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Thread: [Deck] Astral Slide vs. Legacy, take 78

  1. #21

    Re: Astral Slide vs. Legacy, take 78

    My suggestions where more genereal on Slide decks, not on his list. I'd rather play red instead of black. Only for Lightning Rift and maybe Kavu. Rift combos with nearly your whole deck, while Unearth only combos with Slide or you need witness or Finks in grave, which means, it's sometimes a dead card.
    I havent tested Unearth, but it doesnt look that good on paper.

    This is a control deck. Playing slow creatures ala Eternal Dragon does not seem bad in a control deck.

    5/6 goyfs are rare, too. And it's new to me, that Goyf has protection from Swords and Smothers. (the most relevant removal).

    I'm tired of discussing goyf in this deck...

    what about:
    Tilling Treefolk

    He seems like a small Loam for free every turn (with slide).

  2. #22
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    Re: Astral Slide vs. Legacy, take 78

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLion View Post
    My suggestions where more genereal on Slide decks, not on his list. I'd rather play red instead of black. Only for Lightning Rift and maybe Kavu. Rift combos with nearly your whole deck, while Unearth only combos with Slide or you need witness or Finks in grave, which means, it's sometimes a dead card.
    I havent tested Unearth, but it doesnt look that good on paper.

    This is a control deck. Playing slow creatures ala Eternal Dragon does not seem bad in a control deck.

    5/6 goyfs are rare, too. And it's new to me, that Goyf has protection from Swords and Smothers. (the most relevant removal).

    I'm tired of discussing goyf in this deck...

    what about:
    Tilling Treefolk

    He seems like a small Loam for free every turn (with slide).
    You can slide it out in resp to the removal.

    See, the deck posted isn't a control deck. 3 Cataclysms won't do a whole lot. Gaining life won't either. Sure it will help, but you are digging yourself a hole when your deck is so slow. You will be down on life by the time you can set up.

  3. #23

    Re: Astral Slide vs. Legacy, take 78

    Jak,
    you can slide ANY of your creatures out in response to removal, not just 'goyf. The deck ISN'T slow, that's why there's so much acceleration in it. The lifegain is for racing aggro.

    Cataclysm is meant as more of a "win the game"/safety button card. The deck can easily have 5-6 permanents in play after one resolves, which is a lot more than your opponent will likely have. It also devastates other board control decks.

    Lion,
    I like the treefolk as a potential supplement to Loam but not as a replacement. The thing that makes loam so great is that its an engine all by itself, whereas the treefolk isn't. Treefolk does play nicely with a lot of cards here though, I'd view it mainly as a replacement for Loam #3/potential Extirpate insurance.

  4. #24

    Re: Astral Slide vs. Legacy, take 78

    Quote Originally Posted by morgan_coke View Post
    Hey zomb, instead of RTFC, read the fucking post.

    I stopped reading when I saw you say you stopped reading.. oooh wow, pretty goddamn pointless to make a response then eh?

    I never said 'goyf dies to removal, I said he's VANILLA, as in, has no abilities aside from being big.

    The lower cost of 'goyf is less relevant to this deck than to others because of all the acceleration, if cost isn't such a factor, there are better creatures than goyf. Goyf is good for two reasons 1) he's cheap, 2) he's big. This deck doesn't make goyf big on its own, and it doesn't need him to be cheap. Why exactly should he be an auto include omg u shuld k1ll urs3lf n00b! k thnx bai. when his main advantages aren't needed or used by the deck? Seriously, I want to know.

    And yes, the fact that 'Goyf is yard dependent in a deck thats ALREADY yard dependent is kind of relevant, you know, that whole diversify routes to victory/threats concept? I guess that's just too n00bish an idea for an 3l1t3 mastorz like u.

    Also, thanks for your opinion that slide is terrible in Legacy, a creature dominated format, and since you were already convinced of that before posting, why the hell did you post in this thread? go troll somewhere else.
    Oh ho, a flame war? Fine, I'll take the bait.

    I didn't say that you said that he dies to things. However, you may or may not have noticed that the posts above yours were making points along those lines. I simply wished to point out to them that using Goyf's vulnerability to removal as an excuse not to run him is a non-argument. YOU, however, did make the point about graveyard hate. How many opponents run symmetrical graveyard hate, and how many of them are going to Crypt themselves after they Crypt you? The creature is dependent on BOTH graveyards and therefore is less vulnerable to graveyard hate than you are making it out to be, since the chances that your opponent's yard will completely disappear at the same time are low. At the very least, Goyf will be a 1/2 post-Crypt because Crypt will hit the yard and give it +1/+1, even if the opponent's yard is empty.

    I'm saying that Tarmogoyf should be run because it's a good creature, and good creatures win. Now, if this deck was running Chalice and Trinisphere, or if it ran 4 Pernicious Deed, 4 Wrath, and 4 EE, then arguments could be made not to include Goyf. Even then, in the latter case you have Genesis to recur him, and Goyf is a card that's too good not to be at least tested, much less dismissed offhand as not being synergistic. Which, by the way, brings me to another point: you don't have to have every card be a slave to the deck's theme to have a good deck - just look at the modern Threshold deck, which is more a collection of good cards than any particularly synergistic pile. What you need to realize is that Goyf may not necessarily be synergistic with Slide, but he IS synergistic with winning, which is probably the more important synergy given the implied goals of the deck.

    Astral Slide is not a true control deck like Landstill or Stax, unless specifically built that way (and the opening list is not specifically built that way). It is best to think of it as being a schizophrenic aggro-control deck that can play a weak control game before switching over to playing a weak aggro game once favorable winds begin to blow. Tarmogoyf is helpful in both these respects because:

    a) He blocks the shit out of 90% of the creatures in this format and survives,
    b) He is extremely difficult to remove in the absence of a targeted removal spell,
    c) He comes down early, helping you to stabilize quicker,
    d) He ends the game quickly when it is time to do so.

    Furthermore, this deck runs both Life from the Loam and Cataclysm. The latter spell is almost guaranteed to make Tarmogoyf an instant 4/5 if it wasn't one already, and Life from the Loam can make Tarmogoyf big very quickly. Just play it, recur whatever you have (or nothing at all, it's irrelevant), and start dredging. Voila! Big fucking guy for two mana! Best wall ever made for the first few turns, mind-boggling good finisher in the last few turns!

    You said that Tarmogoyf had no useful abilities other than his size and therefore was not relevant here. I'm saying that his size is precisely his most useful ability. How many decks can field multiple 4/5 creatures on turn two? Oftentimes, the mere threat of losing one's Goose or Factory to a Tarmogoyf is enough to dissuade an opponent from attacking. The longer they don't try to win, the longer you have to make sure they can't win. Against Goblins, Goyf can tangle with most of what the deck plays and walk away (by the way, Slide is terrible against Goblins unless you run red). If you don't want to consider Tarmogoyf as being an offensive creature at heart, then think of him as being an amazing defensive creature that you can lean on while setting up Slide.

    Finally, if you don't think Goyf diversifies your threat base enough, then drop black for red and run Lightning Rift, which is invulnerable to creature removal and makes use of the deck's engine, making it mostly independent of creature removal strategies.

    Finally, I say Slide is bad from experience, not because I'm trolling. Hell, you should know this, given the whole "take 78" thing. Slide has turned out to be one of those decks that's great in theory yet doesn't quite work out when it's actually tested. But hey, maybe you've hit on the magic formula that is actually competitive in this format. If so, my hat goes off to you.

    Also, TheLion, look at a longer list of historical Top 8s. How many times does Slide show up there compared to, say, Threshold or Aggro-Loam, decks that both run Tarmogoyf? Pointing to a bunch of lists and using it as an argument against Tarmogoyf when Slide isn't even a serious competitor in the metagame is a logical mistake. Perhaps Slide doesn't show up more often because it doesn't run Tarmogoyf? Ever thought of that?

  5. #25
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    Re: Astral Slide vs. Legacy, take 78

    Ok, so all about Goyf worth saying has been said. Move on.

    I like the deck, especially the Loam synergy and the Tombs.

    Is Cataclysm really better than Wrath here ? Your opponent keeping a Stalker or Terravore could really hurt...

    I'd also question the awesomness of Unearth, especially since it only comes online after turn three, which is not good if you fear Aggro. Going down to two seems viable, but I think the effect is only good in mid- to lategame, and you already have enough cyclers. I think four Chalice main is the right choice, seeing as you have no other disruption...if not, I'd play at least six of Thoughtseize/Therapies (3/3 split). Either way, SOME disruption would be needed. Discard main would also speed up the deck (instead of getting Slide countered, then playing another one, you can take away the Force turn one). But I think you're a bit too worried about combo with TWELVE cards in the side - with Chalice main, you'd need seven maximum (preferably the discard suite, Chant and Abeyance are narrow, and you need to take away Grips after boarding). That would leave room form some good CIP creatures to abuse with Slide and Witness...Shriekmaw comes to mind (I think you can slide it in response to it going to the grave), which could maybe be in the main. I'm sure there are others...

    Also, 1-ofs without tuturing are not so good (Genesis, Stronghold), you rely on dredging them with Loam, and that's a very small chance.
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  6. #26
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    Re: Astral Slide vs. Legacy, take 78

    Quote Originally Posted by morgan_coke View Post
    I think one of the biggest problems Slide has had in Legacy is that while the deck does some extremely broken things in the mid and late game, its early game is pretty weaksauce, and Legacy is very much an early game format. Some fairly radical steps were taken with the manabase to address this issue.
    Quote Originally Posted by morgan_coke View Post
    The deck ISN'T slow, that's why there's so much acceleration in it. The lifegain is for racing aggro.
    I thought the acceleration was in there because it was slow.

    BTW, you can throw all the accel you want at Astral Slide and it's still gonna be slow as hell in legacy.
    info.ninja

  7. #27

    Re: Astral Slide vs. Legacy, take 78

    georg,

    Cataclysm is better than Wrath because its so much more one-sided in this deck. One creature being left generally isn't a problem because you can just slide it out or eterna-block it with your own sliding critter. Also, the LD effect of Cataclysm is pretty trump vs. every other tier1.5-2 strategy. (thresh runs fine on 1-2 lands, and goblins runs fine off of vial) Including Chalice in the maindeck does make Cataclysm worse though because you're more likely to have multiple artifacts out.

    Honestly, that's a very good point about Unearth being a 4-of. I've always run four and just cycled early ones away and then gotten them back with a witness, at which point both cards are essentially immortal. I will say the absolute floor for minimum cyclers to support slide is 13-14, and dropping Unearth down to a 2-of puts the deck at 13. I don't know if the maindeck slot should go to 3sphere or chalice, I'll start with Chalice and then try 3sphere next. Vindicate has been very underwhelming. The effect is good, but the spell is slow at three mana non-tombable.

    Running Volrath's Stronghold costs you basically nothing and accidentally wins you some games. I completely do not understand your objection to including it.

    Expunge replaces Edge of Autumn because 11 pieces of accel is too many and the deck wanted some instant speed removal.

    I'm also confused by your suggestion of running discard + chalice. Discard is cc=1, and chalice is usually set at 0 and 1.

    I think this list is a step in the right direction:

    4x Kitchen Finks
    4x Exalted Angel

    4x Chalice of the Void

    3x Cataclysm
    3x Expunge

    3x Astral Slide
    3x Secluded Steppe
    3x Tranquil Thicket
    1x Drifting Meadow
    1x Slippery Karst

    3x Life from the Loam
    4x Eternal Witness
    1x Volrath's Stronghold
    3x Unearth

    4x Ancient Tomb
    4x Mox Diamond

    2x Flagstones of Trokair
    2x Windswept Heath
    1x Savannah
    1x Scrubland
    1x Bayou
    2x Forest
    2x Plains
    1x Swamp

    zomb,

    /flame war on

    Slide is worse vs. goblins than Rift is. But you didn't say slide sucks vs. Goblins, you said Slide sucks in Legacy. Which is an entirely different point altogether.

    So your point on 'goyf is that he's good if your opponents are going to make him big for you? Look at the cards in this deck. Unless you dredge one the three enchantments or 4-8 artifacts into the yard, goyf will NEVER grow beyond 2/3 or 3/4 at the best without your opponents' help. In case you didn't notice, this deck contains ZERO instants and three enchantments. If I wanted to depend on my opponents' decks to make my cards good I'd just run 40 Gilded Drakes and hope for Reanimator every match.

    This deck will not with any kind of reliability make goyfs bigger than 2/3 before turn 5 or 6. I can play creatures that are significantly better than 2/3's for two mana well before turn 5 or 6, so I am at a complete loss to explain why I would want to run said vanilla little early/big late creature in my deck.

    Goyf is a great creature, he is good in many, many decks. This isn't one of them. Lets compare Goyf to Angel in this deck

    Goyf's advantages:

    Can be resurrected by Unearth
    Often Big
    Costs two mana
    can attack on turn two

    Angel's Advantages:

    Gains Life
    Flies
    can be accelerated by tomb
    can attack unmorphed on turn two
    Always big

    Given the context of the decks, I like Angel better here. In testing, angel has done more vs. decks like goblins than goyf has.

  8. #28

    Re: Astral Slide vs. Legacy, take 78

    Well, with your latest list there, things change. Running Tarmogoyf in a deck packing Chalice probably isn't the optimal play simply because you want to have the opportunity to play Chalice at two to counter Goyf.

    Ignoring that, though, you're still looking at Tarmogoyf's interactions with your opponent's graveyard incorrectly. Let's say the opponent is playing Threshold, take your pick on the color. If they open with a turn one fetchland, EOT Brainstorm, and you open with some random card that hits the graveyard, Goyf is a 2/3 on turn two at least. Threshold, and blue-based decks in general, are built on the backs of instants like Force, Daze, and Brainstorm. Why not take advantage of that?

    EDIT: Accidentally hit the Submit button. Anyways, as I was saying: Threshold's design is such that it can get Tarmogoyf to a 3/4 without ever once interacting with the opponent (Instant, Sorcery, Land). Through interaction, it can often dump a creature in the graveyard on one side of the table or the other, making Goyf a 4/5. Beyond that, it has to rely on its opponent's deck, which isn't such a bad plan when many decks run enchantments (Deed) or artifacts (take your pick of any between Stax or combo). Sure, if you're goldfishing, Tarmogoyf probably isn't tremendously impressive in your deck. Do keep in mind, however, that unless your opponent is playing Energy Field.dec, things will go to the graveyard on their side. And a 3/4 for two is still ahead of the curve, making it especially important for a deck with holes in its early game.

    EDIT 2: I also felt I should point out that there is no reason why you can't run Angel and Goyf side-by-side. Using both allows you to realistically race your opponent without ever once needing Slide, which in turn, amazingly enough, eases your dependence on the graveyard. If you're attack for seven every turn, four of which is unblockable and three of which is eating the opponent's guys for breakfast, you couldn't care less if Loam gets Extirpated or Slide gets Gripped.

  9. #29

    Re: Astral Slide vs. Legacy, take 78

    Did some testing with the Chalice list. Chalice was either a) incredibly amazing, or b) fairly crappy. I think I like it better as a sideboard card, might just be my personality that I dislike its swinginess. It would be nice to have vs. Thresh main, but given that 90% of their deck is irrelevant to yours, it doesn't really matter that much. Didn't miss Edge of Autumn in the least, but with it gone I think the mana needs to be reworked as the lone swamp isn't doing much on its own and Flagstones is a lot worse with only Cataclysm to play off of. Right now I'm thinking -1 Swamp, -2 Flagstones, +1 Bayou, +1 Windswept, +1 ? Needs to be a colored source I think. I'll test a fourth Heath in that spot for now.

    I'm not opposed to running 'Goyfs alongside Angels in the Chalice slot, and I'll give it a try, but then worries about a lack of disruption become much more relevant.

  10. #30

    Re: Astral Slide vs. Legacy, take 78

    Quote Originally Posted by morgan_coke View Post
    I'm not opposed to running 'Goyfs alongside Angels in the Chalice slot, and I'll give it a try, but then worries about a lack of disruption become much more relevant.
    I generally found 4 Thoughtseize, 4 Therapy to be sufficient as disruption when backed up by a reasonable clock. Then again, I used Goyf, Doran, and Finks as my beats, and my only cycling cards were lands. While the deck was more reliant on Life from the Loam to power up Slide, it also cared less if Loam was lost since Goyf and Doran tended to plow through any surviving blockers and end the game.

    Using the list that had Chalices in it as a starting point, I'd say that dropping Cataclysm for discard of some sort, or Confinement, would be a start. Cataclysm is cute and can do a lot of damage to some decks, but Slide doesn't really have a problem with most creatures and the pseudo-Armageddon and Tranquility effects are not really relevant against a lot of decks. If you want something to cleanse the board, Akroma's Vengeance may be something to look into because it cycles and EOT delayed Slide triggers still work even in the absence of Slide. Suddenly getting back a Witness and an Angel against your opponent's lands is generally GG. I don't know, maybe I'm just underwhelmed by Cataclysm.

    Secondly, Unearth. It's nice, yes, and it gets back downed Goyfs and Witnesses, but other than that it's not very good. When I tested them, I found that they were generally better against control since it forced them to answer all of your threats twice or thrice, even if you couldn't stick a Slide. That said, it was a sideboard card at best. If you cut both Unearth and Cataclysm, you'll have room for Thoughtseize and Cabal Therapy. Trimming some other numbers will allow you to run four of both. If you do end up running the discard spells, you should probably go to +2 Bayou since having black mana on turn one becomes much more important.

  11. #31

    Re: Astral Slide vs. Legacy, take 78

    Just a new thought, if this deck leans more against RW:

    What about the RW Hedge-Mage from EVE?

    2{R/W}
    When ~ cipt, you may destroy target enchantment, if you control 2 or more plains.
    When ~ cipt, you may destroy target artifact, if you control 2 or more mountains.
    2/2

    This card seems very strong with slide, though I think it might be difficult, to get 2+ mountains/plains.

    BTW: I still like Lightning Rift more than things like Expunge :-)

  12. #32

    Re: Astral Slide vs. Legacy, take 78

    I really like the RW Hedge Mage, he's basically Hull Breach on a 2/2 stick if you can get two Plateaus in play.

    Even better though, is the GB Hedge Mage. It's like an easier to cast Witness that has a bigger body and tacks on the Ravenous Rats ability.

    I tested about 20 games each against Goblins with the previous list running both Tarmogoyf and Chalice in the spare deck slot. Chalice was the better of the two cards. I really, really cannot describe how much I wish Break Asunder wasn't unplayable. Vial is by far the most relevant card in the Goblins matchup. Red builds can just run Scrap or Duergar Hedge Mage to deal with it. Black versions can't. Tarmogoyf mainly made me realize the deck likes another creature, and that Angel sucks just as badly as he does. They're both out of the deck.

    The argument against Tarmogoyf in this deck is basically the same argument against Spiritmonger in every deck. Yes, its big. Yes, its above the curve. Yes, it kills people. But that's ALL it does. Hedge Mage is an amazing card. Disrupts the opponent, recurs your stuff, gets resurrected with Unearth.. pretty much all around amazing. And at absolute worst its a bear that gets tombacceled.

    The manabase needed some reworking to accomodate Hag Hedge Mage, which leads to this:

    4x Bayou
    4x Windswept Heath
    2x Forest
    2x Plains
    4x Ancient Tomb
    3x Secluded Steppe
    3x Tranquil Thicket
    1x Slippery Karst
    1x Drifting Meadow
    4x Mox Diamond

    If you wanted to play like the Hatfield brothers you could ditch the Forests and Plains for 4x Plateau and run the RW Hedge Mage as well, but personally, I just can't disrespect my manabase that much. Also, and more relevantly, depending on how the rules/timestamps are, you might not ever be able to deal with Blood Moon. That manabase does allow you to run Rift though. Actually, you could replace the Tombs with Plateaus. It would cost you acceleration, but allow access to both Mages. I run 4color slide in extended, so I will definitely be using both of these guys there this year.

    While looking through the old cycling cards I noticed this:

    Rapid Decay
    1B
    Instant
    Remove up to three target cards from a graveyard
    Cycling: 2

    Can't believe I missed that. This or Loaming Shaman probably belongs maindeck. I'm going to clean up and update the first post.

    EDIT: Batwing Brume is also a card that needs to be looked at given that half of the combo decks right now win through the attack phase (tokens!) in addition to all the decks that you know, win by attacking with creatures. People will attack into a fog wall to make you spend mana maintaining it. No one attacks into a Brume wall because it will kill them.

    EDIT2: Ran a quick five games vs. gobbos with the list on the first page, 4-1 blowouts. I'm sure the matchup isn't actually that good, but with Hedge-Mage and Therapy attacking Goblins' hand while Finks kept up my life total and everyone blocked, Goblins couldn't reload quick enough or put enough pressure on the Slide deck to mount an effective, continuous offense. The neo-vigilance from Slide was huge, and the Hedge Mage/Witness/Loam combination meant the deck was never short cards to cycle. Hedge Mage with two Bayous out is definitely better than Witness in this deck. Dropping it early to eat removal and Unearthing it later is pretty hawt too.
    Last edited by morgan_coke; 08-11-2008 at 12:25 PM.

  13. #33

    Re: Astral Slide vs. Legacy, take 78

    I tested this deck now a few times (though my own RGW version) and found, that u cant affort 3 colors, whily running Ancient Tomb and Chalice...

    RW Hedge Mage is hard to support to.

    Oh. And Aven Riftwatcher works far better with Slide than Kitchen Finks. And is easier to cast.

    I'm now working more on a Chalice/Trinisphere RW Rifter list, maybe with Slide, too... and things like Idyllic Tutor (instead of Enl. Tutor, just to get around Chalice@1), which can search your combo pieces and things like Oblivion Ring, Blood Moon, etc...

  14. #34
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    Re: Astral Slide vs. Legacy, take 78

    If you play without Chalice or Angel, I think there's not much reason to keep the Tombs - just accelerating Slide is not enough, and the deck needs a LOT of colored mana (witness, cycling lands etc). So I'd recommend three Birds instead, since the deck DOES need acceleration.

    Also, I think Wall of Blossoms belongs here, as your two-mana slot is very empty (even though you have Mox and Tomb/Birds, you need something).

    I was wrong about Shriekmaw...no sliding out. But if you need removal, Bone Shredder fits VERY nicely with Slide, Therapy and Unearth.

    Finally, I find Wickerbough Elder to be a tiny bit better here than Indrik - the difference between four and five mana is significant. I wouldn't play those maindeck though.
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  15. #35

    Re: Astral Slide vs. Legacy, take 78

    TheLion,

    I think you're building an entirely different deck now.

    georg,

    the two mana slot is for skipping, loam, and cycling, in that order. Wall of Blossoms is worse than every other creature already here and worse than every other card already in the deck.

    cutting lands for birds won't work because you need the lands for the mox diamonds. Also, this is a list of the cards in the deck with Tomb mana (2 or more colorless) Unearth, Expunge, Slide, Hag, Karst/Meadow, Wicker. That's 19 cards. The deck runs 36 cards that require mana investments. So Tomb directly accelerates over half of the cards in your deck that require mana. Additionally, Tomb often lets you cast two cards with 1mm or 1m casting cost on the same turn. Absolute worst case scenario, tomb taps for 1 colorless and bolts you. That rare drawback is more than offset by the extra speed Tomb provides to the rest of the deck. Birds also don't provide mana the turn they come into play. To get 3 mana on turn 2 with birds you have to play them on turn one, and they have to survive. To get 3 mana on turn 2 with Tomb, you have to play a land, then tomb. Also, tomb allows for the decks most broken plays, like t1 slide, which simply aren't possible without it.

    great call on elder, i completely missed that. and you're not wrong about shriekmaw, you can totally slide it out in response to its "sacrifice" trigger going on the stack. you cannot however, sacrifice it to a sorcery speed effect such as cabal therapy.

  16. #36

    Re: Astral Slide vs. Legacy, take 78

    george, I've tested both Birds and Wall and liked neither. Birds proved to be too fragile, while Wall proved to be too weak - and it can't really block a Goyf and survive without the help of Slide, which is problematic. Instead of those, I tested Wall of Roots and liked it quite a bit. It's relatively easy to ramp Goyf up to a 4/5, but getting it bigger takes a while. In the meantime, your 0/5 Wall can more than handle it. Plus, the Wall can make every turn without tapping and resets itself when Slid out.

    And yes, you can Slide out Shriekmaw in response to the Evoke trigger - one of the biggest reasons why Shriekmaw is attractive in this deck in the aggro matchups.

  17. #37
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    Re: Astral Slide vs. Legacy, take 78

    You guys really should be testing versions with 4 Edge of Autumn, 4 Flagstones, and 2-4 Street Wraith. If the problem with Slide is that Legacy is too fast for it, then include the "free" cyclers to speed it up. This kind of start seems pretty good against thresh, but also realistic:

    Turn 1: Cycling Land tapped
    Turn 2: Mox (pitch land), Flagstones, Astral Slide. If they went first, you have an opportunity to slide their goyf out with a free cycler and keep card parity while saving life. If you edged here, you just netted a dual land to fix mana or a basic to play around Moon effects, and another land in the graveyard to improve Loam. If you cycled a Wraith instead, then you just traded 2 life for probably 2-3 life, since there's already land in the grave and they probably cantripped on turn 1. Still digging, so it's useful.

    This also gets around spell snare, and alternatively you could be sliding out an enemy Dark Confidant on your end turn step to keep it from drawing cards and attacking.

    Also, I think the deck could benefit from a splash into black for Raven's Crime from Eventide. Let's face it: Slide has an atrocious combo matchup, but it can be improved with the right disruption tools. Between mana disruption like Wasteland and discard from Raven's Crime (and potentially Thoughtseize or Therapy or whatever), there's some power against combo. It's not going to stop a deck like SI from just going off regardless, but you could also just bring in chalice/sphere effects from the board to survive the early game against combo.

    As per the goyf argument: I think there's a valid point for playing Gumbi in any deck that runs green mana, but it's probably more important to start off with a focused machine, tuned to get the slide and/or loam engine(s) up and running as soon as possible. The power of this deck archetype has always been inevitability and card advantage combined with board control. Adding a generic creature (as big as it may be) to this deck is going to dilute it heavily because every slot is important. If there's room, then throw them in the list at the last minute, but don't just focus on Goyf because it's available.
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  18. #38

    Re: Astral Slide vs. Legacy, take 78

    zomb,

    quit agreeing with me, flame war wuz fun

    smile,

    there are two problems with the edge/flagstones plan.
    1) it makes the deck very white - the deck is base green (witness, finks) and wants to make its second color black, mainly just splashing white for teeg and slide.
    2) edge of autumn isn't a spell you want to cast early, and you can't cast it late. you don't want to cast it early because its worse than your other acceleration - mox and tomb. if you want a land fetcher you want elder because it affects the board and nukes bridges

    wraith suffers from a different problem - it doesn't do anything as a spell. The cyclers in the deck now either tap for mana, recur with loam and enable mox or they resurrect card advantage dudes or the kill stuff. wraith does a much better job at cycling, and speeds the deck up by half a turn, but he also puts more pressure on the life total and doesn't do much of anything besides cycle. That said, i'd love to see a version of the deck that ran him, what did you have in mind?

    On another note, i've been testing Raven's Crime in extended (EVE came out on modo today, Hag rulez) and its a devastating effect, pretty much emptying their hand in 1 - 2 turns, but it isn't a 4-of card either and isn't that great in the early game. In other words, it can lock combo out, but it won't stop them from going off.

  19. #39
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    georgjorge's Avatar
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    Re: Astral Slide vs. Legacy, take 78

    I'd find a version with Flagstones, Edge and Wraith very interesting - I think not doing anything if not cycyled is fine.

    As to Tomb, however: I wouldn't exactly call using Tomb mana to cycle a card "acceleration" - it helps a bit, but it would help a lot more to CAST something on the first and second turn. And the two-mana cyclers would often be reserved for after Slide, in my experience. Hag is also not accelerated by it on the second turn (which is the crucial one) since you need two Bayous (more lands if you draw basics instead). Also, I think the life loss is relevant - imagine playing a fetchland turn one, and a Tomb for Life from the Loam on turn two. You have taken four damage over the first two turns, and will at least take two or four more from Tomb over the game. Doing that against Stompy variants or Tempo Thresh seems very risky to me.

    I agree that Birds may not be so good in here, although I think you shouldn't really aim for first turn Slide (rare occasion) but for three mana on turn two for Hag, Finks, or Slide. That's why I think Wall of Roots is too slow (it's the second turn that needs acceleration most. If you don't like Birds, two Chrome Mox maybe (can imprint unneeded cycle cards) ? No synergy, but acceleration.
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  20. #40
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    Re: [Deck] Astral Slide vs. Legacy, take 78

    Birds are so unreliable. Swords to Plowshares should not double as Stone Rain. But what about Exploration for acceleration? Seems good for a land-heavy deck like this one.

    If I were to take a Slide list to a Legacy tournament right now, here's what I would probably bring:

    4 Flagstones of Trokair
    4 Savannah
    3 Forest
    2 Plains
    4 Tranquil Thicket
    4 Secluded Steppe
    3 Wasteland
    1 Volrath's Stronghold

    4 Mox Diamond
    3 Exploration

    4 Life from the Loam
    4 Astral Slide
    3 Solitary Confinement

    1 Street Wraith
    4 Edge of Autumn
    2 Decree of Justice

    3 Gaddock Teeg
    4 Eternal Witness
    4 Aven Riftwatcher

    I would most definitely splash into a third color if I had time to test and tune the list, but for simplicity's sake I like this build. It has sufficient acceleration to reach 3 mana by turn 2, which is fundamental for the deck. On the play, that's the difference between having slide+free cycler for a turn 1 lackey or having a Riftwatcher available for said lackey. It's also possible to drop a confinement on turn 2 to stay alive and then witness it back and recast it later, or if you're really lucky you hit loam already and you have confinement+loam.

    In order to appreciate Edge of Autumn, you really have to just play with it. Even without Flagstones, it's just so good. You have loam, you can afford to throw lands away, and you can even cycle in response to LD spells/wasteland activations. In a tri-color build, cycling a Flagstones will thin your deck, get the color you're missing, and cantrip. If Flagstones tapped for blue mana, 4 edge/4 flagstones would be played in every single Thresh deck.
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