I actually dropped Delver entirely in favor of 3 Cliques. My current list at the moment:
1 Bayou
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vendilion Clique
3 Tombstalker
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Thoughtseize
3 Daze
1 Sylvan Library
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Snuff Out
4 Force of Will
The third Clique could and maybe should be the 4th Daze. But I like to always have a threat available, and Clique is so damn good right now with all the Stoneforge Mystics running around (the ideal play is to flash it in in response to their SFM activation, usually wasting them a turn). It's also often good as a way to kill Jace. In the Mental Misstep era, I think 4 Goyf/4 Stalker was the best configuration since you could more reliably protect your threats. Now I think you want Thoughtseize and Clique to clear the way for your beats. Hymn just doesn't seem to be pulling its weight as much these days, except against decks where TA is already favored.
Pulse in the main is great. You often aren't going to be casting removal until turn 3 anyways, and having an out to a resolved Batterskull, Jace, Elspeth, or random crap like Ensnaring Bridge is nice. Even against creature decks, the biggest threats are more often their artifacts/enchantments/planeswalkers instead of their creatures. I'd rather destroy the Sword of F&F than the Stoneforge Mystic that fetched it. If tribal aggro decks come back in vogue this might be too slow, but right now there is plenty to warrant Pulse's inclusion.
Snuff Out seems great right now because it doesn't tie up your mana at all. So you can still kill a t1 mother/lackey/hierarch/arbor and still have stifle up or cast a t1 ponder/thoughtseize. Might be worth it to fit even more back into the deck. I realize that the life loss from Dismember can be more easily mitigated. But being safe from Daze and safer from Spell Pierce vs. Delver decks and always being able to reliably kill Goyf/KotR/etc. outweighs the benefit of being able to kill Confidant and Tombstalker (which are not seeing much play these days). Also, tapping out to cast Go for the Throat/Smother/whatever on turn 2 is often a poor use of mana during the critical early turns, not to mention so many decks are playing Spell Snare/Daze these days.
*Depending on where the meta shifts, adding Engineered Explosives back in as a maindeck/SB removal option might be worth considering. It is slightly faster than Deed and can selectively not kill your own threats.
Last edited by wcm8; 02-21-2012 at 12:49 PM.
hey people
Here is my current build, it lost tempo but now is very tough mid range deck. I'm not often on this forum and it seems to me that all posted builds are close to TA tempo archetype, so I dont know if I should even post this build here. If not sry..
But please share your thoughts about this build...
Polluted Delta - 4
Misty Rainforest - 3
Verdant Catacombs - 2
Underground Sea - 4
Tropical Island - 3
Bayou - 1
Wasteland - 4
Creeping Tar Pit - 2
Snapcaster Mage - 4
Tarmogoyf - 4
Force of Will - 4
Brainstorm - 4
Spell Snare - 2
Spell Pierce - 2
Ponder - 1
Go for the Throat - 1
Dismember - 1
Ghastly Demise - 1
Smother - 1
Hymn to Tourach - 4
Inquisition of Kozilek - 2
Thoughtseize - 2
Life from the Loam - 1
Pernicius Deed - 1
Jace, the Mind Sculptor - 2
Liliana of the Veil - 1
ty
just realized that there is bug control thread, sry for spamming..Originally Posted by antesha
THE COMPLETE GUIDE TO THE TEAM AMERICA SIDEBOARD
I started listing out cards up for possible sideboard inclusion for my own benefit to prepare for GP Indianapolis, but then got carried away and figured I would describe their pros and cons as a reference for all players looking to pick up the deck.
The maindeck options for Team America are mostly solidified (for now, barring some amazing new printings), with some wiggle room in terms of card selection and number. What isn't really set in stone is the sideboard thanks to a constantly shifting metagame. Luckily, BUG offers perhaps the greatest variety of useful sideboard options, and most problematic matchups can be dealt with via something in these colors.
This guide goes over all the cards I considered as possible options for the BUG tempo deck we all know and love, and frames their usefulness in relation to the archetype. I obviously did not include anything that wouldn't make sense to play here, though I am sure I forgot some possible options -- please let me know and I can add them to the post.
I divided it up by sections of functionality. There are no hard fast rules about how to build the sideboard (e.g. 4 Anti-GY slots, 3 Sweepers, etc.), as it really just depends on what you are expecting to see and what maindeck decisions you made. However, just be sure you know what is going out for what is coming in. Also be aware that many of the cards in TA are better on the play versus the draw and vice versa (e.g. Daze), and the deck should be adjusted in sideboard games accordingly. For more information on this topic, refer to any of the numerous guides about general Sideboarding out there.
If people want, I could create a similar guide for maindeck choices, but I think this thread itself answers most of those questions. I *do* think the primer on the first page could use an update, since the days of casting Sinkhole are mostly over. But who knows, old tech has a habit of coming back in Legacy. (ed. note: Interestingly enough, Dan Signorigni's most recent top 8 Grand Prix list sported 4 of the classic land destruction spell in his sideboard. Further proof that unique cards don't really die in Legacy, they just sleep.)
Top Fifteen Sideboard Cards to Consider Playing Right Now (December 2013)
1. Golgari Charm
2. Disfigure
3. Grafdigger's Cage
4. Thoughtseize
5. Spell Pierce
6. Vendilion Clique
7. Creeping Tar Pit
8. Liliana of the Veil
9. Sylvan Library
10. Krosan Grip
11. Stifle
12. Maelstrom Pulse
13. Winter Orb
14. Null Rod
15. Envelop
Land Destruction
Sinkhole, Stifle -- Generally you would see these in the main deck, but a strong case can be made for playing them in the sideboard as a way to combat midrange goodstuff.decs that are trying to ramp into 3/4-mana spells. Dan Signorigni recently proved how powerful this approach is with his Top 8 Grand Prix Denver list that sported 4 Sinkhole in the sideboard. Stifle is particularly good since it does many other important things beyond just nuking fetchlands.
Winter Orb -- This card fulfills a similar function as Sinkhole, without needing to eat as many sideboard slots. 2-3 can really hinder control and midrange strategies, whereas Team America is barely affected thanks to Deathrite Shaman and Daze. Like Sinkhole, this card made its mainstream debut in Grand Prix Top 8, this time piloted by Hove Thießen at Grand Prix Strasbourg.
Counterspells:
Spell Pierce -- seems like the best middle-of-the-road option. It can become useless as the game goes on, but our deck is concerned with the early game. Good enough to be considered for the maindeck.
Dispel -- very nice to have against targeted removal or a lethal Price of Progress. Somewhat useful vs. combo decks. It is very useful against Control decks that will afford to pay for Spell Pierce later on.
Envelop -- answers Miracle's bombs like Terminus or Entreat the Angels, and also counters Show and Tell. Worth considering if these are present in your metagame.
Disrupt -- As good as drawing a card AND countering a spell is, this seems simply too narrow and ineffective. Outdated tech, but included for possible consideration in a warped metagame.
Flusterstorm -- we don't really have much of a problem with Storm decks, and thanks to black discard, forcing a threat through via a counterwar isn't really something this deck wants or needs to be doing. We also aren't going to be recurring it via Snapcaster. It seems better suited for Vintage or for blue Legacy decks that are extremely soft to Storm (ie. not us).
Mindbreak Trap -- see above.
Blue Elemental Blast/Hydroblast -- We are pretty good against Goblins as it is, and Burn can mostly be answered with Spell Pierce. However, U/R Delver is a very real deck, so these may still deserve serious consideration despite their narrow nature.
Divert/Misdirection -- Randomly awesome, but narrow. Not sure if they really deserve slots unless you have a lot of players casting Hymn to Tourach in your metagame. Again, winning counterwars can be side-stepped by simply using targeted discard.
Counterspell -- very basic, but gets the job done. Not bad in control matchups since they are mostly playing around your taxing counters and might not expect a hard counter aside from FoW. Mana Leak or Negate are also a possibilities, though to me seem weaker in the matchups where you'd want a 2cmc counter.
Countersquall -- a Negate that also exerts some pressure. Unlikely inclusion.
Swan Song -- the drawback is relevant for us, unfortunately. But it does hit a lot of the cards that give us problems. I think this is a card meant more for hard control and combo.
Supplemental Discard:
Hymn to Tourach/Thoughtseize/Inquisition of Kozilek -- You should be playing some number of these in the maindeck, but having additional discard in the sideboard is completely fine. Counterspells will probably be competing for the same slots, so running a mixture of the two in the SB is also a valid option. Duress is another option, and that fact that it can't be hit by Misdirection is relevant against some opponents. These are one of the main benefits of running black as your secondary control color, and help side-step getting into counterwars (a losing proposition for a deck without much source of real card advantage). If Mind Twist ever gets unbanned, this might be a good singleton to have.
Mind Control Effects:
Gilded Drake, Mind Harness, Threads of Disloyalty, Sower of Temptation, Control Magic -- None of these are particularly exciting when we have Black removal options, though they certainly swing the game around. These cards are more useful in UR/x decks that can't effectively answer big green creatures. Of these options, I think Sower deserves the most consideration even despite its fragility. Stealing an Emrakul is awesome. Gilded Drake can be useful against Show and Tell and Reanimator decks.
Anti-Artifact/Enchantment
Energy Flux -- Affinity gets owned just as badly by Pernicious Deed. MUD/Stax variants aren't really common. Worth considering in a heavily warped metagame.
Hurkyl's Recall/Rebuild -- we want to permantly answer artifacts, not just buy a turn. This isn't Vintage.
Null Rod -- not too bad against Affinity, some MUD decks, Thopters, Painter/Stone, Sensei's Divining Top, and marginally useful against equipment-based aggro decks. I would also bring it in against Storm combo, since it will shut off Lion's Eye Diamond and Lotus Petal.
Seal of Primordium/Krosan Grip -- Seal comes down a turn sooner, can pre-empt a Bloodmoon/Choke/Back to Basics, and has other subtle advantages over Grip such as growing Tarmogoyf. That said, if you are needing these more for control matchups, the near-uncounterability of Grip might be better. I did not seriously consider Nature's Claim because giving your opponent life is not something this deck generally wants to be doing.
Putrefy -- even with the instant speed factored in, I think Maelstrom Pulse is better if you are looking for a versatile removal option.
Trygon Predator -- reusable and doubles as a threat (and carries Jitte like a champ), but a) doesn't have an immediate effect, and b) is obviously susceptible to removal before he hits. However it can really steal the game in certain matchups. A worthy metagame consideration, now just might not be its time.
Back to Nature/Harmonic Convergence -- if you really feel like beating your local Enchantress player.
Sweepers:
Pernicious Deed -- Extremely powerful and versatile. Yes, it's slow. Despite that, it can lead to blow-outs or a reversal of a losing board state. Arguably the best black/green spell ever printed (not that the competition is that fierce) (edit: pretty sure Abrupt Decay and Deathrite Shaman now take that award), and perhaps the best sweeper card for that matter. So strong, in fact, that going completely towards the control side of the spectrum to abuse it is a valid strategy in certain metagames. Has utility against tons of random decks, and in some cases is the absolute best sideboard card against them. Doesn't kill our Tombstalkers. Unfortunately, this card is a bit too slow in a format as fast as modern-day Legacy.
Perish/Nature's Ruin/Virtue's Ruin -- Of the three, Perish seems the best because it kills Thrun, which is a problematic threat seeing play these days. I realize Virtue's Ruin still hits the majority of Maverick, but I tend to see more decks running Green threats than White threats these days... you also don't want to lose to Elves, do you? Also used to be a great answer against Progenitus decks, though those aren't seeing much play lately.
Massacre -- It clears out most of G/W Maverick (including the very annoying Mother of Runes), letting you pick off the stragglers with targeted removal, while also leaving your Tarmogoyfs unscathed. I often see Maverick/Bant/DnT players overextend with their little dudes only to get crushed by a timely Massacre. It's also decent against UW/x Blade, killing off most of their creatures (including the annoying and dangerous Geist of St. Traft) without being a target for Spell Snare. And obviously a bomb against Deadguy Ale/Death and Taxes or any other W/x weenie aggro variant.
Consuming Vapors -- not exactly a 'sweeper', but potentially 2-for-1s or at least stalls them for a turn on a now-empty board. I do like the card advantage and time that the life gain can buy you, but I dislike the 4cmc. If you really want to go out of your way to play the control role, this slot is okay and can be considered along with Sower of Temptation as high CMC bombs.
Damnation -- Eh... costing 4 makes it a hard sell for our deck. I would consider the more cost-efficient sweepers/Pernicious Deed over this one despite its non-conditional nature. Also, Massacre often accomplishes the same thing against many tribal aggro decks if you are forced to board in a 4cmc sweeper.
Engineered Explosives -- when the meta calls for it, this card is arguably better than Pernicious Deed thanks to its lower cost. However, it seems like most aggro decks have creatures all over the CMC spectrum, which generally makes it less of a blow-out. If Fast Zoo comes back in force or is heavily played in your meta, this should be your first sweeper for consideration since it can lead to an easy 3-for-1. It *might* be pretty good against U/Rx delver decks but I haven't really tested it in this matchup.
Llawan, Cephalid Empress -- Is Merfolk even a deck anymore? Even when it was, we had better options than this clunky 4-drop. It *does* answer Progenitus and some reanimation targets, but that hardly makes it seem worth it.
Hibernation -- For the most part, Perish is better as an answer to Green/Progenitus, but Hibernation is also an answer to Enchantress (although Deed is better here unless they have Karmic Justice). The instant speed nature can sometimes be relevant. Too narrow by my estimation.
Golgari Charm -- A versatile card that will mostly be used for it's mode of killing an army of X/1s. Mega-useful against Elves, Goblins, Maverick, and Lingering Souls. All 3 modes are incredibly useful in a variety of matchups. Modern TA decks should be running 2-3 of these.
Marsh Casualties -- a one-sided Nausea effect that can occasionally be kicked to kill off bigger creatures. Unfortunately, it being Sorcery speed reduces its power. Golgari Charm is generally better for its added utility.
Toxic Deluge -- the life cost is relevant (often, won't Infest do the same thing?), but the advantage here is that it hits EVERY color of creature. So you can bring it in against Merfolk and Goblins. It could even conceivably kill an Emrakul. This is a card you could arguably run in the maindeck due to the potential for a blow-out.
Targeted Removal/Bounce:
Abrupt Decay -- There's four in the maindeck, right? Answers the majority of Legacy's threats, not just creatures. Uncounterable is icing on the cake.
Disfigure -- an elegant solution to opposing Deathrite Shamans, and still kills plenty of other threats such as Goblin Lackey, Goblin Guide, flipped Delver of Secrets, Stoneforge Mystic, etc.
Dismember -- a Snuff Out that costs 1, but at least it hits Black creatures.
Maelstrom Pulse -- Powerful and versatile, especially when it comes to killing off planeswalkers or token swarms. Worth considering for maindeck inclusion despite its high cmc. Has functional overlap with various slots (eg. Krosan Grip), so it might save you some room to fit in more specific hate while still answering common problems. I would've prefered a functional reprint of Vindicate (which would make this an auto 3-4 in the maindeck), but the occasional 2-for-1 does happen with this card.
Echoing Truth -- I like this card as a possible 1-of. Extremely versatile if only for a turn. Worth considering since it has utility in the Reanimator (Iona on black or whatever) /Dredge (kills tokens without triggering additional BfB zombies) Storm/Belcher (if you think they're going the Empty the Warren's route and don't have a Stifle handy) and other random matchups.
Rushing River/Wipe Away -- First of all, I think Echoing Truth is better as a form of non-conditional bounce, and secondly I think Maelstrom Pulse is better as a form of versatile removal. Just adding these here to be complete. Old tempo builds used to run a single Rushing River as a way to punch through for the last points of damage, but I think this tech is outdated.
Submerge -- Yes, we have black removal, but this card can still be really incredible. We don't need to lean on it as hard as RUG does, but its powerful tempo effect when played at the right time (essentially a free Time Walk, or 'hard' removal when played in response to a shuffle effect) can make it back-breaking. Worth considering despite its narrow clause.
Darkblast -- very very useful if you get it early enough for it to matter. Kills all the annoying X/1 creatures that can be problematic for TA, and can also kill X/2 creatures if wasting a drawstep is worth it. Can kill unflipped Delvers and win Goyf wars, making it not too shabby in the tempo mirror. The main feature of course is its recursion, which has the added benefit of feeding Goyf/Tombstalker. I think its worth it to play 1 or 2 right now, and possibly even shove one into the maindeck.
Diabolic Edict/Doom Blade/Go for the Throat/Smother/Ghastly Demise/Snuff Out - solid options to supplement your removal suite in the aggro matchups. Which is best is mostly metagame dependent. I'm sure at some point a better black removal spell will get printed, but for now these are what we have to work with.
Shriekmaw -- I really want this guy to work, but honestly it's probably more cute than good. It's doubtful that in matchups where we need tons of removal we'll ever ramp up to the point of casting it as an additional threat. However, a few points in his favor: he's an answer to a Shown Emrakul; he doesn't get hit by Inquisition of Kozilek, Spell Pierce, Spell Snare, or (generally) Counterbalance; he functions as an additional (evasive) threat in the long game.
Dystopia -- this is better in a deck that can power it out early via Dark Ritual. For TA, cards like Perish or Massacre have a more immediate and powerful effect.
Deathmark/Funeral Charm/Tragic Slip/Other black removal -- I don't think any of these really compare to the above options, just adding them for completion's sake.
Graveyard Hate:
Tormod's Crypt/Nihil Spellbomb -- great for beating dredge, okay against reanimator, somewhat mediocre in comparison to other options against other GY strategies. Your typical go-to for these sorts of matchups. Nihil is 'better' in a vacuum, but the thing to note here is that often you may be tapping out for Ponder/Brainstorm to find one of these, so the free cost of Crypt can be relevant. Additionally, you may want to hold up mana for counterspells in the early turns (Not just stuff like Spell Pierce -- remember to Stifle Narcomeoba triggers, and Stifle can also stop Animate Dead). If you want 4 of these, running a 2/2 or 3/1 split may be a good idea to help avoid running into problems with Cabal Therapy/Pithing Needle/Echoing Truth.
Deathrite Shaman -- You're playing him in the main, right? Supplement his versatility with other more focused graveyard removal and these sort of decks shouldn't be too much of a problem. This guy also becomes a legitimate threat in the late game thanks to his Grim Lavamancer-esque ability. The life-gain also helps make aggro decks more manageable. He can also help you play bigger CMC cards out of the board or in the main.
Scavenging Ooze -- doubles up as a threat and source of repeatable grave removal. A very powerful card against RUG since it will shrink Mongeese and often outsize Tarmogoyf. The lifegain can also be relevant against aggressive decks. Mana is often tight for this deck and we don't play GSZ, so I wouldn't really want this as our only form of GY hate. It's also usually too slow against Dredge or Reanimator.
Relic of Progenitus -- if the exile&draw trigger were one sided, this would be great. Better than Spellbomb, in fact. However, we need our own GY for Tombstalker and keeping Tarmogoyf at a reasonable size. Not sure if its worth the risk despite how great it can be landed on turn 1.
Extirpate/Surgical Extraction -- Okay, it's true that we aren't abusing Snapcaster, but these are still worth considering since there are plenty of decks right now that lean heavily on one specific interaction. Thopters, High Tide, various combo decks (eg. Painter Stone), Life from the Loam, Wasteland/other annoying land recursion via Crucible of Worlds, Punishing Fire, etc.. Discarding or countering a key spell and then following up with one of these can flip the game in your favor. I think the edge goes ever so slightly to Extirpate for its split second. One thing to note: I really do not think these are worth bringing in against tempo decks, as tempting as hitting a dual land/threat may seem.
Faerie Macabre -- Perhaps the best card against Reanimator, and not entirely useless in other graveyard matchups. Can [rarely] double up as threat (thanks for the Exhume!). Free and virtually uncounterable.
Leyline of the Void -- this isn't Vintage; we generally have several turns to find more reliable hate. You aren't going to be hardcasting this very often/ever, and if you do, it won't be soon enough to matter. I don't think it's worth it.
Yixlid Jailer -- if this actually did something against Reanimator it'd be a great card to consider, but as it is there are more versatile options.
Coffin Purge -- I still think McFae is better against Reanimator due to the uncounterability, and as far as 1cmc targeted grave removal goes Extirpate/Extraction seem better. I'd actually consider Misinformation as a potential way to screw up Reanimator before I'd consider Coffin Purge. Mana is at a premium in TA.
Ravenous Trap -- Fits a role similar to Faerie Macabre while being better against Dredge, however its vulnerability to counterspells/Duress makes it worse against Reanimator (not to mention you aren't always guaranteed to get the free alternate cost in that matchup). Not worth it.
Planar Void - No. We need our own graveyard, and it doesn't remove stuff already there.
Wheel of Sun and Moon/Ground Seal -- we are playing black, so we have better options as far as grave hate goes. Wheel also has an awkward color requirement for our deck. If getting decked by Grindstone or whatever ever becomes a serious concern, running a single Emrakul in the sideboard is a much safer bet.
Loaming Shaman -- Doubles as both a threat and a Crypt, but costing 3 is a bit too slow to consider for GY matchups. If he were a 2/1 that cost 1G, I'd reconsider.
Grafdigger's Cage -- this has the benefit of being splash hate for Snapcaster.dec and GSZ.dec (and Natural Order), but it doesn't seem as effective at actually dealing with Dredge/Reanimator. A possible 1-of, but I'm not that enthusiastic about it especially since we have no way to tutor for it and it's comparitively weaker than other options. A much better card in Vintage.
Bojuka Bog -- on-color, but we aren't running KotR or Crop Rotation. Not much control over when to use it either. Not under real consideration. Would be a true contender if it were a non-basic Swamp for fetching purposes.
Utility, Fringe, Miscellaneous and/or Narrow:
Deathrite Shaman -- listed in the gy hate section, but also has a lot of utility. Listing him here for completion's sake. Play 4 in the maindeck.
True-Name Nemesis -- our own Nimble Mongoose that could be a nice beater to have against decks that run targeted removal and/or Rest in Peace.
Creeping Tar Pit -- more lands against Wastelands is always nice, and it doubles up as an uncounterable threat that can dodge stuff like Supreme Verdict against your control opponents.
Green Sun's Zenith -- this card could be realistically played in the maindeck (1 or 2 copies). We have plenty of great targets: Shaman, Goyf, Ooze, perhaps a miser's Nimble Mongoose, Dryad Arbor (as the 20th/21st land?). It could also increase your sideboard threat density while also finding some juicy targets like the aforementioned Scavenging Ooze or Trygon Predator. Playing this card will shift your deck more towards a midrange strategy, but it's a completely valid consideration.
Phyrexian Metamorph/Phantasmal Image -- these can function as removal for legendary creatures or just become additional beaters. I've considered putting a singleton Image in my maindeck before, but this runs into the 'danger of cool things'. (now with the change to the Legend rule, these cards aren't really useful anymore. You're better off running Karakas if you need a method of dealing with them.)
Reanimate/Unearth -- seems nice in a Snapcaster build, but really is more cute than good. Reanimate can also function as pseudo-graveyard hate.
Chill -- good if you think you're going to run into Burn multiple times, but the versatility of BEB/Hydroblast seem to outweigh the usefulness of Chill. Douse is another Red hoser, but we can't really afford the payment and they are probably bringing REBs in anyways.
Skylasher -- good against Delver mirrors, and has utility against Merfolk and Blue control decks (Clique, Geist, Snapcaster, etc.)
Notion Thief -- this can be a huge bomb against any deck that runs Brainstorm, Jace, or certain types of combo decks that use a draw engine or lots of cantrips (just don't get yourself decked!). If you can resolve this against your opponent's Brainstorm or Jace activation, you pretty much win the game. Could be fun to have as a sneaky singleton. Surprisingly powerful against BUG control decks since he dodges Abrupt Decay and shuts off most of their card advantage.
Compost -- seems abstractly good vs. Dredge, or just as a way to hose your local mono-black player.
Kira, Great Glass Spinner -- a nice card to have against targeted removal, but really needs to show up early to be effective. Not really strong enough for its CMC for our purposes. I've seen builds experiment with having it in the maindeck, which could be okay.
Propaganda -- too slow for our deck, and we run black so we have more effective ways of dealing with aggro decks.
Bitterblossom -- great against certain control decks that rely on targeted removal. Jitte would probably need to be considered to mitigate the life loss and take full advantage of this card.
Dark Confidant -- I don't like this guy much in the maindeck, but as a sideboard creature in non-aggro matchups he could be a huge bomb. The problem is that most control decks are going to overload on targeted removal in sideboard games, so he may not survive long enough to provide a real advantage. Phyrexian Arena, despite costing one more, might be a safer form of card advantage if you feel this effect is necessary.
Sylvan Library -- I run one in the main, but it could also be considered a sideboard card. Just a great card in general. I've tested Mirri's Guile, but that card really just doesn't compare. Simply amazing to have in play, it really lopsides the game in your favor.
Engineered Plague -- a powerful tool to deal with Elves, Goblins, Soul tokens, and other decks that run a bunch of X/1 weenies.
Dread of Night -- If mono-white weenies ever becomes a legitimate concern, here's the answer.
Illness in the Ranks -- a way to deal with various creature tokens.
Jace, the Mind Sculptor -- yes, he is amazing. But getting to four mana and the late game is not usually where this deck wants to be going. He can be part of a transformative sideboard that drops the tempo angle for a more controlling build, or simply be a bomb to help win attrition games (e.g. Maverick). However, most decks are equipped to deal with him and might even think you are playing him in the main already and sideboard accordingly (and perhaps your TA build does in fact have 1 or 2 in the main). He also provides an out against decks that can't be easily defeated with the attack phase (e.g. 43 Lands). HOWEVER, with Deathrite Shaman now in the mix, 2 or 3 Jace in the SB are a completely reasonable option.
Liliana of the Veil -- The +1 and -2 abilities are relevant in so many matchups, and if you can ramp into her ultimate you're most likely winning the game. A fantastic planeswalker for the deck. Worthwhile to play in the maindeck.
Life from the Loam -- Generally better than Crucible of Worlds in any deck running green. This can be a nice way of ramping into higher cmc spells from your SB or establishing Waste-lock, or also battling against Pox decks. It's also great with Liliana as a way to make her +1 ability one-sided. It could be okay as a maindeck singleton or as part of a transformative sideboard strategy, but in a TA build intent on sticking with the tempo plan it's just too slow.
Carpet of Flowers -- this will help you win Tempo mirrors, since Daze, Spell Pierce, and Wasteland become non-issues once this card has landed. I see this more frequently in BUG Cascade lists, but it's something to consider if RUG and whatnot are frequent contenders.
Basic Lands -- Another possibility for a transformative sideboard is to run a couple of basic lands instead of Loam to be more effictive at casting high CMC bombs and help avoid opposing Waste-lock. However, non-basic hate is still going to hurt regardless and these may just be wasted slots. More of a Vintage strategy.
Sensei's Divining Top/Counterbalance -- if RUG can do it, so can we. The question is if this is really even worth eating up a bunch of your sideboard slots. Right now my assumption is no, but it could merit some testing. However, with Abrupt Decay making waves in the metagame, eating up a huge portion of the sideboard for this effect is probably not worth it.
Thrun, the Last Troll -- Thrun can be a nice trump card to top-deck if the game starts going long. He's a really good card, and I've tested sideboards before than run him. 1 or 2 copies are definitely a possibility in a heavy control metagame. Unfortunately, plenty of control decks now run Terminus or Supreme Verdict, making his viability more questionable than it used to be.
Cursed Scroll -- This may seem crazy, but very few decks will likely see this coming. TA gets into top-deck mode quickly, making its activation reliable. It can kill most utility creatures or provide a slow way of chipping away the last few points of life. It can also stop a Planeswalker from setting off their ultimate. The main strike against it is how mana-intensive it is, but this will likely be more of a late-game card anyways. Might be more cute than good, and has tension with Pernicious Deed. I have not personally tested it.
Umezawa's Jitte (and possibly other aggressive equipment) -- I would only run this if your build is running at least 9 creatures. If you get it online it is much stronger than Darkblast and can just annhilate some decks. Could be helpful against burn if your Goyf can make it into the red zone. A good singleton in the right build.
Tsabo's Web -- This is the only card that I know of that we can really use as a form of general non-basic hate (everything else hurts us just as bad/worse). Seems like it'd be ok if there's some guy in your local metagame that plays Lands, otherwise it's far too narrow to seriously consider bringing to a big tournament.
Torpor Orb/Cursed Totem -- these deal with utility creatures, but we're probably just better off killing them with our black removal than wasting slots on something this narrow.
Vendilion Clique -- Great creature to have against your combo and control opponents. Doubles as an evasive threat and disruption. Flash means you don't need to tap out against a combo opponent if you're holding Spell Pierce mana up. One of TA's best options for combating Jace.
Pithing Needle/Phyrexian Revoker -- Could be okay ways of dealing with problematic cards like Planeswalkers, Maze of Ith, or combo pieces, but both have tension with running Pernicious Deed and Revoker is vulnerable to removal. I think the conclusion reached with these sort of effects was that they simply don't do enough in the matchups where you'd be bringing them in.
Additional Beaters -- this would include stuff like Terravore, Kitchen Finks, Obstinate Baaloth, Scavenging Ooze, Glissa the Traitor, etc. None of these creatures are as efficient as our main considerations (Goyf, Stalker, Mongoose, Confidant, Deathrite Shaman, Clique, Snapcaster, Delver, True-Name Nemesis), and additional beats don't really add much to the sideboard or make any matchups extremely better.
Phyrexian Dreadnought -- I have seen black thresh lists run a few of these as a surprise tactic against aggro decks that have few ways to answer a turn 2 12/12 trampler. Not sure it's worth the risk, but it's a consideration for builds running Stifle.
Maze of Ith/Karakas/Volrath's Stronghold/other utility lands -- See the comments on Bojuka Bog. We have no way to tutor for them (outside of something like Intuition, but then we're getting out of TA and into BUG-control territory) and don't really enhance our strategy besides. However, Karakas is great against Show and Tell/Reanimator strategies and has a useful interaction with Vendilion Clique. It could be decent as a one-of along with Clique for those long, grindy control matchups.
Conclusion and Updates
I will add to this list if anything I missed gets pointed out, and also as new effective cards get printed.
01/07/2012: added a Land Destruction section. Also added Disfigure as a legitimate targeted removal option.
12/04/2012: Added new options from RTR. The deck is also back to being a DTB, thanks to the power of Abrupt Decay and Deathrite Shaman.
04/16/2013: Added Winter Orb to the land destruction section.
04/22/2013: Added Skylasher. Changed the formatting.
05/28/2013: Added Notion Thief and Green Sun's Zenith.
12/28/2013: Added several new cards and made some tweaks to the comments. Also added a new "top 15" section for quick reference which will get updated every so often to reflect changes in the global metagame.
Last edited by wcm8; 12-29-2013 at 12:51 AM.
Wow! A very thorough list of the SB options. For the most part I agree with your assessments. One card to list specifically might be tragic slip. I haven't tested it, and it is competing with darkblast, but the ability to kill a tarmogoyf or a bob could be nice, though getting it morbided is harder in legacy I think since the decks you'd bring it in against have fewer creatures. I think it's worth a mention though, it's a pretty powerful card.
Nice work wcm8.
Currently playing: Elves
Wow! Very awesome job wcm8! I would bring up a few points though:
1) Deed is way better than Flux vs Affinity. Affinity packs artifact/enchant removal in the sb and can and will kill your Flux. Deed is only stoppable by Pithing Needle, but many lists choose Revoker over Needle with Team can easily deal with. Energy Flux is only a real choice for Merfolk or other decks without acess to R/G.
2) I've tried Misdirection and besides two epic plays, targeting a Hymn and a lethal Blue Sun's Zenith, it's never been worthwhile.
3) I think Duress could be a decent choice (especially if you run both Thoughtseize and IoK), coming in for Thoughtseize vs Storm and Burn and IoK vs RUG Delver and the mirror (vs Delver it's usually better to take a Force than a goyf, though that's close and could depend on your list).
4) As much as I love Trygon, I feel it's biggest limitation is that we don't play GSZ.
5) I agree with Extirpate over SE, but wouldn't immediately discount it vs tempo. I always love having this card in the sb whenever possible, due to it's huge versatility. I feel that Extirpate, SE, and Macabre are miles ahead of the other options.
6) I think Arena is superior to Bob here, both for the reason you stated, plus the fact we generally run at least 6 CMC 5+ cards and little to no SDT effects.
To address a couple points:
Tragic Slip just sucks (in Legacy, at least). I would file this with the other lower tier removal options. Killing X/1 guys is much better accomplished by Darkblast, or even Funeral Charm since it can double as an instant-speed discard. We want our removal to be as reliable as possible if we're going to spend a slot on it.
Energy Flux utterly stomps on Affinity -- remember that their Lands also get the upkeep cost, meaning that at most they might be able to salvage two things which will most likely suck (even Cranial Plating, Master of Etherium, and Etched Champion are not worrisome by themselves). And as you pointed out, they may be bringing in Revokers/Needles to pre-empt your Deed. This is all a moot point though, because Affinity is generally an easy matchup for us. Our tarmogoyfs will frequently be 5/6 or bigger. Energy Flux is more for consideration as a way to deal with dismal Stax matchup. I'm certainly not in love with the card, but it's just an option for a warped metagame.
Regarding Duress, I think it's really become the 4th best option as far as discard spells go in Legacy (5th if its a deck that can run Cabal Therapy). IoK/Thoughtseize accomplish the targeted role, and Hymn is great for the card advantage and just randomly winning games. Hymn is also much better against Burn and Storm/combo than Duress. If I needed that much discard, I would play 12 of these before considering Duress.
Thanks for the replies.
I'm very busy with work so won't have time to write out everything I want to until next week; however I wanted to say that Team America is still a very real deck despite not top-8ing GP Indy.
I plan on writing some in-depth reports, but a few quick summaries:
-I myself went 3-3 drop in the main event. I lost to Maverick (expected), Nic Fit (expected), and Affinity (possibly a g3 misplay on my part, but really more due to luck because I got mana flooded for 4 turns whereas he top-decked threats).
-I got first place in a 50~ man side event Friday night (Legacy Bronze thing).
-I got third place in a 50~ man side event on Sunday (Gen Con qualifiers). (and I probably could have gotten first or second, but decided to scoop to the eventual winner since I wanted to go out and get food/drinks with my crew and was tired at this point).
Remember when I mentioned that Dread of Night might be worth considering if white creatures ever become a problem?... More to come later.
The deck is still decent but jesus is it a pain to play against all these decks with swords to plowshares. I manged to T64 the GP, with all of my losses coming against decks with STP (2 to maverick, 1 Esper stoneblade, 1 punishing zoo). Managed to beat the other 4 swords decks I played and the combo decks. Stifle was very unimpressive, it sucks that people have finally learned not to get their fetches stifled, as those easy wins were really nice. The combo of tombstalker + deed + jace is awesome though. Maybe the deck should shift more in that direction somehow (basically just BUG control but with tombstalkers).
PS: Ran the massacres in the board and they were awesome, thanks for the tip on that one wcm8.
Yes, this. I ran two versions of the deck over the weekend, and in the more controlling version of the deck this is basically what I ended up boarding into in games 2 and 3 (helped me crush Bant, UW Blade and Mono-black Pox). Especially if Stifle's utility goes down, running a hybrid BUG list may be the best deck going forward as the format begins to adapt to RUG Delver.
My biggest issue with this deck has always been the removal package. It seems you can either kill pretty much anything (ie Maelstrom Pulse and Snuff Out), but suffer from a loss of speed or life, or put design restrictions on yourself to kill Delvers more effectively but be weaker to knights (Ghastly Demise).
Finding a sweet spot with removal is where this deck needs to go moving forward. Pernicious Deed seems abysmally slow against a deck like RUG, but decent against U/w and a blowout against maverick. Perhaps a mix of Demises and Deeds would be good, not sure.
Anyway, my GP ended after round 3, and I went 1-2 drop as I didn't have byes and didn't feel like clawing towards day 2 after that start. Lost to Dredge (games 2 and 3 didn't see any hate and I couldn't capitalize on his misplays), won against reanimator, and lost to Sneak and Show (he drew a busted couple of hands and rolled me, even though I stopped him 4 times in game 1). Didn't really feel like I actually played magic.
Not really sure what to think of the deck. I have switched over to an esper blade list I've been working on with Tombstalkers, because he beats RUG on the spot if they can't submerge him, and it's been nuts, but perhaps there is a BUG build that I am missing here. If someone can figure out the removal and how to beat RUG consistently I wouldn't mind tuning a list. I thought stifle would go a long way in the RUG matchup but it usually ends up being terrible. I prefer versions of Team America that just tap out on your turn and then use Daze and Force of Will to interact on your opponents turn. I think with that kind of deck you really want Delvers as well as Tombstalkers as the extra pressure makes Daze miles better.
they haunt minds...
nitewolf9- Ive been working on a list to beat RUG, mostly because im not satisfied with RUG either (goyfs feeling their age). Heres a brew that puts the hurt on RUG with many of the original/traditional elements intact, id be really interested to hear your thoughts:
Black TA
Creatures 10
4 delver of secrets
4 tombstalker
2 death's shadow
Permission 16
4 force of will
4 daze
4 stifle
2 spell snare
2 spell pierce
Discard 4
4 inquisition of kozilek
Cantrips 8
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
Removal 4
4 snuff out
Lands 18
4 misty rainforest
4 polluted delta
4 underground sea
4 wasteland
1 swamp
1 island
Side Board 15
3 massacre
2 perish
2 animate dead
2 spell pierce
2 submerge
2 surgical extraction
2 grafdiggers cage
So there it is. Ive been beating RUG pretty handily with this, especially postboard.
The green splash is outdated sadly and with all the aggro and spell snares running around goyf just isnt good enough.
Similarly hymn is only situationally good. Sometimes it hits business and sometimes it may as well be in the opponents hand and read "rather than pay hymns cost you may choose and discard 2 cards, your opponent chooses and discards a card." From that perspective hymn is simply a timewalk on yourself that costs your opponent 1 extra card. Anyway none of this is news im sure, just the reasons behind some changes. Also IoK could be thoughtseize but I think IoK is actually better here due to the fast aggressive nature of the deck. Snares could also become more pierce to protect the threats better and improve combo matchups.
What I feel is absolutely necessary to compete is to lower the curve down below canadian thresh, since in these types of 'pseudo mirror matches' playing a spell that costs 2 mana is actually a tempo loss when it gets caught by a spell (snare/pierce) that costs 1.
The most common CT lists all sport 3-4 spell snares which this deck auto-blanks barring its own set of daze. Conversely CT runs 8-10 cmc 2 spells on average, including daze (4 daze, 4 goyf, 0-2 fire//ice etc). Meanwhile this decks removal is all free so the curve is actually lower than CT and allows us to wrench back the initiative against opposing opening delvers OTD due to snuff out + daze, something no other deck can hope to do. The other benefit over traditional TA is less land count for added threat density and a more stable manabase as this deck can end games on just the 2 basic lands.
Delvers and Tombstalkers are the way forward, im convinced of that. Stalker beats opposing delvers/goyfs/geese, races KotR, dodges all burn and aggro creatures, dodges snares plus countertop which is not irrelevant and without the green splash he becomes immune to submerge which is amazing!
My new 'secret tech' though is deaths shadow. Dont skoff yet. TA has always had a very low creature count and cards lik clique are just to mana intensive or too clunky in such an aggressive shell. Then I found deaths shadow. This guy is like a black mongoose. Not sure on the exact count yet but as a 2-of hes been excellent, coming down as a 3/3 or greater for B and stalling creatures like goyf and even knights. Its also worth noting that shadow has great synergy with snuff out acting as a free permanent giant growth effect and is a trump card in any game where you race to the finish since anything but lethal damage means he will likely grow large enough to end the game in 1 hit.
Post board the deck can go into hyper aggressive mode with up to +3 massacre, +2 submerge, for a potential 17 free spells (with fow/daze/snuff out), more if you roll surgical extraction. I cant think of anything that can out tempo that.
Anyway give it a try i think you'll be impressed and please dont take offense at my ramblings, its just that you are one of the GODS of my alltime favorite deck :)
I like your approach and most of your thought process except for death's shadoe. The biggest upside of nimble mongoose is that it has shroud. How do you want to beat a deck that is playing:
- a lot of removal
- a lot of lands
- and has better late game spells
Please don't say "by racing them out". Sure it can happen, but not as a rule. also you are missing red for doming the extra points of damage if you want to go for that approach.
Currently playing: Elves
@Tombstalker I think I agree with Catmint about your approach. I've tried similar lists and it just isn't worth not having the 3rd color. I think Grixis might be an option though.
You get burn and you also get Pyroblast out of the board, which is pretty awesome. If I were to run that color combo I'd probably try a 4 Bolt/2 "hard removal" (snuff out, ghastly demise, dismember) package and run Snapcaster Mage over the death's shadow.
Snapcaster Mage seems like he would be a very aggressive threat in a deck where he would be either flashing back stifle, 1 mana discard, Spell Pierce on a planeswalker or burn to go to the face. Anyway, it's an idea and would still mean stalker is submerge proof vs rug. The tug of war with Tombstalker and Snapcaster Mage really isn't an issue as long as you pay attention when you delve.
they haunt minds...
I've actually been testing the red splash fir exactly those reasons. The mana base is less stable which can matter but bolt is nice. I've been testing 2-3 snuff out and 4 bolts.
Regarding shadow, maybe goose was a bad comparison since its not a primary threat like delver/stalker/goyf. Shadow gets shuffled away early game But it almost always comes down bigger than goyf and usually stalls ground pressure till I can find a flyer or removal to use it to end the game. He's also big enough to ignore a good deal of the formats spot removal and burn, so maybe a dark goyf for B is a better comparison. I really suggest trying it before passing judgment, I was skeptical when I put it in the main for testing but its been really good. I've had it come down with counter protection as a 9/9 and just take the game against RUG, something I couldn't have done with anything else except a tombstalker. Against aggro shadow is just a speedbump but so are most other choices we have available except they cost 3, plus that's what the board is for.
If shadow doesn't pan out scm could be an alternative to snap back bolt/stifle/counters but cc 2 and the 2/1 body deterred me from testing them since I figured clique us probably better and I really didn't like clique in TA either. When I get home ill sleeve up some scm too, although I don't have a gauntlet to run the through, only CT, maverick, zoo, stoneblade and dredge so my testing is limited.
Let me direct everyone's attention to my topic for the red splash here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...xis-(UBr-tempo)
I still think Tarmogoyf and the other green cards are great, but I might be putting them aside for awhile and work on tweaking my Grixis list.
Ive been testing various changes to the list I posted all morning..
IoK became thoughtseize (again) which then just got dropped for more burn. Ive been feeling discard just isnt that good anymore, especially when you can just run more countermagic/burn instead. The deck is very strong, probably the strongest incarnation of TA ive ever played. Burn speeds up TAs already fast clock and feeds stalkers just as well/better than sorcery speed hand disruption. Spell snares became more spell pierce. The reason is im finding I just dont care that much about 2 drops as much with a whole suite of flyers while pierce stops answers to my threats and has broader applications.
Deaths shadow is the biggest issue right now and I think this 3rd creature spot is what is really holding TA back from being THE tempo DTB.
I went back and swapped shadow out for snapcaster mage, then vendilion clique, and even animate dead in the main! I cant really find anything worthwhile to fill these last 2-3 creature slots im looking for.
Vendilion is always clunky or uncastable against RUG tempo, SCM is the same while animate dead would actually be decent at times if it didnt give -1/0.
Deaths shadow is fairly often great against RUG, due mostly to the limited creature count and all the small ground pounders, but its not always good and never early which sucks. Against aggro decks it can sometimes stall temporarily but it wont ever reverse a losing board position or race without evasion or trample. Any ideas for a replacement? Im actually thinking of just upping the burn to 8 bolts? idk.
something like this
Creatures 10
4 delver of secrets
4 tombstalker
Permission 16
4 force of will
4 daze
4 stifle
4 spell pierce
Cantrips 8
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
Removal/Burn 10
4 lightning bolt
4 chain lightning
2 snuff out
Lands 18
4 misty rainforest
4 polluted delta
3 underground sea
1 badlands
2 volcanic island
4 wasteland
If you don't find Thoughtseize to be useful (which is entirely possible in certain metagames), why not just play straight U/R Delver? Tombstalker alone doesnt seem to justify the splash when you could just be running a more stable manabase and have access to Price of Progress and Back to Basics (or perhaps even Blood Moon...)
Thoughtseize is great against every non-aggro deck by ensuring your threats resolve/survive and also by disrupting their lines of play. Against aggro it *is* pretty weak since most of those decks are playing redundant threats.
And of course, black gives you access to some of the best sideboard cards ever printed. In the SB games against Maverick, the combination of Perish and Dread of Night (and/or Massacre) makes these games pretty easy just as long as you can counter Choke.
Tombstalker and snuff out plus SB options are the main reasons for black, and ya I play against a lot of aggro in mav, bant, zoo, even gobbos...I guess the web would call this an undefined meta? IDK. We mostly play casually with netdecks but plenty of jank innovations too and some reanimator, hivemind, combo elves.
I had someone suggest reanimate as creatures 9-10. This seems like it has merit. Its a MB answer to reanimator and can take KotR, delvers etc weve countered/discarded/killed. Also that 8 bolt idea from above sucked.
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