Misstep is amazing in this deck. Worth running even if you're not in blue.

    Discard: There is a fair amount of useful creature based discard available, in the form of Tidehollow Sculler, Ravenous Rats, and Hag Hedge-Mage. There are also a number of useful discard spells available, such as Hymn to Tourach, Gerrard's Verdict, Duress, Thoughtseize, and Cabal Therapy. Targeted discard is particularly adept at disrupting counter-based strategies and at providing card quality advantage as well as straight up card advantage. However, the commonality of cantrip engines and Sensei's Divining Top make discard significantly weaker than it has ever been at any previous point in the game's history, as players are now able to hide their best cards on top of the library until it is time to use them.

    Most Recent Additions

    Scars of Mirrodin: Scars is still new enough to be hard to fully judge, but my initial estimates lean towards saying Elspeth Tirel is worthwhile in several builds, Venser, the Sojourner is not quite good enough, and you will see a lot of people play Nihil Spellbomb and Ratchet Bomb against you.

    M11: The best thing this set could have done would be to turn back the clock and allow damage stacking. Barring that, the best it could do is provide a turn 0 combo answer that's also good against other bad matchups like burn. Which it did. Welcome to the sideboard Leyline of Sanctity. Obstinate Baloth is a straight upgrade to Loxodon Hierarch.

    Mirrodin Besieged: Mirrodin Besieged brought us Green Sun's Zenith which is a truly powerful tutor. This card is just amazing, run it, like it, love it. Mirran Crusader has some great abilities, but Slide doesn't play well with equipment. Thrun, the Last Troll is good at what he does, though what he does is kind of limited, and you already have better options for artifacts and enchantments than Leonin Relic Warder. Not much else here.

    New Phyrexia: The moneymaker. Mental Misstep finally gives this deck options for dealing with turn 1/0 threats and a way to interact on the stack that it's never had before. Phyrexian Metamorph is interesting, but it's really just an upgraded Clone when you get right down to it. Surgical Extraction is a very strong option for GY hate to go alongside the dozens of other viable options that now exist for that purpose. Beast Within has almost no drawback in this deck, and is useful as a general purpose answer card, but I'm not convinced it's quite good enough.


    Lists

    The first list is what I'm competitively playing with and tuning right now, the second is something I just play for fun.

    Bant Slide

    Creatures
    1x Dryad Arbor
    4x Noble Hierarch
    4x Eternal Witness
    2x Qasali Pridemage
    1x Scavenging Ooze
    2x Kitchen Finks
    3x Knight of the Reliquary
    1x Rafiq of the Many

    Planeswalkers
    2x Jace, the Mindsculptor

    Enchantments
    3x Astral Slide

    Sorceries
    2x Life from the Loam
    4x Green Sun's Zenith

    Instants
    3x Radiant's Judgment
    3x Miscalculation
    4x Mental Misstep

    Lands
    2x Windswept Heath
    2x Misty Rainforest
    1x Bojuka Bog
    1x Karakas
    2x Forest
    1x Plains
    1x Island
    2x Savannah
    2x Tropical Island
    4x Tranquil Thicket
    2x Secluded Steppe
    2x Lonely Sandbar

    Sideboard
    2x Scryb Ranger
    3x Angel's Grace (flex slot, can also be Surgical Extraction or Peacekeeper or anything for your meta/problem deck really)
    2x Rhox War Monk
    3x Rebuild
    1x Angus Mackenzie
    1x Gaddock Teeg
    1x Harmonic Sliver
    1x Trygon Predator
    1x Loaming Shaman

    You're essentially pre-boarded with cards like Miscalculation, Mental Misstep, Scavenging Ooze, and the KotR/Bojuka Bog combo. If you really want to preboard, putting a singleton Teeg in the MD to search out with Zenith isn't exactly hard to do, and it's not like you lose access to lots of things with a teeg on the board. Mostly just Jace2 and GSZ. The only real weakness in this build I've noticed so far is that it has no way to deal with small utility dudes, like Dark Confidant or Stoneforge Mystic aside from using Slide on them. (note: do not use slide on stoneforge mystic). Gilded Drake is a pretty funny option to solve this problem with, but I'm not currently running any. That may/probably will change.

    Next I'm going to describe the list I'm currently playing for fun. I don't recommend others try it. It's heavily customized to my playstyle and preferences and the MTGO meta, which is essentially 100% random.

    Five Color Slide

    Creatures
    4x Eternal Witness
    3x Qasali Pridemage
    2x Knight of the Reliquary

    Planeswalkers
    2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    2x Ajani Vengeant

    Enchantments
    3x Astral Slide
    2x Lightning Rift

    Artifacts
    4x Mox Diamond

    Sorceries
    2x Life from the Loam
    3x Unearth

    Instants
    2x Intuition
    2x Rapid Decay
    4x Miscalculation

    Lands
    1x Volrath's Stronghold
    1x Wasteland
    1x Verdant Catacombs
    1x Windswept Heath
    1x Misty Rainforest
    1x Wooded Foothills
    1x Savannah
    1x Bayou
    1x Tropical Island
    1x Taiga
    1x Forest
    1x Plains
    1x Swamp
    1x Mountain
    1x Island
    4x Tranquil Thicket
    2x Secluded Steppe
    2x Lonely Sandbar
    1x Bojuka Bog
    1x Karakas
    1x Maze of Ith

    Sideboard
    3x Gilded Drake
    3x Firespout
    3x Surgical Extraction
    2x Krosan Grip
    4x Leyline of Sanctity

    Playing the Deck

    The gameplan of a Slide deck can be roughly extrapolated from the South Park Underpants Gnomes. Step 1: Establish your mana. Step 2: Spend your mana. Step 3: Gain control of the board. Step 4: Profits.

    Play out your cycling lands until you've got three mana, once you've hit that threshold, feel free to start cycling them away. A dedicated mana denial strategy that can force itself through your defenses (basics, fetches, loam, and artifact mana/land search) is probably the worst thing a Slide deck can come up against. Fortunately, the deck does have a strong manabase, and thanks to Loam it can usually recover from LD effects fairly quickly.

    Given the number of cycling cards in the deck, if you have mana at the end of your opponents turn, you're generally making a mistake. Don't be afraid to cycle through removal just because you think your opponent may play a creature next turn. The goal is to burn through your deck until you get Witness/Slide or Loam online, at which point you can bury your opponent.

    Once you've gained control of the board, either through creature superiority, chantlock, or by means of removal, the game should end pretty quickly. No deck has the same level of recursive lategame power as Slide does, and once you hit the point where you're taking advantage of that, your opponent should be unable to mount a comeback.

    Matchups

    Decks were chosen based on their presence in the Source DTB Forum on 5/6/10 and are organized alphabetically.

    Aggro Loam
    How good this matchup is depends almost strictly on whether or not they're running Devastating Dreams. If they have Dreams you're probably going to lose this. Mass LD effects own Slide pretty hard. If they're not running Dreams, which a lot of lists aren't anymore, than it's a lot like playing a mirror where your opponent doesn't have any relevant cards.

    Chant: Pull the Tabernacle for the second Bog, lose the Vengeances for additional Swords and Extirpates. Chant can be replaced by Grip if you're worried about Seismic Assault.

    Chalice: CotV is worthless here as they also eschew one mana spells and often run Chalices themselves. Bring in Crypts and the third copies of Decay and Vapors.

    ANT
    Over a long enough time period, they can overcome Chalice or Chant in game one. Sometimes they will, sometimes they won't. Games 2 and 3 you bring in Canonist. It's been my experience that two pieces of hate is generally more than they can deal with, although you can always lose to the turn one on the play win.

    Chant: pull the creature removal, Maze, Deeds, Slide, and Tabernacle for Teegs, Canonists, and Extirpate. Use Extirpate to counter Mystical Tutor.

    Chalice: Lose the Vapors and Dusts for Canonists, but be aware that Hurkyll's Recall canl bounce all your hate at once during your endstep. If this is of particular concern for you, then replace the Canonists in the board with Rule of Laws.

    Bant Survival
    It's a thresh deck with more draw and fewer counters. Chalice and maindeck enchantment removal and graveyard hate are all things it doesn't want to see. They will have some "tech" creatures like Kira, Great Glass Spinner that make it harder to dominate them with Slide, but in most cases, it won't be enough.

    Chant: Pull the Chants, add Grips. Extirpate is also worth looking at in this matchup.

    Chalice: Their curve is diversified enough that Chalice isn't that great. Add Explosives and the third Decay to replace them.

    Countertop
    Another deck that is unhappy to see maindeck enchantment removal. Low threat count leaves them vulnerable to large quantities of removal. All of their creatures are vulnerable to Slide unless they run Nimble Mongoose. You have guys that are bigger than Nimble Mongoose. The ability to cycle away cards that they could otherwise hit with CB combined with a higher than average curve are real bonuses in this match.

    Chant: Pull the Chants, Tabernacle, and a Swords for Grips and Vapors. Also worth considering ditching the Crop Rotations for Teegs depending on their build.

    Chalice: You can bring in Explosives, and they'll be useful, but you'll have to cut something else thats probably equally useful. If you go this route, start pulling with the Decays.

    Ichorid
    Maindeck graveyard hate helps a little, but not enough. After you lose game one, bring in your extra yard hate and Ghostly Prisons from the board. Proceed to win games two and three unless they get "the nutz". Not tons you can do here since you're essentially ceding game one to them.

    Chant: Crop Rotation is the MVP of this match. With a Tabernacle on the board, Ichorids offense is reduced to Ichorids, a discard outlet, and FKZ-hasted Zombies. Repeated use of Bojuka Bog is also pretty hard for them to overcome. Pull the Slides, Vengeances, and Vapors for the extra Bog, Extirpates, Teegs, and the fourth Swords.

    Chalice: Chalice is pretty worthless here, as even if you're countering Cabal Therapy, they'll still be able to sacrifice creatures for tokens off of it. Ghostly Prison is your best card against them. Pull the Vapors, Dusts, and Chalices for Explosives, Crypts, Prisons, and the third Decay.

    Merfolk
    Just keep building up your mana while killing as many of their lords as possible. You don't have any Islands, so unblockability isn't that much of a problem, don't be afraid to trade with them, their guys are generally more valuable to them than vice versa. If you manage to stick a Slide, it's probably over. Watch out for Stifle hitting your Slide triggers when you're brining back a Witness.

    Chant: Lose the Chants for the extra removal in the board. Play tight and trade whenever possible.

    Chalice: It's a tough call on whether or not to keep the Chalices in in this match, and a relatively build dependent one. If you see lots of Stifles and cantrips game one, its probably ok to keep the Chalices, if you don't though, pull them for Prisons and Vapors. Also consider replacing the Dusts with Explosives because again, Vial is a major threat here that Dust doesn't hit.

    Survival
    You've got a better long term card advantage and recursion engine, and a better draw engine to find them. Barring a crazy good draw, you should take this match walking away. However, given that there are about 1 million+ different builds, this isn't a matchup you can take for granted, as some of them will randomly have unexpected situational tech that just owns you the first time you see it.

    Chant: Bring in the Grips, Vapors and a Bog, lose Tabernacle, Maze, and Crop Rotation.

    Chalice: Lose the Chalices, bring in Explosives and Vapors. Depending on their build, the Crypts and Decay can also be useful.

    Tempo Thresh
    Just keep playing lands until you resolve a Loam, then play some more lands. Once your mana is established, you should be able to overpower their light threat base. It really does come down to surviving the first four turns with 3+ mana. Do that, and you're in great shape. Fail, and they may power through for the win. In either case, if the game goes long, it's yours.

    Chant: Pull your Chants for the extra removal. Take out Tabernacle for the second Bog. You have more removal than they have dudes and counters. Kill all their guys, then win with yours. The Bogs help keep the Mongeese small.

    Chalice: Only board for this matchup if you feel like it. Explosives are strong vs. this deck, as is Vapors. The combination of invulnerable mana, acceleration, Chalice and bigger dudes plus the already present removal suite is really more than their deck can handle.

    Vial Goblins
    You'll likely lose game one. LD+hastyfast swarm beats is the worst thing for Slide to face, and that's what goblins brings to the table. It doesn't help that you can't use Slide on their ETB creatures like Ringleader and Matron.

    Chant: Bring in the extra removal for Bog and Maze, they don't use the graveyard or attack one at a time. Save your StPs for Lackeys, Warchiefs, and Chieftans, those are the three cards that can really prove problematic in this match. Vapors is relatively subpar here because there's almost always a "useless" goblin to sacrifice to it. However, the slight tempo loss and lifegain still make the card worth playing, just don't pin too many hopes on it. Whenever possible, keep an extra G up in this match to counter Wastelands with Crop Rotations, or at least bluff it.

    Chalice: Pull your Chalices, Dusts, and one Rapid Decay in games two and three and bring in Explosives, Prisons, and Vapors. Prison is by far your best card against them. Dust comes out because it leaves Aether Vial behind and active, which is a dealbreaker in this matchup. Chalice does little after turn one because of the decks' spread out curve and Aether Vial's presence.

    Zoo
    Fast beats backed up by burn, however, if you survive to turn four and are out of immediate burn range, you've likely won.

    Chant: Board into more Swords and Vapors, pull chants and land search spells. Chant is less useful here because they can just burn you out during your own turn. Focus on killing everything you see and don't be afraid to chump block. Your higher mana spells trump anything they've got in their deck, just focus on surviving until you can use them.

    Chalice: Be careful of how much tomb damage you take. Try to stick a chalice asap, because Chalice@1 turns off fully half of their deck, including the majority of the burn spells. Bring in Explosives and Vapors for Dust and Decays.
    Last edited by morgan_coke; 02-02-2018 at 09:34 PM. Reason: Then End.

  2. #2
    Plays green decks
    Jak's Avatar
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    Re: Astral Slide vs. Legacy, take 78

    No Tarmogoyf.

  3. #3
    Big Gay Al
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    Re: Astral Slide vs. Legacy, take 78

    I hope that was a joke Jak. Both of the creatures in this deck designated as the beaters are much better for the deck as a whole than tarmogoyf would be because of the way they combo with the deck's namesake astral slide.

    I'm pretty tired of people who complain that there is no tarmogoyf as soon as they see a deck not running it, it dies to almost every removal spell played in legacy, has no real abilities, and at first glance does not look like it has a home in this deck.

    Now on to some food for thought. Does Mangara of Corondor combo well enough with Astral slide to think about including? You would want to find room for a couple of karakas as well and it might be able to replace vindicate since it essentially has the same effect even though it happens a turn slower.

    Since you have some acceleration in the form of mox diamond and ancient tomb it might be feasible to run trinisphere in your board against combo, it doesn't look like it will hurt you too much and it just completely shuts down many combo decks where chant and abeyance can often only save you for a turn here and there.

    The 8 discard effect disruption package you had listed for the sideboard doesn't seem like it would be a good choice since you only have 3 sources of black mana with 2 early ways to fetch one of them. For the disruption to be effective against combo you need to be able to cast it turn one consistently.

    For the same reasons I listed above I would stay away from shred memory since you need double black to transmute it for something useful.

    As far as loaming shaman is concerned I see how he might stick out as useful against graveyard dependent decks like ichorid and that you can reuse him with astral slide but often the turn you need to get rid of the graveyard is the turn they are killing you and you have no instant speed way of sneaking him into play, you might consider running something like wheel of sun and moon instead.

    As I said just some food for thought, let me know what you think, good luck.
    Last edited by Bourgeoise; 08-10-2008 at 05:07 AM. Reason: fixed some punctuation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ertai's Familiar View Post
    David is going to rape you. No joke, angry rape.

  4. #4
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    Re: Astral Slide vs. Legacy, take 78

    No it wasn't a joke. I think you need to except that a deck playing green should run him. Everyone isn't doing it because some other deck runs him, it's because he is that good. Unearth and protection via Astral Slide. There's your home.

    This has no answers for a Lackey (GOBLINS IS STILL GOOD) and has no disruption outside of six 3cmc and 4cmc cards. No Natuko Monastery or Wasteland (to go along with the Mana disruption theme) and no Swords to Plowshares. I am sorry but 3 Vindicate isn't enough, even with Witness.

    Now I am not going to say that Astral slide sucks, but building a deck around it is hard. You need to run lots of stuff that cycles, 4 Slide, and then creatures for Slide. That package takes up a ton of room and leaves nothing for disruption or accel. Doing cute Witness tricks is cool, but wouldn't you rather just play Goyfs and win? Angel is really slow and there is this thing in the format called Swords to Plowshares. You can't resurrect that Angel. You run 3 solid beaters. Finks is okay, but will never get past a Goyf or Stalker or Doran.

  5. #5

    Re: Astral Slide vs. Legacy, take 78

    Quote Originally Posted by Bourgeoise View Post
    I'm pretty tired of people who complain that there is no tarmogoyf as soon as they see a deck not running it, it dies to almost every removal spell played in legacy, has no real abilities, and at first glance does not look like it has a home in this deck.
    QFT!

    @topic:

    Is Unearth really that good in this deck? I suggest replacing it by 3-4 Chalice of the Void (3, since you still run one 2cc spell mb), since this is your only 1cc spell. CotV disrupts so many decks, including combo. and you can bring it up turn 1.
    If you cut it, I'd cut Vindicate too, in order to cut B completely. Maybe replacing it with Oblivion Ring (which fits good into the curve). Or Mangara (and then Karakas) as said already.

    Why Genesis? You have no way, to tutor it, or put into graveyard. It is more a Survival card.

    I'm not sure, but maybe 2 LftL are enough?

    I'd play 3-4 Flagstones, since they combo with Edge of Autumn.

    Trinisphere fits in the deck, too (in the SB), as said already.

    As said: 8 black cards in SB, don't fit to 3 black sources in MB. But I'd cut black completely.

    What about playing Lightning Rift? I know it would be your only red card, but maybe you could fit 2-3 in, together with 2 Plateaus. It gives you so much board control, combos with the rest of the deck and is a win condition.

    EDIT: maybe Street Wraiths deserves consideration, too.

  6. #6

    Re: Astral Slide vs. Legacy, take 78

    On Tarmogoyf, it may indeed be the correct decision to run him. If he is run, then you would cut the Angels, Genesis, and the Tombs in order for 4x Tarmogoyf and 4x Wasteland. 'Goyf comboes with Slide and Unearth and dredging Loams while Angel comboes with Slide and Tomb and Mox. There are a fair number of decks that just flat out lose to Angel attacking unmorphed on turn 2.

    However, I think this is the wrong call for several reasons:
    1) it slows the deck down. tomb is acceleration, this deck is built as a heavily accelerated deck. lack of speed has been slide's main problem in legacy. Wasteland slows you by denying you land drops (though it does the same to your opponent) and taking out tomb slows you by removing acceleration.

    2) it makes the deck more graveyard dependent. one of the best points in Angels favor is that it doesn't remotely lean on the the gy.

    That said, it could very well be the correct choice to run Wasteland/Goyf over Tomb/Angel.

    Black Mana:

    The deck has 9 sources of turn one black, and 14 ways to access black overall.

    Turn one Black sources:
    Windswept Heath
    Windswept Heath
    Scrubland
    Bayou
    Swamp
    Mox Diamond
    Mox Diamond
    Mox Diamond
    Mox Diamond

    After turn one you can add in another five:
    Flagstones of Trokair
    Flagstones of Trokair
    Edge of Autumn
    Edge of Autumn
    Edge of Autumn

    Mangara is cool, but you'd have to replace the Flagstones with Karakas to fit them in, and she's sloooooow. Vindicate can be re-used with Witness, and ad infinitum with witness and slide. Mangara is mostly useless unless paired with Slide or Karakas. Flagstones works with more cards in the deck than Karakas would, and lets you run a not slow card in that slot anyways.

    On Loam, in most decks two is enough, but with Mox Diamond in your deck and Wasteland in the format, you really, really want early Loams, and the best way to draw them is to just include more.

    Genesis/Stronghold are there to make sure that if you're dredging a lot, you still get creatures. It happens sometimes when you're using loam a lot that you end up with lots of lands and nothing else, these two cards both make sure you get some dudes in that instance. One might be enough though, perhaps the Genesis should go for the fourth Angel.

    The Chalice board could perhaps look like this?

    4x Chalice of the Void
    4x Trinisphere
    4x Wheel of Sun and Moon
    3x Extirpate

    The main hesitation I have with Chalice is that vs. combo, you really want to set it at Zero and One. One isn't an issue, you can just cycle your Unearths. Zero turns off your diamonds, and both their color fixing AND acceleration are important to the deck.

    I haven't played Legacy in awhile, and the last time I did Solidarity was the main combo deck, and it can pretty well ignore/work around Chalice and 3sphere. If things have changed on that front, I'd be interested in hearing it. Chalice also has some nice uses against thresh and burn, one of which is already good, one of which isn't.

    Oh, and theLion? Yes, Unearth IS that good. It's actually better than that, it's amazing.

  7. #7

    Re: Astral Slide vs. Legacy, take 78

    Your point on Tarmogoyf doesn't become clear, since you always change your argumentation:

    Quote Originally Posted by morgan_coke View Post
    On Tarmogoyf, it may indeed be the correct decision to run him.
    [...]
    There are a fair number of decks that just flat out lose to Angel attacking unmorphed on turn 2.

    However, I think this is the wrong call (on Goyf) for several reasons:
    [...]

    That said, it could very well be the correct choice to run Wasteland/Goyf over Tomb/Angel.
    Quote Originally Posted by morgan_coke View Post
    Mangara is cool, but you'd have to replace the Flagstones with Karakas to fit them in, and she's sloooooow.
    Why replace?

    Quote Originally Posted by morgan_coke View Post
    The Chalice board could perhaps look like this?

    4x Chalice of the Void
    4x Trinisphere
    4x Wheel of Sun and Moon
    3x Extirpate

    I haven't played Legacy in awhile, and the last time I did Solidarity was the main combo deck, and it can pretty well ignore/work around Chalice and 3sphere. If things have changed on that front, I'd be interested in hearing it. Chalice also has some nice uses against thresh and burn, one of which is already good, one of which isn't.

    Oh, and theLion? Yes, Unearth IS that good. It's actually better than that, it's amazing.
    Chalice is amazing, too. No Brainstorms, no Swords, no Ponders, no Senseis', it wins against Burn nearly alone, no Nimble Mongoose, no Vial, no Lackey, and so on...

    My suggestion was, to play it in the MB, not SB, and replace Unearth with it. I have not tested it, but Unearth is your only 1CC spell, so i thought...

    And how can Solidarity win against Chalice and Trinisphere? High Tide costs 1 too, and it's the most important card for this deck.

  8. #8

    Re: Astral Slide vs. Legacy, take 78

    Sorry if I was unclear about 'Goyf. Shorter version, 1) He doesn't get that big without your opponents help (you only regularly put lands and sorceries in the yard), 2) He's graveyard dependent in a deck that already heavily relies on the yard. 3) He's Vanilla in a deck that despises Vanilla.

    Mangara's main issue is Slowness. The only deck that's successfully abused him so far (Death and Taxes) runs Vial to counteract this. Karakas is good in that deck, bad in this one. You'd have to replace the Flagstones to run Karakas because they're the only lands it would be remotely viable to replace, and pulling them is still a bad idea.

    Generally speaking, slide beats interactive decks and loses to decks that play with themselves. By interactive I mean decks that cast spells and attack over the course of a few turns - this category includes everything from Goblins and Threshold to Truffle Shuffle and Deadguy. Non-interactive decks are things like Ichorid and Tendrils that play with themselves then just win through a few specific cards.

    Chalice and 3sphere both help with those types of matchups immensely. I have absolutely no problem playing either maindeck. The problem is one of space. As noted by Jak, the slide engine and associated cards do take up a fair amount of room, leaving the deck very tight on slots. Usually Slide is played with the maindeck being all about beating interactive decks, and the board devoted to non-interactive ones. The best card to cut from the maindeck is probably Angel, and pulling it slows your clock down to Deadguy speeds, except without all the disruption.

  9. #9

    Re: Astral Slide vs. Legacy, take 78

    Just a reference, here a recent Top8 decklist.

    It runs WGR.

    Oh and Solitary Confinement must be in this deck... It of course improves the Combo Matchup too. (untargetable).

    Though I miss the Moxen in his list...

  10. #10

    Re: Astral Slide vs. Legacy, take 78

    I stopped reading in morgan_coke's post where he said that Tarmogoyf makes this deck graveyard dependent. Apparently, Mr. coke needs to "RTFC." Tarmogoyf counts cards in both your graveyard and your opponent's graveyard. It is not uncommon for Tarmogoyf to get an additional +2/+2 (or greater, depending on what the other deck is) from your opponent's graveyard. Secondly, this deck uses Life from the Loam. How is it not graveyard dependent?!

    Secondly, saying that Tarmogoyf should not be run because he dies to every removal spell is fallacious. Every creature in the game will die to some removal spell or another. Does that mean we should all stop running creatures and go back to the days of UW control with Millstone as the win? If you said "yes," you need to do humanity a service and kill yourself. Bitching and moaning about what something dies to completely ignores the fact that most non-control decks only run four or so removal spells. Even if they hit every single Tarmogoyf you own with a Swords, that's one less Swords pointed at another guy. The thing about Tarmogoyf is that he's so fucking good, your opponent HAS to answer him or risk losing. Sure, the same may apply to Exalted Angel, but having eight "z0mg must kill meh" guys instead of four makes your deck that much more resilient and that much stronger as a competitor. There's a reason why people shit bricks over Tarmogoyf - because he's FUCKING RIDICULOUS. Any deck that doesn't run him needs a helluva lot better excuse than "he dies to stuff" and "I <3 Angel too much to cut him."

    Also, Slide is terrible in Legacy. Even with assloads of acceleration, it doesn't do anything relevant quickly unless you get the God Hand (tm) or your opponent gets unlucky.

  11. #11

    Re: Astral Slide vs. Legacy, take 78

    He meant, that Tarmoyf is dependant on the graveyard, and he doesn't want more cards dependant on the graveyard, since he would then be more vulnerable to GY hate. Sure he looks at the opponents GY, too... but still...

    I wouldn't run goyf neither, since he has no synergy with any of the cards. I'd rather play Citp creatures.
    I mean if your opponent cant answer Loxodon Hierarch, he will die too, escpecially when you gain 4 life from him each turn.

    Oh and look at the Top8 list I posted... do you see Goyf? No! And it were 48 players.

  12. #12

    Re: Astral Slide vs. Legacy, take 78

    Hey zomb, instead of RTFC, read the fucking post.

    I stopped reading when I saw you say you stopped reading.. oooh wow, pretty goddamn pointless to make a response then eh?

    I never said 'goyf dies to removal, I said he's VANILLA, as in, has no abilities aside from being big.

    The lower cost of 'goyf is less relevant to this deck than to others because of all the acceleration, if cost isn't such a factor, there are better creatures than goyf. Goyf is good for two reasons 1) he's cheap, 2) he's big. This deck doesn't make goyf big on its own, and it doesn't need him to be cheap. Why exactly should he be an auto include omg u shuld k1ll urs3lf n00b! k thnx bai. when his main advantages aren't needed or used by the deck? Seriously, I want to know.

    And yes, the fact that 'Goyf is yard dependent in a deck thats ALREADY yard dependent is kind of relevant, you know, that whole diversify routes to victory/threats concept? I guess that's just too n00bish an idea for an 3l1t3 mastorz like u.

    Also, thanks for your opinion that slide is terrible in Legacy, a creature dominated format, and since you were already convinced of that before posting, why the hell did you post in this thread? go troll somewhere else.

  13. #13

    Re: Astral Slide vs. Legacy, take 78

    Quote Originally Posted by morgan_coke View Post
    The lower cost of 'goyf is less relevant to this deck than to others because of all the acceleration, if cost isn't such a factor, there are better creatures than goyf. Goyf is good for two reasons 1) he's cheap, 2) he's big. This deck doesn't make goyf big on its own, and it doesn't need him to be cheap.
    That's exactly the point. This deck skips his 1cc and 2cc spells (except for a few like loam).
    Goyf is good in decks with a low mana curve like Threshold, RG beatz and such.

  14. #14
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    Re: Astral Slide vs. Legacy, take 78

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLion View Post
    That's exactly the point. This deck skips his 1cc and 2cc spells (except for a few like loam).
    Goyf is good in decks with a low mana curve like Threshold, RG beatz and such.
    So we shouldn't play Goyf because he is undercosted?

  15. #15

    Re: Astral Slide vs. Legacy, take 78

    no. but we could play better creatures on turn 2. not as consistantly, since we need mox or tomb. but in general we have faster mana development than other decks, and can effort playing more expensive spells than other decks can.

  16. #16
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    Re: Astral Slide vs. Legacy, take 78

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLion View Post
    no. but we could play better creatures on turn 2. not as consistantly, since we need mox or tomb. but in general we have faster mana development than other decks, and can effort spending more on our spells than other decks can.
    So what creature are you recommending? All I have seen is "no goyf!". There really aren't any better creatures to run in the slot. You have 8 pieces of accel and you won't draw them all the time (Tomb doesn't do anything for this deck, and should probably be cut). He is most often a 5/6 for 2! You won't ever find a 5/6 for 3 or even 4. He is that good.

  17. #17

    Re: Astral Slide vs. Legacy, take 78

    Cards in this deck (and sideboard) Tomb accelerates:

    Astral Slide
    Exalted Angel
    Unearth
    Cataclysm
    Chalice of the Void
    Trinisphere

    That's 22 out of 75 cards that get accelerated by it. Really, it's 22 out of 47 once you've discounted lands and moxen (14 out of 32 maindeck). Tomb can also be used if you're casting more than one spell a turn to provide acceleration, for example: on t3 you could play Edge of Autumn AND Life from the Loam. See how cool that is?

    I'm also testing some of the Saga cycling lands mixed in with the ONS ones, more because of extirpate/echoes than tomb though. A pair of 3/1 ons/us splits might work fairly well.

    Jak, we're not saying "no goyf!" we're saying Angel, Finks, and Witness are all BETTER than goyf in the deck. If you have a suggestion on what other card(s) to remove for it, please share it with the rest of us.

    EDIT: the cycling lands in question as potential one-ofs are Slippery Karst and Drifting Meadow.

  18. #18
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    Re: Astral Slide vs. Legacy, take 78

    @Jak:
    TheLion isn't talking about manacost/power+toughness ratio but about creatures that actually _do_ something in this deck besides being just fat. If you actually wann argue about Goyf in this deck talk needs to be done about alternatives regarding their e.g. abilities and not just pure power/toughness.
    The seven cardinal sins of Legacy:
    1. Discuss the unbanning of Land Tax Earthcraft.
    2. Argue that banning Force of Will would make the format healthier.
    3. Play Brainstorm without Fetchlands.
    4. Stifle Standstill.
    5. Think that Gaea's Blessing will make you Solidarity-proof.
    6. Pass priority after playing Infernal Tutor.
    7. Fail to playtest against Nourishing Lich (coZ iT wIlL gEt U!).

  19. #19

    Re: Astral Slide vs. Legacy, take 78

    Quote Originally Posted by Jak. View Post
    So what creature are you recommending? All I have seen is "no goyf!". There really aren't any better creatures to run in the slot. You have 8 pieces of accel and you won't draw them all the time (Tomb doesn't do anything for this deck, and should probably be cut). He is most often a 5/6 for 2! You won't ever find a 5/6 for 3 or even 4. He is that good.
    I'd play a mix of

    Wall of Blossoms
    Kitchen Finks
    Loxodon Hierarch
    Eternal Dragon
    Flametounge Kavu
    Eternal Witness

    All have synergy with Slide.

    Have a look at loam/slide decks.

    Nobody plays Goyf in Slide lists.

  20. #20
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    Re: Astral Slide vs. Legacy, take 78

    Just because other people don't play with Goyf in there lists doesn't mean you can't. This deck is much less controlling than those other decks so it needs to be different no Confinement, Pyroclasm, Swords means you need something to stop creatures from hitting you. Angel will often be to slow and is just as vulnerable as Goyf. By making the deck less dependent on Slide the deck will be better, just like with Survival. You may win some games where you get a turn 2 slide turn 3 angel or something, but those won't happen all the time.

    Doing cute tricks to gain life is nice but beating down with a 5/6 that has protection form every relevant removal spell is so much better.

    TheLion, your suggestions are not that amazing. He doesn't even pay red for one thing. Hierarch isn't needed since he already plays 4 Finks. Blossoms is crap. He already plays Witness and Eternal Dragon is slow. How do you expect to compete when your deck is far too slow? You run no disruption and your threat gets owned by Swords.

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