Page 1 of 195 123451151101 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 3881

Thread: [DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)

  1. #1
    His name is not unknown in these woods.
    nitewolf9's Avatar
    Join Date

    Aug 2006
    Location

    Area 88
    Posts

    1,522

    [DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)

    After its debut top 4 performance at the Source Anniversary tournament I present to you Team America:

    4 Tombstalker
    4 Tarmogoyf

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Stifle
    4 Force of Will
    4 Daze
    4 Thoughtseize
    4 Snuff Out
    4 Sinkhole

    4 Wasteland
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Flooded Strand
    1 Bloodstained Mire
    4 Underground Sea
    2 Tropical Island
    1 Bayou

    Sideboard:
    4 Tormod's Crypt
    4 Blue Elemental Blast
    4 Krosan Grip
    3 Diabolic Edict

    The history behind the creation of this deck is quite interesting, as it sort of started out as a joke deck of Dave Gearhart's, referred to as "Europe". It was blue and black only, played confidants and stalkers as the only creatures, combined with the same LD package as Team America. Also, it played 4 maindeck extirpates and no removal. To say the least it was pretty bad (although pretty fun to play). The name was a reference to the vast differences between European and American legacy meta games, and was a homage to alot of cards that rarely see play in America.

    As time went on, Dave and I started changing the deck around, at one point playing dreadnoughts in the main and also adding snuff outs. Eventually tarmogoyfs were added and the deck started looking strong. So, we started testing it and preparing the sideboard and maindeck for the Source tournament. Dave of course was locked in to playing It's The Fear, but me and Eric G. (Bourgeoise) decided to give Team America a shot. Eric had some rotten luck in the swiss (pun intended), but I went X - 0 and wound up finishing in the top 4.

    The idea behind Team America was essentially to merge the successful elements of tempo based threshold and suicide black. A proactive disruption suite, and a total of 12 "free" spells (force of will, daze, snuff out), allows this deck to be a tempo-generating machine. The 8 threats it plays must all be answered quickly, as they end the game in short order, and the cantrip base of 4 ponder/4 brainstorm smooth out the deck's consistency; something where traditional suicide strategies tend to fall short.

    While Team America does not run as many threats as a deck like Eva Green, and lacks the explosiveness of dark ritual, it gains powerful cards like force of will and daze, along with a cantrip engine. It is not quite as consistent as threshold lists running top but you unfortunately make that sacrifice to be more proactive.

    I (as well as Dave) will probably be able to go more in depth with some of the card choices as questions are asked, but the list really is quite tight and well tested. The only real controversy right now is the argument of hymn to tourach over sinkhole. Both cards brutally attack an opponent's resources in different ways, but when it comes down to it it really is a metagame consideration. With more blue based aggro control, hymn is probably going to be stronger. If more multicolored control decks show up, as well as survival, sinkhole is going to probably be a better choice.

    I will say this: I ran into threshold type decks a few times in the swiss and still was able to pull out victories, while drawing and playing sinkholes. It is too early to tell which is better, but that's where the development of the deck is currently.

    At any rate, please discuss. I hope you guys like the deck as Dave and I (as well as the rest of the NoVA legacy players) put a lot of work into testing it.

    P.S. Tombstalker is a very underplayed, amazing threat.
    they haunt minds...

  2. #2
    Are you the real Batman?
    The Rack's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jun 2006
    Location

    San Diego
    Posts

    619

    Re: Team America - Ubg aggro control

    The deck seems almost too simple but I really like it. Congrats on your finish. Why Snuff Out over Smother or Ghastly Demise? Is the free affect worth it. That's my only question.
    This is my Signature

  3. #3
    Member

    Join Date

    Feb 2007
    Location

    San Diego
    Posts

    1,434

    Re: Team America - Ubg aggro control

    Ironically, I thought of this one back when I was in oklahoma jake ...

    Congrats on the fishish!


    Why were you running edict in the board?

    It seems terrible as a board card.
    Originally Posted by Forbiddian

    "Drawing it consistently" is a joke. It doesn't matter whether you have 10 copies or 1 copy. Some games you'll start with it. Some games you'll start without it
    .

    I'm thoroughly convinced that talking to you morons kills braincells. Your parent's should have been sterilized.

  4. #4
    His name is not unknown in these woods.
    nitewolf9's Avatar
    Join Date

    Aug 2006
    Location

    Area 88
    Posts

    1,522

    Re: Team America - Ubg aggro control

    Quote Originally Posted by The Rack View Post
    The deck seems almost too simple but I really like it. Congrats on your finish. Why Snuff Out over Smother or Ghastly Demise? Is the free affect worth it. That's my only question.
    Elegance in simplicity; it is really focused on doing what it's supposed to do. Snuff Out is way better than Smother and Ghastly Demise simply because it is free. In a tempo-driven deck like this where you want mana open for stifle, or to tap out to play sinkhole or ponder on your turn, snuff out is insane. It's even more insane in this deck than it is in Eva Green. Ghastly Demise isn't so hot with tombstalker, or when facing down a dreadnought or huge terravore, and smother costs too much.

    Snuff out also has the added bonus of evading counterbalance. On more than one occasion at the Source tourney I was able to play removal through a counterbalance "lock" and win with tombstalker.
    they haunt minds...

  5. #5
    His name is not unknown in these woods.
    nitewolf9's Avatar
    Join Date

    Aug 2006
    Location

    Area 88
    Posts

    1,522

    Re: Team America - Ubg aggro control

    Quote Originally Posted by thefreakaccident View Post
    Why were you running edict in the board?

    It seems terrible as a board card.
    Diabolic edict is unconditional removal and is fantastic against threshold-type strategies. It comes in when snuff out just won't do, or to augment the removal suite. Edict really was great all day.
    they haunt minds...

  6. #6
    Arbitrary Wielder of Justice

    Join Date

    Oct 2003
    Posts

    3,254

    Re: Team America - Ubg aggro control

    If your opponent is actively playing around Stifle, how good is it?
    When in doubt, mumble.

    When in trouble, delegate.

  7. #7
    Please read my signature.

    Join Date

    Jul 2004
    Posts

    1,548

    Re: Team America - Ubg aggro control

    Quote Originally Posted by frogboy View Post
    If your opponent is actively playing around Stifle, how good is it?
    Then it served a purpose in slowing them down.

    You need the speed to make sure that your plan executes well. If they voluntarily slow themselves down to try to "kill" a theoretical card that you may or may not have, then the card has done it's job without you even needing to play it (obvious simplification, but accomplishes the goal nonetheless).

    I would prefer my opponents trying to play around Stifle rather than walking into it (in some scenarios) simply because I don't always have Stifle. It makes the card a lot better when your opponent fears it.
    For the foreseeable future, expect to see less of me. I've lost my internet connection, and so I'll only be able to get on by siphoning free Wi-Fi from the surrounding areas. Which isn't always consistent.

    Plus, the guy that I used to leech off of has now instituted password protection. This means that I effectively do not have internet at home. :(

  8. #8
    just wants to cuddle
    rsaunder's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jan 2006
    Location

    Geneseo NY
    Posts

    505

    Re: Team America - Ubg aggro control

    Quote Originally Posted by frogboy View Post
    If your opponent is actively playing around Stifle, how good is it?
    In a tempo deck like this, that might even be better then stifling something. Especially since you can just leave U open and bluff the stifle getting the same effect.
    I'm here to kick ass and play card games.

    BZK

  9. #9
    Get Money, Ghost
    Whit3 Ghost's Avatar
    Join Date

    Oct 2005
    Location

    Albany
    Posts

    974

    Re: Team America - Ubg aggro control

    Quote Originally Posted by frogboy View Post
    If your opponent is actively playing around Stifle, how good is it?
    Then they're distorting their strategy to some extent, making your other cards that much better.
    • Tombstalker is a great card, but if you had to play another threat, what would it be?
    • After the source tournament, do you think you would do anything to the list, even just minor tweaks?
    • Is a report in the works?
    • Needs more Extirpate. Totally.
    Edit- wow, I got posted over by 2 people answering the same question. Great minds think alike.
    Team Rehab- We Keep Coming Back For More
    Team Blitzkrieg- Swagga.
    Storm Boards
    Quote Originally Posted by FakeSpam View Post
    Legacy is like Japan. We don't make stuff, we just make stuff better.

  10. #10
    Psilovibin
    Vacrix's Avatar
    Join Date

    Apr 2008
    Posts

    2,189

    Re: Team America - Ubg aggro control

    how does the goblin/elves/zoo matchups look for this? do you just distrupt them early with discard and free kill/countermagic and cantrip into more answers? seems like if your creatures got StP'd while you are trying to counter their shit you would be in some trouble.

    also, how do you deal with blood moon? just counter it? dont you wish you had basics sometimes?

    this deck looks sick though. you just play free shit, and cantrip into more free shit.

    i think that bitterblossum could find a place in this. Its just as dangerous and harder to remove. It is just mediocre vs. counterbalance if you don't protect it when you play it or try to distrupt before it comes down. it would be nice just to run 2 just to increase your threat density.

    also, could mystical tutor find a place in this? tutoring up creature kill in certain matchups seems like it could be very important. you may not always find it by cantriping.

    i also think that hymn is looking stronger. but i dont play the deck, so yeah.

    EDIT:

    btw, remand is also massively underplayed.. its not too expensive either, and it cantrips.



    EDIT #2:
    Yeah i'd love to see a tournament report too and see how this thing plays.

    Start using capitals or start receiving warnings.

    -PR
    Last edited by Peter_Rotten; 10-20-2008 at 10:36 AM.

  11. #11
    Arbitrary Wielder of Justice

    Join Date

    Oct 2003
    Posts

    3,254

    Re: Team America - Ubg aggro control

    It seems like it would be hard to consistently represent Stifle in the 20 land deck with nine fetchlands, particularly when you're playing Thoughtseize, Ponder, and Tarmogoyf. To do so would seem like it slows you down as well, and possibly have some cost associated with Brainstorm.
    When in doubt, mumble.

    When in trouble, delegate.

  12. #12
    Member
    raharu's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jun 2007
    Location

    Scrubington
    Posts

    1,087

    Re: Team America - Ubg aggro control

    I'm aware that it's symmetrical, but have you considered Smallpox in the Hymn/ Sinkhole slots? Maybe another threat, perhaps?
    Team Battletoadz: Fuck the Meta-police?

    If it's all in our heads, it's best that we don't loose them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nihil View Post
    Mother of Runes is a woefully underplayed Tier 1 card.
    Quote Originally Posted by dude 666 View Post
    Power wouldn't lay in the hands of the few if the general population was more educated and actually voted. Why should the government care about you if you don't vote? (Partially why I hate the electoral college and 2-party system)

  13. #13
    His name is not unknown in these woods.
    nitewolf9's Avatar
    Join Date

    Aug 2006
    Location

    Area 88
    Posts

    1,522

    Re: Team America - Ubg aggro control

    Quote Originally Posted by raharu View Post
    I'm aware that it's symmetrical, but have you considered Smallpox in the Hymn/ Sinkhole slots? Maybe another threat, perhaps?
    We tried Quirion Dryad for a bit, but that wasn't too great. You can't afford to lose one of your threats to smallpox, and it hurts you more than it does most decks.
    they haunt minds...

  14. #14
    Member
    raharu's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jun 2007
    Location

    Scrubington
    Posts

    1,087

    Re: Team America - Ubg aggro control

    Quote Originally Posted by nitewolf9 View Post
    We tried Quirion Dryad for a bit, but that wasn't too great. You can't afford to lose one of your threats to smallpox, and it hurts you more than it does most decks.
    Actually, that leads into another suggestion I was going to let gestate, but I'll mention now: What about some sort of creature recursion, such as Volrath's Stronghold in place of the Bayou, adding in more late-game resilience and a bit of inevitability? That, and if I were to suggest another threat wouldn't be Dryad, but either Werebear (which is still larger than most of the format, in case you were wondering) or a utility critter/ something a bit more resilient/ something solid in the late-game (I hate tempo/ fast non-combo decks without a contingency plan). Maybe something like DC (which isn't fitting to the deck's gameplan, much like Bitterblossom, so no) or a singleton Gigapeede and some River Boas. Maybe -4 Sinkhole -1 Bayou, +1 Gigapeede, +1 Volrath's Stronghold, +3 River Boa? It's a bit non-sequitorish with the rest of the deck, though. I'd rather the Volrath's Stronghold and 4 Smallpox. iDunno.
    Team Battletoadz: Fuck the Meta-police?

    If it's all in our heads, it's best that we don't loose them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nihil View Post
    Mother of Runes is a woefully underplayed Tier 1 card.
    Quote Originally Posted by dude 666 View Post
    Power wouldn't lay in the hands of the few if the general population was more educated and actually voted. Why should the government care about you if you don't vote? (Partially why I hate the electoral college and 2-party system)

  15. #15
    Merkwürdigeliebe
    jazzykat's Avatar
    Join Date

    Aug 2006
    Location

    Vienna, AT
    Posts

    917

    Re: Team America - Ubg aggro control

    After playing dreadstall and having daze be relevant so often so late (stifle,wasteland) I can only imagine that sinkhole is a house in here.

    The fact that Tombstalker dodges all commonly played removal but STP is rad and both it and Snuff Out dodge counterbalance.

    With the addition of cantrips, this deck has successfully addressed my largest gripe with Eva Green.

    Furthermore, while the explosiveness of ritual, and the power vs. control of hippie will be missed I always felt that shade was better than nothing but not very good.

    Given the current interest in Adnauseum, the 4 stifles and free counters MD poise it strongly vs. most combo. I'd love to see the metagame breakdown of the Source Tourney but I am interested to see how much aggro was there and with this deck now on the scene how well it will stand up.

    Overall sweet deck and looks like a hoot!

  16. #16
    Member
    Valtrix's Avatar
    Join Date

    May 2008
    Location

    Milwaukee, WI
    Posts

    1,129

    Re: Team America - Ubg aggro control

    Huh, something small I feel like pointing out is the use of nine fetches in order to fuel tombstalker :P

    Otherwise, I don't know. Seems simple yet (fairly) effective. Moon effects hurt you a lot though. In fact, blood moon says lose game and magus of the moon says that you lose without a snuff out. In fact, looking at it, the whole mana-base seems really fragile. 16 color lands and then wasteland with three colors...Seems rough with how many decks run sinkhole/wasteland/stifle, all of which are really going to hurt you. Have you really not been having trouble with that?

  17. #17
    I am the Killer Rabbit!
    DalkonCledwin's Avatar
    Join Date

    Dec 2007
    Location

    Allen, TX
    Posts

    408

    Re: Team America - Ubg aggro control

    I really like the list, and will have to keep an eye out for this thread, and the development of the deck. As I am currently working on building a Red Death budget deck, and am curious about any and all variants on the Suicide decks. I would have to obtain most of all of the cards in this deck list. However if this deck does in fact prove to be a decent contender in the coming year or two, it may be worth getting the cards needed to make this deck, so that I can start playing the list.

    However for now I think I am going to stick with Red Death as a deck to work with. Thank you for sharing "Team America" and congrats on your finish.

    Additionally I agree, this deck would lose so fast to Dragon Stompy the way it is currently posted.... needs some basic, even if it is a basic swamp (the most crucial for this deck is the swamp not the islands) but could include both a swamp, and an island. The list I would run is as follows:

    4 Tombstalker
    4 Tarmogoyf

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    3 Stifle
    4 Force of Will
    4 Daze
    4 Thoughtseize
    4 Snuff Out
    4 Sinkhole

    3 Wasteland
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Flooded Strand
    4 Underground Sea
    2 Tropical Island
    2 Swamp
    1 Island
    1 Forest
    "He's like fire and ice and rage. He's like the night, and the storm in the heart of the sun. He's ancient and forever... He burns at the center of time and he can see the turn of the universe... and... he's wonderful."

  18. #18
    Etherium is limited. Innovation is not.
    Hanni's Avatar
    Join Date

    Aug 2006
    Location

    Columbus, OH
    Posts

    2,620

    Re: Team America - Ubg aggro control

    I played and tested a 3c deck (UBg) similar this for a while, around the time when I was toying around with B/g/w Deadguy Rock, and I agree to the strength of this concept. My list then wasn't exactly the same as this right now, but I agree your deck is really strong.

    What I like most is the synergy of your cards; LD and Daze are very synergistic together, for example. I would not drop the Sinkholes for Hymns out of the maindeck, though I do think additional discard in the sideboard could be a good idea.

    However, I do question the strength of Snuff Out in here. While I agree that some of its usage is very strong, running only 16 black spells and already running CDA in Force of Will seems iffy. I have not tested it, and will not disagree with the choice; I'm merely questioning it.

    Also consider Nimble Mongoose (between the decks 75), since you clearly have the ability to establish Threshold. Not sure if it's necessary, but 3 different threats (and one that is especially nice to the curve) is solid. 1cc 3/3 untargetable continues to be extremely strong in this format, Goyf or not.

    Other than that, it looks really good. I'd personally like to see Pernicious Deed in the sideboard, especially since it's so strong with Tombstalker and answers random problematic decks for you, but that's probably metagame dependant.

    Nice job with your Top 4 finish, btw. Congrats.

    EDIT: On a sidenote:

    Given the current interest in Adnauseum, the 4 stifles and free counters MD poise it strongly vs. most combo. I'd love to see the metagame breakdown of the Source Tourney but I am interested to see how much aggro was there and with this deck now on the scene how well it will stand up.
    Actually, you are right about this and wrong about this at the same time. Stifle is good against Ad Nauseam, but not because Stifle hits storm. Rather, Stifle'ing fetchlands is really strong against B/u/w ANT. However, against a 5c version more in the approach of TES (no fetchlands), Stifle is actually a subpar card against Ad Nauseam. ANT has the resources to be able to either Duress or Chant you before it finally casts Tendrils, so using Stifle to hit the storm triggers is unlikely to happen.

  19. #19
    Arbitrary Wielder of Justice

    Join Date

    Oct 2003
    Posts

    3,254

    Re: Team America - Ubg aggro control

    However, I do question the strength of Snuff Out in here. While I agree that some of its usage is very strong, running only 16 black spells and already running CDA in Force of Will seems iffy. I have not tested it, and will not disagree with the choice; I'm merely questioning it.
    You're aware you don't pitch a black card, right?
    When in doubt, mumble.

    When in trouble, delegate.

  20. #20
    Etherium is limited. Innovation is not.
    Hanni's Avatar
    Join Date

    Aug 2006
    Location

    Columbus, OH
    Posts

    2,620

    Re: Team America - Ubg aggro control

    Wow, I was totally thinking of a different removal spell for some reason. That's what happens when your slightly drunk and post at 2:45 AM.

    At any rate, I disregard my previous statement and completely agree 100% with Snuff Out as the removal of choice for this deck.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)