[Project] Rebuilding ATS - It needs to be done

[troopatroop]

ATS was a deck with alot of history. It can be traced all the way back to late '02 in a metagame filled with Dragon and Mud and Landstill. Made originally from an FEB varient, it was a lock deck designed around creatures and Survival. Even then, in a highly powered metagame it was able to rise to a tier 1.5 status. That is extremely good. This is currently a project to rise this deck from it's ashes and put it back upon it's formal petestal. Obviously I'm biased to believe that ATS is amazing. It's my pet deck, and I was really sad to see it fall out of favor. Hopefully we can do something to give it new life.

Here are the neccesities to any ATS deck.

-18 lands-
4 Tropical island
6 Green saclands
1-2 Taiga
6-7 Forests

-Other Stuff-
4 Survival
4 Tradewind
4 BOP
2 Quirion ranger

1 rofellos
1 squee
1 genesis
1 anger
1 seedborn muse
1 masticore
1 guilded drake

Everything else can be mix-matched to your preferance. Obviously, I've desecrated what was once law among ATS players and made a very tight list sound very open ended, but innovation never hurt, and we could use some. Those cards total to 39 cards, so you've got 21 cards to play with. Most people would prolly go with the Control route, adding Brainstorm, FOW, and Stifle, which has been great in the past. You could add in Red with FTK, B-Wish, and... hell... lightning bolt! Why not! Black could be used for Therapy, Duress, and Plague, or White for EnlightenedTutor and worship... the possibilities are endless.

Go Ahead, Post a list that you think would work well.

[Bryant Cook]

Drake and masticore down, drop that shit like it's hawt.
+ 1 Shooter
+1 Zealot
+ 1 FTK
If running white + 2 elephant pope.

+1

[Peter_Rotten]

I have a bad feeling about this thread since it only barely provides enough direction for a focused discussion. However, I am willing to leave it open if the community finds it worthwhile and posts some constructive and intelligent material other than just "hey, look at this list."

WATCHED

[bigbear102]

I believe that taking this deck in the direction of RGSA with blue splash would be the correct decision in this metagame right now. Having access to Burning Wish is crazy, and you really need FTK to deal with gobbos consistently. Having the quick finisher in Deranged Hermit is also good. i would add 4 FTK, 1 Hermit, 4 Wish. Anything else should be to deal with combo, slowing it down enough to lock with tradewind. Playing a Glowrider version would be good for that, but then you open yourself up to 4 colors, and a lot of hate.

[bigguyinblack]

I played ATS for years and lost to 3 things. 1. Combo in all shapes and sizes. Your opponent can often go off before a lock is achieved and 4-8 counterpells is usually not enough disruption to stop it. 2. Goblins. None of my mana acelleration lived and a couple of 0/5 walls were not enough to stem the tide. While there were sideboard answers they often did not show up in time. Facing 4 wastelands didn't help either. 3. Pithing Needle. Turn 1 needle for SotF and turn 2-3 needle for Tradewind was usually enough to shut me down cold.
We would need to deal with all 3 of these common problems in one deck before ATS can be brought to it's former glory. 2-3 sex monkey's main would help vs Pithing Needle, would kill random Aether Vial's, and would help vs other random equipment. They also can block and kill goblins. I'm not sure how to deal with Solidarity. Eye of the Storm is a good answer but without E-Tutor it's not a consistant one.
As long as goblins is the DTB RGSA may be the better Survival deck to play.

[Efreet]

i hope to see the reborn of ATS!!!

so, the biggest problem of first ATS (diablos' list at page 7 of the last topic on the deck..) is that suffer card as:

MEDDLING MAGE
PITHING NEEDLE

all other cards are not a really problem, cause we can always find an answer to the hate..

but naming Soft with that 2 cards mean that we need a new plan over "topdeck".. consider also that now gro variants will rise up, and everybody play with needle in sideboard if not in maindeck..

so the answer are:

1) play as RGSA, so we play spell and creatures that let us play even without survival in play.. so baloth, ftk and wishes.. the only matter is that we don't have true answer to combo..

2) play as old ATS, so toolkit in side with maindeck enlightened tutors that provide to have always survival in play.. but we know the hate is too hard..

3) play in combo-style, with welder or as FEB so we always have an alternative way to play.. the problem is that we should get out some stuff typical of ATS, as seedborn and probably the 4th rider to set up the alternative plan, so we lose the really meaning of the deck..

ATS time ago suffered against Landstill and Solidarity, but all other deck was pretty a bye..

now ATS suffer Solidarity, Burn, Deadguy Ale, Gro variants, Rabid wombat and TheGame variants.. so the restyling of the deck seems a miracle..

first of all we have to choice what color can find place between blue and green.. better, we have to find what color give us more answer to the current metagame.. we also have to consider some cards like Stp, WoBlossom, lightning bolt, and so on with everything that some time ago was "bleah" for ATS..

i personally thought that

-3 enlightened tutor
-1 gilded drake
+2 baloth
+2 flametongue kavu

was a good way to win even without survival, but the problem is that those two guys don't help when we really suffer, against combo and i think gro.. so i wasn't considering those no more, concentrating more on the real needs of the deck..

i think that everybody joining the conversation is a good ATS player, playing it for so much time that every reply have a sense..

so first of all, what kind of solution you used before this thread to make your ATS better?


ps: sorry for the english, i'm italian so not so good in english conversation..

[Zilla]

Moved to Developmental, because it is. - Zilla

[Slag]

Here's a potentially blasphemous thought: How about, instead of using survival as a toolbox - enabler, we take a cue from survival advantage (while not quite plagerizing it) and use it as a consistancy engine? I would suggest removing a lot of one - of cards, like seedborn muse and perhaps even rofellos, and throw in full sets of mogg fanatic and basking rootwalla. Fanatic can kill goblins or utility critters, and rootwalla can both trade early and beat late. Ideally, you would use survival to crank out solid critter after solid critter early on, then drop tradewind and tidy up the midgame. The orangutans are probably a good idea based on the number of game-swinging artifacts in use.

[troopatroop]

Sorry Zilla, My mistake.

The route I've decided to try is the black one, which has proved rather interesting. Duress/Therapy has been much better against solidarity and goblins as well as Plague in the board helping against goblins. this is my current test build.

///mana///
3 Trop
3 Bayou
2 Taiga
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
8 Forest
1 Chrome Mox
4 BOP
4 Wall of Roots
2 Ranger
1 Rofellos

///Basics///
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Stifle
4 Survival
2 Sylvan Library
4 Tradewind Rider

///Toolbox///
1 Seedborn Muse
1 Spike Feeder
1 Masticore
1 Squee
1 Genesis
1 Anger
1 Guilded Drake
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Uktabi
2 FTK

SB: 4 Plague
4 ITEOC
4 Duress
3 Back to Basics

There's my first experimental build. I'm looking more for ideas rather than argument, So post different lists and maybe we can think of something completely new.

[Pyrokinesis]

With black in the deck why not add a Plague Spitter as a game one Engineered Plague against Goblins? There aren't many 1/1's in the list, and even then you wouldn't care much about them at that point. Plus, I don't think you should have Back to Basics in the board unless you add a swamp and mountain... in your current list it locks you down as much if not more than your nonbasics-happy opponent.

[troopatroop]

well with quirion ranger and numerous mana producing creatures you usually do pretty well with a B2B on the board.

[Pyrokinesis]

And Plague Spitter...?



P.S: Line-by-line BBS conversation is never a good idea. Just saying.

[martyr]

Why not use it as a Madness enabler? This, plus Wild Mongrel, plus a few extra copies of Zombie Infestation let you crank out Rootwallas and Arrogant Wurms like nobody's business, not to mention setting you up for a pretty steamy mid-late game (with stuff like Incarnations, maybe a Psychatog or two, and recurring Squees).

Something like:

4x Fyndhorn Elves
4x Birds of Paradise/Llanowar Elves/Elves of Deep Shadow
4x Basking Rootwalla
4x Arrogant Wurm
4x Wild Mongrel

4x Survival of the Fittest
2x Psychatog
1x Genesis
1x Wonder
1x Anger
1x Valor (woohoo!)
1x Brawn
2x Uktabi Orangutan
2x Squee, Goblin Nabob

2x Duress
4x Cabal Therapy

21x more Mana sources

That leaves you room for modification, and your creatures will be ridiculous.

[Slay]

Dark Confidant is possibly the most brutal card you can put in the deck. Your life total does not matter, except against burn. Try it out, you'll see how ridiculous it is to draw 2 cards a turn, because one of them will be a bomb.
-Slay

[noobslayer]

Well, if you are tutoring stuff up with survival, and are already considernig white for enlightened tutor (some, not all builds), then why not play meddling mage? He foils combo long enough for you to get the tradewind rider lock. Or, how about maybe four maindecked swords to plowshares? It seems we need some form of removal, as is evident by our DTB's. I'd say go four colors, neglecting black, sorry troopa. Ftk and Sharpshooter are reason enough alone. Toss burning wish into the mix and you may be beginning to exhume a once dead pain in the ass.

[Di]

First, people realize this is a thread on ATS. Keep that in mind when posting a decklist so you can make somewhat of an attempt at keeping the discussion on track.

Now, to address the many issues ATS has, and the ones brought up by this thread:

I don't have any new build right now as I've been working exclusively with Turboland, but I still have an idea on properly constructing the deck. The first thing to do when constructing is keeping the main issues in mind(I believe bigguyinblack brought these up):

1. Build to beat Goblins.
2. Build to beat combo.
3. Build to beat Pithing Needle, Meddling Mage, and Goblin Sharpshooter.
4. Build to stop turn 1 Goblin Lackey.

And of course, the most important of them all:

5. Build to do all the above game 1.

That being said, I believe the deck requires in the maindeck atleast:

- Turn 1 drops for Goblin Lackey.
- 4 to 6 Walls to stop the early aggro assault.
- A solid draw engine outside of Survival.
- A fast clock outside the Tradewind lock.
- Maindeck answers to bad cards.

The deck needs to be designed now to accomodate a more aggro-oriented metagame. Control is still strong, so in addition to solving the problem of aggro with quick defense, a good handful of bombs that will put control on it's heels.

The lack of creatures on turn 1 you want to block with make it a problem. Unfortunately, I don't believe the black splash solves that problem very well, aiming at troopatroop's build. Cabal Therapy isn't going to do anything against an opening Lackey when Force of Will is going to. A drawn Cabal Therapy also won't help you when they toss a Disenchant post-board at Engineered Plague, so despite having Engineered Plague, as well as proactive cards for Solidarity, I need to dismiss it. Running Force of Will allows you to cut the number of crappy 1cc creatures needed to help defend against Lackey as well, not to mention is a better midgame draw to hit topdecks and the like. A 1cc that I do consider is Scavenger Folk. This is because it fulfills two roles in stopping Lackey, and hitting Pithing Needle and Aether Vials. In addition to Uktabi Orangutan and Viridian Zealot, artifacts are dealt with a bit better. Negative on Elvish Lyrist, however, as enchantments aren't nearly as prevalent in the current metagame.

I just believe the answers with black can just as easily be solved with UGr. No, there aren't cards like Engineered Plague, but it isn't all that difficult to find answers without fucking the manabase.

The maindeck Walls will obviously consist of Wall of Roots and Wall of Blossoms. I've even debated a Wall of Mulch(explained more below) instead of a 2nd Wall of Blossoms for the added ability to have Wall of Roots draw cards as well. Either way, they all answer to turn 2 Lackey, and hold off aggro rather well within the first few turns of the game, at least long enough to establish control.

Card advantage outside of Survival, to find Survival and still be able to function well without it. The answer here isn't Burning Wish, despite what some of you may think. Burning Wish works in RGSA because that deck is an aggro deck, and thus lacks answers to problematic cards. It can get Tsunami for Solidarity game 1 because it doesn't have Force of Will and friends to slow them down. RGSA also doesn't have Brainstorm to find Survival or another answer, so it needs to rely on a source outside Survival to do something when it isn't on the table.

I'm finding now that I still want more search than Brainstorm, and do like Sylvan Library, but dislike how it doesn't block. Sylvan means little to me if it's all I can cast on turn 2 against Goblins. I would personally run creatures that can cantrip or something in this slot, which again brings me to Wall of Mulch. If you're able to run Wall of Blossoms and Wall of Mulch together, and then run Wall of Roots, I think an excellent line of defense while digging down the deck can be made. Against control they just cycle, and if you need to do it just Genesis them back every turn for another card. I dislike Dark Confident in the deck though due to a range of 4+cc creatures that are required in the deck. Hitting FTK and Tradewind and others will hurt against any aggro deck. It isn't a risk I want to take with cards like that in here.

The fast clock is easily solved with an array of Ravenous Baloth, FTK, and maybe Masticore. Running a healthy dose of them gives you chance to just go aggro and kill people, and then happen to be able to play a bit of defense.

The maindeck answers to cards are simple. Pithing Needle is shut down by Uktabi, Zealot, and Scavenger Folk, which should be plenty. The build I last ran already had a decent game against Needle anyway, because just throwing down Baloths and FTKs can just win games on it's own. Meddling Mage is a bit worse. You have FTK and Tradewind, as well as Goblin Sharpshooter. Shooter gets a bit better if Wall of Mulch is run for untapping triggers. Goblin Sharpshooter has always been a big deal, so I would keep either a Gilded Drake or Caller of the Claw maindeck to handle it. It's a meta dependant slot though. If Reanimator and the like are around, Gilded Drake is just dumb. Caller does have that nice option to just completely fuck people up after Sharpshooter or Wrath of God. Again, Wall of Mulch is pretty cool with it, because it will turn your useless defenders into 2/2 attackers if it's time to smash face.

I'll be testing a list based off what I mentioned here, then get back to people. I also need to type a rather long essay right now, so I can't finish what I want to say here, but when I have more time I'll come back with sideboard options and stuff. Maybe even candy.

[Finn]

I have been wondering why no one has tried to include Muddle the Mixture. It isn't terrible as a counterspell and you can always pitch it to Force of Will, but most importantly, you can go back to 3 colors and reign in that absurd mana base by replacing both E. tutors and Mana Leaks with this as it counters other counterspells and transmutes for Survival. While you are at it, you could always transmute for Naturalize to take down Pithing Needles post board or possibly Pyroclasm in case of emergency. Who knows, but it has so many pertinent uses that I would think it deserves serious consideration.

[Citrus-God]

For some reason, I feel that AEther Vial belongs in this deck. If Vial is in play, while SotF is active, I can synergize my whole entire deck with AEther Vial, have some mana open to drop down more threats. Yes it's slow, and it's slow against Combo. So please don't sue me...

To beat Goblins. Outside of Sharpshooter and Needle, Goblins is actually a very good match up for you. I have played against Goblins so many times, it's just sad you end up killing them constantly. When I played the Enlighten Tutor build, all I used was just Absolute Law.

Control; I don't know about this one actually. One of te reasons why I liked Vial is because it can play around things Control likes doing to you; counters.

Combo; Vial as I mentioned way to slow against Combo. ATS from the past itself is actually decent against Combo. I liked the Enlighten Tutor build in the past. When I played against Solidarity, I always ended up winning with In the Eyes of Chaos, along with Tradewind Rider, and little buddies to help me out. From there I just randomly locked him. Sad to say, that was all just luck, and no SotF on the board.

Pikula, Needle, and Sharpshooter... err... I really don't know what to say to that. Maybe for Sharpshooter, we could go back to the Enlighten Tutor build, and run Absolute Law. But to tell the truth, it's now worth it...

[Sims]

...which again brings me to Wall of Mulch. If you're able to run Wall of Blossoms and Wall of Mulch together, and then run Wall of Roots, I think an excellent line of defense while digging down the deck can be made. Against control they just cycle, and if you need to do it just Genesis them back every turn for another card.

I understand the ability to toss out dying WoRs and WoBs for cards, but would that Carven Caryatid or whatever the fux it is be a possible choice? An extra G on WoB for a 2/5 body isn't horrible, as it actually kills Goblins instead of blocking them. However you lose the ability to toss away your other Walls for cards. Comments? Is the extra draw of throwing away dying WoRs or WoBs with lethal on them that much better than a slightly more expensive WoB that will actually kill all the creatures in Goblins (barring a King on the table)?

[Di]

I understand the ability to toss out dying WoRs and WoBs for cards, but would that Carven Caryatid or whatever the fux it is be a possible choice? An extra G on WoB for a 2/5 body isn't horrible, as it actually kills Goblins instead of blocking them. However you lose the ability to toss away your other Walls for cards. Comments? Is the extra draw of throwing away dying WoRs or WoBs with lethal on them that much better than a slightly more expensive WoB that will actually kill all the creatures in Goblins (barring a King on the table)?

I've tested Carven Caryatid and I really, really hated the 3cc. It bugged the hell out of me. Not being able to stop a turn 2 Piledriver or something from the draw sucks hardcore. I don't believe killing attackers is all that big of a deal if they aren't dealing me damage, because it just buys time until I setup a lock. Plus, I think the ability to cantrip off of a dying Wall of Roots or Blossoms is really good. +2 cards from a Wall of Blossoms that holds off a Lackey or something is titties in my book.

For some reason, I feel that AEther Vial belongs in this deck. If Vial is in play, while SotF is active, I can synergize my whole entire deck with AEther Vial, have some mana open to drop down more threats. Yes it's slow, and it's slow against Combo. So please don't sue me...

Aether Vial would be run over mana production creatures. As good as it is, those creatures are used to abuse Survival of the Fittest much faster. Aether Vial doesn't lead you to survivaling more often; it can just dump a Tradewind into play a bit slower than the deck usually can. I find the deck's speed is already too good to lose creatures for. I guess the issue is that the bulk of creatures that want to be played the most round out at 4, so Vial's potential won't come out until it's at that counter. By then, I'll have more than enough mana to do what I like.

Pikula, Needle, and Sharpshooter... err... I really don't know what to say to that. Maybe for Sharpshooter, we could go back to the Enlighten Tutor build, and run Absolute Law. But to tell the truth, it's now worth it...

I actually don't think using the Enlightened Tutor build is that bad. After playing at the Grand Prix and cutting basic lands for nonbasic lands, I realized that Wasteland isn't nearly as prevalent as I originally believed. Yes, Wasteland is still seen in a million decks and yes Life from the Loam decks will be more prevelant in the metagame soon, but the main complaint people had with the manabase was due to Wasteland rape, something I honestly don't see it as popular as I once thought. If I can run a deck that is even more manahungry that this at the Grand Prix with twice as many nonbasics and still perform well, I think the older manabase has a shot at doing well now.