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Thread: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)

  1. #1
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    [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)

    This is my current decklist, as of 10/2/08:

    B/u/w ANT

    // Lands
    4 [ON] Polluted Delta
    2 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
    2 [ON] Flooded Strand
    2 [A] Underground Sea
    1 [R] Scrubland
    1 [R] Tundra
    1 [ON] Swamp (4)
    1 [P3] Island (3)

    // Spells
    4 [TE] Lotus Petal
    4 [MR] Chrome Mox
    4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 [R] Dark Ritual
    4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
    4 [FNM] Brainstorm
    4 [6E] Mystical Tutor
    4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
    3 [4E] Ad Nauseam
    1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
    1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
    4 [7E] Duress
    4 [PS] Orim's Chant
    1 [PS] Rushing River

    // Sideboard
    SB: 1 [A] Plains (1)
    SB: 4 [GP] Repeal
    SB: 4 [6E] Serenity
    SB: 1 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
    SB: 1 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
    SB: 4 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt

    The information below is the original post from 9/19/08:

    Since there is alot of dicussion about the card Ad Nauseam, since most of the decks being presented in the brainstorming thread do not fit directly into the FT, TES, or SI threads, and since there are so many different ideas going on in that thread, I've decided to create a thread specifically for variations resembling mine.

    First, just to start this off, is a list:

    B/u ANT

    Lands (14)
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Bloodstained Mire
    4 Underground Sea
    2 Swamp

    Spells (46)
    4 Chrome Mox
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Cabal Ritual
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Mystical Tutor
    4 Infernal Tutor
    4 Ad Nauseam
    2 Tendrils of Agony
    4 Duress
    4 Pact of Negation

    The deck can easily splash a 3rd color if it needs to... like green for Krosan Grip or red for Red Elemental Blast. The B/u list above is a nice starting shell to work with. Once I (we) figure out exactly what the deck wants/needs, we can work on splashing colors and/or making adjustments. I also don't have a sideboard built yet for the same reasons.

    This thread is for archtypes of storm combo specifically building around Ad Nauseam (without molding prexisting combo decks around the card). This thread is also for builds more closely resembling the list(s) in the opening post... builds with 8 0cc creatures and Culling/Diabolic, for example, should probably go in a different thread.

    The general construction of the decklist above includes: 14 lands, 20 accelerants, 4 Brainstorm, 8 tutors, 4 engine cards, 2 win conditions, and 8 protection spells.

    I'll go through some card breakdowns:

    14 lands may be too much but I feel comfortable with 14 lands and 8 shuffle effects. I can see the deck dropping to 12 lands if it really needed to.

    Chrome Mox and Lotus Petal should be unquestionable given that 0cc artifact mana is very strong with AdN.

    Dark Ritual and Cabal Ritual produce alot of black mana, which is exactly what AdN + Tendrils wants. It is arguable that Rite of Flame could replace Cabal Ritual in a red splash, though I'd still favor Cabal Ritual because I think black mana is more valuable.

    LED/Infernal Tutor is very strong. They accelerate very well into AdN, as well as after AdN resolves. Sometimes they may be dead if you have AdN already in hand... even if you do, you still have other cards to win the game for you, and LED/IT is still a strong backup plan if it gets countered or after AdN resolves.

    Mystical Tutor is the strongest tutor the deck has access to, IMO. "U: search for protection, AdN, Dark Ritual, whatever you need" is exactly what the deck wants. It is basically a 1cc setup spell that enables the next turn win.

    We're already in blue, Brainstorm with fetchlands is far too strong to not be included. Taking a page out of FT, Brainstorm + 8 fetchlands is really strong.

    4 Ad Nauseams shouldn't be questioned. The deck wins when it resolves AdN and always wants to see AdN. Multiple AdN's is only bad if the first AdN resolves, which is irrelevant anyway.

    An interesting thing that you'll notice is Pact of Negation replacing Orim's Chant. With AdN replacing IGG, the deck doesn't need to rely on the protection from Chant (to make the engine good). AdN wins once resolved and Pact makes sure AdN resolves.

    Pact of Negation is very strong. The deck plays setup cards like Mystical Tutor, which usually don't get countered, and then plays AdN on the following turn. Since AdN wins when resolved, the deck only worries about resolving AdN. Pact does this perfectly for 0 mana. This can quicken the win by a full turn with little consequence.

    Duress sets up the protection wall; Duress lets you know whether or not you can win [through Pact] in games where you slowplay (Landstill or Threshold).

    Mystical Tutor enables consistent Duress + Pact.

    Duress + Pact has been extremely strong in testing.

    ----

    The deck can easily cut the lands down to 12 and Tendrils down to 1 to fit more cards... I'm just not sure what cards it needs right now. I think 1 IGG, 1 EtW, 1 bounce spell, and several other cards are worth tying out.

    The deck can also splash for a 3rd color, whichever color would benefit the deck most (mainly via sideboard options). A 3rd (or more) color splashes are welcome. I figured B/u was a very solid starting point for working with the archtype.

    I'll add more content to the OP as more content comes in.

    For now, my current deviation from the starting list I posted is:

    B/U/r ANT

    // Lands
    4 [ON] Polluted Delta
    4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
    4 [R] Underground Sea
    1 [R] Badlands
    1 [CST] Swamp (1)

    // Spells
    4 [TE] Lotus Petal
    4 [MR] Chrome Mox
    4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 [R] Dark Ritual
    4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
    4 [FNM] Brainstorm
    4 [6E] Mystical Tutor
    4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
    4 [4E] Ad Nauseam
    1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
    1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
    4 [7E] Duress
    4 [FUT] Pact of Negation

    // Sideboard
    SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
    SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
    SB: 4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
    SB: 1 [ON] Chain of Vapor
    SB: 1 [TSP] Wipe Away
    SB: 4 [4E] Red Elemental Blast

    This will most likely change... I'm simply showing what new development I'm working on right now.
    Last edited by Hanni; 10-02-2008 at 04:22 PM.

  2. #2

    Re: B/u/x AdN-T (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)

    Hi,

    Some things I like to point out.

    1: Your manabase. It looks quite unfocussed. You don't need the full complement of Fetchlands. 6 fetchlands with Brainstorm is enought. You don't need to use deckthinning, because additional lands are zero damage of AN, and fetchlands do damage you. I would also play at least an Island. The fist turns you want to Brainstorm/ Mystical Tutor. If you can fetch an Island turn one you can better deal with Magus or Wasteland. On top of that your rituals produce B. So after you used AN a single black mana is enough, but sometimes you need more U( for Mystical Tutor+Brainstorm or something)I would play 14 lands something like this.

    4 Polluted Delta
    1 Flooded Strand
    1 Bloodstained Mire
    3 Underground Sea
    3 Island
    2 Swamp

    11 lands produce B turn land and 12 U. 7 swamps and 8 Islands.

    2: I would play another wincondtion other than AN, and the choice would be Ill-Gotten Gains. It ups the turn 1 kills a little and wins without damaging your lifetotal, which might be important against fast decks. You could probably remove a AN or Tendrils for it.

    3: Pact of Negation is nice but doesnt combo well with Lion's Eye Diamond. Has it ever come up in testing?

    BB

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    Re: B/u/x AdN-T (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)

    With the second list I posted, the B/u/r version, some of your concerns are addressed, Benie Bederios.

    I think 8 fetchlands is fine... even without fetching, it provides protection against Wasteland and makes grabbing the land you want more consistent. A 1-of Island isn't necessarily a bad idea though, I could drop 1 Undergound Sea for 1 Island without much problem. I usually don't put more than 3 lands into play (the usual is 2), so at worst I'm seeing 3 life loss from fetchlands, which isn't that bad.

    Saying that more lands are good with AdN is wrong: you're not worried about how many cards AdN draws, you're only worried about hitting the right cards to win. All an extra land does is cause a dead flip, since it's going to be a dead card in hand. 0 life loss, 0 relevant card drawn.

    I do agree that deck thinning is irrelevant, since again, it doesn't matter if you do or don't draw lands with AdN. That's not why I'm running fetchlands, though.

    The deck does have another win condition in Empty the Warrens, which also happens to be strong against countermagic (except Stifle). The deck can easily generate 5-6 storm to make a turn 1-3 EtW lethal without relying on AnD. IGG is susceptible to countermagic moreso than EtW, which is why I prefer to run EtW over IGG maindeck. I do run 1 IGG sideboard though, along with 4 Leylines.

    I've yet to have an issue with Pact of Negation, honestly. It does what it's intended to do. It has no less negative synergy with LED than FoW would. Pact sits in hand to protect casting AdN. The 0 mana cost is one of the main reasons I use the card... if it cost 1 mana, I'd run Red Elemental Blast, Orim's Chant, or even Thoughtseize in its place.

    If I need proactive disruption before I cast AdN (like in a situation where I would need to resolve LED/IT to grab EtW), I still have Duress.

    The fact that Mystical Tutor can grab both Duress/Pact prior to going off makes the protection very consistent.

    ---

    So I'll try cutting 1 Underground Sea for 1 Island in my B/u/r list and see how it goes.

    On a sidenote, this deck can be called ANT for short, since that's easier than AdN-T. ANT fits right in with the other easy acronyms like FT, TES, and SI. Could a mod rename the thread to ANT instead of AdN-T, please?

  4. #4
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    Re: B/u/x AdN-T (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)

    Some players in the Spanish Inquisition Thread are working in a version witch 0cc creatures (robots or kobolds), Culling the Weak, Diabolic Intent and Rainbow Lands.

    Perhaps you can take ideas from it.
    http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...t=6099&page=18

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    Re: B/u/x AdN-T (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)

    -B/U/r is probably going to be the right set of colors. Red has EtW, Burning Wish, REB, Shusher, and mana acceleration (if we chose to use it). The deck needs answers to hate, and red can do that.

    -8 Fetches are fine. Guaranteeing shuffle with Brainstorm is too important. It opens the third color up very consistently too. It avoids waste. The lifeloss is not as relevant as many might think.

    -AnD-T decks can afford to be heavy on land. This seems like an important part of AnD, as it gives you options that most TPS decks can't afford. Land is consistent, reusable, uncounterable mana-production. The only reason not to have too many lands in AnD-T is because it minimizes your business spells in hand pre-AnD. The more protection we choose to run, the more land we should run in this deck. Also, Brainstorm mitigates a high-land count.

    -I love mystical tutor in this deck. Remember that you can run 1-of's-- even 1-of protection spells too. A single FoW, for example, may have a place in the deck.




    peace,
    4eak

  6. #6

    Re: B/u/x AdN-T (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)

    Quote Originally Posted by 4eak View Post
    I love mystical tutor in this deck. Remember that you can run 1-of's-- even 1-of protection spells too. A single FoW, for example, may have a place in the deck.
    Why tutor for FoW when u can tutor for Pact of Negation? If you don't have AdN in hand, u'd obviously tutor for it. If you do have it in hand, you obviously use the counter to protect your AdN.

    If your AdN resolves, you win anyway.

    FoW also have the potential to lose you 5 "business cards" if you flip it up first when you cast AdN.


    Btw. I wouldn't worry too much about breaking AdN... But i'll leave that discussion some where else. (Can we have a thread dedicated on whether it'll be banned or not? Later on, we can see who's right who's wrong just for fun).

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    Re: B/u/x AdN-T (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post
    Saying that more lands are good with AdN is wrong: you're not worried about how many cards AdN draws, you're only worried about hitting the right cards to win. All an extra land does is cause a dead flip, since it's going to be a dead card in hand. 0 life loss, 0 relevant card drawn.

    Could this warrant a spot or few for Mox Diamonds? That way you can turn dead land-draws into storm and rainbow mana. Chrome Mox is strictly better before Ad Nauseam with this low land count, still, but Mox Diamonds could make your AdN draws a bit better.

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    Re: B/u/x AdN-T (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)

    With a 14 land manabase, Mox Diamond is going to be worthless before you cast AdN. Mox Diamond is only useful after you've cast AdN, at which point it doesn't matter anyways because you won. I've only fizzled after resolving AdN in a couple goldfishes out of about a hundred. It's not worth running Mox Diamond.

    You draw alot of cards with AdN and you don't need most of them. Pitching excess Duress/Pacts/etc is usually not a problem for Chrome Mox after you resolve AdN. Chrome Mox is strictly better than Mox Diamond and the deck does not need any additional acceleration (especially not Mox Diamond, anyway). 20 accelerants have been plenty for me in testing.

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    Re: B/u/x AdN-T (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post
    With a 14 land manabase, Mox Diamond is going to be worthless before you cast AdN. Mox Diamond is only useful after you've cast AdN, at which point it doesn't matter anyways because you won.
    If that is the case, I hear you. How many cards you draw by average from Ad Nauseam with this list?
    And do you always cast it during your own turn?

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    Re: B/u/x AdN-T (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)

    How many cards you draw by average from Ad Nauseam with this list?
    It's completely random everytime I cast it. Sometimes I can draw 20 cards, sometimes I just hit double AdN for 10 lifeloss and can only draw 5 cards. It also depends on what my current life total is at, as well. If I have 18-20 life, I can easily draw 10-15 cards. If I'm at around 12 life or so, I can usually go for 7-12 cards.

    Regardless, there are very few times where I cast Ad Nauseam and fizzle.

    So far in testing, I've cast Ad Nauseam in my mainphase everytime. Casting it on the opponent's end of turn invalidates Pact of Negation as protection. The storm count generated in the mainphase is also relevant quite often. Honestly, the card would be more broken as a Sorcery since it would make Burning Wish > Mystical Tutor.

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    Re: B/u/x AdN-T (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)

    @Boogy_Boy


    My main point is that 4x Mystical is very powerful because it allows you to run singletons. I used FoW just as an example--not because I'm saying it absolutely must be in this deck. My exact words were:

    I love mystical tutor in this deck. Remember that you can run 1-of's-- even 1-of protection spells too. A single FoW, for example, may have a place in the deck.
    It was merely an example, so please keep that under consideration.


    As to your specific criticism of FoW:

    The idea of running FoW in a Tendrils combo deck, even with a card like AdN or Confidant, is not an uncommon idea. Vintage in particular does this all the time, and I suspect that as TPS begins to speed up in Legacy you'll see more reasons to play protection like FoW in storm combo. This deck doesn't always win on first turn, and sometimes the unique protection that FoW can offer is necessary and difficult to substitute.

    While I definitely think PoN deserves to be in this deck, that doesn't mean a single FoW is out of the question. FoW is versatile where PoN is not; you can choose to play control for a single turn where PoN can't. Duress, in large part, does mitigate the possible losses of Pacting into a control deck, but there are still cases where FoW would be very useful where PoN wouldn't.

    For example, Combo vs. Combo, there are times when Duress isn't as strong as a counter. PoN, unfortunately, is a counter used in win-now situations exclusively, and it doesn't play control. I look at PoN as very specific offensive PRO-active disruption on the stack, and sometimes the deck could use a single defensive turn. FoW can do things that PoN can't. Remember that Duress doesn't kill Brainstorm protected hands, and it is here that FoW does what few cards can.

    I certainly don't mean to say FoW must be in the deck, but it could be an appropriate card in the right metagame.

    Mystical makes for versatile decks and versatile sideboards (FoW was just one of many possible cards it could grab).



    peace,
    4eak

  12. #12

    Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)

    Sometimes they may be dead if you have AdN already in hand... even if you do, you still have other cards to win the game for you, and LED/IT is still a strong backup plan if it gets countered or after AdN resolves.
    Have you guys thought about Inferno Tutoring AdN before you play it? You do remember there's the first part to Inferno Tutor? :p
    Pulling out another AdN means 1 less chance to run into it. If you Inferno Tutor for a AdN you already have in hand turn 2, you will combo off much more safely turn 3.

    Also, if you have problem with drawing only 3 cards with AdN, maybe 1 angel's grace MD? It can cancel the effect for Pact of Negation too. lol. So guess it's like a poor-man's version of FoW.
    Thought it might be a "win more"


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    Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)

    I like the idea of starting the combo with Angel's Grace instead of Orim's Chant: draw your whole deck and win. It still requires the Duress, Chant or Pact, though, and Angel's Grace is somewhat useless before the combo. Hopefully.

  14. #14
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    Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)

    I can see a 1-of Angel's Grace be good at allowing the deck to go off with an EtW win that was protected via Pact of Negation. Not really sure it's worth splashing white for, though. I think Orim's Chant seems more relevant, since it has synergy with the IGG in the sideboard.

    Going 4 colors is pushing it, IMO. At that point, with only 14 lands, going Rainbow would be more stable... which in turn makes Brainstorm bad, which I don't think is worth it.

    The bigger question is: what is the best third color splash?

    ---

    For right now I'm starting my testing with red. I think EtW is extremely valuable to the deck. Going for the uncounterable win, especially when you can't reach a lethal storm count for Tendrils for whatever reason, can win games. Many decks in the format can't answer 10-12 1/1 tokens early in the game when they aren't prepared for it.

    I have not yet tried the Red Elemental Blasts out of the board yet to determine if they are worth going red for or not. My guess right now is yes, since they can replace Pact of Negation against Counterbalance decks... you will usually play a little slower in these matchups anyway and REB can counter Counterbalance. It's also just as good at resolving AdN as Pact of Negation is, although harder on the manabase.

    Shattering Spree is another good red card, useful against Dragon Stompy, Stax, etc. Chalice is the most problematic card for this deck when resolved on turn 1 for 0, and Spree answers multiple Chalices and Trinispheres, too. The lack of red mana production in the maindeck does worry me about the card though. 1 red mana source and 4 Lotus Petals does not seem like enough to support big Spree's... though adding some Rite of Flame's could easily fix that.

    Is Rite of Flame worth splashing, maybe as a 2/2 split with Cabal Ritual? I believe that needs to be determined with playtesting. The deck easily hits BB consistently right now and 2 Rites could easily make REB's and Spree's more playable.

    I'm going to try dropping 2 Cabal Rituals for 2 Rite of Flames and dropping 1 Chain of Vapor from the sideboard for 1 Shattering Spree and see if it still runs effectively (without using the sideboard).

  15. #15
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    Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)

    If you wanted to splash for a single fourth color, namely white, we might try this:

    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Bloodstained Mire
    2 Underground Sea
    1 Badlands
    1 Scrubland
    1 Swamp
    1 Island

    I'm not convinced that white really brings enough to the deck though.

    The bigger question is: what is the best third color splash?
    Red.



    peace,
    4eak

  16. #16

    Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)

    Pact of Negation isn't good, it's 5cc, it doesn't protect Infernal Tutor + Lion's Eye Diamond and it doesn't stop Counterbalance. You're better off running either 8 discard, 8 Abeyance/Orim's Chant or a mix.

    Red is the best splash, Empty the Warrens, Vexing Shusher and Red Elemental Blast are better than either Orim's Chant or Krosan Grip.

    Don't cut Cabal Ritual for Rite of Flame, especially for less than 4 Rite of Flame.

    Run 1 Empty the Warrens MD.
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    Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)

    Pact of Negation's mana cost and converted mana cost are both 0.
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  18. #18

    Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)

    The point of it is though, you can play pact OR LED+ Infernal.

    You cant play both in the same deck efficiently.

    I personaly perfer the pact/cullings version with no ITs you get to play 8 copys and have 8 disruption the rest is mana so you always get there when you draw it..

    LED is good, dont get me wrong, but you want to keep your CC down...
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  19. #19
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    Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)

    Pact of Negation isn't good, it's 5cc, it doesn't protect Infernal Tutor + Lion's Eye Diamond and it doesn't stop Counterbalance. You're better off running either 8 discard, 8 Abeyance/Orim's Chant or a mix.

    Red is the best splash, Empty the Warrens, Vexing Shusher and Red Elemental Blast are better than either Orim's Chant or Krosan Grip.

    Don't cut Cabal Ritual for Rite of Flame, especially for less than 4 Rite of Flame.

    Run 1 Empty the Warrens MD.
    Eh?

    Pact of Negation is 0cc.

    I'm not worried about Counterbalance maindeck. It's not dominant enough in the metagame and this deck can usually resolve Ad Nauseam through countermagic before CounterTop goes online. Chalice is more devastating IMO, and REB doesn't answer that. The fact that Pact of Negation costs 0 instead of R is very relevant, IMO.

    You'll also notice the REB's in the board.

    Vexing Shusher is not as good as Krosan Grip. It eats removal (yes, some decks leave in some removal), it's mana intensive, and it cannot be tutored by Mystical Tutor.

    I do run 1 EtW maindeck in the red splash, obviously.

    You are right about 2 Rite of Flames being moronic though, but I'm not really sure how to buff up the red mana sources to make REB's and Spree's better. I don't want to go with SSG's because being 3cc is not worth it.

    ---

    I'm going to try this and see how it works:

    // Lands
    4 [ON] Polluted Delta
    4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
    3 [A] Underground Sea
    2 [B] Badlands
    1 [ON] Swamp (4)

    // Spells
    4 [TE] Lotus Petal
    4 [MR] Chrome Mox
    4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 [R] Dark Ritual
    4 [CS] Rite of Flame
    4 [FNM] Brainstorm
    4 [6E] Mystical Tutor
    4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
    4 [4E] Ad Nauseam
    1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
    1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
    4 [7E] Duress
    4 [U] Red Elemental Blast

    // Sideboard
    SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
    SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
    SB: 1 [TSP] Wipe Away
    SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
    SB: 4 [FUT] Pact of Negation
    SB: 4 [TO] Cabal Ritual

    However, I'm pretty sure maindeck Cabal Ritual and Pact of Negation with IS the better maindeck configuration.

  20. #20
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    Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)

    Quote Originally Posted by BreathWeapon
    Pact of Negation isn't good, it's 5cc,
    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni
    If you have 5 mana after casting IT and popping LED, why wouldn't Pact of Negation protect it?

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    Check again.
    Team SPOD
    [23:08:50] <@Anusien> You want me to actually test?
    [23:09:02] <frogboy> I thought you already had
    Quote Originally Posted by herbig View Post
    Those better times were when you were ignorant of the state of things.

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